The witness, Lindsey, provides emotional testimony regarding the end of her relationship with an undercover officer (Saraki), detailing his patterns of disappearance, emotional manipulation, and the subsequent discovery of his true identity. She describes the long-term psychological impact on herself and her son, and characterizes the relationship as non-consensual and abusive.
00:21:51 Good afternoon. I must make my usual pronouncement. Uh this afternoon's proceedings are being uh broadcast on the live link uh after a 10-minute delay. Uh those with mobiles may use
00:22:03 delay. Uh those with mobiles may use them to report what they have heard in the hearing room after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography. Thank you.
00:22:17 recording or photography. Thank you. Lindsay, [clears throat] I want to turn to the end of your relationship. In paragraph 4.48 of your statement, you explain in spring 2002, uh Saraki disappeared and you say you
00:22:28 uh Saraki disappeared and you say you were unable to contact him. He replied to none of your calls or texts and you became increasingly worried as the days went on imagining that something may have happened to him. Was it unusual for him not to reply to your calls and texts
00:22:40 him not to reply to your calls and texts for
00:22:40 for Absolutely. Yeah. I mean to my memory up to that point we've been in contact somehow daily. It was often by text. Um but yeah it was it was daily
00:22:51 but yeah it was it was daily communication and so yeah that that's why it was such a shock.
00:22:57 a shock. And you've got at paragraph 4.49. 49 that Saraki did then contact you four days later. And what you say is you were flooded by relief. When you next met, he told you that one of his football mates
00:23:08 told you that one of his football mates had experienced a crisis in his personal life and that he had made himself available to him during that time. I was so relieved that he was all right, that I didn't emphasize to him just how worried I'd been. Although I had
00:23:20 worried I'd been. Although I had actually admired him for being there for his friend at the expense of all else, a part of me remained unsettled by his disappearance. How was his Saraki's behavior towards you when he was
00:23:31 behavior towards you when he was explaining this? Was he apologetic for example?
00:23:34 example? Um yeah, I guess it was an attempt to explain um I don't think I made it clear to him just just how it affected me. Um
00:23:47 to him just just how it affected me. Um because again, I didn't want to make him feel bad, you know. So, uh, I but he must have sensed he my relief at him contacting me again and I must have said
00:23:58 contacting me again and I must have said something potentially which made him realize just how unsettling that was. I mean, he must have known, you know, um, and you [clears throat] say you remained unsettled by his disappearance.
00:24:10 remained unsettled by his disappearance. Can you just elaborate a bit further about what you mean by this and how you were feeling about your relationship with Saraki at the time? Uh so up until then I seem
00:24:21 Uh so up until then I seem I seem to remember um feeling really positive about our relationship. I don't think anything had changed since that romantic holiday. I don't remember anything changing since then until this
00:24:32 anything changing since then until this point which was quite abrupt. Um so the abruptness of it I mean what he said really settled me down. You know what I mean? because I I was quite and I think
00:24:44 mean? because I I was quite and I think what it was was probably I was still very much affected by the end of the really important relationship before Saraki. [clears throat] So,
00:24:55 Saraki. [clears throat] So, um what he said did calm me down a lot and Justin being back in contact and not expressing that anything was wrong with our relationship,
00:25:06 our relationship, you know, did settle me down. And is it right that your relationship effectively returned to how it was before in terms of seeing each other and how he behaved towards you? That's what I recall. Yeah. You go on to explain at paragraph 450
00:25:18 You go on to explain at paragraph 450 and 4.51 that it may have been around this time that Saraki mentioned to you and some others about his mother being ill and you recall during a heated argument Saraki became upset and blurted
00:25:30 argument Saraki became upset and blurted out that his mother was dying. Um, how did you this make you feel when you heard this? So, first of all, I I can't remember the
00:25:41 So, first of all, I I can't remember the exact chronology of events, but for us to have been having a heated interaction, he must have continued with that distancing himself
00:25:52 continued with that distancing himself from me for me to have felt my backup sufficiently to have been in in any way combative towards him because that's not how I was. [snorts] Um,
00:26:05 sorry, repeat your question. Sorry, just the last.
00:26:07 the last. No worries. When he was talking about his mother being unwell and then he blurted out in this this argument, she was dying. And how how did that affect you?
00:26:15 you? Oh, inc. I felt incredibly guilty and I just like got right back into me box, you know, because um I I you know, that's one of the worst things that can happen to a person other than maybe the
00:26:27 happen to a person other than maybe the loss of a child, you know, losing the parent. And so I felt awful for creating any kind of uh negative feeling once he
00:26:40 any kind of uh negative feeling once he had blurted that out. It seemed really genuine. It seemed, you know, and and it really took me by surprise because he had mentioned it, as far as I can recall, he'd mentioned his mother was ill, but he really hadn't spelt out at
00:26:52 ill, but he really hadn't spelt out at that point that it was as serious as that. So yeah, I was shocked. I was guilty. And obviously I my empathy just really extended out towards him.
00:27:04 really extended out towards him. And you recall this is in and around the time where he's disappearing and coming back. Is that right? Yeah, it's definitely after that. Otherwise we wouldn't have had a we wouldn't have been in a an argumentative scenario.
