Morning session of Tranche 3 Phase 3, Day 5, in which Helen Steel gives evidence about her deceptive long-term relationship with undercover Special Demonstration Squad officer John Dines (referred to in captions as "John Dyn"), who infiltrated London Greenpeace from late 1987. Counsel takes Steel through SDS reports, personal letters, photographs and police custody records tracing Dines' calculated emotional manipulation, from lying about his age and using his van to learn activists' addresses, through a fabricated bereavement, a second fake family death and a £300 loan, to his eventual disappearance as a fugitive after a pole-tax demonstration arrest. The session ends with Steel visibly distressed recounting Dines' final, most manipulative letters, prompting an early break for lunch.
00:46:27 Good morning everybody. Uh this morning and this afternoon we are going to hear the evidence of Helen Steel. Uh the evidence will be transmitted over the live link but only after 15 minutes have
00:46:40 live link but only after 15 minutes have elapsed. Those with mobile devices may use them for uh telling the outside world what they have heard, but only after 15 minutes have elapsed since the
00:46:51 after 15 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're describing. They may not be used for recording or photography. There will be a small change in our usual uh periods of sitting. Uh there [snorts] will be two
00:47:03 sitting. Uh there [snorts] will be two breaks in the morning and two in the afternoon uh each of 10 minutes I I hope. And
00:47:12 hope. And m still if at any stage you want a pause in the proceedings and a break just say so and we'll have one. Thank you. A respond please. Thank you.
00:47:25 A respond please. Thank you. Please stand. Please repeat after me. I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give
00:47:37 that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but truth
00:47:42 truth and nothing but the truth
00:47:51 steel please provide your full name um Helen Marie Steel you provide provided a third witness statement to the inquiry uh dated the
00:48:02 statement to the inquiry uh dated the 8th of May 2026. Are you familiar with the contents of that statement? Yes.
00:48:07 Yes. And can you confirm that the contents of that statement are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes.
00:48:14 Yes. Thank you. Um starting first, Miss Still, just by way of background, uh London Greenpeace. This is the group uh meetings of which
00:48:25 This is the group uh meetings of which you attended when you met John Dyn for the first time. We established in the tranch 2 hearings that you started attending London
00:48:36 that you started attending London Greenpeace meetings in late 1986 early 1987.
00:48:41 1987. Yes.
00:48:41 Yes. And at that time you were 21 years old. Yes.
00:48:46 Yes. You said that you were a pretty regular attendee from that point on until your attendance tailed off towards your leaving London in December 91. Then you stopped attending altogether until you
00:48:57 stopped attending altogether until you moved back to London in 1993. Yes.
00:49:04 You say, Miss Still in your third witness statement that you met John Dyn when he started attending London Green Peace meetings in late 1987. That's right.
00:49:15 That's right. Um, his first report on London Greenpeace is dated the 27th of October 1987,
00:49:23 1987, but you say in your witness statement, you think he started attending a few weeks before that? Yes. I mean, I can't I don't have a specific memory of the
00:49:35 I don't have a specific memory of the first meeting he attended, but my impression was he started soon a little bit sooner than that. And putting providing just a little bit of context
00:49:47 providing just a little bit of context um in your charge 2 evidence you described London Greenpeace as an eclectic mix of characters and issues. You said that the general meetings the weekly meetings were attended by about
00:49:59 weekly meetings were attended by about 10 to 15 people and that the public meetings which were monthly uh were attended by about 20 to 30 people. Yes.
00:50:09 Yes. You said that meetings involve discussion on a wide range of issues and campaigns run in a largely non sectarian way with individuals free to support campaigns and protest they like rather
00:50:20 campaigns and protest they like rather than tow a party line. Yes, that was what I liked about the group.
00:50:24 group. Sure.
00:50:24 Sure. Yeah.
00:50:25 Yeah. Um, and you say that discussions and campaigns range from environmental issues, peace and anti-uclear protests, anti- capitalist protests, campaigns against racism and sexism, justice
00:50:37 against racism and sexism, justice campaigns, workplace struggles. You said that animal rights was just one of many campaigns and definitely not the beall and endall of the group at the time you were involved. Yes.
00:50:48 Yes. You also said that London Greenpeace was involved in campaigning for gay rights and supported the campaign against clause 28. Yes.
00:50:56 Yes. So a wide range of issues. How old were you, Mile when John Dyn started attending the meetings? I was 22.
00:51:09 What did Dyn tell you about himself when you first [snorts] came across him? Um he said he was from New Zealand. Well, he I mean it's hard to remember exactly
00:51:22 he I mean it's hard to remember exactly what he told me at which particular point, but essentially he was he was born in the UK but had moved to New Zealand as a child. Uh and then had moved back and he said initially he was
00:51:35 moved back and he said initially he was living in a camper van on the South Bank. Um and then I think all his possessions were stolen or something. Um,
00:51:43 Um, right.
00:51:45 right. He said he was uh
00:51:49 uh well I I remember he I thought he was 5 years older than me whereas in fact he was 10 years older than me. Yeah.
00:51:54 Yeah. I subsequently found out. Right. So you thought he was 27. Yes.
00:51:58 Yes. But in fact he was 32. Yes.
00:52:02 Yes. Um
00:52:06 you say in your witness statement that when he first attended London Grey's meetings thereafter he started to attend pretty regularly. Yes.
00:52:16 Yes. So weekly. Um yeah I mean I I wouldn't want to say that he turned up every single week but yeah.
00:52:25 yeah. Um
00:52:29 Norman Blair in his witness statement at paragraph 3.25 described him as being overtly friendly and a bit of a tough guy but useful at fixing stuff and he
00:52:42 guy but useful at fixing stuff and he had a van. Do you agree with that description? [laughter]
00:52:49 Um he he was certainly friendly. Yes. And I mean I don't think I knew he was useful at fixing stuff until later on. Um that wasn't my initial impression.
00:53:02 Um that wasn't my initial impression. Um
00:53:03 Um but he would offer to pe to drive people home from the meetings uh in a way that seemed helpful at the time but actually subsequently you know we realized he was doing that in order to find out where we
00:53:15 doing that in order to find out where we all lived. Yeah. So um we I'm not going to go into great detail today about the activities he participated in, but just as a general point, he
00:53:27 general point, he presented himself as someone who was keen to get involved in the group's campaigning activities. Is that accurate?
00:53:32 accurate? Yes. I mean, he got very actively involved in the group's campaign against the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. um he was one of a
00:53:43 World Bank. um he was one of a small subgroup of people that um prepared a leaflet on the subject and organized protests, you know, repetited the Bank of England. Yeah.
00:53:52 Yeah. Um and uh on one occasion we occupied the World Bank as well at his suggestion. Yeah.
00:54:01 Um yeah, I'll look at that. I'll come to that in due course. Um, this quote is taken from DCI HN86's request for John Dyn to
00:54:12 DCI HN86's request for John Dyn to receive a commendation. Um, and he says the reference, I won't bring it up, but the reference is MPS0726964.
00:54:22 It's page 10. He in that claims that John Dyn presented as a street hardened activist to whom criminal activity is the main means of income.
00:54:35 the main means of income. Is that how he presented? No. Um at the time I mean he later on he talked about being arrested on the protests in New Zealand against the um
00:54:47 protests in New Zealand against the um South African uh rugby tour. Um, but I don't think that came up initially, but no, he talked about working as a kitchen fitter.
00:54:59 as a kitchen fitter. Um, and
00:55:02 Um, and then working as a on roof, building work and on roofs, right?
00:55:09 right? Um, moving now, M still to Oh, and before I forget, sorry, in terms of his involvement in London Greenpeace, he also became the treasurer, right? Yes. and he regularly also um
00:55:21 right? Yes. and he regularly also um attended sessions like answering letters and he was very very actively involved with the group. Yeah. And actually you've helpfully disclosed some of the meeting notes from the McDonald's private investigators
00:55:34 the McDonald's private investigators which show him in those letter writing sess sessions letter answering sessions which we'll come to. Yes. Um, [clears throat] moving now, Miss Still, to how your friendship
00:55:46 Miss Still, to how your friendship developed. Um, you say in your witness statement that you attended a number of protests and also social events with Mr. Dyn. Um,
00:55:58 and also social events with Mr. Dyn. Um, and you say that you recall on at least two occasions, um, August 1988 and I imagine probably August 89 when the grouse shooting season took place that
00:56:09 grouse shooting season took place that you attended SABS of grouse shoots with him in the north of England. Yes, he volunteered to drive people up to the north of England, right, to take part in the um, sabbing the
00:56:22 to take part in the um, sabbing the grass shoot. Um, and you say that the nature of that activity meant that you spent lots of time together. The activists would spend lots of time
00:56:33 activists would spend lots of time together and would stay overnight. Yes. I mean, you had the whole journey up there where you're all chatting and and then Yeah. you all spending the night together in like sleeping bags in a in a room. So,
00:56:45 sleeping bags in a in a room. So, Sure.
00:56:45 Sure. You know, people are up late chatting. Yeah. So, it's like a bonding Yeah. experience. Um, I'd like to bring up Dyn's report from that first GR shoot. It's MPS0743632.
00:57:00 This is a report dated the 16th of August 1988.
00:57:13 [snorts] Um, paragraph two reads, "Throughout Thursday, the 11th of August, hunt sabotur groups from Aberestworth, Bradford, Liverpool, London, Manchester, and Nottingham gathered in Leeds in
00:57:24 and Nottingham gathered in Leeds in preparation for the sabotage of the start of the ground shooting season on the following day." Then paragraph three, please.
00:57:35 Leadsbased hunt savvars who are mainly students at the local university provided accommodation for many of the 75 anti-hunt supporters who had traveled to the north of England for their annual protest against what they interpret as a
00:57:47 protest against what they interpret as a cruel carnage on the moors. The coordination of the mass sab fell upon the hunt sabotur association committee members then privacy reductions. Um so m still that's a reference when he talks
00:57:59 still that's a reference when he talks about providing local students providing accommodation to what you just referred to and in your witness statement when you say you would all sleep in sleeping bags on the floor
00:58:10 all sleep in sleeping bags on the floor of other people's houses. Yeah, I'm not sure they were all students, but whatever it doesn't really matter. Yes, exactly. Helpful people. Um if we
00:58:21 Yes, exactly. Helpful people. Um if we he he makes uh he comments on your activities, Miss Still, um in paragraph six. It's on page three, please.
00:58:31 Um, so it seems that what happens on this GR shoot is the uh people are there's a roadblock put in place and activists are prevented from
00:58:42 place and activists are prevented from leaving the butts. I'll read what he says. So paragraph six, several hours of waiting near shooting butts. Oh, and I should say sorry that this is on the 13th of August that he's saying this is
00:58:53 13th of August that he's saying this is happening. Um, several hours of waiting near shooting butts on the gunnerside estate proved to be too boring, too cold, and too wet for many of the sabotars. And at midday, several attempted to leave by the moore, only to
00:59:05 attempted to leave by the moore, only to find their exit block by police. This action prevented activists moving to other areas of the moore to which shooters may have been heading. Most savurs were eventually drawn to the roadblock where, in the main, they
00:59:17 roadblock where, in the main, they peacefibly protested about what they felt was their unlawful detention in inverted commas. The most viciferous exchange between SABS and police involved the London-based anarchist
00:59:28 involved the London-based anarchist activist Helen Steel. Her dire tribe of abuse would normally have resulted in her arrest. However, on this occasion, police were more tolerant than necessary and perhaps to avoid any heightening of
00:59:40 and perhaps to avoid any heightening of tensions amongst the now restricted saboturs, they chose to ignore her taunts and abuse. Still, however, later compiled copious notes concerning the incident and voiced her intention of laying a complaint against the police
00:59:52 laying a complaint against the police for unlawful detention. Her performance was videoed by fellow sabotur privacy from Coventry. Um, would you like to comment on the accuracy of that account? Yeah. No, it is completely inaccurate.
