Joseph Batty provides testimony regarding his close friendship with undercover officer Carlo Saraki, detailing how Saraki manipulated him through fabricated personal traumas and invasive reporting. The session also explores the potential impact of police surveillance on Batty's professional opportunities and his lifelong work with vulnerable populations.
00:24:45 Good afternoon, everybody. This [snorts and clears throat] afternoon's proceedings are being transmitted uh on the live link um but only after a 10-minute delay. Those with uh mobile
00:24:56 10-minute delay. Those with uh mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only 10 minutes after the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography.
00:25:10 Sir, Mr. Batty, um please bring up your witness statement, paragraph 5.7, which is pages 21 and 22. [clears throat]
00:25:31 paragraph 5.7 uh you talk about um you touch upon the killing of John Charles de Minesis and you say at the bottom of that page
00:25:42 and you say at the bottom of that page that no platform had no involvement in that campaign and to the best of your knowledge neither did the socialist party participate either. Could we also could we now bring up um
00:25:54 Could we also could we now bring up um document
00:25:56 document MPS 2062785?
00:26:01 So this is B53 of your bundle page five.
00:26:13 Now this is within a document that you have seen but it doesn't ne [clears throat] not necessarily the part that you may have read. So if we just look at it briefly, it says, "Soci's party activists have become closely involved in the campaign surrounding the
00:26:25 involved in the campaign surrounding the shooting of the Brazilian electrician mistaken as a suicide bomber at Stockwell Tube Station." Talks about the party's um demographic.
00:26:36 party's um demographic. And then in the source comment, it says, "The SP is well placed to get involved in this campaign due to its good connections with South America through the CWI and its active South American comrades in London.
00:26:49 American comrades in London. In your statement, obviously we've been to that and you say you know that no platform weren't involved and you don't recall that the Socialist Party was involved. Um do you have any recollection of Socialist Party
00:27:01 recollection of Socialist Party involvement with that campaign? Um no
00:27:06 Um no they may have done it. Clearly they they they have with the CWI but I didn't know anything about it. And um were you involved do you have any other knowledge of any other groups being involved with
00:27:18 of any other groups being involved with that particular campaign? No.
00:27:23 Thank you. I'd like to look at um first of all uh Mr. Saraki's behavior whilst undercover
00:27:33 um and in particular about criminal conduct noting what we've just said about the the charity shop incident. So, putting that to one side, at paragraph 17.1
00:27:43 17.1 of your statement on page 40, you say, "I never saw Carlo engage in any illegal activities such as throwing a punch or being involved in serious disorder."
00:27:54 being involved in serious disorder." And when you say you don't recall him seeing not seeing him throwing a punch, does that include in self-defense? Yeah, I never saw him involved. I I I think if you recall earlier I said that
00:28:06 think if you recall earlier I said that I rarely saw him in in any activities
00:28:14 be be that violence or or as as we've said here serious disorder. Yeah.
00:28:22 In Mr. Saraki's statement UCPI50350
00:28:27 at paragraph [clears throat] 170 at page 86 of his statement he refers to being arrested at an incident in Gance Hill or Newbie Park before being released at the scene. If we could just bring that up please.
00:28:43 It's page 86.
00:28:53 Thank you. And and he says further down that page, NP had information that the BNP were likely to be in Gance Hill or Newbie Park Station and a confrontation occurred when punches were exchanged and
00:29:06 occurred when punches were exchanged and police attended. I was arrested and detained at the scene, not taken to a police station and shortly afterwards dearrested. I cannot date this incident. Do you recall that incident?
00:29:20 No.
00:29:27 So, you have no recollection of it? No. I mean, I I know of Gans Hill. I know
00:29:34 know um [clears throat] the area cuz I lived in Ilford for a while, but I I don't ever recall anything like that. Uh one incident involving violence in
00:29:45 Uh one incident involving violence in which Mr. Saraki agrees he was involved was when you Alfred and Mr. Saraki were assaulted in Islington. Correct.
00:29:53 Correct. Uh could we please show MPS 20097?
00:29:58 So this is B25 of the bundle.
00:30:15 [snorts]
00:30:18 As you can as we can see this is a file note dated the 16th of September 2002 in relation to Kraggy Island deployment. So that's Mr. Saraki.
00:30:30 And at the second paragraph, it says this. CI had spent the Saturday evening in the Islington area in the company of two of his weareries, A, which is um Alfred, and JB, which is you, simply
00:30:43 Alfred, and JB, which is you, simply socializing over a pint or two. At about 2140 hours, they were queued outside an automated cash till in [clears throat] Upper Street behind two white males and a female. Seemingly for no apparent
00:30:55 a female. Seemingly for no apparent reason, one of the UI males turned and struck A and a vicious assault by the two males on A ensued. CI and JB immediately went to his assistants and were also assaulted by the UIs.
00:31:08 were also assaulted by the UIs. In the meantime, A had been fouled and was being kicked and stamped on the head. On hearing the approach of police, the UIs fled, but leaving the battered trio to await an ambulance.
00:31:19 trio to await an ambulance. Does this account recorded by the SDS accord with your own recollection of that event? Um,
00:31:28 Um, let's say almost. And I'll explain why almost. Um, I've been out drinking with with Carlo um in the Princess Alice, I believe it's
00:31:39 um in the Princess Alice, I believe it's called. I might be wrong. In um Hackne, which is near Victoria Park. I've been out since early afternoon. I've been drinking
00:31:51 drinking shorts, absin, and and the like. So, I'm not sure I'll require a pint or two is actually technically right. We were we were we
00:32:02 technically right. We were we were we were definitely um towards the end of our um soiety, let's put it that way. Um we were attacked at the um the um cash
00:32:13 we were attacked at the um the um cash point and it isn't the ending of that conversation or that um bit of the of his um report isn't true.