00:27:15 scenario. You then say paragraph 4.52 um a while later he became uncontable again for several days. And you comment you have no recollection as to how long after his initial appear disappearance
00:27:27 after his initial appear disappearance has occurred and it may be the second or third time that he had done this. You then go on to say that your uh memory of this time is hazy but you made a note in a book at the time and you recall this
00:27:40 a book at the time and you recall this was dated the 19th of April 2002 but you've not been able to find that book. No.
00:27:46 No. So I understand. How do you then recall that it was dated 19th of April 2002? So, I found it um during me civil case. So, fairly recently, I found it. I
00:27:58 So, fairly recently, I found it. I learned a lot from it and then I've moved house since then and managed to not locate it since without a lot of upheaval. Um, so yeah, I I made a note
00:28:09 upheaval. Um, so yeah, I I made a note of it and
00:28:11 of it and it was
00:28:11 it was Do you recall what that note said, the contemporaneous one you made at the time?
00:28:17 time? No,
00:28:19 No, I'm afraid I don't. But I remember [clears throat] I I do remember the original I remember what it said and the the the original note that you made. So
00:28:30 the the original note that you made. So what did that say? Um so I'm not going to go into it all. Uh
00:28:37 Uh oh, I wasn't going to do this. [laughter] Please.
00:28:42 Please. It's quite sad. No, do do pause. Absolutely no hurry. Yeah, I'm fine. Just I'm a bit of a crier in life, unfortunately. So, yeah. [snorts] Um,
00:28:55 unfortunately. So, yeah. [snorts] Um, so yeah, it's it's sad and um [snorts]
00:29:02 yeah, it's so basically uh I just wrote and I must have written it. Um, yeah. So shall I go into the
00:29:13 yeah. So shall I go into the circumstances around that being written around that date? Okay. So it was it it sticks out in memory as as quite dramatic because it was
00:29:23 was so [snorts] um yeah he disappeared and whereas the other time I firmly remember I couldn't contact him and then he got in touch with me. This time his phone rang out
00:29:37 with me. This time his phone rang out but wasn't answered and then I'd ring back again and his phone was off. So, we'd arranged to meet the weekend after and I must have been trying to firm up
00:29:48 and I must have been trying to firm up when, you know, so I' I'd ring and his phone would be off then and then I'd ring again and his phone would be on but wouldn't be answered. Um, and so I
00:30:01 and so I uh I just knew that this was kind of like him basically saying, you know, I've I've I've had enough of this relationship. Um, and so I kind of in
00:30:12 relationship. Um, and so I kind of in floods of tears took the keys and um, uh, I didn't have a car or anything. So I went over on night buses from Deafford to Hackne um, which took an
00:30:25 Deafford to Hackne um, which took an hour and a half, two hours, you know, each way. [snorts] And I tried to get into the I tried to well, first of all, I noticed that he obviously wasn't in the flat because his car wasn't there. There were no, you know,
00:30:36 There were no, you know, you couldn't see much of the flat from the street, but I I'd have seen if he'd have been in if there was a light on or whatever. So, I just assumed that he wasn't there. I tried to open the door, but realized I didn't have the deadlock
00:30:49 but realized I didn't have the deadlock key. I only had like the Yale to use a brand name, you know. Um, and so I couldn't get in. So uh I kind of remained outside and you know just like
00:31:02 remained outside and you know just like I mean this is embarrassing to admit but you know I I waited that time and I cried and I felt sorry for myself and I went back home when I realized after a while he wasn't just going to turn up. I couldn't get in. I couldn't affect the
00:31:13 couldn't get in. I couldn't affect the situation in any single way. I just went back on public transport back to defford and just you know cried in public. Luckily you know 3:00 in the morning and there was no one there to see it really.
00:31:25 there was no one there to see it really. Um, so that was the situation around it and I must have got home and just in me self-pity and misery just like you know
00:31:37 self-pity and misery just like you know wrote exactly what had happened and then wrote some stuff about um how
00:31:45 Yeah, I won't go into that. Okay,
00:31:48 Okay, sorry.
00:31:48 sorry. Don't worry. Is this pathetic? [snorts] Um,
00:31:52 Um, yeah. So, it's a shame I can't find it because I would have shared it with the inquiry and you would have seen how I was feeling at that point. Um, I was devastated. I really was. And and that
00:32:03 devastated. I really was. And and that was the final like, you know, I'm not going to swear, but that was the final go away from him to me at that point. You know, it was that was cruel. It was really really cruel. [snorts]
00:32:14 really really cruel. [snorts] Um,
00:32:16 Um, and [clears throat] what was I mean this again maybe opposite. was your level of worry about Saraki that made you decide to go to his flat in the middle of the night?
00:32:28 flat in the middle of the night? I mean, I'm going to be brutally honest with you here. I I was not necessarily worried about him. [snorts] I was worried about our relationship and how this was a definite get away. I don't
00:32:40 this was a definite get away. I don't want to kind of know you anymore. That's how I interpreted it. So, um, I was I was I was concerned about myself and how I felt and how I was going to be affected by, you know, a total closure
00:32:53 affected by, you know, a total closure of the door. And when you got back in touch, did you [clears throat] tell him you'd gone to the flat because you were so worried about your
00:33:04 because you were so worried about your relationship? I'm not sure. I don't know. Actually, I don't remember if I did or not. Don't recall having that conversation what his reaction to it was. Does that jog any memories? I don't actually remember speaking to
00:33:16 I don't actually remember speaking to him very much after that. I remember just withdrawing, extremely hurt, and um yeah, I I I'm not really I'm hazy about what happened after that.
