Guy Taylor provides testimony regarding his interactions with undercover officer HN118, specifically focusing on the officer's access to Globalise Resistance (GR) databases and the accuracy of intelligence reports. Taylor denies installing secret audit programs to monitor colleagues and disputes claims about planned violent or disruptive actions, attributing such reports to the officer's 'inflation and exaggeration' to justify his role.
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00:22:20 Good afternoon, everybody. This afternoon's proceedings, like this morning's, are being live transmitted but after a 10-minute delay, those with mobile telephones may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room but
00:22:33 what they hear in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography. Yes. Mr. Taylor, I would like to ask you about HN118's
00:22:46 about HN118's access to the Global Eyes Resistance computer database.
00:22:54 118 himself described how he became the Global Eyes Resistance webmaster because, as he put it his predecessor
00:23:05 because, as he put it his predecessor stepped back from activism. So if we begin with that, could you comment on the accuracy of 118's description of himself becoming the GR webmaster?
00:23:18 the GR webmaster? Um I don't think webmaster was a term we really used to describe him. There was it wasn't just him. He wasn't the master. There was a number of other people involved in that. Um certainly the person that did the website before
00:23:32 the person that did the website before had not stepped back from activism just gone and moved on to other things and then a team There's two people from the steering committee
00:23:43 the steering committee uh
00:23:44 uh 118 and another another activist who took the most the the the bulk of the work on the website and a few other people
00:23:54 people made uh contributions towards it as well.
00:23:57 well. The technical side of it was covered by those two people. Content generation was done by a larger group of people. What information would that particular
00:24:09 What information would that particular role have given 118? What what access to information being for want of a better word being webmaster? Um what access to? Well as far as the website was concerned
00:24:20 Well as far as the website was concerned it was anything we put up on there and anything that was written for it. Um although being on a computer in the office did give you access to the membership list and the uh
00:24:32 membership list and the uh the bank details and anything else. So he had access to a lot of um details about individuals who were involved in
00:24:43 involved in and many people that weren't because there was a there was a a big um list of uh people receiving our emails um which was kept on a you know we had the
00:24:55 which was kept on a you know we had the email list but we I think there was a database
00:24:58 database uh coverage of that as well. So, there was um
00:25:01 was um there's a lot of people who were just receiving our emails. Probably quite a few of his colleagues in the police, to be honest with you. And um a number of journalists and all the rest of it who were just following what we were doing
00:25:12 were just following what we were doing out of interest rather than support. So, there was a there was a lot of people's details he had access to. So, the email list, this would be an email list of everyone who is a member of Globalise Resistance?
00:25:23 of Globalise Resistance? Well, far much fur- much wider than that, because you could sign up to our emails on the website or whatever just to just to get the weekly mailing. I I did a
00:25:32 did a I did a um quite an informal kind of a weekly Well, I think it was weekly. But, probably varied, knowing me. Um uh you know, just an updates on our various campaigns and things that are
00:25:43 various campaigns and things that are happening. Activism you could get involved with. So, um
00:25:47 So, um yeah, I mean, like those those emails ended up in the media and what have you. So, there must have been a lot of journalists and everything looking at that stuff and reporting, to be honest. Give us an a very rough idea of how many
00:25:59 Give us an a very rough idea of how many email addresses would have been on the list that HN118 had access to. The number of email addresses we had um
00:26:08 um I would estimate it at this
00:26:11 this a couple of thousand. Maybe more. I can't remember, to be honest with you. The database, what information was on the database above email addresses? That was the on the database, there
00:26:23 That was the on the database, there would be
00:26:24 would be there would be um people's names and addresses and phone numbers and email addresses. Um
00:26:31 Um and
00:26:33 and uh
00:26:33 uh there was also bank records. Um I don't know whether went on the No, I don't think they they didn't go on the database. They were just You know, when people joined, we tried to get them to
00:26:45 people joined, we tried to get them to fill in a standing order to give us regular money, cuz that's what we really needed.
00:26:49 needed. Um and uh basically, yeah, that would that got sent off to the bank. Um, so I don't think that was and that wasn't actually kept on the um, on the GR office computers because
00:27:01 on the GR office computers because our
00:27:02 our treasurer was there was three three treasurers of of Global Resistance throughout its life and none of them worked in the office. So, um, that all the bank details were held elsewhere. You mentioned computers. I wonder if we
00:27:15 You mentioned computers. I wonder if we could, um, put up on screen MPS0035202. So, at your tab B236.
00:27:25 Which is a report we've dated 28th of May, 2004. I wonder if if we could turn to page two.
00:27:32 two. And it is the last report on page two.
00:27:42 So, the second paragraph, if we start from there. Whilst in the office, Taylor habitually used his own second generation iMac computer. He has recently noticed that whenever he pops
00:27:54 recently noticed that whenever he pops out of the office for a few minutes, Privacy, an occasional office volunteer, will always log out of one of the other iMacs and continue work on Taylor's own machine. This used to be a logical thing
00:28:05 machine. This used to be a logical thing to do as Taylor's computer was far faster than any of the others, but the recent installation of three other equally specified computers has made Taylor question why Privacy would do such a thing.
00:28:17 such a thing. In an effort to answer that question, Taylor has set up a secret audit program on his machine that records in a hidden folder all the programs, drives, folders, and documents accessed during
00:28:29 folders, and documents accessed during his absence. The program also monitors any internet use and any sent or received email that is accessed. Now, just pausing there, the computers that
00:28:40 just pausing there, the computers that are referred to the the iMacs, are they are they your computers or are they Global Resistance computers? Um,
00:28:48 Um, the
00:28:49 the where where it says my own second generation iMac. I Yeah, I did buy that. Um
00:28:56 Uh, we inherited two um
00:29:01 um Mac computers. Which were pretty elderly when we got hold of them, to be honest with you. So, um
00:29:07 um they were quite slow. And I had my own computer which I used both for personal stuff and for office stuff in the in the office. I didn't have computer at home. So, yeah, I had my own computer there as
00:29:19 So, yeah, I had my own computer there as well.
00:29:20 well. Did HN118 have access to all of the computers, your computers and the GR computers? I think any any of these any volunteer coming into the office, if I wasn't
00:29:31 coming into the office, if I wasn't there and used my computer, could use my computer. I wasn't that that that precious about it. Uh, there wasn't an issue of trust with the uh with the um volunteers. So, uh yeah, they would have
00:29:42 volunteers. So, uh yeah, they would have had access to it. Yeah. So, it there was an issue of trust? Did you say? No, there wasn't really. I mean, I I don't recognize this um I know I know who who his name is
00:29:54 I know I know who who his name is covered with privacy because I've read the report elsewhere. Um, I never had an issue of trust with that that activist. Well
00:30:03 Well it says here that you set up a secret audit program um
00:30:08 um in a hidden folder to determine who is accessing what.
00:30:14 what. Would you agree that that, if true, suggests
00:30:17 suggests um that you were suspicious of people in the office using the computers. Otherwise, why set up a secret audit program?
00:30:25 program? Yeah, but the thing is that's not true. Um, I wouldn't know the first thing about setting up a secret folder like that. I'm not very techy uh savvy, so I I wouldn't know how to do that and I didn't do that. Do you know where, if if not true
00:30:38 Do you know where, if if not true where HN118 may have got that impression from? Is that it? I don't know. Perhaps he's set up a hidden folder himself. I don't know. Did he give the impression that he was
00:30:51 Did he give the impression that he was tech-savvy, that he was good with computers? Yeah, he he I mean, that's that's why we pointed him towards the website. We We knew we wanted a much more involved, sophisticated, and larger website. So,
00:31:03 sophisticated, and larger website. So, we we got we we turned as much um of our resources onto it as possible. So, um that's why he got my cuz he he seemed to be well, much more comfortable with that kind of stuff than I was.
00:31:18 I I just want to go through the last two paragraphs because you your evidence is that
00:31:23 that HM that there were no secret audit programs at all. None that I had anything to do with, no. Because in this report of HM 118, he goes on to say, "It should be noted that
00:31:34 goes on to say, "It should be noted that Taylor has done this out of a niggling curiosity rather than any specific suspicions about Privacy. And after 2 days of operation, the only thing of interest that arose were some rather
00:31:46 interest that arose were some rather revealing pictures that Privacy had posted of himself on the gay cruising website Gaydar." So, what this is reporting is not only were you suspicious, not only did you set up an
00:31:58 suspicious, not only did you set up an audit program, but indicating that the these are some of the results. Uh I don't recognize that. I never I never saw any pictures like that of that activist, no. Uh And the last paragraph here, "Taylor
00:32:10 Uh And the last paragraph here, "Taylor intends to leave the program in place, however, and has in fact upgraded its capability in the last 24 hours to include a subprogram that will record
00:32:21 include a subprogram that will record the use and attachment of any external portable drives, such as the key fob type USB pens that are increasingly popular."
00:32:30 popular." I
00:32:31 I I I I can't do things like that. I I wish I could. That would have been quite useful, but I know that's not me. So,
00:32:39 So, from your perspective, is there any truth in what is described there about these audit programs that were installed? No,
00:32:49 No, like I said, there wasn't there wasn't an issue of trust with me and the and the
00:32:53 the and the people using the computers in the office. I didn't I I neither had the the motivation nor the capability of doing stuff like that, to be honest with you.
00:33:05 I wonder if you can take that down. I'd like to just turn Mr. Taylor to a couple of paragraphs in your statement. It's page 40 Mr. Taylor's statement, please.
00:33:20 It's paragraphs 56 and 57 on page 40. Before leaving the website, I'd like to ask you about this. You set out here
00:33:31 You set out here Wellings was one of a small group of people with responsibility for the GR website. And then you say this, he did drag his feet with certain tasks and in that way altered the communications of the organization.
00:33:43 the organization. When we wanted to appeal for witnesses after a couple of GR activists had been arrested at a protest, the appeal was not forthcoming and this may have been detrimental to their court case. In
00:33:57 detrimental to their court case. In hindsight, the fact that Wellings worked on the website gave him full access to the computers in the office and therefore to our database of our members' details and our financial records, which Wellings copied and paste
00:34:08 records, which Wellings copied and paste and passed on to the desk. I do not know what the police then did with this information, but it seemed very important to them. Now, in relation to what you've set out there, particularly in paragraph 56,
00:34:21 there, particularly in paragraph 56, you're indicating that you wanted to appeal for witnesses, but that due to H and 118 uh
00:34:30 uh taking his time, this this didn't come into effect. Could you just provide us with a little more information in relation to this instance? Yes, um
00:34:40 Yes, um I think this is referring to the the Kissinger protest, which was um in April 2001, and uh a couple of people have been arrested on that protest.
00:34:53 arrested on that protest. And um I think it's for very very minor offenses of the lowest level of uh of public order thing, I think. I'm not sure. But, um yeah, we we wanted to
00:35:04 sure. But, um yeah, we we wanted to appeal for witnesses, and um yeah,
00:35:08 yeah, we asked him to put it up, and it and he found excuses not to do it, I think. And uh and that I can't remember the To be honest with you, I can't remember the outcome of those cases, so I I really can't say the
00:35:20 those cases, so I I really can't say the effect it had. Did you witness those arrests yourself? I didn't know, no. What
00:35:27 What were you aware of whether HM 118 would have witnessed those arrests at all? He was more likely of to have been a witness to it because
00:35:38 witness to it because I think he was on that part of the protest, and I wasn't. That that protest had um had the street theater part of it, which is the public-facing part of it at the
00:35:50 is the public-facing part of it at the at the front of the Royal Albert Hall. And I think there was a group of people trying to blockade the car park, or try to, you know, get in the way of Kissinger's uh um
00:36:01 uh um route to to the hall, and um I think the arrests were made in that part of the protest, and I think also Wellings was part of that pro part of the protest
00:36:12 was part of that pro part of the protest as well.
00:36:14 as well. Is Would there have been any scope for misunderstanding in relation to what you were asking for in terms of putting an appeal on the GR website for for
00:36:25 appeal on the GR website for for witnesses? How How How clear were you in relation to that? Was it a suggestion that it might be helpful? I mean, to be honest with you, if you misunderstood that, it would it would have to be willful.
00:36:37 have to be willful. I mean, like, if an organization who's had two people arrested on a protest who organized
00:36:44 organized on that protest organized by that organization is asking for witnesses, it's pretty obvious what we need is people that saw it and can can give can give evidence with to help
00:36:56 can give evidence with to help help those those people arrested. So, um I don't think it could be confused for anything else, no. Did Did you ask him, or did you Did you chase him as well in relation to that from what you recall, accepting it was
00:37:08 from what you recall, accepting it was some time ago? I can't remember, to be honest with you. I probably did chase him. That would be the normal thing to do, but um Yeah, I can't I can't I can't remember how things progressed with that.
00:37:21 how things progressed with that. One of those forgettable times of Simon Wellings.
00:37:24 Wellings. Can we move now to another document, sir? Your tab B239. It's MPS 003 5842.
00:37:33 5842. It's page two of this document.
00:37:45 It's the information uh Mr. Taylor I I This This has been brought to your attention. You're You're content um for this to be referred to. So, it says, "When in the office, Taylor
00:37:58 So, it says, "When in the office, Taylor habitually works at the same computer despite there being a total of four Apple iMacs available. This machine, a second generation iMac, uses a username and password protocol to
00:38:09 uses a username and password protocol to access the building's uh local area network." And then this, "Taylor's username is Guy Taylor, case sensitive and space must be entered. His password it is Nigel, again
00:38:21 entered. His password it is Nigel, again case sensitive. Nigel is Taylor's middle name.
00:38:24 name. What was your reaction when you read this report for the first time, a uh
00:38:31 uh undercover officer report providing your username and password? Um
00:38:42 My reaction I To be honest with you, it's possible that I told people in the office that that login. Um I I wasn't that security conscious on stuff like this. Um
00:38:54 stuff like this. Um So, it's possible, I can't remember, if I told people that or not. Um
00:39:00 Um I don't think that computer was set up with more than one login. So, if other people were using it, they must have known it. Um And and the relief that I don't use that as a password anymore, especially since
00:39:12 as a password anymore, especially since the rise of reform. In terms of what additional information that would have allowed HM 118 access to, is there is there any additional
00:39:23 to, is there is there any additional information or not over and above what we've already referred to, the database emails and the like? I I think on that computer, the only additional stuff would be personal stuff to me, like emails.
00:39:37 personal stuff to me, like emails. Um
00:39:39 Um And
00:39:40 And yeah, it'd be the emails both from my personal address and from from the office address at Global
00:39:48 Global Global Resistance. That That That was That was the only extra stuff on that computer as far as I can remember.
