Patricia Da Silva provides emotional testimony regarding the shooting of her cousin, Jean Charles de Menezes, the subsequent police misinformation, and the surveillance of the 'Justice for Jean' campaign. She describes the trauma of discovering his death and the feeling of being manipulated by police liaison officers.
00:38:53 Good morning everybody. Uh do please sit down. Uh, today's proceedings are being livereamed, but after the usual 10-minute delay, those with mobile devices in the public gallery may use
00:39:04 devices in the public gallery may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only 10 minutes after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. Uh, they may not be used for recording or photography.
00:39:15 be used for recording or photography. Yes,
00:39:20 I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God. The evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth
00:39:32 shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth.
00:39:44 Yes. Thank you sir. Good morning Mrs. um Dmani. My name is Nasmine Immanas. I'm council um to inquir. Um firstly I would like to thank
00:39:55 inquir. Um firstly I would like to thank you very much for attending today and giving evidence to assist the inquiry. Um my questions are intended to be short and simple. But if you have any difficulty in
00:40:06 But if you have any difficulty in understanding my questions please do let me know and I will reword them. If at any time you need a break please let me know and we can take a short break but we will be having a break
00:40:17 break but we will be having a break around 11:30.
00:40:21 Mrs. Mr. Demani, you've provided the inquiry with two witness statements. The first is UCPI 38355.
00:40:32 38355. Um, so that is tab A1. It's consisting of 52 pages dated the 17th of June 2025.
00:40:44 of 52 pages dated the 17th of June 2025. You can confirm that on the last page you signed it.
00:40:52 Yes, you provided a second witness statement to inquiry and that is UCPI 39715 and serve as tab 826.
00:41:03 and serve as tab 826. Um, this statement consists of six pages and it's dated the 17th of February 2026 and you can confirm that on the last page that is signed by yourself.
00:41:15 page that is signed by yourself. Yes, I confirm. And you've had an opportunity to read both statements. Yes. And you can confirm that both statements are true to the best of your
00:41:26 statements are true to the best of your knowledge and belief.
00:41:33 Yes. Thank you. Sir, can they be read into um Mrs. Deman? Just to sign pause you for the topics that I'll be covering today.
00:41:45 I'll be first asking questions about Jean Charles Deimenez and your family. A bit of background.
00:41:54 Then I will move on to the day Jean Charles was um shot and killed in that period.
00:42:02 Then the investigations into his death.
00:42:06 Afterwards I would move on to the justice for Jean campaign that was set up.
00:42:15 and then um the undercover police officer surveillance and u I'll refer to specific documents
00:42:27 and lastly I will ask you some questions about the apologies that you received from the Metropolitan Police and the impact it's had on you.
00:42:40 Okay. So moving to the first topic if I can ask you um some background questions about Jean Charles.
00:42:49 Could UCPI 38375 be put on the screen at page three? Sir, this is at tab A9.
00:43:04 So it's this is a photo of Sean Charles. Yes.
00:43:10 Yes. Um and it's right so we can say that um he was born on the 7th of January 1978.
00:43:20 Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:22 Yeah. Um how old is he in this photograph? Oh, sorry. How old is he?
00:43:32 Um I think I think he was 25 years old. Are you not sure? Okay. Um, and it's right to say that Jean Charles is your was your cousin.
00:43:46 Jean Charles is your was your cousin. Yes.
00:43:47 Yes. Could you describe what Jean Charles was like as a person?
00:44:14 Uh he was a young guy. Uh he was working hard and he was like a a regular person but a very happy uh person and I believe he was just uh trying to find a job and
00:44:27 he was just uh trying to find a job and things that he likes to do.
00:44:36 Uh he was uh very good in communication. He has a lot of friends.
00:44:53 So as I would say he was like any young person trying to uh find his uh his dreams. Uh so this was J. Thank you. Um that document can can be
00:45:05 Thank you. Um that document can can be um can come down now. Thank you. So I'm I'm now going to focus on the period when Jean Charles was shot and killed. I do know it may be difficult for you. So
00:45:19 do know it may be difficult for you. So at the time he he he died. It's right that he was 27 years of old of age.
00:45:28 Yes. 27 years old. And at the time um you were living with him and another cousin in in London.
00:45:40 Yes. Um and Jean Charles was working at the time.
00:45:46 time. Yes.
00:45:47 Yes. What what was he what was he doing as well?
00:45:58 So he was working as a literian at this time.
00:46:04 Now we know on the 7th of July 2005, so that's two weeks before the shooting,
00:46:15 there was a terrorist attack in London.
00:46:19 um and several bombs exploded on the London Underground and on a bus.
00:46:26 And on the 21st of July, there was an attempt to detonate bombs again on the London Underground, but they did not explode.
00:46:36 So, moving on to the 22nd of July, the news had reported that a suspected terrorist had been shot on the tube that morning.
00:46:50 Is it right to say that on the 22nd of July,
00:46:55 July, the police did not inform you or your family
00:46:59 family about what happened to Jean Charles that day?
00:47:24 It's not right because I was not informed on the day he was killed. And it wasn't until the next day, so on the 23rd of July, that you that you realized that Jean Charles was missing.
00:47:36 realized that Jean Charles was missing. Is that right?
00:47:43 Yes. That's it.
00:47:47 Um, in your statement, um, at paragraph 1.14,
00:47:55 1.14, page seven,
00:48:01 um, you describe um, what happened the next morning. Could um, UCPI 38355 be put up, please, at page seven?
00:48:15 114.
00:48:21 So, I'm just going to read it out.
00:48:25 On Saturday morning, I had gone to work early as usual about 5:50 a.m. in Brmley where I had a cleaning job. After work, I had gone to the library at about midm morning. I noticed e even then on a
00:48:38 morning. I noticed e even then on a Brazilian website ull that the police in London had killed a Brazilian man in Stockwell. The report said he was in he was an illegal Brazilian entrant. My
00:48:49 was an illegal Brazilian entrant. My head did not conceive it could have been Jean but it makes me wonder how this was leaked to Brazilian media. I had a mis call but when I arrived back back to our flat Vivian Jean's other cousin who
00:49:01 flat Vivian Jean's other cousin who lived with us was very agitated. Jezio was saying he was he had been visited by the police at around 1:00 a.m. and that Jean had been arrested on suspicion of terrorism. The police told him were
00:49:15 terrorism. The police told him were trying to contact Jean's family. That's when the lies had started. They had already knew Jean had been shot and killed. The police never contacted us directly. I called Alex and told him to
00:49:26 directly. I called Alex and told him to come to our flat. It is likely Alex saw the news and made a connection he was dead. Um firstly, um so Jezio was saying he had been
00:49:37 um so Jezio was saying he had been visited by the police around 1:00 a.m. Who's who is
00:49:44 sorry?