00:32:26 his um report isn't true. I remember having one of the asalants in a headlock for about 2 minutes um and I was holding them with expectation that the police would do something about it. They did arrive. Um,
00:32:39 something about it. They did arrive. Um, and when they arrived, I let go of him and he ran away and the police just didn't do anything. If I'm honest, that's that's the way it played out.
00:32:50 that's that's the way it played out. Unfortunately, I think the police didn't really know what they potentially didn't know what they were getting into, but the asalent, the one who actually had been stamping on Alfred's head, uh, was
00:33:01 been stamping on Alfred's head, uh, was the one who got away. And this wasn't, as far as you're aware, some a confrontation by the extreme rightwing. This was
00:33:08 This was no interpretate. I I I I I don't know how it started. Um
00:33:17 Um but it it was very swift in its um in the way that it developed. And um when this um when this report says that uh Mr. Iraqi and you went to
00:33:30 says that uh Mr. Iraqi and you went to the assistance of Alfred and were assaulted by the US. I take it I mean to do that to me you fought you fought his I mean the guy who punched me I think uh
00:33:41 I mean the guy who punched me I think uh full on he thought I think he thought that would have stopped me going forward but I got hold of him straight after that. That's why I held on to him because he was acute at the catch point and I didn't want to be blamed for any
00:33:53 and I didn't want to be blamed for any assault. So I held the guy in a headlock until the police arrived. And did you sustain any injuries there? Um, not really. No. I mean, he a punch to the face, but that's all.
00:34:05 to the face, but that's all. Uh, how about Mr. Saraki? I think something similar to be honest. I can't recall what his injuries were after the event. Did you provide a witness statement to the police
00:34:16 witness statement to the police at the time? I think I may have done. I didn't go. As far as I'm aware, oh, no, actually, I think we did. I think they came to our house at some point, but I don't think anything came of it. Do you do you know whether Mr. Saraki gave a
00:34:28 do you know whether Mr. Saraki gave a statement? Well, he was talking to the police at the time. That's all I know. And as far as you're aware, were there any followup or any charges in relation to this incident?
00:34:39 to this incident? There was nobody for them to follow up with. They'd gone. Um,
00:34:48 Um, before we explore some of Mr. Saraki's reporting on your personal life. I'd like to explore a little bit further the relationship uh your friendship with Mr. Saraki.
00:34:59 Saraki. I think it's fair to say from what you've described today that you developed what you considered to be a genuine friendship with Mr. Saraki. Yeah, of course. Um he was part he was
00:35:11 Yeah, of course. Um he was part he was the paradoxically he was the glue to a friendship group which is quite interesting. And um he was very involved he became closely involved with your personal life.
00:35:22 personal life. Yeah, I think it's fair to say he was. Yeah.
00:35:25 Yeah. And would that be would it be right to say that that was from when you began began when you became comrades through activism in say late 2000 early 2001?
00:35:36 activism in say late 2000 early 2001? Yeah. It wasn't before. And how long did that friendship last?
00:35:46 Maybe four, four and a bit years. When did you stop having contact with Mr. Saraki? When he disappeared.
00:35:56 Other than your political activities, what sort of things would you do together? You you've spoken of the steam bars. Um
00:36:04 bars. Um I don't want to overplay that, but yeah, steam baths, dinners, meals, going out for drinks, drinking absin. You get the scene. we're going out socializing properly.
00:36:15 going out socializing properly. [clears throat] Um he also as you know helped me move house uh for a temporary period away from home
00:36:22 from home and that was a move all the way to Manchester wasn't it? Yeah. And he also arranged for me and Fia to go uh to Bologna for a long
00:36:33 Fia to go uh to Bologna for a long weekend where we were met by somebody from at the in in Italy um who I assume a family member but probably was a carbonario or something like that. I
00:36:45 carbonario or something like that. I don't know who it was. Who who did he tell you it was?
00:36:52 Who did you Who did you think? I thought it was a family member. I couldn't tell you now who I thought it was, but I I I was told a family member would be meeting with us and that that's all I could say.
00:37:03 could say. You say at paragraph 13.1 of your statement that you suppose having Carlo contributed to your social life. Yeah.
00:37:13 Yeah. Precisely because he was always saying, "Should we meet up for a drink? Should we go out for a drink? Should we go out for the steam bath? Shall we go x y and zed really? So yeah uh even to the
00:37:25 zed really? So yeah uh even to the cinema he we went once once to um Prince Charles the to watch the big blue which apparently was his favorite film uh which we I also liked from my youth. So
00:37:38 which we I also liked from my youth. So yeah that so we did that sort of thing just the things mates do really. And you've mentioned that he helped you move to to Manchester. Yeah.
00:37:46 Yeah. And he stayed in your mother's house. Is that right? He stayed with um with me at my mom and dad's house. Yeah, that's right. In Manchester. So, he met your parents.
00:37:57 So, he met your parents. Yeah. My mom and dad being my mom really made him welcome. She loved the fact he was Italian. Was always going on about food and all this sort of stuff. So, she enjoyed his his company.