01:00:04 Yeah. No, it is completely inaccurate. Well, sorry, not completely inaccurate, but the diet tribe of abuse is completely inaccurate. I challenged their behavior because their behavior was unlawful. They were essentially um
01:00:15 was unlawful. They were essentially um they'd set up a roadblock which actually um I don't know if it's possible to put up um
01:00:22 up um the article uh yeah the newspaper article. Yes, if we could bring up please. It's uh UCPI
01:00:31 uh UCPI 39LE8.
01:00:35 [snorts]
01:00:40 Yeah. So, um, in this picture that is John Dyn's on the right of the photograph, right? So, looking off to the he's looking off to the side.
01:00:51 he's looking off to the side. Yeah.
01:00:52 Yeah. Look out which side it is. I know.
01:00:54 I know. Um, and what you see there is the there's two police vehicles basically nose tonose with policemen between them. Yeah.
01:01:03 Yeah. And they were preventing us from leaving the mall.
01:01:06 the mall. Right. They claimed that was to prevent a breach of the peace, but it was completely ludicrous. We were being detained on the moore. They had no right to do that. And so I was arguing
01:01:17 to do that. And so I was arguing strongly that they shouldn't be doing it. Right. Um and in fact in terms of the reference, I did take copious notes. Um and I did lies with the hunt saboturs
01:01:28 Um and I did lies with the hunt saboturs association and I know that some kind of complaint did go in. I didn't p pursue it personally but it was a kind of collective collective complaint from the hunt saboturs association about the unlawful
01:01:41 saboturs association about the unlawful detention on the moors. Okay, thank you. Um if we could take that down please. Um if we could just go back to the report 070743632
01:01:52 and paragraph 8 of that report please. Thank you. Um so he refers here to the following day. So sorry I'm not I sorry if I've confused things. I think this is
01:02:03 if I've confused things. I think this is the 13th of August. The previous day was the 12th of August. So the following day he says saboturs which now included a group from West London led by privacy and privacy went to crowd and more in North Darbasha. This mo was the only
01:02:16 North Darbasha. This mo was the only designated area for grow shooting in the vicinity. Saboturs occupied all the shooting butts from about 7:00 a.m. until 400 p.m. and their presence prevented any shooting taking place, if indeed any had been planned. Other than
01:02:30 indeed any had been planned. Other than the
01:02:33 destruction by saboturs of signs indicating where shoots were to take place, the day passed off without incident. Most sabotars departed from the mall satisfied that there have been
01:02:44 the mall satisfied that there have been no shooting during their two-day presence, but frustrated at not citing and harassing and abusing shooters. That's his interpretation. That's not that's not you know the the reason
01:02:55 that's not you know the the reason people were there were to stop grass being shot. So yeah,
01:02:58 yeah, people were happy that we'd succeeded. Um you referred in your first witness statement, Mile, to dismantling some grass shooting butts with dimes, right? Do you think it was on this occasion?
01:03:10 Do you think it was on this occasion? Um,
01:03:12 Um, I don't think it was on that occasion. No. Um,
01:03:16 No. Um, do you think it was the following year?
01:03:22 I am not sure. Um, that's fine. You can reflect on it, but if you can't, you can't recall. Don't worry. Um, I I don't think it was on a big event. I
01:03:34 I I don't think it was on a big event. I think it was on a small a smaller thing. Um,
01:03:39 Um, but I might be wrong about that. Actually, I I don't have a I I actually have a photograph. Yeah.
01:03:45 Yeah. Of the butt, which Dyn is in, except that the only thing showing are people's arms, right?
01:03:52 right? Um, so you wouldn't be able to identify him, but I know that he's in that photo. And that's pretty much the only memory I've got of it. Okay.
01:03:59 Okay. I can't remember where or when it was. Could you so the photo but you don't have a date for that photograph for example if we okay no never mind
01:04:10 never mind um
01:04:12 um after this event we can take that down now thank you um so is it correct to say that after that you were a little closer after that experience of
01:04:23 experience of um well the friendship our friendship was closer yeah um you say in your witness statement that
01:04:31 that your diary after that grouse sab records several social interactions with him outside the London re peace meetings uh and as examples of those you site
01:04:44 uh and as examples of those you site going to the pub with him and others driving you home from the pub inviting you round to his house for a meal and to a party in a squat on Dunmere Road with other London green
01:04:57 on Dunmere Road with other London green peace activists yes
01:04:59 yes and you provide lots of illuminating exhibits regarding the types of activities you two undertook together or as part of a group in the late 1980s.
01:05:11 as part of a group in the late 1980s. I'd like to bring up right
01:05:13 right a few of those. Um, so an example of you two participating in campaigning activity together, if we could bring up please UCPI 39883.
01:05:34 Um I understand missile that this is the Broadwater Farm demonstration of the 11th of December 1988. Is that correct? Yes. It's a picket of wormwood scrubs in
01:05:46 Yes. It's a picket of wormwood scrubs in support of the Tottenham 3 who were um cleared at the court of appeal later on.
01:05:52 on. Yeah. And I understand we looked at this in the because HN25 actually reported on this protest. I understand. And we we looked at this in T2. Mr. Morris has been privacy redacted on the left hand side, but he's he's in the
01:06:04 the left hand side, but he's he's in the photo as well. Okay, that's good to know. Um, and is that John Dyn's there at the forefront in
01:06:10 in on the right with the blue beanie on? Yeah.
01:06:13 Yeah. Um, thank you. If we could take that down.
01:06:16 down. Um, if we could bring up please 3984. That's UCPI.
01:06:25 Um, I understand that this is a dinner outing um from the 18th of January, 1989. Is that accurate?
01:06:36 January, 1989. Is that accurate? Yes. Well, if that's what it says in my statement, that'll be accurate because I did look it up. Yeah. Um, and we can see that's John Dyn clearly. Uh, with Paul Gravit and Belinda Harvey.
01:06:47 with Paul Gravit and Belinda Harvey. Yeah. Um, and just to say in relation to this, this kind of illustrates Dyn is pretending he didn't know anything about um, anybody else's relationships. And in fact, he knew that Belinda had had a
01:06:59 fact, he knew that Belinda had had a relationship with Bob Lambert. She talked about it in his company on a number of occasions and and you know, as she said, they she'd met them both together. Yeah. So,
01:07:10 together. Yeah. So, um I was going to ask you, I mean I understand at this remove it's difficult, but this dinner taking place on the 18th of January 1989, that's very soon after Bob Robinson apparently ran
01:07:22 soon after Bob Robinson apparently ran off to escape uh arrest. Um, can you recall, Miss Still, any mention of that or discussion of that at this male?
01:07:36 of that at this male? Uh, I couldn't say we specifically discussed that here. I'm quite sure that Belinda would have talked about missing Bob, but whether we'd have said anything
01:07:47 Bob, but whether we'd have said anything about him being on the run, I don't know.
01:07:51 know. Um, we can take that down now, please. And if we could bring up please UCPI 39885.
01:08:04 M still I understand that this was taken on the 9th of May 1989 at Finton by sea. Yes. Um sorry. So Dyn had volunteered to take a group
01:08:16 So Dyn had volunteered to take a group of us to the seaside for a day out. Um and
01:08:21 and um that's Andrew Clark with him there. Andrew Clark was among the group who who went to the seaside with him. Right.
01:08:31 Right. Thank you. Um if we could take that down.
01:08:32 down. We just spent the day on the beach and then I think went to amusement arcade or something like that. So a nice pleasant day. Yeah.
01:08:39 Yeah. Yeah. With a small group of friends. Yeah. But it it was at his instigation and kind of as I say he drove us all.
01:08:50 and kind of as I say he drove us all. Um
01:08:51 Um moving on now to a shift in your relationship. Um
01:09:00 Um you say at paragraph 112 of your third witness statement, M still that prior to your relationship with Mr. becoming intimate in May 1990 that he
01:09:12 becoming intimate in May 1990 that he targeted you and subjected you to a prolonged period of emotional manipulation in order to draw you closer to him and to make you invested in and feel responsible for his well-being and
01:09:24 feel responsible for his well-being and also to make you believe that he cared about you and your well-being. I'd like to look at a few specific examples of that.
01:09:36 examples of that. You've already referred to it. Um, you say at paragraph 105 that at some point he offered to drive people home after the meetings in his van and you say this became a regular occurrence and
01:09:47 became a regular occurrence and continued for a long time. Um, in deep deception mist you it suggested that this soon started sorry this started soon after he started attending the LGP
01:09:59 soon after he started attending the LGP meetings. Is that accurate? Um, yeah. I I can't I don't think I could pin down now exactly when it started, but I think it wasn't long after he started coming to the meeting.
01:10:12 after he started coming to the meeting. So, if I understand correctly, after the meetings, everyone would pile in and he would drop them all off door. Yes.
01:10:20 Yes. And most of the people that were in the group lived in Hackne. So, he used to go via Hackne, drop everyone off, and then I'd be like the last person dropped off in Haringay. Um
01:10:32 in Haringay. Um I understand it's it's difficult to recall. Do you think he was living in Brixton at this stage? No. Right. But he was living in Hackne at this stage. Okay, fine. Um Okay. So, even though he lived in
01:10:44 Um Okay. So, even though he lived in Hackne, he would drop the Hackne people off first and then you haring. Yeah, I had thought of that before, but yeah.
01:10:50 yeah. Yeah.
01:10:51 Yeah. Um
01:10:55 I mean clearly his doing this I imagine gave you the impression of his being a very kind
01:11:01 very kind person. Yeah. He seemed like he was just being helpful. Yeah.
01:11:06 Yeah. Um you say that he would drop you off last and because of that the two of you would end up chatting. Yeah.
01:11:19 [snorts] So again this fostered sort of a growing closeness between the two of you. Yeah. I mean, I I can't remember all the specific conversations obviously, but we
01:11:31 specific conversations obviously, but we would just chat about how things were going and our lives and I guess it just meant that we kind of it [clears throat] felt like the friendship was closer. So, sure.
01:11:42 sure. Um and we heard in T2 obviously that Bob Lambert would drop Jackie off last after um Hunts having Yes. as well as I believe with other women as well.
01:11:53 as I believe with other women as well. Um
01:11:55 Um Allison I think has said the same.
01:12:00 So at this stage just to reiterate he told you he was 27, you were 22. Um
01:12:12 did you click with him? I I thought he was a good friend. Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:19 Yeah. At this stage, did he give you any indication that he was interested sexually?
01:12:26 I don't remember him doing or saying anything to that effect. Right. So, it was just platonic friendly interaction.
01:12:38 You say in your witness statement that looking back, you think actually he was trying to engineer a sexual relationship from quite early on. Yes. Well, that was when I heard Albert
01:12:50 Yes. Well, that was when I heard Albert say about him monopolizing my monopolizing my attention that time in the pub.
01:12:56 the pub. Yeah.
01:12:56 Yeah. Um that made me feel Yeah. You know, and and Dyn refers to it in one of his letters about buying orange juice in the Yeah.
