The witness 'Monica' provides evidence on her involvement with Reclaim the Streets (RTS) in the mid-1990s, describing the group's philosophy of direct action against car culture. She details her relationship with undercover officer Jim 'Boiling', discussing his use of mirroring techniques to build trust and the emotional impact of his sudden behavioral shifts.
00:00:00 that's known to the inquiry is about a weekly meeting on the 21st of November 1995.
00:00:07 1995. So, does that ring true that he was in the group from about that time? Yeah.
00:00:13 Yeah. And at the time, was he getting to know people, fitting in in the same way that perhaps you were? Um,
00:00:24 yeah. I mean, it's a long time ago, so I don't have precise memories, but I would expect that me and my boyfriend at
00:00:35 would expect that me and my boyfriend at the same at the time would have represented safe people to get to know. So, fitting in on the edges and finding your way in. Like there's a little story
00:00:47 your way in. Like there's a little story to illustrate that. So once we were picked up on the way to the new bureau protest just as it was getting dark from a service station uh we were hitching and the guy said I wouldn't normally pick people up at this time but you two
00:00:59 pick people up at this time but you two look so harmless I thought I'd pick you up. So it's kind of like that. So I think I don't know I don't have precise memories but I conject that we were good entry points.
00:01:10 entry points. You describe yourself in your witness statement as one of the first points of contact for boiling when you joined the group.
00:01:17 group. Yeah. Is that why? Yeah, he was something someone that I probably felt safe talking to and I kind of
00:01:24 of Yeah.
00:01:24 Yeah. And what was your impression of him?
00:01:29 It's difficult to know like these things are quite subtle as well. When you feel safe for me in someone's company, it's just like, oh yeah, you know, so you don't. So I think I probably felt
00:01:41 don't. So I think I probably felt comfortable talking to him. Was he single at the time? I didn't know. didn't ask I was he welll liked amongst the group
00:01:53 liked amongst the group he I don't remember to be honest he was just somebody I knew from the beginning to there's other people I could remember that I knew at that time so it like I'd be I'd be saying more
00:02:05 so it like I'd be I'd be saying more than I actually remember if I was to say he was there and I knew him I'd like to ask you about relationships generally within the RTS group.
00:02:17 generally within the RTS group. Um, you say that Jim or Boiling met you uh with your boyfriend at the outset and would he have known that you were in a relationship with your boyfriend
00:02:28 relationship with your boyfriend and others knew that? They knew as a couple, did they? Yeah. And how usual or unusual was monogamy uh in relationships in the
00:02:40 monogamy uh in relationships in the group at that time? It wasn't something reclaim the streets, as far as I know, ever discussed. Uh, if we're talking about reclaim the streets, I
00:02:55 I don't it wasn't [laughter] a thing. It wasn't an issue. I think generally you assume people in a relationship are monogous.
00:03:03 monogous. And there are groups of people that I knew at the time later on that were quite good at polyamory or that kind of thing, but it wasn't like a normal
00:03:14 thing, but it wasn't like a normal thing. It wasn't like it wasn't a free love commune or anything like that. It was just some people and certain were kind of more free, but I think most people were just more like Yeah.
00:03:28 people were just more like Yeah. How usual was it for people to be in sexual relationships with others in the group?
00:03:38 I think it was probably a [laughter] cross-section of of normal society really in relation to that. I mean, I turned up with this person because I
00:03:49 turned up with this person because I come to London and we were in a relationship, but it wasn't something that
00:03:55 Yeah. I don't think it was massively normal. It was occasional. It wasn't like lots of everyone in like a lot of individuals came to reclaim the streets. Did you have a sense of how many people
00:04:06 Did you have a sense of how many people within the group might have relationships with people outside the group that had nothing to do with the group?
00:04:14 Yeah, I think that you would assume that you know that people you know and I wouldn't necessarily ask people about that kind of thing. I kind of tend to wait for people to
00:04:26 I kind of tend to wait for people to tell me things. Do you know what I mean? About themselves. So yeah, that wouldn't that wouldn't have been an issue at all. Like thinking about the people that I knew at the beginning of that time. Yeah. I wouldn't have thought anything
00:04:38 Yeah. I wouldn't have thought anything if they had a partner or didn't or if they suddenly said one day, "Oh yeah, I that's my partner I'm meeting." You know, because it was the meetings were one day a week. So is it fair to say that not everybody was necessarily aware
00:04:51 that not everybody was necessarily aware of everybody's sex lives in the group? Massively. Yeah. It was a it was an open meeting. Anyone could turn up to reclaim the streets. It wasn't like a closedknit group like
00:05:03 It wasn't like a closedknit group like that. It was open. And
00:05:07 And were single people less accepted or trusted within the group? No.
00:05:14 No. No. Was there anything riding on the sexual relationships that people had that would determine how involved you were in the actions taken by RTS?
00:05:25 were in the actions taken by RTS? No.
00:05:29 Um, when you first started attending the RTS meetings and you attended with your boyfriend, was he already a trusted person within the RTS group?
00:05:45 Reclaim the Streets as you will probably come into. It's like um yeah, he had been around for a while. He um been involved in the first two
00:05:56 um been involved in the first two reclaim the streets um street parties. Um
00:06:02 Um yeah, so he was he was someone who this word trusted is complex. So
00:06:14 did he help you integrate more quickly than if you'd had turned up on your own perhaps?
00:06:19 perhaps? Yeah, cuz for me if I wouldn't have turned up on my own to be honest wouldn't have happened. But yeah, so being with him was like um my way into that that world. And had you
00:06:32 my way into that that world. And had you turned up with a friend, non-romantic relationship, some with somebody who was already within the group, would that have made a difference? The fact that you weren't in a sexual relationship, did that make a
00:06:44 a sexual relationship, did that make a difference at all? No.
00:06:48 No. Um
00:06:53 would it have my question really is would it have been harder for you to integrate and be involved in the activities? So I have watched the traitors and what
00:07:07 So I have watched the traitors and what when you think there's a like the police might be there might be plain close policemen at your meeting or people who you know so you're suspicious of outsiders on some level or you wait a
00:07:19 outsiders on some level or you wait a little bit there's levels of trust isn't there but there's the first trust area so I think when people are a bit weird or a bit not outside the normal they tend to get
00:07:30 outside the normal they tend to get suspicion more than the people who aren't. So that a coming with someone that you knew to a rec street was already there was probably helpful because it's a sense of
00:07:45 that these people can be trusted. Do do you understand what I mean? Because we we were aware that um plane close policemen might attend our meetings on a regular basis. So people would have a suspicion of maybe who they would be. So
00:07:58 suspicion of maybe who they would be. So if you came with someone you knew someone already like as an introduction and that would give you a little bit more credence if you just turned up but it wasn't
00:08:09 but it wasn't it was a human thing not a Yeah. When you broke up with your boyfriend in July 1996 you say you stayed close with him thereafter. Did the change in your
00:08:22 him thereafter. Did the change in your relationship status impact on your work in the RTS? No.
00:08:31 No. Nobody became suspicious of the fact that you were single? No.
00:08:37 No. And was that any different for a single man in the group? No.
00:08:43 No. We've heard from a number of UCOs in this inquiry that it was not sustainable to remain single and effectively infiltrate a group. What do you say about that in terms of what you
00:08:55 about that in terms of what you experienced?
00:09:08 I think it's a tactic for a reason.
00:09:19 I think it's a tactic for a reason. Um,
00:09:24 but I think there obviously are other options. They don't probably have so many benefits that that one might have. Like the options have been discussed already at the inquiry, haven't they?
00:09:35 already at the inquiry, haven't they? The options to not have sex with people who think you're somebody else. Um,
00:09:46 I think humans want to trust each other
00:09:55 and groups like Reclaim the Streets at the most central part relied on trust, relied on um
00:10:07 relied on um commitment, um being on the same page, wanting the same wanting to have the same discussions, wanting to raise the same issues that we felt were being ignored
00:10:19 issues that we felt were being ignored by the society which we lived in at our peril. So we wanted to address those by making a statement that might get the
00:10:31 making a statement that might get the things we were campaigning about some interest.
00:10:35 interest. So does that make sense in relation to the question? I think you could not have a relationship and still be a trusted member of reclaim the streets or well not member but person.
00:10:46 not member but person. Okay. Thank you. Can I ask you a bit about Reclaim the Streets and that that the purpose? You've already touched on that already about um uh highlighting
00:10:57 that already about um uh highlighting some of the problems with the society that you were in, but um you address it in some detail in your witness statement and you say that RTS aimed to highlight the negative impacts of car culture.
00:11:09 the negative impacts of car culture. That was one of the the objectives. Um, and it was a group that felt direct action was the only way of getting attention within the existing political structures and we were seeking positive
00:11:22 structures and we were seeking positive social change. Does that reflect generally what RTS was about? Okay. Um, so reclaim the streets was part of a wider
00:11:35 reclaim the streets was part of a wider story. So reclaim the streets began just before the M11 protest. So there was an M11 there was the road of the M11 was built through Leighton Stone and it
00:11:47 was built through Leighton Stone and it was demolished lots of houses and obviously this was towards the beginning well not the beginning but like the highlighting the effect that fossil fuels were having on the environment and
00:11:58 fuels were having on the environment and the climate change. So it seemed that if you wanted to consider the effects of climate change that it would be good to reduce car use
00:12:10 that it would be good to reduce car use to really address one of the major causes
00:12:15 causes and also
00:12:17 and also the relationship of humans dominating and owning the environment and thinking it's theirs to do what they will with. So here's an ancient forest. Let's chop
00:12:28 So here's an ancient forest. Let's chop it down. Here's Twifford down this ancient site. Let's build a road straight through it. Those things to the people who were brought to that feeling
00:12:40 people who were brought to that feeling were things that shouldn't be done that straightforwardly. These were special places. Sometimes they were sacred places
00:12:47 places and also they went through communities like in the M11 in Leightonstone. So there was a desire to address the dominant paradigm of capitalism. consume consume du du duh and so these movements
00:13:00 consume du du duh and so these movements arose from that. So reclaim the streets had begun to address the I think in London and encourage cycling and that kind of thing using different forms of
00:13:11 kind of thing using different forms of transport but that kind of got subsumed in the greater M11 protest and then when that was over reclaim the streets started up but there was also the road protests in Stanworth Valley in
00:13:22 protests in Stanworth Valley in Blackburn in Newbury and Twford down so there was a a a movement in some level and reclaim the streets was part of that.
00:13:32 that. So it yeah the the SDS annual report of 9596
00:13:39 9596 describes it uh like this. It may be worth just getting this up on the screen. It's MPS0728967
00:13:49 page nine about halfway down the page.
00:13:56 It says, "RTS is a group of extremists with the potential and the ambition to cause serious disorder and disruption in London and elsewhere in pursuit of their
00:14:07 London and elsewhere in pursuit of their primary belief that the motorc car is evil and their subsidiary belief that big business, the establishment, etc. is also evil." Do you agree with that SDS
00:14:19 also evil." Do you agree with that SDS description of RTS? Reclaim the streets are the work of the devil. It's like I mean the language is ridiculous. It's It's not designed to understand what Reclaim the Streets is about. It's
00:14:31 what Reclaim the Streets is about. It's um an attempt to demonize it. You've said already that the meetings that RTS had were open meetings. Anybody
00:14:42 that RTS had were open meetings. Anybody could attend. Yeah.
00:14:44 Yeah. Um and
00:14:48 anybody who wanted to become involved could become involved in different actions. Um, and you say that during your time at the RTS the structure and the key organizers changed based on who
00:15:01 the key organizers changed based on who was most up for doing and organizing particular actions. Is that right? Reclaim the streets in a many ways was an umbrella group for people to take
00:15:12 an umbrella group for people to take action. So it encouraged other people to do things.
00:15:18 Well, not it because it was that was the nature. There was an interesting group of people who worked really well together that had a creativity and inspiration and
00:15:29 and those things often are hard to replicate but the encouragement from those people were always to do replication. So, reclaim the streets parties, street parties, um, where you take over a space
00:15:42 parties, um, where you take over a space that's often divided. People are divided by the car and you create a a different place where different things are possible. There's banners, there's a sand pit, there's decorations, people
00:15:54 sand pit, there's decorations, people are connecting to each other, people are talking. That's a expression of something that's different, some way of living that's different. And so they became they went on in lots of different
00:16:05 became they went on in lots of different places.