00:49:50 I'm right to answer that. Could you repeat the question, please? So it says Jazzy was saying he had been visited by the police at around 1:00 a.m.
00:50:01 a.m. So, who is Jezio? Jez was a friend, Jean's friend. Um, so at the time you weren't aware
00:50:13 Um, so at the time you weren't aware that Jean had been shot. Um, how did you find out that the person that was shot was actually Jean Charles?
00:50:37 I only found out when I arrived at the police station in Brixton. That's the only time I found out. And when did you go to Brixton Police Station?
00:50:59 French. So I went there after Alex arrived to our flat and but Alex went with Jazu beforehand. And who's Alex?
00:51:10 And who's Alex? Kenya. Alex. Alex is is war cousin. Cousin.
00:51:18 Cousin. And how did finding out about the death of Jean Charles affect you and your family?
00:52:02 Uh when I arrived at the police station in Brixton, uh we gather uh all the cousins were gathered and then they told us that the person that was shot and killed by the police in Stockwell was uh
00:52:14 killed by the police in Stockwell was uh Jean was in a such a shock state. Do you recall? Sorry, I just asked her to stop a little bit if she wants. Just one second. I do apologize. Okay. Oh, good. Thank you.
00:52:25 Okay. Oh, good. Thank you. Do you recall what the police um said to you?
00:52:34 Um
00:52:53 Police.
00:53:14 Um, uh, well, uh, I remember when I arrived at the police station, uh, was a little bit confused. Uh, Alex was uh was nervous. Uh, so uh they took us to a
00:53:27 nervous. Uh, so uh they took us to a room inside the police station. Then I can't recall much. Um, also my English at the time was no good. I would not be able to understand or speak. Um, so so
00:53:40 able to understand or speak. Um, so so about what happened at Stockwell.
00:54:13 Uh, sorry. So I only I only understood when um I what I wonder sorry I only remember that uh what I understood was they said
00:54:24 that uh what I understood was they said to me that J was dead. Uh and then Jazzu at this time he held my hand and he explained to me what happened and he said to me remember that you saw
00:54:36 said to me remember that you saw yesterday that was this guy that was shot and killed by police in Stockwell. So Jean was this guy and
00:54:47 and And how did you feel about the fact that the police hadn't contacted you in in the 24 hours to inform you about
00:55:03 forch.
00:55:50 Look, um I feel I feel uh ve very bad about that and I feel like there's a negligence uh because let's say uh in the the next 24 hours they are to be to
00:56:03 the the next 24 hours they are to be to to be right is 27 hours until I knew that was uh about his being killed. I feel like completely without knowing that was happening. So there was no
00:56:16 that was happening. So there was no communication. I feel very disrespected. Uh and I feel horrible about that. So um Jean Charles was um shot and killed on the morning of the
00:56:28 killed on the morning of the um 22nd. Um, again referring to the PA 114, it says Jio was saying he had been visited by the police at around 1:00 a.m.
00:56:40 a.m. and that Jean had been arrested on suspicion of terrorism.
00:56:47 So, we know at a point at 1 a.m. that that's not true. How do you feel about being told that Jean Charles had been arrested at 1:00 a.m.?
00:57:16 So this was the first lie that I was I had been told.
00:57:24 Fore! Foreign! Foreign!
00:57:45 Um so this as I said it was the first uh lie that I have been told uh because when Jazzio arrived at the flat sorry when I arrive at the flat um Jazz was
00:57:58 when I arrive at the flat um Jazz was already there with my cousin and then she was already distressed and then what he w he told us that he has been detained.
00:58:06 detained. But this is not true. He was already dead.
00:58:09 dead. Thank you. Um I'm done with that document so I can come down. Thank you. Um once the police told you about um Jean Charles um being shot and killed,
00:58:20 Jean Charles um being shot and killed, it's right to say that they took you to a hotel in Kingston, you and your family.
00:58:31 Yes. Could
00:58:35 Could her witness statement be put up once again? Page 10, paragraph 1.23.
00:58:43 So, I'm going to look at this paragraph in in two parts.
00:58:51 It states, "During the time we were in the hotel, we were being accompanied and advised by police, family, Leoison officers who were trying to warn us not
00:59:02 officers who were trying to warn us not to speak to the media and advised us that we did not need to get a second postmortem. They said that the body could be released to the family in Brazil. Our lawyers advised us that we did not need
00:59:13 lawyers advised us that we did not need to comply with what we were told by the police and family years and officers. The lawyers were our salvation. At the hotel, there were only police officers there.
00:59:25 there. Um, we were to come, we're free to come and go, but they would advise us not to go out because the media was surrounding the hotel. It was very tense to go out, but I think there was some manipulation.
00:59:36 but I think there was some manipulation. Uh, we were not aware of our rights. So, it was helpful having privacy and also Yasmin and Assad there. Um so firstly the family leaders and officers um they
00:59:47 the family leaders and officers um they advised you not to speak to the media. How did you feel being advised not to speak to the media?
01:00:10 foreign
01:00:58 Uh well so when I was at the hotel we are kind of like surrounded by the police and they always were giving us advice. uh is not there saying to us that we could not leave the premises. Uh
01:01:11 that we could not leave the premises. Uh we could go uh but they said there's a lot of media uh outdoors. It would be better if you don't approach them now or don't let them come and don't don't talk about this because this is just
01:01:22 about this because this is just happened. Uh so what I believe is a kind of uh a manipulation. So and then but in a way they are saying to us so you don't want to expose about this situation when
01:01:34 want to expose about this situation when you are not aware that's what I recall. So you said uh manipulation you also mentioned this in your in your in this paragraph. What do you mean by manipulation?
