Guy Taylor, a former full-time organizer for the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) and a key figure in Globalize Resistance (GR), provides evidence on the nature of GR's activism, its relationship with the SWP, and the infiltration of the group by undercover officer HN118 (Simon Welling). Taylor disputes claims that GR was a 'militant revolutionary group' or that it had a secret office within SWP headquarters, categorically denying that GR ever engaged in violent direct action.
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00:39:25 Good morning everybody. Today's proceedings are being transmitted. Um, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed.
00:39:35 elapsed. Those with mobile devices may use them to
00:39:38 to report to others what they have heard in the hearing room, but again only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're recording and reporting. Uh, they may not be used for recording
00:39:49 Uh, they may not be used for recording or photography. Yes.
00:39:51 Yes. May the witness be sworn, please?
00:39:57 So please repeat after me, please. I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the
00:40:08 that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. and nothing but the truth. Be seated. Yes.
00:40:18 Yes. I'm going to begin by asking if you could please give us your full name. My name My full name is Guy Nigel Taylor. Mr. Taylor, you provided a witness
00:40:29 Mr. Taylor, you provided a witness statement to the inquiry running to 44 pages. The statement stated the 18th of April, 2025. Please, could you confirm that it is
00:40:40 Please, could you confirm that it is true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes, I I do confirm that, yeah. Thank you. I'd like to begin by exploring some of
00:40:54 I'd like to begin by exploring some of your background and essentially to trace the route how you ended up to be giving evidence to us today. Is it correct that in
00:41:06 Is it correct that in 1984-1985, you were a student in Brighton? That's right, from 1985, I think it was, yeah.
00:41:14 yeah. And is it right that at that time you began to become interested in student politics? That's right, yeah. Could you just tell us a bit about how you first started to become involved in politics
00:41:25 started to become involved in politics in that way? I'm I was dissatisfied with the way the world was going and I was I looked at, you know, some pretty pretty basic facts about the world, the
00:41:36 pretty basic facts about the world, the fact that people are homeless in the in the very rich society, people poor in a very rich society. And I started to question that and I wasn't very
00:41:48 wasn't very I wasn't very convinced of the the official alternative, the Labour Party. Obviously, we saw a a Tory government at that point. I didn't have much faith in that, so I was looking to
00:41:59 so I was looking to more, I suppose, more radical ideas, but also looking towards things I could actually practically do rather than just hope for my representatives in Parliament or in the council to do. So,
00:42:11 Parliament or in the council to do. So, if we move forward in time a few years, in 1990 you became a member of the SWP, is that correct? That's right, yeah. And why did you choose to join the SWP in 1990? Um in
00:42:24 choose to join the SWP in 1990? Um in Brighton it was the biggest and most active group of of of left-wing activists you could you could see, so um that kind of gave me a bit of bit of confidence to get involved really
00:42:36 bit of confidence to get involved really rather than just what being one of two people in a smaller organization. You joined the SWP in 1990, 2 years later you moved to London. That's right.
00:42:48 later you moved to London. That's right. And there you became a student organizer for the SWP, is that right? Yeah, I'd been a a
00:42:56 been a a sabbatical the uh in Sussex area National Union of Students, so I knew the student movement quite well. And uh I think that was a an attractive um
00:43:06 um bit of experience for the SWP to give me that job.
00:43:09 that job. Did that continue to the extent that you became a full-time organizer for the SWP in 1995?
00:43:18 in 1995? Yes, I am I there was a break in my police I mean political employment really. I was a lorry driver and a factory worker for a while in between, but yes I I was a full-time organizer.
00:43:31 but yes I I was a full-time organizer. What does that entail being a full-time organizer for the SWP? Um it was on a daily basis. I I covered Southeast London, so for me that was making sure
00:43:42 London, so for me that was making sure things happened. A weekly meeting for each of our I think we had six branches in Southeast London at the time. I also covered Kent, so it was making sure that there's meetings
00:43:53 it was making sure that there's meetings happening, that people were going out and doing
00:43:56 and doing the selling the newspaper or giving out leaflets or mobilizing for a protest or you know gen- general uh general political activity really. In your statement that you've provided
00:44:08 In your statement that you've provided to the inquiry, you talk about becoming inspired to participate in the new movement against corporate globalization. That's right. Could you help us with how you became
00:44:19 Could you help us with how you became inspired and what inspired you? It's through reading mostly. Um, we I'd been to a talk by Naomi Klein who who wrote the book No Logo which I thought
00:44:31 wrote the book No Logo which I thought was a
00:44:32 was a was a fantastic uh kind of
00:44:35 kind of pulled politics to the now and that and what was
00:44:38 what was uh happening in front of us and around us.
00:44:41 us. And uh another book was uh the one by George Monbiot, Captive State.
00:44:46 State. Um, those two books really kind of you know that
00:44:51 they they kind of made it politics appeal to normal people uh which was something which um you know that that was always something I I I wanted to do. I wanted to get, you know, say, you know, this is happening.
00:45:03 know, say, you know, this is happening. Come and get involved. So, um it was it was those two books and then the uh the protest at Seattle in 1999 against the World Trade Organization. That was um that was a great
00:45:16 That was um that was a great mash of different people from unions, from environmental campaigns, from little socialist groups, from across the whole movement coming together at last to do one thing which
00:45:27 together at last to do one thing which was oppose the World Trade Organization's uh you know neoliberal politics. So, um that for me was really exciting and I and that's when I really wanted to get involved in it. So, a particular event, the Seattle
00:45:39 So, a particular event, the Seattle protests in 1999. Mhm. Following those protests, could you help us with
00:45:46 us with events that particularly influenced your later work in activism? Sure. Sure. Um, well, in that was in 1999 as you say in September.
00:45:57 1999 as you say in September. The following year there was a a meeting of the World Bank and IMF happening in Prague in the Czech Republic.
00:46:06 Republic. And
00:46:08 And I think people in across Europe started thinking, well, this this could be a similar time. It could be a real get get-together of lots of different people. So, I and other people not in the SWP from
00:46:20 I and other people not in the SWP from other parts of the movement I I helped to organize a couple of coaches to take people from London to to Prague for for the protests. Um when I was out there, I bumped into a
00:46:34 Um when I was out there, I bumped into a friend of mine I'd known from my Brighton days. And he was he'd actually cycled [clears throat] from Brighton to Bhopal in India to raise money and awareness for the Bhopal
00:46:46 raise money and awareness for the Bhopal Bhopal campaign the the chemical disaster that happened there
00:46:50 there a number of years before. And it was really exciting to see him just on a on a random demonstration in the country I'd never been to before. And
00:47:00 And and basically we got to talking. And
00:47:04 And we met up after we came back to the UK. And
00:47:10 And we decided that there was
00:47:13 You had the people from the NGOs. You had people from the from the radical left like the SWP and the anarchists and what have you. But there was a huge section of the left which were missing for that protest, especially from the
00:47:24 for that protest, especially from the British mobilization. That was um the unions, the Labour left, you know, and and other people like that. And we still pause you there? You mentioned the
00:47:36 pause you there? You mentioned the unions. What connection did you have if any at that time with people in the trade unions movements? Um as an SWP organizer, you do get involved with trade unions quite a lot
00:47:48 involved with trade unions quite a lot because you you're organizing stuff around workplaces, around you know,
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01:03:07 Taylor, I'd like to go back to 118 statement. So, this is the statement that he's provided to the inquiry. And I was asking you about your reaction to
01:03:20 was asking you about your reaction to his description of globalized resistance as being subordinate to the SWP. But in that same sentence, he also
01:03:31 in that same sentence, he also states this, describing GR as more direct action. Okay? In relation to that description, direct action, and we will see repeatedly it's
01:03:43 action, and we will see repeatedly it's referred to in the reports and various documents that I know that you have seen.
01:03:49 seen. Firstly,
01:03:51 Firstly, direct action, what does what do those words mean to you? When someone describes
01:03:59 describes events as
01:04:01 events as a particular group taking part in direct action, that an activist was involved in direct action, what's your understanding of those words? How would you define them? I think
01:04:12 I think I would describe it as something where people were taking an action which is um is is more related to what they want to achieve. There's I'm an advocate of NVDA, which is
01:04:24 I'm an advocate of NVDA, which is nonviolent direct action, which is maybe sitting down in the street, maybe maybe
01:04:31 maybe some criminal damage maybe on the on the corporate headquarters or something. Could be getting into a into a corporate AGM and standing up and uh
01:04:40 uh and voicing off exactly what you think of the that corporation's behavior. It could be uh sitting down outside a building to blockade it. It could be hanging a
01:04:52 blockade it. It could be hanging a banner from a from a rooftop or something along those lines. So, I I think direct action is quite quite a quite a wide spectrum of things, but
01:05:04 quite a wide spectrum of things, but certainly um you know, in some ways that the
01:05:08 the the actions of breaking into somewhere and uh and and uh disarming a uh a fighter pilot uh a fight fighter airplane or whatever, which has happened recently. That kind of thing can be
01:05:20 recently. That kind of thing can be viewed as direct action as well. I think specifically you you added the words non-violent. So, if the description was non-violent direct action, that GR was a more non-violent
01:05:33 action, that GR was a more non-violent direct action organization. Is that a description that you could agree with as being accurate of Global Resistance? Yes, I think so. Um
01:05:44 Um non-violent direct action, I mean, there was no
01:05:47 was no never in the whole uh history of Global Resistance from the beginning to the end where we didn't where we used violent direct action. There was never in any of that. The the actions we took
01:05:59 The the actions we took were
01:06:00 were sit-downs, um
01:06:03 um perhaps some uh I can't think of any examples right now, but yeah, no none of the things we ever did as Global Resistance were violent. Never.
01:06:12 Never. Now, the rest of it, youth-focused organization. What's your reaction to that as a descriptor of Global Resistance? I think the anti-capitalist movement or the
01:06:24 the anti-capitalist movement or the the
01:06:25 the anti-corporate globalization movement or whatever you want to call it was was a youth was a youthful movement. So, I think it was probably the most exciting thing to get involved in.
01:06:36 thing to get involved in. It sometimes meant joining up with people from different countries and and taking actions and going on marches or having conferences or discussions. So, I think
01:06:46 think that's that's a fair enough way of organizing of of describing our organization, yeah. I'd just like to stay with this paragraph because here 118 is describing in his statement not
01:06:59 118 is describing in his statement not only a description of Global Resistance, but he describes how eventually your paths came to cross. So, he goes on to say, "In the same way that the Anti-Nazi League had done previously, GR
01:07:12 Anti-Nazi League had done previously, GR provided a single topical issue around which the SWP could organize protest and indirectly attract fresh membership and support." And then he goes on says, "During the bedding-in phase of my
01:07:24 "During the bedding-in phase of my deployment, I became a member of the SWP and it was through this that I was diverted to Globalize Resistance." And then this, "To my knowledge, the de facto leaders of GR,
01:07:37 facto leaders of GR, Guy Taylor and Chris Nineham, took their direction from the SWP Central Committee and GR had an office within SWP headquarters, albeit this was kept
01:07:49 headquarters, albeit this was kept secret from the general GR activists." That's a lot in that
01:07:55 in that sentence. Firstly, this description of you and Chris Nineham being de facto leaders of Globalize Resistance, is that accurate?
01:08:06 accurate? Globalize Resistance was run by a committee, a steering committee, an elected steering committee and that
01:08:14 that was open for anyone to stand for for it. Myself and Chris were constant members of that committee and I think
01:08:23 think it would be accurate to say we had quite a lot of influence in the way that, you know, we had the vision at the beginning. We we were the people that organized the original conference. So, I think that kind of thing does give you
01:08:34 I think that kind of thing does give you a bit of authority in some ways, but there's no there was no um
01:08:39 um there's no structure that ensured that was the case. So, it was a a question of us putting forward ideas. Sometimes our ideas were taken up and acted upon and sometimes not.
01:08:51 sometimes not. I just want to add actually at the end of that sentence, GR had an office within the SWP headquarters, albeit kept secret from the gen- That is that is not true. Absolutely not true. I never had a uh
01:09:02 uh From the moment I started working for Globalise Resistance, I we first had an office in uh in a uh business center in um in uh Stepney Green, and then we moved
01:09:14 in uh Stepney Green, and then we moved the Old Truman Brewery in uh in Brick Lane. They were the only offices GR ever had. I don't know where he gets this spurious office in the SWP headquarters from.
01:09:26 headquarters from. Chris Nineham that who's referred to that who who was he to you? Was he a friend? Was he How how did you come into contact with Chris Nineham? [clears throat] I'd known Chris for quite a long time and uh he was another
01:09:38 quite a long time and uh he was another member of the SWP who was uh an organizer while I was, so I'd been to many meetings with him. And uh he was a man of uh a great political intellect, so uh I was
01:09:50 a great political intellect, so uh I was uh I was I was um yeah. Very very keen to work with him, actually.
01:09:55 actually. I
01:09:55 I wonder if you can take that document down, please. And I'm going to um
01:10:03 ask you now about
01:10:08 the approach that Globalise Resistance took to You've talked about direct action and nonviolent direct action. But I'm going to ask you about a specific
01:10:19 I'm going to ask you about a specific topic of breaking the law. And in this respect, it may assist I wonder if we can just return to Mr. Taylor's witness statement, please,
01:10:30 Mr. Taylor's witness statement, please, at paragraph 21, because you cover this topic there. And I just want to ask you some questions about it.
01:10:47 Okay. And so, can see here paragraph 21, in particular point two, breaking the law. We We advocate or provoke law breaking. We
01:10:58 advocate or provoke law breaking. We would defend the right of people to effectively protest using nonviolent direct action. Can you just assist, please, with the
01:11:10 Can you just assist, please, with the extent to which globalized resistance was willing to break the law?
01:11:26 We weren't experts on the law, to be perfectly honest with you, and um probably made a habit of not talking to solicitors before taking an action, so we
01:11:36 we uh
01:11:36 uh could remain that way. Um I think we
01:11:42 most likely I mean I'm thinking of a couple of examples in in
01:11:48 in in London. There was one time when Henry Kissinger came to speak at the Royal Albert Hall, where we we had a
01:11:57 had a we had a protest at our protest was a street theater. We we put a giant puppet of Henry Henry Kissinger on trial and had judges and various uh uh actors playing roles um to uh
01:12:11 uh actors playing roles um to uh to get the story of Henry Kissinger and his his record across to people. And after that, when we were crossing the road to to go into the organized pen that the police had kindly put out for us,
01:12:23 police had kindly put out for us, we sat down in the road and and blockaded it. I suppose that's obstruction. I suppose that's a that's a crime in some ways. Um it was that type of thing we we we
01:12:34 Um it was that type of thing we we we participated in, so I mean I don't think it was a
01:12:37 it was a there was there was never any any, you know, kind of big crimes where people could conceivably uh face incarceration or whatever as a result. We we it was low low-level stuff
01:12:50 result. We we it was low low-level stuff like blockades and what have you. And
01:12:55 And following on from that and you describe at
01:12:59 at the approach to public disorder. You stated that it wasn't part of globalize resistance aims, but when it happened, we were sure of two things. We would take advantage of any platform or media
01:13:12 take advantage of any platform or media that came from it. And secondly, in any argument between the establishment, primarily politicians and media and activists, we were on the side
01:13:23 activists, we were on the side of the activists. Could you
01:13:26 Could you help us with this in terms of globalize resistance approach to public order,
01:13:32 order, it wasn't the aim of globalize resistance, but did it happen?