00:16:06 places. We're going to come to some of those specifically as well because I'd like to take you to some of the particular intelligence reports on those street parties.
00:16:15 parties. Your key area of interest was that the environment and reduction of fossil fuel um and for society to embrace an environmentally sound way of being involved in the world in general.
00:16:28 involved in the world in general. Yeah.
00:16:30 Yeah. Okay. Uh you say that you became more consumed in environmental activism. Did that take on a significant role in your life?
00:16:38 life? Yeah, I did. Um you lived in a repurposed empty house commonly known as a squat. I think I did.
00:16:48 I did. Um and that was in Hackne in North London
00:16:53 London with other envir environmentally minded people.
00:16:58 people. Yeah. Yes. Not all of whom were involved in RTS. No. No.
00:17:05 No. No. Can I ask you about some specific actions um that took place? Um
00:17:13 Um you say that paragraph 2.3 of your witness statement, the the group discussed issues for possible direct action, suitable causes to support, share, and publicize actions that they
00:17:24 share, and publicize actions that they were involved with. Um, what do you mean by direct action?
00:17:34 [clears throat]
00:17:39 Okay. Um, so within the society there's certain straightforward ways of protesting like going on a demonstration. These are
00:17:50 going on a demonstration. These are considered legitimate, but they they don't have a lot of power to increase debate um raise issues. They're very good to be ignored. Very
00:18:02 They're very good to be ignored. Very good at ignoring them. Um and particularly with how the press is in this country as well, um it's hard to get attention. And also when somebody's destroying a piece of nature or
00:18:14 destroying a piece of nature or destroying something that you care about,
00:18:18 about, you would take direct action. You would put yourself between that um destruction or thing in order to create change. So in a way direct action
00:18:31 create change. So in a way direct action is about taking that into a more focused form in order to disrupt things that you that you feel are not benefiting or
00:18:42 that you feel are not benefiting or good. It's a way of raising a voice and sometimes it's necessary because the the status quo carries on and
00:18:53 the the status quo carries on and anything
00:18:56 anything there's an author who describes modernity as a play and there's a massive audience and modernity carries on and everyone sometimes people debate oh it should be this way or it should be that way but
00:19:07 this way or it should be that way but most of the people are in the audience and they don't get a voice they don't get a part on the stage and some people are totally blacked have a corner don't really exist. It's a bit like that. So for people where those things aren't
00:19:19 for people where those things aren't being discussed, you kind of have to step forward to take action. It's the only thing that's really left to you. And in some parts of the world, it results in death.
00:19:30 results in death. So a recognized form of protest or demonstration, to what extent would that involve criminal activity?
00:19:43 Some direct action does involve criminal I mean like subvertising that's criminal damage isn't it? If you write something on a billboard that would be a low level. Um
00:19:57 it's I don't really know what to say about that. Ideally not. And is it criminal damage to glue your hand to a building?
00:20:08 damage to glue your hand to a building? Probably. But it it's also a way of making a statement. What about public disorder? Was that necessary to raise awareness?
00:20:19 Was that necessary to raise awareness? So we come back to the um description of reclaim the streets as evil. Yeah.
00:20:26 Yeah. So a reclaim the streets party could be considered as public disorder because it does create disorder of cars. It's trying to attract attention to a a a very salient issue in our society, how
00:20:39 very salient issue in our society, how cars divide people from each other. But it's also an event. It's also something that's trying to express something different. It's trying to express another way of being in the world.
00:20:52 another way of being in the world. And I think that's really key to what Reclaim the Streets was about fundamentally. It's very difficult to change this world. And so it's there's
00:21:03 change this world. And so it's there's not a perfect science to it. In fact, it's pretty impossible. But reclaim the streets, that desire for the street party was to create a different narrative and to create a different
00:21:15 narrative and to create a different experience of what a road could be, you know, and how roads enclosed people and separated people, how hard it is for someone to cross a six-lane road,
00:21:28 someone to cross a six-lane road, you know, that kind of thing. So you could call that public disorder, but you could also call it an expression of something else. In a way, it's a little bit of both. Thank you. I've just been asked to
00:21:39 Thank you. I've just been asked to clarify with you if you are comfortable with uh uh saying that you lived in Hackme.
00:21:47 Hackme. I actually I don't don't think it matters that much. So if it's okay, that's fine. Uh going back to this issue of public disorder um boiling in his witness
00:21:59 disorder um boiling in his witness statement
00:22:01 statement which we don't need to bring up but he he says that RTS actions usually resulted in public disorder. The group's tactic was to hold street parties,
00:22:12 tactic was to hold street parties, blockade roads with vehicles and scaffolding structures. Tripods, damaging vehicles and smashing windows was common. Do you recognize that? Is that something
00:22:23 Do you recognize that? Is that something you would it did happen. Reason Streets was fundamentally situationist in many ways. So it wanted to create a spectacle. Um something that changed the normal reality. So they would and boiling did
00:22:37 reality. So they would and boiling did from what I know actually buy one of these cars at one point but um create this little car crash because that would serve to block the road. So two people rent old bangers slightly have a crash
00:22:48 rent old bangers slightly have a crash and then a sound system comes out from nowhere. The music starts playing. There's people on tripods blocking the other end of the road. People come and make hang banners between the lamposts and get a sound a sand pit for the
00:23:01 and get a sound a sand pit for the children to play in. And all the people who've come to the place, have a party and celebrate being alive together. That does block a road that does stop traffic moving. So the normal system
00:23:13 traffic moving. So the normal system gets broken a little bit, but there's this other event in the middle of it. That's what Reclaim the Streets was about. Was there ever communication with police about plans for a big demo or
00:23:24 police about plans for a big demo or action in preparation for an event or was that an absolute no no? There was definitely um police liaison, but the idea of where the street party was to
00:23:36 idea of where the street party was to take place was a secret in order to allow it to happen.
00:23:47 um publication. Um so did you publicize these events? Yes. So there would be a meeting point publicized and people would um arrive at the meeting point
00:24:02 would um arrive at the meeting point and would that be uh publicized to the group uh affiliated groups or more? The meeting point is known to everybody. Okay. It wasn't a secret.
00:24:19 Um, you've already said that you were aware of police surveillance on the the group and that could be in the form of an undercover police officer attending an open meeting. Was there any other form of surveillance
00:24:30 Was there any other form of surveillance that you were aware of?
00:24:34 No. Sorry.
00:24:39 I'd like to ask um about your friendship with Jim first. Um
00:24:49 when you first met him towards the end of 1995, beginning of 1996, who was it that first made the introduction? Can you remember that kind of detail?
00:25:01 of detail? No.
00:25:02 No. You say in your witness statement that it probably would have been him that started the conversation. I would think so. Yeah. Knowing how I I was. Yeah. Um and you say at paragraph 3.3 that he
00:25:16 Um and you say at paragraph 3.3 that he expressed an interest in you. Can I ask you what do you mean by that? Do you mean just asking about your life, about topics, or a romantic interest?
00:25:27 topics, or a romantic interest? I I don't know if I can honestly say more about that. Um
00:25:34 because you get to know people step by step, don't you? Like um so in my work I I'm a a carer and when I first go into someone else's home I know
00:25:46 first go into someone else's home I know them a little bit, but but the second time I know them a bit more and the third time. So I think it works like that.
00:25:54 that. So he was somebody that I must have felt comfortable talking to or that would have increased over time but that's to be honest honestly as I can say it's a long time ago and I don't remember
00:26:05 long time ago and I don't remember precisely how it unfolded but I would imagine it was like that because he started to feel like somebody I knew and that it was okay to talk to.
00:26:17 that it was okay to talk to. You say that between January and October 1996, you got to know Boiling better. You would go to pubs after the meetings and he made you feel comfortable and
00:26:29 and he made you feel comfortable and safe and you also reference mirroring skills.
00:26:35 skills. Um the inquiry recognizes this is similar to the experiences of other deceived women, this sense of mirroring. Do you want to explain a little bit more about that?
00:26:46 about that? Okay. how you experience that. Well,
00:26:50 Well, I can't really do it in that exact way, but I think mirroring is about making people feel safe. Making people, you know, it's like with AI, it's like certain things where they look at humans
00:27:01 certain things where they look at humans that if you give them a couple of strokes like things certain say things complimentary or certain things, then they start to feel more comfortable. And I think the mirroring techniques were that I didn't feel comfortable with most
00:27:12 that I didn't feel comfortable with most people.
00:27:14 people. Yeah. I felt comfortable with Jim. So I think that's in a way what I'm saying. I think he was probably behaving in ways that he'd been trained and wanting people to feel comfortable and
00:27:25 wanting people to feel comfortable and safe with him. So I did because it was more rare for me to feel comfortable with people than it was. Does that make sense?
00:27:36 Does that make sense? Were you sharing information intimate information about each other just about your your your lives? No, I think we were probably just chatting about the meeting and having a laugh and just
00:27:49 meeting and having a laugh and just talking.
00:27:50 talking. Yeah, I don't think it was like Yeah,
00:27:55 Yeah, I
00:27:57 I he was somebody that I hung hung out with in the pub after. Someone I talked to, someone I felt safe with. I can't really say more than that. Did you seem to have much in common with
00:28:08 Did you seem to have much in common with him?
00:28:09 him? Well, we had reclaimed the streets and our activism. We had why we went to meetings every week. That's what we had in common. That's that's the commonality of the movement is like that sense that
00:28:20 of the movement is like that sense that you could be at the New Road protest camp and you chat to somebody who was also at New You had something in common. That was your bond. And what did he tell you about himself?
00:28:31 And what did he tell you about himself? Not a lot, but I knew that he worked. I knew that he was gym. I knew, you know, I tend not to ask praying questions too much. You know, I tend to wait for
00:28:42 much. You know, I tend to wait for people to tell me things. Did you understand he was around 30, early 30s? Yeah.
00:28:49 Yeah. There's about five year age gap between you both.
00:28:53 you both. Um self-employed. Yeah.
00:28:57 Yeah. Or employed with a van. And that was why he needed the van, was it?
00:29:03 it? Yeah.
00:29:04 Yeah. Was it to do with house clearances or building work? To be honest, I thought it was more building work. I've since disclosure about this I've found out if like but I thought he just did stuff like trades
00:29:17 thought he just did stuff like trades kind of thing and did the use of that van come in handy in terms of gathering information on the group surprisingly so. Yeah. Well, no one had we were we all cycled everywhere so
00:29:29 we were we all cycled everywhere so nobody had a van and he offered to give people lifts back.
00:29:34 back. Yeah.
00:29:36 Yeah. And during those lifts, conversations would be had or he would be able to um get to know more about people and what was going on in the group. I mean, this occurred in our
00:29:47 I mean, this occurred in our relationship, but I think I put in my statement. There was one time because I was always paranoid that people were talking about me and uh we got out the van at the end of him dropping everyone off at his flat and he's like he's laughing. He's going to talking about in
00:29:59 laughing. He's going to talking about in your van. didn't realize cuz he was obviously listening to every word and I just sat staring out the window and but he you know and it was he thought it was quite funny which in a way it was.
00:30:11 quite funny which in a way it was. What about his family background? Did he tell you that he was adopted? It was this was only really when we were in a relationship but yes he told me he was adopted and he didn't want to know who his parents were which I thought was
00:30:22 who his parents were which I thought was strange.
00:30:23 strange. Anything more about his family background?
00:30:29 Not really. I didn't I don't think I necessarily asked a lot. I mean, he told me a story about I put in my statement, but yeah, it was.
00:30:41 it was. Okay. [snorts] At that time in early 1996,
00:30:46 1996, um, your mother was ill. Is that right? Yeah.
00:30:51 Yeah. Um, and and she died in April 1996. Yeah.
00:30:57 Yeah. And You were obviously very young to lose your mother at that time. Do you remember if you spent time with Jim around that stage? Was he aware of that?
00:31:09 around that stage? Was he aware of that? I don't know because that was that was in 1996. So at the time of my mother's dying and death, I was mostly um I went to reclaim street meeting but I was at
00:31:21 to reclaim street meeting but I was at Newbury protest um in the tree camps and I was also with my boyfriend who I turned up with. So that was a very deep experience for both of us really. Um
00:31:33 of us really. Um yeah so I think at that time I mean people would have known I think so your friends within the group would have known what you were going through
00:31:44 have known what you were going through [sighs and gasps] would they it's difficult to remember precisely um she became ill in the February and she died in the April and um it was 30
00:31:56 she died in the April and um it was 30 years ago this year and so the Newbury bypass protests um which are really significant media wise and the the biggest protest they started in the
00:32:07 biggest protest they started in the January. Um and so I know I was arrested for um obstruction of the sheriff being evicted from the road protest camp.