01:01:53 Um
01:02:20 Family officers. Ali.
01:02:48 Um so my my way of seeing that or my opinion uh was like the situation was a little bit tense and I think it's more than natural that someone wants to make uh control the situation because the
01:03:00 uh control the situation because the situation was already out of control. So the family like leazison uh she she want to to to keep control and then they don't want the things to expand more
01:03:11 don't want the things to expand more than it was uh already what was happening. Uh, and I believe this was kind of the manipulation and control that I'm talking about. That's what I I I think.
01:03:26 So, after finding out about um his death, could you describe what the attitude of the police were towards um your family and their
01:03:39 were towards um your family and their attitude towards what happened to Jean Charles?
01:03:54 So I was um expecting like the police would uh explain the situation and then the why it happened.
01:04:05 Um despite being advised not to speak to the media, it's right to say that on the 27th of July
01:04:14 Your family held its first press conference.
01:04:27 Yes. Could we turn again? Same witness statement, page 11, paragraph 1.25.
01:04:39 Um, so again, this is your statement. He said, "On the 27th of July, the family campaign held its first press conference where my cousins and I expressed our anger and pain over the lies that had
01:04:51 anger and pain over the lies that had been put out in the public domain by the police and we demanded justice and accountability. Why did you feel the need to speak with the media about the police
01:05:02 the media about the police investigation?
01:05:16 Fore
01:05:37 look, I think it was necessary for us to to kind of manifest uh what what's happening uh with the situation uh as as soon as possible even though I think it
01:05:49 soon as possible even though I think it took uh such a long time because he was killed on the 22nd and then we only went to the media under 27 but we want to express what the family want wants to
01:06:00 express what the family want wants to say. So we we want to know and tell our position about that as well. And what did you want to happen following the press conference?
01:06:23 So, I want some uh uh answers uh that would be quicker answer and clarifying the situation
01:06:31 and how would you describe the police's response to your family holding the press the press conference?
01:06:40 This one
01:06:48 bomb.
01:07:12 uh well I think the police was not very clear at the time. Uh we didn't receive any answer uh at the time. Uh what I think what we received instead of answer
01:07:23 think what we received instead of answer was just an apology.
01:07:27 Okay. In that paragraph, you you you state that lies had been put out and in your your witness statement, you set out the misinformation that had
01:07:38 you set out the misinformation that had been spread around the shooting. Would it be fair to summarize the what you say uh lies information as follows?
01:07:50 That the person that was shot was part of the terrorism operations. Sorry, you're reading which paragraph is that?
01:07:56 that? No. So I'm just summarizing okay
01:07:58 okay what you what Mrs. um Demani has set out to be lies and misinformation. I'm just going to summarize it. So the person that was shot was part of the terrorism operation
01:08:12 shot was part of the terrorism operation that the person refused to obey police instructions.
01:08:19 That he was acting suspiciously. that Jean Charles jumped the barriers and refused to stop when the police told him to.
01:08:30 That Jean Charles had been wearing suspicious clothing such as a bulky jacket.
01:08:38 And again, Jessio said that the police had informed him that Jean had been arrested on suspicion of terrorism despite knowing that he had been shot and killed by the police.
01:08:50 So would that be a fair summary of all the lies and misinformation that you've set out in your statement?
01:09:03 Yes, for sure. And again, you've in this um paragraph you express your anger and pain over the lies and misinformation.
01:09:14 lies and misinformation. Would you like to elaborate further on that?
01:09:20 follow.
01:09:48 At the time when I when I stop and think about that I think uh was kind of like a mixed feelings. Uh I was uh anger, I was uh angry, I was uh upset. Uh and I I
01:10:01 uh angry, I was uh upset. Uh and I I couldn't believe
01:10:32 Uh even now uh talking about this again, it brings me back memories uh about the how I felt at the time and I'm feeling now the pain and the anger uh even like
01:10:45 now the pain and the anger uh even like mainly because I knew uh everything was a lie was mostly related to the lies. We knew that they were lying to us.
01:11:29 Okay. So, even though the last time I saw uh John Charles was on the on the Wednesday on the 20th July, I didn't see him on on Thursday. I didn't see him on Friday,
01:11:41 Thursday. I didn't see him on Friday, but I knew what kind of attire or clothes he was wearing at the time. I would know even though I I haven't seen him for two days. Uh and I and I know he
01:11:52 him for two days. Uh and I and I know he wouldn't do what they told me to do. uh I knew he would not uh jump anything or run from the police or disobey any orders.
01:12:03 orders. So that makes me very angry.
01:12:09 So okay, that's
01:12:13 so during the period after Jean Charles death, did you ever get the impression that the investigation by the police was influenced by racism?
01:12:36 Um,
01:12:42 I believe so.
01:13:08 Um I believe so because even at the time they compare uh my cousin uh with the terrorist they looking for uh uh wrongly
01:13:19 terrorist they looking for uh uh wrongly and then I believe seeing there was a a racial uh discrimination. Thank you. I'm done with this um document. You can come down. Um, after the press release, it's right
01:13:31 Um, after the press release, it's right to say that you went to Brazil to attend Jean Charles's funeral.
01:13:39 Yes. And that occurred on um the 29th of July, so two days after the press conference.
01:13:52 I believe so. Was on the 29th of July. So I'm now going to move on to the next topic which is the um number of investigations into Jean Charles's um death. I'm just going to briefly go
01:14:04 death. I'm just going to briefly go through them. Okay.
01:14:10 So on the 25th of July um the metro police referred the investigation into his death to the independent police
01:14:21 his death to the independent police complaints commission of the IPCC. And it's right to say, but they didn't formally take over until the 28th of July, 2005.
01:14:33 Yeah. Um, what concerns did you have about the how the police was handling the investigation into death?
01:14:55 So it did it did uh we were worried about uh about the situation uh among us because we were taking too long. Okay.
01:15:07 And on the 25th of November the same year, the home secretary approved a separate a separate IPCC investigation in relation to the misinformation that was being spread.
01:15:19 was being spread. And it's right that the second investigation was after your family had sent a letter of complaint to the IPCC.
