This portion of the hearing covers the background and political activism of witness Joseph Batty, focusing on his early involvement in anti-fascist movements, his roles within trade unions, and the founding of the organization 'No Platform'. The session also introduces the role of undercover officer Carlos Saraki (HN 104) and examines the nature of Batty's relationship with him and the activities of the 'Away Team'.
00:16:02 Mr. Batty, good morning. My wife is on crutches. I well understand the position.
00:16:07 position. If ever you need a break in the course of this morning, uh which isn't planned for, do please say so and it will be given immediately. No problem. Thank you very much.
00:16:18 No problem. Thank you very much. Good morning everybody. Uh this is the resumed evidential hearing in TR 3, the beginning of part two of that resumed hearing. Uh it is going to be broadcast
00:16:30 hearing. Uh it is going to be broadcast uh over the airwaves, but only after a 10-minute delay uh since the uh event occurring in the hearing. Those with mobile devices may use them to transmit
00:16:43 mobile devices may use them to transmit what they hear in the proceedings to the outside world, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're describing. They may not be used for recording or photography.
00:16:54 for recording or photography. Yes. Thank you. Like to repeat after me. I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:17:05 declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth
00:17:19 Mr. Batty, thank you very much for attending to assist the inquiry with your evidence today. Um, my questions are intended to be short and simple, but if you have any difficulty understanding
00:17:30 if you have any difficulty understanding them and you'd like me to uh repeat or rephrase a question, please do ask. As the chair's indicated, we will have uh a break midm morning, but if you need a short break at any time, please also say
00:17:43 short break at any time, please also say uh may I also ask that you keep your voice up and uh speak reasonably slowly so the transcribers can follow your evidence.
00:17:53 evidence. You've provided a witness statement to this inquiry. Please can we display control number UCPI 320 uh 3742?
00:18:04 Uh this is a statement dated the 3rd of April and consists of 44 pages. If we could turn to page 44, please see it is signed. Um can you confirm that the statement is
00:18:15 Um can you confirm that the statement is true to the best of your knowledge and belief?
00:18:18 belief? I can.
00:18:19 I can. And are you happy for this statement to be taken as your evidence to the inquiry?
00:18:23 inquiry? I am.
00:18:24 I am. So may I ask that Mr. Batty's uh evidence be admitted into evidence? So you're aware the topics I shall cover today uh will include your background, your involvement with activist groups
00:18:36 your involvement with activist groups but in particular your involvement with no platform and their activities in relation to the extreme rightwing uh violence, your views and undercover officer reporting on particular events
00:18:48 officer reporting on particular events with which we understand you may have been involved. your knowledge and relationship with an undercover officer HN 104 Carlos Saraki known to you I believe as Carlo Ner uh including your
00:19:01 believe as Carlo Ner uh including your recollection of Mr. Saraki's involvement with no platform and of his uh deceitful sexual relationships the allegation that Mr. Saraki uh
00:19:12 the allegation that Mr. Saraki uh encouraged you and others to attack a charity shop uh reporting by Mr. Saraki on your relationship with your partner and the impact of his deployment on you personally.
00:19:24 personally. I'd like to start please with your background. You grew up in Greater Manchester and became interested in socialism in the mid to late 1970s when you were around 13 or 14. Is that right?
00:19:35 you were around 13 or 14. Is that right? Correct.
00:19:36 Correct. At paragraph 2.2 two of your statement, which is on page two, you explain that in around 1978 to 1979, the National
00:19:47 in around 1978 to 1979, the National Front began to leaflet your school. What effect did that have on you? Um, it was the first time that I I had actually heard of or seen the National
00:19:58 actually heard of or seen the National Front. Um I lived on the outskirts of Manchester in between Manchester and Olden which by this time was becoming quite a multicultural community uh in
00:20:09 quite a multicultural community uh in quite a quick period of time. So there was a lot of change within the local community. Um South Chan School itself which I attended wasn't racially mixed or was very uh sparsely racially mixed
00:20:21 or was very uh sparsely racially mixed at the time but I had grown up with friends who were from different communities. So for me to see a section of my school being targeted by to be
00:20:34 of my school being targeted by to be honest men with skin heads and boots cuz that's how the National Front presented themselves at the time was uh was a little bit terrifying to be honest. So myself and and some of my colleagues
00:20:46 myself and and some of my colleagues decided that we would try to um leaflet ourselves at the gates to make sure that our community felt that it was it was um protected by people who were there. So
00:20:57 protected by people who were there. So it was it was a dawning of me as a political person really. And as a consequence of of the National Fronts activity, you began to attend anti-Nazi league demonstrations and
00:21:08 anti-Nazi league demonstrations and activities. Was the leafleting you've just mentioned part of that or was that a separate entity? No, I I think at the time it was um it was our attempt as students really. Um I hadn't really um
00:21:21 students really. Um I hadn't really um reached out to to branches of the ENL as it it was called uh then but it but it did spiral from that when people from the ANL came along to the the uh the
00:21:32 the ANL came along to the the uh the school gates as it were and we met with them and then we went to a branch meeting of the ANL or a meeting rather of the ANL. So, so you you had some contact with the ANL, but you say in
00:21:43 contact with the ANL, but you say in your statement that you were not a member of the ANL. I've never been a member.
00:21:46 member. Why didn't you join? Um, I was at that I guess I was at that space when I was a young lad. I I really didn't know what I wanted to join and I
00:21:57 didn't know what I wanted to join and I didn't want to join anything in particular. I'd rather, if I'm honest, just join a game of football at the time. So, I was really not yet formed as a political person.
00:22:09 a political person. You say there was then a break in your involvement with organized political activity for some years. But you became active once more after you joined the GMBB trade union when you started work uh in about 1982.
00:22:22 uh in about 1982. So when you were about 19 years old, is that right? Yeah. Uh I actually had um a part-time job. I was at a a college um Olden technical college and I got a part-time
00:22:33 technical college and I got a part-time job at uh Asda in Chhattan and uh a prerequisite for joining the workforce there at the time because they had a close shop was to join a member of a union
00:22:43 union and you say at paragraph 2.4 of your statement that that joining that union rekindled your interest in socialist politics. What how did it do that? Well, I was working with people who
00:22:55 Well, I was working with people who understood why they should be in a trade union. So they, you know, obviously when you're a young person and you don't have a lot of money and somebody's asking you for a subscription out of that money, you want to know what you're spending it
00:23:06 you want to know what you're spending it for. So there was conversations about why that was. And then that really explained to me how the world of work works and why it's important to be a trade unionist. So from that, obviously
00:23:18 trade unionist. So from that, obviously the trade union movement is part of the wider labor movement, which I didn't really know existed until then. And you became more involved with the trade unions, first becoming a shop steward at
00:23:29 unions, first becoming a shop steward at Fanti Computer Systems. Yeah.
00:23:31 Yeah. And then the trade union branch president for the semi-skilled workforce of South Manchester. What did those roles involve? Um the first uh role was representing the workforce within uh my local Fanti
00:23:45 the workforce within uh my local Fanti branch which was uh foresies in Withershore which um sadly dissolved after a massive fraud. Uh but that was representing members uh in in in the workplace who got into trouble uh
00:23:58 workplace who got into trouble uh representing the workforce on things like wages, terms and conditions and also uh feeding into the wider joint shop stews committee that the uh
00:24:09 shop stews committee that the uh national organization of fantis had. Um being a branch president uh involved bringing people from different workplaces together seamans sugards
00:24:22 wlex and others in the withershore shastang districts of of uh south Manchester. So that was about organizing on a bigger scale and as part of those a part of that that
00:24:33 and as part of those a part of that that latter role I think you were involved in the national campaign to bail out Fanti meeting with cabinet ministers. Yeah. um um met under Secretary of State Tim um on more than one occasion to
00:24:47 Tim um on more than one occasion to argue the point that Francis was the only major computer organization that we had at the B at the birth or the nation uh birth should I say of the computer
00:24:58 uh birth should I say of the computer tech industries and that we um invented the computer and we were likely to walk away from that field because the government um failed to respond to the
00:25:09 government um failed to respond to the needs of of for anti PLC. Yeah. And there was no state intervention to to no state intervention. They considered it to be a a lame duck as they called it which was a well we're we're still
00:25:20 which was a well we're we're still paying for really because we don't have our own uh significant computer manufacturing base any longer. Now in 1989 you won a scholarship to study at Ruskin College in Oxford. Um,
00:25:34 study at Ruskin College in Oxford. Um, while at Ruskin College, you became a member of the college's labor club and I understand you were active in campaigns at the university and in the city of Oxford.
00:25:44 Oxford. Yeah.
00:25:44 Yeah. What form did that involvement take? It was mainly to be honest um it was representing workers at workers students within the um the faculty um at uh
00:25:56 within the um the faculty um at uh Rushkin College but it was mainly external. So he was working with workers at Cowi, the uh Cowi factory which was then British land who were um in danger
00:26:07 then British land who were um in danger of losing their jobs. took part in a survey of workforce to try and find a different solution to what was happening at the the Cowi plant um because we were
00:26:19 at the the Cowi plant um because we were in danger of losing again that seems to be a theme um an indigenous British car manufacturing base and of course uh Cowoo is famous uh for car making the
00:26:30 Cowoo is famous uh for car making the Mini etc.
00:26:31 Mini etc. Then in 1991 you left Oxford to study for a degree in British labor history and modern British politics at the University of Kent. Uh am I right that
00:26:42 University of Kent. Uh am I right that it was at the University of Kent that you first met Dan Gilman? Yes. Correct. And I understand that you were in the University of Kent Labor Club together. Yeah.
00:26:52 Yeah. And that together you built up the membership of the club. How did you do that?
00:26:56 that? Um by holding meetings that were interesting for people to attend. Um we were able to um as we had previously when I was at Ruskin College by the way, we were able to uh reach into um a rich
00:27:10 we were able to uh reach into um a rich address book of of contacts we had with Labour MPs and with um trade union leaders and stuff to get people down to talk about things that are of interest to students in this instance, but also
00:27:24 to students in this instance, but also to raise issues on of global issues that might interest students as well. and and through that we went from I think a handful of people like nine nine or 10
00:27:35 handful of people like nine nine or 10 uh in the year before uh we arrived uh Dan I have to say was a really good secretary I was just the mouthpiece which I'm sure you're realizing already
00:27:46 which I'm sure you're realizing already um Dan was the uh person who put a lot of effort into making sure contacts were followed up and we had aboutund 100 and odd people involved actively involved by
00:27:57 odd people involved actively involved by the end of the first Yeah. With you as president. Um, yeah. Uh, if that was the title. I can't remember if that was the title. Uh, is it right that you attended the demonstration at Welling with the Labor
00:28:10 demonstration at Welling with the Labor Club?
00:28:10 Club? Yeah, it is. And that's the large scale demonstration on the 16th of October 1983, was it? Yes.
00:28:16 Yes. We've heard a lot of evidence already about Welling, so I don't want to go into it in in particular detail, but what was your involvement as at Welling? Okay. So um the labor club uh laid on a
00:28:28 Okay. So um the labor club uh laid on a at least one coach, it may have been two coaches from the University of Kent filled with students who wanted to attend the demonstration. Um it was a cross-section of the community. We had
00:28:39 cross-section of the community. We had blind students. We had people who were uh with different disabilities. We had a large uh section of the women's group there. So it was a it was quite a diverse group that we we took along to
00:28:50 diverse group that we we took along to Welling. um myself and Dan and other comrades as it were then of the of the socialist movement and also of CAFAC which we were we formed uh a little bit
00:29:02 which we were we formed uh a little bit earlier with members of the socialist party which was then known as militant labor I believe um we were there to steward that demonstration from the student point of view so we were there
00:29:13 student point of view so we were there to make sure that the people who we' uh invited along to that demonstration were looked after and was were safe and secure in what turned out to be quite a
00:29:24 secure in what turned out to be quite a a large demonstration about 50,000 plus on it.
00:29:27 on it. And what form did your stewarding on that day take? Um really it was it was it took the um the shape of keeping people together,
00:29:38 the shape of keeping people together, making sure that people were safe, ensuring that uh if there was any pushes in the crowd that the people at the front of the demonstration and at the side of the demonstration were linking
00:29:49 side of the demonstration were linking arms. because by linking arms that creates a buffer against uh people being pushed over um which sadly um we needed because of course it did turn out to be
00:30:01 because of course it did turn out to be quite violent at the front when but I I can't say but I think the police attacked the front of the demonstration for whatever reason that has ramifications um for a big demonstration further down
00:30:12 um for a big demonstration further down the line as ripples take place from people who are recoiling from the assault
00:30:18 assault and do I take it from that answer that you were further down the demonstration. We were probably a third back. Um we were actually at the side of um the cemetery if anybody knows the geography.
00:30:29 cemetery if anybody knows the geography. Um and because of the sheer weight of numbers pushed back incidentally, the cemetery wall collapsed. I don't know if anybody's uh mentioned that. And that was uh a really quite a dangerous uh
00:30:40 was uh a really quite a dangerous uh moment for the people who were there. Thank you very much. uh paragraph uh 2.12 of your statement about halfway through the paragraph you say this uh it
00:30:51 through the paragraph you say this uh it was at this time I became a militant supporter and during this period along with local activists we set up Kent Anti-fascist action committee CAFAC this was a loose federation of
00:31:02 this was a loose federation of socialists and trade unionists across the Kent area who were interested in campaigning against the rise of the national front and in particular the growth of the British National Party in the Kent area so obviously that's during your time at
00:31:14 so obviously that's during your time at the University of Kent. Yes.
00:31:16 Yes. And when you say we set up CAFAC, is that a reference to you and Mr. Gilman? Um, yes. And other people and others. And what were the aims of CAFAC? Um, I think the aims of kafa
00:31:29 CAFAC? Um, I think the aims of kafa generally speaking were were to highlight the the uh rise of the the BMP, but also the virulent racism that was taking place uh in and around the
00:31:41 was taking place uh in and around the aisle of Shep and the grain in the north of Kent where there had been a number of attacks by by a particularly uh nasty group. Um so it there'd been some attacks on people who were um going
00:31:54 attacks on people who were um going about their their legitimate business of campaigning on the streets um on one particular area and I can't remember the the name of the town now. So we we and
00:32:05 the name of the town now. So we we and also in Kent in in Canterbury as well, I'm sorry. There have been occasions when the the uh National Front and and another organization called the International Third Position, which was
00:32:16 International Third Position, which was run by a guy called Troy Troy Southgate, which were very virulent um intern uh basically fascists. I can't dress it up. They weren't legitimate in the in the
00:32:28 They weren't legitimate in the in the normal political discourse. And and what was Kafak's response to that rising to try and galvanize community members to to go along to demonstrations maybe to actually do uh street level uh
00:32:41 to actually do uh street level uh leafleting um what you call it uh petitions that sort of stuff to try and let the local community know a of the danger that is in among in their midst but also to to
00:32:55 in among in their midst but also to to invite them to come along to things like the welling demonstration etc. So, was KAFAC uh formerly affiliated to anti-fascist action?
00:33:06 anti-fascist action? Would you say it adopted similar tactics?
00:33:09 tactics? I'd say that it it adopted a name that was renderant of AFA, but not of AFA. Uh, were you involved with AFA?
00:33:22 Uh, were you involved with AFA? I was never formerly a member of AFA. No.
00:33:25 No. Did you have any involvement with it? Not with AFA per se, although I did go on demonstrations that were organized by AFA.
00:33:32 AFA. Did you have any involvement with Red Action?
00:33:34 Action? Never.
00:33:38 Was this this really your entry into the field of anti-fascism or was that something? I think I was already involved. Um I
00:33:49 I think I was already involved. Um I think it was it was distilling more into this needs to to have more attention. Um, so it's fair to say that it was a journey that I was on. Yeah.
00:34:00 journey that I was on. Yeah. So, so you had initial involvement at school, but it continued throughout your time when you're focusing. When I was at, just to put it into context, when I was at Ruskin College and at the University of Kent, I studied
00:34:13 and at the University of Kent, I studied fascism. It wasn't something new to me. I understood what it meant. I also understood um the history of fascism in the UK and what it had done uh over the
00:34:24 the UK and what it had done uh over the historical period. So it was natural that I would want to make sure that it didn't go off the political agenda. Just because there was no part the the National Front had been defeated
00:34:35 National Front had been defeated electorally in the late '7s and the BMP had not yet reached its heights didn't mean to say fascism had gone away. And in point of fact, all the way through this um I'd say the the the ' 90s, they
00:34:48 this um I'd say the the the ' 90s, they had specialized in in terrorism. They joined up with the far um right movement in in uh Northern Ireland, which was uh typified by uh Pantani and the UDA.
