Noel Douglas provides evidence regarding his background in political activism, his role as an artist and designer within the Globalise Resistance (GR) movement, and his interactions with the undercover officer HN118 (Simon Wellings). He discusses the ideological goals of GR, its relationship with the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), and challenges the officer's claim of being a 'leading light' within the organization.
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00:29:26 Good morning, everybody. Today's proceedings are being live streamed after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile telephones may use them to report what they're hearing in the hearing
00:29:37 what they're hearing in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography. May the witness be sworn, please. Thank you. Thank you. You have to repeat after me, please. I
00:29:49 You have to repeat after me, please. I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give will be the truth will be the truth truth
00:29:58 truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. and nothing but the truth. Is it done? Yes.
00:30:04 Yes. Mr. Douglas, thank you very much for attending to assist the inquiry with your evidence. Uh my questions are intended to be short and simple. They don't always turn out that way. Mhm. Um if you have any difficulty
00:30:16 Mhm. Um if you have any difficulty understanding anything I ask you, please do ask me to repeat it or rephrase the question.
00:30:21 question. Um if you need a break at any point this morning, please let me know. Yeah. And also, may I ask that you please keep your voice up to assist the transcribers. Yeah. You've provided a witness statement to
00:30:32 You've provided a witness statement to the inquiry. Please, can we display control number UCPI 37793? So, tab A1 of the bundle.
00:30:45 This is a statement dated the 17th of March 2025 and consists of 16 pages. If we could turn, please, to page 16. There is a We can see it's signed on
00:30:57 There is a We can see it's signed on that final page with the signature that's been redacted for privacy. Can you confirm that that was your signature under the redaction box? And can you confirm that the statement is true to the best of your knowledge
00:31:09 is true to the best of your knowledge and belief? Absolutely, yes. Are you happy for this to stand as your principal evidence to the inquiry? I am, yes. So, if I may ask that be admitted into evidence.
00:31:19 In that witness statement, you deal with your involvement with a group called Globalise Resistance that you now understand was reported on by an undercover officer with the cover
00:31:30 by an undercover officer with the cover name Simon Wellings. He is known in this inquiry by his cipher HN118. He also had three code names whilst undercover, which you may have seen
00:31:41 undercover, which you may have seen within your disclosure. Those names Those names were initially Groundhog Day,
00:31:46 Day, then later Ringwraith and Rivet Bolt. Is it right that you knew HN118 through your involvement with Globalise Resistance? He was somebody known to you
00:31:57 Resistance? He was somebody known to you personally.
00:32:00 I'd like to look first at your personal background, if I may. Mhm. Um
00:32:05 Mhm. Um Your professional background, I understand that you are an artist and designer. Mhm. And that your work has been exhibited at the Design Museum and the Victoria and Albert Museum. Yes, and I'm also a senior lecturer at university.
00:32:17 university. And can you describe your area of specialism? Um I'm a course leader at the moment for graphic design and animation, and my specialism in terms of my work is a mixture of art and design.
00:32:30 art and design. Turning to your background in activism. Mhm.
00:32:33 Mhm. Uh you explain in your statement at paragraph four on page two that you became
00:32:38 became a member of the Socialist Workers Party in 1996.
00:32:42 in 1996. So, that would have been when you were in your mid-20s, correct? Uh was that your first involvement in political activism? No, I was the first involvement I had in the thing that
00:32:54 involvement I had in the thing that sort of made me more aware of activism I was a president of student union at my art school foundation in Great Yarmouth in 1989.
00:33:02 in 1989. And that was the year when Margaret Thatcher brought in student loans and as I was about to go to university and would need a grant we took a coach load of students down to
00:33:13 we took a coach load of students down to London. There was a demonstration called by the NUS. And we took 50 people down and that demonstration in the end was tried to march to parliament and was stopped at Westminster Bridge
00:33:24 stopped at Westminster Bridge and was held there for a number of hours by the police and then we were charged by mounted police with truncheons raised coming into the crowd
00:33:33 crowd and all of my group got dispersed at that point and as I was the president of the student union I was sort of responsible for getting them back on the coach to Yarmouth and that was a very difficult job and it was a very traumatic experience and that really
00:33:45 traumatic experience and that really um although I was coming from a working class background I would say I was sort of
00:33:49 of implicitly wondering why you know there were poor and rich people and why we were in the situation we were in that really um solidified my or had to get some ideas of why
00:34:00 get some ideas of why if I just wanted a free education why had that happened to me why had I been beaten up and so that led to a process of coming across left-wing ideas which led to the culmination in the mid in the mid-90s of me joining the SWP
00:34:11 in the mid-90s of me joining the SWP because I came across Marxism and I came across ideas that I felt essentially explained what I'd been feeling so that was kind of the route my route to radical politics.
00:34:22 route to radical politics. Uh you were also involved as an active artist in the global justice movement um can you explain a little about sorry the global justice movement and the anti-capitalist movement? Yes, so obviously in my lifetime that was the
00:34:34 obviously in my lifetime that was the first
00:34:36 first movement that had kind of kicked up. I'd been involved in the rave era and been involved in raves and of course they'd got suppressed but I wasn't really involved in the politics of that.
00:34:47 really involved in the politics of that. But I'd kind of been involved in the artistic side obviously and when the global justice movement kind of kicked up it was very exciting and what was exciting about it was the demonstrations, particularly the
00:34:58 the demonstrations, particularly the summit demonstrations around things like the WTO or the G8s, were very much like carnivals. So as much as they were portrayed by the media as kind of violent riots, actually the reality of
00:35:09 violent riots, actually the reality of them was that there was always big educational events, there was a coming together of all sorts of amazing people from across the world and had a very strong art
00:35:20 very strong art layer. So essentially I was part of and I still consider myself to be part of essentially a layer of artists that that use politics in their work not in the sense necessarily of representing
00:35:31 sense necessarily of representing politics, although also I did that in terms of my design and posters and things like that, but thinking about art politically. And and again there was lots of very exciting thing groups in different
00:35:43 exciting thing groups in different countries doing different things and I was and I was essentially part of certainly part of that and that was a big for me that was a very important part, that creativity that there was there was a very important part of that and that's what
00:35:55 important part of that and that's what made it attractive to me to be involved. So your art and your activism are uh intrinsically linked. Yes, intertwined, yes.
00:36:05 yes. We've referred to the SWP and we will look in some detail at your involvement with Globalise Resistance. You've spoken of your time as in the SU president. What were you involved with in any other
00:36:16 What were you involved with in any other political or activist organization? the student union president of the Royal College of Art when I did my master's degree which I finished in 1998.
00:36:27 In your statement, uh you explained that in 2000, this is paragraph four, uh when I think you would have been about 30, you joined a demonstration in Prague against the IMF and the World
00:36:38 Prague against the IMF and the World Bank.
00:36:39 Bank. What was that event? So, that was the first There'd been a big demonstration in Seattle just previously where the activists and this kind of coalition that I described
00:36:51 this kind of coalition that I described had come together and had managed to shut down the meetings of the World Trade Organization through civil disobedience and also the kind of power of the trade unions in Seattle. And we were inspired by that in Europe. I mean,
00:37:03 were inspired by that in Europe. I mean, there'd been various other things that had happened before Seattle in Europe as well that had kind of built for these things, but Prague was really the first I would say the first expression in Europe of that movement of the anti-capitalist movement as I called it.
00:37:16 anti-capitalist movement as I called it. And that was a day again a number of days where there was a a counter-conference. So, at these at these events there was always a counter-conference that we put on against the World Bank and IMF that
00:37:27 against the World Bank and IMF that discussed why corporate and capitalist globalization was bad. And then there was a set of demonstrations. It was quite interesting because it obviously was in Prague, so it was in a at the time a just a post-Soviet kind of
00:37:39 at the time a just a post-Soviet kind of country.
00:37:40 country. And so, part of what we were doing when we were there was also actually going around bars and talking to people, local people, and explaining what we were doing as much as we were sort of demonstrating on the streets.
00:37:50 streets. And there was a big demonstration where again we tried to replicate the Seattle like or the Seattle model where essentially by sort of blockading the roads around the conference, we could hopefully disrupt the conference. We did
00:38:01 hopefully disrupt the conference. We did actually manage, I think, to shut down the conference a day early because we felt that the policies that the IMF and the World Bank were pursuing would increase inequality and increase poverty globally and that's obviously we
00:38:13 poverty globally and that's obviously we wanted to try and stop that. And in relation to those demonstrations in Prague, it's right, isn't it, that there was
00:38:20 there was a
00:38:21 a disorder and the Czech authorities deployed tear gas and water cannons against protesters. Yes. Yes. Were you there for that? I was I I was on the bridge, uh which led to the main um march. So, there was a
00:38:32 the main um march. So, there was a number
00:38:33 number Those demonstrations were generally organized so that there would be a number of cuz there was different politics involved in the protesters. There would be different groups, and there was a sort of plan essentially to besiege the the conference hall from different uh
00:38:45 conference hall from different uh routes, and depending on what your politics were, you'd be in the different parts of the march. And we were in one that was
00:38:52 that was with some Italian activists that went to the the bridge, and we got stopped at the bridge. And um it's where we were, essentially, it was a standoff. We had uh we had sort of essentially militarized police force with tanks in front of us, so there was
00:39:04 with tanks in front of us, so there was no way that we were going to be able to get through that. Um but yes, there was um uh some violence there, but I would say that was a result of um in my as it has been in my generally my experience of a
00:39:17 been in my generally my experience of a a sort of a militarized police force uh coming out to face protesters, and um and the ensuing kind of um situation happens out of those sort of situations. And lastly, in relation to your to your
00:39:29 And lastly, in relation to your to your visit to Prague, um did you attend that event as part of any group or movement, or I was in Yes, to be clear at the time, um and we mobilized a lot of people, but I was also part of the uh the Prague
00:39:41 also part of the uh the Prague organizing group in London, which was very small. It involved activists from different backgrounds. Um and that group was set up to you know, to mobilize people for Prague, and get people on that demonstration.
00:39:53 get people on that demonstration. Uh paragraph four still, on the third line of your statement, you explain that you later became involved with Globalize Resistance, and that you were involved with it from the outset. Were you involved with the
00:40:04 the outset. Were you involved with the formation? I was involved for the discussions that led up to the group, um but I was involved very quickly, like I I in the sense of before the first
00:40:15 I in the sense of before the first counter conference that we held at uh Guy Debord on Monday. So, can you assist us with dates, when? Uh that would have been um when would have that been? That would have been Well, it was after Prague and before Genoa, so it would
00:40:26 Prague and before Genoa, so it would have been early uh it would have been in the 2000, I think, the year 2000. the protests in Prague were around the 27th of September 2000. yes, it was after that and it was And so, it was in early 2001 then.
00:40:38 so, it was in early 2001 then. And what was it that drew you to Globalize Resistance? Well, so we um when we went to Prague, um what was kind of obvious was that there was a gap, so there was
00:40:49 was a gap, so there was um there was lots of NGO and church influence groups. There was a big movement at the time called Drop the Debt. Yeah. Where people were trying to address the the way that the banks essentially were keeping countries
00:41:00 essentially were keeping countries countries in the global south in debt bondage and wanted that addressed that the injustice of that addressed. And then there was a the kind of what you I suppose would be called the more hard left
00:41:10 left uh anarchists and various other people who obviously were just anti more broadly anti-capitalists. Um but they their orientation, and it's no disrespect to those activists, but their orientation was more that they wanted to
00:41:21 orientation was more that they wanted to take direct action and they would do it without necessarily uh worrying about involving lots and lots of people or trying to get lots They'll try, but you know, they would do it even if they didn't have lots of people. And we felt
00:41:32 didn't have lots of people. And we felt that um
00:41:33 that um certainly my understanding of Globalize Resistance was the idea that you try and bridge that gap so that you'd you'd have an organization that whose main aim was essentially to try and challenge corporate capital
00:41:44 challenge corporate capital globalization by educating people on the one hand, so by doing things like the counter-conference, and getting people to understand the issues, so sort of propaganda level, but then on the demonstrations as mobilized people for
00:41:55 demonstrations as mobilized people for the demonstrations, and if there was if there was civil disobedience organized, that you would participate that in that, although of course people in the group um still had the option to not do that. We would never force someone to do that,
00:42:07 We would never force someone to do that, but they if they wanted to take part in civil disobedience that was organized on the demonstrations, we'd do that. And the main aim for us was to involve as many people as possible and widen the movement and grow the movement because we believed Well, I I'm a democrat, so I
00:42:20 we believed Well, I I'm a democrat, so I believe that the only way we can we can actually change the world is by trying to involve the vast majority of people in society. So, that was the aim, and that it seemed to me Globalise Resistance was a a vehicle
00:42:31 me Globalise Resistance was a a vehicle to try and do that. And did that aim remain the same throughout the currency of Globalise Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. Mr. Nineham describes the um Globalise Resistance as seeking to bring some
00:42:42 Resistance as seeking to bring some coherence to anti-globalisation, anti-capitalist movement. Would you agree with that description? Yes, in the sense of the for the situation I described it in that there was a disparate um range of ideas. Um and I think we also wanted to try and
00:42:55 Um and I think we also wanted to try and strengthen the anti-capitalist sort of um angle on it. So, you know, obviously with the church groups, uh they were doing lots of great work, but they wouldn't necessarily be uh explicitly anti-capitalist even if the things they
00:43:06 anti-capitalist even if the things they were criticizing were capitalism. You know, it might be that you were looking for reforms from the government and that, you know, whereas we wanted to sharpen in the sense of the the sense of anti-capitalism and cuz as you know, the
00:43:17 anti-capitalism and cuz as you know, the the move was you may know that the move was called Global Justice Movement or Anti-globalisation Movement. There's lots of names for it. And so, we were sort of I think trying to strengthen the the the idea that it was an anti-capitalist movement essentially and
00:43:28 anti-capitalist movement essentially and that the and that the criticism people had
00:43:31 had Oh, sorry.
00:43:35 Sorry. I'm trying to I'm trying to get everything Um uh yeah, we're essentially trying to strengthen that aspect because it to us the logic of the criticism that everyone was making was anti-capitalist.
00:43:46 was making was anti-capitalist. And in relation to Globalise Resistance specifically, what what rather than the wider Globalise uh anti-globalisation, anti-capitalist movement, uh
00:43:55 uh from where did Globalise Resistance draw its
00:43:59 its uh membership? Say, for example, students, environmentalists. Yeah, anyone. Anyone. So, I I obviously we did the you know, I was involved in the lead-up to the to the first counter conference and I organized a art
00:44:11 conference and I organized a art workshop as part of that conference. Um so, it was anyone that we could get involved. I mean, we were completely open.
00:44:18 open. Um and it's one of the things I think about this inquiry, there was nothing that we were doing that was secret. You know, we wanted to involve as many people as possible and we did that in public. We organized public conferences. We organized loads
00:44:30 public conferences. We organized loads of meetings. You know, we we wanted you know, I if for me it's like I want people from my kind of background, my working-class background to be involved. I don't want it you know, it's it's no
00:44:41 I don't want it you know, it's it's no good if it just remains a a layer of activists. I'm not an activist for the sake of it, you know, it's not an identity. I want to not have to be an activist.
00:44:51 activist. So, so completely open membership model in in in practical terms, what sort of ratio
00:45:00 ratio were involved male to female within the organization? Um I don't know. I wouldn't know the statistics. I mean, I would have thought to think it was a fairly even spread, you know, I mean, we you know, we had all sorts of people
00:45:11 you know, we had all sorts of people come through the group and some people stayed for a long time and some people came in and out. Uh some people might join us when we're doing a specific thing.
00:45:20 thing. Um other people join us because they joined an action that they found inspiring and want to continue that. Other people, you know, we have people that are interested in journalism so they they were involved in the magazine that we made. Um you know, it it was all
00:45:32 that we made. Um you know, it it was all sorts of people. And and and I I you may already have answered this with your last question, but in terms of the mix of ethnicities, was there a mix of Yes, I would say there was definitely a good mix of you
00:45:43 there was definitely a good mix of you know, it it reflected the movement or reflected the society in the um uh you know, in the obviously, there was probably more white people than than non-white people, but certainly yes, there was all sorts of people
00:45:54 yes, there was all sorts of people involved. And of course, we also you know, it was a global movement so we had connections with people in the global south and when we did counter conferences, we often brought speakers from, you know, the the Asia or where it might be.
00:46:06 know, the the Asia or where it might be. And I think that was also one of the unique things about the group was that we did that, which I don't think other people did. Um and that was also about representing the various voices that there were.
00:46:17 the various voices that there were. Uh paragraph four, you you you say, "We believe that it's only through mass activity that we could hope to shift society in a more positive direction for the future." Mhm. I- I- I- I- Is that what you've
00:46:28 Mhm. I- I- I- I- Is that what you've already explained or do you want to add to that?
00:46:31 to that? So, you know, that doesn't mean that we wouldn't take part in civil disobedience that maybe didn't involve huge amounts of people. You know, I mean, so when we were on
00:46:40 were on some of the demonstrations, you say like in Evian, you know, we blockaded bridges in the hope that we could stop delegates getting to the meeting. That That inv- That involved a few thousand people. It wasn't like kind of, you know, but uh but, you know, I think we
00:46:51 know, but uh but, you know, I think we were partly responsible for putting the call out for the massive demonstration against the Iraq war in 2003, which I'm very proud of, which did mobilize to over nearly 2 million people. So, yes, it's not it's not I
00:47:02 people. So, yes, it's not it's not I think that's the difference between us maybe in the more anarchist-influenced groups is that we uh
00:47:08 uh That is the way If you look at history, that is the only way things have changed for the better for ordinary people, by trying to mobilize as many people as possible,
00:47:16 possible, and in doing that, creating the kind of movements and the demands, even if it's a demand on the state, that has made things better for people. You've mentioned your involvement the group's involvement with the Iraq war
00:47:28 group's involvement with the Iraq war demonstrations. Did Labour Lights Resistance support actions um proposed by other groups? I- I- would We would. It would depend on what what that prop- what those proposed
00:47:40 what what that prop- what those proposed things were. Um
00:47:42 Um what sort of groups would it support? Uh well, I don't know. I don't know what the question is kind of getting at really in terms of um we were a non-violent uh group, so let's say we wouldn't support anything that
00:47:53 say we wouldn't support anything that involved violence. Um but we would support broadly support all groups. So, if you were against the Iraq war, for instance, obviously we would broadly support you. You know, it's not I can't give you exact details
00:48:04 it's not I can't give you exact details cuz it would depend on who you were asking me who we supported, you know. But but the it you weren't exclusive um you weren't um exclusionary. You you would cooperate with other groups if Absolutely.
00:48:15 Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you know, we we may get to talk to you later, but we helped organize the European Social Forum in 2004, which had 35,000 people at Alexandra Palace, with organized with
00:48:26 at Alexandra Palace, with organized with the Mayor of London and all the main trade unions in London in in in where we hired out the Millennium Dome to put people up. That's how big it was. And that was the biggest gathering in this country as far as I'm aware of every
00:48:38 country as far as I'm aware of every type of
00:48:39 type of uh social movement, organization, NGO uh coming together. So, we would absolutely try and get everyone involved, regardless of whether I agreed with their their politics, you know, in terms
00:48:50 their their politics, you know, in terms of the money show or what I thought. When you joined Globalise Resistance, how was the organization being run? So, it had it had a steering committee. And who sat on that committee?
00:49:01 And who sat on that committee? Yes.