00:33:27 what happened after that. Of course, you go on at paragraph 4.54 of your statement to say when Saraki got back in touch, he seemed sheepish and said he'd left his phone at work over the weekend and you sorry, I do. Yeah, of course. I
00:33:40 and you sorry, I do. Yeah, of course. I remember that. Yeah, don't worry. Yeah. [snorts] I mean, he tried to he he was dismissive. Um, he was cold and he was just unconcerned that I'd been in this
00:33:51 unconcerned that I'd been in this turmoil as far as I can recall. And he just basically went, you know, I left me phone at work. You know, completely implausible explanation for what had
00:34:02 implausible explanation for what had just happened. Um, I don't remember him. I say sheepish. So he might have found it difficult to totally ditch me in such a harsh way. Um
00:34:16 totally ditch me in such a harsh way. Um but he certainly wasn't apologetic. Um [snorts] and and [clears throat] you um explain your statement that because of this and his behavior, you resigned yourself. This being the end of
00:34:28 resigned yourself. This being the end of end of the Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um during the time of your relationship where he is disappearing, were you still having sex at that time? Yeah. [snorts]
00:34:39 Yeah. [snorts] And um
00:34:42 And um [clears throat] was he saying anything to you about the relationship and his feelings about you? Well, he whether it's cowardice or whether he it was deliberately trying to
00:34:53 whether he it was deliberately trying to keep me on a back burner. Um, but he the impression I got was that he there was still some hope for this relationship to so you know it was like
00:35:04 relationship to so you know it was like I kind of knew I really knew on some fundamental level that it was the end and he' just ditched me but he just he made different verbally he made different noises you know
00:35:15 different noises you know we we'll come to what he said to you in a moment in your letter to him but just looking what you said at paragraph 4.55 you say I [snorts] offered Saraki the choice of ending things between us or as having a casual relationship ship where
00:35:26 having a casual relationship ship where we could see other people and he shut down at that suggestion. We open our relationship and we did not discuss it any further. And then you go on to describe it being very emotionally
00:35:37 describe it being very emotionally overwhelming for you. Um so you've described effectively that night when you go to visit him his flat on the 90 April as the effective end of your re relationship. That's
00:35:49 your re relationship. That's interesting. Did you get any impression from him as to his reaction to the end of that relationship? Uh
00:35:58 Uh well, as I say, you know, he kind he he was kind of he felt comfortable enough being that cold, but was also uh trying to make out that it wasn't the end of
00:36:09 to make out that it wasn't the end of the relationship, you know, he he was so I say he was sheepish, but I I I also remember he was almost like a little bit belligerent, you know, of like I I left me phone at
00:36:20 you know, of like I I left me phone at work and so you know, what are you kind of creating this fuss for? You know, it was it was a strange mixture of of signals.
00:36:31 mixture of of signals. And although I knew fundamentally, unless I'm projecting onto this big time now, but I knew fundamentally that that was the end of the relationship, um I was kind of still well confused as
00:36:45 um I was kind of still well confused as to how this had happened and I was desperately trying to hold on to that relationship as well. So, um, [clears throat] if we could get up the, um, letter, um, which is UCPI
00:36:57 the, um, letter, um, which is UCPI 38232,
00:36:59 38232, tab A21 of the bundle. Can I just tell you how embarrassing this is to see? I want everything to be open. I really want everything to be seen, but this is majorly humiliating and embarrassing to show this publicly,
00:37:10 and embarrassing to show this publicly, but yeah, I just wanted to make that clear.
00:37:13 clear. Um, [snorts] not at all. Um this as I'm understand is a draft letter that you wrote um and you did send a final version to um Saraki in
00:37:26 did send a final version to um Saraki in September 2002. But the difference is is you say that the parts which you've crossed out were not in the final version. I assume so. Yeah. Um if we [clears throat] can just zoom
00:37:38 Um if we [clears throat] can just zoom in on the first um paragraph.
00:37:43 Uh, and you say, "I'm sure you'll be confused after getting an earful from me the other day to now receive a letter. Truth is, I needed to say what I said because it was doing my head in, but also I regret being so harsh." So, were
00:37:55 also I regret being so harsh." So, were you still communicating between April and September when you sent this final letter?
00:38:00 letter? Yeah, we were communicating by text and we saw each other once. And who was instigating the communication? Um,
00:38:09 Um, I'd I'd say it was him as much as me. It was it it was a weird sort of thing. I think if if he had just gone end of I would not have continued communication.
00:38:20 would not have continued communication. It this is why I have the feeling that he was just keeping me dangling, you know, he was keeping me on the back burner in case uh which is particularly cold and cruel.
00:38:31 cold and cruel. Um [clears throat] and you sort of mentioned that you met up once and I think at 4.68 you say this was uh in the summer to see a Mark Thomas gig. Was that just the two of you or was that with others?
