Donna McLean provides evidence regarding her intimate relationship with undercover officer Carlos Saraki (HN 104). She details their meeting, the rapid progression of their relationship, and disputes Saraki's witness statement regarding the nature of their cohabitation and sexual intimacy.
00:13:55 Good morning everybody. Um today's witness will be giving evidence in two phases. in the first of them. Uh the evidence will be public in the hearing room and she'll be able to be seen and
00:14:07 room and she'll be able to be seen and heard by everybody in the hearing room. Her evidence will be transmitted over the live link after a 10-minut gap, but only uh by uh voice and not
00:14:20 only uh by uh voice and not by vision. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room uh but may not use them to record or photograph and anything they
00:14:32 record or photograph and anything they report must uh be at least 10 minutes after the event that they're reporting. There will be a period this afternoon uh when evidence will be given in private
00:14:43 when evidence will be given in private and uh only a very limited number of people will be able to see and hear it. Thank you sir.
00:14:55 I do I do solemnly, sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth
00:15:07 shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing
00:15:14 please I understand you wish to be called Donna yes please and um may I make it clear to you that if at anytime you need a a pause or a break, all you need to do is ask and I will stop immediately.
00:15:25 will stop immediately. Thank you. Thank you, Donna. Um, you've given a witness statement to the inquiry. Um, sir, it's at UCPI5039712
00:15:37 behind tab A1 in the bundle. If that could be brought up on screen, please. Is that your witness statement? Yes, it is. And if we can go to page two, please.
00:15:48 And if we can go to page two, please. Um, there's a privacy redaction, but did you sign that statement on the 12th of February this year? I did.
00:15:54 I did. And is the contents of that statement true to the best of your knowledge and belief?
00:15:59 belief? Yes.
00:16:00 Yes. Um, sir, I asked that that stands as um Donna's evidence um to the inquiry. Donna, that um witness statement exhibits your book um that you authored called Smalltown Girl, written by you
00:16:13 called Smalltown Girl, written by you and published by Hodder Publishers in two 2023.
00:16:17 two 2023. Um sir, you have that at UCPI5039714
00:16:23 and that's at tab A2 of the bundle. I have the book. You have the [laughter] book. Thank you, sir. Yes. Um I have the hard copy also. Um uh and I in that you detail your
00:16:36 Um uh and I in that you detail your relationship with HN 104, Carlos Saraki, who you knew as Carlo Ner and you state um in your statement at paragraph 1.4 that that book the contents of that book
00:16:49 that that book the contents of that book is a is true uh although not exhaustive account of your relationship with Mr. Saraki. Is that right? Yes. So essentially you exhibit that book and that also stands as the
00:17:01 book and that also stands as the evidence of your account. Yes.
00:17:03 Yes. Um to the inquiry. Um at paragraph 1.6 of your statement you say I confirm that the details in the book are accurate to the best of my knowledge and recollection except what I set out
00:17:15 recollection except what I set out below. And then um I'll come to where you've made a correction in um due course. Um but at paragraph 1.5 of the statement you say there are some areas
00:17:26 statement you say there are some areas which I have not covered in the book um because they are confidential or distressing. I want to discuss these in a private hearing with only the chair and RLRs present and that's what the
00:17:37 and RLRs present and that's what the chair's referred to as happening this later on this afternoon. Yeah. Thank you. So again we'll come to those in due course.
00:17:45 course. Okay. Um, I'd first like to ask you a little bit of background um about you um and uh activism. Um would you have described yourself as an activist um in
00:17:57 described yourself as an activist um in the late 1990s or early 2000s? I wouldn't describe myself as an activist, but I was a trade union rep. So to that extent, my activism was really focused around my work. So I'd
00:18:09 really focused around my work. So I'd spent all of my adult life working in mental health, homelessness, and drug treatment. And I think my activism really focused on social justice and justice for people who were underserved.
00:18:21 justice for people who were underserved. So that that kind of took up my space and my time. Um but I did start to get involved with the anti-war demonstrations in early 2000s. So that
00:18:32 demonstrations in early 2000s. So that was kind of part of a trade union delegation as well. So you just breaking that down, you were a member of a trade union. Yeah.
00:18:39 Yeah. Were you also a trade union representative? Yeah, briefly. Yeah. And um were you a member at any time of any political party?
00:18:48 party? No. Oh, actually the Labour Party briefly and then I left. And and roughly when was that perhaps? That was um before I met Carlo. So the ' 90s prior to meeting Carlo.
00:19:01 So the ' 90s prior to meeting Carlo. Um would you have described yourself as a socialist? Yes. I grew up in a very very socialist family, a very working-class socialist family.
00:19:08 family. And you've described a little bit about what that meant to you. um social justice and it was very bound up and connected to your work I think you said and just explain [clears throat] a little bit more about that for us.
00:19:19 little bit more about that for us. So I started off working in mental health. I started nurse training in Scotland and then I moved to London and I became a specialist outreach worker.
00:19:30 I became a specialist outreach worker. Then I moved into hostiles homelessness and eventually I kind of settled in working in drug treatment and specialized in that. And during that period I also trained as a counselor and then became a manager. So I did a lot of
00:19:42 then became a manager. So I did a lot of studying over that time as well. So I was kind of really focused on my career. Um, were you ever a member of any activist groups at all? No.
00:19:52 No. And would you have described yourself as having been part of the extreme left-wing in London? No.
00:20:01 No. Uh,
00:20:03 Uh, let's talk a little bit about your friends and associates who Mr. Saraki came um in contact with and who came to report on during his deployment. I think you were very close friends with um Dan
00:20:15 you were very close friends with um Dan Gilman. Is that right? Yeah, Dan and I worked together for a couple of years and then Dan went off to be a teacher, but we kept in touch. So, we socialized quite a lot when we were at work. We worked together on a daily
00:20:26 at work. We worked together on a daily basis and then after he left, we kept in touch and still had social kind of friendship. and we've heard evidence from him in this inquiry and he's confirmed that he would have described you as a as a close friend at the time.
00:20:38 you as a as a close friend at the time. Um, how would you have described his activism at the time you knew him in the 1990s and 2000? I knew Dan was our trade union rep at work. Um, I knew he was very much
00:20:49 work. Um, I knew he was very much involved in anti-racist activism. Um, we talked about left-wing politics quite a lot at work, but I think in that environment as well, because of the kind of type of work we did in London at that
00:21:01 of type of work we did in London at that time, there was a general left slant to everybody who did the job. So, that was quite normal. So, I was aware of Dan's activism, it felt very comfortable to me and our our views were very much aligned
00:21:12 and our our views were very much aligned on that.
00:21:13 on that. Thank you. Uh, what about Joseph or Joe Batty who we've also heard from? I didn't know Joel quite as well, although I briefly met Joe long before I met Carlo because we worked in the same
00:21:24 Carlo because we worked in the same field as well. So, I met Joe on a training course some time before I met Carlo. Um, and again, our work crossed over so we might bump into each other
00:21:35 over so we might bump into each other and I was aware of his kind of left-wing politics and also the fact that he was a trade union rep. So, I think we were all very focused on kind of building up trade unions within the workplace. That would be a a commonality. and he's
00:21:47 would be a a commonality. and he's described in evidence your relationship as being sort of on the cusp between friends and acquaintances. Would you agree with that? Um, what about Steve Headley?
00:21:58 Um, what about Steve Headley? I met Steve through Carlo. So, I didn't know him prior to to Carlo and I think the first time I met Steve was on the the anti-war demonstration,
00:22:09 demonstration, I believe. So, I didn't know him as well, but I got to know him a little bit over the period that I was with Carlo. Thank you. Um I'm going to come to your meeting Carlos Saraki and the relationship that you had with him in a
00:22:21 relationship that you had with him in a moment but I just sticking with activism for the moment want to ask you a little bit about um activism um between you and and he once you once you'd met him.
00:22:32 and he once you once you'd met him. Yeah.
00:22:33 Yeah. Um
00:22:34 Um did you attend any demonstrations together with Mr. Saraki? Yes. The first time we were on a demonstration together I wasn't with him. I bumped into him. We then went on
00:22:47 him. I bumped into him. We then went on another demonstration together which was the second anti-war demonstration against the war in Iraq. That was February 2003, I think. And that was the the big one. Um so I went with them to
00:22:59 the big one. Um so I went with them to that and we were both stewards on that march.
00:23:03 march. And then the other demonstration I went to with them was September 2003 and that was the demonstration against the arms trade down at um Docklands.
00:23:14 trade down at um Docklands. Thank you. Um at uh page 125 of your book Smalltown Girl and in the UCPI document referenc
00:23:26 the UCPI document referenc 131. Um, you say that you went on a few counter demonstrations together against the BNP.
00:23:33 the BNP. Um, do you recall those now? They were, yeah, they were kind of outside of London. I think Brock springs to mind. Um, I think there might have been two or
00:23:44 I think there might have been two or three. I don't remember specifically the dates of those, though. It would have been in that first six months of the relationship. Somewhere kind of early 2003. And would you have gone on those type of demonstrations or those
00:23:55 type of demonstrations or those demonstrations in particular if you hadn't been with Mr. Saraki? Probably not those ones. I mean the big anti-war one definitely, but not probably not those ones. So were you going simply because you were with him? Was it his idea?
00:24:07 were with him? Was it his idea? Yeah, it was his idea. He wanted me to go with him. Did you ever go to um any meetings um or other events of of activist groups that he was involved in? um one or two I went to there's one I
00:24:19 um one or two I went to there's one I think I've detailed and it was above a shop
00:24:23 shop in White Chapel and it was kind of a a anti-fascist organizing meeting but generally he went to stuff like that on his own so I only remember I remember that one specifically I also went to I
00:24:36 that one specifically I also went to I think there was a meeting it was kind of a trade union based one above the tavern in Houston there were quite a few trade union high-profile people there. And were they open meetings or was it by
00:24:48 And were they open meetings or was it by invitation only? I think it was invitation only because that was focused on the RMT. So I I don't think anyone could have turned up. I think it was if you were part of a a circle, but that was very much the RMT
00:24:59 much the RMT and the anti-fascist one above the bookshop. Was that an open meeting or No. No. Well, actually, I'm saying it it may have been an open meeting, but someone was ejected from that meeting
00:25:10 someone was ejected from that meeting because they seemed to be suspicious. And again, why had you attended those meetings?
00:25:16 meetings? I went to that one specifically because Carlo was going to be away for a few days and he asked me to go with him and then we were going to go for food and then he was going to be away for a week. So, we were going to go there and then
00:25:27 So, we were going to go there and then go for curry as I remember it. Um, did you ever go to uh political events or meetings with Mr. Saraki? Did you go, for example, to any socialist
00:25:38 you go, for example, to any socialist party meetings? I went to one meeting in a house in North London. and it was someone's front room. Um, but that was the only time and it was just a kind of it was like a
00:25:49 it was just a kind of it was like a meeting but very casual in someone's house. Their children were there. And was that again with Mr. Saraki? Oh yeah. Yeah. And whose idea was it to attend that meeting?
00:25:59 meeting? That was his he wanted me to meet people. So and it was going to be quite casual.
00:26:03 casual. And would you have attended that meeting if you hadn't been with him? Probably not. No. I wouldn't have known any of those people. And and how did you find it? How interested were you?
00:26:14 interested were you? Um, I was interested. Uh, it wasn't something that I then sustained. It was just, you know, I think part of it was Carlo would invite me to go to lots of things with him that were very social,
00:26:26 things with him that were very social, but that were also based around specific kind of groups of people who were in the socialist party, but the social element was really why he asked me to go along with him.
00:26:36 with him. So, that was your focus, was it? The social element. I was interested in the politics, but it was more the kind of there were things that he went off and did that I wasn't invited to. So, I see. Thank you. Um, can we move then
00:26:48 I see. Thank you. Um, can we move then to your meeting, Mr. Saraki? And you've mentioned that it was uh on an anti-war demonstration um on the 28th of September 2002. Is that right?
00:27:00 September 2002. Is that right? A stop the war coalition organized. Yeah.
00:27:03 Yeah. Large demonstration in London. That's right. Um, how did you come to meet Mr. Saraki? I had originally gone along to meet friends of mine who were in my trade
00:27:15 friends of mine who were in my trade union and I couldn't find them because it was so busy. It was so big. So, I ended up kind of following a group of people and then I spotted Dan because Dan was wearing a high vest and I happened to spot Dan and then obviously
00:27:27 happened to spot Dan and then obviously I recognized Dan and a couple of the other people he was with. I recognized their faces and Carlo was with them. So that was how I met him on that day. And did you understand that Mr. Saraki
00:27:39 And did you understand that Mr. Saraki and Mr. Gilman were friends? Yes, I'd heard of Carlo before cuz a really good friend of mine at work who'd been to a few parties and had socialized outside of um work with Dan as well had
00:27:52 outside of um work with Dan as well had mentioned Carlo to me previously. Thank you. And sir, just for your reference, um, Donna deals with this at pages 57 to 59 of her book, which in the
00:28:03 pages 57 to 59 of her book, which in the epic version is pages 63 to 65. Um, in your witness statement, um, you uh, detail a correction you'd like to
00:28:15 uh, detail a correction you'd like to make about that first meeting, the first time that you met Mr. Sak and we you deal with that at paragraph 1.7 of your witness statement on page two and you say um in fact I first met Carlo when he
00:28:28 say um in fact I first met Carlo when he came to my flat in early 2002. I don't recall the exact month but it would have been roughly January or February as I remember that it was still winter. I was living in Maidale at the time with my ex
00:28:39 living in Maidale at the time with my ex of 12 years. We split up in July 2002. Um Carlo was with one of my friends Dan Gilman and they dropped off some packing boxes. Dan had borrowed. Is that right? Yes.
00:28:50 Yes. And so that was the first meeting. That was the very first meeting. So I met Carlo briefly when he came to the house because the I think the thing
00:29:01 house because the I think the thing that's come up time and time again is people had cars. So he had a car. So he was returning these huge packing boxes because Dan had moved house and I'd moved the previous year and um Carlo Dad
00:29:12 moved the previous year and um Carlo Dad was returning the the boxes that he'd he'd borrowed. So, I did remember Carlo from that date. Um, the reason it's not in the book is because it was taken out as an editorial decision.
00:29:25 as an editorial decision. It wasn't very exciting. They wanted a more exciting start, but that is when I met him. And I think it was probably about nine months before because I was still with my ex at that point. So, and I remember I was quite annoyed
00:29:37 So, and I remember I was quite annoyed because I want I'd just come in from the gym and I wanted to get have a bath and then have my dinner. And all these men were talking about boxing. That was my my thing. So I wasn't struck by Carlo at
00:29:48 my thing. So I wasn't struck by Carlo at that point. I just wanted him to stop talking about boxing and leave. So nothing came of that first no initial meeting with the packing boxes. And the meeting which um you then later
00:30:00 And the meeting which um you then later describe as the first meeting in your book, but was in fact the second time you'd met him was the one on the anti-war demonstration in September 2002. Is that right? Thank you. Um so
00:30:12 Um so you met him on that demonstration. um describe to me um how you interacted with Mr. Saraki on that day. Well, there was a big crowd of people and quite a lot of dance friends I'd met already and I knew Dan's partner and
00:30:25 already and I knew Dan's partner and they were all going so we kind of finished the march and then they were going for drinks so I just kind of went with them and we went to the pub. Carlos sat beside me and we started chatting
00:30:37 sat beside me and we started chatting and then we ended up chatting the whole time we were there. Then everyone went for dinner. We all went for dinner together. I sat at the same table as him and we chatted again. We seemed to get
00:30:48 and we chatted again. We seemed to get on really well. He claimed to not remember being in my flat before because I insisted that he'd met me before. [snorts] And he said he couldn't remember. He said, "I actually I honestly can't remember you," which I
00:30:59 honestly can't remember you," which I thought was a bit annoying at the time. But then he went on to say, "But my mother died, so my head's all over the place." So, of course, I thought, "Well, that's okay. Let's leave it. That's that's awful. I'm so sorry. Um, and that
00:31:12 that's awful. I'm so sorry. Um, and that was his rationale for not remembering the first time he met me. And how did So you you went to the pub for drinks with a group and then to dinner?