00:39:56 I wonder if we can please put up on screen now, moving to a separate topic. It's Sir, at your tab B170. It's NPS0027912.
00:40:18 Okay. So, this refers to, as we can see, Ariel Sharon protest outside Downing Street.
00:40:30 Uh and we can see uh members of Globalise Resistance, the London-based anti-capitalist group, were out in force yesterday evening, Monday the 14th of July, to protest against the visit of the Israeli Premier Ariel
00:40:43 visit of the Israeli Premier Ariel Sharon to Downing Street.
00:40:49 It then goes on, if we go four paragraphs down, "The intelligence gained made little difference as the attempt to the rest of a protester deep in the crowd that had gathered proved to be the catalyst for minor public
00:41:01 be the catalyst for minor public disorder that rumbled on for the next half hour or so. This culminated in the arrest of Taylor, who was attempting to lead a dash into Whitehall to carry out
00:41:12 lead a dash into Whitehall to carry out a sit-down protest." Okay. So, this refers to your arrest here. And if we could also put up
00:41:23 arrest here. And if we could also put up on screen, if possible, next to this, what you've said about this in your statement at page eight, please.
00:42:15 Thank you. Yes, it was on page eight and it's this paragraph, paragraph 22. Thank you.
00:42:31 Yes, it's uh The MPS number the previous report was 0027912.
00:42:45 So, in relation to this report, at paragraph 22 of your statement, you refer to the report Wellings has a report of a protest on the 14th of July 2003. I did attend this large protest of
00:42:57 2003. I did attend this large protest of a few thousand people and attempted to sit down in Downing Street as a lawful peaceful protest. I was arrested, taken to Charing Cross police station from where I was released without charge a
00:43:08 where I was released without charge a few hours later. It appeared that the police, although very interested in me at the time, also decided I'd broken no laws on the evening the in question. Uh my question to you is to what extent
00:43:20 Uh my question to you is to what extent was HN118
00:43:23 was HN118 uh
00:43:24 uh present at that particular action at which you were arrested? Well, he was definitely there. Um
00:43:33 Um I mean, basically, when when you got a crowd of people in a pen and know and you think it would be a really good idea for people who were going to sit down in the street and just make a bit more of a an issue about
00:43:44 just make a bit more of a an issue about things, what you do is you run up and down trying to get people you think you're going to come with you and you
00:43:51 and you get all of There's a part of um Downing Street where they where the barriers stop either side of a tree. And um so, I got a crew of people together. I said, "Right, I don't mind leading this, but come on, let's get on
00:44:02 leading this, but come on, let's get on the road and hopefully start a start a run of people onto the road, and everyone else will follow us, and we will have a massive people sitting down on the road and blocking the street and making a big fuss of it and
00:44:14 making a big fuss of it and get more news coverage, you'll get more attention to the whole thing. So, I got them all together. I ran into the road. I got about 10 yd into the road. I turned around, and everyone else
00:44:25 road. I turned around, and everyone else had stopped. And I was on my own in the street and got nicked. Um so, it was just one of those things that didn't quite come off. Um
00:44:33 Um Yeah, it happens. It's happened a couple of times to me, that one. But, um yeah. Would you Would you have known whether 118 would have been aware that you'd been arrested? I wouldn't have been surprised if he was
00:44:44 I wouldn't have been surprised if he was behind me, one of the people that had stopped. Um Well, if we just read on in from that paragraph in your in the report that referred to you being arrested, so this culminated in the arrest of Taylor, who
00:44:55 culminated in the arrest of Taylor, who was attempting to lead a dash into Whitehall to carry out a sit-down protest. At least three other arrests were made, uh including the arrest of a Korean national and one ISM member.
00:45:06 Korean national and one ISM member. Uh and then the report states, "It is important to note that prior to the disorder,
00:45:12 disorder, activists had been busily passing through the crowd in both an attempt to both stir up the crowd and up the ante and gauge people's willingness to mount some form of direct action.
00:45:24 some form of direct action. Instrumental in this endeavor were Taylor himself, Chris Nineham, Julie Waterson, Amy Jarrett, privacy, Simon Wellings, privacy, privacy, uh and the distinct
00:45:35 privacy, privacy, uh and the distinct Virginia Rodigno. Uh these individuals were also centrally involved uh once the disorder broke out, in particular in whipping up the crowd in the attempt to de-arrest and trap the
00:45:46 in the attempt to de-arrest and trap the police officers carrying out their out the initial arrest. This is 118's report uh referring uh to himself in the penultimate paragraph on on this page.
00:46:00 penultimate paragraph on on this page. Yeah. Um
00:46:03 Yeah. Um I
00:46:04 I I don't actually remember any any disorder breaking out other than me running into the street on my own. Um
00:46:13 I don't know if I'd been arrested by that point, um but
00:46:17 but uh certainly I don't I mean I knowing those people I can't see them I can't see them trying to de-arrest
00:46:28 I can't see them trying to de-arrest anyone, but um maybe they did, but um I didn't see that. I think I think by that stage I must have must have had my
00:46:37 had my abortive attempt at leading something magnificent and been in the back of a police van by that point cuz I don't remember any of that. I'm going to ask about another um
00:46:49 I'm going to ask about another um action carried out by Global Resistance. And I wonder if we could take both these documents down. And so it's your page B26.
00:47:00 B26. It is MPS 1208295. Uh we've already had some reference to it. It's in relation to Henry Kissinger's um visit
00:47:11 visit planned visit uh in 2002. And this report, as we can see, uh dated the 15th of February 2000 and two.
00:47:22 and two. Uh and just to go through the report, Guy Taylor has arranged for a reconnaissance of the Royal Albert Hall to take place before the planned protest against the visit of Henry Kissinger on
00:47:34 against the visit of Henry Kissinger on the 24th of April 2002 to the Institute of Directors Annual General Meeting. Taylor, and indeed the entire planning committee for the protest, is keen to establish likely entrances and exits
00:47:47 establish likely entrances and exits that Kissinger and his expected entourage will seek to use, particularly vehicular ones. They are also keen to consider where and how police are likely to erect any pens or barriers and
00:47:59 to erect any pens or barriers and perhaps more significantly where potential breakout points may exist once those fences have been erected. The reconnaissance is to include photographs of the building, its entrances and exits
00:48:11 of the building, its entrances and exits and exit points and the road junction surrounding the entire complex. Taylor wants this work completed in time for the next Kissinger welcoming committee meeting which is due to take place on the evening of the Wednesday the 20th of
00:48:23 the evening of the Wednesday the 20th of March 2002. If was
00:48:27 If was If someone were to say that there was again some justification in the police obtaining
00:48:39 obtaining intelligence about someone who was looking to not only protest
00:48:51 not only protest in relation to someone like Henry Kissinger
00:48:54 Kissinger visiting the country and addressing the Institute of Directors but to such an extent that photographs taking of entry and exit points there's some justification
00:49:05 justification for the police in seeking such information. What would your reaction be to that?
00:49:11 to that? I
00:49:12 I I certainly did do any reconnaissance of the of the Royal Albert Hall. I've been to a number of gigs there and I know how many entrances there are to that place and there's numerous. I don't think photographs of all the entrances to the
00:49:24 photographs of all the entrances to the Royal Albert Hall would help anyone. Um
00:49:27 Um There is I think down the back of the like I said in in the previous bit we were talking about how there was two parts of the protest. We had one with massive I mean there was
00:49:39 We had one with massive I mean there was a 3 m high puppet of Henry Kissinger with people dressed as There's one person dressed as Ronald McDonald, another person dressed as a
00:49:50 high powered businessman. There was a a judge. There was all Sorry. So, but um
00:49:56 but um there was all all these different characters which we had and put on a um put on a a bit of a show trial of Henry Kissinger. We'd done that I think the week before um
00:50:08 week before um inside in a in a meeting with uh Bruce Kent from CND doing the um doing the uh prosecution case. Um so, we were keen to educate people
00:50:19 Um so, we were keen to educate people for the about Henry Kissinger and why we were opposed to him. Because we realized that a lot of younger people wouldn't have heard of him. So, we were very we're very keen to educate as well as um
00:50:31 educate as well as um as well as uh mobilize um in these in these circumstances. So, we we organized that around the front. But a a number of people who wanted both in in Globalize
00:50:42 people who wanted both in in Globalize Resistance and some not in Globalize Resistance wanted to blockade his way in, which we thought was a valid thing to do as well. So, we had two meeting points and two almost separate things going on. One
00:50:54 almost separate things going on. One around the back to blockade, one around the front, bit of uh bit of theater, bit of education, and then uh then a protest. So, um yeah, there was
00:51:05 yeah, there was it was a dual-purpose thing. Um and uh I
00:51:09 and uh I I don't remember ever wanting to I mean, maybe the the ve- vehicular entrance was uh of of specific interest to uh the people blockading at the back.
00:51:21 to uh the people blockading at the back. I can't imagine I can't imagine uh Henry Kissinger walking to the uh to the venue from his hotel. So, yeah, that would have been that would have been uh of um of interest.
00:51:34 have been uh of um of interest. But um basically, we we just wanted to get our
00:51:38 get our our our show on the road or on the pavement at least. And um and uh and maybe cause as much impact as we could
00:51:47 we could using our um ever trusty uh tactic of sitting down in roads. Um so, yeah, we we we tried that later. So, you used the word blockade in relation to the Royal Albert Hall.
00:51:59 relation to the Royal Albert Hall. Again, if someone were to say, "Well, isn't there some justification in the police seeking uh intelligence about groups that want to blockade, for example, the Royal
00:52:10 to blockade, for example, the Royal Albert Hall?" Some justification in that.
00:52:13 that. Well, it's uh I mean, like, it's quite an ambitious thing to block a place that size. And um I'm not sure if uh I mean, like, I would imagine it would be just a just
00:52:24 I would imagine it would be just a just a matter of having, you know, a couple of van loads of of police to move people on. Don't think you need much in forward in forward planning or intelligence about that. But, if you want it that way, you can.
00:52:35 But, if you want it that way, you can. I'm going to ask about an another report uh says that your uh tab B174. It's NPS0028972.
00:52:48 Uh this is um dated the 1st of September uh 2003.
00:52:59 Now, we can see this is headed DSCI protest. If we just go straight to the penultimate paragraph on this page, GR's likely response to this will be to send
00:53:10 likely response to this will be to send the more direct action-minded activists out on raiding parties up and down the DLR in attempt to catch arriving delegates on trains. Uh several globalized activists, including Noel
00:53:22 globalized activists, including Noel Douglas and PrivSec, have been hoarding spray paint. And if the opportunity presents itself, they will attack arriving delegates with paint, blood-filled balloons, and eggs, and the like. If there is a sufficient turnout
00:53:34 like. If there is a sufficient turnout and any weakness can be found in the building's defenses, it cannot be ruled out that GR activists will attempt to gain entry to the center, but this is their least favored option. But just
00:53:46 their least favored option. But just beginning with accuracy, to to what extent is
00:53:51 extent is this paragraph uh accurate in HM118's report?
00:53:57 report? The thing that really comes to my stands out to me is this blood-filled balloons that it I think I think in the early days of someone mentioned blood-filled balloons,
00:54:08 someone mentioned blood-filled balloons, and it was I
00:54:11 I it was treated with a bit of incredulity, and uh I
00:54:16 I Globalize Resistance never had, never used, never had, never acquired a blood-filled balloon. I don't know where you're getting it from. And um
00:54:26 And um and it would be it'd be I think someone had mentioned it earlier on in something about the war or whatever, I can't remember, but it became a bit of a running joke that we'd have blood-filled balloons, and uh
00:54:39 blood-filled balloons, and uh and I probably just to tease the uh the activist that had come up with that idea in the first place. Um
00:54:45 Um so
00:54:48 so I I don't I don't I don't I don't know why he repeats it. I mean, I you know, I suppose it's another another instance of his um
00:54:55 his um of his ever turning up the volume on the on the on the sheer madness of the stuff. Um
00:55:02 stuff. Um I think there were some Globalize activists wanting to go on the DLR and perhaps
00:55:09 perhaps talk to or maybe talk at the delegates um
00:55:13 um and perhaps do a do a speech about um you know, the impact of arms that were on sale at these these events. Um that's that was uh done by other
00:55:26 Um that's that was uh done by other groups as well. Um I think that was probably the extent of the stuff which was aimed at the uh DLR. But paint, blood-filled balloons, and eggs was never used, and I don't think we even contemplated it to be honest
00:55:38 we even contemplated it to be honest with you. So, again, it's inflation and an exaggeration. So, just to be clear in relation to that because in terms of what is set out here, it's not just an idea was
00:55:49 here, it's not just an idea was canvassed. It refers to hoarding spray paint.
00:55:54 paint. Again, is that something that's that's I don't know where I mean certainly it wasn't hoarded in the office. It wasn't hoarded at my place. I don't know where it was hoarded, but I I've got no knowledge of stuff like that
00:56:06 I've got no knowledge of stuff like that being hoarded. And if we
00:56:13 turn to the second page, please.
00:56:17 Of the same report at the top of the page, the plan for the 10th of September is at present still much more fluid, but the intention is still to cause disruption to the running of the DLR and
00:56:29 disruption to the running of the DLR and possibly the Jubilee line which feeds into it from central London.
00:56:36 London. And again, if it was suggested to you that there was some justification for police seeking intelligence about groups that wanted to
00:56:49 intelligence about groups that wanted to disrupt the DLR and the Jubilee line. What would you say to to those people who said that there was
00:56:57 was there is some justification in police seeking this intelligence. I would say that the idea that 30 to 35 activists are more than willing to
00:57:08 activists are more than willing to perform lock-ons I do an arrestable offense is uh is quite surprising to me. I'd know I would be amazed if we had that many people willing to stick themselves out
00:57:19 people willing to stick themselves out that far.
00:57:20 that far. I think what's what's at play here is the idea that we needed they needed to to have things which were like this in in to report them in order to justify
00:57:32 in to report them in order to justify their existence. I I mean, like this this doesn't bear much resemblance to what what the reality was. I mean, we didn't have the money to hoard stuff. We didn't have the money There's a lot of
00:57:43 didn't have the money There's a lot of reports in in uh in the uh disclosed documents which uh detail the financial crisis we were almost continually in on uh on uh in GR.
