The witness, known as Lindsey, provides evidence regarding her background in socialist activism and her relationship with undercover officer Carlo Saraki. She describes her political motivations rooted in the the economic decline of Liverpool and directly contradicts Saraki's claim that she was 'anti-politics'.
00:28:42 Good morning, everybody. Uh, today's proceedings are going to be live streamed subject to the usual 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the
00:28:54 them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography. Thank you. Repeat after me. I do solemnly
00:29:06 Repeat after me. I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth.
00:29:17 shall be the truth. the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth.
00:29:24 Yes. Thank you for coming to assist the inquiry with your evidence today. You've been granted anonymity in this inquiry, so I'll not ask for your name, but you've been given the ciphered Lindsay
00:29:35 you've been given the ciphered Lindsay by this inquiry. Is that correct? Correct. Yes. Uh I [snorts] will therefore refer to you as Lindsay throughout. You've provided two signed witness statements to the inquiry. We have the first
00:29:46 to the inquiry. We have the first statement up on screen, please. UCPI 38218 at A1 of your bundle. It consists of 47 pages signed on the last page and dated 6th of June 2025. Is that your
00:29:58 dated 6th of June 2025. Is that your statement? It is.
00:30:00 It is. You've also provided a second statement uh to the inquiry. Uh that's UCPI 39426 tab A23 of the bundle. It consists of
00:30:11 tab A23 of the bundle. It consists of three pages signed by you and is dated the 11th of November 2025. Is that your statement? That is.
00:30:19 That is. Can you confirm that the contents of your witness statements are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief? They are.
00:30:26 They are. That puts the whole of your witness statements into evidence. Um, for your [clears throat] um signposting, your statements address your experience with the man you knew as Carlo Neri, an
00:30:37 with the man you knew as Carlo Neri, an undercover officer whose real name is Carlo Saraki, also known as HN 104, code name Craggy Island and Malt Glass or Grass. Um, for your reference, uh, he
00:30:49 Grass. Um, for your reference, uh, he entered, uh, into his deployment in the field on the 12th of May 2000, and that came to an end in December 2006. And you knew him in his cover identity during
00:31:00 knew him in his cover identity during 2001 and 2002. Is that right? It is.
00:31:03 It is. Can I just ask you, sorry, what was the second cover name? Craggy Island I know of?
00:31:08 of? Molt Grass or Glass? Molt Glass. Molt Grass. [clears throat] Um, and you say you had a relationship with him between May 2001 and April 2002. Is that
00:31:19 between May 2001 and April 2002. Is that right?
00:31:20 right? Yes.
00:31:21 Yes. You've referred to him in your statement as Saraki throughout and as I understand you would like to continue to refer to him in that manner and I'll do the same. Is that okay? Thank you.
00:31:33 Thank you. looking first um at your um I'm going to go and ask you through um questions today going through your witness statement highlighting certain points and getting you to elaborate on
00:31:44 points and getting you to elaborate on them about your background in activism and then into your uh relationship with him. So, first of all, starting with uh your background in activism, at
00:31:55 your background in activism, at paragraph 2.1 of your witness statement, you explain how you grew up in Liverpool in the 70s and 80s in the midst of severe economic decline of the city and shocking levels of unemployment. You
00:32:07 shocking levels of unemployment. You describe this as a politicizing experience. Can you explain what you mean by that? Um, yeah. So at its most uh deprived,
00:32:18 Um, yeah. So at its most uh deprived, Liverpool had was running something like 90% youth unemployment. Um
00:32:25 Um the city was underresourced uh shockingly underresourced by central government. And so the actual infrastructure of the city was was crumbling, you know, from from a fairly
00:32:40 crumbling, you know, from from a fairly um I guess fairly affluent city in some ways um healthy manufacturing industry in the 50s and 60s. Um many of those uh
00:32:53 in the 50s and 60s. Um many of those uh manufacturing bases which you know employed and lots of women for instance and you know they were the breadwinners for the families in in some of these
00:33:04 families in in some of these manufacturing uh concerns. um those closed down and uh so um yeah it it it felt like uh a city
00:33:16 so um yeah it it it felt like uh a city that was just being allowed to decline. And how did that become a politicizing experience for you? Um well I was very lucky in the fact that um my
00:33:29 I was very lucky in the fact that um my dad had a really good job so we were kind of buffered um uh financially [snorts]
00:33:38 [snorts] but the rest of my family um many of them were were affected by uh long-term unemployment and um the influx
00:33:51 long-term unemployment and um the influx of drugs into the city and the destruction that wrought to families across the city. Most families were affected by that uh to my knowledge in
00:34:02 affected by that uh to my knowledge in some way or other. Um and yeah, just to see um the really destructive effects of poverty on uh you know, you L Liverpool
00:34:17 poverty on uh you know, you L Liverpool has has always had a fairly community feel even though it has been a you know sort of midsize city at some points. um
00:34:28 sort of midsize city at some points. um the there there always has been a bit of a community feel about Liverpool and so you [snorts] experience uh you know the the what other people
00:34:40 uh you know the the what other people what your fellow citizens are going through you know it's not like London where it's an impersonal place [clears throat] because of what was going on in Liverpool at the time is that why you then decided to join Militant
00:34:52 then decided to join Militant um well yeah I mean I I I had a a me mom in particular ly was um she was a member of the Labour Party and so she uh
00:35:03 of the Labour Party and so she uh they kind of instilled to some extent left-wing
00:35:08 left-wing ideas without meaning to um into uh the children. [snorts] Um, and so I was already very aware of uh how things
00:35:21 uh how things um were politically and economically. Um,
00:35:26 Um, and so yeah, I mean I I also I am the type of person who who uh I I I can I I'm I'm aware of of what people are kind of going through, you
00:35:38 people are kind of going through, you know what I mean? So it was um it was kind of natural that I fell into socialist politics really and you know which essentially at its root is a desire to um for equality and uh and for
00:35:52 desire to um for equality and uh and for economic equality and justice for people and um so yeah it was very natural especially going you know seeing the minor strike every every night on the TV. My parents did a certain amount of
00:36:04 TV. My parents did a certain amount of um fundraising for um miners from local collaries and um you know to to actually see a different
00:36:15 you know to to actually see a different story being told uh through very biased media. You know, this is all a real learning experience when you're in your teens, you know. Of course. Uh so paragraph 2.3 of your
00:36:26 Of course. Uh so paragraph 2.3 of your witness strike you you talk about the miners strike in 1984 and 85 as a political education impressing on you the importance of trade unionism. So is trade unionism something that you've
00:36:37 trade unionism something that you've continued to support throughout your life?
00:36:39 life? Absolutely. Yeah. It's it's a it's an absolute necessity for any working person to be unionized. Um and have you been a member of a trade union?
00:36:48 union? I've been a member of a trade union since I was 17. Um and uh I was actually a trade union workplace rep um
00:37:01 workplace rep um towards the end of me relationship with Carlo actually. So um d I just called him Carlo. Um that's quite all right. Whatever is comfortable. [laughter] Um so which trade unions have you been a
00:37:13 Um so which trade unions have you been a member of? So I was a member of N US for quite a few years. Um I was a member of uh TNG for a short period and then I've been a member of Prospect for um a lot of me
00:37:26 member of Prospect for um a lot of me working life still a member of Prospect. [clears throat] Um and you say at the time of um being in a relationship with Carlo you were the trade union workplace rep. Would would he have been aware of that? Uh, I
00:37:38 would he have been aware of that? Uh, I don't I don't actually know. I I guess so if if I I I can't say I've tried really hard to get employment records to find out exactly what I was doing at the time of me, but being so long ago, I
00:37:50 time of me, but being so long ago, I really can't I can't give you exact dates, but I'm fairly sure I was in the the job where I was a workplace rep towards the end of our relationship, but
00:38:01 towards the end of our relationship, but things were so bad at that point, which I know he'll go into later, perhaps he wasn't aware. I don't know. Um, and would you have attended [clears throat] trade union events or demonstrations at the time you were with
00:38:12 demonstrations at the time you were with Carlo?
00:38:13 Carlo? Um, yeah. I mean, I attended I never stopped attending demonstration. I've attended demonstrations since the age of, you know, about 16. Um,
00:38:24 of, you know, about 16. Um, and do you recall if he ever expressed any views of on trade unionism when you were together? No, I don't recall. And do you recall him ever trying to
00:38:35 And do you recall him ever trying to influence um your views on trade unionism in any way? Um no, he he was it was actually the risk of sounding, you know, a bit patronizing, it was quite endearing his
00:38:47 patronizing, it was quite endearing his his the way he expressed himself politically, you know. Um it was uh kind of like he was only just discovering politics, you know, in his in his 30s.
00:38:59 politics, you know, in his in his 30s. um which obviously most people discover particularly leftwing politics in the youth you know so um he I don't know whether you'll come to this but he did actually try to you know give me like
00:39:11 actually try to you know give me like little sort of mini leadoffs you know he laid out his political views and I just thought that is so nice that he's actually found you know a political identity but it was it I I think it was
00:39:25 identity but it was it I I think it was rudimentary political analysis um because of the people the absolute experts that in political theory that I'd known for many years. You know,
00:39:36 I'd known for many years. You know, we'll come back to his um political activity in a moment. Um but in paragraph um uh 2.3, you describe how the minor struggle in the 19 minor
00:39:47 the minor struggle in the 19 minor struggle in the 1980s felt more personal to you because your parents had a role in fundraising for it. And in in paragraph 2.2, to you talk about how you found it difficult as a child to witness the people you loved having few economic
00:39:59 the people you loved having few economic prospects. Has your involvement in activism throughout your life felt personal to you or was that particularly so as a teenager? Um it does feel personal because to see fellow human
00:40:11 personal because to see fellow human beings in whichever country um being deliberately uh underresourced, kept poor, you know, and and the just witnessing destructive
00:40:24 and the just witnessing destructive poverty in the first world, the third world, you know, everywhere. Um it's it affects me greatly. you know, I these are my fellow human beings and uh I
00:40:37 are my fellow human beings and uh I think it's criminal that um people who have political power uh you know, keep people in poverty. I mean you know almost a third of of children in the UK
00:40:48 almost a third of of children in the UK at the moment like this what six world's sixth biggest economy are in below the poverty line. I mean that that's criminal to me. So yeah it it's it was very personal then I take it very
00:41:00 very personal then I take it very personally now. Thank you. In paragraph 3.2 of your statement, you explain that you became a member of the Socialist Party or militant as it was then in 1987 until about late 1991. Is that right?
00:41:13 until about late 1991. Is that right? Yes.
00:41:13 Yes. And you weren't a central figure, but you had plenty of teenage enthusiasm and involved yourself in campaignings and demonstrations. Is that right? Yeah.
00:41:22 Yeah. And then you say you in paragraph 3.6, you lived and breathed politics for these years. for example, supporting the Labor run Liverpool council dispute with Margaret Thatcher's government. Uh we don't need to bring up every um
00:41:34 don't need to bring up every um reference in the statement. Um Margaret Thatcher govern about the tax cuts to local authority uh campaigning about the pole tax. Did you talk to Saraki about
00:41:46 pole tax. Did you talk to Saraki about the activism you were involved with as a teenager? Would he have been aware of that?
00:41:50 that? Um yeah, I'm I'm sure I did. Um I I mean politics doesn't leave you especially when you're that involved. Literally I'm not I am not exaggerating when I said I
00:42:02 not I am not exaggerating when I said I lived and breathed politics. Me political comrades were family you know and I still love those people. Many of those people um so it doesn't leave you know your your political experiences
00:42:13 know your your political experiences stay with you and your political comrades travel with you through your life. So I'm sure I must have discussed um some of the earlier stuff um as as I
00:42:24 um some of the earlier stuff um as as I don't know whether you'll come to the photograph that's on when you come to that later. Okay. Um so that will have provoked a discussion about you know politics and and uh police's role in demonstrations and stuff. Um the
00:42:36 demonstrations and stuff. Um the likelihood is I did discuss me political views.
00:42:40 views. Uh and in uh paragraph 3.12 you explain that in late 91 you moved to new Newcastle and that over the next two years uh because of your circumstances you dropped out of activism. Was it
00:42:53 you dropped out of activism. Was it there for a gradual reduction in your involvement and activism until around 1993? Is that sound about right? It was a complete reduction in me activism. you know there there were moments where as I say me politics your
00:43:05 moments where as I say me politics your politics doesn't leave you when you you believe that strongly in you know solutions political solutions to to economic and social problems um so um
00:43:18 economic and social problems um so um yeah so I I still attended large demonstrations like lots of people did um I would occasionally uh go to um
00:43:29 um I would occasionally uh go to um militant meetings socialist party meetings oa very occasionally. Um you know when I moved to London some of the people I gravitated towards were socialist party activists as well.
00:43:41 socialist party activists as well. So then moving to that time in paragraph 3.15 you say after Newcastle you moved to moved around for a bit and then to London in 1996.
00:43:52 London in 1996. Yeah. So now moving to your activism when you're in London and in particular around the time of knowing Carlo Saraki so around 2001 2002
00:44:04 so around 2001 2002 um as you've described um the references par 3.14
00:44:10 par 3.14 the next 15 years so after 1993 your involvement in activism is peripheral and sporadic um whilst your involvement in activism M
00:44:22 um whilst your involvement in activism M is reduced by a significant uh period as you've described. Just to be clear, you've maintained your interest in politics and activism throughout your life.
00:44:32 life. Yeah.
00:44:33 Yeah. Um and you say this through demonstrations. Did you continue campaigning? No, not really. Um reading political and activist literature.
00:44:44 literature. Yeah. Yeah, I would do that occasionally. Again, not avidly like I once would, but occasional. Yeah. I wanted to keep up with, you know, it it I I um maybe shouldn't say that, that
00:44:57 I I um maybe shouldn't say that, that might be restrict like restricted information, but um I didn't necessarily believe a media a a a mainstream media narrative and so I wanted to counter that with um other publications. So, I
00:45:11 that with um other publications. So, I did keep up with that now and then. And would you describe yourself as a socialist? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And what did that mean to you? Um well it it it means of uh sort of
00:45:23 Um well it it it means of uh sort of similar to as I was saying before um uh looking at ways to counter um the deprivation that many people are allowed
00:45:34 deprivation that many people are allowed to uh to be dragged down by and um a a a different political a sorry a different economic model uh which may benefit a
00:45:47 economic model uh which may benefit a greater um sort of sway of of the population. Yeah.
00:45:51 Yeah. So yeah, to me it's it's just um it's a way to achieve potentially to achieve um you know social economic educational
00:46:02 you know social economic educational um equality. So looking at the early 2000s, I think you said that you would rarely go to socialist party meetings. Um did you ever go to any um socialist party
00:46:13 ever go to any um socialist party meetings with Saraki? No. Um did he ever try to encourage you to attend socialist party meetings? Um same with large demonstrations. I
00:46:24 Um same with large demonstrations. I think again in and around um the early 2000s you say you were still attending large demonstrations. Yeah.
00:46:30 Yeah. Um
00:46:31 Um were socialist party events publicized within the group or similar act of use or was that more widely in the community and via the media? Um
00:46:42 Um I'm not too sure actually. I mean, Socialist Party um if if the Socialist Party are organizing for demonstr if if they're publicizing demonstrations, it the whole point is
00:46:54 demonstrations, it the whole point is that they're public. Um so, uh but I I don't think I necessarily learned of um of demonstrations through the Socialist Party. Uh that's a hard one to answer.
00:47:07 Party. Uh that's a hard one to answer. So, what kind of demonstration would you be attending around that time? Um, so I I seem to remember still attending demonstrations to do with student
00:47:18 demonstrations to do with student finance, which I wasn't personally affecting me, but um, obviously it was still very interested in in that as a subject. Um,
00:47:32 subject. Um, I I started uh later on attending stop the war events. Um and then obviously the larger demonstrations later on and and
00:47:42 and when you say later on when would that be?
00:47:44 be? 200 2003 2002 the time of your relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:50 Yeah. Um so [clears throat] looking at the time you're with um Carlos Saraki, do you recall attending any demonstrations with him?
00:47:58 with him? No.
00:48:02 And again at that time any campaigning for the Socialist Party that you did? I don't think so. No.
00:48:11 Would um Carlos Raki would have been he been aware of the demonstrations you were going on at the time you were together?