01:13:39 It was Sorry, did globalize resistance and we will look in in more detail in due course, but did it prompt public public disorder taking place?
01:13:52 public disorder taking place? No. No. No, we we we were mobilizers. We were very effective mobilizers. We we put people on the streets to take actions to put forward an alternative view of of
01:14:04 put forward an alternative view of of the world. We were basically in a in a in a propaganda battle between um
01:14:11 um the
01:14:12 the politicians and the media and and ourselves
01:14:15 ourselves to to say that's wrong, you know, our
01:14:19 our our arguments here are correct and we wanted to make that that make those points as best we could. So, putting lots of people on the street was one thing. I mean like, you know, when we did take people to Genoa for the G8,
01:14:32 we did take people to Genoa for the G8, I think that was the biggest mobilization of British people to an overseas demonstration ever. Um I'm pretty sure it was. Um so, you know, we we we organized, we
01:14:43 Um so, you know, we we we organized, we facilitated people taking part in legitimate political actions. Mostly marches, to be honest with you. And uh and and sometimes other things. I mean, like the the vast majority of the actions we took
01:14:55 the vast majority of the actions we took were were big organized marches. Maybe with the Stop the War Coalition, maybe maybe stuff we we organized ourselves. But um you know, that was the that was the the bread and butter of what we did. And
01:15:07 bread and butter of what we did. And there was uh other times where we would do things like big spec- spectacular stunts, like the putting Kissinger on trial, make making huge banners, banner drops from
01:15:18 huge banners, banner drops from uh Westminster Bridge and what have you. So,
01:15:20 So, I I think the the I the I we certainly when things got uh when when things were were violent on demonstrations, that changed
01:15:31 violent on demonstrations, that changed things in the way of we that the the media started taking notice. I mean, I'd been a political activist for a dozen years beforehand. And
01:15:40 And time and again, the experience was go on a demonstration, go on a march, come back home again, nothing's changed, nothing said, no one said anything. So, when
01:15:50 when uh
01:15:51 uh the media was did turn its cameras towards us, normally for the wrong reasons, for for for there's been a bit of a scuffle or whatever. If someone wants to uh point a camera at me and uh and and I'll
01:16:02 point a camera at me and uh and and I'll then and I'll give them my point of view, absolutely we took advantage of that. But it it was not we never we never uh
01:16:09 never uh tried to provoke that type of situation. That that's that's um that was there mostly down to what the police's actions were. And you can see the third point there is subversion. In your
01:16:20 point there is subversion. In your statement, you say, "I'm proud of what we achieved, challenging capitalism." But then you say, "I don't believe in any way that what we did would justify being labeled
01:16:31 what we did would justify being labeled as a subversive and being spied upon." So, in the sense of intending to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy.
01:16:44 democracy. Your position is that
01:16:48 is not subversive in any way, is it? I think so. Especially at those times, but even now, you know, opposition to capitalism and what it does what it does to our planet, what it does to workers
01:16:59 to our planet, what it does to workers rights, what it does to consumers rights, what it does to ordinary people is a very popular idea and to call it subversive is would be to try and say what a large number of people in society
01:17:11 what a large number of people in society actually believe in and and concur with is some some way subversive. It's it's an alternative viewpoint, but I don't think it's it's trying to undermine society completely. I think
01:17:23 completely. I think you know,
01:17:24 you know, I'm sure other people got different different
01:17:26 different definitions of subversive, but it's used as a as an excuse to send people to spy on us and that that for me was actually unbelievable. I mean, on the question of violence,
01:17:38 I mean, on the question of violence, um
01:17:39 um I've never been arrested or convicted or even suggested that I've been violent and also
01:17:47 and also towards the end of of of the documents which we've been served with, there was a very interesting one. I think it was written by Andy Rintoul
01:17:58 Andy Rintoul and it was a risk assessment on on on Globalize Resistance after Simon Welling 118 had been we'd actually found found out that he
01:18:09 we'd actually found found out that he had been [clears throat] talking to the police about about our actions and the risk assessment decided that we weren't violent and that's I think it's worth saying that here
01:18:20 here that
01:18:21 that there was never any question of us being violent and the police actually concurred with that. Before asking you about how you came to meet HN118, I just want to ask
01:18:33 came to meet HN118, I just want to ask you about one further document that describes Globalize Resistance. It is search your tab C8. It is MPS 0041006,
01:18:45 search your tab C8. It is MPS 0041006, please.
01:18:49 So, this is a description of Globalise Resistance, also descent, but it is Globalise Resistance that I want to um ask you about. And can you see the last
01:19:00 ask you about. And can you see the last uh paragraph there? It says, "Al- Bia'a is a militant revolutionary group." Now, pausing there,
01:19:11 there, this document doing the best that we can, we have as an inquiry have dated this as the 23rd of February 2005 that this document was produced. And so, it describes Globalise
01:19:24 produced. And so, it describes Globalise Resistance as a militant revolutionary group.
01:19:28 group. Can I ask you for your uh reaction to that?
01:19:33 that? How accurate is that description of Globalise Resistance? I'd say it's not true. Um
01:19:38 true. Um Globalise Resistance was a gathering of people of different of different political [clears throat] viewpoints. I mean, we we called it an anti-capitalist group. And
01:19:49 anti-capitalist group. And anti-capitalism for for me was, you know, it was a rejection of the way things are run. Uh anti-capitalism also comes from when you place a demand on the system,
01:20:00 you place a demand on the system, perhaps,
01:20:01 perhaps, let's take action, decisive and and and complete action to stop climate change. That is a that is a demand that capitalism cannot find itself capable of delivering. And therefore, when you ask such
01:20:13 And therefore, when you ask such questions and the and and and capitalism finds it impossible to to to concur, you become anti-capitalist. So, that's that's reason why we use that term. I think um
01:20:25 I think um Globalise Resistance was a mixture of people of socialists, of libertarians, of um anarchists, of all people of many labels and many
01:20:36 all people of many labels and many people of no label at all who just wanted to see you know, some pertinent questions asked and some and some definite actions taken. Well, let's continue with the descriptions. So,
01:20:47 continue with the descriptions. So, while being a GR as a militant revolutionary group, it is also a pragmatic one, does not openly endorse violence as an everyday means for achieving its aims. And then this, the
01:20:58 achieving its aims. And then this, the threat from GR is principally from the ability of the organization to get onto the streets at short notice large numbers of radicalized usually young
01:21:11 numbers of radicalized usually young people who will nevertheless be prepared to engage with the forces of the state should they perceive any injustice or heavy-handedness by those forces. GR has
01:21:23 heavy-handedness by those forces. GR has been represented at all the main international anti-globalization gatherings since the Seattle riots. So, that description of the words used, the threat from
01:21:34 of the words used, the threat from Global Resistance, is the ability of it to get people onto the streets at short notice and that those people radicalized, prepared to engage with the
01:21:46 radicalized, prepared to engage with the forces of the state. Is that accurate?
01:21:52 It's interesting here that 118 uses
01:21:56 118 uses actually very in a very half-hearted way says, you know, we we're good at mobilizing, but if they if if the people in the protest
01:22:07 they if if the people in the protest perceive any injustice or heavy-handedness by those forces. So, in some ways I would say, yeah, he's he's he's he's edging towards the correct answer here in the in the way that we mobilize and if if if the police
01:22:20 that we mobilize and if if if the police do do take a heavy-handed attitude to to protest, people people will resist it. I think that's um that's almost there. I wouldn't have put it in the same way. I would have
01:22:32 it in the same way. I would have been far more definite about it, but we were good mobilizers, as I said previously, and um
01:22:38 um if if if the police attack a protest, they're the ones that come prepared to do things like that. Mostly, protesters haven't got any any any form of of of weaponry or armory on
01:22:50 any form of of of weaponry or armory on them. If that happens, you know, what what what should people do? I think um you know, in in some ways, he's he's stumbled across a half-hearted way of saying what is
01:23:01 a half-hearted way of saying what is correct. Well, I'm going to ask you about
01:23:04 about those words, good mobilizers. Could you help us in terms of numbers? What sort of numbers at this time? So, this was written about 2005, so in the early 2000s.
01:23:15 2000s. How many numbers of people could globalize resistance bring out? Well, um
01:23:22 um I think to to Genoa, in the which is a very difficult mobilization, given the distance, I think we probably took over 1,000 people. Um
01:23:32 Um on protests or actions here, there's many many different different uh influencing uh uh
01:23:42 uh influencing factors on every single mobilization, cuz there isn't uh you know, they're weekday, if they're you know, if if there's an issue which is really um concurring with what what people are
01:23:53 concurring with what what people are feeling at the time. So, I'd say say, for example, on a on one of the protests against the arms fair in East East East London, which were happening every other year, we'd probably take a couple of hundred people. But then, if
01:24:06 couple of hundred people. But then, if we if there was a big protest there was a big protest at the end of the European Social Forum in London, where we probably had a few thousand. Um so, it could be anything, really, up to
01:24:17 could be anything, really, up to up to I don't know, maybe 5,000 maximum. What would you say if someone made the point that there was at least some justification
01:24:28 at least some justification in the police putting someone into a group like Globalise Resistance who could
01:24:35 could as you've described bring thousands of people on onto the streets of London. What would you accept that there was any justification for essentially tabs being kept on on such a
01:24:48 essentially tabs being kept on on such a group for public order reasons? Well, there's there was never any public order threat from from that. Mobilizing people to a protest is a legitimate form of political action
01:25:01 is a legitimate form of political action which is which should be you should be lauded actually to to actually facilitate people taking a part taking a role in the in in society and actually voicing their opinions. I think
01:25:12 actually voicing their opinions. I think it's a very positive thing. I think um the idea of putting someone actually paying someone a full-time wage just to look at us when we most of the things we did and we we we were planning
01:25:24 things we did and we we we were planning were on our website anyway. I mean I can't I to this day I can't believe we were worthwhile just looking at in that way. I I think it was completely over the top. Um we never
01:25:36 completely over the top. Um we never planned violence. We never and you can tell from Wellington's reports he he never reports on us planning of a fight with the police. There's one time
01:25:47 with the police. There's one time Chris Nineham apparently asked me to be on standby to kick things off with the police or on a demonstration which I wouldn't know how to set set about doing that. We will we will come to that report but
01:25:59 We will we will come to that report but let let's turn now to 118's reporting. I wonder sir it's behind your tab B2. If we could please bring up on screen MPS 1006341.
01:26:15 Now 118 produced you can see the format of the intelligence report. So, there's the the date information obtained, and then the
01:26:26 information obtained, and then the typing date. So, going to be referring to quite a few of these reports. I'll probably choose the typing date just to date it, but you can see this is dated the 26th of July 2001.
01:26:39 the 26th of July 2001. So, this is the earliest report that HN118 produced. Now, he produced a couple more the same date, and they're they're very
01:26:50 the same date, and they're they're very similar. But, let's just have a look at the way it's set out. So, you can see title, Globalize Resistance, your name Guy Taylor, Intelligence Groundhog Day. So, this is the code name that HN118 was
01:27:02 So, this is the code name that HN118 was originally given. And then, Guy Taylor, one of the leading figures within Globalize Resistance, is using the following mobile phone number. And the two other reports dated the same day
01:27:15 two other reports dated the same day reporting similar information about people's telephone numbers. But, here we have his first report. It is about you and providing your mobile telephone
01:27:29 providing your mobile telephone number. And it's I've got to ask in terms of the date of this. So, this is 26th of July 2001. Does that help you anchor the time when
01:27:40 Does that help you anchor the time when you first met 118?
01:27:45 I suppose I don't I've been racking my brains trying to remember the first time I met him, and I really can't. Um I think one of the things that comes up
01:27:57 I think one of the things that comes up from other people's reports of of
01:28:00 of 118 was that he was a very forgettable person. Um and I think it worked on me on that one. Um It's quite incredible this report actually.
01:28:12 actually. It's saying my mobile phone number, which had been in The Guardian the previous year. It's not exactly um
01:28:18 um startling news to anyone. And I'd have been in touch with the police many times organizing protests, so um um I think they had my phone number, anyway. But uh yeah, I I can't remember the first time I met him, to be honest
01:28:29 the first time I met him, to be honest with you.
01:28:30 with you. I'm going to refer you to another document which might assist. I wonder at so it's your tab C10. It is NPS0721966,
01:28:39 please. [cough and clears throat]
01:28:46 So, this document here, Mr. Taylor, is Operation Heron notes of an interview with 118.
01:28:57 with 118. Uh and this interview took place in September 2013. Uh and you can see that in If we I wonder if we can turn to page three,
01:29:08 wonder if we can turn to page three, please.
01:29:16 So, this is a description If you look at 1 2 3 4 paragraphs down, so this says 118.
01:29:23 118. A description of 118. So, it's not long after [clears throat] this invitation, he did sign up to the SWP and began paper selling a couple of times a week. Okay, so this description of
01:29:35 of by 118 of what he did, um selling SWP uh papers. And then he says this, "The shining star of globalized resistance was Guy Taylor,
01:29:48 resistance was Guy Taylor, and he worked out of the offices in Brick Lane. He started going along to globalized meetings." So, this is referring to 118 going along to globalized meetings and volunteering in the office. It was not
01:29:59 volunteering in the office. It was not difficult to get involved as it was all about raising the profile of the group. So, here 118 is describing in 2013
01:30:11 So, here 118 is describing in 2013 how he
01:30:13 how he infiltrated Globalise Resistance. But, this um suggestion of volunteering in the office uh
01:30:22 uh is that something that uh would not have stood out at all? People saying, "Hello, I'd like to volunteer. How can I help Globalise Resistance?" Is that
01:30:33 Is that unremarkable or does it stand out in any way? It was It was unremarkable to me. We We I had a a series of people coming into the office to help out. Um
01:30:44 into the office to help out. Um who people who had the time. I mean, uh obviously, most people are working during the day and they don't have the time to come in and then if someone's got part-time job or they they worked on projects with
01:30:55 or they they worked on projects with gaps in between, that was quite That was quite frequent to happen. I mean, I never really had suspicions that we we would be infiltrated. Um
01:31:06 would be infiltrated. Um I
01:31:07 I You know,
01:31:08 You know, as I said before, I didn't understand why we were. So, um I I just thought, you know, someone's keen, get them involved. Um show them respect, show them trust, and show them
01:31:19 respect, show them trust, and show them you know, kind of uh enthusiasm. As you've said, you you thought about this, but this description of him volunteering in the office, that doesn't ring any bells
01:31:27 bells with you in relation to that actually? No, I mean, I We had some regular volunteers. I think he did He might have done the odd day, um but I don't think he came in regularly but, you know, kind of once a
01:31:39 regularly but, you know, kind of once a week or whatever. Well, let's let's move to the next paragraph, please, in this because
01:31:45 because this is the description that's given. The big step to gain access into the inner sanctum came in January 2002.