00:38:08 enjoyed his his company. And while you were in Manchester, uh Mr. Saraki stayed at your flat or your 40th flat. No, he he he stayed in Manchester at my
00:38:20 No, he he he stayed in Manchester at my mom and dad's. Sorry. When you had moved to Manchester? I don't think he he [clears throat] might have done when we moved in. I'm not sure. I can't tell you that to be honest. Probably. It would have been
00:38:31 honest. Probably. It would have been unrealistic of me to send him all the way back back to London. If we could look at um MPS 0527068, [snorts] page 11 of that document,
00:38:42 [snorts] page 11 of that document, please.
00:38:58 0527068. So that's B31 of your bundle. And if we could go to please page
00:39:09 11.
00:39:22 And so here we see a document whereby you notify the City of London Corporation explaining the reasons that you're going to be away from your flat. Yeah.
00:39:33 Yeah. And you seek permission for your friend Mr. Ner to look after the flat. Yeah.
00:39:38 Yeah. We scroll back one page to page 10.
00:39:44 We see there's a receipt from you to cover a rent deposit to the Corporation of London
00:39:51 of London received from Mr. Ner. And then back to page nine, we can see here's the permission of the City of London Corporation
00:40:02 City of London Corporation uh allowing Mr. Ner to stay at your property uh in order to take care of it. Now, did he take care of the flat for you?
00:40:11 you? Well, yeah, he was there for, as far as I'm aware, he was there for the duration that I was away until FIA went back. Yeah. And when was that? Can you recall?
00:40:22 Yeah. And when was that? Can you recall? Around about 4 months into me moving north. I can't be really sure about that now. Fine. We might come to that in a minute. Uh, did he pay rent to you while he stayed
00:40:34 he pay rent to you while he stayed there?
00:40:39 Yes, because we were still due to pay the rent to the corporation. So, yes. Did he cover the full amount of the rent due to the city of London or did you also That's right. No, they just be really
00:40:51 That's right. No, they just be really clear that there was no profit involved in that transaction. It was literally he was covering the bills for the property at the time. Co covering the bills including the rent. Um, mainly the rent because the
00:41:03 rent. Um, mainly the rent because the gas and electric I think were I can't recall but I think the services would were included. The only one that wasn't would have been the telephone bill I would imagine. I'm not sure now. But you weren't subsidizing you weren't
00:41:14 But you weren't subsidizing you weren't continuing to pay anything yourself towards that flat whilst he stayed there. I think I think it I mean I can't tell I really can't remember what the transactional arrangement was but
00:41:26 transactional arrangement was but whatever it was it meant that we didn't fall into a rears for not paying the rent. I can't remember whether he paid us or he paid the corporation directly. Now as far as you're concerned you had a
00:41:38 Now as far as you're concerned you had a close friendship. If we could look now please at MPS070457.
00:41:45 So this is in Mr. Saraki's bundle of B98.
00:41:52 And this is a document dated the 2nd of January 2006 containing a list of Mr. Saraki's contacts. And we can see that there's an entry for you at the second entry in the table below Dan Gilman.
00:42:04 entry in the table below Dan Gilman. Yeah.
00:42:05 Yeah. The fifth column sets out the contact type. And for your entry that reads telephone and social. Yeah.
00:42:11 Yeah. Then the next column along is frequency. telephone twice a week, social on occasional visits to London. Do you remember Carlos Iraqi contacting you regularly in early 2006?
00:42:26 Not particularly. No, but um it would I guess it wouldn't have been surprising in terms of the 2006. I'm not sure to be honest. Okay. In terms of the frequency of contact is it is that a fair
00:42:38 contact is it is that a fair representation? I think he was on the phone to me all the time. I think less than that I would imagine less than that every every now and again just to keep in contact that would be my would
00:42:49 in contact that would be my would understand it how I would understand it. Um do you have any reaction to seeing your friendship set out like this as effective as a task list? Well I I one thing that I do have um
00:43:01 Well I I one thing that I do have um surprise at is that you still got me down as an anti-far activist and I wasn't. So, but apart from that, yes, of course, I really I had I had known at the time,
00:43:12 I had I had known at the time, obviously, it would have been very different. But it's not shocking. It's just why um uh you know, why when to be quite honest, myself and my
00:43:24 when to be quite honest, myself and my my comrades in arms were pretty much an open book. We didn't need the police to spy on us. They could have just asked us. They knew. They knew who we were. [clears throat]
00:43:36 I'd like to ask you now please about paragraph 15.3 of your statement. If we could bring that up please. It's page 38 of the document.
00:43:51 Um and at the second line of paragraph 15.3 you say, "Our friendship was such that toward the end of his time with no platform, I felt I could counsel him
00:44:03 platform, I felt I could counsel him when he confided in me about personal personal issues. I believed at the time that his sister had been a victim of sexual abuse and that this had surfaced around the period when his mother was either dying or had just passed away.