00:49:02 Yes. Yes. And um you know, set up by the SWP and there's no hiding about that, but obviously it wouldn't operate it wouldn't work if it was just SWP members. It needed to have a wide you
00:49:13 members. It needed to have a wide you know, we were trying to replicate the what was happening in the movement, right? And so um when we had our counter conferences, they they would end with an election to the steering committee. And out of that we would get different activists
00:49:25 we would get different activists involved. And as I say, the steering committee also changed over time. If I could just stop you there. We will come to the steering committee in in some detail in a little while, but for the moment
00:49:36 moment you've mentioned that there that there was that the movement um was set up by the SWP.
00:49:42 the SWP. Um
00:49:44 Um what sort of percentage of the steering committee
00:49:47 committee uh came from the SWP? Um I would say it probably varied. I mean there was steering committee. I mean to top of my head what would the steering committee have? Maybe 10 to 15
00:49:58 steering committee have? Maybe 10 to 15 members and out of that maybe uh,
00:50:02 uh, three or four would be SWP or maybe five. I don't know. I mean it's it varied over time. It wasn't like a a fixed number. But it wouldn't I'm certainly as an SWP member there would be no point as I say you in
00:50:14 there would be no point as I say you in doing something like that if it was just us, you know. So the whole point was to work with other people. Um, obviously in the hope that you would draw them towards Marxist politics but you know, but also you know, to build
00:50:25 you know, but also you know, to build the movement. As I say it's not it's not it wasn't um, uh, although that was an aspect of it, we wanted you know, we wanted to change the world. We wanted to bring people in and and and and you know, and involve as
00:50:37 and and and and you know, and involve as many people as possible. In his witness statement HN118 suggests that Globalize Resistance was effectively a puppet of the SWP and that Guy Taylor and Chris
00:50:48 the SWP and that Guy Taylor and Chris Nineham took their direction from the SWP Central Committee and Globalize Resistance had an office within the SWP headquarters albeit that was kept secret from the general GR activists.
00:51:00 from the general GR activists. Uh, what do you say to the suggestion that GR was a puppet organization run by the SWP? Well, I mean again I think this runs throughout his um, his evidence really.
00:51:10 really. The funny thing about that is it kind of actually gives a lot more um, it's like an idea that that um, that's just nonsense. So so for instance we were members but like you know, I did
00:51:22 we were members but like you know, I did the art in the group of Globalize. I I took no direction from anybody in the Central Committee of the SWP for the art direction I did. We would discuss it within the group. Um, and it was similar with the group. It it it was not Guy had
00:51:35 with the group. It it it was not Guy had huge amounts of autonomy to do what he we did not have an office at the SWP headquarters. We had an office in the Truman Brewery and then initially um, down near Whitechapel. Um,
00:51:45 Um, we were the money came from members subs and selling t-shirts and badges. Yeah. Um
00:51:51 Yeah. Um uh
00:51:52 uh there's it's a kind of um I think it's a bit of a police fantasy that the SWP is somehow like this all controlling organization that is kind of you know, we're just
00:52:03 that is kind of you know, we're just like this and doing what we're told. Um you know, the point is to let people um or to me uh certainly in United Front Work, the point is to let people uh develop United Fronts and that means
00:52:15 uh develop United Fronts and that means they're giving people autonomy. Because what you're trying to do is you're trying to create the a movement where everyone is a leader. And of course if if you have a situation thing where it's not that you wouldn't strategize as SWP members or um talk
00:52:28 strategize as SWP members or um talk about what you might direction you want the movement to go in. I'm being asked whether you could just slow your answers down a little bit because there's a lot for us stenographers to get down. Um
00:52:38 Um it's not that you know, as SWP members we wouldn't meet together and discuss what what we think would be good to happen. But again, we would that would be then part of a democratic with others. Um and that's what everyone
00:52:49 others. Um and that's what everyone does. That's politics. You know, if you're in the Labour Party, you do that. If you're in the Green Party, you do that. If you're in Friends of the Earth, you do that. That is what politics is is you try and think about from your perspective what you want to happen, but
00:53:01 perspective what you want to happen, but you can't make people do cuz if you if you do that, then again to me the organizations just don't work.
00:53:08 Thank you, Mr. Douglas. Um I'm going to ask you two more questions about office spaces. I think they are shorter questions and with shorter answers.
00:53:15 answers. Um
00:53:16 Um were the locations of the offices kept ever kept secret from the membership? No, I mean I think if you wanted to go I mean certainly I know Guy would have been more than happy to
00:53:27 been more than happy to and and it did happen. Loads of people come and help out in the office. Um I mean I don't I don't know I can't remember where the office was on the website. Um but it certainly you know, if you wanted to get involved in was no secret. You know, you would you we we'd
00:53:39 secret. You know, you would you we we'd want people to get involved. Okay, thank you. Uh, and we've seen there there are reports uh, we don't need to show it, but MPS 009839,
00:53:49 009839, so that's B17 of your bundle. Uh,
00:53:53 Uh, referring to some office arrangements of Globalise Resistance, and it says that in the second paragraph of that report that you were to be sharing that space for your own work as well.
00:54:04 for your own work as well. Yes. Yeah, there was a point So, so you would have been present in the office. where I um, brought my computer down to better work in the office as well. Thank you. HN118
00:54:17 When did you first meet Simon Wellings, HN118? I don't actually recall the first time I met him, actually. I have to say. Can I show you, please, MPS 307994,
00:54:28 Can I show you, please, MPS 307994, so that's document B1 in your bundle?
00:54:32 This report, which appears to be split into two, with the second half being MPS 30799
00:54:40 30799 8, B2 in the bundle, sir. Um, but we were going to stay with this document for the moment. Um, starting at page two, please.
00:54:53 Here, in the top left-hand corner, you can see there's the date, the 8th of February, 2002. And now, overleaf, please, to page three, at the head of that page.
00:55:05 three, at the head of that page. Okay.
00:55:05 Okay. First paragraph, Globalise Resistance at the WEF demonstrations in New York. The Globalise Globalise Resistance delegation, which traveled to New York on Wednesday, 30th January, 2002, to
00:55:17 on Wednesday, 30th January, 2002, to attend the protest surrounding the World Economic Forum, WEF, was made up of the following six individuals. Now, I'm going to go on to that point, but just so you know, I'm not going to ask you about anything any any of the activity
00:55:28 about anything any any of the activity which took place in New York. That's outside our terms of reference. But I would like to just touch upon a few points of relevance. Mhm.
00:55:37 So, halfway down page three, we can see that uh Guy Taylor is named as person number one.
00:55:47 one. And then, below that, there's a under item two, null SNU. Now, SNU is surname unknown. Okay. There's a physical description.
00:55:59 There's a physical description. And then, at the second part second paragraph of this block of text, "He is articulate and intelligent, a Marxist and member of the Socialist Workers Party
00:56:09 Party for past eight years. He's also long-term member of GR." Some details about your work. "Uh responsible for much of the graphic design of GR's leaflets, flyers, and
00:56:21 design of GR's leaflets, flyers, and posters, and web pages. Keen sense of humor with a personable and likable nature. Excellent communication skills." It's a nice review, isn't it? Then, there's a privacy redaction, to
00:56:33 Then, there's a privacy redaction, to which we will return later. Uh explains you've been living in Amsterdam, and then at the end, "Very close to and trusted by Guy Taylor. Was also present at Genoa."
00:56:44 also present at Genoa." Uh now,
00:56:46 Uh now, I take it that the description of you, even though at this stage of the report, doesn't say you. good description. I'm very pleased with it.
00:56:52 it. And you're very pleased very pleased with the description. Uh
00:56:57 Uh in so far as all the text that isn't redacted for privacy is set out, how accurate a description is it? That's all true. Yeah.
00:57:05 And now, I think you suggested your membership of the SWP was from 1996. So, not quite the eight years that says here, but but otherwise, broadly broadly accept as a good
00:57:16 broadly broadly accept as a good description. Now, this is the earliest reporting we have where you appear to be named. Was it
00:57:26 Was it and you may your earlier indication may may mean that you can't answer this, but was it during this trip that you first met HM118? Oh, I I certainly remember him on the I mean, I've got photographs of him where
00:57:38 mean, I've got photographs of him where he actually helped pop some I put some posters up at the start of one of the demonstrations, which Simon helped me with quite helpfully. And um But, did you know him before you I'm not sure. I couldn't say. I mean,
00:57:49 I'm not sure. I couldn't say. I mean, it's quite possible that this was the first time that I'd met him properly. Um I don't know. Uh please could we show MPS0721966?
00:58:00 So, that is document C8 and page three of that document, please.
00:58:15 The third paragraph from the foot of the page, please. Starts, "The big step to gain access to the into the inner sanctum came in January 2002." This is a description of uh from HM118,
00:58:27 This is a description of uh from HM118, which we understand he gave to um Operation
00:58:31 Operation "He, 118, was in a lift with Taylor and another male, and they were discussing the WEF in New York. They were They were aware he had a job and income, so suggested that he could
00:58:42 and income, so suggested that he could get the money together to go to New York to the demonstrations." Could that other person in the lift be you?
00:58:49 you? It could have been, yes. But, no specific recollection? say I've no I definitely remember on the New York trip, obviously, um and as I say, um being with him, talking with him. As I say, I've got photographs of him, which I believe I've given to the inquiry.
00:59:01 I believe I've given to the inquiry. But, as I say, I've got no recollection of meeting him for the first time. If we could go over the page now, please, to page four and the third paragraph of that page. Uh "On his return from New York, he,
00:59:14 Uh "On his return from New York, he, again 118, quite quickly became one of the leading lights in Globalise Resistance. He continued to feed intelligence back and reported lots." Uh
00:59:24 Uh what's your view on the suggestion that upon return to New York 118 quickly became one of the leading lights in GR. I think again that's a part of his um inflated sense of his self-importance.
00:59:36 inflated sense of his self-importance. There was Simon was a nice guy, not nice now that I know what he was doing, but nice guy when at the time. Um he um
00:59:46 Um he um wasn't particularly um what I would say a kind of much of a leader even if we that would be what we would try and make everybody. Um so he certainly
00:59:57 everybody. Um so he certainly I mean he was involved obviously on the steering committee and that because obviously what he was doing, but um but I wouldn't call him a leading light. He was not He wasn't someone that I would have considered um So for instance, you know, he would never which again is obviously makes
01:00:09 never which again is obviously makes sense now. He would never generally kind of get involved in if we had a conference by making political points in the conference so that which is what I If you were a leading light, that's what I would expect people to do. You said in
01:00:20 I would expect people to do. You said in your witness statement um I don't have the reference to hand, but that he he he avoided getting involved in the education aspect of Yeah, he definitely I I can recall for instance we had a counter conference in Camden one year
01:00:32 Camden one year and I was on the ticket desk. And for me it wasn't as important to be in the education part cuz obviously I'd been in lots of meetings whatever, so I was on the ticket and he came on the ticket desk with me and obviously now I know
01:00:43 desk with me and obviously now I know that that was probably a a way to cuz what we had like have a 2-hour conversation about my life where he get all sorts of information and I don't I can't really recall him ever particularly making any
01:00:54 particularly making any um
01:00:54 um strong political points or you know, like intervening in a meeting or like I say in a way that I If you were a leading light, regardless of whether you were an SWP member or from other things, you know, we had some very um
01:01:07 you know, we had some very um uh strong activists in Global Resistance that weren't in the SWP and they very much made, you know, um spoke for us in the in in terms of things abroad um and
01:01:18 in in terms of things abroad um and that's what I think a leading light is. It's someone that, you know, leads. You know,
01:01:22 know, Was there
01:01:24 Was there um any noticeable increase in his involvement with Globalise Resistance Well, he was he was obviously a consistent person. I mean, you know, he Sorry. So, he's consi- was he consistent or was the Yeah, yeah, he was he was
01:01:36 or was the Yeah, yeah, he was he was obviously he he was and until we kicked him out, he was definitely involved. You know, he was at the steering committee meetings. Um you know, we'd be on demonstrations or you know, whatever. You know what I mean? That it was certainly um I knew him and he was a
01:01:47 certainly um I knew him and he was a fri- I considered him a friend. It was not he wasn't just an acquaintance, you know. Is your recollection that there was a greater involvement as he spent more time with Globalise Resistance or did it sort of plateau? No, no, no. I
01:01:58 did it sort of plateau? No, no, no. I think he was kind of consistently involved until we kicked him out. At paragraph 28 of your statement, you refer to HN118 made of making a friend of you.
01:02:09 of you. What do you mean by that phrase? Well, I mean, I never went to his flat in flat inverted commas and he never came to my house. It wasn't like we were friends like my friends with Guy, but he
01:02:22 friends like my friends with Guy, but he was an activist friend. So, what I mean by that is that you know, we would socialize when we were at after you know, at the pub. Um I had lots of discussions with him. He was I would have considered him a friend. Um
01:02:34 friend. Um Meals together? Um well, you know, when we were in New York, obviously we went for meals, you know, as a group. Um you know, that kind of thing. Like it's not it's not I mean, that's obviously quite common in activism that you have
01:02:45 quite common in activism that you have lots of people that you might meet when you're doing activism that you don't necessarily um meet up socially all the time with. He's not someone I ever met up socially on my own with. Um but I considered him a friend, yes.
01:02:57 considered him a friend, yes. What what I'm trying to get at is did you feel that there was a greater connection with him than um a- than any other person within I
01:03:08 um a- than any other person within I don't mean he's the most important person, but you know, was was it more of a friendship than you had with other GR activists? Um I wouldn't say more. I mean, I think the thing is about I mean, one of the nice things about doing activism is you
01:03:20 nice things about doing activism is you create bonds with people through, obviously, you know, feeling that you're doing something that matters and is important and and, you know, he was like that. He was, you know, he was someone that we were doing things with. Um, like
01:03:33 that we were doing things with. Um, like I said, when we went to New York, he you know, I was putting posters up in the street and he was helping me do that. Yeah, so it was that I wouldn't say he's not he wouldn't be he wouldn't be classed in the same league as I someone like I would with Guy or some of
01:03:44 someone like I would with Guy or some of the other people in group that I I'm properly I'd say properly not best friends with, you know? But yes, he was not um, he wasn't just an acquaintance that you know, that I met occasionally. He was a good friend through being involved with Global Eyes. Understood.
01:03:56 involved with Global Eyes. Understood. And how frequently would you say you saw him during the time you knew each other? Uh, well, I suppose quite a lot during that era because we did a lot of stuff. So, I couldn't give you a exact amount of things, but I mean, we
01:04:07 exact amount of things, but I mean, we were doing stuff um, you know, all the time in that in that era. I'd like to turn now to look at some of H 118's reporting on Global Eyes Resistances approach to activism.
01:04:21 Resistances approach to activism. Um,
01:04:23 Um, we'll look at a selection of reports in due course, but a number of reports refer to Global Eyes Resistance being involved in direct action. Reasonably succinctly, if if if if you can,
01:04:34 can, what do you understand by the term direct action? So, for us, we were I say non-violent direct action. So, that means
01:04:42 means that, you know, as as I mentioned earlier, we might uh, try and block a bridge up with people uh, to stop uh, delegates getting to a meeting or um,
01:04:53 to a meeting or um, you know, that that kind of that's direct action to me. It's not you're not trying to petition the government. You're doing you're sitting down in the road to to to to directly uh, in this case stop a delegate from getting to a hotel or whatever. And obviously, that
01:05:05 hotel or whatever. And obviously, that comes with risks. You know that that might uh, bring the police to you or whatever, but um, but that's you know, the biggest direct action we were involved with was in Genoa where um
01:05:17 Genoa where um the G8 had built a 5-m high steel fence around the entire old town of Genoa where even the people that lived and they called that the red zone and the Italians that lived within that zone, the ordinary Italians, had to have
01:05:29 the ordinary Italians, had to have permits to get into their house, to get into their houses, to get through gates and we decided as a movement to challenge that fence. No, so not hurting people but challenging objects. 50,000 people did that in Genoa. So, so it was mass mass
01:05:41 that in Genoa. So, so it was mass mass civil disobedience. But in terms of sorry, and returning to in the UK, if I may. Um
01:05:49 Um the particular flavor of direct action direct action that you that GR supported was non-violent direct action. Absolutely, that's right. Yeah.
01:05:59 There was never We never We would never and did never and would never advocate violence against anybody. And
01:06:09 And did you find it to be effective? Sometimes
01:06:13 Sometimes Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I mean that goes back to the it not effective? Well, in the sense of not if you didn't have enough people, that's why we try and involve as many people as possible because the because those sort of things do rely on numbers and but it doesn't it
01:06:25 do rely on numbers and but it doesn't it doesn't mean that if you didn't have the numbers, you wouldn't necessarily try and
01:06:29 and do something like like I say, block a road or something, but you know, but obviously that's so that the orientation was to try and get as many people to do that as possible. Mr. Taylor has suggested that
01:06:40 Taylor has suggested that um there is a tendency within the documents that he's seen for HM118 to confuse direct action with violent action.
01:06:49 action. Mhm.
01:06:49 Mhm. From the documents that you yourself have considered, would you agree with that summary? Yes, I I think that I think all the way through his document I think he tries to use direct action as a code for violence
01:07:02 use direct action as a code for violence or or tries to imply that we're the most up for it, you know, that kind of thing or we agreed to fight with the police. And as far as you're concerned, there's a very distinct There's there's a clear distinction
01:07:13 There's there's a clear distinction between those two concepts. Absolutely, because because nonviolent civil disobedience is not uh it's nonviolent. And so, you know, as I say, we're not naive. That can then bring the forces of
01:07:25 naive. That can then bring the forces of state
01:07:26 state down upon you because they don't want you blocking a road or whatever it might be, right? But But it's we there's nothing to be gained from violence. We're we're We're protesting against the violent
01:07:37 We're protesting against the violent system that the people who head it up start wars, you know, we we are we are trying to do something different and create a world that's at peace. And so, there's no sense in which direct action, in terms of what we mean
01:07:49 direct action, in terms of what we mean it, has anything to do with violence, you know? And but I will say that we would defend other activists if they were attacked. We would defend people's right to protest and defend,
01:08:01 people's right to protest and defend, you know, if they were attacked by the police.
01:08:03 police. We would absolutely defend people and and be public in our defense of that of their of their right to take direct action and So So, if I've understood your Sorry to speak over you.
01:08:15 your Sorry to speak over you. If I've understood your evidence correctly, Globalise Resistance didn't plan to use violence as part of its work. No, because that would be Did Sorry. Sorry, go on. Go on. To the best of your knowledge,
01:08:28 To the best of your knowledge, were members of Globalise Resistance ever violent when taking part in demonstrations? No. No, never. Did you ever see Agent 118 involved in violence when with Globalise Resistance? No, but I don't know if we're going to
01:08:39 No, but I don't know if we're going to get onto this. I mean, there's obviously I make a couple of claims about the fact that he was an agent provocateur, yeah, okay. Um No, and and also it's clear that if we Say if we were on a demonstration and someone that we knew
01:08:52 demonstration and someone that we knew did some kind of violent act, we would we would obviously talk to that person, you know, we would not That would not be something that we would accept because the problem is that that from our perspective, and I think from
01:09:03 perspective, and I think from actually from the group's perspective, the problem with that is that that then brings that actually undermines because it brings more violence down on you, you know, if you if you go down that route. And and as I say, I'm I want I want to
01:09:14 And and as I say, I'm I want I want to involve them. I'm a democrat. I'm not trying to change make change through murdering people, you know. Please
01:09:22 Please or whatever. Sorry. Please, could we display MPS 3008523? That's document B5, sir. Now, this is a report dated the 9th of April 2002 about Globalise Resistance in
01:09:34 April 2002 about Globalise Resistance in relation to a protest at the Royal Albert Hall where Henry Kissinger was due to address the Institute of Directors. Page one sets out an over
01:09:45 Page one sets out an over seemingly sets out an overview of Guy Taylor's planning of the protest. Paragraph two, we can see refers to an intention to try to prevent Mr. Kissinger and delegates entering the
01:09:56 Kissinger and delegates entering the building through a series of mass sit-downs and blockades formed by people linking arms across the access roads. First question, do you recall this protest?