00:32:20 evicted from the road protest camp. I think
00:32:21 I think yeah just after my mother died I think. Okay. Um I'd like to ask you about some of the actions through RTS that you were
00:32:33 actions through RTS that you were involved with and Boiling was also involved with. So the first one which I think we'll be able to look at before we go to the midm morning break is at at behind tab B2 MPS0246485.
00:32:52 And this is an an action from the 13th of June 1996. It's a street party at the M41
00:33:00 M41 street party. July
00:33:03 July July.
00:33:03 July. Oh, sorry. Did I say June? 13th of July 1996.
00:33:10 So that's MPS0246485.
00:33:24 Is it it should be coming up on the screen? It's not there yet. Shortly. Um, what you say about this, you address it at paragraph 3.5 uh 3.6 of your witness statement and you say at
00:33:35 of your witness statement and you say at that time Jim or Ming had a similar status to you in RTS. So this is within about six or seven months uh uh of of
00:33:47 about six or seven months uh uh of of him joining. You were both trusted to be given need to know information before an event, but that would have been different for each of you depending on what your role was within the action. Is that right?
00:33:58 that right? Yeah. So, I didn't know what he was doing and I didn't ask.
00:34:05 Uh did you understand that he drove the organizer or one of the organizers around in the van to do a wrecky around the proposed site? Only after when we were in a
00:34:16 Only after when we were in a relationship. you told me that story and your role was to uh paint banners contributed to the decor of the event. Um we can see here it's now up on the
00:34:29 Um we can see here it's now up on the screen in front of you. It should be
00:34:33 Yeah. So it's the one behind uh tab B2. Just check this.
00:34:46 MPS 0246485
00:35:15 Um, effectively this was it. It hopefully
00:35:27 effectively it was a big uh roadblock party with about 5,000 people attending. Is that right? Uh it was it was big. I don't [laughter]
00:35:38 Uh it was it was big. I don't [laughter] I don't know how many people. Effectively you blocked the motorway and as you've said pits, banners, a music system um put in place dug holes in the
00:35:51 system um put in place dug holes in the the road was I didn't know about that at the time but I knew about not an attempt to plant trees. It was a situationist thing. It it was like a piece of theater,
00:36:02 like a piece of theater, a bit of publicity for the uh the group. No, no, it wasn't about publicity for the group. Now, that was an after effect of it. It was about um trying to trying
00:36:16 of it. It was about um trying to trying to raise issues about car culture, fossil fuel use, climate change, uh the oppression of nature, for capitalism and for consumerism and and
00:36:28 capitalism and for consumerism and and and for greed. Effectively, as you say, the traffic was blocked. Yeah. What happened to the traffic? Was it diverted around? I unfortunately was in the the space
00:36:40 I unfortunately was in the the space that wasn't being obstructed. So I'm sure it was really frustrating for people who had things to do that day. Um which is always a downside of these things. Obviously this became a bigger
00:36:52 things. Obviously this became a bigger thing with Extinction Rebellion later. But it was about that space. It was about changing the use of the space and creating an event that brought people together.
00:37:05 together. Um the report as the header talks about it's listed disorder just minor incidents. I think at the any event like this
00:37:18 I think at the any event like this I think reclaim the streets they had police liaison. So when we were leaving the place with the banners in the morning these two policemen came along and said oh we're going to be fluffy you're not spiky today. And we were like
00:37:29 you're not spiky today. And we were like whatever. They did try to stop the road protest. They did try to stop it. They had the people from the sand system into cuffs, but then people came from three different directions and they then they
00:37:41 different directions and they then they passed they stepped back and the party they allowed the party to proceed and managed a public order event. So when you say that the police said to you, "We're going to be fluffy, not
00:37:52 you, "We're going to be fluffy, not spiky," that's as you were leaving uh King's Cross where you'd made the banners, stored the banners, and what did you understand that to mean?
00:38:02 mean? they weren't going to hit us over the head with a trenchon. So, not aggressive policing. I think if they felt they had stopped the party from happening, I'm not sure
00:38:14 the party from happening, I'm not sure that the policing might not have been aggressive to keep us off the streets at that point, but once the party was happening and once the sound system or the people on the in on the on the motorway, then I think that was their
00:38:26 motorway, then I think that was their response was to be okay. At that point, they were going to do everything they could to stop it because they knew the location because Jim knew the location, but if they couldn't stop it, they were
00:38:38 but if they couldn't stop it, they were going to let it go ahead. Um, the mood in the report is described as jubilant. Is that fair to say? Yeah, there was a period where um the
00:38:49 Yeah, there was a period where um the police line was the tripod used to block the road. the the tripods would be at the other side of the police line and I found that quite distressing because I was worried about the people on the tripods
00:39:01 tripods and so there were people at the police line and then there was negotiations I think going on about bringing the people on the tripods into the party. So there was a point where um I was at the police
00:39:13 was a point where um I was at the police line, lots of other people were and uh the police line started to move back and the crowd started to share power to the people and everyone kind of joined in with us.
00:39:23 with us. power to the people. And then there was another point when I walked away from that place and there was a woman in a lovely dress and she was playing a cello and singing Amazing Grace and there's
00:39:34 and singing Amazing Grace and there's this policeman smiling and joining in with her and it was a really precious moment because it showed how things could shift
00:39:45 because it showed how things could shift and showed how commonality could arise even if it was just a policy of the day. It was something that was always stayed with me. It's very beautiful and meaningful.
00:39:56 meaningful. And the sense from that day was that it was a successful day. Yeah.
00:40:03 Yeah. Um
00:40:06 Um sir, that may be an appropriate moment now to break for the midm morning break. Certainly. Um we break 15 minutes so that the shorthand writers can have a
00:40:17 that the shorthand writers can have a rest and indeed you can as well. Thank you. We resume in 15 minutes.
00:58:27 Thank you. [snorts] Moving to August 1996. Now on the 5th of August there was an action against Pinkerton's security and that was in
00:58:38 Pinkerton's security and that was in Richmond and they were at the time providing security to the Newbury bypass. Do you recall that? Yes.
00:58:45 Yes. Um you were involved in organizing that action. Is that right? Kind of. And you were there on the night before at the Richmond Green Cafe to
00:58:58 before at the Richmond Green Cafe to have a meeting and and to plan the action on the following day on the 5th. Is that right? Yeah. It was like a gathering point and then people could stay over. So I think what happened was me and this other
00:59:11 what happened was me and this other activist had gone to the reclaim the streets meeting because the reclaim streets meeting was an open meeting where you could say we're doing this come along. It was a good way of getting people together to go. So, I think we'd
00:59:23 people together to go. So, I think we'd done that and then we're going to be here in the evening and then we can stay over if you want and then we go straight to the action. Okay. And Boiling was one of the people that came that evening for the for the
00:59:36 that came that evening for the for the which surprised me to be honest. I was a bit like oh cuz I kne I think I knew him but I didn't know him that you know what I mean. It's like I was surprised he turned up. Let's just say that. And you
00:59:48 turned up. Let's just say that. And you describe in your witness statement that he was very focused on what the plan was, how to get into the building. Yeah. He wanted to know what the plan was. He got really irritated that we
00:59:59 was. He got really irritated that we didn't have a plan and he stormed out. What was you say you didn't have a plan, but presumably you were going to turn up at the building at some point the following day.
01:00:10 following day. That's Yeah. So, I found his what's the plan a bit like to my mind at the time a bit like confusing like well the plan is we're going to turn up and hopefully they don't know we're coming. Do you
01:00:21 they don't know we're coming. Do you know what I mean? And then so nor an office you would expect an office wouldn't have security at the door so much. It would just be a normal um office in Richmond. So yeah, I was a bit
01:00:33 office in Richmond. So yeah, I was a bit perplexed by Was the intention to go into the building? It was to occupy the office and make a bit of a song and dance. And boiling becoming angry
01:00:46 And boiling becoming angry and irritated. Did he storm out? Did you say?
01:00:49 say? Yeah.
01:00:49 Yeah. How did that affect you? It really affected me. Um I think some of the things we talked about earlier, um
01:00:57 um I just I think I took it as a personal rejection. There's something wrong. I've not done something that I should be doing. and I'm responsible and I've got
01:01:08 doing. and I'm responsible and I've got to make this work and I've got to make so I think there was that bubbling up and I I I felt very um
01:01:17 [sighs] um what's the word um
01:01:22 um well out of sorts. I after that I I was um yeah I was very anxious and agitated. Um you described not being able to eat breakfast the following morning. Were
01:01:34 breakfast the following morning. Were you quite stressed about the whole situation? Yeah, I just felt sick. I had nausea. What impact, if any, did his behavior have on the action and how that took place?
01:01:43 place? I think it disregulated me and um and I I um
01:01:51 I um I think I kind of was taking it too seriously. Uh like it was down to me to make it work, to fit in, be safe. Do you know what I mean? To I don't know really what was happening. I just know that.
01:02:04 what was happening. I just know that. And I was just trying to make Yeah. Ultimately, when you got to the building, you were entering the building and a female employee grabbed hold of you and pushed you back. Is that right?
01:02:16 you and pushed you back. Is that right? Yeah.
01:02:17 Yeah. And you responded by pushing her back as well.
01:02:19 well. Yeah. I think I got into a little tussle because I wanted to get I wanted to get in the building because that was Well, we don't have a plan to get in the building, so I wanted to make it work. And is it right that the police were
01:02:30 And is it right that the police were immediately on the scene? Yeah. And you were arrested for ABH. Was it actual bodily harm? Yeah.
01:02:38 Yeah. Um, you pleaded guilty to using violence to enter a premises. Is that right? Yeah. Because I was in the police interview. I'd admitted that I didn't
01:02:50 interview. I'd admitted that I didn't think the police wanted uh the the office people wanted us in the building. And um and I had touched the woman like she grabbed me by my arms and I tussled
01:03:02 she grabbed me by my arms and I tussled back. My dress was ripped. I know that when I was in a police station. But yeah, so that made me guilty of both of those offenses. So I had to accept one of them on my record.
01:03:14 of them on my record. Okay.
01:03:14 Okay. Which Yeah. And how has that impacted you since? Well, every job, but only recently my DBS came back and it wasn't I don't have
01:03:25 DBS came back and it wasn't I don't have any things on them. It's the first time. So,
01:03:29 So, um,
01:03:31 um, yeah. So, I have that offense on my DBS and so I have to explain it to every like when I did my social work training or those kind of things, I had to explain what that was about.
01:03:44 explain what that was about. Do you advocate violence as part of protest?
01:03:49 protest? I've been thinking about this um recently personally. Um no, I don't think
01:04:00 think [sighs]
01:04:01 [sighs] it's not whether I advocate violence, but I don't think you can create positive change with violence. I think the only way we can really change ourselves is if we learn to live in peace. But I think that takes a hell of
01:04:12 peace. But I think that takes a hell of a lot of effort and commitment as a species to find a way to do that. But in a political does, you know, violence exists everywhere in our society. It's
01:04:24 exists everywhere in our society. It's how it operates in many ways. Do you have any sense of why the police were there so quickly on that day? Not at the time. I was just like a rabbit in the headlights at the time,
01:04:35 rabbit in the headlights at the time, but obviously come disclosure, come boiling's true identity, then you start to question everything, don't you? And suddenly things start to make more
01:04:46 suddenly things start to make more sense. But other things make a lot less sense.
01:04:50 sense. There's an up to-date and information performer in relation to you behind tab [clears throat] B4 at MPS 0246565
01:05:07 which should be up on the screen in front of you. Can you see at the end of paragraph one in relation to you, it reads, "She was arrested in Richmond on the 5th of
01:05:18 arrested in Richmond on the 5th of August for assaulting an employee of Pinkerton security and attempted office occupation." Uhhuh.