00:35:00 typified by uh Pantani and the UDA. There was a a real like um a real movement that was going on that was violent. Um, obviously Charlie Sergeant and the and the likes from C18 were still operating, had not yet been sent
00:35:12 still operating, had not yet been sent down for for uh for murder. So, and the bombing hadn't happened at um Brick Lane and uh Soho and and and the rest. So, it
00:35:25 and uh Soho and and and the rest. So, it was there. It was there. Um I knew about Lomba. I knew about uh Copeland. All through this period, these were these were people who were reported on widely
00:35:36 were people who were reported on widely in search light. Um, which obviously I'd been uh reading for I reckon about a decade by the time I I was active in in in Kent.
00:35:48 in Kent. Now in 1993 you began working in the homelessness sector first in Chelenham and then later in London. Yeah.
00:35:56 Yeah. During this time you continued your involvement with the trades union movement. Yeah. And also became involved with youth against youth youth against racism in
00:36:07 against youth youth against racism in Europe. Yre. What did your um what what what level of participation did you have with Yre? Um firstly I was I was never a a member of Y. Um I was
00:36:20 of Y. Um I was interested in the wider um lessons of how we can uh organize around defeating uh racism and fascism where it raised
00:36:33 uh racism and fascism where it raised its its head. Um, I joined in activities with Y generally speaking as a steward, which I'm sure we'll discuss, but also
00:36:44 which I'm sure we'll discuss, but also on occasion as a member of a demonstration. And I think in your statement at paragraph 219, you also refer to street stores.
00:36:56 stores. Um, what were those street stores? they they would have been where we were um literature would have been sold or passed out regarding um the messages of of obviously socialism uh but also the
00:37:10 of obviously socialism uh but also the dangers of the far right. So there would have been a mixed economy of what was done on those stalls. Generally focusing as the as I know the socialist party do uh and militant labor before on having a
00:37:22 uh and militant labor before on having a um a petition that would be on something like the closure of a local hospital or something like that. Now, at paragraph 220 of your statement on page 8, you say that by the late
00:37:34 on page 8, you say that by the late 1990s, the strength of the BNP had subsided and large protests and activities by the YR and other organizations were no longer necessary. You then say that you and Dan Gilman
00:37:47 You then say that you and Dan Gilman felt it was important to continue the tradition of opposing fascism on the streets.
00:37:53 streets. If the BNP's power was subsiding, why did you feel it necessary to oppose fascism on the streets? This is this is um an interesting point. um socialist parties in general, not
00:38:04 um socialist parties in general, not just the socialist party and and uh trade unions, they have limited resources and endlessly funding uh
00:38:16 resources and endlessly funding uh campaigns against what would be smaller activities by the far right is not seen as as uh
00:38:24 as as uh effective. Um, but myself and Dan and others recognize that history tells us that when the far right is no longer successful electorally, it retrenches to
00:38:37 successful electorally, it retrenches to violence. And and you know, I I hate to say I'm right, but that's literally what they did with the bombings that Copeland um and his cohort, cuz I don't believe he act alone acted alone. Copeland and
00:38:49 he act alone acted alone. Copeland and his cohort were involved in. They were deciding and C18 they were deciding that violence pays. And if you look at the leadership of the BMP, all of them have
00:39:01 leadership of the BMP, all of them have been arrested and charged with violence at one time or another. So effectively when the when the issue of anti of anti-fascism shifts the
00:39:13 of anti of anti-fascism shifts the policy agenda for for the more for the larger more established parties there was a need for smaller sort of specialist specialist interest groups. I don't I'm not I don't want to say that's the case. What I'm saying is we
00:39:25 that's the case. What I'm saying is we recognize that there was a hole in in the analysis and the analysis is when the BMP and the political side of the parties stop operating the violence
00:39:37 parties stop operating the violence starts and we don't want that visiting on communities. So it wasn't that we saw that the parties weren't doing anything. We just knew we had to do something.
00:39:48 We just knew we had to do something. Now you explain in your statement that in approximately 1998 or 1999 you and others formed no platform. Um you say at paragraph 2.21 that it was
00:40:00 Um you say at paragraph 2.21 that it was drawn from a wide variety of leftwing organizations. From where did no platform uh draw its participants? Um it's first of all I I think we need
00:40:11 Um it's first of all I I think we need to
00:40:12 to be clear that no platform wasn't a card carrying organization. It was a bit like it was a bit like a rolling mall if you if you forgive me with my rugby analogy.
00:40:25 if you forgive me with my rugby analogy. It was people joined and left when they had time to be involved. So there were about a dozen people or so who may have been the main stays of it, but it really
00:40:36 been the main stays of it, but it really wasn't it wasn't a a um a static organization with cards and a constitution. So we drew we drew from
00:40:47 constitution. So we drew we drew from people who were interested in in being involved on one thing and one thing only and that was stopping the far right having control of communities in the
00:40:58 having control of communities in the streets
00:40:59 streets and and so but what were the sort of backgrounds of the people that would come and bind onto your your role? socialists, communists, anarchists, Labour Party members, Green Party members, trade unionists, school
00:41:12 members, trade unionists, school teachers, doctors, whoever wanted to be involved basically who focused on this. I can't tell you who the doctors are, by the way. U but a very broad a very broad That's what I'm trying to say. Thank you.
00:41:29 So this was I think in your statement you say 1998 1999. So pausing to consider that date. Can we please show um NPS 30710
00:41:40 um NPS 30710 please? That's uh that is in um Mr. Saraki's bundle at tab C2.
00:41:51 I just leave this up for a minute because you may not have seen this Mr. Batty.
00:42:02 Okay.
00:42:06 So, this is a report dated the 1st of August 2000. It's one of the first reports we have attributed to Mr. Saraki. Excuse me.
00:42:17 Excuse me. And we see here it says, "Frank Smith, a member of the Socialist Party Away Team, has helped to form a new anti-fascist organization titled No Platform. The group comprises disaffected members of
00:42:29 group comprises disaffected members of London AFA and members from the Away Team." And then if we scroll, if we look down the page to the source comment says, "The aim of the group is to provide a powerful stewarding arm for
00:42:41 provide a powerful stewarding arm for left-wing public order protests and to undertake the targeting of right-wing individuals. The group recently provided stewarding for the socialist party gay march in Leicester.
00:42:53 march in Leicester. Now first this report comes from the summer of 2000 and no platform is being described there as a new group. Would you have regarded no platform as a new group at that time or would you feel it
00:43:04 group at that time or would you feel it was established? I think
00:43:08 I think it was rel be generous and say it was relatively new by that point. I really take exception at undertaking the targeting of right-wing individuals. By the way, that is just not I don't know where that's come from.
00:43:20 where that's come from. That that's a topic we will return to on a number of occasions this morning. Um do you recognize the description of it being comprised of disaffected members of London AFA and members from the OA team?
00:43:31 the OA team? Um there's a couple of things. I think AFA had already was in the process of dissolving at that point. So I'm not sure whether they're dis disaffected or not, but there were there were people
00:43:42 not, but there were there were people who'd been involved in AFA. Um I also um I'm I'm not sure where the entity I'm aware of the phrase the away team clearly, but I don't think I can speak
00:43:55 clearly, but I don't think I can speak for myself. I was never a member of the away team because there wasn't constituted an away team. There were people who stewarded. There was a stewarding group for militant and
00:44:06 stewarding group for militant and militant labor as it evolved. The awaiting was not something really that I would recognize. I do now because I've seen it in all the paperwork, but at the time it wasn't a term it wasn't a term of art.
00:44:18 wasn't a term of art. Well, I I it may have been a term that some used me I would have said we were part of a stewarding team um because we were skilled at stewarding spaces and and demonstrations.
00:44:31 spaces and and demonstrations. You've explained that you were involved in the found that that can that document can come down now. Thank you. You've explained you were involved in the founding of the group and at paragraph 2.25 of your statement you explained
00:44:43 2.25 of your statement you explained you're involved with no platform as an organizer until approximately 2005 2006 when you moved away from London. I didn't see that. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, of course. Let me bring that up. That's on
00:44:55 that up. That's on paragraph 2.25.
00:45:01 Yeah. What did what did the role of organizer require of you? I think organizing would be acting on um
00:45:16 I think organizing would be acting on um our own intelligence that we might get regarding there was a demonstration coming up, there were elections coming up. So responding to events and and ensuring that if we were going to do
00:45:27 ensuring that if we were going to do something that we'd have people there. So do I take it from that answer that it involved deciding which events that no platform would I don't think we would have done it individually. I wouldn't have said we should do this. A couple of us would
00:45:39 should do this. A couple of us would have talked about it and say do you think it's worthwhile doing this? Uh so generally that those sorts of activities would have been leafleting or um occupying a space which I'm sure is
00:45:51 occupying a space which I'm sure is something that you will come back to later. Um so organizing in that way would have been contacting people generally by telephone because we obviously we didn't have uh smartphones
00:46:02 obviously we didn't have uh smartphones as we have now or email etc. And and that was effectively almost by an executive committee was it a small group of organizers? I think there was a group of people who trusted each other
00:46:15 group of people who trusted each other and who'd worked with each other by the time that we're talking about for a number of years. Yeah. And did the group have regular meetings or were they we met I would say we met
00:46:28 we met I would say we met semi-regularly when events were occurring. Um I don't think we sat down and and well we didn't sit down with an agenda and say this week we're going to talk about X Y and
00:46:39 week we're going to talk about X Y and Zed. it was when something was happening like like for example the Bush demonstrations or whatever you you demonstrations of which there were an awful lot during this period of time we would have met up to discuss that for
00:46:51 would have met up to discuss that for sure.
00:46:52 sure. And when you say we met up again is that is that a sort of an executive committee or a smaller organizing group or or the wider organization whoever wanted to come along to the meeting?
00:47:03 meeting? Uh in terms of others involved as organizers there's you uh Mr. Gilman at the time. I think it's fair to say Dan was
00:47:15 Dan was uh Frank Smith. Well, it's a matter of record. So, yeah, of course. And Mario, if you want to check your cipher list, the person we're calling Mario.
00:47:28 Um to an extent. Yeah. Um Alfred, I wouldn't have said he was an organizer. No. and FIA.
00:47:39 organizer. No. and FIA. No.
00:47:42 No. Uh, if we could bring up Mr. Saraki's witness statement, please, which is UCPI 35550,
00:47:52 paragraph 243.1, which is on pages 109 to 110.
00:48:13 Thank you very much. So you see at the bottom of page 109 there is an entry uh in relation to you and it says this. Joe Batty was part of the SP away team and
00:48:25 Batty was part of the SP away team and NP no platform. He was a main organizer for both. As a result, when I was approached by them to be a steward with with them, he was one of the first
00:48:36 with them, he was one of the first people that I met. Over the years that I was deployed, we became close friends in my cover role. Would you agree with Mr. Saraki's description of you as a main organizer of No Platform?
00:48:47 of No Platform? Um, I can agree with no platform. There's no way that I was a a main organizer for the Socialist Party. A and you've already commented about the away
00:48:58 you've already commented about the away team and
00:48:59 team and yeah I've made that so so take it from that just for absolute clarity you weren't you weren't a member of the SP away team let be really clear there wasn't a membership of anything called the away team there was a group of people within
00:49:11 team there was a group of people within the socialist party or militant labor who could be called upon to be stewards in demonstrations primarily because they' done a lot of demonstrations and knew how to keep a space safe
00:49:23 knew how to keep a space safe and you were part of that you and when I was available I would go. Yeah.
00:49:29 Yeah. Thank you. Uh do you recall Carlos Saraki joining the stewarding teams within the Socialist Party and no platform? I appreciate I'm not saying joining in terms of a formal membership but becoming involved in that role.
00:49:41 but becoming involved in that role. I I I wasn't there initially but very soon after he became involved I was I I met him. Yeah. And it's fair to say his
00:49:52 met him. Yeah. And it's fair to say his characterization of being a friend at that time was uh was true. Yeah. He gravitated to go here.
00:50:05 Um but again and you you've already touched on this. You you were certainly not a main organizer of the Socialist Party stewards. No.
00:50:15 Do you recall how when you first became involved with stewarding for the Socialist Party?
00:50:26 I can't recall the first time now. I'm I'm sorry about that. I'm just going to run through um some events and I'd be grateful if you could indicate whether you you were involved in any of the uh
00:50:39 you you were involved in any of the uh in in the stewarding capacity at any with the uh socialist party at any of these if I may. Yes.
00:50:46 Yes. So I I the London pole tax riots I presume predates your involvement. I I was there but I was a think a student at Oxford at the time.
00:50:57 at Oxford at the time. Um the confrontation at Waterloo in September 1992, disorder in Brick Lane in September 93. We know you were at Welling, but you
00:51:09 We know you were at Welling, but you were not there on behalf of the Socialist Party. Is that right? No, I was there uh as I say to steward a group of students who I felt I had a great deal of responsibility for.
00:51:21 great deal of responsibility for. Incidentally, that is the same any demonstration that I'm a steward. No, but I had a special responsibility for that.
00:51:28 that. Um, confrontations with the extreme right-wing in do say for example at 28th of February 1998. Um, I was there. Yeah.
00:51:41 Um, I was there. Yeah. And what was your role there? I think I was stewarded in an anti uh I was stewarded in a static demonstration on the seafront. We'd successfully achieved the aim of stopping the
00:51:53 achieved the aim of stopping the National Front, whom I already discussed had been a quite a um a presence in the in the the north of Kent, um from having a demonstration through the center of
00:52:04 a demonstration through the center of Dover. Um, at the time I think again that was an issue about people who were being kept in Dover, not the the kind of asylum situation we see now, but it was
00:52:15 asylum situation we see now, but it was kind of a a nient period where people were being moved into that area because it was a a low rent area and the the National Front saw it as a a dividing tactic. So, we stopped them marching
00:52:27 tactic. So, we stopped them marching through the center of town. That was the whole purpose. Uh they ended up having a static demonstration in a car park and there I think there was a confrontation between the demonstrators and the national front. Did were you
00:52:40 and the national front. Did were you part of that? Um, no. I remember there was um there was a a robust piece of policing uh along the seafront where
00:52:51 policing uh along the seafront where they were being a bit indiscriminate in their their attacking of members of the of the people who were counterde demonstrating. I don't recall having a
00:53:03 demonstrating. I don't recall having a um a fight with the National Front. It's possible, but I don't recall it. I only recall the police actions on that day. And then final the final event I wanted to ask about your stewarding at was a stop city demonstration in 2000 N30.
00:53:17 stop city demonstration in 2000 N30. Yeah, I was I was there and I was stewarding um a
00:53:23 um a contingent of people who we knew who wanted to go along to it uh because of the nature of the demonstration. And were you involved in any disorder on that day? Uh, can I just put it into
00:53:35 that day? Uh, can I just put it into context? I was working in the city of London at the time. So, I was not hellbent on on having a riot in the city because I would have lost my job. So, and that incidentally that enabled me to
00:53:48 and that incidentally that enabled me to get away from the trouble scene because I had a pass and the police just let me move through. In fact, I went into the bank later. So
00:53:59 would you say um your involvement with no platform changed over time?
00:54:10 I yeah I I suppose when it became clear that uh we couldn't consistently um rely on people to to be at different
00:54:22 um rely on people to to be at different activities. I think so. Yeah, I began I began to realize that perhaps we'd run our course and of course I also ran my course with London for a while cuz I had to go north to look after my mom who was
00:54:34 to go north to look after my mom who was uh seriously ill at the time has since passed.
00:54:37 passed. So that's but so that's in I think 2004. Yeah.
00:54:41 Yeah. You you leave London for for a period. Um could we look at a document um MPS 0010730
00:54:53 sir in Mr. Batty's bundle that is document B30. This is a report dated the 22nd of October and at the first paragraph of the report it says this. Jay Bassy may
00:55:05 the report it says this. Jay Bassy may now be regarded as the leading activist in no platform following Dan Gilman's reduced involvement recently due to his teaching commitments. Now, we'll return to this document a bit later in my questions, but just for now, is Mr.
00:55:18 questions, but just for now, is Mr. Saraki correct to describe you by this point as the leading activist in no platform?
00:55:25 platform? Um, no, he's not he's not correct. No, the lead this this aspect of a leadership team is a little bit overplayed. There were I I would have
00:55:36 overplayed. There were I I would have been one of the people who, as I said previously, would have brought people along to demonstrations. I don't think I was a a leader as such. There was no leadership shship structure. Um but
00:55:48 leadership shship structure. Um but there were consistent people and I had been a consistent person. So yes um and just can can I just read this uh uh section?