01:15:29 What led your family to complain?
01:15:56 Uh I can't recall exactly what the content of the letter but it was indeed a complaint that was taken too long when the case was sent uh to the sorry yC
01:16:08 the case was sent uh to the sorry yC IPCC IPCC
01:16:14 um is what I say that on the 14th of March March 2006, the IPCC announced that the first part of the inquiry, so the first investigation known as Stockwell One had been completed. But it's right to say the report was not
01:16:26 it's right to say the report was not published until the 8th of November 2007 as there was pending legal process.
01:16:35 The second investigation
01:16:39 published their findings Stockwell 2 in August 2007.
01:16:49 Um the CPS um on the 17th of July 2006 announced that they did not intend to prosecute any individual officers for murder, manslaughter, or any criminal
01:17:01 murder, manslaughter, or any criminal other criminal offense. How did the CPS decision impact you and your family?
01:17:33 Uh it was uh felt like a bomb uh to the family. I think we felt like it was there's an injustice uh was was was horrible for the family.
01:17:47 Your family um and you challenged the decision um and it ultimately went to the European Court of Human Rights, but you were not successful.
01:18:14 We did uh put a request but it was not successful. Yeah. Um the CPS did however prosecute the office of the uh Metropolitan Police Services Commissioner under section 3 of
01:18:26 Services Commissioner under section 3 of the health and safety at work etc act 19774.
01:18:32 19774. um in your statement and it does not have to it doesn't have to come up um you explain the police lawyers attempted to compare the suspects the terrorist suspect's photo to Jean Charles
01:18:44 suspect's photo to Jean Charles um a paragraph 4.19 again it does not have to come up you describe the attitude of the police during the trial and you state I also see racial undertones here where
01:18:57 I also see racial undertones here where two foreign people were completely with from completely different ethnic backgrounds are deemed the same to the police.
01:19:08 police. Could you could you explain what you meant by that?
01:19:30 complex
01:19:35 infin
01:19:38 Um, my sing
01:20:04 Fore! Foreign! Foreign!
01:20:25 uh look I think uh at ethnic uh and discrimination in racism it's a a bit complex to talk about I think this happens uh in any place in any country
01:20:37 happens uh in any place in any country uh but I I believe that if he has a question about discrimination uh ethnic uh I think Um John, he had like a background uh of a face and it
01:20:49 like a background uh of a face and it was a little bit different. He was not an native English. I know that. Uh so he was compared to this other uh individual that that the one that did all this
01:21:01 that that the one that did all this because of his mess that he was involved. Sorry, she's going to continue now.
01:21:11 background.
01:21:30 Mongol
01:21:36 Fore
01:21:53 uh to my view they have both of them they have uh sorry not both uh they had different backgrounds and then what caught my attention I cannot remember if it was a Stockwell one or two that they
01:22:05 it was a Stockwell one or two that they refer to Jan Shan uh saying that he has Mongolian eyes and for me I don't think that's like that makes no sense uh and I and I believe that they are trying to
01:22:17 and I believe that they are trying to justify what they did to Jean on the 1st of November 2007 prosecution resulted in a guilty verdict uh returned by the jury
01:22:30 uh returned by the jury and the police service were fined £175,000
01:22:34 £175,000 and cost of £300 85,000. Um, how did that make you feel?
01:22:50 So could you repeat the question please? So on the 1 of November the prosecution resulted in a guilty verdict by the jury
01:23:00 and the police were fined um £175,000 and cost.
01:23:06 and cost. So my question is how did it make you feel that the police were found guilty in in this prosecution?
01:23:17 in in this prosecution? Okay.
01:23:33 So I believe you are mentioning about uh the fine that the police uh receive uh for failing the health and security of public.
01:23:41 public. Yes.
01:24:07 Uh, I have to say I was uh uh quite happy because I do agree that was u they failed uh the security and security the health and security of the public
01:24:18 health and security of the public because it was not only Jan there was a lot of people around.
01:24:39 So we cannot forget that J was also part of this public uh because his uh health and security was amongst that. So I think he his life was um was a
01:24:51 think he his life was um was a negligence.
01:24:58 So I I was happy but it was not enough. Um on the 25th of July so 2005 there was an inquest that was opened
01:25:09 an inquest that was opened Um,
01:25:11 Um, the inquest began on the 22nd of September 2008.
01:25:22 Yes, the Metropolitan Police were looking for a verdict of lawful killing, but it's right to say that on the 12th December
01:25:34 December of 2008, the inquest jury returned a verdict of open verdict.
01:25:45 So what was your reaction to to the outcome of having an open verdict?
01:26:10 I'm now going to move on to the justice for Jean campaign.
01:26:18 When did the idea of having the justice of Jean campaign first come about?
01:26:32 Fore Kingston.
01:27:15 Uh when we are staying at the hotel, uh we have this contact with the people that would later help us with the campaign. And I recall that uh thanks to
01:27:27 campaign. And I recall that uh thanks to Yasmin that she was at the vigil at Stockwell and she has this contact with FTO which is uh friend and then they have they they start this contact. They
01:27:39 have they they start this contact. They would help us set up the campaign. What was the just one second? See
01:27:48 See Foreign
01:27:56 speech. Foreign speech.
01:28:28 Uh so then I recall this was the the contact and also was the first time we had contact with our uh solicitors. Uh and then we we had a meeting and the
01:28:39 Uh and then we we had a meeting and the meeting they explained what they could do to help us to to help us and clarify the situation and that that time was brought us like the courage that we
01:28:50 brought us like the courage that we expecting uh to have because so far we are quite lost because we didn't know what to do until then.
01:29:08 support.
01:29:33 Um, so and then we saw we saw the situation then and realized that we had people that could help us and give us legal support because at the time we had
01:29:44 legal support because at the time we had solicitors. Uh, and then we got excited and we saw that we could have like a light in the end of the tunnel. Uh, and because we knew that we had people that were there to help us.
01:30:17 I would like to to apologize because it it brings me back emotions. Uh but if it was not this way, I didn't know how the things would ended up uh the the way
01:30:28 things would ended up uh the the way they they did. Uh so I'm very grateful.
01:30:35 Would you like a moment?