01:05:24 Uhhuh. So that's on a a report specifically in relation to you. You've seen that report, haven't you? Yeah, I have. And and in terms of the accuracy of that
01:05:35 And and in terms of the accuracy of that report, that's that's accurate, is it? Well, it's accurate, but it doesn't say um
01:05:44 um uh what's it detective in Jim Boiling attended the meeting and stormed out because the um useless activist didn't have a plan. Doesn't say that, but yes,
01:05:56 have a plan. Doesn't say that, but yes, that first bit is true. Um you raise an issue with the the description of the uh squat as squalid. Yeah. And also I don't know which
01:06:09 Yeah. And also I don't know which that sentence I have I have given us that back. It's like says are now residing at the above address which is even more squalid than the usual squat near. Um, I don't know what address that
01:06:21 near. Um, I don't know what address that is even referring to and I'd love to know because I actually had a rental house
01:06:28 house um at some point when I was living in Hackne.
01:06:33 Hackne. Yes, she doesn't. If you look at the privacy checklist that you should have on the desk in front of you, uh, three boxes up from the bottom,
01:06:44 uh, three boxes up from the bottom, there's, uh, the reference MPS0246
01:06:49 565. And do you see the name there? Not to say the name. Does that help you at all in relation to that? No, I've really tried to figure it out because um
01:07:02 tried to figure it out because um I mean yeah, it's it's just offensive anyway, but um the homes I lived in that were squats weren't squalid, but okay. Anyway, doesn't matter. Um Boiling didn't doesn't appear to have
01:07:15 Um Boiling didn't doesn't appear to have reported on the planning meeting, as you say, for the Pinkerton's action um nor the actual event. Uh but he had previously reported on a plan to demonstrate at Serban train station on
01:07:27 demonstrate at Serban train station on the 5th of August 96 at 5:00 a.m. And the reporting relation to that is behind B3
01:07:35 B3 MPS 0246520
01:07:42 and it's a report from the 2nd of August 96.
01:07:47 96. Um, the report states that you were to be involved in this demonstration at Serban, but you refute that. Is that right?
01:07:55 right? Yeah. I I can't make head or tail of these two reports and the dates. And obviously my memory of that time isn't perfect.
01:08:07 isn't perfect. Um, it's not selective, but it isn't perfect. Um, but yeah, so I can't actually make head or tail of that. I don't know. It's kind of a question
01:08:18 don't know. It's kind of a question not for me really. I don't know. In the source comment, it does say that it's possible the the RTS intelligence may be inaccurate on this occasion. Road alert are already focusing their
01:08:29 alert are already focusing their attention on Pinkerton security who will be handling the main contract and the South London Action Group who previously ran a source within the security company and disrupted previous collections from Tooting Broadway Tube Station do not
01:08:41 Tooting Broadway Tube Station do not appear to be involved here. Does that help? Yeah, that does. And I don't think that was disclosed. I don't remember that bit being disclosed to me because that unless I just missed it, that makes more sense because that road
01:08:53 that makes more sense because that road alert I think is more connected with the Newbury bypass and this was about the new bypass whereas we were like doing a reclaim the streets sort of support action of that. So that may make some
01:09:05 action of that. So that may make some sense now. So the fact that the security was being provided by Pinkton that may have
01:09:09 have well it's road that makes me think that that would make some sense. Okay.
01:09:19 There's a special branch report on RTS behind tab B5 MPS0246
01:09:28 569. And it's paragraph two that is of interest. Halfway down that paragraph, there's a reference to um reclaim the
01:09:39 there's a reference to um reclaim the future march on the 28th of September and the Advanced Party and Freedom Network
01:09:47 Network were unhappy uh with the restrictions placed on the march by the Met and now intend to stage a single RTS advanced party, Freedom
01:09:58 a single RTS advanced party, Freedom Network and Union demonstration in Liverpool on that date. saying that would be the Saturday the 28th of September 96. Um, do you recall these demonstrations?
01:10:11 Um, do you recall these demonstrations? Um,
01:10:15 right. I don't This is this one of Boiling's reports. This is a special branch report. Uh, do you want to see the the whole of it? If we can take that.
01:10:26 it? If we can take that. Hold on. Just leave it. The thing is I am aware I did attend a protest in Liverpool in support of the dockers but um at that time I was living
01:10:39 dockers but um at that time I was living at road protest camp called Fair Mile in Devon. I traveled up with a group of people from the camp to um reclaim the future. Yes. So I
01:10:52 um reclaim the future. Yes. So I attended
01:10:54 attended but I wasn't involved in any organization for it. So anything about the advanced party and freedom network and all this stuff is not anything I would know about.
01:11:05 not anything I would know about. And when you attended, is it right that you stayed at the the the house and prepared meals? I met the Liverpool police. They came to the squat and they terrified me. Um they
01:11:16 the squat and they terrified me. Um they were just
01:11:17 were just they they seemed scary and I think where I was at that time in myself. Um, I didn't really want to engage,
01:11:28 Um, I didn't really want to engage, which is probably a good idea. They were very, very violent. I had a close friend who was beaten up in the back of the policeman. Um, and other people were as well. Um, yeah. So, I chose to take the
01:11:39 well. Um, yeah. So, I chose to take the easy option and stay and cook food and hang out with the dogs. Does the reference to the groups been unhappy with the restrictions placed on
01:11:50 unhappy with the restrictions placed on the march by the Met, does that indicate that there had been some uh pre uh event negotiations or or or meetings with the Met?
01:12:01 Met? Was the initial plan to have a a march down in London? Yeah. Again, I was I was primarily living at Fair at this time. Okay. Paragraph three
01:12:13 talks about a Newbury spin-off action planned for the 20th of August involving a number of members, a number of RTS members. And Monica, who was arrested on
01:12:26 members. And Monica, who was arrested on Monday the 5th of August at the Richmond offices of Pinkerton Security Agency, is again a co-coordinator. No.
01:12:34 No. Is that accurate? No. I I I vaguely remember something about
01:12:40 about I I remember nothing about this. So I've either got a massive memory block. Um but I definitely don't Yeah. And to be honest, after the Pinkerton's thing, I
01:12:53 honest, after the Pinkerton's thing, I don't think I would have been organizing anything at that time. Did that have a chilling effect on your involvement? It was horrible.
01:13:05 It was horrible. Well, not my involvement as such, but a personally thing for me. It was a really horrible experience.
01:13:12 I'd like to ask you about a Brighton Street party which was on the 24th of August 96. And this is behind tab B6 MPS0246589.
01:13:29 And is this a street party that you were at? You recall it? I recall it. So about 800 people attended. We can see in the header there, the mood was antagonistic according to the report.
01:13:42 antagonistic according to the report. Would you say that's fair? Um 800 seems like a lot, but as I say, I don't know. Um
01:13:51 [snorts] antagonistic. Um I wasn't feeling antagonistic. Um
01:14:01 Um my um ex partner and somebody else were violently arrested. He was dragged down the street. He he still has photographs of the marks on his back from it. I
01:14:12 of the marks on his back from it. I think it was a lot of chaos around this. I think Yeah, carry on. That's all right. Paragraph one, if it helps you, um adds a bit more detail to it as well.
01:14:25 it as well. It talks about poor organization by inexperienced activists resulted in the early confiscation of most of the demonstrators equipment before the event actually started making the intended
01:14:36 actually started making the intended action with tripods, sound systems, etc. impossible. And this led to an unsettled mobile demonstration which ran through the streets of Brighton for several
01:14:47 the streets of Brighton for several hours during which time uh 80 people were arrested. I think there was um I I wasn't conscious of this. So it's a street party as I said there were street
01:14:58 party as I said there were street parties in lots of places and you turned up to go to the street party um and at this day I had just turned up. So I'm not disputing the bit about
01:15:10 not disputing the bit about disorganization or I definitely the street party didn't happen and and we were around Churchill Square that area. Um and so I think there's certain Yeah. There's truth to that, but I
01:15:22 Yeah. There's truth to that, but I wouldn't be aware of that myself. I've only seen this report relatively recently.
01:15:28 recently. Okay. The source comment, if we can enlarge that, please. So, this is a comment
01:15:35 comment made by Boiling. Sorry, it's on page one,
01:15:42 second paragraph,
01:15:47 states that the chaos and mayhem in Brighton demonstrates the fact that disorder and disruption are the most likely result of police preventing RTS and allied activists from achieving
01:15:58 and allied activists from achieving their desired objective. A static party causes fewer problems than a rolling confrontation does, and it it's easier to contain. Would you agree with that
01:16:09 to contain. Would you agree with that statement? Um,
01:16:13 Um, yeah. I mean, I think and and and also static party is much more fun and much more expressive of what is especially in a place like Brighton because it's quite an interesting place. So, a lot of
01:16:25 an interesting place. So, a lot of people would have come into that space and enjoyed and engaged with that space if it'd been allowed just to arise. But obviously that's very um a police perspective.
01:16:36 perspective. Paragraph four, please, if we can enlarge that.
01:16:46 Unable to block the road and denied loud music, the demonstrators were initially boxed in by police. Ironically, at the very point where the street party was to have taken place, half the crowd was able to drift away through police lines
01:16:58 able to drift away through police lines and to regroup on the seafront where traffic was disrupted.
01:17:05 We can see over the over the page that activists were then pursued for about three hours all around town with remarkably little damage to property.
01:17:18 remarkably little damage to property. Do you have any recollection of that? Can you comment any further on your perspective of the day? I Yeah. Um,
01:17:35 I mean it's interesting just I mean my memories of the day I think are primarily um about my exartner and someone else getting arrested. So that was obviously quite big and the term
01:17:47 was obviously quite big and the term snatch squads because that might well have been what happened to them. The other person was someone who I'd seen get snatched before. He was a
01:17:58 I'd seen get snatched before. He was a reclaim the streets um organizer. Um a very creative person and my partner as well. So that was probably one of those
01:18:09 well. So that was probably one of those to be honest. Can you recall what Boiling's role was during
01:18:13 during I don't have any memories of Boiling. I think we moved in slightly different circles at this point. So, we knew each other and we engaged in the pub and we were friendly. I think I remember that
01:18:25 were friendly. I think I remember that that we were friendly, but we kind of moved in slightly different circles. I don't know what the date of this was. This was um the 24th of August 96.
01:18:41 Yeah.
01:18:45 Okay. In contrast, there was another street party a couple of months later in Oxford on the 31st of October 96. Do you recall
01:18:56 on the 31st of October 96. Do you recall that? A Halloween uh event.
01:18:59 uh event. Um this is behind tab B8 MPS0246780
01:19:08 and the report says that about 600 people attended this event. In paragraph two, it says Tempame's Valley Police had apparently decided
01:19:19 Valley Police had apparently decided against confronting the group, opting instead to simply redirect local traffic around them. And this effectively pulled the teeth of the event, which requires a degree of police opposition to work effectively as an action. Unopposed, it
01:19:32 effectively as an action. Unopposed, it literally is just a street party devoid of the necessary element of political significance. Nevertheless, as with all such previous events, it was hailed a success by most
01:19:44 events, it was hailed a success by most of the London Reclaim the Streets contingent. Do do you agree with that? Does that
01:19:49 Does that um [sighs] chime with your recollection? I think it's um it's very much a police perspective. Um I think for me at that time
01:20:02 I think for me at that time I enjoyed meet seeing my friends. I like we we kind of so I saw people from Newbury. I saw people I didn't see very often and it was an the cowi road where
01:20:13 often and it was an the cowi road where the street party was was an alternative area. So it wasn't like um so it was a it was still about creating um it was partly about blocking traffic and
01:20:25 it was partly about blocking traffic and rising that but it was also about creating an alternative space and an open space again that's free of cars. Because if you've got cars going in between you, you're separated. People on either side of the pavement are
01:20:37 either side of the pavement are separated and their interactions are limited. Whereas when you bring in a sound system and a party, then that opens the space because people in parties and they interact. So on that
01:20:48 parties and they interact. So on that level, it was successful.
01:20:52 You say in your witness statement that you then had a break from London from about October 1996 to early 1997.
01:21:04 to early 1997. Was this the uh Fair Mile Road protest camp down in Devon that you've been attending? I think so. That's what I'm I'm not sure exactly of the dates that those things
01:21:15 exactly of the dates that those things happened, but I I definitely was at Fair Mile for a I came back to London occasionally, but I was I was living there.
01:21:23 there. So, a good few months out of the London scene.
01:21:26 scene. Yeah.
01:21:27 Yeah. And you didn't see Boiling much during that time? No.
01:21:31 No. And there's not equally little to no reporting on you during that time as well. Then you move back to London. Um, so this will be early 1997
01:21:45 Um, so this will be early 1997 and you and Boiling are both involved with the Never Mind the Ballots event in the run-up to the general election. Do you recall that? Yeah, I think I came back to London. I to be honest don't remember exactly why.