00:55:58 section? You you can read it. We will come back to look at it in a bit more detail later on. But
00:56:02 on. But Okay. Okay. By all means take a minute if there's something you want to look at from from the the passage that's highlighted. it. I mean, the whole the whole premise I don't know where he's got this from.
00:56:13 don't know where he's got this from. There was there may have been a discussion that Dan had left or was leaving for for reasons that have been outlined elsewhere. Um, but the idea that I mean, yes, we were frustrated
00:56:24 that I mean, yes, we were frustrated because the police quite clearly were in um spying on us and ahead of whatever activities we were likely to do. That's that's a aatic I guess at this point.
00:56:35 that's a aatic I guess at this point. But the idea that we take the organization underground like with a Bard Minhoff gang, I'm not quite sure uh where that's coming from. Um
00:56:47 where that's coming from. Um and I mean it I I would say that was a scurless uh attack on us to say that would go to right wingers and their property, but actually it's just an outright lie. Yeah. If I could just park that for a
00:56:59 Yeah. If I could just park that for a moment. I'm going to come to that in a few minutes if if we may. Um,
00:57:08 no platform is obviously the name of the group, but it's also the name of of a of of a
00:57:15 of a school of thought effectively in relation to anti-fascist activity. What does that mean to you? Um,
00:57:23 Um, because both Dan and I had studied fascism. I know Dan did when he was at university as well. no platform as a strategy was to deny the far-right
00:57:34 strategy was to deny the far-right legitimacy by allowing them to speak on public platforms in particular but also to allowing them to become part of the regular discourse.
00:57:45 regular discourse. So effectively pres preventing them from even expressing views as as another form of political party would be allowed to do. you're saying it's so abhorent, isn't it?
00:57:54 isn't it? Yeah. I mean, that that that pivots on whether or not you think fascists have a legitimate uh point of view. Um, you know,
00:58:05 know, we know where we are today and we see the lessons of not dealing with the far right. Um, and so we we kept hold of that as a principle. Yes, we would. But
00:58:16 that as a principle. Yes, we would. But but since the internet's come along, that that as a strategy is no longer tenable.
00:58:22 tenable. But for example, you wouldn't you would stop them using public spaces. You would stop them associating. Well, I mean, for example, we would stop we would try to via uh particularly by
00:58:33 we would try to via uh particularly by telephone calls close down uh gigs that were supporting um the the economy of the far right. We would occupy spaces
00:58:44 the far right. We would occupy spaces where because they knew that they couldn't um operate openly. The fascists themselves were underground. We want to talk about underground organizations. So, redirection points, which is places
00:58:56 So, redirection points, which is places where people would be told where to go to because they couldn't hold a a a p a public meeting because they were talking about conducting genocide or defending
00:59:07 about conducting genocide or defending the Third Reich or something. So, we would occupy that space legitimately because those those people being in that area was a clear and present threat to local communities. So, that's why we
00:59:18 local communities. So, that's why we would do it. So let's look at the the disruption of redirection points. Paragraph 2.23 of your statement. You describe the activities of no platform.
00:59:29 activities of no platform. Just wait for that to come up if I may. That's on page nine of the statement.
00:59:38 Thank you. Um you say this the activities of no platform involve mainly causing disruption around redistru redirection points. This is where the far-right used to organize for people to
00:59:49 far-right used to organize for people to rendevous at a certain place to be then told where they were going to go going to go for a meeting. Usually, this entailed occupying the spot and making it uncomfortable for the far right to
01:00:00 it uncomfortable for the far right to redirect their members to the real meeting place. By extension, the police would be concerned by this and so a situation was created where the police would have to clear the area where the
01:00:12 would have to clear the area where the where the redirection point was. As a result, this would disrupt the organization of the BNP National Front. So, how does that tactic of disrupting
01:00:24 So, how does that tactic of disrupting the far right redirection point work in practice? Um so for example, if people were told to um meet a person or
01:00:37 people were told to um meet a person or a group of people at a tube station entrance, uh they would then be told where to go next. This was in effect renderant of the techniques used by the
01:00:50 renderant of the techniques used by the um the clubbing scene, you know, from during raves. So they'd go to somewhere, be told to somewhere to go. um for the meeting that was actually going to happen. So by occupying the spaces it
01:01:02 happen. So by occupying the spaces it meant that people who wanted to get redirected would be put off from doing that at that time. Um in actual fact it was a real result if the police then came and cleared the area because none of us
01:01:14 cleared the area because none of us wanted to be involved in any any confrontation um physically. So I want to make that really clear. Uh the tactic was to cut that off at the at source and in point
01:01:25 that off at the at source and in point of fact by doing that um the BMP in particular was severely hampered in East London for about eight years. So they were not able to organize. It was only
01:01:36 were not able to organize. It was only when we vacated that space if I can be honest that BMP got traction in barking and dagging them which led to them getting control virtually of the council or one day away from doing so. How would
01:01:47 or one day away from doing so. How would you find out where these points would be given you mentioned the far right being underground? Um,
01:01:55 Um, sometimes it's local intelligence, sometimes it's information from within the far right. Um, information that results in us knowing and I I I'm happy to to expand um
01:02:10 and I I I'm happy to to expand um sometimes that information would come from people like Search Light. sometimes, not often, but sometimes. And that intelligence would have been from people who they had in within the far
01:02:21 people who they had in within the far right. Um, a technique which I'm sure the uh the Metropolitan Police are very pleased about because it stopped the potential murder of an MP and a police officer in
01:02:34 murder of an MP and a police officer in a later iteration of national action. And and you consider it was a successful approach to disrupting these. It was redirection. It was Yeah. And
01:02:45 redirection. It was Yeah. And when you say in that paragraph we can see that no platform no platform caused disruption around the redirection points. H how was that disruption caused?
01:02:54 caused? Generally because the far right wouldn't want us there. So generally speaking it would have been handbags at paces. There'd be a lot of
01:03:05 handbags at paces. There'd be a lot of shouting that would then probably alert BTP. they have their cameras and stuff and then the regular police had come and nobody was hurt but the uh the objective
01:03:17 nobody was hurt but the uh the objective was was achieved. So shouting and name calling possibly
01:03:21 possibly precipitating a police intervention of some sort
01:03:25 some sort generally speaking. Yeah. But did this typically involve violence or physical confrontations? Did it ever involve violence or physical confrontations? um not not to my recollection, but I'm sure I'm sure that
01:03:38 recollection, but I'm sure I'm sure that on occasion it may have happened, but but it wouldn't have been instigated by us because that's we it's of no no objective um gain to us for there to be fighting
01:03:52 um gain to us for there to be fighting in a community that we're hoping to defend. It doesn't doesn't give the right message. The right message is they shall not pass. That's what we try to do. no passeran if you like a
01:04:03 do. no passeran if you like a historically accepted um way of dealing with fascism but we weren't we weren't involved in pitch battles with them so no that's that's the picture that's trying to be painted it's not the
01:04:14 trying to be painted it's not the picture that happened
01:04:22 and how how successful in term in terms of going to redirection point and having a non-physical confrontation how successful was that as tactic.
01:04:33 how successful was that as tactic. Um well, I think it generally speaking was a successful tactic. Um the National Front and the BMP in particular um were were organizing
01:04:45 were organizing reasonably successfully in the East End of London. It's once they realized that their redirection points were being known that then the the British National Party in particular realized that they
01:04:58 Party in particular realized that they had people within their midst who were sharing information and that's like poison being taken back to the nest and so they they they turned into squables
01:05:09 so they they they turned into squables internally which turned more often than not into physical violence within the within the BMP uh and the far right. So, you know, whatever happens to them by their own hand is of no concern to us.
01:05:23 their own hand is of no concern to us. But you were effectively you were you were able to disperse without physical confrontation. It sounds like I think I think it's fair to say that's a an accurate characterization. Could we please share a document from um
01:05:36 Could we please share a document from um Mr. Saraki's bundle, sir? That is in in those bundles at C76. The uh control number is MPS305753.
01:05:46 Mr. Batty, I don't think you would have seen this document. You may not have done. So, please take a moment to read it and then I will ask.
01:06:14 So this is an intelligence report dated the 20th of April 2001 in relation to an anti-fascist counter demonstration which seemed to have taken place a few days before on the 14th of April 2001 at the
01:06:27 before on the 14th of April 2001 at the second paragraph which we can see it says this the main NP purpose was to attack the NF as They met in central London. For this purpose, spotters were deployed from 9:00 a.m. on the Saturday
01:06:38 deployed from 9:00 a.m. on the Saturday morning. Using scooters and motorbikes, they trolled the Hoben West End area, looking for potential rendevous points for the National Front. Current NP tactics are to locate the meeting point for fascists and then to attack them
01:06:51 for fascists and then to attack them before they get anywhere near the location of the march. In this way, they hope to prevent the march going ahead. Now, first of all, you're not named in this report. Um, do you recall being
01:07:03 this report. Um, do you recall being present at this event? I I was at the Burmany demonstration. Yeah. I I I can I the language that's used, if you can just take away the the the
01:07:15 the use of um incendiary words like attack. The idea is to to find out where people were were being re redirected from and then to occupy the spaces to make sure
01:07:28 then to occupy the spaces to make sure that there was no redirection to that demonstration. Look, the demonstration in Burmany, Burmany itself for a generation or more have been synonymous with the national fronts and we're
01:07:39 with the national fronts and we're really clear about that. But Burmany was changing rapidly in its demographics. And this was the National Front intending
01:07:48 intending uh to stir up racial hatred in an area which had they thought of as their natural homeland if you like the the Milwall con constituency that they have
01:07:59 Milwall con constituency that they have they had long since um had a grand foothold in which they were able to draw their their their thugs from. So the idea was that they wanted to use a demonstration in that area to assert
01:08:12 demonstration in that area to assert their their claim for rights for whites, which I think is what they were actually marching on. So I I think I take it from from what you said if you switch attack the word attack in this report for disrupt.
01:08:25 attack in this report for disrupt. Yes. You accept that as an accurate? I I I accept 100% that it was a legitimate tactic to stop the National Front from from going at source from going to a demonstration in Burmany,
01:08:38 going to a demonstration in Burmany, which incidentally at the time I I I lived in. So I was familiar with that that uh that area. But you don't accept that the the purpose of the tactic was was to physically attack the
01:08:49 was to physically attack the international. It it kind of assumes that we have like great numbers of people who can be all over London like some sort of SAS squad. That's just not the case. We may ask how how many people would
01:09:01 We may ask how how many people would have been involved. Uh I would have been surprised if there have been more than a dozen people involved.
01:09:11 And if we could then move to back to your witness statement please at paragraph 2.26 Roman five on page nine to get a sense of scale of what no
01:09:22 to get a sense of scale of what no platform was doing.
01:09:32 Sorry I may have got the page reference wrong but yes the Roman five on page 11. Yeah, of the 30 events that no platform activists were involved when, approximately 12 involved actually
01:09:45 approximately 12 involved actually undermining BNP National Front redirection points, most of our activities concentrated on stewarding demonstrations meeting and very little on physically confronting the BNP
01:09:56 on physically confronting the BNP National Front. I think that's a car. Look, I I can't I'm going to be really honest. I can't remember the exact numbers of these events. So I I I think when I wrote this, this was recalling
01:10:08 this, this was recalling um over that period. Um but I recognize that statement obviously I made it. But looking to your recollection, your recollection is 30 events. What over your entire involvement with no
01:10:20 your entire involvement with no platform?
01:10:21 platform? I I think so. Yeah. I mean don't forget I wasn't involved in every single event. I mean I it's you know it would be madness to suggest I was. So no. Yes. I mean you refer here to the 30
01:10:32 Yes. I mean you refer here to the 30 events that no platform activists were involved with suggest that's that's the total the
01:10:38 total the I look maybe you can take that a little bit with a pinch of salt because I don't know the exact number
01:10:46 I also don't know whether 12 is exactly right for the redirection point that was me thinking back 25 30 years or whatever it is
01:10:55 it is of course we only expect your you to do your best thank you Um before we leave this obviously it does say in you you have said in your statement um that your activities
01:11:06 statement um that your activities concentrated on certain activities and very little on physically confronting the BNP national front. What do you mean by physically? Look it's um
01:11:18 Look it's um it could f it could sound like confronting means being on the front foot. It was a defensive action. So, I just want to be really clear that the whole point of no platform was to allow
01:11:29 whole point of no platform was to allow spaces to be safe for people to to demonstrate themselves on on issues like I don't know library cuts and stuff like that, but but also be aware that the
01:11:40 that, but but also be aware that the National Front and the BMP at this time were virolent. They were they were people who would disrupt physically. So obviously being there to defend spaces
01:11:52 obviously being there to defend spaces does put you uh in harm's way. So there's no I can't escape that that reality. But the fact that the the the suggestion that we went seeking a fight
01:12:03 suggestion that we went seeking a fight is like nah all of us have got jobs we don't want arresting. I worked with the police all the way through this period in my day job. So obviously by um by
01:12:15 in my day job. So obviously by um by implication if I got involved in in actual physical trouble that would get me arrested that would put me in a really difficult position workwise and the same incidentally for Dan.
01:12:30 Um if you you've mentioned search light a little earlier if we could have a little look at that please. Um uh on this on the same page uh Roman 3
01:12:41 uh on this on the same page uh Roman 3 you say we disrupted the ability of the BNP national front and blood and honor fascist organizing often through tip off tip offs from search light from people within the fascist ranks who would know
01:12:52 within the fascist ranks who would know the redirection point of the BNPF. We would go to the redirection point and tell the fascist that there to move on. This would very rarely involve violence of any sort. However, it did sometimes
01:13:03 of any sort. However, it did sometimes happen, but it was infrequent. So, the type of information that would be received from search light, what would that be? Um, it's usually it would usually be
01:13:14 Um, it's usually it would usually be pinpointing areas where the fascist would be targeting. So, you know, there there is going to be a meeting in, I don't know, a a meeting in
01:13:26 don't know, a a meeting in a pub somewhere to discuss the tactics of the BMP on the National Front and we would find out about it and we' try and disrupt it by being at that. I mean, I've explained it ad nauseium already,
01:13:38 I've explained it ad nauseium already, but occupying a space because by doing that, it stopped people going to the meeting made the meeting a failure. the people in the meeting who would organize the meeting want to know why certain
01:13:50 the meeting want to know why certain amount of people hadn't turned up and then they would look internally as to to what the information was that was getting out to search light and others and search light of course would would write about it. So they they would
01:14:02 write about it. So they they would acknowledge that they were the people. They wouldn't say we told no platform. They would just report that that redirection point had been um disrupted and that the meeting had been a failure
01:14:14 and that the meeting had been a failure and that had come from information from within that organization. So aside from details of uh redirection points, would you receive information about individuals from Searchlight?
01:14:27 about individuals from Searchlight? Um,
01:14:30 Um, possibly people poss I I don't recall this, but if we did, it would be about people who are likely to cause trouble, as in people who are noted for physical violence
01:14:43 and and the idea of that would be purely defensive. So, if we did see them, we would be aware that they were likely to cause trouble. Please, could we show um MPS 30903?
01:14:56 Please, could we show um MPS 30903? services B23 in Mr. Batty's bundle.
01:15:02 This is a report dated the 20th of August 2002 and it refers to you and Frank Smith being representatives of no platform in meetings with Searchlight following Dan
01:15:13 meetings with Searchlight following Dan Gilman stepping back. Um did did you become the no platform representative to meet Search Light? Um, I can't say whether Frank was, but I I
01:15:25 I can't say whether Frank was, but I I already had um a relationship with Nick. So, Nick would have picked the phone up and and speak to me. I may have sometimes met with Nick socially
01:15:37 sometimes met with Nick socially um and during which time he would give me a full and frank account of what was going on within the far right. So it is it is true but then again Nick didn't hold back what was going on from the far
01:15:49 hold back what was going on from the far right because he wrote it in the in search light and later hope not hate journal so I was just getting the on the more
01:15:57 more the more fruity versions of what was actually happening and this this sort of paints a picture of a sort of a formal delegation but that sounds from what your evidence is
01:16:08 that sounds from what your evidence is much
01:16:08 much it was very much ad hoc um and how often would you meet search light for the sort of information sporadically. I think if I said like three times in a year that would be a
01:16:19 three times in a year that would be a lot.
01:16:22 lot. Um please could we show MPS 2010590.
01:16:27 So this is B27.