00:31:21 dinner? Then to dinner. Yeah. Um, what happened after dinner between the two of you? We went to another bar with um I can't remember if it was one or two other people and then they drifted off and
00:31:32 people and then they drifted off and then by the end of the night, which would have been about midnight, we decided to go home together to my place. I knew he lived in Hackne. He said he lived in a shared flat in Hackne and I
00:31:43 lived in a shared flat in Hackne and I lived in Mville on my own at that point because I'd split up with my ex. So we went back to mine at that point that night. And was that the start of the intimate sexual relationship between the two of
00:31:54 sexual relationship between the two of you? Yeah. It was that night that you It was the first night we met slept together and had sex. And did he stay at the flat, your flat that night? He did. Yeah. Um how clear a recollection do you have
00:32:06 Um how clear a recollection do you have of that now? Not today. Are you sure that's when Yeah, I'm very clear that he I mean he stayed the next day. He went he went back to Hackne to get some clothes and stayed the next night as well. We spent the whole Sunday together. He stayed the
00:32:18 the whole Sunday together. He stayed the next night. He went to work on Monday. I went to work on Monday. But he was there all weekend. Um he uh says in his uh witness
00:32:29 Um he uh says in his uh witness statement, so for your reference, it's UCPI50355
00:32:35 Z at paragraph 179.2 on page 90. Uh he accepts that you met at that demonstration uh that uh you'd been
00:32:46 demonstration uh that uh you'd been introduced by Mr. Gilman, that he and Mr. Gilman had been stewards on uh that demonstration that afterwards you socialized in a pub and ended up back at
00:32:57 socialized in a pub and ended up back at uh your flat. Um he says for what he expected to be a one night stand and afterwards you continued to contact him. What's your reaction to that statement?
00:33:08 What's your reaction to that statement? He went to Hackne the next day to get some clothes to stay the next night. So it's blatantly untrue. Um, at paragraph 23.3
00:33:19 Um, at paragraph 23.3 at page 97 of his witness statement, he says he doesn't remember if you had sex on the night that you met after the anti-war demonstration, and he thinks you'd both been drinking heavily. Um,
00:33:31 you'd both been drinking heavily. Um, what's your reaction to that statement? We'd had a few drinks, but we had a huge meal in the middle and it was a very social day. And when we first got together with the crowd of people, it was a demonstration. People were there
00:33:42 was a demonstration. People were there with their children. It was a very social thing. We weren't that drunk. We We'd had food. We We made a conscious decision to stay together that night. So, I'm surprised he doesn't remember it.
00:33:53 it. And so, you would say his vague denial? I think his account is wrong. Um, and you're sure that you started the sexual relationship on that night? I'm very sure because we had a
00:34:04 I'm very sure because we had a conversation. We had a a clear conversation about it about where we'd both been in relationships, which relationships we'd been in, and we also had a conversation about contraception. So it was it's not fuzzy at all.
00:34:17 So it was it's not fuzzy at all. Thank you. Um at that time in that after that initial meeting and on that night and in the days thereafter, what was your motivation for entering into the
00:34:28 your motivation for entering into the relationship with him? I really liked him. We got on really really well. And I think I'd just come out of a 12-year relationship. I had no
00:34:39 out of a 12-year relationship. I had no expectation that I would meet someone I really liked either ever or so I mean when I say ever at that point you know 12 year relationship is a long thing that was someone I've been with since I was at school and it was devastating
00:34:51 was at school and it was devastating when that ended but I think you know when I met Carlo I was just surprised I was this this is you know he's just landed here and we get on so well we we agreed on so much we liked talking about
00:35:03 agreed on so much we liked talking about the same things he was very family orientated we liked music we liked films homes and it just felt that he was right. Felt like we were right together in a way that
00:35:16 in a way that was surprising but I also didn't question it. I trusted it. He described his expectation being a one night stand. Was that your expectation? No, not at all. What was your expectation? my
00:35:28 What was your expectation? my expectation because of the way in which we got together very quickly and then he kind of stayed and went back for clothes and then came back and he was he was basically there every night. Um I spent
00:35:39 basically there every night. Um I spent one night in the flat in Hackne and then he was he was at mine. We went out every night or we he cooked dinner for me. He went to work in the day, I went to work in the day and every evening and weekend
00:35:50 in the day and every evening and weekend we spent together. So my expectation was that this was a very um quick but very very solid and very grounded relationship because he seemed like a very grounded person. He seemed like a
00:36:01 very grounded person. He seemed like a very
00:36:03 very loving and caring and generous person and also because he fitted in so easily with my circle, you know, my family circle, my friendship circle, my work
00:36:14 circle, my friendship circle, my work circle. And that almost felt so comfortable that it just felt okay. It felt right. Yes, thank you. We'll come to some of those details in a moment, but just sticking with motivation for
00:36:25 but just sticking with motivation for for a moment. Um, what he says about his motivation at paragraph 206, page 98 of his statement, sir, for your reference, was the motivation for starting a
00:36:37 was the motivation for starting a relationship with Donna McClean was that it was shortly after the death of my mother and I was at a low and not thinking very clearly at the time. I sort of fell into it with Donna. She was a nice person. She was not a political
00:36:49 a nice person. She was not a political activist as far as I knew and she provided me with a bit of solace at a time when I needed it. What's your reaction to that statement? Well, I'm very grateful he says I'm a nice person, but um I think I think
00:37:01 nice person, but um I think I think that's a it's a very blood a very blurred response to what happened because it's very very obvious to me that I was targeted because of the friendships I had. If I hadn't been
00:37:12 friendships I had. If I hadn't been friends with Dan Gilman, I doubt I would have we would be sitting here having this conversation right now. I was definitely targeted because of my proximity to Dan and to other people. I
00:37:23 proximity to Dan and to other people. I think although I wasn't an activist and people wouldn't call me an activist, I was moving comfortably in circles with activists. I was very comfortably part of a trade union. I always had been since I'd left school. And I think that
00:37:36 since I'd left school. And I think that made me a trusted person. I think that anywhere we went, if I was with him, he had credibility. No one questioned the gaps in his story or the gaps in his his
00:37:48 gaps in his story or the gaps in his his kind of um circle because I was there and although I wasn't an activist, people trusted me and also through work because I knew other people through work in that kind of wider group.
00:38:00 in that kind of wider group. Yes. Thank you. So his explanation is is untrue.
00:38:05 untrue. Yeah. Um, it it may be obvious, um, but just so that I've made sure to ask the question, would you have ever entered into a relationship with him if you knew he was an undercover police officer?
00:38:16 he was an undercover police officer? Categorically not.
00:38:20 Um he says about that at paragraph 221 at pages 103 to 104 of his witness statement. Um I accept that it's unlikely Donna McClean would have had an
00:38:31 unlikely Donna McClean would have had an intimate relationship with me had she known I was a police officer. That was not something I thought about at the time and I'd just like to get your reaction to that statement please. I think he thought very hard about it at
00:38:42 I think he thought very hard about it at the time. That was his whole purpose for being there was as an undercover police officer. So he knew that he was he knew that he was deceiving me in a in an incredibly intimate way and the the
00:38:54 incredibly intimate way and the the entirety of it was because he was an undercover police officer and I think one it was political because he was targeting friends of mine and I also think it was a perk of the job. I think they saw it as perk of the job. So it
00:39:05 they saw it as perk of the job. So it would you know the perk of the job wouldn't have happened if he hadn't have been targeting people in my circle but both came together and that's why it happened.
00:39:14 happened. Yes. Thank you. Um can you describe a little bit how the rel relationship progressed then between you after those that initial meeting and those initial few days? Um how did he act towards you?
00:39:26 few days? Um how did he act towards you? He acted very loving and caring and it was very easy. He was extremely helpful. You know he cooked. He cooked
00:39:37 helpful. You know he cooked. He cooked every night. We either went for dinner or he cooked. He loved cooking. I didn't have to do any of it. Um he went to work every day. I went to work every day and when I got home he made dinner. We spent
00:39:48 when I got home he made dinner. We spent the weekends quite often meeting people or we go and see films or we go to concerts and it it sounds strange to say it progressed very quickly but also it was very
00:40:00 very quickly but also it was very comfortable. It didn't actually feel that there was any sort of question over it because we were just sort of living our lives and getting on so well and he loved my friends. And then we went to Scotland quite quickly to meet my family
00:40:13 Scotland quite quickly to meet my family and it seemed to fall into place and then he he kind of he he was living there anyway, but then officially moved in. And when I say he officially moved
00:40:24 in. And when I say he officially moved in, he gave up the flat in Hackne, which he hadn't been staying in, and he moved all his stuff into mine. Thank you. I'll come to that in in more detail in just a moment, but just in those initial few
00:40:35 moment, but just in those initial few weeks when you were spending time together, you said he was very warm and and kind and caring. Did he tell you that he loved you? Yes.
00:40:43 Yes. Um, how often? Every day. Um, how did you feel about the relationship at that time? I felt it was going to last forever at that time. I felt this this was going to
00:40:55 that time. I felt this this was going to be a a solid relationship and it would be my my life. it would be my life partner.
00:41:00 partner. And how did you feel about him? I loved him. Um, so far as you were concerned, was this a monogous relationship? It was. Yeah, we had that discussion. Um, what did the discussion entail?
00:41:13 Um, what did the discussion entail? It was Carlo raised the issue of monogamy very quickly within the first weekend. He said that he believed in monogamy. He said that he wanted to double check that was my belief just to
00:41:26 double check that was my belief just to make sure we were on the same page. I said that was the case. He told me he'd been single for a few months. He'd been in a relationship for about nine months prior to that. Um, but he fundamentally
00:41:37 prior to that. Um, but he fundamentally believed in monogamy and we both agreed on that.
00:41:40 on that. And did you see this as a long-term committed relationship? Yes.
00:41:44 Yes. Um, even at that very early stage in the months after you met in the autumn of 2002.
00:41:50 2002. Yes.
00:41:53 Yes. uh you've touched upon this, but can I just ask for a little bit more detail about how much time you spent together after that first meeting at the end of September in 2002 in those next months
00:42:05 September in 2002 in those next months through the autumn? Initially, he was there all the time. So when I say all the time, he went to work every day. So he left before me. He went he kind of went off about 7:30, 8:00 in
00:42:17 he kind of went off about 7:30, 8:00 in the morning. I left a little bit later and then he would be home about 5:30. Um, so apart from our work day, he was there pretty much every evening and
00:42:28 there pretty much every evening and pretty much every weekend. He went off and did things with other people. He would see friends, but he always kind of came back and stayed there. And that was really through until until Christmas.
00:42:39 really through until until Christmas. Thank you. When he went back to well, he said he was going back to Italy. um what he says um about this period of time uh and sir it's at paragraph 203.4
00:42:50 time uh and sir it's at paragraph 203.4 at page 97 of his witness statement um he says that you did not spend almost every day and night with each other. What's your reaction to that? It's not true. It was only the daytime
00:43:01 It's not true. It was only the daytime that we weren't together because we were both at work. And in terms of what you did together, um you've mentioned him cooking dinner for you. Did you socialize together as a couple? Yeah, we socialized a lot and we
00:43:13 couple? Yeah, we socialized a lot and we socialized with people from different groups. So, we'd socialized with, you know, kind of joint friends like Dan and Dan's partner. We'd socialized with my friends from work. Um, we'd socialized
00:43:24 friends from work. Um, we'd socialized with some people that he knew. We might go, we went to football, someone that he knew. We went to a lot of concerts. Um, we met up with old friends of mine in London, sort of old friends from
00:43:35 London, sort of old friends from Scotland, old friends from previous jobs. We had people around for dinner a lot and he cooked. So, it was incredibly sociable and I really liked that. I
00:43:46 sociable and I really liked that. I liked how sociable he was and I liked how welcoming he was. I liked the fact that he kind of embraced all the parts of my life. It felt quite different. I hadn't had that relationship with my
00:43:58 hadn't had that relationship with my previous partner who was much more focused on our life and not the other bits of my life. But Carlo really welcomed people and I liked that. Um you've mentioned um him staying at
00:44:11 Um you've mentioned um him staying at your flat. H how much time did he um spend at your flat and how often did he stay overnight at your flat during that period of time? All the time pretty much all the time.
00:44:23 All the time pretty much all the time. So I had one night in Hackne before he that was kind of I think maybe about a week after we'd met and then apart from that it was always always made avail. Um what he says about that
00:44:35 made avail. Um what he says about that at paragraph 212 page 99 of his witness statement is I did stay at Donna's home in Maidale on occasions after our relationship started and in January 2003
00:44:46 relationship started and in January 2003 I did move in with her. Um do you have any comment on that statement? He moved in before Christmas. So it would have been I think I've said six weeks. It may have been eight weeks
00:44:57 six weeks. It may have been eight weeks when he kind of moved all his belongings in. But he was there the whole time. And the first time there was any gap was was Christmas. He went to Italy or so he told me.
00:45:07 told me. So you disagree with his characterization of him staying at your home on occasion. It wasn't on occasion. He was there all the time.
00:45:15 the time. Thank you. Um it's a delicate topic, but how often were you having sex? Every day. Um did he use contraception? No. No.
00:45:27 No. No. Um did you have a conversation about that? Yeah, we I was on the pill. Um I'd been in a long relationship, but the first day that we met, when we left the
00:45:38 first day that we met, when we left the second bar, we went to go and buy condoms, which was was seemed sensible. The shop didn't have any condoms. We had a conversation at that point about monogamy, about the relationships we'd
00:45:49 monogamy, about the relationships we'd been in. He said he'd had a he'd been single for a while. I knew that I'd come out of the 12-year relationship and we made a decision at that point to just ignore the fact that we didn't have
00:46:00 ignore the fact that we didn't have condoms then and then we never used them at all because I was on the pill. He says he did use contraception. So it's paragraph 179.4 page 91 of his statement. What do you say about that?
00:46:11 statement. What do you say about that? That's categorically not true. It's a lie. It's a lie. Yeah. Um in your book you mentioned that he was very generous and he gave you a number of gifts. Yeah.
00:46:24 number of gifts. Yeah. What sort of things did he give you? Um, he bought me jewelry. He bought me earrings. He bought me a necklace. He bought nice things for the kitchen. Um, he also he also um bought flooring
00:46:36 Um, he also he also um bought flooring and laid flooring for the flat and bought blinds and put the blinds up. So, he did kind of it was sort of practical generosity as well. He brought home lots of really nice food, nice drinks. Um he
00:46:49 of really nice food, nice drinks. Um he bought me some books, long books. Um so there was a kind of whole combination of things and later on when he so he changed job and then started to travel but that was afterwards and then the
00:47:01 but that was afterwards and then the gifts kind of continued. So nice sunglasses, designer sunglasses. Um a really nice Elie coffee set because I told him that I'd seen one in Paris years before that I wanted and he got me
00:47:13 years before that I wanted and he got me this kind of it's um like an artist's original coffee set. So demonstrably thoughtful. Very generous. Yeah. And very and very thoughtful because that's very specific. That's not a kind of generic gift.
00:47:25 That's not a kind of generic gift. That's something that I he knew I would love. And in your book, um, at page 108, um, epic, page 114, sir, you mention an art deco dressing table.
00:47:37 art deco dressing table. Yeah, that was a surprise gift. I that's that's a bit of a mystery because I got home from work one day and there was this huge kind of, you know, it's was walnut and it was massive. It's a kind of 19 20s dressing table with a stool
00:47:51 of 19 20s dressing table with a stool and one of like three mirrors and it was just there in the bedroom. And I said, "Where's this come from?" Somebody's like, "Oh, someone was getting rid of it on a" and I said, "But how did you get it here?" Cuz he had an estate car. I
00:48:03 it here?" Cuz he had an estate car. I said, "How did you manage? You can't fit that in an estate car." And he said, "Oh, some fella let me, you know, I borrowed a van with this fella." And I was, "That's just a bit weird." I never really quite got to the bottom of where
00:48:14 really quite got to the bottom of where that dressing table came from. Thank you. Um I I'll come to the details of the different um trips and holidays that you took together in due course, but is it right that within the first six weeks
00:48:27 it right that within the first six weeks to to couple of months of your relationship, you went away together several times? Yeah.
00:48:32 Yeah. Um to Scotland and Cornwall, for example. Is that right? Um as I said, I'll come to to those in a trips in a moment. But can we look at the moving in together [snorts] in your flat? Um, first of all, um, you say he
00:48:45 flat? Um, first of all, um, you say he formally moved into your flat in Mavale before Christmas in 200. Definitely before Christmas. Yeah. Um, when did you start talking about moving in formally together?
00:48:57 moving in formally together? Well, as I say, he was there all the time anyway. And then when we were on a trip to Scotland, we got a cab back from a gig we'd been to. We were staying at
00:49:08 a gig we'd been to. We were staying at my mom's house and he started crying in the cab and then told me he had to tell me something which obviously kind of alerted my senses but he said he had to
00:49:20 alerted my senses but he said he had to tell me that he had a child that he hadn't told me about and then he told me the story of his child who he'd been estranged from and he wanted me to know this because our relationship was becoming very serious. And at that point
00:49:33 becoming very serious. And at that point during the course of that night and that conversation, I said, you know, I'm, you know, I'm so glad. And he said, I want you to I just want you to know this because we're so serious and I want to be able to tell my
00:49:44 serious and I want to be able to tell my friends and I want to be able to put pictures of him up on the bookcase, which was the bookcase in Mville. And at that point, we had a conversation about him just moving in. And I think I said,
00:49:55 him just moving in. And I think I said, "There's no point in you staying in that flat in Hackne because you don't live there. You're never there. What's the point in paying for somewhere that you don't live?" And that was it really. So that was that that trip to Scotland. And can can we just um try to pinpoint
00:50:07 And can can we just um try to pinpoint roughly the the date of that? Um how many trips did you make to Scotland prior to Christmas? Before Christmas to And was it the first or second trip when you had this conversation?