00:38:42 or was that with others? Just the two of us. How did that come about? I don't remember. Um, and you say then after that he then began to text you again suggesting that
00:38:53 began to text you again suggesting that it was possible there may be a future. So what kind of things was he saying to you in those messages? I'm not necessarily sure it was just after that. As I say, this is part of his keeping me on a string. So I don't
00:39:07 his keeping me on a string. So I don't fully remember and actually this letter has been really useful in uh bringing a few things back um about what he was saying which is this is like an end for
00:39:18 saying which is this is like an end for now type of thing you know and um
00:39:22 and um yeah but I can't remember specifics if I'm really honest with you. If we go very briefly to the second paragraph uh and you starting the truth is
00:39:34 and you starting the truth is um that's fine. Um and just the point there I think you've made it earlier but just to illustrate um there's a point where he says you said you'd never met anyone like me and you don't just take
00:39:45 anyone like me and you don't just take anyone to Venice and that for some reason I don't understand you stopped making an effort. So these are still things he's saying to you in that period when he's disappearing. Yeah. Absolutely. And then if we go down
00:39:58 Yeah. Absolutely. And then if we go down further down in the letter, it starts since we split, I've missed you. Oh, sorry. Just let me clarify things like I've never met anyone like you. Yes,
00:40:07 Yes, that wasn't then. That was when he when we met. That was part of his tactic to
00:40:13 tactic to emotionally attach myself to him. Uh, and then it goes on to say, um, since we split, I've missed you and
00:40:24 um, since we split, I've missed you and you not getting in touch except for when you [clears throat] needed someone to talk to from Italy hurt deeply, even though I was also flattered that you chose me to call. It
00:40:35 flattered that you chose me to call. It was probably because you kept saying friends for the mo as if you still wanted a relationship to eventually happen again. That I was offended so much by your ignorance of me. If you ignorance of me, excuse me, if you'd had
00:40:48 ignorance of me, excuse me, if you'd had the bottle to say it was defo over from your point of view, then I'd have moved on. But saying for the mo and then sending offhand text like I was being a nuisance by contacting you, that really
00:40:59 nuisance by contacting you, that really wound me up. So, first of all, him saying friends for the mo. This is after your breakup in April 2002. Yeah.
00:41:07 Yeah. And was this said to you repeatedly? Um, yeah, I think so. Uh, and then you say he followed up that with offhand messages. Can can you remember what kind of things he was
00:41:18 remember what kind of things he was saying to you? Um,
00:41:23 Um, I'm trying to remember the spec. So, I wrote down a text communication, but I I can't I can't find that either, unfortunately. Um, but what was so
00:41:35 unfortunately. Um, but what was so confusing was uh he would make really positive noises, emotionally open, and then I would respond and he would behave to me like I was being a pain, you know,
00:41:48 to me like I was being a pain, you know, and so it was so confusing and emotionally uh conflicting. Um, and it it played right into, you know, like the
00:42:00 it played right into, you know, like the the feelings of selfworth I had. Um, the lack of selfworth I had during the end of the previous relationship, you know, like sort of stringing me along, you know, making that and then like you're
00:42:12 know, making that and then like you're in the way type of, you know, what you expect of me type of thing. I'm not saying they're the words he used. Um but yeah, it was a very very confusing time and emotionally it was hurtful and
00:42:25 time and emotionally it was hurtful and mixed messages and and were you able to mentally let go of that relationship whilst he was still communicating with you? Uh well, this letter speaks to that. You know, I wasn't able to mentally let go of that
00:42:37 wasn't able to mentally let go of that relationship until I went to Joe Batty's 40th and there he was with Donna. And then that was like, you know, that was that was difficult. And you know, the woman who we'd been first set up on
00:42:49 woman who we'd been first set up on dates with before me and they didn't quite we left the part. she she saw that my reaction to seeing him with somebody new and she very very kindly left the
00:43:01 new and she very very kindly left the party with me and we left early and um so yeah until I think until that point I kind of believed some of the crap he was dling out you know which that there was still some there was
00:43:13 that there was still some there was still a future in some way um but this that was very much a okay thank you
00:43:20 thank you no more and you talk in the letter about him calling you from Italy as he needed did someone to talk to and you feeling flattered by this. Can you explain what the call was about?
00:43:30 about? No, I've got no recollection whatsoever of it, but I do say further in the letter, which you might be bringing up, that uh you know, I hope your dad's okay. So, presumably he phoned me to say his dad was unwell. Okay.
00:43:41 Okay. Um which again is just toying with your emotions, isn't it? You know, it's just a cynical
00:43:46 a cynical manipulation which is totally unnecessary. I mean, you know, he'd he'd made it he'd kind of made a few breaks, so there was no need to keep coming
00:43:57 so there was no need to keep coming back, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I I'm I'm confused. I don't understand. I doubt he'll explain next week. H in fact, I'm absolutely convinced he'll deny.
00:44:08 he'll deny. Um,
00:44:10 Um, but yeah, alls I can say is it was emotionally difficult and confusing time.
00:44:15 time. So, just to double check on that, paragraph 4.66 66 is of your statement. You say, "As far as I remember from the scant communication we had after our separations, Raki hinted at his mom's recovery, he rang me sometimes over the
00:44:26 recovery, he rang me sometimes over the summer of or early autumn, supposedly permitted to tell me his father was ill." Um, so is that you uh you're not sure if that's what he was calling about or not?
00:44:35 or not? That's me reading this letter and reading into what that call was about because I've got no memory whatsoever of that call. I'm sorry if that sounds a more sure thing in the in the witness statement, but yeah, I I I have no
00:44:47 statement, but yeah, I I I have no memory of it. Um, if we can just go lastly to the top of the second page. Um, uh, you say
00:44:58 um, I hope you can understand a little where I'm coming from and not just be pissed off with me. And I know your side of it will be very different from my view. Do you c why you thought his side would be
00:45:10 you c why you thought his side would be very different and what he said to you to make you think that? No,
00:45:14 No, I just think I was maybe trying to be kind.