01:10:06 protest? Yes, I do, absolutely. And it's right that you were involved, isn't it? Yes.
01:10:10 Yes. Does this report accurately set out Globalise Resistance plans for that event?
01:10:14 event? think it I mean, I can't remember the exact discussions at the time, but yes, I think it would have been our dream scenario. I mean, it didn't happen in the in reality. If we could bring up the final paragraph on page
01:10:26 bring up the final paragraph on page one.
01:10:28 one. This refers to Mr. Taylor making an assessment that if policing follows a traditional form with an initial light touch of regular uniformed officers manning the pens or barriers, then it should be possible to topple or leap
01:10:40 should be possible to topple or leap over any obstacles. This could only be achieved in a mass rush followed by the occupation of relevant areas before any mobile reserve can be brought into play. Do you recall there being any intention to topple or leap over obstacles at this
01:10:52 to topple or leap over obstacles at this protest? No specific. I mean, what I I say about this as well is that you know, in the end we had probably a few hundred people doing this. As I said earlier, I was at the Royal College of Art already a pre few years
01:11:04 College of Art already a pre few years previously as you know, the Royal College of Art is to the side of the Royal Albert Hall. I tried to go into the Royal Royal College of Art actually moved to see if we could do a banner drop from the building and the security wouldn't let me in even though they knew me.
01:11:16 me in even though they knew me. And there were police snipers on the roof of the Royal College of Art for the for right? So the idea and I knew that when I went down in the morning they were stationed on the on the roof. So again,
01:11:28 So again, even if it was true that we plan tried to plan some rush of offense knowing that there were police snipers on the roof,
01:11:35 roof, we would have not done it. You know what I mean? What I remember from that demonstration is that we had the big puppet of Kissinger. We had someone dressed up as a judge apologies to sir as Guy said the other day.
01:11:47 day. We did a fake trial of Henry Kissinger and then there was a pen across the road where the police held the sort of majority of protesters which I got moved to and then they they got hold
01:11:59 got moved to and then they they got hold of Guy quite roughly and and barged him across the road in a kind of show-off way I think to to to harass him I would say, you know, and that was it really. It was kind of
01:12:11 and that was it really. It was kind of like, you know, it obviously would have loved it if there was lots of people but um
01:12:16 um but it that was the sort of scale of that demonstration. Turning back to the planning phase for a second, the
01:12:25 the how involved was H and 118 with the planning of this event? I again it's very hard for me to recollect. I mean if he
01:12:32 he if as I presume he was at this time on the steering committee he would have been involved in the in the discussions and the
01:12:39 and the preparations for these things but I can't say
01:12:42 can't say you know, exactly what he did or didn't do.
01:12:45 do. it predates his time on the steering committee. Mr. Mr. Towell will correct me if I'm wrong on that. We'll come back again I I can't recall him being there on the day, but that doesn't mean to say that he was wasn't there. Okay.
01:12:57 that he was wasn't there. Okay. On page two, there's a
01:13:00 there's a a suggestion in the first paragraph that you and Mr. Taylor were by far the most enthusiastic supporters of a direct action direct action strategy for the Kissinger
01:13:11 action strategy for the Kissinger protest.
01:13:13 protest. And in your statement at paragraph nine, we don't need to go to it. You say that your and Mr. Taylor's views were no different to others in the group. There was an appetite for civil disobedience, all of which was peaceful, and that you were never arrested.
01:13:26 and that you were never arrested. So, I take it you agree that you were in favor of a direct action strategy for the Kissinger protest, but along the lines of direct action as you've outlined. Well, I don't I must say the thing I'd say about that is that
01:13:37 thing I'd say about that is that we would still have had a discussion about what we thought would be possible. So, yes, I was absolutely in favor of taking direct action. Um enthusiastic to do it if we could
01:13:48 Um enthusiastic to do it if we could pull it off. But whether around that protest,
01:13:52 protest, um
01:13:53 um we would realistically have be able to As I like to say, we wouldn't I've never been arrested. Uh and I we certainly wouldn't put other activists in a situation where they risked arrest without preparation. And I
01:14:07 risked arrest without preparation. And I think that we probably knew that that protest was not going to be that big. Um I mean, I think this is the sort of thing about a lot of these this reporting. The scale of these of lot of these events outside of the bigger summit
01:14:19 events outside of the bigger summit demonstrations are so small that the idea that the police couldn't have controlled them without having people spy on us is ridiculous. You know, that that that was the police
01:14:31 You know, that that that was the police who came down easily contained us. And when And in that situation, I am not going to get into a situation where I particularly risk arrest because it's just not worth it. It's not worth my my It'd be a waste of my time. It would
01:14:43 It'd be a waste of my time. It would take away from activism. Thank you very much. That's That's is helpful. You mentioned that you were not arrested. Can I just confirm, are you saying you were never You have never been arrested? been arrested. I've I've never been uh uh charged with any crime whatsoever.
01:14:58 While we still have this report on the screen, could we go to the final paragraph of page two, please?
01:15:08 Um Thank you. This This plan will be refined in the next 10 days or so, and it's possible that GA will seek to hold some form of defensive training for activists at any space or
01:15:19 training for activists at any space or venue they manage to secure over the weekends of 13th and 14th or 20th and 21st of April. Um was defensive training for the activists planned? I mean again this to me got to be
01:15:30 I mean again this to me got to be fantasy. I mean we're not talking about, as I say, going to Genoa or somewhere where you know, there was hundreds of groups involved. We knew that it was what the plans were. They
01:15:41 that it was what the plans were. They were published, too. This was a small protest outside the Royal Albert Hall. Yes, we wish we could have So, even if it was just holding hands around the Royal Albert Hall and surrounding it would have been great, you know, but
01:15:52 would have been great, you know, but there was we just wouldn't have had the It was a weekday as far as I remember. Um and so obviously that also means that you're not And we would not um we certainly wouldn't There wouldn't be the What We're not an army. I mean, you know, the
01:16:03 We're not an army. I mean, you know, the idea you'd have defensive training for something like that seems to me completely ridiculous. So, I take it wasn't planned, didn't take place. I've got no recollection of that. I mean, as all I remember, as I say, is turning up to the thing try going to the
01:16:15 turning up to the thing try going to the Royal College of Art to see if I could get the cheekily drop a banner from the building, not being allowed in by the security, being told there were snipers on the roof, seeing snipers on the roof, coming back around to the front, the the fake trial of
01:16:27 to the front, the the fake trial of Henry being done on the pavement, and then the police sort of pushing a load of us into the pen across the road, and just and in the end and then, you know, a few hours later it all dissipates.
01:16:41 Um just preempting it, if you could remember to keep your tempo a little slower. Sorry, yes. Um
01:16:53 Finally, on the Kissinger protest for the moment, please could we bring up MPS 3008528,
01:16:59 3008528, which is document C2, sir. Now, this is a report specifically uh on your involvement with the Kissinger protest Mhm.
01:17:09 Mhm. um dated the 9th of April 2002. So, we see at paragraph one, Noel Douglas of GR has already prepared a number of posters and images to use during the Kissinger protest.
01:17:21 during the Kissinger protest. Um he's planning to to hastily erect a number of poster runs at the demonstration. This is a tactic that he apparently used successfully at the WEF protest in New York earlier this year.
01:17:33 protest in New York earlier this year. Paragraph two then describes the mechanics of the poster run. And at the end of the fifth line, it states
01:17:42 states Although this is obviously a very simple action, it does apparently have an impact out of all proportion to the effort and cost involved. Douglas is a gifted graphics artist and his computer-generated imagery always
01:17:53 his computer-generated imagery always provokes a strong reaction. Paragraph three, this activity also has the advantage that it can be done anywhere where there are two available lamp posts or poles. So, if you were
01:18:04 lamp posts or poles. So, if you were denied access to a particular area, it really doesn't matter. Douglas also takes some comfort from the fact he considers that the activity breaches no law and so is and so he is likely to be
01:18:16 law and so is and so he is likely to be left alone by police while doing it. Um
01:18:22 Um in relation to planning poster runs, is that accurate? Is that what you were saying to me? it's obviously as I say as I mentioned, Simon
01:18:30 Simon helped me put the posters up in the WEF, so that's obviously how he got such an insight to the technique. I mean, again, I mean, it's just I don't know. This is just laughable, isn't it? I mean what what is it what is what is being exposed
01:18:42 what is it what is what is being exposed here? The fact that I'm a fact an effective poster designer and I put posters up in the street. You know, I remember that protest I did. I think I remember portrayed Henry Kissinger as
01:18:53 Kissinger as King Kong and Mark Klein in the Albert Royal Albert Hall. Uh you know, I mean I Um you know, yes, I did that and I'm and I'll and I'll put public uh posters up in a public space.
01:19:04 in a public space. I've not There was no damage to any equipment. Was Was the fact that it didn't cause any damage significant to you as this suggests?
01:19:10 suggests? Well, yes, obviously you know, that helps because you're not cuz you're not um you know, you can't be accused of vandalism or anything, can you, you know? So, but again, it was to it's to create a
01:19:19 create a a kind of atmosphere and and um you know, as I say, I I I It seems to me sort of the bizarre this sort of reporting that you know, someone is being paid to report this back to the Metropolitan
01:19:31 to report this back to the Metropolitan Police as if it's some sort of um
01:19:36 What's what I don't know. What's the issue?
01:19:40 issue? Um how how typical was this tool as Yeah, I do I would do it a lot. I mean, you know, as I say, I'm part of a alongside the Global Resistance work, you know, I was an artist activist who
01:19:51 you know, I was an artist activist who you know, I've been in biennials with my artwork and uh around the world, you know, I mean uh and and this was part of what a lot of groups did in different cities in the world. Things similar
01:20:02 cities in the world. Things similar things to this, you know. Um and as we know, you know, we're in a propaganda battle. So, you know, you make propaganda and obviously if you I mean, one of the reasons I do this or have done this on demonstrations is because
01:20:13 done this on demonstrations is because often people might be demonstrating and they might be surrounded by riot police or something. And so, ordinary people walk past and think, "Oh, like what what's going on here? I don't want to get involved." cuz they see the police.
01:20:24 get involved." cuz they see the police. Whereas if I've got a big poster that says Starbucks hasn't paid tax in Britain since 2009, then at least they get the political message, you know, and so that for me that's the point of it is to make public
01:20:37 that's the point of it is to make public propaganda that helps to um explain the politics of what we're doing to people. Thank you. Um I'd like to look now, please, at the demonstration outside Selfridges department store, which took
01:20:48 Selfridges department store, which took place on the 3rd of August 2002. Um
01:20:53 Um I I take it you recall this demonstration. do. This is This is And and why was this demonstration called? So this was because there was some from what I remember Israeli goods of some kind were
01:21:04 remember Israeli goods of some kind were uh
01:21:04 uh being sold in Selfridges or goods that were produced in the occupied territories in Palestine, from what I remember.
01:21:10 remember. And was this demonstration organized by Globalise Resistance or by other groups? I don't think it was organized by us. I think it might have been one of the Palestine groups. I I can't say for
01:21:21 Palestine groups. I I can't say for sure, though, so I'm not sure. Um certainly a report we will show in a minute shows that there were members of Rhythms of Resistance and the Wombles are said to have been present. I don't know if the Wombles were. I mean,
01:21:32 don't know if the Wombles were. I mean, there certainly were definitely people who were interested in the Palestine issue. I mean, I can't remember the exact makeup. Rhythms of Resistance, I again, I can't remember. All I remember is the bit I was on where we were
01:21:43 is the bit I was on where we were we tried to get through one of the doorways and I can talk about that more in a minute. I presume you'll come on to that, so.
01:21:48 that, so. And and what had been your overall plan for the day as Globalise Resistance before you got there? Uh I can't remember the overall plan from Globalise Resistance because again, this sort of this is where the sort of um gives us a little bit more credit than
01:22:00 gives us a little bit more credit than maybe than we're due in the sense of I think this was again another one of those demonstrations where a couple of us thought it'd be good to turn up to and be involved in. Um there were you know, it wasn't like we were taking training for it. Um
01:22:12 we were taking training for it. Um uh um and certainly for me it was just that
01:22:16 that you know, you wanted to highlight the fact that Selfridges were selling Israeli goods. So for instance, if we had got into the store, you would have just caused commotion around
01:22:25 around where those goods were like and and, you know,
01:22:28 know, uh whether it's through shouting or something like that, you know. Um
01:22:33 Um what was the mood of the demonstration? Um
01:22:38 Well, the end the say the bit I recall was when we were in the entrance of the doorway
01:22:44 doorway and as I say, I do really remember this, so I can I'm, you know, saying this with absolute clarity, because Simon was in front of me and the security guards were blocking up the door
01:22:55 the door and lots of people were trying to sort of push in and there was just a sort of standoff. Um and but I can't recall again, it's sort of one of those things I don't really think there were huge
01:23:06 I don't really think there were huge amounts of people out on the street outside, you know, I don't I again I think it was a very small And what was the police presence like? Um well, so obviously I had Simon in front of me, um and
01:23:18 and what I recall I can remember, there was a there was a police officer that used to film us on every demonstration. I can't remember his name now, we all knew his name cuz it was a bit of a joke he'd turn up with his video I'm not sure it's material for our purposes. Yeah, sorry,
01:23:29 material for our purposes. Yeah, sorry, no, but I'm just I'm just saying what I'm saying is because he was in the corner
01:23:33 corner of the doorway, I can remember this. Simon was in front of me and Simon was really going for it, he was like, "Come on, come on, come on." And he was sort of performatively the reason why I'm talking about the video guys cuz he was performatively
01:23:44 video guys cuz he was performatively sort of putting his hand up to block the video camera as we were trying to go in and again, it's one of these situations where
01:23:52 where you know, after a while you realize you're not going to get in and I'm not going to
01:23:56 going to I wouldn't have risked arrest for something like that, so I I my I remember I just pulled back, you know, but as I say, I don't remember there being lots of people. Yeah, you in your statement say that, um Simon played a direct role, this is paragraph 12, we
01:24:08 direct role, this is paragraph 12, we don't need to bring it up, but Simon played a direct role in trying to create a hostile and aggressive atmosphere against his police. Yeah, no, yeah, definitely, definitely, uh you know, he was he was the one kind of just being what I would call an agent provocateur.
01:24:19 what I would call an agent provocateur. He He he was deliberately being kind of more um he was like come on come on everyone you know. Perhaps we could bring up
01:24:28 bring up MPS 3009794 so that's document B14 in the bundle. Which is a report by HM118 dated 6th of August 2002 so just a few
01:24:40 dated 6th of August 2002 so just a few days after the event. And paragraph two your named as being present at the event along with Guy Taylor and some others some of whom are redacted for privacy.
01:24:51 redacted for privacy. And if we look at paragraph three this really this reads privacy was in a particularly belligerent move and involved himself fully in the assorted pushing and shoving that occurred as police struggled to keep protesters from
01:25:02 police struggled to keep protesters from entering the store. He was also central to the to the effort to breach security at the main front entrance when uniformed officers were momentarily distracted as one of the Wombles attempted to get in through a door to the left of the building.
01:25:15 door to the left of the building. I take it from what you've described that you do recall protesters pushing and shoving the police to gain access to the store. the police it was the there was there was you know there was a bunch of people
01:25:26 was you know there was a bunch of people in the doorway and from it might have been police in the door I can't remember all the security.
01:25:32 security. Um
01:25:33 Um but but like I say this sort of I mean to me this what he's describing here sounds like his own behavior. You know
01:25:40 You know I'm afraid. Yes and you say your paragraph 12 your statement that he was in front of you and was by far the most enthusiastic pusher trying to whip up the activists. Yes absolutely.
01:25:51 the activists. Yes absolutely. And then you say as we say as I've already said that he was trying to create a hostile and aggressive atmosphere. Um
01:25:59 Um when you say he was the most enthusiastic pusher Yeah absolutely I mean like I mean I you know we could debate aggressively I mean like he wasn't punching people but you know he was the one that was trying to whip people up or
01:26:11 one that was trying to whip people up or kind of whip that um
01:26:14 um you know like being really actively like I say like come on, come on, you know. Yes, you described that in your statement him saying come on. Who Who was he saying that to? To to come on to to us. I mean, you
01:26:26 To to come on to to us. I mean, you know, the
01:26:27 know, the the the people around us, yeah, you know.
01:26:29 know. Sorry. The the to me and to the others around him, you know. encouragement come on. Uh not goading the police. Uh not No, not the I didn't think goading the police. I think encouraging the activists to to push through. And
01:26:41 the activists to to push through. And you've already explained that he was blocking the view of the police surveillance. Yes, he was doing this. He was sort of jumping up. And the police guy was filming us in the corner, and he was sort of jumping up and trying to put his hand in front of the lens. I I
01:26:53 his hand in front of the lens. I I really remember, I don't know why, maybe because whatever, you know, but I can really picture it even now him doing that.
01:27:01 that. Now, Mr. Taylor's evidence on Monday was that
01:27:03 that HM118's conduct was such that he had to have a word to him after the event about his conduct. Do you Do you recall that? I don't recall that, no. No, I have to say apart from that apart from the
01:27:14 say apart from that apart from the incident I described, I don't recall a lot else about that that day or that demonstration. But I get the impression from your evidence that you feel that his behavior that day went beyond what you what you
01:27:25 that day went beyond what you what you considered would have been sensible. Well, yeah, I mean, it goes back to what I was saying earlier about like, you know,
01:27:30 know, choosing your moments in the sense like, you know, we're not uh
01:27:36 you know, we're not going to put people in situations that are knowingly going to put people into difficulty and uh we we want to you've got to sort of balance like what
01:27:48 you've got to sort of balance like what you're trying to achieve against what, you know, what the cost might be, you know, in terms of like we don't want we're not that we're not trying to, you know, our aim isn't to get people arrested. Our aim is to try and change
01:28:00 arrested. Our aim is to try and change the politics. So, you have to sort of strategize about what is possible in a certain situation. I mean, obviously, events take their own life when things happen and you know, when you're on protest, people
01:28:11 you know, when you're on protest, people turn up that you don't know or whatever it might be, but yes, it would I can't recall guy having a conversation with him afterwards, but we would certainly have discussed what happened afterwards for sure. Moving on from the Selfridges
01:28:24 for sure. Moving on from the Selfridges protest, please could we show MPS 2010638
01:28:30 2010638 sir, document C6. At this, as you will see when it comes up, is a report dated the 11th of October 2002. And it concerns a protest outside
01:28:41 And it concerns a protest outside Downing Street on the 28th of September 2002.
01:28:47 The report refers to what is described as a spin-off group Artists Against the War. Were you part of that group? Uh to some extent. I mean, not actively particularly involved in it, but I knew the people involved in it. Were you
01:28:59 the people involved in it. Were you present at Downing Street as part of that group? I mean, this is weird cuz I don't really recall this. I could have been. Um I certainly didn't initiate a smoke bomb. I'm not saying there wasn't a smoke bomb that was let off,
01:29:11 smoke bomb that was let off, but that wasn't me. Um
01:29:15 Um Uh
01:29:16 Uh and that's all I can say about that really. Um I mean, it's as I say, it wasn't me that let off the smoke smoke bomb. Was the group Artists Against the War affiliated to Globalize Resistance in any way? Uh affiliation is too strong
01:29:28 in any way? Uh affiliation is too strong a word. I mean, you know, they're a bunch of artists that kind of got together
01:29:32 together uh to be against the war. They were not like paying any money or Yes. You know, I mean, it was just it was some of them were friends of us. Some of them weren't people we knew. I mean, it was that kind of thing. But not a formal group, not a
01:29:44 But not a formal group, not a No. No, I mean, you know, very I mean, it didn't last very long. I mean, very loose
01:29:48 loose group of people that, you know, had come together because of the war. Um at
01:29:54 Um at page one
01:29:55 page one uh of this document on the the third paragraph, if we could bring that up, please.