01:30:42 I'm okay. We can carry on.
01:30:53 Can we have a five minute break? Yes.
01:30:58 Yes. Thank you.
01:41:27 Thank you,
01:41:30 Mrs. Silva. Um, we were on the topic of the Justice for Jean campaign.
01:41:39 The purpose of the campaign
01:41:46 Could you repeat again? Sorry. Could you say again, please? What was the purpose of the campaign? Okay.
01:41:57 So, the purpose of the campaign was to find justice. Um, okay. And what was your involvement in the campaign?
01:42:18 So, uh, my, uh, my involvement was as a member of the family. I was representing the family. Um, what sort of activities did the campaign get involved in to seek
01:42:30 campaign get involved in to seek justice?
01:42:36 Um as a um
01:42:48 want to give a support to understand how the system works.
01:43:00 So would be more to guide us and to know how we can pursue the the the issue. Before the break, you you mentioned um other people helping the campaign. You
01:43:13 other people helping the campaign. You mentioned Yasmin. Was that um Yasmin Khan who was a member of the Labour Party?
01:43:29 Yes, I do know Yasmin
01:43:37 and I believe at that time she was part of this party that you mentioned
01:43:45 um in addition to um Yasmin Khan um
01:43:50 um members of new monitoring project such as
01:43:57 such as was also supporting the campaign. Raman.
01:44:08 Yeah.
01:44:13 Yes, I do know him. Yes, I And how was he? Um and and new new project, how are they supporting your family campaign?
01:44:26 I think.
01:44:46 So, Yasmian and Assad were the the most uh the both they're more like uh near us and then helping and then guiding and uh giving information and explanations.
01:44:58 giving information and explanations. So, how are they helping?
01:45:04 So, they did help the way I mentioned. Can um could MPS 65523
01:45:15 65523 please be put up? Um so that tab B17.
01:45:24 This is an intelligence report by K108. It's dated the 18th of April 2006. So this is nearly a year after um was shot
01:45:37 this is nearly a year after um was shot and killed. I'm just going to explain what the title subject reads um Assad Raman
01:45:48 the title subject reads um Assad Raman justice for Jean campaign and email address
01:45:54 and the contents reads Assad Raman is an activist working within the justice for Jean campaign. He uses the email address um privacy.
01:46:08 How do you feel about um an undercover officer reporting on personal details of one of the people who trying to help your family campaign?
01:46:40 I think this is strange. I feel I feel like they are invading
01:46:46 and we can see at the bottom um research
01:46:52 um Ramen has a um a special branch reference number.
01:47:06 How do you feel about them um providing a reference number for someone who's trying to support your campaign?
01:47:26 I feel surprised why they have a reference number for him.
01:47:33 Um, could that document be taken down?
01:47:38 Another group that the um SCS were reporting on, which they say was linked to your family campaign, was
01:47:47 was socialist group. Um, could MPS62703
01:47:53 put up on the screen, sir? That that's at tab B4.
01:48:01 This is an intelligence report by HN 104.
01:48:06 104. It's dated at the 25th of July 2005. So, this is a few days after Jean Charles had um was was shot and killed. Um, I'm going to deal with this in in two parts.
01:48:20 So the title of subject is socialist party reactions to um London bombings. If we can focus on the um last
01:48:31 If we can focus on the um last paragraph.
01:48:37 Um this reads, "The tragic shooting of a Brazilian student in Stockwell troop station has given the SP so party an event to focus on and turn its attentions on its old enemy, the police
01:48:49 attentions on its old enemy, the police state.
01:48:51 state. The SP has printed letters and leaflets relating to the police overreaction and is to run the story as it main banner in its weekly paper.
01:49:02 its weekly paper. Activists from the Lambeath branch have been tasked with making contact with family members of the deceased and offering their parties assistance.
01:49:15 Just one second, please. No, no.
01:49:19 No, no. Okay, you can go ahead. Sorry. Was your family campaign involved with the socialist party um printing leaflets in relation to police overreaction?
01:49:39 No. Um, was your family involved in the story that the Socialist Party had in their weekly paper?
01:49:50 No. Did the Socialist Party make contact with your family and your family campaign?
01:50:01 No. Can we um zoom out and um zoom into the um heading it says handling conditions please?
01:50:14 Um this it says handling conditions um dissemination authorized to C squad and MPU.
01:50:25 Um, MPU is a national public order intelligence unit. Um, how do you feel knowing that the intelligence was being passed to two different departments? So
01:50:36 passed to two different departments? So the C squad and the NP O.
01:51:11 Uh well for me this is uh a little bit strange because that was never the intention to associate ourselves with any political party. Okay. Um could that um do I'm done with
01:51:24 Okay. Um could that um do I'm done with that document. Thank you. Um could MPS62785
01:51:31 be put on the screen? So that's at tab B5.
01:51:38 So the last document, just to recap, was dated
01:51:42 dated was um dated the um 25th of July. Um this document um we know is dated the 1st of August 2005. So that's um a few
01:51:55 1st of August 2005. So that's um a few days later. Can we turn to page five?
01:52:05 So we don't need the first paragraph. Thank you. Plus comments as well.
01:52:15 So um Mr. Silver I'm just going to um read out the first paragraph. So it says intelligence socialist party um dez shooting campaign. Socialist
01:52:29 um dez shooting campaign. Socialist party activists have become closely involved in the campaign surrounding the shooting of the Brazilian electrician mistaken as a suicide bomber at Stockwell tube station.
01:52:41 Stockwell tube station. The party has a sizable South American contagent involved within with the party in London and also has very good connections with Brazil through its international section. The committees
01:52:53 international section. The committees for workers international as a result of this of this party fulltimes in London have been able to get in close contact with the family of the deceased man both
01:53:04 with the family of the deceased man both in London and in Brazil and offer support and advice. in practice you can imagine what sort party actors in London will will be concentrating on this campaign for the foreseeable future.
01:53:18 campaign for the foreseeable future. Um so I want to focus firstly on it says socialist party activists have become closely involved in the campaign surrounding the shooting of the Brazilian electrician is taken as a
01:53:29 Brazilian electrician is taken as a suicide bomber at stock tube station. Um is that correct? Had the socialist party become closely involved in your campaign at this stage? So this first of all this
01:53:44 no this is not correct and then again as a result of this of this party full-timers in London have been able to get in close contact with the family of the deceased man
01:53:55 the family of the deceased man um both in London and Brazil and offer support and advice. Is that accurate?