01:13:07 Yeah. in in the in the pub in the Eliza Dittle. Well, let's look at that. I think that's that's important. Um yes. So, Albert Beal, who was, I understand, was a regular at London Greenpeace for a period,
01:13:19 Greenpeace for a period, um, he was asked about when you joined London Greenpeace. And he said this. He said, "I remember her early involvement with the group at the same time as I remember John Dyn, the other undercover,
01:13:31 remember John Dyn, the other undercover, getting involved in the group. I remember them both contemporaneously because of his, you know, very quick personal interest in her and all the rest of it." And he went on, I have one
01:13:42 rest of it." And he went on, I have one or two specific clear memories of John Dyn. I can remember one at a pub after a London Greenpeace meeting. I think it was the pub on the Houston Road that was next to what used to be the Shaw Theater there opposite Mabelden Place. We've
01:13:54 there opposite Mabelden Place. We've been at a meeting at Ensley Street, I guess, not far around the corner. And I think it was at a time when Helen was fairly new to the group. I hadn't got to know her very well. She was quite and my memory of that is that when Helen
01:14:05 memory of that is that when Helen started coming to the meetings and when Jen John Dyne started coming to the meetings was around the same sort of time and I just remember sitting in a pub one evening. I remember Helen it was kind of all jammed up on a bench in the
01:14:17 kind of all jammed up on a bench in the pub with half a dozen of us from a meeting. I do remember Helen was sitting next to me on one side and every time I tried to talk to her I discovered that Dyn was sitting next to her on the other side and was kind of monopolizing her
01:14:29 side and was kind of monopolizing her attention a great deal. He was obviously you know kind of anyway he was talking to her a lot and he was focusing on her a lot and I just remember that because he was on the other side of Helen from me and I didn't know Helen very well at
01:14:40 me and I didn't know Helen very well at that stage. I was going to ask some things but I didn't get a word in you know which is not like me. Um and as you point out if we could bring up please UCPI 39786.
01:14:55 This is a letter from Dyn to you dated the 27th of March 1991.
01:15:12 I'll read out a bit anyway just while we're waiting for the document to come up. But he writes in this letter, "I was thinking that the Eliza Doolittle was where romance blossomed. Well, it sure did for me. All those orange juices I
01:15:24 did for me. All those orange juices I bought you. Gosh, you're an expensive woman.
01:15:30 Do you recall uh the this or these incidents in this pub, the Eliza Dittle? Well, I think I'm I mean I
01:15:43 Well, I think I'm I mean I I think I must have been a bit oblivious to it to be honest, but um yeah, I I I can't say he I wouldn't disagree, but I just don't have a memory of whether or
01:15:54 just don't have a memory of whether or not he bought me orange juices, but to that did that was what I used to drink in those days. Yeah. Um, I'm not sure if if there's problems
01:16:07 I'm not sure if if there's problems bringing up that document. We could there's another document I'd like to bring up if that one's proving problematic. Um, if we could try UCPI 39790.
01:16:22 And this is another Dyn's letter uh sent on the 7th of May 91. Um, again, I'll just read the contents
01:16:35 Um, again, I'll just read the contents while we're waiting for it to be brought up. Slight delay. Uh, on page two he says, "Nope, I never went to London Greenpeace to chat you up, but I did like you being there, even when you had
01:16:46 like you being there, even when you had the grumps. The nearest I could get to you in those days was buying you an orange juice. Little things mean so much, even to inadverted commas crotchety old buggers who are a bit
01:16:57 crotchety old buggers who are a bit thick."
01:16:59 thick." Um, so it's clear there that he's acknowledging doing [snorts] what Albert Beal observed. Yeah. Um,
01:17:07 Um, just in terms of dating when this happened, Miss Steel, you say in your witness statement at paragraph6 that the Eliza Doolittle was a pub in Houston. Yeah.
01:17:17 Yeah. That you'd go to after London Greenpeace meetings when they were held weekly in Ensley Street. Yes.
01:17:23 Yes. And you say that was at the start of Dyn's deployment. Yes.
01:17:28 Yes. Um, whatever it says in my statement, I I can't remember the date off the top of my head, but whatever it says in my statement will be will be right because I I checked. Okay. Yeah. And I understand that they
01:17:39 Okay. Yeah. And I understand that they the meetings moved from Caledonian Road in autumn 1989. So, this must have been taking place somewhere between in that 2-year period. Yeah.
01:17:48 Yeah. Um,
01:17:50 Um, we've now got the exhibit up. Um,
01:17:58 if we could go over to the next, it's page two. Sorry. Yes, the next page, please.
01:18:06 Uh, and sorry, I'm just trying to find the relevant bit. No. Yeah, this Okay, this is the second one. So, it's just in the second paragraph where he says, "I never went
01:18:17 paragraph where he says, "I never went to London Greenpeace to chat you up, but I did like you being there even when you had the grumps. The nearest I could get to you in those days is buying an orange juice. I just wanted to ask you actually just as a discreet thing his reference
01:18:28 just as a discreet thing his reference to who are a bit thick. He there were a couple of references in the letters to him saying he's a bit thick in adverts. Is that something that he had a thing?
01:18:39 Is that something that he had a thing? Was that something that was said to him? I I [laughter] think it came out of some I can't actually remember what it was. some conversation where I may have he wasn't getting something
01:18:52 I may have he wasn't getting something and I I probably shouldn't have said I can't I can't quite remember but I I it wasn't something that I would have regularly said but I think it I think it came out of a particular conversation
01:19:06 okay um but anyway in any event we can take that down now the point is is that this focused attention was taking place in between autumn 87 and autumn 89. So
01:19:18 in between autumn 87 and autumn 89. So early on in his deployment until moving into the middle period. Um,
01:19:38 it it it can I just say it was some kind of jokey comment, not it wasn't intended as a
01:19:44 as a Don't worry, it was just something I noticed. He refers to it a couple of times and it seems like it landed in some way. I think he might it it seems you might have had a bit of a an issue with it. So, um, but anyway, it's not it's not that significant. I
01:19:56 it's not it's not that significant. I wouldn't remember it but for the fact that it's in the letters. So that's but I can't remember what what it was about. Don't worry. Um looking now Miss Steel into
01:20:09 looking now Miss Steel into times when John Dyn purported to take you into his confidence.
01:20:17 Um
01:20:20 you say this in your witness statement. You say this is paragraph 112. Prior to our relationship becoming intimate in May 1990, Dyn targeted me and subjected me to a prolonged period of emotional
01:20:32 me to a prolonged period of emotional manipulation in order to draw me closer to him. I've already quoted that bit, [snorts] but looking at some of the examples of
01:20:42 this emotional manipulation. So you set out in your witness statement that in December 1988 when you were 23 and he was actually 33 but pretending to
01:20:54 and he was actually 33 but pretending to be 28. [snorts] You said that you were socializing with friends in a pub in Hackne around Christmas time when he pulled up a chair beside you and told you that his father
01:21:05 beside you and told you that his father had just died in New Zealand. Yes.
01:21:09 Yes. So did he profer this out of the blue? Yes. Um I think um I'd been playing pool with a few people and sat down at the table and then he
01:21:22 and sat down at the table and then he pulled up a chair beside me and just kind of told me this out of the blue. Um and obviously, you know, I felt sad for him. Um it was uh I I think it
01:21:37 sad for him. Um it was uh I I think it was actually like I'd not really got any experience um as an adult of dealing with someone who'd had a lost a parent and I I remember I was kind of stuck for words. Um
01:21:51 kind of stuck for words. Um um but yeah, I now know that it was false that his father hadn't died. So that
01:21:59 that clearly
01:22:01 clearly there's no reason for bringing up apart from to emotionally manipulate me. Um, was he presenting as if he was distraught? He was he was presenting as though he was upset. I distraught would probably
01:22:13 was upset. I distraught would probably be too strong, but he was he he did seem upset by it. Um, another example you provide, Miss Still, is in March 1989, you say that he
01:22:24 Still, is in March 1989, you say that he fitted a countertop above the washing machine of the kitchen in your shared house.
01:22:31 house. Yes.
01:22:32 Yes. And he did this, if I understand correctly, unprompted. He volunteered to do it. Um, and it fitted at the time with the fact that he said he was a kitchen fitter. Um, and he I think he said he had some kind of
01:22:44 I think he said he had some kind of offcut of kitchen surface and he would just come in and put this kitchen service surface above our washing machine. Um, which was quite handy because we didn't actually have anywhere
01:22:55 because we didn't actually have anywhere to put dirty dishes. So, um, you know, I think all of us in the house kind of felt after that, oh, you know, nice guy, very helpful, and it increased our trust
01:23:06 very helpful, and it increased our trust in him.
01:23:06 in him. Yeah. I mean, that seems like a very kind thing to do. Yeah. On the face of it. Yeah.
01:23:11 it. Yeah. Um,
01:23:13 Um, in August 1989, you say that he gave you a birthday card with a greeting handwritten in Maui. Um, I'd like to bring that up, please. It's
01:23:25 I'd like to bring that up, please. It's UCPI,
01:23:27 UCPI, I think 37426.
01:23:40 So, is this it still? That's it. Yes. Yeah. Um, and if we could move to the Well, we can see that's a very attractive card. Has he has he stuck that on himself? Is that a handmade? I don't know.
01:23:51 I don't know. But it's lovely. It's a lovely thing. Um, if we could move to the message.
01:23:59 So it says here this is in Maui. Um I understand
01:24:10 Um I understand at the time you didn't understand what this meant. No.
01:24:14 No. Um
01:24:16 Um but that you took it to a friend who translated it for you.
01:24:20 for you. Yeah.
01:24:21 Yeah. And they told you that it said happy birthday to a good friend. Love John. Yes. And what was your reaction when you found out that's what it said? Um,
01:24:33 Um, I think I was a bit surprised and um
01:24:41 yeah, I don't know. Um,
01:24:45 Um, maybe a bit awkward. Yeah. Did you feel like he was laying it on a bit?
01:24:50 on a bit? Yeah, maybe a bit. I think I wasn't quite sure what to make of it when I knew what it said. Um, but it gave you pause. You thought
01:25:01 but it gave you pause. You thought actually maybe Yeah,
01:25:05 Yeah, he's interested. Yeah. Um, and I understand from your witness statement that you were breaking up with Andrew Clark at this stage. Yes. around this time I was breaking up with I I know that it was at the
01:25:17 with I I know that it was at the beginning of August that um I felt that I wanted to break up, but obviously quite often breakups are messy and long- winded. So,
01:25:30 messy and long- winded. So, but you're not sure that John Dyn knew about that at the time? No, I don't think he would have. It's not I in general I didn't talk about my private life to anybody, so he wouldn't have known. No. Sure.
01:25:42 Sure. Um,
01:25:45 Um, looking now, Miss Steel, at the GR shoot in August 1989. Yeah.
01:25:50 Yeah. Um, you say of this at paragraph 116 of your third witness statement. You say around this time, Dyn who was living in the squat in Dunmere Road, uh, drove you
01:26:02 the squat in Dunmere Road, uh, drove you and a group of friends and the group included Norman Blair and two of the men who also lived at Dun Road um, up to Yorkshire for the annual grouse shoot SAB and that he picked you up on the
01:26:15 SAB and that he picked you up on the 13th of August and returned to London on the 17th of August. So, a good few days. Yes. Away. Um, I'd like to look at some photographs you provided of that. So, UCPI
01:26:27 you provided of that. So, UCPI 39874.