01:16:34 Uh this is a report dated the 8th of October 2002 and documents Nick Lolles from Searchlight informing you no platform of a scheduled BNP meeting. If
01:16:45 platform of a scheduled BNP meeting. If we look at the source comment it states the opportunity to organize an action against a BNP meeting is being viewed with much relish.
01:16:57 viewed with much relish. Now, that text can be read with the implication that no platform relished information and therefore also a confrontation. Is that a fair reading?
01:17:08 confrontation. Is that a fair reading? I don't know. I mean, I see the emphasis of the term much relish. Um, look, I I don't I don't know about you, but I I much relish going to watch football on a Saturday afternoon. I don't relish
01:17:20 Saturday afternoon. I don't relish having to go and be at a redirection point. So, no, I don't think that's necessarily the case. Yes, we would have been interested that we had that information if it came along. Obviously, we all have to re reorganize our
01:17:33 we all have to re reorganize our personal lives in order to be available or not be available. It depends on whether we can actually do it. So, I don't think that's right. I think if you wanted to put a spin on what we were doing, that would make you sound like
01:17:45 doing, that would make you sound like you were waiting and willing for some sort of action and that we're addicted to fighting with the fascists. I have to tell you, I've never been particularly a great fan of fighting with anybody.
01:17:56 great fan of fighting with anybody. And now moving away from search light for a moment and returning to the question of targeting individuals. Uh there's a suggestion in Mr. Saraki's reporting, which I believe was accepted by Mr. Gilman in his evidence that no
01:18:09 by Mr. Gilman in his evidence that no platform received a CD containing photographs of right-wing supporters from an AFHA archive. We don't need to show it up, but the reference for your note is MPS30537.
01:18:22 All I want to ask you is do you recall no platform receiving such a CD from a former AFA activist? Um, I recall having um
01:18:32 um seeing rather not having because I want to be really clear um seeing approximately six faces of people who were involved in the far right who were
01:18:44 were involved in the far right who were extremely violent and who wanted to um cause mayhem I think is the the correct term around um Burmany.
01:18:57 term around um Burmany. That was what that was about. So, so what was the information used for by no platform um in that in that you saw it?
01:19:06 saw it? Am I not talking too quickly? Am I? No. Sorry. I I I think that the information may have been used to produce A4 pictures that said to be
01:19:19 produce A4 pictures that said to be aware of this individual that we put or these individuals that were fly posted around by I don't know by who um around the area uh to say please be aware that
01:19:31 the area uh to say please be aware that these people are intent on causing violence in your area.
01:19:39 Um I suppose the follow-up question is but were was that used for targeting by no platform?
01:19:46 platform? First firstly again I come back to we I don't understand how how we would be targeting people when we're taking defensive action. It was to if you like gird your loins you may be attacked by
01:19:59 gird your loins you may be attacked by these individuals.
01:20:04 Please could we show um MPS207194?
01:20:10 So that's B58 in Mr. Batty's uh bundle. Now this is a chronological account of Mr. Saraki's deployment uh written after the deployment I
01:20:22 uh written after the deployment I believe. Oh at page three, the second paragraph from the head of the page there's a description of actions which Mr. Iraqi is said said to
01:20:35 actions which Mr. Iraqi is said said to have participated in 2000. At the end of the fourth line, it says this.
01:20:43 this. Actions would often be called at 24 hours noticed. These would consist of a group of five to 10 NP activists going into an area where there had been extreme right-wing activity.
01:20:54 extreme right-wing activity. They would initially fly post and sticker an area to warn of their presence and seek to target XRW leafleting canvasing teams. This was often done with specific intelligence
01:21:05 often done with specific intelligence the group received from sympathetic trade union political groups and members of the public. How accurate is that description as a of no platforms work? Um
01:21:17 Um I think
01:21:19 I think part of it is accurate in so far as we would act upon intelligence. Maybe I've just mentioned fly posting already so um that's not a surprise. stickering is a is a cheap and easy way to alert people
01:21:32 is a cheap and easy way to alert people uh to a a problem in in their community if of course they didn't already know about it through the violence that the um the far right usually uh inflict on
01:21:43 um the far right usually uh inflict on communities. Um, but the idea of us targeting leafleting and canvasing teams, no. Maybe counter leafleting, maybe being in
01:21:54 Maybe counter leafleting, maybe being in the area to alert the community to what was going on, yes, but targeting, no. That just that's a that's a a level of
01:22:05 That just that's a that's a a level of conspiracy that we never got involved in.
01:22:07 in. So, just not interested in targeting canvasing teams? No. I mean I it's just first of all if if there's canvasing teams that generally means there's an election. If
01:22:18 generally means there's an election. If there's an election that generally means that there are going to be candidates and it is just so counterproductive. if you if we were to engage in assaulting
01:22:29 you if we were to engage in assaulting candidates that would then turn out in turn into a huge political um issue that would I'm sure garner sympathy for the very people we were campaigning against.
01:22:41 very people we were campaigning against. So as a tactic it's just that it's just not right. So if we could take you to a document which I think might be some of this in in action you can comment upon it. The document I'd like please is MPS 306121.
01:22:57 So this is in Mr. Saraki's bundle at C92.
01:23:02 C92. It's an intelligence report attributed to to DC Saraki dated the 18th of June 2001. Now Mr. Batty, I don't think this is a document you've seen. So again, I'll give you a moment to to read
01:23:13 I'll give you a moment to to read through that yourself.
01:23:28 Now, this appears to be a sort of a more specific comment on the action that you've already described from the chronological summary.
01:23:39 chronological summary. Um,
01:23:42 Um, in relation to the do you recall there being an intention to target the BNP and Bethyl Green? Um,
01:23:52 Um, I don't know where to begin with this statement. I don't know where where he where he comes up with this sometimes. I mean I I I spent hours with Carlo and
01:24:03 mean I I I spent hours with Carlo and literally hours with Carlo Ner as I knew him in I am Mongaro baths in um in Islington literally talking through the political um processes as to why
01:24:17 political um processes as to why violence of this ilk is just counterproductive. So, I don't understand why he keeps revisiting the idea that somehow we were nefariously targeting people or
01:24:29 nefariously targeting people or intending to target people at their own homes or in their places where they would be most vulnerable. The legitimate process which I've said time and time again now is occupying spaces for a
01:24:42 again now is occupying spaces for a defensive purpose to enable the community to feel safe and to enable us to feel safe about going about our business. The idea that we would knock
01:24:53 business. The idea that we would knock on the door of political enemies, which incidentally is a technique that's been used by Tommy Robinson, who self-styles himself as a a politician, is is
01:25:06 himself as a a politician, is is anathema. the very idea that you would invite violence back to your own homes because if you start that on that direction of of travel then you have to
01:25:17 direction of of travel then you have to expect that somebody will come up come and knock on your own door and on your own uh family's door and put them at risk. So no, that is not a technique that we would ever use. And and I'm surprised that that Carlo even drew that
01:25:29 surprised that that Carlo even drew that construct uh that that conclusion because speaking in the steam baths, we talked about the idea of violence which he raised himself on a number of occasions specifically with this legend
01:25:42 occasions specifically with this legend that he'd been involved with the red brigades, which will come up later on, I'm quite sure. And I told him then that that was not something that the socialist movement in general in this country has ever engaged in. So no, that
01:25:56 country has ever engaged in. So no, that I mean it's just wrong. And then finally before we leave this document, um I I take it from that that you you don't agree that no platform was seeking to
01:26:08 agree that no platform was seeking to adopt the type of tactics used by AFA. Well, there's two things I can say about that. Firstly, AFA was a much much bigger organization. Um, and also they had a different
01:26:20 Um, and also they had a different agenda. Our agenda was was mainly, as I've said, to defend demonstrations and marches, but also to disrupt. I don't know what AFA's tactics were is
01:26:33 know what AFA's tactics were is referring to there. Uh, there have been some big events that I'm sure have been uh covered elsewhere, but I was never involved in it. We were never involved in it and we weren't about to replicate it.
01:26:44 it. Thank you.
01:26:52 At paragraph 5.8 of your statement, you refer to no platform disrupting an event run by the BNP, the Red, White, and Blue Festival.
01:27:00 Festival. Correct.
01:27:01 Correct. That's uh at page 22 of the statement, 5.8. And if we could bring that up, please.
01:27:32 Thank you very much. Uh, you say, "The Red, White, and Blue Festival is explicitly a neo-Nazi gathering rooted in the fascist ideology of blood and soil, a direct reference to
01:27:43 of blood and soil, a direct reference to Nazi Germany. The objective of disrupting this festival was to create an environment where attendees would no longer feel comfortable participating in such an event. The failure to
01:27:54 such an event. The failure to effectively challenge gatherings of this nature ultimately contributed to the rise of organizations like National Action, which is later prescribed in the 2010s.
01:28:03 2010s. um how would no platform disrupt pitched events like this? Um by um in effect picketing the gates and entrances where um where people would gather to go in. Look, I want to
01:28:15 would gather to go in. Look, I want to be really clear about this. The idea that that it was um a garden party on a farm is for the birds. This was a this was a a political indoctrination school.
01:28:26 was a a political indoctrination school. Uh following on very much from the uh the stuff that was going on in in Germany in the 1990s as well, which was the idea that we could bring back some sort of Hian days of um Nazification
01:28:40 sort of Hian days of um Nazification where they would basically invite families along to families by the way who were already involved in the in the uh the far right. This wasn't members of the Welshb community, uh, which is where
01:28:52 the Welshb community, uh, which is where the local community was. It was on Nick Griffin's farm. Um, I'm well aware of how it looks, but the idea was that this was to to say to people, we're watching
01:29:03 was to to say to people, we're watching you. We know what you're about, and this kind of activity won't fly in this country.
01:29:11 country. So, it wasn't to a attack any demonstration or to attack the event. I mean, we just simply had a small minibus with a handful of people in it, but it was to say, "We're here. We know what
01:29:23 was to say, "We're here. We know what you're doing. You know, don't think that you're doing this uh in secret." And you were present at that picket, weren't you? I was. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't actually get there, by the way. So, I want to be really clear about this. We were already
01:29:35 really clear about this. We were already disrupted
01:29:36 disrupted uh in what way? And the police told us to go away. Uh basically, which is fine, by the way. That's the job of the police. I understand that. Um so we didn't even test the principle that we wanted to do.
01:29:48 test the principle that we wanted to do. It's just to make it uncomfortable. But you know the the whilst the police are um are engaged in in trying to disrupt what we're doing and I can understand that they may feel that this was a
01:30:00 that they may feel that this was a legitimate action and that we were illegitimate. I don't agree with that. But that's that I can understand that they weren't looking at what the far right was doing at that time. They were looking at what we were doing.
01:30:11 looking at what we were doing. Meanwhile, there was bombings in London. Um there was uh racist attacks in London and they continue to take the same attitude. I can't I can't see how you the you know history is about you learn
01:30:23 the you know history is about you learn from history. They did it again and they were looking at the the left-wing response to national action rather than looking at national action and I' I'll repeat and that ended up in the in a in a conspiracy to murder an MP and murder
01:30:37 a conspiracy to murder an MP and murder a woman police officer in Blackpool. And this was because they were too intent on stopping the people who were raising the issue in the first place, making those people um wanted under the terrorism
01:30:49 people um wanted under the terrorism act. It's just unbelievable the mistake after mistake. They're looking in the wrong direction. And if we just look at what the um uh Metropolitan Police recorded about this
01:31:01 Metropolitan Police recorded about this event, could we please show MPS306469?
01:31:06 So this is in Mr. Saraki's bundle at C106. So again, Mr. Batty, you won't have you may not have seen this. There a few intelligent reports I've not seen of late. I've got to be honest.
01:31:21 Not a complaint, by the way. So this is a report following the Red, White, and Blue Festival in Welsh pool in 2001. So that that's the same event we're talking about, is it?
01:31:33 we're talking about, is it? Is that an earlier one? This document is undated on its face but from its metadata we understand it to be dated the 13th of August 2001.
01:31:46 dated the 13th of August 2001. Um and it describes no platforms activity that weekend in this way. No platform activists attended the Welsh pool area on the weekend of the 11th and 12th of August in an
01:31:57 the 11th and 12th of August in an attempt to disrupt attack the annual BNP summer camp. Approximately 40 activists from the London, Yorkshire, and not sections participated in proceedings. Tactics involved teams of spotters out
01:32:09 Tactics involved teams of spotters out in vehicles looking for likely targets or possible means of entry into the summer camp. All possibilities were thwarted by a heavy uniform police presence on Saturday, which prevented any large groups of NP activists
01:32:21 any large groups of NP activists entering a Welsh report. Now, that's quite a different description of what no platform intended to do to what you've just explained, isn't it? It is a
01:32:32 you've just explained, isn't it? It is a different um a different spin on it. I'm absolutely honest. Um I don't as I recall Carlo Ner wasn't there so I'm not sure where he got his information from. But what I
01:32:43 got his information from. But what I will what I will say is I still thought there was one minibus so I don't recall where all these other people were. I do know that local activists may well have been trying to find out where the main
01:32:54 been trying to find out where the main gate was. I mean the whole purpose was to was to leaflet the gate of the demonstration of the event rather. Um so and we were we were as I said successfully repelled in our uh
01:33:07 successfully repelled in our uh democratic uh rights to leaflet a an event and and and so we were sent home packing. I don't I don't recognize anything about clearly giving leaflets
01:33:18 anything about clearly giving leaflets out to any crowd because we didn't get there. So I'm not sure where that it's a fabrication basically uh based on a a modicum of truth. So when we look perhaps at the comment
01:33:29 So when we look perhaps at the comment at the foot of that page where it says there was much frustration amongst the NP activists at being unable to get amongst the BNP at this event. The heavy police presence over the weekend totally frustrated the NP plans and has caused
01:33:41 frustrated the NP plans and has caused leading lives within the organization to once again discuss tactics for future events.
01:33:45 events. Yeah. So, so the the the word get amongst or the phrase get amongst doing a lot of heavy lifting there because that's that's drawing the conclusion that we wanted to somehow be involved in a pitch battle with the BMP. Can I be
01:33:58 a pitch battle with the BMP. Can I be really clear about this? The BMP at the time were given security spike combat 18. Do you really think a handful of people from London were going to take a pitch battle to the BMP on their own
01:34:10 pitch battle to the BMP on their own ground with an unknown an unknown amount of people from from combat 18 there in security? It's just for the birds. This is one of those things where maybe if you want to report something that
01:34:22 you want to report something that legitimizes your your wages and your overtime, this is one of those reports. So it's
01:34:29 So it's a modicum of truth twisted. So it's slightly early. I I about to start a new area. Um I don't know whether you want to rise for the morning
01:34:41 whether you want to rise for the morning break now or or you like me to keep going for another 10 minutes. No, no, it's certainly sensible if you're switching topics rather than earlier rather than later. We have a break now for 15 minutes
01:34:53 We have a break now for 15 minutes unless you want longer. But um I'm fine. I'm I'm in the flow. I'm fine. You're doing fine so far.
01:52:38 Mr. Bounty, before we leave the um red, white and blue event, you you refer to no platforms plans being quite frustrated.
01:52:49 frustrated. Was it do you recall whether there was any damage to property done at that event? No, I don't. As far as I'm aware, you
01:53:01 No, I don't. As far as I'm aware, you wasn't.
01:53:02 wasn't. No, it it certainly wasn't by people that I was with. So, no is the answer to that.
01:53:10 that. Thank you. I'd like to look at the first time that you met Carlo Saraki. The first reports we have from Mr. Iraqi where you're mentioned date from December 2000 and
01:53:23 mentioned date from December 2000 and your full name first appears in January 2001.
01:53:27 2001. Can you recall when you first met Mr. Saraki?
01:53:32 Saraki? Um,
01:53:37 I can't recall the very first time I met uh Carlo, but within a day or two of meeting him, I I do
01:53:48 a day or two of meeting him, I I do recall going to his house on the narrow way or his flat on the narrow way in, excuse me, Hackne. um because he was a he professed to be a
01:54:02 um because he was a he professed to be a cyclist and we bonded over cycling um because I I was very I still remain a a keen cycling fan. Um so I think he found something um that we were both
01:54:15 something um that we were both interested in. He had a bike on um a turbo uh turbo trainer. Um that was it. That's all I can recall. and the fact that he made his own grapper as well
01:54:26 that he made his own grapper as well which he gave us some of straight away. Yeah. So
01:54:30 Yeah. So um if we if we have a look at the chronological account of Mr. Saraki's deployment that's MPS207194.