01:54:03 No, it's not correct. is not correct. At any point in time during your um family campaign um was there any involvement of the socialist party?
01:54:16 socialist party? No.
01:54:18 No. Thank you. Um that document can come down now. Thank you.
01:54:25 Um Ken,
01:54:30 um document MPS07488
01:54:35 2 8 um please be put up. And so that has B6.
01:54:49 This is an intelligence report of Haitian 18. It's dated the 29th of August 2005. Um we can see from the title it says um Alistister Snoo so surname unknown
01:55:01 Alistister Snoo so surname unknown involved with the political campaign arising from the death of Jean Charles Dez.
01:55:09 Dez. Um it reads um Alistister who lives at privacy claims to be significantly involved in the current political campaign centered around enterrising
01:55:20 campaign centered around enterrising from the death of um Jean Charles de Mennez. Um Alistister uses tele mobile telephone number privacy. Alistister is
01:55:31 telephone number privacy. Alistister is an IC1 male approximately 5'11 with a slim build.
01:55:40 Firstly, it it describes um your campaign as a political campaign. Um is that an accurate description of your campaign?
01:55:59 Beautiful campaign.
01:56:31 So look uh for me it looks like they're trying to justify uh what uh like a desperation and trying to like demonize something like a campaign that was going
01:56:44 something like a campaign that was going for something different. Um so this report states that this activist Alistister um was significantly involved in your campaign.
01:56:56 involved in your campaign. Do you agree with that statement?
01:57:09 I agree he was involved because I do recall uh him in some moments.
01:57:17 Do you recall if ever this um Alistister um ever tried to um pressurize or exploit your your family campaign?
01:57:59 Well, I have to say I I met Alison uh sorry Alice there a few times in my life. I do recall he would uh he would talk a lot uh but most of the things he
01:58:10 talk a lot uh but most of the things he would say I would not understand but I I cannot say that um he was putting pressure on myself or on my family.
01:58:23 You've mentioned a few people and we've looked at a few people who were supporting your campaign who were also subject to reporting. Did you get the impression that any of
01:58:34 Did you get the impression that any of those individuals were trying to either pressurize or exploit your family campaign?
01:58:51 I'm going to ask you to repeat the question, please. So, we we've um we've looked at this report regarding Alistister. Um we've also looked at a report about Assad um Rahman and um you spoke about Yasmin
01:59:04 Rahman and um you spoke about Yasmin Khan.
01:59:05 Khan. Did any of those individuals try to um exploit or pressurize your campaign?
01:59:15 No. Did any other individual try to exploit or press your campaign? No.
01:59:22 No. Um thank you. Um that document can come down. Could um UCPI 38370 be put on screen? Um so that as tab A3
01:59:44 can go to page two. Thank you. Um this is one of your exhibits, exhibit three, exhibit two. Um, and it's a poster for
01:59:56 exhibit two. Um, and it's a poster for the public meeting where the family campaign was officially launched. Um, where did you put these posters up?
02:00:15 I didn't post anywhere and I didn't uh uh post publish any of this poster. Okay. So, where could you find his poster then?
02:00:39 So if I'm not mistaken, this was a post that was made by our campaign people to tell about uh the event. Um so we can see that the public meeting
02:00:51 Um so we can see that the public meeting happened on the um 10th of um October 2005.
02:01:00 Um just to assist you, could um Mr. Silva's um statement be put up? So that's UCPI 38355 at paragraph 1.37, page 14.
02:01:19 1.37 at page 14.
02:01:35 Okay. Um, is it possible to have the whole paragraph on on one page? Thank you. Um, so take a moment just to read it for your for your benefit about the um September October.
02:01:53 Yep. So um in this your statement you explained that you gave a speech um and over 250 people attended
02:02:04 people attended that day
02:02:08 scene. Yes. How did you feel um giving a speech at the at the launch of your family campaign?
02:02:20 It it was tough for me.
02:02:33 uh I was a little bit scared to talk in front of so many people but I was determined to speak out uh about what happened to that people on that day.
02:02:44 happened to that people on that day. And what was the atmosphere like during this public meeting? Change.
02:03:15 I cannot recall um I can recall vaguely about the place uh but I remember that was an uh area with a lot of people and I do remember that it was a lot of
02:03:26 I do remember that it was a lot of people.
02:03:27 people. Do you recall there being any any public disorder um during the meeting?
02:03:36 No. Um so in this paragraph you refer to um MPS64162.
02:03:42 MPS64162. We're now going to um look at that document. Um sir that is at B10.
02:03:51 So this is a report by intelligent report by HN um 18.
02:03:59 It's dated the 11th of um October 2005. the day after the launch.
02:04:10 You can see from the title subject it says privacy um public meeting um justice for Jean Charles de Vanzes London School of Economics um Monday
02:04:22 London School of Economics um Monday 10th of October 2005. In the body of the text, it says, "The Justice for Jean Charles Mennez campaign held a public meeting at the London School of Economic
02:04:35 School of Economic LS yesterday evening the 10th of October 2005
02:04:38 2005 in approximately 300 people attending this meeting and then it lists um a list of speakers and we can see it says if we zoom out um Yasmin Khan, Asad Raman,
02:04:52 zoom out um Yasmin Khan, Asad Raman, Bianca um Jagger and Ivon Ridley Um, how did you feel when you found out that there was an undercover officer um at your public meeting?
02:05:24 Uh when I when I found out I was quite surprised and I felt like I had um no privacy and I think was unnecessary. And and how do you feel knowing that the
02:05:36 And and how do you feel knowing that the undercoat officer was reporting on the meeting?
02:05:50 Uh I was told by one of our solicitors knowing that you've seen a document and it's in it's in a report. How do you feel that there is reports of public meeting?
02:06:11 Uh so
02:06:34 I believe uh well I believe this is information to the police. So, uh what I feel is like why why they're sending this information. Um can we zoom out and then turn to page
02:06:47 Um can we zoom out and then turn to page two?