01:31:59 came in January 2002. He was in a lift with Taylor and another male, and they were discussing the WEF World Economic Forum in New York. They were aware that he had a job and
01:32:11 They were aware that he had a job and income, so suggested that he could get the money together to go to New York to the demonstrations. Now, this is described as a big step
01:32:22 described as a big step to getting into the inner sanctum of globalised resistance. This is January 2002 from the description. So, just putting that in the context of that first report. The first report providing your mobile telephone number
01:32:34 providing your mobile telephone number is 26th of July 2001. So, we have about 6 months later this
01:32:42 this instance in the lift. Now, from that description, does that ring any bells at all?
01:32:47 all? I don't remember that incident in the Well, that conversation in the lift. Um I did I mean, for these overseas protests, they were
01:32:59 for these overseas protests, they were they happened reasonably frequently. I mean, there were probably about four or five a year at that point. And we would invite everyone. Um I don't think it was a a specific um
01:33:11 I don't think it was a a specific um honor for for Wellings to be invited to to to it. Lots of other people would be. Um Anyone who could afford it and uh and and had the time would be welcome to come with us.
01:33:23 time would be welcome to come with us. let Let This is a a discussion about going to New York. I'm going to ask if we could turn to page four to see what the description is after he gets back from New York.
01:33:34 after he gets back from New York. So, you can see on the third paragraph on page four it states
01:33:42 it states Uh and again, this is notes of an interview of 118 in 2013. He says, "On his return from New York, he, referring to 118, quite quickly
01:33:55 he, referring to 118, quite quickly became one of the leading lights in globalised resistance. He continued to feed intelligence back and reported lots.
01:34:05 lots. So, the description, the way in which he's describing is that he has this uh
01:34:11 uh big step
01:34:13 big step gaining access into the inner sanctum when he has this discussion with you in a lift,
01:34:19 a lift, goes to New York, and then the description is by the time he comes back, he's describing himself as one of the leading lights in globalised resistance.
01:34:30 lights in globalised resistance. Does that
01:34:32 Does that uh help in pinpoint when he first came into your consciousness, when you first became aware of HN118, who
01:34:43 who gave you the name Simon Wellings? I I certainly remember him in New York. Um there was I think there was about half a dozen of us there. So, um you know, he he definitely And I I remember him from
01:34:54 he definitely And I I remember him from before then. Um
01:34:58 Um but this
01:34:59 but this I I think this this document actually um is uh is quite typical of uh Simon Wellings completely overplaying his role and his standing. Um
01:35:11 and his standing. Um The I don't know what the inner sanctum of globalised resistance uh is meant to be. I think it must be the steering committee. Um
01:35:18 Um but uh
01:35:19 but uh it basically that was an elected body and uh it wasn't that difficult to get elected on it if you showed the the enthusiasm and the determination to get to to be involved, really. So, um there was a
01:35:31 involved, really. So, um there was a there was a whole plethora of people who were who were on the steering committee. Um
01:35:37 Um so, I mean, like [snorts]
01:35:38 [snorts] to say what he was one of the leading lights is
01:35:41 lights is I don't know. I don't know what that means, really, for him, because uh I don't think he was ever a leading light in any in any fashion, really. Uh
01:35:51 Uh I asked you about the report where he notes down your mobile telephone number, the description of the lift going to New York. But can I ask you this, what do
01:36:05 York. But can I ask you this, what do you remember as being having thought about this the first time or roughly the first time that you met
01:36:14 met 118?
01:36:15 118? When when was that? What's your earliest My earliest memory of him was
01:36:24 wearing I think it was it was it was on a march. I don't know which march. It was on some demonstration where he was he was
01:36:33 he was always keen to help basically is offering to to help out on a stall or I mean
01:36:41 I mean our income was primarily derived from membership fees and and selling stuff on protest and he was
01:36:48 was happy to help us sell t-shirts and badges on on a protest. So it was it was doing that kind of thing was was my earliest memory. His dress sense he always wore kind of
01:36:59 His dress sense he always wore kind of like um
01:37:01 like um kind of
01:37:02 kind of beige
01:37:03 beige combats and stuff like that and I just thought it was a bit odd but um each their own really. Um So yeah I can't I think that was that was my earliest memories but they're not specifically
01:37:15 memories but they're not specifically placed in one demonstration or on one date really. He he just appeared. When 118 was asked to provide a statement so one of the questions
01:37:26 one of the questions he is asked was who he was closest to. And
01:37:32 And in his statement he says that he was probably closest to and have been considered to be a friend by. He names a number of people but
01:37:43 by. He names a number of people but yours is the first name that he mentions.
01:37:46 mentions. So in terms of that description, describing himself as probably closest to you, and that you would have considered him a friend,
01:37:57 considered him a friend, would you agree with that? Were you, before of course you knew who he was, did you consider him a friend?
01:38:10 I was um heavily influenced in my time in the SWP by a man called Duncan Hallas, who was a who was a working-class intellectual. He's now uh he's now dead.
01:38:21 he's now dead. And he came to speak in my district when I was an organizer there. And I was talking to him about this lad who was um uh I think he was a poster worker. We tried I was trying to get him involved, and he couldn't he couldn't come through
01:38:33 and he couldn't he couldn't come through to meetings cuz he had to get up early and if
01:38:35 and if And and Duncan said to me, "Look, he's a member of your organization. You treat him like gold dust." And that's what I wanted to do. That's what my policy was. In In Globalize Resistance, if people
01:38:46 In In Globalize Resistance, if people came along and wanted to get involved, I treated them with respect, with um interest, and to try and get them involved, and to show them trust. And that's what I did with Simon Wellings.
01:38:57 that's what I did with Simon Wellings. Now, if he interpreted it that as me being his best mate, fair enough. I was happy for him to think that. And I wanted, you know, my job was to kind of get things moving, get things organized. So, he showed a
01:39:09 organized. So, he showed a a propensity for doing stuff online and doing websites. So, I said, "Yeah, you do the website. Get Get involved. Do it." And it was that attitude of trying to get get people to contribute, and
01:39:20 to get get people to contribute, and show them that we valued them. It was a was a very important part of Globalize Resistance. That's why it was so popular. Did you ever socialize with him? Yeah, I mean, like after every meeting ended up in a pub, to be honest
01:39:32 meeting ended up in a pub, to be honest with you. I mean, I was very keen on that side of things. But, in relation to what you've just described, any No, yeah, he'd always be invited to to the pub.
01:39:43 How many people after meetings, after demonstrations, ended up in the pub? Was it a much smaller, more intimate group? Was that a
01:39:55 smaller, more intimate group? Was that a particularly special group? Again, it would vary, but I mean like sometimes we had to get the biggest table in the pub or you know, go upstairs to have a bit of space. Quite often there was dozens of us. Um, so it wouldn't be the case
01:40:07 of us. Um, so it wouldn't be the case that I'll be talking to him every time. There'll be people next to me I'll be talking to and they'll be talking to other people. So, um, yeah, I mean like it was it was quite quite a pub-friendly organization.
01:40:19 quite quite a pub-friendly organization. Well,
01:40:19 Well, I asked about socializing and you described going to the pub, but is it right that when you were in that environment and sometimes maybe going to a sort of a room upstairs in the pub,
01:40:30 a sort of a room upstairs in the pub, is it that sort sort of environment where maybe discussions about more
01:40:39 more extreme
01:40:41 extreme actions would take place, not in open meetings, but when there was a few of you left after meetings going to the pub?
01:40:49 pub? During those conversations, of course socializing, of course drinking, but in in those circumstances, is that where the discussions maybe turned to areas that were more controversial? Would you
01:41:01 that were more controversial? Would you would you agree with that? Not to my knowledge, no, not to my memory, of course. Um, I mean certainly there would be if something had happened, you know, on a
01:41:14 something had happened, you know, on a May Day process or whatever, the discussions about that would would would take place, but um, certainly not um, certainly not planning anything like that, no. So, if someone were to suggest
01:41:27 that, no. So, if someone were to suggest that
01:41:29 that although
01:41:30 although you described the website, and I'll ask you some more details about that in due course, although you have a number of public meetings, websites, flyers explaining what you're going to do.
01:41:41 explaining what you're going to do. If someone were to say, if you really wanted to find out what was what was happening, and really find out those particular discussions about actions that perhaps
01:41:52 discussions about actions that perhaps might prompt public disorder, those sorts of conversations would take place in the more intimate environment, for example, like in a room upstairs in a pub, and that is just the sort of
01:42:05 that is just the sort of reason why an undercover officer was deployed because he can get into such group. So, terms if someone said to you that there was justification in
01:42:16 to you that there was justification in putting an undercover officer into that group because that's the only way in which
01:42:22 which informant certain information could be gleaned, what would your response be to that? I don't think any any such discussions happened in those times. I mean,
01:42:32 mean, there'd be stories shared and what have you, but there I mean, like to plan something violent or something a bit more extreme, I I don't I don't recall that ever happening. I mean, we did what we said
01:42:45 happening. I mean, we did what we said on the tin, and we we we were not hiding stuff from people and trying to do something a bit sneaky uh underneath that. I mean, we were quite honest in that in that
01:42:56 we were quite honest in that in that way. Your description of 118 in your statement as you described me as pleasant enough and and also a bit boring. Yeah. Now, I want to ask you about what you
01:43:07 Now, I want to ask you about what you observed about his conduct in the environment that you described in in the pub afterwards. How How did he conduct himself
01:43:20 How How did he conduct himself as far as you saw on those occasions? Well, he never bought a round. Um but um he he certainly
01:43:31 but um he he certainly The thing is that there'll there'll be, you know events a world events would happen and we would discuss them and then we would discuss the politics. What do you think is going to happen as a result of this attack on Iraq or but
01:43:42 result of this attack on Iraq or but what you know what would be the impact for people and there's political discussions going on and he he rarely really really in in in involved himself in them. I'm going to show you a document that might
01:43:53 going to show you a document that might explain why I asked you that question. I wonder if we could please put up on screen search your tab C 10. It's MPS 0721996.
01:44:10 Okay, so this is the document we were looking at but I'm going to ask if we can turn to page eight in this document. So this is again the notes of an interview with 118
01:44:22 again the notes of an interview with 118 in 2013. Can you see in the middle of the page there was there's that heading criminality? [clears throat] And then the second paragraph of that states this, he did not take any drugs
01:44:34 states this, he did not take any drugs or smoke but he did drink. He believes that his intake levels of alcohol would have been in excess of maybe 100 pints a month not including other alcoholic
01:44:45 month not including other alcoholic drinks. And so my question to you about the way in which he conducted himself when you saw him in
01:44:54 in did
01:44:55 did you ever see him for example drink to excess at all? I
01:44:59 I I don't
01:45:00 I don't remember I I I remember was thinking at one point that he he actually didn't drink that much. Um
01:45:09 Yeah, I I don't actually remember this that that that paragraph but um I would have a severe look at his expenses claim. Um I I I think his 100 pints a month is
01:45:20 I I I think his 100 pints a month is just fantasy. Um not with us anyway. He might have gone off to have a few pints afterwards but I I I can't I can't ever think I didn't drink that much and I was very keen on the on
01:45:31 that much and I was very keen on the on on pub life at the time.
01:45:36 Under pints that's a lot.
01:45:40 You have heard that
01:45:44 that other undercover officers that part of their um
01:45:52 um their training or what they're told is that they shouldn't act as agent provocateurs. Okay? So, they're there to observe take intelligence, report it back, but not to act as an agent provocateur. And
01:46:06 not to act as an agent provocateur. And given
01:46:07 given your contact with 118
01:46:12 would you agree that he did not act as an agent provocateur at any point? Well, there was two parts to this actually. There was Firstly, he would
01:46:26 actually. There was Firstly, he would at least
01:46:29 at steering committee meetings he he would I can't really remember him putting forward ideas, but he would normally back the most radical idea of any action there was. So, he would and
01:46:40 any action there was. So, he would and he was he was much more keen on the on calling the police filth and you know, like our pushing for the most radical actions. So,
01:46:51 radical actions. So, there's one time which really comes to mind was uh when George Bush was in London um and there was big demonstration and he was due to go to the uh um
01:47:03 and he was due to go to the uh um US Ambassador's um residency in in Regent's Park. And basically uh we got wind of this. We rushed down to Hyde Park Corner to uh to
01:47:14 rushed down to Hyde Park Corner to uh to you know, protest at the presidential cavalcade going past and myself and one other activist were uh from GR were part of a small number of people, probably I don't know,
01:47:25 number of people, probably I don't know, 20 or 30 people that got surrounded by the police quite quickly. And Welling's wasn't in that uh containment. He was outside, and he was like, "I can't go in there." And he was he was you know,
01:47:37 in there." And he was he was you know, his actions to me were saying, "Why don't you
01:47:40 don't you hit the police or whatever?" Which would have been a mad thing to do at the time because we were heavily outnumbered and
01:47:46 and I'm not very good at hitting people. So, basically, I think he So, he did encourage that quite consistently throughout his time with us. Um
01:47:57 with us. Um he, you know, but uh when it came to came to actually on the street and and doing things, he was he was always there to push things and push things a little further than perhaps we
01:48:09 things a little further than perhaps we we were prepared to go anyway. What What you've described is um an instance in 2003
01:48:18 in 2003 when George Bush visited London. And And you've described physically what what he did. I'm just going to just ask you a bit more detail about that. So, you
01:48:29 you demonstrated that he was he was hitting his fist into into his his palm. But who was that directed towards when he was doing that? I I thought it was directed to me and the
01:48:40 thought it was directed to me and the other other activists that he knew. Um What were you doing at the time that he was demonstrating this action? Well, there was one other person in the uh in the little containment had a had a sound
01:48:53 the little containment had a had a sound system and um I think he was playing Trapped by Colonel Abrahams, and we were dancing to that.
01:49:02 Were there any police in the vicinity? Oh, yeah, we were surrounded by the police, yeah.
01:49:11 Apart from this incident, though, can you remember any other occasion when he was encouraging
01:49:21 in the way you've described. Yeah. when George Bush visited. There was one protest we had at Selfridges, um
01:49:32 um which was against the sale of uh of um Palestinian goods that that had been uh labeled uh Israeli. And um so there people inside the shop and
01:49:43 so there people inside the shop and outside I was outside the shop for the entire protest, but um he was really trying to get people to push their way in past the uh security guards there. Um
01:49:54 Um and I I
01:49:55 and I I I
01:49:55 I I I actually had a word with him afterwards, not not immediately afterwards, I think the next time I saw him, to say that was a bit much. He I mean, I you know, you've got to be a bit more careful than that. You're going to get someone arrested at some point.