00:48:18 together? Um I I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean we weren't sort of tied together politically. That was um that wasn't a
00:48:29 politically. That was um that wasn't a big focus of our of our relationship was a political connection really. I mean actually I'll counter that with I probably
00:48:40 probably um I've I've softened me approach these days but probably then I would not have entered the relationship with anyone who wasn't I was whose politics I didn't agree or kind of admire. Um
00:48:55 agree or kind of admire. Um but yeah we weren't we we weren't politically active together. Thank you. We don't need to get this up, but in his statement, the reference is page 90, paragraph 179.1,
00:49:07 page 90, paragraph 179.1, he states, "When I met her, i.e. you, she was not politically active and not a member of the SP, Socialist Party. She was anti-olitics in general." This may
00:49:18 was anti-olitics in general." This may appear to be an obvious question, but given your background that you've described, do you agree, disagree with that description of yourself as anti-politics? Absolutely disagree. Um he I mean he
00:49:29 Absolutely disagree. Um he I mean he managed to avoid two misconduct investigations um because he said he hadn't had sexual relationships with activists. So I'm assuming that's why
00:49:40 activists. So I'm assuming that's why he's towing that line.
00:49:46 Is there any reason that you could think of he could have thought at the time that you were anti- politics? Um
00:49:55 Um no.
00:49:57 no. Um, paragraph 3.6 you explained that you were also a member [snorts] of Y um, Youth Against Racism in Europe from around 9798 for four years. Um, but
00:50:12 around 9798 for four years. Um, but again, describe yourself as not very actively involved with them. Is that right?
00:50:15 right? Absolutely. Yeah. Not not not of much use apart from as a fundraiser. And would Carlos Ry have known that you were a member of Wiry at the time? Um, yeah. again I guess so because um I
00:50:28 Um, yeah. again I guess so because um I was going to festivals to uh for for work as as part of the workers beer company um staff to raise money for y so
00:50:40 company um staff to raise money for y so I did that for three or four years and um [clears throat] just so we're clear it's right that you were not involved in no platform no
00:50:50 no and did you attend any demonstration or events of no platform with or without no
00:50:54 no cariski
00:50:56 cariski Did you attend any of their social gatherings with Carlo Saraki? Um,
00:51:02 Um, I attended lots of social gatherings with with Saraki. So, uh,
00:51:09 possibly. [laughter] I'm not sure what a no platform event that's demonstrations, isn't it? And so, no, it's um I I definitely didn't do
00:51:21 no, it's um I I definitely didn't do that where he was on duty as a steward. Okay. Um, so moving to um, paragraph 4.1 of your statement, you say you met
00:51:32 of your statement, you say you met Saraki when reconnecting with friends who were in the Socialist Party. So to be clear, um, he would have known that you had associates and friends in the
00:51:43 you had associates and friends in the Socialist Party before you entered into a relationship. That's how you met. Yeah.
00:51:47 Yeah. Um, and did you know members of no platform prior to knowing Carlos Saraki? Um,
00:51:56 Um, I guess I didn't know they were members of no platform, but yeah, you knew the the individuals. Yeah, that's why I was there because I was in a group of individuals that I'd known for some many years, some more
00:52:07 known for some many years, some more recent than that, but that was the entirely the reason why I was in the same space when he was there for the first time. So, I just want to go through a few people that maybe that both you and um,
00:52:18 people that maybe that both you and um, Kaliski knew. Were you friends with Dan Gilman? Um, not at this point. I I mean, I never really became very close to Dan Gilman, but you know, we were associates. I guess
00:52:29 associates. I guess you knew him at the time. Uh, I'm not sure if I knew Okay. Dan at the time, actually. So, you wouldn't have been able to know anything about his activism at the time? No.
00:52:38 No. Uh, what about Joe Batty? Were you friends with him at the time? Yeah.
00:52:42 Yeah. Um, and did you know anything about his [snorts] activism in the early 2000s? Um, I knew he was doing uh anti-racist work as a a um, well, I knew he was a socialist. I knew he was doing
00:52:53 socialist. I knew he was doing anti-racist work as a a steward, you know, which is, you know, pretty difficult work protecting uh, demonstrations from um, the police quite
00:53:04 demonstrations from um, the police quite apart from uh, you know, right-wing groups. So yeah. And um were you friends with his partner, the person the inquirers
00:53:15 partner, the person the inquirers referred to as Foia? Yeah.
00:53:18 Yeah. Um
00:53:20 Um again, did you know anything about her and her activism? Um again, I think lifelong socialist. Um that's what I knew about her. That's, you know, how we first got to know each
00:53:31 you know, how we first got to know each other. Um and again she's a really uh knowledgeable um and
00:53:41 um and uh respected member of that group of people.
00:53:45 people. Um again being careful of privacy. Did you know the person the inquiry is named Alfred?
00:53:50 Alfred? Yeah.
00:53:51 Yeah. Um and again um were you friends with him? What did you know about his Yeah, I I was close friends with him um because of his long-term relationship with a very old friend of mine.
00:54:03 with a very old friend of mine. And um Alfred's um girlfriend as an she was a very good friend of yours. Yes. Yeah. She was my she was one of my closest friends and still is. And was it through her that you were
00:54:15 And was it through her that you were introduced to Carlo Saraki? through that group of people really, you know, it wasn't necessarily through her, but yeah, she was one of the the group
00:54:26 yeah, she was one of the the group and again um the person in the inquir is named Mario. Were you aware of him at the time?
00:54:31 the time? Yeah. Um again, I never got particularly close to Mario, but we were in social situations often and uh we were we were good acquaintances.
00:54:42 good acquaintances. And um what was your knowledge of Saraki's friendship and interactions with these people at the time? Um well, he when I first met him, he um he seemed
00:54:53 he when I first met him, he um he seemed like a really uh accepted
00:54:57 accepted member of that group of people. Um yeah, he he seemed liked, trusted, accepted.
00:55:06 accepted. Uh yeah.
00:55:08 Uh yeah. And um did you get that impression that he was trusting, accepted before you were in a relationship with her? Yeah. [snorts] I'm not sure about the trust. I'm not sure trusted at at which point but um
00:55:22 sure trusted at at which point but um certainly
00:55:24 certainly people liked him found him very warm character. Um just [clears throat] sticking with your activism um for the moment um you comment in your statement at paragraph
00:55:36 comment in your statement at paragraph 3.9 about public disorder and in the context it's talking about campaigning against the polex as a teenager and you say I have no problem with breaking any discriminatory or
00:55:48 with breaking any discriminatory or widely damaging law and in the process acting in a way which could be termed as public disorder. Is this a view that you had when you were a teenager involved in activism or a view that you've continued
00:56:00 activism or a view that you've continued to hold into your adult life? Continue to hold that view. Yeah. I'm going to ask you in a moment about a specific event that took place on the night you actually met Saraki on the 19th of May at Hackne Town Hall. But
00:56:13 19th of May at Hackne Town Hall. But just first in general, looking at the time period of the early 2000s, do you recall being involved in any demonstrations that you consider involved public disorder
00:56:26 involved public disorder around the 2000s? Um, it's really hard to remember. I mean, you you've got to I think this is something that people who haven't got a
00:56:39 something that people who haven't got a um a history in in in demonstrating don't really understand is that at many demonstrations, especially larger ones, um the disorder often comes from police
00:56:54 um the disorder often comes from police uh violence. So, this is this is not around the 2000s, but a few years earlier, I very clearly remember being taking my young niece to a demonstration. Um, and I sat I just
00:57:09 demonstration. Um, and I sat I just wanted it to it was big and you know there was a huge crowd and it was busy. So I we sat up on a window ledge on White Hall and um I was just horrified to watch police
00:57:21 to watch police dragging people through the L. So there's there's a line of uniform police, there's a line of um police on horses, there's vans. So there's several tiers of of police line and so
00:57:36 tiers of of police line and so demonstrators at the front who were doing nothing more than shouting
00:57:42 shouting um were dragged through police lines, beaten and arrested. So I I I just I just you know allowed my young niece to witness this. I was take I was taking
00:57:54 witness this. I was take I was taking some photographs. Um, so that kind of behavior happened on many demonstrations and it was not from the side of the protesta because nobody goes to be hit
00:58:06 protesta because nobody goes to be hit by batters or sprayed with CS gas or arrested and held for several hours and released in the middle of the night by you know um territorial support group or
00:58:17 you know um territorial support group or whatever. You know it nobody sets out to for that to happen. Uh, but police often inflame the situation and that is something that people who don't demonstrate and who've never demonstrated really don't understand.
00:58:31 demonstrated really don't understand. Um, and I've forgotten your original question. I apologize. Did you ever attend any anti-fascist demonstrations? Um, not not to me memory actually, which I'm um I'm really embarrassed and sad
00:58:43 I'm um I'm really embarrassed and sad about. I'm sad that I have not done more. Um
00:58:49 more. Um again um looking at paragraph 3.18 of your statement you state that neither militant or wiry advocated using violence and you also say that neither group was staunchly pacifist and
00:59:01 group was staunchly pacifist and individuals would respond in their own way to being attacked and would protect others. And you say you can't speak for the groups but in your view they did not seek out violence. again looking at the same period just to be abundantly clear
00:59:13 same period just to be abundantly clear early 2000s any demonstrations that you attended that you witnessed any violence um I I just can't really remember that I mean if if if you're talking about the
00:59:26 mean if if if you're talking about the Hackne town hall thing that was a demonstration right okay um I I can't really remember that but you know I I will speak again to that idea
00:59:38 know I I will speak again to that idea that um
00:59:40 that um people who who organize uh who have a socialist outlook, who organize, the whole point of that is to build a really
00:59:52 whole point of that is to build a really broadbased movement with as many members as possible. And so um the idea of steaming in and attacking police or you
01:00:03 steaming in and attacking police or you know smashing things up is absolutely the opposite of what you're trying to achieve if you're trying to build a socialist movement. Um it has to appeal to everybody. It you know socialists
01:00:16 to everybody. It you know socialists organize things where children come along and children are looked after and there's things for children to do. you know, it's it it's not as um certainly Saraki would have you believe um a group
01:00:29 Saraki would have you believe um a group of um you know, leftwing extremists for a propensity for violence. I think he uses in one of his statements uh that's completely either misunderstanding
01:00:40 completely either misunderstanding and I believe he did misunderstand possibly willfully misunderstood um what those movements were about. Um, did [clears throat] you get the impression for conversations you were having with him?
01:00:51 having with him? No. No. As I say, the conversations I had with him politically, he seemed like I was when I was like 15 and first expressing me enthusiasm for socialism,
01:01:02 expressing me enthusiasm for socialism, you know, and I I did think, oh, bless, you know, he's he's founded in his 30s, but at least he's here with us, you know. So, um, no. Um, moving [clears throat] now to the
01:01:13 Um, moving [clears throat] now to the Hackne Town Hall. Um I'm I'm going to ask you how this um your relationship evolved from that. But first just looking at the details um of the occupation of town hall and what
01:01:25 occupation of town hall and what happened there. At paragraph 4.8 um you state that you met Saraki and a group of activist friends at Samuel Peep's pub which was the last night of the pub was open to the public. Has it been
01:01:37 open to the public. Has it been scheduled for demolition as part of the expansion of the Hackne Empire Theater? Is that right? Yes. about how many people were in your social group that you'd met that evening? Do you remember?
01:01:48 evening? Do you remember? Um I seem to remember about 10 or 12 and were these [clears throat] activists from any particular groups. Uh and if so, which ones do you recall?
01:02:02 Uh and if so, which ones do you recall? There were socialist party activists there. There were militant activists who hadn't transferred to the Socialist Party. Um, so you know, two of my very
01:02:13 Party. Um, so you know, two of my very old friends were there and one of their partners. Um, there were anarchists there.
01:02:21 there. Uh, yeah, that's about as far as I remember.
01:02:24 remember. Are you talking in general the crowd that were there rather than your the group?
01:02:30 group? Yeah. And looking at paragraph 4.9 of your statement, you say, "It was a warm early summer evening and dozens of people had stayed past closing to chat in the square outside Hackne Town Hall.
01:02:41 in the square outside Hackne Town Hall. The mood was sociable and buoyant and people stayed around for quite some time. Was that a mood um a good one throughout the evening?" Absolutely. I remember it. Obviously, it's been soured now by the the horrible
01:02:54 it's been soured now by the the horrible end to the evening, but um I remember it as a really lovely evening and the mood was [clears throat] really really nice. It was a a beautiful summer's evening and people came out of this pub that
01:03:06 and people came out of this pub that lots of people had really a real fondness for knowing it was the last night and the mood was great. At any point did anyone move off to London Fields after the pub closed or did you stay in the town hall? No idea. Not no one I was with or no one
01:03:18 No idea. Not no one I was with or no one I was aware of moving off. You had you've got to appreciate I'd had a few drinks.
01:03:24 drinks. Um at paragraph 4.9 you say as time wore on planned cuts by Hatne Council to accommodate a funding shortfall became a topic of conversation and a few people
01:03:35 topic of conversation and a few people gained access to the town hall in protest. Where did this topic of conversation arise from? Was it within your social group or was it from the general crowd? You were um I think from the general crowd. Yeah. I remember being a little bit sort of
01:03:47 I remember being a little bit sort of flitty and talking to lots of different people who had never met before cuz the mood was just, you know, really positive. Um, so yeah, I I wasn't aware that, you know, there was sort of that
01:04:00 that, you know, there was sort of that much feeling for uh, you know, against these cuts at the time. Um, so yeah, that's how I learned of it just by chatting to Do you recall how the conversation
01:04:11 Do you recall how the conversation turned from talk about cuts to people gaining access to the town hall? No, I don't. It was It seemed like an utterly surreal um kind of uh escalation of of
01:04:22 surreal um kind of uh escalation of of the uh events really. And you say a few people gained access. Do you recall how many people were involved in breaking in? Um no. I mean I think I think it just
01:04:34 Um no. I mean I think I think it just began with a couple of people um trying to break in. Um but I you you might come to this but I entered the building and as the building
01:04:46 entered the building and as the building was opened all the people went in as well. So I think it just began with a couple of people and then it kind of um a stream
01:04:55 a stream and do you recall what they were doing to to get in? No.
01:04:59 No. And do you recall if um Carlos Raki had any involvement in breaking into the town hall? No, he didn't. I'm pretty sure. And did you see any um damage to anything outside the hall?
01:05:11 outside the hall? Uh no, I I wasn't really aware. I mean inside people were like um you know knocking things off desks and uh you know um I didn't pay a great deal of
01:05:23 know um I didn't pay a great deal of attention because I I was absolutely desperate for a toilet. We'd been standing outside for a couple of hours chatting and so that was the reason I I went in was to use the bathroom. All right. Okay. Um, and once access had
01:05:36 right. Okay. Um, and once access had been gained, do you recall how many people went into the town hall? No, it's [clears throat] it's such a blur. I don't a few. And um,
01:05:47 And um, you say you saw some people knocking things off desks. Did you see anyone causing any damage inside that you remember?
01:05:53 remember? Well, apart from, you know, lashing things on the floor, not really. No, I mean people weren't damaging the the fabric of the building, you know.
01:06:04 fabric of the building, you know. Um, [clears throat] paragraph 4.10, as you've described, you decided to go in um to use the toilet. Um, did you think there was any risk to your safety going into that hall because
01:06:16 your safety going into that hall because of what was going on? No, no, no, no. The the I mean, it was it was obviously genuine anger why people gained access and and threw things on the floor and whatever, but
01:06:27 things on the floor and whatever, but no, the
01:06:28 no, the you know, safe group of people really. I could get up the intelligence report that we have about that. The reference is MPS treble05972 tab C1.