00:50:18 you had this conversation? It was the second trip. Thank you. Um and then you had that conversation then. How quickly after that conversation did he? It was during the week when we went back. So that would have been in
00:50:30 back. So that would have been in December also 2002. Yeah, late November or early December I think. I don't quite have the I know it was before Christmas, but it was several weeks before Christmas because obviously he went away
00:50:41 Christmas because obviously he went away for Christmas. And before he went, he'd bought a huge Christmas tree, a real Christmas tree, and he insisted that we had to have this Christmas tree. And I'd never had a real Christmas tree before, but he was absolute about it. So that
00:50:53 but he was absolute about it. So that was there for a few weeks before he went off for Christmas. So, thank you. Um, in your book at page 177, um, the epic page 183, you say that he
00:51:07 um, the epic page 183, you say that he moved in with you after around just, um, six weeks. But if you talked about moving in together during that trip in December 2002 to Scotland and you'd met
00:51:19 December 2002 to Scotland and you'd met properly um on the 28th of September 2002,
00:51:24 2002, that would from my rudimentary math make it more like eight or nine weeks after you met. Is that your best recollection now?
00:51:32 now? I think yeah, I think that's probably right. I think the the slight vagueness on my part is because he was there all the time anyway. But in terms of the actual leaving Hackne, that would be correct.
00:51:42 correct. Thank you. Um, and Carlo Saraki's name was added to the teny agreement for your property at the end of January 2003. Is that right?
00:51:53 that right? I didn't have a tenency agreement. Um, maybe we're talking the rent book. His name was put on. There was no rent book either. [laughter] Okay. Maybe we can just look at the Oh, he went on the um electoral
00:52:04 Oh, he went on the um electoral register.
00:52:05 register. Um can can we bring up um MPS0527068,
00:52:10 please? Um this uh isn't in Donna's bundle, but is in um Mrs. Saraki's bundle.
00:52:20 bundle. I've not seen this before.
00:52:30 It may not matter but it it's a document which dates him on um the rental agreement for the for the property. Um he deals with it at paragraph 212.1 page
00:52:42 he deals with it at paragraph 212.1 page 99 of his
00:52:43 99 of his apologies. Can I see that on my screen? Do you have that? We can see if it can be brought up because I've never actually seen this document.
00:52:52 document. If not we can deal with it in the brain. Okay, that's fine. I'm just curious. I'm just um I'm just really after the date. It's dated the 30th of January, 2003.
00:53:03 2003. Okay.
00:53:05 Okay. And I'm just um looking to get your understanding of when there was a formal record of him being um living at your property.
00:53:15 property. There was no formal record other than the fact that he went onto the electoral register. And I don't know when I did that. I know we discussed it and it probably it might have been January that
00:53:26 probably it might have been January that that happened but there was no rent book. There was never a rent book. So I paid rent directly to someone who my flat was a sublet and it had been an agreed sublet with the housing association. The person who had the teny
00:53:38 association. The person who had the teny had gone to America for three years and I took over with their agreement but I didn't have a tenency agreement and there was no rent book of any kind and I certainly didn't have a rent book for Carlo.
00:53:48 Carlo. Okay, understood. Um we can we can bottom this out in a break. Okay. Um, can we move on to travel then? Yeah.
00:53:56 Yeah. So, you I think went on a number of different trips with Mr. Saraki during your relationship with him. Um, just so we have the record of where you deal
00:54:07 we have the record of where you deal with them in uh your book. They're at pages 23, 37, 75, 81, and 83, which on Epic will be 29, 43, 81, 87, and 89.
00:54:19 Epic will be 29, 43, 81, 87, and 89. answer for your note. Um, can we start first with Scotland? Yeah.
00:54:25 Yeah. So, you talked about making several trips to um, Scotland in the period up to uh, December 2002. So, very early on in your relationship. Um, when did you
00:54:36 in your relationship. Um, when did you first go to Scotland? We went very quickly for my fifth graduation. So, I can't remember the date now, but that would have been about a month later, a
00:54:47 would have been about a month later, a month after we met. Um, so I think it was early November 2002, would that? Yeah. Yeah, that sounds right. We met at the end of September. So that's page 83 of your book or um page 89 on
00:55:00 page 83 of your book or um page 89 on epic, sir. And you say you and Mr. Saraki attended your sister's graduation ceremony in Scotland. And was that also after a significant um family bereavement?
00:55:11 bereavement? Yeah, my grandad just died. So he um went with you on that occasion. um describe a little bit about um that trip and how he was with your family. [clears throat]
00:55:22 [clears throat] [snorts]
00:55:22 [snorts] Well, it was the first time he met my family and it was also the you know there was a a kind of a huge family bereavement to deal with. But it felt to
00:55:34 bereavement to deal with. But it felt to me like Carlo could manage that and he was keen to go and he wanted to meet everyone. He he'd already kind of spoken to people on the phone. He liked to sort of chat to people on the phone. So it was a big celebration. Um, and there was
00:55:46 was a big celebration. Um, and there was a meal and he met a lot of my old friends as well as my kind of extended family there. And then we stayed for a few days. There was a lot of stuff going on because my grand had just died and we
00:55:58 on because my grand had just died and we were looking to pick a headstone for her grave. So, and was he part of that conversation? Yeah. Yeah, he was there. He was there. Um, and he was part of that kind of
00:56:09 Um, and he was part of that kind of I think he was he was very very lovely to my mom. He really kind of looked after her and he wanted to make everyone feel comfortable. So, you know, while this was happening, he'd make sure that
00:56:21 this was happening, he'd make sure that people had food and people had drinks and he also kind of entertained and looked after the youngest person in the family at that time who was my uncle's
00:56:32 family at that time who was my uncle's stepgranddaughter who was three and he was brilliant with her and he took her off and read her stories and because you know we were having these kind of serious family conversations and he was making himself extremely useful in that
00:56:44 making himself extremely useful in that context. Um, but on that trip we met lots of people. So we met my my very best friend from primary school that I met on the first day when I was five. We went we met her and we met her family.
00:56:56 went we met her and we met her family. So he was really sort of embedded very quickly. But I think it's it's important to kind of note how much he he seemed at
00:57:07 to kind of note how much he he seemed at ease with that and how much other people felt at ease with him. So, did your family welcome him into the family as your long-term partner? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:57:19 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think they were, you know, they were quite taken aback that I'd met someone so quickly and at because obviously they'd known my my exartner that I was with 12 years really well.
00:57:30 that I was with 12 years really well. They were surprised, but the the level of kind of comfort and genuiness that Carlo showed just they were happy for you. They were ease with it. Yeah. They were h they were really happy. really
00:57:41 h they were really happy. really genuinely happy. Um, page 81 of your book and page 87 on the epic version. Sir, you mentioned that your mom bought him snow globes whenever he came to Scotland. So,
00:57:52 whenever he came to Scotland. So, he collected snow globes. So, when he moved in, he he brought a collection of snow globes from different places. So, when my mom went anywhere, she bought him one to add to his collection. So, he he already had a collection when he when
00:58:05 he already had a collection when he when he appeared. And so, he was being treated as part of your family. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Um, page 81 of your book, um, page 87, sir, on the epic version, you mention another trip where
00:58:18 version, you mention another trip where he he drove, uh, him and you, uh, up to Scotland to see a band called Stiff Little Fingers. Is that right? Um, and there were other London activists who
00:58:29 there were other London activists who went as well. Is that right? There were people from London who also had family in Scotland. Um, and I was a bit surprised that he wanted to go all the way to Scotland to
00:58:40 wanted to go all the way to Scotland to see them because we could have gone to see them in London. But one of the reasons that he said that we should go was that it would be really nice to see my family again because of the recent bereavement. So that's that's why the trip seemed it
00:58:53 So that's that's why the trip seemed it was like a kind of there was a double benefit to it. And so in terms of the rough date of that um what's your best recollection of when that was? So,
00:59:04 when that was? So, I think
00:59:06 I think three or four weeks after the graduation trip.
00:59:10 trip. So, would that still have been November 2002?
00:59:13 2002? Yeah.
00:59:13 Yeah. Thank you. And um did you and he stay with your mom again? Yeah, we stayed in in my mom's house. Uh
00:59:24 can we look at the trip please that you uh went on with him to Bologna in Italy? Yes. Yes.
00:59:31 Yes. Yes. So, you visit visited Italy together. Is that right? Who whose idea was that trip?
00:59:36 trip? He'd suggested a few times that we go to Italy. Um, and I think the date that we we went, it was Valentine's Day and it also coincided with what I believed to be his birthday because I thought his
00:59:47 be his birthday because I thought his birthday was the 12th of February. So, Valentine's was the 14th. He'd said he wanted to take me to Italy and that seemed like a good time. So, it was kind of like a it was a joint decision around the dates. The discussion around it had
01:00:01 the dates. The discussion around it had It didn't initially come from him and I'd never been to I'd never been to Italy, so I really wanted to go. Um, where did you stay? We stayed in a really nice hotel in the city center. It was quite posh hotel. It
01:00:14 city center. It was quite posh hotel. It was like a four-star hotel. It's the first time I'd ever had um room service in my life. Thank you. in in your book uh page 63 or 69 on epics uh you mentioned you stayed
01:00:27 69 on epics uh you mentioned you stayed in a five-star hotel as a treat for his birthday which you paid for. I paid for the hotel. Yeah. And it was either fourstar or five star. It may not matter. A nice hotel. It was really nice as a treat. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, you also mention
01:00:42 Yeah. Absolutely. Um, you also mention at page 59 of your book, page 65 on epic sir, that you went to Bologna central train station station where there had been a fascist bomb that killed 85
01:00:55 been a fascist bomb that killed 85 people in 1980. Um, is that right? Yeah.
01:00:59 Yeah. And whose idea was that? That was car everything we did there was Carlo's idea because he knew the place really well. So he was he was kind of like a tour guide as as he would be and
01:01:10 like a tour guide as as he would be and obviously he spoke Italian. So everywhere we went that was his decision. Um everywhere that we visited was his decision. He specifically wanted to go there and he specifically wanted to show me that plaque.
01:01:22 to show me that plaque. I see. Thank you. Um you mentioned that you didn't u meet his father though um at this time although he lived in Italy. Um did he live locally to Bologna? He
01:01:33 Um did he live locally to Bologna? He lived [snorts] as far as you understood. As far as I understood, he lived um outside Bologna, kind of outside Modina in a very rural place. So it would have been
01:01:45 place. So it would have been easy enough to visit. It would have been easy enough to get there. It was over an hour, but it would have been easy enough. And obviously Carlo drove all the time and was comfortable driving anywhere. Were you suspicious about not meeting his father?
01:01:56 his father? I was a bit cross by it actually. I was I think suspicious. He told me that there were significant problems within the family. Um, but I was keen to meet
01:02:07 the family. Um, but I was keen to meet his family regardless of the problems that were there. And I was a little bit cross that we'd got that close and didn't actually go and visit. And then he he sort of made excuses and said, you
01:02:18 he he sort of made excuses and said, you know, because of the difficult relationship and he didn't want me he didn't want to spoil our time. It was we were having such a lovely romantic time. He didn't want any kind of dampener on it. And you know, the family meeting
01:02:30 it. And you know, the family meeting would come at a later date. And what sort of things other than visiting the train station and seeing the plaque to the victims of the bombing, what what other sort of things
01:02:41 bombing, what what other sort of things did you do on that trip? We went to really nice restaurants. We went to kind of medieval buildings and tourist sites. We went just a a general
01:02:54 tourist sites. We went just a a general tourist tour of Bologna. He wanted to show me as much as he possibly could. Restaurants were a big part of it though. I remember that. So food was a theme. Food was a huge part of it. Yeah. Um you mentioned in your book at pages
01:03:07 Um you mentioned in your book at pages 138 to 139 uh epic pages 144 to 145 that you also went to a football match. Is that right? We did. Yeah. It was Bologna and I think
01:03:18 We did. Yeah. It was Bologna and I think it was Atlanta. If I'm wrong, someone can tell me. But it was kind of a local derby. Um, and it was very lively and very exciting. And again, all arranged by him. Oh, he arranged that. Yeah.
01:03:30 Oh, he arranged that. Yeah. And typical sorts of couple things to do together. Sightseeing, eating.
01:03:37 eating. Yeah.
01:03:37 Yeah. Having a a nice holiday together? Yeah, absolutely. Um, did you spend all of your time together on that trip? Yes.
01:03:45 Yes. Was he ever off on his own? No.
01:03:48 No. Um, how did he act towards you on that trip?
01:03:52 trip? He acted as he always did, very caring, very warm, very loving, very He seemed very happy to be there. He seemed very comfortable in that space. He seemed, as
01:04:03 comfortable in that space. He seemed, as I say, he seemed to know the city really really well because he had favorite restaurants and he had favorite bars and he, you know, he he kind of he would try to get me to speak Italian as well, just to test it because I I didn't speak
01:04:14 to test it because I I didn't speak Italian. Spoke a bit of French, didn't speak Italian, but he'd get me to kind of go and order things just to test it. Um, so it was quite it was fun as well. There was a kind of element of fun and humor to it all as well.
01:04:26 humor to it all as well. Thank you. I want to look at the trip to Whitby, please. Okay.
01:04:31 Okay. Um, so I think it this trip was in around March 2003. Is that right? That's right. So after the Bologna trip. Yes. Not [snorts] long after. It would only have been a few weeks actually.
01:04:45 only have been a few weeks actually. Um, so why were you in Whitby? It was my birthday.
01:04:51 birthday. So, we decided, my family obviously were coming from Scotland and we were coming from London, so we decided we'd meet there. And my family had a kind of favorite place to
01:05:03 family had a kind of favorite place to stay there, so we all stayed there together. It was a flat um just right by the harbor. And who from your family was there? My mom, my stepdad, my sister, and one
01:05:14 My mom, my stepdad, my sister, and one of my sister's best friends. And I think you mentioned in your book, it's page 75 or page 81 on Epic, um that your sister's friend was engaged to a
01:05:25 your sister's friend was engaged to a police officer. That's correct. And were they there? Not the police officer. No, just the friend.
01:05:30 friend. Just the friend. Yeah.
01:05:31 Yeah. Thank you. Um how was he generally on this trip? How did he behave? As always, generous. Um looking after people, in charge of the music, in charge of the drinks, very happy to do
01:05:43 charge of the drinks, very happy to do whatever everyone wanted to do. always very protective of people. Um, he got on really well with my mom, he got on really well with my stepdad, got on well
01:05:54 really well with my stepdad, got on well with my sister and her friend. So, it was it was just very sociable, but it was, you know, it was also very close-knit because we were all staying in one one flat together. So, six adults in one flat. Um, but it seemed very
01:06:07 in one flat. Um, but it seemed very comfortable. And how did he act towards you in particular um on this particular trip? Well, it was my birthday, so he was being as nice as always. Um, talking
01:06:18 being as nice as always. Um, talking about our relationship, talking about how serious it was. Um, he told my mom that he wanted us to have a baby. Um, she thought this was wonderful. He was very, very kind of open about saying
01:06:30 very, very kind of open about saying that he wanted me to get pregnant. What was your reaction to that? I was I was really happy that he wanted to have a baby, but I was not quite I I was worried about where we lived. I was
01:06:41 was worried about where we lived. I was worried about the temporariness of where we lived. So, I definitely wanted to have a baby, but not just quite then. I see.
01:06:48 see. I wanted to wait until I had I had that kind of level of life stability, not living in someone else's flat for a couple of years. And we were having conversations about at that point about
01:06:59 conversations about at that point about where we would live permanently. So, that was part of an ongoing conversation. I see. Thank you. Um and you mentioned that your mom was very happy um when he
01:07:11 that your mom was very happy um when he when he mentioned that. Was that your family's your whole family's reaction? Yeah.
01:07:16 Yeah. Um
01:07:18 Um Mr. Saraki denies that he had this conversation and encouraged you to have a baby in his witness statement. So it's paragraph 217 page 102
01:07:29 paragraph 217 page 102 uh for your reference where he says, "I'm told that Donna McClean claims that I encouraged her to have a child. I did not. I was with Donna for a period of approximately 14 months. I made it clear
01:07:40 approximately 14 months. I made it clear at that time that I was not interested in having any more children. I used the fact that in my cover story I had a son by my previous broken relationship as a reason for not wanting any more children. What's your reaction to that
01:07:52 children. What's your reaction to that statement? [snorts] Well, for starters, we were together for two years and two months, not 14 months. And secondly, that's not true. We talked constantly about having children and he
01:08:03 constantly about having children and he said he wanted to have three. So, you know, he's it's another lie. It's a lie. It's just a lie. And the thing is he tell he he's told lies, but he's told them in front of lots of people. You know, there are very
01:08:14 people. You know, there are very credible witnesses to to lies like that. My whole family were there. So, thank you. Um I think you mentioned in your book at page 77, page 83 on epic sir,
01:08:25 book at page 77, page 83 on epic sir, that you have um photographs of you together on this trip specifically, for example, in front of Whitby Abbey. Is that right? Yeah. Um, do you still have those?
