Helen Steel continues her evidence about her multi-year deceptive relationship with SDS undercover officer John Dyn (cover name Philip "John Barker"), who infiltrated London Greenpeace and later the McLibel campaign. She describes a fabricated arrest that began the relationship, a sustained pattern of "love bombing" and staged personal crises, and how Dyn exploited pillow talk from their relationship to feed information to McDonald's legal team while their group defended the McLibel case. The session closes with Steel's unequivocal answer to the Chairman on whether Dyn felt any genuine affection for her.
00:20:07 Good afternoon everybody. We will continue with the evidence of uh Helen Steel this afternoon. The uh evidence given will be transmitted over the live link but only after a 15minute delay.
00:20:20 link but only after a 15minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 15 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for
00:20:31 reporting. They may not be used for photography or recording. Yes. Thank you, sir. Um, Miss Still, I want to point out at this stage, we are going to explore some very difficult topics this afternoon and I just want to
00:20:43 this afternoon and I just want to emphasize that the purpose of this hearing is to enable you to tell us about what happened. But I want to make it clear that please say only whatever you feel able to say about your
00:20:55 you feel able to say about your experience. I don't want you to feel compelled to say things or reveal things that you don't feel comfortable discussing or talking about. Thank you.
00:21:06 Thank you. A small point, Miss Still. We were talking about um John Dyn's purporting to go on the run. You asked a question in your witness statement about what he
00:21:17 in your witness statement about what he was actually doing over this period of time. Um, we've yet to process the document. We will be publishing it shortly, but we know from having looked at his personal file that on the 24th of
00:21:29 at his personal file that on the 24th of April 1990, he was taking his DI exam. So, his exam to become a detective inspector, right?
00:21:41 Which he failed, by the way. Um,
00:21:56 moving now, Miss Steel, to the 5th of May, 1990. This is the Saturday. You refer in your witness statement to receiving a phone call from someone
00:22:09 receiving a phone call from someone claiming to be dy solicitor. Yes. And I understand from your witness statement, he said that Dines had been arrested.
00:22:16 arrested. Yes.
00:22:16 Yes. And was being held at Paddington Green Police Station. But he said to me, "Don't say anything that could get him in trouble or something like that." Not that I could have done anyway, but um uh and and that
00:22:29 have done anyway, but um uh and and that kind of threw me and I just didn't really ask any questions about what it was about or anything. I understand. So it made you feel constrained about the information you could seek from him.
00:22:40 could seek from him. Um, on that same page, you then say you received a early morning phone call on Sunday the 6th of May. Yes.
00:22:49 Yes. And in this call, you were told that Dyn was going to be released from Paddington Green Police Station. Yes.
00:22:58 Yes. Was it your understanding that that was the solicitor ringing you again or a police officer from that station or were you not given to understand? I'm not sure. I can remember now. And if
00:23:09 I'm not sure. I can remember now. And if I if it's not in my statement, I won't have had a note of it. So I don't know.
00:23:17 Had you had any contact with Dyn by phone or otherwise between the letter of the 30th of April and getting
00:23:28 letter of the 30th of April and getting this call?
00:23:35 Um, yes, he did phone me from time to time
00:23:41 time um and give me an update on his supposed progress. Um, he said he was staying somewhere in the Lake District camping or something like that. And you make the point in your witness
00:23:53 And you make the point in your witness statement that while he could contact you, you could never contact him directly. That's right. Yeah. It's before the days of mobile phones and um yeah, I don't think I ever had a
00:24:05 and um yeah, I don't think I ever had a phone number for him.
00:24:09 What was your emotional response to getting this phone call about well his arrest and coming to collect him?
00:24:19 him? I just sort of thought, well, I better go and um you know, support him.
00:24:26 Can you tell us what happened when you went to the police station on the 6th of May?
00:24:31 May? Um, pretty much as I arrived, he emerged from the police station, uh, coming out the doors clutching a property bag with a MPS property tag on
00:24:43 property bag with a MPS property tag on it.
00:24:44 it. I'd like to bring that up, please. That is UCPI
00:24:49 is UCPI 39877.
00:25:04 Is this the tag that you're referring to?
00:25:07 to? Um, we can see just there's the date, the 25th.
00:25:11 the 25th. Needs to be shrunk a little bit. Yeah, it says the sorry, the second of the fifth 90.
00:25:17 fifth 90. Yes.
00:25:18 Yes. Um, there's his cover name, PJ Barker. Officers in the case, we notice it says DCI Groy. We believe that's DCI Gray, who was Dyn's DCI at the time.
00:25:31 who was Dyn's DCI at the time. Oh, okay.
00:25:32 Oh, okay. Um, DCI Gray is deceased, so we can't ask him about this, but that's our understanding. Um,
00:25:43 Um, but in any event, you were given a very clear impression that he had been arrested. He'd been reminded. Yes. Well, not reminded. He hadn't been
00:25:54 Yes. Well, not reminded. He hadn't been to court. He was No, I understand. And he hadn't been charged either, but he was I think he had to answer bail at some point. I can't I can't quite remember, but I think he had to answer
00:26:05 remember, but I think he had to answer bail at some point. We can take that down now. Thank you. When you
00:26:11 When you left the police station with him, what did he tell you about what had happened? He he didn't really he didn't re he was in on reflection, he was actually quite
00:26:22 in on reflection, he was actually quite evasive, right? But at the time, I just thought he was exhausted after having spent a few nights in the cells and he just wanted a bit of space and so I didn't kind of
00:26:33 bit of space and so I didn't kind of press him for details. I just sort of felt well you know he'll talk about it when he's
00:26:38 when he's ready to talk about it sort of
00:26:43 and again I'm sorry if this is an obvious question but now that you know that this was a fabrication how do you feel about having been asked to go there the phone call from the solicitor and adverted
00:26:55 call from the solicitor and adverted commas and the performance as it were that was put on for you?
00:27:04 um kind of a mixture of anger and disbelief and uh
00:27:14 uh the acknowledgement that his supervisors were in on it as well is quite something. Um
00:27:23 because that's not something I knew before now. I dciroy meant absolutely nothing to me. Um,
00:27:33 I don't know. I can't. Um, don't worry. Don't worry. We'll move on just with events over the next couple of days.
00:27:43 So, you collected him from the police station and I understand from your witness statement that you then went back to Lynen Road. Is that correct? Yes.
00:27:52 Yes. And when you were in Lynen Road, you and the other occupants of Lynen Road and John Dy sat in the garden. Yeah, it was a nice day and we just sat in the garden chatting and
00:28:04 in the garden chatting and um
00:28:06 um Yeah. And I also understand that he then left with Norman Blair to go go back and collect his car. Yes.
00:28:15 Yes. From where he said I think Norman came around to pick him up. I guess he probably must have phoned Norman or something. I sure
00:28:21 sure can't quite remember or maybe you might have phoned from my house. But in any event, Norman did a helpful thing. He went off with John D to pick up his car. Yes.
00:28:31 Yes. From the place he was arrested. He said he was arrested. Um
00:28:38 Um and I understand that the occupants of Lynen Road also involved children. They did. Yeah. There were they were young children at that time.
00:28:49 young children at that time. And did Dines generally speaking did he interact with the children when he was at Lon Road? Yeah, he did. I mean, he babysat with me on occasions for for them. So
00:29:00 on occasions for for them. So with you, he didn't babysit for them on his own.
00:29:02 his own. I don't think so. But on this occasion, you were sitting in the garden. You were chatting. The children were there. Yeah.
00:29:14 He's gone off with Norman to pick up his car.
00:29:18 car. And then he came back again with Norman. Is that correct?
00:29:24 How was he presenting at this time? Still, did he seem fairly upbeat, withdrawn? He seemed okay, but um I know after a
00:29:35 He seemed okay, but um I know after a little while I thought that maybe he was tired. Um, and so I ended up because living in a house full of people and
00:29:46 living in a house full of people and children
00:29:46 children can get quite noisy and if you've just had an experience that was a bit exhausting, noise can be a bit overwhelming. So, um, I thought I'd invite him to my room
00:29:57 I thought I'd invite him to my room um, which was like the only other space I had available um, that was kind of quieter.
00:30:04 quieter. Yeah. So you were sensitive to what he'd been through and you wanted to accommodate that, give him some peace and quiet. What happened when you went up to your room? Did you continue chatting?
00:30:16 room? Did you continue chatting? Yeah, we were chatting for a while and then um I was sitting on a cushion uh on the floor and he was sitting on my bed. Um and after a while he lay down
00:30:29 bed. Um and after a while he lay down and then at some point I thought he was asleep.
00:30:34 asleep. Uh, and
00:30:36 Uh, and I didn't feel like I could disturb him because of his ordeal. Yeah.
00:30:43 Yeah. And so I ended up getting into bed beside him. And was this a single bed? It was a single bed. Yeah.
00:30:54 Um, did you fall asleep next to him? Yes.
00:30:59 Yes. If you don't feel comfortable asking this, please do not worry. But can I ask you what happened over the course of that night? Um,
00:31:08 Um, I know that at some point, we didn't have sex that night, but I know that at some point, um, we were kind of kissing and cuddling.
00:31:19 and cuddling. And
00:31:21 And is it right to say that you consented to that because you believed him to be John Barker?
00:31:27 Barker? Yes. I think there was probably an element of I also wasn't confident enough to say no. But he was a he was a friend as well. I I I imagine that I had
00:31:40 friend as well. I I I imagine that I had uh mixed feelings about about it. And at that time you were 24. Yes.
00:31:48 Yes. And you understood him to be 29? Yes.
00:31:51 Yes. But in fact he was 34. Yes.
00:31:55 Yes. And of course he was married, but he didn't know that at the time. No.
00:32:00 No. Um, I'd like to bring up an exhibit, please. It's UCPI 39789.
00:32:09 Miss Still, you say this is dated 1991 sometime.
00:32:15 Um, page one, sorry, the next page from that.
00:32:20 that. It's because it's got the Clyde Circus address and we lived there in 1991. I understand. Yes, it's an undated letter. We can say that. But yes, that's very helpful. Um, top of page one, it reads, "Dear Helen,
00:32:32 top of page one, it reads, "Dear Helen, thanks for another nice day. It was good trying to remember our early days together." And yes, I think magical is about right. It describes my feelings pretty accurately. So, in this letter,
00:32:44 pretty accurately. So, in this letter, he's setting out some happy, cherished memories that you have. Um, if we go to the bottom of page one, he says, uh, "Yes, I'm fatalistic about
00:32:55 "Yes, I'm fatalistic about relationships." So, tar for that. And no, he says, "Tar for not booting me out of your room on the 6th of May. Given what I was doing, going through at the time, I sort of felt weak about falling
00:33:08 time, I sort of felt weak about falling asleep on your bed that afternoon evening. I also, if we could just go over the page, please.
00:33:18 I also knew, however, that I could depend on you regardless of whether or not we would have shared some of our lives together later on. So, I guess I must have felt pretty secure with you.
00:33:29 must have felt pretty secure with you. You won't ever know what you did for me during April and May last year, just being Helen, I suppose. Tar, thanks Tar. Again, I love you so much.
00:33:41 So, I understand that's a reference to the events that you've described for us.
00:33:52 Now, I understand from your witness statement, please correct me if I'm wrong, but that the first time you had sex with John Dyn was the weekend of the 12th, 13th of May. Is that accurate?
00:34:09 That's about a week later. Yeah.
00:34:10 Yeah. Uh, yeah. Sorry. Don't worry at all. Yeah. You refer you put it in the context of you he drove you to Winkwell for a walk right
00:34:19 right along a canal. Okay then. Yes. Um and again if I understand correctly he instigated that. He invited me to go for go out for a
00:34:31 He invited me to go for go out for a trip with him. Yeah.
00:34:36 You also say in your witness statement though that even though that was the first time you had sex with him, you both considered the 6th of May to be the start of your relationship.
00:34:47 start of your relationship. Yes.
00:34:49 Yes. I'd like to bring up please UCPI 39790.
00:34:57 This is a another dynated the 7th of May 1990. If we look at page two, this is 91. Sorry, 91. Apologies of course 1991 and we can see on page two
00:35:11 1991 and we can see on page two the beginning of the letter hello love a year and a day on. So I'm just pointing that out because that confirms what you said that here he is acknowledging yes that that's that's when we thought
00:35:23 yes that that's that's when we thought the relationship started. Yes.
00:35:28 And in the second paragraph so many magic memories. I remember walking along the canal path near Burkhamstead, hugging each other as we walked. I remember I could never get comfortable.
00:35:39 remember I could never get comfortable. My arm was skew whiff. Your jacket was pushed up your back. But I can also remember thinking that I wouldn't let go of you apart from getting sunburnt at Camber Sand. So this reference to the
00:35:51 Camber Sand. So this reference to the canal path near Burkhamstead. Is that the canal walk on Winkwell? Yeah. The following week. Yeah.
00:36:00 Thank you. We can take that down.
00:36:08 You have told us how when he first asked you out in October 89, you rejected him. Had your feelings significantly changed
00:36:20 Had your feelings significantly changed by this stage?
00:36:25 I think yes in the sense that I felt I don't know I think I felt I had some sort of sense of responsibility to
00:36:38 some sort of sense of responsibility to and also if I understand your evidence correctly up until this point this is a man who is presenting as someone who has been through a lot. Yes.
00:36:46 Yes. So he's lost two parents. Yes.
00:36:49 Yes. He's been arrested. He's been held in Paddington Green Police Station. Yeah. And it Yeah. I don't know. I did don't
00:37:00 don't And he knows you're an empathetic person.
00:37:06 You also point out in your witness statement, Miss Still, that you think you were, you didn't realize this at the time, but looking back, you think you were quite vulnerable to his
00:37:19 were quite vulnerable to his manipulation? Are you comfortable saying why you think you were vulnerable? Just some You don't have to go through every single reason, but um identifying
00:37:41 I mean, experiences uh
00:37:51 I think I've set it out in my statement and I think um No, I understand. I mean, in any event, you were very young. Yeah, I was young. Um I had experienced
00:38:03 Yeah, I was young. Um I had experienced um bullying and sexual assault and that had kind of affected my self-esteem and my confidence as well in terms of particularly in terms of I
00:38:16 terms of particularly in terms of I think relationships. So
00:38:22 Dyn statement refers to you being very confident and very strong minded. But I'd like to bring up something to contrast with that. Yeah. When he acknowledges that.
00:38:33 Yeah. When he acknowledges that. Yeah.
00:38:34 Yeah. So, if we could bring up please UCPI 39797.
00:38:42 And this is a letter he wrote to you. Well, it's dated the 27th of August 1991.
00:38:53 It's page one about 2/3 down.
00:39:02 And I'm not going to bring it up, but the w the place in his witness statement where he says that you were very strong-minded and confident and vocal is at paragraph 108. But just by way of contrast,
00:39:14 contrast, if we could bring this up
00:39:28 Well, I'll read out the relevant extract where he says this about you. Yep. You're indecisive, but I figure no right to expect it or it to work really that a
00:39:39 to expect it or it to work really that a bit of each rubs off on the other. And you might just get a bit more confident in yourself. If you saw me just going for it, that's a bit unclear. He says that I reckon it's just a lack of confidence, shyness, and by the time
00:39:51 confidence, shyness, and by the time you're as crusty as me, you'll be just as upfront. Yeah.
00:39:56 Yeah. So that shows that he was aware actually and this was written in 1991 that you were not a confident person and that you were shy.
00:40:03 were shy. That's right. Was that something you talked to him about or just something he observed? Um
00:40:11 Um I think it's what he observed. Um but we may have spoken about it that that letters at the time when he kind of first started disappearing. and
00:40:24 first started disappearing. and so we kind of I don't know discussed um feelings about that at the time. Um
00:40:35 Um I'd like to look now at some of the references to your youth still in the correspondence. Yeah.
00:40:42 Yeah. Um if we could bring up please UCPI. Oh no, actually don't worry about that. If we I'll bring up some of his letters. So, if we could bring up 39784.
00:40:58 This is a fake card from his ex, who he told you was his ex, Debbie, but was in fact his at that time wife.
00:41:09 at that time wife. Yes.
00:41:09 Yes. So, I understand that what he would do is get his wife and her mother-in-law to write letters and then send them. He he
00:41:20 he so
00:41:22 so uh
00:41:25 uh his ex-wife told me that um
00:41:32 um that he would write a letter in draft form, give it to them and ask them to put it in their own handwriting and send it back.
00:41:48 If we could go to the next page of that please
00:41:57 on the yeah uh sorry page after that and then the left hand side halfway down she writes she's talking about Aunt Dorothy she's saying you have quite an
00:42:09 Dorothy she's saying you have quite an appreciation society here all two of us meaning her pretending to be Barker's ex and Aunt Dorothy. She said something about getting a dirty phone call from you late one night and I used to think
00:42:21 you late one night and I used to think you were pretty sound for a guy and I didn't know you were into older women either. From what I hear though, I gather you really prefer younger ones. So, you say that that's a reference to
00:42:35 So, you say that that's a reference to his having told this person allegedly that he's got a younger girlfriend. Yes.
00:42:42 Yes. Um, just for clarity, it's unrelated to that, but did he tell you that Aunt Dorothy was a blood relative or just a friend that he called aunt? I
00:42:53 I didn't I was never sure to be honest. He just called her Aunt Dorothy. And um I didn't I didn't actually question it at all.
00:43:03 at all. Sure. And it was only at the point when I was searching for him that I realized that I didn't know whether it was a direct blood relative or whether it was just
00:43:14 blood relative or whether it was just someone called aunt through familiarity. Sure.
00:43:18 Sure. Um if we could bring up we can take that down please and bring up another letter from Dyn. This is 39 UCPI 39786.
00:43:32 This is a letter dated the 27th of March, 1991.
00:43:39 And it reads, "Thanks for a lovely letter. I feel oh so guilty fratonizing with a young person. I really do feel ancient now. Your note reader, I can't
00:43:50 ancient now. Your note reader, I can't read that word. Baffles me still. I am a bit thick, but I'll try again tomorrow morning." His reference to that. Um, again, he's referring here to your youth.
00:44:01 youth. Um, I'd just like to bring up one more example, please, which is UCPI 39789.
00:44:13 Sorry, this is the undated letter, but the one we know is from 1991. Second paragraph.
00:44:21 Now he's started the letter off reliving some memories and then he says these days this is second paragraph these days might not be quite so heady
00:44:32 these days might not be quite so heady but I still dot dot dot you you could put in any of about 10 words in there sometimes I think I could spend every minute of every day with you. I guess that means I'm still infatuated with you
00:44:43 that means I'm still infatuated with you even though I bugger off to building sites all over the country and leave you on your lonesome. It's nice coming back though, seeing your lovely face, but you did look so young. I just guess that
00:44:55 did look so young. I just guess that makes me doubly lucky. You can take that down, please. Um, you've also exhibited, well, we'll bring this up for completeness. It's
00:45:06 bring this up for completeness. It's 39793.
00:45:10 That's UCPI.
00:45:20 So, this is, if I understand correctly, this is some wrapping paper from a present he gave you. And we can see that he's crossed out happy 16th and put 26th
00:45:32 he's crossed out happy 16th and put 26th because this was for your 26th birthday. Yeah.
00:45:35 Yeah. Um, so we can take that down. Thank you. This gives the impression that he
00:45:43 for whatever reason raised the fact of your relative youth. Yeah. It was something he used to comment on frequently. Did he in person as well? Yes. Yes.
00:45:55 Yes. Yes. What did you make? Sorry. It was something he would frequently comment on when we woke up together, having slept together for the night. um
00:46:08 having slept together for the night. um he would comment on my how young I looked
00:46:11 looked and that was actually also when he generally initiated sex with me.
00:46:18 At the time obviously you thought he was only 5 years yes
00:46:22 yes older than you. What did you make of it at the time?
00:46:28 I just thought it was a bit jokey but didn't really make anything of it. Um, I
00:46:39 I know because I had previously turned down relationships with men who were 10 years older than me. Yeah.
00:46:47 Yeah. That had I known his real age, I would not have entered a relationship with him because I it felt like the age gap and experience life experience gap was too
00:46:58 experience life experience gap was too was kind of too big at that point in my life anyway. Yeah.
00:47:07 Looking back now knowing that he was in fact 10 years older than you, you say in your witness statement you feel that he was fetishizing your youth. Is that fair to say?