00:57:55 continually in on uh on uh in GR. And, you know, the way that I I irregularly got paid. Um the idea of spending loads of money on D-locks or or spray paint or or or
00:58:06 on D-locks or or spray paint or or or whatever to uh just so we could um have it in store just in case it's useful is uh is fantasy again. It's um I mean, we we we couldn't afford that kind of stuff. We We didn't do that kind of
00:58:17 stuff. We We didn't do that kind of stuff. It didn't happen. You You've mentioned D-locks. And just on that point, if you can just briefly turn up um so it's at your tab B173. It's MPS0028914.
00:58:31 It It's just on that uh point, Mr. Taylor. This is uh again, 1st of September, 2003. It's page three. It's the penultimate paragraph of page
00:58:42 It's the penultimate paragraph of page three.
00:58:47 Which says, "There is a core group of about 30 Yes, 35 activists who are more than willing to perform lock-ons. Guy Taylor, Globalise as full-time, is likely to ask a trusted comrade to obtain a number of D-locks and armored
00:58:59 obtain a number of D-locks and armored cable of the like used to secure pedal cycles later this week." Now, this says that you are likely to do so. So, it doesn't report that you do. But again, I think this is what you were referring to in terms of the D-locks.
00:59:11 referring to in terms of the D-locks. Yeah, I mean I mean I don't know how much a D-lock was in those days, but I mean, it was more than we could afford. We did We We didn't have the We didn't have the financial capability
00:59:22 We didn't have the financial capability of backing up stuff like this. So, I don't know I I I I don't know where he gets it from to be honest with you.
00:59:33 I want to ask about something that you referred to at this morning and if we could turn up report at Sir, your tab B179 is MPS0029217.
00:59:47 So, this is a report state of the 3rd of October 2000 and three and you can see this is in the period of the state visit of George W. Bush to the
00:59:58 the state visit of George W. Bush to the UK in November of that
01:00:02 of that year. And in relation to page one, the last two paragraphs.
01:00:16 I am I'm sorry. It is the um last two paragraphs of the top report. Can you see where it says informally? So, uh
01:00:23 So, uh yeah, thank you. Informally, Taylor has already begun discussing ideas with a few trusted friends and activists. Early ideas include the construction of a large wheeled prop along the lines of
01:00:34 large wheeled prop along the lines of the large pink and orange tank that featured at DSEI and um on S27 that could make an appearance at each venue that Bush visits. And then this, another
01:00:45 that Bush visits. And then this, another idea is to somehow get a vehicle into Bush's motorcade as it arrives or departs a venue, perhaps escorted by activists dressed as secret service
01:00:56 activists dressed as secret service agents. Okay.
01:01:03 How accurate is HM11
01:01:07 is HM11 eight's report when he reports the idea of getting some sort of vehicle into George W. Bush's motorcade um during the
01:01:18 George W. Bush's motorcade um during the state visit?
01:01:22 I think I said earlier I welcomed mad ideas um because we thought sometimes a mad idea could be worked upon into something which could work. But I don't actually recall any any of that. I don't
01:01:34 actually recall any any of that. I don't I don't think I mean like the the amount of effort that went into making that pink and orange tank was immense. I mean like quite a bit of it Welling's time was invested in it. I think we had two
01:01:46 invested in it. I think we had two two days of uh police overtime working on that pink and orange tank. And uh and it meant that we we you know it was quite an impressive thing in its uh amateurish way. Um
01:01:58 amateurish way. Um Uh to build another vehicle like that I I'm thinking I don't know is there a date on this article on this document? So this is um date that we have dated it as the 3rd of October 2003 for this.
01:02:10 as the 3rd of October 2003 for this. I don't know how far in advance of uh
01:02:13 uh Mr. Bush's visit that was. His visit was between the 19th and the 21st of November. Right. So this was a bit of time before I suppose it would be possible to build something like that in that time.
01:02:26 build something like that in that time. But that I mean like that that tank took two and a half weekends of quite a few activists' time to stick it all together. It was it was a it was a joyful um
01:02:38 it was a joyful um prop we had but um and also to get the get the the proper long tube each of the venues that Bush visits. That's a lot of pushing on casters
01:02:50 That's a lot of pushing on casters around London that is. Um
01:02:55 It's possible that we did we discussed something like that but I don't think we agreed on something like that. We certainly didn't go ahead with it. Um yeah.
01:03:03 yeah. We we we were we were great at discussing mad ideas but um yeah that this was this never got beyond the stage of mad idea really. I want to ask you about another report that refers back to this
01:03:16 that refers back to this uh visit. It is I wonder if you can take that down and then call up so it's at your tab B239. This is MPSW35842.
01:03:26 Uh which we've dated at uh July 2004.
01:03:32 And I wonder if we could please turn to page three in this uh report. It's the last two paragraphs on that page. Uh perhaps most significantly, uh
01:03:43 page. Uh perhaps most significantly, uh Nalum has already warned his close friend and fellow activist uh Guy Taylor that he must be ready to mount real and effective direct action in both the lead-up to the ESF and of course at the
01:03:55 lead-up to the ESF and of course at the G8 that will follow some 6 months later. Uh this course of action will always be determined by political expediency. Nalum would only order it done if it was necessary. For instance, if very radical
01:04:07 necessary. For instance, if very radical young activists were being attracted elsewhere to get their kicks or if the resultant publicity was desperately needed. Uh and then this This situation has existed before when US President
01:04:19 has existed before when US President George Bush visited London. In that case, Nalum, who had who had put Taylor on standby to kick things off with the police in Trafalgar Square, eventually
01:04:30 police in Trafalgar Square, eventually reined Taylor in rather than let him off the leash. This was as a direct result of pressure coming from key activists in the Muslim
01:04:41 coming from key activists in the Muslim Association of Britain who wanted no part of a riot. Nalum knew that it was vital at that time to keep them within the Stop the War Coalition and so settled for a protest that although
01:04:53 settled for a protest that although huge, inevitably made less of an impact than say the poll tax demonstration. Now, this
01:05:02 Now, this ref- reference here to uh uh Nalum uh putting you on standby to kick things off with the police. Uh
01:05:12 Uh how accurate i- that a description of of what
01:05:17 what he said to you? I I want to start by saying that Nighnam could neither or order reign in
01:05:24 reign in or let me off the leash in any way. Um he didn't have that kind of power over me. Uh but basically um he's a good friend and I got a huge amount of respect for him and I would listen to his ideas, but he doesn't That wasn't
01:05:35 his ideas, but he doesn't That wasn't the type of relationship we had. Um
01:05:41 if Nighnam has never asked anyone to kick things off with the police. To be honest with you, I don't know how to kick things off with the police. I don't I wouldn't know where to start, to be honest with you. A load of people turning up in armor
01:05:53 A load of people turning up in armor with big sticks. Um me going up to them and saying, "Let's have a fight." It's not going to happen. So, I I I really
01:06:02 I didn't have the knowledge or, you know, kind of like experience of kicking things off with the police at all. I mean I
01:06:12 I I don't I'm not sure if anyone knows how to kick things off. What about not the suggestion, but what it actually says in this report that the the reason that
01:06:22 that he was
01:06:24 he was reigning you in was because of pressure from the Muslim Association of Britain who wanted no part of a riot. Um
01:06:32 Um Any
01:06:33 Any Does that ring any bells? Is there any any truth in what is set out here? I think the the the pattern to to 118's exaggerations are he he he does
01:06:47 to 118's exaggerations are he he he does he finds a fact and builds on it with his own imagination and his own logic. So, it's possible that Muslim Association of Britain have expressed that they want a peaceful demonstration or something. But, I mean like how that impacted on my
01:07:00 But, I mean like how that impacted on my my communications with Chris Nighnam is is is I is something I don't understand. Um certainly
01:07:09 certainly I've never in I've never really kind of been
01:07:13 been much of a one for to enjoy a riot. I've I've been on a few protests that have kicked off in one way or another. And um
01:07:22 And um I've been injured on one of the the wedding demonstration in the in in 1993 or four, whenever it was. Um I it's uh it's a frightening uh experience when the when a protest gets
01:07:35 experience when the when a protest gets attacked by the police. It really is, and it can be very damaging. I and it's not the type of thing I revel in. No, it's not the type of thing I'd ever seek. So um again, this is uh
01:07:46 So um again, this is uh more exaggeration and fantasy. I I
01:07:51 I I want to ask you about Globalise Resistance and and the media, but before I do, may I just refer to you to one more report and and then we'll uh go on to that topic. It is Sarah Tabby 130. It
01:08:04 to that topic. It is Sarah Tabby 130. It is MPS2011564.
01:08:07 It's a report we've dated 27th of January 2003. It's on
01:08:13 It's on uh you can see uh there, Globalise Resistance, Stop the War, Disruption of meetings attended by government ministers.
01:08:24 government ministers. Uh and it states that Guy Taylor, the leader of Globalise Resistance, is delighted with the disruption that was caused at last week's meeting uh at South Camden School, where Tony Blair
01:08:35 South Camden School, where Tony Blair was the keynote speaker. Uh Blair was aggressively heckled during his speech by a young male GR member, Privacy. He was eventually removed by Labour Party officials and security. This incident was captured by television
01:08:48 This incident was captured by television news crews and carried extensively on that evening's news programs. Privacy is a student at the LSE and is reportedly close to Privacy, another GR stalwart, who is practically a full-time agitator
01:08:59 who is practically a full-time agitator for GR and the SWP within the LSE. Although this action was carried out under the banner of Stop the War, it was very much organized and carried out by
01:09:10 very much organized and carried out by globalized people. Taylor met with privacy outside the venue, primed him about what to shout, and was instrumental in providing him with the Labour Party members card that he needed
01:09:23 Labour Party members card that he needed to get into the venue. The vast majority of protesters who attended the demonstration were GR members or sympathizers, and Taylor has very much been credited with the action's success. The mood of Taylor and
01:09:35 action's success. The mood of Taylor and his key activists is upbeat and confident. They genuinely believe that they can stop any military action against Iraq. Taylor now plans a sustained campaign of harassment against
01:09:46 sustained campaign of harassment against any government minister that speaks at any London-based public meeting. He hopes to launch another disruptive action as soon as possible. Again, the same question about accuracy.
01:09:58 Again, the same question about accuracy. To what extent is this report accurate? Um
01:10:04 Um I don't actually remember much about it. I don't I I remember it I remember it happened. I also remember being quite pleased about um Blair getting heckled. I mean, he was just about to launch a war which took the
01:10:17 about to launch a war which took the lives of millions of people, and um as far as I was concerned, if someone's going to heckle him, good on them. Um Did I get Did I get member member um
01:10:28 Did I get Did I get member member um Labour Party membership card? I might have done. Um type of thing I would I would be happy to do, um but I can't actually remember doing it. Um Yeah, so I I I think anything we could
01:10:39 Yeah, so I I I think anything we could do to actually take it to the ministers, the people who are most responsible for launching that war, I I think good on them. Um
01:10:51 think good on them. Um And it would have been good to be able to do it on a regular basis, but um I I I that I think they probably stepped up security after that type of event and and we wouldn't be
01:11:02 type of event and and we wouldn't be able to do it much more. So, I think in general that's quite accurate. I think there's a there's a few cases of embellishment again. Um
01:11:13 Um but uh
01:11:14 but uh The the the want me to talk about the support that nice about me. The the reference to a sustained campaign of of harassment, what how how how would you have described it?
01:11:26 how would you have described it? Um when it came to interrupting a speech by minister or whatever, we if we heard of one or one we came across one we would we would probably try and do that in in the time of build up to the
01:11:38 that in in the time of build up to the to that horrible illegal war. Um although we didn't have access to ministers' diaries or anything and we we we we rarely found out about that type
01:11:49 we we rarely found out about that type of thing. So, a a campaign of harassment um would be a bit would be a bit ambitious as people with our limited knowledge of where they would be and it's not
01:12:00 where they would be and it's not something we put a lot of resources into trying to find out to be honest with you. We wanted to get other things going.
01:12:06 going. I mean I
01:12:07 I mean I that kind of action is is great but it's individual. It's one person or maybe two or three in the in the meeting. Our action was on trying to get as many people involved as possible on the
01:12:18 people involved as possible on the street trying to process. You know, it was opening the door to to to activists to get involved in things. So, this wasn't our bread and butter stuff and yeah, it was probably gave us a nice
01:12:30 yeah, it was probably gave us a nice platform to announce the next demonstration or whatever but I mean like it wasn't our key action. Okay, we can take that document down now, please. One of the justifications for the
01:12:42 One of the justifications for the undercover technique that was used was that there was no other way of obtaining intelligence on on various groups.
01:12:54 intelligence on on various groups. I want to explore with you now the extent to which globalized resistance uh published uh what they were doing and were public about their actions and
01:13:06 were public about their actions and intended actions. And I want to begin by the newsletter. There was there was a newsletter called Resist. Is that Is that right? That's right, yeah. Could Could you help us with what that
01:13:17 Could Could you help us with what that was, how often it came out, and what sort of information would have been on there, please? Um Resist was a uh like four or eight-page uh newsletter
01:13:28 uh like four or eight-page uh newsletter with uh various articles It had a what's coming up uh column with things which were going to happen in the near future. It had reports on
01:13:40 near future. It had reports on uh
01:13:41 uh protests and actions we'd taken. And um and uh it had news of meetings of uh you could come along to and get involved. Basically. Who was Who was able to attend those
01:13:53 Who was Who was able to attend those meetings?
01:13:54 meetings? Um
01:13:58 Basically, I mean I basically you could download the you could buy the um the uh the newsletter for a few pence on a on on a protest, or you could download it from the website.
01:14:09 from the website. And to get stuff into it, um there's normally a an editor um there was a working group uh for for the newsletter. I didn't really involve
01:14:21 the newsletter. I didn't really involve myself in it. I knew that if I did, I'd be sucked into the minutiae of what's going in this week and everything. And and uh so
01:14:29 and uh so it was uh there was a there was a few editors, not necessarily people from the steering committee. Um and from time to time they they'd uh change editors and uh and it would be basically, if you
01:14:41 uh and it would be basically, if you approached the editor, you'd get your stuff in. We didn't I didn't really get um censor it. I didn't have any much control over what was in it. I just let it go, really. I wonder if we could turn to MPS 008750,
01:14:56 I wonder if we could turn to MPS 008750, search your tab B50. This is a report that dated 30th of April 2002.