01:08:36 Yeah. Um, do you still have those? [snorts]
01:08:36 [snorts] Um, I do somewhere. Yes, electronically I have them. There's quite a few p there's pictures of me and him and then there's pictures of him with the whole family. So, there's pictures of him with my mom and with the entire family group.
01:08:48 my mom and with the entire family group. So, he wasn't shy at getting in front of the camera. No, no, not at all. He was very much in the photos. If anything, I'm in less photos because I tended to be the one taking them, but he's in all of them.
01:08:59 taking them, but he's in all of them. Thank you. Um, can we look at trips to Cornwall?
01:09:02 Cornwall? Yes, please. Um after around [snorts] um six months in the relationship um you say at page 23 of your book page 29 on epics uh um so around six months into
01:09:15 epics uh um so around six months into the relationship you also went on a trip to Cornwall. So would that have been again around March April time in 2003? Yeah.
01:09:25 Yeah. Um tell me about that the the first trip to Cornwall. [snorts]
01:09:30 [snorts] The Cornwall was specifically a trip with Dan and his partner. Um because Carlo had a car and could drive, he offered to drive to Cornwall where they there was some family connections for
01:09:42 there was some family connections for Dan and his partner. Carlo was really happy to to kind of do the long drive and for us to have a weekend together. So it was a kind of you know social thing as well as a practical thing for them. Um, so we went for I think it was
01:09:56 them. Um, so we went for I think it was a long weekend and we all stayed in a hotel
01:10:00 hotel and I think you mentioned uh you went to Rick Stein's restaurant as well. We did. Yeah. So part another food theme. Oh, there was always food. Always food. Um, and again Carlo liked to kind of he
01:10:11 Um, and again Carlo liked to kind of he liked to book the food stuff. He liked to kind of decide the food stuff. Um, but that was yeah that was a bit of a treat. And then we also had, you know, Cornish pasties and different, you know,
01:10:22 Cornish pasties and different, you know, there was there was a lot of kind of different stuff that we could do while we were there. It was a bit of another kind of combined trip with touristy stuff.
01:10:30 stuff. So sightseeing as a couple with another couple.
01:10:33 couple. Yeah.
01:10:34 Yeah. A holiday. Yeah. A holiday. Um, in the in your book at page 23, like page 29 of the epic version, you say this was your second trip to Cornwall with Dan Gilman and his partner. Is that
01:10:47 with Dan Gilman and his partner. Is that your recollection now? I rec Yeah, I have a recollection of two different trips. Two separate trips. When was the first? The first one would have been Oh, earlier. It would have been early
01:10:58 Oh, earlier. It would have been early very early in that year. It wasn't in 2002, so it would have been early 2003. And was that trip of a similar nature? Exactly the same. Yeah, it was it was primarily Carlo was
01:11:12 apparently being very very kind in helping Dan and his partner to travel to Cornwall because it was quite a tricky journey and if he didn't have a car, it was a particularly tricky journey. So,
01:11:23 was a particularly tricky journey. So, he was offering to help basically and combining that with a holiday where I could go along as well. And then you all spent time together. Yeah.
01:11:32 Yeah. On both trips. On both trips. Yeah. Thank you. Um I want to ask you a little bit then you've you've you have touched on it. You said a little bit about it already but the level of intrusion you
01:11:44 already but the level of intrusion you [clears throat] feel that the level of of intrusion of of Mr. Saraki into your family life and your um life with your friends your social life. Yeah.
01:11:54 Yeah. Um
01:11:55 Um just describe to me how integrated you felt he'd become into your family. He was completely integrated. He would he would speak to people on the phone. He would speak to my family on the phone
01:12:08 He would speak to my family on the phone separately. He would suggest that we rang them. He was really good friends with a close friend of mine from work. She spent a lot of time with us. Sometimes she stayed over. Um
01:12:21 Sometimes she stayed over. Um every weekend we were with someone who was a close friend. In terms of my family, he he spent a lot of time with them within that first period of the relationship. And they loved him and
01:12:34 relationship. And they loved him and treated him as a member of the family. They bought him presents. They bought him Christmas presents. They bought him birthday presents. Snow globes. Snow globes. Yeah. Snow globes. And flowery shirts as well. My mom bought him a flowery shirt. Um, so I think the
01:12:49 him a flowery shirt. Um, so I think the level of intrusion is so complete because people and I'm talking about my family members and I'm also talking about close friends. They were sharing really intimate details of
01:13:01 were sharing really intimate details of their lives. They were talking about how they felt after bereavements. They were talking about, you know, friends talking about how they felt after a relationship breakup. They would cry
01:13:12 breakup. They would cry in front of him. He would comfort them. He would be there to comfort people when they needed help. And that I mean that to me is, you know, if if you're going to it's not just a social thing. It goes
01:13:24 to it's not just a social thing. It goes much deeper. It's a real emotional intimacy.
01:13:27 intimacy. Yes. And that that extends it extends around every single part of my life because you know friends in Scotland he stayed in their house. He stayed in my sister's house, my mom's house, my friend's house. He went to
01:13:39 house, my friend's house. He went to graduations. He was there when we talked about headstones. He that it was just it was he was completely in the middle of all of it. And I I think it's trying to
01:13:52 all of it. And I I think it's trying to explain how bizarre that is in this context is just it's really difficult because it's so so inshed and there's no understanding of why why
01:14:03 and there's no understanding of why why he needed to do that to all these people. There's no understanding at all. You mentioned particularly on the one visit to Scotland that he had looked after your uncle's um stepgranddaughter
01:14:14 after your uncle's um stepgranddaughter who was just three years old at the time and he took her off whilst the family had serious discussions about [snorts] the the nature of your the arrangements for your uh grandmother's funeral, the
01:14:26 for your uh grandmother's funeral, the headstone. Yeah. Things of that nature. So would he have been on his own with her?
01:14:30 her? He would have been on his own with her for a little while. Yeah. Certainly within that time. Um she shout I mean she called for him. She she loved him and she called for him to come and spend time with her. Um, he denies that he was ever left in
01:14:43 Um, he denies that he was ever left in charge of a child in the absence of their parent. It's paragraph 41, page 24 of his statement. Sir, what's your reaction to that? It's not true because I vividly remember I vividly remember her calling him and I
01:14:55 I vividly remember her calling him and I vividly remember that he brought a book for her as well and that he specifically brought a book that he thought she would like.
01:15:02 like. Thank you. Um, again, you you've touched on it somewhat in your answers just now, but um, for the avoidance of doubt, how do you feel now about his behavior and and [snorts] just how integrated he
01:15:14 and [snorts] just how integrated he became into your family life knowing what you know now that he was an undercover police officer? Well, in retrospect, I think it's incredible that he could do it, that he that this was
01:15:25 he could do it, that he that this was actually part of his work, that this level of intrusion and this this kind of complete disregard for any safeguarding of anybody or anything. I mean, there's so many layers. Um, I think everyone
01:15:37 so many layers. Um, I think everyone has, you know, the kind of the there's a ripple effect. Um, we, you know, we talk a lot about the impact on me because of the sexual relationship, but the actual emotional impact on
01:15:50 but the actual emotional impact on everyone else with all their with the trust and with the stories they've told and with the trauma they've shared, that has an emotional impact everywhere. So, this person in the middle who's who's
01:16:01 this person in the middle who's who's targeted me for a sexual relationship over a long period of time, he's affected all of these people hugely as well, and it still has a ripple effect now. what he says about this level of
01:16:13 now. what he says about this level of intrusion. Uh it's at paragraph 219.3 page 103 of his witness statement. Uh is I accept that coming into contact with Donna's family was to some extent
01:16:24 Donna's family was to some extent collateral intrusion. At the time I felt that there was very little if anything I could do about that to avoid risking compromising my cover. I was not in any way obtaining information or reporting
01:16:36 way obtaining information or reporting on them. So firstly, would you describe his behavior and how integrated he became into your family life as coming into contact with your family? No.
01:16:44 No. Um that's a complete minimization of it was he was embedded. He wasn't in in contact with he was completely in the family unit. And what's your reaction to what he says
01:16:55 And what's your reaction to what he says there about it being collateral intrusion? Well, I I think it's bizarre because actually I think he loved it. I think he enjoyed it. I think he got something from it.
01:17:07 from it. And I think to call it collateral intrusion, there's absolutely no need to be involved in my family life in this way. I mean, I I disagree entirely with the entire deployment and what he was
01:17:19 the entire deployment and what he was doing. But if he was doing it for a reason, I don't understand why that that was the consequence of his reason. It made no sense. There was no reporting. There was no necessity. He did not have
01:17:30 There was no necessity. He did not have to spend that amount of time. And I think, you know, probably lots of people in this room have been in relationships where the partners don't want to do everything that they want to do. So to spend that amount of time with your close family, it's not necessarily
01:17:43 close family, it's not necessarily essential to make a relationship look real. And I genuinely think he enjoyed that life. Yes,
01:17:49 Yes, a part of him enjoyed it. Whatever part that was, I don't know. And he obviously calls this collateral intrusion. It's a term that I really detest. I find it very, very offensive and very upsetting.
01:18:00 very, very offensive and very upsetting. Yeah,
01:18:01 Yeah, because there's a recognition there that you know [clears throat] you have done things to people very very much unnecessarily. Thank you. Um again you've touched on it but um what about um your friends and
01:18:14 but um what about um your friends and colleagues from work? Would would Mr. Saraki socialize with your friends or colleagues from work as well as other friends?
01:18:21 friends? Yeah.
01:18:22 Yeah. [clears throat] Um describe to me an example of that. Well, one of my obviously Dan and I had worked together, but then Dan left, but one of my other very close friends from work was someone that I would have spent
01:18:35 work was someone that I would have spent quite a lot of time with before Carlo and I got together and that just continued. So, we'd probably see her every single weekend. And quite often if we were out together or if she was
01:18:46 we were out together or if she was having dinner with us, she would stay because it meant she didn't have to go home late at night, so she'd just stay over. We had like a sofa bed in the living room and she'd stay over and then go the next day. but also he came along to work leaving dues and kind of other
01:18:59 to work leaving dues and kind of other people's birthdays. Work was quite a sociable thing. It was, you know, we had a really nice team and we spent a lot of time doing stuff outside of work as well. So, he would just come along and fit in really neatly. And I think out of
01:19:12 fit in really neatly. And I think out of my I kind I always describe I've got different friendship groups. So, the kind of old friendship groups and then work friendship group, but he also met several people from old jobs that I'd kept in touch with. So, he He made
01:19:25 kept in touch with. So, he He made himself very very available to all that part of my life. Thank you. Uh in terms of his relationships with activists then that you knew. Um we again you've touched
01:19:39 you knew. Um we again you've touched upon this you were close friends with Mr. Gilman and you believe he targeted you specifically because of that friendship. Is that still what you think now? I absolutely believe in fact I believe it now more than more than ever
01:19:50 believe it now more than more than ever after after hearing the evidence other people have given particularly Dan's evidence. I think that's the the entire nature of it and that's the case even though he apparently knew Mr. Gilman before you
01:20:02 apparently knew Mr. Gilman before you met properly on that march in September 2002.
01:20:05 2002. I was in a relationship until July though I became single in July. So that that timeline
01:20:14 Yeah. Um, and what was your impression of how close the friendship um was between Mr. Saraki and Mr. Gilman? [snorts]
01:20:22 [snorts] It was extremely close. I mean, the the very fact of Carlo driving people to Cornwall to help out, the fact that we spent so much time together, the fact
01:20:33 spent so much time together, the fact that we, you know, we went out for dinners that it was really, really close. They seemed and at the time I felt that Carlo's male friendships were admirable. I was impressed by them. I
01:20:46 admirable. I was impressed by them. I thought there was an emotional closeness that made me think this is this is a good kind of male role model because they were very close.
01:20:55 close. Yes.
01:20:56 Yes. Um
01:20:57 Um and does that apply also to Joe Batty? Very much so. They were very very close. They probably spent more time together when I wasn't there. They had particular
01:21:09 when I wasn't there. They had particular things that they went off and did that I wasn't I wasn't doing like going to sauna. I think is it sauna? Yes, we've heard some evidence from Mr. Patty about that.
01:21:16 that. I mean, we I would say that Carlo saw Joe at least twice a week. Um because they were they met every Saturday morning and then they they go to the sauna and then they'd have
01:21:27 to the sauna and then they'd have breakfast together. Um thank you. Um what about Steve Hedley? We probably I saw a bit of Steve, but at that point
01:21:38 I saw a bit of Steve, but at that point Steve had quite young children, so his circumstances were a bit different. Most of us didn't have any kids at that point. So, we might see Steve on occasion. There might be sort of a meal for a birthday or it was less intense as
01:21:52 for a birthday or it was less intense as a friendship and I I saw less of him. But Steve and I were kind of in touch with each other a little bit because of Carlo because Steve was studying. He was doing a mast's at the same time I was doing um a kind of postgrad for my drug
01:22:04 doing um a kind of postgrad for my drug and alcohol treatment work. So we chatted a bit about studying, going back to studying, but there was less I think there was less social stuff with Steve. Um, was there anyone else in particular
01:22:16 Um, was there anyone else in particular who you witnessed Mr. Saraki form very close friendships in terms of activists? Frank,
01:22:24 Frank, Frank Smith, anyone else other than that? In terms of closeness,
01:22:33 I'd say they were the closest. There were peripheral people, but they they were kind of the main people or the main people that I knew. Thank you. Uh I'd like to move on then to the end of 2002 and your relationship
01:22:47 to the end of 2002 and your relationship um with Mr. Saraki. How serious would you describe the relationship being at the very end of 2002? Well, at the very end of 2002, he'd gone
01:22:58 Well, at the very end of 2002, he'd gone supposedly back to Italy for Christmas. I went home to Scotland for Christmas and then we came back together for New Year which was the plan. We had a party in the flat in a veil. Um and it was it
01:23:12 in the flat in a veil. Um and it was it was very serious and it was very optimistic and very hopeful I'd say. So it felt like we were on track to kind of planning a life together.
01:23:23 planning a life together. um in your book and I'll just give all the references and then I'll ask you some details about it. Uh pages 40, 52, 88, 90 to 91, 95, and
01:23:38 Uh pages 40, 52, 88, 90 to 91, 95, and 207 sir, of Smalltown Girl, the epic version 46, 58, 94, 96 to 97,
01:23:49 version 46, 58, 94, 96 to 97, 101, and 213. Um, you say he proposed to you on New Year's Eve. A lot of references, [laughter] you talk about it's a significant event.
01:24:00 you talk about it's a significant event. You talk about it a bit in the book. Yeah.
01:24:02 Yeah. Um, you say he proposed to you on New Year's Eve in 2002. Is that right? He did. Yeah. Um, you say you'd had a party at your flat as you just mentioned. Um, how many people roughly were there?
01:24:14 people roughly were there? Oh gosh. About 20ish. It was Yeah, it was quite busy. It was a full room, so I'm going to say about 20ish. Um, whose idea was the party?
01:24:26 20ish. Um, whose idea was the party? It was Carlo's idea initially. I was completely behind it because I'm Scottish and we do Hugman and it sounded wonderful and because he was going to be
01:24:37 wonderful and because he was going to be away for Christmas and I was away for Christmas. It was such a nice kind of get together at that point. But it was it was his idea to have a party rather than just celebrate hug. And who invited everyone?
01:24:49 And who invited everyone? We both did. So he invited his friends and then I invited some people from work and they invited some kind of there were kind of there were a few people who didn't really have anywhere to go on New Year. So we invited a few people who
01:25:01 Year. So we invited a few people who didn't have anywhere to go as well. I see.
01:25:03 see. So they weren't even people that I knew particularly well but it was sort of a warm friendly thing. Um we we know from uh various of those references in the book and also from
01:25:15 references in the book and also from their evidence that Mr. Gilman, Mr. Batty and Mr. Hedley were there. Is that your recollection as well? I don't remember Steve being there, but Dan was definitely there and Joel was
01:25:26 Dan was definitely there and Joel was definitely there. Thank you. Um, so the proposal um, when did he propose?
01:25:36 I'm going to say around midnight because it also coincided with him saying, "Let's phone your mom." And I would have phoned my family at the stroke of midnight anyway. So, it was kind of after the party had happened, we' people
01:25:48 after the party had happened, we' people had been there. It was very kind of sociable and busy. There was lots of food and lots of drinks. And I specifically remember where we were cuz we were standing in the corner of the room where the bookcase was and we were
01:26:00 room where the bookcase was and we were there were a few people around, people kind of milling around. So, I'd say it was around midnight. And so, he didn't do it in private. He did it in a room with other people. No, the whole place was busy. So,
01:26:11 No, the whole place was busy. So, and how did he do it? He I recall him kind of going down on one knee which was a little bit awkward because he's very big. He's a very big person
01:26:23 person and he said, "Will you marry me?" And then he kind of got up quite quickly cuz it was also we were quite squashed. And then he picked me up. I was a little bit smaller then, so he picked me up quite
01:26:34 smaller then, so he picked me up quite easily. Um and I remember because I had a dress on and I remember it kind of swirling around a little bit. Um, and there were quite a few people just gathered around.