01:06:40 tab C1. So this is a um report titled Hackne Town Hall occupation and as you can see there the top it's attributed to Kraggy Island which is Carlos Saraki's um code
01:06:51 Island which is Carlos Saraki's um code name. It's dated the 21st of May and it describes the events that occurred on the 19th of May at Hackne Town Hall. If we first just look at the special branch references, you can see um the wombles
01:07:04 references, you can see um the wombles and class war listed. Do you recall any members of those groups being there? Would you have known? No. No, I never even heard of the wombles until um apart from the Wimbledon common wombles. I'd heard
01:07:16 Wimbledon common wombles. I'd heard nothing of them until fairly recently to be honest. Clueless. And then if we look at paragraph one,
01:07:25 [clears throat] we can see the hat tool town hall occupation disorder on the 19th of May was [snorts] arranged to coincide with the closing D party at the Samuel Peep's public house adjacent to
01:07:37 Samuel Peep's public house adjacent to the town hall. The disorder seemed to have been pre-planned by anarchist agitators who took advantage of the large number of alternatives who were in the area for a reggae festival in
01:07:48 the area for a reggae festival in Londonfield as well as the party at the public house. Allesia Lungi and privacy of WBLE's fame were in and around the public house shortly before the trouble started as were privacy and a number of
01:07:59 started as were privacy and a number of class war uh comrades. From your perspective, did the action appear spontaneous or pre-planned? totally spontaneous. Um, did you see any of those advocating
01:08:11 Um, did you see any of those advocating to enter the town hall encouraging others who were there, including those at the reggae festival and pub to join in?
01:08:16 in? No.
01:08:17 No. If we look at paragraph two, the evening was peaceful until about um 12:30, 1:00 a.m. uh when the single serial of police
01:08:28 a.m. uh when the single serial of police officers in front of the town hall appeared to have been withdrawn without replacement. Do you recall police being present and leaving around 12:31? No. Do
01:08:39 No. Do you think that could have been possible? It could be. I guess I generally you tend to notice police, you know. I doubt they crept in, but um yeah, I I didn't notice police until uh I exited Hackne
01:08:51 notice police until uh I exited Hackne Town Hall. Um then [clears throat] says this sent all the wrong messages to a very drunk stoned crowd, some of who climbed up on the front balcony of the town hall. That was quickly followed by
01:09:03 town hall. That was quickly followed by the forcing open of the front doors and subsequent damage to the interior. How would you describe the atmosphere amongst the crowd a at some people gained entry?
01:09:14 gained entry? Was it aggressive or No. No. Um I I think it became apparent that people were angry about the cuts um that were taking
01:09:26 angry about the cuts um that were taking place because obviously you know this wasn't some uh sort of like you know idea this was affecting the local community in a big way or or you know the cut the planned cuts would have
01:09:37 the cut the planned cuts would have affected
01:09:39 affected um
01:09:41 um sorry what was your question again it was simply describing the mood but right okay I I actually did I felt I guess I felt a mood change because um
01:09:52 guess I felt a mood change because um when I walked in and I saw people were uh throwing things on the floor and whatever, you know, so obviously that signals a mood change. Um before that I
01:10:04 signals a mood change. Um before that I absolutely had no idea of it. I mean if it was a load of really aggressive people who wanted to you know fight police and you know I felt in danger I
01:10:15 police and you know I felt in danger I wouldn't have gone in. Did the [clears throat] many of the crowd appear drunk? Um, how do you appear drunk? I don't know. I mean, people had obviously had a drink. I had myself because we'd been in a public house and it was a celebration
01:10:27 a public house and it was a celebration of that public house that evening. Um, but no, I don't think anybody had kind of lost control. And And were you aware of anyone in the crowd taking drugs? Uh, such as marijuana?
01:10:41 Uh, such as marijuana? No, I wasn't aware of it, but yeah. Do you recall people climbing onto the front balcony? I remember a people a couple of people getting up and they, you know, they were they were making
01:10:53 you know, they were they were making they they were making political points basically not to inflame to actually you know in a in a sort of a way to kind of discuss you know what I mean it was
01:11:06 of discuss you know what I mean it was there was nothing untoward you know it was
01:11:09 was um if we can bring up the next document which is MPS071
01:11:15 94 tab B6 six of the bundle. This is a chron a chronological list of deployment of Kraggy Island. So um Carlosi
01:11:27 Carlosi uh and if you go to the last paragraph of page three which goes into page four
01:11:38 and it document appears to summarize what happened at Hackne Town Hall.
01:11:47 So CEO was able to provide real coverage re planned um action against Hackne Town Hall. Um, we've discussed the planned point and then into the next page. It
01:11:58 point and then into the next page. It comments on local activists from class war, IWCA, the SP and SWP planned to storm the town hall at approximately midnight 1 a.m. and cause serious
01:12:09 midnight 1 a.m. and cause serious criminal damage to the venue as a protest against the council and its cuts in the burough. Again, were you aware of IWCA? I presume that's the independent workingclass association or the social
01:12:20 workingclass association or the social working workers party being in attendance as effective groups to protest.
01:12:26 protest. No, it was entirely social. Um and then it [clears throat] continues uh CI provided realtime intel. So, CI
01:12:37 uh CI provided realtime intel. So, CI Kraggy Island uh read the situation which resulted in the central London Reserve being deployed and prevented serious public disorder by a crowd of 200 drunk and potentially aggressive
01:12:48 200 drunk and potentially aggressive people. At the point that people were gaining access to the town hall, how many people were in the crowd? Was there 200?
01:12:57 200? There there was a fair a fair amount. Yeah, I I I can't say. I didn't look and try to assess the number of people who were there. As I say, I was I was carried away by the really positive mood
01:13:09 carried away by the really positive mood outside, you know, the public house. And were you with Carlos Rocky throughout the events at the town hall? Um,
01:13:17 Um, apart from when I went in to use the bathroom pretty much so. Yeah. Um, do you recall him having a mobile phone or making a call at any point? No.
01:13:28 No. um we don't need to get it up but at page 84 on paragraph 166 of his statement he refers to this um incident and what he says is it was invaded and
01:13:40 and what he says is it was invaded and occupied in a demonstration against the plan cuts someone forced entry to the premises caused criminal damage and there was a public disorder outside. He goes on to say, "This was an incident I remember when I only learned about the
01:13:52 remember when I only learned about the plan shortly beforehand and I had to pretend to go to the toilet and sent a text to the SDS number to provide advanced information of this. Do you recall Saraki going to the toilet or disappearing as the incident started?"
01:14:04 disappearing as the incident started?" 25 year goes 25 years ago. I would not have remembered someone going to the toilet. But um [laughter] it's uh
01:14:13 it's uh yeah, I I'd be very Did he Did he send that text? Have you proof that he sent that text? I'm just asking whether you recall any point of he disappearing. Um I I wasn't making notes of people
01:14:26 Um I I wasn't making notes of people going to the toilet. If we go um back to the chronology that we were just on um page nine 071194
01:14:46 and uh just under exposure to violent situation that midway through the paragraph starting confrontations with uniformed police were frequent.
01:14:58 And it [clears throat] says he had uh to tread the fine line between being seen to do what was expected by his activist associates and avoid putting himself into arrestful situations. And then at the last sentence he says the officer
01:15:11 the last sentence he says the officer Aisa Raki was teargassed and struck with a baton at the serious disturbances at Hackne Town Hall following the closure of the Samuel Peeps pub. Um paragraph 4.10 10 of your statement, you recall
01:15:24 4.10 10 of your statement, you recall the tear gas and you say that he um and your friend were struck by um a baton. You say during the melee, all of us were pepper-sprayed by the police. Um h how
01:15:36 pepper-sprayed by the police. Um h how did the you get involved in what you describe as the melee? How did that happen? Um to my recollection uh I I'd gone in to use the bathroom and um
01:15:47 gone in to use the bathroom and um Saraki and my really old friend had had waited outside for me. Um so when I went in and I was in there probably I don't
01:15:58 in and I was in there probably I don't know 10 minutes maximum. Um there were no police outside otherwise I wouldn't have been gained access I wouldn't have gained access. So, I went in. When I came out, there were um quite a few um
01:16:14 came out, there were um quite a few um possibly riot police. I'm not too sure. Um and
01:16:19 Um and so they they were quite aggressive. Um my friends, I'm including Saraki in that for the moment. Um were just on the
01:16:31 for the moment. Um were just on the steps waiting for me to come out so to make sure I was safe. Um, and they were they literally were waiting for me. That was what they were
01:16:42 waiting for me. That was what they were doing. And both of them ended up being hit by batters and all of us ended up being
01:16:49 being sprayed by tear gas or CS, whatever. [snorts]
01:16:52 [snorts] Um, so, uh, yeah, this confrontations with uniform police, you know, that's not what it was. It was it was people still in the area. the police didn't
01:17:03 still in the area. the police didn't want you in the area and so they took aggressive action to um remove you from the area.
01:17:11 the area. And you [clears throat] say at paragraph 4.11 of your statement, you were not seriously injured but were shaken. What was the impact of this event on you? Um
01:17:21 Um well yeah the the impact of any um aggressive action by the police like that uh it does have an impact because uh it's quite stark at that point the
01:17:33 uh it's quite stark at that point the power relationship you are in with police officers and how they often um uh use that power relationship to their
01:17:44 uh use that power relationship to their advantage. So they will be the aggressors for instance and then if you respond even with words you know they they see that as um being given the okay
01:17:56 they see that as um being given the okay to to to escalate the aggression. Um oh sorry what's your question again? What was the impact of this event? The impact I don't remember I remember
01:18:07 The impact I don't remember I remember the pain of the gas and trying to get it off. Um, I remember feeling terribly guilty that me really close friend had been struck by batterns. Um,
01:18:19 been struck by batterns. Um, and sprayed gas, you know, tear gas. Um but I I don't I don't remember any I you know you have to you have to appreciate
01:18:30 know you have to you have to appreciate by this point I'd had quite a lot of contact with police on demonstrations and um I ne I did not expect a particularly positive outcome from that. So um you know it wasn't like some
01:18:44 So um you know it wasn't like some massive shock that the police would behave like that but yeah it increases your anxiety around police and and your expectation that actually they are going to misuse the power they have given the
01:18:57 to misuse the power they have given the opportunity. Looking at [clears throat] Ko Saraki's um activism again, we don't need to get it up, but at page 26, paragraph 40 49 of his
01:19:08 at page 26, paragraph 40 49 of his statement, he states his initial tasking was that I was told to target violent anti-fascist groups called stewarding groups. And at 4.22 of your statement, you recall that Saraki would steward for
01:19:19 you recall that Saraki would steward for no platform at highprofile anti-fascist demonstrations. Um you reiterate at 5.4 four and 5.5 of your statement that you weren't involved with no platform and therefore didn't
01:19:30 with no platform and therefore didn't witness anything um that he was involved in but did he discuss his stewarding role with you and what he was doing? um not in depth I imagine but I I was kind
01:19:43 not in depth I imagine but I I was kind of aware that that you know that that is such an important role to to protect demonstrators from counter demonstrators and the police and I I quite I was I
01:19:55 and the police and I I quite I was I totally admired what these stewards were doing but I I don't think I ever really asked in great detail. Um [clears throat] so just looking at what you discussed with Saraki about
01:20:09 what you discussed with Saraki about politics and police at paragraph 4.21 of you you state that Saraki seemed very new to socialism which is what you've spoke about um before
01:20:21 spoke about um before um
01:20:22 um and that you found that um endearing the way that he was getting interested in politics. And you also uh refer to um that being a prerequisite for a close
01:20:35 that being a prerequisite for a close relationship at the time. If he had not had those interests, would you have still wanted to be in a relationship with him?
01:20:43 with him? Um
01:20:45 Um most likely not because um he
01:20:51 he I mean I don't wish to be mean here, but he was no great physical beauty. So,
01:20:57 So, I'm really not trying to be mean. Um, so, uh, my attraction to him was his personality, warmth, but also his
01:21:08 personality, warmth, but also his political interest. That that is always something that I needed to to really make a proper connection with somebody. So um
01:21:19 So um yeah it and un unless that raw physical attraction is there you know that might possibly overcome someone not being socialist but even then probably not uh
01:21:30 socialist but even then probably not uh back then
01:21:31 back then and at 4.23 of your statement you um describe one uh incident where you were of course expressing an attitude towards the
01:21:42 expressing an attitude towards the police and this was at a party at someone's house. There was a guest there who lacked some social skills and at some point Saraki claimed that the man was a police informant or a plant
01:21:53 was a police informant or a plant suggesting that the man be thrown out of this party. Uh uh it didn't seem to be taken seriously by anyone at the time, but you found it out of character and desri described it as disturbing and
01:22:04 desri described it as disturbing and distasteful. Looking back on that episode, knowing what you now know about Carlos Raki, how has that incident impacted you?
01:22:16 Um,
01:22:20 I'm I don't think there's any impact having found out his true role really. Um, there was an impact at the time because I'd never seen that side of Carlo. He was a gent a gentle
01:22:33 Carlo. He was a gent a gentle person as as far as I was concerned. He was he he was a gentle, respectful person. And so that was that was like a wo [laughter] kind of moment. Again, we'd we were in a social situation. We
01:22:44 we'd we were in a social situation. We were in a party in someone's house and we'd all had a few drinks. Um it I just remember at the time it making me feel very uncomfortable. Um I mean now obviously it it's it's takes on quite a
01:22:57 obviously it it's it's takes on quite a dark character that he was attempting to uh
01:23:03 uh raise suspicion over this completely harmless guy. Um, no one took him particularly seriously and I seem to remember uh everybody being a little bit
01:23:14 remember uh everybody being a little bit takenback by uh the vehements in his his voice. Um, but yeah, the the the impact was was
01:23:25 but yeah, the the the impact was was more at the time I would say because it it was a bit of a oh, I haven't seen that side of his character before moment. And looking at [clears throat] um now looking at your thoughts on the
01:23:36 um now looking at your thoughts on the police at paragraph 7.12 of your statement you say Saraki knew my attit attitude towards the police force and had witnessed my response to them after
01:23:47 had witnessed my response to them after our experience at Hackne Town Hall. I had been quite candid about my thoughts at the time. What was your response to police after your experience at Hackne Town Hall? And what were those candid
01:23:59 Town Hall? And what were those candid thoughts to Saraki at the time? Um well pretty much what I've expressed here today to be honest me contact with police have been almost entirely negative up until that point because I
01:24:12 negative up until that point because I been a demonstrator and uh I and the sort of target of of police aggression on demonstrations as a perfectly lawful demonstrator.
01:24:23 demonstrator. Um
01:24:26 so so sorry ask you a question again. My brain's starting to feel a bit fuzzy. I was I haven't slept very well. Can you ask your question again? Sorry.
01:24:37 Can you ask your question again? Sorry. You just simply explained in your statement that you expressed your view about the police to Saraki at the time after Hack and I just wanted to explore what it was, what that view was you told him and what he was aware of.
01:24:48 him and what he was aware of. Yeah, it's I I must have made them aware of um my past experience. Um I'm not saying entirely. I have met absolutely
01:24:59 saying entirely. I have met absolutely wonderful community police in the past as well, people who really should be doing that job. Um, but my by far the greater contact in [clears throat] my life has been with people who should not hold that power because they misuse it.
01:25:12 hold that power because they misuse it. Um, and so, you know, I'll have been pretty candid, I guess, about my previous experience. Um, you know, one one of those times, I
01:25:23 Um, you know, one one of those times, I don't know whether you'll come on to it. You know, I saw a police van being driven at demonstrators in a crowd and uh and that was a a a huge demonstration in support of the sack
01:25:34 demonstration in support of the sack Liverpool dock workers and um I rang the media about it. I took down the um the registration plate and rang the media who were very interested until they
01:25:45 who were very interested until they realized my accent and thought I was possibly you know fabricating that
01:25:52 that that incident was not at the time you were with
01:25:54 were with that was before that was before so so all this informed my experience my attitude that I would have expressed to Saraki um and the photograph on me wall
01:26:06 photograph on me wall if we could just get that up that's That's UCPI 38233 and there's a photograph of a forward intelligence team you say threatening a photographer you knew page two during a
01:26:19 photographer you knew page two during a protest of the sack Liverpool duckwes in mid 1990s and you say you made candid thoughts to Saraki prompted by this photo that the similar kind of thoughts that you expressed during the time of hackne town hall.
01:26:30 hackne town hall. Yeah. Yeah. especially as the photographer is a friend of mine and um was just he's he's a professional photographer and was just taking photographs and that's why the aggression I mean you know obviously
01:26:41 aggression I mean you know obviously there's the humor as well of them all being from Liverpool and having mustaches but um we you know the even the woman behind the camera's probably got a mustache um [laughter] but yeah I mean it would it it prompted
01:26:54 but yeah I mean it would it it prompted a conversation about um my past experience with people misusing the power they've and trusted. From your conversations about the police with him, do you think it would have
01:27:05 with him, do you think it would have been obvious to him that if he was a police officer, he would not have engaged in a relationship? Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, we can take that down. Thank you. Now, moving to um your relationship.