01:21:57 to be honest don't remember exactly why. Um, though I know there is a reason. I came back to London and that was already being planned and uh Yeah. So I wasn't Yeah. So you weren't part of the organizing team for
01:22:08 weren't part of the organizing team for that but was boiling. I came to understand that he was. Yes. Um
01:22:17 Um the date of this is the 11th of April 1997.
01:22:20 1997. Mhm.
01:22:21 Mhm. And the uh the MPS number is 0000
01:22:28 4279.
01:22:47 This talks about a march for social justice on the 12th of April.
01:22:55 This may be Sorry. Can Can we take that down?
01:22:58 down? Can you leave that one up because I don't think this has been disclosed to me. So, I don't think I've ever seen this before. No, I don't I don't think it has because you're not named in it. Yeah, exactly. So, could I read it? You can. Yeah, you can take time to have
01:23:11 You can. Yeah, you can take time to have a look at that.
01:23:49 [clears throat]
01:24:01 Oh my god.
01:24:17 [snorts]
01:24:35 [snorts]
01:25:49 So this is a report that was uh written on the 11th of April 97 but this the source of the information was obtained on the 9th of April.
01:26:02 on the 9th of April. a couple of days before. Who where does this information come from?
01:26:07 from? I think this has been attributed to boiling.
01:26:09 boiling. Yeah, of course. So, at the time um obviously this was an expression of uh uh distrust of politicians according to
01:26:20 uh distrust of politicians according to you in your witness statement. Is that right?
01:26:22 right? Can I um just say something? Yeah. Um,
01:26:27 Yeah. Um, I'm feeling really emotional reading this because this is what was supposed to happen on the day. I don't know if people can see that what this actually says
01:26:37 says because
01:26:39 because it's effectively setting out the plan, isn't it, as to what was going to happen.
01:26:43 happen. Isn't it nice? Wouldn't that have been good? You know, it it was a well-designed plan to create a space for people to gather and to consider who
01:26:55 people to gather and to consider who really controls. The thing about myself at the time of the 1997 election where Tony Blair was elected is it was neoliberal capitalism. It was that was
01:27:07 neoliberal capitalism. It was that was what and let's have more of the same. And this was to highlight this that while this was the Labor Party, nothing was changing. and the real issues weren't being addressed. So the I I kind
01:27:19 weren't being addressed. So the I I kind of had got sense that it might be something to do with the I didn't know the plan. I didn't want to know the plan. It wasn't important necessarily to know the plan. And so for me, when we got contained at Trafalga Square and the
01:27:31 got contained at Trafalga Square and the plan didn't happen and we had a street pie there, I was kind of happy because I didn't actually until now know what the plan was and the um the beautiful um expressions of what we
01:27:44 beautiful um expressions of what we really felt about this time that was in the evading standards thing that had got together. These were all designed at communication. They were all designed at creating a space for people to come
01:27:56 creating a space for people to come together and explore the issues that were not being addressed by mainstream society for us which is still the same now 30 years later there's still a deafening silence about these issues or
01:28:08 deafening silence about these issues or contained in like anyway and so to read this can imagine you want to cry
01:28:16 to cry because as I say in my statement boiling was one of the three main organizers of this and I was really proud of him. I was thought I really stepped up, but
01:28:28 was thought I really stepped up, but obviously he and the police who employed him made this not happen. And I'm angry and upset about that in this moment. It's heartbreaking
01:28:39 It's heartbreaking and it's so effective, isn't it, at limiting the debate and controlling the options because no one's allowed to actually express anything that's different.
01:28:50 You say that he was one of the three RTS organizers of the event. Yes.
01:28:56 Yes. Um you do say in your witness statement as well that you understood if if he got arrested
01:29:02 arrested in that role it could be a serious offense.
01:29:05 offense. Well, what did you understand at the time he was doing? I mean to be honest I probably didn't think about it at that time as as a thing but it's to be one of the three main people. So there's um
01:29:19 main people. So there's um I can give
01:29:25 um it's the on my um privacy checklist. The third name down. Yes.
01:29:31 Yes. And the fourth name down were the other two.
01:29:33 two. Yeah.
01:29:34 Yeah. And um she had uh police outside her address of the morning.
01:29:46 Um so it's a big thing to be one of the main organizers of an event like this. Yeah. and the fourth name down. I remember when I was actually in a relationship with um Boiling him kind of
01:30:00 relationship with um Boiling him kind of mocking this person because on the morning of this event he got really nervous and anxious. He was kind of mocking him obviously because this is um
01:30:11 because this is um he was a Metropolitan Police officer, isn't he? He's like picked handpicked to join the special club. So, he's obviously quite good at keeping calm in the situation and and as Helen still rightly says, he wasn't actually taking
01:30:23 rightly says, he wasn't actually taking any risks at all, was he? Can I just clarify with you when you say uh the the names, is it the uh third, fourth, and fifth names down, including
01:30:34 fourth, and fifth names down, including the one at the very top? No, it's it's the what? I missed that one because there was lots of numbers underneath that. So, it's the so it's the fourth and fifth number down with
01:30:45 the fourth and fifth number down with page 13 next to them. Yes, thank you.
01:30:54 Um, boiling in his witness statement [snorts]
01:30:59 [snorts] at paragraph 130 says, "I was on the main organizing group of about 8 to 10 people for all RTS events subsequent to the M41 demonstration that we'd heard
01:31:10 the M41 demonstration that we'd heard about earlier in in Shepherd's Bush. Um, and up until the J18 event in 1999, which was the carnival against capital
01:31:21 which was the carnival against capital event,
01:31:21 event, capitalism, sorry, capitalism event in uh uh on the 18th of June 99. Does that chime with your recollection um of his role?
01:31:32 um of his role? As I say, I I left London early 1999. um I wouldn't have known um prior to that. Like obviously he's
01:31:44 um prior to that. Like obviously he's saying he probably was but he's not saying that he was the three main organizers that were to make this happen. The ones taking the risk as it
01:31:55 happen. The ones taking the risk as it was considered to be at the time. He was one of those. Okay. Um there is a special branch note dated the 12th of March 97. So that's
01:32:06 dated the 12th of March 97. So that's about a month before this event. Um, and it shows DS uh war as the author which refers to boiling as being quote a
01:32:18 refers to boiling as being quote a leading figure in London RTS with contacts throughout Britain and indeed Europe closed brack close quotes. Now Boing agrees with that description.
01:32:30 Now Boing agrees with that description. Would you agree with that description? I wouldn't be able to comment on that description. Um, I would and I I think there's it's probably quite true, but it's also probably over overexaggerated,
01:32:42 it's also probably over overexaggerated, isn't it? It's like on some level it's the other side of the coin to the one that I was aware of. I can't really comment on it. I Yeah. Um,
01:32:53 comment on it. I Yeah. Um, the woman we know as Ruth. Yes.
01:32:56 Yes. Who I think you know as well as a member of RTS. She also says in her witness statement at page 7, paragraph 3.8, I don't need to bring it up, but effectively she she refers to this
01:33:08 effectively she she refers to this comment uh uh by boiling in his statement about being in a a broadly similar position to her within RTS and says a broadly similar position to you
01:33:19 says a broadly similar position to you in RTS and to a lesser extent another woman he had a relationship with going by the name of Rosa. And Ruth says she disagrees with him
01:33:30 And Ruth says she disagrees with him saying that there was no explicit formal structure within RTS. And in fact, she was well more well known than Boiling within an RTS and trusted by the group.
01:33:43 within an RTS and trusted by the group. and she said that Boiling was actually a bit of an outsider and that his description of himself as a core member of the group is an exaggeration and he only maintained proximity to them
01:33:55 only maintained proximity to them through her. Can you comment on that? All I know is that at this event which I still have this report from the um never mind the
01:34:07 this report from the um never mind the ballots
01:34:09 ballots um festival of resistance was it? I think it was called it was the aimed to have a space in London for a weekend to explore
01:34:21 explore the things that were important to us. I know that for that event he had stepped up so to speak with three. So, but I
01:34:33 up so to speak with three. So, but I would also agree with Ruth that I would say that she would be a more fundamentally trusted person because of personal relationships that were
01:34:44 personal relationships that were longstanding with certain people who were quite involved in the creative because creativity isn't something you can just go and get. It's something that you have an also ability.
01:34:57 you have an also ability. Yeah. So, does that make sense? So I say she had more long-standing friendships, personal connections. Um, is it right that Boiling was not in
01:35:08 Um, is it right that Boiling was not in a sexual relationship at the time of this event? We know what happened and and this is obviously the event where after which you you you enter a sexual relationship with him.
01:35:18 with him. I didn't know that he was or wasn't to be honest. So if he said to me he was been fine. Um if he wasn't in a sexual relationship
01:35:31 Um if he wasn't in a sexual relationship at this time then is it right that nevertheless even without a sexual relationship it was apparent that he was a key organizer and within the inner
01:35:42 a key organizer and within the inner circle of RTS at this point. Yeah. But if we look back on it like just in this moment saying he was a key organizer but the event he just organized didn't happen did it? The
01:35:54 organized didn't happen did it? The police knew what was going on. because of him.
01:36:02 So, I don't really know what to say to that.
01:36:05 that. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that it's about a year and a half into his infiltration of RTS, about two years since he's been deployed from
01:36:16 since he's been deployed from Yeah, I suppose would be the answer, wasn't it? Yeah. it it without being in a relationship, a sexual relationship up until that point, it doesn't appear to have hindered his
01:36:28 it doesn't appear to have hindered his ability to infiltrate the inner workings or the inner core of a a group. Would you say that's fair or or not?
01:36:40 Knowing things about people
01:36:45 is helpful in creating trust.
01:36:51 I suppose
01:36:55 there's the whole thing the boiling says in his statement, doesn't he? About it's hard to avoid sex, drugs, and crime. And in their tat tacit, this whole narrative, it's not a narrative without
01:37:08 narrative, it's not a narrative without substance.
01:37:11 And in order to infiltrate the lives and the privacy and the beliefs of people who want to create positive social change, it had proved quite an
01:37:23 social change, it had proved quite an effective tactic. It's proved quite an effective tactic in not allowing this event to happen, which is really sad because there's a lot of time and energy
01:37:34 because there's a lot of time and energy and love put into creating that event for positive reasons. And
01:37:44 so yes, I do think you can spy on people without having sex with them. And I think you should try to spy on people if you have to spy on people in this society in this way and protesters and
01:37:56 society in this way and protesters and people trying to create positive you know social change. If the society makes a choice that you have to infiltrate their lives, then it's a very good idea not to have sex with them.
01:38:14 And that should never be a tactic for getting your legend legitimized. Sorry, just take.
01:38:31 [snorts]
01:38:36 Would you like to pause for a moment?
01:38:41 We don't need to take a break. Just give me a few minutes, please.
01:38:50 [snorts]
01:39:10 Okay. You okay to continue? At this event, for the Never Mind the Ballots event, you were on the creative side of it and you were involved in
01:39:21 side of it and you were involved in making the flags of a way of directing the crowd and um uh uh leading people towards the Department of Environment Building. Is that right?
01:39:32 Building. Is that right? Yeah. And like it says in the bit about the um evading standards uh publication, there was this bit to be given out that would help. Um I hadn't seen that. I
01:39:43 would help. Um I hadn't seen that. I just knew what I had to at some point follow someone else on the day with one of the flags that I'd made. Well, I didn't know whether I made them. There were lots of flags. You said part of that actually didn't
01:39:55 You said part of that actually didn't happen in the end as you as you say. Um but there was still a sound system up in Fargo Square. Was there a party in Fala Square?
01:40:03 Square? Yeah.
01:40:04 Yeah. Contained
01:40:05 Contained nicely.
01:40:07 nicely. And you describe at paragraph 319 of your witness statement that there were tensions around the police lines and the prospect of impounding the sound system. Um I might need a break, but let's try.
01:40:20 Um I might need a break, but let's try. Okay. Because I'm just to be honest, I'm just feeling quite angry about the whole thing at the moment. Um so when you say tensions I I think when you people are
01:40:31 tensions I I think when you people are contained by a police line so just to talk about that really with um that time it is important. So it was the party go I was just I saw you know these places
01:40:43 I was just I saw you know these places were places where we gathered like we saw people we loved we cared about we danced we connected we talked we caught up with each other we hugged each other we celebrated
01:40:54 we celebrated you know and so on some level for me as I was at that time it was lovely it was like 12 square was you know kids were playing in the fountain whatever [snorts]
01:41:05 fountain whatever [snorts] and then as things get to that end point obviously the tensions arised because we're contained by a police line. I remember going up to the police line just going and looking. It must have been getting towards the end of the day.