00:47:21 Is that fair to say? I think he was enjoying
00:47:25 enjoying sexually exploiting me and the fact that I was young. Yeah.
00:47:40 In your witness statement, you say that very quickly within a couple of weeks of the sexual relationship beginning that he declared his love for you. Yes.
00:47:52 Yes. In um Deep Deception, you say that the first time he did this was on a bus. Yeah.
00:48:00 What was your reaction then when he announced his love? I was kind of surprised. Um, but it also made me feel good about
00:48:11 but it also made me feel good about myself.
00:48:12 myself. Um,
00:48:13 Um, that this was someone who I don't know liked me and had strong feelings for me. Yeah.
00:48:21 Yeah. When he first declared his love for you, did you feel you were in love with him at that stage? Not immediately. No. Um, for me, um,
00:48:33 Not immediately. No. Um, for me, um, I think
00:48:35 I think well, I I remember that the the the holiday in Barra was particularly um
00:48:43 um kind of it was just seemed so sort of idilic and blissful and, you know, he really seemed to love and care about me. And
00:48:50 And yeah,
00:48:51 yeah, um
00:48:55 after that it it felt like, you know, this was like a much more serious relationship than I'd had with anyone previously. We'll look at some of your photographs
00:49:06 We'll look at some of your photographs from that holiday in a short while.
00:49:15 In your witness statement, you comment on the fact that one of the things you liked about him and indeed came to love about him was that he was interested in your life, but
00:49:26 that he was interested in your life, but also that you seem to share an enthusiasm for the same sorts of activities. Yeah. Um I mean, I like walking in the countryside. I like, you know, beautiful
00:49:38 countryside. I like, you know, beautiful places. Um and he seemed to be keen to take me to, you know, Yeah.
00:49:44 Yeah. beautiful places. Yeah. So, it seemed you had lots in common.
00:49:48 common. Yeah. And Yeah. I mean, he took me to an animal sanctuary one time and I, you know, I liked animals as well. So, uh,
00:49:58 uh, and you also say that he gave every impression of being very open and very comfortable with expressing his feelings.
00:50:06 feelings. Yeah. Well, I mean, you can see it in the letters that he um talks all the time about his feelings for me, and I don't think I'd ever experienced anything quite like that before.
00:50:18 anything quite like that before. Um
00:50:19 Um and it had an impact on me. I I felt, you know, here was someone who genuinely loved and cared about me.
00:50:31 So, in many ways, he's presenting almost as the ideal man. Yeah.
00:50:38 You say also that in the early stage of the relationship, he seemed to feel more strongly about you than you did about him.
00:50:45 him. Yeah, definitely. But now you recognize that as love bombing. Well, when I looked back through the letters and read them all again knowing
00:50:57 letters and read them all again knowing what who he really was, Yeah.
00:51:02 Yeah. it Yeah. It was just so striking that how much the extent that he's gone to to shower me shower me with love and um affection and
00:51:16 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's striking from the letters just reading it as a third party. Looking now at the amount of time you spent together as a couple. Um, in your
00:51:28 spent together as a couple. Um, in your witness statement, you helpfully separate these into different periods of time according to where you were living. So, the first period of time you identify as May to June
00:51:39 identify as May to June 1990 in Lynen Road. And you say in your witness statement that during these months you spent more time together alone as a couple and obviously once the relationship
00:51:50 and obviously once the relationship became sexual, you spent more time alone together.
00:51:53 together. Yeah.
00:51:55 Yeah. How much time together were you spending roughly in this period? Every night, most nights? No, I think in the first period he would generally come around. I mean, he
00:52:08 generally come around. I mean, he probably come back to my house um after London Greenpeace meetings and then probably at the weekend as well. So, probably two or three nights a week. Okay.
00:52:18 Okay. And I understand and maybe for for a day at the weekend as well. So, and at this stage, I think I understand from your witness statement, you again, you've very carefully dissected it, that
00:52:29 you've very carefully dissected it, that he was living in the Castlewood Road address.
00:52:32 address. Yeah, I don't I don't remember visiting his place during that period. Um, I just I the only time I remember going to Castlewood Road is is the time
00:52:44 going to Castlewood Road is is the time that I helped him move in. Right. So, it follows from that that when you did spend time together as a couple, it was always at Lynen Road. Yes.
00:52:55 Just looking at some of the activities that you undertook together at this time just to give a flavor of the relationship. You set these out in your witness statement of paragraphs 228 to 230. You say on uh Monday the 7th of May
00:53:08 230. You say on uh Monday the 7th of May 1990 you spent the day at Alexandra Palace Park. On Sunday the 13th of May 1990 at his suggestion he drove you to Winkwell. We've referred to that to the canal
00:53:19 We've referred to that to the canal walk.
00:53:20 walk. Yes.
00:53:21 Yes. Uh, Tuesday the 15th of May, you say that you work together at your aotment and I understand you kept a diary and the reason you're able to
00:53:33 the reason you're able to recall this is because is this is in my diary? Yes. Yeah.
00:53:38 Yeah. Or it or it's from photographs where I've got the date on them or
00:53:44 you've provided a photograph of him at your your a lotment. I don't think we need to bring that up. But for reference, that's 39872.
00:53:57 I'm sorry again. I'm sorry to ask this is a personal question, but once your sexual relationship began, did you have sex every time when you saw him? Um,
00:54:11 well, every night when I saw him. Yeah. I don't Yeah. When you were alone together?
00:54:15 together? Yeah.
00:54:19 Who instigated the sex? In general, it would be him.
00:54:27 Did you use contraception? So, for the first part of the relationship, yes, we did. Um then after we started talking about
00:54:40 Um then after we started talking about living together for the rest of our lives and he initiated conversations about having children um
00:54:49 um we didn't always use contraception. I had read about the um sorry my mind's gone blank.
00:55:00 sorry my mind's gone blank. The rhythm method the rhythm method um and that you know in theory you can't get pregnant on uh certain
00:55:12 uh certain phases of your cycle and so sometimes we would have sex without contraception. Okay. Again we'll look at that again when we come to the later stages of the
00:55:23 when we come to the later stages of the relationship but thank you and again I'm sorry to ask this question. Did he provide the condoms on? Um, yes.
00:55:36 Now, there was a reference to this in one of his letters, which we'll look at, but also you site from your diary, I think, that on the 20th of May 1990, he drove you to Campber Sands.
00:55:48 drove you to Campber Sands. Yes.
00:55:49 Yes. And you say that he drove you back and you slept together in your bed that night.
00:55:55 night. Yes.
00:55:56 Yes. Um, I just like to bring it up again. We've looked at this before, but it's a different section. So, UCPI 39790. This is the letter dated the 7th of May,
00:56:08 This is the letter dated the 7th of May, 1991.
00:56:11 Page two, please. Second paragraph. This is where he's setting out happy memories.
00:56:19 Uh, he refers to that walk by the Winkwell Canal. Then he says, "Apart from getting sunburnt at Campber Sands and getting sand in some funny places, I remember arriving back through Hackne on
00:56:31 remember arriving back through Hackne on the way home and I put Van Morrison on. I deliberately played the song which went,"Take away my sadness, fill my heart with gladness, ease my troubles, that's what you do." Well, you did all
00:56:42 that's what you do." Well, you did all those things in the week before we got together. But I was sure that at the time you thought Van was rubbish, and that the song was even worse. There I was some inadequate romantic with this hardcore feminist who couldn't be
00:56:53 hardcore feminist who couldn't be reached. How wrong can you be? So
00:56:58 So that reference to Campans and that trip is
00:57:03 is the one you and his explicit reference to basically manipulating me into
00:57:11 into having feelings for him. Yeah.
00:57:16 and acknowledging there that you did have feelings when he says how wrong can you be.
00:57:21 you be. Yeah, it's true. That he knew you felt strongly about him.
00:57:26 him. Yeah.
00:57:29 Also, he's portraying himself here as a romantic.
00:57:34 romantic. Was that something at the time you believed him to be? Uh,
00:57:41 I'm not sure I've thought about it in those terms, but no, he definitely seemed like, you know, he was affectionate and seemed to care about me and seemed to care about our
00:57:54 about me and seemed to care about our relationship as well.
00:57:58 I'd just like to explore now the discreet issue of the stolen car, right? still um you say this in your witness statement and it links to this trip to Campbas. You say the following morning after
00:58:10 You say the following morning after Campbasan, so that would be the 21st of May 1990.
00:58:15 May 1990. You say, "We discovered that Dyn's car had been stolen from outside my house." He reported it stolen to the police. The next day, the police rang to say it
00:58:26 The next day, the police rang to say it had been found in the woods near Broxbourne near Hertfordshire. So, we caught the train to Brock, then had a long walk to where the car had been reported as abandoned,
00:58:37 been reported as abandoned, and then I understand that you thought you'd be able to drive it away. Yeah, we got there and we thought we'd be able to drive it back, but in fact, the wheels had been stolen and so
00:58:49 the wheels had been stolen and so we couldn't take it back. Yeah. Um I remember that his what I thought was his favorite blue checked um shirt over shirt
00:59:01 um shirt over shirt um was in the back of the vehicle and I said to him, "Well, don't leave that there cuz you you know your favorite jacket." Um and he and he took it. Um,
00:59:13 jacket." Um and he and he took it. Um, and then the next day, uh, because the wheels had been stolen, Norman drove us, all three of us, back to the car,
00:59:24 all three of us, back to the car, stopping at a garage on the way to buy four wheels. Yeah.
00:59:27 Yeah. Um, but when we got back to the car, it had been burnt out. Right.
00:59:34 Right. Um, yeah. And the jacket you refer to, we've seen that in a number of the photographs, is checked. Yes,
00:59:39 Yes, that's the one. I think it also appears in the trade craft manual about the benefits of wearing a check shirt. I don't quite know why, but um it does get a mention.
00:59:50 a mention. Um
00:59:55 how did he react when his car was stolen? Like did he seem horrified or Not really. I don't think so. I don't I mean yeah I don't remember
01:00:07 I don't I mean yeah I don't remember anything kind of um extreme emotion about it very upset. You say he reported it to the police. Did he make that call in front of you or was that just something he told you that he'd done?
01:00:21 I can't remember but I think I would have assumed that as well from the fact that we got the call the next day to say that they'd found the vehicle. Yeah. Um, again, this is another example
01:00:32 Yeah. Um, again, this is another example of you and Norman indeed putting yourselves out and being very kind. He's yet again in a difficult position. Um, you say in deep deception that this
01:00:46 Um, you say in deep deception that this made you feel very sorry for him. Yeah.
01:00:49 Yeah. It just felt like he was having like a real run of bad luck. Yeah.
01:00:55 Yeah. Now I just want to because you
01:01:00 have again very helpfully chronicled what happened and the dates that this happened. I just want to look at some of the SDS documents because as you point out in your witness statement there's a striking lack of documentation around
01:01:12 striking lack of documentation around any theft of a vehicle of John Dyn but there is some I think relevant documentation relating to his vehicles. Um, John Dyn does say in his witness
01:01:23 Um, John Dyn does say in his witness statement, so he says it at paragraph 120, and he says that he had a number of different vehicles throughout his deployment, and he says that he does recall having his car stolen.
01:01:38 Um, now you also say in your witness statement that on the 19th of March 1990, according to your diary, so this is moving back a
01:01:49 your diary, so this is moving back a couple of months, that after you an incident whereby you driven Dyn from the pub and been given a producer,
01:01:58 producer, the day after Well, D so, so we went I went to the pub with Dyn and Norman. Yeah.
01:02:03 Yeah. And Dyn drove us there. Yeah. but was then drinking and he then asked me to drive his car for him because he said he'd drunk too much. Right.
01:02:14 Right. So I said, "Okay." Because I was drinking orange juice. Yeah.
01:02:17 Yeah. Um so I said, "Okay, well I'll drive I'll drive you back to your place. That's fine." Um and then we got back to his road and there was it's like a back street and
01:02:28 there was it's like a back street and there was like a police stop. Yeah.
01:02:31 Yeah. And they gave me a producer. Um, and after all this, I was just like, well, that was quite obviously set up, right,
01:02:42 that was quite obviously set up, right, for some reason. Yeah.
01:02:43 Yeah. Um, cuz I hadn't driven his vehicle before.
01:02:45 before. Yeah.
01:02:46 Yeah. Uh, and I don't think I drove his vehicle any other time either. Um, there's I'm not going to take us through it now. There's some evidence. So, the the license plate number on that
01:02:57 the license plate number on that producer, there is a record in a dime report of that being Norman Blair's car. But we'll I'll park that for the time being. No pun intended. Um but if we go just back to this issue of Dyn's stolen
01:03:09 just back to this issue of Dyn's stolen car, but we can return to that. Okay.
01:03:12 Okay. Um
01:03:14 Um your diary records that on the 19th of March 1990, Dyn had a new car. And so that was the car that was then stolen from outside your house overnight when you went to Campands and
01:03:25 when you went to Campands and afterwards. Um just bringing up the STS annual report. This is from Oh no, sorry. This isn't the annual report. This is just an SDS document which is MPS0731781
01:03:40 dated the 12th of July 1989.
01:03:47 This refers to Dyn's first what I understand to be his first cover vehicle.
01:03:54 vehicle. And we can see in paragraph one that on the 12th of July 1989 at 2 p.m. his Ford Transit Minibus was parked on Caledonian Road.
01:04:05 Caledonian Road. So obviously that's where the London Greenpeace meetings were held. Um
01:04:13 Um so he says where it's parked. If we just go to the next paragraph, on returning to the vehicle, I found uniform police in attendance reporting details of a collision apparently caused when a cult gallant car collided with it. And we
01:04:26 gallant car collided with it. And we understand we can take that down now. It looks from that that reporting that that car was then a writeoff and then he didn't have a vehicle which is why he rented that van to take you on the grass shoot.
01:04:37 the grass shoot. Right.
01:04:38 Right. Um but then we can see from the annual report from 89 to 90 that he per there's a new car purchased.
01:04:49 that he per there's a new car purchased. I don't think we need to bring it up but I'll bring the reference. It's MPS 0730905
01:04:54 0730905 page 26. There's a new vehicle purchased on the 17th of March 1990 for £2950. So that would seem to be the car that
01:05:05 So that would seem to be the car that would align with what you say about his turning up in a new car on the 19th of March.
01:05:13 You then give it evidence the car was stolen from outside your address and obviously that the SDS know that that's your address. Stolen from overnight between the 20th and the 21st of May
01:05:25 between the 20th and the 21st of May 1990.
01:05:28 1990. If we just look at the annual report for 1990 to 1991, I will bring this up. This is MPS0728958
01:05:39 page 24. This is the section of the annual report. So they talk about vehicles. Uh the VRNs are redacted. But we can see in
01:05:50 the VRNs are redacted. But we can see in the section the bottom half of the page where it says vehicles disposed of during the period. We can tell from the purchase date because there it is. The purchase date is there. It's the second one down 17th of the 3rd 90. It's
01:06:02 one down 17th of the 3rd 90. It's redacted how it was disposed disposed of. But in any event, it was disposed of in that financial year. So there's no record of
01:06:13 there's no record of no of how or why how or
01:06:17 how or um
01:06:18 um there's no documents relating to it. Uh it's obviously quite anomalous that a car purchased in March 1990 is being disposed of within such a short period
01:06:31 disposed of within such a short period of time. Um and that there's no records of it as well.
01:06:35 well. Yeah. So that's a question for the managers at the time about any recollection. We have asked some of the managers from the T2 period whether or not they recall anything to do with this
01:06:46 not they recall anything to do with this because obviously you make the point that the car was stolen from outside of your address. Yes. So if they were paying any attention, they ought to have been asking him why he was staying at my home
01:06:58 asking him why he was staying at my home overnight. Yeah.
01:07:02 Yeah. Um,
01:07:05 looking at some other incidents from this period, the summer of 1990, um, your witness statement, you say that on the 8th of June 1990, he asked you to
01:07:17 on the 8th of June 1990, he asked you to go with him to his solicitor's office to Victoria to collect his passport. Yes.
01:07:23 Yes. What reason did he give? He told me that um his passport had been confiscated when he was arrested and that they had somehow lost it and so they were going
01:07:35 somehow lost it and so they were going to issue a replacement passport. Okay.
01:07:38 Okay. But he had to go to the solicitors to pick it up. And did you meet this solicitor? Did you go inside the offices? I went inside the reception area. Yeah. Um I know that it was
01:07:52 Um I know that it was quite a large reception and it was much much
01:07:55 much posher or fancier than any of the solicitors offices that I'd ever been to before. Um, and I remember that I asked him about
01:08:06 and I remember that I asked him about why he'd used those solicitors rather than Burnbergs or Bindman's or any of the solicitors that um protesters usually used. And he said something to the effect of
01:08:18 And he said something to the effect of um or he he was given the number by a friend at work or something like that. And did he show you the passport once? Yes. Um, when he'd got it, uh, I
01:08:29 Yes. Um, when he'd got it, uh, I remember him showing it to me on the tube on the way back and we were just like, I don't know, as you as you do, laughing about the photograph and, uh, that sort of thing. Yeah. And it gave the details
01:08:42 Yeah. And it gave the details of Philip John Barker. Yes. Derby of January. Derby. Yes. 1960 in Derby. Yeah. Relating to the point you made earlier, the holiday in Barer. Now, so this took
01:08:53 the holiday in Barer. Now, so this took place that summer, the 11th to the 23rd of June, 1990. Who instigated that holiday? Dimes.
01:09:05 You say in your witness statement that, and you have made the point in your oral evidence that he instigated a lot of the holidays that you had. Yeah. Together.
01:09:13 Together. Um,
01:09:15 Um, I didn't actually I don't think I instigated any of the holidays. I didn't really have I don't know the confidence or
01:09:23 or Yeah.
01:09:25 Yeah. Yeah, I understand that. Um, if we could bring up this is just a photo just of a scene in Barra. So, this is UCPI 39859.
01:09:44 Um, the next page, please.
01:09:52 I think this is a postcard. That's the postcard that we sent to um a friend. Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:59 Yeah. Um so see how idilically beautiful it is. I mean it's extraordinary. Um
01:10:05 Um we might return to that postcard but for the timing if you take that down if we could bring up UCPI 39860.
01:10:17 Now, there's a number of photographs here. If I'll just go through them all, um, because they're very illuminating. So, obviously, I I understand you took most of these photographs. Is that right?
01:10:28 right? I was quite a keen photographer. Well, they're lovely photographs. I mean, say for subject matter and some of them. Um, if we could uh just move through because I think there's a
01:10:39 through because I think there's a number. Yeah. That this is the famous picture because it's in deep deception. Famous. sorry isn't quite the right word, but it's it's in deep deception.
01:10:50 it's in deep deception. Yeah.
01:10:50 Yeah. And
01:10:51 And you point out and it is very true that you look incredibly young. Yeah. I It was really only looking at
01:11:02 Yeah. I It was really only looking at it, you know, after I knew he was that I can and also after I'm old now I'm older.
01:11:08 older. Yeah.
01:11:08 Yeah. That I can see how much younger than him I look.
01:11:12 I look. Yeah.
01:11:12 Yeah. Yeah. And he does look considerably more weathered. Yes.
01:11:18 Yes. Than you.
01:11:19 Than you. Yes.
01:11:20 Yes. Um if we can move on just run through them all. So there's another one of dines.
01:11:26 dines. Is that it? Okay. So that gives a sense of the beauty of the place and
01:11:36 place and just the pleasant activities. Um, there's another one I'd like to bring up. I think it's UCPI 39. Oh, no. Okay.
01:11:47 up. I think it's UCPI 39. Oh, no. Okay. It hasn't come up there. I'm not sure. U don't worry. There's one, I think, of him pushing a bike up a hill, but I understand there was a very steep hill leading up to Castle Bay. Yeah, it was quite a long trek from the
01:11:59 Yeah, it was quite a long trek from the cottage that we were staying in to get to Castle Bay, which was the nearest shop.
01:12:05 shop. Right. So, um,
01:12:09 um, the photograph of you together, I realize this is difficult, but you do say in your witness statement, the one we just looked at where you look particularly young, that used to be a very treasured possession. It was it was a very it meant a lot to
01:12:21 It was it was a very it meant a lot to me. Um,
01:12:24 me. Um, it at the time it represented uh probably what was like one of the happiest days of my life. um you know with somebody who I loved and who I
01:12:36 with somebody who I loved and who I thought loved me. Um
01:12:41 and then yeah, looking at looking at it now, it just I I don't know. it.