01:26:45 gathered around. And And do you recall the words he used? Did he say, "Will you marry?" Yeah. Yeah, he did exactly those words. Uh, and again, that was in front of um several people.
01:26:56 several people. Yeah.
01:26:57 Yeah. Do you recall who? [snorts] I can't I I can recall a couple of people, but I don't know. They're not core participants, so I don't know if I'm allowed to name them. Don't worry. Don't name them if if it becomes
01:27:09 becomes but I don't I don't know if they've got I don't think they have names on the list. We'll do it without names at the moment. But thank you. Um what was your reaction?
01:27:20 reaction? I was really happy. I thought this was wonderful. I thought this was it was kind of the next stage really wasn't it? Do you remember what you said? I said yes. I said yes. Of course I
01:27:31 I said yes. I said yes. Of course I will.
01:27:32 will. How did you feel? [snorts]
01:27:35 [snorts] I felt elated would be the word. Yeah, that would be my word. Uh, you said uh you rang your mom. Was
01:27:46 Uh, you said uh you rang your mom. Was that him or you? He said, "Let's ring your mom." Did he speak to her? Yeah.
01:27:53 Yeah. Um, I think the reference there is page 89 of the book, Epic, page 95. Um
01:28:02 Um several um other witnesses agree uh to the inquiry agree that um they knew either witnessed or knew about um you becoming engaged at New Year, Mr. Gilman
01:28:13 becoming engaged at New Year, Mr. Gilman and um Mr. Batty amongst them uh also Mr. Hedley. Um was um after this party was the engagement um common knowledge
01:28:24 was the engagement um common knowledge between your friends including um activists? Yeah, I mean some some people sent cards so it was very common knowledge and the friend from work that I've talked about who spent a lot of
01:28:36 I've talked about who spent a lot of time with us um she her and Carlo got on really really well and he said to her cuz he considered her to be my best friend at that time that they were going to choose a ring together and I said
01:28:48 to choose a ring together and I said don't I get to choose my own ring and he said that's not the traditional Italian way I choose the ring but my friend will she'll help me cuz she knows what you cake. So, we'll go shopping together.
01:29:00 cake. So, we'll go shopping together. Um, so friends and and um including activists knew, your family, particularly your mom and sister knew of the engagement.
01:29:11 the engagement. Um, Mr. Saraki denies that he proposed to you um both on that particular New Year's Eve and indeed at all. Um sir,
01:29:23 Year's Eve and indeed at all. Um sir, it's paragraph 216 at pages 101 to 102 of his witness statement. And he says, "I'm told that Donna McClean claims I proposed marriage to her at a New Year's Eve party. I have
01:29:36 to her at a New Year's Eve party. I have been referred to uh the transcript of her interview and she claims that this was when we had only known each other for two months. I do not accept that. I did not ever propose to her. Um, we were
01:29:48 did not ever propose to her. Um, we were not at the same location for New Year's Eve, um, 2002, because I was with my family following the death of my mother. We were together at the same location in 2003 at a New Year's Eve party, but I
01:30:01 2003 at a New Year's Eve party, but I did not propose to her. I may have spoken with some of Donna's immediate family at New Year because it was New Year. I did not do so to tell them about a marriage proposal.
01:30:12 a marriage proposal. Um, what's your general reaction to that statement? Well, it's factually wrong. We were together for that new year. We weren't together for the following new year. So you're sure um that you were
01:30:23 So you're sure um that you were together?
01:30:25 together? Absolutely. At New Year's Eve 2002. Absolutely. So um the 31st of December 2002 going into the 1st of January 2003. Yes.
01:30:33 Yes. And you'd known each other for a period of about 3 months by that point. Yeah.
01:30:37 Yeah. And you were not together in the new the following New Year's Eve? No. 2003 going into 2004? No, he was away. Um, and
01:30:49 Um, and he did propose to you. He did propose. And again, you know, he he he makes claims, but he did it in front of multiple people and then phoned my mom. So, it's
01:31:01 my mom. So, it's so both of those elements in that statement are not true. Yeah. Everything Everything in that statement of his is completely untrue. Thank the timeline is untrue on the actual event itself.
01:31:15 actual event itself. Um I want to just ask you one more thing about um in relation to this particular new easy party in 2002. Um at page 131 of your book um page 137
01:31:28 Um at page 131 of your book um page 137 of the epic version. Sir, you deal with uh Conrad Landon's story in the morning star that Carlos Saraki had tried to incite some of um his activists friends
01:31:41 incite some of um his activists friends to firebomb a charity shop. And he told you it had links to armed revolutionary nuclei, an Italian fascist group. Yeah.
01:31:49 Yeah. And Mr. Gilman and Mr. Batty and indeed Mr. Hedley have all given um some evidence about this to the inquiry. Um pages 206 to 207 of your book, pages
01:32:02 Um pages 206 to 207 of your book, pages 212 to 213 of the epic version, um you say that the night that Carlos suggested firebombing was the night he asked you to marry him. and you now think he did
01:32:13 to marry him. and you now think he did that to distract you. What do you mean by that?
01:32:17 by that? I think I think it's such a bizarre thing because the proposal itself I trusted it completely as it was a genuine proposal.
01:32:28 a genuine proposal. A genuine proposal based on the strength and stability and the love of our relationship. But when I found this out, when I kind of understood this, it just it seemed
01:32:39 of understood this, it just it seemed like he'd created some bizarre distraction. Um, it's it's just so it's so weird, you know? The whole the whole story is so weird. The very fact that this came up,
01:32:51 weird. The very fact that this came up, I mean, it's hug, everyone's having a lovely time. The fact that he he kind of injected this bizarre thing into a party.
01:33:02 into a party. So, did you hear Mr. Iraqi mention firebombing a charity shop. [snorts] I didn't hear it. No. But I know that um he'd kind of gone into our bedroom with people and I didn't really know what was
01:33:14 people and I didn't really know what was I was talking to other people. I was talking to kind of a I was talking to the women, you know, [laughter] it was like men were talking, women were talking and there was this kind of weird thing and he did give me a funny look, but I I had no idea what it meant.
01:33:27 but I I had no idea what it meant. So, how did you come to learn about the firebombing discussion and and from who, if you can remember? I was told later. It certainly wasn't on that night. Um, and it was a
01:33:38 that night. Um, and it was a conversation that I later had with it would have probably been Dan actually just about how bizarre it was and what how this had come up. It wasn't on the night itself. Thank you. Um,
01:33:51 night itself. Thank you. Um, I'd like to look at some of what he told you um about his um cover identity, his his background and how the some of that crossed over into his real life, please.
01:34:02 crossed over into his real life, please. Yeah.
01:34:02 Yeah. Um,
01:34:04 Um, he told you relatively early on, you've already told us on one of the trips to Scotland, I think in um December, early December, that he had a son. Yeah. From a previous relationship. Is that right?
01:34:15 a previous relationship. Is that right? Yeah. And is that about the timing you think that he it was absolutely I remember the I remember the cab journey and I remember getting back to my mom's. It was definitely that trip that weekend.
01:34:26 that weekend. Um at page 79 of your book um you say that Carlos Iraqi had a photo of his um that's eight sorry page 85 of the epic
01:34:37 that's eight sorry page 85 of the epic version. You say that Carlos Iraqi had a photo of his real son on the bookcase in your flat. Is that right? Obviously at the time you didn't um know it was a a son from a relationship that was ongoing
01:34:50 son from a relationship that was ongoing with his wife, but you your understanding is that that the photograph he had was actually of his son from that relationship. That was my understanding and he brought
01:35:01 That was my understanding and he brought after the conversation he put the photo deliberately on the bookcase and it was almost as if I've now kind of made this public. I've got this thing off my chest. I can tell people this truth. Um,
01:35:14 chest. I can tell people this truth. Um, and I subsequently found out it was his real son, but he'd also used the real name as well of his real son, which I'm obviously not going to share. No, thank you. Um, what other photos did
01:35:28 No, thank you. Um, what other photos did he have did he bring and place on that bookcase in He had a picture of his dad with the little boy feeding him spaghetti, which was in Italy. Um so this trip had
01:35:40 was in Italy. Um so this trip had one-off trip had happened. Um there were pictures of his sister, several pictures of his sister, pictures of his mom.
01:35:49 And you later found out that during this time uh that he'd lived with you, he had a wife and that at some point she was even pregnant with his second child. Yeah. During a time he was having
01:36:00 Yeah. During a time he was having committed. You understood? Yeah. The timing was when we were still because the relationship went on until November 2004 and the the timeline of when the second his second child from
01:36:13 when the second his second child from that relationship was born was that definitely his wife his ex-wife was pregnant while we were together. Um what had he told you about his son and his son's mother and that
01:36:26 and his son's mother and that relationship? He [snorts] told me that she was that he told me that they'd had a fling, that she'd got pregnant, that she wanted to keep the baby, but she didn't want to have a relationship with him. He told me that she was slightly
01:36:38 him. He told me that she was slightly older than him. He told me that she was um she had a good well- paid job. Um she wanted to live independently. She didn't want any financial support from him. And
01:36:49 want any financial support from him. And that he had allowed he'd had some contact initially, but then he'd allowed an arangement to happen. and that he was he felt really awful about that and he wanted to rebuild that and he was making
01:37:01 wanted to rebuild that and he was making an attempt to kind of resolve the difficulties he had with her in order to have regular contact and I fully supported that with his son. Yeah.
01:37:11 Yeah. And did that come to pass so far as you understood? Absolutely. So as far as I understood it after he told me when we were having these conversations after you know a very short period he
01:37:22 after you know a very short period he started to go and visit the son who lived down in Cornwall conveniently another Cornwall it's a very long trip to Cornwall but he was spending
01:37:34 to Cornwall but he was spending probably about one weekend a month there may have been more. He used to send me when he was away, he'd ring me all the time when he was away, but he'd also send me pictures of or like not not
01:37:45 send me pictures of or like not not pictures, but he'd send me like little notes about where they'd gone like to digger land or somewhere that you know that you take small children and he'd sort of keep me updated about these trips away.
01:37:56 trips away. And did he show you photographs when he came back of what he'd done um with his son?
01:38:05 I don't I I remember Diggerand. I remember a picture of Diggerland. I don't know why that is, why that stuck in my head, but obviously at that time people didn't have pictures on the mobile phones, so pictures were all hard copy. Um, so he would have more pictures
01:38:19 copy. Um, so he would have more pictures of the small boy. Um, and there'd be kind of a commentary of what they'd done in their their time together.
01:38:27 together. And of course, you now know that these were excuses to go home to his wife and children in London. Yeah. Um, how does that now make you feel?
01:38:41 Well, it's it's hard to find a word that's strong enough because fraudulent just doesn't quite match it. But what I what I know is that in terms of where where they
01:38:52 is that in terms of where where they were geographically at that point, as I understand it, we would spend some time not far from there. We would go out to places that were very close to where his real family were. So his real wife and
01:39:03 real family were. So his real wife and his children and his real sister and we were so we were spending time so close to there that I kind of question what level of
01:39:13 level of what you know what his mentality was in terms of that thrillseeking. I think there's an element of trying to kind of capture a bit of danger. Obviously I was completely unaware of all this. You know as far [snorts] as I was concerned they were geographically miles away. You
01:39:25 were geographically miles away. You know, the child was in Cornwall, sister was in an entirely different part of England, but it was almost like we could have been caught out. Not that I would have been aware of being caught out, but we could have been because of the just
01:39:37 we could have been because of the just the proximity. So, he had a community that wasn't that far from where we lived.
01:39:42 lived. Um, what did he uh what did he told you about his sister? You you talk about this a bit at pages 140 to 141 of your book. um pages 146 to 147 of the epic
01:39:55 book. um pages 146 to 147 of the epic version.
01:39:55 version. So prior to the kind of revelations about what happened later, he told me that his sister, she was older than him. She was married, she had two children, she lived in Peterbr and he would speak
01:40:08 she lived in Peterbr and he would speak to her on the phone. I could hear him speaking to a woman on the phone and he would say it was his sister. Again, I'm not going to use her name because he used a real he used a real version of her real name. Thank you. Um, but he told me that she
01:40:21 Thank you. Um, but he told me that she was very depressed. He told me that he worried about her a lot. He told me that she was very kind of selfisolating, that she didn't socialize, that she had an unhappy marriage. And when he went to see her, he wanted to he was worried
01:40:32 see her, he wanted to he was worried about her and he wanted to spend some time with her, focused on her health and her well-being, that she had this history of depression. Um, and again, when I wanted to meet her, he would say,
01:40:44 when I wanted to meet her, he would say, "Oh, we're going to do it soon." And then he'd put it off. And I'd say he'd say, "Well, we'll do it another time." So he'd he'd go off to visit her. Um and he'd say, "She's not feeling up to seeing you this time. She she's not
01:40:56 seeing you this time. She she's not she's just not in the mood for seeing people because she's depressed." And in your book, you say, "I remember uh my empathy for this fake uh his sister's name." The real his sister's
01:41:07 sister's name." The real his sister's name wasn't depressed at all. She had a successful business and a handsome husband and a beautiful house. And I found this out on Facebook. How does that make you feel? Um, now knowing that
01:41:18 that make you feel? Um, now knowing that I think there's two elements to it. The first element is again what you know the absurdity of these the the level of lies. You know the lies and the deception was so huge and I feel like it
01:41:31 deception was so huge and I feel like it goes way beyond anything that that deployment would ever have required had the deployment even been required in the first place. But I think the fact that he used so much of the real detail of their lives, including their names and
01:41:42 their lives, including their names and their photos, and he willingly gave me all that information. I had all that information because he gave it to me. The idea that we are somehow dangerous people, us trade unionists and people on the left are dangerous. He gave me all
01:41:54 the left are dangerous. He gave me all that stuff. He made it he made it part of our life for his own benefit. And he was using them as well. And you talk a little bit in your book about how some research quite quickly and easily was
01:42:06 research quite quickly and easily was able to discover their real identities. For example, you discovered there was a family Delhi. Um and that that was from Carlo's sister's picture on her Facebook
01:42:17 Carlo's sister's picture on her Facebook page which you recognized from the picture on your bookcase of of her. Yeah.
01:42:22 Yeah. Um and that he was named as a company director.
01:42:27 director. That was found by the researchers. So the researchers had done quite a lot of work in terms of paper trails and research. When it came to the actual recognizing people's faces, that's where I kind of slotted in because it was so
01:42:41 I kind of slotted in because it was so obvious this was the same person who was on a picture on my bookcase. Yes. And and his father, sister, and her husband were all directors of that family business. And you you deal with that at pages 64 and 65 of the book,
01:42:53 that at pages 64 and 65 of the book, pages 70 to 71 of the epic version. Um sir I'm conscious of the time that may be an appropriate moment for a break.
01:43:01 break. Certainly we have a break for 15 minutes um so that the short handwriters uh can um
01:43:07 um have a little break for my shortest also for you. Thank you so much.
02:02:24 Thank you, sir. Um, Donna, before we move on, um, with some more questions about how your relationship progress, I just want to ask you to clarify two points from before the break, please. Um
02:02:35 points from before the break, please. Um I asked you earlier on this morning about um being a member of a union and a union representative. Yeah. Um can you um tell us which union that was?
02:02:45 was? I was a member of TNG and also Unison and I became a rep for Unison. Thank you. Um the second thing is um we had talked just before the break about
02:02:56 had talked just before the break about the photos that were up in your on your bookcase in your flat that Carlo Sarra brought with him and you mentioned a photo of his real son um his father um
02:03:09 photo of his real son um his father um and his sister. Is that right? You never saw a photograph at that time of his real wife though. Is that right? No, never. Thank you. Um right. Uh I'd like to ask you about
02:03:23 Um right. Uh I'd like to ask you about um how the relationship um progressed following that your engagement in on New Year New Year's Eve in 2002 and how the relationship progressed through the
02:03:35 relationship progressed through the early to mid part of 2003. Okay. In the early part of 2003, we've dealt with some of that because of those um trips to uh Bologna and Whitby uh and I think Cornwall in that time. Is that
02:03:47 think Cornwall in that time. Is that right?
02:03:47 right? Yeah. So, so far as you were concerned in those first few months after the engagement, how was the relationship going?
02:03:53 going? Everything seemed normal. We also had a couple of other trips on our own. So, we went to the New Forest. We went to stay in a couple of nice hotels that are in the countryside. No one else was with us, so it was just us two. Um, and
02:04:06 us, so it was just us two. Um, and everything seemed to progress pretty much as normal on on the sort of course we were on, I think, apart from the fact the engagement ring didn't actually materialize.