00:44:16 either dying or had just passed away. I remember spending a lot of time talking to him about these issues, offering empathy and support. What can you can you recall what Mr. Saraki told you about his sister's
00:44:28 Saraki told you about his sister's supposed abuse? Um
00:44:32 Um basically that this is this is my recollection was that when his mom had died
00:44:39 died um things had come to light that his sister had disclosed to him and that he was now he he was shocked and he was hurt by and and he was disclosing it to
00:44:51 hurt by and and he was disclosing it to me. He probably told other people as well I gather. Um,
00:44:59 basically he said that he'd found out that his his father had been abusing his sister. Um and obviously uh his mom had recently passed away and I know that
00:45:11 recently passed away and I know that comrades had tried to collect some money for him um to help him with any incident or costs
00:45:19 or costs and that his his his sister I can't recall if his sister lived or was supposed to live in the Midlands and that he was you know he was now in contact with his sister and that she was
00:45:31 contact with his sister and that she was going through a lot herself. So I I talked to him because a lot of the work that I did with with rough sleepers was about trauma and so I wanted to be there
00:45:42 about trauma and so I wanted to be there for somebody who's obviously gone through the trauma whose mom passing away which which is you know is no um easy thing for for anybody and then
00:45:53 um easy thing for for anybody and then to find out this revelation at that pretty painful time was was something that he I thought he wanted to talk about. So, we talked about it. I
00:46:04 talk about. So, we talked about it. I mean, and we spent a lot of time talking about it in some not into intimate detail about what had happened to his sister. I don't think that I'd be lying if I said that was the case, but it was
00:46:15 if I said that was the case, but it was um you know, how do you come to deal with that? How do you how do you ever get over finding out? How does he help his sister? That sort of stuff. So, assisting him as a friend and as someone with knowledge of trauma,
00:46:27 someone with knowledge of trauma, you just, you know, even just listening is is is a big thing in that environment. So yeah. Now you say um he didn't necessarily talk to you in in great detail about that.
00:46:39 that. At the time that he told you of this abuse, did he say it was sexual abuse? That's my
00:46:46 That's my understanding. Yes. Not physical, maybe both, but sexual was involved. And and that is that was your your understanding of that conversation that you had with Mr. Saraki. It's not
00:46:58 you had with Mr. Saraki. It's not something that's come in later with conversations with others. No. No. No, no, no, no. That's that's my um my my um recollection founded on
00:47:10 um my my um recollection founded on hours of discussion at the time. Did he tell you whether he had shared this information with anybody else?
00:47:18 else? [clears throat] Not within our within our friendship group as it were. No, I wasn't aware of that.
00:47:25 that. So So you So you're certain that the all of this came directly from Mr. Saraki? Oh yeah. No, no, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:47:38 I think he brought a photograph of his dad in once to show me as well around that time as an old bloke. Could have been anyone for all I knew, but at the time I thought it was his dad. I don't know what the point of that was at the
00:47:50 know what the point of that was at the time, but he was obviously trying to connect with with his family, trying to show me this was his dad and he he'd revered him and now he's found out stuff about him that that he he hated.
00:48:03 about him that that he he hated. How do you feel now knowing that this was all part of a confection? Um,
00:48:10 Um, well, I mean, look, I'm I'm going to tell you I felt feel bad that I've been misused in that way, but I guess now in hindsight, you know, I understand his
00:48:21 hindsight, you know, I understand his mom did die. So, I suspect there was an element of it [clears throat] was genuine and like a lot of these things, it's very close to the truth, but not the truth. And I feel that you know
00:48:34 the truth. And I feel that you know irrespective of this irrespective of this
00:48:39 this if I had helped him at that time that was a man who was in pain. Now whether or not that was manufactured pain for me is another issue. Whether that was part
00:48:50 is another issue. Whether that was part of his I'm moving away and this is the story I'm telling in hindsight I think that's really manipulative. But if if it hadn't been and that was the case, I still feel that, you know,
00:49:03 the case, I still feel that, you know, the guy was has lost his mom. I've lost my mom. I know exactly what it's like.
00:49:10 Now, we understand that Mr. Saraki moved into Donna Mlan's flat in late 2002 or potentially early 2003, but prior to that point, he lived in
00:49:22 but prior to that point, he lived in Hutton.
00:49:24 Hutton. Um I think you said you visited his flat on Narrow Way. Um but was that the flat before he lived in Hutton? Yes.
00:49:34 Yes. Did you visit Mr. Saraki's Homton flat? Um
00:49:40 Um I I did visit that flat. Whether I can't remember whether it was there or not though because I knew the owner. Oh well that depends because we're talking about two different things I
00:49:51 talking about two different things I think.
00:49:52 think. Uh, possib Oh, possibly. Yes. So, before he moved in with Miss McClean, he lived at an address in Hutton, right? I never went to that address.
00:50:05 right? I never went to that address. Did you ever meet uh Mrs. Saraki shared that flat with another officer, um, HN77, who's known as Jacqueline Anderson?
00:50:15 Anderson? No, not to the best of my knowledge. You never met her? Not to the best of my knowledge. No. Were you aware that he had a housemate? No,
00:50:30 because I would have thought had had I been aware that we say, you know, you bring the housemate along to social dough stopping it. So, I would have probably said that. So, no.
00:50:43 probably said that. So, no. Um, and you were aware of a relationship between Mr. Saraki and Lindsay and then obviously later aware of the relationship between Don McClean
00:50:55 of the relationship between Don McClean and Mr. Saraki. Were you aware of any relationship that he may have had in between those two? Um,
00:51:06 Um, I was aware of a um nebulous relationship between um Carlo and a woman who moved to
00:51:18 um Carlo and a woman who moved to Australia, but I don't think they were romantically involved. I think he would have liked there to have been a romantic involvement, but that didn't happen.
00:51:29 involvement, but that didn't happen. Mr. Saraki has said that when he lived with uh HN77, Jacqueline Anderson, that his his wearies, his his the
00:51:41 that his his wearies, his his the activists who he was influent infiltrating thought he was having a relationship with this um Jacqueline Anderson. Was that something that of which you had
00:51:53 Was that something that of which you had any knowledge? No recollection of that.