01:30:04 It says it was Privacy Snew and Douglas who initiated the smoke bomb outside Downing Street during the big anti-war demonstration on Saturday, 28th
01:30:15 anti-war demonstration on Saturday, 28th September 2002. The smoke canister was smuggled into the thick of the march inside the big mobile puppet first constructed for the Kissinger protest. The action was widely photographed by
01:30:26 The action was widely photographed by the media and featured in some of the national press coverage the next day.
01:30:32 Further down that page, we see the source comment that Douglas considers the puppet a Trojan horse and is keen to exploit the possibilities it affords for concealment.
01:30:44 concealment. Now, you've already given me a little bit of an indication about this, but uh had you taken the puppet with you? I I think we had, yeah. I mean, I I can hardly recall.
01:30:55 hardly recall. I mean, again, you know, Sorry, and can you just remind us what the puppet was? a puppet of Kissinger. It was the Kissinger one, not the judges and It was a big Yeah, it was a big puppet of Kissinger. I believe so, anyway. I mean, I do remember we had
01:31:06 anyway. I mean, I do remember we had that quite a while cuz obviously we put a lot of effort into making these things, so we would use them in different situations. Um but like I say, I never let off I've not I've not I don't think I've ever let off a smoke flare or anything at all. Um
01:31:18 flare or anything at all. Um so, that wasn't me. Um it's you know, obviously it was somebody. Um and again, this statement, this this I mean, what is it's this weird sort of insinuation that
01:31:29 it's this weird sort of insinuation that somehow or to me, the way these things read, is it sort of this insinuation that we are somehow um we're not what we say we are. We're
01:31:40 um we're not what we say we are. We're kind of
01:31:41 kind of an armed resistance group that's just secretly trying You know what I mean? It's like
01:31:45 It's like You know, I don't know if you've if you've ever been on a demonstration in Europe, people let off smoke flares all the time. So, let off a smoke flare to me is not a big deal. It's not something that uh is violence or any gang or
01:31:56 that uh is violence or any gang or anything. So, again, it's like, what is it that is being um and even if we even if I or anyone else had smuggled a smoke bomb in a puppet's thing, what is it
01:32:07 bomb in a puppet's thing, what is it that's what is the problem? What is what is the issue? You know, what is the what is it that we're doing that is somehow needs to be fed back to the Met in this way?
01:32:19 in this way? So when when you've mentioned that maybe others did, I just want to check are you being coy and you do recall people doing that?
01:32:25 that? I can't recall who did it. I mean like you say you're on a demonstration and if you go on any any demonstrations, but you know, demonstrations have lots of people, there's lots of things going on. Yeah. Um uh
01:32:36 Yeah. Um uh If it got in the media, then that sounds to me that's great cuz you know, the media normally ignore us. So you know, you're obviously part of why I do what I do with the art activism that is about creating a spectacle and creating images
01:32:47 creating a spectacle and creating images that go in the media so that we actually can get our message across in imagery if not in written reports. Understood, but you your evidence is you you weren't involved in the smuggling
01:32:58 involved in the smuggling inside the puppet. I can say under oath I did not let off a smoke bomb. I can't say who did.
01:33:06 If we can move please to another document MPS 2011564. This is B64.
01:33:20 This is a report from and if you could show please page two.
01:33:27 This is a report from January 2003 referring to Global Resistance plans to disrupt a Labour Party meeting at the Lambeth Town Hall on the 27th of January
01:33:38 Lambeth Town Hall on the 27th of January 2003 which was to be attended by the then Defense Minister Geoff Hoon. Mhm. If we scroll down the page we can see a plan for demonstration outside the
01:33:49 plan for demonstration outside the venue.
01:33:51 venue. And then staying on page two the last three paragraphs, please. If we could just enlarge this slightly.
01:34:00 This is thirdly and most significantly a number a small number of activists will attempt to throw blood-filled balloons or baggies at Hoon as he either enters or leaves the building. Taylor's coordinating the action. It was
01:34:12 Taylor's coordinating the action. It was conceived during a pub session at the Urban Bar in the evening of Sunday the 26th of January 2003. At present, the details are only known to four individuals including Taylor
01:34:23 to four individuals including Taylor himself, Privacy Privacy, and one other. Privacy will collect at least two buckets full of blood from a butcher's or restaurant premises in Brick Lane this afternoon.
01:34:34 this afternoon. The GR activists fully expect that Hoon may be taken in or out of the building by a rear or side door, and they plan to have all these covered by activists with appropriate filled balloon or baggies.
01:34:46 appropriate filled balloon or baggies. It's likely that other throwers will be brought into the plan at the 11th hour. Now, you're not named in this report, but do you recall the demonstration that's being described? I have no recollection of this whatsoever. I I wasn't involved. I'll
01:34:58 whatsoever. I I wasn't involved. I'll say that. And I would but I would but what I would say in terms of these claims is that we have never and I have never
01:35:05 never ever sourced blood for a protest. If you were going to do something that we we wanted something to look like blood, you would use like, you know,
01:35:15 know, some sort of weird food dye or something like that. It's It's a completely ridiculous claim. But yeah, I've I've not I was not involved in this whatsoever. Um uh at all. So, Did you Did you ever hear about
01:35:27 Did you Did you ever hear about I can't even recall this one. I mean, I don't I I
01:35:30 don't I I I mean, as you were saying, we were doing a lot of stuff around that time cuz it was lead up to the Iraq war. Um
01:35:36 Um but no, I've got no recollection of this whatsoever. Well, we'll come back to this uh this topic Mhm. uh shortly. Mhm.
01:35:43 Mhm. Um Dicey 2003. Mhm.
01:35:48 Please could we show MPS 20s 3222, sorry. MPS 200522232. That's B45, sir.
01:36:03 Uh this is a report um
01:36:07 um reporting on the meeting of Global Resistance DSE working group ahead of the arms fair in September of 2003. On page one at paragraph three
01:36:20 On page one at paragraph three the report records that the meeting was chaired by Simon Wellings, so HN118. Then there's a list of attendees. Pausing there
01:36:32 Pausing there would HN118 chair GR meeting meetings often?
01:36:36 often? Um again, I don't really have a massive recollection. I wouldn't have thought so, although of course it's not beyond the realms of possibility. So returning to this report, we can see
01:36:47 So returning to this report, we can see that you're not listed in the attendees of the report of of the uh meeting. Uh but if we scroll overleaf to page two, please. And the third bullet point
01:36:59 And the third bullet point there's a reference to you designing a leaflet to name and shame UK companies participating in the arms trade. Yep, absolutely. So at this stage in June 2003
01:37:10 2003 uh what involvement did you have with GR's plans for DSE 2003? um from what I recall, I wasn't really involved in that at all. I would have I would have done a leaflet, and I think that would have probably been the the
01:37:22 that would have probably been the the uh the whole um scope of my involvement.
01:37:27 While we're on this page, there's a uh there's a reference to Mr. Taylor liaising with other groups including Campaign Against the Arms Trade. Mhm. Do you remember the extent of the
01:37:38 Mhm. Do you remember the extent of the liaison with Campaign Against the Arms Trade?
01:37:41 Trade? not not especially. I mean, we we would have liaised with them cuz they are the main group that organized the protest against the arms fair. Um but you know uh not uh I don't remember any
01:37:53 uh not uh I don't remember any particular details about it. So, if we could look at the fourth bullet point on page two where it says Global Eyes will not liaise with or cooperate with the police in the lead-up to the event. If challenged, the strategy will be that it's being
01:38:04 strategy will be that it's being organized by CAAT and GR are merely attending. Well, again, I don't really think that we would liaise with the police over anything we were doing unless from my
01:38:16 anything we were doing unless from my recall. I mean, I don't you know, again, the sort of implication here is that we're planning doing something that you know, is not uh not acceptable, but you know
01:38:27 you know again, those protests unfortunately were very generally very small in my experience and uh
01:38:34 uh if challenged by who? I don't know, you know, yeah, we would just say we're part of organizing against the arms fair. If it were to be said that the suggestion in this document is that Global Eyes is effectively effectively
01:38:45 Global Eyes is effectively effectively hiding behind another organization. Uh what would Again, this is sort of that's so far too Machiavellian. I mean, you know, we we are
01:38:54 are this is a good example of us fighting fighting for a peaceful world. We we are we are protesting against people that sell things that kill people. Um uh
01:39:03 uh we would be proud to be part of that. Um and we would be proud to join with CAAT in that in that in those protests. Page three, please. Second bullet point.
01:39:17 There's a reference here to HN118 performing a thorough reconnaissance of the Excel Center including analysis of transport infrastructure, CCTV, physical security measures
01:39:28 security measures around the exhibition space, internal layout.
01:39:32 layout. Uh were you aware of this plan for HN118 to reconnoiter the Excel Center? No, I don't I mean, I don't have any recollection of this. I mean again, whether he he may have gone off
01:39:43 again, whether he he may have gone off and done that. I mean, again, we we would have we would have taken our lead generally in terms of what we were doing with whatever CAT had organized, so whether that was you know, they'd have organized a protest, there was there would sometimes be some sort of direct action, but um
01:39:56 be some sort of direct action, but um you know, he's if I can I suppose anything I can say about this is I don't there's no sort of I can't see there's any reconnaissance for us that he's doing that would be needed to be done. Yeah.
01:40:07 Yeah. Um the penultimate paragraph of this page very quickly um given your indication that you you had limited um involvement with this. Um
01:40:16 Um in that there is a reference to GR activists um making a traveling away team. Um is that a term you ever heard? Yeah, I think they even had their own
01:40:27 Yeah, I think they even had their own football strip. I mean, I I don't know we again
01:40:30 we again I I don't I don't know this sort of language that runs throughout his his his uh
01:40:35 his uh um
01:40:36 um statements. It's either militaristic or it's kind of like it suggests a level of organization that we really didn't have, you know, I mean that we doubt that we'd have had a traveling away team of activists that
01:40:48 traveling away team of activists that could be separate from our own group of activists. It's just ridiculous, you know. I don't know. Moving forward again in time, but remaining with Dicey, please, could we show B47, which is MPS
01:41:00 please, could we show B47, which is MPS 20028972?
01:41:08 And this is an intelligence report dated the 1st of September 2003, and again, it's on uh Globalize Resistance planning. Mhm. Page one, second paragraph, end of second line. Globalize Resistance
01:41:20 second line. Globalize Resistance activists have built a large orange-colored cardboard tank to use as a prop on the demo, and this will be delivered in one of the SWP's vans at around 8:15 a.m., where it'll be assembled and made ready for use.
01:41:33 assembled and made ready for use. Did Did you have any involvement with Yes, I have to admit that I did make a big orange and pink tank out of cardboard over a couple of weekends for this demonstration. And what was the
01:41:44 this demonstration. And what was the intention behind the creation of this tank?
01:41:47 tank? was to take it on the demonstration. I suppose to satirize the fact that real tanks were being sold a couple of miles away.
01:41:55 away. Uh but painted orange and very clearly a prop. Uh obviously a prop made out of cardboard on very dodgy casters that was actually very difficult to move around. And is it right that it was delivered by
01:42:06 And is it right that it was delivered by an SWP van? Um I don't know if it would be an SWP van. Again, this sort of sort of underlies this idea that the SWP somehow I mean, we might have got a van with the SWP. We might have just hired one or got
01:42:18 SWP. We might have just hired one or got one from a mate. Um I do remember that Simon Welling did drive this tank, I think, on a couple of demonstrations. I think we got photographs of him doing that, actually. Um uh
01:42:28 uh I don't know. Who knows? But you're unaware of any interest by the SWP in assisting Globalize Resistance protesters in again, as I was saying earlier, that the sort of attitude certainly amongst a lot
01:42:39 sort of attitude certainly amongst a lot of the leaders of the SWP was that uh if anything, GR people were a bit crazy and um sort of just let them get on with it, really. You know, I mean, we were not it wasn't like um
01:42:50 wasn't like um it wasn't like they were expecting us to lead a workers council or something. You know, I mean, uh um
01:42:56 uh um and so it's a kind of a bit of a fantasy idea that
01:43:00 idea that uh as I said earlier, we were trying to uh make a broad anti-capitalist group as much broader than something like the SWP would be in terms of politics, and we were sort of left to kind of get on with that.
01:43:11 that. Paragraph three of this document, it says this: The plan will be to get as close as possible to the Excel Center itself and attempt to harass and prevent
01:43:23 itself and attempt to harass and prevent delegates gaining entry to the exhibition. In essence, was that the goal of the demonstration? that was the goal of a lot of people protesting. Um uh and there might have been people in
01:43:34 uh and there might have been people in Globalize Resistance who also had that goal. I don't see again a problem with that. I think that this is a fair that sells not just arms, it often sells illegal arms like cluster munitions and
01:43:46 illegal arms like cluster munitions and things like that. And I think any attempt to stop that happening, I mean, I will say this about DSEI, I was not involved in DSEI 2003 as far as I remember. I can recall the only one I can recall, and I recall it for a specific reason, was 2001.
01:43:59 specific reason, was 2001. And I recall that because that was the day that 9/11 happened. And as we were on the protest, our mobile phones went off, and everyone heard about what was going on in New York. And as you remember, everything was shut down
01:44:11 remember, everything was shut down because of 9/11, except for the arms fair, which continued because I'm sure they would have thought they were going to make lots of money from the forthcoming wars that were going to happen. But, I I'd say with 2003, I wasn't I I think apart from a poster, I
01:44:23 wasn't I I think apart from a poster, I don't think I was even there. Could we please scroll down to the penultimate paragraph of page one?
01:44:36 This paragraph reads, "GR's likely response to this will be to send the more direct action-minded activists out on raiding parties up and down the DLR in an attempt to catch arriving
01:44:47 in an attempt to catch arriving delegates on trains. Several Globalize Globalize activists, including Noel Douglas and Privacy, have been hoarding spray paint, and if the opportunity presents itself, they will attack
01:44:59 presents itself, they will attack arriving delegates with paint, blood-filled balloons, and eggs and the like."
01:45:05 like." "If there's a sufficient turnout and any weakness can be found in the building's defenses, it cannot be ruled out that GR activists will attempt to gain entry to the center, but this is their least favored option."
01:45:17 favored option." This is complete fantasy, right? I was not involved in this protest beyond making propaganda for it as far as I can remember.
01:45:24 remember. Um,
01:45:26 Um, I have never hoarded spray paint, although I'm an artist, I admit in that but never hoarded I bought spray paint but I've never hoarded it. Um I think in my version of this, unless I'm wrong, the one I got sent there was a claim that I bought theatrical maroons, which
01:45:38 that I bought theatrical maroons, which I had to look up, which I think is a lot not in relation to this, but we will come to that. Okay, all right. Okay. All right. Uh again, the blood thing, I've dealt with that. Um
01:45:47 that. Um uh I can't recall any protest where we use paint, balloons filled with anything, or eggs, really. Um uh
01:45:56 uh And again, I mean, at the time in the media with these protests, and it was the same around things like May Day, there were all sorts of mad lies told about what the activists were going to do. I can remember with one of the May Days they said there was going to be
01:46:07 Days they said there was going to be there were ninjas on the tube that were going to be attacking people. I mean, again, it's this idea that somehow we're we're not um we're not people that are committed to
01:46:19 we're not people that are committed to trying to change the world and actually have
01:46:22 have the the
01:46:24 the the uh that we care about people and the world, that we're somehow criminals that are kind of we're just waiting to shut down or cause havoc or craziness, you know? But this is complete In terms of
01:46:37 know? But this is complete In terms of relation to me, this is completely made up in terms of my involvement. But as I say, I would also say we haven't hoarded spray paint. There's no blood-filled balloons. There was no plan to Again,
01:46:48 balloons. There was no plan to Again, this thing attack arriving delegates. We don't attack anybody, right? You might try and block an entrance or um challenge someone with words on a on the DLR cuz some people did that, you know,
01:47:00 DLR cuz some people did that, you know, have a go at them, yeah? Which I think again is fine. But we're never going to attack someone. You're not going to You're not going to go and punch someone or something like that. It's crazy. Finally on this topic,
01:47:11 that. It's crazy. Finally on this topic, um
01:47:12 um Mr. Taylor says in his statement, and we don't need to bring it up, I'll read it, but it's at um UCPI 37738, pa- uh page 16, row 120.
01:47:23 pa- uh page 16, row 120. He says that blood-filled balloons were mentioned at a meeting in the earliest days of GR and quickly were decided against and became a running joke in the organization. Wellings appears not to have not understood the joke.
01:47:36 have not understood the joke. When he gave evidence on Monday, he also explained that when that suggestion was first made, it was met with incredulity. Uh,
01:47:44 Uh, is it right that blood-filled balloons were a running joke? I I can't recall uh the blood-filled balloons joke, but I mean it could be possible, obviously. I mean, you know, when you're planning an action, you throw out all sorts of ideas
01:47:55 action, you throw out all sorts of ideas about what you could do. Um, it's like I said earlier, if we were trying to do something that resembled blood on a demonstration, I mean, you've had anti-war demonstrations where people have fake blood. You get some fake
01:48:06 have fake blood. You get some fake blood, you know, from the com- from the comedy shop. You wouldn't go and get blood.
01:48:11 blood. I mean, that's kind of that's that's sort of mad. I don't know. It's But yeah, I mean, I don't I've I can't recall whether it was a running joke or not.
01:48:20 not. Please, could we show Mr. Douglass's statement at pages 5 to 6, uh enlarging paragraphs 10, 11, and 12, please?
01:48:37 At paragraph 10, you say you clearly remember two occasions where HM118 attempted to get you arrested. Mhm.
01:48:45 Mhm. Paragraph 11, the first occasion was on the night the Iraq war broke out and Stop the War has called for a demonstration at Whitehall, which was held to one side of the road by the police. Demonstrators tried, through
01:48:57 police. Demonstrators tried, through pushing, to get through police lines to block the whole road. I was with SW, who was aggressively trying to get everyone to push through the police lines. I overheard one of the commanding
01:49:08 I overheard one of the commanding officers of on the police side say, "Him and him," pointing at me and SW, suggesting that we were being targeted for potential arrest. At which point, I held back, not wanting to be arrested.
01:49:21 held back, not wanting to be arrested. Then in paragraph 12, you refer to the suffragist protest that we've we've considered a little earlier. Now, I think I take it from your earlier evidence, you weren't arrested at either of these.
01:49:30 of these. No.
01:49:31 No. I've I've never been arrested at either. No, indeed. When you suggest that neither um neither of the events were a situation worth getting arrested for. What do you mean by that? I mean that, you know, I
01:49:42 mean by that? I mean that, you know, I I'm not naive. I understand that if you do political activism and you're challenging the status quo, there's a possibility of things that you might do that might might get arrested you might get arrested.
01:49:54 get arrested. Um and that doesn't have to be something that's criminal. I mean, we know now that people can be arrested even for just thinking about demonstrations at the moment. Um but um that's what I mean. I'm not going to get if I if I So,
01:50:05 mean. I'm not going to get if I if I So, in this situation where we were trying to push through the police lines to block Whitehall, as I said, I heard the officer
01:50:12 officer say that. And this is very much like the suffragist thing. Simon was really gone home and kind of whatever. And I'm not going to get arrested for just trying to push through police lines to block the road, you know? It's in that situation, it's not worth it
01:50:24 that situation, it's not worth it because it it's all sorts of hassle. It might create hassle with your job, whatever, you know? And it's just not uh as I say, my goal is not to get arrested. My goal is to is to be political and try and change
01:50:35 is to be political and try and change things.