01:50:07 get someone arrested at some point. And he got Oh, well, okay. Um so yeah, that that that that concerned me. Looking back, and of course it was some time ago now, but is it correct that those two episodes
01:50:20 is it correct that those two episodes stand out as the high point of him, I was asking you about acting as an agent provocateur, maybe whipping things up, but it's the the pushing that you had to talk to him
01:50:31 the pushing that you had to talk to him about in relation to past the security guards in Selfridges, um but also the the the
01:50:38 the the the punching his palm um at the uh George Bush visit. Would you agree that with those two events the high point of it? Well,
01:50:49 events the high point of it? Well, they're the bits I witnessed. I mean, mostly on a demonstration you you're not you can't see everyone all the time. And uh certainly I would I I would I would not witness to most of the time he spent on a protest.
01:51:01 most of the time he spent on a protest. So, um
01:51:02 So, um I don't know if there was others. They could well have been, but that was They were the bits I saw. Um so you I don't know if they're high points. So, I it was silly little incidents, I thought.
01:51:16 You just Your words "silly little incidents", but can I just before leaving this topic, ask if we could please go back to Mr. Taylor's statement at at page
01:51:27 statement at at page 34.
01:51:40 Now, [clears throat] this is a part of the table where you you comment on a number of reports by 118. But, I I want to look at the top
01:51:51 But, I I want to look at the top right-hand box, which is
01:51:56 which is your reaction. I wonder Sorry, if we can have the last um Yes, we'll just leave it like that. So, you can see you're responding to uh what Mr. uh what 118 has stated. It was clear to me that even if minor
01:52:07 was clear to me that even if minor criminal activity was generally permissible, U C could not provoke or encourage activists or other other to participate in criminal activity. So, this is 118 in his statement explaining
01:52:18 this is 118 in his statement explaining that um
01:52:21 that um yes, minor criminal activity permissible, but you couldn't provoke or encourage. And your reaction to that in your statement, you say this, "Strange then that I have a very distinct memory
01:52:33 then that I have a very distinct memory of being kettled at Hyde Park Corner during attempt disrupt the journey of US President Bush to the US Ambassador's residence", what you were describing. And then you say this, "Wellings was not
01:52:45 And then you say this, "Wellings was not in the containment, but was in sight clearly encouraging us to attack his police
01:52:53 police colleagues."
01:52:57 Is Is that Is Is that accurate? Just so we're clear in terms of what you're setting out in your statement, that he was encouraging uh you to attack
01:53:09 uh you to attack police colleagues. Is that right? I I don't think there was any other way of interpreting his his actions at that time. I think I mean either that or no, I
01:53:21 either that or no, I it would be impossible for him to be encouraging the police that would blown his cover encouraging the police to attack us. He was certainly trying to raise the temperature in that confinement through
01:53:32 confinement through violent actions of one side against another and I I do believe it was encouraging us to attack the police. Yes, absolutely. Your evidence he was encouraging it, but
01:53:44 Your evidence he was encouraging it, but you did not attack the police despite what you didn't attack the police despite I wouldn't not that stupid. Turning back to
01:53:55 Turning back to 118 and we and you were describing his conduct even when in drink. You've um indicated where as here uh here he encouraged others.
01:54:07 uh here he encouraged others. Did you see [clears throat] any instances where he committed any criminal offenses at all from
01:54:15 from your time
01:54:17 your time viewing his conduct. Did he ever either during a demonstration or indeed out outside it? Were you ever aware that he was committing any criminal offenses? I don't recall seeing any of that, no.
01:54:31 And again in addition to the demonstration that you showed of him punching his fists did you see him engage in violence himself
01:54:42 himself on any demonstrations or again outside of those?
01:54:45 of those? Not not personally, no, I didn't.
01:54:51 You have been following this inquiry closely and you will have been aware of a number of undercover officers who engaged in completely inappropriate
01:55:05 who engaged in completely inappropriate relationships with those that they were spying on. Did you ever witness HN118
01:55:16 HN118 engage in any form of romantic relationship or any such behavior? No, I didn't.
01:55:26 As far as you were aware, did he present to you as someone who was single during the time that you knew him? Yes, he he
01:55:38 the time that you knew him? Yes, he he described himself as single for sure.
01:55:42 Now, you would have seen that the inquiry has heard evidence from other undercover officers where they have said, "When you are infiltrating groups
01:55:53 infiltrating groups that
01:55:54 that you might
01:55:56 you might arouse suspicion amongst those upon whom you are spying if you were single and not in a relationship." And so, you've heard a number of uh UCOs explain, "Well, the fact you you
01:56:08 UCOs explain, "Well, the fact you you you needed to do that otherwise you might
01:56:12 might um arouse suspicion." Were you ever suspicious of HN118 because he presented as a single man? Not for a moment, no.
01:56:33 I'd like to move to a separate topic.
01:56:37 Racism. Now,
01:56:40 Now, in 118's own witness statement, he stated, "I did not witness any racism or sexism
01:56:49 sexism during my service with the SDS." Okay?
01:56:54 Okay? Now, I wonder [snorts] if we could just turn up your statement again. It's page 33.
01:57:09 Now, 118 says he didn't witness any racism or sexist during his service with the SDS. And then if we look at the bottom row, the right-hand column,
01:57:21 bottom row, the right-hand column, you state it is doubtful that Wellings would have noticed much racism as he inadvertently displayed it himself,
01:57:30 himself, but in a less brutal way than he might have. I just want to look at the words that you have set out there. So, in what way
01:57:45 did HM 118 inadvertently display racism?
01:57:53 Perhaps I'm being a bit generous to him on that wording, but um a couple of incidents I I can recall immediately where there was a there was a a meeting,
01:58:04 there was a there was a a meeting, I think at the uh London School of Economics, where I had a few people on the platform. Um And his report on me was I turned up the I turned up at that meeting quite annoyed because I'd been followed by
01:58:16 annoyed because I'd been followed by uniform police officers all day that day.
01:58:19 day. Uh I think it was on the eve of the uh the huge um 15th of February 2003 anti-war march. Um
01:58:27 Um one of the speakers on the platform that that evening was a member of the MST, the Movimento Sem Terra, which was the Brazilian Landless People's Movement. Uh
01:58:39 Brazilian Landless People's Movement. Uh an organization we had quite good links with and uh we we featured their speakers on more than one occasion. Um
01:58:46 Um he he's
01:58:48 he he's There was some story about me wanting to tell everyone at the meeting to join the occupation that was going on in that university that evening. Cuz I can't remember even planning to do that, but um
01:58:59 um he then said, "I
01:59:02 "I I um
01:59:03 I um I didn't ask people to join the uh the the um
01:59:08 the um the uh occupation because um
01:59:12 um the speaker from the Colombian landless movement uh which was a Brazilian not a not not a not a um a Colombian produced a large bag of
01:59:24 Colombian produced a large bag of cocaine um which
01:59:28 which uh it's just beyond I mean that is very lazy racial stereotyping, I think but he he he confuses people from Latin America and from different countries and
01:59:39 and from different countries and suggests that because they come from Colombia they've got they've got a a large
01:59:44 large uh bag of cocaine on them which would be the
01:59:47 the most insane thing to do to come to this country as an activist from Colombia and bring some coke with you. Um so I think that was a that was a very very lazy racial stereotyping. Um Can you
02:00:00 lazy racial stereotyping. Um Can you think of another example that's that's similar to that that falls into that sort of category? I I can think of one. I've got a understanding we might get onto it later
02:00:11 understanding we might get onto it later when there was a an activist we refer to as MT um
02:00:16 as MT um was We will come to MT so we'll we can address it then. I Yeah, there's um there's other things there was um there was a a couple of um
02:00:27 there was um there was a a couple of um of Muslim activists on the GR steering committee. I think there was three at one point. Um and they were reported as you know kind of wanting to go to Baghdad and do for
02:00:38 of wanting to go to Baghdad and do for nefarious activities and what have you in one of his reports. Um certainly yeah, there was there was
02:00:48 there was a racist undertone to a lot of some of his reporting which which kind of took up his stereotypes and and imposed them onto onto onto different people. So
02:00:59 different people. So yeah, I mean I noticed that more in the reporting than I did at the time. But certainly I think some of his reporting has got quite worrying racist
02:01:11 reporting has got quite worrying racist overtones to it. I'm going to ask about a specific report. It's your tab B186. It's NPS 0029562, please.
02:01:24 So what we have here is a a series of intelligence reports. I'm going to ask you in fact if we could turn to the second page.
02:01:37 It's the So can you see the
02:01:44 second report there and we can see in bold it's intelligence stop the war visit of US President George Bush. But what I want to ask you about is if we look at the
02:01:56 to ask you about is if we look at the second
02:01:58 second paragraph. The main national demonstrations due to take place on Thursday the 20th of November at 2:00 p.m. and then this. The conversation in recent days amongst
02:02:09 The conversation in recent days amongst London-based anti-capitalist activists and stop the war coalition members has been peppered with references to the revelations in the BBC's The Secret
02:02:20 revelations in the BBC's The Secret Policeman television program. The racism exposed in the program has genuinely shocked and outraged many London activists. And although many of them would have already been of the
02:02:32 them would have already been of the opinion that the police were racist, it is another thing entirely to see it portrayed in such a graphic and chilling way.
02:02:42 way. In relation to this particular television program, did you ever discuss this with
02:02:51 this with HM118? Did it ever arise in conversations where you and 118 were in the group that you recall? I think it undoubtedly we had
02:03:02 I think it undoubtedly we had discussions about that. Whether I spoke to Wellings directly, I cannot remember. It would have been one of the one of the issues that come up on at the
02:03:14 one of the issues that come up on at the pub after a meeting, I'm sure. Um especially something as shocking as that program. So, um I think um yeah, it could well have happened, but I can't remember it specifically involving
02:03:26 can't remember it specifically involving 118. And not this particular program in particular, but generally, what what was racism in the police force a topic of conversation outside the particular
02:03:38 conversation outside the particular reference to the program? Or or not that you recall? I think it it would have been for sure. I mean, my experience in Southeast London, remember that was where
02:03:49 where Stephen Lawrence was killed. It was where we had many protests against the British National Party headquarters and all the rest of it. So, that had been a very very much a part of my political DNA from that from those moments on. So,
02:04:02 DNA from that from those moments on. So, I think um those my my experience in seeing that kind of stuff happening around me when I lived in Plumstead was um was yeah, very much a case of that would
02:04:13 was yeah, very much a case of that would be that would be discussed. But I can't remember he his reactions to stuff specifically. I think he he would have concurred. But um I don't think he um he he really
02:04:26 But um I don't think he um he he really I mean, that was the case in many political discussions. He would
02:04:32 He would say a few, you know, encouraging or agreeing noises, but he he rarely really participated in political discussions because I I thought he was completely out of his depth.
02:04:43 out of his depth. He didn't He didn't really understand that much. He He just played it safe and kept it quiet, really.
02:04:49 really. You say played it safe, kept it quiet. Leaving aside those instances that you referred to earlier when I was asking about anything that he did that could have amounted to being an agent
02:05:00 have amounted to being an agent provocateur. If someone were to suggest that in infiltrating globalist resistance that
02:05:11 that generally speaking HM 118 uh
02:05:16 118 uh did not
02:05:17 did not uh try to rock the boat. He didn't do anything
02:05:21 anything inappropriate that he
02:05:25 he really just reported back what information uh came uh his way without disrupting the group. W- What would your reaction be to someone who put that forward as a
02:05:38 someone who put that forward as a proposition that in effect his uh infiltrating globalist resistance was done i- in a way that minimized any negative impact on those in the group.
02:05:52 I have a couple of things to say to that. Firstly, um that's not what happened though, was it? H- He He took every opportunity to embellish and exaggerate and uh and and
02:06:03 embellish and exaggerate and uh and and make his stories more exciting, I think, for the people that were reading them. So, um he he constantly um inflated his role, inflated his his
02:06:14 um inflated his role, inflated his his standing in the organization, but he also um you know, kind of suggested we were much more violent or radical or or or confrontational than we actually were.
02:06:26 confrontational than we actually were. And uh went went about trying to paint a very m- much more sinister or much more dangerous picture of us than that than actually was the case. I mean,
02:06:38 that than actually was the case. I mean, we were a danger to the powers that be cuz we could put people on the streets, not because we were trying to um trying to uh start fights with the police or anything. That
02:06:49 fights with the police or anything. That wasn't That wasn't on our on our radar. We didn't need to do that. We were quite a successful organization at mobilizing, bringing people there, and getting our message out. That was our
02:07:00 getting our message out. That was our main That was our main aim, so we we used the tools we had at our disposal. But, that was never That was never, you know, kind of threatening public order and what have you. It was mostly
02:07:11 and what have you. It was mostly numbers,
02:07:12 numbers, spectacle, jokes, and the humor, and uh and and putting that across. And we were we were very good We were quite effective at getting our points of view across in those ways. So, I don't know whether now
02:07:24 those ways. So, I don't know whether now is a convenient moment for a mid-morning break. Um if [clears throat] it is uh from your point of view, then it's certainly is from the point of view of the transcribers. We'll break for 1/4 of an hour as usual.
02:07:35 an hour as usual. We always have a 1/4 of an hour break in the mid-morning session for the I'm up for that. for your benefit as well as the transcribers. Yeah.
02:10:24 Mhm.
02:12:19 Mhm.
02:14:14 Mhm.
02:16:09 Mhm.
02:18:04 Mhm.
02:21:54 Mhm.
02:23:28 [snorts]
02:23:38 Mr. Taub, how well did you know the core participant that we are referring to as MT.
02:23:49 MT. Pretty well. We played cricket together. Um we uh
02:23:53 Um we uh He's been around my house before. Yeah, yeah, we're good friends. I mean, I don't see much of him nowadays, though. He's mostly overseas. I'm going to ask if one of H118's
02:24:05 I'm going to ask if one of H118's reports could please be put up on screen. So, this is your tab B152. It's MPS0018972,
02:24:15 please.
02:24:21 And if you could turn to page four, please.
02:24:26 So, the the dates that the inquiry has put on
02:24:30 put on this report is the 11th of May 2003. So,
02:24:35 So, if you see in the middle of the page, intelligence globalize resistance MT. MT
02:24:42 MT is a student at London University. He is politically radical with a particular sympathy for the plight of the plat-
02:24:53 sympathy for the plight of the plat- Palestinian people. Now, I'm not asking you to identify who MT is, but as far as that goes, from what
02:25:05 is, but as far as that goes, from what we have there, is that accurate that he was, at the time, so 2003, a student at a London University? He was a student there, yeah. I I would take exception to the politically radical
02:25:17 exception to the politically radical thing. He was a a lot milder than I was.
02:25:23 So, if MT was politically radical, he was
02:25:29 he was milder than you were. Wou- wou- would you describe him as politically radical? No. Uh he was
02:25:38 he was He was much more [clears throat]
02:25:41 I mean, I liked him as a person a lot. I mean, like you know, we got on really well and we had a lot of things in common. Um but, his politics were much more reformist, uh a lot more, you know, kind
02:25:54 reformist, uh a lot more, you know, kind of like
02:25:55 of like I think he he tended to seek answers through the system that as it as it exists, probably legally or um you know, through through elections and what
02:26:06 know, through through elections and what have you. He was much more interested in that side of things than I was. Was HN118
02:26:12 Was HN118 being accurate when he described MT in this intelligence report as having a particular sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, as far as you were aware?