01:12:51 I can't quite get my head around the way he's just like looking at the camera and
01:12:59 and he knew who he knew who he was and I don't know. I can't Yeah, it's impossible to process. You describe in your witness statement
01:13:11 You describe in your witness statement um that this was blissful.
01:13:15 blissful. Yeah. Um, and again I apologize for the personal question, but were you having sex with each other on this trip? Uh, we had sex a lot of times on this
01:13:26 Uh, we had sex a lot of times on this trip. Yeah. And again, was that largely instigated by him?
01:13:29 by him? Yes.
01:13:32 I understand from your evidence earlier in your witness statement that you you believe you properly fell in love with him here.
01:13:41 him here. Yes. And actually um friends have remarked on um the fact that they thought that that was a change in the nature of the relationship after
01:13:52 the nature of the relationship after that holiday as well. Yeah. So it like again shifted a gear became more intense more close. If I could bring up please we were basically alone together for I think it was 12 days
01:14:04 think it was 12 days and
01:14:05 and you know and we spent all the time doing really pleasurable things. Yeah. in a really beautiful environment and him seeming to care about me and you
01:14:17 and him seeming to care about me and you know expressing his love for me. Yeah.
01:14:20 Yeah. And uh yeah, it felt like a really happy experience. And again, were there any disagreements? Any
01:14:26 Any Not that I remember. Not that I remember. I remember it as really idilic.
01:14:33 idilic. If we could bring up please UCPI 39790
01:14:39 uh dated the 5th of July 1991 is a letter from him. I just want to take you to just where he refers to it. Page three the third sentence down
01:14:53 Page three the third sentence down again he's going through the happy memories. He says I remember a great holiday in Barra cycling along the roads with someone I loved. Beautiful. lovely, terrific days. So clearly
01:15:07 terrific days. So clearly he's presenting it as a very treasured, cherished memory for him. He doesn't mention this holiday in his inquiry witness statement.
01:15:20 inquiry witness statement. Um,
01:15:22 Um, you say in your We can take that down now. Thank you. Um, you say in your witness statement that on the return journey you caught the overnight ferry back to Oben, then the train to Glasgow, and from there you
01:15:34 the train to Glasgow, and from there you hitchhiked back to London. Yes,
01:15:38 Yes, there's a photograph of him. I don't think we need to bring it up, but it's at 39861. This is the photo of him with the M6 Tar sign. Yeah. So, that's him hitchhiking back. And you say in your witness statement of
01:15:50 And you say in your witness statement of paragraph 235 that you stopped at Rotherwell services in between lifts where he bought a cup of coffee. I was feeling exhausted through lack of sleep and he suggested I put my head down on
01:16:02 and he suggested I put my head down on his lap. When I got up again, he gave me a poem he had written on a napkin. If I could bring that up. That's 39775
01:16:19 dated the 23rd of the 6th, 1990. And he's written to watch again the evening sun set on the aisle of barra to gaze its clear seas lapping upon her
01:16:30 gaze its clear seas lapping upon her shores to tread its white beaches to ride its quiet ways to stroll its rocks to seal its to scale sorry its bends to dream again with you again my Helen
01:16:42 dream again with you again my Helen again on bar.
01:16:47 So again very loving very thoughtful more love bombing. Yeah. Yeah, we could take that down, please.
01:16:58 we could take that down, please. And
01:17:00 And again, if we could just bring up one of his letters which just echoes what you're saying, which is UCPI 39790,
01:17:11 dated the 5th of July, 1991, page two.
01:17:18 page two. the bottom of the page, the bottom paragraph, he says, "I remember snuggling up to you at those groy services at Rothwell/Bothwell. You were asleep. I felt real close
01:17:29 You were asleep. I felt real close to you despite the sniggers of the acid house crew who were queuing up behind us."
01:17:35 us." So, is that a reference to Yeah. the incident that you described? Yeah. He's trying to evoke more feelings in me for
01:17:46 more feelings in me for past events. Um, if we could take that down, please. Um,
01:18:00 I was going to bring up a report that he wrote around this time to draw a contrast.
01:18:05 contrast. It's a point you make in your witness statement. I don't want to distress you needlessly. Would you rather I didn't bring that up? Um
01:18:20 I think I know the one you mean. Um I think
01:18:25 I think it talks about you and Andrew Clark. Yes. No, I think that's okay. Okay. Um the report is UCPI 25306. It's dated the 5th of June 1990.
01:18:39 It's dated the 5th of June 1990. So it's around this period. Um
01:18:49 if we look at paragraph three, it says it's
01:18:55 okay, we don't actually we don't need to look at that one. If you look at paragraph four,
01:19:02 although Steel and Clark continue to reside in the same household at P Linden Road, they no longer appear to have a personal relationship. Well, obviously this is very soon after your sexual relationship with John Dyn has begun.
01:19:15 relationship with John Dyn has begun. And occasionally they are not even on speaking terms.
01:19:20 Consequently, the likelihood of this one-time formidable political activist duo participating together in any direct action is now remote. Clark is a pedantic, temperamental individual who is more intelligent and academic than
01:19:32 is more intelligent and academic than his former lover and has become highly politicized since his release from prison in April 1989. Let me take that down. I don't think we need to dwell on this, but the point is
01:19:44 need to dwell on this, but the point is the contrast, the stark contrast between the letters he's writing me at the time. Um, I think actually on the next page he talks about um
01:19:56 uh something about me rarely making contributions to and I think he and lacking any original thought. I I
01:20:08 and lacking any original thought. I I can't remember. I'll bring it up. It's fine. We can look at it. I know what you mean. If we could just bring that up again. Paragraph five.
01:20:18 this tendency towards reactive type campaigning by still is well exemplified by her regular attendance all manner of meetings, demonstrations and pickets. In fact, she probably surpasses any other anarchist commitment in that area. That said, although most frequently in
01:20:30 said, although most frequently in attendance, she rarely contributes any original thinking, but readily undertakes supportive roles which are often material in the success or failure of the particular initiative in hand. And then she's currently heavily
01:20:41 And then she's currently heavily devolved involved in the Trfalga Square defense campaign. Is that the bit you meant?
01:20:45 meant? Yes. Yeah. Um, so this is essentially I I did feel supporting other people that were going through a difficult time was a role that
01:20:57 through a difficult time was a role that I could usefully do. Yeah. Um
01:21:01 Yeah. Um but his um
01:21:07 his assumption he confuses not having the confidence to speak in a meeting with not actually being able to think like um you know
01:21:18 being able to think like um you know political thoughts and yeah uh
01:21:24 I think that just I don't know I can't put it words at the moment.
01:21:30 moment. No, I understand that he's mistaking. Yeah, he he's misinterpreting it. Plus the fact that he himself seems to have a thing about being thick in some of his reports. So, it seems like he's got a
01:21:42 reports. So, it seems like he's got a chip on his shoulder about that. Um, I think it's now time for a break, sir. Yes. Would you like quarter of an hour break?
01:21:49 break? Yes, that'd be good. Thank you. Good. Thank you. Of course.
01:44:13 Um, just something I need to make clear just for the record. Um, when I was discussing with you, Miss Still, the property tag, uh, which is referenced
01:44:25 property tag, uh, which is referenced UCPI 39877 and that bears the name DCI Groy. I should emphasize we don't know that that is a reference to DCI Gray. That's just a working theory, but obviously we can't
01:44:37 a working theory, but obviously we can't confirm that. So I want to just make that clear. Yes.
01:44:42 Yes. Um moving now to the next phase of the relationship when just just sorry but just to say in relation to that
01:44:53 relation to that he can't have staged that whole thing on his own. There has to have been somebody else that was involved with it.
01:45:04 In July, we understand that John Dyn moved into the address at Burgne Road. Yes.
01:45:10 Yes. That's what he calls the Finsbury Park address.
01:45:13 address. And he refers to that a lot in his evidence. Um, and he lived there from July to December 1990. Yes. Um,
01:45:23 Yes. Um, this was an address just off Green Lanes and
01:45:28 and it had its own toilet, kitchen, and garden even though it was a bedset. Yeah,
01:45:37 I understand from your witness statement that you had this place to yourselves essentially. Yes. Um there in terms of like a bath or a shower,
01:45:47 a shower, you had to share that with the other bed sits in the house, but everything else was basically self-contained.
01:45:58 How much time would you spend together once he'd moved to this address? Did it change? Did you spend more time together? Same amount of time. Um so uh
01:46:09 together? Same amount of time. Um so uh shortly after he moved in, he gave me a set of keys to the um both the outside door and the and the flat or bedsit door. He invited me to come over whenever I wanted to. Um
01:46:22 whenever I wanted to. Um there was like a there was like a little yellow notepad that was there that we used to leave notes for each other on. Um and uh if we
01:46:34 notes for each other on. Um and uh if we like if we I don't know if they were there independently of each other. Um and then um because it was much more private than my shared house.
01:46:47 private than my shared house. Um and because our relationship was developing, I started spending more time around there and um yeah, I would stay there more frequently.
01:46:58 there more frequently. How often would you say roughly?
01:47:03 Four nights a week. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to say and I think it would vary, but um I would spend more days with him as well
01:47:14 I would spend more days with him as well uh there.
01:47:15 uh there. But and you had, as you say, you had more privacy there than you had at Lyndon Road. Yes.
01:47:21 Yes. You say in your witness statement around this time he said he'd secured work at Mirror Print Works in Old. Yes.
01:47:27 Yes. So, he started to go away for periods of time.
01:47:31 time. Yeah. He would go away for um two, three, four, sometimes up to a week uh at a time saying that he was working at the mirror print works in Olden.
01:47:42 at the mirror print works in Olden. Right. And when he was away for those periods of time, would he ring you? Yep. He would generally ring me fairly regularly.
01:47:53 regularly. Um and he also sometimes wrote notes, letters when he was away. I know that he those those notes that you refer to on the yellow notepad, he refers to that in one of his letters. I'm not going to bring that up now,
01:48:04 bring that up now, but
01:48:06 but you refer also in your witness statement to you both going away around September 1990.
01:48:13 1990. Yes.
01:48:14 Yes. You were driving an Asian woman's group to Cornwall. Yes. I did voluntary driving work with um Haringay community transport and I got asked if I would drive this um Asian
01:48:26 got asked if I would drive this um Asian women's group on a holiday to Cornwall. Right.
01:48:31 Right. So I did that. Right. And so you drove them there, stayed there on the holiday and then drove them back and drove them around. Well, I drove them around on the holiday as well. Yeah. Um,
01:48:41 Um, and there's again correspondence which you exhibit which shows that he was purporting around this time to be spending time with his aunt Dorothy. Yes. He told me she was over visiting
01:48:53 Yes. He told me she was over visiting the UK.
01:48:54 the UK. Yeah.
01:48:55 Yeah. Um, and he wanted to go and see her. Don't worry if you can't remember this, but do you have any recollection of when you first discovered that her surname was Wilhome?
01:49:15 No, I can't remember. Um,
01:49:21 can you remember whether it was something he told you or something you saw on
01:49:25 saw on I think he I think he told me, but there again, maybe I saw it on a letter. It's not on either of the ones that I've
01:49:36 It's not on either of the ones that I've Oh, well, it wouldn't be on the one from No,
01:49:38 No, it's not on the exhibits and there's there seem to be on the SDS documents there are varying accounts of how that name became known, but if you can't remember, don't worry. Um, I know that what they've said that
01:49:50 Um, I know that what they've said that it was through Norman getting some newsletter or something is not correct. I got it from Dyn. Right. Okay. Well, that's helpful. Well, that that reference is
01:50:02 that that reference is Yeah, he said that he said that the there was some in inadvertently addressed mail and there's a reference MPS0749425 which is dated the 11th of March 2003.
01:50:14 which is dated the 11th of March 2003. This is one of the Muscat documents. Yeah.
01:50:18 Yeah. And it's written, I think this is what you're referring to. It says HB as in Hawks Bay, which was one of the code names they came up for him. thinks that Dorothy may even have put her name and address on the back of one of the envelopes as he recalls a series of
01:50:29 envelopes as he recalls a series of conversations with Norman Blair about the famous sports commentator of the same surname who was an acquaintance of Norman Blair's dad. Right.
01:50:38 Right. Some didn't know any of that until I read that in that document. So, as far as you're concerned, he you found out? I definitely found it out from him. Um just a very quick discreet topic. um
01:50:51 Um just a very quick discreet topic. um Dyn's back injury, right?
01:50:53 right? I know you say in your witness statement that he did sometimes complain of a bad back bad backs and you also set out what he was doing at the time when Martin Gray said he visited him making a
01:51:07 Martin Gray said he visited him making a welfare where he didn't say that where it's recorded in his diary that he made a welfare visit to him. I don't want to dwell on that. I just want to ask, do you know or did he ever give you an account of how he received that injury?
01:51:25 Uh, I think I had the impression it was something to do with the building work he was doing, but I don't I don't I can't quite remember. Just this is what it says in Martin
01:51:37 Just this is what it says in Martin Gay's Hearn statement. Just to see if this jogs a memory for you. It says under the heading John Dynay attributes it to he says he fell with others through a flat roof when storing
01:51:49 others through a flat roof when storing placards used in demonstrations and pickets.
01:51:53 pickets. I never I never heard that. No.
01:52:00 I'd like to move now to Mcll and the service of the Ritz. We know that they were served on the 20th of September. Yes.
01:52:10 Yes. 1990.
01:52:16 We understand that when you were served with these rits, you were stepping out of Dyn's van. Yes.
01:52:22 Yes. Outside the address on Burggoyne Road. That's right. So, um I had been at home in Lynden Road. Yeah. And my housemates had commented that there were kind of dodgy people
01:52:33 that there were kind of dodgy people hanging around outside that seem to have been hanging around for a while. And we were, you know, speculating about who they might be and what they were doing. Um, and then Paul Gravit turned up with
01:52:45 Um, and then Paul Gravit turned up with a copy of the RIT that he had been served
01:52:50 and and um I can't quite remember. We were having some sort of conversation and then um at some point Dines arrived and um he
01:53:04 and um he we asked him whether he'd seen the dodgy people outside and he said he hadn't seen anyone. Um and I can't remember exactly how long it was, but at some point he said to me,
01:53:16 it was, but at some point he said to me, "Why don't why don't you come back to my bedset?" Right. Um, and so I got in the van with him and drove to we drove to his to Burggoyne
01:53:27 drove to we drove to his to Burggoyne Road and um I remember that the there wasn't a parking space right outside his place. So we parked a little bit further up the hill and um where he
01:53:38 bit further up the hill and um where he parked there was like a a plane tree. Yeah.
01:53:42 Yeah. That kind of stopped me from opening the passenger door properly. So, I was getting out of the I was sort of turning around to get out of the the van door
01:53:53 around to get out of the the van door and this guy appeared in front of me and said, "Helen," and I was just like, "Well, who's this?" Like, "What?" And I didn't answer and he threw an envelope at my feet and then um he walked away
01:54:07 at my feet and then um he walked away and I picked it up and we then went into Dyn's beds. Yeah. Um, and I can remember him saying how angry he was that we'd been followed
01:54:19 how angry he was that we'd been followed back there and that they were spying on us.
01:54:21 us. Did he seem genuinely angry? He seemed angry. Yeah.
01:54:34 Um, I know later I mean obviously it took a bit of time to read all the paperwork. Yeah.
01:54:41 Yeah. But after that, he was asking me what I wanted to do about it or what I was going to do about it. Um, and I just sort of thought, well, I can't really make a decision now. I don't know the
01:54:53 make a decision now. I don't know the first thing about liel law. Um, need to get some legal advice. And then I remembered that um Tim Green was going to be um
01:55:06 Tim Green was going to be um at the meeting of the Trafalga Square Defendants Campaign the next day in Tottenham Community Project and so I went there and we spoke to him
01:55:18 and so I went there and we spoke to him there.
01:55:20 there. Right. Yes. I want to look at that in a bit more detail. Now it's it's the evidence in relation to when Dyn knew about McDonald's infiltrating London Greenpeace. There's
01:55:33 infiltrating London Greenpeace. There's a lot of conflict there. I'm not going to go through it all with you because I don't think you can speak to a lot of it. Um but there are contradictions but we do know
01:55:45 there are contradictions but we do know at the very least that Dyn admits to being told by HN67 with whom he was close. So they were football buddies. They were good
01:55:56 football buddies. They were good friends. And he says in his witness statement that he was told
01:56:04 soon afterwards the service of the rits by HN67
01:56:11 by HN67 that HN67 wanted to apologize to him because he'd been aware of agents infiltrating London Greenpeace and reporting on them. He knew about this.
01:56:23 reporting on them. He knew about this. He was involved in Operation Carnaby which was done in conjunction with McDonald's identifying activists potentially involved in the pole tax disorder.
01:56:35 disorder. And Dne says this in his witness statement at paragraph 96.1. He said he wanted to apologize from him to him and he advised me that they were aware. So
01:56:46 he advised me that they were aware. So these spies were not who he was as in John Dyn was John Barker was not John Barker it was John Dyn was an undercover officer. Mr. HN67
01:56:58 was an undercover officer. Mr. HN67 who was in C squad at that time apologized for not advising me at the outset. Until this point I did not know that my reporting might be provided to McDonald's. So that's what he says.
01:57:10 So that's what he says. Yeah. I mean, I know I've seen a report before the Ritz are served showing that the SDS did know that we were about to be served with the Ritz. Are you talking about the 19 the one the
01:57:22 Are you talking about the 19 the one the page 67 report just before? Yeah. Should I do you want me to bring that up?
01:57:26 up? Um, yeah. Yeah. Um, so that is MPS0740446.
01:57:33 So this is by HN67. It's dated the 19th of September. So it's the day it's it's actually the day when I think they were intending to serve the Ritz, isn't it? Because I have set out in my
01:57:45 isn't it? Because I have set out in my statement that in fact the day before we got the Rits, we had all been at the London Greenpeace meeting when these strange people had appeared in the building. Yeah. But because we'd not moved rooms as
01:57:57 But because we'd not moved rooms as anticipated, Yeah.
01:57:59 Yeah. they didn't they weren't sure which whether they'd got the right people and so they left without serving the Ritz.
01:58:06 the Ritz. So I think what this shows, we'll have a look at it, but is that HN67
01:58:13 was receiving intelligence from McDonald's investigators, but we'll look at it. So it's dated the 19th of September. It reads, "McDonald, the following information has been received from a reliable source. McDonald's, the
01:58:25 from a reliable source. McDonald's, the multinational hamburger corporation, are currently investigating the activities of London Greenpeace. Such investigations are being undertaken in response to a vitriolic leaflet campaign by London Greenpeace against McDonald's which is causing much concern within the
01:58:37 which is causing much concern within the corporation because of the outrageous claims, the threats implied in the leaflets and the worldwide extent of their distribution. investigation conducted on behalf of McDonald McDonald's by Tyson legal services
01:58:51 McDonald's by Tyson legal services then it gives an address have suggested that a hardcore of five members of London Greenpeace are responsible for the
01:58:59 the responsible for the publishing and distribution of these leaflets these members so identified Helen Steel Dave Morris Paul Grabbit Andrew Clark Jonathan O Farrell application is currently being made to obtain punitive rits and injunctions prohibiting further
01:59:11 rits and injunctions prohibiting further publication of such leaflets by the above mentioned individuals. If granted by the courts, McDonald's hoped to serve these legal papers on Thursday the 20th of September 1990,
01:59:22 Thursday the 20th of September 1990, either before or after the weekly meeting of London Greenpeace. Um, if we And then it says, "Arangements are in hand to monitor events arising from these legal proceedings."
01:59:33 from these legal proceedings." Yes. Which is presumably a reference to Dyn.