01:50:36 things. Um and so, I would make a judgment about, you know, what's worth doing in a particular situation. Might might there be a time where you considered it would be worth getting arrested? Yes, if I thought that the um
01:50:47 um you know, something unjust was happening. Um and
01:50:51 Um and the the only way to do that was to uh you know, do something like block a road or something that might put you in the frame for getting arrested because I know you didn't move on because the police said move on. Then yes, I would I
01:51:03 police said move on. Then yes, I would I would certainly um
01:51:05 um uh I wouldn't be happy to be arrested. But I'm prepared to be um uh for that situation to happen if it did happen. And was it clear to you at the time that HN118 was encouraging you
01:51:16 the time that HN118 was encouraging you to behave in in a way that caused you to risk arrest or is that a a realization you came to later? Well, that's again it's it's a situation I really distinctly recall maybe because it was the night of the Iraq war broke out or
01:51:28 the night of the Iraq war broke out or whatever. I mean obviously I didn't know Simon was an undercover cop so it's not like I was thinking oh he's trying to get me arrested at the time but obviously looking back that is my interpretation of of his
01:51:40 that is my interpretation of of his behavior. Yeah. And and did you form that view after you discovered that he was an undercover officer? Yes, because because he was the only he was the person with me and although I'm not against trying to
01:51:51 and although I'm not against trying to push through the police lines which I think is a very minor form of civil disobedience. As I say, I'm not going to once I heard the officer I said to him actually
01:52:03 the officer I said to him actually Simon you know let's just let's calm pull back you know cuz I think we're being singled out you know. Um and but yes it's obviously an an observation I've made knowing that he was an undercover cop so it's my
01:52:15 was an undercover cop so it's my interpretation of his behavior. And you've spoken about this being the the night the Iraq war broke out. So that was that the demonstration on the 20th of March 2003? so yes.
01:52:26 so yes. of the invasion? Yeah.
01:52:28 Yeah. And were you there as part of a group from Global Resistance? Um we weren't there as an organized group I don't think. I think I just went down you know. I mean again a lot at this time you have to remember there was lots
01:52:39 time you have to remember there was lots of demonstrations and lots of things going on so it's perfectly possible that I just went down because it was the night of the Iraq war starting you know. It wasn't a it wasn't an organized delegation if that's what you're getting
01:52:50 delegation if that's what you're getting wasn't organized. So so others some GLM have been there but They may have been. I only I can only in my memory recall me and Simon. Understood.
01:53:01 Um thinking back to HN118's actions at the event, you say at paragraph 11 of your statement that he was aggressively trying to get everyone to push through the police lines.
01:53:12 the police lines. You say he was encouraging everyone, so presumably that included you. Yeah, I mean obviously in those situations if people are trying to push through a police line, he wouldn't have been the only person
01:53:23 only person sort of you know trying to say come on people we can do this or whatever. And again, I use the word aggressively. I mean I'm not Yes, in what way was he Yeah, what do you mean? I mean to be fair to him, I'm not suggesting that he was
01:53:34 was uh punching the police or whatever, but I mean he was riling people up. It was like you know kind of come on, let's you know whatever.
01:53:41 whatever. Um
01:53:41 Um and um
01:53:44 and um Yeah, but he wouldn't I I I mean I don't know. Again, I can't really recall. I mean
01:53:48 mean you know obviously it's a situation where people might be linking arms and and just through the force of them of numbers trying to get through the police line. And uh presumably he was encouraging anyone around him? Yes,
01:54:00 encouraging anyone around him? Yes, yeah. I mean we were in we were part of a crowd of people that were I mean again, it was another situation where we had quite a lot of people out on the night, but probably were not enough to break through the police lines to be
01:54:11 to break through the police lines to be honest with you.
01:54:13 When you say that you believe HN118 was trying to get you arrested, is is it your belief that he was actually intending for you to be arrested or more that you feel he was
01:54:24 arrested or more that you feel he was encouraging higher risk behavior from you and others? Obviously that's something that I it's just my speculation. Indeed, and that that is what I'm asking for obviously. Yeah, absolutely. And and you know obviously knowing what I know now
01:54:36 obviously knowing what I know now and in those two situations I think that I was at a greater risk of arrest because of his behavior. And I and knowing what I know about him now I obviously feel that that could have
01:54:48 I obviously feel that that could have been part of his strategy. You describe overhearing the police commander identify you and HN118 and as a consequence you backed off. Yeah.
01:54:58 Yeah. How far away was that officer from you? He was I could see him over the police lines. I think he might have been on a horse. And did you hear him saying him and you How How was it that you heard him saying him and you? otherwise I wouldn't have necessarily done anything, but you know, I mean the
01:55:10 done anything, but you know, I mean the reason why I flagged these two things up particularly for the inquiry because I feel it does fit a pattern that we've seen with some of the other spies where they're not just bystanders. They're very much actively involved in the
01:55:24 very much actively involved in the disorder that they claim they're trying to stop. And he only identified two people, you and H and 1. Yeah, I remember I remember I could just remember him saying him and him. I'm not saying that they didn't identify other people, but you know, I could definitely I mean
01:55:36 but you know, I could definitely I mean that's why I pulled back, as I say. And um does does it follow that given that you and um H and 118 were the only two identified that you were the two most
01:55:48 identified that you were the two most disruptive protesters? Um I don't know if we were the most disruptive. I don't know if I put it like I don't know. I mean I don't know what the policeman's what going on in the
01:55:56 the in the police office. It might have just been
01:55:57 been Can you think why you warranted special We were actually trying to push through and we were at the we were almost opposite where the guy was. So it might have been that because we were closest to him, he could see us two
01:56:08 to him, he could see us two as two people to identify. Do you know what I mean? I mean I mean obviously it was a long row of people. Uh you know, it went quite a way down the road. It wasn't like we were uh just two of us on our own. Uh so
01:56:19 uh just two of us on our own. Uh so there may have been other police further down things spotting other people and saying, you know, those two Do you know what I mean? I That's to me my experience of demonstrations is people do get spotted out for arrest and then
01:56:30 do get spotted out for arrest and then you're arrested. say you backed off, did that Was that a physical backing off or was it a de-escalating of behavior? Just a physical backing off. Just walking walking back, you know, not and not continuing to push. Now obviously you weren't arrested
01:56:41 weren't arrested at this event. 118 wasn't arrested, presumably. No, no. Not as far as I know. Are you aware of any others involved in the in pushes that have been encouraged by 118 being
01:56:52 that have been encouraged by 118 being arrested? No. So would that be a convenient moment for our morning break. Um the transcribers have a well-earned 15-minute rest. I'm so I'm so sorry. I didn't realize I was talking so quickly.
02:00:49 Mhm.
02:02:44 Mhm.
02:04:39 Mhm.
02:06:34 Mhm.
02:08:29 Mhm.
02:10:24 Mhm.
02:12:19 Mhm.
02:13:35 Yes.
02:13:38 Uh please can we bring up HM118's witness statement at page 42. That's MPS 0744847.
02:13:48 And if we could display paragraphs 114 and 115.
02:14:03 Here 118 says, "I became GR webmaster because my predecessor stepped back from activism. And as this was a further role in which it was reasonable for me to information on GR plans and intentions,
02:14:14 information on GR plans and intentions, be in their offices and access otherwise encrypted information. It seemed like a helpful complement to my other intelligence gathering. Can you help me with this?
02:14:26 Can you help me with this? What type of information would have been stored on the computers in the GR office?
02:14:30 office? Um uh
02:14:32 Um uh beyond kind of like email list with contacts and that and various documents that we'd work on for you know, whatever it was a leaflet or something. Nothing beyond that really.
02:14:44 something. Nothing beyond that really. Um
02:14:45 Um uh
02:14:47 uh Yeah, I think Would uh information um would personal information, for example, be stored elsewhere in the office other than No, I mean again, this sort of uh I suppose there's a sort of an underlying
02:14:59 suppose there's a sort of an underlying suggestion in this that there's somehow uh some secret information he's gaining access to which, as I say, beyond people's contact info uh isn't true and
02:15:11 uh isn't true and I try I did talk to the actress who happened in the website and he doesn't really remember Simon becoming what we'd call the webmaster, but I mean again, I can't corroborate that completely. Um
02:15:22 that completely. Um but um
02:15:24 but um Yeah, this you know, it was just he would have obviously had access to people's
02:15:28 people's uh contact details, phone numbers, addresses, which obviously I presume would have been useful for him to find out. And would he have had unsupervised access to the computers? Um
02:15:38 Um possibly. Um again, like Guy was saying on Monday, it wasn't like we were Fort Knox. Um you know, that as I say, that we were quite open in how we did stuff.
02:15:49 we were quite open in how we did stuff. Um
02:15:50 Um uh you know, we had access to the computers if you were in the office. Um as I say, there's nothing from my perspective and I kind of also want to kind of make clear, there's nothing for us to hide, you know, in terms of the
02:16:01 us to hide, you know, in terms of the what we're doing, so there's no reason to be worried about uh people having access to the computer information. And would he have had unsupervised access to the office itself? Um,
02:16:12 the office itself? Um, I don't know if that's true. I don't know. I don't I can't recall I'd say without speaking to Guy, I can't recall whether he would have had a key or or whatever. I mean, he obviously could have got a key, I presume, through what he was
02:16:23 key, I presume, through what he was obviously doing. I'm sure that's possible. Do you recall anything about his cover employment? Um,
02:16:31 Um, the only thing I can recall was is maybe the bit we'll get onto later where he said he'd make some Frisbees for us. Um, he's he um, I didn't you know, we didn't I suppose again, this is another thing where looking back, Well, if we do
02:16:44 where looking back, Well, if we do Let's deal with the Frisbee thing now. Okay.
02:16:46 Okay. As I understand it, you say in your witness statement that he said he would produce Frisbees to be used in the demonstration against George Bush. Yeah. Uh, did he? No. And what did he say about it? Uh, he
02:16:58 And what did he say about it? Uh, he said that he'd been caught by the manager
02:17:00 manager and he couldn't get them made. Did you understand that his cover employment involved um, computing? Um,
02:17:10 Um, again, I can't quite recall that it's kind of weird cuz I can't recall any prob- maybe it's part of his deployment that he would have done this sort of thing. But I can't recall having lots of conversations about his personal life, you know. Um,
02:17:23 personal life, you know. Um, so I'm afraid I'm a bit in the dark on that one. Thank you. In your witness statement at paragraph paragraph 25, it's on page 10,
02:17:35 you refer to H 118's statement and you say,
02:17:41 "H 118 states he had become webmaster for GR and in this position took photographs for GR. This clearly meant he had access to everyone's information, all the docs he put online, knew all the passwords, etc. I'm disturbed that in
02:17:53 passwords, etc. I'm disturbed that in his reports he mentions friends of mine who are only vaguely linked to any political activity, but he knew and reported things like their phone number, which I can only presume came from him accessing my contact info.
02:18:06 accessing my contact info. Now, I think you've already suggested that you
02:18:09 that you maybe he had less access than that. Well, I mean, obviously, when you see in his report, I mean, I'm I'm not suggesting that uh I mean, his his level of access, I'm not sure, but you can see from his
02:18:21 not sure, but you can see from his reporting on me and the files that I was I was sent that he knew about, as I said, people that are
02:18:27 that are not just my fellow activists, my girlfriend, you know, all sorts of other things, uh other other people, um and so uh I can only presume I mean, obviously, it could have come
02:18:38 I mean, obviously, it could have come through conversation I had with him, you know, because again, as I say, you're not thinking he's a spy, you're just talking about your life with him, you know. Um but it's certainly disturbing to to think that he was reporting back, you
02:18:50 think that he was reporting back, you know, about like as other people have said, you know, who my girlfriend was or what their name is or, you know. But your suggestion in this paragraph is more that he had access to your own contact information. Well, I mean, I I
02:19:02 contact information. Well, I mean, I I pres- I say I presume because I mean, I I, you know, if he's a if he's a capable police spy, which obviously is in doubt, um uh I presume he would have been able to do that. And and do you mean information
02:19:15 do that. And and do you mean information other than that which would have been stored on the GRN computers? Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I don't know. I mean, he could have um you know, I can see my calls were being logged in some sort of way from the acts- from the stuff I've being sent.
02:19:27 acts- from the stuff I've being sent. So, I presume I mean, I don't know. I mean, he could have have my email password somehow. I don't You know, like I say, I obviously the the problem with this sort of stuff, once you find out who these people are, is it makes you
02:19:39 who these people are, is it makes you sort of obviously, the it's designed to sort of make you feel slightly paranoid about, you know, what might have happened. And you you touched upon this, I think, already, but you say
02:19:50 I think, already, but you say um there's the reports on people who are only vaguely linked to political activity. Yeah, so there's peop- you know, there's people that involved in Global Resistance or people from other countries,
02:20:01 countries, uh you know, that he's taking details of and That you knew. Yes. Yes.
02:20:08 Uh but you you can't really assess as how he actually did that. No, I mean as I say, obviously I'm I wasn't party to you know, I don't know. I mean, he could have been
02:20:18 have been doing all sorts of things, couldn't he? I don't But there's no obvious thing No, I don't I don't have any direct connection. I'm only going off the information I was sent in the summer where I could see that he obviously was aware of certain things or certain
02:20:30 aware of certain things or certain people that I was a bit surprised about. Sorry, but my my my point is that the information you have seen could have come from a variety of sources, not a single source which he could only have access
02:20:43 source which he could only have access access through a particular method. I don't know. I don't know. I can't really say about that. I'm not sure. Okay, fine. Understood. Steering Committee. From your recollection, and we've touched on a little bit,
02:20:55 touched on a little bit, how did the governments of Global Resistance operate? How did the wider organization make its decisions? Uh through the Steering Committee. So, we would meet regularly with the
02:21:06 we would meet regularly with the Steering Committee. We would look at things that were coming up and what things we want to get involved with. Um uh and then do whatever we decided. I mean, but then we weren't that formal an
02:21:17 mean, but then we weren't that formal an organization. I mean, if someone uh had an idea and wanted to get involved with stuff, well, we often had people that would come into GR that were particularly interested in a particular area of politics, say like environmentalism or whatever, and they
02:21:29 environmentalism or whatever, and they wanted to do a particular thing and we'd and we'd support them uh and they'd do it and you know, it was kind of
02:21:36 kind of as I say, we weren't we weren't um we weren't kind of at quite the high level of organization I think as as sort of has been portrayed in these reports. We were quite a loose group. Um I think
02:21:48 We were quite a loose group. Um I think we were quite effective and I'm quite proud of how effective we were for being a small group, but um but yeah, that's that's how it worked. There wasn't um there wasn't a kind of a a particular
02:22:00 there wasn't a kind of a a particular way that we would organize things. It was obviously through the steering committee in general, but then, you know, it might be that um uh I don't know, a particular thing came up and and a couple of us decided we'd go along and demonstrate that or
02:22:12 go along and demonstrate that or whatever it might be and and do it. And and was that by the steering committee making decisions as an executive committee or recommending it to a wider body of members? it kind of that sort of portrays the
02:22:24 it kind of that sort of portrays the organization as too far too formal. I mean, we're not we weren't like a political party that maybe have a three-line whip or something like that, you know, it was very much like um if if you if we were doing something,
02:22:36 if if you if we were doing something, we'd we'd decide to do it and then we'd get people along. It's like going to the WMF in New York. We thought that would be important to go to cuz it was just after 9/11 and we'd go support the American comrades out there and bring
02:22:47 American comrades out there and bring some of the European experience. And that was just like, well, who's got the money to go to New York? And a couple of us did have the money to go to New York. So, we went to New York. It was like, you know, that's I mean, it was very informal. It wasn't um
02:22:59 informal. It wasn't um that kind of there was a chain of command or something like that, you know. No, but in terms of their collective decision-making process, was it the the 13 members or so of the steering committee coming to a
02:23:11 steering committee coming to a consensus? Sorry, I'm not um yes, they obviously ultimately the steering committee was what led the organization. Um I don't think we need to bring it up, but there's an early report, sir, B3 in
02:23:22 but there's an early report, sir, B3 in your bundle, MPS 308028. Um Mr. Douglas, this this is a report which uh explains that GR makes its decisions through the steering committee and lists you as one of the 13 activists
02:23:35 and lists you as one of the 13 activists on that steering committee. So, that and that's dated the 14th of February 2002. So, I take it that you were on that steering committee throughout the time that 118 was
02:23:47 throughout the time that 118 was involved with Yeah, think I was on the steering committee for most of the time the group existed actually.
02:23:54 Could we move please to MPS 2018972?
02:23:59 So that'd be 40 in the bundle. Uh which is a document containing a number of reports which we understand is dated the 12th of May 2003 although no date appears on its face.
02:24:11 date appears on its face. At page six of this document
02:24:17 there's a report referring to the Globalise Resistance annual conference which took place on Sat- Saturday the 10th of May 2003 at the LSE. In the three paragraphs at the foot of
02:24:29 In the three paragraphs at the foot of page seven
02:24:33 the report records the election of a new steering committee.
02:24:40 And we see that you are uh
02:24:44 uh you are one of the uh you are reelected along with 11 others. Mhm.
02:24:49 Mhm. And then overleaf on page eight, if we could enlarge paragraphs two, three, and four.
02:24:57 So the first paragraph on that page just confirms that those were all reelected with unanimously. And two, three, and four Paragraph two, following individuals were then asked to step forward in turn
02:25:08 were then asked to step forward in turn to the microphone and propose themselves by explaining briefly about their involvement with GR and why they should be elected. Each one met no objection and was elected unopposed by the conference.
02:25:19 conference. And then there's a list of 14 individuals elected to the committee. And you can see that that includes Simon Wellings
02:25:28 Wellings HN118
02:25:29 HN118 and also the person that we are calling MT.
02:25:32 MT. Mhm.
02:25:35 This report describes candidates having to explain their involvement with GR and why they should be elected. First of all, the process was that the process that went through.
02:25:46 process that went through. Do you recall what HN118 said in order to get elected? No, I I can't recall that at all.
02:25:55 What level of influence did individual members of the steering committee have in shaping the organization? Um well, it was a kind of collective. So, as I say, we would meet and we would
02:26:07 So, as I say, we would meet and we would collectively discuss um you know, things that we wanted to do. I mean, I I I mean, I I know obviously Simon Welling's was on the committee from these documents, but as I say, I can't
02:26:18 these documents, but as I say, I can't really
02:26:19 really recall him making any major decisions um or putting forward any proposals. That's not to say he wouldn't have. Um
02:26:29 Um but that's how we did things. And then, once we'd agreed it, you know, whether it was we're going to organize a conference or we're going to go to this demonstration or we need to book this train, you know, that's how we would organize. And so, I don't mean to labor
02:26:40 organize. And so, I don't mean to labor the point, but when you say we had agreed it, Mhm. was that reached a broad consensus or was there a vote or how did it work? There's no vote. It was not that formal.
02:26:51 There's no vote. It was not that formal. I mean, it was it was as I say, obviously if someone had a strong objection to something that we someone had proposed, we would talk about it and we certainly wouldn't do things that
02:27:02 we certainly wouldn't do things that people didn't want to do even if um even if they were maybe in on the majority. But like I say, I mean, in in general, my memory of the steering committee was that we all generally got
02:27:13 committee was that we all generally got on really well. Uh it was at a time when the movement was on the up and everybody was quite optimistic and positive and lots seemed possible to do. Um and that kind of mood generally ran
02:27:25 Um and that kind of mood generally ran through the meetings that we had. Please, could we bring up HN118's witness statement? And uh paragraph 113, please.
02:27:36 It's where he describes being on the steering committee.