01:27:20 Now, moving to um your relationship. Um, we don't need to get it up, but his witness statement, page 87, paragraph 175,
01:27:27 175, uh, he says, "Part of my cover and legend was that I had recently come out of a long-term relationship and I had a young child as a result of that relationship. [snorts] As a result, I presented to my target group as reluctant to get involved in a
01:27:39 reluctant to get involved in a relationship because of the recent failed one." [snorts] I'll come back to his son in a moment. H, but at paragraph paragraph 4.4, Four, you state that Saraki had told his new friends he was
01:27:50 Saraki had told his new friends he was unhappily single and looking for a part for a partner. So were these friends in the socialist party who you were also friends with? Yeah.
01:27:58 Yeah. And did they tell you that that is what he said?
01:28:01 he said? Yeah. So so basically did they tell you at the time? Yeah. So basically I um I knew of of Saraki before I first met him in the
01:28:12 Saraki before I first met him in the Samuel Peeps. Um so
01:28:17 so as I say he was quite well accepted and people were really fond of him had very disarming sort of nature. Um and so his
01:28:29 disarming sort of nature. Um and so his expression of him being so unhappily single, you know, people who had obviously empathy towards him at this point wanted to um solve that um source of unhappiness. So before I met him, he
01:28:42 of unhappiness. So before I met him, he he'd been lined up with several dates with a real another really old friend of mine. Um and uh she has definitely dodged a bullet in that they never
01:28:53 dodged a bullet in that they never actually
01:28:55 actually started a relationship. Um
01:28:59 Um so I I had also been told that there's this really lovely, gentle, intelligent, you know, humorous, self- afacing guy.
01:29:10 you know, humorous, self- afacing guy. People really really cared for him actually. um who was looking for a partner and so I I had been pre-rimed with with you know that information when
01:29:22 with with you know that information when I first met him. Um and his statement again we don't need to get it at page 88 paragraph 176 he states that my experience from early on in my deployment was that the activists
01:29:33 in my deployment was that the activists I got to know were regularly regularly interested in relationships and trying to pair colleagues off. From your experience of being an activist, how usual was it for people to be in sexual
01:29:44 usual was it for people to be in sexual relationships with other members of that activist group? I mean, it's it's the same probably for any environment, work environment, friendship circle. You know, occasional
01:29:56 friendship circle. You know, occasional relationships are formed, occasionally they last, occasionally they break down. I mean, it I wouldn't say it was particularly promiscuous. Um but then
01:30:08 particularly promiscuous. Um but then also um
01:30:10 also um you know they're a liberated group of people. So uh yeah it's it's a really difficult one to answer. I mean obviously Saraki is saying this because
01:30:22 obviously Saraki is saying this because he would like you to believe that he had no choice but to enter into a relationship and that is completely false. Um there were lots of single people in that circle but also lots of
01:30:35 people in that circle but also lots of people dead. And the single people [clears throat] um in your activist um friendship group uh would they be less accepted within the group if because they weren't in a
01:30:46 group if because they weren't in a relationship? No.
01:30:47 No. And uh if they weren't in a relationship, did it affect the level of trust that was given to them? No. It's their personalities that mattered. It's not the sexual activity or history or, you know, it's it's
01:31:00 or history or, you know, it's it's entirely social relationships that matter in these circles. And again, from your experience, was it common for activists to try and set each other up with friends or other activists?
01:31:11 with friends or other activists? Well, as common as it is in a workplace, you know what I mean? as common it is amongst friends and associates, you know, but when somebody demonstrabably is
01:31:22 demonstrabably is unhappy with their current situation in terms of a a partner or the lack of um you know, people who care for that person are obviously going to try to
01:31:34 person are obviously going to try to help them resolve what they what they are expressing as their problem.
01:31:40 problem. [clears throat] an introduction to someone for a romantic reason was turned down by a member of the group, would that have made someone less trusted with the group or suspicious of them? No. No. You weren't expected to sleep
01:31:51 No. No. You weren't expected to sleep with people just because, you know, [laughter] they're there. You know, it was it's it wasn't a charitable endeavor. Do you know what I mean? It was um it it's entirely based on uh whether people
01:32:04 entirely based on uh whether people click or not. So, in paragraph 4.4 four of your saint. You say that Saraki was initially introduced to a good friend that you've just mentioned. Yeah.
01:32:12 Yeah. Um and this was before you and he got together.
01:32:15 together. Yeah.
01:32:16 Yeah. Um and you were aware of that at the time. Yeah. And you say this didn't um amount to anything. Do you know if that's because he said
01:32:26 he said this is not we're not going to go through with this or she said or do you know how it didn't I think there was a certain amount of just kind of missing each other for various reasons but you know I do reflect on now this is
01:32:40 but you know I do reflect on now this is this is a very perceptive woman and she's a professional and has worked alongside police uh throughout her professional career and so she knows um
01:32:51 professional career and so she knows um a lot of you know, just through a professional life. And um she said to him um I think I'm not sure whether they were on a date or whether it was just a
01:33:03 were on a date or whether it was just a general social, but she said to him, "Oh, uh loads of police, wear those shoes." And I think funnily enough, they didn't really uh he didn't seem to want
01:33:14 didn't really uh he didn't seem to want to meet her again after that. He must on reflection he must have been quite terrified by her perceptive and this is this is a friend of yours something she has told you about. Yeah.
01:33:25 something she has told you about. Yeah. Yeah. It's a source of Was she an activist? Um no no politically minded but not an activist.
01:33:33 activist. Moving now to your [clears throat] relationship um with Carlo Saraki. Um he says um for reference page 90 paragraph 179.1 I met her Lindsay at a social
01:33:46 179.1 I met her Lindsay at a social drink when I think she came to meet privacy. Uh we got on well we flirted and we arranged to meet later. At paragraph 1.2 of your second
01:33:57 At paragraph 1.2 of your second statement you say that you first met Saraki shortly after you'd returned from traveling in the USA for a few months. Do you recall when that was when you returned from the USA? Uh it was mid May 2001.
01:34:12 Uh it was mid May 2001. Um and [clears throat] in your first statement, you initially thought that you'd met Carlos Raki on the 12th of May 2001, and that you'd gone to his flat
01:34:23 2001, and that you'd gone to his flat and stayed the night a week later on the 19th of May, the night of the Hackne tour town hall. But in your second statement that references par one paragraph 1.5 after speaking with a
01:34:35 paragraph 1.5 after speaking with a friend of yours who you've called ex she recalls going with you and Saraki to his flat on the 19th of May and you say you trust her recollection more than your
01:34:46 trust her recollection more than your own about that. So what why do you trust her recollection regarding what happened on the 19th of May over your own initial memory in your first witness statement? because of the dramatic events around
01:34:58 because of the dramatic events around the 19th of May outside Hackne Town Hall. I I just have images of um the some of these very dramatic things. And so I had an image of me being in
01:35:10 so I had an image of me being in Saraki's cover flat um and us washing this tear gas or whatever it was from our faces. Um, so I assumed that was the
01:35:23 our faces. Um, so I assumed that was the first time that we'd actually I I I assumed that was our first date rather than the first time we'd met. Um, I don't actually remember our first date at all. So that is why I'd sort of
01:35:37 at all. So that is why I'd sort of attached those memories to that event. But this friend of mine kind of filled in some of the detail that she was actually there as well washing the um
01:35:48 actually there as well washing the um stuff from her face. And that brought back other memories to me that yeah, that was that wasn't actually our first date.
01:35:57 date. So yeah,
01:35:58 So yeah, as sure as you can be, you think that the first time you met was on the 19th of May at Hackne Town Hall? I do now believe that is the case. Yeah. Um
01:36:14 and then throughout that evening, you said at paragraph 4.6 of your statement that you chatted on and off throughout the evening and there was no immediate physical attraction, but you were left with the impression that you had the
01:36:26 with the impression that you had the potential to get on well. How did Kalisraki act towards you on that first evening you met? Um he was u
01:36:37 evening you met? Um he was u attentive
01:36:39 attentive um slightly flirtatious but not not too over over the top you know it was quite an understated character and quite self- aacing which and humorous and those are
01:36:51 aacing which and humorous and those are all things that really appealed to me. Um,
01:36:54 Um, so yeah, it wasn't obvious as to, you know, potentially cause embarrassment or, you know, he didn't come across as um,
01:37:06 um, you know, like kind of sort of slimy or anything. You know what I mean? He didn't come across as over the top. Um, but he did initiate conversation sort of repeatedly. And you know, you can sort
01:37:18 repeatedly. And you know, you can sort of tell if there's an interest from someone really. Um, do you recall flirting with him as well?
01:37:26 well? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Yeah, I enjoyed meeting him. And did you get the impression that he wanted to be romantically involved with you?
01:37:33 you? I'm not sure if I did or not at that point.
01:37:37 point. Um,
01:37:38 Um, on that night, you ended up at his flat in Hackne so you could wash the pepper spray out of your faces. At paragraph 4.13 of your statement, you recall his
01:37:49 4.13 of your statement, you recall his flat was bare of possessions other than absolutely necessary items and a bike on training stands. At the time, I had reasoned that despite his upbeat persona, Saraki must have experienced
01:38:00 persona, Saraki must have experienced episodes of depression resulting in his flats neglected appearance. How did that make you feel towards him at the time? Um, well, obviously empathetic. You know, it's it's it's uh
01:38:14 know, it's it's it's uh you know, it's it's kind of an unspoken thing really that if if someone is in an environment that they that is sparse, that isn't looked after, um that maybe then they're they're not
01:38:26 um that maybe then they're they're not feeling entirely at their best, you know? I don't mean like messy or whatever, like I mean like really sparse and un unloved environment. Um so yeah,
01:38:37 and un unloved environment. Um so yeah, I I kind of it I I did feel slightly empathetic. I I do have a sort of um rescue element to me character, you know, and that and and seeing somebody
01:38:49 know, and that and and seeing somebody that I thought may be someone who understands depression or experiences pain or whatever that that triggers the empathy gene. Do you recall [snorts] visiting him at
01:39:00 Do you recall [snorts] visiting him at any other flat that he was staying at? No.
01:39:05 Um [clears throat] you um in your first statement say at paragraph 4.7, the weekend after we first met, I asked Sarak Saraki if he would meet up with me
01:39:16 Sarak Saraki if he would meet up with me again and he agreed. As you now recall your first meeting being on the 19th of May, do you recall when you arranged to meet up for a first date? I think it was probably the 25th of May.
01:39:29 I think it was probably the 25th of May. The reason I'm saying that, I've got no memory whatsoever, by the way, but I trying to look at me employment sort history at the time. I did manage to contact an employer who um actually
01:39:41 contact an employer who um actually sacked me on the 25th of May because I was supposed to turn up for a night shift and I didn't because I went back to Saraki's flat with him. Um so yeah,
01:39:52 to Saraki's flat with him. Um so yeah, because of that being my last the termination the date of the termination of my employment, I um assume that that is the first actual date. And do you recall who it was who suggested that
01:40:04 recall who it was who suggested that date?
01:40:06 date? Um, it might well have been me. You know, I'd just done a lot of traveling. Uh, I was feeling really great physically, psychologically. I was feeling excellent. And um I I just
01:40:20 feeling excellent. And um I I just wanted a bit of fun when I came back. Um, and [clears throat] just to be clear, you you don't recall any of the details of where you went on that first date or what you did.
01:40:31 that first date or what you did. Unfortunately, not who made the move for the first kiss or anything along those lines. Absolutely no memory, I'm afraid. And do you recall if that is the evening where your sexual relationship began?
01:40:43 where your sexual relationship began? Yes, it is. Yeah. Paragraph 4.14 of your statement. You recall you recall initiating the sexual relationship. Is that I think I probably did. Yeah.
01:40:55 I think I probably did. Yeah. Do you think there were potential excuses he could have made to not have sex that evening in a way that would not upset or hurt you? Yeah, I didn't have his arm up his back. You know what I mean? I It literally was
01:41:07 You know what I mean? I It literally was a reciprocal thing. And I'm fairly I am fairly astute at picking up social cues. So if he was disinterested or uncomfortable, I think with my
01:41:18 uncomfortable, I think with my openness or sexual interest in him, I think he, you know, um, I'd have picked up on that and I'd have definitely stepped back.
01:41:29 stepped back. Um, [clears throat] paragraph 4.14, you go on to say, "I remember feeling that I just wanted to have a bit of fun after what had been a quite traumatic end to the evening, the the the week before."
01:41:40 the evening, the the the week before." Yeah. Yeah. which doesn't ring true now because that was just the first time we met. You know, I wanted I did I did want a bit of fun after coming back from a really liberating experience in in the United States.
01:41:51 United States. You then go on to say, "I just come out of an important long-term relationship the year before and was not interested in jumping into another at this stage. Was Saraki aware that you had just come
01:42:02 Was Saraki aware that you had just come out of an important long-term relationship?" I don't know. Do you know when he became aware? No. No. Was was he aware that that had I think probably he was. Yeah. Because I I resisted for a long time jumping into
01:42:16 I resisted for a long time jumping into another relationship. I'd lived with somebody. It had been the most important relationship in me life. It I was absolutely devastated by the end of it and I was homeless at the end of it. And so um I will have made him aware at some
01:42:30 so um I will have made him aware at some stage that this was just a bit of fun to me at the beginning. Um, so you Yeah, that you've anticipated my next question, which is at that point he would have been aware that you
01:42:41 he would have been aware that you weren't looking for anything serious at the time.
01:42:43 the time. I'm sure in in in an unspoken way, you know, he'll have been aware that Yeah. I wasn't chasing him down to Did he indicate to you at that time what he was interested in, whether it was
01:42:55 he was interested in, whether it was casual or long-term? Not that I recall, I'm afraid. Um, and was there any discussion, do you recall at that stage about how your relationship was going to progress?
01:43:07 relationship was going to progress? Again, I don't really think we planned at this point. Paragraph 4.7 of your statement, you say, "I liked Saraki and gradually
01:43:18 say, "I liked Saraki and gradually became hopeful about what our relationship might develop into." Do you recall at what stage you became hopeful that that relationship was going to develop? Um I can only sort of pinpoint
01:43:29 develop? Um I can only sort of pinpoint one
01:43:31 one particular um time. It might have happened before this. Um
01:43:38 this. Um I don't know whether you are you going to come on to the the me surprise birthday party or shall I mention that now?
01:43:45 now? No, I I'll I'll come on to your your your birthday party in Liverpool. Yeah, I'll come on to that. Right. Okay. So that that was the point that I really thought, oh okay, this is actually going somewhere.
01:43:58 Um, did Saraki give you any indications um that he thought it was going to develop into something more serious or was it more of a natural progression without discussion?
01:44:09 without discussion? Um, he started telling me that he loved me. He started saying things like, you know, I've never never met anybody like you. And um and that kind of really complimentary
01:44:24 behavior, words, you know, um really started to to kind of break me barriers down cuz I I I wasn't prepared to trust anybody again. Well, not for the time
01:44:36 anybody again. Well, not for the time being anyway. Um but it was that behavior, that constant declaration of love um
01:44:45 love um that yeah just just made me start to think that yeah there was some longevity in this.
01:44:51 in this. And do you recall around when his behavior changed to the declarations of love? Um do you recall when in in in your relationship? I realize it's a very long time ago.
