Donna McLean provides evidence regarding a fabricated rent book found in an SDS filing cabinet and clarifies the nature of her trips to Cornwall with Dan Gilman and Carlo Saraki.
00:11:07 Thank you, sir. May I make a public announcement before we uh proceed? The remainder of this afternoon's proceedings are are going to be uh broadcast on the uh the web, but
00:11:18 be uh broadcast on the uh the web, but only with voice only. Uh they will be broadcast 10 minutes after the event that's being described. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but
00:11:29 what they hear in the hearing room, but not to use them for recording or photography. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Um, Donna, this morning we um were looking at a document which
00:11:40 we um were looking at a document which you hadn't seen before and I just want to ask you some questions about that now. [laughter] Okay.
00:11:45 Okay. Um, it's MPS0527068
00:11:49 and if we could have that up please. There it is. Um the context is that this document came to the inquiry from the SDS an SDS filing cabinet. So it came
00:12:00 SDS an SDS filing cabinet. So it came from the SDS itself. Um you hadn't seen it this morning when I asked about it. No.
00:12:06 No. Um for which I apologize and profusely. You should have done. I'm very sorry about that. Um you've now seen it. Yes.
00:12:13 Yes. Um you've seen it today. You've had a little bit of time to look at it um with me and your representatives. Um, had you um ever seen it before
00:12:24 Um, had you um ever seen it before today?
00:12:25 today? I've never set eyes on this before. Never.
00:12:28 Never. Never.
00:12:29 Never. Are you absolutely sure about that? Absolutely certain. On the first page, we can see that it's uh labeled a rent book. The title is rent book. We see about halfway down
00:12:42 rent book. We see about halfway down tenant Carlo Ner. The date of the tenency,
00:12:47 tenency, 30th of January. It's a little hard to read, but um you could take it from me that it that says 2003. Um and under rent collector, there's a privacy
00:12:59 rent collector, there's a privacy redaction which is your landlord's name and your name, Ms. D. McClean, also appears next to that redaction as rent collector. Do you see that? I do. Um
00:13:13 I do. Um and you've seen under the privacy reduction in relation to rent collector um today. Can you confirm without naming them that that was in fact the name of
00:13:24 them that that was in fact the name of your landlord? Albeit it may well have been spelled wrong. It was spelled wrong but it was my landlord. Yeah. Thank you.
00:13:32 Um if we go down um scroll down through this document please. Um so the next page um there are the privacy redactions but there you can see
00:13:45 privacy redactions but there you can see the address of the premises. Um and that's your address in Mavale. Yeah.
00:13:52 Yeah. If we keep scrolling down please some small print that's a bit fuzzy now but if we keep scrolling down to page six please.
00:14:02 please. You've seen under these um redactions in relation to the handwritten initials DMC. Those are your initials. D MCL Donna McClean. Is that right?
00:14:13 Donna McClean. Is that right? That's right. You've seen under the um redaction though. Um was that um signature of those initials your signature? No.
00:14:24 No. Not your handwriting. Not your signature. I never I didn't sign any document and I've never set eyes on this before today.
00:14:32 today. Um you didn't I think Pardon? You didn't write it. Oh, no. No. Absolutely not. Um we see um a list of dates if you can see at the top 3103
00:14:45 see at the top 3103 next to it 685 uh and the word deposit. Um and then monthly after that
00:14:56 Um and then monthly after that January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, and over the page please to page seven.
00:15:07 from January down to October. Do you see that? I do.
00:15:12 I do. And again in the right on the right hand side various um notations of your handwritten initials and indeed the handwritten initials of your landlord. Yes.
00:15:23 Yes. And you've seen underneath that the redaction for the handwritten initials of your landlord. And again without naming him or his initials um were those the initials of your landlord? They
00:15:34 the initials of your landlord? They were.
00:15:35 were. Um, had Mr. Ner ever u met your landlord?
00:15:40 landlord? I'd never met my landlord. He lived in America.
00:15:43 America. Was he living in America during this period of time when the entire period I lived in midfield? So, as far as you're concerned, those aren't his real signature of his
00:15:54 aren't his real signature of his initials.
00:15:55 initials. Absolutely not. on this document. Um
00:16:09 um and in terms of when um Carlos Saraki moved out of your flat um he moved out
00:16:20 moved out of your flat um he moved out in May or June 2003. Is that right?
00:16:28 No, 2004.
00:16:31 2004. Sorry, I had to think bit. No, it was the following year. It was the following year. So, this perhaps isn't complete because it only goes up to October 2003. Yeah. But it does record rent of six a
00:16:44 Yeah. But it does record rent of six a deposit initially in January 03 and then a uh monthly payment of £685 per month of rent. How much was the
00:16:56 per month of rent. How much was the monthly rent on your flat? It was £320 a month. £320 a month. So not 685. No.
00:17:04 No. Um and how did you pay that rent? I paid it through my bank account to my landlord who lived in America directly.
00:17:11 directly. Yeah.
00:17:12 Yeah. Um when he moved in to your flat um did Mr. Saraki pay a deposit to you or tell you that he paid one to your
00:17:23 or tell you that he paid one to your landlord?
00:17:24 landlord? No, I never paid a deposit to my landlord either. If we just look at page eight, please.
00:17:33 So when we see there um
00:17:38 um the rent £685, the deposit £685 one month. He never paid that deposit. No. And
00:17:49 No. And no one paid a deposit. There was no deposit.
00:17:51 deposit. And did he pay you £685 or a proportion of that for rent for living in your flat? He gave me some money towards bills every month in cash.