01:41:18 been getting towards the end of the day. Um, and I saw an officer um [clears throat] who's had his h head back hand back and he was his trenchion
01:41:29 back hand back and he was his trenchion was there and he looked quite angry and great, you know. So, I left and then I was a bit like I don't quite know what to do with myself now. And then I saw somebody I was going to go and say hello to and he was quite confused. He drank a
01:41:44 to and he was quite confused. He drank a lot. bless him. But he kind of put this mask up on his nose and and so I I didn't go up to him and then next minute this guy with a kid on his shoulders
01:41:57 this guy with a kid on his shoulders came running up after this person and he wanted to kill him because he sadly the person I knew from Newbury had thrown something at the police line
01:42:08 thrown something at the police line because the tent this is the edge of and so I kind
01:42:14 so I kind cal I felt like I calmed the situation down. The guy didn't hit him so I got in between and then I was really by that point and I walked towards the sand system and I saw Jim boiling and he
01:42:29 sand system and I saw Jim boiling and he was looking towards the sand system and I hadn't seen him. That was probably the first time I'd seen him for a while. So, I went up to him and I remember asking him what was happening and he was
01:42:41 asking him what was happening and he was saying he was he said to me, "I'm really worried they're not going to let the sound system out." And I remember I held his hand and kind of was kind of supportive in the way
01:42:53 of was kind of supportive in the way that I knew how like in you know in as in as a member of the crowd and I think they did let the sound system out obviously now that's what happened at the time. Now I know different things
01:43:04 the time. Now I know different things about who he really was. So that's so as far as impounding the sound system, I don't know anything about that.
01:43:16 You do display or exhibit a picture of yourself at that Trafalga Square event. It's [snorts] behind A2. I'm not going to display it because it's privacy
01:43:27 to display it because it's privacy redacted anyway. Um, you went to the pub afterwards after the event. Do you recall that? I yeah I was just following everyone else.
01:43:38 just following everyone else. Was there a sense that this action had failed? Was there a sense of disappointment? And and personally for me as I say I was ignorant and as I I talked about earlier I was kind of like yeah in my own little
01:43:51 I was kind of like yeah in my own little world in many ways. Um so I remember talking to somebody when we were leaving Chfala Square and she was expressing disappointment. So I think she may have known more about the plan. She was she's
01:44:04 known more about the plan. She was she's an amazing amazing woman. Um was there a sense of disappointment amongst the organizers? Yes, she was. She said and she said, "Well, the real plan didn't happen." And I was like, "Oh god, father party this
01:44:15 I was like, "Oh god, father party this 12." [laughter] Do you know what I mean? Because I didn't know what we'd lost really.
01:44:20 really. And um and yeah. And how was boiling? Do you recall how he was? Well, what happened
01:44:31 he was? Well, what happened when I walked into the pub, he was sat, what I remember is he sat, you know, like in you like the cubby hole seats, if I remember correctly, like the ones like benches and then a table sort of.
01:44:43 like benches and then a table sort of. Um, he was sat there and when he saw me, he looked relieved. They looked pleased to see me. Well, pleased to see me would probably have been like, but also I could look back at it now and go relieved.
01:44:57 Um, was there any sense that the event had been sabotaged or that there had been a leak?
01:45:05 leak? I, as I say, for me, I've been hanging out with my friends from not the the people involved in organizing this event. I've been hanging out with my
01:45:17 event. I've been hanging out with my friends from the road protest sites more. Do you know what I mean? I' just been in that world. So, this wasn't discussed. There wasn't a debrief at the pub afterwards or anything like that?
01:45:28 anything like that? Not. We just We just arrived at the pub. I mean,
01:45:36 it's funny. It's like I've known this for 15 years. But even recently, I can sort of see how convenient I was
01:45:47 convenient I was because obviously it's in my witness statement. what happened after, you know, I was I was I was his get out of having to deal with this not working.
01:45:58 of having to deal with this not working. I obviously didn't realize that at the time, but that seems to be what I did. You say that you left the pub together. Is that right?
01:46:09 Is that right? We left the pub and then I remember sitting on the wall with him. I think the other people had gone up. I think there was another place that they'd had an emergency place to go to if the plan didn't work, but I didn't
01:46:22 to if the plan didn't work, but I didn't really know any of this. It wasn't something I was aware of.
01:46:28 Um, is it right that you lent in to kiss him or did he
01:46:34 or did he looked? It's hard to say. I wasn't, but I think we looked at each other and then Yeah, I kissed him. And you say that you asked him if you
01:46:45 And you say that you asked him if you could go home with him. Yeah.
01:46:46 Yeah. Is that right? And he immediately said yes.
01:46:49 yes. Yeah.
01:46:50 Yeah. Was there any hesitation there? I don't remember it. And was it clear to both of you, as far as you could tell, at that stage what was likely to happen if you went home
01:47:02 was likely to happen if you went home with him?
01:47:03 with him? Yeah.
01:47:05 Yeah. Uh, and the the the intention was to have sex.
01:47:12 Um, he said he needed to get his van. Is that right? Yeah.
01:47:16 Yeah. And did he disappear at that point? Yeah. I I think we might cuz there was a a party I think in I think there's a Scotty building and it's a party in
01:47:27 Scotty building and it's a party in that. Um, so I think that might have just been over the road from the pub. I really don't remember. Um, and I remember waiting for him to go and get his van and then him coming back.
01:47:40 get his van and then him coming back. quite quickly really. I mean just now I can just see it from the other side now. It's just like what a perfect avoidance strategy.
01:47:47 strategy. Did you go on to an afterparty? No, I think it was just I I don't remember exactly. It was just opposite the pub. It wasn't far away. So I waited for him I think just there and then he turned up with a van and we left because
01:48:00 turned up with a van and we left because I also there's only so much social engagement that I can handle before I need a break. Do you know what I mean? So I probably at that point I needed a break.
01:48:09 break. And if he hadn't have come back with the van or said no to you, what would have happened?
01:48:19 happened? I would have felt um a bit rejected, but that's normal. So I would have just carried on. Were there plenty of was there opportunity for him not to have sex with
01:48:30 opportunity for him not to have sex with you that evening? Yeah, of course. He did take you back. He took you to his one bed flat in East Dulich. Is that right?
01:48:38 right? Yeah.
01:48:40 Yeah. And
01:48:42 And at the flat uh he smoked a spliff. And did you smoke with him? Mhm.
01:48:49 Mhm. That was cannabis. He was smoking cannabis.
01:48:51 cannabis. With tobacco. Mixed with tobacco. Um what impact did that have on you? I had stopped smoking in the new year. Um I had um smoking related illness. had
01:49:03 Um I had um smoking related illness. had really bad bronchitis. Obviously, my mother had died of smoking. I smoked in the womb a little and I passively smoked all my childhood. Um, and then I started smoking at 14 and I smoked about 40
01:49:16 smoking at 14 and I smoked about 40 cigarettes a day. I was very, very addicted. And then when cannabis came along, I also developed a dual addiction of tobacco and cannabis. So, giving up smoking was I was very
01:49:27 So, giving up smoking was I was very afraid that I was going to die. I was very afraid, you know, what happened to my mom and stuff. But I was also massively addicted to tobacco. Um
01:49:38 massively addicted to tobacco. Um and like an alcoholic I still am. I don't use but um [snorts]
01:49:44 and smoking that spliff with him and smoking with him at the beginning of our relationship. He could just smoke tobacco and have one at a pub and smoke
01:49:56 tobacco and have one at a pub and smoke spliffs at home by himself as he's admitted.
01:50:00 admitted. But my addiction to tobacco was so strong that I couldn't. But and while I didn't start smoking, give up giving up, I was still smoking other people's tobacco, asking other
01:50:12 other people's tobacco, asking other people's tobacco. And it was afterwards it had an effect on my ability to breathe, my ability to cycle from north to South London, um, and my mental health.
01:50:23 health. So, it restarted my tobacco addiction because I have very little power over my tobacco addiction. You say in your witness statement that you deeply resent boiling for starting
01:50:36 you deeply resent boiling for starting that habit again. Well, I let's be clear. I deeply resent that there was an undercover police officer in my life smoking cannabis and
01:50:48 officer in my life smoking cannabis and infiltrating my life that started that tobacco addiction. and that also laughed at me for not being able to breathe properly when I ran.
01:51:01 Was it common for people to smoke within the group and smoke cannabis within the group?
01:51:07 group? It was common for people within the subculture to smoke cannabis, but it was also common for people not to. Was there any suspicion around people who didn't smoke? No.
01:51:21 You had sex that night at his flat. Is that right? Yes.
01:51:27 Yes. And the next morning you say you discussed what had happened and that's when you decided to have a a relationship. Is that right? Um
01:51:41 I don't know what he was deciding.
01:51:45 His narrative, his whole universe was very different than mine. He obviously has to consider if rejecting me will you he's playing from
01:51:56 rejecting me will you he's playing from a a different handbook, isn't he? Or not, you know. Was it your sense that that would be a monogous relationship? Yes.
01:52:10 Was there either one of you that pressed for a a formal relationship or not a formal relationship but for it to continue in that way? Was it mutual?
01:52:21 Was it mutual? I thought it was mutual though. Yeah.
01:52:30 And again, what if Sorry, you want to carry on?
01:52:36 carry on? I think these are the things we talked about earlier, but when you're not socially confident, any mirroring, any feelings that you're actually safe with
01:52:48 feelings that you're actually safe with that person and they're not rejecting you
01:52:52 you can sometimes be perceived as attraction. That might not be from my perspective. and and obviously some of the things that we talked about earlier. So I have got it wrong in the past
01:53:06 So I have got it wrong in the past but he was as we know he was a serving metropolitan police officer so he's playing something completely different. Does it does that make sense? So I might have he might never have looked at me tw
01:53:17 have he might never have looked at me tw I don't know whether what I thought was attraction between us was mutual attraction was actually there in retrospect. Does that make sense? But that was your understanding at the time.
01:53:26 time. That was my understanding at the time. And what if Boiling had said that he wasn't interested in continuing in a relationship or that he had a girlfriend? Yeah.
01:53:36 Yeah. Or something else that I would have been, oh, okay, that's fine. Maybe you could have told me last night. It wouldn't have been an issue. And you say that the relationship lasted
01:53:47 And you say that the relationship lasted about six months from that April to about October 1997. Yes.
01:53:53 Yes. Um,
01:53:55 Um, is it right that you regularly stayed at his flat? You kept a toothbrush and some clothes there? Yes.
01:54:02 Yes. And is that because you were in North London? He was South London. Yes.
01:54:05 Yes. He was East Dulich, wasn't he? That's where his flat was. Um, and did you have regular sex during the course of your relationship? I think so. Yeah. Um, you say in your witness statement,
01:54:17 Um, you say in your witness statement, it's probably at least once a week. You didn't live with each other, but you regularly saw each other. Yeah.
01:54:25 Yeah. Can I take you please to HN14's witness statement? It's at UCPI 36294
01:54:34 36294 at page 97
01:54:40 and it's paragraph 182.
01:54:45 Um, Boiling's various accounts have been inconsistent, but at its shortest, he suggests that the relationship lasted a few weeks over the summer of 1997.
01:54:58 few weeks over the summer of 1997. What do you say about that? That's not true. And at paragraph 196, he says, "I think she stayed at my flat on a few occasions and probably slept together about a
01:55:10 and probably slept together about a dozen times," he says later. Mhm.
01:55:14 Mhm. What do you say about that? It's not true. Is there a sense of him downplaying the relationship? Um, it seems that way, doesn't it?
01:55:26 Um, it seems that way, doesn't it? Could there be a truth that lies somewhere in between your two accounts so that the there's not one account that's obviously wrong?
01:55:39 Um,
01:55:43 I don't think so. No, I I mean I don't know exactly. I was quite an independent person at this time. Um, and obviously I can see what's
01:55:54 time. Um, and obviously I can see what's come up on the screen now. Um, so I don't think so.
01:56:03 Um, I'm saying we had an intimate relationship for six months between April and October 1997. And during that period, I considered him my boyfriend as
01:56:14 period, I considered him my boyfriend as it would have been. And that I saw him regularly. I went back to his flat after reclaimed the streets meetings. If I wasn't going anywhere else or leaving London for any other reason, then I spent time with
01:56:27 other reason, then I spent time with him.