01:26:36 Um, oh, apologies. That's actually not the one I meant, but never mind. That's fine. We'll look at this one. So, this is
01:26:45 is Dyn
01:26:47 Dyn in the shorts and people are just kind of mcking around on the moors. Just locking around. I noticed the flat cap. So, is that a sort of sabotur disguise?
01:26:57 disguise? Uh, I don't know about disguise. I mean, some people liked dressing up. I know. People have got different taste in clothes, haven't they? Yeah. Okay. Um, if we could bring up, please
01:27:08 Okay. Um, if we could bring up, please 398.
01:27:13 Okay. Oh, okay. Sorry. I understand where the confusion is coming from. Okay. So, there are several 39874s. If we could bring up I think there's one that's 3987414E.
01:27:29 Does that assist?
01:27:33 They were all exhibit HS366 and then there's a number.
01:27:44 Oh, okay. Fine. If we can just Oh, we'll just scroll through the face. Okay. Apologies. I didn't quite understand how the exhibits worked. Uh, so there's another one. We have more larking around
01:27:56 another one. We have more larking around to the next one, please.
01:28:00 John Dy. Yeah. Lying on a rock. Yeah.
01:28:04 Yeah. Don't know. I don't I don't remember quite what was going on then. And then Yeah. They went for a swim. Yeah.
01:28:12 Yeah. Or dip, whatever. Yeah.
01:28:16 Yeah. And that's Dines with Norman in the back of the van. Um, Dyn's van. Thank you.
01:28:29 There's no reporting from Dyn on this growl shoot specifically. Um, he does refer in a report, I'm not going to bring it up, we can look at it in due course, but there is a report dated the
01:28:40 course, but there is a report dated the 22nd of August 89, which is UCPI 26790, where he refers to going on a recent visit to Leeds, but he doesn't say anything about a GR shoot, but we'll
01:28:52 anything about a GR shoot, but we'll explore that in greater detail. This one here is is Dines with all the shooting party. Okay. So, that's Well, there might be a couple of sabs in the background, but the the people that are around him are the
01:29:03 people that are around him are the shooting party with their dogs, and that's him there in the check shirt and the white shorts. And the white shorts. Yeah. Thank you.
01:29:14 And the white shorts. Yeah. Thank you. You say
01:29:15 You say in your witness statement at paragraph 117 that after this gruesab dyne suggested that you all went to Yorkshire
01:29:26 suggested that you all went to Yorkshire to visit some friends who had previously been involved in London green piece and had then set up a small animal sanctuary on a small holding near Barnsley.
01:29:37 on a small holding near Barnsley. Yes.
01:29:38 Yes. So that was Dy suggestion that you do that.
01:29:41 that. Yes.
01:29:42 Yes. Um, if we could bring up please a photograph of your time there, which is 39889
01:29:51 39889 UCPI.
01:30:00 Um, so if I understand correctly, Miss Still, this is you all at the animal sanctuary. I can see there's a sheep. Yes, it's having its um hooves trimmed. was about to say toenails, but that's
01:30:11 was about to say toenails, but that's not the right [laughter] word. Heap toenails. Yeah. Um, so again, a very pleasant scene. Um,
01:30:21 Um, if we just bring up briefly, I think Dyn's report on this, which is UCPI 26793.
01:30:31 Um, this is dated the 30th of August 1989.
01:30:37 Uh, paragraph three. Privacy, who now lives at Privacy with a varying number of expired politicos maintains little contact with his former London Greenpeace allies and has made no
01:30:49 London Greenpeace allies and has made no attempt to become involved in the nearby leads anarchist community. Um, and if we look at paragraph four, [clears throat] a beneficiary of a
01:31:01 [clears throat] a beneficiary of a sizable request to finance the purchase of an organic farm and an animal rescue has placed this one-time hunt sabotar animal liberation front supporter and anti-uclear activist in an ideal
01:31:13 anti-uclear activist in an ideal situation which many of his former cohorts might secretly coveret. Um, obviously the tone there is questionable. Um, would you like to
01:31:26 questionable. Um, would you like to comment, Miss Still, on paragraph four, this idea that the cohorts might secretly coveret situation? I, while we were there, I was very
01:31:37 I, while we were there, I was very explicit in saying how much I liked it there and and how I loved being uh in the countryside and with looking after the animals and, you know, growing food
01:31:48 the animals and, you know, growing food and yeah, I I talked openly about that. I wasn't
01:31:53 I wasn't there secret about it. Yeah.
01:31:56 Yeah. Um, thank you. We can take that down.
01:32:01 Um, sir, I'm aware that now might be time for a pause. I'm probably okay for now, but thank you.
01:32:09 you. All right, we'll continue then. Uh, we we'll have one anyway in 15 minutes. Okay. Is
01:32:13 Okay. Is that right? Yes. Ju just just say all you need to do is say it will fit in with you. Um I'd like to look at a car agreement
01:32:25 Um I'd like to look at a car agreement now please. Um which is dating from around this time. So this is an MPS0731779.
01:32:41 And this document shows um I'll point it out when it comes up but this relates to okay page two please.
01:32:52 So this [snorts] is a bud budget rental agreement for John Dyn. Um we can see well the cover sheet shows that it was
01:33:03 well the cover sheet shows that it was to do maybe sorry I've done this in a cat-handed way. Um the cover sheet you can see it is from the SDSDS Chris
01:33:14 can see it is from the SDSDS Chris Sutliffe and it says we spoke with the hiring of a van by Barker while his vehicle was off the road. Please find the rental agreement copy given to him by budget. And then if we could look at
01:33:26 by budget. And then if we could look at the actual rental agreement on page two. Um so here it is. We can see in the due back it's in the middle column
01:33:38 back it's in the middle column about
01:33:40 about 2/3 down, three fifths down. It says that it is due back on the 18th of August and the rental was for 8 days.
01:33:51 August and the rental was for 8 days. So, it would appear that this is the van that he hired to take you all on that GR shoot.
01:33:58 shoot. Yeah.
01:33:59 Yeah. Um,
01:34:02 were you with him when he filled out this form? No, I wasn't. I didn't know about this until it was disclosed to me. So, we can see that in the local address
01:34:13 So, we can see that in the local address section in that large box that it says Helen Steel and that there's a telephone number there. I mean, there's a privacy box over it, but I presume you've seen
01:34:24 box over it, but I presume you've seen under that privacy reduction. Yes, that's my telephone number at the time at Lynden Road. So, he didn't ask your permission to put your details on this form?
01:34:35 your details on this form? No.
01:34:36 No. So, this came as a complete surprise to you?
01:34:38 you? Yes.
01:34:40 Yes. Um,
01:34:42 Um, is it fair to say the fact that he knew your number and put it on the form that by this stage you are pretty close friends?
01:34:49 friends? Yeah, we were good friends by this stage. Yeah.
01:34:55 Um, we can take that down now, please. Um,
01:34:59 Um, looking at other events that you participated in together, um, Antie McDonald activity, if I could bring up please UCPI 39890.
01:35:20 I [snorts] understand from your witness statement that this is a picket of McDonald's headquarters in Finchley on the 16th of October 1989. Yes. And it's a photograph that was
01:35:31 Yes. And it's a photograph that was taken by McDonald's security and disclosed to us during the course of the McLeel trial. Right. And we can see that's you there with your hand up.
01:35:42 with your hand up. Yeah. That's me putting my hand up. You know, stop taking photographs of us. And that's John Dyn's. Yes.
01:35:49 Yes. That you're talking to. And I I think it like, you know, it shows that we were good friends by that time. Like I I mean you point out in your winner statement that the body language is one
01:36:00 statement that the body language is one of
01:36:01 of it's very friendly and the look on your face.
01:36:03 face. Yeah.
01:36:04 Yeah. Um were you leafitting at this event? Yeah. Well, you can see there's a banner there. Um the London Greenpeace banner. Um that's actually Paul Gravit on the left in the cow outfit. There was like a
01:36:16 left in the cow outfit. There was like a bit of street Oh, right. Yeah. Street theater. Um, but yeah, we were just banners, leaflets, and a bit of street theater. Yeah, I understand it's your evidence. We'll
01:36:27 I understand it's your evidence. We'll come to it in due course, but that the what's wrong with McDonald's leaflet, the subject of the liable proceedings, have gone out of print. You weren't, but do you is it possible it was being handed out at this?
01:36:38 it was being handed out at this? No. So the sit the situation with the what's wrong with McDonald's leaflet was um firstly it was produced before I was involved with the group. By the time I got involved with the group there were not that many copies left and what had
01:36:52 not that many copies left and what had happened was someone had produced a shorter version of it which was more suitable for handing out on the street because like if you hand out a big leaflet on the street it tends to be people won't read something that
01:37:03 to be people won't read something that long. So
01:37:06 long. So it was the short leaflet that used to be handed out on the street and the longer leaflet would be held for if people wrote into the group and asked for more information then they'd get sent a copy. Right.
01:37:16 Right. Or you know I suppose somebody might have taken some and given them out if somebody had asked for more information but in general they were just sent out by
01:37:27 by by post. No if people wanted more information. [snorts]
01:37:31 [snorts] Um, is it your understand that John Dy might have been involved in that? Uh, yeah, certainly. There are actually photographs of him handing out the what's wrong with McDonald's leaflet. And he also regularly
01:37:43 And he also regularly um took part in the answering letters, which was when the fact sheet that we were sued over got distributed by Post to the people who
01:37:54 distributed by Post to the people who wanted more information. Understood. Yeah.
01:37:57 Yeah. Um, looking now at an anti-MC McDonald's fair. Um, there's a photograph of this. This is at UCPI 39893.
01:38:12 I understand, Miss Still, that this took place on the 21st of October 1989 at Conway Hall. That's right. I took this photograph um of Dines on the entrance. It's like the
01:38:26 of Dines on the entrance. It's like the entrance stall in the kind of entrance area of Conway Hall. Right.
01:38:30 Right. Um so he was on the welcome stall. Yeah. Which obviously meant that he got to see everybody who came. Yeah.
01:38:36 Yeah. Um and I just uh I went up the stairs and just took a photograph of the of the stall. So
01:38:43 stall. So Yes. And we can see him there busy with all the material. Yeah. Um, you refer in your witness statement to an incident that took place after this or at least around this time,
01:38:55 after this or at least around this time, you say.
01:38:57 you say. Can you help us, Mr. with what happened? I believe it took place in a pub called the Wellington. That's right. Um, so I I thought it was immediately after this cuz so after the
01:39:09 immediately after this cuz so after the fair finished um I
01:39:13 um I well we all helped clear up, but then DE I went with Dyn in his van to kind of drop everything back off at the London Green Peace Office and wherever else it was being taken to like all the the toys
01:39:26 was being taken to like all the the toys for the crash and the um the leaflets and banners and things like that all either went back to the office or wherever they'd been borrowed from. Um, and I thought that it was after after
01:39:38 and I thought that it was after after that, but it may have been another time around this time. I know it was in autumn 1989. Um, we went to the Wellington pub on Turnpike Lane and um he bought me a
01:39:52 Turnpike Lane and um he bought me a drink and then he asked me if I'd go out with him. Um, and I was a bit shocked and taken aback and um,
01:40:03 and taken aback and um, also embarrassed. Um, I didn't actually want to get in a relationship at that time because I just kind of felt like, uh,
01:40:13 uh, I don't know. Um maybe I still needed head space from the the breakup of the previous relationship, but um uh anyway, I said no and then I felt
01:40:27 uh anyway, I said no and then I felt guilty for saying no cuz I kind of you know his face he looked a bit upset. Yeah. Um, and then I just kind of I made some stupid
01:40:40 I just kind of I made some stupid comment about uh, oh, I never say yes on the first time or something like the first time I'm asked. I can't remember exact wording, but it was I was feeling bad for having rejected
01:40:52 I was feeling bad for having rejected him essentially. And so I felt I said something to I suppose make him feel better. Um, yeah. To soften the blow as it were.