00:52:02 At paragraph 12.4 of your witness statement, you refer to traveling with Mr. S uh Mr. Saraki and that you went with him to a European
00:52:13 that you went with him to a European conference in Florence. Do you do you remember that? I do. I can't remember an awful lot about it, but I do remember going to Florence. Yeah. And was that for the European Social Forum in November 2002? It it may well
00:52:25 Forum in November 2002? It it may well have been um Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Please could we show MPS 0010591?
00:52:35 So that's B28 in the bundle.
00:52:49 This report is dated the 8th of October 2002 and refers to four named individuals attending. Uh so you, Steve Hedley, Alfred, and Foia
00:53:02 Hedley, Alfred, and Foia um planning to go to the social form in Florence in November. Okay.
00:53:09 Okay. So also presumably Mr. Sarrai was planning on attending and did attend. He did attend. Yeah. I don't think I can't say whether Steve Hedley was there. I don't think Alfred went and I
00:53:21 there. I don't think Alfred went and I know FZY didn't go. Okay.
00:53:25 Okay. So potentially just us away. Do you know whether Donna Mlan was supposed to join you for that trip? No.
00:53:37 How long did you had you planned how long before traveling had you planned to travel to Florence? Was it something that was long in the in the office? I really couldn't tell you. I'm sorry.
00:53:48 really couldn't tell you. I'm sorry. Um,
00:53:50 Um, you say in your witness statement you hadn't planned to go to this initially, but Mr. Saraki insisted. Did Did you take Donna Mlan's plane ticket to travel? That transferred to
00:54:03 ticket to travel? That transferred to you or not, or did you book your own train?
00:54:05 train? No.
00:54:07 No. Plane ticket. Sorry. Was there any other occasion where you traveled to Italy with Mr.
00:54:24 No, I'm not I can't say for definite to be honest, but I don't think so. So there's the there's the there's the trip that you make with Foia which he's not present and you but you meet you
00:54:35 not present and you but you meet you meet
00:54:35 meet that was that was ourselves and then there's this where you go with Mr.
00:54:40 Mr. Correct.
00:54:40 Correct. Thank you. We went for um there was a big demonstration through Florence and we were both on it and um because we passed it was a very
00:54:53 um because we passed it was a very beautiful city but we passed um like a an apartment block that was built into some bastions and um the uh the author Dario Fo was giving cups of tea to
00:55:06 Dario Fo was giving cups of tea to passers by which stuck in my mind because it was a very surreal picture. I wouldn't have known it was Dario Fo. Carlo told me it was Dario Fo. So on that trip, where did you stay?
00:55:20 We stayed in the hotel, but I it must have been in Florence. I I don't recall the arrangements. There's the little bits that stick out are just the memorable bits and that was the
00:55:31 memorable bits and that was the memorable bit and the march. That was about it. A beautiful place to to walk around irrespective of being a march. Could I take you please to NPS 207194?
00:55:44 Could I take you please to NPS 207194? So this is excuse me B58 [clears throat]
00:55:49 page five.
00:55:54 Thank you. We look down for the entry for October November 2002. It says this. October November 2002 CI spends a week in
00:56:05 November 2002 CI spends a week in Florence, Italy. lives with an Italian anarco associate in a squat on the outskirts of the city. Takes part in the ESF held in the city and is able to
00:56:16 ESF held in the city and is able to build up a picture of the UK extremists link with Italian groups. Provides intel indicating an emerging connection between UK and Italian extremists. Takes part in a 900,000 strong demo around
00:56:28 part in a 900,000 strong demo around Florence. Again, keeps UK SP contingent out of harm's way. waves at Dario Fo, an Italian literary genius, on his balcony. Now,
00:56:40 Now, first taking it in pieces, first of all, he suggests that he's he lived with an Italian anarcho associate in a squat on the outskirts of the city. Well, first going back, is this the trip
00:56:51 Well, first going back, is this the trip that you went on from what you can see? Well, the the end bit certainly is the demonstration through through Florence. I don't recall the well I know I didn't stay for a week in Florence. I would
00:57:03 stay for a week in Florence. I would love to have spent a week in Florence but I didn't. It was barely a weekend if that. Um so that bit may he may have done that independently
00:57:14 done that independently and then I joined him. I don't think we traveled together so that would make sense.
00:57:20 sense. Um
00:57:21 Um but when you were there you you didn't stay in a squad. Is that No, no, I would have remembered that.
00:57:30 And when when you were there, were you with um a Socialist Party contingent? Was it just the two of you? May have been on the demonstration with a CWI contingent. Yeah.
00:57:44 a CWI contingent. Yeah. Or Italian Socialist Party contingent. And there may have been people from the Socialist Party who were there incidentally because they would have been in Italy at the time with Socialist Party on Socialist Party activities. But
00:57:56 Party on Socialist Party activities. But I can't say with any degree of uh clarity as to who that was or anything. And when you were there, were you aware of any emerging connection between UK and Italian extremists?
00:58:08 and Italian extremists? Not at all. I mean that the whole premise is like wow that's just not in if only there was none of that sort of stuff going on. Not if only we were in
00:58:19 stuff going on. Not if only we were in contact with terrorists by the way just in if only it was that easy to build up networks. No, we hadn't and we didn't. Thank you. Moving on.