00:45:19 kind. Did you ever get a response to this letter from Saraki? And was this your last communication with him written? Yeah.
00:45:28 Yeah. You've mentioned that can come down. Thank you. you you've [clears throat] mentioned about um the mutual friend's 40th birthday party um and seeing him there [clears throat] with Donna McClean
00:45:39 there [clears throat] with Donna McClean which is just after that letter I think chronologically because I mentioned a birthday card so there's two weeks between mine and I don't know whether I can say that Donna McClean's um evidence yesterday
00:45:51 Donna McClean's um evidence yesterday was that um she had met um Saraki once in sort of January February 2002 but then met again at an event on the 28th of September 2002 at a protest. So, do
00:46:04 of September 2002 at a protest. So, do you think that party was after that? Oh, I'm not sure about that actually. Oh,
00:46:12 Oh, I don't know. Uh um from your memory, did they look like they were a couple at this party? Yeah.
00:46:20 Yeah. Um
00:46:22 Um and how did seeing them together as a couple make you feel at the time? Uh well it was it was a an absolute recognition that everything that he had
00:46:35 recognition that everything that he had said had been basically. Apologies for using that language but um and so it yeah it was it was harsh and that's why I left this really lovely sociable group of people early. Um I
00:46:47 sociable group of people early. Um I felt bad for leaving Joe's party early but um yeah it it made me feel bad enough to do that. And was that the last time you saw Saraki in person? Yeah.
00:47:00 Saraki in person? Yeah. Um, [clears throat] but paragraph 4.59 of your statement, you say that after we had eventually separated for good, you would, you've comment on this already, but just for some detail, you withdrew almost
00:47:12 some detail, you withdrew almost completely from your entire circle of friends as it was painful to be around them. I felt vulnerable and became quite isolated. It was a period of the huge loss of a partner and my friends simultaneously. Thankfully, those
00:47:24 simultaneously. Thankfully, those friendships returned after Saraki's departure, so this loss was not permanent. When you say you withdrew almost completely from your circle of friends, um would you say that was after
00:47:35 friends, um would you say that was after this point in September rather in a rather than April 2002? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because otherwise I wouldn't have gone to Joe's birthday.
00:47:43 birthday. And that you reconnected after Saraki's departure. So, do you mean that's in and around 2006, 2007? I can't date it, but we're in contact now. All the people I lost then, we're in contact now and
00:47:55 lost then, we're in contact now and they're friends. And how do you feel now of that period of loss of those friendships knowing now what you know about Saraki? Um, well, you know, it's it's really
00:48:08 Um, well, you know, it's it's really indefensible behavior. Um, there is absolutely nothing he can say to square that behavior. you know, even if I had been a violent left-wing extremist, as
00:48:20 been a violent left-wing extremist, as he claims, not necessarily about me, but you know, there is no excuse, one to have sex with me, and two, to emotionally manipulate me in such a an
00:48:32 emotionally manipulate me in such a an awful way. Um, so yeah, I'm I'm disgusted. I'm absolutely disgusted. And so those those memories those those positive fond memories that have had
00:48:43 positive fond memories that have had them for so long um just they just shattered you know they just don't exist anymore. Um you [clears throat] then say later on paragraph 7.3 your statement that in
00:48:54 paragraph 7.3 your statement that in 2015 you were initially informed on a phone by a friend that Saraki was a UCIO and then later visited by your friends who confirmed it. What impact has this had on you? Uh
00:49:11 I'm going to try not to cry again cuz it's to do with me son. Um, please take your time. Apologies. [snorts] Um, the [clears throat] impact was as
00:49:23 Um, the [clears throat] impact was as much on me son as it was on me. So, I I was he was very young when all of this came to light. I'm a lone parent and um [snorts] so I wasn't sleeping.
00:49:36 [snorts] so I wasn't sleeping. Oh god, this is self-pity, isn't it? [laughter] Please don't worry. Apologies. It doesn't make things any easier, does it? Um,
00:49:45 Um, please, please don't worry. Um, thank you.
00:49:48 you. These events in lives are have a tremendous impact and I I like to think I understand that they do.
00:49:57 do. I know you appreciate that. I do know you appreciate that. [snorts]
00:50:00 [snorts] Um so yeah I initially I felt I couldn't sleep. I was paranoid. I went around with anxiety. The paranoia didn't last
00:50:11 with anxiety. The paranoia didn't last long actually thankfully. Um because I just thought after a while the worst thing that could have happened has happened. And so how much worse can it get you know um but the effect the worst effect was on me son my young son who I
00:50:23 effect was on me son my young son who I was I was sleepdeprived. I was short-tempered [snorts] and I wasn't, you know, I wasn't there for him like I I would like to have been. Um,
00:50:34 to have been. Um, and and that went on for for a long period of time. And even now, you know, I mean, I'm away from him. You know, it's taken me away for long periods of
00:50:45 it's taken me away for long periods of time. It's taken my uh attention away from him. I home educate him, so he's with me a lot. We're together a lot. He's missed out on on me a lot. Um
00:50:59 He's missed out on on me a lot. Um yeah, the there is no excuse that any of these men can give uh to excuse this behavior.