01:45:02 long time ago. I'm afraid I don't. As I say, that surprise birthday party was a bit of a I remember as a bit of a watershed. It might have been before that, but I remember as a bit a bit of a realization
01:45:14 remember as a bit a bit of a realization that um yeah, there was there was something to this. And did you discuss um the relationship being monogamous? Uh
01:45:25 being monogamous? Uh I'm not sure whether it was a discussion or whether it was kind of implied expected
01:45:32 expected but it it was it was a mon it was jointly understood that it was a monogous relationship. Um
01:45:43 if we could get up please. Um MPS0738103
01:45:48 tab B8. This is Carlos Saraki Saraki's operation her interview uh on the 25th of February 2014. She go to page three
01:45:59 of February 2014. She go to page three paragraph five. Um
01:46:05 Um [clears throat] and he says there were wearies who wanted relationships with me. One was an activist from Liverpool called Lindsay. Um he goes on to say she wasn't mega [clears throat] active. I met her when I
01:46:16 [clears throat] active. I met her when I came back from the Bradford riots. I saw her a number of times. We were flirty with each other. We were friendly but nothing happened. And then he goes on to talk about you being a close friend of
01:46:28 talk about you being a close friend of um privacy. And then in his statement, we don't need to bring it up, but um he talks about the the Bradford writes being in July 2001. That's page 94, paragraph 185. Um
01:46:42 2001. That's page 94, paragraph 185. Um by July 2001, were you still seeing each other casually? July 2001. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And was there anything significant that happened in July to one 2001 with
01:46:54 happened in July to one 2001 with regards to your relationship that may lead Saraki to think that it was the beginning of it? No, but you have to appreciate that that is is a complete work of fiction on behalf of Saraki. So he does whatever he
01:47:06 behalf of Saraki. So he does whatever he can to kind of confuse and obiscate the truth. Um he's got little bits semi-right, I'd say. I I
01:47:17 little bits semi-right, I'd say. I I wasn't I wasn't studying at Goldsmith's College, but I was editing MA students document documentary student videos at Goldsmiths when we first met. I didn't go to the Bradford riots. Obviously, we
01:47:29 go to the Bradford riots. Obviously, we had a relationship. Um, so yeah, it it's it took me even after seeing this, it took me a long time to unpick. Was he talking about me? Was he talking about
01:47:41 talking about me? Was he talking about the next relationship? Was he talking about his third relationship? Was he talking about the woman who he was set up on dates with before me? He, it seems, deliberately conflates lots of information and then obviously blatantly
01:47:53 information and then obviously blatantly lies as well. um [clears throat] Joe Batty when he gave um evidence and he said he would um discuss Saraki's relationship with you with Saraki and
01:48:06 relationship with you with Saraki and described it as onoff or fluid. Would you have ever described your relationship as that? um after
01:48:16 after well I I think after the first time that he um he kind of disappeared uh I've got really sketchy memory of it but I think that probably was the
01:48:28 but I think that probably was the beginning of a breaking down of that relationship. So that was probably the on-off period that Joe was referring to. So that's talking in 2002. Yes,
01:48:36 Yes, we'll come to that. Yeah. Um before that um it wasn't an on-off relationship. Um it was at first it was casual. I started to trust him through his
01:48:49 I started to trust him through his behavior. Entirely through his behavior and then to me it was a committed relationship from that point until seemingly out of the blue um he started
01:49:00 seemingly out of the blue um he started to disappear and erratic behavior started.
01:49:04 started. And if Sari had said to you he wasn't interested in a relationship, how do you think you would have reacted to that at the time?
01:49:11 the time? I would have been perfectly at ease with that. As I say, you know, I I wasn't madly in love with him from setting eyes on him for the first time. You know, it was a relationship I could have resisted
01:49:22 was a relationship I could have resisted if the if he had showed any resistance to it. So yeah, he he I didn't box him into a corner in any way. If [snorts] we could get at Carlos Saraki's statement.
01:49:33 could get at Carlos Saraki's statement. UCPI 350
01:49:35 UCPI 350 tab A1 of Saraki's bundle page 90 paragraph 179.1.
01:49:50 [snorts] Um
01:49:56 [snorts] so just four lines down he says at the time so talking about you at the time my state of mind was that this was not a part of my real world. It was not even a
01:50:07 part of my real world. It was not even a part of my undercover deployment. I had not approached her because she was of interest to my reporting. My marriage was not in a great place and this was a nice diversion and I was able to speak about this to my associates because they
01:50:19 about this to my associates because they knew who she was. What is your reaction to Saraki's reasoning for having a relationship with you? Not an excuse. Uh false. And um I mean
01:50:30 Not an excuse. Uh false. And um I mean just a disgusting display of misogyny. Um you know, he doesn't mention his he doesn't mention any impact on his his his wife at the time or family.
01:50:43 his wife at the time or family. um this this is I mean he later on says that actually it was useful to have me as a partner because I knew so there's a direct contradiction to what he says later on as well. Um but even if I was
01:50:56 later on as well. Um but even if I was to take this at face value which I don't uh that is absolutely not an excuse for sexually abusing a member of the public. Later down in this paragraph,
01:51:08 Later down in this paragraph, at the final sentence, he says, "I describe it as a casual relationship because neither of us intended it to be long-term." And she talked about having a relationship with an existing long-term partner. To be very clear, do
01:51:21 long-term partner. To be very clear, do you have did you have a relationship with an existing long-term partner at the time you were with Carlos Raki? No.
01:51:26 No. And as far as you were concerned, it was a monogous relationship. Absolutely. Um
01:51:35 so is that a convenient time to have a break?
01:51:37 break? Certainly. Um we have a break of 15 minutes in the morning so that the transcribers can have a rest. It's quite difficult for them to keep up with with all of us. Um we'll resume in a quarter of an hour.
01:51:48 of an hour. Thanks.
02:12:47 Um, moving on to the time you spent together
02:12:51 together and we don't need the reference up, but at page 90, paragraph 179.1 of Saraki's statement, he says, "I think she may have stayed with me at my cover address on one occasion, and I stayed at her
02:13:03 on one occasion, and I stayed at her address on a number of occasions. And then later on at paragraph 191, page 95 of his statement, he says, I've said above that Lindsay did stay overnight on rare occasions at my then cover flat and
02:13:16 rare occasions at my then cover flat and I stayed more regularly at her flat near Deford South London. At paragraph 4.15, you say, "Once your relation had progressed to something more serious, we
02:13:27 progressed to something more serious, we would spend two or three nights a week together. Uh at least one of those being at a weekend. Is that right? I think so. And at paragraph 4.17, we spent a large part of our time together in the company
02:13:39 part of our time together in the company of activist friends in pubs and parties and at evenings in people's flats. 50% of the time together alone, 50% with friends. Does that sound about right? It does.
02:13:49 It does. Can you give examples of the types of activities that you did with your friends when you were with Saraki? Um it was so let me just qualify that with um
02:14:00 was so let me just qualify that with um please
02:14:02 please towards the end of our relationship. Um I would see him alone more than in company with others. Um I think because
02:14:13 company with others. Um I think because I was kind of uh trying to hold the relationship together and I was kind of worried that it was you know drawing to a close really. So, um, so that sort of socializing in
02:14:27 um, so that sort of socializing in groups kind of stopped really and I I wanted to see him alone more. Um,
02:14:35 Um, and that caused a bit of constonation with me friends who felt a little bit, you know, like I I didn't care about them anymore because I was devoting me time to him. Um
02:14:47 Um so yeah we I just remember um having dinners together uh going to party you're asking me specifically about when
02:14:58 you're asking me specifically about when we were in company or you just saying generally when we were together what we do
02:15:02 do generally the types of things you did together. So for example in in Joe Batty's live evidence on the 2nd of February he recalled that you attended his 40th birthday party at the Santis in Islington with Saraki as a couple. Do do
02:15:13 Islington with Saraki as a couple. Do do you remember that? I wasn't with Saraki as a couple. That's when I met Saraki with his second partner,
02:15:18 partner, Donna.
02:15:19 Donna. Right. We'll come back to that then. Okay. But yeah, I mean it was it was it was social events in pubs, in people's houses. Um uh sometimes I just wanted to see him
02:15:30 uh sometimes I just wanted to see him for sex basically. Um and we would just then meet up just the two of us. Um and the main activity was sexual during
02:15:41 the main activity was sexual during those meetings. um you know it was the whole range of things that you do when you're with a partner in amongst a group of friends and when you were together did you go out for dinner um do activities what
02:15:53 out for dinner um do activities what kind of things did you do I I think so I mean I I have to admit that lots of it is quite hazy and and so I don't have specific memories of of things that we did unless it was
02:16:04 things that we did unless it was attached to a more sort of dramatic event. So, the the only reason I remember the party where he accused somebody of being a an informer or a police spy or whatever, um I only
02:16:15 police spy or whatever, um I only remember that because of the discomfort I felt at his behavior. I probably wouldn't have remembered that event otherwise. Um I I remember lots of being in in people's flats and uh and in
02:16:28 being in in people's flats and uh and in pubs with people and you know, and if you went out for dinner or for pubs, do you recall who paid for dinner and drinks? Was it him or you or a mixture?
02:16:36 mixture? Generally, it was it was sort of 50/50 because um I was never the type of person who expected to be paid for. Um moving [clears throat] to the time
02:16:47 Um moving [clears throat] to the time you spent at each other's um accommodation. He he's as I've said before, he stayed um he recalls you staying once and then later says rare occasions at his flat.
02:16:58 later says rare occasions at his flat. And then I think it um we don't need to get it up at MPS0726495 which is B7 of the bundle which is his operation hern interview he says I never took anyone back to my um duff flat. So
02:17:11 took anyone back to my um duff flat. So we have some different um things that he said but first of all is correct that you never lived with uh Carlos Raki. That's correct. Yeah. Um and do you recall approximately how often you stayed at his hackne flat and
02:17:23 often you stayed at his hackne flat and um how often he would come to yours? Um I didn't stay at his hackne flat very often because as I say it was grim actually. I found it quite a depressing
02:17:34 actually. I found it quite a depressing place to be. Um but I had keys for his flat. So
02:17:39 flat. So I'll come back to that point in a moment.
02:17:41 moment. Um he would more often than not come to my place um in South London um and then we would go to our respective workplaces from there in the morning. Um, so
02:17:53 from there in the morning. Um, so certainly you would did you stay at his flat more than once? Oh yeah. Yeah. Um,
02:18:02 looking at the keys point at paragraph 4.16, you say, "Soon after our relationship began, he provided me with a set of keys to this flat, although I do not recall how he presented them to me or when." Um, do you recall if he
02:18:15 me or when." Um, do you recall if he gave you his keys when you still considered the relationship to be casual or uh, so in the first sort of few months or was it later on? Do you remember?
02:18:23 remember? Um, I don't remember the exact chronology, but I imagine that was one of the things that to me deepened the relationship. Um, I'll get to that point. Uh, do you
02:18:34 Um, I'll get to that point. Uh, do you recall if you had asked for the set of keys or it was his idea? I think it was his idea cuz that's not me to say, give me a set of keys to your flat. You know, it's not what I would
02:18:47 flat. You know, it's not what I would have done. So, I'm presuming he's offering this as a sort of open loving gesture that I'm more of a part of his life than I had been. And you anticipate my next question. So,
02:18:59 And you anticipate my next question. So, do you recall what he said to you? Did he say anything to you? I don't know. In terms of your understanding of that gesture, what was that? Um, well, there's a seriousness in in in
02:19:12 Um, well, there's a seriousness in in in uh somebody giving you keys to their accommodation. um you know it's it's more than a casual thing at that point you know you can you can go anytime you can that's an
02:19:23 can go anytime you can that's an invitation to go and be there and and even potentially let yourself in to the place you know so um yeah I thought that I imagine that was quite if somebody did
02:19:35 I imagine that was quite if somebody did that now I would see it as a fairly significant gesture and at the time with Saraki do you think that's how you thought of it I I really don't know but I imagine yeah I
02:19:46 I you know, it's not a casual thing. Someone giving you keys to their dwelling, you know, it wasn't sort of here's my keys in case I'm not there and I, you know, you need to let somebody in. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, you know, it was Yeah. To me, it was it was a I guess it
02:19:59 Yeah. To me, it was it was a I guess it I would interpret that as a a deepening of of uh trust, affection, and I'll ask you [clears throat] in a moment about a specific time when you
02:20:10 moment about a specific time when you used his keys when in the time when he disappeared, but in general terms, did you use those keys often? Not that I recall. Um, so you would, if you did go to Slats, you generally be there.
02:20:22 Slats, you generally be there. Yeah, I I'd be going with him. I didn't go without him. And I might have let us in because I got the keys or he might have let us in. I don't remember. And from your recollection, did um I
02:20:34 And from your recollection, did um I think you say paragraph 5.3 of your your statement, you didn't give him a set of keys to your flat. I don't think I did. No. And again, I realize it's a long time ago, but do you recall if there was any reason why you didn't give him your keys
02:20:46 reason why you didn't give him your keys when he gave him his? I can only think that it was because I had a very expensive set of keys. So, I had like a key fob. Um, it was like a
02:20:57 had like a key fob. Um, it was like a 1960s council block that I lived in. And so there was a key fob and several keys that were really expensive to reproduce. So I don't even remember having a spare
02:21:08 So I don't even remember having a spare set of keys for that flat. It might have just been as practical as that because I I I was I I loved and trusted him enough to have given him a set of keys. it it wasn't a
02:21:19 wasn't a a lack of trust or you know um I imagine it just purely was a practical reason. Um I'd ask to [clears throat] ask you a few questions about your sexual relationship um with Carlos Raki. He
02:21:32 relationship um with Carlos Raki. He states, we don't need to get it up, but he states in his statement about your sexual relationship, page 90, paragraph 179.1, he says, "This led to a one night stand, which then developed into a
02:21:43 stand, which then developed into a casual relationship where we slept together on a number of occasions. How often did you have sex throughout your relationship?" Um, so at the beginning it was more sort
02:21:54 Um, so at the beginning it was more sort of casual, sort of ad hoc meetings. Uh, at least once a week at the beginning. Um,
02:22:04 I I I have a hazy recollection. I'm afraid I I would be I guess I would be kind of
02:22:11 kind of I don't know. I might be incorrect. But every time we met up, we had sex. And that was often uh especially towards the end of the relationship, that was often what was my main motivation for meeting
02:22:24 what was my main motivation for meeting them. Um I had plenty of friends and you know it wasn't on a friendship basis that I I was seeking out his company. Talking about um contraception at page
02:22:37 Talking about um contraception at page 91 of his statement paragraph 179.4 he says with Lindsay I always used a contractive assume assuming he means contraceptive. [snorts] It sounds painful a contractive.
02:22:48 It sounds painful a contractive. Um paragraph 9.6 six of your statement. You say Saraki claims that he always used contraception, but this is false. He didn't and never offered to. I took
02:23:00 He didn't and never offered to. I took care of that important detail and I do not remember Saraki [snorts] ever mentioning contraception to me. At the time, I was following the natural contraception method as I had an allergy to latex. I'd therefore be interested to
02:23:12 to latex. I'd therefore be interested to know what contraception Saraki believes he was using. Uh, so you say you were not using a contraceptives as you had a latex allergy. I appreciate this seems like
02:23:23 allergy. I appreciate this seems like such an obvious question, but to spell it out, does that mean that you did not use condoms? Yes.
02:23:28 Yes. And um, did you do you recall whether you told him about your latex allergy at the time?
02:23:33 the time? I will have done. Yeah. Um, [clears throat] you say that you were using the natural contraception method. Can you explain what you mean by that?
02:23:42 that? Yeah. So it's um uh so what you do if you have a regular regular menstrual cycle sorry too much information um is
02:23:54 cycle sorry too much information um is you track daily temperature um fluctuations in in other things to do with your body. Um, and then you can fairly precisely pinpoint when you are
02:24:07 fairly precisely pinpoint when you are most fertile and so you avoid penetrative sexual contact at that point um so as not to to risk pregnancy. Uh, and did you [clears throat] consider
02:24:19 Uh, and did you [clears throat] consider the possibility of pregnancy or contracting an STD using that method? No.
02:24:24 No. No.
02:24:24 No. Um,
02:24:27 Um, and just to be clear, did you ever use any other type of contraceptive? Um, not that I can recall. I'm not totally ruling out potentially using condoms
02:24:38 condoms once or twice at near the beginning, but I I'm fairly sure that that was the method. I mean, I' I'd been using that method for years. So, um, yeah.
02:24:49 method for years. So, um, yeah. Do you ever recall having a discussion with Thraki about contraception? I don't.
02:24:56 I don't. And am I right to understand from your uh uh statement that you you were the only one who was responsible for contraception from from your [snorts] recollection? From my recollection, he didn't seem
02:25:08 From my recollection, he didn't seem overly interested in the discussion. He was very happy to have sex without barrier uh contraception. Um he never raised an objection to that.
02:25:21 Um he never raised an objection to that. Um, moving [clears throat] on to the characterization of your relationship. At paragraph 4.47 of your statement, you say, um, I do not recall that Saraki and
02:25:32 say, um, I do not recall that Saraki and I ever specifically discussed our future together, like moving in with each other or getting married. The relationship begun casually, but developed into one which I believe true and deep feelings had developed. We said, "I love you
02:25:44 had developed. We said, "I love you often." And I believed his loving gestures uh were meaningful. Can you describe um please how you would characterize your relationship with Saraki at the time? Just elaborate on
02:25:56 Saraki at the time? Just elaborate on that.