01:59:36 Dyn. Um, well, we'll look at some of his subsequent reporting in light of that. Um but we can see that this is signed off by HN67. Yes. Can I just mention that Tyson Legal
01:59:47 Yes. Can I just mention that Tyson Legal Services
01:59:48 Services they were one of the firms employed by McDonald's to infiltrate London Greenpeace and Alan Cla
01:59:55 Alan Cla Yeah. who he he was the only one of the private investigators that were employed by Tyson's and um he is the person that was liazing with the police over
02:00:07 was liazing with the police over operation carnaby and there was a two-way flow of information that is what resulted in us bringing the claim against the Metropolitan Police in 1999 when you sued them when we sued them over um sharing of
02:00:20 when we sued them over um sharing of private and confidential information and they didn't mention any of this in that in those proceedings at no at no time did they disclose to us during those proceedings that they had
02:00:31 during those proceedings that they had all these reports and this report wasn't disclosed to you in these proceedings and also if I understand correctly there were two private investigator firms spying on London green peas and they didn't know investigation bureau was the other one
02:00:43 investigation bureau was the other one right and they didn't know they were deliberately yes
02:00:46 yes unaware of each other's existence because of Sid Nicholson yes Nicholson McDonald's head of security took the decision not to tell them about each other's existence.
02:00:57 them about each other's existence. Yeah. So, in any event, this line about arrangements are in hand to monitor events and Dyn's comment in his witness state and I think we can take that down. Thank you. Where he says, "Until this point, I did not know that my reporting
02:01:08 point, I did not know that my reporting might be provided to McDonald's suggests that from that point on he did know that his reporting might go to McDonald's." Yes.
02:01:18 Yes. Um, if we look
02:01:24 also at this is a file note. This is from the um Muscat documents. Just bring it up quickly. It's MPS 011302
02:01:37 um page three just the penultimate bullet point. So this is a note written by
02:01:45 by DIHM53 on the 13th of December 2002 and he's written this this is in the context of you being in New Zealand and
02:01:56 context of you being in New Zealand and searches you're conducting but he makes this point as with the dropping of the pole tax charge Barker's deliberate emission from the McDonald's liel writ list will have added to those suspicions.
02:02:07 suspicions. Yes. I mean, I wasn't suspicious at the time that he was left off the midl. However,
02:02:14 However, um
02:02:16 um I think it's clear that there was um
02:02:22 his involvement with the anti McDonald's campaign was probably greater than mine. Dyn's.
02:02:27 Dyn's. Yes.
02:02:28 Yes. Yeah. Um and certainly in terms of you know he would regularly um answer letters and send out the fact sheet
02:02:35 sheet right
02:02:36 right which wasn't something that I did. Yeah.
02:02:38 Yeah. Um you know if anyone if if there wasn't some sort of collusion on this he would have been on the he would have been on it would have made sense for him to be on
02:02:49 on to be sued as well. Yeah. But at the time I just thought well it's the luck of the drawer isn't it? Sure. So you weren't suspicious. You just thought he somehow got away with it. Well, this is a question for HM53
02:03:00 it. Well, this is a question for HM53 when he gives evidence, but this would suggest there was exactly collusion to keep him off. Will you take that down, please? Um,
02:03:11 now I'd like to just bring up a Dyn's report. This is UCPI 26697.
02:03:20 This is a report dated the 27th of July 1990. So this is before the service of the rits
02:03:31 and
02:03:35 he says in paragraph two during 1990 London Greenpeace has not played a particularly significant role within London's anarchist movement. Um, but it's paragraph 4. I'm
02:03:46 Um, but it's paragraph 4. I'm particularly interested in
02:03:51 26697. It should be in the It was in the T2 bundle if that helps.
02:04:01 Well, in any event, I'll read out paragraph 4. It reads, "Weekly meetings of London groupies are composed of a handful of diehard anarchists and the occasional interloper on behalf of the McDonald's
02:04:14 interloper on behalf of the McDonald's restaurant chain seeking out the organizers of the annual world day of action and the worldwide propaganda mail out which as ever is being undertaken by Paul Gravit following the departure from
02:04:26 Paul Gravit following the departure from the group of a man known vaguely as privacy." I think we don't need that a privacy reduction there. think I'm not I think that might say Tony. It was it was overzealous privacy redacting at an
02:04:37 overzealous privacy redacting at an early stage. But I think that's a reference to one of the spies Anthony. Right. Yeah. And assumed to be a McDonald spy. Egotistical activists have concluded that a woman named Jan, I think that is.
02:04:50 that a woman named Jan, I think that is. Yes.
02:04:51 Yes. Has replaced him. In her mid30s, politically naive and unsuttle, she fulfills the model infiltrator in the minds of some paranoid individuals. I mean, putting to one side the irony of
02:05:02 I mean, putting to one side the irony of him saying, "You're paranoid." an egotistical when he himself is an undercover officer writing this report. Um
02:05:08 Um yes,
02:05:11 yes, he
02:05:11 he and it was him that raised it was him that first raised the idea that McDonald's might be infiltrating the group.
02:05:19 group. Yes. Well, indeed. You pointed that out earlier.
02:05:22 earlier. I mean, we had we had felt suspicious about some of the people who were attending, but we didn't kind of Yeah, we didn't think it was McDonald's. We didn't think of McDonald's. My question
02:05:33 didn't think of McDonald's. My question is at this stage so this is 20 late July 1990 when he says the occasional interloper on behalf of the McDonald's chain which he states in terms of certainty. So he clearly does know that.
02:05:45 So he clearly does know that. Yes. So did that reflect your state of knowledge at the time or even state of suspicion? No. Um the only suspicion relating to McDonald's was what he raised with me that time that we um were followed by
02:05:58 that time that we um were followed by the private investigator. right after the London Greenpeace meeting and I speculated about who it would be and he and he said
02:06:09 he and he said probably McDonald's right and that as you said earlier that was the first time that had even entered I had no idea in July that any any or all of these people were from McDonald's.
02:06:20 McDonald's. Yeah. Um,
02:06:23 Yeah. Um, I mean this is a point I can make quickly, but we know now from McLeel and subsequently and from your witness statement that there were a number of McDonald spies over that period from
02:06:35 McDonald spies over that period from late '89. Yes. Most until I think the service of the Ritz or thereabouts. Yes. Most of them left fairly soon after the service of the Ritz with the exception of um Shelley Hooper who
02:06:48 exception of um Shelley Hooper who continued
02:06:49 continued um for I think it was until May the following year. Um and she was actually also in a relationship with somebody in the group. Yeah.
02:06:59 Yeah. Um and she was a former police officer as well.
02:07:02 as well. Yeah. Um and I know she you can't see her that well. She's in one of your photographs. Yes.
02:07:08 Yes. Taken outside. Well, I think it's actually one of McDonald's photographs. It could be mine. Yeah, that was given. Yes, it might be the one we looked at earlier. Um, so we know there were a number of spies. Anthony Pockington, Brian Bishop, Alan Cla, Francis Tiller, who is known as
02:07:21 Cla, Francis Tiller, who is known as Jan, Jack Russell, and Michelle Hooker, known as Shelley. Um I just want to explore this very briefly in a number of reports throughout which we'll look at
02:07:33 reports throughout which we'll look at in due course but Dyn records very low attendance at London Greenpeace meetings.
02:07:38 meetings. Um
02:07:40 Um so would it be accurate to say that sort of from late ' 89 to the service of the Ritz when the attendance of these meetings was already low that a very significant proportion of the people at
02:07:51 significant proportion of the people at these meetings were made up of McDonald spies and SDS spy? Yes. Well, I mean, yeah, I I don't think um that was like every meeting, but and and the the
02:08:02 every meeting, but and and the the numbers at the meetings did vary, but there were certainly meetings that took place where I think there were we were potentially outnumbered by spies.
02:08:14 Um I'd like to look now at some of John Dyn's reporting on MLE. Right.
02:08:23 Right. Um, now you refer to this. You say that on the 22nd of September 1990, there was a Trafalga Square defendants campaign meeting, but you asked Tim Green for his
02:08:34 meeting, but you asked Tim Green for his help.
02:08:34 help. Yes.
02:08:35 Yes. Um,
02:08:36 Um, and he said that he um didn't have any experience of liel law. So um he couldn't directly help us but that he knew someone who owed him a favor who
02:08:48 knew someone who owed him a favor who knew
02:08:49 knew something about liel law and he would put us in touch uh and that was Karma. Um
02:08:57 Um and you say in your witness state the day after that Sunday the 23rd of September 1990 you say that Dne suggested that you go
02:09:08 you say that Dne suggested that you go for a day out together. Yes. He he I I can't remember exactly how the conversation came about, but um he suggested we go for a day out. We went
02:09:19 suggested we go for a day out. We went to Alexandra Palace. Yeah.
02:09:21 Yeah. Uh and then he took me to Regent's Park, which I hadn't been to before. Yeah.
02:09:27 Yeah. And that was when he started telling me about um how this was the area that he'd grown up in as a child. Yeah.
02:09:33 Yeah. Um and that um kind of he sort of had affectionate memories of it. and it was the first time that he showed me any photographs of him as a child as well.
02:09:44 photographs of him as a child as well. Um, and he pointed out uh various buildings as like I don't know um his old school or Yeah.
02:09:54 Yeah. things like that. Um and obviously subsequently I found out that was in fact the area right
02:10:00 right that he spent some of his childhood. Right. Okay. Um, looking back, why do you think he took it upon himself to do this? I think it was like a combination of um,
02:10:13 I think it was like a combination of um, it was he was looking to engineer us spending time together in the immediate aftermath of getting the
02:10:25 the immediate aftermath of getting the Ritz.
02:10:25 Ritz. Yeah. and of um having had the meeting with the solicitor. Yeah.
02:10:34 Yeah. Um
02:10:35 Um so that he could find out what my thoughts were about how you know how what I intended to do about it, what we intended to do about it. Um,
02:10:46 it, what we intended to do about it. Um, and the other side of it is that, um, I think that by showing me photographs of himself as a child and and showing me a bit about his background,
02:10:58 bit about his background, um, he was trying to make me feel like I knew him better and I could trust him.
02:11:04 him. Um,
02:11:05 Um, yeah.
02:11:07 yeah. Yeah.
02:11:08 Yeah. So, uh,
02:11:11 So, uh, yeah. trying to make you feel even closer to him than perhaps Yeah. and and be more likely to, you know, tell him more detail.
02:11:23 more detail. Um, let's look at a couple of his reports. So, if we could bring up, please UCPI 26742.
02:11:31 These should all be in the T2 section of the bundle. Um, this is dated the 25th of September, 1990. So that's a couple of days after this.
02:11:43 of days after this. Yeah. So um I I think it is important to point out at this time Yeah.
02:11:47 Yeah. that after we'd been for the day out together
02:11:51 together um
02:11:53 um to Regent Park and Alexandra Park. I went I then went back to his bedsit and spent the night with him and slept with him. Yeah. And he then he then left in the morning supposedly to go to work but in fact to
02:12:05 supposedly to go to work but in fact to go to the SDS meeting where he filed this report. Okay. know that is important. Yeah.
02:12:11 Yeah. Um paragraph four he says this discussions involving Clark Morris Grabbit and Steel on the evening of the 21st of September centered mainly around the source of the information specified
02:12:22 the source of the information specified in the legal document. This included details of dates when the lielist material was either circulated or made available to the public and detailed the presence of the five individuals on those dates. After much deliberation at
02:12:33 those dates. After much deliberation at the closed meeting, it's been concluded that a man who has attended London Greenpeace meetings, known only as Privacy, was working on behalf of McDonald's Restaurant Group and that currently two other men who occasionally attended London Greenpeace meetings are
02:12:44 attended London Greenpeace meetings are now suspect of being directly or indirectly employed by McDonald's. Um, just pausing there. So, it seems here that it's only now that he's putting forward the facts. Well, it's
02:12:57 putting forward the facts. Well, it's only at this stage that you had concluded that McDonald's were infiltrating London Greenpeace. Is that accurate?
02:13:05 accurate? Um,
02:13:06 Um, I I think we I mean, we still didn't actually know, but we we certainly thought that was almost certainly what had happened. Yeah.
02:13:14 Yeah. Um, where did he get this information from to the best of your knowledge? Um,
02:13:21 Um, so this is referring to the discussions involving Clark Morris, Gravit, and Steel on the evening of the 21st was
02:13:32 21st was the meeting that I Well, it wasn't a meeting, but when Paul Gravit came around, right, I see our house. Yeah.
02:13:38 Yeah. And Dave and Andrew came as well. Right. In fact, I can't remember whether No, David definitely moved out by then. Um, and I think Andrew had moved out,
02:13:51 Um, and I think Andrew had moved out, but I'm not quite sure. But they did, they did come round. And so this is from um
02:13:57 um that. So that evening. Yeah. And obviously being with me that night and over that weekend when I was talking about everything that happened. Yeah.
02:14:07 Yeah. Um, if we could take that down please and bring up UCPI 26754.
02:14:17 This is another HN5 report dated the 9th of October 1990. And paragraph two he refers to the recent service of the Ritz. Paragraph
02:14:29 recent service of the Ritz. Paragraph three he says discussions in the group coupled with barristers's advice have dulled the enthusiasm of some to further distribute the allegedly lielless leaflet what's wrong with McDonald's consequently the mass publicity campaign
02:14:41 consequently the mass publicity campaign planned to coincide with the world day of action and to provoke widescale protests by animal rights campaigners has not occurred nevertheless the protest outside the McDonald's offices in Finchley on the 16th of October
02:14:53 in Finchley on the 16th of October should witness a much larger turnout than the 40 or so campaigners who annually picket the premises says, "Man, the next paragraph, please." Yeah, that's not a very accurate description of of um what happened.
02:15:06 description of of um what happened. Um
02:15:07 Um as I've mentioned previously, the leaflet that we were sued over was pretty much out of it. It wasn't really used for street distribution. It was basically saved for
02:15:19 distribution. It was basically saved for um answering people's inquiries, right? Um, and the spies rep the McDonald's private spies reports at the time actually recorded as well that
02:15:30 time actually recorded as well that there weren't many copies left. So, it wasn't there was a decision taken not to distribute it. It was that we continued to distribute the shorter version.
02:15:41 version. Um
02:15:43 Um and in fact I think rather than dulling the enthusiasm I think um there was a conscious decision to make sure that the picket took place
02:15:55 picket took place and to not be intimidated into silence by them. So yeah, um, paragraph four reads, "The five Dave Morris, Jonathan O Farrell, Helen Steel, Paul Gravit, and Andrew Clark had all
02:16:07 Paul Gravit, and Andrew Clark had all intended to ignore the RIT and leaflet under the noses of the McDonald's management. Now assuming that such an action may result in the immediate service and been injunction, such action is less likely. Only Steele's intentions
02:16:18 is less likely. Only Steele's intentions are unknown. She has not received legal vi legal advice as she is currently holidaying with a family member. Uh, sorry, there's a typo on the just a family member abroad.
02:16:29 family member abroad. Um,
02:16:30 Um, yeah, I that didn't uh I think it just said my sister and I don't need privacy. I don't need privacy reduction. That's fine. Um,
02:16:40 fine. Um, we can see here that he's reporting back on the intentions of four of the parties named on the RIP, but not you. And if I understand correctly, yes, you were on holiday with your sister. So he hadn't
02:16:51 holiday with your sister. So he hadn't actually spoken to you at this point about what you actually so and this is in my statement but um
02:16:58 but um Dyn had
02:17:01 Dyn had I went to Greece with my sister. Yeah.
02:17:03 Yeah. And um Dyn had actually suggested places that we could go to and he drove us to the airport. So that's why he knew that I was on holiday with my sister.
02:17:14 I was on holiday with my sister. Right. Um we can take that down now. I'm not going to take you to a bit in one of the letters that you exhibit which is dated the 15th of October 1990. So it's
02:17:25 dated the 15th of October 1990. So it's around this time. I'll read out the reference just for the transcript. It's UCPI 39780. And
02:17:35 he refers in this letter, this is on page one, paragraph 4, to finding out from Aunt Dorothy. So I think this is when he says Aunt Dorothy's in town. He's hanging out with her. that she tells him that his real dad, who is
02:17:48 tells him that his real dad, who is deceased, according to him, was not actually his dad. The dad that he'd grown up Yeah. thinking was his dad was not in fact his biological father. So, it's another layer of trauma.
02:17:59 So, it's another layer of trauma. Yes.
02:18:00 Yes. That he's putting out there. Yes. At this stage. Yes.
02:18:05 Yes. Um,
02:18:08 Um, if we could bring up please UCPI 26762.
02:18:13 This is another Dyn report. This is dated the 23rd of October 1990.
02:18:20 Uh again, it's about MLE, the civil action. Paragraph four reads, "There remains confusion, doubt, and indecision amongst the five, save with Farrell, who intends to issue an unconditional public
02:18:32 intends to issue an unconditional public apology. Of the others, only Morris looks forward to the possibility of imprisonment for failing to comply with the RIT. And of course uh the attendant publicity which will further enhance his
02:18:44 publicity which will further enhance his already high profile of re high profile of reputation amongst the anarchist community. Clark Gravit and Steel are busily investigating the veracity of
02:18:55 busily investigating the veracity of some of the claims made in the allegedly lielist McDonald's fact sheet. Realistically the anarchist group are only likely to be able to prove perhaps half of their allegations. Their efforts will be inadequate in preventing a
02:19:06 will be inadequate in preventing a judgment being made against them. However, surprisingly perhaps, Gravit and Steel are somewhat concerned with the prospect of being declared bankrupt if the judgment against them is for anything more than a pittance. Gravit is
02:19:18 anything more than a pittance. Gravit is a part-time So, if we could just go to the next par page, freelance journalist researching environmental and animal matters and this year has for the first time received a regular wage. Steel begins a
02:19:30 received a regular wage. Steel begins a business and computer course within the next few weeks with a view to full-time employment. neither relished the prospect of surrendering most of their earnings to McDonald's. Um,
02:19:41 Um, first of all, again, is this information he gleaned from you? Um, well, it's not all entirely accurate, but yeah, essentially, um, he knew that I was starting a course
02:19:53 knew that I was starting a course because I was in a relationship with him and I talked about it. Yeah. Um and this again is providing information to
02:20:07 providing information to that ultimately might go to McDonald's about ways that they can potentially like to give them litigation advantage. Yeah.
02:20:17 Yeah. Um
02:20:19 Um could you put back the first paragraph because there was something sorry. Yeah. Do you want which paragraph do you want? It's the bit about um we're busy investigating the veracity of some of the claims made. It's
02:20:31 of the claims made. It's so what actually happened was that when we got legal advice they
02:20:35 they we were told just how difficult it is to defend a liel case that you can't just you know produce a report for example on the links between diet and heart
02:20:46 the links between diet and heart disease. You actually have to get a scientist in the witness box to give evidence on your behalf. And so in order to defend the claim, we
02:20:57 And so in order to defend the claim, we needed to find um all the kind of both documentary and witnesses who would be willing to testify to that effect. I hadn't been in the group at the time that the leaflet
02:21:09 the group at the time that the leaflet was written. Um and my understanding was that the people who had left, sorry, people who had been involved in writing it had left. And so we were left with the kind of burden which included
02:21:20 with the kind of burden which included Bob Lambert as I now know but I didn't know at the time. Um and so we were left with the burden of trying to find sufficient evidence to be able to defend
02:21:31 sufficient evidence to be able to defend the case. But yeah,
02:21:32 yeah, we very much believed that the claims the the the allegations that they were saying
02:21:39 saying that they were claiming for Yeah.
02:21:41 Yeah. Um were true. It was a question of how you managed to prove them because of the level of evidence that's required in a liable case. Yeah, I understand. So, it wasn't that you actually thought they were untrue.
02:21:53 you actually thought they were untrue. Yes. Um
02:21:59 and it was particularly difficult with well with for example the rainforest issue because the witnesses were the other side of the world and we didn't have the kind of um funding to be able
02:22:11 have the kind of um funding to be able to fly over to the other side of the world to
02:22:14 world to secure their attendance at a hearing. Yes. Um,
02:22:19 Yes. Um, I won't go to every single report, but there's another report, um, which is UCPI26792
02:22:26 UCPI26792 dated the 11th of December, 1990, in which he reports that Andrew Clark and Jonathan Farrell are going to apologize. And we've had to redact some of that report. You can see in paragraph 4
02:22:38 report. You can see in paragraph 4 because it contains legal professional material subject to legal professional. Yes, this this is actually inaccurate. Um it wasn't
02:22:51 Um it wasn't um Bernbergs didn't say they would no longer act on our behalf. What actually happened was that at the time there was a green form legal aid scheme. Yeah.