02:06:49 two? Thank you. Um so under research we see a list of the um of the speakers and then um for um justice for Jean Charles dezz um we see there's a a special branch
02:07:02 um we see there's a a special branch reference number.
02:07:07 Do you have any concerns by the fact that that they have a special branch reference number for your family campaign?
02:07:18 I don't think it
02:07:33 has
02:07:53 Um I I don't know I don't know until uh which point I should be worried about but I don't have anything to worry about.
02:08:08 Um we also see um again a list of people who were supporting your campaign
02:08:17 and they also have um special branch references although redacted.
02:08:25 How do you feel that um the people who who are trying to support you also have special branch references? This is
02:08:59 uh I feel embarrassed because they are people of good character. I never understood why. Thank you. Um could that that can come down? I'm going to move on to another
02:09:10 down? I'm going to move on to another document. Um so could MPS64789
02:09:17 um please be put up. Um we're going to So that's at B24. Um so it's right to say um
02:09:29 six months um later on the 22nd of January 2006
02:09:37 there was a commemoration service marking the death of Jean Charles.
02:09:45 This is a set of war reports by HN118 and we know it's dated the 19th of January 2006. So it's a few days before the congregation.
02:09:58 the congregation. Um on top it says ring um HM118's um one one of his code was ringing.
02:10:04 ringing. It reads um intelligence six months coration of the death of Jean Charles Dimenez. Activists will mark the six months anniversary of the death of Jean Charles Dimenez with a short
02:10:15 Charles Dimenez with a short commemoration service at Stockwell Troop Station at 1 p.m. on Sunday the 22nd of January. Flowers will be laid at the scene and speech is given. The event has
02:10:26 scene and speech is given. The event has been coorganized by the Justice for Jean campaign. The group maintain a website that can be found at justice forjan.com. Is it fair? So this is about the
02:10:38 Is it fair? So this is about the commemoration that was going to occur on the 22nd of January. Is it fair to describe that commemoration as a peaceful event?
02:10:51 For sure. Um did you have any concerns leading up to that event that there could be any public disorder?
02:11:00 No. No, I was not worried. And how do you feel that this um remembrance of Jean Charles was being reported on?
02:11:12 Charles was being reported on? Sorry, could you say again? How do you feel about this event being reported on?
02:11:34 Uh, and I feel it's I feel like it's strange. It's invasive and unnecessary. It's how I feel. Hm. Morning also has referred to the
02:11:47 Hm. Morning also has referred to the campaign's website, justice.com. Um, how do you feel about that? Could you repeat again? So we can see um on the last sentence um
02:12:01 So we can see um on the last sentence um it says the group maintains a website that can be found at justice forjan.com. So the family campaign's website.
02:12:10 How do you feel the fact that he's put your website in his report?
02:12:40 So I feel like uh they invaded my privacy. U I they invaded
02:12:49 Thank you. Um that document can come down.
02:12:55 I'm now going to move on to when you found out that um the police were um had surveillance on your campaign. Um it's right to say that on the 15th of
02:13:06 it's right to say that on the 15th of August 2014 um
02:13:10 um you met with officers from operation her
02:13:19 um can can um
02:13:23 Mr. Civil statement please be put up at paragraph 4.9 at page 47 please
02:13:52 you On the 15th of August 2014, I met officers from Operation Hearn along other family members, two members of our campaign along with our legal team
02:14:03 campaign along with our legal team including Harriet. We were told the SCS was closed down in 2008 and there were many separate investigations into different officers. The operation her officers told us that our family were
02:14:14 officers told us that our family were never targeted. um that there were only five reports pertaining a reference to the campaign and that it did not contain any private information or mention the family individuals
02:14:26 individuals and that only one of those reports did not meet an appropriate purpose i.e. was not relevant to public order issues have since learned that the UCL's did provide information on individuals in campaigns.
02:14:39 information on individuals in campaigns. Um firstly how did you feel when you found out that the campaign had been spied upon?
02:15:09 Uh when I found out actually when I was informed I was surprised and I asked why uh me and my family we've been uh spied on this on this campaign.
02:15:23 on this on this campaign. So um we consider the report said the operation her officers told us that a family were never targeted.
02:15:34 Um do you um do you agree with that statement?
02:15:43 No.
02:15:51 um that um that can come down. Um can we turn to so so following this meeting your solicitors received a letter dated the 26th of September 2014
02:16:03 the 26th of September 2014 um from the assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police which you have provided a copy for exhibit 17 but you address this at paragraph 4.10 10 of
02:16:14 address this at paragraph 4.10 10 of your statement at page 47. Um, can that be put up?
02:16:34 Um you state a letter was sent to Harry um wristright on the 26th of September 2014 to inform us that operation had
02:16:45 to inform us that operation had identified that the SDS had retained material relating to 17 families and campaigns. It states that that assistant commissioner would offer a sincere apologies that this information was
02:16:57 apologies that this information was incorrectly retained, not I note an apology for being spied upon. Um, what would you like to say on the fact that police say that the information was
02:17:08 police say that the information was incorrectly retained?
02:17:36 Um I would like firstly to say uh I'm very sorry that this had happened to us and not only to our uh family but to other families as well and this should
02:17:47 other families as well and this should not repeat.
02:17:51 You say that the the apology was not for being spied upon and I will address this later but um up to this point so up to se September 2014
02:18:03 se September 2014 had you received any apology from the police about your family campaign being spied upon?
02:18:17 I see as more as a formality.
02:18:22 You made a subject access request on the 29th of September 2014.
02:18:28 Um and following this, your services met with detective superintendent Neil Hutchinson. Sorry, you have to a little bit. So you made a subject access request on the
02:18:40 you made a subject access request on the 29th of September 2014. Following this, your solicitors met with Detective Superintendent Neil Hutchinson of the police on the 28th October 2014.
02:18:56 of the police on the 28th October 2014. in relation to that request. Yes, I can. Could we turn to paragraph 4.12 of her statement at page 48?
02:19:09 So following that meeting, I'm just going to focus on on the first part of this paragraph. So following that meeting, in this paragraph, you referred to a letter Detective Superintendent
02:19:20 to a letter Detective Superintendent Hutcherson had sent. Um, you provided a copy at exhibit 19, but I'm just going to read the relevant part of your statement.