00:58:31 Thank you. Moving on. Um, on at least 10 occasions during his deployment, Mr. Saraki reported on your personal contact details, including personal and work addresses, personal work telephone numbers, mobile, and the
00:58:43 work telephone numbers, mobile, and the fact of your cohabitation with FOSIA. What's your reaction to seeing such a lot of personal information reported over a four year period? so invasive and unnecessary. I'm not actually sure how
00:58:56 unnecessary. I'm not actually sure how that information helps apart from I don't know giving opportunities for us to be
00:59:05 to be I don't know invaded by by by the police force with no no ulterior motive apart from sharing that information. And it's of no, you
00:59:17 that information. And it's of no, you know, you could get that information from the telephone directory as was then, but there was no need to do that. I mean, sim similarly, Mr. Saraki's reporting includes details about your
00:59:28 reporting includes details about your employment status, including you losing your job in 2004. If we could just look at a couple of those reports briefly. Um, MPS 2031 987.
00:59:39 987. So that's B41.
00:59:45 This is a report dated 27th of February 2004. And we can see it contains a reference to you being made redundant and provides an indication of the expected redundancy pay.
01:14:01 that Mr. Saraki's deployment may have affected your ability to apply for certain positions or officers, specifically working as an independent reviewer of police complaints and sitting as a magistrate. Could we please
01:14:14 sitting as a magistrate. Could we please bring up MPS 2000 32327? So that's B44 in the bundle.
01:14:23 which should be a report dated the 29th of March 2004. The heading is here. Extreme left-wing supporters may join new police complaints section. Um under the
01:14:35 complaints section. Um under the intelligence section, it states Joe Batty and other extreme left-wing activists have expressed an interest in applying for one of a number of jobs with the new police complaints department, independent police complaints commission. And then in the
01:14:47 complaints commission. And then in the source comment, it is viewed as an opportunity as to as to really cause damage to the Met Police. Many of those who are interested in applying do not have criminal records and are therefore
01:14:58 have criminal records and are therefore hopeful they will easily pass any vetting procedures. How far did you get with that application? Um I I recall making an application and
01:15:09 Um I I recall making an application and hearing nothing back.
01:15:13 Now you say in your statement that this that you consider that that was nothing that it was nothing less than a blatant attempt to interfere with your ability to gain employment in that sector. Why do you think that amounts to why do
01:15:24 Why do you think that amounts to why do you suggest that amounts to interference? Because it's been reported that that was our intentionality and it's been spun saying that we we
01:15:35 and it's been spun saying that we we were intent on disrupting the Met Police. actually, you know, how precient we were when we consider what they were actually doing. But the the issue here
01:15:46 actually doing. But the the issue here is that I wanted to use my experience and I know another person wanted to use their experience in working with vulnerable adults to ensure that you
01:15:58 vulnerable adults to ensure that you know they they were also getting justice or were heard. So by by it by inferring that we were doing it for nefarious reasons, it undermines
01:16:11 it for nefarious reasons, it undermines us doing it and and you I don't know where this information stopped, you know, and and um I'd had discussions with the uh with the Socialist Party about not getting involved in some of
01:16:23 about not getting involved in some of these issues, but because of the work I'd been involved in, I really felt it was important that that we were we were giving voice to voiceless people. And that's what we wanted to use to use our
01:16:34 that's what we wanted to use to use our privilege of being involved in the section sector for a very long time and our our skills as people who can listen and can advocate to ensure that we could
01:16:45 and can advocate to ensure that we could do a good job. And actually this this certainly changed the direction that I was looking at for work. So I didn't do that. I mean it wouldn't have been a a job that would kept me in Clover. That
01:16:57 job that would kept me in Clover. That was just another thing along along with what I was already doing. And that's actually what that was. And I and I and I didn't do uh the magistrate's um process precisely because I didn't
01:17:10 um process precisely because I didn't hear anything from this. So I thought there's no point. So you heard nothing back, but you weren't given it. And that presumably includes the reason why you we weren't taken further. Um
01:17:21 Um and and that's me looking backwards. I couldn't I couldn't possibly know what was [clears throat] being said at the time. This is this is 2020 vision from from seeing statements.
01:17:33 from from seeing statements. Uh my final prepared question is whether there's anything else that you would like this inquiry to understand about your experience of undercover policing and the impact it's had on you.