01:41:03 yeah. To soften the blow as it were. Yeah.
01:41:03 Yeah. And how did you respond to that? I can't actually remember the rest of the conversation. Um I mean we remained friends. I didn't I didn't
01:41:16 we remained friends. I didn't I didn't want to I wanted to remain friends with him. I just didn't want a relationship with him.
01:41:20 with him. Yeah.
01:41:24 Moving now to um London Greenpeace benefit gigs uh a little after that incident. So the 11th and the 15th of November 1989.
01:41:35 November 1989. Um if we could bring up please UCPI 39875.
01:41:43 Miss still this is one of your exhibits which um is the note of a meeting by Anthony Pckington who is one of the McDonald spies.
01:41:54 who is one of the McDonald spies. Yes.
01:41:55 Yes. Um and this was disclosed to you during the Mcll proceedings I understand. Yes. That's right. Yes. And it came out in those proceedings that McDonald's started spying on London
01:42:07 that McDonald's started spying on London Greenpeace around October 1989. Yes. They sent I mean there were quite a lot of them over a long period of time but yeah they didn't all start at the same time. Yeah. I understand they yeah
01:42:21 Yeah. I understand they yeah crossed over but weren't all there in one
01:42:23 one Yeah.
01:42:23 Yeah. homogeneous lump. Um so it's dated the 11th of November. He's written, "As instructed, I left the office at 6 PM on the above date and traveled to the new Pegasus, 109 Green
01:42:35 traveled to the new Pegasus, 109 Green Lanes, where I arrived at 7:20. On arrival, the doors were closed to the concert area, and I had no way of gaining entry. At 8:30, the doors were open and the door was being manned by
01:42:47 open and the door was being manned by Helen and John. During the course of the night, I saw the following people that I recognized from the group." So, he notes that you and John are manning the doors at the benefit gig. Is that
01:42:59 doors at the benefit gig. Is that correct?
01:42:59 correct? Yeah, that was we used to do it together quite a lot and that was another way that the kind of friendship developed and sustained as well. Um cuz obviously like you're
01:43:11 like you're when people initially start coming in for the gig, you're busy like you know taking the money and um
01:43:19 um what have you. But then after most people are in it gets quiet and you're still there because there might be people coming late. So we you know we just chat. Yeah. It's more time just the two of you
01:43:30 Yeah. It's more time just the two of you spent in one another's company in which you can talk. Um just keeping this up if we look just for interest at the end of the
01:43:41 for interest at the end of the penultimate paragraph on page one. Um he's written I found that privacy works as a privacy. John I discovered was born in England but moved with moved with his
01:43:52 in England but moved with moved with his family when he was young to New Zealand where they stayed for 12 years. After this time they move back to England. He is now 27 years old. So here
01:44:04 England. He is now 27 years old. So here we can see that John Dyn has been giving this McDonald spy his cover story. Yes.
01:44:12 Yes. Um I see that you've got a handwritten annotation there PBO which means previously blanked out. So when this was originally disclosed to us in the McLeel trial that whole section was redacted. Nobody used the word
01:44:25 was redacted. Nobody used the word redacted in those days. it was always blanked out. But anyway, um and then at some point we applied and successfully applied for it to be unredacted and so that that section was
01:44:37 unredacted and so that that section was um this was all used in open court in the Mcll case. Thank you.
01:44:46 I think you've covered this, but just for the avoidance of doubt after the rejection, were things all right between you? They weren't too awkward. You continue to be friendly.
01:44:57 continue to be friendly. Yeah. Yeah. Remain friends. Yeah. Moving now to a trip to Yorkshire on the for Oh. Oh, I apologize. Apologies.
01:45:08 for Oh. Oh, I apologize. Apologies. Before we do that, I think it is now time for a break, sir. Yes.
01:45:12 Yes. Sorry.
01:45:13 Sorry. Thank you. Um I think the short ad writers also need one. So, um should we have the usual 15 minutes? Is that all right with you? Yeah, that's fine. Thank you. Then we'll have the usual 15 minutes and resume
01:45:25 have the usual 15 minutes and resume about half
02:04:20 Yes. Thank you, sir. Miss Steel, just before the break, um, I headlined our next topic, which is a trip to Yorkshire
02:04:31 trip to Yorkshire from the 4th to the 8th of January, 1990.
02:04:36 1990. Um, if we could bring up please UCPI 39876.
02:04:46 This is another one of your exhibits. I understand this was taken on that trip. Is that correct? Yes, that's right. Yes. How did this trip come about? Um, Dne suggested it. He said, "Do you
02:05:00 Um, Dne suggested it. He said, "Do you fancy going up to see Pete?" um and the animal sanctuary. Uh and he also asked two friends that were a
02:05:13 also asked two friends that were a couple to come with us at the same time. And I understand this is the same small holding that you went to previously. Yes.
02:05:22 Yes. That he reported on. Yes.
02:05:30 Moving into January, February of 1990. We can take that down now, please. There is actually another photograph of
02:05:42 There is actually another photograph of the couple that we went with and D. We could I haven't actually got that written down here, but I'll find that. I know the photo you're talking about. We can bring that. Should in theory be in the same Is this Is it in this exhibit or is this
02:05:54 Is this Is it in this exhibit or is this just a onepage exhibit? It might be 398. There we are. Thank you.
02:06:01 you. So this is taken on the same trip. Yes.
02:06:04 Yes. And this is the couple. Yes. You say thank you.
02:06:12 If we can take that down now, please. Moving into February,
02:06:19 you say in your witness statement that in February 1990, he took you into his confidence again and Dyn told you that his mother had died.
02:06:30 his mother had died. Yes.
02:06:30 Yes. You say that at paragraph 134. Can you remember the circumstances, Miss Still, in which he told you this?
02:06:44 I'm not sure that I can. No, don't worry. So, as far as you're concerned, within a very short spirit, very short period of time, this man has lost not only his
02:06:56 time, this man has lost not only his father, but also his mother. Yes.
02:06:59 Yes. What impact did that have on you? Um well
02:07:05 Um well he was he was basically leaning on me for support because I remember that when he told me he also said that he couldn't afford to get to New Zealand for the funeral. Um and so I offered to lend him
02:07:19 funeral. Um and so I offered to lend him £300 so that he could go there. And that's a lot of money. It was a lot of money. Yeah. but he was a friend in need and I thought, well, okay, I'll I'll help.
02:07:31 thought, well, okay, I'll I'll help. Yes. So, it's a kind thing to do. Yeah.
02:07:36 I'd like to bring up uh another one of your exhibits, which is 39790.
02:07:43 Um, page three, please. Six lines down.
02:07:50 This is dated the
02:07:57 I think this is sorry I think I've got the date here wrong but I think this is from 1990
02:08:01 from 1990 but he says six lines down halfway through
02:08:08 yeah where he says beautiful lovely terrific days I remember your £300 to get me to New Zealand. Yes.
02:08:15 Yes. So I'm just bringing that up because you can see that he's referring there to that incident if I understand it correctly. Yes.
02:08:25 You can take that down now, please. [snorts]
02:08:29 [snorts] You also say in your witness statement that just before he left for New Zealand, supposedly, Dyn asked for your help moving into a new flat and that this was early on the
02:08:41 new flat and that this was early on the morning of the 19th of February, 1990. This was a flat on Castlewood Road, N16. Yes. and he asked for your help moving even though he had very few possessions
02:08:52 even though he had very few possessions and he had his own van. Mhm.
02:08:54 Mhm. Do you find that odd at the time? Um, no. I didn't really think about it at the time, but in retrospect, I I thought, yeah, well, that's that was unnecessary. So, it was
02:09:05 that was unnecessary. So, it was obviously another, you know, lean on me. Yeah.
02:09:08 Yeah. Make me feel responsible or Yeah.
02:09:11 Yeah. But at the time, you were happy to help and indeed you did help. Yeah. So again being very kind, generous with your time.
02:09:23 I understand from your witness statement that on that same day, so this is the 19th of February 1990, he asked to stay at your flat. That's right. So that he could get off early to the
02:09:35 So that he could get off early to the airport
02:09:36 airport again.
02:09:37 again. Yeah.
02:09:37 Yeah. Supposedly to get the flight to New Zealand for his mother's funeral. I the house that I lived in was fairly near to um Turnpike Lane Tube Station which was on the Piccadilly line. So it
02:09:48 which was on the Piccadilly line. So it was going to be easy for him to get Yeah.
02:09:50 Yeah. to Heathrow. Straight down on the Piccadilly line. Were you happy for him to stay at your flat?
02:09:57 flat? Um
02:09:59 Um I didn't mind. Um I can't I can't remember. I mean I would have just felt Yeah. Well, he's why not? You know, he's asked for a favor. Um
02:10:12 You know, he's asked for a favor. Um yeah yeah yeah another flavor f fl f fl
02:10:14 f fl f fl f fl f fl f fl f fl f fl f fl favor um that evening together how did you spend it I should actually say in that context that I was living in a house with six or
02:10:27 that I was living in a house with six or seven other people at the time and it wasn't unusual to have you know people staying in the living room so it was kind of in that context that sure
02:10:36 sure um I was okay with him staying I understand he wasn't asking to stay in your room. He didn't I didn't think and he didn't specifically ask to stay
02:10:47 specifically ask to stay in my room, right?
02:10:49 right? Um but retrospectively I have thought I think he was probably angling to stay in my room.
02:10:57 my room. But you were happy for him to stay in the city
02:10:59 the city on the sofa. Yeah. Yeah. And this is Lynden Road you're living at at the moment.
02:11:07 You've preempted my next question, but again, just to make it clear now, we know all this was completely made up. There was no funeral. He didn't need to go to Heathrow. His mom hadn't died. His mom hadn't died. So
02:11:20 His mom hadn't died. So why do you think he was angling to spend the night at your house? [sighs]
02:11:25 [sighs] Well, cuz he wanted to start a relationship. Yeah.
02:11:31 I mean, there's no other why otherwise would he invent all of that?
02:11:38 Um, I'd like to bring up one of his reports that he submits around this time, which is UCPI 26863. So, this is dated the 20th of February,
02:11:51 So, this is dated the 20th of February, 1990.
02:11:56 And you make the point, Mile, in your witness statement that he must have submitted this report between your helping him move on Monday, the 19th of February, 1990, and coming over later
02:12:07 February, 1990, and coming over later that day.
02:12:08 that day. Yes.
02:12:08 Yes. That he would have attended the Monday meeting at the SDS and submitted this report.
02:12:14 report. Yes.
02:12:15 Yes. Um, if we just look at this just to give a flavor of the kind of things he was reporting, it's about HZN, as we're calling her. Anarchist feminist HZN is known to be living at Privacy with her
02:12:27 known to be living at Privacy with her living lover, Privacy. HZN moved from London's leading anarchist household at Privacy, Lynden Road, N15, early in 1989, preceding Andrew Clark's residence there following
02:12:39 Andrew Clark's residence there following his release from prison. During Clark's absence, HZN was probably comforting the Animal Liberation Front activist girlfriend Helen Steel. And together during that period, they are believed to
02:12:50 during that period, they are believed to have been involved in some small scale attacks in North London. I presume that's a reference to my arrest for um painting a slogan about housing on a
02:13:01 um painting a slogan about housing on a wall.