01:54:38 So that's B58 and at page one please
01:54:46 if we could enlarge the second paragraph on page one. Thank you. So this document appears to record the circumstances of DC Saraki's first contact with you
01:54:59 of DC Saraki's first contact with you and your no platform colleagues. It says the CI Kraggy Islands initial contact with the extreme left-wing groups came via the SWP and the Anti-Nazi League. He resided in Hackne,
01:55:12 Anti-Nazi League. He resided in Hackne, which previous intelligence had indicated would be a good place to start his operation from. His first demonstration was the rights for asylum seekers march held in central London in June 2000. Whilst on this march he made
01:55:24 June 2000. Whilst on this march he made contact with activists from the socialist party. Certain SP activists Dan Gilman, Frank Smith, Joe Batty and Alfred were forming a united group in conjunction with disaffected a activists
01:55:37 conjunction with disaffected a activists Mario, Steve Hedley and Privacy. Um, do you were you on that um asylum seekers march? Um, to be honest, I can't tell you. Uh,
01:55:49 Um, to be honest, I can't tell you. Uh, it's as simple as that.
01:55:56 How soon after meeting Mr. Saraki? When you did meet him, did he become involved with the act the work of No Platform?
01:56:06 Platform? I would say quite quickly. Uh, relatively quickly. But I mean it's been noted elsewhere. I mean the most of the work that we were engaged in was stewarding. So Carlo was um a big lump
01:56:19 stewarding. So Carlo was um a big lump to put it politely at the time. I'm sure he's not now but he was at the time. So having a steward on a demonstration who is you know heavy and heavily set was is an asset because you don't want the
01:56:31 an asset because you don't want the group to be attacked. So it's another barrier between us and trouble. Please could we show now um MPS 307391
01:56:43 Please could we show now um MPS 307391 sir that's B13 in your bundle. Now this is a report dated the 26th of November 2001. So a little over a year
01:56:55 November 2001. So a little over a year after his first reporting on the group and the report sets out the then current structure of no platform and details responsibilities within the group in the first paragraph on page
01:57:08 group in the first paragraph on page one.
01:57:10 one. We can see that you're listed as being present at the meeting. Further down the page at the third paragraph
01:57:17 paragraph we can see a Carlo listed as a volunteer to assist with communications. and he's one of I think 10 named individuals who are given an assigned
01:57:28 individuals who are given an assigned role
01:57:31 role over at page two under the handler's comment to the fourth paragraph of the page
01:57:40 says a note Carlo is possible possibly identical with Carlo Ner associate of Chris Newbie of the SWP and Hackne fightback
01:57:49 and for completeness you confirm in your statement at paragraph 9.1 which we don't need to go to that the Carlo listed there as being involved with communications is Carlos Saraki
01:58:01 communications is Carlos Saraki what did Mr. Saraki's role in communications involve um kind of th this is a really good example of rampant inaccuracies.
01:58:14 example of rampant inaccuracies. First of all, I don't drive, so I'm not sure where the transport issue comes from. Um I think um the guy we know as Alfred was a uh technical wizard with um
01:58:29 Alfred was a uh technical wizard with um computers and stuff and he would have been responsible for communications. So I'm not sure where any of this comes from because it's not actually true.
01:58:40 from because it's not actually true. It's wrong. I wouldn't say it's not true that we were there because we were clearly there. So, so there there was there no are you saying that there was no formal divvying up of the roles between the members or
01:58:51 up of the roles between the members or or or that it's inaccurate is what I would say and I would also say that this was what would you like what would you like to do as opposed to you are now common for
01:59:03 as opposed to you are now common for transport etc because as I say it was it was more of a movable feast than that. If we could um bring up paragraph 9.2 two of your statement page 29
01:59:17 two of your statement page 29 you say that Mr. Saraki was also responsible for transportation presumably partially because you're saying that you you you couldn't be. Carlo was responsible for transport
01:59:28 Carlo was responsible for transport because Carlo was the only person who had a vehicle which I'm led to understand is the raising debt for a number of these people being accepted easily within the within the leftwing
01:59:39 easily within the within the leftwing groups because none of us had cars or very few of us had cars or vehicles. But Mr. Saraki did and did he he use that for his work with no platform? I believe so. Yeah. I mean, on more than
01:59:50 believe so. Yeah. I mean, on more than one occasion, I'm aware that he did. If we um you also say at paragraph 9.5 of your witness statement on page 30
02:00:01 of your witness statement on page 30 uh that in relation to this meeting, Mr. Saraki actively participated in discussions and influenced the direction of no plat that no platform took at the time.
02:00:13 time. Can you recall any particular matters where Mr. Iraqi directly influence no platform's direction or actions. Um not specifically but then I can't
02:00:25 Um not specifically but then I can't tell you with all honesty how I uh impacted on the direction. It was it was conversations and I guess through osmosis the decision would be made. So
02:00:37 osmosis the decision would be made. So if Carlo was parted to those uh discussions he definitely influenced the direction that we went. That's all I can say.
02:00:45 say. Um and you say here that it was typical of um
02:00:52 of um his involvement at the time. So do by that do you mean at the time of this report or throughout his involvement with no platform? Um I have I have um sketchy
02:01:07 Um I have I have um sketchy um
02:01:09 um memories of Carlo ever being on any actual activity. I'm sure he was, but I have very few um memories of that. I do know that he
02:01:20 um memories of that. I do know that he went he attended meetings. He's very good at attending meetings, which obviously in hindsight was was what he was trying to do. So I I that's all I can say on that issue really. So he would attend meetings regularly
02:01:32 So he would attend meetings regularly and participate in the meetings that he attended.
02:01:35 attended. Yeah, he may take part in in some events. I'm sure he did, but he wasn't on the vast majority of events as far as I recall.
02:01:47 Um, in Mr. Saraki's statement at paragraph 66.1, which is page 38, UCPI
02:01:56 UCPI 50LE50.
02:02:03 He says, "The groups and individuals I was involved um in were regularly involved in criminality. For example, ABH, GBH,
02:02:14 criminality. For example, ABH, GBH, fraud in relation to claiming benefits, criminal damage in relation to the groups with which you were involved and that were reported on by Mrs. Iraqi.
02:02:25 that were reported on by Mrs. Iraqi. Do you consider this statement to be accurate?" No, I I can't tell you whether people were involved in fraud with benefits. I have no knowledge of that. But what I can say is um ABHGBH.
02:02:38 can say is um ABHGBH. No. Um as I've said before um if there was ever um any conflration at a uh redirection point, we wouldn't have
02:02:51 redirection point, we wouldn't have initiated it. So I want to be really clear about that. But also we wouldn't have stood by and been attacked. So I'm not ashamed of what we did, but I'm not
02:03:03 not ashamed of what we did, but I'm not saying that we ever promoted violence cuz we didn't. So to be involved in a ABH and GBH, that would have been No, I'm sorry that that wasn't the whole that no just no.
02:03:15 that no just no. And so there were take it from that that there were no no members of the group were charged with those offenses at any time. I can't tell you if in their
02:03:26 time. I can't tell you if in their private life they were involved in violence, but on activities I don't I just do not recognize that safe uh that statement. Have you ever been involved with groups
02:03:38 Have you ever been involved with groups other than no platform uh where this type of conduct has taken place? No.
02:03:47 No. As a general point, would you agree that over the years there have been instances where members of the extreme left-wing have been involved with and convicted in relation to serious criminality?
02:03:58 relation to serious criminality? I am aware that members of the left wing um particularly red action were were were done for criminality. Yes.
02:04:10 Um, please could we return to MPS 2010730
02:04:15 2010730 which is B30.
02:04:20 We looked at this a little earlier
02:04:24 and the first paragraph it says this. Batty may now be regarded as the leading activist in a platform following Dan Gilman's reduced involvement recently due to his teaching commitments. Frustrated by the lack of successful
02:04:35 Frustrated by the lack of successful activity within the London group, which he sees is compromised by police intelligence and public order policing methods, Batty hopes to take it underground to avoid police attention.
02:04:46 underground to avoid police attention. Thus, better internal security, particularly featuring a disciplined use of phones, ought to be accompanied by a change of tactics on the streets, where a visible presence at demonstrations susceptible to police disruption, should
02:04:58 susceptible to police disruption, should be replaced by attacks on individual right-wingers and their property. the opportunities for the police to frustrate such action would be less and the chances of identifying informants would be greater.
02:05:10 would be greater. And then further down the page, a source comment
02:05:14 comment says Batty is aware that London NP needs a successful public action to attract numbers to the group, but is very much taken by the notion of a small committed Carter carrying out raids in the living
02:05:26 Carter carrying out raids in the living rooms of the far right. He's aware that the state might well regard such acts as terrorism and react accordingly, but the recent rise in popularity and street presence of the XRW might, he believes,
02:05:37 presence of the XRW might, he believes, leave antfascists with no other option. Now, you have already touched upon this, but to be absolutely clear, is the report correct that you wanted, it was you that wanted to take the group
02:05:49 you that wanted to take the group underground and wanted to attack members of the extreme rightwing at their homes? Um, look, it I can't prove a negative, but what I will say to you is I'm really clear and
02:06:02 will say to you is I'm really clear and I've always been really clear that that sort of activity that has been alleged there leads to a spiral of conflict that brings trouble to your own door. It is
02:06:14 brings trouble to your own door. It is clearly not something that I would be involved with. That those words are not my words. Um, I find it offensive actually. I I literally spent I know
02:06:26 actually. I I literally spent I know I've said this before, I spent hours talking to Carlo in pubs, in bars, in the Iron uh baths, literally
02:06:38 the Iron uh baths, literally talking about what is legitimate and what is illegitimate. It's quite clear that that's illegitimate. It's quite clear that I would not want to be victim to any terrorism act. It's just a
02:06:50 to any terrorism act. It's just a nonsense. It looks like he's justifying his his his placement uh within within no platform and within the left wing in general. I really don't recognize that
02:07:02 general. I really don't recognize that statement and I take offense at it being written about me. Now, in your statement, you do explain that it it effectively goes against a long-standing long long-standing understanding that to
02:07:15 long long-standing understanding that to take the fight to to the the homes of the extreme rightwing and presumably vice versa would be um a way to escalate in the way
02:07:26 would be um a way to escalate in the way in a way that is unacceptable. Um
02:07:30 Um is that something that you understood to be mutually understood between both wings? I I un look I understand that
02:07:40 that it has been something which has been understood since the 43 and the 62 groups that if you if you engage in that
02:07:51 groups that if you if you engage in that there those are other um iterations of of um left-wing uh activist groups in the 60s. Uh if you engage in those activities,
02:08:03 activities, then you bring it to your own door and that makes your own family quote unquote combatant to a fair game. This was the this is the tactic that the far right sometimes use when they've not been
02:08:16 sometimes use when they've not been disciplined in how to do action. This is what Steven Lennon does, Steven Yak Lenon, doorsteping pe doors stopping people to terrorize them and that we just don't do that.
02:08:28 just don't do that. Now, in your statement of paragraph 7.1 in relation to this intelligence report, you say the claim in the report is a complete fabrication and is a misrepresentation of a conversation that
02:08:39 misrepresentation of a conversation that took place at the Royal Oak Pub in Burough.
02:08:42 Burough. Yeah.
02:08:43 Yeah. Um, so I take it from that that someone did raise this idea at the meeting. Yeah. And they were shut down and and that's shut down by you. Yeah. Well, not just by me, by other
02:08:54 Yeah. Well, not just by me, by other activist. I mean, it's just it's just a nonsense and we wouldn't do it. So, it might be a a um what's the word? An excited remark by somebody else who was there who'd already had a drink or two.
02:09:07 there who'd already had a drink or two. It wasn't something we would ever have acted upon and we didn't. And again, for clarity, that we can we take it that it wasn't Carlos Iraqi who' made that suggestion.
02:09:20 Do you know I I can't comment on that? I don't know.
02:09:27 But you say in your statement that this person was immediately and emphatically told that's not how you operate. Correct. Just as emphatically as I'm saying it now, actually. Yeah. Would Carlos Saraki have been there for that explanation?
02:09:39 there for that explanation? I'm pretty sure he was. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was. Carlo was often there when there was a drink to be had. I'd now like to look at some particular events which are reported on by Mistress
02:09:51 events which are reported on by Mistress Iraqi. And the first is the disorder at the Cocktavvern in December 2000. And this was an incident where members of the National Front sought to stage a
02:10:03 of the National Front sought to stage a static demonstration outside a pub with links to the Irish community and supporters of the left wing. Is that right?
02:10:10 right? Correct.
02:10:12 Correct. Can you provide us with your recollection of that event? Yeah. Um,
02:10:18 Yeah. Um, in the weeks running up to the demonstration, there had been meetings that had been held at the Cocktava by family support groups from from different Irish families uh, regarding
02:10:29 different Irish families uh, regarding stuff that had gone on in Ireland. I have no idea what the context was. What I do know is that that pub is um, a pub that's used by the leftwing and and the Irish community. Um, I myself have been
02:10:41 Irish community. Um, I myself have been there. It was at the time a place where you could go and watch the Celtic games, stuff like that. Um the the National Front had reported and
02:10:52 the the National Front had reported and it had been in the newspaper that uh a family support group had had a meeting there and so the National Front decided that they would have a demonstration outside of the meeting. Um given the
02:11:05 outside of the meeting. Um given the nature of the subject matter, this was likely to be red meat to u the more virulent members of the far right, combat 18 and and that ilk, um who have
02:11:17 combat 18 and and that ilk, um who have been involved in huge violence, uh significant violence, loss of life and serious wounding. We knew that they would ga gather there. Therefore, um
02:11:29 would ga gather there. Therefore, um different groups within the community, maybe the Y, I can't recall now, um the Socialist Party, the um ANL, um which is of course the SWP, one of the SWP
02:11:42 of course the SWP, one of the SWP organizations called a public demonstration to counter the the meeting that was um held on some um right in the building directly opposite the pub.
02:11:56 And how was it that that demonstration descended into disorder and violence? Um,
02:12:03 Um, I think first and foremost, I'm not sure it actually dissembled into um
02:12:11 um fell into violence. I think it fell into chaos. Um, and initially there had been a a um a typical barrier put between the um
02:12:24 typical barrier put between the um anti-fascists, anti-racists um who were on the directly in front of the pub so-called defending the space if you will.
02:12:33 you will. Sorry. And you a phys a physical barrier.
02:12:36 barrier. Yeah. There was there were metal um like when they have the marathon those metal metal side. Yeah. that literally between the two sets of of um
02:12:48 between the two sets of of um demonstrators. There may have been a slight sterile strip and then another group, another um set of barriers and then the demonstrators were behind being
02:12:59 then the demonstrators were behind being spoken to by some farright demigog. I don't actually know who it was. I I I I don't recall. Um it was quite a um vocal
02:13:12 don't recall. Um it was quite a um vocal affair. um the ANL and the the Socialist Party had managed to get a a a fair amount of people out. So the National Front would have been frustrated in
02:13:23 Front would have been frustrated in being heard. Um
02:13:27 Um I think it's fair to say that um myself and and others and I can't say who they were now did feel that it was illegitimate for the National Front to
02:13:39 illegitimate for the National Front to be there because they were once again um sewing or trying to sew um kind of a lack of cohesion in the
02:13:51 kind of a lack of cohesion in the community. They're trying to drive a an axe through uh unity. That's what they were trying to do. So, um we had noticed, and I'm sure you'll come to
02:14:02 noticed, and I'm sure you'll come to this, so I may as well run while I'm in the flow. Um we had noticed that the police and the national front were all peering at at the pub and that the back
02:14:13 peering at at the pub and that the back of the demonstration that they had or they was actually empty. There was no nothing there. So a handful maybe as many as 10 or 12
02:14:25 many as 10 or 12 um coalesed on Evershot Street and walk down towards the rear of the National Front position. Our intention is really clear. It wasn't premeditated. We didn't anticipate being
02:14:38 premeditated. We didn't anticipate being in this position. We walked down and the idea was to create a as loud a noise as possible
02:14:46 possible to distract the police so that they would turn round and then be a bit discombobulated and in the process of doing that end the demonstration by the National Front. There was no way that
02:15:00 National Front. There was no way that as many as between eight and 12 people, I can't remember the numbers now, were going to attack the National Front for the precise reason that a that's not what we do and b there would have been
02:15:13 what we do and b there would have been combat a team members there as well. And they were. So we didn't go to do that. We went to if you like throw a verbal firecracker so that the police would say enough's enough now guys. Let's let's
02:15:25 enough's enough now guys. Let's let's wind it up. You you described that in your statement as creating the intention to create confusion and force the police to disperse the gathering. Yeah. The gathering, not for the police
02:15:36 Yeah. The gathering, not for the police to disperse. No, sorry. Yes. And is that what happened?