02:26:24 people, as far as you were aware? Um
02:26:28 to me, he was I mean, like he got very involved in the movement against the Iraq war.
02:26:34 Iraq war. Um
02:26:35 Um That was That was That was his particular sympathy sympathy as I as I could tell. He was uh you know, he was very much part of the Stop the War Coalition. He you know, he he he was anti-war. Um
02:26:49 you know, he he he was anti-war. Um I I don't think he was particularly an anti-capitalist as such. I wanted him to become one. Uh That's why I tried to get him involved in Globalize Resistance. But I mean, like he was um he was more moderate than than it is
02:27:01 he was more moderate than than it is described here. What about in particular, you've described his attitude towards the Iraq war. But here, uh 118 is describing as having
02:27:12 uh 118 is describing as having particular sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people. Is that accurate as far as He definitely He definitely had sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian
02:27:23 for the plight of the Palestinian people. That was without question. That was correct. Um
02:27:27 Um but I don't think it was his I mean, you know, that that was a It was still is a very um a very key cause for for for for for people even vaguely on the left. I mean like
02:27:39 even vaguely on the left. I mean like you know, he certainly he was he was [clears throat] he had sympathy for that plight for sure. I don't know if it's particular. It's just one of the things he he was concerned about. But the the next
02:27:50 concerned about. But the the next sentence he is an anti-capitalist. You you take issue with No, wrong. Uh becoming increasingly involved in globalized resistance. This is again in May 2003. Yeah, I was trying to pull him
02:28:04 May 2003. Yeah, I was trying to pull him in really. Uh I mean I I think I alluded to it earlier this morning where when you ask questions of Catholicism that won't won't I can't deliver, you become you you question more. So,
02:28:17 become you you question more. So, I think it was part of the part of the way we carried on was to get people to place demands and and ask things of capitalism which it won't deliver and then you become more anti-capitalist. I think it kind of
02:28:28 anti-capitalist. I think it kind of failed with MT, um but uh yeah, he remained a good friend. Um I I
02:28:35 I I think it's quite um quite a feature of uh
02:28:39 uh of of uh 118's uh reporting is, you know, they people in different camps, they can't talk to each other. I can't talk to the autonomous, they can't talk to and uh it it isn't quite like that.
02:28:50 to and uh it it isn't quite like that. Um so, yeah, ba- basically he was becoming he was I would have put it he is be- becoming pulled into globalized resistance by Guy Taylor to be honest with you. And the
02:29:01 Taylor to be honest with you. And the report goes on by saying that MT recently booked the JCR at the London University allowing GR activists to hold a banner and props making session prior
02:29:12 a banner and props making session prior to May Day. I- Is that something that you recall? Again, what I'm asking you this in terms of accuracy. So, we're looking at one of 118's reports. And what I would like to
02:29:25 118's reports. And what I would like to uh get from you essentially is how accurate 118 was in this report when he describes MT. Yeah.
02:29:33 Yeah. I don't think he booked the room. He didn't have to book the room in those days. You just had to turn up and use the space, really. I mean, uh there's quite a few universities, especially in the Bloomsbury area, where you could
02:29:45 you could it there was no ID checks or anything like on the doors as there is now. Uh you could turn up and you could use the space. It was it was um you know, we we had a number of students from that
02:29:56 we had a number of students from that university involved in at the time, and for us to to you know, to have We we we wouldn't usually use a space without at least a couple of students from that university
02:30:08 couple of students from that university involved in what we were doing, cuz that would be a bit rude. But, I mean, like it was it wasn't rare for us to use space like that. I don't think anyone booked it. It wasn't necessary. Is the next sentence fair? He is a relatively
02:30:21 next sentence fair? He is a relatively coherent speaker and has conducted several TV interviews in recent weeks, both about May Day and the upcoming G8 protests in Evian. Um
02:30:32 Um he is a very coherent speaker, I would say. Um not relatively. Um he's conducted I I did I never saw him on the telly, but then again, I didn't have time to watch telly in those days.
02:30:45 time to watch telly in those days. Um
02:30:46 Um I'd be surprised if he spoke about May Day and the Evian G8 protest. He was mostly talking about anti-war stuff at the time. So, I'll be I'll be quite surprised if he if he did those
02:30:58 surprised if he if he did those interviews, to be honest with you. Can you help us with what is set out in the next paragraph? Cuz 118
02:31:04 Cuz 118 has stated in this intelligence report, referring to MT, he is aware of the possibility of the state being interested in individuals such as he.
02:31:17 interested in individuals such as he. And he habitually gives his address as We've put a privacy redaction box over that. It is believed that this is the correspondence address for the university Student Union rather than his
02:31:29 university Student Union rather than his residence.
02:31:33 Were you surprised or unsurprised to read that description of MT and his awareness of the state being interested in individuals such as he?
02:31:45 interested in individuals such as he? Um
02:31:47 Um [clears throat] I was
02:31:49 I was not particularly surprised. I I think I mean
02:31:53 mean MT
02:31:55 MT was particularly interested in human rights and hence his concern for the Palestinian people I I I I I reckon. Um
02:32:05 Um And he would I think he would have been quite careful about his personal details getting shared and plastered around Scotland Yard and what have you. Not because he had anything to worry about cuz he'd done anything wrong, but because that's just an infringement of
02:32:17 because that's just an infringement of his human rights or his civil liberties. So, um I think I'm not that surprised at that to be honest with you. No. I wonder if we could turn to page eight
02:32:28 I wonder if we could turn to page eight in the document that we have here, please.
02:32:37 So, this is in relation to election to the Globalize Resistance Steering
02:32:45 Steering Group.
02:32:46 Group. Uh and you can see the slates you can see at the top. This slate was proposed by privacy. No objections uh were launched and the group were reelected unanimously. Uh and then it goes on uh to state the
02:32:58 Uh and then it goes on uh to state the following individuals were then asked to step forward in turn to the microphone and propose themselves by explaining briefly about their involvement with GR and why they should be elected. Each one
02:33:10 and why they should be elected. Each one met no objection and was elected unopposed by conference. And we can see the names are set out uh there. And the names include Simon Wellings, so HM118's uh codename,
02:33:24 Simon Wellings, so HM118's uh codename, but also MT. So, we can see here they were elected to the GR steering group. Is that right? Yes. Um
02:33:36 Yes. Um quite surprised not to see my name on there. I think I was on the steering committee that year. Um Well, unless it's been redacted. Well, if we if we go to the page before
02:33:47 Uh yes, towards the bottom, please. [clears throat] All right. So,
02:33:52 So, Oh, oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Um Yeah, so the following individuals stood uh a block taken from last year's committee, that is they were current steering committee members who wished to remain. So, uh
02:34:04 remain. So, uh there you are, Chris Knighton, Noel Douglas, and and others Yeah, yeah. staying on the steering committee, and then MT and HM118 over the page uh being
02:34:15 then MT and HM118 over the page uh being elected to the committee. Now, we can see the number of names there. Uh Yeah. So, a relatively small group of people.
02:34:24 people. Yeah.
02:34:26 Yeah. The
02:34:28 The You have described MT as a good friend of yours, played cricket together. What about 118's interaction with MT? We can see
02:34:39 can see here [clears throat] they're both elected onto the steering committee at the same time. What did you see of them together? How did they interact? How close were
02:34:51 How did they interact? How close were they? I don't recall seeing them together. To be honest with you, at the time I would have thought it unlikely. I think there was an intellectual mismatch there of gargantuan proportions. Um What
02:35:03 there of gargantuan proportions. Um What do you mean by that? MT was very bright bloke, and he he you know, he he wrote brilliantly, he spoke brilliantly. And I think he had a he had he had a real intellectual depth to him. Um Simon
02:35:15 real intellectual depth to him. Um Simon Wellings uh did not.
02:35:19 How often would they interact
02:35:24 interact purely from the basis of meetings with the steering committee. So, how often would
02:35:31 would would they have been physically in a room together discussing the topics? steering committee happened once a month.
02:35:38 month. Um,
02:35:39 Um, and then there would be working groups um, to spring off that. So, if someone came committee said, "Right, I want to organize a protest I don't know on I want to organize an action against the
02:35:51 want to organize an action against the arms fair or I want I want to be involved in this that or the other. We'd say, "Okay, if you want that, organize us a working group." And you'd say, "Right, I'm going
02:36:03 group." And you'd say, "Right, I'm going to working group meeting it's going to be happening 7:00 on Thursday evening at this venue." And you would hope that enough people would come along to help you organize something. And that was that was the
02:36:14 something. And that was that was the democracy of it. You you had to suggest something and and pull enough people with you to actually get stuff going. So,
02:36:22 So, if you if you were successful in that, you had a working group. So, you could in theory
02:36:29 in theory be meeting Well, I was involved in most working groups, not all of them. And I I went I was in meetings probably once or twice a week. Um,
02:36:40 Um, plus the steering committee, plus public meetings and stuff like that. I was I was
02:36:45 was Would the steering committee members also be on the same email group? Would there be Yes, there was an email group for the steering committee. But I don't I I wasn't aware of
02:36:56 But I don't I I wasn't aware of of
02:36:57 of 118 and MT um, having a particular friendship or ex- you know, sort of communication above and beyond the uh the uh the call of of steering committee
02:37:10 the uh the call of of steering committee meetings. Not aware of a particular friendship between them, but from what you saw
02:37:16 you saw of them and the nature of the group, would they have known each other? Only only very vaguely, I think. I mean,
02:37:28 Only only very vaguely, I think. I mean, MT didn't he didn't really come he didn't really do much apart from come to steering committee meetings. He didn't even come to all of them, to be honest with you. Um so basically I I
02:37:40 so basically I I I'd be surprised if they knew each other any any any further than sitting in the same meeting once a once a month with each other.
02:37:50 The report that we were looking at earlier where went through with you that he is a student at the London University, sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, appearance on television,
02:38:01 television, that that sort of information, are you able to help us with how HM118 would have gleaned that sort of information about MT? Is this the sort of thing that
02:38:12 about MT? Is this the sort of thing that would have been discussed as a matter of course in during meetings?
02:38:19 meetings? I would imagine I would I would imagine there would be uh
02:38:23 uh yeah.
02:38:24 yeah. Saying yeah, we want this bloke involved. He's a he's a student at X University or whatever and um yeah, I I I I I I those those details about saying which
02:38:35 those those details about saying which are
02:38:35 are someone which are pretty top level um as in you know, quite obvious things. Uh I think that would that that kind of information would be quite quite openly
02:38:48 information would be quite quite openly shared. I mean, there might be a discussion saying, "Oh, we need leaflets handed out there. Oh, MT can do it. He's at that university." or something along those lines. So, I don't think it's it's uh
02:38:59 uh it didn't it wouldn't have taken uh 118 much digging to find out those details about him. That that would be quite
02:39:06 quite quite easy to You You described earlier that after it was not uncommon after meetings going to the pub and that HM118
02:39:17 the pub and that HM118 would go to the pub as well. Well, he had to to get Andrew points in, wouldn't he? What about MT? Did MT join you and HM118
02:39:28 What about MT? Did MT join you and HM118 at the pub? MT didn't drink. Um
02:39:32 Um and I think at the time he lived quite a way out in London. I can't be certain of that.
02:39:40 that. I think he did come to the pub occasionally, but not on not on the uh not on the level of anyone else. So, he he was a he was a less regular attendee at our public house meetings. All right.
02:39:53 at our public house meetings. All right. I'm going to ask if we could please turn to another of 118's reports. Sir, it's it's your tab B167. It is NPS
02:40:03 It is NPS 002 7874,
02:40:06 002 7874, please.
02:40:17 Now,
02:40:20 you have, as with the other documents that we've brought up on screen, seen seen this report before, haven't you? I have, yes. Now, what I'm going to do is I'm just going to go through it and then I'm going to ask you some specific questions
02:40:31 going to ask you some specific questions about it. So, first the date. We can see 15th, 16th of July, 2003. And MT
02:40:40 And MT talked out of extreme action by Guy Taylor.
02:40:45 Taylor. MT, the Globalise Resistance GR activist, intended to cause embarrassment embarrassment to the visiting Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel
02:40:56 visiting Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon,
02:40:57 Sharon, and his police protection during his visit to the UK. His plan involved dressing up as a suicide bomber and attempting to infiltrate Mr.
02:41:10 and attempting to infiltrate Mr. Sharon's personal security cordon. MT seemed determined to carry out this stunt despite the obvious dangers.
02:41:21 stunt despite the obvious dangers. However, MT was talked out of doing it after having a long conversation with Guy Taylor, the de facto head of GR. Taylor did not do this on his own. He
02:41:34 Taylor did not do this on his own. He was helped by another member of GR, NFD, trusted by Taylor, and it was their combined efforts that eventually persuaded MT not to go ahead with his
02:41:48 persuaded MT not to go ahead with his planned
02:41:50 planned stunt. Okay? Now, in relation to this particular uh
02:41:58 uh planned action to dress up as a suicide bomber. Uh Do Do you remember uh becoming aware of such a plan
02:42:13 uh becoming aware of such a plan at any point? Yeah, I remember that conversation. Uh the one he uh the long conversation with Guy Taylor. They
02:42:24 I think I think it's worth saying that my impression is that 118 [clears throat] read our manual and confused it with a with with a with a tradecraft manual. Um
02:42:37 with with a with a tradecraft manual. Um he This This is absolutely not true in the case that it was This happened, but it wasn't MT. It was a different person entirely. Now,
02:42:49 It was a different person entirely. Now, I'm not going to ask you to say out loud who that person is, but I am going to ask you, please,
02:43:00 is, but I am going to ask you, please, if you could write down the name on a piece of paper.
02:43:14 Can I be assured that it won't go any further um because the person who it is um is very ill and they've got no chance of um defending themselves. So, I I I I'll
02:43:26 defending themselves. So, I I I I'll give you this piece of paper if it doesn't go any further than yourself and It It Excuse me, please. Um Sorry.
02:43:33 Sorry. It It uh is likely to be necessary to show this to uh
02:43:39 uh HM118.
02:43:40 HM118. Well, he knows who it was anyway, so yeah. Uh Well, quite. Um but I cannot think uh
02:43:46 think uh at the moment of of the need to share it to anybody else. Could uh um Does that concur with your view, Mr. Bramble? Sir, yes. Yes. Thank you, sir. And it will be kept
02:43:56 kept secret from all but him and of course the members of the inquiry team. Sure. That was That reassures me. Thank you. Thank you.
02:44:07 Thank you.
02:44:29 In relation to the identity of the individual,
02:44:36 knowing what you do about the interaction between
02:44:42 between uh HM118
02:44:45 uh HM118 and MT,
02:44:47 and MT, are you able to assist
02:44:51 to assist with why and of course we will ask H and 118.