01:15:05 Globalize Resistance BBC film crew. The BBC who are making television documentary film about May Day have approached Guy Taylor of Globalize Resistance with a view to GR's
01:15:17 Resistance with a view to GR's participation in the making of the documentary. After some negotiation, it has been agreed that Noel Douglas and Sue Jones will have a film crew with them throughout the 1st of May. They
01:15:29 them throughout the 1st of May. They will be seeking to record a fly-on-the-wall portrait of the preparations for the protest and the march and demonstration itself. Douglas is due to meet with a producer from the
01:15:40 is due to meet with a producer from the BBC on Tuesday the 30th of April 2002 to discuss the project. The BBC may also take this opportunity to shoot some footage of Douglas preparing some of the
01:15:51 footage of Douglas preparing some of the digital imagery in which he specializes. Is that accurate in terms of Globalize Resistance discussions with the BBC about making a
01:16:02 discussions with the BBC about making a fly-on-the-wall documentary about preparations for and the May Day protest?
01:16:09 protest? I think so. Um
01:16:12 Um I suppose you better ask Noel the day after tomorrow, but I think um I think it probably happened. We did a lot of uh
01:16:20 lot of uh I mean, when the media looked at the anti-capitalist movement, we were we were one of the few groups that would actually talk to them. A lot of the more radical side uh side of things, understandably, didn't trust the mainstream media and didn't talk to
01:16:31 mainstream media and didn't talk to them. But we we thought I mean, like if you if you give an interview to the BBC or whatever, I mean, it gets broadcast. It's like uh handing out half a million leaflets, isn't it? It's it's
01:16:42 a million leaflets, isn't it? It's it's It's It's like getting your message out to so many people. So, we did we did do a lot of media. I mean, the in 2001 when the when we got kettled on Oxford Circus,
01:16:55 when we got kettled on Oxford Circus, um
01:16:56 um I did a live interview with with Sky News from inside the kettle because they had cameras pointing at me from up up above one of the shops, and um so we we we we we sought the media. We
01:17:08 so we we we we we sought the media. We actually sought a platform and tried to get our message out. So, after I did that meeting that that interview with with Sky, I had loads of phone calls. I was in the middle of the kettle saying, "Yeah, you can do Kilroy
01:17:19 kettle saying, "Yeah, you can do Kilroy tomorrow. You You go and do this." And I was just handing out interviews to people left, right, and center. And that was fantastic. We thought that was a real good good effective thing. So, um this type of thing did happen quite frequently. I can't
01:17:31 did happen quite frequently. I can't remember this exact example, but um yeah, I'm I don't I got no reason to to say this is not true. And what sort of things were you telling the the media that um
01:17:45 the the media that um Could you give us an idea of what what you were
01:17:47 you were Well, normally it would be about why we are protesting. Why are we doing it? Why are we activists? Why Why do we question things? Why Why are we against this war, against this thing? Why are we trying to save the
01:17:58 thing? Why are we trying to save the planet? And we see it's in the early days really of of the
01:18:02 of the bigger protests on on climate and what have you, and there was still an argument to win with people. So, to put things out which which
01:18:13 to put things out which which said people and people and planet before profit was was very important in those days. So, we took every opportunity to do that, and we wanted to get as far and as wide as possible.
01:18:25 as possible. And yeah, we And it showed because every time we did something like that, we'd have more interest coming in the more hits on the website, more emails coming in of people inquiring as to what what we're doing next.
01:18:36 we're doing next. So, yeah, we we did a lot of that to try and uh
01:18:40 and uh try and get our point across. I've got a bit of a reputation being a bit of a media at the time, but I mean like it's just something I was happy to to suffer.
01:18:51 to suffer. In
01:18:51 In in terms of information, what would H&118 have been privy to that say the media wouldn't or members of the public wouldn't by looking at resist or the website or being on email group?
01:19:05 website or being on email group? Um
01:19:08 If it was said that he had access to specific more specific information about what was about to happen. Would that be fair? about to happen in what way?
01:19:19 about to happen in what way? In terms of a demonstration or an action that was going to take place. I don't think 118 would have had a lot of information like that any more than anyone else.
01:19:30 any more than anyone else. Basically, he liked to build himself up as someone who was in the know. I know that much, but um
01:19:38 but um I don't think that really kind of played much of a
01:19:42 much of a I don't think it gave him much benefit in being able to tell what was going to happen really. So, um I don't think there'd be a lot of lot of sense in trying to seek that information from him.
01:19:53 from him. What was his How would you have described his role in Globalize Resistance? We've We've seen reports referring to him being elected to the steering committee, but in terms of his his role,
01:20:06 in terms of his his role, how significant was it? On the face of it, he was a member of the steering committee, and so would he not have had some influence, some some power in relation to the
01:20:17 some some power in relation to the direction of Globalize Resistance? I think it There was normally about and if anywhere between 15 and 25 people on the steering committee. And it was really I mean it wasn't that
01:20:29 And it was really I mean it wasn't that difficult to get elected to the steering committee, um what mattered was how you spoke out in meetings and how you, you know, you you put your point of view across.
01:20:40 you put your point of view across. Um Wellings wasn't someone that was a regular contributor to to the steering committee meetings. He was I suppose it was more than a watching brief, but basically he was uh he he did
01:20:53 brief, but basically he was uh he he did you know, he he showed support for people's points of view and what have you, but he only occasionally um came up with ideas himself. Um
01:21:04 um came up with ideas himself. Um so, I don't think he had a huge amount of impact on the The The way that he has described being uh elected to this steering committee in his statement is he uses words like it's
01:21:15 his statement is he uses words like it's wholly unremarkable, it's slightly meaningless election as far as the significance is concerned. Would you agree with that characterization? He used to say it's well, it's wholly
01:21:26 used to say it's well, it's wholly unremarkable in many respects. Uh and prefers to as a slightly meaningless election. Is that Is that fair given the significance that that he had as a result of being a such a member?
01:21:38 result of being a such a member? I suppose that reflects the fact that it wasn't that difficult to get elected to the steering committee, but he also used the his election to the steering committee to prove to his superiors that he was right at the heart of global
01:21:49 he was right at the heart of global resistance and doing very well, thank you very much. So, he had he played it both ways, didn't he? He's he he's saying it's it's one of those things that happens, but also something which uh which means that he's done so well and
01:22:01 which means that he's done so well and that he's so central to the whole project. So, I I I think I think being on the steering committee could lead either way. You could either not turn up to meetings and just have this position, which it which would be meaningless in
01:22:13 which it which would be meaningless in that way, or you could get along, get stuck in, get organizing stuff, go along to uh
01:22:18 to uh working groups and uh and and and help mold the future of the organization. So, um
01:22:26 um yeah, I I I think he he um he was very choosy about who how he described it to who.
01:22:32 who. I want to move now to separate topic, and this is in relation to uh how HN118's time in Global Resistance came to an end. And just for context, I'm
01:22:45 to an end. And just for context, I'm going to ask if we could please put up on screen uh 118's statement uh at page 44, please. I'm just going to provide some context, and we're going to ask you some questions, Mr. Taylor.
01:23:07 So, here we can see Operation Dalliance. Uh HN118 refers to a voicemail which he inadvertently left which captured part of a desk meeting. The circumstances in which I
01:23:19 The circumstances in which I inadvertently left a voicemail that ultimately led to my expulsion from GR 8 months later can be outlined as follows. A, in mid-January 2004, I had a desk
01:23:30 A, in mid-January 2004, I had a desk meeting with the relevant C Squad desk officers at a neutral venue. This may have been my cover officer's home, but I cannot now be certain. B, as part of
01:23:41 cannot now be certain. B, as part of that desk meeting, I was asked whether I had a telephone number for P, one of the activists with whom I associated. I switched my telephone on in order to locate this in the electronic address
01:23:54 locate this in the electronic address book and gave the number to the C Squad officers. C, in the course of looking up this number, I inadvertently dialed it as well. BlackBerry devices had a
01:24:05 BlackBerry devices had a multi-directional toggle switch or trackball which could be pressed to dial numbers. This must be what happened. D, I was then shown a number of photographs
01:24:16 I was then shown a number of photographs of individuals in order to attempt to make identifications. I did not turn the telephone off before we moved on to this, and so I did not discover that a call had been placed. I
01:24:28 discover that a call had been placed. I wonder if we can turn over the page, please.
01:24:34 E, as only emerged later, Privacy did not answer her telephone, so Michael went through to the 1571 electronic voicemail service provided by
01:24:46 electronic voicemail service provided by British Telecom. In the course of making those identifications, I mixed up two different activists who had the same forename, assigning an incorrect sexual
01:24:57 forename, assigning an incorrect sexual preference to an individual in the process. This error was an audible part of the recording and protected me from suspicion for a significant period. I cannot be certain, but I believe the
01:25:10 cannot be certain, but I believe the voicemail cut out after a period of time. So, I did not discover that this call had been placed until well after the event, by which time Privacy had
01:25:21 the event, by which time Privacy had played the voicemail message to Guy Taylor over the telephone. It was also recorded separately down a telephone line, which degraded the quality of the recording. Now, we'll just pause there.
01:25:34 recording. Now, we'll just pause there. So, this recording
01:25:39 you provided the inquiry with. That's right. And we're going to play it, but before doing so
01:25:46 doing so for
01:25:48 for reasons of protecting certain individuals' privacy, we'll hear some beeps, and that's that's the only significance of the beeps, of course, not on the original, but to protect people's privacy. So, I wonder this is your exhibit one. I wonder if we could
01:26:00 your exhibit one. I wonder if we could play that now, please. Thank you.
01:26:05 Testing, testing, 1 2 3. Testing, testing, 1 2 3.
01:26:11 Main menu. I'm yours. First, saved message. Message received. Monday, January January 16th at
01:26:23 January 16th at p.m.
01:26:42 Yeah, she is.
01:26:54 He's girlfriend.
01:27:05 She's um She's definitely his girlfriend. They've been together for a long time.
01:27:30 He's talking to his girlfriend. Yeah.
01:27:33 Yeah. Yes.
01:27:39 Getting about lots of stuff, but I don't know who he is.
01:27:46 And I hear him as well from lots of stuff, but I don't I don't know his name.
01:27:52 Who are these people? Do you know who they are? Have you just met them? I keep forgetting her name, but he's got something to do with her quite a lot, but he's he's um
01:28:00 um he's sort of flat to the anarchist side of the movement as well. Yeah. He's um and this guy as well, he's SWP member, I can't remember It's really operating in the area. Yeah.
01:28:11 Yeah. Um no, he's fine. I think he is. I don't think he is well. a sentence, but he didn't know it was a sexual blow. He looks quite nice, didn't he does. Yeah.
01:28:22 Yeah. To listen to the message again, No, I didn't want to hear it. Thank you. Now,
01:28:25 Now, message
01:28:26 message Mr. Taylor, very difficult to make out the detail of that. But, could you just help us with the circumstances when you first heard the message that we've just listened to, please?
01:28:36 please? Okay. So, um the activist whose phone it was left on called me about almost a week after the message was left and said, "Guy, you've got to listen to this message. It
01:28:47 got to listen to this message. It mentions
01:28:48 mentions It's mad. I don't understand it." And I said, "Well, play it to me then." And she goes, "I can't. It's on 1571 and it's going to get wiped in the next couple of hours cuz I've left it practically a week before contacting
01:29:00 practically a week before contacting you.
01:29:00 you. Um
01:29:02 Um I had a friend that lived quite close to her
01:29:06 her and I called him and he went round to her flat and recorded it. He It wasn't recorded over a phone line. It was He had a dictaphone, I think. And he sent me
01:29:15 sent me an MP3 of the of of the recording. And I played it. I I I felt a chill, really, when I when I heard it. I mean,
01:29:26 heard it. I mean, he admits to getting something wrong, um which uh
01:29:30 which uh well,
01:29:31 well, not surprising. He got so many things wrong, but um he
01:29:36 he he got two activists with the same first name mixed up and uh
01:29:44 and uh which I
01:29:45 which I give given it the fact that he was a policeman trying to get evidence on people or or um you know,
01:29:53 you know, intelligence on people. I think it was quite startling that he managed to get those people mixed up who are very different people and didn't look
01:30:02 look They didn't look the same. They And it was obviously from a picture. So, um he's transcribing someone's surname onto someone else's uh name, which I think is pretty shoddy, really. Um,
01:30:13 pretty shoddy, really. Um, so, yeah, I I I listened to the um to the recording umpteen times. I played it to everyone coming into the office. I even played it to 118 without knowing.
01:30:25 even played it to 118 without knowing. Um, and it and it was a long time until it the penny dropped. In fact, the one Friday afternoon in in the Global Assistance office, I was
01:30:36 the Global Assistance office, I was there on my own, stuffing envelopes, and um I played
01:30:41 I played I was playing music on my iTunes, and uh the phone rang, so I hit mute on the iTunes. I took a phone call, and um
01:30:52 and um spoke to Everest Simon Wellingtons on the phone, so I spoke to him and arranged we were having a meeting um
01:30:59 um about the website the following week. So, we arranged to have this meeting. I put the phone down, hit mute on the uh on the um uh music again, and it had This is the
01:31:11 uh music again, and it had This is the stuff of Holly- Hollywood movies, I admit, but it had shuffled onto that recording. And if you listen very carefully to the to to that recording, there's a there's a bit in it where he uses a phrase, he
01:31:22 a bit in it where he uses a phrase, he does lots of stuff like that. And that was one of his frequent phrases. It's um you know, it's like some people say "actually" all the time, or he says "lots of stuff" all the time, and he used it in that phone call, and he used
01:31:34 used it in that phone call, and he used it in that the phone call I just had with him.
01:31:37 with him. And that's when the It was It was matching up those phrases, not the sound of his voice. It was that phrase, "lots of stuff", which um which made the the the penny finally drop with me, and I
01:31:48 the penny finally drop with me, and I I sussed out that it was him. I I want to go through that in a little more detail. In terms of the error, the mistaken identity, so of course we're not referring to anyone's names, but on the recording,
01:32:02 anyone's names, but on the recording, could you just explain what that mistake was?
01:32:05 was? Well, there was two activists of the same name, same first name. And he gave I I could tell who it was through the description
01:32:16 description of her
01:32:17 of her and the fact that she was a lesbian. I could tell who that who that activist was. I went through it. I could identify a number of people they were talking about in that in in that um phone call.
01:32:30 about in that in in that um phone call. And um and then I heard the name of a different person with the same first name
01:32:36 name who was I knew full well not to be that person, wasn't a lesbian, wasn't uh and was a much different activist. I mean, like uh the the person who it was on the pictures,
01:32:47 the person who it was on the pictures, not who he named, was far more influential and uh and um and uh
01:32:53 and uh I suppose active than the other person. So, um
01:32:57 So, um yeah, I I just thought, "Well, that's that's that's a really bad mistake to make. If you're trying to identify people and you've given someone's name and attributed anything else that someone else has done to them, that's pretty poor work, isn't it?"