02:04:17 materialize. So, that was that seemed to sort of that got put off a little bit and then got lost a little bit. But, were you making plans for the wedding? We talked a lot about where we would get
02:04:28 We talked a lot about where we would get married and how we would get married. And we also talked a lot at that point about where we would live in the future. We talked about moving to Scotland because in real practical terms to
02:04:39 because in real practical terms to settle permanently in London would be really difficult. Um but also we had we had to take into consideration the fact that Carlo had a child. So we were looking at how and when that might work.
02:04:53 looking at how and when that might work. We needed a bigger flat because his plan as he said at the time was to start to introduce me to his son and then we needed to get a two-bedroom place to accommodate that initially.
02:05:05 accommodate that initially. I see. And that was the sort of early to mid part of 2003. How how did it progress on from there through the summer and after the the summer? from
02:05:16 summer and after the the summer? from the summer the there was a the first kind of significant thing that changed was we had a two week holiday booked. I'd taken two weeks off work and we were going to go to France and we were going
02:05:27 going to go to France and we were going to follow the route of the tour to France which because Carlo really liked cycling and there had been photos of him when he was younger kind of mountain cycling. So this was something he liked. It wasn't something I was particularly
02:05:39 It wasn't something I was particularly interested in but I loved France so it sounded like a really really nice plan. And also it was going to be a two week trip which was quite a significant chunk of time. So that had been booked off work. [snorts] It was
02:05:51 work. [snorts] It was I kind of left it up to him. He decided to book it and he decided to sort out all the travel. So we were going to drive down to do from London, get the ferry and then have a a trip that was
02:06:02 ferry and then have a a trip that was going to be pretty much organized by him. And as far as I was aware, he'd booked the ferry and that was all sorted. But just prior to so the the day before we were supposed to go, he said
02:06:16 before we were supposed to go, he said to me, he came home and said, "I I'm so sorry. I have to cancel this trip. My father's ill and I have to go back to Italy."
02:06:24 Italy." And I said, "You know what? What's happened?" He said, "He's had a stroke, so it's serious and I need to go." Um, and he said, "I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. We we've, you know, we have to cancel this this kind of this trip, but I'll
02:06:37 this this kind of this trip, but I'll make it up to you." And so he went away for he went away for that period and I went I just went to work the next day. I canceled my holiday and this was in the summer of 20 June. I
02:06:48 and this was in the summer of 20 June. I think it's June tour to France's June July.
02:06:51 July. Yeah. Thank you. Um was that the only um thing that that had had hiccup in the relationship or was there any general change around that time or were things fine other than
02:07:02 time or were things fine other than that?
02:07:02 that? In terms of his behavior, no, that was the main thing. And then when he went away, he rang me every single day on that period of the the Italy trip, which obviously wasn't an Italy trip,
02:07:14 which obviously wasn't an Italy trip, but he seemed perfectly normal. He seemed a bit worried about his dad, but and it sounded at that point that there was some efforts to possibly repair that relationship because it had been a bit
02:07:25 relationship because it had been a bit fractured. Um, but he seemed steady and he seemed he seemed okay by that time. He changed job as well, though. So when I met him, he was a locksmith. That was
02:07:36 I met him, he was a locksmith. That was the job that he told me. But he then started to work for a company that did import and export of Italian food. And he also kind of repaired those huge
02:07:47 he also kind of repaired those huge coffee machines. So he was away a bit more. So he was away to visit his son and he was away for occasional work trips. So he might have gone away a couple of times a month. So that that
02:07:58 couple of times a month. So that that kind of being there every single night had changed. But his behavior, you know, his general behavior towards me hadn't changed at that time. And how did that progress through the latter part, the end of 2003? [snorts]
02:08:09 latter part, the end of 2003? [snorts] That pretty much continued as a regular thing. I was obviously quite comfortable with the fact that he was going to visit his child and the fact that he had this new job. I mean, I could I could kind of
02:08:20 new job. I mean, I could I could kind of see the spoils of the job because he brought stuff home all the time. So, he'd bring home really nice things because he he as far as I was concerned, he was taking short trips to Italy and
02:08:31 he was taking short trips to Italy and he was bringing home lots of Italian food and he was bringing me presents. So, it looked as if that's what he was doing. There was I had no reason to to doubt what he was saying. By the end of 2003, were you still
02:08:44 By the end of 2003, were you still planning the wedding? We'd
02:08:47 We'd it was still there on the kind of back burner. We were talking about moving. We were talking about finding somewhere new to live. That had become a priority. I knew that I was going to have to move out of the flat in Mville because I'd
02:08:59 out of the flat in Mville because I'd almost kind of reached the time when when I needed to move. So, I was trying to kind of plan ahead and look at where we could afford to stay and how long we thought we might stay in London. And I
02:09:10 thought we might stay in London. And I was starting to push him a little bit about meeting the child as well because I was thinking, well, I don't want [snorts] to be too pushy. Um, but I know that you've reestablished you've re established this relationship and we
02:09:22 established this relationship and we have a long-term relationship and at what point do we start to integrate our lives a little bit? So that was that was kind of become towards towards the end of the year that was becoming more of a
02:09:33 of the year that was becoming more of a thing for me. So was there somewhat of a shift in the relationship and how it was going towards the very end of the year? I think there was a
02:09:44 I think there was a a small shift, but it wasn't enough to make me alarmed. Thank you. It just wasn't progressing quite the way I wanted it to or expected it to.
02:09:55 I wanted it to or expected it to. Thank you. Uh, what were your plans for Christmas and New Year in 2003? [snorts] We'd already decided, well, he had decided, I didn't really have any choice in that. He decided he would go back to
02:10:06 in that. He decided he would go back to Italy again to see his dad because his dad obviously had been sick. So, he was going to go back for Christmas and then come back for New Year's again. Um, and same with me, I was just going to go to Scotland and then come back for New
02:10:18 Scotland and then come back for New Year's.
02:10:19 Year's. So, Christmas apart because of his father's illness, he had told you. So, a trip to Italy for him and then New Year again together. Again,
02:10:27 Again, that was the plan. Yeah.
02:10:29 Yeah. Um, what in fact happened? What happened in fact was that he didn't come back for New Year. I went to a party at Dan's house instead, which was
02:10:41 party at Dan's house instead, which was what we'd already planned to do together. So, we were going to go to Dan's that year and there were quite a few people there that I knew and my my good friend from work came along as well. So, Carlo ranged to say that he
02:10:53 well. So, Carlo ranged to say that he wasn't coming back cuz his dad was really sick. So, his father had apparently over that Christmas period had a real deterioration in his health that hadn't been apparent before he left for Christmas because the plan was to
02:11:06 for Christmas because the plan was to come back for New Year. So that that deterioration had happened. He sounded worried. He sounded a bit more edgy. He sounded a bit more stressed. Um and then
02:11:18 Um and then it was on the in the early hours of New Year's Day. He rang me to say his father had died.
02:11:24 had died. Whilst you were at I was at Dan's house at the party at Dan Gilman's house. And he told you that his father had died. Do you remember the rest of that conversation? What else did he say? I
02:11:36 conversation? What else did he say? I remember I mean I was obviously really really upset for him and I remember asking him I was what can I do? Do you want me to come? Do you know shall I change plans? Shall I you know shall I get there? And he said no I need to
02:11:48 get there? And he said no I need to organize things. I need to organize the funeral. I there's no point in you coming because you don't know anyone. It's going to be really difficult and really complicated. You know it's it's just it's there's no point in coming at
02:11:59 just it's there's no point in coming at the moment. There's no point trying to do that. So, you know, you just kind of stick with [clears throat] what you're doing and I'll do this and I'll see you when the funeral's over, basically.
02:12:10 when the funeral's over, basically. What was your reaction to to that at the time in his sort of um refusing your offer to go over there? I I felt a bit pushed away, but then I
02:12:22 I I felt a bit pushed away, but then I also thought, well, I don't know any of these people. I don't speak the language. It's somewhere rural that I'd have to get to. And in some ways, although I don't feel I don't feel emotionally comfortable with this, I
02:12:33 emotionally comfortable with this, I have to accept what he needs and what he wants. It's it's not really it's not about me. I have to kind of remove myself slightly. Although I felt a bit, you know, because it was it was a huge
02:12:45 you know, because it was it was a huge thing, but it was also a continuation of the not being involved in his family life when he was so embedded in my family life. And that just felt a bit lopsided.
02:12:53 lopsided. Yes.
02:12:54 Yes. And I also thought, you know, I'm I'm quite good with people. I'm quite good in situations. You can kind of take me anywhere and I can be helpful and not difficult. And so there was a little bit of that as well. I thought you're not
02:13:05 of that as well. I thought you're not sort of you're not understanding what I can be like around difficult situations. But I had I felt I had to leave it really.
02:13:13 really. So did you feel there was some sort of growing distance in the relationship between you even before this particular phone? At that point, he sounded, you know, he sounded quite he wasn't himself, but it was normal in
02:13:25 he wasn't himself, but it was normal in that situation for someone to not be themsself, and I was accepting of that at that point. Thank you. Um, when did he return to London?
02:13:36 London? Um, I think he was away for two weeks, so it was kind of mid January. Might have been might have been two and a half weeks. In your book at pages 181 and 188, that's 187 and 194 of the epic
02:13:49 and 188, that's 187 and 194 of the epic version, [clears throat] you you say two weeks later he came back to London. Does that sound about Sounds about right. Yeah. Um, how was he when he returned? When he came back, it was it was weird
02:14:01 When he came back, it was it was weird cuz he just didn't he didn't seem like himself at all. And I know that he'd had this awful thing and he'd had a bereavement, but he didn't even look like himself. And this was the thing that really struck me. So he looked he
02:14:12 that really struck me. So he looked he looked a bit haggarded. He looked, you know, he'd let his beard grow out and he he always had his hair quite closely cropped. He'd let it grow out as well. So he looks a bit
02:14:23 it grow out as well. So he looks a bit disheveled. Um he looked like he'd lost weight.
02:14:28 weight. And he also just looked it's weird. His eyes looked different. There was kind of a glaze to them like he wasn't quite there. He wasn't quite present. Um [snorts] so that was kind of immediate.
02:14:40 [snorts] so that was kind of immediate. But there was an immediate change in his behavior. He was much less affectionate. He was much less touchy. He was much less loving. Um and I just
02:14:51 He was much less loving. Um and I just thought, well, this, you know, obviously this terrible thing has happened and I can see how much it's affecting him because he looks so different. And I I didn't question that either. I
02:15:02 And I I didn't question that either. I just thought this is awful, you know, but I knew he wasn't close to his dad. I knew that there had been a lot of issues in the past, but this was quite dramatic.
02:15:10 dramatic. Um, what did he say to you about his emotional state? Well, he told me, and I can't remember exactly. I think I mean, to me, it feels like it was immediately when he came
02:15:21 like it was immediately when he came back, within a very short period of time, he told me there'd been a really awful
02:15:27 awful situation that had arisen. And that at the funeral when his sister had arrived or after so they had the funeral and then after the funeral he was
02:15:39 and then after the funeral he was talking to his sister and this cousin he had this cousin he said was a nurse who he was really close to and they were talking and his sister then revealed that she'd been sexually abused by her father throughout her kind of early
02:15:53 father throughout her kind of early puberty early teenage years. Um, and he said that he he had known about domestic abuse in the family. We'd already discussed that.
02:16:04 the family. We'd already discussed that. He'd told me that right from the beginning. He told me that his father had been violent towards his mother. He told me that his father was scary. He told me that that was part of the reason why this relationship was fractured. But this was an entirely new thing. He he
02:16:17 this was an entirely new thing. He he didn't know. He'd not heard of it. It'd come out now. He said it explained a great deal about his sister's behavior and how she was and how she was isolated and how she was depressed and how her
02:16:29 and how she was depressed and how her kind of selfisolation had had come about. He said he felt hugely guilty because he said this was another example of how he'd not been able to protect people that he loved because he'd
02:16:41 people that he loved because he'd already been in that situation with his mother. And now there was this thing with his sister. And he just felt awful. And he kind of pretty much said, "Look, I just can't touch you at the moment. I
02:16:52 I just can't touch you at the moment. I can't physically touch you because I feel repulsed by what's happened. I feel dirty. I feel unable to be physically affectionate with you. And it was it was
02:17:04 affectionate with you. And it was it was really I mean it was awful. It was so awful.
02:17:06 awful. Did he say anything further um about his mental state? He said he said he was he said he was losing his mind. He said I'm really I'm I need space. I need I need to sort my
02:17:17 I need space. I need I need to sort my head out. I don't I'm not myself. I don't feel like I'm not the person that you fell in love with. I'm not I don't feel like that person. I can't give you what you need at the moment. I don't
02:17:29 what you need at the moment. I don't know. I need to try and get my head around this. He kept repeating, you know, he repeatedly said, I still love you. Don't for a minute think I don't love you. You know, we'll get through this because I love you so much and we
02:17:40 this because I love you so much and we will be together, but I'm not in a good place and I feel really really just I mean, he used the words like dirty and guilty a lot and broken. They were the
02:17:51 guilty a lot and broken. They were the kind of [clears throat] And he was also [snorts]
02:17:55 [snorts] physically really on edge like kind of his movements his his physical manifestation had changed. He'd always I mean he was a very big person but he'd move quite easily and he started to be
02:18:06 move quite easily and he started to be quite you know he'd sort of bang things or he looked angry he looked unpredictable I think were you concerned about his I was really concerned about him I was
02:18:17 I was really concerned about him I was really I was hugely concerned because this was just it was huge I mean it's like a you know it's it's a massive thing to to drop on people to drop into people's lives and my you know my own
02:18:31 people's lives and my you know my own experience in life, my own experience in work, all all of that stuff just made me want to
02:18:37 want to just help him and look after him. That was my main my main thing. And it was like, what can I actually do in this situation? What can I do to to support
02:18:48 situation? What can I do to to support this?
02:18:49 this? Um, was he specific about the details of the sexual abuse his sister had revealed?
02:18:53 revealed? He was very specific. Yeah. And what were those details? He he said that his sister had been raped anally and orally in order to avoid pregnancy.
02:19:10 Um we also heard some evidence from Mr. Batty that Carlos Iraqi had revealed what his sister had told him supposedly after his father's funeral about um his
02:19:23 after his father's funeral about um his sexual abuse of her. Did you know at the time that he told Joe Batty that? I had no idea that Joe knew about that because Carlo made me promise to not tell anybody. So, as far as I was aware,
02:19:35 tell anybody. So, as far as I was aware, I was the only person who knew and he wasn't sharing that with anyone. He asked me specifically not to tell anyone.
02:19:41 anyone. And what's your reaction to knowing that he he had in fact made that disclosure to Mr. Batty at the time? Well, the first time I heard it was during Joe's evidence, and I was really sort of I
02:19:54 evidence, and I was really sort of I thought, "Oh my god, he's used this to manipulate someone else as well. He's not just It's not just me. He's used this horrific story and used someone else as, you know, a very close
02:20:05 else as, you know, a very close emotional support with this horrific story." And he has no care for the impact on them. He has no care how that actually affects other people. I was I was very upset and very angry
02:20:17 I was I was very upset and very angry when I heard that. Um, h how did you feel about him telling you at the time not to talk about it with anyone else? [snorts] Uncomfortable. It's not I'm not a huge
02:20:30 Uncomfortable. It's not I'm not a huge fan of
02:20:32 fan of holding secrets around trauma because if you share trauma with someone then they carry some of the trauma. So, it makes it difficult. It's a difficult thing to hold without having
02:20:44 a difficult thing to hold without having someone else to talk to. Um, but I did it anyway. Kind of probably against my own better judgment. So, you didn't tell anyone? Not for a long time. Not for a long
02:20:55 Not for a long time. Not for a long time.
02:20:55 time. How do you feel about that now knowing that it was untrue essentially and he put that emotional weight upon you? I think I think it's a really I think it's I think it's I think it's one of
02:21:07 it's I think it's I think it's one of the crulest things that he did actually. I think it's a really cruel thing. I think it's really malicious. And I think when you know when Carlo uses terms like collateral intrusion, that's not collateral intrusion. That's deliberate
02:21:18 collateral intrusion. That's deliberate psychological harm being inflicted. Um there are so many ways that he could have come up with a story. But to use such
02:21:26 such damage in stories, it's
02:21:30 it's Yeah, I think I think [snorts] it's cruel.