02:27:59 Thank you. And starting at the fourth line it says, "I found myself in this position of trust by being broadly reliable without being over enthusiastic and by making the right contacts, which is straightforward enough because I
02:28:10 is straightforward enough because I attended enough events and made myself useful.
02:28:13 useful. This was how I found myself at steering committee meetings before my election." Pausing there, do you remember him being at steering committees before he was elected to it? Um not off hand, but it's not it's not but it's not possible.
02:28:28 My managers didn't push me to assume any position of responsibility and in any event my role at or on the steering committee did not carry with it any real responsibility.
02:28:39 responsibility. Is that an accurate assessment? Um I think his his description of himself as being broadly reliable without being over enthusiastic is pretty accurate. And the Sorry, and his position on the
02:28:50 And the Sorry, and his position on the steering committee not carrying any real responsibility. Um yeah, I mean again, I can't recall him being given any particular significant task to do. And then further down that paragraph he
02:29:01 And then further down that paragraph he says, "Given the size of the GR steering committee and the fact that Gareth Taylor and Chris Nineham were taking their orders from the SWP Central Committee in any event, I had no influence over proceedings and did not
02:29:12 influence over proceedings and did not view it as consistent with my role either to make GR more effective or seek to disrupt it. As I recall, I was on the steering committee until my expulsion from GR."
02:29:26 Is it right that he had no influence over proceedings? I wouldn't say he had no influence cuz obviously he was involved in the discussions and things like that. I mean, I don't He obviously
02:29:37 mean, I don't He obviously didn't disrupt us at any level uh cuz we obviously did what we wanted to do. Um
02:29:44 Um but, you know, I would say um I wouldn't say he had no influence, cuz obviously he was part of it. So, he must have uh he must have had discussions that involved him, and he must have put forward his views or
02:29:55 must have put forward his views or whatever during those times. You've already help assisted us with the influence from SWP Central Committee, but do I take it from your earlier answers
02:30:06 answers that Mr. Taylor and Mr. Nineham were not, as far as you were aware, taking orders from SWP Central Committee? Well, Chris Nineham was on the Central Committee, if I remember that time. So, orders in relation to the
02:30:17 orders in relation to the that kind of suggests that the the people the other people that there's a hierarchy even within the Central Committee. Like, it it's it you know, the SWP has its politics and has its interests. So, obviously the interest was that there's a kind of big
02:30:30 interest was that there's a kind of big movement, and some of those people involved in the movement will be interested in Marxist politics. So, if we're involved with it, some people might be interested in becoming Marxists. So, that's the sort of logic,
02:30:41 Marxists. So, that's the sort of logic, isn't it? And that there's no sort of um I don't think there's anything particularly sinister to that. But, like I say, when with Globalise, it we were sort of a sort of a a quite a autonomous organization in the sense
02:30:53 autonomous organization in the sense that it was very much It was Guy, really, more than Chris, I would say. But, Chris was was certainly an important person, but we also had other um I mean, some of the people we just saw the names of on the others the list
02:31:04 saw the names of on the others the list of the student committees. Some of those people were very serious key activists in other parts of the movement. They certainly weren't people that you could order around and tell to do, you know? So, and again, like I said earlier, that
02:31:15 So, and again, like I said earlier, that would sort of be counterproductive. I mean, I know there was lots of criticisms of Globalise Listen from various parts of the movement um because of the involvement and the cuz of it being set up by the SWP. But, actually,
02:31:26 being set up by the SWP. But, actually, you know,
02:31:27 you know, you know, we fundraise, let's say we did it through selling t-shirts and badges and organizing meetings, and I just think we were just quite good at what we did. So, when we did
02:31:38 did. So, when we did organize meetings, we we were imaginative and we I remember a big meeting we had at Camden Town Hall with a farmer, French farmer called Jose Bove and Tony Benn, and that had 700 people come to it, which obviously all paid to
02:31:49 come to it, which obviously all paid to come, right? So, we made lots of money out of that meeting, and that's how we worked. And now that was That was not set up by the SWP. That was set up by those of us in Global Resistance who were doing the work in Global Resistance.
02:32:01 Resistance. And you also, presumably, made funds through selling some of the merchandise that you
02:32:07 that you Yeah, absolutely. So, I I designed lots of t-shirts, which sold really well, and, you know, although there's a quite an outlay in terms of making them, they are they are they you you make 50 cent profits on t-shirts. Uh we sold lots of
02:32:19 profits on t-shirts. Uh we sold lots of badges. So, a couple of my couple of the badges I made are actually in the British Museum badge collection now. Quite bizarrely. Um um and also the posters I did, some of them are in the V&A archive now. So, that's kind of the
02:32:30 V&A archive now. So, that's kind of the weird places they've ended up. But, um yeah, we made a lot of money, you know, if you sell a badge a badge at a pound and it's cost you 20p to make, you'd be surprised at how much money you can make um from selling them, you know. Um but
02:32:41 um from selling them, you know. Um but obviously it's what I would hope without bigging myself up, it's obviously the attractiveness of the designs that make people want to buy them. So, yes, we made lots of money from selling t-shirts and badges as a
02:32:52 from selling t-shirts and badges as a way to fundraise. Returning to the um steering committee, would you say that a member of the steering committee in H and 118 being an example of this, is was more influential influential
02:33:04 is was more influential influential within the movement than an ordinary active member? Yes, I mean, obviously you were part of the steering groups of of Global Resistance. I mean, I but I think that Simon
02:33:15 Simon Like I said, I don't think Si- I mean, I suppose he did it deliberately. I don't think Simon particularly um uh tried to um uh,
02:33:26 uh, lead anything or whatever, you know what I mean, or or put yourself forward uh, for things where he would be in the lead of a a leading light, as he called it, you know. So, when you say in your statement that you don't think he he had
02:33:37 statement that you don't think he he had a big influence on the group's strategy, that's what you mean? Yes. Yeah. I mean, he was part he was part of the discussions, obviously, so I mean, obviously, we're talking about 20 years ago, so I can't recall them the minutiae of the discussions that we had. I mean,
02:33:48 of the discussions that we had. I mean, it's possible that he would have contributed, and I don't know. I mean, he obviously could have said things during those discussions that maybe made made us change our mind about a particular thing, but it's not something I could vouch for in this situation.
02:33:59 vouch for in this situation. Please, could we, um, pull up, um, MPS 20021594,
02:34:06 20021594, please. That's B42 in the bundle, sir. Um, this is an intelligence report dated the 13th of June, 2003. And, um, as you can see, it sets out what is described on the third line
02:34:18 what is described on the third line as a full list of the new steering committee, along with their email addresses. And this document postdates H and 118's election to the steering committee. As far as you know,
02:34:30 far as you know, would he have had access to this contact detail information prior to his election to the steering committee? Uh, he could have done if he was in the office.
02:34:44 Where what would it because it was kept on the Yeah, and as I say, we it wasn't like we were massively security conscious and kind of, you know, had to, as I say, massive passwords that you could like I don't know as I say, you
02:34:56 could like I don't know as I say, you would you might come in and and want to do some work on the computer, and so you'd have access to the computer. I mean, you know.
02:35:05 I'd like to ask you now about a member of the steering committee whom we've ciphered as MT. Mhm. And in particular, I'd like to explore your knowledge of a fake suicide bomb stunt which is said by H and 118 to have involved MT. Mhm.
02:35:20 H and 118 to have involved MT. Mhm. You should be able to see MT's name on the cipher list you have, but I understand that you know it. But in your answers, please may I ask that to be careful not to use his name or identify him in another way.
02:35:33 or identify him in another way. First,
02:35:35 First, I'd like to look at HN118's reports concerning this proposed stunt and what is said there, and then I will come to ask you some questions about the event. So, if we could pull up MPS 2027866.
02:35:48 could pull up MPS 2027866. This is B65. And we see here
02:35:54 a report with date information obtained from source 15th of July, same day typing.
02:36:01 typing. And the heading Activist MT possible action concerning the visit of Ariel Sharon.
02:36:08 Paragraph one reads, "The activist MT, who's associated with has spoken of his intention to of embarrassing Mr. Sharon during his visit to the UK and his protection
02:36:20 visit to the UK and his protection officers by dressing up as a suicide bomber and performing some sort of protest action in protest action in the vicinity of Mr. Sharon." And then at the source comment, "This plan is not
02:36:32 source comment, "This plan is not endorsed by fellow activists who consider it to be too dangerous and could result in being shot by Mr. Sharon's protection officers. However, MT is apparently a determined individual
02:36:44 MT is apparently a determined individual who may carry out this action of his own volition." And then if we could move to another document, MPS 0027874. This is B65 in the bundle, sir.
02:36:57 This is B65 in the bundle, sir. Information date again 15th of July, typing date 16th of July 2007. And the heading of this is MT talked out of extreme action by Guy Taylor.
02:37:10 of extreme action by Guy Taylor. The body of the report reads, the globalized resistance activist intended to cause embarrassment to the visiting Prime Minister of Israel Ariel Sharon and his police protection during his visit to the UK.
02:37:21 visit to the UK. His plan involved dressing up as a suicide bomber and attempting to infiltrate Mr. Sharon's personal security cordon. MT seemed determined to carry out this stunt despite obvious dangers. However,
02:37:33 stunt despite obvious dangers. However, MT was talked out of doing it after having a long conversation with Guy Taylor the de facto head of GR. Taylor did not do this on his own. He was helped by another member of GR NFD
02:37:45 was helped by another member of GR NFD trusted by Taylor. And it was their combined efforts that eventually persuaded MT not to go ahead with this planned stunt. First MT, as we've seen MT was elected
02:37:58 First MT, as we've seen MT was elected to the steering committee on the 10th of May 2003 at the same time as HN118. And it's right I think that you attended steering committee meetings when both
02:38:09 steering committee meetings when both 118 and MT were present. Is that right? Yes.
02:38:14 Yes. Do you remember MT at that time? I do remember MT. I think my comment about him though without any disrespect to him was that I never really he was an example of
02:38:25 never really he was an example of someone that although he was on the steering committee I felt kind of didn't massively get involved with GR. He was kind of with us but not you know like a again become a
02:38:36 but not you know like a again become a sort of lead leading role in the group. He he will give his evidence today this afternoon. I mean he his recollection in his statement is that he was a member of
02:38:47 his statement is that he was a member of the group for less than a year between 2003 and 2004. Does that sound broadly
02:38:52 broadly Yeah, that's what I mean. I mean he was like you know we knew him and I don't think he even particularly did a lot with us really. How well did you know him before he was elected to the steering committee? I don't think I knew him at all.
02:39:03 I don't think I knew him at all. But you knew him by July 2003? Yeah, I knew him obviously getting involved with us. Uh
02:39:09 Uh in so far as you can comment, um
02:39:14 um how well would H and 118 know MT? Now, I I appreciate that it's difficult to answer that, but what I would like to know, please, is how often were they at meetings or events together? Well, I think it would be similar to me. I mean, I think he would not have
02:39:26 I think he would not have met him that many times.
02:39:32 And as far as you're aware, they weren't um people that would socialize together? No, not as far as I know. I mean, beyond you know, beyond us going for a drink after meetings or something. And you can't assess whether they had mutual
02:39:43 can't assess whether they had mutual friends?
02:39:44 friends? No, I don't think so. I mean, again, I I wouldn't know. I wouldn't have thought so. Sorry, I spoke over you. I said I wouldn't have thought so. Thank you. Mr. Taylor in his evidence on Monday agreed that a member of GR did express
02:39:56 agreed that a member of GR did express an intention to target Ariel Sharon wearing a fake suicide vest. Do you recall that a member of GR suggested this stunt? Yes, I do, and I think I might be
02:40:08 think I might be the other person that's that NFD that's mentioned there. Yes, so NFD, we understand it could be not for
02:40:16 not for dissemination. Okay. Or Well, I I certainly was with the person who did suggest that, or I certainly was part of talking them out of it, cuz I remember it.
02:40:28 remember it. I'll come to that in in a second if I may. We'll take it step by step, please.
02:40:36 Now, Mr. Taylor's evidence and I think the evidence you just gave us is that you were present that night. Yes or no answer to this question, please.
02:40:45 please. Was MT the person who proposed the suicide vest stunt? No.
02:40:51 Please, could I ask you to write down the name of the person who did raise it, but do not say that name out loud, please.
02:41:13 Thank you.
02:41:39 Again, being careful about privacy. Mhm.
02:41:43 Mhm. How well did you know the person whose name you'd written down? Very well. As aside from Guy, I was probably the the best friend of his in Global Islamic Assistance. How certain are you that the suicide
02:41:54 How certain are you that the suicide bomb was proposed by that individual? I'm absolutely certain. In your view, would HN118 have known that individual at the time? Yes, he would he would have at the
02:42:06 Yes, he would he would have at the the time, um yes.
02:42:10 Okay, again, being careful of privacy. I think I know I'm trying to think of the time when why you think that might be the case? Um what why in HN118 Why HN118
02:42:19 Why HN118 Um well, because because the person we're talking about uh was was it got became very involved with us. Okay.
02:42:25 us. Okay. And I was I said I'm not sure on the timeline.
02:42:27 timeline. X, we're being very careful about privacy. I don't want to Yeah, I'm not sure on the timelines. I'm not sure about um
02:42:34 about um when the person we're talking about suggested this, whether HN118 knew him then.
02:42:40 then. Um but he would have known about him with him being involved in the group in the time he was in the group. Thank you. As far as you are aware, Mhm.
02:42:50 Mhm. did this proposed plan ever get further than a discussion in the pub? No, because the because again, it goes back to what I was saying earlier where you make
02:42:59 you make obviously it was a completely crazy idea.
02:43:02 idea. The person we're talking about has got a background that's kind of a little bit theatrical. Okay, sorry. And okay, let me concentrate on this bit then. So,
02:43:13 then. So, no, because again at this time you've to remember we'd had demonstrations where people are in Genoa someone was shot and killed. In Gothenburg someone was shot. So, we're in a situation where people actually have been hurt and I and we
02:43:26 actually have been hurt and I and we would not This goes back to what I was saying about us not putting people in a bad situation. There's If you have Ariel Sharon coming to England, he would no doubt have armed Mossad agents with him, I presume. And doing
02:43:38 agents with him, I presume. And doing something like that would absolutely be crazy. Um so, and the person we're talking about certainly did have a lot of crazy ideas. Um they didn't go beyond this kind of
02:43:51 Um they didn't go beyond this kind of dressing up sort of stuff, you know? But we talked about it because it because of for those reasons. Thank you very much, Mr. Douglas. Mr. Taylor told the inquiry on Monday
02:44:02 Mr. Taylor told the inquiry on Monday that he dissuaded the activist that you said a bit and that HN118 may have said a sentence or two.
02:44:12 or two. Now, HN118's account is that he and Mr. Taylor dissuaded the individual from pursuing the stunt. Uh again, so
02:44:20 so HN118's
02:44:22 HN118's was not a friend of the person we're talking about not like me and my me and Guy were.
02:44:30 What was said to the activist in order to dissuade him from the stunt? Well, just that we would, you know, that it's too I don't recall the exact words, but you know, it would have been that, you know, that this is just too mad. This is
02:44:42 know, that this is just too mad. This is crazy. Like you're not you're not uh I mean, it's not really something we would do either. I mean, you know, to dress up as a suicide bomber is not really um a good idea in general, I would say. Uh
02:44:55 a good idea in general, I would say. Uh And so it's just not as much as we might want to do stunts or create theatrical spectacles, it's not something that I think, you know, is it would be appropriate. And as I say in in
02:45:07 would be appropriate. And as I say in in this situation, I think it would have been very dangerous.
02:45:19 Was this or a similar stunt ever discussed again to your knowledge? No.
02:45:25 Finally on this topic, please, could we show MPS 0527121?
02:45:33 This is not in your bundle, I'm afraid. This is So this is in HN118's bundle B136.
02:45:44 Now, this is a document you may have seen when it was shown to Mr. Taylor on Monday
02:45:49 Monday about money
02:45:56 If we could go to page two, please.
02:46:04 Now, this is a document that we understand from the from the foot of the document is is drafted by HN118. I'll give you a time to have a look at the section, but I'll take you to
02:46:15 I'll take you to the first paragraph under the Ariel Sharon setting.
02:46:28 In that section, there's a description of MT as a young Arab man. Mhm.
02:46:34 Mhm. Does that description apply to either MT or the person whose name you've written down? No.
02:46:42 Looking at the second paragraph of the Sharon section at the end of the second line there is a reference to MT constructing a highly realistic dummy bomb vest
02:46:54 a highly realistic dummy bomb vest comprising red colored vertical tubes affixed to a green canvas vest with electrical cabling and pull lanyard. Did you ever see a fake suicide vest?
02:47:05 Did you ever see a fake suicide vest? No, and I would suggest the very extensive description is is in inverse proportion to how much this is made up. I mean, I I wasn't aware of this till Monday cuz this is not included in my my tranche of
02:47:17 this is not included in my my tranche of documents I was sent. And I have to say I was quite shocked at this um whole story, which is what I think it is.
02:47:25 is. Um
02:47:25 Um for the reasons I've outlined that we as much as we might have been uh up for kind of doing theatrical stunts or
02:47:34 stunts or things that you know uh
02:47:36 uh would have caused you know spectacle in some sort of way this is crazy. This goes into sort of um it yeah, it's just completely mad. You know?
02:47:46 You know? And then with I you know, I mean when we had the discussion to talk the person out of it that we that we talked out of it, you know, we would have said the same things, you know, and and the good thing about the person that we talked to
02:47:57 talked to uh about it was that you know, he list he respected us and listened and would listen to us. Um and um
02:48:06 Um and um and you know, obviously took that on board. I mean, there's this to me is all made up. I know that that you know, that might be half of some people to doubt but
02:48:16 doubt but it's it's just to me like complete fantasy.
02:48:19 fantasy. Finally on this document in that third paragraph
02:48:24 paragraph there's um a reference to dummy the dummy vest was retrieved by the officer and destroyed. I take it that you never saw H 118 retrieve
02:48:35 that you never saw H 118 retrieve No, because it because it said it didn't exist. and destroyed. Didn't exist. You know, we like even if someone had made one,
02:48:42 one, the person we're talking about had made it and and we would just say that's ridiculous. You know, it just didn't this just didn't happen. It's crazy.
02:48:52 Returning to governance of GR,
02:48:57 GR, I'd like to ask you about the and the SWP caucus. Could we please display MPS 001145?
02:49:10 So, that's B 30 in the document.
02:49:43 Apologies, I must have given you the wrong reference there.
02:49:54 When it comes up,
02:49:59 MPS
02:50:04 20011 So, MP
02:50:08 So, MP 20011445.
02:50:13 Should be a collection of intelligence reports. Thank you very much. If you could go to page five in the lower half of that document.
02:50:31 There's a reference here to a working meeting
02:50:34 meeting of Globalize Resistance Uh, took place Sunday, the 19th of January, 2003. The report sets out details of when the meeting will take place and
02:50:45 of when the meeting will take place and says in the second paragraph, uh,
02:50:49 uh, that
02:50:51 that the meeting will be preceded by a closed caucus of prominent SWP globalized members and possibly a brief meeting of the full steering committee.