01:33:09 pretty poor work, isn't it?" Now, if we you were describing the process, this comes to your attention, you get the recording, and then you said you even um played it uh to HN118. And I just want
01:33:22 played it uh to HN118. And I just want to go to that point in time. I wonder if we could um put on screen, sir, it's at your tab B272. It is uh report NPS0708478,
01:33:34 please.
01:33:41 Okay. So,
01:33:43 So, HN118,
01:33:45 HN118, um Groundhog Day potential telephone compromise, uh 30th of January uh 2004, 11:45 approximately, uh Guy Taylor phones GD, so Groundhog
01:33:57 uh Guy Taylor phones GD, so Groundhog Day HM118, on a number of issues. Finally tells GD to bear in mind that quote the conversation is being listened to. Tells him that about a week ago
01:34:08 to. Tells him that about a week ago Privacy, surname unknown, comrade from Brixton received an inadvertent phone call which was recorded onto her answer phone.
01:34:18 phone. The call was about 2 minutes long and involved a discussion in the background between two males discussing identification of photographs. A mutual weary Privacy was referred to by the two
01:34:30 weary Privacy was referred to by the two males. Privacy had played the recording over the phone to GT via her mobile. GT's attitude did not seem to be hostile or in any way a tester.
01:34:41 or in any way a tester. 12 GD contacts office 12:40. GD, so this is Groundhog Day HM118, able to confirm from his mobile history that a 2 and 1/2 minute call was made to
01:34:53 that a 2 and 1/2 minute call was made to Privacy's BT line at 13:46 on Friday the 16th of January. GD was taking part in a field meeting at that time at Steve Beales's home with, and it's redacted,
01:35:05 Beales's home with, and it's redacted, and others. Identification from photographs was discussed during the meeting and there was a reference made to Privacy. And we can see actions 13:15
01:35:16 to Privacy. And we can see actions 13:15 Andy Rintoul informed. And so this appears to be the first report that HM118 produces when
01:35:27 that HM118 produces when he discovers that he had mistakenly left the message, the recording of which has just been
01:35:38 the recording of which has just been played. And does that accord with 30th of January 2004 of your recollection from your point of view when you would have mentioned this to HM118? You're looking now, of course,
01:35:51 to HM118? You're looking now, of course, at 118's side of what you've just discovered, but his description here of you calling him uh on the 30th of January 2004.
01:36:02 uh on the 30th of January 2004. Uh and the way in which he describes you um
01:36:07 um revealing this news. Do- Does that accord with with your recollection as well?
01:36:10 well? Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. Okay.
01:36:13 Okay. Now, that's the 30th of January 2004. I want to move forward a few days to uh it's NPS 0031811,
01:36:25 it's NPS 0031811, please. So, it's at your tab 200.
01:36:31 And
01:36:33 So, yeah, so just a few days later, you can see um at this stage what has happened has been given an operation name, Operation Dalliance, uh and we can see
01:36:45 Operation Dalliance, uh and we can see um that this is headed debrief of Groundhog Day. So, this is uh the explanation in the far note that is put forward. On the 3rd of February,
01:36:56 is put forward. On the 3rd of February, Groundhog Day was present at a meeting of Global Eyes Resistance activists in a public area of the Royal Festival Hall. Also present were Guy Taylor and then uh three others whose names are uh
01:37:08 uh three others whose names are uh hidden for privacy reasons, uh and a Swedish woman in her early 20s. GD was covered by S Squad surveillance uh before, during, and after the meeting. Now, of course,
01:37:19 Now, of course, you would not have been aware um of the surveillance officer at the time, but this meeting on the 3rd of February, so this is This is just a couple of days after uh you phoned
01:37:32 after uh you phoned uh 80118 and and told him about um this voicemail call. Is Is that a meeting that you
01:37:40 that you uh remember just a few days after
01:37:43 after Yeah, vaguely. I mean, not not in much detail, but yeah. Uh and then it's the subject of the conversation recorded on the answer phone of a peripheral activist privacy, surname unknown, occupied five or six
01:37:55 surname unknown, occupied five or six minutes of an 80-minute meeting. Uh GD reports that although GT has listened to a cassette tape copy of the original recording, he has not recognized GD's voice. And the issue of there being an
01:38:06 voice. And the issue of there being an informant in the group was not even raised.
01:38:11 raised. Is again, is that accurate in terms of what 118 is describing this this meeting? Um that the possibility of saying an informant
01:38:22 the possibility of saying an informant um was not even raised during this meeting and that in fact it only occupied about five or six minutes of a meeting that went on for a hour and 20 minutes.
01:38:32 minutes. Yeah, but the I mean, when you when we have five or six minutes on it and I didn't want to make a big thing of it. Uh but the the I don't think you can have that conversation not be raising the issue of
01:38:43 conversation not be raising the issue of there being an informant in the group. Maybe not that group that was meeting, but basically yeah, we I did raise the the issue of there being an informant somewhere around GR. We did I didn't know
01:38:54 around GR. We did I didn't know whereabouts that informant was, but uh I I tried to make light of it. There was enough
01:39:01 enough there was enough concern and paranoia around the uh around the um the movement as there was. So, I didn't really want to make a big thing of it, but I did want to put it out there that we'd had
01:39:12 want to put it out there that we'd had anything and if anyone had any information, it would be good to uh to share it with us, but um certainly, yeah. We we I didn't want I didn't want it to upset things in in Globalise Resistance,
01:39:24 upset things in in Globalise Resistance, so I didn't make a big thing of it. Uh and so, if we we continue with this debrief, it says the following describe the basis for optimism that the consequences of an unfortunate lapse might not be so severe. Uh the first
01:39:36 might not be so severe. Uh the first bullet point, uh Guy Taylor introduced the topic as a footnote to discussion of another matter and in the following terms, "Look, I've got to tell you this. It's really is funny." Now, I'm not suggesting that, you know, they thought
01:39:48 suggesting that, you know, they thought it was funny, but are these the sort of Is he accurate? Is 118 accurate in describing how you introduced the topic?
01:39:56 topic? I might have done. I I was trying to make light of it. I didn't want to make it as serious a point as it actually was, really. I I wanted to give people confidence to carry on. It goes on, "The recording of the
01:40:08 It goes on, "The recording of the misidentification of a photograph of of another activist by GD and the characterization of her by another voice as a lesbian was the cause of much glee." Uh quote, "Anyone who knows
01:40:20 glee." Uh quote, "Anyone who knows privacy knows that she never goes out with out her boyfriend. It's so funny. It's so effing wrong." Uh again, d- does that capture the description, the tone of of the the conversation at
01:40:32 the tone of of the the conversation at this
01:40:33 this I I guess it does. I mean, I you know, if you're going to have people spying on you and you've got everything so badly wrong, it it feels a bit less terrible, didn't it? I mean, like
01:40:45 didn't it? I mean, like Um so, yeah, I I I probably did play up on that mistake and uh and use it as proof it wasn't as bad as it could be. Uh the next bullet point, "Doubts re the provenance of the original recording
01:40:57 provenance of the original recording were couched in terms of long-term concerns for the mental stability of an quote orange-haired crackhead woman who claims to have a boyfriend in MI6."
01:41:10 claims to have a boyfriend in MI6." Um
01:41:11 Um that
01:41:12 that I I I met that activist once in my life. It was very close to the beginning of her Globalise Resistance and she helped us
01:41:22 us um
01:41:23 um paint some banners and placards one afternoon in a in a community center in South London. Um
01:41:30 Um I didn't I'd never seen her with orange hair.
01:41:34 hair. I had no idea of her claims to have a boyfriend in So, I didn't I I certainly didn't have her down as a drug taker. So, that is um that is not true, that bit. Because here, what's set out, and you've
01:41:47 Because here, what's set out, and you've you've commented on that part of this paragraph, uh but it was doubts about the provenance of the original recording. So, what's what's HM118 is setting out here is that in this
01:41:58 setting out here is that in this discussion, there even doubts about the provenance of the recording. I I didn't doubt the provenance of it. I I
01:42:05 I No, I I don't think I mean, I that's what he's trying to do. Obviously, it was his his voice, so he he wants to he wants to throw as much doubt upon it as possible. But, um
01:42:17 as possible. But, um certainly, I I never had that view of that activist, and I never I didn't know any any rumors of uh mental instability or orange hair or taking crack or boyfriend, none of that.
01:42:28 taking crack or boyfriend, none of that. So, um I think it's um he's trying to lay down a few doubts in advance, but um I I don't recognize that at all. He goes on to describe how
01:42:39 He goes on to describe how your view was that the recording may have been a deliberate attempt by the state to unsettle the group, so it might have been
01:42:47 have been done done
01:42:49 done done It's a bit of a roundabout way of doing that, isn't it? I mean, like to put it on someone's answering machine in the hope that they might get in touch with you in time for you to listen to it in the in in order to spread it. Um
01:43:01 the in in order to spread it. Um I don't know. I mean, I don't think I I
01:43:05 I I don't think I I I said anything about that. I don't think it was a I I wanted to identify who was speaking, basically. But, um and in hindsight, I should have been a
01:43:16 and in hindsight, I should have been a lot more
01:43:17 lot more um a lot more methodical about it. I should have listened to it thinking, is this and gone through the list of the steering committee or or people I knew were involved and what have you.
01:43:28 were involved and what have you. Uh which I didn't. Uh which I I'm regret.
01:43:31 regret. It
01:43:31 It No, when when it when it states that you know, no one present asked to listen to the tape all enjoyed a laugh at the expense of the state. I don't think we had it wasn't a tape it was a CD.
01:43:42 was a CD. I got an MP3 of it. So, but we weren't meeting in the office and we didn't have the wherewithal to play the recording at that meeting. So, there would be pointless to ask to
01:43:53 there would be pointless to ask to listen to it really. Um
01:43:55 Um I played it to everyone I could when they came into the office. Um
01:44:02 Um and yeah, so yeah, we we we we laughed at the incompetence of the spy getting two people mixed up who were so obviously not the same person. And then the the
01:44:14 not the same person. And then the the last bullet point here DT so you thought they ought to get round to putting it on their website. And then Groundhog Day so HM118 and
01:44:27 And then Groundhog Day so HM118 and privacy were asked to implement this in due course. So, was that right that you suggested the idea of putting the recording or a recording of it on the
01:44:38 recording or a recording of it on the Global Eyes resistance website and the people to put it on the website the quote unquote webmaster HM118 and
01:44:49 quote unquote webmaster HM118 and another person. Do you remember that being suggested? Yes. Yeah, I I mean I we didn't have it bleeped out and redacted like the one we've just listened to here. So, I was a little bit wary of putting
01:45:01 I was a little bit wary of putting things up. There was other names which of people were quite prominent in the movement and would be quite recognizable because they weren't um
01:45:11 um they weren't English names. So, um I was wary about that. So, I was I was in two minds of putting it up but if we should have got it redacted and and posted but obviously
01:45:24 posted but obviously 118 was very keen not to put it up I think, for some unknown reason. So, um And we can be clear about that that 118 did not
01:45:32 did not He did not put it up. on the Global Ice Resistance website. So, I don't know whether this point is a convenient moment to have a mid-afternoon break before we go. Yes, sure is. Um may I ask you to reflect upon
01:45:44 Um may I ask you to reflect upon something over the break? Okay.
01:45:46 Okay. Um it's all about uh X and the um
01:45:52 issue that was discussed this morning. Yes.
01:45:55 Yes. Uh
01:45:56 Uh you are
01:45:58 you are absolutely convinced that uh
01:46:02 uh X was misidentified by
01:46:06 by uh H N 118. Yeah.
01:46:08 Yeah. And uh there is no possibility of him being mistaken about it. He He can't have gotten them muddled up. I mean, it's There I think there's an age difference
01:46:21 There I think there's an age difference of about 30 years between these people. Forgive me, I'm not asking for I'm asking you to just think about things over over the short break. Okay.
01:46:28 Okay. Because I what I what I want to ask you to to reflect upon is whether there is anything you can tell me either openly publicly
01:46:36 publicly or in a private session, if uh necessary, uh as to why uh he might have misidentified the individual. Anything you know, not can speculate
01:46:49 Anything you know, not can speculate about, but anything you know. Right.
01:46:51 Right. And I I'm asking you to reflect upon that. And when when we come back in in 10-15 minutes, would you tell me whether or not you would like to say something about it, and if so, whether in public
01:47:02 about it, and if so, whether in public or in private? For sure.
01:47:04 For sure. Thank you. Yeah.
01:49:19 Mhm.
01:51:14 Mhm.
01:53:09 Mhm.
01:55:04 Mhm.
02:00:49 Mhm.
02:05:26 Just bear with me before we begin. I'd like to see whether there's a response. Um
02:05:33 You asked about M T and X.
02:05:36 and X. Yes.
02:05:37 Yes. And the way they were confused and why. Yes.
02:05:40 Yes. Yeah.
02:05:41 Yeah. Um yeah, I've got I I'm happy to talk about that in public or whatever.
02:05:48 In that event, um could you tell me Speaking to the public.
02:05:55 I I've just been told that uh you are happy to um explain to me to the best that you can why uh
02:06:07 why uh M T and X have been misidentified in uh the reporting. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
02:06:17 Shall I do that? Please.
02:06:18 Please. Yes, I will. Um I think the story of this crazy stunt being carried out by a middle-aged white bloke is a lot less
02:06:31 a middle-aged white bloke is a lot less exciting
02:06:32 exciting than someone who
02:06:36 who HM118 thought was a young Arab person. Uh I think the the optic of that would be much more engaging for
02:06:47 engaging for media, for um police
02:06:51 um police uh and management. Um and uh and therefore it was a it was a bigger story like that. I I I think um the fact that he wasn't Arab was uh by the by. It was uh that was his
02:07:03 the by. It was uh that was his description of him. And uh therefore I just think it it made it a bigger story than it was, a bigger a bigger um spectacle than it could have been.
02:07:14 spectacle than it could have been. And something which was a lot more dangerous than it was. So, um I think that's the reason they got confused like that. We're not confused. They got changed. One identity identity was put into the story instead of
02:07:26 was put into the story instead of another person's. And um yeah, it just made it a scarier story.