02:23:01 Yeah. That allowed you to get one hour or possibly two hours of legal advice um free no matter what kind of your what kind of case it was. Um, and I think
02:23:14 kind of case it was. Um, and I think because there were five of us, we'd managed to get about five hours, but that was that was going nowhere in the grand scheme of um Yeah.
02:23:23 Yeah. what needed to be covered. Yeah.
02:23:25 Yeah. So, um
02:23:26 So, um Yeah. So, it's not as if they're turning their backs on you saying this has got no merit. We're not going to help, which is the implication. Yeah.
02:23:35 Yeah. Um,
02:23:43 if we could just look up look at paragraph five of this document while we've got it up.
02:23:51 Um he says recognizing that any future court process is unlikely to permit anarchist political ramblings, it appears that the three defendants will not attend a hearing and initially at
02:24:02 not attend a hearing and initially at least will not comply with any judgment in favor of McDonald's. I I think at well at one point we did discuss that if it wasn't going to be um
02:24:14 discuss that if it wasn't going to be um uh
02:24:17 uh practical to um you know fight the case in in any detail either because of the cost or the difficulties of assembling such a like I mean that they sued us
02:24:29 such a like I mean that they sued us over such a huge range of issues that it was a mammoth task um that we did talk about just um defying the judgement Sure. Um,
02:24:42 you say in your witness area, we can take that down. Thank you. Um, that one of the ways you think Dyn was privy to information about your legal strategies and your defense was because
02:24:54 strategies and your defense was because he would drive you home from meetings at Douty Street Chambers. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. Did that happen on one occasion, more than one occasion? Um there's definitely
02:25:05 than one occasion? Um there's definitely one occasion when um that I've outlined in my statement uh where we had been served with a um
02:25:15 notice to strike out. Was that No, I think it was further and better particulars and there was quite a bit of paperwork I think and he came and gave gave us a lift gave me a
02:25:27 came and gave gave us a lift gave me a lift back
02:25:28 lift back in his van. Um he may have given Dave a lift back as well. I'm not sure. Um, but I'm I'm pretty sure that there were other occasions when he gave me a lift back as well. But even if there weren't,
02:25:39 back as well. But even if there weren't, the reality is that we were spending so much time together that I was discussing the case with him, you know, as and when anything new happened.
02:25:49 happened. And I must imagine it was quite you quite preoccupied with it. It was all consuming. Yeah. Um, I'd like to bring up a letter from Dyn
02:25:59 Dyn um in relation to this. matter of the MC global proceedings. It's UCPI 39783.
02:26:12 This is dated around January February 1991. So, it's a little bit further down the line. Um, it says, "Hello, you. Hope today hasn't been too down for you. I
02:26:23 today hasn't been too down for you. I don't quite know where to start, but here goes anyway. You can't beat the world on your own. We need millions of people like us. no lecture. I know the importance of individuals and their efforts. And I think it's brilliant that
02:26:35 efforts. And I think it's brilliant that people will do things alone, but perhaps they have to stand alone too. Perhaps they become isolated, not necessarily by their friends, but more likely the system dividing us up. Perhaps that that
02:26:46 system dividing us up. Perhaps that that isolation is too much for a person to cope with. Look at that guy yesterday. I'm not going to say do, don't etc. I think your decision is actually the right one. I would being a yes per I
02:26:59 right one. I would being a yes per I would being a yes person but I am worried that because of what you might do it may make matters more difficult and the bastards may pursue you for a long time as things stand I think
02:27:11 long time as things stand I think they'll consent themselves with a judgment against the two of you followed by threatening solicitors letters which will lead to nothing. Here's hoping. I'm not changing my mind.
02:27:23 Here's hoping. I'm not changing my mind. I still think it's vital for the campaign to continue and the sooner it's relaunched.
02:27:33 Okay. Well, I don't know when the next page Oh, there it is. the better. But should it be you remember why you don't want to be involved? Well, you have a future, too. Remember why you don't want me involved.
02:27:44 Remember why you don't want me involved. Oh, sorry. Why you don't want me Thank you. Sorry. Um, why you don't want me involved? Well, you have a future, too. You have a life to lead and it's hard enough as things are illegitimate non-tartum carporundom. Don't let the
02:27:57 non-tartum carporundom. Don't let the bastards get you down. But don't make things worse for yourself. This is no lecture hells. These are not orders. Just the thoughts or ramblings of someone who loves you heaps. Please
02:28:08 someone who loves you heaps. Please don't prolong the indefinite. You can bore me out later. I still love you though.
02:28:16 though. So what is it that you understood? he was seeking to do in this letter. What is he talking about? So, um, he is basically trying to put the idea in my head that I may have a
02:28:28 the idea in my head that I may have a breakdown if I fight the Mcllyel case. That's what he's talking about when he says about um perhaps the isolation is too much for a person to cope with. Look at that guy yesterday. Um I can't
02:28:41 at that guy yesterday. Um I can't remember the specific incident but I know it related to somebody having some sort of you know that we saw that was clearly
02:28:47 clearly right
02:28:48 right um unwell. Um and
02:28:54 I just wanted to say actually that you see the uh kind of whether you call it orange or brown writing. Yeah. So, the way that he gave me this letter, um I can't think what
02:29:05 me this letter, um I can't think what they're called, but the little foldy fortune teller things. Um and he before he gave me the letter, he made me, you know, I don't choose a number or whatever it was.
02:29:16 whatever it was. Uh and so it was done in a kind of jokey way, but at the same time, he is trying to put the idea in my head that yeah, I might have a breakdown if I fight the case,
02:29:27 case, right?
02:29:28 right? um and suggesting that I should back down basically. Um
02:29:35 Um this is an obvious question, but looking back now, how do you feel about this letter?
02:29:40 letter? I think it's
02:29:44 I mean it's it's outrageous on so many levels. Uh he's
02:29:55 he's pretending to love me, pretending to care about me while trying to undermine undermine me and make me do something counter to what um
02:30:07 make me do something counter to what um was my intention uh by suggesting that I might go mad. And
02:30:15 And yeah, it's he's
02:30:24 asked to do this directly by McDonald's or indirectly to put that idea in my head that I should back down. Um, I just wanted to draw your attention
02:30:35 Um, I just wanted to draw your attention to two paragraphs from Paul Gravit's T2 witness statement. Right. Um this is W his witness state which is UCPI 37231.
02:30:47 UCPI 37231. It's page 61 paragraphs 466 to 468. And he talks about his decision to
02:30:58 And he talks about his decision to apologize. He says in late 1990 when the difficulties became obvious, Andrew said he was apologizing. That left Dave, Helen, and me. We were meeting and talking about the case frequently and Dyn was with Helen most of the time.
02:31:10 Dyn was with Helen most of the time. Therefore, it is certain we discussed legal advice we had been given with him. Although I wanted to continue, not least because I had been the most involved in the campaign, I came under pressure to drop out. One of my housemates told me
02:31:21 drop out. One of my housemates told me she was worried that Biffs would seize her property if they raided the house. So, he's supporting what you said that Dyn was present when there were a lot of these legal discussions. Paragraph 468, he says, "My girlfriend lived there,
02:31:33 he says, "My girlfriend lived there, too,
02:31:34 too, and said she would end our relationship if I continued. She had become friends with Shelley Hooper, who we later learn was a private agent, Michelle Hooker, hired by McDonald's to spy on LGP.
02:31:46 hired by McDonald's to spy on LGP. Unlike the others, she did not leave before the Ritz were served. In fact, she had a relationship with an activist who was an LGRP and I think that's Pacne and Islington ARC
02:31:58 ARC animal rights campaign. Animal rights campaign. Thank you. Which lasted several months after it was revealed in the McLeel trial that she was a spy, my girlfriend told me they had discussed the case and she believed
02:32:09 had discussed the case and she believed Hooker influenced her to persuade me to apologize. Yes. I mean, I I remember that initially Paul was probably the most keen out of all of us to fight the case. Yeah.
02:32:20 all of us to fight the case. Yeah. Because he was the most involved in the case.
02:32:22 case. Yeah.
02:32:22 Yeah. Um and I do remember him being reluctant to to to back down. Um, I mean, yeah, it's just really quite
02:32:34 I mean, yeah, it's just really quite shocking the lengths that uh were gone to um by both the police and the McDonald's spies in
02:32:46 and the McDonald's spies in undermining um our ability to fight the case and also creating division between us. Um, a new topic now, Miss
02:33:00 between us. Um, a new topic now, Miss Still, moving into Clyde Circus. Yes.
02:33:03 Yes. Um,
02:33:05 Um, I understand from your witness statement, you found it on the 27th of November, 1990. You moved in 7th of 8th of December, 1990. Um, and it's your evidence that you
02:33:18 Um, and it's your evidence that you moved in together to this place. We did.
02:33:29 Um, now we know that Dyn disputes living at this address with you. Yes, he's lying. Yeah. Um, I'm just going to look at some of the exhibits. Okay. Yeah. Um, so
02:33:42 Um, so UCPI 39898.
02:33:52 This is a letter from your sister. It's dated the 4th of March 1991. Um,
02:34:02 you can see on the postmark, I mean, it's actually not very clear, but it is underneath the privacy reduction as well. And
02:34:10 well. And now the postmark's at the top. Mine doesn't have a privacy reduction. It you can It's hard to read the fourth, but you can see it's March 1991.
02:34:20 Yeah. Okay. We can see that from that. Um, and we can see that obviously it's addressed to to me at CL. Yes. Um, if we could bring that down.
02:34:31 Um, if we could bring that down. And it also refers to uh my my parents visiting us the previous week which they they came to visit us after we'd moved into that address. And we can see in that first paragraph,
02:34:42 And we can see in that first paragraph, "Dear Helen, thanks for the long letter. It was much appreciated. Mom was saying they've been to see you last last week or so. Mom was very impressed with John. Her words were, he's lovely. So that also shows your parents meeting
02:34:54 So that also shows your parents meeting met him. Yeah. And John thought we were together long term and living together. Yes.
02:35:02 Yes. Um if we could take that down please and bring up 39792.
02:35:13 This is a card from John Dyn's address to you at Clyde Circus. Yes.
02:35:21 Yes. Um
02:35:25 the date is the 18th. We can see from the postmark the 18th of June 1991. Yes.
02:35:31 Yes. Um I'll just bring up one more. Um but there are plenty of examples that you set out in your witness statement. There are and I actually have more as well if if that wasn't I've got more. Um
02:35:43 well if if that wasn't I've got more. Um we'll look at one more now. If we could take that one down, please. And
02:35:51 bring up if we bring up this one. So, it's UCPI 39799.
02:35:59 This is one of his letters. It's it's the undated one from 1991, but it was addressed to Clyde Circus. Page two,
02:36:10 I'll be home as soon as I can. See you later.
02:36:15 later. a reference to the fact that he considers
02:36:18 considers that we're living together. That you're living together. Yes.
02:36:20 Yes. Um we can take that down. There are plenty more of examples. They're set out in your witness statement at
02:36:32 paragraphs 321 to 338.
02:36:37 Um,
02:36:43 a dispute of fact between you and D is the
02:36:47 the fact that you're planning a future together.
02:36:56 Just briefly, I will look at this. Um, again, we know that he denies that you were planning a future together. I'd just like to bring up um one of your
02:37:07 just like to bring up um one of your exhibits UCPI 39937.
02:37:16 Um
02:37:20 paragraph four over the page please. So this was sent this is around the period just after the rit's been served and he's gone away for a period.
02:37:32 and he's gone away for a period. It's just after the holiday in Greece. Just after the holiday in Greece. Yeah. And he's Yes. Hope you're having fun. Oh, no.
02:37:40 Oh, no. I think this is This must be not the right one because this is September 1990, I think. Oh, yeah. No, I think that's right.
02:37:51 Oh, yeah. No, I think that's right. Actually, I apologize. I think that is the wrong one. Sorry, it's the wrong reference. Is it? Sorry, it might be 39779.
02:38:05 No, I'm I'm sorry. I think that there's something
02:38:14 um paragraph 4. No, I'm sorry. Which paragraph of my statement is it? It this is referred to in paragraph 258.
02:38:26 in paragraph 258. 258. um where he refers to in this letter he refers to having a really good day at the horicultural course that we understand he was on.
02:38:37 understand he was on. Yes, but this again is is September 1990. So it's not it's not actually when we were in Clyde Circus. Okay, fine. Sorry, apologies. So that's I've got the exhibit reference wrong,
02:38:48 I've got the exhibit reference wrong, but this is a letter. I'll just read it into the records. Struggling to find the reference. We can find the correct one. Um
02:38:55 Um do you know the date of it? I think it's the 29th of September 91 of 91.
02:39:02 91. Uh,
02:39:03 Uh, yes. I think I've
02:39:07 misnoted it,
02:39:12 but it looks like the reference is um, is it HS328?
02:39:19 Well, I've got it down is the new exhibit which was HS3118 which was the one you apply you supplied.
02:39:30 supplied. Okay.
02:39:30 Okay. Well, I I
02:39:32 Well, I I I I think because um I've got my list of exhibits here and HS 328 is the letter that I think was written on the 25th of September 1991. So,
02:39:45 well, the a reference I've got here is 39779.
02:39:51 Oh, sorry. 3 sorry 39799. If it doesn't come up, I will move on because I don't want to um waste everyone's time. 39799.
02:40:03 everyone's time. 39799. Oh, no, that's the one we've just seen. Okay, don't worry. The the the point is in this letter, we will find the correct reference. I will read it into the record, but he makes a reference in paragraph 4 to having a good day at the
02:40:16 paragraph 4 to having a good day at the horicultural course and he says, "I hear that wealthy bastards are buying up tracks of marginal farm." Right. Okay. Yeah. No, that might be the 1991. Sorry, but it's before we move into Clyde Circus.
02:40:27 into Clyde Circus. I understand. Um,
02:40:29 Um, so we were talking about spending our lives together even before we moved into Clyde Circus. Yes. So that's what I was going to ask. He says buying up tracks of marginal farmlands in northern England and
02:40:41 farmlands in northern England and borders as investment re greenhouse effect warming as greenhouse effect warming growing regions. I'd better get my act together. Helen, I love you. Yes.
02:40:51 Yes. So the reference to getting his act together is a reference to what? As far as you understand to to buying um a small plot of land in the countryside where we could live
02:41:02 the countryside where we could live together
02:41:02 together and that was something you discussed. Well, it was,
02:41:08 as I set out in my statement, the the reference to our visit to Pete's place in Yorkshire. Yeah.
02:41:16 Yeah. Um, and me talking about the fact how much I loved it there. Yeah.
02:41:23 Um, he then
02:41:24 he then basically mirrored that back to me and sold me a dream of that's what he'd like to do as well. he'd like to get a place in the countryside and, you know, grow
02:41:36 in the countryside and, you know, grow our own food and um yeah,
02:41:39 yeah, no, I don't know, look after animals, whatever. Uh and and have a family. Um so that's what he's referring to in in the letter, the right
02:41:49 right buying up, the tracks of land, and he better get his act together. Yeah.
02:41:55 Yeah. Um if I could bring up another document, please. This is UCPI 39801. So this is from December 1991. So this is towards the end of your relationship.
02:42:07 is towards the end of your relationship. Um
02:42:10 Um the bottom of page three, please.
02:42:21 Um so two lines up when he says, "Then I get a bit lonely. Then I miss Helen. Then I shut my thoughts out of If we could turn over the page, please.
02:42:32 out of my mind. Then I feel strong again, totally independent, a wanderer, but not really. What I've always wanted one day as a woman to fall in love with, to have a home together, to have some children, to love and look after each
02:42:44 children, to love and look after each other. Is it too much to want? If we could take that down. Yes, he he he made that kind of comment. Well, he talked about those things.
02:42:57 Well, he talked about those things. Yeah.
02:42:57 Yeah. Several occasions. I'm just going to bring up one more example and then I'll move on. Um, UCPI 39816.
02:43:09 It's dated the 16th of April 92. So, this is
02:43:14 this is a period of time after his deployment's ended.
02:43:16 ended. Yes.
02:43:17 Yes. Um, it's actually page five, but the page has a handwritten six on the top of it.
02:43:24 it. So, if we move to Yeah, this is it. Um,
02:43:32 so it will have been too. You must believe Helen that I was being sincere when I talked about kids at home traveling with you making a pond. But it'll only ever be a dream now. So
02:43:44 But it'll only ever be a dream now. So that would suggest that he had talked to you with every appearance of sincerity. Yes.
02:43:51 Yes. About on several occasions. Yes. Yeah. Kids at home. And the the thing about a pond was a bit of a running joke because we um we used to go to, you know, feed the
02:44:03 we used to go to, you know, feed the ducks in Alexandra Palace and other places. And it was something we enjoyed doing together. And so he started joking about the fact that if we got a place, if we managed to get a place in the country, he would dig a
02:44:14 a place in the country, he would dig a duck pond so that we could sit and watch the ducks together. So yeah.
02:44:18 yeah. Yeah, there's a few references to the duck pond across the documents. Um I think it may be time for a break now sir.
02:44:26 sir. Certainly. Um how long for 10 minutes? 15 minutes. Uh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thanks. Um I have read all of the correspondence uh before and after he uh was removed
02:44:41 uh before and after he uh was removed from his deployment or after he left his deployment. All of the correspondence with you uh which refers as you rightly say to having children and setting up home together and all the rest of it. Yes. Um, is there any need for me to do
02:44:55 Yes. Um, is there any need for me to do more than that? Is there to be evidence about that? Oral evidence about that as well?
02:45:01 well? Um,
02:45:04 Um, well,
02:45:04 well, I'm okay with a short break. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I'll be okay. Yeah. Very good. Well, we we'll break for 10 minutes and um perhaps you and I can discuss. Yes, we'll have Yeah, we'll
02:45:16 discuss. Yes, we'll have Yeah, we'll have to
03:00:16 Um, M. Still, I just want to return briefly to a topic that you raised briefly earlier on, and this is the change in your and John Dyne's use of
03:00:29 change in your and John Dyne's use of contraception. Um, you said that in the later stages of the relationship, you started to use the rhythm method. Yes. Um,
03:00:38 Yes. Um, was that something you discussed with him?
03:00:41 him? Yeah.
03:00:42 Yeah. And so he was aware. Well, of course he was aware. Sorry, that's a stupid question. But did did you talk about the possible risks of using that method? Yeah. I mean,
03:00:53 Yeah. I mean, I think uh I thought if we were reasonably careful, there weren't huge risks, but there was also a point at which I wanted
03:01:05 there was also a point at which I wanted to have children with him anyway. So, I didn't um
03:01:10 didn't um Yeah.
03:01:11 Yeah. The risks
03:01:12 The risks Yeah.
03:01:13 Yeah. didn't seem that great. Yeah. And how did he respond in those conversations? What was his stance as far as you could tell?
03:01:25 tell? It was him who raised the idea of having children originally, not me. Um it wasn't something I'd been thinking of. Um,
03:01:35 Um, you know, this was for me it was the first time I'd moved in with some with with with any of my partners. Um, it was a way more serious relationship
03:01:47 it was a way more serious relationship than I'd had before. Um, but I hadn't really thought about starting a family. Yeah.
03:01:53 Yeah. Um, until he started talking about it. Um, and
03:02:01 Um, and I mean I say the first time he brought it up and he talked about having kids and I was like, "Well, how many are you thinking of?" And you know, he he's
03:02:12 it six and it was like, "Wow, that's a lot."
03:02:16 lot." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm not sure about that." But um then after a while I mean I I
03:02:26 mean I I uh
03:02:28 uh I did I just thought it yeah I thought I'd met the partner that I wanted to be with for the rest of my life. I thought he felt the same about me. That's certainly what he said to me. Um and so
03:02:42 certainly what he said to me. Um and so that was what I wanted to do. Yeah. And you refer in deep deception to that incident where he mentioned wanting to have five or six children um and him bringing it up and you say that
03:02:55 and him bringing it up and you say that that was New Year's Day London 1991. Does that sound right? um here now. I can't remember the specific date of it, but um I yeah, I do I do
03:03:08 date of it, but um I yeah, I do I do remember that it was him that brought it up.
03:03:12 up. And he also talked about picturing us growing old together. Yeah. Um there was there was something he said about he remembered like seeing
03:03:23 he said about he remembered like seeing an elderly Greek couple sitting on their ver looking at the watching the sunset and he he kind of um that's what he
03:03:34 and he he kind of um that's what he dreamt that would happen to us sort of thing.