02:13:02 wall. Right. Thank you. Which I did talk about in tranch 2. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Well, you've talked to us about that. Paragraph four. HZn's move from Lynen Road, whilst undoubtedly prompted by Clark's return, appears to
02:13:15 prompted by Clark's return, appears to have been mainly due to her intimate relationship with Privacy Privacy, herself, an anarchist, but politically inactive. During the last year, Hzn consumed in her lesbian affair, has been
02:13:26 consumed in her lesbian affair, has been obviously absent from the anarchist scene, apart from occasional appearances at local demonstrations, and it is unlikely that she has been further involved in direct action activities.
02:13:41 Um,
02:13:47 I'd just like to invite you to comment really on the tone of that in particular the tone and and the
02:13:54 and the it's implications of paragraph three. Uh, it made me feel sick reading this. Um, not only the the sexism and the
02:14:09 Um, not only the the sexism and the the homophobic assumptions about, you know, lesbians sleeping with anyone and everyone. Um, but also the fact that
02:14:21 everyone. Um, but also the fact that he's speculating in paragraph 3, he's speculating about my sex life at exactly the same time as he then makes a move on me to try and sleep with me.
02:14:34 And you made the point in your witness statement that some of this information also you believe that he gleaned on that trip to Yorkshire on the
02:14:43 on the uh oh that's paragraph five which is um it relates to the woman who came on the trip um who was in the photograph her
02:14:55 trip um who was in the photograph her sister was in a relationship with right
02:14:59 right um Hzn
02:15:00 um Hzn but in any event It's the stark contrast between his actions and his behavior towards you and what he's reporting back to his [clears throat and snorts] bosses. Yes.
02:15:12 Yes. The morning of the 21st of February, 1990, you say in your witness statement at paragraph 139 that you got up at 6:00 a.m. and you walked to Turnpike Lake
02:15:23 a.m. and you walked to Turnpike Lake Chpike Lane Tube with him from where he said he was getting the tube to Heathrow and you saw him off. Yes. So again, you're being nice, getting up early,
02:15:34 getting up early, sending him on his way. Yeah. I mean, we'd spent we'd stayed up quite late chatting on the sofa um the night before him
02:15:45 on the sofa um the night before him talking about, you know, how he was feeling and about going to New Zealand and
02:15:51 and being sad about his mom. Yeah.
02:15:53 Yeah. So, yeah. So, you're being a supportive friend. I was trying to be. Yeah. I'd look at I'd like to look now at some of the correspondence from around this time that he sends you. M still um
02:16:05 time that he sends you. M still um singling you out. So if we could look at please UCPI 39770.
02:16:15 I understand that this was a card that he sent to you and your housemates dated the 24th of April 1990. February.
02:16:25 February. Sorry.
02:16:25 Sorry. February.
02:16:26 February. February. Sorry, February 1990. Apologies. Um, page one, oh yes, it's right there at the top. So, apologies. Um, page one,
02:16:37 at the top. So, apologies. Um, page one, paragraph three, he describes the funeral. I don't think we need to read it all out, but he goes into some detail. Um, service wasn't too religious, pretty short and simple. A
02:16:49 religious, pretty short and simple. A local pastor and doctor made speeches. That's not the right word. 40 people turned up. Rotary Club Wis Drive types bloody tea sie
02:17:00 Wis Drive types bloody tea sie elderflower wine. So he's again really sort of going to town on his description of this fake funeral.
02:17:10 funeral. Yeah.
02:17:11 Yeah. Um if we go on to page two, please.
02:17:18 So, this I understand was a letter addressed to you that was in the in its own envelope. Yes. Inside the outer envelope.
02:17:29 Yes. Inside the outer envelope. Um,
02:17:32 Um, paragraph two, he writes, "Dorothy and a few old friends have been magic like someone else I remember." So, did you understand that to be a reference to
02:17:43 understand that to be a reference to you?
02:17:44 you? Yes.
02:17:46 Yes. Paragraph five, he says, "Sometimes, even with really good friends, it's difficult to be honest and open. So from afar, I'll not be too embarrassed if I say thanks for
02:17:57 be too embarrassed if I say thanks for being you. It was comforting to be around you last Monday, Tuesday. Seems I'm useless on paper as well, but I hope you'll work out what I'm trying to say. Miss you heaps. Love, Jay."
02:18:11 Miss you heaps. Love, Jay." So the reference to the last Monday, Tuesday is what we just talked about when he came over to your house and spent the night and you saw him off onto the tube.
02:18:19 the tube. Yes, that's right. How did you interpret this at the time? Um,
02:18:29 Um, it felt like um
02:18:38 it felt like he wanted to be closer to me. I suppose I I
02:18:44 and was relying on me for support. I mean, it gives a clear impression of someone hinting at a romantic interest.
02:18:55 a romantic interest. Yeah.
02:18:57 Yeah. In the PS he writes, "I've heard you like reading other people's mail, but I'd prefer if nobody else read this." Yes. That's a that's a reference to because we lived in a shared house. Um,
02:19:10 because we lived in a shared house. Um, whenever postcards came through the door, like, you know, do you read them, don't you read them? And it was just a discussion about the fact that if you write a postcard, it's not it's not private really. So it
02:19:23 it's not it's not private really. So it was
02:19:23 was Yeah.
02:19:24 Yeah. Um, how did you feel again then about him asking you to keep this to yourself? Well, I didn't think that much of it at
02:19:36 Well, I didn't think that much of it at the time. I just sort of thought, well, I better respect his wishes, right?
02:19:39 right? Um, it's only in retrospect that I can see that it's part of the kind of manipulation about me not talking about this to anyone else. And it's like a keeping secrets between us and
02:19:51 keeping secrets between us and Yeah.
02:19:52 Yeah. Um
02:19:55 so do you think he knew you well enough at this stage to know that you would keep it to yourself? Yeah, sure. Yeah.
02:20:02 Yeah. Uh so to some extent it isolated you because you didn't feel you could talk to someone else and say I think this person's
02:20:11 person's Yeah.
02:20:11 Yeah. interested. What do you make of that? Yeah.
02:20:15 Yeah. Moving on now to Mcll, I want to look specifically at a dispute of fact about you getting followed after LGP meetings.
02:20:28 LGP meetings. You say in your witness statement of paragraph 145 um that on the 15th of March 1990 you saw John Dyn at a London Green Peace
02:20:40 saw John Dyn at a London Green Peace meeting
02:20:42 meeting and you say that after that meeting Dyn called you and said that he'd been followed.
02:20:49 followed. Yes. Um,
02:20:53 and you say that shortly after you got home, you received a phone call from him. He asked you if you'd noticed being followed home from the meeting. You said you hadn't noticed anyone following you.
02:21:04 you hadn't noticed anyone following you. And Dyn said that when he'd reached Stamford Hill on his way home, he realized he was being followed by a man who had seen him talking to Anthony. And that's a reference to Anthony Popington, who was one of the spies
02:21:15 who was one of the spies who wrote and who wrote the report that we looked at earlier. Right. Thank you. um he'd seen him talking to Anthony Popington in the pub after the meeting. Anthony, right? And then you address the
02:21:26 Anthony, right? And then you address the fact that he's one of the spies. So, is that accurate? That's what happened. He phoned you and told you that he had been followed. Yes.
02:21:35 Yes. Then at paragraph 147 of your witness statement, you refer to another incident roughly a week later on the 22nd of March, 1990 in [snorts] which the two of you were followed.
02:21:47 you were followed. Yeah. [clears throat] So Dyn's on this occasion, Dyn asked me to come with him so that I could see for myself. Yeah.
02:21:54 Yeah. That he was being followed. Um so I did that and um we got out at Seven Sisters, which wasn't my usual tube. Um and started
02:22:06 wasn't my usual tube. Um and started walking up the hill towards Stamford Hill. And then at some point Dines pointed out to me that there was someone following. Yeah. Um, and also while we were walking
02:22:17 Yeah. Um, and also while we were walking up up the hill, there's a post office or there was a post office on the left across the road. Um, and
02:22:27 Um, and well, it's in my statement. I can't remember the name of the road now, but it is in my statement. Um, oh, well,
02:22:33 oh, well, is it Eggerton Road? Yeah, you would go on past Egurtton Road and then you there was a phone box on the corner and he told me that what had happened the previous week was that he sensed that he was being followed
02:22:44 was being followed and so he ducked into the phone box on that corner. Yeah. And at which point the guy had gone past and he
02:22:51 and he I I think he somehow lost managed to lose him at that point. But I I just remember him pointing that out at the time.
02:22:58 time. Yeah. Um we then carried on to um the Homely Road estate which was which at the time um had been scheduled for demolition and a lot of a or some of it
02:23:13 demolition and a lot of a or some of it had been scheduled for demolition and um some of the blocks had been squatted. So there were quite a few people living there that we knew. Um, and the guy
02:23:24 there that we knew. Um, and the guy followed us onto that estate and we went up a flight of stairs and hid. Um, and then as he walked past, I got up and
02:23:35 then as he walked past, I got up and lent over the edge of this um, concrete staircase and took a photograph of him. Um, I'll bring that photograph up which is at UCPI 3986.
02:23:46 is at UCPI 3986. I think it's Yeah. 39868.
02:23:55 That's actually the one slightly later. There's another one. If we could I think this is one of those exhibits where there's more than one page.
02:24:04 page. No, is there the if it's not then maybe I didn't put it in, but there there's another photograph that's taken from I know exactly the the reference I've got it says 22A. I'm not sure if that's
02:24:15 got it says 22A. I'm not sure if that's in the exhibit reference number because I think there were a number of HS3 76 exhibits,
02:24:25 but I know exactly. I mean, I've seen the photograph. Don't know. We'll we'll try and find it. We'll take Yeah, we'll take that down. Don't worry. We'll see if we can find So, I took a photograph of him um from over the side of the staircase and then
02:24:36 over the side of the staircase and then we came down the staircase and kind of challenged him. Yeah. Um, and that's and then he he walked on a bit and we were kind of like, "What are you doing?" I can't I can't remember exactly what the
02:24:47 can't remember exactly what the conversation was. And I took another photograph, which is that one. Right. I understand. And and he pretended to be drunk and, "Oh, leave me alone. I'm drunk." And that that kind of thing. And you say that after this incident,
02:25:00 And you say that after this incident, you had a discussion with Dines about what had happened. Can you help us with what he said? Um, well, I was saying, "Well, who do you think they are? like what what why are you being followed? And and I said,
02:25:12 are you being followed? And and I said, you know, is it is it the police? Would it be the police? And he said, no, I don't think it's the police. I think it's McDonald's. And is that the first time that had
02:25:23 And is that the first time that had entered your mind as a possibility? Yeah. I'd not thought about um McDonald's. [laughter] I Yeah, I had no idea that they would be doing something like that.
02:25:35 like that. Um,
02:25:36 Um, I mean, we had been suspicious about some of the people coming to the meetings, but at no point that I can remember did we speculate about it being McDonald's. I think it was always like,
02:25:47 McDonald's. I think it was always like, well, maybe it's the police, but what why would they want to infiltrate London Greenpeace? It's not like we're doing anything very exciting like Yeah.