02:07:31 story. Um
02:07:32 Um that is with respect to speculation on your behalf on your part. Um what I asked was whether there was anything that you knew which um might have given rise to the
02:07:43 which um might have given rise to the misidentification. Oh, I see. Um that's the only explanation I can think of. Um there was nothing No, I mean, to be honest with you, I didn't know he'd reported on that until
02:07:55 didn't know he'd reported on that until the uh until the inquiry started. So, I I've got no idea of uh of other information that would throw further light on that, I'm afraid. Thank you Thank you for reflecting upon
02:08:06 Thank you Thank you for reflecting upon this, and thank you for the frankness of your answer. You're very welcome. Yes.
02:08:12 Yes. Mr. Taylor, I was asking you before the break about a meeting that took place at the Royal Festival Hall.
02:08:23 the Royal Festival Hall. Uh in February of 2004. And
02:08:29 And and that's meeting including the possibility, but did not take place, of the recording being put on the website, and also the tone of that meeting
02:08:41 tone of that meeting being relatively light-hearted with references to laughter. I I'd like to move now to the 20th of August 2004. Another meeting at the Royal Festival
02:08:53 Another meeting at the Royal Festival Hall, and but with a a different tone. And in order to ask you these questions, I'm going to ask first if we can put up MPS0036265.
02:09:05 So, this document is at your tab E243. It is
02:09:11 It is DCI Michael Dell's file note. Uh the date of the file note, we can see we have it on screen, it is the 24th of August 2004.
02:09:23 August 2004. I'll just want to ask you some questions about it. So, if we begin the second sentence,
02:09:28 sentence, on the 20th of August 2004, in a public area of the Royal Festival Hall,
02:09:36 Hall, regularly used by activists for meeting, RW
02:09:41 RW I'm just going to pause there. We have seen uh the reference to Groundhog Day or sometimes the hog being the code name
02:09:53 sometimes the hog being the code name that was used um in HN118's reports. Um however, by this stage, um the code name had changed from Groundhog Day to
02:10:05 name had changed from Groundhog Day to Ring Wraith. And so, RW is a reference to HN 118 still. So, that's who we're referring to. So, on the 20th of August 2004, in a public area of the Royal
02:10:16 2004, in a public area of the Royal Festival Hall, regularly used by activists for meetings, RW was confronted with a poor copy of the recorded conversation by four leading
02:10:28 recorded conversation by four leading globalize resistance activists, Guy Taylor, privacy uh privacy and privacy. RW is several pages into the production of a detailed account, the oral version
02:10:40 of a detailed account, the oral version of which has been given to DS Bales and to me in lengthy debriefs. Other intelligence allowed RW to prepare himself for the event. But, it is plain that his own fortitude,
02:10:54 But, it is plain that his own fortitude, sharpness, professionalism, and experience allowed him to turn in a bravura performance challenging every premise of his
02:11:05 challenging every premise of his inquisitors, plainly dominating them psychologically, and exploiting their eternal uncertainties over who is and who isn't
02:11:16 uncertainties over who is and who isn't an informant. Now, just to pause there before we go through the rest of the document.
02:11:22 document. In relation to the confrontation meeting, could you um explain to us in your words what happened at the Royal Festival Hall on
02:11:34 happened at the Royal Festival Hall on the 20th of August 2004? Okay, yeah. There was um it was a meeting I think for the website. Um and me and three other uh activists met
02:11:47 and me and three other uh activists met with
02:11:49 with HM118
02:11:51 HM118 uh to discuss the website. Um we did not have a a copy of the recorded conversation. We had it on CD, but had no way of playing it. Um
02:12:02 Um and before the meeting started, I said, "Right, before we get um get going on this, Simon, you've been rumbled. You've been talking to the police. That recording was of you. off." Basically, that
02:12:14 was of you. off." Basically, that was the uh that was the um beginning of the meeting. And he uh uh he kicked it he he said no, it wasn't me, and uh there was an argument over what what was and what wasn't him.
02:12:26 what what was and what wasn't him. Um I don't remember any fortitude, sharpness, professionalism, or experience in in in his performance. Um but um
02:12:35 but um he did at one point say I he had a CD Walkman on him, and he said, "I've got to listen to this message." And he disappeared. I He said, "I've got to go get some batteries for my Walkman."
02:12:46 my Walkman." And so he disappeared for a while. Um I assume it was to go down to the people waiting outside for him in case we started slapping him about. But um
02:12:56 But um he came back after a while having not got any batteries, and um came back to uh plead his innocence. Um and uh
02:13:07 Um and uh he had a little cry. He um he said it well, it was going to ruin his life by doing this. And um
02:13:15 And um yeah, uh so basically I just told him that the trust had gone, and that we could no longer work together,
02:13:21 together, and uh kicked him out basically. Um
02:13:25 Um I think this this is the final sentence in the uh in the thing on the screen there.
02:13:30 there. That's what comes of when you allow an actor to write their own review, isn't it? You just get this amazing write-up of something which I um I didn't feel dominated psychologically.
02:13:42 I didn't feel dominated psychologically. Uh and I didn't feel like uh I had any internal uncertainties. I As I said, I recognized the the uh the recording as him, not through the
02:13:53 the recording as him, not through the sound of his voice, but uh the a catchphrase that he used, the the the all kinds of stuff. Um
02:14:00 Um so I was
02:14:02 so I was convinced it was him, and we kicked him out basically. I I'd like to just if we can just move down the page, the bullet points under the heading facts.
02:14:13 facts. They facts are W's days at the very core of GR over. He has been characterized as an activist who has betrayed GR by talking to
02:14:26 who has betrayed GR by talking to police, not as an SDS officer who has penetrated the organization. Now, of course, Mr. Taylor, you did not know about the existence of the SDS at that
02:14:38 about the existence of the SDS at that point. But is this Was that correct? Yes. He was characterized as an activist who had been who had betrayed GR by talking to the police. Is that correct? Yes, I mean we I would as I said
02:14:49 Yes, I mean we I would as I said earlier, I I no conception of the idea of spending a wage looking at us. It was ridiculous. So, um I didn't I didn't think the the the Metropolitan Police would be that um
02:15:02 Metropolitan Police would be that um foolish with their money as to try and infiltrate Global Resistance. So, um yeah, I thought he was an activist. I thought his cover story included um
02:15:13 um having spent an an amount of time in Australia and having fathered a child there and then being found to be overstaying his visa and he got deported
02:15:24 overstaying his visa and he got deported back to the UK. And I thought they might be using some some form of contact with his son or daughter and be able to you know, kind of um
02:15:35 you know, kind of um blackmail him into giving information like he did on that recording. So, yeah, I I thought it was something along those lines. I didn't imagine it would be a full-time police officer looking at us.
02:15:46 full-time police officer looking at us. This morning, when I was asking you questions about Global Resistance, the philosophy of Global Resistance, its attitude towards violence, I think you may have alluded to this document because the next
02:15:57 because the next bullet point, it says the risk to him is negligible in terms of uh being discovered. But then it goes on to state this, his four inquisitors,
02:16:08 to state this, his four inquisitors, individually and then collectively, were in tears. Now, just pausing there, you've described how HM118 cried. Yeah, he did cry at one point. And there
02:16:20 Yeah, he did cry at one point. And there were there were the tears on our side, not all of us. Um I think it was just the shock of being betrayed in such a way by him. Um you know, it was very upsetting. So,
02:16:31 Um you know, it was very upsetting. So, some people I mean, not all four of us. I think one maybe two people off uh that weren't um 118 in that meeting cried, but um
02:16:43 um 118 in that meeting cried, but um it was yeah, it was it was a very stressful and and uniquely um
02:16:48 um uh disturbing meeting. I mean, I've never been through anything quite like it. Um
02:16:54 it. Um I've had relationship breakups which have been easier than that. Um and uh basically, it was a it was a um yeah, it was an upsetting time. So, um but at the same time, there was I think
02:17:05 but at the same time, there was I think there were correct, there's no prospect of violence. Um and uh yeah, it's yeah, he was he was he turned on some very realistic tears.
02:17:16 he turned on some very realistic tears. I think he he might have been very upset at losing his job, um which I thought would be
02:17:20 would be the outcome of outcome of the whole thing.
02:17:23 thing. So,
02:17:23 So, Which didn't turn to be the case. Reminding ourselves that this document that we're looking at is DCI Michael Dell's file notes, just for the the context of it. So, it
02:17:34 just for the the context of it. So, it goes on, "These are not violent people. I have previously prepared a risk assessment for Operation Dalliance, which was entirely vindicated by subsequent events. The Security Service
02:17:46 subsequent events. The Security Service concurred with their separate risk assessment. There is no history of violence. There is no prospect of violence." And in terms of that uh analysis,
02:17:57 analysis, um would you agree with with that? In terms of
02:18:00 terms of Yes, and it does raise the question why what he was doing there in the first place if there's no violence in Um
02:18:06 Um Uh
02:18:07 Uh it it it under it undermines the whole the whole deployment really, doesn't it? Um but anyway, that's what happened. And so,
02:18:18 And so, this document is 4 days after the confrontation at the Royal Festival Hall. So, it's 4 days after that. I just want to ask for your reaction, the
02:18:31 want to ask for your reaction, the impact it has on you reading what we can see on page three, please. So, if we move forward to page three. So, on page three,
02:18:46 and you can see um Michael Dells name at the bottom of that. But if you look at the second bullet point, consider with C squad whether we should leave GR intact
02:18:59 leave GR intact or through RW mount a destructive operation. I just want to ask what your reaction
02:19:08 reaction to that was when you at first read it. So, this is obviously consideration being given to various options. And one here says consider with
02:19:19 options. And one here says consider with C squad whether we should leave Globalize Resistance intact or through HN118 mount a destructive operation.
02:19:30 HN118 mount a destructive operation. What was your reaction when you first read those words, please? Um
02:19:36 Um I my reaction was to to consider whether they did that or not or tried that or not because um 118 continued meeting with a couple of people I know of from from GR.
02:19:49 people I know of from from GR. Um
02:19:50 Um it did lead to a certain amount of distrust within the organization. I think it in some ways that was I suppose inevitable once you find out um an infiltrator and you kick them out
02:20:01 um an infiltrator and you kick them out um and some people doubted that. So, um in in some ways I think it happened in the way I don't know if it was purposeful on the on on on the on the
02:20:14 purposeful on the on on on the on the part of the police, but basically um
02:20:17 um yeah,
02:20:19 yeah, there was a lot of there was much it was a it was a harder atmosphere to organize in because there was distrust. And um and some people thought that I was I was a bit of a bastard for kicking
02:20:31 was I was a bit of a bastard for kicking him out, to be honest with you. So, um yeah, I I I think that that made it a a harder way to um to uh uh continue really, which was uh which which was
02:20:42 really, which was uh which which was pretty tough. The The days after his expulsion were were pretty tough. The The months after it, really. It was much harder to uh carry on GIA. Before leaving this document, may I ask
02:20:53 Before leaving this document, may I ask you what impact it has on you to read what we can see in this next bullet point. Acknowledge that SDS activity is not event-based, that it was formed
02:21:04 not event-based, that it was formed because an inept MPS in 1968 could not explain what was happening given its failure to understand the political world outside general orders. Acknowledge that political intelligence
02:21:16 Acknowledge that political intelligence is not simply a function of knowledge of organizations. Uh and again, same question. What was the impact on you of of reading those words about political intelligence?
02:21:27 words about political intelligence? I think it it it explains some parts of 118's behavior um we covered before about him being a a provocateur. And obviously his
02:21:38 And obviously his you know, and he did uh participate in in the meetings that decided the the the way forward for Global Resistance. So, yes, um his impact on the organization,
02:21:50 yes, um his impact on the organization, although
02:21:51 although because of his low uh low-level understanding of the politics of the whole thing, I think would would have uh would have uh limited his ability to do so, but um yeah, I think
02:22:02 so, but um yeah, I think he did play a role in trying to get people arrested, in trying to uh to um undermine Globalize Resistance, and and therefore
02:22:10 therefore it was um
02:22:12 it was um yeah, he he did try that. He he he tried to
02:22:16 to derail uh Globalize Resistance, although he was he failed in that in in that in that sense because um I think people had a better understanding of what was going on and
02:22:27 understanding of what was going on and didn't listen to the stuff he he was suggesting at times. This is August 2004. I just want to move forward in time to November 2004. Please can you take that document down, and can
02:22:38 can you take that document down, and can we please bring up MPS0039616,
02:22:43 which says that your tab B255.
02:23:11 Now, we can see the date of this is 10th of November 2004. SDS notes meeting with Globalize Resistance Steering Committee member Privacy. I just want to
02:23:22 member Privacy. I just want to uh ask you about the accuracy of what is set out here. Says this report seeks to set out the details of the meeting between myself as that's HN118 and Privacy on the evening of Tuesday, the
02:23:34 Privacy on the evening of Tuesday, the 9th of November 2004. Privacy, a semi-professional activist with a long history of involvement in the areas of animal rights, much of it in her native country, and anti-capitalism, currently sits on the
02:23:46 anti-capitalism, currently sits on the steering committee of globalized resistance. I'm serving SDS field officer. May be remembered that I was challenged by members of my target group on the 20th August this year and accused
02:23:57 on the 20th August this year and accused of informing on a lone occasion to the police. Privacy was one of those that challenged me. These matters are dealt with in some detail under the auspices of operation Dalliance. Since that
02:24:08 of operation Dalliance. Since that initial confrontation, I have kept in sporadic touch with Privacy. This contact was initiated by her on the day after the challenge was made when she sent me an SMS text message that both
02:24:21 sent me an SMS text message that both offered support and stated that she did not believe that I was guilty of being an informant. This contact has been kept up almost exclusively by means of email
02:24:32 up almost exclusively by means of email and texts, but also by the occasional voice call since then. And then it goes on to state, "Last night, we met for dinner at a vegan restaurant in Soho.
02:24:44 dinner at a vegan restaurant in Soho. Privacy was relaxed, friendly, and off guard throughout the evening. We were together from about 8:30 p.m. to midnight. As might be expected from a meeting of this length, the conversation
02:24:55 meeting of this length, the conversation was wide-ranging, but perhaps naturally enough, the conversation often turned to the events of late summer and what has happened since. And this is what I want to ask you about. A summary of the
02:25:06 to ask you about. A summary of the relevant points follow." And I wonder if you can just scroll down, please. Thank you.