02:21:36 cruel. Um Mr. Saraki denies that he told you this about his sister's disclosure uh in his witness statement to the inquiry at paragraph 223 and that's page 104
02:21:49 paragraph 223 and that's page 104 and he says this and I just want to get your reaction to what he says. Uh I'm told that Donna stated that I instigated the breakdown of that relationship. The breakdown of our relationship was a
02:22:00 breakdown of our relationship was a two-way thing. I acknowledged there were a lot of stresses and strains, some caused by my real identity. I did refer to the death of my father in my cover role because it was an event I could not
02:22:12 role because it was an event I could not hide emotionally. I told Donna that my sister had suffered violence at the hands of my father, but I did not say to Donna this was sexual violence. I did say that I had suffered from both my
02:22:24 say that I had suffered from both my father's death and from the information that he had been violent towards my sister. I did say that I was going through a lot of mental anguish. This was partially true, but also partially a part of my exfiltration strategy. I did
02:22:37 part of my exfiltration strategy. I did use this as part of the reason for moving out of her flat around May 2004, and the relationship finally ended in about November 2004. Um, [snorts] what's your reaction to
02:22:48 Um, [snorts] what's your reaction to that statement generally? Well, he's been honest about one thing. He moved out in May and it ended in November. That's about the only honest thing that's in there. Um, I think, you
02:22:59 thing that's in there. Um, I think, you know, he told Joe as well. He told me this and he asked me to keep it secret and he told Joe as well. And it's it's just I think it's just awful. I think it's awful that he he wanted um he wanted us to carry that. I think it's
02:23:11 wanted us to carry that. I think it's awful that he used that as a story. And
02:23:15 And was the breakdown of your relationship a two-way thing? No. No, not in the slightest. I didn't want it to end at all. Um it when he moved out, he didn't say the relationship was going to end. He moved
02:23:26 relationship was going to end. He moved out and he consistently had said from that new year we were going to work it out. And when he moved out in in May, I was shocked.
02:23:39 he moved out in in May, I was shocked. I was deeply upset. But that only lasted two weeks and then he reappeared again. Um, do you have any further comment on his denial that he told you his sister
02:23:50 his denial that he told you his sister had suffered sexual violence by their father as opposed to just violence? [snorts]
02:23:59 I think the use of the use of that um just the use of that story, the use of sexual violence, the use of rape, the use of it's so dangerous um as a as a strategy, you know, to use this to
02:24:12 strategy, you know, to use this to exfiltrate I I just I don't understand. I really do. I don't understand why that would be an option. I don't understand why it
02:24:24 an option. I don't understand why it would be a way of leaving. There's so many ways you could leave a relationship. It's just so unnecessary and so cruel and so evil. And his denial of it is again, everything that he denies, there's someone else who's
02:24:36 denies, there's someone else who's witnessed it. So, it's just untrue. It's just completely untrue. Um he said he was um going to move out of your flat in Mavale. Yeah. Um what did he give us the reasons for
02:24:48 Um what did he give us the reasons for doing that? Because he needed to get a clear head because he in order to in order to get his head together, he didn't want to be around me. He he felt he was unable to
02:24:59 around me. He he felt he was unable to have a physical relationship with me at that point and he needed head space. So, so far as you were concerned from what he was telling you, he wasn't at this stage ending the relationship.
02:25:11 this stage ending the relationship. No, not finally. No. Because at the same time, while he was doing this, he was saying, "I still love you. We'll work this out. I still love you. Don't worry. It will all be fine. I just have to sort
02:25:22 It will all be fine. I just have to sort myself out." Uh, and that was in May 2004. Yeah.
02:25:28 Yeah. Um, how did how did um physically that come to happen? And how did he move out? He told me he was going to move out and then the day that he actually moved out,
02:25:39 then the day that he actually moved out, he did it while I was at work. So, he hadn't he'd said, "I'm moving out." And I said, "Well, I don't want you to." But he said he was. And then he moved out the same week, but didn't tell me the
02:25:51 the same week, but didn't tell me the day he was going. So, I got home from work and he literally emptied everything of his out of the flat. He' taken apart from the dressing table, he'd taken everything. So it was it was just
02:26:02 everything. So it was it was just bizarre. I got in and I kind of went into the living room and he the the TV was plopped on the floor and the TV kind of cabinet had gone and he taken that as
02:26:14 of cabinet had gone and he taken that as well and I just thought this is it's just weird. So I you know the bookcase was half empty. He' taken his books and he taken his CDs. The kitchen was half empty cuz he'd brought loads of cooking stuff. His clothes were obviously gone
02:26:26 stuff. His clothes were obviously gone from the the bedroom and then the photos etc. But the fact that he' taken the TV cabinet, I just thought, "Oh, I don't know why you've done that. That just seems it was like a real kind of visual
02:26:37 seems it was like a real kind of visual thing to to walk into a TV on the floor." [snorts] Um, he comments on this at paragraph 223 at page 104 of his witness statement at um 223.2.
02:26:50 witness statement at um 223.2. He says, "I did not have many belongings in Donna's flat when the relationship ended. I had a few books and some clothes and some cooking utensils. I do not know what is meant by the claim that I forensically removed my belongings
02:27:01 I forensically removed my belongings from her flat. Do you have any further comment on what he says there? Well, I mean, he says some cooking utensils. There were loads of cooking utensils and glasses and, you know, coffee makers and it wasn't just a few
02:27:13 coffee makers and it wasn't just a few things. It was he substantially changed the flat when he moved in and he took everything that he apart from the flooring and the blinds which probably were a bit more difficult to move. He' taken everything apart from that
02:27:25 taken everything apart from that dressing table. So everything and he I think also you know when he did move in over that earlier period he tried really hard to make it a home. He he went to a huge amount of effort to make it homely
02:27:36 huge amount of effort to make it homely and to make it look nice and to make it feel comfortable but he took all of that stuff. There wasn't he didn't leave anything
02:27:44 anything in terms of what he'd told you about um the reason why he was moving out and that he wanted to get his um head together because of this that was directly related to this disclosure by
02:27:55 directly related to this disclosure by his sister of this um sexual violence rape by their father over a number of years from when she was very young. Um was he aware um that you had had um a
02:28:08 was he aware um that you had had um a history within your family of a violent abusive father? Yeah. Yeah, he was. Um and do you think he had used um this background of childhood trauma? You said
02:28:19 background of childhood trauma? You said he'd also mentioned to you that his father had been physically violent but had not yet had not previously known about sexual violence. Yeah. Do you think he had deliberately used that to create a close emotional bond
02:28:31 that to create a close emotional bond with you? I [snorts] think it's a way of creating empathy because when people have got any kind of shared history that involves trauma then they have a bond
02:28:42 involves trauma then they have a bond with each other. They have something that they have in common. And I think you know it was one of the things that made us very close. It was one of the things that we could share with each other.
02:28:52 other. And how quickly into the relationship had you been sharing those Oh, very very quickly. within within a few weeks. Both him and you. Yeah. Yeah.
02:29:03 Yeah. Yeah. Both sides. Yeah.
02:29:05 Yeah. Um
02:29:10 what happened um in the weeks uh after he moved out of your flat? You said I think you said he disappeared for two weeks.
02:29:19 weeks. Yeah, he went for two weeks. Um so was there any contact within that period of time? I don't think there was any contact for a couple of weeks. I was kind of feeling a quite distraught at that point. And
02:29:30 a quite distraught at that point. And then I remember him ringing me and saying, "Oh, can we meet up? You know, I really miss you. I really want to see you. I really miss you." Um, and we met up and from that point, so from that
02:29:43 up and from that point, so from that kind of two week point, we were seeing each other again. He didn't move back in, but we always seen each other two, three times a week. So you he called you, you met up uh for
02:29:55 So you he called you, you met up uh for dinner.
02:29:57 dinner. I think we went for dinner. And how did he behave [snorts] uh towards you during that? He was very affectionate again. He was very apologetic. He was
02:30:11 He was very apologetic. He was consistently saying, "I really want to sort this out. I just hope you can have the patience to give me some time to sort this out because I I you know, I'm I need to do this, but I know we'll be
02:30:22 I need to do this, but I know we'll be okay. I know that this is you know, we are going to get through this together." and he became physical again. So, the relationship started again. Yes. Page 94 of your book, page 100 of
02:30:33 Yes. Page 94 of your book, page 100 of the epic version, you say that um he went out to dinner, he behaved romantically towards you. Is that right? Yeah.
02:30:41 Yeah. And like he was going to propose again and you thought he was going to come back.
02:30:46 back. Yeah. I thought I I kind of thought there was going to be a complete U-turn and that was him saying, I'm, you know, can I please come back? Can I move back in? I'm sorry. I made a terrible mistake. I felt that was where we were,
02:30:57 mistake. I felt that was where we were, but he didn't do that. But the relationship kind of his physical language was such that that would have made sense. And you say that the physical relationship started up again from that
02:31:08 relationship started up again from that evening. Is that right? Yeah. Um did you go back to his flat? I can't remember. Um did you have sex that night?
02:31:19 Um did you have sex that night? I'm trying to remember where he lived at that point. That's because he moved out and he moved in with a friend. So I think that helps I think at page 60 96 sorry of your book page 102 of the epic version you say you went back to his
02:31:31 version you say you went back to his flat and slept together [snorts]
02:31:35 [snorts] then that yeah that would be my best recollection. Um after that first night where the relationship had started up again physically um how did the relationship
02:31:48 physically um how did the relationship progress from there? What happened from there? I had to move. So, I ended up having to move to I moved in with a friend in
02:31:59 move to I moved in with a friend in South London. Um, Carlo helped me move. Um, we saw each other, I'd say, two or three times a week regularly. Not on any sort of set days, just
02:32:12 Not on any sort of set days, just whenever, you know, we'd kind of arrange it as we went. We
02:32:18 We I think we were generally staying where he was at that point, but also in the flat that I was in because sometimes the people were away. So we we saw each other two or three times, went
02:32:29 saw each other two or three times, went for dinner, stayed the night, went to cinema, but it kind of stuck to that two or three nights a week. Never really and it didn't really change beyond that.
02:32:41 and it didn't really change beyond that. And when you were seeing each other, how often were you having sex? every time we saw each other. Um I think you mentioned you'd moved in
02:32:52 Um I think you mentioned you'd moved in with a particular work colleague initially from your flat in Mavale and then you moved I think to Camberwell to another friend's flat. Is that right? That was slightly longer term. And um roughly when was that move from
02:33:07 And um roughly when was that move from your work colleagues flat to your other friend's flat in Campberwell? I think I was with first friend for about three months and then moved in with second friend for at least a year I think.
02:33:19 friend for at least a year I think. So that that kind of saw through the end of the relationship the second flat in Campberwell. And I think that you said um Carlos Saraki helped you move to the flat in Camberwell. Is that right? He helped me Yeah. He helped me move
02:33:30 He helped me Yeah. He helped me move twice.
02:33:31 twice. And so as far as you were concerned you were still in a relationship together. Is that right at that time? We were still in a relationship, but it felt like a very different relationship to the one that we'd been in before. It was
02:33:43 the one that we'd been in before. It was still, as far as I was concerned, we were still
02:33:48 in a monogous relationship. I didn't think he was seen anyone else. He gave no indication that he was seen anyone else, and he was still talking about the future
02:33:56 future being a possibility. Um, but [clears throat] there was a there was a kind of distance and he wasn't behaving inappropriately. He'd stopped being kind of angry and he
02:34:08 stopped being kind of angry and he tidied himself up again. So, it was it wasn't that kind of on the edge stuff, but there was a distance that we never seemed to get past again. And how did you feel about the
02:34:20 And how did you feel about the relationship and its future at this point?
02:34:23 point? I felt quite sad. I felt like there'd been I felt that I'd had a kind of I'd had a couple of I mean I'd had quite a few big losses in that whole period that we were
02:34:34 losses in that whole period that we were together but I felt you know the fact that I'd had to move out of the flat and the fact that we'd been planning to live together and he kind of left me in the
02:34:45 together and he kind of left me in the lurch because I hadn't planned properly for where I was going to go. So I was kind of moving around a little bit and on a bit of you know quite shaky ground emotionally myself. Mhm. Um, so I
02:34:58 Um, so I I I felt uncared for, but I know I was still hanging on to it. I know that I was still believing that it could work out. Believing that actually, you know, this massive massive trauma, this
02:35:10 this massive massive trauma, this massive thing that had happened, that's not going to resolve itself quickly, and I have if I if I want this to keep working, I've got to put the time in and be patient. But I also felt a bit fragile.
02:35:21 fragile. How did you feel about him? I still loved him. And what was he telling you about the relationship and how he felt about you? He was still telling me he loved me. He
02:35:33 He was still telling me he loved me. He was still buying me presents. We were still sleeping together. Um he wasn't indicating that he wanted to finish it. But this this kind of the idea of this space where he needed to get his head
02:35:45 space where he needed to get his head together was was continuing. And
02:35:50 And he wasn't really when I tried to challenge that, he wasn't giving me any substantive answers as to where we were going or how that was going to work.
02:36:01 going or how that was going to work. So,
02:36:02 So, what was he telling you about his emotional state at this stage? That it was still tough, that he was still struggling, that he still wasn't himself, that he still needed more time, that he still needed that bit of space.
02:36:15 that he still needed that bit of space. So he was kind of clearly verbalizing, I still need this space and that is why we're not living together. And was there any further discussion at all about the disclosure he said his
02:36:28 all about the disclosure he said his sister had made at all or We talked a lot about that. We did talk about that. He talked about his feelings about it. He talked about feeling angry with himself. He was, you know, he talked about the kind of the the family
02:36:39 talked about the kind of the the family unit because the cousin who he said was a nurse had known about it. She was very close to the sister. He felt conflicted because he loved that cousin and felt that it, you know, the way that
02:36:52 and felt that it, you know, the way that he'd found out and how he'd found out and how he hadn't been told earlier. All of this was a conflict. So, he talked about his internal conflicts a lot. So, there was quite a lot of detail. Yeah. Yeah. Coming from him.
02:37:03 Coming from him. Yeah. and and kind of old memories. And he talked about his mom a lot as well. And he talked about the early stuff, you know, the the more physical violence and the atmosphere in the house and how he
02:37:14 the atmosphere in the house and how he felt as a child and how he felt he felt um
02:37:20 um quite weak and helpless at that point. And so far as you were concerned at this time, had he told anyone else? No.
02:37:27 No. And so you thought at the time he you were the only person he was talking to about this? Yeah, I was not aware he told anyone else at all. And how did that make you feel at the time?
02:37:40 I felt it was my it was my duty. It was my role. It was I was his partner. It was also
02:37:48 was also affecting how I felt because I was quite fragile. I'd become quite fragile. So it affected your mental state. Yeah. Yeah, it did. And how do you feel about that now knowing that he not only
02:37:59 about that now knowing that he not only denies
02:38:01 denies um that that initial conversation about the the disclosure by his sister of sexual violence, but that he had also told that lie to Mr. Batty?
02:38:14 Well, I think he exploited us both. I think he, you know, he used he used people in a very manipulative psychological way and it was it was kind
02:38:25 psychological way and it was it was kind of, you know, it was extended. He kept doing it. He kept using me for this emotional support, this that wasn't real. It was all fabricated.
02:38:36 that wasn't real. It was all fabricated. And, you know, the entire relationship was fabricated. But this part of the relationship being fabricated just feels like one of the worst bits, I think. Uh, when was the last time you saw him?
02:38:48 when was the last time you saw him? It was November 2004. Can't remember the exact date now. Uh, 2003 or 2004. 2004.
02:38:57 2004. Um,
02:38:58 Um, and tell me about that last occasion. Last time I saw him, we'd gone to the cinema. It was an art house cinema in London. He was really weird. Like, we
02:39:10 London. He was really weird. Like, we got to see a long film. It was an Italian film that he' chosen. He'd made the arrangements. We he decided on the day
02:39:18 day um and then when we left the cinema he put me in a taxi. It was the first time this had ever happened that he wasn't we weren't going somewhere together. So we'd been out together but we weren't
02:39:30 we'd been out together but we weren't going somewhere else together you know to someone's one of his, you know, his flat or my flat and he put me in the and then he he like threw some money at me for the taxi and it was like what is
02:39:42 for the taxi and it was like what is this? What is this behavior? You know, it was so kind of off and so dismissive and it was horrible and I felt horrible. What did he say at the time? He's like, "Oh, you know, I'm not going
02:39:54 He's like, "Oh, you know, I'm not going to not going to come back tonight. I'm like
02:39:59 like just not feeling it kind of thing." Um, it was weird. He'd been weird the whole night. He'd been very weird the whole night.
02:40:08 night. Um, was there then another communication you had with him by email? Yeah, he sent me an email to work. So, I only had a work email address at that point. Um, and he sent me an email to work just
02:40:19 and he sent me an email to work just saying he he said it's, you know, that he wasn't going to see me again. He'd moved on, he said. So, you reproduce it at page 184 of your book, page 190 of the epic version. And
02:40:32 book, page 190 of the epic version. And um, we see from minesukati@gmail.com. Is that his email address? That's it. Yeah. Uh, to to your email address. And um you say he says, "I'm writing to say goodbye
02:40:43 say he says, "I'm writing to say goodbye for the last time. I've tried, but I can't make it work. I have to move on now. I'm sorry to hurt you. I loved you more than you will ever know, Carlo." Um
02:40:54 more than you will ever know, Carlo." Um how did that make you feel? Um it's it's weird reading it because I can remember because because I'm reading this on a screen, I was sitting at work at my desk reading it and I was, "Oh my
02:41:09 at my desk reading it and I was, "Oh my god." And I remember I cuz I had an an office that I shared with someone else because I was a manager by that point and the person who was sat opposite me they said what's up and I was like oh my
02:41:20 they said what's up and I was like oh my god you don't believe it and I told them and I was
02:41:24 and I was you know [snorts] it was kind of shattering really cuz I mean any sensible person in this room will probably be saying why didn't you see the signs that this was going to come you know the man has thrown money
02:41:35 come you know the man has thrown money at you in a taxi but I didn't I just yeah it was just too fine. It was a shock. It was a huge shock. I didn't expect final because I was working very much on
02:41:46 final because I was working very much on the basis that the problems in the relationship were all to do with that trauma and not to do with me and him. Yes.