02:25:57 that. Um he was a physically demonstrative person. So um he we were very physically close. We were very tactile with each
02:26:08 close. We were very tactile with each other.
02:26:09 other. Um,
02:26:12 Um, I don't really remember him uh
02:26:17 really like making great emotional kind of declarations or anything like that apart from, you know, a couple of obvious um things which I'm sure you'll come to. Um,
02:26:30 come to. Um, but yeah, I mean, I I I felt like he was open. Um,
02:26:38 open. Um, he was gentle. He was, you know, I trusted him. Um, and I I've never been one to really show a lot of physical
02:26:49 a lot of physical uh attention to somebody in in a a social environment. Um, but I I did feel physically very close to him. And how did you um feel that he treated
02:27:02 And how did you um feel that he treated you during your relationship? for the most part really really well. And um as I say, you know, my abiding memory of him, despite the really sad end to the
02:27:13 despite the really sad end to the relationship, you know, my my abide and memory of him was as someone who was uh very gentle, very warm, um like [clears throat]
02:27:24 [clears throat] really
02:27:26 really demonstrative with with his uh I mean he told me he loved me all the time. Um and and yeah, not not afraid to be sort
02:27:37 and and yeah, not not afraid to be sort of like emotionally vulnerable in that way. Um
02:27:43 way. Um in terms of saying I love you, do you recall who said it first? Who did?
02:27:47 Who did? And um I think at paragraph 4.65 of your statement, you said you were slightly taken aback because it felt too soon. Does does that accord with your memory in terms of the timing of when you said
02:27:58 in terms of the timing of when you said that?
02:27:58 that? It does.
02:28:00 It does. How do you feel now about the fact that he told you he loved you so quickly? Um,
02:28:07 Um, I mean, it was I don't think that makes a great deal of difference to uh him um agreeing to, you
02:28:18 difference to uh him um agreeing to, you know, like instigating a sexual relationship with me. you know, it it I guess in the scheme of things that is such an horrendous thing for a police officer to do to a member of the public
02:28:30 officer to do to a member of the public that I'm not sure it's any worse that he he um kind of emotionally drew me in as well. Um, but yeah, I can't help but feel like that was a really outrageous
02:28:44 feel like that was a really outrageous thing to do was to because I I had my barriers up after the end of that very sad relationship before Saraki. And so I I see it as a cruel thing to do to
02:28:56 I see it as a cruel thing to do to actually work to bring me barriers down. So much so that I really trusted them and I invested emotionally in that relationship as well as physically. and
02:29:07 relationship as well as physically. and then just to withdraw that um you know I just see that as a really cold
02:29:15 cold calculated thing to do. At paragraph 4.46 of your statement you say during your relationships would often uh was often very generous and would make really beautiful heartfelt
02:29:27 would make really beautiful heartfelt and thoughtful gestures. I think you refer to buying you a CL an SLR camera at one point. Is that right? Yeah. and you've exhibited a number of cards he gave to you that I just like to
02:29:39 cards he gave to you that I just like to bring up. The first one is UCPI 38228 at tab A18 page two please.
02:29:52 [snorts] Uh so um this appears to be a birthday card. Um, [clears throat and cough] he says that you see right at the bottom, PS, your prey awaits you in
02:30:05 bottom, PS, your prey awaits you in London. Do you recall what he got you? [clears throat] Do I recall what what gift he got for you? This must have been your birthday in 2001. It was. Yeah. Yeah.
02:30:15 Yeah. Uh, I think at that point it was um books and uh like other small gifts. I think like that at the point of me
02:30:27 think like that at the point of me birthday. Um yeah, I think I think that's what it was. You see here um Sraki refers to you as mate in this card. Is that something
02:30:39 as mate in this card. Is that something he did often? Um
02:30:43 Um he referred to lots of people as mate. No, not really. It's uh it doesn't signify like a sort of emotional distance. He's he's still telling me he loves me at this point. So I think
02:30:55 loves me at this point. So I think that's what I wanted to explore. So at the time you didn't think read anything into the fact he's referring to you as mate as to how he may feel towards you. No no it's a it's a jokey thing cuz he said you know he says loads of love kisses and the other stuff which means
02:31:07 kisses and the other stuff which means sex you know and he he is telling me he loves me at this is this is the time this is the birthday where he had traveled to Liverpool. Yes.
02:31:18 Yes. Um do you want me to go into that or we'll come to because I just want to go through all all the cards that he sent to you. I get. Yeah. And so in terms of the sign of loads of love, kisses and the other stuff again, is this um indicative the kinds of
02:31:30 is this um indicative the kinds of affectionate things he would say to you during your relationship? Um
02:31:36 yeah. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it's a it's a bit sort of jokey, you know. This is this isn't I wouldn't say this was usual. Um it I mean the
02:31:48 say this was usual. Um it I mean the front of the card is is jokey, you know. So yeah, it's it's just a different slightly different tone. Not not a tone I was put off by at the time at all. Um, if we go to the next card, is it
02:32:00 Um, if we go to the next card, is it UCPI 38229 page two
02:32:07 38229
02:32:12 uh tab A19 of the bundle. There we go. Page two, please. So you can see this [snorts] is a car dated in December 2001.
02:32:22 2001. And do you call if you received this before or after you went to on your trip to Venice, which I will come to in a moment?
02:32:29 moment? Um, I think it would have been after. I'm not entirely sure though. And again referring to [clears throat] him calling you Darlin. Is that something he called you often? A sign of affection
02:32:40 affection or something? I don't think so. No, I think this is just him, right? You know, I think this is a written Sure.
02:32:48 Sure. You know, he he didn't call me darling. No.
02:32:51 No. And um do you recall what that present was?
02:32:54 was? Um yeah, that was uh something slightly embarrassing which people laugh at me about. Um a a set of uh hand drums I think was was attached to this. Um so
02:33:08 think was was attached to this. Um so yeah, I used to call them what they are, which is bongos. Now I'm going go bongos. Um, but yeah, I think I I talked for quite a long time about um enjoying drumming,
02:33:21 long time about um enjoying drumming, wanting to drum more, something I'd done a little bit of in the past. And so he actually had listened to that, taken that in, and gone and bought this beautiful little set of expensive hand
02:33:33 beautiful little set of expensive hand drums. Um, so I think that was attached to that. I'm going to take you to the next card which is 38230. And you'll see here it might be this one
02:33:44 And you'll see here it might be this one that's the drums. Is that right? Because you've spoken about one of these for so long. I hope this fits the bill. Yeah, I think that's the Is that the So, do you recall what the other present was? No worries if you got
02:33:55 other present was? No worries if you got No. No.
02:33:58 No. No. Um, [clears throat] thank you. That can come down. At the time, how did these cards and gifts make you feel towards them? Um I I mean it's the thoughtfulness the the care he taken to
02:34:10 thoughtfulness the the care he taken to select gifts. Um and they were also expensive gifts you know not we even though you know I was working and other people around us were working you know
02:34:22 people around us were working you know generally expensive gifts like that uh were a little bit beyond people's reach. So the fact he was spending a fair bit of money and really thinking about what
02:34:33 of money and really thinking about what to gift me um it meant, you know, it meant a lot. It made me feel quite loved. And [clears throat] with the knowledge
02:34:45 And [clears throat] with the knowledge you have now of his uh real identity, what's your reaction to him buying you these gifts and sending you these cards with these words of affection at the time?
02:34:54 time? Uh,
02:34:57 Uh, well, I just wonder where the money came from for these. Uh, I just wonder if the Metropolitan Police had been um funding uh these romantic gestures. Um,
02:35:10 uh these romantic gestures. Um, I still have these items, you know, I haven't got rid of these items and, you know, I I still sort of enjoy having them as much as I ever did. Um, I don't
02:35:21 them as much as I ever did. Um, I don't have any particular feeling around these gifts. You know, the feeling is towards him and and um really what he shouldn't have been doing. It this doesn't make me think the relationship was any more
02:35:33 think the relationship was any more genuine, making, you know, I I think they were probably used to uh to draw me in even further and to make me feel even more connected to him. I think there was
02:35:44 more connected to him. I think there was a cynical purpose behind, you know, being so thoughtful. Do you recall feeling more connected to him at the time?
02:35:52 the time? Oh, at at December 2001, I I mean I because of those gifts. I was disgustingly in love with them. You know what I mean? I it it was Yeah. Not because of the gifts. Part of part of
02:36:04 Part of part of it was it it definitely made me think there was care and thought and uh that's that's emotional closeness. Saraki has described his relationship
02:36:15 Saraki has described his relationship with you in his evidence as casual and at page 92 paragraph 180 of his statement as a fling. What is [clears throat] your reaction to that? It started it certainly started that
02:36:26 It started it certainly started that way. Um
02:36:29 way. Um but I was emotionally really quite devastated by the end of the of our relationship. And uh so I I did feel like I loved him. I did feel
02:36:42 did feel like I loved him. I did feel like he loved me at some point although that became shaky later on. Um and [clears throat] oh sorry repeat your question. Sorry.
02:36:53 oh sorry repeat your question. Sorry. Um
02:36:56 Um it simply you let me assist you. Um he he describes your relation as casual and a slaying throughout. And if it assists you at paragraph 4.65 your statement you describe being very angry that he's
02:37:07 describe being very angry that he's described it in that way. Yeah. Yeah. because he he he obviously felt he he wasn't at all alive to how I was feeling emotionally and how his uh
02:37:21 was feeling emotionally and how his uh pretty abrupt emotional withdrawal from me made me feel. I mean I I left this entire social circle of people leaving me feeling quite isolated in
02:37:35 me feeling quite isolated in you know the city I wasn't from you know um because of the end of that relationship if I if I'd have just gone oh well that's just an end to another relationship and just casually accepted
02:37:46 relationship and just casually accepted it I would not have been so hurt to have been in his company that I withdrew myself completely and and you know I I I was I was really quite emotionally
02:37:57 was I was really quite emotionally affected by the ends of the relationship. Sorry, I find this the hardest bit to talk about. So, I'm not I'm not being very eloquent here because I I do actually find this really hard to talk about. I'll I'll I'll sidetrack slightly
02:38:08 I'll I'll I'll sidetrack slightly because we will come back to the end of your relationship. Yeah. So, considering what you know now that Saraki had a wife and a son who he was seeing whilst he was in a sexual relationship with you, how how do you feel about that? That is
02:38:20 how how do you feel about that? That is the
02:38:22 the typ typification of misogyny. To treat her like that, to treat her his family like that, to treat me like that, um to treat the women he had relationship
02:38:35 treat the women he had relationship relationships with after me like that without a thought, without any care. Um, I mean that that dis absolutely disgusts me and and that to me that that should
02:38:49 me and and that to me that that should be a criminal offense to treat members of the public like that. I mean to treat his own wife like that that's bad, you know, that is really bad enough. And I have huge sympathy for what she must
02:39:00 have huge sympathy for what she must have gone through and her family must have gone through as a result of of all of all of this that's happened. and to realize, you know, what he was doing when he was supposedly at work. Well, he
02:39:11 when he was supposedly at work. Well, he was at work. Um, so yeah, I mean, it it's absolutely stinks of sexism and misogyny and abuse.
02:39:22 stinks of sexism and misogyny and abuse. Um, I want to move to what Saraki told you about his life and his family. Just first of all, um, without mentioning any any names, um, he informed you that he was a locksmith. Is that right?
02:39:33 was a locksmith. Is that right? Yes. And at paragraph 4.18 of you, you're saying you state that he would occasionally change door locks for people during his deployment. Is this something you were aware of at the time? Um, [clears throat]
02:39:44 Um, [clears throat] I'm not sure if I was aware of it at the time or later. So, it um
02:39:50 So, it um something you may have been told by other people. Possibly. Poss. Do you know how many friends he changed locks for? Um, I don't I don't. I know we I think
02:40:01 Um, I don't I don't. I know we I think he changed car locks and and door locks as well.
02:40:05 as well. This is all information that you've been later. Yeah. Yeah. Looking at his family at paragraph 4.19 of his of your statement, [clears throat] you say that he claimed his family came from Bolognia, Italy,
02:40:16 his family came from Bolognia, Italy, and told me that he had lived there during his teenage years. He tells you about his mother, his father, his sister, and his uncle, including telling you their names, which we're not going to um refer to. Is that right?
02:40:29 to um refer to. Is that right? Yes. And did he tell you much detail about his parents or his uncle? Um, I don't remember a lot of detail unfortunately about what he told me, but he showed me photographs.
02:40:40 he showed me photographs. Looking at those photographs, we'll come back to the photograph of his son in a moment. But you say he showed you photographs of his family members. Do you recall which family members? Without without names, which family members?
02:40:52 without names, which family members? Um, the one I really recall is his uncle.
02:40:55 uncle. Yeah. Um,
02:40:58 Yeah. Um, I don't I I can't recall seeing photographs of his sister or his dad, possibly his mom, but I I I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not going to say for certain,
02:41:09 Yeah, I'm not going to say for certain, but definitely his uncle. And the photos of his uncle and his son that you recall, did he have them up in his flat?
02:41:16 his flat? No.
02:41:18 No. [clears throat and cough] And it's right, isn't it, that you never met any of his family members? That's right. That's right. at the time. Did you find that strange or um Well, I you know I I didn't want to
02:41:29 um Well, I you know I I didn't want to push me way into his life. you know, I was quite
02:41:35 was quite content for him to open up to me, not me, push him to, you know, reveal things to me or, you know, I I mean, I was
02:41:46 to me or, you know, I I mean, I was living far away from my own family who I saw fairly seldom at that point, you know, so I didn't see it as anything particularly unusual. And I don't think I felt like he was like pushing me out
02:41:59 I felt like he was like pushing me out by not introducing me to family members. Um
02:42:05 Um yeah, I I I don't remember it hurting at all that he wasn't bringing me into that part of his life. So paragraph 4.20 you explain um how he told you about his
02:42:16 you explain um how he told you about his sister whom was the only member of um his family he said lived in the country. Yeah. Um uh you say he described her as living in the home counties, was reportedly unhappily married and struggling with depression. Um
02:42:31 struggling with depression. Um do you recall any other details that he told you about his sister at the time? Her name
02:42:39 Her name Y. Uh,
02:42:41 Y. Uh, but it was mainly around and I'm I'm guessing it was to keep me from being interested in meeting her as the supposedly the only member of his family that was in the country apart
02:42:52 family that was in the country apart from his son. Um so he you know that it was the he there was emphasis on a really unhappy marriage that led to great depression on
02:43:04 marriage that led to great depression on you know and and that's why she was never ready to meet people. I understand that you um saw Don's evidence yesterday. I did. Um and do you recall her telling
02:43:15 I did. Um and do you recall her telling um the chair what Saraki told her about his sister? Are you living in Peterbr married with two children? Does that ring any bell with you?
02:43:25 with you? Married? Yeah, I can't remember about the children but that was the source apparently of her depression was that a very unsuitable unhappy marriage about Peterbr? Think you say you say the
02:43:37 about Peterbr? Think you say you say the home counties? Um I can't say for certain Peterbr. Did he ever tell you that his sister had been physically or sexually abused? Absolutely not. Now,
02:43:49 Absolutely not. Now, um,
02:43:51 um, did this story of his sister being depressed
02:43:57 depressed and them not having a close relationship make you feel empathy towards his sister and towards him? I I I was empathetic towards his sister obviously, you know, as you would be for
02:44:10 obviously, you know, as you would be for someone you care about to say that someone very close to them was really struggling emotionally. That is Yeah, I mean obviously empathy immediately goes out. Um
02:44:25 yeah, I guess it was a tactic obviously to
02:44:29 to So she said you say I now believe he used this to explain why he saw her rarely and why I was never able um to meet her. And you say you made no effort to try and meet her as I did not want to
02:44:40 to try and meet her as I did not want to intrude uninvited onto family life especially as he had indicated he did not see her sister much. Did he ever suggest that you could or would meet his sister? Not that I remember.