00:51:09 behavior. Um and
00:51:12 Um and yeah, despite all of this, it it's it's not actually Saraki who I want to see answer for this behavior. It is his managers. It's those who
00:51:23 managers. It's those who had has had saw the authorizations or requested the tasking that I would like to see answer for this behavior. And this round round like this really really
00:51:34 this round round like this really really extensive abuse of members of the British public who [snorts] are doing nothing more really than trying to improve society. Um, so yeah, much as
00:51:45 improve society. Um, so yeah, much as I'm I I don't have particularly positive feelings towards Saraki and his continued lies, it it's he's not to me, he's not the target. Is the target of the people who enable this, paid for this. um the
00:51:59 enable this, paid for this. um the politicians who saw this information and actually thought it was valuable without actually considering us as human beings to totally total dehumanization of of of us because of our political
00:52:11 of of of us because of our political beliefs. [clears throat] You know, um have I gone off on a tangent here? Not at all. Thank you. I want to ask you one particular point. Donna McClean and her evidence yesterday [clears throat]
00:52:22 her evidence yesterday [clears throat] said that she she didn't want to speak on behalf of all the deceived women but felt that and what she said was our bodily autonomy was stolen from us and described as strategic. Does that assessment echo with your experience of
00:52:35 assessment echo with your experience of having a sexual relationship with an undercover officer? Absolutely. It was entirely non-consensual. Um I feel like it it should be the criminal law that prosecutes this. I I
00:52:47 criminal law that prosecutes this. I I feel that strongly about it that there is no excuse for this and this is abuse. This is rape. And so, um, this is why I continue to be involved
00:52:59 this is why I continue to be involved with Police Spy Outer Lives and I'm 100% behind the the campaign messages of Police Spies Outer Lives. And as long as something like the Covert Human Intelligence Sources Criminal Conduct
00:53:11 Intelligence Sources Criminal Conduct Act is is remains in the form it's in, this kind of conduct can still be authorized for chess. Um, and so
00:53:25 authorized for chess. Um, and so I will continue to campaign to change the law and also to um illegalize these abusive sexual relationships. [snorts]
00:53:36 abusive sexual relationships. [snorts] And has um this experience had any impact on your ability to trust people, whether friends or partners? Um it it it did for a little while. I'm not going to lie. You know, I was I was
00:53:47 not going to lie. You know, I was I was kind of very messed up for a little while about relationships, but I am I am quite a naturally open person and I I like people and I enjoy me, you know. So
00:53:58 like people and I enjoy me, you know. So I I haven't maintained that paranoia for very long, which I'm very thankful for because I I think of the women who start who uncovered this entire spy cops
00:54:09 who uncovered this entire spy cops issue in the first place and they were subjected to incredible emotional and psychological torture. Luckily, I am standing on the shoulders of those women. [snorts]
00:54:21 women. [snorts] [laughter] Do not worry at all, please. Um
00:54:27 um yeah, if I I can move on to um what effect did Saraki and [snorts] your relationship with him have on you and your activism? Um I'll I'll never ever lose me
00:54:38 Um I'll I'll never ever lose me socialist politics. I'll never stop even even if I'm not particularly helping to make change, I'll never stop
00:54:49 helping to make change, I'll never stop wanting that change. I'll never stop wanting
00:54:53 wanting the kind of egalitarian society that I'd really like to see that doesn't disadvantage people from birth, you know. So, um Oh, I knew that I'd be talking about the politics that would
00:55:05 talking about the politics that would get me all emotional. [laughter] That was the only thing. Um so, yeah, I'll say that long term. I'm not um
00:55:17 say that long term. I'm not um Oh, sorry. Repeat your question. Sorry. No, it was simply about I think you've answered it simply about the impact it's had on your activism as well. Yeah, that will never leave me. That will never and in fact you know being
00:55:28 will never and in fact you know being associated with police spies out of lives with the campaign opposing police surveillance with the monitoring group with the blacklist support group and definitely with undercover research
00:55:39 definitely with undercover research group incredibly important group of people. Um [snorts] that has actually enhanced me life and that that is the only silver lining is to experience that love and solidarity
00:55:50 to experience that love and solidarity from those people. Um, so yeah, thank you. I hope that answers what it does. Thank you. Those are all my questions for you. Is there any um other facts you would like the inquiry to
00:56:01 facts you would like the inquiry to understand about your experience? Does do opinions come on? I mean, it's facts that the inquiry are um
00:56:08 um will I have a chance to express these opinions that I wrote down at 4:00 this morning because they really And those are all my questions. The answer is yes, of course. Okay, brilliant. If you'd like to do it now. Yeah, it might seem a little disjointed.
00:56:20 Yeah, it might seem a little disjointed. I I didn't I've wrote some of these down which obviously you'll get a copy. Do you mind leaving me in the note afterwards? If you can read me writing. Yeah, absolutely. Better than mine. So yeah, these are the it will seem
00:56:32 So yeah, these are the it will seem disjointed, but these are some of the things that occurred to me this morning when I woke up. Um so Saraki says in his witness statement that um his aim was to
00:56:43 witness statement that um his aim was to help and protect the public. That was his aim for for joining this unit, for doing this work. Um I actually think he did great harm and th those units did great harm to the to the public. Um and
00:56:55 great harm to the to the public. Um and I think it's it would be really interesting to explore the politics of these officers as well because um our politics are being explored as as the
00:57:06 politics are being explored as as the reason for the target. And I'd quite like to know about because I think it's relevant the politics of these individual officers um and their managers, you
00:57:17 officers um and their managers, you know, the people who who who stay at the task and basically what their politics are, you know, to see whether that has skewed the uh the choice of targets any.