03:03:36 thing. Yeah.
03:03:37 Yeah. And would it be fair to say that he was fully aware that if you did accidentally get pregnant then you would want to keep that baby and have that baby with him? He understood that.
03:03:48 He understood that. Yeah, I think so. Certainly. Certainly. Um,
03:03:53 Um, by the time of the conversation on the beach in Ireland, yeah,
03:03:56 yeah, he was certainly well aware that I wanted to have children with him. Um, so I understand that conversation took place in September 1991. We'll
03:04:07 took place in September 1991. We'll Yes.
03:04:08 Yes. look briefly at the trip to Ireland just in the chronology of events, but I'll bring that up. It's um UCPI 39798.
03:04:17 It's dated the 25th of September 1991. It's page two and it's the beginning of the final paragraph
03:04:31 where he says just while we're waiting for it to come up, he he writes, "I feel so gobsmacked, moved, head over heels about some of the things you said last week, Hell's I'll never forget what you
03:04:42 week, Hell's I'll never forget what you said on the beach." Yes.
03:04:44 Yes. So, can you help us with what you had said to him? Uh so um I mean this was
03:04:56 uh a time of emotional turmoil because he'd left his leaving
03:05:03 leaving for me in the Clyde Circus flat that I'd come home to. Then he'd come back. Then he'd gone away again.
03:05:12 again. Yeah. Um, and then he told me that he was in Ireland and um,
03:05:18 and um, will you come back to this because Yeah, I'll come back to it. Quite a lot of No, no, don't worry. I suddenly realize we're skipping over all the No, no, don't worry. I'm not going to skip over I want to run through the chronology, but don't worry. Just in terms of what this conversation was. So,
03:05:31 terms of what this conversation was. So, um, I remember that, uh, you know, I'd had my period and I'd been really disappointed because I'd thought I was pregnant and I talked to him about that
03:05:42 pregnant and I talked to him about that and he asked me a question about why I was
03:05:48 was upset or something. Um, and I explained
03:05:57 uh that I wanted to have children with him. Um,
03:06:03 him. Um, uh,
03:06:13 I think I've set out the wording in my statement and I'm not sure that I can say it.
03:06:16 say it. Don't worry, that's fine. We'll move on. But in any event, he we can see how he responds in this letter. Yes.
03:06:24 Yes. And he was moved head over heels, gobsmacked is what he said. Um,
03:06:34 so I think if we could look now at the sequence of events from around
03:06:46 well late 1991. Yeah.
03:06:48 Yeah. And how things unraveled for one of a better word. How he he sought to extricate himself. Um,
03:06:58 your witness statement paints a very vivid picture of a sort of incredibly chaotic push and pull type Yes.
03:07:08 Yes. dynamic where he's giving you lots of mixed messages. He's doing one thing, saying another, and it gives every impression of being
03:07:19 and it gives every impression of being intolerable. It was uh it was an emotional roller coaster. Yeah. Um so I'll just read out some of the chronology and if you want to add
03:07:30 the chronology and if you want to add something please do interject. So you say that for the first time on the 2nd of May he said to you so this is 91 we're
03:07:41 he said to you so this is 91 we're talking about. He said to you that he was thinking of leaving
03:07:48 but then he So just remind me where we are in the statement. Yes, in your statement it's paragraph 350.
03:07:55 350. It's page 102 if that helps. So it's in relation to a letter he sends you where he says, "I hope you've not been too lonely or miserable. I feel
03:08:07 been too lonely or miserable. I feel much the same. I'm so sorry if I've been hurtful, but I had to try and tell you how I was feeling." And you say that you reminded by your diary that
03:08:18 say that you reminded by your diary that on the 2nd of May he said he was thinking of leaving. Yes. I didn't I didn't remember this. It it this is just from my diary. Sure.
03:08:28 Sure. For me the the one that I remember the most was coming home to the letter in August.
03:08:32 August. Okay. Well, should we go to that? I mean I I don't mind going through this. It's just that it it was basically from my diary. Um and the letters that he sent.
03:08:41 he sent. Yeah. So you pieced it together from that rather than your recollection. I understand um well I'll just go through it sort of just very at a high level but
03:08:52 it sort of just very at a high level but I understand that he you noted in your diary that on the 2nd of May he said he was leaving. You saw each other on Saturday the 11th of May, Sunday the 12th of the May or 12th of
03:09:04 Sunday the 12th of the May or 12th of May you talked. It seemed fine. You had sex. You slept together. Um
03:09:12 Um you refer to
03:09:17 him again over this period going to for periods of time. Um
03:09:26 you recount that he went to then he returned on the 1st of June 1991 and you say in your witness statement at page 103 paragraph 353 that when he returned
03:09:37 103 paragraph 353 that when he returned you had unprotected sex. So this is the rhythm method that you referred to and in your witness statement paragraphs 353 to 356 you set out your
03:09:50 paragraphs 353 to 356 you set out your activities. It's very detailed chronicle taken from your diary. Yeah. And and here as well I think um the fact that he he says here in um the
03:10:02 the fact that he he says here in um the letter of that's dated between the 27th of May and the 1st of June. Yeah. I feel like I'd feel that I'd like to spend the rest of my life with you health. So all through the period when
03:10:14 health. So all through the period when he is telling me that he wants to split up or is thinking of wanting to split up, he's also giving me the conflicting message that he wants to spend the rest of my life rest of his
03:10:26 spend the rest of my life rest of his life with me. And in that same letter, he signs off because I love you. Yes.
03:10:32 Yes. Um,
03:10:34 Um, you've also said at paragraph 388 that then very late on Thursday the 18th of July 1991. So that's after you now know he had an SDS meeting that day just as
03:10:47 he had an SDS meeting that day just as you were dropping off to sleep. He said perhaps he wanted to end the relationship. Yeah.
03:10:52 Yeah. And that came as a bolt from the blue. And I understand you were very distressed by that. Mhm.
03:11:01 Mhm. Um and then on the 20th of July he left for
03:11:06 for purportedly. Um
03:11:11 Um you then set out that on the 26th of July 1991 he returned to attend the funeral of Ros Dad
03:11:20 Dad Dadk who was Robert Lane's part Robin Lane's partner who died tragically. Yes.
03:11:27 Yes. Um there's a horrible report about that. I don't think we need to go to it. But where he reports on that very callously
03:11:34 callously and then after that funeral he left on the 27th of July 1991. Yes. So throughout that entire period he
03:11:45 Yes. So throughout that entire period he was pretending that he was away in Aldom.
03:11:47 Aldom. Right.
03:11:48 Right. But he just came back for that funeral. And to me that I just think that's absolutely vile. Yeah. Well and then submitted a report on it. and then submitted a a really
03:12:04 vile report about that funeral. I'll just read out the reference for that just for the transcript. We don't need to bring it up, but it's MPS0746114,
03:12:15 about a vile report about Ros and those who loved her. Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine that's a that's a significant bereavement. That's a young woman
03:12:26 a young woman Yes. dying unexpectedly. Yes.
03:12:29 Yes. Yes.
03:12:30 Yes. Um
03:12:32 Um you say that he returned on the 31st of July 1991. He on that date you and he went to the Rio cinema to watch Pu.
03:12:43 Rio cinema to watch Pu. Yes.
03:12:43 Yes. And that Dyn spoke from the floor about being arrested at the protest in 1981 against the tour of the South African rugby team. Yes. In New Zealand.
03:12:54 In New Zealand. um
03:12:55 um and that Trevor Morris filed a report on that event but doesn't mention that we were there. Yeah. So that reference is UCPI 28129.
03:13:06 Yeah. So that reference is UCPI 28129. This is dated the 2nd of August 1991. We can bring that up quickly actually. We'll have a look at that. So this is HN78. Um can we just zoom? Yes, thank you.
03:13:18 Um can we just zoom? Yes, thank you. It's the prints a bit faint. Um, yes, he says this. On the 31st of July at 19:30 hours at the Rio Cinema, Kingsland High Street, the Hackne Solidarity Group
03:13:30 High Street, the Hackne Solidarity Group presented Patu, a video film about the demonstrations of public disorders surrounding the 1981 South Africa Springbot Rugby Tour. Some 70 persons attended. A lesser number remained to hear the accounts of those persons
03:13:41 hear the accounts of those persons present at the viewing who actually took part in the disorder. One of whom you say is John Dyn. Yes. Questions were canvased from the floor dealing with the issues arising from the film and the subsequent
03:13:52 from the film and the subsequent personal recollections whether political m momentum was carried through from the spring book tour thereby enriching other New Zealand based campaigns i.e. Maui rights and what significance the film
03:14:03 rights and what significance the film had for the UK left-wing movement post pole tax.
03:14:07 pole tax. Yes. So I think the point is that he's talking about the subsequent personal recollections and he's he's omitting to mention that one of them was his colleague in the STS. Yeah.
03:14:18 Yeah. Which would seem like significant information. Yes. And then we look at paragraph four where he lists who's present persons present and organizations represented. Norman Blair's there.
03:14:29 Blair's there. Yes.
03:14:29 Yes. Um he's obviously your good friend at this time. We we were almost certainly sitting
03:14:34 sitting right
03:14:35 right next to him or near to him. I don't think you know he gave us a lift home from
03:14:41 home from Trevor Morris dead. No, no, Norman. Oh, right. Um I don't think that um I don't think that Trevor Morris could have missed that to be honest. And we can see Paul Gravit's listed
03:14:53 And we can see Paul Gravit's listed there.
03:14:53 there. I don't think he could have missed that both I and Dyn were there. Understood. So your suggestion is that that was a deliberate Yeah. that he's ad he's admitted both of us so that he doesn't reveal that we're
03:15:04 us so that he doesn't reveal that we're there together. Um, we can take that down now. Thank you.
03:15:08 you. Because we did go as a couple. Yeah. And would it have been obvious? I think it had been pretty obvious. Yeah.
03:15:17 Yeah. Um, again you set out that on the 3rd of August. So the next day after that he went away again. Then he came back again on the 6th of August.
03:15:30 6th of August. Then you go on holiday again together. Yes.
03:15:33 Yes. Um from the 9th of August to the 17th of August to Yorkshire. So that's a significant period of time. Yes.
03:15:44 Um again who instigated this holiday? Uh almost certainly him. Um I mean he would have driven us both there. Um
03:15:55 would have driven us both there. Um and
03:15:55 and I mean it's possible I said, "Oh, it'd be nice to go away." But um he he would have he would have driven us. Yeah.
03:16:03 Yeah. And
03:16:06 And I wouldn't Yeah. No, I I'm I'm pretty confident that he probably uh
03:16:13 uh Yeah.
03:16:14 Yeah. initiated it. Certainly. I wouldn't have sort of demanded that he'd go away for that length of time. So I think he he would have been quite happy about Yeah.
03:16:24 Yeah. spending that time together. And again, was this visiting your friends who lived up there?
03:16:28 up there? Yes.
03:16:29 Yes. Um,
03:16:31 Um, you describe this holiday as again that things between you were good, that he acted lovingly, that again on this holiday he talked about a future together, and that you visited estate agents. Yes. Together.
03:16:44 visited estate agents. Yes. Together. Yes. We were looking in the windows just to kind of see if there was any very cheap places going anywhere. again with the idea of buying a place together, a
03:16:55 the idea of buying a place together, a small holding. Yes.
03:16:57 Yes. Um,
03:17:00 you then refer to and provide some exhibits from around this period. So again, I'm not going to bring them up, but I'll just summarize what they contain. So there's
03:17:11 summarize what they contain. So there's one which is UCPI 39795 dated the 23rd of August which appeared to have tear stains on it in which he said he was leaving home.
03:17:23 leaving home. Yeah, this I mean this is actually it was a very significant letter, right?
03:17:29 right? Um
03:17:30 Um would you like me to bring it up? Yeah, I think Okay, possibly. Yeah, that's fine. I will. Um UCPI 39795.
03:17:40 So, this is coming very soon after this holiday where you're getting off. Yes. Where it appears the the relationship is back on. We're talking about a future together again.
03:17:51 about a future together again. Yeah.
03:17:52 Yeah. Um and he seems to want to still be in a relationship and you're having sex with each other and we're continuing to have sex with each other. Yes. So, he writes this. Dear Helen, Helen,
03:18:03 So, he writes this. Dear Helen, Helen, I'm leaving home. I'm too wrecked to write much now. It's no use, I suppose, telling you that I feel sad, guilty, and angry at myself for letting you down so badly. But honestly, I do. You deserve
03:18:15 badly. But honestly, I do. You deserve only great luck and happiness in all that you do. Keep being Helen. She's magic. Helen, I have to stop now. I can't keep on. Helen, I love you. Please don't hate me forever. Thanks so much
03:18:27 don't hate me forever. Thanks so much for sharing part of your life with me. All the love I have is yours, John. I'm sorry. Sorry, H. I just can't stop running away. I will phone soon when I get myself together.
03:18:39 get myself together. Yes. And you see the efforts he's gone to to make the paper look tear stained and like he's in a Yeah.
03:18:46 Yeah. quite a state of distress. Yeah.
03:18:48 Yeah. Which was how he acted as well. Right. Can I ask what was the emotional impact on you of receiving this letter so soon after that? I was devastated. Um, you know, I came
03:19:02 I was devastated. Um, you know, I came home expecting him to be at home and saw this letter um
03:19:10 um in the front room and picked it up and read it.
03:19:15 read it. There was no way of contacting him to find out what all this was about. Um, he was clearly in great distress by the, you know, it looked tear stained.
03:19:27 you know, it looked tear stained. Yeah. Um,
03:19:29 Yeah. Um, and
03:19:33 he's also even in the even within this letter, he's giving conflicting messages.
03:19:37 messages. All the love I have is yours, but he's also running away. And the impact on me was just I was just like confused, overwhelmed, distressed.
03:19:49 distressed. Uh,
03:19:51 Uh, I I wanted to I wanted to be able to talk to him to understand what this was about and
03:19:59 about and what was going on and whether we could sort it out together and I had no way of contacting him. Um, and I was just left with it on my own
03:20:10 and it I understand just terribly confusing because it appears to Yes. But like, you know, I I mean, yeah, I was extremely upset. And
03:20:24 I was extremely upset. And did you feel you could talk to anyone else about this and what was happening? No, not really. Um, I mean,
03:20:34 I mean, firstly, I am quite a private person and I didn't generally talk about my relationships with other people uh in great detail. Um, and also
03:20:51 I mean I I don't know whether it's directly from this one, but certainly as the as this kind of twoing and throwing went on and the conversations
03:21:03 throwing went on and the conversations that I did in the end have where he seemed to be indicating he was going through some sort of mental breakdown. uh you know he was always talking about I I I need to sort my head out and this
03:21:15 I I I need to sort my head out and this that and the other and it felt um like if I talked to other people about it it would be invading his privacy. So I didn't feel like I could talk to anyone
03:21:26 didn't feel like I could talk to anyone else about it. Um I just kind of tried to deal with it on my own because you didn't want to betray his Yes. his confidence because you thought he was going through some terrible
03:21:38 he was going through some terrible Yes.
03:21:39 Yes. mental event. I mean, I wouldn't I don't think I would have after this letter. I would want to speak to him first anyway to understand what what it was about.
03:21:51 what what it was about. Um, and I had no means of contacting him. So, I was left alone to deal with it on my own. And the thing about this is
03:21:59 is uh and I didn't realize this until I put it all well I mean I must have known it at the time but um we had actually arranged to go down to
03:22:10 actually arranged to go down to um visit my family for my sister's 21st birthday on the um well it wasn't for the actual birthday but when she was celebrating her birthday um
03:22:23 celebrating her birthday um on the day after this I think it is Um and
03:22:28 and yeah,
03:22:28 yeah, so what happened was that effectively derailed
03:22:33 uh you know what should have been a happy family occasion, right? Yeah. With me being extremely distressed that my partner had just disappeared and told and then I mean I think he had no he no
03:22:44 and then I mean I think he had no he no he hadn't come back at that point but yeah it seemed seemed to be going through some sort of a breakdown. So, you had to go to this family event, did you?
03:22:52 you? It wasn't a big event, but it was just like instead of it being a happy event, it was like I just felt kind of consumed with grief and worry. And again, I understand from your
03:23:04 And again, I understand from your witness statement, you felt slightly embarrassed about the fact he wasn't there at the event. Slightly ashamed, I think, is the word you used. Is that fair to say? Um it
03:23:17 you used. Is that fair to say? Um it felt very awkward cuz I again I didn't feel like I could talk about it um in any detail like I couldn't explain it. I mean apart from the fact it didn't make
03:23:28 mean apart from the fact it didn't make any sense to me that he was saying I want to be with you but
03:23:33 but I've got to leave. Yeah.
03:23:35 Yeah. Um Yeah.
03:23:36 Um Yeah. It didn't feel appropriate to kind of give that
03:23:39 give that Yeah.
03:23:40 Yeah. to share that information. Yeah. And also I understand it's your sister's birthday. You don't want Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I didn't really want to overshadow the occasion either. Yeah.
03:23:48 Yeah. Um,
03:23:51 Um, you also say in your witness statement that because you were so confused and you were looking for answers, you started to blame yourself and wonder what it was that you had done. Yes.
03:24:00 Yes. That might have led to this. Um, he writes you two more letters over the following days. One on the 25th of August, 1991. I
03:24:13 days. One on the 25th of August, 1991. I don't propose we bring it up, but he says, "I think about you every day." Hell's
03:24:19 Hell's talks about feeling confused. Um, I'm sure I love you, but I'm not going to say anymore. Please believe me that I love you more than I know how to
03:24:30 that I love you more than I know how to say. I just wish I didn't feel the need to keep moving all the time. Please take care of Helen. She's beautiful in all ways. And then he sends you one two days later
03:24:44 And then he sends you one two days later in which he says he's got the shakes, he's hung over and it's very early. This this then became a bit of a theme where he would
03:24:55 he would uh either phone and tell me that he was drunk or um would write referring to having got drunk and it seeming to be that he was
03:25:08 drunk and it seeming to be that he was drowning his sorrows and he wasn't in a very good way. Yes. So this is part of the the mental breakdown. He's now drinking to excess. So then I'm extremely worried about him. Yeah.
03:25:17 Yeah. And his well-being. Yeah.
03:25:20 Yeah. Um, this is the letter. We referred to this letter earlier just in terms of who makes the point here about your lack of confidence, your shyness. And
03:25:33 at the end of this letter, he signs off, "Please take care of Helen. All the love I have is yours." So, yes, as you say, mixed messaging. Yes.
03:25:44 Yes. Continuing to tell you that he loves you.
03:25:47 you. Um,
03:25:49 Um, you say that he came back on the 28th of August, you slept together, and then he told you he was off to Ireland to find his real father because at this stage
03:26:00 his real father because at this stage he's given you to understand that Aunt Dorothy told him that his deceased dad was not his actual dad. Yes.
03:26:09 Yes. Um, you decided to help him. So, you were doing some research. Yes. Um, so I've, um, when, uh,
03:26:22 when my youngest sister was still at school, um, she came and stayed with me in London and we went to the family records center. Yeah.
03:26:32 Yeah. To try and it was a school project to look up the family tree. And so I got interested in family history. Right. Um, and so I knew how to look up
03:26:43 Right. Um, and so I knew how to look up um, birth certificates and death certificates. And so I thought I'll help him because he's trying to search for his parents. He's he's really sorry, he's trying to search for his dad. He's,
03:26:55 he's trying to search for his dad. He's, you know, distressed about it. He's saying that uh, he feels alone in the world. And it felt like if he could find this biological father, maybe he would
03:27:08 this biological father, maybe he would kind of feel less alone in the world, I suppose. So I I wanted to try and help him. Well, I understand. And also it might mean that then your relationship might work and you might have a future. There's that as well. Yeah. Yeah.
03:27:20 There's that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um but you say then also that he then rang you on the 9th of September and invited you to join him. Yeah. Well, so but before that, um I had
03:27:34 Yeah. Well, so but before that, um I had had a conversation with him over the phone where I'd told him that I'd found um
03:27:41 um the certificate. Uh
03:27:46 yeah, you found details of his parents' marriage. You applied for a copy of the certificate. Yes. So that's at paragraph 414.