01:56:30 him. Um, did you spend time outside of reclaim the streets meetings? So, would you go out for meals, cinema, day trips, that sort of thing? I think yeah, definitely went to cinema,
01:56:43 I think yeah, definitely went to cinema, definitely went uh Yeah, I don't
01:56:48 I don't I don't remember precisely, but I know I went to cinema with him. I have lots of quite a few memories of being in South London. I'd never really spent any time in South London before then.
01:56:59 in South London before then. Was he quite generous towards you? How did he treat you as a girlfriend?
01:57:09 It varied. We can come on to some specific um uh events that you recall in a moment. At paragraph 183 of his witness statement,
01:57:22 paragraph 183 of his witness statement, he suggests that you were seeing other people at the same time as him. That's not true. for instance in Wales and on a road camp. Um it's not true. I have friends. It
01:57:35 Um it's not true. I have friends. It like
01:57:39 it's it's hard to describe the um the closeness I think it is documented psych psychologically you know the docu um the
01:57:51 psychologically you know the docu um the closeness that people get when they have a common aim and they have a shared purpose. So people in the row protest movement,
01:58:01 movement, you met lots of different people and you connected with people and he had strong friendships, strong intimacies almost. But do you know if you were Yeah. So we can go on to this next bit.
01:58:13 to this next bit. Before we leave his witness statement, can I take you to paragraph 190? 190, please. He says that it would have been difficult not to engage in a relationship with you. It would be
01:58:27 relationship with you. It would be bring that up.
01:58:35 He says it is difficult to sustain the image of a single bloke living alone within activists groups where relationships are made and unmade very easily and almost all activists were in
01:58:47 easily and almost all activists were in a relationship with another known activist.
01:58:51 activist. What would you say about that? [sighs]
01:59:00 It's hard to comment on it really. Um,
01:59:08 there's truth in it and there's this what
01:59:15 that's from a Metropolitan Police officer's perspective, isn't it? Um, I don't I don't They could have tried,
01:59:28 you know, young single men do not usually avoid an like it would have been hard to be in not be in a relationship. I to
01:59:37 I to I don't know what to say about it. We heard at the end of last year when Mark Jenner gave his evidence to this inquiry in December that he said the
01:59:49 inquiry in December that he said the single man lifestyle was unsustainable.
01:59:56 Do you say that there was a way for people to avoid having sexual relationships with somebody during the course of their deployment? Well, it it would have
02:00:09 deployment? Well, it it would have protected my human rights and Allison's human rights and every other of the category hedge women's human rights not to have had sex with us. Um, it's a question for the state to answer, but as
02:00:22 question for the state to answer, but as it says on there kind of in their back room conversations rather than on the tradecraftraft manual, as an undercover officer, it's difficult to avoid crime, sex, and drugs. But it's also um it
02:00:35 sex, and drugs. But it's also um it doesn't seem to me that difficult to not infiltrate the life lives of people who are trying to create positive social change and have good motivations to this
02:00:46 change and have good motivations to this level. We are not criminals. We are not we're the most public order. It's just it's just too far too far. It's just it's it just should never happen and it
02:00:57 it's it just should never happen and it should never happen again. It is wrong. You can see did Carter have an opinion on whether it was avoidable or not. You can see at the end of that paragraph
02:01:08 You can see at the end of that paragraph he says she had kissed me in front of other activists. I don't think I had I don't think I would have kissed him in front of other activists if they'd been stood around the pub. I think we were alone. So he
02:01:19 the pub. I think we were alone. So he could have just said look sorry love and for me that wouldn't have been a big problem. So this suggestion that it it would have been talked about in the group if he didn't act on it,
02:01:31 group if he didn't act on it, that's a nonsense. You say paranoid as well, isn't he? Because this man is lying to everybody around him. He's just been one of three main organizers making sure that an event that lots of
02:01:42 making sure that an event that lots of people have put a lot of time, energy, and love and commitment into organizing did not happen. So his state of mind is nothing to do with me. He was pretending to be somebody else. I believed who he
02:01:54 to be somebody else. I believed who he was. I believed his legend. Sorry. It's hard not to be angry about this stuff. Um I'm sorry. It is hard and it's
02:02:07 it's he is what he is.
02:02:11 Paragraph 8.7 in your witness statement, you do say that sometimes feelings are reciprocated and sometimes not, and any refusal to engage sexually would have been entirely unremarkable. Yeah, we
02:02:23 been entirely unremarkable. Yeah, we were very much for people's right to be themselves. That's what we were for. We were for people's rights. We were kind. We cared about each other. We loved one another.
02:02:36 loved one another. Doesn't mean we were all having sex up trees every 5 seconds, but people were free to choose to do what they wanted to do.
02:02:47 Um, [clears throat] we touched very briefly on his treatment of you and there are a few instances where you say you saw a nasty side to him and you expressed that
02:03:00 nasty side to him and you expressed that in your witness statement um in paragraph 3.46 to 3.51. Um
02:03:11 perhaps if I just flag those few instances. Um he he mocked you for feeling insecure about people talking about you behind your back. Do you recall that?
02:03:22 your back. Do you recall that? Yeah. I did talk about earlier the van incident. Yeah. And he mocked you and shouted at you for entertaining the possibility of aliens visiting Earth. Yeah. That was really it was a weird
02:03:34 Yeah. That was really it was a weird experience. Obviously I look back at that cuz I was quite shocked by his behavior like how he was mocking me because I suppose my mind is always trying to fix the world you know and
02:03:46 trying to fix the world you know and sometimes it feels quite desperate so if some intelligent life form came down and tried to help us sort it out it would be like really appreciated but obviously that's not happened.
02:03:57 that's not happened. Uh you've said already he laughed at you for your level of physical fitness despite knowing that you suffered with bronchial issues. Um
02:04:08 Um yeah.
02:04:10 yeah. Are there more? There are um the other instant that you describe is when he left you in the cold when you slept together in the van.
02:04:21 slept together in the van. He had a better sleeping bag than mine. And so when I woke him up, I'm cold. He just rolled over and and then after and I I just accepted. But then afterwards it became a little bit of a a joke about
02:04:33 it became a little bit of a a joke about me longing to have a snug pack. It's a posh sleeping bag that he had. And that's when you stopped and camped in the van at the Lake Districts on the way up to Strathclyde. Is that right?
02:04:44 way up to Strathclyde. Is that right? Yeah. On the way to the earth first gathering. Yeah. And and we can come on to that report a little bit later. Um he was you say at paragraph 3.50 50 who was anti antagonistic sorry
02:04:56 who was anti antagonistic sorry antagonistic about your feminist beliefs.
02:04:58 beliefs. Well
02:05:00 Well um I gave an interview to Operation Hearn at some point and I kind of towards the end of that I remembered this incident. So, I'd been I'd gone to some
02:05:12 some I think it was supposed to be a woman's only workshop um
02:05:18 um or fe I don't really know but it was supposed women only but there was a young man there who his mom I think was a feminist and he really wanted to show his support for women's causes so to speak
02:05:30 speak but so the meeting kind of got took over by him being there and us feeling a bit uncom people people feeling a bit uncomfortable about him being there But not want, you know, it became a bit of an it took over the meeting and I went
02:05:43 an it took over the meeting and I went back to the van and was talking to him about this because it had been quite intense
02:05:49 intense and he got he just was mocking me about the need to have women's only spaces because this man being there had disrupted the space and it had made it all about him. Um but obviously he had
02:06:01 all about him. Um but obviously he had issu you know so and I kept trying to explain earnestly explain what that meant like from my lived experience in that moment and he kept
02:06:14 experience in that moment and he kept just mocking it and going oh we should have men's only faces and all that and he wouldn't you know when you're really trying to explain something to somebody that means a lot to you and they don't listen and they don't hear and actually
02:06:26 listen and they don't hear and actually they keep taking their position in a degrading way. So he just kept mocking and like like not listening and take he I
02:06:37 like like not listening and take he I think he was playing with me in truth. Now I look back at that. I think he was playing with me cuz he could see that I was getting upset and frustrated and it was upsetting
02:06:51 and it was upsetting because I just felt totally not listened to and demeaned and like you know like mocked and yeah
02:07:00 yeah you also say that he was unsupportive in a a private matter as well and that's something that has been redacted from your statement but there there are instances is where you're saying he
02:07:11 instances is where you're saying he doesn't show a kind, supportive uh emotional response to you in the in the relationship. Can I be well obviously I'll be truthful. I think what I think now from
02:07:23 truthful. I think what I think now from this position is that he was trying to get away from me. So there's an incident um you haven't raised but there was a point where it
02:07:35 raised but there was a point where it appeared on my screen which was when and I think it was after the aliens thing. So I I was thinking back to this and I he accused me of hitting him and I
02:07:46 and I he accused me of hitting him and I think what I did was you know like a child when they're frustrated would like just tap out something. I think I did that and then he got really upset and going you've hit me and
02:07:58 and I kind of described it as this Truman Show moment like the B in the Truman Show when the woman's trying to get away from him because he's really you know just like I think he's just like who is this woman and I got really really
02:08:10 this woman and I got really really really really upset cuz he was angry and I I think I perceived I was being rejected and so I got really upset like and he left his own flat
02:08:22 own flat and left me. I was begging on my please don't leave me. Um, and I think one of the things that I would like to say today is he did and I kind of would, you know, I've been
02:08:35 and I kind of would, you know, I've been afraid of knowing what he really thought of me a lot because I think he had contempt for me. Um there was lots there might have been other things there but there was contempt and there was a sense
02:08:46 there was contempt and there was a sense of me being lesser than him and a bit of an idiot and inferior because he is this highprofile ever so good metropolitan police officer. What I'd really like to
02:08:57 police officer. What I'd really like to know
02:08:59 know but also would really not want to know is what he said to his handler that night when he left his what do they call it? His duff flat. because I believe that he had conversations with other
02:09:11 that he had conversations with other officers about the mad crazy [ __ ] or whatever. I don't know. I know that there's very little chance he'll ever but yeah, I don't want to know. But I know that those conversations probably
02:09:23 know that those conversations probably happened.
02:09:25 happened. So that's
02:09:26 So that's the incident that you refer to that was put up on the screen. Is that where you he says you entered his flat through the window and slept? Oh, that's a different one. I did do that cuz the window was open and he
02:09:38 that cuz the window was open and he wasn't in and uh sorry but it just didn't seem like an issue because I thought he was one of us, you know, and and maybe sometimes I can struggle to
02:09:49 and maybe sometimes I can struggle to have boundaries. Um in terms of contraception, was contraception used? Yeah, we'd always use condoms. Um I'd like to move to reporting um from
02:10:02 Um I'd like to move to reporting um from him during the course of the relationship. So the first instant the first report is in relation to current court cases behind tab B11 MPS 40 365.
02:10:17 court cases behind tab B11 MPS 40 365. So this is about a month after you've got together following the um never mind the ballots event and we can see here at um
02:10:29 and we can see here at um paragraph one [snorts]
02:10:35 that you're named here appearing at court to plead guilty to charges of causing criminal damage at the home of the earthw transport secretary. And there's a privacy reduction under
02:10:48 And there's a privacy reduction under slab based animal rights activist.
02:10:53 Is that on my cipher list on the um
02:11:07 Yes. It's over the page. Fourth box down.
02:11:13 Oh yeah. But it doesn't say who that person is.
02:11:22 That might be something that we can have a look at during the Okay. It doesn't really matter. But yeah.
02:11:26 yeah. Um but effectively what was this in relation to? It was just a publicity stunt um to it was around the rope new bypass was being constructed. So it was someone's idea
02:11:38 constructed. So it was someone's idea that uh we go to his house and we a turf. you know, when you dig up a turf and then you can put it back and uh as a a publicity stunt
02:11:50 a publicity stunt really. Um and someone else had done it somewhere else and it wasn't criminal damage because they put the grass back after. So he said that the guy who was organizing said it wasn't criminal damage. [snorts]
02:12:03 damage. [snorts] Um it appears that this is the first report on year at least where the code name psycho dream appears and um in his witness statement he addresses that um and suggests that
02:12:17 addresses that um and suggests that around that time is when he was registered as an informant or a cheers in preparation for the the rier uh uh legislation coming into force. I don't
02:12:29 legislation coming into force. I don't know if you're aware. I'm not in relation to that. Are you carry on? So that's an aside really in terms of this is where the psycho dream code name.