02:44:56 118. The name that you wrote on the piece of paper is not the name that appears in the report. That's correct, yeah. Very different people.
02:45:06 people. Now, I'm not going to ask you to provide the name
02:45:11 the name but in terms of this skin color of the person whose name you wrote down, could could you help us with that? Um
02:45:19 Um the person whose name I wrote down is as white as you or I.
02:45:25 Or me. To what extent did
02:45:31 did the person whose name you wrote down and MT
02:45:34 MT look alike? Would did they look similar? No, they didn't look at all alike. Um it was an age difference, a race difference, a class difference, everything. I mean like there's no way
02:45:46 everything. I mean like there's no way you can get those two mixed up. Not at all.
02:46:00 I want to move from the topic of the identity of the person to the description of the proposed action. Okay?
02:46:10 Okay? So, it says that the plan was to cause embarrassment to the visiting Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, and his protection police protection during
02:46:22 his protection police protection during his visit to the UK. Now, just in that broad sense, it was that at least accurate that there was
02:46:30 was by the person whose name you wrote down an intention to cause embarrassment to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Um
02:46:40 Um I'm I'm willing to accept that's that's what he wanted. I mean like the chances of embarrassing Ariel Sharon through this stunt were minimal. Um But then
02:46:51 But then the person whose name I wrote down, should we think of another name for him? Um but uh I basically uh he was renowned for coming up with crazy ideas. So um
02:47:01 So um it didn't surprise me when he came up with this idea, but I I didn't want him to do it.
02:47:05 to do it. For this for these purposes, we refer to that person as X. X. Would you agree that X came up with a plan to dress up as a suicide bomber?
02:47:16 as a suicide bomber? X did, yeah.
02:47:21 And was part of X's plan to attempt to infiltrate Ariel Sharon's personal security cordon? I'm not sure if he envisioned himself getting that far. Um
02:47:34 envisioned himself getting that far. Um I don't know. Um I think he I think he he wanted to target Ariel Sharon. Um whether he thought he could get that close to him, I don't know, but um yeah, that was that was the intent overall.
02:47:48 that was that was the intent overall. Was it correct that X was talked out of doing this? Yes. What were the circumstances in which he was talked out of doing it? Well, unsurprisingly, it was round a table in a pub and uh
02:48:01 table in a pub and uh he he he came very enthusiastically. There was a number of people around the table. Um myself, there was uh I don't know Noel Douglas who'll be giving evidence day after tomorrow. Um
02:48:13 giving evidence day after tomorrow. Um he was there as well. Um And he came up very excited with this plan to uh to dress up as a suicide bomber and we just basically had to deflate him because it was a really stupid idea.
02:48:25 was a really stupid idea. You,
02:48:26 You, Noel Douglas, and X, who else was I I think 118 was there. Um Didn't play much of a role in the conversation, though, as per usual.
02:48:40 So you, X, Noel Douglas, 118. Yeah. Was there anyone else? There might have been. There might have been more people. I can't remember. But, um that was I think that was probably one end of the
02:48:51 I think that was probably one end of the table which had the conversation. So,
02:48:55 So, who persuaded him not to go ahead? Me.
02:49:01 Did anyone else contribute to dissuading him? I think Noel Noel said a bit and I think 118 might have done, but it was no more than a sentence or two. I mean, I
02:49:12 more than a sentence or two. I mean, I don't think um X particularly knew um [clears throat] 118. It's getting confusing, isn't it? But, um don't know if X X particularly knew 118 and I don't think he his words
02:49:24 knew 118 and I don't think he his words would have had much sway with him. Um it was the case that I had a very good relationship with X um and I did have his respect and and and, you
02:49:35 I did have his respect and and and, you know, that that that was evident from loads of conversations we had. So, uh I thought yeah, it was probably best that I talk him down from this, which I did.
02:49:45 did. Do you know how far developed X's plan had had reached? Um
02:49:53 Um they were
02:49:54 they were No, they were they weren't they weren't developed. They were just a mad idea he came up with. Was the idea suggested to you in that conversation in the pub or had
02:50:05 in that conversation in the pub or had it been suggested at a point earlier in time? I'm pretty certain it was just in that pub.
02:50:11 that pub. I mean, I it was it was one of those ideas you think, "Oh, no, he's going to get shot. That'd be a real shame." Um so, we we talked him down from it. I mean, it was
02:50:22 Yeah, it was it such a crazy idea that uh you know, I was always in favor of people coming up with mad ideas because I thought sometimes they can turn into something good, but this one wasn't going to do that. So, um
02:50:33 that. So, um we basically I I just said, "Look, you can't do this. You might get shot. You might, you know, it'll it'll be really bad for our organization. It would you know, it'd just reflect badly on everyone. So, please don't do it." And it took a
02:50:44 please don't do it." And it took a while, and I'm sure it happened with the conversation veering off in various directions and coming back to the crux of the matter again, but we [snorts] you know, I think the one
02:50:55 know, I think the one the one
02:50:56 the one accurate bit in this report is having a long conversation, but most conversations with X were quite long. And um and basically, yeah, we
02:51:05 we I I talked him down from it. I can't I can't put it in any other way, really.
02:51:11 What was the in talking him down, what what was your main arguments that to X when you were trying to dissuade him from doing this? I think when it comes to dissuading
02:51:22 I think when it comes to dissuading someone from something of such magnanimous idiocy, um you throw everything you have at it, really. So, it was about his safety, about reputational damage to the
02:51:34 about reputational damage to the organization, about is it going to work? Is it
02:51:39 Is it And uh you know, is it possible to actually pull off? All these different things. I put every argument I could into it because I wanted him to stop.
02:51:59 When you had this discussion dissuading X from going through this with this plan, do do you know where MT was?
02:52:11 Uh I'm pretty sure he wasn't there. I'm pretty certain he was not in the pub.
02:52:18 pub. Um
02:52:21 No, I don't know where he was at that point. I am asking you questions about uh things that happened some time ago. Is it possible that he could have been
02:52:32 it possible that he could have been empty? Could have also been involved in that conversation? I am 95% sure he was not involved in that conversation.
02:52:48 You have described being uh quite close to X. Yes.
02:52:57 Knowing him in that position being quite close to him, um is he the type of person that would have gone through
02:53:08 gone through uh with this proposed uh stunt if you hadn't uh
02:53:13 hadn't uh spent
02:53:14 spent uh
02:53:15 uh that time talking him out of it? Unfortunately, he could have done.
02:53:25 I'm going to ask if you could have a look at another document. It's so at your tab B277. It's MPS0527121.
02:53:46 If you can turn to the next page, please.
02:53:50 please. [snorts]
02:53:51 [snorts] All right. Now,
02:53:54 Now, Mr. Taylor, I know you've seen this document before as well. And just to put it in context, so we know that the SDS was shut down at the end of 2007 right
02:54:08 was shut down at the end of 2007 right at the beginning of 2008. So, this is right at the end of the SDS. And this is a document that was
02:54:17 was drafted by HN118. And you can see SDS note September 2007, examples of the squad providing value
02:54:28 examples of the squad providing value for money, okay? So, this is right at the end of the SDS, 118, providing a document to show examples
02:54:39 to show examples of the SDS providing value for money. Uh and you can see it states, "As requested, this short note seeks to provide some examples of SDS intelligence providing a cost benefit to
02:54:52 intelligence providing a cost benefit to the service. As such, it ignores the obvious additional benefits of being in receipt of the intelligence such as the ability to head off public order situations, the saving of embarrassment
02:55:03 situations, the saving of embarrassment to UK PLC, and in some cases it lives potentially being saved. And the first example that 118 gives it it is this,
02:55:14 example that 118 gives it it is this, and I just want to go through it with you under the heading Ariel Sharon.
02:55:21 He states, "In July 2003, the Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, visited London.
02:55:29 London. At the time, MT, a young Arab man with extreme left-wing political views, was a prominent member of the anti-capitalist group Globalise Resistance. His activism
02:55:43 group Globalise Resistance. His activism centered around the plight of the Palestinian people. Now, just to uh
02:55:50 uh look at what is set out there, [snorts]
02:55:54 [snorts] the description of uh an an Arab man, does that apply to X or MT? It doesn't refer refer to either of
02:56:05 It doesn't refer refer to either of them. Um X was
02:56:08 was a white British person. MT
02:56:12 MT is an Asian person. I think
02:56:16 I think of Pakistani descent. So,
02:56:20 So, no, it doesn't Arab doesn't come into the picture at all. All right. Now, next paragraph. SDS reporting revealed that he planned to protest Sharon's visit by dressing as a
02:56:31 protest Sharon's visit by dressing as a martyr bomber and confronting Sharon and his protection team as they left his hotel. And then this. MT constructed a highly realistic dummy
02:56:44 MT constructed a highly realistic dummy bomb vest comprising red-colored vertical tubes affixed to a green canvas vest with electrical cabling cabling and a pull lanyard. Now, just pausing there,
02:56:58 lanyard. Now, just pausing there, did you ever see this dummy bomb vest? No.
02:57:04 No. And neither did he cuz it never existed.
02:57:12 I could could I just just take you through a couple of things in in the meantime because this this incident is reported a few times by 118 to his superiors and it's
02:57:24 times by 118 to his superiors and it's been in the uh in the um
02:57:27 in the um documents disclosed to me um and yeah, the the the 15th of July one we've been we've been through. And on the 7th of September 2003,
02:57:38 the 7th of September 2003, um
02:57:39 um I got the number is uh MPS 0526839. He said that um he was planning to dress up as a suicide
02:57:50 he was planning to dress up as a suicide bomber with fake explosives was persuaded by GD which was um 118's code name and Guy Taylor against confronting PM Sharon
02:58:01 Taylor against confronting PM Sharon from Israel during a visit to Downing Street. So, between July and September that year, it's gone from I persuade I dissuaded him from doing it to he did it with my help. The next one which is in in October
02:58:14 The next one which is in in October 2003,
02:58:16 2003, as it was, Guy Taylor took a similarly dim view of this planned stunt, al- albeit for slightly different reasons from from 118, more concerned with the security and
02:58:27 more concerned with the security and credibility GR, and he and I persuaded dissuaded the young activist from executing his plan. And then to this one where
02:58:36 where when you when you look at the final paragraph on this, he says "The officer [clears throat] was then one of two people picked by that individual, I think he means me, into talking empty out of carrying the
02:58:47 talking empty out of carrying the thing." So, it
02:58:49 it Every time he retells this story, my contribution to the dissuasion gets less, his gets inflated, and and I I can't wait to see the next installment.
02:59:00 can't wait to see the next installment. He probably gets made a freeman of Tel Aviv and thanks personally by by Ariel Sharon at the end of it. It's It's It's complete fantasy the way he completely
02:59:11 complete fantasy the way he completely ups ups it every time he he he repeats his story. It gets more and more he's the hero, he did this, and less further and further from the actual truth of what happened. Now, the fact is that,
02:59:23 what happened. Now, the fact is that, you know, I mean, like he
02:59:26 he If there was a suicide bomber's vest, which appeared at any point in the story, he would have reported that in every telling, but he doesn't. He only does it cuz he's got this sexed-up
02:59:37 does it cuz he's got this sexed-up version for the to try and justify the continuation of the SDS. And he hasn't actually, you know, it's it's an invention because if he had been, to be honest with you, I don't think he would
02:59:48 honest with you, I don't think he would have he would have destroyed the vest. He would have taken a photograph of it at least. It would have probably been taken back to the SDS safe house and paraded as some form of trophy. But, he's he's This is evidently complete and
03:00:02 he's he's This is evidently complete and utter fantasy, and I can't put it any other stronger way. He
03:00:07 He He He only mentions this vest once in the whole of his reporting, and he's referred to this incident at least five times. And to be honest with you, I can't I I only got this this document,
03:00:19 can't I I only got this this document, the one we're looking at on the screen at the moment, a week ago, and I was absolutely aghast. I had to phone my solicitor and rant at him for hours on end because it was so so far It's It's completely fantasy
03:00:31 so far It's It's completely fantasy stuff. It doesn't It It was absolutely not the case. It didn't happen, and he's lying.
03:00:37 lying. Sorry.
03:00:38 Sorry. Your question. Did X ever describe the dummy bomb vest? No, he didn't.
03:00:50 This paragraph goes on. His plan was to wear this under a long raincoat, leap over the crowd control barriers, and run towards Sharon, whipping open
03:01:02 and run towards Sharon, whipping open his coat to reveal the prop. Was that ever discussed
03:01:09 discussed by
03:01:10 by X in the pub meeting, or indeed any other meeting? Not in the pub meeting. I mean, even X and his at time minimal brain did not um did not come out with
03:01:22 brain did not um did not come out with that plan. He did not He didn't say he was going to jump over this crowd control barriers. He knows that you I mean, there was another instance with crowd control barriers in Whitehall where
03:01:32 where it ended up in my arrest that um you don't do that and get close to the visiting prime minister of Israel. I mean, like even he realized that wasn't going to happen like that. This is just
03:01:43 going to happen like that. This is just madness. So, it continues with this detail. If possible, he hoped to physically embrace Sharon to provide the best possible image for the media who
03:01:54 best possible image for the media who were following the visit closely. That detail about hoping to physically embrace
03:02:01 embrace uh Ariel Sharon, is that something that X mentioned at least.
03:02:08 least. No. No, no. that's
03:02:11 that's more of the same, isn't it? I mean, like it's just
03:02:15 it's just You know that can't happen. That's just stupid, isn't it? The last sentence in this paragraph is this, "MT had been encouraged by the successful incursion into Prince
03:02:27 successful incursion into Prince William's
03:02:29 William's 21st birthday party at Windsor Castle by the comedian Aaron Barschak." Now, in relation to that,
03:02:40 in relation to that, this is
03:02:42 this is 21st of June, 2003. So, this is the instance at Prince William's 21st birthday party where Aaron Barschak manages to get into
03:02:54 where Aaron Barschak manages to get into Windsor Castle and go up on stage where Prince William was speaking. Is that as an event something that came
03:03:06 Is that as an event something that came up in conversation in in the pub when this was being discussed? I don't think so. I mean, if it had if it had come up, I'd have told him that there was a
03:03:17 I'd have told him that there was a massive difference between a prince's with a celebrity-laden birthday party and and the Israeli Prime Minister visiting number 10. I mean, for start, the Prince William's twit at
03:03:30 for start, the Prince William's twit at 21 years old wasn't surrounded by a load of gun- gun-toting Mossad agents, was he?
03:03:35 he? I don't think. Uh and I just want to give you the opportunity to comment on the accuracy of the next paragraph, please. "SDS provided
03:03:46 paragraph, please. "SDS provided detailed and highly accurate intelligence on this endeavor. Eventually, the SDS officer was able to persuade the de facto leader of the
03:03:57 persuade the de facto leader of the group to confront MT about the action. The officer was then one of two people picked by that individual into talking MT out of carrying out his plan the next
03:04:09 MT out of carrying out his plan the next morning.
03:04:10 morning. This was successfully achieved. The dummy vest was retrieved by the officer and destroyed. Okay?