03:27:56 414. Yes. So, what I now think is that he was alarmed by the fact that I'd looked up his parents' marriage certificate because he knew that that could
03:28:07 because he knew that that could potentially lead to me discovering that yeah,
03:28:11 yeah, he was using a false identity, right?
03:28:13 right? And that he therefore invited me to come to Ireland as a way to Yeah.
03:28:20 Yeah. control
03:28:22 control like what what happened next sort of thing.
03:28:25 thing. Yeah. Yeah. to stop you. Yeah. Your investigation to stop me unc accidentally uncovering who he really was. Um
03:28:35 Um or rather who he really wasn't.
03:28:41 You went out to join him there. Um and you recount that you spent some time there doing research and
03:28:52 spent some time there doing research and then you went camping down the Gway coast.
03:28:55 coast. Yes. and that it was on that camping trip that's when you had that conversation on the beach at Spittle that we referred to not long ago where you talked about your
03:29:06 where you talked about your disappointment and not being pregnant. Yes. Can you put up the photograph? Yes, I can. So, I will bring up it's UCPI 39881.
03:29:17 UCPI 39881. So, I understand this was taken on this trip.
03:29:21 trip. Yes. This is like we basically camped beside the beach. Um you can see how small the tent is. It was Yeah,
03:29:29 Yeah, it's a very small tent and yeah, we slept together in there. Uh
03:29:35 Uh and
03:29:37 and Yep.
03:29:39 Yep. Yeah. And again, it's a beautiful scene. And there he is lighting a making a cup of tea. Yeah. Cup of tea. Yeah.
03:29:50 Cup of tea. Yeah. Um,
03:29:54 now we can take that down. Thank you. Um,
03:30:00 in your witness statement, you set out that you returned from Ireland. You were back to Clyde Circus, both of you together on the 22nd of September. Yes.
03:30:09 Yes. And that you expected him to stay, but he left less than six hours later. Yes. I was quite takenback by that. Um I think when we were returning from
03:30:20 think when we were returning from Ireland, I assumed that he was coming back to to stay Yeah.
03:30:26 Yeah. in the flat. Um
03:30:29 Um Yeah. And then he suddenly announced that he wasn't going to be
03:30:35 Does it follow from that that again when you were in Ireland, you were getting on well, your relationship seemed loving, close? Uh, I can remember the first night I arrived, he took me to a
03:30:50 first night I arrived, he took me to a B&B that he'd booked. Uh, and we had sex, which he initiated. Um, that he was pretending to love and
03:31:02 Um, that he was pretending to love and care about me, but that he felt conflicted because he felt alone in the world. And he was he had this thing that I he was concerned that I was going to leave him because Deb, his exartner, had
03:31:15 leave him because Deb, his exartner, had done that to him. And so I was going to do the same and he got nobody else left in the world and therefore I was
03:31:23 I was if I left he'd be on his own. And um and it didn't make any sense to me, but when I tried to discuss it, it just felt
03:31:37 when I tried to discuss it, it just felt like it was part of his sort of breakdown through the loss of his parents and, you know, uh the discovery that he'd,
03:31:49 you know, uh the discovery that he'd, as he put it in his letter, I really am a bastard. Yeah. Um,
03:31:54 Yeah. Um, so yeah, I put it down to to that and that the irrationality of it to some extent was indicative of the fact that his mental state was disordered.
03:32:05 his mental state was disordered. Yes. Um
03:32:11 again you set out in great
03:32:15 in great sorry can I just say one other thing because one of the things that hit me I mean you know all of this is um the kind of
03:32:30 the stage of getting from what you thought was a real event to what it turns out to be is quite a sort of I don't know
03:32:42 of I don't know a mindbending experience. Um and um you know I had genuinely thought he was going through some sort of a breakdown
03:32:53 going through some sort of a breakdown in this period. And so to see him write in his statement that actually he was on the ferry, the same ferry as I was on, he was basically following me over there
03:33:06 he was basically following me over there was just like that was quite mind-blowing in itself. It was just like he's acting that level of distress. Yeah.
03:33:15 Yeah. And has utter contempt for what it's doing to me. Complete contempt. and he was well aware of the distress that it was causing me. Well, I was
03:33:26 Well, I was he knew about that. You set that out in your witness statement. But again, in your face tof face interactions with him, were you making it clear to him how upset?
03:33:37 making it clear to him how upset? Well, he knew he'd seen me crying a lot. Yeah.
03:33:40 Yeah. Yeah.
03:33:43 Yeah. Um,
03:33:50 in your witness statement, um, again, you set out further examples of his erratic behavior. This is when he starts disappearing,
03:34:02 disappearing, saying he's spending the nights walking the streets, um, giving every indication of a sort of escalating mental crisis. Is that fair to say?
03:34:12 to say? Yeah.
03:34:14 Yeah. Um,
03:34:17 he disappears. He comes back. Um, you refer to an incident where he came back on the 29th of September 91 early in the morning when you were in bed.
03:34:28 morning when you were in bed. Yes.
03:34:29 Yes. And he initiated sex. So when you did see one another during this period of turmoil, would he initiate sex when he saw you?
03:34:37 saw you? In general, yes. um
03:34:44 moving into option which I took at the time to be a sign of affection. Yeah.
03:34:48 Yeah. But I can see now that actually he was just exploiting me for sex. Yeah. Did it also give you hope to some extent because you thought well well the fact that he kept returning that he kept telling me that he loved me
03:35:01 that he kept telling me that he loved me and that he wanted us to be together if he could only sort his head out. Yeah. Uh,
03:35:08 Yeah. Uh, I mean it just went on for so long. Yes. I mean indeed again and you set it out. So as an example in your witness statement you say on the 8th of October
03:35:20 statement you say on the 8th of October this is all information that you've taken from your diary at the time the 8th of October 91 after you slept with one another. Dines left early to go to the LGP office. You
03:35:33 left early to go to the LGP office. You went out when you returned home. Dyn and Norman were there. They watched a rugby match. Then Dne said he was leaving to see Bob
03:35:41 see Bob until 7 p.m. Do you think he could have meant Bob Robinson or do you think it just wasn't I don't I don't know. Um the the thing is I didn't
03:35:54 the thing is I didn't I cannot think of another Bob um that was in our friendship circle. Um Yeah.
03:36:04 Yeah. And yeah, whether I mean it it
03:36:14 I mean he he did like during this period I did see him crying on a number of occasions, right?
03:36:20 right? Um so it is possible that
03:36:28 he he is referring to Lambert, but that he's
03:36:36 doing it uh
03:36:40 uh you know without thinking about how he shouldn't be doing it. Right. I see. But if I understand your evidence correctly is at the time if he had suggested it was Bob Robinson, you would have been surprised by that. Like
03:36:51 would have been surprised by that. Like that's something that would have been a cause.
03:36:52 cause. I think it it would have been quite surprising. But yeah, I mean I don't I maybe it's Yeah. Well, anyway, we don't need to dwell on it. Um,
03:37:03 dwell on it. Um, but you describe again a sequence of events where he said he was going out. He didn't return. He didn't ring until 9:30. Then he did. He said he was drunk and staying in the office. Then he changed his mind and said he would come
03:37:15 changed his mind and said he would come back. Then he rang again and said he was staying out. And then at midnight you went to bed. And then he eventually did come home at 1:15. Yes. am.
03:37:24 Yes. am. And you know, we've referred to one other example, but it happened quite a lot that this emotionally uh exhausting behavior would be
03:37:37 uh exhausting behavior would be he'd initiate he'd like initiate conversations about this quite late at night,
03:37:42 night, which had an impact on my ability to sleep.
03:37:45 sleep. Yeah.
03:37:46 Yeah. Um and I now think he was deliberately destabilizing me. Well, that was going to be my question is what impact did it have on you? You say in your witness statement you you felt you'd almost reach your limit at
03:37:58 felt you'd almost reach your limit at this point. And when you say that, do you mean you were you think you you were maybe on the brink of a breakdown of some sort? I was frequently crying at this time as
03:38:09 I was frequently crying at this time as well.
03:38:09 well. Yeah.
03:38:10 Yeah. Very upset. And also just bearing in mind that you've got McLeel rumbling along. Yeah. in the background. So, you're under tremendous pressure. Yeah.
03:38:21 Yeah. And a lot of stress. Um,
03:38:28 but I felt very conflicted because he continued to tell me how much he loved me. Yeah.
03:38:37 Yeah. And essentially, I suppose make me feel guilty in a way. when when he talked about feeling alone in the world, it made me feel like I was responsible for
03:38:48 responsible for his happiness and him not being alone in the world. So yeah,
03:38:52 yeah, it was another um Yeah.
03:38:58 Yeah. And you're very invested by this stage in the relationship, if I understand correctly, you're in love with this person.
03:39:04 person. Yeah. Uh
03:39:08 Yeah. Uh and you care deeply about their well-being. Yes.
03:39:13 Yes. Yes.
03:39:15 Yes. And I wanted, you know, he when the relationship started and he was, you know, all the kind of love
03:39:27 he was, you know, all the kind of love bombing side of it and the fact that it was so idilic. Yeah.
03:39:31 Yeah. That made it all the more difficult that it was ending. There was like the different the difference between what we'd had and what there was going to be
03:39:42 we'd had and what there was going to be if he left was was like a really massive gulf.
03:39:46 gulf. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and so given that he was saying that he still loved me and that he wanted to be together if he could sort his head out,
03:39:54 out, I felt it's worth trying to see if we can find a way through this. Yeah. Because what you've had is so remarkable. Yeah. And the love has been so profound
03:40:06 Yeah. And the love has been so profound and also you have all these things in common. So the likelihood of finding someone else. Yes. And and and you know we talked about a future together. So it was not just the loss of
03:40:18 just the loss of uh my existing relationship. It was the kind of dramatic loss of my future as well.
03:40:26 well. Um
03:40:30 I'm going to jump ahead a little bit. in time. But needless to say, throughout all this period, this behavior is escalating. There's this push and pull and this mixed messaging. Um, you refer
03:40:43 and this mixed messaging. Um, you refer to an incident uh on the 3rd of November 1991 where he
03:40:53 where he seemed very low and he told you that he had gone to Regent's Park the previous day and thrown all his mother's jewelry in the river.
03:41:00 river. Yes. Yes.
03:41:00 Yes. Yes. Because she felt he felt she'd never really loved him. And you say he was crying when he told you that. So is that an example of him appearing very visibly distressed? Yes.
03:41:12 Yes. He gave he gave a very convincing appearance of being a person in very deep distress. Um so at this stage you're taking stock
03:41:23 Um so at this stage you're taking stock of what you think's going on in his life that his mother's died, his father's died, his father's not really his dad. He's got a drink problem. I think at this stage she's told you he's been sacked.
03:41:34 sacked. Yes. I can't remember exactly when the sacking had done. I put it in my um That was the 31st of October 91. He told you that. Yes.
03:41:43 Yes. Um and now he's throwing all his mom's jewelry in the river. So again, it's escalating even more. Um
03:41:51 Um and
03:41:53 and obviously having a dramatic impact on your mental health if I understand correctly. Yes, it was extremely distressing and uh emotionally draining
03:42:06 distressing and uh emotionally draining um
03:42:09 stressful, exhausting. You refer to an incident um on the 6th of November. So this is when you had a very important hearing in relation to M
03:42:22 very important hearing in relation to M Liel. These were the strikeout proceedings. Yes. McDonald's had applied to strike out part of our case. And um no, sorry, they applied to strike out our whole case.
03:42:32 case. Yeah.
03:42:33 Yeah. Um and we needed to be able to we weren't represented, so we needed to be able to present our arguments um clearly and coherently in
03:42:44 arguments um clearly and coherently in court. Uh and he basically picked a fight over absolutely nothing. The hearing was due to be in the afternoon.
03:42:55 hearing was due to be in the afternoon. Yeah. Um, and in the morning he just picked a fight over absolutely nothing. It was he was making plaqueards in the front room for the anti- McDonald's march which was supposed to
03:43:07 McDonald's march which was supposed to be on the Saturday after that. Right.
03:43:10 Right. Uh, and
03:43:12 Uh, and he'd left some paper bits of paper like on the floor or whatever. And I just picked them up and put them in the bin. Yeah. Uh, and it was like there was just no reason to
03:43:25 it was like there was just no reason to pick a fight over that. Yeah.
03:43:26 Yeah. But he picked a fight over that. And I
03:43:32 he he accused me of kind of criticizing him essentially. And then I would say, "I'm not criticizing you. I'm just like helping by clearing up this stuff." And it just kind of blew up out of all proportion.
03:43:43 proportion. Yeah.
03:43:43 Yeah. And I became so distressed that I started shaking. Um, and I went into the bedroom. Um, was just kind of I sort of
03:43:54 bedroom. Um, was just kind of I sort of broken down in tears. Uh, and eventually I just sort of thought I'm I'm going to I'm going mad here. Um, and
03:44:06 here. Um, and I I I I
03:44:09 I I I I can't I can't quite remember, but essentially I asked I ended up asking him for a hug because I was just so distressed and he was the only person there.
03:44:19 there. Um, and I remember at the time thinking this is insane that I am asking for a hug from this person who is causing me so much distress.
03:44:30 causing me so much distress. Um
03:44:32 Um but that was the only source of comfort that I had at that time. Yeah. And then
03:44:38 And then it's only
03:44:41 it's only in retrospect that I you know that is the morning of the hearing that we had this strikeout application. It was absolutely critical that I had a clear head to be able to present the argument
03:44:53 head to be able to present the argument in court
03:44:54 in court and he completely derailed me. Um and it was only by good fortune that Kier Star Darmmer who had uh who hadn't been a originally hadn't been able to
03:45:06 been a originally hadn't been able to come to that hearing. Yeah.
03:45:07 Yeah. Um his CA the case that he was scheduled to deal with got pulled and so at the last minute he was able to come and he was he made an application to represent us and so
03:45:18 us and so we didn't get we did the case wasn't struck out. But if that hadn't happened, it is possible that we would have lost the case there and then.
03:45:29 and then. Yeah.
03:45:29 Yeah. So it was like a very high stakes Yeah. day. Day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um
03:45:42 you set out paragraph 461, the day of the anti McDonald's march, which was the 9th of November. That's three days after that hearing.
03:45:52 hearing. Um
03:45:54 Um he spent the night with you after that march.
03:45:58 march. Yeah. I think um there's there's an important part actually that shouldn't be missed. Yeah.
03:46:03 Yeah. Um about a couple of nights before when um he'd told me that he was going to be staying at um at a hostel. Yeah. Um, and I can't remember the
03:46:15 Yeah. Um, and I can't remember the reason why, but I I wanted to contact him for something and um,
03:46:21 um, I ended up phoning the hostel where he told me he'd been staying and discovering that he hadn't been staying there. And so I became really quite alarmed
03:46:32 alarmed about the fact that he'd lied to me, but also about what was going on. So that's the 7th of November, 1991, I understand. and you woke up feeling low. He wasn't there and
03:46:45 woke up feeling low. He wasn't there and you rang the youth hostel that night. Um, that's paragraph 458 of your witness statement. And what did you think might have happened to him when you heard that he hadn't stayed at the youth hostel? What were your thoughts?
03:46:58 What were your thoughts? I was just very worried initially that he was lying to me and what that meant. Yeah. Um
03:47:07 Yeah. Um that at that point in time that was that was my worry about why he was lying to me and where he was. Um you say in your witness statement the day after that you had a exam for your
03:47:18 day after that you had a exam for your training course. Yes.
03:47:20 Yes. Which you messed up? Yes.
03:47:23 Yes. And would you attribute that to again the impact that Yeah, I think it certainly contributed. Yes.
03:47:31 Yes. Um, when you spoke to Dyn about why he'd lied to you about staying at the youth host, what did he say?
03:47:41 Uh, he just made some kind of excuse about um not wanting to worry me and that he was walking the streets or something like that. And I understand this walking the
03:47:52 And I understand this walking the streets became a theme. Yes.
03:47:54 Yes. Over these latter Yes.
03:47:56 Yes. weeks. I mean actually it was it was something that he'd said very early on in fact in Burggoyne Road. There was a time when I went round there
03:48:07 There was a time when I went round there went round to his flat with Norman and we got there and he wasn't in and I remember thinking why is he not here
03:48:18 I remember thinking why is he not here and finding it quite strange and asking him the next time I saw him why he wasn't there. Yeah. and he said, "Oh, I was just walking the streets like um clearing my head or something like
03:48:29 clearing my head or something like that." But he didn't then use that uh excuse again until this period when he was portraying going through a breakdown, right? So the idea being he would just
03:48:42 right? So the idea being he would just pace all night around the streets. That's
03:48:44 That's which made me extremely worried for him. Yeah.
03:48:48 Yeah. Uh particularly in the middle of winter when you know the weather was very cold. Yeah.
03:48:53 Yeah. Um,
03:48:57 moving now to Yorkshire. Um,
03:49:02 Um, I understand that the lease on
03:49:08 Clyde Circus was coming to an end in November. Yes. I don't remember the exact dates. Um,
03:49:19 Um, I think towards you do set it out somewhere. I understand it was around the end of November, so you've been living there for a year. Um,
03:49:29 Um, and I understand that you and he had discussed what you were going to do next in terms of living arrangements. And yes, we'd been invited by Pete.
03:49:41 yes, we'd been invited by Pete. Yeah. who was on the small holding in Yorkshire. Um that the people who had been living in the caravan on the small holding were moving out. Yeah.
03:49:51 Yeah. And that if given that we really liked going up there to visit Yeah.
03:49:56 Yeah. Um and that we wanted to move to the countryside that if we wanted to give give it a bit of a taster. Yeah.
03:50:03 Yeah. We could go and live in the caravan. Um
03:50:07 Um for as long as we wanted really. And your witness, it's paragraph 468. Actually, you detail that on the 14th of November, you moved out of the flat
03:50:18 November, you moved out of the flat at Clyde Circus and drove uh the remainder of your belongings, including a box of Dyn's possessions, which we'll come to, in a higher van, up to the small holding.
03:50:29 small holding. Yes. Um, can I just say that I think it is important at this point that um, because Dyn denies moving to the caravan.
03:50:38 caravan. Um,
03:50:40 Um, and there is I have exhibited the postcard from Pete inviting us to move in.
03:50:47 move in. Uh, that is addressed to both of us at Clyde Circus which also illustrates that we were both living at Clyde Circus together. Yes, I can bring that up. Um so this is
03:50:58 Yes, I can bring that up. Um so this is UCPI 3980.
03:51:09 Um it's very heavily I don't know why that's happened but um um well let page two if we go to the second page I think it's his handwriting. didn't
03:51:20 I think it's his handwriting. didn't actually ask. Oh, is it it's it's privacy for but I don't know why they would need to be gisted rather than actually the text of the
03:51:29 of the I'm not sure. Um but here's the picture. So this is the caravan. That's the caravan we moved into. Um and then if we could go back to the gisted
03:51:38 gisted but also the address is you you say it's the handwriting. I just like
03:51:45 just like Yeah. Um, but yeah, we can see it's addressed to you both at Clyde Circus. Um, and he's written this. Dear Helen and John, this is not an attempt to put you off coming here. Just a picky to
03:51:56 you off coming here. Just a picky to show to your friends before leaving smelly old London. Even with snow like that all around, you can keep very cozy with the wood burner going. Privacy was up at the weekend. Shifted another van
03:52:08 up at the weekend. Shifted another van load of stuff out. Thanks for the new rocking chair and book collection. They go well together. Good luck with the Big Mac attack on Saturday. Um, see you soon, Love Pete. So, that's a reference
03:52:19 soon, Love Pete. So, that's a reference to the
03:52:20 to the the McDonald's demo. Yeah. Um, but yes, so it's addressed to both of you and he's referring to you moving up there.
03:52:29 up there. Yes.
03:52:35 Um, I'll bring up one other exhibit as well. If we could take that down please and bring up 39903.
03:52:46 Um this is
03:52:51 this is dated the 15th of November. And just the first bit it says, "Dear Helen and John, hope your move has gone successfully. We came over for a quick anniversary break but accompanied by lots of rain. It's
03:53:04 but accompanied by lots of rain. It's still very enjoyable. only wish we if we could go down.