02:41:51 Yes. It wasn't about us. It was about this thing that had happened that had hugely impacted on him as a as a person and it wasn't about us or the fact that we had
02:42:03 wasn't about us or the fact that we had future. So yes, I see on the same page of the book um you say that two weeks later a handwritten note arrived saying that he would always love you and enclosed a spa
02:42:15 would always love you and enclosed a spa voucher.
02:42:16 voucher. Yeah.
02:42:17 Yeah. Um what did you think about that? Oh my [laughter] god. I was living with my friend in the second flat in Campberwell and um he was just it was
02:42:29 Campberwell and um he was just it was interesting because my the second friend that I lived with both of the friends I lived with were were gay men but the second one had taken a real dislike to Carlo and he actually I remember who he said to me he's like I don't know what
02:42:40 said to me he's like I don't know what you see in him because he's homophobic and I was like no he's a really good person he's leftwing he's lovely he loves people and he's like I'm telling you now and you're not listening to me he is homophobic and I don't like him so
02:42:51 he is homophobic and I don't like him so this arrived rived and my friend was just like, "Jesus, he's are you just going to let it go now then? Can you just" and I said, "I'm putting this in the bin." I said, "I don't want this." I said, "I'm just like, what?" You know, what is he doing sending me this? And he
02:43:03 what is he doing sending me this? And he said, "Don't put it in the bin. Just give it to someone else and they'll use it." So, that's what I did. Was [snorts] there any further communication from him? Nope.
02:43:12 Nope. At all after this? No.
02:43:13 No. Did you ever try? There was one. Sorry. There was one communication and that was that was it would have been four or five months later and I was
02:43:24 four or five months later and I was going on a trip to Italy and I sent him an email to that email address and just said, "Hi, hope you're doing well." kind of thing. I'm going on a holiday with my sister. Wonder if you've got any sort of
02:43:35 sister. Wonder if you've got any sort of top tips. And it was that simple. And he just replied and said, "No, I don't. Sorry. Can't help." That was the end of it.
02:43:42 it. Okay.
02:43:42 Okay. That was the last the last communication. And was there anything after that from you to him? Nothing.
02:43:48 Nothing. And nothing from him to you? Nothing. Nothing.
02:43:51 Nothing. Um, thank you. [snorts] Uh, I just want to ask you briefly then about how you found out that he was an undercover police officer. Um, when did you first suspect uh, something was
02:44:03 you first suspect uh, something was wrong?
02:44:04 wrong? I had a weird sense in 2014 and that was because I read the undercover book, the Rob Evans book. Um, and a friend had come, an old friend
02:44:17 and a friend had come, an old friend from London who'd moved back to Scotland, came to stay with me in my new house when I'd moved out of London. And she said, "Have you read this book?" I said, "No, but I've I've kind of seen it in the, you know, in the news." And so
02:44:29 in the, you know, in the news." And so she said, "Read it." She was like, "Read it." And I started reading it. I was just thinking, "Oh my god, this sounds so weird." you know, and I kept reading it and I kind of sat up all night reading it and I just I'm I get this
02:44:40 reading it and I just I'm I get this weird hairs on the back of my neck go up because when I was reading the stories of the women who originally discovered this and and did did the work on this, I just thought this sounds like Carlo.
02:44:51 just thought this sounds like Carlo. This is so weird. But the fact that it sounded so similar, you know, the the kind of the way the relationship started and the childhood trauma and then the way they left and they always had a car
02:45:02 way they left and they always had a car and but I just I I then just thought I'm being ridiculous cuz I'm not an activist. There's no reason for me to be a target. I why would anyone target me? And I remember saying to her
02:45:13 target me? And I remember saying to her and she's like she said maybe you should she said I think that sounds ridiculous. I don't think Carlo was an undercover cop but she said speak to someone. And I was like, "Okay, I'm going to be a will." And I'd been in not in touch with
02:45:25 will." And I'd been in not in touch with people for a while cuz I'd moved out and I' I'd had children, you know, but it was always it was kind of sitting there for a while. And then when I finally got a message in 2015,
02:45:37 a message in 2015, it was a shock but not a shock at the same time. It was like it dropped. And I thought, well, my senses were correct. I thought maybe actually my, you know, when the hairs on the back of my neck went up, I was right. And it's it's
02:45:50 went up, I was right. And it's it's bizarre and it's completely mad, but actually it's true. So [snorts] you you deal with that at page 27 of your book, page 33 of the epic version. You had a you'd been in
02:46:01 epic version. You had a you'd been in contact had some contact from people you knew previously and then you met up I think with some of them. I met up with some people. Yeah. Including um Dan Gilman. [clears throat] Uh and they told you that they suspected
02:46:14 Uh and they told you that they suspected Mr. Saraki was an undercover police officer. Is that right? Yeah. By the time I met them, they they seem to have quite a lot of quite strong evidence. So, it wasn't a suspicion. It
02:46:26 evidence. So, it wasn't a suspicion. It was a we we know we know he is. Um we don't actually know his real name, but we pretty much know. And because so many of the other revelations had come into the public domain at that point, it
02:46:38 into the public domain at that point, it it had become an established fact that this was happening and it had become an established fact that groups were being, you know, certain groups were being targeted. So, it was almost
02:46:50 I wouldn't say it was a done deal when I met them. There was a lot of stuff we didn't know, but we certainly knew that they certainly knew that he was an undercover police officer and and you thought they were right and I 100% believed them.
02:47:03 and I 100% believed them. What was your reaction on finally realizing that? I think it's it's it's mindblowing really. It's mindblowing because you've you've kind
02:47:15 mindblowing because you've you've kind of got two lives. So you've got the life that you've lived believing that that was the relationship and that was how it ended and then you've got the retrospective life of going back and saying no actually this was the life. So
02:47:29 saying no actually this was the life. So it's it's like someone with a with a dual identity has created a dual life for you and you've got to try and piece that together and it's so hard. I think
02:47:40 that together and it's so hard. I think people who've experienced it understand it intrinsically and people who haven't don't understand it and they ask you lots of weird questions about it and they say did you not suspect anything
02:47:51 they say did you not suspect anything and I'm like no I didn't. I never suspected anything and that's the thing and I think one of the things I felt very strongly was because of the work that I'd done in mental health for years I felt like a complete idiot. I felt
02:48:03 I felt like a complete idiot. I felt like how could I be fooled particularly by the mental health stuff. That was the bit that sort of, you know, all of it played heavily on my mind, but that bit really, really,
02:48:15 mind, but that bit really, really, really got to me because I I started to feel that I wasn't capable and that I wasn't capable of doing my job. So, yeah, it was it was tough, but I I mean,
02:48:26 yeah, it was it was tough, but I I mean, I kind I threw myself into it as well. I really threw myself into trying to uncover it and unpick things. Um, so it was a whole new world. My life was turned upside down and it was a whole
02:48:37 turned upside down and it was a whole new world and I kind of threw things up in the air and started to my time was taken up by things I had no intention of doing at that point in my life as a 40some woman with children and a kind of
02:48:51 40some woman with children and a kind of responsible job. So it threw everything up in the air. Can I just ask you for a few a few more details about how finding out that he was an undercover officer impacted upon you? And I just want to take you to some
02:49:02 you? And I just want to take you to some bits of what you say in your book. Okay. So firstly at at page 93 which is page 99 of the epic version you say I have a playlist of songs that remind me of him [snorts] and I listen to it still
02:49:15 of him [snorts] and I listen to it still this is a form of self harm I think it's not healthy um can you give me a little bit more of a sense of of what you were thinking around that time when you
02:49:26 thinking around that time when you describe um almost dwelling on it as a form of hurting yourself I think I became obsessive I I remember I I mean I've I've always been a bit of
02:49:37 I I mean I've I've always been a bit of someone who struggled with sleeping, but I would stay up very late and I would, you know, read things about the whole issue and the whole scandal. I would listen to I made a playlist of songs
02:49:48 listen to I made a playlist of songs that I that kind of tracked almost like the the songs became a narrative journey and sort of allowed me to track the relationship and the timeline of it because I was trying to fit things together as well. I was utterly
02:50:01 together as well. I was utterly frustrated by the bits that were missing. So, I had it's like a jigsaw and you've got a few bits, but the bits that were missing, I was obsessed with finding them. I was obsessed with where
02:50:12 finding them. I was obsessed with where all those things fitted together and I didn't understand why. I still I mean, I believed that this had happened, but I didn't understand why. And the why was like a huge question mark. Um, so when I
02:50:24 like a huge question mark. Um, so when I say it was like a form of self harm, I think it's just like if you keep picking at a scab repeatedly and it's not going to heal. I I was also very conscious that it wouldn't heal until I knew the
02:50:36 that it wouldn't heal until I knew the truth.
02:50:37 truth. Yes.
02:50:38 Yes. And part of that huge truth was knowing his real identity. So, you know, the the cover name we knew, but I was utterly utterly obsessed with finding out who he
02:50:49 utterly obsessed with finding out who he really was. That was just going round and round. Yes. I see. Um, page 130 of your book 136 of the epic version, you talk about how you've been um, struggling with your
02:51:02 how you've been um, struggling with your autoimmune condition um, since 2012 and you'd had a flare up in 2016. Yeah. Did do you think that there was some um, physical effects from finding out um,
02:51:15 physical effects from finding out um, this revelation about him being a undercover officer? Well, having an autoimmune disease is that there are kind of several factors
02:51:26 that there are kind of several factors that impact on it and stress is one of the biggest ones. So stress and that stress was so huge and so sudden
02:51:38 that stress was so huge and so sudden and so bizarre that that just kind of sent my immune system into because my immune system attacks itself. My my body attacks me basically. Um, so I had huge
02:51:49 attacks me basically. Um, so I had huge flare and I was very physically unwell but also mentally very fragile at the same time which is not a great combination. No. Uh, page 187 of the book, page 193
02:52:03 No. Uh, page 187 of the book, page 193 of the epic version, you you say that in um October 2018, you'd become quite paranoid about being followed and you were very jumpy and anxious. Is that right?
02:52:14 right? Yeah, I did believe I was followed once still. I firmly believe that I was followed. I had been followed. You reached a a sort of level of hyper awareness. I was hyper vigilant. Um and that that
02:52:26 I was hyper vigilant. Um and that that was never my natural state of being. That was a very new thing for me. Um but I I also as I say I do believe I had been followed. So there was a level
02:52:37 had been followed. So there was a level where I was hypervigilant and I was suspicious but I felt that some of that was grounded in reality. Page 160 of the book, page 166 of the
02:52:49 Page 160 of the book, page 166 of the epic version, you talk about having had panic attacks in 2000, aged about 28, you'd had counseling and then the therapist declined to continue with you
02:53:00 therapist declined to continue with you after one session, advising that you actually really needed long-term psychotherapy. Is that right? Yeah.
02:53:06 Yeah. So, there'd clearly been some relatively severe mental effects um from this revelation uh on you. Yeah. Um, at page 161, um, of the book, page
02:53:20 Um, at page 161, um, of the book, page 167, the epic version, you say in 2005 you did see a psychologist and you had some CBT, cognitive behavior therapy. Is that right? Yeah.
02:53:30 Yeah. Um, did did that assist? That was actually quite helpful. I think that was useful. It was short and sharp and it it did seem to it
02:53:41 and sharp and it it did seem to it seemed to help at that point. it seemed to kind of allow me to turn a bit of a corner based on the understanding I I had of what had happened to me at the time. So,
02:53:51 time. So, and uh at page 194 to 195 of the book, pages 200 to 201, you talk about the continued impact this has had upon you. Uh nightmares, feeling distant from your
02:54:03 Uh nightmares, feeling distant from your children, withdrawn, affected at work, intrusive thoughts and smells and things of that nature. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah, there was a particularly bad period with that with
02:54:14 particularly bad period with that with intrusive thoughts and um I was I struggled with work because of the type of work that I was doing because I was working with people with significant mental health problems at the time.
02:54:27 mental health problems at the time. Um, finally then just on this topic about you and the impacts upon you and page 127 of the book, page 133 of the epic version, you say this, "My body was
02:54:40 epic version, you say this, "My body was used against my will. I did not consent to being a sexual experiment. I did not consent to being a mistress. I did not consent to being all over the world by a man who did not exist." Um,
02:54:52 world by a man who did not exist." Um, that's clearly the way you you felt when you wrote the book. Is that still the way you feel now? I do and I think I probably feel it more strongly than ever. I don't think any of that subsides. I think it becomes and
02:55:04 that subsides. I think it becomes and one of the reasons it becomes even more so is when you hear other people's evidence and then when you also put together the fact that in many ways this was a a strategy. It was an overarching
02:55:15 was a a strategy. It was an overarching strategy. So all of that is true and probably more true. Um,
02:55:23 what sort of impact did this um, revelation that Carlos Iraqi was in fact undercover police officer have on your family? Particularly, I'm thinking about maybe your mom and sister when they
02:55:34 maybe your mom and sister when they found out. I think the whole process is the initial shock and then the trying to again fill in those pieces that are missing and
02:55:46 in those pieces that are missing and weird things just jump out. So, people know and they understand this has happened, but then a year later they'll say, "But hang on, that thing wasn't real then. That whole thing that we did or that whole event where we all were or
02:55:58 or that whole event where we all were or that you know what Carlo said or did then or that present he gave us there it's like a kind of it's never ending really. It doesn't stop. It's not it's not time limited." Um, and my family are
02:56:11 not time limited." Um, and my family are amazing and they've been, you know, they were brilliant and hugely supportive and it's also true to say that it had a huge impact on them. So it's not just me who needs their support. They need that
02:56:22 needs their support. They need that there's a level that that needs to be understood that the intrusion was so huge that that impacts on everybody in the whole kind of unit. And how do you feel about that impact
02:56:33 And how do you feel about that impact upon them?
02:56:38 I think angry would be too wouldn't be a strong enough word. Um, I it's malicious and cruel and unnecessary and a deceit that's just beyond beyond
02:56:50 a deceit that's just beyond beyond anything that we understand to be human or humane. And I I think I my kind of personal
02:57:02 And I I think I my kind of personal belief is that the level of the intrusion of this entire scandal is very underestimated by people outside rooms like this because they don't see how
02:57:14 like this because they don't see how deep it is and they don't see how how the impact just goes on and on and on because it doesn't make any sense to anyone.
02:57:23 anyone. Yes. Um, Donna, those are all the questions that I have for you in a public hearing. Okay.
02:57:29 Okay. Before we break, um, is there anything else in public that you would like to say
02:57:35 say to the chair inquiry? [snorts] I think one of the things I do want to say and I do want to say it in public because it affects so many people is that you know we talk a lot about the you know the the
02:57:46 we talk a lot about the you know the the events and we talk about the sexual relationships and we talk about what happened and who was affected but I think there's also this massive massive problem about taking away people's autonomy. It's a kind of theft. And I
02:57:58 autonomy. It's a kind of theft. And I think as a woman and as you know, I don't want to speak for the other women, but I I feel this that our our bodily autonomy was stolen from us. And not just in the in the fact that we we did
02:58:10 just in the in the fact that we we did not give consent, but also the time that we chose to have children, whether we have children, how difficult that became, you know, the relationships that we ended up in, the issues of trust that
02:58:21 we ended up in, the issues of trust that came for that. And it's that spans your whole life. It doesn't stop. You know, there's the period of the relationship itself. There's the period when you find out. There's the aftermath. There's, you
02:58:32 out. There's the aftermath. There's, you know, doing all of this stuff which is quite difficult. But the entire autonomy of your own body has been stolen in a way that was strategic. And I think that's something I just want to kind of
02:58:43 that's something I just want to kind of highlight as an overarching thing. Thank you. Thank you. Um, sir, is that a convenient moment to break for lunch a little early? Certainly. Um
02:58:54 Certainly. Um we'll resume at 10 to 2. Um and there will then be a private hearing. Um when the private hearing has finished, then uh we'll [clears throat] re reset the
02:59:06 uh we'll [clears throat] re reset the room and um there will then be the opportunity for questions to be put openly through council to the inquiry and for you to be re-examined by your
02:59:17 and for you to be re-examined by your council.
02:59:17 council. Okay.
02:59:18 Okay. Um I hope you understand the process. It sounds a bit cumbersome, but I think it'll work. That sounds good. Thank you. Until 10 to 2. Thank you, sir.