01:17:46 part of my um part of my work life for well since since I came to London which was about 200 uh sorry 1993 until I left
01:18:03 was about 200 uh sorry 1993 until I left um was working with vulnerable adults often um in in contact with the police. Um, I worked
01:18:14 in contact with the police. Um, I worked with the police consistently during that period. I sat on mapper panels. I was involved in working with people who perhaps were not wanted in the city of
01:18:27 perhaps were not wanted in the city of London, people who were sex offenders who were sleeping out. And throughout that po period of time I I had cont uh consistent um contact and a very
01:18:38 consistent um contact and a very fruitful contract uh contact with in particular the city of London police. So when I saw what had happened afterwards,
01:18:49 when I saw what had happened afterwards, uh when I when I realized what had happened afterwards and when I saw what the level of um of interference there had been in my life, it did it it has shaken me when it
01:19:02 life, it did it it has shaken me when it comes to being so free and easy working with the police. And look, not everybody would would like the fact that I work with the police, but I had to do it
01:19:14 with the police, but I had to do it because it's my job and I did it willingly because in the in the theater that I was working in, they were very important partners. When I saw what this officer and others
01:19:27 When I saw what this officer and others had done,
01:19:30 had done, I it made me re-evaluate whether or not I'd been doing the right thing. So it's it has changed my outlook and it has changed the way that I would have wanted
01:19:43 changed the way that I would have wanted to continue to work in the sector
01:19:50 and that I brought that forward um what had happened and the experience of what had happened to my last job which I worked for eight years with the
01:20:03 which I worked for eight years with the community of North Kensington that was affected by the Grenall the fire. And throughout the period that I was involved in that, I really, really, really struggled
01:20:16 I really, really, really struggled to not say to people in their campaign groups, you really ought to be careful because the police will be sitting in your meetings recording the things you
01:20:27 your meetings recording the things you do and invading your personal life. And that for me, that for me was really horrible. And I told them as I just as I will say now that I hope you get justice
01:20:40 will say now that I hope you get justice through your inquiry system just that I like I hope that this will uh provide justice for people because if not
01:20:51 if not why do why do people at the bottom end of the scale believe there's ever going to be any justice? And and that for me it really hurt me. It hurts me now and and I'll
01:21:04 hurt me. It hurts me now and and I'll leave it there. Thank you very much, Mr. Batty. Those are all the questions I've prepared for you. I will now have a short break to see whether there's any that others uh would like asked and then your council
01:21:15 would like asked and then your council may have some reamination. Sir,
01:21:18 Sir, we'll break for 10 minutes. I'm grateful. Thank you. Do I get to meet
01:32:53 Yes, sir. Please report there are no rule 10 questions that have been received and I understand from Mr. Marcus that there's no um re-examination.
01:33:04 I do have one or two questions if I may ask them. Um may I make it clear, please tell me to get lost if you don't want to answer them. Um and then may I explain my reasons for asking? Uh I've heard uh
01:33:16 my reasons for asking? Uh I've heard uh from uh a significant number of uh women who have been um adversely affected by their relationships with uh undercover officers in their cover identity and the
01:33:29 officers in their cover identity and the impact it's had on them is one of the things that has become very clear in the course of the hearings that uh I've been conducting. I've less [clears throat] understanding
01:33:40 I've less [clears throat] understanding about the impact on those who were friends of undercover officers and in particular someone like yourself who interacted with the police in your
01:33:52 interacted with the police in your ordinary life and I would like if I may with your help to know a bit more about that if you're willing to share it with me.
01:33:58 me. Of course I am. Yeah. Right. Um
01:34:04 could you help me with um the paid work that you have done in the course of your life?
01:34:10 life? Yeah. Um the first decade of my working life I I worked um either in uh business or worked for a record shop. Then I worked in the
01:34:22 record shop. Then I worked in the supermarket. Then I worked in the electronics industry for Fantis who made computers. Subsequent to that, I then went to university via Ruskin College Oxford and
01:34:35 university via Ruskin College Oxford and then University of Kent. When I finished that, I spent a few years working with um young people leaving care. Um and the the idea of that was to steer them away
01:34:47 the idea of that was to steer them away from um falling into the wrong sorts of behavior patterns and to help them be independent. I did that in Chelenham. Um after that I moved to to London and
01:35:00 after that I moved to to London and me and Foia worked together um as um a kind of responsible tenant for London and Quadrant and then Barnet
01:35:11 for London and Quadrant and then Barnet City Social Barnett Social Services living with carelevers um and people who were ex-offenders trying to role model um what living um independently entails.
01:35:27 um what living um independently entails. Uh concurrent to that I worked um firstly for St. Mongols um over in um Swiss Cottage working with
01:35:38 um over in um Swiss Cottage working with people with uh mental health issues um who had a history of homelessness. And then after that I worked for St.
01:35:49 And then after that I worked for St. Bottles project which was a homelessness day center based not far from here at old gate underneath the church at St. BS. I worked there for approximately 11 years um working specifically with rough
01:36:03 years um working specifically with rough rough sleepers. I ran the day center for a while. I ran services that gave advice and information to rough sleepers. But I also ran which is my I guess my main
01:36:15 also ran which is my I guess my main cause for for work in homelessness. I ran rough sleeper services for the city of London and Tower Hamlets. So I was responsible for getting people off the streets and into um long-term
01:36:28 streets and into um long-term accommodation. And as a point of fact and something that might be interesting as a as a side issue is I was responsible um for negotiating with the people who
01:36:39 um for negotiating with the people who had the occupy um camp outside here. outside. Well, it was in fact directly outside here because it became a um a
01:36:50 outside here because it became a um a magnet for people with mental health and other issues to be drawn towards the camp encampment as well. So I I actually was an intermediary between the
01:37:02 was an intermediary between the Corporation of London and the the camp on the issue of enabling them um to to get the correct uh [clears throat] pathway for people who'd gravitated
01:37:14 pathway for people who'd gravitated there so that they weren't left behind when the encampment was closed. Um moving on from that, I went to um
01:37:25 moving on from that, I went to um to work where where did I work? I can't remember. Oh, I went to the northwest of England, as you know, um to um to work for a drug and alcohol project. I ran Old's um alcohol and drug services for