02:12:40 name. So you think it's for me. I am the psycho dream. The inquiry does not understand that it has any relevance to their operations, their random names that are are produced
02:12:52 their random names that are are produced and attributed to the different officers.
02:12:57 um
02:13:02 your fined in relation to this between £100 and200. Was that right? I don't remember. Okay.
02:13:09 Okay. I really didn't want to get arrested. It was just such a fast. But anyway, yes. The next report is in relation to Bristol Street Party on the 21st of June 97.
02:13:21 97. It's behind tab B12 MPS 4417.
02:13:32 Now if we can just go to page two first
02:13:38 or page three, sorry.
02:13:43 It appears that this might be the first report where we can see your cipher moniker in the list of people who were in attendance. It appears that this might be the first time that an RF number arises in relation to you.
02:13:58 number arises in relation to you. And those are obviously the registry files.
02:14:00 files. Yeah, it's not my thing. It's just privacy is not my thing. But yeah. Okay. So, going back to page one then, please. Paragraph one.
02:14:11 This is where RTS sets up a sound system blocking a seven lane carriageway in both directions. The police had evicted activists from a squat that was meant to
02:14:23 activists from a squat that was meant to provide accommodation and social space for the weekend. Do you recall that? I think so. Can I just sorry go back to the RF number? So that you're saying to me that the first time I had an RF
02:14:35 me that the first time I had an RF number was some point after before the 21st of the 6th, 1997. Uh that's what we understand at the moment.
02:14:44 moment. That's what you understand. Okay. Thanks.
02:14:47 Thanks. Um
02:14:49 Um if it's the one that I remember bit confus um yeah but I would imagine that Jim Boing would have known where that was
02:14:58 was but now I would imagine. But yes, I think that yeah, there was a squat we were supposed to hang out with like overnight so we could sleep overnight and then be there in the morning. So you both attended that event
02:15:10 So you both attended that event together?
02:15:11 together? I don't remember I don't remember that the first night the Friday night we went down gym but I definitely remember being with him on
02:15:22 definitely remember being with him on the Saturday and the Sunday. So it I was probably at the squat with him. And what was the mood like amongst the squatters as a result of the police action evicting you from the squat?
02:15:33 evicting you from the squat? I think it was really disappointing because it was well it was part of the I suppose the I don't really know the the element of surprise because that's what you're trying to do
02:15:46 because that's what you're trying to do in organizing a street. You're trying to create an element of surprise. It says in paragraph two that the above police action and the advanced publicity in the local press led to a marked
02:15:57 in the local press led to a marked reluctance from suppliers of sound systems to take part. So was there advanced publicity about it in the press?
02:16:04 press? You have to remember that Jim Boing is more involved, more competent, obviously he's a serving Metropolitan Police officer um about what's going on in the back room. I'm kind of just like um a
02:16:17 back room. I'm kind of just like um a foot soldier. I mean I'm part of the movement. I care about the issues, but I'm just turning up. I don't know about this stuff. I didn't know about it at the time.
02:16:28 the time. Paragraph three talks about police trying to divert the cra c crowd away from McDonald's, which ended up getting its windows smashed anyway and arrests were made. Do you remember anything about that? Nope.
02:16:39 Nope. U paragraph four talks about trouble flared around 7:30 in the evening when police tried to clear the last partygoers. I normally left before that
02:16:50 partygoers. I normally left before that point.
02:16:52 point. Um,
02:16:55 so are you not able to help us with the accuracy of this report in terms of the level of any disruption?
02:17:07 Yeah, I wasn't there. I mean, I'm not to say it really had nothing to do with me, your honor. Um, but it didn't I mean, I avoid that kind of thing. it it's not
02:17:19 avoid that kind of thing. it it's not where I want to be. I think I'm more my role often in these things is more to be like
02:17:26 like take space and like like go, "Yeah, let's do this." And that's kind of what naturally happens. I I I'm not
02:17:36 I I'm not against other people smashing well, I don't know where I'm at in relation to these things, but it's not something I do.
02:17:43 do. Um, [sighs and gasps] from the 25th to the 26th of June, we can take that down now. Thank you. You went to Glastonbury and you remember going there with Boiling and you slept
02:17:54 going there with Boiling and you slept in the van. Is that right? Um, in his witness statement, he says that you had your own tent. No.
02:18:01 No. What were what were the sleeping arrangements? I slept in this van. That was the only place I had to sleep. To be honest, if I had my own tent, I would have probably slept in it. Did he give you a tent at one stage? He
02:18:12 Did he give you a tent at one stage? He lent me a tent at some point. So this was would have been July and I had this idea that I would go to Buddhafield festival because it would be full of Buddhists and I could stop
02:18:24 full of Buddhists and I could stop smoking again there. I was really struggling to stop smoking and he might have lent it me before cuz I had I went to corn but maybe I think I had it for a while this tent. So I think that was
02:18:35 while this tent. So I think that was when he lent me the tent. So he lent you the tent for a subsequent event not at Glastenbury. Yeah. Okay.
02:18:44 Uh the next event is from the 9th to the 15th of July 1997. So this is the next one that's reported that names you and it's the Earth first national gathering
02:18:55 it's the Earth first national gathering in Strath Clyde which we've touched on. This is where you both drove up in the van. You camped in the Lake Districts on the way up which is the Snug Pack.
02:19:06 the way up which is the Snug Pack. Yeah.
02:19:07 Yeah. Uh night where you were cold and continued then up to the event which was was that a week long event. I think it would be possibly 5 days and stuff like that. I don't really know
02:19:19 stuff like that. I don't really know exactly. It was a while. It was at least five days. At paragraph 2011.13 of Boiling statement, he says that his name is not listed as an attendee at the
02:19:31 name is not listed as an attendee at the Strathclyde event and he doesn't remember attending. Yeah.
02:19:34 Yeah. And further he would have obtained the information secondhand or third hand for the report. And you suggest in your witness statement that actually um just because he isn't listed, he thinks he doesn't
02:19:46 he isn't listed, he thinks he doesn't need to admit it and he's actively lying. Well, what I noticed from what I was disclosed is once I started a relationship with Boiling and we
02:19:58 relationship with Boiling and we attended events together, his name and my name appeared. So, he reported on himself, Jim Sutton's in attendance and so am I. So, you know, as I said, I
02:20:09 so am I. So, you know, as I said, I can't know, but we definitely did attend that event together.
02:20:16 together. And is that where the feminist workshop Yes. incident happened as well
02:20:23 and we know but I don't need to bring it up behind tab B14 of your hearing bundle at MPS0527813
02:20:34 for the record is the authorization for his travel to Scotland. Yeah. So he has travel authorization and I think there is somewhere that almost that there's a report on that event that must have come from boiling. I haven't
02:20:46 must have come from boiling. I haven't got the details here, but I swear there's something in my disclosure that lists the the plan for an event action at the end and various things about that
02:20:57 at the end and various things about that event.
02:20:58 event. Okay. Um the next event is the 11th of August 97. This is behind tab B16. If we could have
02:21:10 This is behind tab B16. If we could have this this one up please. It's MPS triple 4 sorry triple0488
02:21:31 I'll give you a moment just to have a a look at that report primarily um paragraph one but the whole report is useful
02:22:01 Have you read paragraph one? Oh yeah, I have read that. Um, it talks about there being a bit of uh disruption or disarray in recent weeks
02:22:13 disruption or disarray in recent weeks and there have been frustrations amongst the group when a heated argument between some of the lesser members of the group prompted a walk out uh of the few
02:22:24 prompted a walk out uh of the few experienced organizers present and those who left the meeting included you as one of the more experienced organizers. Do you do you recall that event?
02:22:35 you do you recall that event? I don't know. Truth be told. Um I don't know. I don't have a precise recollection. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'm saying I don't really
02:22:46 happen, but I'm saying I don't really remember it. You know, let's sing this kind of like vague, but nothing has ever really come that's a clear memory. Do you remember discussing the event
02:22:58 Do you remember discussing the event with with Boiling? I mean, I think we did talk about the politics within the politics. Do you know what I mean? And I, you know, I definitely engaged in that kind of talk
02:23:11 definitely engaged in that kind of talk and I'm quite opinionated. Um,
02:23:15 Um, I'm not always right, but quite opinionated. And so, yeah, it might have happened, but I don't have precise I can't comment on it because I don't have a precise memory.
02:23:26 a precise memory. Do you recall what his role was within the group dynamics around this incident? No.
02:23:38 Um, and he didn't take a particular view of what was going on. I can't I really can't honestly remember uh towards the end reported on it
02:23:50 uh towards the end reported on it towards the end of this document. We can see that your RF number is noted on the list again. So this is by August 97. Your RF number is is noted there.
02:24:02 Your RF number is is noted there. Um
02:24:06 two more uh reports very quickly. I don't need to bring them up, but you were reported on on the 3rd of September 97.
02:24:17 97. It's behind tab B17. For the record, it's MPS0519.
02:24:23 It's to do with a 100 days of action preparation and this is to do with the planned action against the oil industry in the run-up to the Kyoto uh summit. Do you remember that?
02:24:34 you remember that? Mhm.
02:24:35 Mhm. And you were putting energy into the strike oil event that was part of that 100 days of action. So he reported on you there. You're still in a relationship at this time. Is
02:24:47 still in a relationship at this time. Is that right? In September 97. Yeah. I think it was Yeah. And again in September the 9th of September 97 behind tab B18
02:25:00 September 97 behind tab B18 continued reporting on the 100 days of action preparation. The report says that Monica I haven't got anything on my screen by the way. Am I supposed to have um we can we can bring it up. It was
02:25:11 um we can we can bring it up. It was just quick fine. Carry on. You can bring it up for if if it was just more in case you thought I had
02:25:17 had the report says that Monica and John Jordan appear to be the main organizers. Is that fair? Yeah, it was. Yeah. Um,
02:25:28 uh, John Jordan, is that the same as Jay Jordan?
02:25:31 Jordan? Yeah.
02:25:34 Yeah. Notably at his in his witness statement, paragraph 82 on page 23, I don't need to bring it up, but he effectively says that he and you were friends. Is that right?
02:25:43 right? Yeah. We kind of knew each other. And he knew of your relationship with Boiling.
02:25:49 Boiling. Yeah. And he was surprised because what he says is Monica was a brilliant politically intellectual sharp person and Boiling gave the impression of not being interested in politics.
02:26:02 being interested in politics. Is that the impression Boiling gave you that he was not so interested in politics as much as you were? Sorry, I'm just still digesting that. Um,
02:26:17 we're all very different, aren't we? And I think I take people at face value. So, for me, one of the things that I took at face value of Jim was his being a vegan.
02:26:28 face value of Jim was his being a vegan. I'm quite easily duped. I'm quite naive and take people at face value. So, that had a quite a big impact on he's a vegan. He's have gyms. So, he must be in the same place.
02:26:42 the same place. I think what Jay was referring to is that I am I'm I'm good at being passionate and ranting, but I'm not very good at organizing. And I think that kind of came out in that whole strike
02:26:55 kind of came out in that whole strike oil thing
02:26:56 oil thing because I wanted to take something forward. I wanted to do something. And I wanted to have the ideas and everything, but I wasn't actually very good at the practical thing, which I didn't necessarily know. I wasn't that
02:27:07 necessarily know. I wasn't that conscious about it at the time. Did boiling help you with organizing the strike oil action? He um was one of the people um
02:27:25 he's by himself on the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
02:27:33 13 on my cipher list. Page 54, page 59. He was um boiling had really infiltrated um this person as a friend. They were
02:27:45 um this person as a friend. They were very close. Me and this person were very very different. So this person's like middle class. It's like very on it, very switched on activist.
02:27:57 switched on activist. Um [snorts] really good activist, really switched on, but he wasn't in favor of the strike oil thing. And uh I remember um Boiling once
02:28:08 thing. And uh I remember um Boiling once said that he wasn't going to tell me what this person privacy thought about the strike oil thing cuz he was keeping his confidence which is quite [snorts] funny ironically. Um so I think it was
02:28:20 funny ironically. Um so I think it was just I was trying to make something happen
02:28:24 happen with Jay but there wasn't really an impetus for it at the time. So I was kind of plugging away at a dead cause I think. But it did happen at the end but in a different form.
02:28:36 end but in a different form. Thank you, sir. That might be good time to break for lunch. Certainly. Uh we'll resume at a minute or two after 2.