02:25:58 Yeah. Um, Dyn in his witness statement at paragraph uh 96.2 two uh refers to an incident on the underground. Um he's
02:26:11 incident on the underground. Um he's vague about the date. He says it's sometime
02:26:16 sometime before or around March 91 and he refers to an incident following an LGP meeting when you were on the tube and you said to him that you thought you were being followed.
02:26:28 were being followed. Yeah, that's not true. Um
02:26:30 Um it was definitely him that initiated the conversation. He he rang me while I was at home after I'd got home after the London Green Peace meeting. He made a call to me at home asking if I'd noticed
02:26:42 call to me at home asking if I'd noticed being followed and I hadn't at all. And then the following week he said he asked me to come with him to see if he was followed again and he he initiated this whole conversation.
02:26:53 whole conversation. Um elsewhere in his witness statement he actually says something slightly different. So this is at paragraph 123. This is in a different context. So this is where he's talking about management knowledge of your sexual relationship.
02:27:06 knowledge of your sexual relationship. And um he says similarly McDonald's surveillance had followed Miss Steel and possibly me to the same address in Finsbury Park on a number of occasions around the same time. He means late 1990
02:27:20 around the same time. He means late 1990 and had served Miss Steel with a writ outside my address. Yeah, that's actually a different address that he calls it Finsbury Park. It's actually um Burgoyne Road in Haring Gay, but it was near to Finsbury Park.
02:27:32 Gay, but it was near to Finsbury Park. But in any event, there he seems to be acknowledging that he did know that you and he were followed. Yes.
02:27:40 Yes. Um
02:27:42 Um he suggests Sorry. No, go on. Well, I was going to say in this extract he suggests that you were followed home alone.
02:27:51 alone. No.
02:27:52 No. And that was going to be my next question. Did you ever tell him that that had happened to you? No. So, as far as you're aware, you weren't you didn't I certainly didn't notice.
02:28:05 Um Bob Lambert also an evidence yesterday referred to John Dyn's telling him.
02:28:09 him. Yes, I did notice that. Yes.
02:28:17 Um, we'll move on now to Dyn's pole tax arrest
02:28:22 arrest on Saturday the 31st of March 1990.
02:28:30 Now, I understand from your witness statement that say for a brief conversation that you had outside the Ministry of Defense where you had a conversation about why you were uncoupling
02:28:42 uncoupling some chains. Yes.
02:28:44 Yes. You stop people being tripped up. Yeah.
02:28:46 Yeah. Yeah.
02:28:46 Yeah. Um he actually refers to that in his Mr. Sweeney and I article, but not right.
02:28:52 right. He doesn't reference you. Um, but apart from that encounter, you weren't with him on the day. No, he was in the Hackne Antipole group and I was in the Tottenham against the
02:29:03 and I was in the Tottenham against the pole tax group. So, he was with his cohorts from the Hackne Antipol group that day. Um, you say that after
02:29:14 Um, you say that after those events on the 31st of March, you next saw him on the 1st of April, the Sunday.
02:29:22 Sunday. Yes.
02:29:25 And I understand he come to your a lotment. Is that where you saw him? I I think he probably phoned me up and said he wanted to see me, I think. Um and then I said, "Well, I'm going to my a lotment. Do you want to come down
02:29:36 a lotment. Do you want to come down there?" I suppose. Okay.
02:29:38 Okay. When you saw him, did he have visible injuries?
02:29:43 Not that I remember. I do remember him talking about having been beaten up by the police. Can you just tell us briefly, Miss Dill, what he said to you about that? Um
02:29:58 he said something about I I think it was he'd been intervening in someone being um arrested or hit by the police. What to be honest um whatever's in my
02:30:11 to be honest um whatever's in my statement is probably better recollection than what I'm going to say now. Um, but I do remember that he he talked about having been beaten up by the police and that when I read the Pax
02:30:25 the police and that when I read the Pax booklet that he wrote the chapter of that that accorded with my memory of what he told me um
02:30:33 um when he met me at my aotment. Right. That was again going to be my next question. But that's interesting because I wanted to ask you this account that he writes. It's titled Mr. Sweeney and Me. Yes. Yes.
02:30:44 and Me. Yes. Yes. I wanted to ask you for what if you understood the purpose for which he wrote that. Um,
02:30:51 Um, and when he wrote it. I don't know when he wrote it. I mean, I think it was fairly soon after the events. Um, I can't remember where the
02:31:05 events. Um, I can't remember where the idea of the booklet came from. I just remember him talking about having written a chapter for it and that he showed me to it. He showed me the the booklet and his chapter. And what as far as you understood it was
02:31:18 And what as far as you understood it was the purpose of that booklet? Uh I think it was a collection of people's accounts of what happened on the day at the Pax demonstration which obviously had been attacked by the
02:31:29 obviously had been attacked by the police and as a consequence you know disorder broke out and um a lot of people were injured and I think people kind of wanted to process what had happened.
02:31:40 happened. Yeah.
02:31:41 Yeah. um
02:31:43 um he provides the account that you refer to um in this booklet. I'll read it just very quickly. This is at um UCPI 34353. It's at page 17.
02:31:56 It's at page 17. Um, and he says, "As I lay face down in a gutter in White Hall with a policeman's boot in the back of my neck and his two mates wrenching my arms from my shoulders, their macho
02:32:08 my arms from my shoulders, their macho sergeant balling instructions on how best to incapacitate me. I briefly pondered my wrongdoing in trying to prevent it's page 17. Don't don't worry too much because I can read
02:32:19 don't worry too much because I can read it out from here. But trying to prevent someone I'd never met before from being arrested for shouting his opposition to the pole tax. The kick in the forehead diverted my thoughts and I was bundled into the police van, manicled so tightly
02:32:31 into the police van, manicled so tightly my hands went blue, then dragged across the road, booted and thumped as I was pushed into a second van. So broadly speaking, is that what he told you at
02:32:42 speaking, is that what he told you at the alarm? Something to that effect. Um, I know that I was concerned about him when he told me that he'd been beaten up and I I think I said something to about getting his injuries checked out, but he kind of
02:32:54 his injuries checked out, but he kind of made light of it and sort of was just like, well, I don't know. He'll be all right sort of thing. Yeah, fine. He didn't seem too bothered. Um, I just want to look quickly at some of the SDS documents relating to this
02:33:06 of the SDS documents relating to this incident. Um there's a small bundle of documents relating to his arrest at the pole tax demonstration. Uh this is at MPS0526796.
02:33:19 And on page two there's a minute from Chief Superintendent Les Willingale on the 3rd of April 1990 to Commander Ops.
02:33:31 of April 1990 to Commander Ops. Um yeah and that's it. And in the first paragraph to commander operations, he says, "As discussed, DS Dyn was arrested on the 31st of March 1990 during the Britain all Britain pole tax anti
02:33:43 Britain all Britain pole tax anti federation in central London receiving injuries to his head, groin, and back in the process. Um, so if we go to page three, so he's clear that he was injured during the
02:33:54 clear that he was injured during the arrest.
02:33:55 arrest. Page three, there's a minute from Commander
02:33:59 Commander Ops DG gun. Penultimate paragraph. He says, "I have fully briefed Chief Superintendent C on that action and given explicit directions regarding the personal safety of DS Dyn and the
02:34:10 personal safety of DS Dyn and the protection of his undercover role. At present, oh no, sorry, I've read the wrong bit. It's the bits under that." He says, "You will know that DS Dyn received minor injuries during his arrest, but he has now recovered and no
02:34:22 arrest, but he has now recovered and no lasting damage is anticipated." So again, he's clear that he was injured during the arrest, which obviously this is a very brief preface, but that accords with what he told you. Yeah.
02:34:34 accords with what he told you. Yeah. Um Dyn statement, this is at paragraph 139.2,
02:34:41 139.2, he says this about the Mr. Sweeney account. He says, "I recognize the account available online. I wrote it. I may have been arrested whilst trying to intervene to prevent someone else from being arrested, but the event was too
02:34:52 being arrested, but the event was too messy. things were over too quickly. I just recall the tremendous surge with people all around and on top of me, then being hauled up by police and very strongly manhandled into the van. I
02:35:03 strongly manhandled into the van. I wrote this account maximizing or publicizing the fact I've been arrested for the benefit of my assumed ID and operational objectives. So, it can be taken with a pinch of salt. I don't
02:35:14 taken with a pinch of salt. I don't think there's any doubt I was manhandled by police officers and may have suffered some injuries because of that. But my main injuries were caused by the pressure of the crowd and being on the bottom of the pile. So the there he
02:35:26 bottom of the pile. So the there he seems to claim that his injuries were caused by the crowd mainly but also the police.
02:35:33 police. Um
02:35:33 Um must be trying to protect the police. But yeah.
02:35:35 But yeah. Yes. And then if we go back to um the bundle of documents MPS0526796
02:35:45 page four
02:35:48 and I'd just like to look at the DCI gray report dated the 3rd of April 1990
02:35:59 at paragraph one.
02:36:04 Sorry, it's the document we just had up. Yeah, there we go. Thank you. Um, again, setting the scene. Saturday, 31st of March at White Hall opposite Downing Street, DS Stein was injured
02:36:16 Downing Street, DS Stein was injured when on duty. Paragraph two, he says, "Dines were was among those taking part in the march when a melee occurred between demonstrators and the police. He was pushed to the ground and suffered cuts and grazes to the head,
02:36:27 cuts and grazes to the head, specifically his nose and forehead, and cuts and grazes to his right hand. He also received kicks in the groin and back resulting in bruising. All these injuries were caused by demonstrators
02:36:39 injuries were caused by demonstrators during the melee. So by that stage no mention of police causing injuries. And just again for the avoidance of doubt at any stage did he
02:36:50 avoidance of doubt at any stage did he tell you he was injured by the crowd? No definitely not. We can take that down now please. Um oh apologies. No we can't. Sorry. I need to go to page seven of that same
02:37:02 need to go to page seven of that same document.
02:37:04 document. So this is the matter of the marbles. Yep.
02:37:09 Yep. Um [snorts] this page shows the custody record.
02:37:13 record. Yes. Which has also got my home phone number on it as his point of contact. Yeah.
02:37:19 Yeah. That was exactly my first question. That's your home phone number. Yeah.
02:37:24 Yeah. Again, were you aware that Nope. He was giving out your number as a point of contact in the event of arrest. No, but I wouldn't have objected had I.
02:37:35 No, but I wouldn't have objected had I. I mean,
02:37:36 I mean, yeah,
02:37:36 yeah, assuming that he was a genuine protester, I wouldn't have objected. No. Um, well, again, you've shown yourself more than willing to help him out in times of difficulty.
02:37:47 out in times of difficulty. Um,
02:37:51 it lists amongst his possessions when he was arrested. We can see on the left hand side the chart at the bottom where it says 16 marbles.
02:38:05 where it says 16 marbles. Yes.
02:38:06 Yes. It didn't say anything about marbles to me. I was not aware of that at all until I saw this. Fine.
02:38:12 Fine. Um and actually if he'd said anything about it at the time, I I would have questioned him about why he would want to take my balls on a demo. It was generally a a
02:38:24 generally a a people thing that people thought it was um
02:38:28 um a a sort of line that the police would insert into their reports for justifying what they did would be to like claim that protesters were taking marbles on demonstration demonstrations to cause
02:38:40 demonstration demonstrations to cause trouble.
02:38:42 trouble. So
02:38:43 So So nothing to you about marbles? He never talked to me about marbles. No, not nor after the arrest. He didn't say that he'd been arrested in possession of marbles.