03:04:19 It's very convenient that he destroyed the vest because no one ever saw it. But um I mean it this this report contradicts his previous reports, doesn't it? It
03:04:31 his previous reports, doesn't it? It says that I chose two people to talk him out of it. I know that X had more respect for me than anyone else because we got on well and because you know, we knew each other well. We
03:04:43 you know, we knew each other well. We had a mutual respect and even even up until recently, you know, um actually in the in the last in the last eight years, both X and
03:04:55 in the last eight years, both X and myself
03:04:57 myself have lost both of our parents. And every time one of them died, we had a long phone
03:05:02 phone phone conversation with each other about it. We were that that that was the nature of our friendship. We were very very close. I would not have chosen anyone else to talk to him other than myself because I knew I could
03:05:13 other than myself because I knew I could have that influence over him. This is this is absolute nonsense. Um so he's he's contradicting himself, which I'm assuming he's trying to sex it
03:05:24 which I'm assuming he's trying to sex it up in order to to get a stay of execution for the SDS. And
03:05:30 And and you know, he's he's just you know, I mean
03:05:34 mean I can't understand when when when that would be carrying out this this plan the next morning. I mean I don't it's it's just doesn't make it doesn't add up at all and it just stinks of utter utter tripe.
03:05:47 of utter utter tripe. For want of a better word. The reference in that
03:05:50 in that sentence that the officer was then one of two people picked by that individual into talking MT out of carrying out his plan the next morning. I suppose it could mean that the plan was to take
03:06:01 could mean that the plan was to take effect the next morning, but it also could be a reference to the conversation talking him out of it took place the following morning. Is that
03:06:13 Is that Is that possible that there was a further conversation? The following day after the discussion in the pub about this? I don't think so
03:06:24 in the pub about this? I don't think so because um I mean
03:06:26 I mean there wasn't any meeting planned that morning.
03:06:29 morning. Of the Ariel Sharon visit there was there was a protest called I think by the Stop the War Coalition in the evening that day in a pen opposite
03:06:40 the evening that day in a pen opposite the entrance to to to Downing Street on Whitehall. So I don't know when the opportunity to have a conversation in the morning would have arisen to be honest with you.
03:06:51 have arisen to be honest with you. Um
03:06:52 Um The X normally stayed in deepest darkest London when he came up to to London for any any actions quite a long way out of well more Surrey
03:07:05 quite a long way out of well more Surrey than than London to be honest with you. So
03:07:08 So I don't think you know kind of meeting up with him in the morning would be would
03:07:12 would would be planned or even possible to be honest with you. So I don't think it just doesn't add up at all. Now
03:07:21 Now You referred at 2118's account. So I'd I'd like to turn back please to 118 statement page 77 please.
03:07:35 And in this part of his statement he refers to the document that we've just been looking at.
03:07:49 And so can you see paragraph 2 11 referring to that document? And then it is A, where he says describing the
03:08:01 it is A, where he says describing the examples that he gave in in this document. A, preventing a young activist from confronting Arshad during his visit to London wearing a fake suicide vest.
03:08:12 to London wearing a fake suicide vest. It seemed likely at the time that the protection detail with Arshad would have reacted with deadly force. As it was, and then this. Taylor took a similarly dim view of this planned stunt, albeit
03:08:25 dim view of this planned stunt, albeit for slightly different reasons. More concerned with the security and credibility of GR. And he and I dissuaded the young activist from
03:08:38 dissuaded the young activist from executing
03:08:39 executing his
03:08:40 his plan.
03:08:42 plan. And so here, in 118's statement to the inquiry,
03:08:48 inquiry, he
03:08:49 he has indicated, as you have, that you took a dim view of the planned stunt. But indicated firstly that you were more concerned with the security and credibility of GR. Is that fair and
03:09:01 credibility of GR. Is that fair and accurate?
03:09:03 accurate? My main motivation was not to see X dead.
03:09:08 dead. Um
03:09:09 Um when it came to the the the credibility and security of GR, yeah, I like I said earlier, I I threw every reason I could think of at him because I wanted to stop it. Um so, I did I did I
03:09:21 wanted to stop it. Um so, I did I did I did um say those, you know, address those issues. But um
03:09:28 But um X as I've
03:09:30 X as I've demonstrated in the in in the last 5 minutes that, you know, he's a close friend of mine and I did not want to see him die. And I still don't want to see him die. So, um I think it was though I had the same
03:09:41 I think it was though I had the same views as he as he as he expresses here. That I don't want to see that deadly force applied to him and and there was other reasons I wanted him to consider as well but all of it was aimed at one
03:09:54 as well but all of it was aimed at one thing and that was stopping the stunt which was
03:09:58 which was what we achieved. Thank you. So um Yeah. I want to go back to MT. And and look at another report that HM118
03:10:12 report that HM118 made in relation to MT. I'm going to ask please if the web version of this document could please be put up on screen. So it is at your tab B173.
03:10:24 B173. It is MPS0028914.
03:10:28 It's a report that we've dated the 1st of September 2003. So we'll put it on screen.
03:10:39 Okay.
03:10:44 Now, we can see the top report and there's a series of these but if we just go through these and again what I want to ask you about is what is stated here in terms of accuracy, okay?
03:10:55 stated here in terms of accuracy, okay? So intelligence globalize resistance MT. MT is a member of the steering committee of the London-based anti-capitalist group globalize resistance. We know that's correct. It had been his intention to travel to
03:11:08 It had been his intention to travel to Israel late this summer to visit the so-called occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank. Now, only from your knowledge and please say if you don't know but is that correct? Was it MT's
03:11:21 know but is that correct? Was it MT's intention to travel to Israel? He never mentioned that to me. I think he would have done if he was planning it. I was I was quite keen on people visiting Palestine because I thought it
03:11:32 visiting Palestine because I thought it would, you know, people coming back with eyewitness accounts of the place and what's happening in in in the in the in the West Bank and Gaza is useful for trying to highlight what's happening
03:11:43 trying to highlight what's happening there and it makes people capable of going around and speaking at meetings about it and and highlighting it. So, I'm I was a big fan of that. I'm sure he would have mentioned it to me if he was planning it, but he never did.
03:11:55 he was planning it, but he never did. Now, the last sentence says, "In recent days, MT has abandoned these plans claiming a lack of funds and an intention to travel elsewhere later in the year." Does that ring any bells that well, he was going to go, but the money
03:12:07 well, he was going to go, but the money wasn't there and didn't Is that something you recall or this is again sometime ago. Can't MT was a student, so he obviously didn't have any money. So,
03:12:18 So, the yeah, the lack of funds doesn't surprise me. I don't remember being particularly aware of that, but uh
03:12:25 but uh I wouldn't have I wouldn't have ever imagined unless he got help paying for it, he would have traveled anywhere else where that in that year because uh he didn't have any money, but maybe
03:12:36 he didn't have any money, but maybe maybe family or some way of might have funded a a trip somewhere. I don't know, but
03:12:41 but I didn't know about that. If you can keep on that page and zoom out so we have the the whole document. Now, I'm going to ask you about the next report and you can see in the next report that we've put on temporary privacy
03:12:53 we've put on temporary privacy boxes. So, I'm going to ask please don't refer to the name under those temporary privacy boxes, but if we could go through this report, please, because I
03:13:05 through this report, please, because I think it was something you alluded to earlier in your evidence when I was asking you about racism. So, Intelligence Globalized Resistance MT and Temporary Privacy.
03:13:16 MT and Temporary Privacy. Temporary Privacy and MT are both steering committee members of the London-based anti-capitalist group Globalized Resistance. The pair have become increasingly close in recent weeks and are spending more and more
03:13:28 weeks and are spending more and more time in each other's company. Both men, whilst committed to the aims of the anti-capitalist global justice movement, are really most passionate about the plight of the Palestinian people and are unwavering supporters of
03:13:42 people and are unwavering supporters of the second intifada. As far as that goes, can you assist us with the accuracy of what is set out there, focusing on MT rather than the
03:13:53 there, focusing on MT rather than the person under the temporary privacy box?
03:14:00 Um
03:14:06 I I I I don't recognize any support for the second intifada as such from MT. Um and
03:14:15 and I
03:14:17 Committed to the aims of anti-capitalism, not really. Uh That was just this movement, yeah, more so. Are really most passionate Like I said earlier, I mean like, you know, it's one of his
03:14:28 know, it's one of his one of his major concerns about about the Palestinian people, but I don't think it
03:14:34 think it it was, you know, more than the concerns for Iraqi people or Pakistani people. I mean, I
03:14:39 mean, I I I think um Yeah, they they they had it particularly bad and he was he was active on the on on the issue, but I, you know, I I don't think an unwavering support of
03:14:50 I I don't think an unwavering support of the second intifada at all. Like Okay.
03:14:53 Okay. And if we continue, temporary privacy and MT have both traveled in the past to the occupied territories and MT in particular claims still to be in occasional contact with activists in both Gaza and Nablus. MT is
03:15:07 activists in both Gaza and Nablus. MT is very busy organizing political activity in and around London University. Privacy and has become something of a one-stop advice shop for activists intending to travel to the occupied
03:15:19 intending to travel to the occupied territories with the International Solidarity Movement ISM and under their own
03:15:25 own steam. Is this something that you were aware of?
03:15:29 aware of? The No, I don't think he did I don't think I didn't think he had ever visited Gaza and Nablus. Um I think he he might be keen on people going there like I like I
03:15:41 keen on people going there like I like I am like I was at the time and and I wouldn't be now. Um So, I don't I don't think I don't think that's true. I I think it's um
03:15:52 that's true. I I think it's um I think he's overstating the case really. Um but yeah, I I think that's that's an exaggeration. It's not a lie. I don't know. Okay. Because the description of MT
03:16:07 Because the description of MT uh
03:16:07 uh is repeatedly in these reports about being passionate about the plight of the Palestinian people. And in terms of
03:16:18 And in terms of uh the
03:16:21 uh the suicide
03:16:22 suicide vest
03:16:24 vest um
03:16:25 um plan
03:16:28 plan the description of uh MT in in these reports um appears to provide uh a motive as to why uh an activist would
03:16:40 a motive as to why uh an activist would want to
03:16:41 want to um
03:16:42 um do what what was planned. Was there anyone else apart from MT uh who outwardly demonstrated a particular passion for the plight of the
03:16:53 particular passion for the plight of the Palestinian people? Yeah, that's I mean most of the people involved in anti-capitalism showed a a concern for the plight of Palestinian
03:17:04 a concern for the plight of Palestinian people at the time. I think um just like they have over the past two three years. Um It was a big issue amongst most of the people involved on the left in general.
03:17:17 people involved on the left in general. Um the plight of the Palestinian people has been a a huge issue for us all for as long as I can remember, as long as I've been active. You think it was said MT stood out
03:17:30 You think it was said MT stood out as being particularly passionate about that,
03:17:33 that, what would you what would you say to that?
03:17:39 MT was as I said he he was particularly um
03:17:44 um concerned about human rights and he was and in the anti-war movement as well. That was his main thing. And I think the the the crossover between the letter by the US and the UK
03:17:58 between the letter by the US and the UK excuse me um on the uh on on Iraq or Afghanistan does have some crossover with concern for the Palestinian people, you know. Black and brown people being being uh
03:18:09 Black and brown people being being uh persecuted by um by the West. Um I think that there is a kind of crossover there, but I think I don't I didn't I don't remember noticing any more so coming from MT than anyone
03:18:20 any more so coming from MT than anyone else
03:18:20 else in in in the movement to be honest with you. And going back to X what what what about the same question of about X as he did he
03:18:28 did he apart from the proposed action did did he at any other time exhibit any particular interest in this topic?
03:18:39 topic? X again X X was a was involved in Global Resistance way before you know from from the off really uh
03:18:50 You know, I first met X at a meeting of uh
03:18:56 of uh of
03:18:57 of uh Global Resistance one of the first meetings we had a meeting with them with José Bové the French um farming
03:19:05 farming uh activist uh in in Camden and uh and that's where I first met X. Um
03:19:13 Um that must have been I I can't remember exactly when it probably April 2001. So, he'd been around before 9/11 Which is, you know, there was a I I
03:19:25 Which is, you know, there was a I I suppose when you look at a global resistance before 9/11, it was anti-capitalism time. It was, you know, people talking about Enron, about um corporate power, about all the rest of it. 9/11 happens and things change
03:19:37 it. 9/11 happens and things change because it goes on to anti-war stuff and anti-imperialist stuff, the role of the state in in the in things as well. So, basically, I know that
03:19:48 basically, I know that X was involved in the anti-anti-capitalist, the purer anti-capitalist stuff, but he very, very willingly and um purposefully uh moved on to a an anti-war stance.
03:20:01 on to a an anti-war stance. So, um
03:20:02 So, um I forgot what your question is, but it is
03:20:04 is Sorry.
03:20:05 Sorry. You you had described earlier that the differences between MT and X, and we were going through a number of reports on on MT in relation to what he's passionate about.
03:20:16 passionate about. Just in terms of X and H and 118, to what extent did you view them interacting? Did they meet once, many times? Could you help us with how well
03:20:28 times? Could you help us with how well they knew each other from your perspective?
03:20:35 I think it might be the case that they Well, they certainly knew each other better than MT and 118. Um but I don't it wasn't it wasn't I I I
03:20:48 Um but I don't it wasn't it wasn't I I I I mentioned um 118 to um to X uh a few years ago and I had to remind him who he was. I mean, like they weren't they didn't have a close relationship. So, um certainly, I think um
03:21:01 So, um certainly, I think um yeah. Probably they they knew each other better than MT and
03:21:06 MT and 118, but uh so X and and uh 118 yeah, they they knew each other better, but not very well, really. They weren't close.
03:21:15 close. So,
03:21:17 So, not close. Not close. But, 118, your evidence is that 118 knew X more than he knew MT. Yes.
03:21:33 Could you explain why you've come to that conclusion? Is it in terms of just seeing their interaction, the number of times they interacted? Yeah, I
03:21:45 interacted? Yeah, I There might have been
03:21:48 Yeah, I mean, I X didn't live in London. But, when he came to London, he was hanging out with me all the time. Quite often, he stayed at my place. And he would
03:21:59 And he would he would be I mean, I was a big fan of the pub and he would be there all the time. And he probably come along to every meeting available. Um
03:22:08 Um uh MT did not. He He was He was a little bit more reserved. He was interested in other forms of political activity. For X, it was, you know, GR
03:22:19 activity. For X, it was, you know, GR was the center of his political world. So, um
03:22:22 So, um Yeah, he he was he threw himself into activity and into into meeting with us, being with us, protesting with us all the time when he was in London. So,
03:22:33 the time when he was in London. So, there was much more opportunity of getting exposure to X than there was to MT.