02:15:40 happened? Um, it kind of did happen that way. Um, I know that they arrested a number of people.
02:15:47 people. Um, none of whom were charged by the way or one was, but they they were released and they weren't charged in court. They they overturned the the case and got a payout by the Metropolitan Police for
02:15:59 payout by the Metropolitan Police for wrongful arrest. But but you don't recall there being violence at that incident. Um
02:16:05 Um no, I mean I I just to show the lack of lack of prep preparation if you like for violence. I was wearing a bright orange boating coat. I mean, if I was going to
02:16:17 boating coat. I mean, if I was going to go to cause physical violence, I wouldn't walk through a crowd and attack people wearing a bright orange coat unless I was somehow suicidal.
02:16:30 Please, could we go now to uh MPS 304904?
02:16:37 This is a report. So, this is uh document B1 in your bundle and this is a report using information provided by Mr. Saraki
02:16:47 Saraki and it reads Dan Gilman and Joe SNU so surname unknown lead members of the anti-fascist group no platform have expressed satisfaction at the recent attack by their group on the right-wing
02:16:58 attack by their group on the right-wing demonstration outside the public house in Houston despite a number of no platform members being arrested at the event it is viewed as a success as they were able to attack fascists and disrupt the protest. So I
02:17:11 fascists and disrupt the protest. So I suppose the first question is the characterization of there being an attack on the fascists you would disagree with. Is that right? I I mean I I don't I wouldn't say it was an attack. I would say it was
02:17:24 an attack. I would say it was an intervention designed to disrupt that demonstration but not to physically confront individuals onetoone on the
02:17:35 confront individuals onetoone on the streets in street pitch battle violence. That wasn't the point. The point was to disrupt the event so the police would call it off precisely because it was a a meeting or an event that was designed to
02:17:50 meeting or an event that was designed to frighten and intimidate community members and we didn't think it was legitimate. I still don't think it's legitimate. And you've mentioned that there were arrests and people were dearrested or
02:18:02 arrests and people were dearrested or charged and later not Yeah. um proceeded with um that did that involve members and no platform. Yeah, there was there's se I mean I
02:18:13 Yeah, there was there's se I mean I can't you see I I don't want to fall into the trap of saying members. You mean people who apologies but every time I not being funny it's just that words do do matter. We were we were we were
02:18:26 do do matter. We were we were we were there. Several people who were in our cohort if you like were arrested and um a number of them who I think were
02:18:37 um a number of them who I think were taken to Chalk Farm um somewhere in that area slightly north of of um Camden which this is in the burough of. A
02:18:48 which this is in the burough of. A number of those people had uh were arrested, taken there, and had their details later disclosed to the Flag newspaper, which was a far-right journal, and that information could only
02:19:01 journal, and that information could only have come from within that police station. So, we have reason to, you know, we are really concerned that that that sort of activity was happening. Do you recall anybody either far right
02:19:13 Do you recall anybody either far right or from from the left wing uh sustaining injury on that day?
02:19:22 No, but I do recall I do recall police officers drawing telescopic bats and threatening threatening people with
02:19:34 and threatening threatening people with them.
02:19:34 them. And do you recall there being any damage to property that day? No.
02:19:46 You say at paragraph 4.2 um page 16, we don't need to go there. Uh that the report is correct when it says that you that no platform was satisfied with the disruption of the
02:19:58 satisfied with the disruption of the fire rights actions. Why was that? Yeah, I mean it it the the net result was that the demonstration was terminated, which was which was a stated stated
02:20:10 which was which was a stated stated goal. That actually, as far as we're concerned, allowed the community to know that there were enough people in the area who didn't want them to be divided and that the people who wanted to divide
02:20:21 and that the people who wanted to divide them have been moved off the streets and out of the area. Returning to the report which is the the report of B1 MPS304904
02:20:32 the second paragraph it says Gilman and Joe Snnew also feel it sent out a positive message to AFA and ex AFA members who may be considering joining the group. Um is
02:20:44 considering joining the group. Um is that right?
02:20:47 Um
02:20:51 I don't know really. I think obviously if the demonstration had been curtailed then if you like if you want to see it as a win then it's a win but I don't
02:21:02 as a win then it's a win but I don't think it's a propaganda win. I don't think that's what we're necessarily about if I'm honest which I am. Would there have been anything about this particular action that would have attracted members of
02:21:13 attracted members of Well, it was a it was a um it was a notable event. Let's put it that way.
02:21:22 Do you remember Carlos Iraqi being at this?
02:21:25 this? No.
02:21:26 No. And do you remember discussing the incident with him after the event?
02:21:33 Not per se, but I'm quite sure he would have raised it when we were in the steam rooms or when we were uh having a pint somewhere. Uh now in an oper in an account that he's provided subsequently, he he
02:21:45 he's provided subsequently, he he suggests he was present. Um, when you say you don't recall him being there, are you saying he wasn't there or that you don't recall him being there? I don't recall him being there and and
02:21:56 I don't recall him being there and and actually I don't think he was there. If he was there, he was there, excuse me, in an official police capacity because I don't recall him being there.
02:22:09 I'd like to show you some documents which refer to no platform's involvement in countering the BNP's efforts to canvas during council elections in Beckton in March 2001. Could we please bring up MPS30529?
02:22:23 Sir, this is in Mr. Saraki's bundle C62.
02:22:29 Again, this is a document you may not have seen before. So, I'll give you a moment to read it before I ask my questions.
02:22:46 Uh yeah, thank you. So this obviously says this, the no platform in conjunction with the newer monitoring project NMP is planning to call out as many activists as possible for the Beckton election on Thursday the
02:22:57 for the Beckton election on Thursday the 29th of March 2001. The intention is to be present for the evening count to disrupt proceedings for the British National Party candidate. Activists are intending to single out the BNP security
02:23:08 intending to single out the BNP security team for attack. Then at source comment, the evening of the count is viewed as an ideal opportunity to attack the BNP as they will be in a fixed location. A successful action would also generate
02:23:19 successful action would also generate media coverage which would raise the profile of No Platform. Now, do do you remember no platform wanting a large presence to disrupt this election count?
02:23:30 presence to disrupt this election count? Um,
02:23:33 Um, I I I don't recall that um interpretation of events. I'm sure there was a call out for people to um make
02:23:44 was a call out for people to um make their displeasure known at the BMP standing in that election. I'm quite clear that that would be a legitimate um action. However, the rest of it is is
02:23:57 action. However, the rest of it is is just
02:23:59 just I I don't know how to characterize it other than saying that somebody is making a a really nice narrative that just didn't happen and wouldn't happen. I mean, I've explained already pretty
02:24:11 I mean, I've explained already pretty much adnauseium that we're not against the electoral system. were against the far right and we wouldn't attack anybody standing in an election. Um there was
02:24:23 standing in an election. Um there was instances of of the far right attacking canvases embarking and dagging them and it was really not a good look. It doesn't doesn't help the legitimate candidates who are standing to have
02:24:35 candidates who are standing to have people who often are supporting them beating people up in front of the count. It just doesn't make sense. It's not what we would do. And in relation to the point that you've made about barking and
02:24:47 point that you've made about barking and dagenham canvases, was that something that no platform was in involved with? Um no. Um by that time that was hope not hate and I was to some extent involved with hope not
02:24:58 to some extent involved with hope not hate at the time. So going back to this report effectively I think you said so you would you agree that there may have been a call out for the activists. There could well have been but mainly
02:25:09 There could well have been but mainly from new and monitoring projects who had much greater reach within that community. But you take particular exception with the suggestion that it was to attack. I don't recognize it. I mean, and I know we've we, you know, these these words
02:25:21 we've we, you know, these these words attack are loaded to make us sound like we're out for physical confrontation. At the end of the day, we were about ensuring that democracy takes place.
02:25:39 Um, can we
02:25:54 I'd like to ask you about uh no platforms involvement in the Bradford riots. Um first of all, were you present in Bradford on 7th of July 2001?
02:26:09 I have a recollection. I got to be honest with you. I don't have a deep recollection. Okay. Well, we'll perceive my questions and if you can't help me then
02:26:20 and if you can't help me then I'm not being evasive. I just understand that don't um e regardless of whether you were present or not, do you recall being involved with any planning in relation to no platforms involvement in Bradford
02:26:32 to no platforms involvement in Bradford on that day?
02:26:38 No, I do recall this is and this is please take this as a misty memory. Um I do recall that there were people who
02:26:51 were people who tried to
02:26:53 tried to operate as no platform in that area. Um, I don't know. I can't recall who they were now, but I do recall that they may have asked for us to come up to support
02:27:05 have asked for us to come up to support them.
02:27:07 them. That would only be in the ways that I've already described a number of occasions, which would have gone to support them in whatever activity that was legitimate they were engaged in.
02:27:19 they were engaged in. Now, we we've touched upon the the the lack of a formal membership with NA platform. You've referred to there being other groups effectively bearing the name of no
02:27:30 effectively bearing the name of no platform. Were those linked groups or were they people with similar ideology? I think there was a um
02:27:39 I wouldn't say they were linked. I would say they were very much operating themselves but we had similar similar not necessarily the same
02:27:50 similar not necessarily the same objectives. And of course the con the constitution physically of those groups will be different. So they may be more anarchist, more socialist. I don't I can't say for definite. So the complexion of what they look like would
02:28:02 complexion of what they look like would have been different. We didn't own the name no platform. There was no membership of no platform. It was a as as you said at the very beginning uh an ideological standpoint that you know
02:28:15 ideological standpoint that you know it's fascism is not a legitimate political position. So if we could please show MPS 306264. So this is in the Mr. Saraki's bundle at
02:28:27 So this is in the Mr. Saraki's bundle at C99.
02:28:30 C99. This is a report about the disorder dated the 9th of July 2001. Now to be clear, you're not named in this report. But if we look the third line of the report refers to the involvement of 13
02:28:41 report refers to the involvement of 13 members of no platform, 10 of which were from the London branch. I I take it that you can't recall now whether you were one of those 10.
02:28:52 whether you were one of those 10. Uh no. And we we weren't a branch. I I really need to be really clear about this. We weren't a federation. We weren't a branch. They were freestanding organizations of individuals.
02:29:05 organizations of individuals. I'm grateful. If we could just now look at one more document that that that will look further into that point, please. MS2029169.
02:29:13 Sir, this is Mr. Iraqis bundle C221.
02:29:20 This is a briefing note on no platform.
02:29:25 And if we look over leaf at page two,
02:29:32 the second paragraph from the foot of the page
02:29:38 where it says the number of activists actually arrested and convicted by the police for NP activity has been kept relatively low. Only five have been convicted of offenses connected to NP
02:29:49 convicted of offenses connected to NP and these were all for activity at Pudsy which I understand is is another way of describing the Bradford riots because they took place at Pudsy.
02:30:00 they took place at Pudsy. Um
02:30:03 Um I take do were any of those five people arrested involved with the London contingent? Not that I'm aware of. No. So given what you've said about there not be not being
02:30:14 you've said about there not be not being a sort of a federation or or a franchise of no platform, no formal connection, how
02:30:25 is it is it simply wrong to assume that the actions of one branch uh can be taken as part of the wider network as far as you're concerned. They're yours your words, but I no
02:30:37 They're yours your words, but I no absolutely agree with you. We we there was no first of all there's it kind this kind of attributes a national sort of organization.
02:30:48 organization. It isn't a national organization. the name no platform was probably quite a useful
02:30:56 a useful name to use and I know that some of the people who were involved in different parts of the country were known to people in London obviously because they
02:31:07 people in London obviously because they would have had some sort of contact with them at some point and thought well they're still doing activity let's let's kind of use that name because that name signifies that we don't tolerate fascism
02:31:19 signifies that we don't tolerate fascism so I'm I as much as I can say yes people may have gone from from London to that demonstration because they were if you
02:31:30 demonstration because they were if you like comrades in in the loosest form they were people who thought you might we might be able to call on you to help in our hour of need for example but we weren't an organization we didn't have
02:31:42 weren't an organization we didn't have organizational dis uh discipline like that we wouldn't have been a threeline whip to all go up to Pudsy and I thought puds in leads isn't I don't know. Is it near Bradford? I don't know. I think it's between the two.
02:31:55 I think it's between the two. Um, so it's it's almost a continuation of your description of the of the rugby mall, isn't it? The the London people might have got involved bind on for this.
02:32:04 this. Yeah.
02:32:05 Yeah. Um, can I ask you please about a trip to Lan and Genanoa very briefly? Can we show you please MPS 052
02:32:16 052 373? So this is B9 in the bundle.
02:32:28 So I say that again. Um 052 373. Thank you very much. And at page two, the first paragraph,
02:32:38 it refers to you and Dan Gilman inviting Mr. Saraki to join you in Lan, Belgium for a Socialist Party event. And then in the second paragraph,
02:32:57 it says that it was your plan to drive a minibus to Genanoa to join protests against the G8 summit.
02:33:10 And in relation to Genanoa, the note goes on at the end of the fifth line of that second paragraph. They are equally determined that the purpose of their trip is to observe events from a safe
02:33:22 trip is to observe events from a safe distance and have no intention of getting involved wittingly in violent street disorder. The group's aim, therefore, is that the trip will be a predominantly social one more than anything else to say we were there.
02:33:35 anything else to say we were there. Now, how accurate is the note of those points? Um
02:33:42 I was I went to uh the school in Lurvin is a beautiful uh Belgian city. Um as I really don't believe I went to uh
02:33:55 as I really don't believe I went to uh Genanoa and there's a reason why I was working in in homelessness at the time. Uh it was enough to get time off to go to Lurvin. I can't believe I just at
02:34:07 to Lurvin. I can't believe I just at whim phoned home and said, "By the way, I'm going to spend another week in Italy." So, I I I don't recognize that. Having said that, um people may have
02:34:20 Having said that, um people may have gone on from Lurvin to Genanoa just to be part of that scene. I don't know. I wasn't there. Okay.
02:34:30 Okay. Um, if we could now return to that chronological summary of deployment, uh, MPS 207194, that's B58 in the bundle. And if we
02:34:43 that's B58 in the bundle. And if we could pull up page four, that document, sixth paragraph, headed August September 2001.
02:34:56 Upon his return to the UK, Kraggy Island continued to provide intargeting and planned actions by NP. Most well-known action was the Slade
02:35:07 Most well-known action was the Slade Green attack on BNP canvases by an NP team consisting of CI's close associates in the group. CI did not attend that day, therefore was unable to disrupt the action. Throughout his deployment, he
02:35:18 action. Throughout his deployment, he provided intel which was used to disrupt actions of this kind. So, first it doesn't I haven't I haven't been able to locate a report of this incident and I'm sure if someone has
02:35:30 incident and I'm sure if someone has they'll flag it with me. Uh, but Mr. It seems that Mr. Saraki was apparently not present. So, do you have any recollection of this incident? Um,
02:35:43 Um, where is Slade Green? That might help me to
02:35:51 I'm not being awkward when I ask. Not at all. Not at all. That's a It's a It's a good question. My My genie is just finding that. Southeast London.
02:36:02 Um
02:36:08 Beexley. Beexley. Um it's quite possible we went to Beexley. I
02:36:19 I kind of I was I was talking um to colleagues um yesterday I think it was I have an inkling
02:36:30 I have an inkling of this event um
02:36:34 um two things that I need to say about it. One is it is an inkling and two, I don't recognize the way that it's worded.
02:36:45 it's worded. Okay.
02:36:45 Okay. So, I don't know what else to say about that.
02:36:48 that. No, thank you. I think if you confine yourself to what you do recall from the time rather than what you may have been told recently. Um, but you're effectively your suggestion is there's nothing jumping out at you think.
02:37:01 nothing jumping out at you think. Look, I think this is I think this is relating to an incident at one of the canvasing events in that area. That's why I asked um when we had gone leafleting an area
02:37:15 um when we had gone leafleting an area that was being targeted by the far right and that there was a a a an instance where we met canvases
02:37:27 a a an instance where we met canvases coming up um a a driveway. We weren't aware that they were there. We knew that the BMP had been targeting that area and that there had been I would call it
02:37:39 that there had been I would call it handbags at at paces, if I can use that term now. It might be a bit dated. uh handbag paces and and that the BMP had
02:37:50 handbag paces and and that the BMP had been they had the I'm I'm extrapolating from my memory so please uh forgive me if it's slightly wrong but I I do recall that there was a
02:38:02 wrong but I I do recall that there was a a a
02:38:05 a a standoff and that maybe I recall um
02:38:13 um trying to stop trouble. And that's pretty much how it ended. So, I'm not sure if that's the this that's what this is about or not. I can't tell you for definite for definite.