02:38:52 marbles. Um there's some sort of opacity about his accounts. There's seems to be some confusion about whether he was handed the marbles, whether he took the marbles. It's not quite clear what he
02:39:04 marbles. It's not quite clear what he means, but again, nothing said that can help clarify that. Um
02:39:14 in another report um and before we leave this one can we just look at the name please in which oh we may yes of course apologies the
02:39:26 oh we may yes of course apologies the name on this custody record Miss Steel you can see is Kadugan Wayne Kadugen. Yes
02:39:34 Yes with this address. Yes. Um, we know that this was another cover name of Dyn. Did he talk to you about this in particular?
02:39:45 about this in particular? He told me that he had given uh an alias um be wi which was not particularly uncommon at the time because people would be arrested for trumped up charges
02:39:56 would be arrested for trumped up charges and you know want to avoid having convictions on their record for something that police had fitted them up for. So, it wasn't it wasn't particularly unusual for that to happen. And he did tell me that he'd given that
02:40:08 And he did tell me that he'd given that name.
02:40:09 name. Yeah.
02:40:09 Yeah. Um well, I don't know whether he told me that the day after, but I know that I went to his court hearing. So, I must have known his name by then.
02:40:20 So, I must have known his name by then. Um cuz I was there in court when the warrant was issued for his arrest because he failed to attend. In this name? In this name. Yes. And were you aware prior to this that he had
02:40:32 were you aware prior to this that he had this
02:40:33 this identity or not? Did it only come out through
02:40:36 through the course of this? Yeah. No, I didn't know about it before.
02:40:45 Moving on now to his going on the run apparently. Um, you say in your witness statement at paragraph 157 that on the 5th of April
02:40:57 paragraph 157 that on the 5th of April 1990, fairly early in the morning, Dyn turned up on your doorstep and told you that his flat had been raided by the police and that he needed your help.
02:41:08 police and that he needed your help. Yes.
02:41:09 Yes. And that he asked you to phone his work and tell them he was sick and not coming in.
02:41:14 in. Yes. Can I just say in the the context of this is that for some time I had been um helping with both court monitoring of
02:41:25 um helping with both court monitoring of people arrested on protests and um also prisoner support work. So he knew that that was yeah the sort of thing that I I would help with. So
02:41:35 with. So and you were involved yes the Trfalga Square defense campaign you were involved in that.
02:41:44 So he comes around to your house early in the morning. He's asking for your help again. Um and inconveniencing you to some extent, but as you said, you were happy to help. Um did you ring his
02:41:57 were happy to help. Um did you ring his workplace? Yes.
02:42:00 Yes. And what happened? Uh they
02:42:04 Uh they I rang up and I said, "Oh, he's he's not well. He's um asked me to let you know that he's he's not coming in today." and and they responded, "Well, tell him that the police have been here looking for
02:42:15 the police have been here looking for him." And so when I got off the phone, uh well, I mean, I was taken aback by that, but um when I got off the phone, I said that to him and then he, you know,
02:42:27 said that to him and then he, you know, I can't remember whether it was immediate or but he then said he had to go on the run, right?
02:42:35 How did he tell you that in the sense that did he suddenly sort of lose all composure and freak out? No, I don't think it was like that. It was
02:42:47 It was more just kind of I I think he may be like, "Oh, I don't know what I don't know what I better do now or something. Maybe I have to go on the run." I I can't I can't actually picture
02:42:59 run." I I can't I can't actually picture that bit of it. I just remember the bit about the
02:43:03 about the uh making a phone call and them saying that.
02:43:06 that. Um
02:43:09 Um now I understand you've referred to his first appearance um his hearing. Before we get on to that, can you remember who the employer was or what the name of the employer was?
02:43:20 the name of the employer was? I think it was Kingswood Fitted Kitchens.
02:43:22 Kitchens. Kingswood Fitted Kitchens. Thank you.
02:43:32 So he was absent for his hearing in relation to the arrest. Yes. At the pole tax demonstration and I understand that was on the 10th of April 1990.
02:43:45 was on the 10th of April 1990. Yes. Well, if that's in my statement, I can't remember the date off the top of my head. But can you remember roughly how far in advance of that he went on the run?
02:44:00 No, I'm not sure. So, part of I actually have um problems remembering the sequence because for a long time the letter that he wrote me that is dated
02:44:13 letter that he wrote me that is dated 18th is it the 18th of March which is actually the 18th of April. Yeah. But the consequence of that was that for I remember that for ages I thought that doesn't make any sense that he went on the run before he got
02:44:25 he went on the run before he got arrested. And so I understand the the kind of sequence of it is a bit well let's bring let's bring up that letter
02:44:31 letter right.
02:44:32 right. Um so that's UCPI 39771
02:44:41 and yes as you point out we can see the top there it says 16th of March 1990. Um,
02:44:49 Um, you say in your witness statement, he refers in this first paragraph, he says, "Hope you had a real good time in Leeds and Bradford, lucky bugger." And you say in your witness statement that you know
02:45:01 in your witness statement that you know that this is actually wrongly dated and it should be the 16th of April because you know from your diary that you were in Leeds and Bradford in April rather than in March. Yes. So, does that yes
02:45:12 yes sound right? Um,
02:45:16 Um, while we're on this page, can I just point out that he says here, "I'm off to Derby in the next few days." Um, and in his statement, he says he never used his
02:45:27 his statement, he says he never used his um
02:45:29 um his cover background as part of his ah and and his he was born he the identity he was using was born in Derby. I see. So that undermines that claim.
02:45:40 I see. So that undermines that claim. Yes.
02:45:45 page two, please of this letter and the final paragraph.
02:45:51 Um, he says, "Such a lot, such a lot I want to say, Helen, but just can't put it into words. It's been a real long week since I then, sorry, onto the next page. Saw you last. So many different
02:46:04 page. Saw you last. So many different thoughts, but always the same answers. have tormented with the idea of sorting this out but just can't face what seems to be inevitable. I feel angry, sad, annoyed, frustrated. Guess this is
02:46:17 annoyed, frustrated. Guess this is accepting responsibility for my actions. Um I mean roughly speaking, if he's saying it's been a long week since he saw you last and it's the 16th of April, then that would suggest he went on the
02:46:28 then that would suggest he went on the run around the 8th or 9th of April. Does that sound about right? Yeah, I I can't I really can't remember precisely, but yes, that would be about right. Um, you say in your witness statement that he gave you this letter
02:46:39 statement that he gave you this letter on the 18th of April. Okay.
02:46:43 Okay. Can you help us with the circumstances in which he gave it to you?
02:46:52 [sighs] If it helps, you also say in your witness statement that during the conversation that you had when he gave it to you, he said he was leaving London.
02:47:03 London. Yeah. I I think we'd been to a pub or something and then he gave me the letter and just said, "Read it when you get home or something." Right. Yeah. But I can't I can't
02:47:15 But I can't I can't entirely remember. Sure. But if I understand correctly, he'd been on the run. He popped back and then he sort of went on the run again. Is that a fair description?
02:47:26 Is that a fair description? Uh,
02:47:29 it could be. I'm sorry. Don't worry. Don't worry. is I mean it is confusing. Um the paragraph I just read out um he's confiding in you again
02:47:40 read out um he's confiding in you again feeling tormented. He's given an impression of [snorts] being in some state of distress. Yeah.
02:47:49 Yeah. Um I'll just read the paragraph under that on page two. When I left London as a kid for New Zealand, I didn't want to leave friends home and school. 15 years on, I seem to be doing the same damn thing.
02:48:01 thing. Anyway, when I first got to New Zealand, I was schooled, not very well, way out in the boonies by an old Maui woman called Mariana. She gave me this W punama.
02:48:12 punama. To you
02:48:14 To you and me, it's a greenstone jade pendant. Um, I know you're not into such things, but I've worn it every day until now. It's worth little, but it's real
02:48:25 It's worth little, but it's real valuable to me. It's all I have to give, and I'd like you to have it. You're something else I became. Sorry. You're something else I became attached to. Still miss you heaps
02:48:37 became attached to. Still miss you heaps every day. I wish I could come and say hello again. Must close. Love you for always.
02:48:45 always. Jay.
02:48:50 So he's giving you an object that he claims has enormous sentimental value. Yes. And asking me to wear it. Yeah. At all times,
02:49:01 At all times, which means that I'm reminded of him at all times. Yeah. Um
02:49:06 Yeah. Um and feel closer to him. Did you wear the pendant? I did. Yes. Even though I don't I haven't worn jewelry since I was a teenager. I didn't wear jewelry. Yeah.
02:49:17 Yeah. Um but despite that, because he'd asked me to wear it, I did.
02:49:23 And he says, "Love you for always." It seems that he's ramping it up. Yes.
02:49:31 Yes. Ramping up the closeness, ramping up the love bombing. Is that a fair analysis? Yes, definitely.
02:49:44 Um, if we could go to another exhibit, please. This is UCPI 39772. This is another letter he sent you on
02:49:55 This is another letter he sent you on the 25th of April, 1990.
02:50:02 Um, so again, it's over this period. Um,
02:50:10 on page one, the final paragraph, he says, "I too was pleased we saw each other last Wednesday." So that would seem to be a reference to the meeting when he handed you the previous letter.
02:50:22 when he handed you the previous letter. It made life a lot easier till about
02:50:27 Friday or Saturday. Anyway, now I just miss you every single day. Guess I have too much thinking time, too much dreaming. They're all real good thoughts, though. Just wish they'd fade away. Not really. Just wish I could
02:50:41 away. Not really. Just wish I could handle them. So, he really does seem to be implying that he has very strong feelings for you at this stage. Yes.
02:50:49 Yes. Um, the final paragraph on this page, he says, "Helen, the thought of you coming with me is too incredible to describe. I tried to blurt out that suggestion last Wednesday, but I'm a heap of hassle. You
02:51:01 Wednesday, but I'm a heap of hassle. You don't deserve that. Real pleased to hear you have one bad habit." That's a reference to you wearing the pendant. Keeping the pendant means more to me than you'll ever know.
02:51:15 um the reference to you offering to go with him. Can you help us with what he means?
02:51:23 means? I think he actually did hint at it when we met that um to go with him on the run. Right. So, he hinted that he would like to do that. Yeah. And I don't think he said it
02:51:35 Yeah. And I don't think he said it explicitly, but I think he was kind of hinting that he'd like me to be with him.
02:51:41 him. And I did contemplate it. Yeah. Um, and he suggests here that you indicated to him that you would consider doing that. Yes.
02:51:49 Yes. Is that accurate? Yes.
02:51:51 Yes. And I'm sorry to ask this question, but why did you consider doing that? To help him, I suppose. Because you're invested at this stage. I felt he he I felt he needed help and I
02:52:03 I felt he he I felt he needed help and I felt
02:52:12 you're all right.
02:52:15 the he signs off this letter. He says, "Take real good care of yourself. You're a very precious somebody. Love you. Miss you." And then the PS, he says, "Do me a
02:52:26 you." And then the PS, he says, "Do me a last favor. Send a photo of you." That is to the same address as your last letter, please.
02:52:46 It might be time for a break. No, I'm okay.
02:52:54 Pause a moment. Um,
02:53:10 please don't worry. It's very
02:53:14 difficult.
02:53:19 Yeah, maybe we should have a break. Okay. [snorts]
02:53:25 We'll break and let us know when you're ready to resume until you
03:03:36 For what are obvious reasons, we will break early for lunch now and have an hour for lunch and resume at 252. Thank you, sir.