00:57:28 skewed the uh the choice of targets any. Um
00:57:30 Um so yeah he Saraki talks about reporting on trade union trade unionists as almost incidental. You know he was reporting on the the left wing amongst the trade
00:57:42 the the left wing amongst the trade unions because obviously they were really worried about how that would steer big organizations like trade unions. [sighs] But I think again it's a fun fundamental misunderstanding of what a trade union is. A trade union is a broad church. It
00:57:55 is. A trade union is a broad church. It is a group of workers and it encompasses a lot of different political belief and so spying on the left wing of trade unions is spying on that trade union.
00:58:06 unions is spying on that trade union. It's the same thing. They are trade unions and often often some of the most active trade unionists are the left of the trade union. Um, and so him trying to demarcate between spying on trade
00:58:18 to demarcate between spying on trade unions and spying on left-wing individual trade unionist, that's the same thing, you know, and I think that's a misunderstanding from his point of view that uh there's a difference. [snorts] um as well as blacklisting. You
00:58:29 [snorts] um as well as blacklisting. You know, he's talking about um you know, he he felt like keeping some of these leftwing elements out of the out of government and public service was an admirable
00:58:41 admirable uh pursuit. Um but actually what he's talking about is blacklisting. You know if if if if from the security services government downwards you know if if
00:58:53 government downwards you know if if people are being kept out of professions because of their political beliefs it's blacklisting and those words should be used the word blacklisting should be used especially when you hear blacklisted workers talk about their
00:59:04 blacklisted workers talk about their experience a heartbreaking devastating experience. Um, I do think they held contempt instead of, you know, Carlos saying that he was protecting and helping members of
00:59:16 he was protecting and helping members of the public, they held contemptuous and condescending attitudes towards the public and the tradecraftraft manual kind of personifies that. I think, you know, some of the incredibly
00:59:27 know, some of the incredibly dehumanizing, offensive language used in that manual, um, I think does say a lot about the psychology of of the people in that unit and who ran that unit.
00:59:40 that unit and who ran that unit. Um,
00:59:42 Um, I think Carlo, sorry if this is disjointed. I think Carlo was a bit of a low rent Bob Lambert in a way. You know, he um he came onto the scene, said he
00:59:53 he um he came onto the scene, said he was unhappily single as quick as he could, got a girlfriend, uh then a second partner, tried to talk her into having a baby, proposed to her, tried to incite
01:00:05 tried to incite activists to arson. I think it's all he's trying to he's trying to compete with Lambert's um obvious, you know,
01:00:16 with Lambert's um obvious, you know, sort of like almost semi-leendary status within this unit, you know. Uh
01:00:22 Uh it's it's quite telling again going back to their politics that in the tradecraftraft manual they've got to be told not to be sexist or racist. It's like who has to be told not to be, you know, it really,
01:00:35 know, it really, you know, it's the vile tone in some of the reporting, the misplaced humor, you know, it speaks a lot to the type of people who who who actually populated these units. Um, and again
01:00:48 populated these units. Um, and again with like talking about Carlo talking about HN67 um having a child, you know, revelations caused some marrynt and amusement. He says, you know, that's disgusting. That's absolutely disgusting. Uh that a
01:01:01 That's absolutely disgusting. Uh that a member of the public has a child under those circumstances and that's amusing. You know, it's tasteless in the extreme. Um
01:01:13 yes. So it would be wonderful. It would be helpful to us and it would be really really good to see you find institutionalized sexism, sexism and
01:01:25 institutionalized sexism, sexism and misogyny in these units. Um, and I think a finding like that actually does reflect the wider institution of of the police, no matter what force. But
01:01:39 the police, no matter what force. But that would be really good to to to give them the set, you know, I mean, they they've earned institutional racism, they've earned institutional corruption, you know, give them the set. Um
01:01:52 Um yeah, I think it's so disjointed, but that yeah, that is basically what I wanted to say. [snorts]
01:02:01 [snorts] Thank you. Um as you probably now know, we have a a short break so that any questions that there may be from other participants Yeah.
01:02:10 Yeah. that can be put to council for her to consider whether or not to ask and whether or not your council wants to reexamine you. Sure. But we'll break for um 10 minutes is
01:02:20 is potentially even less. I'm not aware of any rule 10 at the moment, but I need to check in terms of readation. Well, up to 10 minutes. Let me know when you're ready.