02:51:01 Uh, you are named as one of the three SWP globalized members for the pre-meeting. Mhm. Would closed caucuses take place before working meetings? I wouldn't I don't think I'd call it a
02:51:12 I wouldn't I don't think I'd call it a closed caucus. I mean, it's just a caucus. So, it's like I said earlier, like if you're in a political group, you obviously have an idea of strategies and the things that you want to achieve
02:51:23 you want to achieve within an organization. So, for instance, if you were a Labour Party member and you're part of the trade union Unison, you would want certain things that the Labour Party would want from Unison as an example. And that is just standard
02:51:34 an example. And that is just standard political ways of operating. So, there was a sort of suggestion here that again there's this sort of idea that there's a secret club behind the the real thing or whatever. And that
02:51:45 the real thing or whatever. And that would have just been us getting together and having a chat and thinking about, you know, I don't know, there was a demonstration coming up. You know, what do we what do we want or what do we think and strategizing. It
02:51:56 what do we think and strategizing. It would still be the case that when we went into the committee meeting, you've got a load of people in there that aren't don't share our politics and would have to be persuaded if in our case or they've tried to persuade us things. But even then, I don't think
02:52:07 things. But even then, I don't think that
02:52:08 that the steering committee wasn't, like I said, it wasn't that much of a um it wasn't that much of a place where there was huge disagreements cuz most of the people on it kind of broadly agreed with the globalists with the resistance
02:52:19 with the globalists with the resistance idea. They broadly agreed that what we were all trying to do was make what I call the anti-capitalist movement stronger. Um, so, yes, we you know, we would meet and we would meet before a
02:52:31 would meet and we would meet before a meeting to discuss what what things that we wanted to to do. And I take it that there are only three names there. Was that the extent of the SWP? Yeah, most of the time. I mean, because uh Chris, Guy, and me were
02:52:43 because uh Chris, Guy, and me were probably the most active uh in terms of the running of in terms of the you know, the running of the the you know, part of running the GR. Um
02:52:53 Um So, yes, it would have been us. You know, I mean, that's why we would have met. And would 118 attend these? No, he wouldn't I mean, he wouldn't necessarily know of them about them. I mean, he I mean, I don't know um I mean, we might have said that we met
02:53:04 I mean, we might have said that we met before. I mean, that's why we were having I mean he does know about them. Well, I mean, again, he was spying on us, wasn't he? So,
02:53:11 So, you know, that's I don't know how he found out. I mean, you know, he could have been going through my emails for all I know. I don't know. Turning to page MPS 2019227, sir, this is B41 in the document.
02:53:32 And this is a document concerns
02:53:37 the first steering committee meeting following his election to it. The report um starts at the foot The report of the meeting itself starts at the foot of
02:53:48 meeting itself starts at the foot of page one, and there's a reference to the steering committee having been elected the previous uh
02:53:53 uh meeting during the national conference on the 21st of May, 2003. Then on page two,
02:54:00 two, you can see the 21 steering committee members
02:54:04 members attending, and your report Your report is present at the full steering committee, as is 118, as his cover name, Simon Wellings. Mhm. But if we return in this document to the head of page one, there's another
02:54:16 to the head of page one, there's another report about a GR pre-steering committee meeting for the SWP members. It refers to Guy Taylor calling a pre-meeting on the 20th of May, the day
02:54:28 pre-meeting on the 20th of May, the day before the meeting we just looked at. And in paragraphs three to five it says this, paragraph three, the existence of these pre-meetings is extremely significant when considering how Globalise makes its decisions, a
02:54:39 how Globalise makes its decisions, a process that you would have that you would that sorry, a process that it would have you believe is entirely open and democratic. Paragraph four, in fact, these pre-meetings exist only to predict problem areas of policy and strategy
02:54:51 problem areas of policy and strategy that may be brought up by non-SWP members of the steering committee. It goes without saying that they're kept strictly secret. Paragraph five, in practice, Guy Taylor and Chris Nineham work through a lengthy
02:55:02 and Chris Nineham work through a lengthy agenda and basically apply a what if question to each agenda item that they want to force through at the next steering committee meeting. The pre-meetings are all about protecting the SWP's position within Globalise as a
02:55:15 the SWP's position within Globalise as a whole. Needless to say, the existence of these meetings would be a huge embarrassment if other non-SWP members of the steering committee were to learn of them.
02:55:25 of them. Was this the purpose of those pre-meetings to anticipate challenges? Well, yeah, but that's that's what you mean by getting together and strategizing, you know, what you're what you're thinking, clarifying what you're
02:55:36 thinking, clarifying what you're thinking with others, and then thinking about what you're going to propose to others. I mean, the process was open and democratic in the the steering committees were, but there were people on our steering committee who were involved in other
02:55:47 committee who were involved in other organizations that no doubt thought, well, what can what do we want in Globalise systems? I mean, that is a standard that is politics. It's not anything weird. And again, it's this
02:55:58 anything weird. And again, it's this continual
02:55:59 continual tone or this continual attempt to make out that there's some Machiavellian secret layer behind the thing that people don't know. Well, that's where
02:56:11 people don't know. Well, that's where the huge embarrassment thing comes in. And they And that that in a sense is something to do with us not being legitimate political actors in some sort of a sense of like that we're planning violence or whatever it might
02:56:24 planning violence or whatever it might be, yeah? And you know, as I understand the position you just outlined, there weren't secrets and they weren't going to be announced publicly. they weren't secret It's not like we would say um oh, we're all going to go and have a I mean, why would you tell
02:56:36 and have a I mean, why would you tell someone who's not in your political party that you're having a meeting? Like, do you know what I mean? It's not It's not that they weren't It's not that they were secret, but it's just that there's no As I say, it's just standard political
02:56:48 As I say, it's just standard political the the way it's standard way you operate in politics. I don't It's not a a weird thing. If I could move on now, please. Um please, can we display MPS 20011518
02:57:00 please, can we display MPS 20011518 B31
02:57:02 B31 um and page four of that document when we get there, please. Which is part of a report setting out GR priorities during an organizing meeting on the 19th of January 2003.
02:57:29 And we Yeah, we can see the the meeting of the group of eight G8 you're described as being the globalize point man for demonstrations at the G8 conference in Evian 2003. Now, were you
02:57:40 conference in Evian 2003. Now, were you the lead organizer for globalize for that event? Yeah, I was the one that went out to the meetings in France, yes. And what did that involve? It did It went uh getting on an easyJet flight, going to France,
02:57:51 going to France, uh finding the meeting room, sitting in a a room with a load of activists from France and other countries for about 6 hours,
02:57:58 hours, talking what we're going to do on the demonstration, uh uh trying to work out what we can do, and then coming home. And you say in your witness statement at paragraph 14 on page six that the
02:58:10 paragraph 14 on page six that the reality of the role was that it wasn't worthy of the point man description. Why do you say that? Well, because again, as you see all the way through he's It must be because he's a police officer. All the way through his sort of descriptions, there are these
02:58:22 descriptions, there are these militarized descriptions. So, I looked up what a picket was. I didn't actually know what it was. It's someone that goes off with the head of the head of an army to see, you know, it's like this militarized description. Now, okay, I
02:58:33 militarized description. Now, okay, I might call myself a militant, which I know is also a militarized kind of term. But, like it's it's sort of It makes it sound
02:58:40 sound I mean, it makes it sound like I'm kind of quite sexy and like I like I'm doing something. I mean, it's kind of quite exciting, doesn't it? You know what I mean? But, like I said, the reality is um it's about going to very long
02:58:51 um it's about going to very long meetings to try and work out what we're going to do. And obviously, in that meeting I would have put forward the Global Resistance perspective, which in broad sense, which would have come from discussions from the committee, was that
02:59:03 discussions from the committee, was that we were
02:59:04 we were absolutely actively involved and we will bring people from England. And that if if we can do direct action on this demonstration, this is where we block the bridges in Evian, then we wish to do
02:59:15 the bridges in Evian, then we wish to do that. And and the French activists very much and the German activists and all the other activists very much wanted to do that as well. Um so, it was a very successful meeting, I thought. But, not worthy of the Well, not I mean, again, it's again, to me,
02:59:28 not I mean, again, it's again, to me, it's like these the
02:59:30 the I just what I find quite disturbing about this reporting is that the fact that people are reading this
02:59:36 this and it make It's kind of making out that I'm somehow, like I say on the verge of being an armed terrorist or something. You know what I mean? It's It's got that kind of feel all the way through. That kind of uh what we're up
02:59:49 through. That kind of uh what we're up to is somehow not uh acceptable or legitimate political activity. Now, if we could move now to MPS 2029139
03:00:03 Now, this is a report again about 2003 DSEI protest. And if we look at the text at the at the head of page one
03:00:15 and top half.
03:00:18 Don't think we need to spend very long on it, but again that second paragraph, there's a reference to a secret closed meeting to include only a select few party activists. This is where the real decisions will be made.
03:00:30 where the real decisions will be made. And as ever the position of the SWP protected and enhanced. It was
03:00:36 It was I'll just
03:00:37 I'll just No, don't worry. Sorry. Sorry. I thought you'd stopped. Starting with the comment that there's a secret closed meeting and real decisions made there. In your statement you say there were no secret meetings.
03:00:48 meetings. Um
03:00:49 Um Well, it Well, it's not Sorry, are you finished? Sorry. Interrupt. Um it it is this the same group that we're seeing described? Yeah, it's not Again, it's not that they're secret. You know, it's not like that we're worried that people found out that
03:01:02 we're worried that people found out that we've met before the meeting. It's It's You know, we're just part of a group that has a particular perspective and that we want to, you know, put that forward in the group. And the thing is
03:01:13 forward in the group. And the thing is with the revolutionary left group of distance, it was such a sort of informal group in a way that kind of any as long as it was wasn't completely mad like some of the stuff we've just described or just just talked about, kind of people any people
03:01:25 talked about, kind of people any people involved in the global socialist group could kind of take do any kind of political action they wanted to do. It wasn't It wasn't that the SWP people were the only people who got their way. And And And even that is like kind of
03:01:38 And And And even that is like kind of distorting it because all we were trying to do was think about how did How can we make these things successful? You know, we're not I'm not doing it for I'm not giving up my evenings and weekends for a laugh. I
03:01:49 evenings and weekends for a laugh. I want to make this stuff successful. Thank you. Secret or not, was there a meeting to your recollection with Guy Taylor Chris Harman?
03:01:57 Harman? probably was. Yeah, because as I say, we would we would caucus, which is what That's what I call it. You know, you caucus with people. But not something where all these where secret meet where secret it's not this idea that again that he I
03:02:08 it's not this idea that again that he I mean this to me is him justifying his spying. To me, this is him just you justifying his spying by saying that he is finding out about stuff that you can't find out about and I'm going
03:02:20 you can't find out about and I'm going to tell you, yeah? And that's just not true because if you you know, say if you become a member of the SWP and you want to get involved in globalization, you would come along to these things, too. It's not like it was a a weird secret thing that only Guy
03:02:32 a a weird secret thing that only Guy Taylor, Chris Knight, and me knew about, you know?
03:02:35 you know? Okay.
03:02:36 Okay. Moving now to another document, MPS 20011658.
03:02:43 Page 33, sir.
03:02:48 And uh this is appears to be dated the 10th of February 2003 and it's a report about a Stop the War demo in 2003. Page one, fifth paragraph. The report says that in conversation Taylor has
03:02:59 says that in conversation Taylor has opined that anything could happen on Saturday and while separating any fantasy talk about insurrection from the like
03:03:06 like and the like from the fact is not difficult, it is certain that GR will seek to exploit any disorder that does occur. If buildings or spaces are occupied, GR will turn up and seek to exploit the situation.
03:03:18 and seek to exploit the situation. If public disorder occurs, they will get to the scene and attempt to defend the demonstrators, i.e. they will attack the police if they have sufficient numbers. From your experience of GR
03:03:29 From your experience of GR demonstrations, do you recognize these tactics? I categorically and absolutely 100%
03:03:39 100% we would never ever agree that we would attack the police, right? That is absolute madness. It is not what we're about. We are political activists that are trying to bring about
03:03:51 activists that are trying to bring about political change. I do not want to fight with the police. I wish we lived in a world where there weren't police forces, right? I do The aim is never to attack the police. The bit The only bits in this that are
03:04:03 The bit The only bits in this that are in remotely true was if say some other activists that we knew would occupy the building, we would support them, right? And that would not mean coming down and attacking the police. But the police on
03:04:14 attacking the police. But the police on these things You remember this is a time, and it still happens now, where the police would often come out in full riot gear with weapons and helm crash helmets. The idea that that me, an
03:04:25 helmets. The idea that that me, an unarmed person, would organize to attack the police just generally, but it's specifically in that situation, it's utter fantasy. And this is to me, again,
03:04:37 utter fantasy. And this is to me, again, this is him making up stuff to justify this unjustifiable deploy- deployment. You know, we What does it say here, look? Uh if public order dis- occurs on a
03:04:48 Uh if public order dis- occurs on a demonstration, in my experience, it's because of what the police have done. It's generally the police attack us, and then that's what kicks off. I've also been on lots of things where agent provocateurs that I've seen go behind
03:04:59 provocateurs that I've seen go behind police lines, come back out, and attack people on demonstrations to create disorder happening. Now, I'm not saying there's there can be no disorder that comes from ordinary activists or people on a protest. But the idea that that we
03:05:12 on a protest. But the idea that that we could control that, or that, you know, we're just waiting for disorder to occur, to me, is as I say, it's complete fantasy.
03:05:21 fantasy. Thank you. So, I think we just There's a lot to get through this week. Yeah, yeah, sorry. You just You just really angers me this sort of It's It's extremely useful, but there's more to cover. Yeah, okay. Um
03:05:31 Um Orange flares, staying with the same document,
03:05:34 document, page one, foot of the page, final paragraph, it says this: Noel Douglas has reportedly obtained a number of orange handheld flares of the type often seen at Holland football matches, and continues in his
03:05:45 football matches, and continues in his attempts to attain theatrical maroons or some other loud form of pyrotechnic device to use on the demo. Now, I understand from your statement at paragraph 19, you disagree with this paragraph of the report. but
03:05:57 with this paragraph of the report. but if I could just have some short questions and short answers if you can. Yeah. Did you obtain or plan to obtain orange flares as described here? No. Was this a tactic ever adopted by
03:06:08 No. Was this a tactic ever adopted by others in GR? No. Did you attempt to obtain a theatrical maroon, which I understand is a stage pyrotechnic that makes a flash and a bang? And as I said in my statement, I had to look up what theatrical maroon was. You
03:06:19 look up what theatrical maroon was. You actually have to be trained to use those apparently, I mean even to buy them. So, no. This is again is total and utter fantasy
03:06:27 fantasy from Simon Wellings.
03:06:32 I mean again again I don't think the use of a flare is particularly a problematic thing, you know what I mean, but it but this is just all nonsense.
03:06:41 nonsense. Stencils, please. Please, can we look at MPS 2029321 B50,
03:06:48 B50, which is dated the 9th of October 2003.
03:06:53 And if we could show this report starting the very foot of page two, and then overleaf on page three.
03:07:01 Second paragraph of the report records that you've designed a range of stencil templates that will be posted on the GR website for activists to use with spray paint. Did you produce stencils as as described
03:07:13 Did you produce stencils as as described here?
03:07:14 here? a stencil design against George Bush. So, I think that's the only one I can recall.
03:07:19 recall. What was the purpose of those stencils? to whatever people want to do with them. I mean, you know, we put it on the website.
03:07:24 website. Um I'm not in control of what someone might do with the stencil. But they could have been used for spray paint. It could have been, for sure. That's the suggestion in this report. Yeah.
03:07:34 Yeah. Which would be criminal damage. Again.
03:07:37 Again. Or could be. What it could be. I mean, I'm not in control of what people do. I mean, people fly post posters and do all sorts of thing. I mean, my posters have been fly posted. I didn't fly post them. People can do all sorts of things with the things that I've done. Those
03:07:48 the things that I've done. Those stencils you said were on the website? They were on the website for a while, yes.
03:07:51 yes. So, anyone could have found them? Yes, yeah. Yeah, again, that was all open.
03:07:58 There was There was not, to be clear, on the website there was not an instruction for someone to use them uh
03:08:05 uh in in certain forms of criminal damage. It was just literally the design. If it were to say that HM118 reporting might be relevant to prevent criminal damage during demonstrations, what would you say?
03:08:16 you say? Well, again, I don't I don't know what um
03:08:21 um Again,
03:08:22 Again, the demonstrations have been on, you know, you're you're not If someone I mean a
03:08:27 mean a you know, you don't know if someone smashed a McDonald's window, I'm not in control of that. I mean, it's not It's not something that I would do. So, you know, it's not something that uh
03:08:35 uh I can't talk for other people, can I? So.
03:08:38 So. Mr. Douglas, in the reports, there are two reports which refer to and to confirm you are happy to deal with this in open that refer to
03:08:50 with this in open that refer to substance abuse. Uh so, I'm not going to take the the general um I'm not going to to read them out, but so the references for your
03:09:01 them out, but so the references for your note are MPS 307994B1
03:09:05 and MPS 203716B60.
03:09:11 Now, Mr. Douglas, you've seen This is redacted in the published documents. You've seen underneath those.
03:09:20 Both of these reports contain quite serious
03:09:23 serious allegations of drug misuse. My question to you first is are they accurate?
03:09:30 accurate? They are not accurate, no. In so far as they are not accurate, is it an exaggeration or is it a fabrication? It's a a complete It's a very much an exaggeration and partly a
03:09:42 very much an exaggeration and partly a fabrication, I suppose, because of that. Bearing in mind we are still in a public hearing.
03:09:48 hearing. As far as you are comfortable in this setting,
03:09:51 setting, would you like to explain how it is so Yeah, I'm happy to say that in the past in terms of the Can I say what's part of what's been listed to
03:10:01 listed to I don't mind saying it publicly. It It It's a matter for you. I don't mind. I mean I you know Um just to play there's a range of drugs that are listed that I was a What's the word? Passionate user of or
03:10:13 What's the word? Passionate user of or something? Um out of that quite extensive list, I'm quite happy to say that in the past I have taken cannabis and ecstasy. I'm part of the rave generation, so that I
03:10:24 part of the rave generation, so that I do have some usual for people of my age. But the rest of it is completely made up and again this made me very angry when I read it because it's
03:10:33 it's Well, there's two things. Um I actually didn't get the full information which I've only seen this morning, where I can see you made two claims about me, where you list slightly different drugs that I'm supposedly a
03:10:44 different drugs that I'm supposedly a enthusiastic you consumer of. Um It's really outrageous and again to me this is about portraying me as some sort of crazy out of control person. Now in
03:10:56 of crazy out of control person. Now in this era that we're talking about I was I had a job and I was doing activism and we were you know it was a lot of work that we were doing. The idea that I could have
03:11:09 doing. The idea that I could have an intensive habit of that amount of drugs, right? And still do what I did is completely a complete fantasy and to me again it's about him
03:11:20 again it's about him uh
03:11:22 uh embellishing his reports to make them make him seem I mean again I don't really know why this has been reported anyway, but again it's I I presume it's to besmirch my character basically.
03:11:33 to besmirch my character basically. Um and I really take offense to it because the the drugs he lists outside of what I've described I wouldn't take. I mean it's it's just ridiculous. And to think that I would take all of them and
03:11:44 think that I would take all of them and be an enthusiastic user of all of those drugs,
03:11:48 drugs, I think most rational people would think is ridiculous anyway.
03:11:54 Specifically about that being recorded in special branch reports. Mhm.
03:11:59 Mhm. Do you have any comment on your reaction to learning that? Well, I was just I was um like I said, it was kind of weird in my in the documents I got sent cuz
03:12:10 documents I got sent cuz it like I could see it was re- redacted and I didn't quite understand that the redacted bit was in the appendix on my reports. And so I in my first response to inquiry, I asked why I cuz I could see it was about me. Yeah.
03:12:21 see it was about me. Yeah. This thing about Guy and Bruce I thought he was being worried about me. So I wondered what it was. And then it came back response came back that it's in the appendix so you can see. And I I mean, it's I literally only saw that probably about a month ago. Yes. So Mr. Mr.
03:12:32 about a month ago. Yes. So Mr. Mr. Douglas,
03:12:33 Douglas, that's a very it's a interesting point I want to explore but you referred to um when you initially saw it in your statement. Perhaps we could bring that up on screen. And you cuz because you addressed it and if there's anything
03:12:44 addressed it and if there's anything that you want to say about what is written in the statement, we'll ask you to explore it. It's probably useful to have.