02:44:52 sister? Not that I remember. Um,
02:44:54 Um, did he recall him ever going to see her without you? He will have said he was seeing his sister and I'm sure. Not often though. I I got the feeling it was a really it was
02:45:07 I got the feeling it was a really it was quite a there was emotional closeness at some level, but I got the feeling it was quite a difficult relationship and he found it difficult to conduct that relationship with his sister because of her emotional state. So I think I think
02:45:19 her emotional state. So I think I think I I I was under the impression that he did see her occasionally, but it was just occasional. And that was even, you know, that sort of made me want to intrude on that part of his life even
02:45:30 intrude on that part of his life even less. And um do you recall him ever speaking on his to his sister on the phone?
02:45:36 phone? Um no, I don't think I do. um looking at his son and what he um told you about him.
02:45:47 told you about him. Um
02:45:49 Um Saraki says in his statement, page 95, paragraph 193, it was part of my legend that I has a son by a previous failed relationship. And you describe paragraph 4.25 to five of your statement that he'd
02:46:01 4.25 to five of your statement that he'd shown you a photograph of a young boy who he referred to as privacy and claimed this was his son from a previous relationship. Do you do you recall if he had that photograph up in his flat? I
02:46:12 had that photograph up in his flat? I don't think he did. I remember him having like photographs in a small album somewhere, but I I can't tell you any more than that. But no, I mean the flat
02:46:23 more than that. But no, I mean the flat was literally there was nothing personal about it. The most personal thing was a bike on on like a train and rack. It was it was that devoid of personality.
02:46:36 it was that devoid of personality. And at paragraph 4.26 of the statement, you you say he told me that the relationship with his former partner had ended badly and he had consequently lost touch with his son. Do you remember any
02:46:47 touch with his son. Do you remember any other detail about what he told you about his son, his son's mother, and their relationship? Um, I think he said
02:46:59 that there was they they were at some geographical distance. Um,
02:47:07 I don't think he gave me more. I can't remember if he gave me more detail. I'm sure he must have during that conversation given me more detail, but it hasn't stayed in my memory. Did
02:47:19 but it hasn't stayed in my memory. Did do you recall if he explained how he'd lost touch with his son? I think Oh, sorry. I know. I see what you're driving out there now. Um, he he had a quite a volatile relationship. So,
02:47:32 had a quite a volatile relationship. So, he it seemed with his exartner. And this is something you recall him telling you at the time. Yeah. Yeah. as an explanation for why he hadn't kept in touch with his son because, you know, he he was quite
02:47:43 because, you know, he he was quite obviously trying to, you know, instill empathy in me at at this point. Um, but not so much so that he paints himself in a bad light. You
02:47:54 he paints himself in a bad light. You know, it wasn't his fault, it was his ex's fault for being a cow. You know what I mean? So, um, yeah, that's how I see it now. He was, you know, he he wasn't to blame. she was to blame for
02:48:07 wasn't to blame. she was to blame for the lack of his con for of the lack of contact with his son. And you explain at paragraph 4.26 of your saying that Saraki had appeared emotional and embarrassed about this aspect of his past and I was sworn to
02:48:19 aspect of his past and I was sworn to secrecy over the information and I kept this secret throughout our time together at the time. How did this story and Sraki's emotional reaction to it make you feel towards him? I
02:48:31 you feel towards him? I I mean my heart went out to him, you know. I mean to to lose contact with your child Lots of people lose contact with the children and they don't feel particularly emotional about it perhaps or they don't display that
02:48:43 perhaps or they don't display that emotion. You know, they might sublimate it, but they certainly don't display it. He did and it was like with with regret that he had lost apparently lost contact
02:48:54 that he had lost apparently lost contact with his son. Um so I I felt for him. I felt for his son. I felt for his exartner who was raising this child alone.
02:49:05 alone. Um, [snorts] so yeah, it was it was like a in hindsight a a classic technique to kind of get me to feel sorry for him and
02:49:16 kind of get me to feel sorry for him and to, you know, extend empathy towards him.
02:49:20 him. And and at the time, how did the fact that he'd entrusted you with this secret make you feel towards him? Um well I guess it drew us emotionally closer
02:49:31 closer to some respect but I didn't want I didn't want to keep the information from me for you know it's like yeah I felt a bit bad for not telling the people who also knew him but then I
02:49:43 the people who also knew him but then I wouldn't you know he asked me not to I I also get the feeling that later on he did tell people you you do explain that I just wanted to get how you felt about um being
02:49:54 get how you felt about um being entrusted with a secret and And I think as you've described, you felt closer to him because it's a double-edged thing. You know, I felt closer to him. I felt great empathy for him, for him and his son and his exartner, you know, although I probably
02:50:06 exartner, you know, although I probably didn't empathize or sympathize with her position in front of him. Um, but yeah, I I didn't I didn't want to keep secrets from me, mates. We just weren't that type of people.
02:50:17 type of people. And then you go on to explain in your statement, paragraph 4.27, 27 that he then started to appear to open up and speak to others in his target group about his son. And at paragraph 4.28
02:50:29 And at paragraph 4.28 um you say that Saraki had also asked you if and you say if I thought he should attempt to reconnect with his son and I told him unequivocally that he had a responsibility towards this child and
02:50:41 a responsibility towards this child and should reestablish contact with him as soon as possible. Do you recall at what stage in your relationship he asked you this advice? Um, I seem to recall it was fairly early on in our relationship. So, if again,
02:50:55 on in our relationship. So, if again, I mean, I'm looking at all this in hindsight, you know, can't say things for certain, but again, that that feels like a bit of an emotional step to have taken to ent and trust me with that information because of his the emotional
02:51:08 information because of his the emotional obviously emotional nature of it or you know, he acted like it, you know, it had an emotional impact on him obviously. Um,
02:51:19 Um, yeah. I don't know what else to say on that.
02:51:21 that. And at the time, how did the fact that he was asking you this advice make you feel towards him? Um, I guess, you know, flattered in in a
02:51:33 I guess, you know, flattered in in a quite a strange way that he should ask my advice on this, that he should feel like I was trusted and important enough in his life to to give me that information, to ask me advice and for
02:51:44 information, to ask me advice and for him to apparently listen to me advice. So yeah, I mean it adds it had a fairly big impact and that's what makes it even more cynical that he then goes on to to
02:51:56 more cynical that he then goes on to to use the same tactic with Donna. At paragraph 4.2 and 4.26, you eventually discover that the photographs and names Saraki had given to you of his
02:52:07 and names Saraki had given to you of his family were real. And what is your reaction to that now in particular knowing what he told you about his son and sister was untrue? Um,
02:52:20 so I mean what immediately struck me was he uh tried to um maintain anonymity
02:52:32 maintain anonymity uh from the inquiry because um he was scared of us left-wing extremists with a propensity for violence, you know, and apparently his, you know, his family
02:52:43 apparently his, you know, his family were also scared of us. So um that just
02:52:50 that just that illustrates what a huge lie that is even to yourselves even to people who he now should be coming clean to you know uh if he had any moral compass
02:53:02 uh if he had any moral compass whatsoever. Um, so yeah, I mean the fact that he uh was so unthreatened by us as to tell show us real photographs, tell real
02:53:14 show us real photographs, tell real names. Um, I mean, it's just it's it's almost a joke, you know. I mean, I'm really angry, you know, on one level, but also,
02:53:25 angry, you know, on one level, but also, you know, it's kind of like you pathetic creature, [laughter] you know. It's it's just outrageous that he should then claim in this forum to yourselves that he's so scared of us
02:53:37 yourselves that he's so scared of us that he needs his name, you know, kept out of the public domain. And paragraph 4.26, you on you go on to say, on reflection, I feel Saraki's
02:53:48 say, on reflection, I feel Saraki's decision to feed information about his family life to me in this way is reminiscent of and and you you go on to explain, but um weaponizing empathy is the expression you've used. Yeah. Um, with hindsight, do you
02:54:00 Yeah. Um, with hindsight, do you consider that this is what Saraki did to you?
02:54:02 you? Absolutely. And what's your reaction to that? Well, I'd never heard of that term before until I listened to a a podcast done by BBC journalist and um Neil Woods act undercover himself, but in crime,
02:54:13 act undercover himself, but in crime, something important rather than, you know, totally manufactured like the SDS and NIU.
02:54:19 and NIU. um
02:54:21 um he he had used weaponizing empathy and it immediately struck a chord with me because that's what Saraki did on several occasions was manipulate myself
02:54:33 several occasions was manipulate myself and other people emotionally um for his to to to further his legend. Um, and you say in paragraph 430 that he did a similar thing with his friends,
02:54:45 did a similar thing with his friends, his football friends who he described with friends from work. And you say you didn't push him on meeting them accepting had reasons to compartmentalize his life. So why do you think you accepted he had those reasons
02:54:58 think you accepted he had those reasons to compartmentalize his life? Um, well that's something I do myself. you know, I I I have I I I'm I'm a fairly open book to be honest, but you
02:55:09 fairly open book to be honest, but you know, I don't immediately meet somebody and then immediately take them to meet me family and then immediately, you know, I I don't I guess that is in me personality to um to deccompartmentalize
02:55:25 personality to um to deccompartmentalize slightly um despite me open sort of nature. So yeah, I I I mean I I just didn't want to intrude where I wasn't invited, you know? I didn't feel I had the right to intrude where I wasn't
02:55:37 the right to intrude where I wasn't invited. I I totally thought that at some point I would be invited in because this was becoming a a deeper relationship. So I just assumed that at some point that would happen and I
02:55:49 some point that would happen and I didn't feel sore about it at all really. Looking at your family, there was an occasion when he did meet them in, as you've explained before, at a birthday, your surprise birthday party
02:56:01 a birthday, your surprise birthday party in Liverpool, which was September 2001. Yeah.
02:56:05 Yeah. Um, what he says, we don't need to get it up, but at page 91 of his statement, paragraph 179.6, he says, "I did not infiltrate the family life of the persons with whom I had a relationship."
02:56:17 persons with whom I had a relationship." Uh, he goes on to say, "I did meet Lindsay's family when I traveled up to Liverpool once to surprise her for a birthday party. I slept over at one of her friends houses the night of the party together with Alfred in privacy
02:56:28 party together with Alfred in privacy and traveled back the following day. I think I met her mother and brother at the party, but I did not have anything other than passing conversations with either." Does that accord with your recollection of that event?
02:56:41 recollection of that event? It does. Yeah. But you see with me as well, me friends are me family, me close friends are me family. So technically that isn't correct what he said there.
02:56:52 that isn't correct what he said there. And I think you've already described that that was sort of the turning point for you in terms of the seriousness of your relation. It was it was Yeah. Yeah. I mean such an effort he made to be there. And um it's right that he then stayed at
02:57:03 And um it's right that he then stayed at a good friend of you both in fact stayed at a good friend of yours house that night and in fact she gave up her bed for the two of you to share together. She did.
02:57:11 She did. And in terms um when you say that your friends are your family, would you include her in that? Oh, definitely. She's one of my oldest friends.
02:57:19 friends. And what was Saraki's relationship with her?
02:57:23 her? Um so when we first met at the um the Samuel Peeps, she was there and it was
02:57:34 Samuel Peeps, she was there and it was her who kind of encouraged me in a way to pursue this relationship. She liked him. She she had a really positive instant instantly positive reaction to him. I'm not putting any blame on her,
02:57:46 him. I'm not putting any blame on her, by the way, because there's a lot of guilt in friendship circles around people introducing you to to these undercover officers. I do I do not carry any of that and neither should anybody
02:57:57 any of that and neither should anybody else. Um, but she she did encourage me. Um, as I say, I wasn't physically attracted to him initially. I was attracted to his warmth and his humor,
02:58:08 attracted to his warmth and his humor, but um you know it her opinion mattered to me really and so you know it was her who kind of encouraged us to become closer. later on
02:58:19 encouraged us to become closer. later on she would visit in London. So he didn't come to Liverpool again um while we were together
02:58:26 together but she would uh come to London and they struck up a friendship and she considered and obviously until this revelation of who he actually was him to
02:58:38 revelation of who he actually was him to of have reached friendship status with her you know she really liked him. Um, and just looking at your [clears throat] family, as I understand it, he he didn't meet your family members ever again. No, he didn't. Yeah, they weren't very
02:58:49 No, he didn't. Yeah, they weren't very impressed with them to be quite with um hindsight, how do you feel about the fact that Saraki met your old friends, became friends with them, and met your brother and parents? How do you
02:59:00 met your brother and parents? How do you feel about that? Uh, well, collateral intrusion, I'm sure he'd describe it. It it's that's a very cold um definition. I mean I it's
02:59:11 cold um definition. I mean I it's it does have an impact on it it's a very strange psychological impact when you discover that this has happened in your life and even if uh you are peripheral I
02:59:23 life and even if uh you are peripheral I think to to these infiltrations it has an impact um it's so much so that people I think find it difficult to even hear
02:59:35 I think find it difficult to even hear so as part of police spies out lives I do speak at trade union events and other events and people find it really difficult to hear this because I guess people don't really want to believe that
02:59:46 people don't really want to believe that the state your your government this supposedly protective police force would uh stoop to those levels. So on many
02:59:57 uh stoop to those levels. So on many many levels it has an impact and um and someone like my friend in Liverpool who considered herself a friend and other friends who who were his direct targets
03:00:10 friends who who were his direct targets are all similarly impacted and and you know you're you're not like prepared emotionally for this. you know, however much as a socialist and having some
03:00:22 much as a socialist and having some knowledge of what the state can do to political activists and people who threaten uh you know the power relationships that exist. Um even with
03:00:35 relationships that exist. Um even with that knowledge, it's it's quite unusual to actually be caught up in it and very difficult to manage. So yeah, I I have your family been impacted by them
03:00:47 have your family been impacted by them meeting him on that occasion. Um impacted in the sense that they love me and care about me and they have seen uh the reaction that I've had to
03:01:01 uh the reaction that I've had to being abused like that. Um, and also because at the time of our breakup, I mean, I I did consider the relationship
03:01:14 mean, I I did consider the relationship with him as one of the most important. I mean, this is going to sound ridiculous, you know, but it was one of the most emotion it was one of of a handful of really
03:01:25 was one of of a handful of really emotionally close physical relationships that I had I've had in me life. So, um, yeah, the my reaction to it at the time,
03:01:37 yeah, the my reaction to it at the time, I was devastated and I I was feeling pretty awful and me obviously was worried about me and so that was the impact on them. Thank you. Want to move to your trip to Venice in December 2001.
03:01:50 Venice in December 2001. You say at paragraph 4.35 of your statement that just before Christmas 2001, Saraki surprised you with tickets to Venice. Had you discussed going to Venice together before he surprised you?
03:02:01 Venice together before he surprised you? No.
03:02:02 No. So, as far as you concerned, it's completely out of the blue. Yeah. Yeah. And [clears throat] do you recall how in advance of the trip did he surprise you? I feel like it was fairly close to the actual traveling. So, at that point, I'd
03:02:15 actual traveling. So, at that point, I'd finished [clears throat] one contract that I'd been with. Excuse excuse me. I'd finished one contract and so I was kind of between jobs and so I
03:02:27 so I was kind of between jobs and so I guess he knew I could travel quickly. I don't know. But it it felt to me and again 25 years down the line, it felt to me like a really special and quite spontaneous gesture and we were going
03:02:40 spontaneous gesture and we were going soon. It wasn't like we're going in four months time, get ready, you know, it was like literally get ready, we're going. And I [clears throat] in your statement at paragraph 4.35, you say you don't recall exactly how
03:02:52 you say you don't recall exactly how Saraki presented the tickets to you, although the gift itself was very memorable. And then you go on to say, I remember feeling so overwhelmed and flattered that he had organized this for as I felt loved. Do you recall what he
03:03:03 as I felt loved. Do you recall what he said to you about the trip when he surprised [clears throat] you? As in, this is romantic. This is Do you recall what he said? Um,
03:03:11 Um, one thing I remember him sort of saying, I don't just take anyone to Venice, you know, like you're special, you know, you're really special to me. You mean something to me. I don't just take anyone to Venice. And that was at the time. Um, as far as
03:03:24 And that was at the time. Um, as far as I remember, um,
03:03:29 um, yeah, I I again, I shouldn't have, but I do have really hazy memories around it. Uh, I just remember feeling just so overwhelmed with that gesture because
03:03:40 overwhelmed with that gesture because that wasn't something that I regularly experienced. And do you recall if you suggested any alternative or other reason for going over to Venice? No.
03:03:52 No. Did he indicate to you that you may meet other people or activists while you were there?