02:25:09 you. Privacy said that the whole matter had been dealt with in a clumsy fashion by Guy Taylor, Globalise its full-timer and my former primary target, and that this had caused
02:25:21 primary target, and that this had caused a lot of bad feeling within the group. She added that a sizeable proportion of the steering committee did not believe that I was guilty, either because the voice on the recording was not mine, or
02:25:33 voice on the recording was not mine, or that I was the target of a dirty tricks operation by the state. Privacy added that the only people who stood four-square behind the decision with Socialist Workers Party members and that
02:25:45 Socialist Workers Party members and that the suspicion was that they had been ordered to strictly tow the party line. Now, leaving to one side the accuracy of
02:25:57 Now, leaving to one side the accuracy of um
02:25:58 um what is reported here by HM118 because there's there's no suggestion that you were involved in that dinner at the vegan restaurant, but I want to ask you about what is said to have been said to
02:26:10 about what is said to have been said to him that a sizable proportion of the steering committee didn't believe that HM118 was guilty. Is there any truth in that? No. Um
02:26:20 No. Um There's two things to say about this. Firstly,
02:26:24 Firstly, I've had an email from that from that activist who was who met who did meet up with with
02:26:31 with with 118 at
02:26:32 118 at at that vegan restaurant. With a vast I think I actually I think it was an it was an appendix of my with the statement. Um I think it was. So, you have a copy of it here.
02:26:44 you have a copy of it here. Um
02:26:45 Um It's a vastly different uh
02:26:48 uh a description of that meeting and um so, I would say that firstly, she did not say that. Uh um but
02:26:59 Uh um but certainly she his reporting of this is is um well, her her imparting information to him was different to what he claims here.
02:27:10 different to what he claims here. And he's uh he's always um
02:27:12 um inflating things or changing things. I mean, like there was definitely people who weren't in the Socialist Workers Party in the steering committee who were absolutely satisfied that it was him. So, um
02:27:25 satisfied that it was him. So, um This just is is doesn't add up at all. It's another bit of as my children would say, uh he seems to be completely delulu at this point. What What to do is just go through the
02:27:36 What What to do is just go through the rest of this document, and then we will turn to your statement in particular where you set out the email that you've referred to. So, if we go to the next bullet point, privacy also reported that
02:27:47 bullet point, privacy also reported that the situation was still only known to relatively small group of individuals. Apparently, Taylor has made it clear that the matter is dealt with and over and should not be openly discussed.
02:27:58 and should not be openly discussed. There are understandable reasons for this. If it were true, it would be deeply embarrassing for Taylor if the matter became common knowledge. He vouched for my trustworthiness on many
02:28:09 vouched for my trustworthiness on many occasions to activists senior to himself, let alone me, and in many individuals' eyes, I would have been considered his protege and right-hand man. So, just in terms of
02:28:23 man. So, just in terms of leaving to aside for one moment the issue of about whether this was said in the precise words in the meeting between 118 and privacy, could you help
02:28:35 between 118 and privacy, could you help us with
02:28:36 us with whether that is accurate that you firstly made it clear that that matter was dealt with over should not be openly discussed. Is Is that a fair description at least of your stance? No, I didn't I wouldn't say it was. I I
02:28:49 No, I didn't I wouldn't say it was. I I would I didn't particularly like dwelling on it. It was a unpleasant memory. Um but
02:28:55 but if people wanted to talk about it, they could. There was no There's no quashing of
02:29:00 of of of people discussing. There was no There's no restrictions on freedom of freedom of speech with Globalization Resistance. Um would it be damaging for me? No, it wasn't particularly embarrassing.
02:29:11 wasn't particularly embarrassing. There's someone who was grassing people up to the police, one of them to do with me. Um I did I did vouch for his trustworthiness to people, I guess. Um I don't know who the activists senior
02:29:23 Um I don't know who the activists senior to me were. Um but basically
02:29:28 basically Yeah, I
02:29:29 Yeah, I Is it embarrassing? No, I don't think a I don't think I felt any embarrassment about the whole thing. And the idea that he was my protege, right-hand man, is just laughable. I mean, uh, there was
02:29:41 mean, uh, there was there was a lot of people around in Globalise Resistance, and a lot of people who helped in the various different ways. And I and I and I tried to encourage and and show faith in all of them. Uh, but
02:29:53 of them. Uh, but that that was again overinflation of his own importance. Uh, and just reading on, "Privacy has forwarded many of the emails that I had sent her to others on the steering committee. This has had the effect of
02:30:04 committee. This has had the effect of widening the circle of those who are aware that I have repeatedly asked Taylor for various information, including a copy of the recording and the date that the call was made. This is good news, as more people have become
02:30:16 good news, as more people have become aware that I was proactively trying to resolve the situation without it looking as if I was trying to be divisive by emailing the whole steering committee list. Many have asked why Taylor has
02:30:27 list. Many have asked why Taylor has never provided me with any of the information that I have requested." Uh, just on that point, is it correct that um, many people asked you why you never provided 118 uh, with that information?
02:30:40 provided 118 uh, with that information? I don't think anyone asked me that. Um, I think there there was
02:30:46 there was you know, when I'd put the case for this being Simon Welling's on the recording, I think people largely accepted it, and some people some people did not.
02:30:57 people some people did not. And they were the ones that kept in touch with them, but that that was no more than two or three people. Um, I I I don't recognize that at all, no. Uh, um, and just that to um, finish this
02:31:08 Uh, um, and just that to um, finish this document, "Many activists uh, had seen me at the recent European Social Forum and other events, and Chris Nineham, SWP Central Committee member, Globalise Steering Committee, and let's move to
02:31:19 Steering Committee, and let's move to the next page, please.
02:31:24 Uh, fellow activist Taylor, over the last 18 years or so had apparently remarked, "Well, he hasn't disappeared, has he? In fact, he's all over the place." After the initial confrontation, Nynham, in perhaps in an
02:31:36 confrontation, Nynham, in perhaps in an attempt to have both his cake and eat it, had intimated to Taylor that if I was indeed guilty, then they could expect me to disappear completely over the coming months. Now, as we know, H
02:31:48 the coming months. Now, as we know, H and 118's deployment does not come to an end at this point. It continues. And would you agree one of the reasons that that was
02:31:58 that was possible was because that there was there was lingering doubt in Globalized Resistance in relation to precisely what his role was?
02:32:09 what his role was? I think
02:32:10 I think if there was lingering doubt, I mean, I I don't think Chris Nynham doubted it at all. Um
02:32:16 all. Um I think he was convinced. Um Like I mean, like we didn't really discuss it in in too much detail, so I don't know exactly what everyone else's thoughts on it were, apart from the
02:32:28 thoughts on it were, apart from the people in the in the confrontation meeting we had at the Royal Festival Hall. Uh
02:32:33 Hall. Uh Nove Douglas, I'm pretty sure it was was absolutely convinced it was him. And uh you know, and and in fact, when this inquiry started
02:32:44 this inquiry started and I was accepted as a core participant onto it,
02:32:48 onto it, and therefore we had proof that he was a police spy, I had a number of emails and phone calls congratulating me on uh on taking the stance that I did. That might
02:32:59 taking the stance that I did. That might have been from people that doubted it, but the um the fact that um
02:33:05 um you know,
02:33:07 you know, people accepted it. I know, I I don't I don't think there was a there was a a significant number at all. It was a very tiny number of people who didn't believe me.
02:33:17 me. And if you look down on this, there's there's after the big privacy bits, um it says, "He went on to say that in his heart of hearts he knew that I was innocent, but he'd been forced to ask me
02:33:28 innocent, but he'd been forced to ask me after a direct order from the SWP Central Committee." That is absolute nonsense. I told two members of the Central Committee, ones that were actually in Global Resistance,
02:33:40 that were actually in Global Resistance, that was Chris Nineham and Alex Callinicos, I told told them that
02:33:46 that Wellings had been spying on us, giving
02:33:49 giving giving information to the police, and I was going to kick him out, and both of them said, "Fair enough." That was the only
02:33:56 only communication I had with the SWP Central Committee over that over that over that decision. So, you know, it's in it's he can't he can't keep anything at at
02:34:07 he can't he can't keep anything at at truthful level. He has to overinflate it or lie or exaggerate in order to make things look better for him. I mean, there was no chance of him ever getting back into Global Resistance. And I don't
02:34:19 back into Global Resistance. And I don't know what he he was I think this this stuff about trying to s- seeds
02:34:25 s- seeds sow seeds of doubt and what have you, was a wrecking the operation. I'd like to ask you a little bit more about the the accuracy of this paragraph because
02:34:34 because he states towards the end of the evening, so this is the description of the meal with Privacy in the vegan restaurant. Towards the end of the evening, and after much red wine and some tequila, Privacy confided the most
02:34:46 some tequila, Privacy confided the most significant information to me. She told me how she and Taylor had staffed a Global Resistance stall at the recent Respect conference. There's some
02:34:57 recent Respect conference. There's some Privacy redactions, and then this. This was followed by the pair going to the pub and drinking red wine. The conversation turned to me, and very shortly afterwards, Taylor broke down
02:35:09 shortly afterwards, Taylor broke down and started crying. He confided to Privacy that he had been having nightmares where he was being judged by some supreme power for having condemned
02:35:20 some supreme power for having condemned me and that he knew that these dreams were a punishment for treating me so badly.
02:35:28 badly. Is that
02:35:30 Is that correct?
02:35:31 correct? Total rubbish. I mean I I don't remember doing this the this global I stole at the respect conference with with that activist. Um we might have if we did it we
02:35:43 Um we might have if we did it we probably did go to the pub as was our habit, but um I don't think I ever drank red wine in a pub either. I'm much of a Guinness kind of person. And the last two sentences in this
02:35:54 And the last two sentences in this paragraph, he continued that this was now eating him up with guilt. After this confession, he swore privacy to secrecy and explained that the matter must be allowed to rest for the good of the
02:36:06 allowed to rest for the good of the organization. No. No, absolutely that did not happen. I did not I I didn't lose any sleep over kicking him out of GR.
02:36:17 kicking him out of GR. And I think other people who probably had no view on whether it was him or not didn't miss him. So I don't think there's much much to worry about there. You have provided the email that privacy
02:36:28 You have provided the email that privacy sent to you. Yes.
02:36:30 Yes. And we have that as an exhibit, but I want to in fact just turn to your statement, please. We can go back to Mr. Taylor's witness statement because you set out the relevant paragraph from that email
02:36:41 email on page 38 paragraph 51, please.
02:36:47 So this is where you have quoted the relevant passage in the email from privacy. So this is the person um that's right with 118 and it reads as
02:36:59 um that's right with 118 and it reads as follows in italics. So at some point later, I emailed him. I may have been responding to an email from him, but I don't think so. I appreciate Guy that you're thinking what a idiot about me at this moment. It was an email
02:37:11 about me at this moment. It was an email account that closed down, so I don't have it anymore. I asked if he was okay and hoped he was all right. He asked to meet up, so I met him at the Beetroot Cafe. Welling said he'd been at the ESF
02:37:23 Cafe. Welling said he'd been at the ESF in Crystal Palace and had seen me on the GR stall, but hadn't like to come up. He asked me what was going on in GR, and I realized that even if I wasn't sure he was a spy, I suddenly didn't feel comfortable telling him anything about
02:37:34 comfortable telling him anything about GR. So, I said it was fine, something vague about the tank. He then asked how Dan was. So, I said something else noncommittal. It was quite awkward and sort of petered out quite quickly. That
02:37:46 sort of petered out quite quickly. That was the only time I met him outside a GR scenario. So, that was the email that was sent to you in relation to the conversation we've just discussed. On this particular point, I would like
02:37:59 On this particular point, I would like to
02:38:01 to ask you about what HN 118 has um said about not who you told about what happened,
02:38:13 not who you told about what happened, but who you didn't tell. I wonder if you could tell Turn to page 24 of 118's statement. It's paragraph 70, please.
02:38:30 So, paragraph 70, "My deployment changed in late 2004 because of a compromise for which I held myself responsible. Contrary to what Guy Taylor has stated publicly in the account of my deployment
02:38:41 publicly in the account of my deployment provided in Undercover, Evans and Lewis, London, 2013, at pages 211 to 213, my deployment did not end. I moved across to provide
02:38:52 not end. I moved across to provide coverage of the descent network. My former associates from GR saw me at events, but as far as I'm aware, never exposed me as a potential informant to the anarchists with whom I associated."
02:39:04 the anarchists with whom I associated." And then it's this, "It was not in their interest to do so. In so far as I was an informant in their eyes, their position will probably have been that it was far
02:39:16 will probably have been that it was far better that I was in place disrupting the competition rather than providing information on GR's activities. And so the suggestion here from 118 is that the
02:39:29 the suggestion here from 118 is that the re- you were aware that he continued uh uh his uh deployment or he continued um to mix with those in the
02:39:40 he continued um to mix with those in the dissent network, but that you didn't say anything to anyone in dissent uh because uh
02:39:46 uh essentially you're quite happy for the competition to be disrupted. And what what's your reaction to reading um that from H and 118? You see, I never saw Wellings again
02:39:57 You see, I never saw Wellings again after that kicking him out of GR. So, I didn't I I actually didn't know that he was part of dissent. I'd heard from a couple of people that they'd seen him at the ESF.
02:40:07 the ESF. The European Social Forum, the big event happening at um happening at Alexandra Palace.
02:40:13 Palace. The the the dissent network had their alternative event down the road. So, I think it's Middlesex University. I'm not can't quite remember. So, I mean like his
02:40:24 like his That is the only time I heard people refer to it having seen him outside of Globalize Resistance after he got kicked out. So, I wasn't aware of
02:40:35 got kicked out. So, I wasn't aware of his um involvement in in dissent. Um
02:40:39 Um I would have told them if I had if I'd known that. And I was um I mean I
02:40:44 I mean I I I frequently met up with people with a couple of people from from dissent uh to discuss things to There was one time before the G the G8 in um
02:40:55 in um in Scotland. Both both the I don't know if it's dissent or which uh which formulation of the anarchist movement or side of the movement had it, but they they had organized a train up to
02:41:07 organized a train up to up to Edinburgh. Um and we had as well. We both chartered trains and we were both a bit worried about low sales, so we actually discussed ways of
02:41:19 actually discussed ways of of merging those two trains, but we we we found it was going to be too problematic to do so cuz we wanted to travel at different times or what have you. So, I mean like the
02:41:31 I mean like the There was there wasn't a case of that that rivalry and we want the police to spy on that group or whatever. That's nonsense.