00:18:03 money towards bills every month in cash. Um the rent was 320 that I paid and then he gave me a bit of cash every month for bills. It was variable. It would have been could have been 150 quid, could have been 200 quid depending. Um he
00:18:17 have been 200 quid depending. Um he didn't pay me anything directly for rent. I paid the rent myself. And when he gave you cash for bills, was that on a particular day of the month or just ad hoc? No, it was very ad hoc. And it depended on how much money he had at
00:18:29 it depended on how much money he had at the time because he always gave me cash and it depended on how much work he'd done. That was cash work. Okay. And what type of bills? Well, there would have been
00:18:41 Well, there would have been the gas, electricity, the phone bill because we had a landline at that point. He was on the um electoral register. So, we had council tax. So, it was kind of
00:18:52 we had council tax. So, it was kind of like the basic stuff. And in terms of Yeah, we
00:18:57 Yeah, we say we had internet as well. We did have internet as well. We did in those days. [snorts] And you talked this morning about him cooking. Um who paid for um grocery
00:19:08 cooking. Um who paid for um grocery bills, food, and he got quite a lot of food. So we'd go shopping um but he would bring food home and a lot of the food he brought home came via work after he changed jobs. So a lot of it was kind of through his his
00:19:21 a lot of it was kind of through his his actual dayto-day work. Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to say about this document? I think it's hilarious. It's so bad. It's I've actually issued teny
00:19:32 It's I've actually issued teny agreements because I used to work in hosts and I used to manage supported housing and it's I think when I saw it earlier it really has been it's just bizarre. It's so bizarre. But also I
00:19:45 bizarre. It's so bizarre. But also I think what struck me was I know where my presence came from now. Yes. [laughter] But but this is to the extent he's filled it in, this is a complete fabrication. Complete nonsense. And I think I don't
00:19:57 Complete nonsense. And I think I don't know if you can see it properly on this, but the way that he's tried to copy my signature, it's like every single DMCL is different and the D is different on and it's it's so bad. And I'm I mean I'm
00:20:08 and it's it's so bad. And I'm I mean I'm I'm kind of glad I'm smiling now because some of today's not been very smiley, but this is just it's ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. Thank you. as a document. I mean, I just
00:20:19 Thank you. as a document. I mean, I just I'm very glad whoever found it in the filing cabinet. Thank you because it's just
00:20:24 just Thank you. Um, sir, those are all the questions I I have for Donna on um this topic. If you could break briefly to deal with rule 10 and re-examination, we can come.
00:20:34 can come. We have a process which is always followed, which is that uh people who want to ask questions of you can put them to council to consider whether they should be asked of you. Okay. Thank you. But uh and then your
00:20:47 Okay. Thank you. But uh and then your council can re-examine. But I suspect we're almost finished. Okay. Thank you.
00:30:27 Yes, thank you sir. There's just one rule 10 question um and it's just a point of detail Donna about your trips to Cornwall with Mr. Gilman and his partner
00:30:39 Cornwall with Mr. Gilman and his partner and um just so you know this question I'm asked to ask on behalf of Mr. Gilman's representatives. Um, so you'd talked in your earlier evidence about um
00:30:50 talked in your earlier evidence about um taking two trips to Cornwall where Carlo Saraki drove. You went with Dan Gilman and his partner um and they were trips that were essentially a holiday. But
00:31:02 that were essentially a holiday. But were was part of the reason for those uh trips specifically because Mr. Gilman's partner's mother was terminally ill and dying at the time? Yeah, I just want to clarify. I didn't
00:31:14 Yeah, I just want to clarify. I didn't mention that because I wasn't I didn't want to see anything that was that Mr. Gilman didn't want you to say. I understand completely. It's why I didn't ask you about it, but um Mr.
00:31:25 didn't ask you about it, but um Mr. Gilman's representatives um would like me to. So that was at least part of the reason why that was the primary reason. Thank you. And would Mr. Saraki have known about that at
00:31:36 known about that at Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and I think Carlo made himself very um, available to people when they needed help. And because of that particular situation and the the geography of where
00:31:50 situation and the the geography of where Dan's partner's family member was, like I say, it's a huge distance and it's really it was really difficult to get to by public transport. They did not have a car. Carlo had a car. So, he offered he
00:32:01 car. Carlo had a car. So, he offered he offered to drive them and then it became a holiday as a secondary thing. So the primary thing was to support them and to visit his part Mr. Gilman's partner's mother.
00:32:13 his part Mr. Gilman's partner's mother. Absolutely. Yes.
00:32:14 Yes. I'm very grateful. Um sir, those are all the rule 10 questions. I'm told that there's no re-examination um by Donna's representatives. So that concludes um Donna's evidence today.
00:32:27 concludes um Donna's evidence today. Thank you. That's right, Mr. Gilroy. Yes.
00:32:31 Yes. May I thank you personally for coming to give evidence before a public inquiry. [snorts] I know that recent months have not been easy for you. Yeah.
00:32:42 Yeah. Um you've managed to give illuminating evidence about a period of your life which on any view in hindsight has been a very difficult one. I'm very grateful
00:32:54 a very difficult one. I'm very grateful to you for doing so. Um, as others who found themselves on the wrong end of relationships with undercover officers have found themselves in the evidence
00:33:06 have found themselves in the evidence they give, I there is no means other than hearing what you and they have to say to enable me to understand what
00:33:17 say to enable me to understand what happened and try to get to the reason why.
00:33:21 why. Thank you. I hope it's been helpful for you.
00:33:25 you. It has been immensely helpful to me and I can only express my admiration for the good humor with which you have fulfilled this difficult task. Thank you.
00:33:36 this difficult task. Thank you. Thank you. That concludes today's proceedings. We will resume uh tomorrow at 10 as usual with um Lindsay. Thank you, sir.