03:03:56 there? Not that I remember. No. Um, [snorts] in his statement, we don't need to bring it up. Page 95, paragraph 194.1, he says, "My flight and accommodation
03:04:08 he says, "My flight and accommodation was paid for by SDS. Lindsay would have paid for her journey and accommodation. I do not now remember traveling together. I do not think that we did, but I cannot be sure." and we went to
03:04:19 but I cannot be sure." and we went to the northeast of Italy to visit um Venice. Um your recollection, paragraph 4.35, uh was that he paid for the flights and the accommodation. Is that right?
03:04:31 right? Do you recall him handing you the physical tickets when he surprised you, having already been paid for? I'm not sure I recall actually having been given the tickets. I'll have seen them, I guess, but I I don't recall him
03:04:46 them, I guess, but I I don't recall him just going, "Here, here are the tickets."
03:04:49 tickets." And do you recall if you ever told you how he paid for them, whether from income or savings or I didn't even ask. Um,
03:05:02 I'm going to bring up please MPS71194 at tab B6 of the bundle. Uh if we go to page five, the third paragraph heading December 2001.
03:05:21 So here it says CI KGY Allen traveled out to Italy with senior members of the SPCWI
03:05:29 SPCWI trip used for legend enhancement and also to ascertain SP involvement with Italian um extreme left-wing anarchist groups. Did you travel with any senior members of the SPCWI who I assume is the
03:05:41 members of the SPCWI who I assume is the Committee for Workers International? No.
03:05:44 No. Uh, did you travel on a plane with anyone else? No.
03:05:48 No. Can you describe please your memory of the flight to Venice and how you and Saraki were acting towards each other? Um, so being on a flight was quite an unusual thing for me. I think this was only like the third time I'd taken a
03:06:00 only like the third time I'd taken a flight in me life. Um, so it wasn't just something that I regularly did. So I I do remember the flight over um just being embarrassingly
03:06:13 um just being embarrassingly uh demonstrative in me affection for him. Us telling each other we loved each other, kissing um you know being physically very close.
03:06:25 physically very close. Uh
03:06:27 Uh yeah, that's about all I can say really. And I would not have been like that had other people been traveling with us. Um he goes on to say at page 95
03:06:39 Um he goes on to say at page 95 paragraphund if we can keep this document up but umund page paragraph 194 of his statements I did travel to Italy when in my cover roll on an occasion when Lindsay was also there. The reason
03:06:51 when Lindsay was also there. The reason for my trip to Italy was linked to SP and NP so socialist party and no platform. I think we spent one night together. He goes on to talk about his authorization to travel and the purpose
03:07:04 authorization to travel and the purpose was for SP activists to hold discussions with Italian activists of similar leanings. I think I was asked to attend by SP because I could speak Italian. At any point did Saraki or you meet with
03:07:15 any point did Saraki or you meet with any Italian anarchist groups or Italian activists when you were in Italy? No. If we um if could we take that down please and have MPS0527780
03:07:26 tab B1 of the bundle
03:07:36 page two please
03:08:00 Thank you. If we could just zoom in under the heading commander Pierce first paragraph
03:08:06 paragraph um
03:08:08 um where it says socialist party activist will travel to Italy Venice Verona and Traviso to consolidate and extend links with their Italian counterparts.
03:08:23 with their Italian counterparts. Do you recall any plan to meet with Italian activists that did not come to fruition for whatever reason? Absolutely not. No, my entire understanding of this trip was romantic.
03:08:34 understanding of this trip was romantic. And what was your assessment of Saraki's Italian whilst you were there? Um, again, it's it's just a memory, a fleet of memory really, but I I felt
03:08:45 fleet of memory really, but I I felt like he was uncomfortable speaking Italian and I just thought that that might have just been his lack of recent use. Um, but yeah. And at any point did
03:08:56 use. Um, but yeah. And at any point did you go to Verona as part of the trip? No.
03:09:00 No. Um, if we go to page three of this document, please we can see a travel application for DS Steven Beiels and Carlos Raki for the 17th of December to the 19th of December. Does that accord
03:09:12 the 19th of December. Does that accord with your memory of the dates of the trip?
03:09:15 trip? Um, it it it sounds about right to me. Yeah. And it it was actually this document that confirmed to me it was then. So I couldn't pinpoint it beforehand, but it I knew straight away it was right. So we could go to page 11.
03:09:28 it was right. So we could go to page 11. We can see a claim of expenses and it's for a flight from Stanstead to Traviso Pierce to land at 7 a.m. local
03:09:39 Traviso Pierce to land at 7 a.m. local time.
03:09:41 time. um
03:09:44 um fair paid no receipt due to operational circumstances and then return to MPD 2300 on the 19th.
03:09:55 on the 19th. Do those flight date details sound accurate to you and the timings from your memory? It's a long time ago. Sounds about right. Yeah. Yeah. Um so you would have spent the whole of the 17th, 18th, and the 19th in Venice.
03:10:08 the 17th, 18th, and the 19th in Venice. as far as I remember. Yeah. There there was nothing to there's nothing in me memory to to say that we didn't, you know. And um from this document, it seems that
03:10:20 And um from this document, it seems that you flew into Traviso. Do you recall if you spent any time there or did you just go straight to to Venice? Does that We got a bus straight to Venice from Traviso
03:10:28 Traviso and then you didn't go back or spend any time there. No.
03:10:31 No. Um that can come down. Thank you. Um, looking at your accommodation at paragraph 4.38 of your saint, you say you recall that Saraki had booked a beautiful flat in the center of the city
03:10:42 beautiful flat in the center of the city in which the land lady had left as a bottle of wine as a welcome gift. So, so it was a self-catered apartment sort of Airbnb cell rather than a hotel. Yeah. And it was a beautiful like sort
03:10:53 Yeah. And it was a beautiful like sort of old apartment that you'd imagine was in Venice, you know? I mean, it was just so right for the whole ambiencece of the visit, you know. So yeah, it was it was literally
03:11:03 literally I we might have even met the land lady when we arrived and taken the key and then you know and then it was up to us. And um how many bedrooms did the apartment have? One.
03:11:13 One. And so you stayed the night um all two nights together in that apartment in the same bedroom I think. So yeah. Looking at the activities you did at
03:11:24 Looking at the activities you did at paragraph 4.40 40 you say you walked all over the city discovering the parts of Venice lesser known to tourists and at 4.38 um you were unhindered by the crowds as it was so cold. Um what do you
03:11:37 crowds as it was so cold. Um what do you recall doing whilst you were there? And I'll come to the photos in a moment just to elaborate on the types of things you were doing and where you went. Um well I've I've always had a particular love for architecture. So we
03:11:49 particular love for architecture. So we um I mean I've been back to Venice since and it it's it is very very very busy in a tourist season. So it was absolutely unique to be there at a time when you
03:12:01 unique to be there at a time when you could walk at your own pace. You could stop, you could appreciate the architecture, just the pure beauty of the place. Um so we did a lot of walking. I took photographs. Uh we um would nip into
03:12:17 photographs. Uh we um would nip into bars, we'd have lovely local food. Uh it was freezing cold being December and so we would regularly go back to the
03:12:29 we would regularly go back to the apartments and have sex to warm ourselves up a bit. Um and uh yeah, I mean it was it was wandering around discovering the city. I imagine how the locals uh
03:12:44 the city. I imagine how the locals uh experience the city. It's, you know, and do you recall he paid for the meals and the drinks? Um
03:12:51 Um I I only remember I imagine knowing me I didn't I it was like going Dutch type of thing. We paid uh equally. But I do remember one time
03:13:03 uh equally. But I do remember one time being um on St. Mark's Square. Um is it St. Mark Square? Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I just had a a blank then. Um
03:13:15 a a blank then. Um and uh
03:13:18 and uh I'm not sure if we'd just been in the Dojo's Palace, but anyway, we we went on St. Mark Square and um it was cold and we nipped into a ridiculously expensive bar just on St. Mark Square and he paid
03:13:30 bar just on St. Mark Square and he paid for drinks there, which, you know, I would never in a million years have paid those prices. So when I'm pretty sure he paid h and I've got photographs of us in that bar as well.
03:13:41 that bar as well. Um
03:13:44 Um so yeah, it was it was entirely a tourist
03:13:47 tourist visit.
03:13:48 visit. Of course. Should we get up some of the photos? Um if we um first up, please 38235
03:13:56 38235 tab A5.
03:13:59 tab A5. So, I think you provided about 15 photos of um your trip to Venice. And just to be clear, all these photos are taken by you, I think. Say for one, which is a photo of you. And that was that taken by
03:14:11 photo of you. And that was that taken by Carlay?
03:14:12 Carlay? Yeah.
03:14:13 Yeah. On the camera that he bought me. This is on your SLR camera he bought you.
03:14:17 you. Yeah.
03:14:17 Yeah. And all the other photos are they that are taken by you? Yeah.
03:14:22 Yeah. Um [clears throat] looking at this one, where is this? Um this is the um I've got a mental block. The cathedral on St.
03:14:34 got a mental block. The cathedral on St. Mark's Square. Um I've just got a total mental block. I think you described looking over St. Mark's Square. It is looking over St. Mark Square. And you say this is Carlo Saraki. Here
03:14:45 And you say this is Carlo Saraki. Here it is.
03:14:47 it is. And then just to the next one. 38236. Um what is that? That's the bedroom in the apartment that we stayed in. And again, um, Carlo in the background
03:14:58 And again, um, Carlo in the background there.
03:14:59 there. Yeah.
03:14:59 Yeah. Um, 38238
03:15:09 again. Where where is this? This is just wondering um the, you know, fairly empty streets of Venice. Just uh looking at architecture,
03:15:20 Venice. Just uh looking at architecture, just taking in the beauty of the city. And the next one, 38223.
03:15:31 This is a photo of of you. And where is that? Do you recall? Again, that's just that's on the waterfront just uh off St. Mark's Square.
03:15:42 Square. And then 38224.
03:15:48 Where's that? Um I seem to remember that was um as we were coming back or our last day there and we'd stopped off for coffee and uh a a little cake in a local
03:16:04 coffee and uh a a little cake in a local city.
03:16:05 city. And then I think the last one 38226
03:16:12 again and over a canal in Venice. Yeah. Don't know which one. Did you have a good time whilst you were there? A [snorts]
03:16:19 [snorts] beautiful time. Yeah. And there's a picture of him actually close up with sunglasses on his head and to me that is an expression of how I felt about him at that time. So there's a lot of love in
03:16:31 that time. So there's a lot of love in that picture and um I was very attracted to him at that time and I think that shows in that picture. So, uh, yeah, I
03:16:42 shows in that picture. So, uh, yeah, I mean, I was I was so impressed with the beauty of the place, but as you can see, he was in the vast majority of the photographs as well. Did you spend Oh, we can take that down. Thank you. Did you spend the whole of
03:16:53 Thank you. Did you spend the whole of the trip together? Um, apart from I think apart from this one little period uh I'm not sure if it was on the second or third day um when
03:17:06 was on the second or third day um when we split for maybe 20 minutes or so. Um so to that point at paragraph 4.42 for two of your sake. You say there were a couple of times where Saraki seemed quiet and somewhat withdrawn during our
03:17:18 quiet and somewhat withdrawn during our trip. And during a trip to the Rialto Food Market, I left Sak on his own for around 20 minutes just so that I could get some time to myself as despite my attempts to get him to have a conversation with it, he would not
03:17:29 conversation with it, he would not reciprocate. Um, did you ask him why you seemed withdrawn and wouldn't have a conversation with you at the time? And what did he say? I don't remember if I did or not. I I assume I did, but I might have also just
03:17:42 assume I did, but I might have also just thought, you know, just let him do what he's doing and, you know, don't don't make him feel bad, okay,
03:17:52 okay, necessarily. And that paragraph 4.43 of your statement, you say, "On your return, I walked up to him from behind and noticed that he was on the phone. I heard him saying something along the lines of, yeah, she's not here. She's pissed off
03:18:04 yeah, she's not here. She's pissed off with me, mate." Yeah. Um, [clears throat] did you ask him about what he said on the phone at the time? Do you remember? No. I I felt really bad actually after hearing that. I thought, "Oh, I've just
03:18:15 hearing that. I thought, "Oh, I've just made him feel really awful." And um, so I didn't uh pick that up with him. But why did you think you'd made him feel?
03:18:23 feel? Cuz he said she's pissed off with me, mate. You know, I'd left I' I'd walked away from him because I was a little exasperated by him, but I didn't want to make him feel bad about it. You know what I mean? I just wanted a little bit
03:18:34 what I mean? I just wanted a little bit of distance. Um, I wasn't used to spending that much time in one go with him, you see. So, um, yeah, I I I I felt awful that I'd actually made
03:18:47 I I felt awful that I'd actually made him feel bad. And did you ask him who he was talking to at the time? I don't think I did. I'm not sure. Um,
03:18:59 do you recall what you thought about the comment? I think you've said she's pissed off with you. I thought he might have rung one of his mates that we knew in London and he was basically saying,
03:19:11 in London and he was basically saying, you know,
03:19:13 you know, and um
03:19:15 and um [snorts]
03:19:15 [snorts] you say that since then you've spoken to some of Saraki's target group activists about whether they recall being called by Saraki at that time and obviously being very careful about privacy and if
03:19:28 being very careful about privacy and if you need to write the names down if you can't say them in open, but do you recall do you know who who have you spoken to about whether they received any phone call. Um I've spoken to um my very old friend
03:19:41 Um I've spoken to um my very old friend who was in a relationship with Alfred. Mhm.
03:19:44 Mhm. And Alfred Mhm.
03:19:46 Mhm. Um Foia
03:19:48 Um Foia and Joe Batty. Um
03:19:54 Um I think that might have been it that the people that have actually directly asked and they have said to you they don't recall
03:20:01 recall Yeah. having a conversation with him. Yeah.
03:20:04 Yeah. And you now suspect that he could have been talking to his cover officer DS Beiels who was in Verona at the time. Yeah.
03:20:11 Yeah. Um why do you with hindsight suspect that it was him and not another friend of Saraki? Uh
03:20:20 Uh well making an international call by by mobile at that point was like a really expensive thing to do. So, it seemed odd that he would phone someone back home on
03:20:31 that he would phone someone back home on his mobile. Um, I mean, I just accepted that that's what he was doing because I obviously caught him on the phone to someone. Um, but it makes complete sense
03:20:42 someone. Um, but it makes complete sense to me and possibly I'm making a leap here, but it it makes complete sense to me that actually what he was doing was taking the opportunity to speak to his cover officer while he was alone. Um, and just and whoever was on the end
03:20:55 Um, and just and whoever was on the end of that call was in full awareness that I was with him but temporarily separated from him. I mean, the she didn't say me name, said she, so that person knew who
03:21:07 name, said she, so that person knew who she was. And um, so yeah, I I I just assume it was Bill's. And how do you um feel about so at the
03:21:19 And how do you um feel about so at the time how did you feel about Saraki after that holiday? Um well it was such a apart from feeling a little confused as to why he sometimes
03:21:30 a little confused as to why he sometimes felt a bit unwilling to uh converse. Um I I was very much in love with him at
03:21:41 Um I I was very much in love with him at this point and I I was I I absolutely adored that holiday and it's something that has stuck in me memory. Um
03:21:52 sorry what just what what exactly did you want from me there? It was just about how you um felt about that holiday at the time and I think you've answered that question. Yeah. Um and now with hindsight, how do you feel
03:22:03 and now with hindsight, how do you feel about that holiday? Uh I'm absolutely disgusted that um I was uh
03:22:14 uh used to well I guess I guess that was it was I was used for sex I imagine then that's why we went there because there
03:22:25 that's why we went there because there was no he he could have possibly used it as a as a holiday and just thought oh you know let's have a a a nice sort of romantic time together. Um I'm I'm
03:22:37 romantic time together. Um I'm I'm absolutely disgusted that he should use that to kind of deepen our affection for each other. And um and we had so much sex on that holiday that I'm I'm
03:22:48 sex on that holiday that I'm I'm absolutely disgusted with with his uh use of that as a as a tactic. Sir, I um have a a few topics to go, but
03:23:01 Sir, I um have a a few topics to go, but probably only about half an hour. Um, would you like to take lunch now? I think that's probably a good idea. Um, we could carry on and try and finish it, but I think it's probably better that uh
03:23:12 but I think it's probably better that uh we all have a break, including you. Absolutely. Thank you. Then uh we will resume two.