02:38:24 definite for definite. So, you you have no clear recollection of an incident of Slade Green. What you do recall appears to be which could be Slade Green, but maybe another instance. It may it may not be but I mean it's not unusual
02:38:36 unusual for when there is a an election imminent and the far right are standing in an area for people to be leafleting in that area and to come into contact with the far right. So and sometimes they take
02:38:50 far right. So and sometimes they take exception that you'll be leafleting that community. Oh I mean it it stands to reason that's what I think this might refer to but I can't say for definite. But at best you appear to be describing
02:39:02 But at best you appear to be describing um a verbal altercation rather than an attack on campus. There's no no I mean I know I keep saying this but the the the way that it's presented as an attack
02:39:13 the way that it's presented as an attack now I just that sounds like a premedicate we are going to go there to a track a BMP canvases. No, we knew that the BMP was standing in
02:39:25 No, we knew that the BMP was standing in in different areas in in Southeast London and indeed in East London and we would go to those areas and we would leaflet.
02:39:33 leaflet. Thank you very much, Mr. Batty. Um, could we now please show MPS30737?
02:39:40 This is another document from uh Carlos Iraqi's file. That's B41 in that file, sir. And this is a document headed quarterly operation review Kraggy Island
02:39:51 quarterly operation review Kraggy Island and is for the period of the 1st of October 2001 to the 31st of December 2001.
02:39:58 2001. Now at page one final paragraph of the section headed target about halfway down the page it's section on no platform and it says this. No platform was formed in
02:40:10 it says this. No platform was formed in late 2000 and is in effect a coming together of militant anti-fascist street fighters whose common link is the willingness to carry out violent assaults on individuals or groups
02:40:21 assaults on individuals or groups belonging to the extreme rightwing. Although activists are drawn from differing strands of the far-left and anarchist tradition, they are united in the belief that violent confrontation is a key strategic element in beating
02:40:32 a key strategic element in beating fascism. To that end, NP has on a number of occasions in the past year put that belief into violent action against members of the National Front and also police officers acting to prevent
02:40:43 police officers acting to prevent disorder.
02:40:48 I take it you don't accept that as an accurate description of no platform.
02:40:55 Do you want me to expand on that? I know that I've already said previous times this is always a defensive action. The the way that it is being worded
02:41:08 The the way that it is being worded street fighters, militant um attacking far-left. We I I never considered myself far-left. I never considered myself a street
02:41:19 I never considered myself a street fighter. I never considered I was particularly militant. Although I was involved in an organization that had that name. Um those of us who were involved in no platform did not join an
02:41:32 involved in no platform did not join an organization to go running around at the weekends and at nighttime fighting that the the the very thought of that is anathema. We have jobs, you know, we're drawn I'm not literally drawn from
02:41:45 drawn I'm not literally drawn from people like myself who, you know, have been involved in standing in elections. I mean, I stood in the election for Cornhill in the city of London. I'm a free man of the city of London. I am not
02:41:58 free man of the city of London. I am not a violent street fighter. I don't understand where this sort of characterization comes from unless you're trying to legitimize an ongoing situation of undercover policing when
02:42:11 situation of undercover policing when you can't actually report on anything of substance. I mean, nobody he's been involved in during this deployment has has ar been has been arrested during his time there. What
02:42:22 arrested during his time there. What what what kind of policing is that? Um the report also this this summary also refers to action against police officers.
02:42:34 officers. Do do you have any recollection of no action against police? I mean this is supporters in I have to say that is a fabrication
02:42:47 and you you suggest that this is a wholly in wholly inaccurate summary even taking into mind the disorder at say for example the tavern. No, I mean if you were to
02:42:59 you were to take my words that I've said now about occupying spaces, defending communities, stewarding demonstrations and say that those are violent street fighting
02:43:10 those are violent street fighting activities, then mere culpa. But they're not, are they? I mean, it's quite obvious they're not. Before we leave this document at page
02:43:21 Before we leave this document at page two, the second paragraph
02:43:26 says here, CI Kraggy Island is now considered one of the 10 leading activists within NP and is in a key position to report on future plans by the group. Would you agree that by the end of 2001,
02:43:39 Would you agree that by the end of 2001, Mr. Saraki was regarded as one of the 10 leading activists in their platform? I I think Carlo would say he was one of the 10 leading activists. I think as I said to you before I I I struggle to see when
02:43:52 to you before I I I struggle to see when Carlo was
02:43:53 Carlo was was there and indeed the the action that you said took place at Slay Green he wasn't at. So I mean what was he at? Because there's nothing that's been reported that I've seen that says he was
02:44:05 reported that I've seen that says he was there. So what was he doing? Could we move forward a couple of years to the visit of President Bush in November 2003?
02:44:16 2003? Um, if we could show please MPS 20295. So that's B34 you note. And this is a report dated the 27th of
02:44:27 And this is a report dated the 27th of October 2003 about no platforms plans ahead of the visit by President George W. Bush to the UK in November 2003. And at the first paragraph, it reads,
02:44:38 And at the first paragraph, it reads, "NP activists are planning to take an active role during the forthcoming visit of President Bush. The group has to date not been asked to take part in any steward in activists are pleased that this will give them the opportunity to
02:44:49 this will give them the opportunity to roam around to any hot spots and get involved in any disorder." Then at the second paragraph,
02:45:00 whilst it is unlikely that NP members will be the ones to initiate any disorder, they will seek to keep the tensions high by making interventions when they see the opportunity.
02:45:11 when they see the opportunity. And then further down the page at source comment,
02:45:16 comment, NP activists are keen to get involved in the Bush visit protests as they see the visit as the first opportunity in a very long time for a situation to develop where mass public disorder could develop. Most of the group are not
02:45:28 develop. Most of the group are not strangers to protest of this kind and have experience of being able to agitate and aggravate a developing situation. Joe Batty and Frank Smith are particularly good in these situations and are very adept at slipping away.
02:45:41 and are very adept at slipping away. Then if we could next go to another document which is MPS 202970. So that's B35
02:45:52 which is dated the 13th of November 2003 which includes reporting about the socialist party's planned involvement with the demonstration. Now at paragraph one, it refers to the
02:46:03 Now at paragraph one, it refers to the arrangements noting that the SP will not be stewarding the front of the march but the SP block and notes that you and Frank Smith have been asked to coordinate stewarding. And then below in the source comment,
02:46:18 the SP stewarding team has a lot of experience having been involved in numerous demonstrations over the years, some of which have turned into large-scale disorder. The team will be disciplined during the actual
02:46:29 disciplined during the actual demonstration, but once it reaches Rafalga Square, the away team will seek to link up with their anarchist associates from NP and seek out the hot spots. Now,
02:46:40 spots. Now, do you recall those demon the demonstration in 2003 against George W. Bush?
02:46:45 Bush? Barely.
02:46:47 Barely. Would it be fair from your recollection that generally speaking these protests were goodnatured and nonviolent? Yeah.
02:46:55 Yeah. What was no platform's interest in this demonstration given the group's main focus was countering the extreme right? Um
02:47:05 Um we would have been there as stewards. See the the main thing about demonstrations and stewarding which we would have we were ultimately asked to do by the way for the for the socialist
02:47:17 do by the way for the for the socialist party it says in here um the whole point of stewarding a demonstration is to keep people safe on the demonstration not to go running off on some vain
02:47:28 not to go running off on some vain glorious adventure to seek out fascists and batter them. I mean it's it's just not it's just not what you do as a steward. Uh the whole point would have been to to stay on the demonstration.
02:47:41 been to to stay on the demonstration. It's not, you're right, it's not um a a demonstration that no platform would have been involved in. We would have been involved in it as individuals
02:47:52 have been involved in it as individuals because we were also involved in different types of politics. That that's kind of where that ends. So you're brought in as capable hands for
02:48:01 for we weren't brought in as capable hands. You have to we have to put it into context. we were members of the socialist party.
02:48:13 So effectively the the linking which to be fair I don't think it does so much in this document but in the previous document the linking of this to no platform is not correct
02:48:25 not correct only in so far as there are people in common
02:48:30 common and you you refer in your statement um at paragraph 4.6 six to there being a particular need for stewards at the dispersal stage of a demonstration. Yeah. I mean
02:48:41 Yeah. I mean the thing about stewarding is that the most vulnerable time for a demonstration is dispersal. um because it's quite easy when um
02:48:56 um because it's quite easy when um communities are dispersing for those who might have nefarious intent to actually get amongst the crowd and and target individuals. So I always saw and I'm
02:49:08 individuals. So I always saw and I'm sure Dan and others always saw their responsibility on any demonstration is to ensure that people who go on that demonstration because they've asked them to go on that demonstration to make sure
02:49:20 to go on that demonstration to make sure that they got away from that demonstration safely. So the last thing that we would want to do is to go on on on an expedition to find fascists, thus
02:49:32 on an expedition to find fascists, thus leaving the very people who were there to to to support and look after on their own. So it doesn't make sense. and and in this context where where your involvement is potentially more through the the Socialist Party side of things.
02:49:46 the the Socialist Party side of things. Um can I ask have you ever been involved in instances of public disorder which hadn't involved which doesn't involve the extreme rightwing? The only time I've ever been anywhere
02:49:59 The only time I've ever been anywhere that significantly involved violence was Welling
02:50:05 Welling and Trafalga Square and I've already touched on them for the for the what for the pole tax rights.
02:50:11 rights. Yeah,
02:50:12 Yeah, there were demonstrations that turned into right by police action. I'm sorry I need to say that. Thank you. That's helpful clarification.
02:50:26 Um, I'd like to ask you very briefly about your involvement with Antifa. Um, please can we show MPS 20 31983 which is B39 in your bundle.
02:50:54 Now, this is dated from the 27th of February, 2004, and it's a report about Antifa holding monthly meetings. Now, looking at the date, am I right that that's around the time that you're considering moving back
02:51:05 time that you're considering moving back to Manchester? Yes.
02:51:09 Yes. And in the first paragraph of the document, there's a record of you attending with Dan Gilman, seeming on behalf of the Socialist Party, this this Antifa meeting. Is that a correct
02:51:20 Antifa meeting. Is that a correct description of your capacity at this meeting?
02:51:23 meeting? Um, I think we were there to see uh because we were invited. I think Carlo Ner was there as well. I I think he was there because he was invited with us.
02:51:36 invited with us. And now, oh, sorry, that's it really. At page one in the second paragraph, the report refers to discussions about extreme right-wing events and ways of preventing and disrupting them and
02:51:47 preventing and disrupting them and refers to everyone present acknowledging that targeting of the BNP must take priority.
02:51:53 priority. And then overleaf at page two, first paragraph and halfway through the third line,
02:52:02 the report refers to Antifa wanting to disrupt, not attack BNP red, white, and blue family weekend. Now, in your statement,
02:52:13 Now, in your statement, uh, paragraph 5.3, we don't need to bring it up. Um, you said that you have no knowledge of how the organization Antifa is structured or operates. Is that
02:52:24 that is is that still the case? I wasn't I wasn't part of Antifa, so I don't know. So So does and you say that despite your presence at this meeting that this was a as far as I recall this was an kind of like a um either an initial
02:52:39 an kind of like a um either an initial meeting or we were invited to a meeting, but it wasn't something that I was interested in in continuing with. And and I'm pretty sure that the Socialist Party members of of uh no platform
02:52:52 Party members of of uh no platform wouldn't have wanted to continue. And and just for absolute clarity, you didn't have any further involvement with Antifa.
02:52:59 Antifa. No.
02:53:00 No. Can we look please at a document MPS 0526932
02:53:07 page 76 please? So that's B55 of the bundle.
02:53:15 Now, this is um an authorization document in relation to the continuation of Mr. Saraki's deployment.
02:53:34 Page 76, please.
02:53:45 And if we scroll down the page
02:53:50 uh fourth paragraph from the foot of the page start the one that starts other points of interest and the third line of that it says uh refers to the permanent
02:54:01 that it says uh refers to the permanent was end of the second line the permanent return to London of leading Antifa activist Jay Batty who has moved to Manchester. So take it from that that this is an entirely inaccurate description of you.
02:54:13 description of you. No, it's not. And I don't like being regended either, but apart from that, I don't recognize it as a statement. I'm I was never in that position. And um to to be absolutely clear,
02:54:24 And um to to be absolutely clear, although there may have been some common membership between those sorry there may have been common involvement between those who who supported No Platform and
02:54:35 those who who supported No Platform and those who were involved with Antifa. Yeah,
02:54:37 Yeah, they are. They were effectively distinct groupings. They were distinct. I mean, Antifa mainly speaking, mainly, not exclusively, but mainly speaking in a a
02:54:49 exclusively, but mainly speaking in a a Europeanwide context is anarchistic. We're not anarchists.
02:55:00 Thank you, Mr. Betty. I'd like to now move on to your knowledge of Mr. Saraki's um deceitful social relationships.
02:55:09 Um these will of course be explored with the individuals in question but I do have a few points with which I hope you may be able to assist the chair. Um now
02:55:20 may be able to assist the chair. Um now you have a cipher list with you which should help you. Um and I'd like to ask you some questions about Lindsay. In 2001 Mr. Saraki commenced a deceitful
02:55:32 In 2001 Mr. Saraki commenced a deceitful sexual sexual relationship with a woman we're calling Lindsay. reminder not to use her real name. Uh did you know Lindsay at that time in 2001? Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
02:55:47 Mr. Saraki uh in his statement says that you and the others in no platform were aware of his relationship with Lindsay but that it wasn't widely spoken about.
02:55:58 but that it wasn't widely spoken about. Is that correct? Um it might not have been widely spoken about by everybody. I was aware of it and in point of fact um I spoke to to Carlo quite a lot about
02:56:11 um I spoke to to Carlo quite a lot about his relationship with Lindsay when I had I mean the amount of times that I socialized with a guy this was a conversation that would come up because
02:56:22 conversation that would come up because I always thought Lindsay was a a really lovely intelligent woman and I couldn't understand why he was kind of treating her the way that he treated her. So that
02:56:34 her the way that he treated her. So that was a conversation and that's not in the knowledge of what happened by the way. That's in in the knowledge of how he was at the time breaking up with his girlfriend. So this to do with the the Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
02:56:45 Yeah. Yeah. For sure. The end the the end of that relationship. Yeah. I mean and and also why he was no longer seeing her, what were the reasons were and that I I remember discussing that for if I'm
02:56:56 remember discussing that for if I'm honest too long. You know, two BS in the steam room talking about his ex-girlfriend isn't a good look. that but that's what I did quite a lot. C can you remember can you assist us with
02:57:07 can you remember can you assist us with the the timings of that relationship? Do do you recall how how long that went on? Maybe 6 months to a year. I can't recall. It was a bit fluid. I think they were on and off for a little while but I'm not sure.
02:57:20 little while but I'm not sure. Uh and the relationship although maybe not wide he says not widely spoken about it. Was was it common knowledge within your within your circle? It was common knowledge within a cohort of people who had known Lindsay
02:57:32 had known Lindsay for decades. So yes, it was known. Um, was Lindsay involved with activism? No. She she may have been when she was a young woman, but she wasn't now.
02:57:45 young woman, but she wasn't now. Did she attend Socialist Party or no platform events? Never. No platform. She might have event attended a social event with the
02:57:56 attended a social event with the socialist party but I can't recall that. I think she attended my 40th birthday uh at Dantises in Islington which Carlo
02:58:07 at Dantises in Islington which Carlo arranged.
02:58:10 arranged. And was and you did you know Lindsay prior to her relationship with Carlos Saraki or was that something somebody that others in the group knew? Fleetingly, yes, I was aware of her. Yeah, I met her. I I thought she was a
02:58:22 Yeah, I met her. I I thought she was a really personable person. Yeah, she made an impact. Did the fact of the relationship between Mr. Saraki and Lindsay affect how he was viewed by you personally or by your
02:58:34 viewed by you personally or by your colleagues in their platform? Um
02:58:39 Um well obviously in so far as he was dating somebody who was known to us and and and a friend to a number of people then it certainly
02:58:52 then it certainly in hindsight allow allowed him a degree of credibility. Oh he's is a solid guy he's with this girl. We know this girl etc etc woman. Sorry my mistake. And you say known to a number of people.
02:59:04 And you say known to a number of people. I don't need you to name names, but can you have a think about how many people in your circle would have known her before before the relationship? Um, I would say at least a dozen people that I knew knew of them and their
02:59:17 that I knew knew of them and their relationship. They were friends of mine. Sorry, perhaps I've misphrased my question. How many people knew her as an individual before her relationship before Carlo with Carlos Saraki?