01:13:16 So I'm not aware of any rule 10, but there is some re-examination. Yes. Mr. Gil right um Lindsay you spoke um earlier about
01:13:27 um Lindsay you spoke um earlier about your very good friend your oldest friend um or one of your oldest friends encouraging the relationship with Saraki and you said that she had had a really
01:13:38 and you said that she had had a really positive reaction to him and that her opinion really mattered to you and one of your observations about that was that there was a lot of guilt um in
01:13:49 there was a lot of guilt um in friendship ship circles generally about introducing undercover officers to women and others with whom they ended up having close relationships. And I wondered if you
01:14:01 relationships. And I wondered if you wanted to say anything more about that either in relation to this friend or more widely. Yeah. Um well it's again it's part of that wider
01:14:14 that wider kind of all-encompassing impact of of these uh completely unjustified infiltrations of of activist groups that this you know
01:14:28 of activist groups that this you know the impact is is is felt in so many ways that maybe isn't you know immediately obvious. I'm sorry I'm not being very eloquent actually. I can feel me brain energy just kind of dripping out me
01:14:40 energy just kind of dripping out me here. Um,
01:14:42 here. Um, but yeah, I mean I've seen it. I have seen it. I haven't been around those activists who are still engaging with the inquiry and this issue. I've seen
01:14:53 the inquiry and this issue. I've seen time and again um friends of uh the women particularly but you know friends who've introduced these officers and vouched for these officers in their
01:15:06 vouched for these officers in their activist and social circles just take on this huge weight of guilt you know onto their shoulders and um you know I certainly have absolutely no
01:15:18 you know I certainly have absolutely no uh I'm I'm unequivocal about this there there is the these people should not take on this guilt. The guilt should be taken on by the officers, the managers, the politicians who who
01:15:32 the politicians who who uh saw this as as useful intelligence. I always can't say intelligence without uh quotes unfortunately. Um [clears throat] I'm not sure Charlotte I can actually at
01:15:44 I'm not sure Charlotte I can actually at this point kind of uh make myself any sort of clear on that. Yeah, I think it's one of the unseen sort of impacts um is not only the disorientation of
01:15:57 um is not only the disorientation of those people from the infiltration, you know, and the um frustration that perhaps the movements that they work so hard to progress would was derailed by
01:16:08 hard to progress would was derailed by some of these officers or there was an attempt to derail these movements by these officers. So that's kind of seen impact but you know the guilt of of having then you know vouched for these officers is uh I think is perhaps unseen
01:16:22 officers is uh I think is perhaps unseen and absolutely should not be felt by those people. They that that guilt should be felt by the officers but I've got no absolutely no faith that any of them um are sufficiently
01:16:35 them um are sufficiently emotionally intelligent to to even begin to feel guilt. Um, so yeah, that's about all I can say. I'm very grateful. Thank you very much.
01:16:47 I'm very grateful. Thank you very much. That was all I had to ask. [sighs]
01:16:51 [sighs] May I express my personal thanks to you for
01:16:55 for undertaking the difficult task of speaking of your experiences in a public setting for the record. It is of invaluable help to me in finding out
01:17:08 invaluable help to me in finding out what really happened. And may I say this to you so that you and others are not disappointed. Um my part in this inquiry will end when I have reported on the
01:17:21 will end when I have reported on the SDS.
01:17:23 SDS. uh recommendations as to future undercover deployment and its management will not be made by me but will made will be made by the person who is appointed as my successor in I hope the
01:17:36 appointed as my successor in I hope the not too distant future. Um so please don't be disappointed when I produce my interim port into the SDS that it doesn't contain everything that you
01:17:48 doesn't contain everything that you might hope it would. Yeah. And can I say one further thing to you uh personally and and so that the wider world can understand it that what
01:17:59 wider world can understand it that what uh the wider world hears and what you hear on the audio v and video link or if you're here in person what you hear in person is the open side of undercover
01:18:12 person is the open side of undercover policing. There was a closed side which um will have to remain closed and might if everyone knew about it put matters in
01:18:23 if everyone knew about it put matters in a slightly different perspective doesn't of course
01:18:28 justify uh a lot of the things that you and I have heard about on the open side but uh things have got to be kept in
01:18:39 but uh things have got to be kept in balance if they can be at any rate I'm sorry about that long speech It's appreciated. Although I I I I actually, you know, not having seen the closed evidence, obviously, I
01:18:50 seen the closed evidence, obviously, I actually think that evidence, if the true goal of the inquiry was to allay public concern as as as was written in I think the terms of reference at some point, maybe under Christopher
01:19:01 point, maybe under Christopher Pitchford, I'm not too sure. But if if the goal is to allay public concern about this widespread abuse, you know, the type of abuse that you can dam if you're talking about another country, you know, a really repressive regime,
01:19:13 you know, a really repressive regime, um should be more open, should be public, um and you know, I think the police and security services constantly harping on about how national security
01:19:25 harping on about how national security and how things need to be kept from the British public. Um personally I I don't subscribe to to that point of view and this whole international game of politics that it's
01:19:38 international game of politics that it's constantly hidden behind. Um I I believe in open open government, open uh communication with a population. That's how a population can truly take part in
01:19:51 how a population can truly take part in a democracy as far as I'm concerned. So yeah, I I obviously haven't seen the material you've seen. So, I'm not speaking from full knowledge. I'd like to be speaking from full knowledge, but
01:20:02 to be speaking from full knowledge, but um yeah, I think governments need to have more faith in the population that we're not just all going to go and riot and and commit crime if we actually are told the truth rather than be treated like children, you know, to be kept in
01:20:15 like children, you know, to be kept in just only a bit of information is to be This is a debate I would be delighted to conduct with you, but not on this occasion, I'm afraid. [laughter] Yeah. Let's let everyone go home. Yes. Thank you. and you and thank you very
01:20:28 Thank you. and you and thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Uh we will resume tomorrow uh and uh the uh hearing will be uh mostly but not entirely open. [snorts]