01:37:38 Old's um alcohol and drug services for two years. Um and then I came back to London. When I came back to London, I worked for Broadway um working in West London um where I w led the uh outreach
01:37:52 London um where I w led the uh outreach services in Hammersmith and Fulham and Kensington and Chelsea. Um, and then when Broadway emerged with St. Mongo's um I ran a large portfolio of um rough
01:38:06 um I ran a large portfolio of um rough sleeping services eventually across the southeast from um uh South End on Sea through to services in uh East and West
01:38:17 through to services in uh East and West Sussex as well as the city of London, Tower Hamlets and etc etc. So I had a a a a wide portfolio o of rough sleeping services and in the course of that in in
01:38:29 services and in the course of that in in the course of doing that I I frequently had to work with local police services on finding solutions to problematic street use um which which is in fact
01:38:40 street use um which which is in fact what I led on um often in the city of London. So I actually designed uh what they call the assertive out outreach model and I worked with um en enforcement agencies to make sure that
01:38:53 enforcement agencies to make sure that there was a correct solution for people sleeping on the streets. Um subsequent to that I was made redundant um about nine years ago now and I worked
01:39:04 um about nine years ago now and I worked in West London uh for Kensington uh for the um Kensington and Chelsea Social Council which is an umbrella organization for charities in in
01:39:15 organization for charities in in Kensington and Chelsea. My specific brief um was commu community development work. So it was helping the community specifically around Grenell Tower um to
01:39:28 specifically around Grenell Tower um to articulate and to be the architects of their future post the fire. So how they interacted with um statutory services uh how they interacted with uh health care
01:39:41 how they interacted with uh health care to ensure that they got models of care and pathways to deal with the trauma of the fire. Um and I and I subsequently finished that um last year in October
01:39:54 finished that um last year in October and I'm working elsewhere in community development in the north of England. And in the course of that work plainly you had to interact with police
01:40:06 you had to interact with police services, Metropolitan Police and other police forces. Um what sort of uh interaction did you have with them? Um
01:40:17 interaction did you have with them? Um mainly my interaction mainly was around um activities where the community I mean actually in the city of London it's particularly interesting because a lot
01:40:29 particularly interesting because a lot of the city of London um counselors are very influential um and they they they often would phone you as like you were some sort of international rescue to go and solve a situation for them that was
01:40:41 and solve a situation for them that was very intractable. But the issue with the police would have been that we would was trying to um ensure that people weren't criminalized for for rough sleeping, but
01:40:52 criminalized for for rough sleeping, but that they weren't left there for an indefinite period of time because everybody has a right to decent environment. and and rough sleepers have
01:41:03 environment. and and rough sleepers have a right to have a roof over their heads. But sometimes there's a conflict between the two because people will quite rightly the barbecue for example were forever phoning up saying there was an
01:41:14 forever phoning up saying there was an issue with people sleeping rough under their parapit. Well yes it's warm it's safe but people we the challenge was to try and get people out without it
01:41:25 try and get people out without it becoming a problem. So I that was the the interface. However, there were other things that went on such as we would be aware that there were people on sex offenders register
01:41:38 were people on sex offenders register who would be sleeping rough in the city of London and would be perhaps sleeping underneath a building uh because it's quite legal to do that. I don't know if people are aware, but you can sign on as
01:41:50 people are aware, but you can sign on as saying you sleep under the steps at the barbecue, and that's quite okay, but not necessarily okay for the people who live in the barbecue who are unaware that that's a situation. By the way, as far as I'm aware, there's nobody sleeping
01:42:01 as I'm aware, there's nobody sleeping underneath the steps at the barbecue who's a sex offender. Now, I just want to be really clear, but this was a this was would have been the conversations that we had. So occasionally I'd go to mappa meetings and talk about um
01:42:13 mappa meetings and talk about um particular people who were vulnerable on the streets who would be of not known to be have serious or or serious violent and sexual um cases in their history.
01:42:32 I doubt that I will ever be able to discover um to what extent if at all the fact that you had a registry file with Metropolitan Police special branch had
01:42:43 Metropolitan Police special branch had any influence on police interaction with you. I mean it's a very big organization and um
01:42:53 and um in the nature of things it won't work perfectly. Um I on reflection is there any respect in which you think the fact that you did
01:43:04 in which you think the fact that you did have a registry file which plainly originated with um Carlo Zarachi reporting on you did that have any influence as far as you can tell in
01:43:15 influence as far as you can tell in their dealings with you?
01:43:21 I can't know. I I can't know. Look, there's there just the sus there this there's just the s the suspicion that there was a look I've just outlined my my uh CV as it were and that makes me
01:43:35 my uh CV as it were and that makes me a really good candidate for a number of those areas because I understand the millu of
01:43:42 millu of working with people who are vulnerable when they interface with the police or drug services or the rest. So the fact that I never got a response to being able to be an interface between the
01:43:54 able to be an interface between the community and people who who have complaints about the police does show me that somebody definitely sat on it for whatever reason. That's my belief. I can't know for definite. You're
01:44:05 can't know for definite. You're absolutely correct. Well, I I I stated in advance, I think the chances of my finding out whether the fact that you had a registry file had any impact on
01:44:16 had a registry file had any impact on your dealings with the police all those years ago. Um, and in particular, you're applying for the two positions or applying for one position then not the other.
01:44:27 other. I I I think any chance I might have of finding out whether uh they did there was any influence is pretty negligible. Sure. But um
01:44:39 thank you very much indeed. Given me an insight into uh the impact of undercover policing in a particular case, yours um
01:44:51 policing in a particular case, yours um in a manner that uh I haven't heard before and I'm unlikely to hear again. I'm very grateful indeed to you for coming and speaking to me about it.
01:45:02 coming and speaking to me about it. Thank you. Does anybody have any questions arising out of what I've asked? No, sir. Thank you very much. Again, may I repeat my thanks to you? Very grateful to you indeed. Thank you.
01:45:15 Thank you. And that uh concludes your stay for the time being in London.
01:45:23 I'll just leave the stuff on here. Yes.