03:53:10 So again that that it's from my parents and it's addressed to both of us at at the address in Yorkshire. Yeah. So we can see that that hasn't been redacted. There we go. So it's Helen Steel John Barker and that's the address
03:53:22 Steel John Barker and that's the address in Yorkshire. That's the caravan address.
03:53:26 address. So my parents knew that we were moving to the caravan together. And you I understand you dropped some possessions off at their house. Yes, that's right. On the way
03:53:37 Yes, that's right. On the way because we were moving into a caravan uh with the eventual aim of trying to get a place of our own. Yeah.
03:53:44 Yeah. Um some of the stuff that wouldn't fit in the caravan I left in my parents attic.
03:53:49 attic. Right.
03:53:50 Right. Um
03:53:52 Um and
03:53:54 and did they consider this again it's quite meaningful that you're moving in together to this place. This is a significant step in your relationship. Yes. They they thought we were intending to spend the rest of our lives together,
03:54:05 to spend the rest of our lives together, which is what Dyn had said and what I believed.
03:54:08 believed. Yeah. And we've seen from that earlier correspondence from your sister that your mom liked John Dyn. Yes.
03:54:16 Yes. Um you exhibit uh a youth hostel association membership renewal um from John Dyn. I'll just bring that up quickly. That's UCPI 39903.
03:54:31 Oh, uh, apologies. It's 399863.
03:54:41 39863. Apologies.
03:54:47 Um, I believe this is something that he left behind in his box of possessions. Um
03:54:55 Um well actually possibly because this came after because it's the renewal. Oh I see.
03:55:01 Oh I see. So it's it got sent a year after so he wouldn't have left it behind as such but um I kept it because he might come back. And the pertinent detail is that the
03:55:12 And the pertinent detail is that the address Mr. John Barker Thorro Hornweight Thston Sheffield and that's the address that's the caravan. Yes. So showing that he'd provided that to the fostering association. Yes.
03:55:24 to the fostering association. Yes. Um, we can take that down. Thank you. Um, now there's references in his correspondence to the box of possessions and the box is
03:55:37 the box of possessions and the box is getting mixed up. Yes,
03:55:39 Yes, we don't need to bring it up, but for the transcript, it's UCPI 39809. It's a letter he sent you on the 29th of February 92. And he refers to I have a box of slides
03:55:51 And he refers to I have a box of slides which I thought you had. I did have three boxes. Don't know whether I've lost two or whether you still have them. I do still have them have them. And indeed. And this is a box
03:56:05 indeed. And this is a box of poss. These are possessions that he moved up
03:56:08 moved up to the caravan. Yes.
03:56:10 Yes. Um you set out in your witness statement uh some of the contents of this box and that included other cover IDs used by Dines.
03:56:22 other cover IDs used by Dines. Um,
03:56:24 Um, so in addition to John Barker and Wayne Kadugan, the name he used when he was arrested at the pole tax riots, um, he told you um, and he told you
03:56:38 um, he told you um, and he told you about that one as we've established, but we understand that there were another two
03:56:44 two cover IDs or documents relating to two other one of them is redacted, so don't say it.
03:56:50 say it. Okay. Um, but there was a one-year passport and a driver's license in that name.
03:56:56 name. And there was another one in the name of Mark John Newell. There was a birth certificate and bank accounts. Yes.
03:57:03 Yes. Prior to finding those documents, did he say anything to you about those additional cover IDs?
03:57:11 I don't remember, although I do have a vague recollection
03:57:20 of that. He might have shown me the one-year passport at some some time, right? In one of those names. Yeah. Yeah.
03:57:29 Yeah. Oh, with the one-year passport would have been the redacted one. Sorry. Um, right. But just a vague recollection that he might have showed you that. Yes. I think
03:57:43 I think possibly
03:57:50 I think of it in relation to Burggoyne Road. So during that kind of period. Okay. And can you remember what he said about it
03:57:59 about it if anything when he showed it to you? I think it was in connection I think he said it was in connection with when he was on the run but not he didn't tell me that at the time. It was like afterwards
03:58:10 that at the time. It was like afterwards that he said he'd got it for that purpose or something like that. Okay.
03:58:13 Okay. For going on the run. Yes.
03:58:15 Yes. Around April 1990. Yes.
03:58:26 Um
03:58:31 moving into December.
03:58:36 I understand. Sorry. cuz I think um the other thing that hasn't come up is that the letter that he sent on the 3rd of December
03:58:47 of December Yeah.
03:58:47 Yeah. HS31.
03:58:49 HS31. Yeah.
03:58:49 Yeah. Where he basically explicitly says about Could Well, could you put it up? Yeah, I'll bring it up. Yeah. It's 39801.
03:59:03 It's postmark the 3rd of December 1991. It's dated the 29th of November 91. And he says, "My dearest darling, well,
03:59:15 And he says, "My dearest darling, well, it's a very long letter. Actually, it's five pages long. Is there one specific bit?" Yes, male. Um, when I left you at Thornroid, I firstly felt there was no need for me to go away.
03:59:27 go away. Um, yeah, there it is. Um, I felt okay when you rattled that little window and said goodbye. I wished I could have been swallowed up by a huge cavern in the ground. I felt so much of a walking
03:59:39 ground. I felt so much of a walking out yet again. Um he
03:59:47 there's no need for him to go away. He's saying he's moved to the caravan. Yeah.
03:59:53 Yeah. So when he says in his statement he didn't move to the caravan, it's another illustration of the fact that he he did move to the he did portray himself as moving to the caravan. Albeit that the
04:00:04 moving to the caravan. Albeit that the day after we moved there, he drove the higher van back and then phoned me and said, "Oh, I need to sort my head out. I'm going to France." Right. But he gave you, but he hadn't told me that he was going
04:00:16 but he hadn't told me that he was going to do that. So, I assumed that he was moving to the caravan with me and was going to stay there as did Pete and the other people who lived at that house. Well, hence the moving of the
04:00:27 Well, hence the moving of the possessions, hence the postcard. Yes. And if I understand your evidence, so when he drove the van back to London, even at that stage, you thought he was going to come back again. Yes. Yes.
04:00:38 Yes. Yes. Shortly afterwards, I was taken by surprise when he phoned saying actually he was going to go to France.
04:00:46 France. Um
04:00:47 Um and I was upset by it again. Um,
04:00:53 Um, and you say that your diary records that on the 8th of December, 1991, he rang you at 7 p.m. and said he was working on the Channel Tunnel. Yes.
04:01:02 Yes. And then he wrote me letters where he talked in detail about working on the Channel Tunnel, right? Yes. Um, and again, you exhibit those. Um, he submits a report about you
04:01:15 those. Um, he submits a report about you around this time. Um, we'll bring it up quickly. It's UCPI 26779. This is the 11th of December 1991. We'll probably come back to this report
04:01:27 We'll probably come back to this report in another context, but just for immediate purposes. Paragraph one. Anarchist Helen Steel has recently left London and moved to Thston, South Yorkshire,
04:01:38 Yorkshire, a house owned by her longstanding friends. and paragraph four he writes about your dwindling activities essentially and
04:01:49 dwindling activities essentially and activism. Whether Steele's departure from near full-time activism becomes permanent remains to be seen. However, it may be significant to note that she attended only one meeting of Haring Gay Solidarity Group, the local anarchist
04:02:00 Solidarity Group, the local anarchist organization during its eight months existence. Many of those involved in organizing this group have been long-term associates of still and include a privacy privacy and Andrew Clark. Additionally, she only continued
04:02:11 Clark. Additionally, she only continued to support the London Greenpeace Collective because of its involvement with the anti- McDonald's campaign and as a sense of duty towards a group with rapidly dwindling support and a bleak future within the London anarchist
04:02:23 future within the London anarchist movement.
04:02:26 movement. Um, so making it very clear there that you're not involved in activism really. Well, I mean the other aspect of this is that I
04:02:36 that I because of the nature of our relationship and his love bombing. Yeah.
04:02:40 Yeah. Um basically I was spending much much more time with him. Right.
04:02:44 Right. And less time involved with politics and um seeing other people. Yeah. So your focus had shifted essentially. And you say other people
04:02:55 essentially. And you say other people were you spending less time with your other friends? Yes. Yes. I was spending a lot of time alone with him. Um, you know, which perhaps contributed to my
04:03:08 failing to see what was going on. Um, you had isolated. The relationship had led you to isolate. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't complete isolation, but I definitely didn't see
04:03:19 isolation, but I definitely didn't see friends.
04:03:20 friends. Yeah.
04:03:21 Yeah. Uh, with the same frequency that I had seen them before. Um, can I just say that paragraph five is deliberately deceptive there. Um, I hadn't been planning to move
04:03:34 hadn't been planning to move um since 1988. Yeah. Uh, we arranged the move after um Pete invited us to live there, but
04:03:45 um Pete invited us to live there, but that was off the back of Dyn suggesting that he wanted to get us a place together to live. So a claim that since 1988 you've been arranging your I mean that would be
04:03:56 arranging your I mean that would be quite a
04:03:58 quite a long time. Yes.
04:04:01 Yes. So that's untrue. Yes.
04:04:03 Yes. Um thank you. We can take that down now please. Um
04:04:14 you refer also in your witness statement. But I don't propose bringing it up to
04:04:19 it up to his contacting you while he's supposedly working on the Channel Tunnel and to your receiving a letter which again purported to be from Aunt Dorothy and that he asked you to open it and read it
04:04:31 that he asked you to open it and read it to him down the phone. Yes.
04:04:33 Yes. And that this contained information about the sale of his parents' house in New Zealand. Yes.
04:04:39 Yes. So again, this is something that he drafted.
04:04:42 drafted. Yeah. got sent to New Zealand and then asked
04:04:46 asked his mother-in-law because I didn't know it was his mother-in-law. Yeah.
04:04:50 Yeah. Um I thought it was his aunt um to send this letter to where I was living. Yeah.
04:05:00 Yeah. Because he was supposedly he was living there as well. I thought he was living there as well. um in order to convince me that his lies
04:05:12 um in order to convince me that his lies were true. That's like the lengths he went to.
04:05:15 went to. Yeah.
04:05:16 Yeah. Were, you know, just quite astounding. That's quite an elaborate deceit. And enlisting his mother his own mother-in-law. Yeah. And his own mother-in-law to write to you. I mean, it begs the
04:05:28 to write to you. I mean, it begs the question what he told them about you, but again, we can't he's not giving evidence. So, yes. Well, my understanding was that he just
04:05:37 just drafted what he wanted them to write and that they then Yeah.
04:05:40 Yeah. And I don't I got the impression they didn't really ask questions about it. They just did what he'd asked.
04:05:48 And again, I understand from your witness statement that the sale of the house, he had led you to believe on previous occasions that he would be using the money from that sale to buy land with
04:05:59 money from that sale to buy land with you. Yes. And for your future together. Yes. To have children together. Yeah. Um, now we know from a memorandum dated the 17th of December 1991, we
04:06:11 dated the 17th of December 1991, we don't need to bring it up, but it's MPS0527449.
04:06:15 It's from HN67 that DS Dyn ceased field duties officially on the 8th of December 1991.
04:06:27 1991. And this also says he then engaged clerically in in the SDS office until the 29th of December 1991. But the official end date as set out the 8th of
04:06:38 official end date as set out the 8th of December.
04:06:39 December. Yes. Although I would say that um as far as I know he did not reappear on the London scene after
04:06:50 on the London scene after um we moved to the caravan in Yorkshire. Right. Um, and I think I would have heard about it if he had. And I don't think he would have gone back either because word would have got back to me. Yeah.
04:07:01 Yeah. That he was claiming to be in France when actually people were seeing him in London. So, of course, although that's his end date, the 8th of December, in reality, he left the field
04:07:12 December, in reality, he left the field the date that we moved to the caravan. I understand that. Okay. So all he was really doing in terms of his deployment from that stage on was the
04:07:24 deployment from that stage on was the time he spent with you in the caravan and talking to you but beyond that there was no other Yeah. Nobody else activity that you're aware of. Nobody else saw him and and I as I say I don't think he would have risked it
04:07:36 don't think he would have risked it because if word had got back to me that he'd been seen in London I I would have been well why why were you telling me you're in France if you're in London? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
04:07:48 you're in London? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But that would make his story unravel. Um, very quickly, I'm very aware of the time. I'm just going to address
04:07:59 time. I'm just going to address Canterbury. Right.
04:08:02 Right. Um, we know that Dyn in his witness statement says he does not recall having any contact with you following his withdrawal. Yeah. Um,
04:08:16 you say in your witness statement that he contacted you on Monday the 16th of December.
04:08:21 December. Yes.
04:08:21 Yes. And he said he was working night shifts. He had a night off on Wednesday. Then he rang again and said actually he had the Friday off. Yes.
04:08:29 Yes. And that you both arranged to meet at Canterbury station on Friday the 20th of December. Yes. 1991. Um, and you say you were shocked by his appearance.
04:08:40 appearance. Yes. because he was clean shaven up till that point. He had had some form of a mullet mullet. Um y
04:08:49 y and then and and u you know a beard as well. Yeah. Uh and then on that occasion he was clean shaven and had short hair. So I
04:09:00 clean shaven and had short hair. So I was quite shocked by the the change in appearance. Uh well there's a photograph that we can look at in due course which shows that appearance and it is marketkedly different. Yes. Um, I understand you were in
04:09:11 Yes. Um, I understand you were in Canterbury together for two nights. Yes.
04:09:15 Um, and we had sex. You had sex more than once? Yes. And I'm quite sure it was initiated by him.
04:09:22 by him. Were you using protection on this occasion?
04:09:25 occasion? I can't remember. Okay. Um,
04:09:30 Okay. Um, you gave him two books on bererement. Yes, because he'd been seeming to go through a breakdown. Uh,
04:09:40 Uh, and it seemed he was attributing at least part of it to the death of his parents and feeling alone in the world. And so I thought, you know, I tried to talk to him, but I
04:09:51 you know, I tried to talk to him, but I felt out of my depth. Yeah.
04:09:53 Yeah. And so I thought, well, maybe it would help him to read a book about bereavement. And so I gave him books. Again, it's a kind, thoughtful thing to do. You thought it might help. You went
04:10:04 do. You thought it might help. You went out of your way. Yeah. to get these things for him that you thought might help. Um,
04:10:11 help. Um, there's an exhibit 39803 dated the 25th of December 1991. I'll bring it up very briefly. Page three.
04:10:22 three. Um,
04:10:26 hello beautiful. What a great few days. Never knew Canterbury was so nice. Or was it the company? My body is recovering slowly. The soreness has subsided.
04:10:38 subsided. I rang you at home on Sunday night and missed you both times. I don't think we need the rest of it, but that is a reference clearly to your both having been in Canterbury and to having sex.
04:10:49 and to having sex. Well, I was going to say, so this reference to his body recovering slowly in the soreness. Is that what you understood that to mean? Yeah.
04:10:58 Yeah. I don't know what else it would refer to.
04:10:59 to. No. Um,
04:11:02 No. Um, and towards the bottom of that page, he says, "Have you tried the gym jams yet? Bet you look real sexy." If we could just go over the page.
04:11:15 Bet you look real sexy in them. Core, thanks for coming down to see me, lovely. It was really great seeing you. Lots of hugs, kisses, mushies, and much more. Keep warm, keep well, take care of
04:11:27 more. Keep warm, keep well, take care of that beautiful little body. Um, so again, that's highly sexualized at a time when he's withdrawn from the
04:11:38 at a time when he's withdrawn from the field.
04:11:39 field. Yes.
04:11:41 Yes. And when he says in his witness statement he had ended the relationship. Yes. And Yes. And in terms of his behavior towards me, he's again
04:11:53 his behavior towards me, he's again giving completely conflicting information about whether or not he wants the relationship to continue. I mean that shows the tone of that is certainly of someone who
04:12:04 certainly of someone who Yes.
04:12:04 Yes. appears keen. Yes. Well, I mean now I can see that he was keen on exploiting me for sex. But yeah.
04:12:13 yeah. Um
04:12:15 Um just finally before I'm going to end after I just bring this up, but it's just to show his appearance. Um this is UCPI 39864.
04:12:27 I know this was taken in January at the caravan. We'll explore that in due course, but I mean he's obviously pulling a very strange expression, but
04:12:38 a very strange expression, but well, he's blowing out the candles on his
04:12:41 his not his birthday, but his cover identity's birthday. On John Barker's Yes. On John Barker's birthday. Yes. But we can see there he's clean shaven. Yes.
04:12:50 Yes. His hair is very different. And that's how he appeared at Canterbury station. Yes.
04:12:54 Yes. Um, and the explanation he gave you for that was what? Just that he fancied to change.
04:12:59 change. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
04:13:01 Okay. He just Yeah. I mean, I I didn't like have a strong preference either way, but um he it was the thing that struck me was just how dramatically different the
04:13:13 was just how dramatically different the appearance was. His appearance was um and that's why I remarked on it and and he just said, "Yeah, I I fancied a change."
04:13:22 change." Well, also We know that they were advised not to appear to members of the public and to people that they dissociated with looking clean shaven. So it's a strange
04:13:35 looking clean shaven. So it's a strange Yes.
04:13:36 Yes. trade craft fail as it were. Yes. Fairly dramatic one. Yes. Yeah. Um, I think at that point, sir, given the time,
04:13:47 given the time, um, we do still have quite a lot to cover, but I know we have time allocated for that.
04:13:53 for that. Yes. Um, I'm going to ask you to return to give evidence on Wednesday afternoon. I understand you've agreed to do that. Yes.
04:14:01 Yes. Thank you. Could I ask you to reflect between now and then on on a question I'm about to put to you now? Okay.
04:14:09 Okay. Um,
04:14:09 Um, do I need to make a note? No. No. No, don't don't bother making it not. I don't don't think you'll need to. Um, I've heard lots of evidence from other male undercover officers uh about
04:14:22 male undercover officers uh about relationships that they have had with women and on the whole uh they include an element of genuine uh to call it love
04:14:34 an element of genuine uh to call it love is perhaps mistaken but genuine that's what they say. No, bear with me a moment. Yeah. Okay. Um uh they have said whether truthfully or not um that there was an
04:14:48 truthfully or not um that there was an element of genuine affection on their part for the woman with whom they had the deceitful sexual relationship. Um
04:14:59 Um the impression I have from your evidence is that you think that uh John Dyn had no such affection for you and that it was entirely cynical exploitation. Um
04:15:13 was entirely cynical exploitation. Um yes
04:15:15 yes would you reflect upon that and and um on Wednesday tell me uh whe whether whether I got whether I've got your evidence right or not. That's absolutely right. I spent a long
04:15:26 That's absolutely right. I spent a long time thinking about it. Um there were seeing his emotional state uh and the things that he wrote to me um
04:15:37 uh and the things that he wrote to me um and indeed when I saw the letter from that he wrote in support of Chitty plus the letters that he sent that gave me his real father's name and his
04:15:50 me his real father's name and his parents' real address. That made me think maybe there was an element of genuine feelings. But no, I don't think that
04:16:01 feelings. But no, I don't think that now. I think he enjoyed the power that he had over me and he enjoyed exploiting me for sex. Yes. And I also think that all the other officers who pretended
04:16:12 all the other officers who pretended that they loved and cared for the women that they deceived into relationships didn't actually genuinely love those women.
04:16:25 If they had loved them, they wouldn't have done that. They wouldn't have deceived them. They wouldn't have exploited them. All I can afraid, I'd say, in response
04:16:36 All I can afraid, I'd say, in response to that, is that human affairs are perhaps more complicated than sometimes we allow. No, I I think I think that they enjoyed the power that they had and I think they enjoyed sexually exploiting
04:16:48 I think they enjoyed sexually exploiting the women who they exploited. Your answer has been very clear and okay
04:16:56 okay and I'm grateful to you for giving it to me.
04:16:59 me. I have talked about and I it's caused it's caused me a lot of confusion. It's called caused the other women a lot of confusion, but it's totally apparent now that actually they
04:17:11 totally apparent now that actually they were just exploiting us. So you see it, you know, they'll say, "Oh, yeah, well, I really cared about her and loved her." And then they're filing a report on her saying, you know, something.
04:17:23 saying, you know, something. You don't do that to someone you love. You You also don't deceive someone you love.
04:17:32 I think I'm going to leave it there. Okay,
04:17:35 Okay, we'll resume on Wednesday afternoon. Thank you. Thank you very much.