03:22:38 MT. If it was said about HM118's identification of MT as being the person that came up with the plan. If it was said, knowing everything that you know
03:22:51 said, knowing everything that you know about the individuals involved, that it was an honest mistake. What would your reaction be to to that as as a possible suggestion? If he If it were to be said, we'll we'll hear
03:23:03 were to be said, we'll we'll hear HM118's evidence next week. If it were to be said that it was a mistake, that it It an honest and a genuine mistake mixing them up. Is Is that an understandable mistake knowing
03:23:16 that an understandable mistake knowing what you do about each of their interaction? No. No, there's no Unless you have 50 of your 100 points that night, I don't think he could have done that at all. I mean, they were very different people
03:23:27 mean, they were very different people and
03:23:29 and No, they
03:23:30 No, they My view on it is is this the story would have had less traction with his management if it was a white bloke than if it was someone that was brown, to be honest with you. And And that was why he
03:23:43 honest with you. And And that was why he transposed those names because it made the story a lot more exciting, a lot more
03:23:49 more a lot more appealing to the to the police and what have you. So, I can't see any other reason for it. That's what he did. He did that a lot of the time. In my statement I put out 60
03:24:00 the time. In my statement I put out 60 corrections 66 or 70 corrections to things he he put in his um he put in his in his statement and his his reporting. And this is another time
03:24:11 his reporting. And this is another time of actually making himself look more important, more on the cutting edge. And uh and you know, using someone's race as an excuse for making making this story more urgent and more exciting.
03:24:24 Before we break for lunch, I'm going to ask you some questions about reporting on you by 118 of your personal
03:24:35 reporting on you by 118 of your personal life and in terms of the impact of those. I just want to go through um
03:24:40 um relatively quickly but just these reports before lunch, please. I wonder if we could begin by turning up search at your tab B73. It's MPS Travel 09323.
03:25:01 Report dated 2nd of June at 2002, Globalized Resistance, Guy Taylor's living arrangements. Uh Guy Taylor, the de facto leader of
03:25:12 Uh Guy Taylor, the de facto leader of Globalize Resistance, currently lives in Blackheath Village, Southeast London. He occupies the basement rooms of a house that belongs to the parents of his best friend, privacy. He apparently has a large double bedroom
03:25:23 He apparently has a large double bedroom and access to a basement kitchen and shower room. He pays £250 a month in rent to the couple that own and also live in the house. This arrangement came about after privacy snoozed wedding, where Taylor
03:25:37 privacy snoozed wedding, where Taylor privacy Taylor had apparently recently split up with his previous long-term girlfriend, privacy. When privacy's mother heard that Taylor was sleeping on a succession of friends' floors, she immediately offered him a place at their
03:25:49 immediately offered him a place at their house. Taylor took them up on the offer and lived there rent-free for the first 6 months. He is clearly fond of the couple who give him free rein within the property and refer to themselves as a couple [laughter] of old hippies, much
03:26:01 couple [laughter] of old hippies, much to Taylor's amusement. What was the impact on you of reading an undercover police officer's intelligence report about you in these
03:26:12 intelligence report about you in these terms, setting out the details of your living arrangements? Um
03:26:18 Um I felt violated by that. Um I mean, where where is, you know, I don't think there's anything particularly untrue in this account. Um I just didn't think this type of
03:26:31 Um I just didn't think this type of information was particularly important to the declared um
03:26:37 um reasons for his infiltration of of Globalize Resistance. So, this is quite a common theme of uh of talking about stuff like this. Um and I just think it's uh it's totally
03:26:49 I just think it's uh it's totally unnecessary, very intrusive. And, you know, actually played back on on the on the the couple I lived with at the time.
03:26:58 the time. You know, later on in in in the in the documents, there's a is a full um
03:27:03 um itemized
03:27:05 itemized uh
03:27:06 uh uh
03:27:07 uh copy of all their phone calls, which um which was even took it to another level. I mean, you know, that they've I've known my best friend uh who's uh described here
03:27:18 who's uh described here for uh a good long time, and they they they gave me they gave me his um a room in their their house, and uh I was really grateful for that.
03:27:29 was really grateful for that. And I
03:27:30 And I I did discuss politics with them, but basically they didn't agree with me, and uh but they were very kind to me, and I don't think they should have had this type of uh intrusion into their privacy as well. I'm going to ask if we could
03:27:41 as well. I'm going to ask if we could turn up another report. It is um at NPS
03:27:48 at NPS 00 11808.
03:28:04 [clears throat] So, in this report, I'm going to ask if we could just look at the
03:28:12 at the report that is at the uh
03:28:15 uh bottom of the page, please.
03:28:21 So, it says uh tab B137.
03:28:26 Uh Guy Taylor's effectiveness as leader in some doubt. Several prominent globalize activists have become recently concerned that Guy Taylor, the de facto leader of globalize resistance, has gone
03:28:37 leader of globalize resistance, has gone slightly off the boil and is not leading globalize as effectively as he should be.
03:28:41 be. These concerns have come to a head over the weekend of the 15th of February, which saw the huge anti-war demonstration, and should have been a huge recruiting and indeed money-making opportunity for globalize. Noel Douglas,
03:28:53 opportunity for globalize. Noel Douglas, Jonathan Neale, and Chris Nineham are are to these concerns, and they are united in their opinion as to the cause and we're just going over to the next page.
03:29:07 If we could just move to the page two, please.
03:29:13 If we could just zoom out so that we can just see the Yep, so they united as to the cause of Taylor's lackluster performance, his new romance with his latest girlfriend
03:29:25 romance with his latest girlfriend privacy.
03:29:27 privacy. Taylor by his own admission is absolutely smitten with privacy and seems to be approaching the relationship with all the blind enthusiasm and devotion of a teenager. Taylor recently confided to a trusted friend that he
03:29:39 confided to a trusted friend that he genuinely feels that she is out of his league and so seems to be treating every day as if it might be his last.
03:29:49 last. In relation [clears throat] to that
03:29:52 to that description in this report, what was your reaction to reading those details about you and your girlfriend at the time, please? I
03:30:03 your girlfriend at the time, please? I think it's quite ironic that he mentions the weekend of the 15th of February 2003 in this. That was the biggest demonstration ever in British history. The week before that, I'd been on a
03:30:14 The week before that, I'd been on a speaking tour of the UK with Heidi Giuliani, the mother of Carlo Giuliani, and
03:30:21 and and a Italian trade unionist, and we traveled the length and breadth of the country
03:30:27 country putting on these meetings everywhere trying to put an anti-capitalist kind of flavor to the 15th of February demonstration. We've already been through there was a meeting on the eve of 15th
03:30:40 there was a meeting on the eve of 15th of February which at the LSE where where I I I was and I've been followed around by copper all day. The idea
03:30:48 The idea that I was my my my my lackluster performance and what have you. I was I was putting in a shift. Um
03:30:57 shift. Um I think you'll be able to ask Noel Douglas and Chris Nineham over the next couple of days if they recognize this report. Again, it's um I don't I
03:31:08 I don't I I'm I fail to see why he tries to tie this into a a new relationship I I've been in. This is this is a a recurring um a habit
03:31:21 This is this is a a recurring um a habit of his just to put it all down to oh, look at that. He's having a a new relationship. It's nonsense. It's and I don't think either of the next couple of
03:31:32 don't think either of the next couple of witnesses you'll get on this case will will will recognize it either. Um The fact is that I I carried on as normal and and it's interesting actually cuz later
03:31:44 and it's interesting actually cuz later reports say she's frustrated at me not put putting enough time into the relationship. He tries to have it both ways and he can't have it either cuz he doesn't really know what's going on.
03:31:55 doesn't really know what's going on. Again, he's trying to look like he is closer to me than he actually is. He's trying to make his own standing very important and basically he's resorting
03:32:06 important and basically he's resorting to utter bull utter nonsense. Sorry. And if we could just zoom out of that, please, just so that we have the report there. I wonder if we're just going to go to two more reports and we'll break
03:32:18 go to two more reports and we'll break for lunch. Could we please turn up so it's at your tab B142. It's MPS0721324.
03:32:40 And if we look at the first report and these are dated the 23rd of February 2003. So, Guy Taylor, leader of Globalise Resistance, he will be spending this coming weekend, 22nd and
03:32:53 spending this coming weekend, 22nd and 23rd of February 2003, in the West Country at his friend Hector's stately home, believed to be named Taplow Park or similar. Sorry, can't remember the name. I've put stuff in on Hector
03:33:04 name. I've put stuff in on Hector before, including the correct name of the house. Hector is a somewhat eccentric figure who inherited the family seat and subsequently became politically radicalized in the run-up to the Genoa protests. His manor house is now effectively a commune housing a
03:33:16 now effectively a commune housing a number of activists and new age types. Taylor spends occasional weekends there to unwind, usually switch off his mobile phone, and refusing to check his email accounts for the duration of his stay.
03:33:28 accounts for the duration of his stay. This weekend, Taylor will be taking his new girlfriend, Privacy, with him. He will be traveling by National Express coach from London Victoria to Barnstaple on Friday afternoon, and will be
03:33:39 on Friday afternoon, and will be returning on Monday. He booked the coach tickets by the National Express website on the afternoon of Thursday, the 20th of February, from GR office computer. And again, what impact did it have on
03:33:50 And again, what impact did it have on you reading a report about your weekend plans and where you were going to take your girlfriend that weekend? What What impact does it did that have on you reading
03:34:01 reading information of that nature? It makes It makes me feel like I don't have any I don't have any any standing. It's I'm just something to be reported on. I'm
03:34:13 just something to be reported on. I'm just a, you know, I'm just this piece of that organizes stuff politically and therefore my private life is there for anyone to to to read about and and to comment on.
03:34:26 about and and to comment on. I think it's um I mean, certainly, my girlfriend at that time didn't agree with Globalise Resistance. She was never a member of Globalise Resistance and we had plenty political disagreements.
03:34:38 political disagreements. But, um
03:34:40 But, um the idea that she and me can be reported on in this way is is is shambolic and and obviously has no bearing at at all where I spend
03:34:51 has no bearing at at all where I spend my weekends on anything to do with public order. This is just This is just, you know, kind of gossip about me. I didn't I didn't ask for it. I didn't earn it and I didn't deserve it. So,
03:35:02 earn it and I didn't deserve it. So, yeah, I mean, this stuff makes me very angry indeed to read this stuff. Last report before we break for lunch it's so your tab B239 and it's MPS0035842,
03:35:13 your tab B239 and it's MPS0035842, please. And could we please go to page four of that document.
03:35:30 So, it's the the the report at the bottom. So, again, a globalized resistance report on you. And then, let's begin with the second paragraph. Taylor has been involved with American girlfriend privacy for about 15
03:35:42 American girlfriend privacy for about 15 months now. Privacy does not hold extremist political views in stark contrast to almost every other one of Taylor's friends and confidants. Just
03:35:53 Taylor's friends and confidants. Just pausing there, is that at least accurate that the girlfriend being described here, unlike you, did not have any particularly particular political views? Is that fair? She I mean, it's the same
03:36:06 Is that fair? She I mean, it's the same person that we've just been talking about and yeah, we did did have political differences and she wasn't as radical as me. Um
03:36:14 Um puts paid to the fact that she was out of my league and I was I was I was treating every night um night like it was my last cuz we were together for 15 months by this point. Um so, yeah, I
03:36:25 months by this point. Um so, yeah, I mean, basically she Yeah, she was she was um
03:36:30 was um yeah, milder in her political viewpoints, but that was that was not the not our meeting of minds and we we helped I helped her draft her leaflets and and and she
03:36:41 and and and she told me what she thought of my political um views. I don't think she saw me as an extremist though. She just saw me as someone who fought in a different way. The next paragraph states she is
03:36:52 The next paragraph states she is political, but her beliefs most closely match those on the very fluffiest edge of the global justice movement. In short, she is a reformist rather than a revolutionary.
03:37:04 revolutionary. And then this. Additionally, privacy is somewhat high maintenance, which has led to the almost unbelievable situation of Taylor being late for demos or actions
03:37:17 late for demos or actions because she will not leave home before applying her makeup and fixing her hair.
03:37:27 What would you say if it was
03:37:32 if it was if someone said that the UCOs
03:37:38 the UCOs hoovered up information and it wasn't for them to decide whether that information was important or not. That was others. That all they were there to
03:37:49 was others. That all they were there to do was to
03:37:51 do was to make notes of intelligence and pass them on to their managers. What would you say if someone said that as a as a justification for this report?
03:38:03 this report? Um
03:38:05 Um makes me think why why was there such an a concentration on my relationship with with this woman? Um
03:38:15 Um we had a very healthy relationship. We had a very very rewarding one for I think for both of us until it it it came to an end, which was probably about a few months after after
03:38:26 probably about a few months after after after this um uh report was made. Um
03:38:31 Um I can only imagine that it was these reports were made in order to try and exploit our relationship in one way or another, either by by exploiting it to
03:38:42 another, either by by exploiting it to her or to me or to or to other people in Global Resistance. I I'm
03:38:48 I I'm I was never aware of anyone in Global Resistance having an issue with my relationship with this woman. And I wasn't you know, she came along to
03:38:59 I wasn't you know, she came along to various events where lots of Global Resistance people would would have been present. So, she wasn't a mysterious figure in the background. She was my girlfriend and we and we never hid that
03:39:10 girlfriend and we and we never hid that and and we and you know I I don't understand why they would bother doing all this reporting unless there was some underhand more sinister value to it. Um
03:39:23 underhand more sinister value to it. Um Yeah, I
03:39:24 Yeah, I it's
03:39:25 it's she she never slowed me down though. I mean like
03:39:28 mean like I was quite I was I never I never stopped doing stuff with Global Resistance. That was my very being and my motivation in life. If if someone were to say this that the justification of
03:39:40 say this that the justification of reporting these personal details in relation to your girlfriend was that you are
03:39:47 are as described a de facto leader of an important group Global Resistance and if you were becoming less effective as a leader of that group that that is
03:40:00 leader of that group that that is of relevance to those that who are in charge of ensuring that there's no public disorder. What would you say to that sort of argument because Well, there was only one area in which I
03:40:11 Well, there was only one area in which I was becoming less effective and that was the area in between Simon Welling's ears. It was It wasn't the case. I I'm pretty sure I didn't become any less effective at that
03:40:23 didn't become any less effective at that point. This is the heyday of of Global Resistance. This is when we doing stuff constantly and we were having new ideas and we were having new projects and we were putting them into in in in into effect. And I don't know whether they
03:40:35 effect. And I don't know whether they had a word with me about my lack of lack of effectiveness or or or energy or dedication to the job. Um
03:40:46 Um you know, this was this just didn't happen and as for you know, me being late because of makeup and fixing hair, I mean I was I was often late for things, but that was
03:40:57 was often late for things, but that was just um
03:40:58 just um general tardiness, but um I don't I I this is this is again this is made up stuff trying to show weakness and and it and and and his closeness to me and uh
03:41:09 me and uh it just this is this is again fantasy. So, I don't know if that's a good convenient moment to break for lunch. Certainly. We'll have the hour for lunch and resume at 5:05.
03:41:21 and resume at 5:05. Thank you.
03:44:19 Mhm.
03:46:14 Mhm.
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04:14:59 Mhm.
04:17:59 Hey.