02:41:38 nonsense. We I would I would definitely have told them if if I'd known he was involved in in dissent. I think that's a that's a terrible thing. The trouble is most of dissent didn't understand that he was
02:41:49 dissent didn't understand that he was involved in dissent because he wasn't that involved. He I've spoken to to activists from that network and it's a shame that um none of them get a get a witness on agent 118 to be honest with
02:42:01 witness on agent 118 to be honest with you because all the people I spoke to don't remember him from dissent. Um and I don't think he was particularly visible in dissent and
02:42:11 and if they couldn't see him, I certainly could not either. So, I think his his involvement is is in dissent was a bit of a myth which he most of his
02:42:22 most of his I the bits I've seen of his intelligence sent to his handlers from dissent were emails and and leaflets and photocopies of stuff rather than really really juicy inside information.
02:42:34 really really juicy inside information. The stuff like he used to say about me and my girlfriends, that wasn't there. So, basically I think his um his imagination had to step up a gear when he when he when he infiltrated
02:42:46 when he when he when he infiltrated dissent because he knew even less about that than he knew about Global Resistance. You've already um spoken to some extent about the impact that this has had on you, but I'd like to refer in particular to what you have
02:42:59 to refer in particular to what you have set out in your statement at page 40, please. It's paragraph 60.
02:43:12 And you state here, "Personally, I found it more difficult to accept new people into my life, both in GR and in other senses.
02:43:22 senses. When someone you have put trust in betrays not only you but your principles and many other people around you, people you appreciate and love, it demands a big adjustment and a rethink. I think
02:43:33 big adjustment and a rethink. I think the effects of this infiltration will never really leave me." But you've set it out clearly there, but it Can you just it explain in any more detail how how this
02:43:46 explain in any more detail how how this has affected you? I think the turmoil I went through, not because I doubted it him doubted it was him, but because I knew it was him, the fact that I had
02:43:57 the fact that I had given him the keys to the office, given him my password for my computer, uh
02:44:02 uh shown him every trust and appreciation, and then him to dump on me like that and dump on the organization. And I mean like that that job
02:44:13 And I mean like that that job for Global Eye Assistance was my life. I mean I I There was very few boundaries between my job and my life in those years. Um if for some I I remember sleeping in the office on a number of
02:44:24 sleeping in the office on a number of occasions because I'd been working so late and didn't have the energy to cycle back to my place or whatever. So, I mean like I invested so much in Global Eye Assistance. So, I loved it. I I loved
02:44:35 Assistance. So, I loved it. I I loved the whole I loved those years and all the rest of it. And when I look back on it, I want to be happy and proud of it, and which I am in many ways, but there's this horrible stain on it, the stain of
02:44:47 this horrible stain on it, the stain of betrayal and the stain of this little shyster who's who's just been, you know, treating me like dirt and and and and grassing people up. And the things he's telling the police puts it
02:44:58 things he's telling the police puts it who
02:44:59 who could put them in in in under threat of arrest or under threat of surveillance themselves and what have you. I just think it's a disgusting way of carrying on. And I I mean I
02:45:10 on. And I I mean I when I look at all the things this this inquiry has been been investigating in the last couple of weeks when you've had those two coppers who have had relationships with with with women in
02:45:21 relationships with with with women in the movement nothing nothing I can I can
02:45:26 I can describe about my own own experience can even touch the the horrendous experience that those people have had but it doesn't mean what I went through was nothing. And I I think, you know, the the way
02:45:39 And I I think, you know, the the way people have been treated as you know, kind of little bits of tools in the in the story and little bits of factor to to look at and to inspect and to try and
02:45:50 to look at and to inspect and to try and you know, kind of analyze and and and and split this person up from another spread distrust there report on this everywhere else. It's an absolute disgrace. It's a horrible way of
02:46:02 disgrace. It's a horrible way of treating people and we did nothing to deserve it. So, yeah, it's really affected me. It's made me very angry. I'm obviously I have still not lost the anger. But I mean I, you know, it's it's and actually going through this whole
02:46:15 and actually going through this whole whole um
02:46:16 whole um this whole experience of the of of of the inquiry I mean actually this uh phone me up and say, "We're going to get disclosure soon. You're going to get 30 or 40 documents to look through and we'll have to come up with it with a
02:46:28 we'll have to come up with it with a statement." And when I looked at it and there was 275 documents there and I plowed through that. It took me bloody weeks to read all that and it was really really disturbing and it's really really horrible.
02:46:40 really horrible. It just makes me so angry. We've nearly come to the end of your evidence but moving away from HN 118, may I ask you about another
02:46:51 118, may I ask you about another undercover officer? I wonder if we could just turn over to the next page in Mr. Taylor's statement, please.
02:46:59 please. So, here HN 60 six
02:47:04 six uh and you refer to um in his witness statement, states he was arrested at a protest near the Aldermaston Atomic Weapons Establishment and put inside a prison
02:47:16 Establishment and put inside a prison cell with me and that he established a rapport with me. So, this refers to an event in May 2000 and one. And so, I I would like to ask you about your
02:47:28 would like to ask you about your recollection of
02:47:31 of sharing a cell with another undercover officer, HN 66. Uh of course, uh not the same amount of exposure as you had to HN 118. Uh but,
02:47:43 exposure as you had to HN 118. Uh but, could you just tell us about um what interaction, if any, you had with HN 66?
02:47:50 HN 66? Yeah, we spent I don't know three, four, five hours in the cell together.
02:47:56 together. So, you're going to have a chat, aren't you? Um
02:48:01 I can't remember a huge amount. I mean, I I I know that he he described me as an anarchist. So, we we didn't talk politics much, did he? Or he didn't understand it if we did. Um so, basically, yeah, we had a chat about
02:48:13 basically, yeah, we had a chat about this, that, and the other, really. I mean,
02:48:15 mean, I think it was quite like like you know, kind of it wasn't
02:48:20 it wasn't heavy political conversation. We had a chat. He seemed to be all right. He seemed to be a nice enough bloke. And um we
02:48:29 And um we you know,
02:48:30 you know, we didn't really keep in touch afterwards. It was a it was an entire Well, I mean, like it's never fun in a prison cell. So, um uh we just Yeah, we we we were talking
02:48:41 uh we just Yeah, we we we were talking to while away the time more than uh sharing information I think cuz I can't remember huge amount about it. I've been arrested um that morning
02:48:52 that morning it was a blockade of the old army weapons establishment. And we were the first to turn up cuz we'd stayed overnight as a minibus of us went from London. We stayed overnight in
02:49:03 went from London. We stayed overnight in the
02:49:04 the Reading International Solidarity Centre. Risk and
02:49:08 Risk and and we got up quite early cuz we were sleeping on the wooden floor and and we got there quite early. I sat down for about 13 seconds before I got arrested. They they took me first and put me inside a van.
02:49:20 and put me inside a van. So they left me with my mobile phone so I I
02:49:24 I I I'd phoned my solicitor and everything before I got to the station and I was put in a cell. Got some sleep and then was joined by this other bloke and we had a light chat but I
02:49:36 and we had a light chat but I I
02:49:36 I I don't remember a huge amount about it cuz we we didn't have a conversation of much consequence to be honest with you. So
02:49:43 So yeah that was about it really. Now of course we have covered a number of topics today but is there anything further any direct factual evidence that you wish to bring to the inquiry's
02:49:55 you wish to bring to the inquiry's attention that that we haven't covered already?
02:49:59 already? Anything further? There's a couple of things um There was um There's one document which I can't I've got the the the reference of it I'm
02:50:12 got the the the reference of it I'm afraid but there was a document which made it apparent that HM118 had followed a female member of the steering committee home
02:50:25 the steering committee home and detailed her journey home from Central London. She was a single well she lived on her own
02:50:33 own or maybe with her mom I'm not sure but yeah he she she lived a lot of the time on her own. And he detailed her journey home, which I found really really creepy creepy. And
02:50:45 I found really really creepy creepy. And uh
02:50:45 uh especially in an area quite close to where like much later on Sarah Everard was was abducted and uh and and and killed. So, I think that kind of that kind of stuff
02:50:57 I think that kind of that kind of stuff was really out of order. And
02:51:01 And um I think should be looked at um in his questioning and um and and made an issue of. Another thing was
02:51:12 Another thing was there was one report of a woman who was uh
02:51:19 uh uh she was treated badly by someone in Global Resistance and was short of cash and therefore, according to um uh Action 118's reporting, that she
02:51:30 uh Action 118's reporting, that she might be worth an approach. This is way before he got kicked out of uh Global Resistance. Again, uh
02:51:39 uh probably I can can only imagine that an approach would be to mount some sort of wrecking thing or maybe an approach for information. Uh I know the person involved and this is
02:51:51 know the person involved and this is person of great principle and resilience, so um I don't think that would have worked. But, I think there was with those things and other things we've heard about his reporting on my relationships on on on other people's
02:52:03 relationships on on on other people's relationships, I think there's a a real stink of misogyny about what he did and what and how he reported on us. And I think that should be made an issue of. And finally, um
02:52:16 And finally, um during my time at uh Global Resistance, I got also got involved in No to ID, which was a uh the campaign against um the last time they tried to introduce ID
02:52:28 the last time they tried to introduce ID cards
02:52:29 cards um under the Tony Blair government back in I think it was 2003 around that time. Um now that was a that wasn't a particularly left-wing
02:52:40 that wasn't a particularly left-wing campaign. I mean like one of the people involved was uh Mark Littlewood who later on became the governor of the uh of the um
02:52:49 of the um economic I can't remember what they they uh they organized he and he later then became a an advisor to Liz Truss. That's how far away politically he was from us.
02:53:00 how far away politically he was from us. It was a very broad um it had right-wing libertarians, it had techy um
02:53:05 um privacy geeks, it had me and other people.
02:53:09 people. And he listed everyone's name from the committee and everyone's email address from the committee. And tried to make a thing of them of uh of Net 2 ID being an being a an
02:53:22 of uh of Net 2 ID being an being a an organization he should report on. It's also interesting when uh he talks about when he when he had that um that uh that um um
02:53:33 um tried to justify the cost-effectiveness of the SDS um uh document which we've discussed earlier with regards to the suicide bomber's vest incident. Um he didn't
02:53:44 bomber's vest incident. Um he didn't list
02:53:45 list uh
02:53:46 uh Net 2 ID amongst the large uh list of uh organizations he'd reported on in his time um with the SDS. Um
02:53:56 Um I can't understand why that was made an issue of to be honest with you. And I can't understand why um privacy geeks and and and all the rest of it should should should be reported on.
02:54:08 reported on. It I I know I've heard talk of there was many many more reports he he claimed to have made many more reports than we have seen.
02:54:19 reports than we have seen. Um there's you know the cost of his deployment was from what we we tell was it was immense. I mean he came on a mobilization to New York with us. I
02:54:30 on a mobilization to New York with us. I think we mentioned it earlier. Um on that mobilization, he had a per diem of $324 a day. Um despite the fact that we uh have supplied his accommodation for him.
02:54:41 for him. Um again, he went to to Seville with us with myself and Mr. Douglas. Um and he uh there he had a per diem of 250 odd dollars uh euros a day.
02:54:53 odd dollars uh euros a day. He claimed a lot of money. He claimed I don't know if this hundred pounds was part of his of an expenses claim, but he had a lot of overtime. He worked for the um SDS for a long, long time. He had
02:55:05 um SDS for a long, long time. He had five overseas trips with us. When he went overseas, he had a cover officer traveling with him. After his um after we got the recording off him, uh
02:55:16 after we got the recording off him, uh uh
02:55:18 uh from the uh uh answerphone message we've all heard today, he had a squad car or a a number of coppers outside waiting to rush in if we'd started uh attacking him for being
02:55:29 we'd started uh attacking him for being a police officer. This was a huge amount of money, a huge amount of public funds spent on looking at us who were, you know, quite a quite a jovial group of people
02:55:41 quite a quite a jovial group of people who did we made tanks and we we had uh we we had different ways of trying to get things across. We were never a threat to public order. The police have actually said that in their risk assessments of us. And they they spent
02:55:54 assessments of us. And they they spent all this money on us, and I think it's a huge waste of public money. It's a huge uh violation of our human rights. And it's a it's it's ridiculous. And, you
02:56:06 it's a it's it's ridiculous. And, you know, the fact that this is one of the last
02:56:09 last deployments of um of uh of the SDS is quite fitting because it's it this is a sorry story which was a fitting end to this to the special demonstrations
02:56:20 this to the special demonstrations squad.
02:56:21 squad. Which I should have said that better. But, um yeah. It was a It was It was a ridiculous the whole thing and it should be condemned. Mr. Taylor, sir, may I invite you to rise very briefly to see whether there
02:56:33 rise very briefly to see whether there are um any rule 10s. I I've been given an indication there may be Yes.
02:56:38 Yes. some. Thank Of course. And any re-examination will follow that. Yes, yes.
03:02:09 Mhm.
03:05:45 Yes. So, thank you for the time. Mr. Taylor, may I ask when H10118 was confronted on the 20th of August, 2004 at the Royal Festival
03:05:56 of August, 2004 at the Royal Festival Hall, And can you remember if Noel Douglas was also present during that meeting with 118 where he was confronted? No, he wasn't, I don't think.
03:06:11 In relation to the two points that you mentioned, the report about the the route home and also about no to ID cards,
03:06:22 cards, those two documents have not yet been processed. What I'm going to do is I'm going to read out the MPS number. We're going to try to process those documents in time for 118's evidence next week. But for the record, the references are
03:06:35 But for the record, the references are MPS 0029367
03:06:40 and MPS 0040912. In that way, those documents will not be forgotten. Mr. Taylor, I have no further questions for you and I'm told there's no re-examination, sir.
03:06:54 In which case, may I thank you for coming to give oral evidence
03:06:59 evidence about matters which can only be resolved, if they can be at all, by listening to what all participants have to say about them. Um I'm afraid you won't learn my answer,
03:07:10 Um I'm afraid you won't learn my answer, if any, to those questions until the interim report on the SDS is published next year. I have to ask your patience, but may I express my gratitude to, meanwhile,
03:07:22 express my gratitude to, meanwhile, Well, thank you for listening to me. Don't interrupt me.
03:07:31 I know a great deal about human nature.
03:07:35 Thank you. We I'm forgive me. There will not be a hearing tomorrow. Um the witness who was due to attend give oral evidence has, for reasons which he explained to me in
03:07:46 for reasons which he explained to me in a letter sent yesterday, not felt able to come to give evidence tomorrow. It is to be hoped that he can be called to give evidence on the afternoon of the 19th of this month.
03:07:58 afternoon of the 19th of this month. But, uh
03:08:00 But, uh nothing tomorrow. Thank you, sir. Thank you.