02:59:29 before Carlo with Carlos Saraki? A number. I can't put an exact number on it, but I I know a lot of people who myself, I know a lot of people from the Socialist Party knew her because she'd been a member of the so the militant uh
02:59:41 been a member of the so the militant uh a long time, not not at this point, but previously. And as far as you could tell, how serious was that relationship?
02:59:52 Serious enough to go on for fallen holidays?
03:00:02 Um, I'd like to ask you a little very very briefly about Donna Mlan. Um, on the 28th of September 2002, Mr. Saraki met Donna Mlan at an anti-war demonstration and had a had a
03:00:14 demonstration and had a had a relationship with her. Am I right that Miss Mlan was also a friend of yours? Um, she was Yeah, she was known to me for definite. I would I would say we uh
03:00:26 for definite. I would I would say we uh we're at that cusp between being friends and acquaintances. And are you still in contact? No, that's just circumstances.
03:00:38 No, that's just circumstances. And your So you were you acquaintances? You were acquaintance. Sorry. From your answer, do I take it that you were acquaintances before she was in a
03:00:50 were acquaintances before she was in a relationship with Mr. Saraki? I may have met her a couple of times before. Yeah. I think she was she was um good friends with Dan. Yes.
03:00:59 Yes. And that's Mr. Gilman. Yeah. Sorry, Mr. Gilman. And me and Dan worked in homelessness. And I think that's I think she may have
03:01:11 And I think that's I think she may have worked for the same organization uh St. Mongols at the time at some point.
03:01:19 Um, from your experience, was Miss McClean a political activist?
03:01:27 Not especially.
03:01:30 Would you have described her as active in left-wing politics and anti-fascism? No.
03:01:39 No. I'd like to ask you about an incident which you address at section 11 of your witness statement, which is the suggestion that Mr. Saraki encouraged you and others to attack a charity shop owned by an Italian fascist.
03:01:51 owned by an Italian fascist. Yeah.
03:01:52 Yeah. You explain at paragraph 11.1 uh page 31 of your witness statement that the incident took place at a New Year's Eve party at Donna Mlan's flat in
03:02:04 Year's Eve party at Donna Mlan's flat in Mavale.
03:02:06 Mavale. Correct. Yeah. Now, at correct at the time of producing your statement, you're unable to say which year this was. Is your recollection of that date any clearer today?
03:02:19 Not especially. I I I can tell you if it's recorded elsewhere, if this all put it into context, it was the New Year's Eve where Carlo
03:02:34 it was the New Year's Eve where Carlo and Donna got engaged. So, uh, we'll come to that now then if that if that helps. So, you And you're certain it's that same night?
03:02:46 And you're certain it's that same night? Yeah, because Carlo was very good at playing mine host and he was serving his grapper again. Can you recall how long Mr. Saraki and
03:02:57 Can you recall how long Mr. Saraki and Miss McClean had been together by that time?
03:03:00 time? I would imagine it was over a year, a year and a bit. Maybe a year and a half. I can't I can't recall for definite, but they've been with her for quite a long time,
03:03:09 time, relatively speaking. But either way, it was definitely the night of the engagement. Yeah.
03:03:20 At the when they became engaged, was that engagement common knowledge between your friends and associates? Yeah. But actually, it must have been the same night because I don't recall going to a new another
03:03:33 going to a new another New Year's Eve party at that at Donna's place in Male. Yeah. Um, so can you repeat the question? I'm really sorry. I I wanted to get
03:03:43 to get just whether it was common knowledge between your whether the engagement Yeah, it was announced. We were all cheering and and taking shots. So, yes, it was announced.
03:03:54 it was announced. And and as far as you're concerned, after that date, that engagement continued to subsist. Yeah, of course. Yeah. At Paragraph 11.3 of your statement on page 32,
03:04:05 page 32, you explained that you were aware of Roberto Fury and that he was in the United Kingdom after leaving Italy following an alleged role in the bombing of Bologna Railway Station.
03:04:18 of Bologna Railway Station. Do I take it from your statement therefore that you were aware of Mr. Fury and his background prior to that evening? Yeah,
03:04:29 evening? Yeah, I I think it's really um quite instructive. I I I gather Carlo as part of his legend had gone to Bologna and put things into context. So I was aware
03:04:40 put things into context. So I was aware of Roberto Fury. He was a bet noir of the of the anti-fascist movement in in London at that time. His whereabouts weren't known. um his actions or
03:04:52 weren't known. um his actions or reported actions um uh as part of the uh Bologna bombing at the railway station which killed people was known. There is
03:05:03 which killed people was known. There is a um
03:05:06 a um a uh a a memorial at the railway station um to that effect. So yes, I was aware of it. I uh look he was a regular feature in Searchlight magazine and
03:05:18 feature in Searchlight magazine and other magazines on the on the uh that monitor the the far right. So I was more than well aware of him. I didn't know where he was living. I had no real interest of finding out where he was living. So I just want to put that into
03:05:29 living. So I just want to put that into context.
03:05:30 context. However, and I really do need to give this texture. Carlo was forever going on about his history with the Red Brigades. And I don't understand how he didn't
03:05:42 And I don't understand how he didn't understand the first time I challenged him on this, but he would talk about how, you know, he'd been involved with this and blah blah. And and like I remember telling him that there is a
03:05:53 remember telling him that there is a there is a philosophical reason why we're not in we're not involved in terrorism. It's really simple. It alienates everybody and wins no arguments. So, I'm not sure if that that part of
03:06:06 So, I'm not sure if that that part of his legend was he wanted to to try and persuade us in a different direction, but I really really disappointed me that he never actually picked up on that.
03:06:18 he never actually picked up on that. When when you said a second ago that he was involved with this, what what did he tell you he he had been involved with? He would he would say that when I was in um when he sorry when he was in uh
03:06:32 um when he sorry when he was in uh Bologna he'd been running with the red brigades or the youth that was involved in the red brigades because obviously significant time had passed since they
03:06:43 significant time had passed since they were actually active. Um and that he sort of tried to indicate that that gave him a kind of credence as some sort of
03:06:54 him a kind of credence as some sort of militant anti-fascist because of what they'd done in Bologna. Challenge that because um lesson 101 within the Socialist Party is that you
03:07:07 within the Socialist Party is that you read a pamphlet by Leon Trosky which talks about deploring individual acts of terrorism. So we're all on the same page. Now you say in your statement that Mr. Saraki would have been fully aware that
03:07:19 Saraki would have been fully aware that you and others knew would been familiar with Mr. Fury. How would he know about your level of familiarity with that topic?
03:07:26 topic? Uh because we been talking to him, haven't I? Obviously in in the multiple times that we had drinks. There was a lot of drinks. Um yeah.
03:07:38 There was a lot of drinks. Um yeah. Now also in this paragraph you explain that Mr. Saraki told you that Mr. Fury was running a chain of charity shops, one of which was in Made a Vale, a few minutes from uh Miss McClan's flat. Were
03:07:50 minutes from uh Miss McClan's flat. Were you aware of the suggestion that he ran charity shops?
03:07:56 This is one of them re one of them times when I can't remember after the fact or before the fact. So I think I may have been familiar with the argument that he or the the knowledge that he had been
03:08:09 or the the knowledge that he had been been uh involved in. involved in something of this ilk, maybe property, but I don't know about charity shops.
03:08:21 But you were unaware of the loc. Well, so you weren't you weren't sure that there is any connection. You know what? I wasn't interested. So I didn't go out of my way to find out where it was. It was of no interest to me.
03:08:31 me. So your only knowledge came from Mr. Saraki.
03:08:34 Saraki. Well, yeah. That's the only the only place it came from. And presumably before he told you, you had no idea about the location of these shops.
03:08:43 shops. Absolutely.
03:08:46 You say um at the last line of paragraph 11.3 that Mr. Saraki's intention was clearly to peique your interest and he went so far as to suggest that it would
03:08:58 went so far as to suggest that it would be terrible if something like a firebombing were to happen to these to the building. Now, I appreciate it's a long time since then, but were those the words that he used or were those your
03:09:10 words that he used or were those your words?
03:09:11 words? No. Uh, I think his language was as suitably opaque as that. That was how he put it. Wouldn't it be terrible if
03:09:22 put it. Wouldn't it be terrible if something like a firebomb firebombing were to happen to the building? So yes, I look I can't tell you that was a verbatim,
03:09:32 verbatim, but that was the very much the tenor of what he was saying. But do you rec do you recall him specifically referring to a former? Absolutely.
03:09:45 Excuse the pun, but that was seed into my mind because that was literally what what pulled me up short because I don't know, like I said before, I don't know how he didn't see that this didn't fit
03:09:58 how he didn't see that this didn't fit with our raising detra. Now, there's a suggestion by Mr. Saraki that it was Mr. Gilman who came up with the suggestion. What do you say to that? It's just not true. Dan look Dan didn't
03:10:11 It's just not true. Dan look Dan didn't even as far as I'm aware I can't speak for Dan because he's he he's made his points already. I don't even think Dan knew about Roberto Fior in full stop.
03:10:23 knew about Roberto Fior in full stop. So and again going back so you you you remember it being a kind of an opaque description of what what may happen but you do specifically remember firebombing. Abs
03:10:35 what's the word? in congruous words coming in in a in a in a a discussion at a party when he just got um engaged. I don't I'm not sure whether it was he had
03:10:46 don't I'm not sure whether it was he had opportunity to embroil us in something and that was the that's how he saw it. I don't know. I don't know it a reference a description of
03:10:57 it a reference a description of firebombing doesn't seem that opaque. That seems quite clear. It does, doesn't it? In hindsight, it is quite I mean that was the bit that seared into my mind. Let's let's be
03:11:08 seared into my mind. Let's let's be honest.
03:11:09 honest. The next paragraph of your statement, you describe a group leaving the party to visit the shop. Yeah. Not my finest hour, I have to say. And you But you say you remember clearly
03:11:21 And you But you say you remember clearly Mr. Saraki was not amongst you when No, I think he gave us directions how to get there. It was literally a 100 yards and round and turned left. I think since for his house who wasn't with us at that
03:11:32 for his house who wasn't with us at that time. I I'm not going to name check everybody was there, but I don't believe Frank was there. Yes, you you you said um now you've quite candidly volunteered in your
03:11:43 quite candidly volunteered in your statement that you had been drinking and and that you were likely drunk. I was drunk. I don't think you're likely about it to be honest. Uh what made it stick in your mind that Mrs. Iraqi wasn't with you?
03:11:58 Um because I think well I know actually I can tell you why because we're all discussing on the way around on the way down to it if we got the directions
03:12:09 down to it if we got the directions right. If if Carlo had been there he'd have been telling us it's down here and on the left of me guys.
03:12:18 What was it that made you want to visit the shop?
03:12:22 the shop? Um,
03:12:24 Um, drunken curiosity. As I say, it's not my finest hour. Did you go with the intention to damage the shop in any way? No.
03:12:38 When you visited the shop, can you recall what happened? Yeah, we all looked at it and it was unremarkable. I think I may have banged on the window and everybody thought that was a bit
03:12:50 and everybody thought that was a bit frightening and we all left. I had no intention of putting the window through by the way. That was just me putting the window up people. So that was one of my questions going to be what was your intention on pressing
03:13:02 be what was your intention on pressing or banging the windows. You describe it's just it's just a bit of drunken bravado if I'm honest. Like I say I'm not proud of myself but I
03:13:13 Like I say I'm not proud of myself but I didn't hide the fact that I did it. Nobody else reported it anywhere. I volunteered that comment. Uh Mr. Gilman in his witness statement, we don't need to go there, but it's paragraph 4.25, uh suggested there was a
03:13:25 paragraph 4.25, uh suggested there was a discussion of damaging the shop with bricks through the window. Do you recall that suggestion being made? I don't to be honest. No. And maybe that's why I bang the window and everyone changed their opinion. I don't
03:13:36 everyone changed their opinion. I don't know.
03:13:40 Uh, do you recall M sir Saraki ever making such a suggestion?
03:13:46 Well, he wasn't there at the time as far as I recall.
03:13:52 recall. Before you left, do you recall him suggesting to I don't recall one way or the other actually.
03:13:58 actually. Now at paragraph 11.6 you explained that you revisit the shop a few days later. Can you explain how that came about? Yeah, I think I think
03:14:09 that came about? Yeah, I think I think it was an it was another um opportunity to go with a drink for a drink with Carlo. Um and we had a drink in a pub in Mavil.
03:14:21 in a pub in Mavil. I do hope he wasn't over the limit. He he was driving us, I think, back to Maidale tube station. Um and we went past the building and he pointed it out to us again and he
03:14:33 pointed it out to us again and he repeated the the message that you know, oh that's that building, have a think about it or whatever he was saying and and and that was it really.
03:14:44 and and that was it really. And say he was driving you back to the station.
03:14:48 station. Do you recall was the charity shop an intentional waypoint or was it simply on the way from where you were going to where you had been? I can't I I I do not know the physical
03:15:01 I can't I I I do not know the physical layout of made avail so I can't tell you if he went out of his way to take us to the station or not.
03:15:10 Did um do you do you recall Mr. Saraki specifically encouraging you to revisit? Um
03:15:18 Um beyond that, no. I think um he he I think he was hoping that he'd sold enough seeds. He didn't want to overe it because if he overegged it, we'd think why is he keep banging on about us doing
03:15:31 why is he keep banging on about us doing damage to this building. So on that second visit, the extent of Mr. Saraki's involvement, you say, was just to point out it was to point out and reiterate and reiterate.
03:15:42 and reiterate. Yeah. So I want to be really clear that's that's what that is. And on that second occasion, what what did he say? Can you recall? you you'll now testing my memory, but it's like that is the building that that's the
03:15:53 that is the building that that's the building we were talking about the other night and you know basically you should think about what we should do about that building or words to that effect. I
03:16:04 building or words to that effect. I can't I'm really sorry this is like a quarter of a century ago. I can't remember exactly. No, I appreciate that Mr. Mr. Patty. It's it's a long time ago. Um one more
03:16:15 It's it's a long time ago. Um one more question on that recollection though. Do you do you have any recollection of um a form of arson being mentioned on that second occasion?
03:16:26 Look, I mean, I don't know. I can't remember, but I but um I think the intent the intent and I can't know his intent, but my feeling is intent was to to
03:16:38 to back up his original statement when we were in a state of sobriety. After the se after that second visit, was the ownership of the charity shop or
03:16:49 was the ownership of the charity shop or the suggestion of some form of attack on it ever mentioned again? No.
03:16:55 No. By
03:16:56 By I don't think by either of us to be honest. No, I don't think anybody mentioned it again. Look, I I the position is quite simple. We wouldn't have done anything with that information. I think
03:17:07 information. I think it wasn't a door that was worth pushing because it wasn't a jar. it was quite clear we weren't going to do it. So I take it from that that you and your colleagues at no platform had weren't
03:17:19 colleagues at no platform had weren't involved in any subsequent peaceful action like a protest that happened because at the end of the day although we've been told that it was a charity shop. So I'm not sure it would
03:17:31 charity shop. So I'm not sure it would have been a good look to pick at a charity shop unless we absolutely knew that Roberto Fury um was was running that shop.
03:17:42 that shop. Thank you Mr. Matty, that those are my questions on this topic. Was there anything else you wanted to raise in relation to this? I kind of I kind of can't help
03:17:53 I kind of I kind of can't help and maybe I'm missing something here, but the whole point of Carlo's deployment was to discover issues like this. Now,
03:18:04 was to discover issues like this. Now, if he didn't mention it, we mentioned it, why wasn't it reported? because that is surely the the reddest of red flags that we were going to be involved in some act of domestic
03:18:16 involved in some act of domestic terrorism and yet he never he never responded to it. He never he never reported it. It's not in in any of his reports.
03:18:24 reports. I don't I I I personally do not understand. The only thing I can say is he knew he instigated it. We didn't. Uh thank you very much Mr. Batty. Um so
03:18:35 Uh thank you very much Mr. Batty. Um so I think this might be time for lunch. Yes. Cheers. I I hope not to spend too much
03:18:42 much um longer, but I I think it's going to be longer than it's reasonable to ask our stenographer to to sit. Absolutely. Um do you mind um not finishing now or not finishing in
03:18:54 finishing now or not finishing in I've come down from my humble abode in the north to be at this meeting. So I'm not going anywhere today. Right. In which case we will break until um just after two for lunch.
03:19:06 um just after two for lunch. Thank you. All right.