03:12:48 have. Yeah. That is page 40
03:12:53 of Mr. Douglas's statement. It's actually the subsequent is the paragraph after paragraph 36.
03:13:02 Paragraph 40, sorry.
03:13:23 Mhm.
03:13:26 Yeah. So that's you know, as I said, I the what confused me because I didn't know the actual allegation or I wasn't aware where the information was. I I thought what on earth is this about? Like, you know, and I
03:13:38 Like, you know, and I even spoke to guy about it cuz I was like, I don't remember you ever being worried about me or anything, you know? And like I say, to me hear the irony that he claims I had a paranoid outlook when he's spying on me,
03:13:51 when he's spying on me, which obviously is the thing that would make you paranoid. Um
03:13:55 Um you know, again it's Again, it's just like his reporting is full of this stuff. It's full of I don't know whether he was on drugs in the evening and making up stuff when he was writing it. And that's what it seems to me. It's like he's
03:14:06 me. It's like he's he's just crazy claims, you know? If we could now move to a new document, um
03:14:14 um MPS 20010753.
03:14:18 This is B23 in the bundle.
03:14:25 Now, this is a list of telephone subscriber checks. And if we could move to page five.
03:14:37 We see at the about 2/3 of the way down the page Neil Douglas. And we can see that various columns. H118 is the requesting officer.
03:14:48 officer. 060302
03:14:50 060302 is the day that that was made. Now, I don't need to take it to take you to it, but um so document B4 MPS 0008177 is a report by H118,
03:15:04 is a report by H118, which includes details of your mobile number. And we can see in this document that we have up that a subscriber check is performed. What was your reaction to
03:15:16 What was your reaction to learning that your mobile number had been recorded and a subscriber check undertaken? Well, this is just disturbing, isn't it? You know, I've I'm not doing anything illegal.
03:15:27 I've I'm not doing anything illegal. I've not committed any offense. Um why is my phone being um uh uh tracked or whatever it is that's going on here, you know? Like I say, nothing nothing we did
03:15:40 Like I say, nothing nothing we did is secret. Everything we did was out in the open in terms of the meetings we were holding, the places we were going, whatever. So, what on earth justification is there for this level of surveillance? This is
03:15:51 for this level of surveillance? This is like something that the Stasi would do in Eastern Germany, you know? It's like uh
03:15:57 uh you know, there's no justification for me for me for this at all. Thank you. Moving now to um
03:16:05 um January 2004. In January 2004, HM118 inadvertently left an answer phone message on an activist's voicemail during a meeting with um desk officers from Special
03:16:17 with um desk officers from Special Branch's C Squad.
03:16:21 We heard some evidence about that on Monday with Mr. Taylor. Mr. Taylor said it took some time to properly attribute the recording to HM118. When were you first made aware that this recording existed?
03:16:32 recording existed? Um I can't remember the first time exactly, but obviously Guy sort of told me about it and we and I believe I listened to it in the office. Mr. Taylor said, I think, that he played it to anyone that would come to the
03:16:43 it to anyone that would come to the office.
03:16:43 office. I'm obviously you know, obviously he would have played it to me and we would listen to it. Um What were your thoughts when you first heard it?
03:16:50 heard it? Well, obviously again, it was you know, we we'd off I think we probably I mean, Guy probably would have worked out it was a police some kind of police situation cuz you can hear
03:16:59 can hear the whatever it is CO11 going on in the background and codes, names, whatever. So, it was obviously um
03:17:05 um Well, I suppose you know, quite confusing cuz you wonder what it what it was, you know what I mean? That's you know, that's the the interesting thing. And when you first heard it, you didn't identify Well, yeah, again, I mean, you heard the recording on Monday. I mean,
03:17:17 heard the recording on Monday. I mean, it's obviously not a particularly clear line. And of course, at this time we weren't expecting that Simon or anyone was a undercover police officer spying on us. So, it wasn't um
03:17:29 wasn't um it wasn't like you listen to it and went, "Oh, that's him, you know." Um it we just listened to it and we were trying to think what it could be and you know do you know what I mean, that kind of thing. At paragraph 21 of your
03:17:40 of thing. At paragraph 21 of your statement, you say uh it was clearly his voice and his phrasing. He would have thing he would have things he said, as we all do, that identify him.
03:17:51 we all do, that identify him. And he was clearly in a police officer with police officers talking about people in photos and identifying them. Yeah, because once once Guy had the situation he talked about on Monday where he had taken a call from him and
03:18:03 where he had taken a call from him and then listened to him, realized it was him,
03:18:05 him, then we listened to it knowing we think it's him cuz obviously we still didn't know for sure it was him, you know, in terms of but we but you could hear cuz he would say I don't know he had a he'd say things like good day, buddy.
03:18:16 he'd say things like good day, buddy. There was kind of various ways like anyone talks and you and you and as soon as we kind of as soon as it was kind of worked out and you listen to you think, "Yeah, oh god, that is Simon, you know." Now,
03:18:27 Now, you say in uh paragraph 21 also that you were convinced he was a police spy from that phone recording. When did you come to the conclusion that the voice on the recording was HN118's? Well, after Guy
03:18:40 recording was HN118's? Well, after Guy had had kind of the say the situation he described on Monday. Yes.
03:18:43 Yes. So, and I and I thought he was a police spy just because I thought
03:18:49 you know, I thought it was that was more likely than him being a kind of activist that had been pulled into a police station. Do you see what I mean? It's sort of Yes. that seems to me the more unlikely situation.
03:19:01 unlikely situation. And so it was what it was genuinely generally agreed within Global Resistance that the that the recording was of HN118 or was it was it Guy and everyone went along with it? Um from what I remember, before he was
03:19:12 Um from what I remember, before he was confronted, I don't know. I mean I mean you'd have to maybe refer to what Guy said.
03:19:17 said. I mean I know I heard it. I presume most of the other people in the group heard it as well. Um but I can't I couldn't say for sure that everyone in the group had heard it before he was confronted. I'm not sure.
03:19:28 before he was confronted. I'm not sure. Now, this incident took place whilst you were on Are you a steering committee member as was HN118? And
03:19:36 And I take it that And we have a we have a note from 24th of April 2004. Uh we don't need to go to it, but the reference is MPS2034667B57.
03:19:49 Uh of you and HN118 attending steering committee meeting. So, I take it that by then there'd be no attribution to 118 and that until he's confronted effectively yes. he proceeded as normal. Is that
03:20:01 yes. he proceeded as normal. Is that right?
03:20:08 Now, I understand I'd like to show you HN118's account. Please, that's MPS 0721966. This is an account, I believe, he made to Uphearn.
03:20:23 So, that is C8 in the bundle. Page five, top paragraph, please.
03:20:40 And we see that that is an account of the confrontation outside the Festival Hall.
03:20:44 Hall. And and if we look down the fourth line from the bottom of that extract, he went over that and Guy was there along with Noel Douglas, privacy and privacy. Now, we understand from your statement and from Mr. Taylor's evidence that you were
03:20:55 from Mr. Taylor's evidence that you were not present during the confrontation. I wish I was, but I wasn't there, no.
03:21:02 I don't I don't know why I didn't go. I mean, I would have known that Guy was going to do that, but I must have been possibly doing something else or whatever. I presume there's no reason why you can't I presume you can't assist us as to why HN118 would have thought
03:21:15 us as to why HN118 would have thought that you were there. I I've no idea, really. I mean, again, this was a very busy time cuz we were leading up to organizing the European Social Forum. We went to Royal Festival a lot. Uh like I said, I do wish I was there. I mean, it's it's one of the things I'm annoyed
03:21:26 it's it's one of the things I'm annoyed I missed, but um I would definitely I categorically was not there.
03:21:31 We We also heard about a meeting on the 9th of November between HM118 after his expulsion with with an individual whose whose identity is redacted to preserve her privacy. That's B61 in the bundle,
03:21:43 her privacy. That's B61 in the bundle, sir. MPS 2039616.
03:21:48 Um if we could bring that up, please. This document is dated the day after that uh meeting seemed to to to took place on the 10th of November 2004. And appears to have been written by
03:22:00 And appears to have been written by HM118 himself. In terms of establishing the timeline, HM118 was asked to leave Globalize Resistance in August 2004. Mhm. Um
03:22:11 Mhm. Um and this meeting takes place in November. So, about 3 months gone from being asked to leave. At page one, uh we can see the background to this meeting in a paragraph three, 118 explains he'd kept
03:22:23 paragraph three, 118 explains he'd kept in sporadic touch with individuals who had suggested that she didn't believe uh
03:22:28 uh with with the individual who whom he met whom he met who suggested he didn't believe HM118 was an informant. Paragraph four refers to meeting in a vegan restaurant in Soho.
03:22:42 He then says the third bullet point on page one refers to activist forwarding emails from 118 to members of the steering committee showing that he had repeatedly asked Taylor for various information
03:22:54 asked Taylor for various information including a copy of the recording and the date the call was made. Were you one of the people who received any forwarded emails from 118? No.
03:23:05 No, not as far as I remember. The final bullet point on page one refers to activists seeing HM118 at the European Social Forum. Now, I know you were involved with that.
03:23:16 involved with that. Um
03:23:17 Um but I understand that you didn't see him. Now, this is this again to me is where he's going to the realms of fantasy. So, my last contact with him was I was up at Alexandra Palace
03:23:28 was I was up at Alexandra Palace preparing some stuff for the European Social Forum, which I said was an enormous event. Lot We were organizing the art
03:23:35 the art within the within the uh palace. And we've got another activist called Simon in our group. And I called what I thought I called him. And when I when I called, Simon Wellings
03:23:47 And when I when I called, Simon Wellings picked up. And I started to talk as if it was the other Simon. And Simon Wellings said to me, "No, it's Simon." And I And I realized it was Simon Wellings, and I put the phone down. And
03:23:59 Wellings, and I put the phone down. And that was the last uh contact I had with him. I never saw I'm not saying he wasn't at European Social Forum, although I'm surprised I would was I didn't see him. And I never saw him again at anything. And I am surprised at
03:24:11 again at anything. And I am surprised at all these claims he makes about oh, we all like Tim, or we had people were having a chat with him, and well, it's just nonsense. And you I mean, there were
03:24:20 were as we've just ascertained, there were certain people in the group that were upset and didn't think he was a spy or, you know, whatever. But um but no, I never saw him again.
03:24:32 The There's a bullet point The first bullet point on page two, fourth bullet point, refers to you saying that you told your colleagues that HN118 sounded relaxed and cheerful. As I said, I called I called who I
03:24:44 As I said, I called I called who I thought the other Simon. Uh
03:24:47 Uh he picked up. I started to talk as if it was the other Simon. He said, "No, it's Simon."
03:24:52 Simon." And I put the phone down. And that was it. I would not have entered into a conversation with him, obviously. Yeah. You say in your statement, in retrospect, you think it was a mistake not to let other activists know your suspicions that he was a policeman.
03:25:05 suspicions that he was a policeman. Uh why didn't you do this? Uh we didn't do it because one, we weren't sure and we don't want to spread paranoia, to go back to the paranoia point, with people in the movement. I mean, you know, we're not naive.
03:25:17 know, we're not naive. We know that there could be police spies in any political movement. Um, so we weren't sure. That was the key thing and we didn't want to spread If I'd have seen him
03:25:26 seen him at the ESF or at the G8 in Scotland the next year, I would absolutely have told people
03:25:32 people that that this guy is dodgy and warned them against him. Uh, but as I said, I never saw him, so So I do regret, but but it's a regret that comes, you know, with hindsight.
03:25:43 that comes, you know, with hindsight. You know, I mean, it was At the time we did discuss it, but as I say, we didn't want to And like I say, I never saw him again, so I didn't think he was an issue. I mean, all this stuff he makes about being involved in dissent, I think
03:25:54 about being involved in dissent, I think is also quite largely probably made up, to be honest with you. May I ask, why not share it with a caveat?
03:26:02 a caveat? Well, again, because it was it wasn't like we were just busy. I mean, the you know, the European Social Forum, as I said to you, was 35,000 people from all over Europe and you know, lots of intensive meetings at town
03:26:13 intensive meetings at town the mayor's office in down at London Bridge, wherever it is. Um, and you know, we were so busy doing that. I mean, bear in mind, this is voluntary activism. I'm not being paid to do this activism. I'm doing it on top
03:26:24 to do this activism. I'm doing it on top of work. That it was just not, uh, you know, it was we were just busy, you know?
03:26:29 know? And like it But like I say, if if uh, I'd have seen him, you know, if I'd seen him at the ESF, I would definitely have made a thing about it. And And I'd say, if I'd have known he was still hanging around as he claimed, I would
03:26:41 hanging around as he claimed, I would absolutely have told people. But as I say, it was I think it was a bit of a mistake on our part, but that's just come with hindsight. Impact. Page 26 of your statement, sir, page That's uh,
03:26:52 your statement, sir, page That's uh, sorry, it's a paragraph 26 of your statement at page 10 of the bundle. You say the whole experience of having SW in my life is very disturbing. But
03:27:01 But and you refer to it creating an spying on your life creating an untrue picture of you. And you comment on the extent that it goes to in terms of reporting on your romantic life, addresses, friends, and
03:27:13 romantic life, addresses, friends, and phone numbers.
03:27:17 Very briefly because I am mindful of the time.
03:27:20 time. What is it in particular you find disturbing? Well, the whole thing. I mean, I you know, this is someone I considered a friend. Um nothing we were doing was secret as he keeps claiming or
03:27:33 was secret as he keeps claiming or illegal. Everything was out in the open. It was standard political activity as far as I was concerned. Yes, it's radical politics, but it's not Um we're not criminals or anything like that. And
03:27:44 not criminals or anything like that. And you can sort of see from his And this is what I mean about his exaggera- his need for exaggeration at one level the things he's reporting are so mundane that why is he being paid to be with us and spy
03:27:55 is he being paid to be with us and spy with us all this time? Yeah? Um but then the fact that it's so mundane, I think as I say it's an inverse relationship to all this nonsense he's making up where he's making out that I'm a huge drug ad- drug
03:28:06 making out that I'm a huge drug ad- drug addict or, you know, I'm we're all on the verge of attacking the police or whatever. And the fact that this is still on record, you know, so when I got this stuff in the summer, this is obviously stored somewhere, right? Okay,
03:28:18 obviously stored somewhere, right? Okay, which I find quite shocking as well actually to be honest with you. I mean, it's I'm glad it has been stored because of this inquiry to bring it all out. But it's like we live in a liberal democracy. We We should This is
03:28:29 democracy. We We should This is This is something that say you would expect of the Stasi, isn't it? It's like there's an absolutely no justification for him to do this to me uh or anyone else.
03:28:40 else. Uh finally, there will be an opportunity for closing statements and analysis and comment on the evidence in due course. But
03:28:50 But is there any direct factual evidence that you would like the chair to understand which we haven't covered? I think
03:28:56 think only thing we haven't covered is we've got an American activist friend who I had a short relationship with who unfortunately stayed at his house uh one night before when she came to London before staying with me and we I know
03:29:08 before staying with me and we I know from my
03:29:09 from my transfer documents that he went through her passport and got her details and details of her family and I would like to flag that up because I think that that is well, it's not just
03:29:20 I think that that is well, it's not just beyond the remit of what he's doing. I mean, it's another example of the sort of um the
03:29:27 the the horrific kind of intrusion on people's lives, you know. So, I definitely I definitely want that kind of noted because she certainly did not deserve that. Um thank you very much, Mr. Douglas. So,
03:29:38 Um thank you very much, Mr. Douglas. So, those are my prepared questions. I'm I'm grateful for the indulgence that I've had a few extra minutes. Um I'm in your hands, Mr. have any reason to believe that there would be any rule 10 questions?
03:29:51 would be any rule 10 questions? There is something that needs to be considered, so yes, I'm afraid so. In which case, I will have to give you a minute or two to consider it. I'm grateful, sir. Is there likely to be any re-examination?
03:30:02 re-examination? There's an an issue that I need to discuss with counsel. Yes, of course. Um there's unlikely to be re-examination beyond that. Right. Then, I'll rise for however long you need to deal with rule 10.
03:30:12 10. So, hopefully not long.
03:32:49 Mhm.
03:38:34 Mhm.
03:40:29 Mhm.
03:42:24 Mhm.
03:44:19 Mhm.
03:46:14 Yeah. Yes. So grateful for the time. Um I have uh one question which I am asked to put and then I understand there will be re-examination during a private session. Um Mr. Douglas,
03:46:27 Um Mr. Douglas, thinking back to the individual involved in the suicide vest stunt, again mindful of privacy, please, what is the race or ethnicity of the individual
03:46:39 individual uh responsible for the suicide vest stunt that you wrote down on that paper? He's white. I I understand that you have a a few words you would like to say. Yeah, just sorry. I thought I maybe should have
03:46:51 sorry. I thought I maybe should have done it in the last bit. Um yeah, my final thing I just wanted to say was just a general thing really about this whole situation. And as I say in my prepared statement, I'm extremely proud of all the political activism I've done in my life. And I and I feel no shame
03:47:05 in my life. And I and I feel no shame about all the things that we did 20 years ago and I still continue to do political activism because I believe that it's only through ordinary people doing what we've done that have created a society where even you can have inquiries discussing these kind of
03:47:17 inquiries discussing these kind of things where justice can hopefully be served or whatever. And what I think's terrible about the this is when I looked at Simon Welling's statement, he said he was proud of what he said stopping disorder.
03:47:30 he said stopping disorder. And when 20 years ago we in the anti-capitalist movement we were arguing that if capitalism continued as it as it as it would, if it we couldn't stop it or change it in some sort of way, inequality would increase, hatred and
03:47:41 inequality would increase, hatred and division would increase, and the environment that we all depend on would become so degraded we'd put our civilization at risk. And sadly, all those things have come true. So those undercover officers, although they think
03:47:53 undercover officers, although they think they've stopped disorder through doing their activities, they've created a world I would say that is in much more disorder than it was 20 years ago. And I hope that we can build kind of political movements that can actually address that
03:48:04 movements that can actually address that and change that. And that's why I think it's this inquiry for me has been important to participate in because I think this completely unacceptable to have this level of spying over basic democratic political behavior.
03:48:17 democratic political behavior. Thank you very much, Mr. Davis.
03:48:22 I understand that you do wish to re-examine, but in private. Yes, if that's uh Of course it is. Now, because that means the room has has got to be set up and people have to be asked to leave. I'm going to
03:48:33 going to say that the private session will take place after we've had our luncheon adjournment. Um it also happens to coincide with a short private session with which the evidence of the next
03:48:44 with which the evidence of the next witness will begin and will cause the least disruption if we do it that way. I hope that doesn't cause you any inconvenience. Um because your re-examination is going to be private, that will be the last
03:48:55 to be private, that will be the last time on which I anticipate I will see you. May I thank you but in publicly for giving evidence orally to me.
03:49:04 to me. Brings matters to life and you've given me evidence about an issue that has become of importance which I must take into account. Thank you very much. Grateful to you. Thank you. Thank you.
03:49:15 Thank you. Uh we will resume at uh 1/4 past uh Sorry, we will resume at 10 past 2 with a private session. Those in the public
03:49:26 a private session. Those in the public gallery will not be admitted to the private session. Uh I don't anticipate that the two private sessions will take more than 10 minutes in total. Uh and so
03:49:37 Uh and so if those who want to continue hearing the public sessions can be ready at 1/4 past 2, you should be let in very shortly after then.
03:51:59 Mhm.
03:53:54 Mhm.
03:57:44 Mhm.
03:58:24 Mhm.