02:19:31 Says, detective. So, I'm going to read from
02:19:38 um the third line. Um, Detective Superintendent Hutchinson subsequently expressed in a letter of the same date that it was his view that EST officers
02:19:50 that it was his view that EST officers did not directly target the campaign. He also states concerning justice campaigns generally that information was normally in the public domain and had been openly discussed at the public
02:20:02 been openly discussed at the public meetings.
02:20:05 meetings. So, having been told that the SS SS officers did not directly target your campaign,
02:20:11 campaign, how did that make you feel?
02:20:36 uh I feel uh a little bit confused because in a way our campaign uh was uh spied upon. So and I feel like I am the campaign
02:20:47 campaign and and knowing that there has been police spying on your campaign How did it impact your your everyday life?
02:21:06 So it's so
02:21:13 it's so
02:21:25 sorry.
02:21:34 Okay. Um uh I so it's uh this impacted uh so I feel like I'm sorry I need to think a little bit because this is a quite a complex um question.
02:21:46 quite a complex um question. Um
02:22:14 So knowing that I have like it's it's being uh being uh spied uh on so it's complicated because we need to understand until uh which point we can
02:22:27 understand until uh which point we can reach uh to go after what has had been happening since.
02:22:34 Sorry. And then sorry just and then what I have my rights.
02:23:03 Um, so this is make me think like up to each point I can go to find justice or on where my rights go or should I then stop? Should I then be in one place?
02:23:24 So it did uh it really worries me a lot.
02:23:31 Thank you. I'm I'm done with that document. Um could MPS 0526805 please be put up? So that's B2 tab B2.
02:23:47 Um this is a composite of authorizations for the deployment of of H18. Could we first go to page 13? This is the first page
02:24:00 This is the first page um for an update of authorities. Um we can see for operation name is common will and that's page 18. Um and we can see from page 22, we do
02:24:13 Um and we can see from page 22, we do not need to go to page 22 just yet. um that this has been signed by a manager HN53 and is dated the 1st of September 2005.
02:24:23 2005. Can we go to page 16 please?
02:24:32 So we can see the top it reads um operational um objectives strategy in update to renewal cases any changes. Um the first paragraph I'm not going to um
02:24:44 the first paragraph I'm not going to um read the first few paragraphs but it's um explains that HN18 has continued to forge links with the international solidarity movement SISM.
02:24:55 solidarity movement SISM. Um but I would like to focus on the fourth paragraph. Can we zoom into the fourth paragraph please?
02:25:06 And this reads um UCL Commonwe position within the organization will also afford an opportunity to gauge and assess any
02:25:17 an opportunity to gauge and assess any attempt to subvert or hijack the Nessent Campaign for justice for Jean Charles Dimenez. The Brazilian man shot dead at Stockwell on the 22nd of July 2005.
02:25:32 Did you have any concerns that ISM was trying to subvert or hijack your campaign at this time?
02:25:50 No. No, I didn't have any concern. Was there any involvement with um Did IM have any involvement with your campaign?
02:26:06 No.
02:26:11 Did you have any concerns that any other group was trying to subvert or hijack your campaign?
02:26:20 No. Um, did you have any did you get the impression that any other group was trying to exploit or pressurize your campaign?
02:26:31 No. Thank you. Um, as I've said, um, the manager who signed off on this is HN53,
02:26:43 off on this is HN53, and this was signed on on the first of September, 2005.
02:26:49 On the same day, HN53 also signed off on authorities for two other UCL. So for HN 104 and HN118
02:27:00 104 and HN118 um I don't propose to um put them up but sir for your record for H104 the relevant reference is MPS05 26804 that's at B1 page 9
02:27:15 26804 that's at B1 page 9 and for 118 is MPS 0526807
02:27:21 page 10 um B8 um
02:27:25 um So, H53 has signed off on two other um documents on the same day with identical wordings to what we what we're looking at, which is um that
02:27:38 we're looking at, which is um that the other two under officers will also afford an opportunity to gauge and assess any attempt to subvert or hijack the nassent campaign
02:27:50 subvert or hijack the nassent campaign for justice for Jean Charles Dez, the Brazilian man shot dead at stock at Stockwell on 22nd of July 2005.
02:28:00 How do you feel about the fact that there were multiple undercover officers who were keeping an eye on your family campaign at the exact same time?
02:28:32 so I feel surprised and strange with uh everything and I keep asking why
02:28:41 given that multiple officers were keeping an eye on what influences there could be your family. Um,
02:28:50 Um, what would you have to say about whether or not the reporting could be considered as collateral intrusion on your family campaign?
02:29:04 Yes, for sure. Yeah. So, collateral intrusion means um not directly reporting. Do you believe that there was um not direct reporting on your campaign?
02:29:21 or do you believe there was direct reporting on your campaign?
02:29:29 I need you to repeat the question, please.
02:29:31 please. I'll rever it. Um, so we we've seen multiple officers were um keeping an eye on who influence your campaign.
02:29:41 campaign. Do you what do you want to say whether or not um
02:29:46 or not um They were asked to target your campaign.
02:30:19 Um to be honest, I don't know uh I don't have much to say about that because I don't know um how how much the police has acted legally or illegally on this
02:30:30 has acted legally or illegally on this point.
02:30:41 for in his
02:30:49 um and I and I'm and I'm sure this was uh not necessary because everything we have done was peaceful and we respect the order and the law.
02:31:01 the order and the law. Um can um so this document can now come down. Could MPS 076078
02:31:11 076078 be put up? So that's at B27.
02:31:16 This is an SD an SDS note by um HN118. Um you can see from the top it's in September 2007 titled examples of squad
02:31:28 September 2007 titled examples of squad providing um value for money. Um I'm going to focus on um the first page for um the heading Ariel Chiron.
02:31:41 Um just to summarize um I'm I'm not going to read this out but just just to summarize it um HN118 details an incident which occurred in
02:31:53 details an incident which occurred in July 2003
02:31:55 July 2003 um when Ariel Chaon was visiting the UK and HM118 alleges an activist was going to wear a dummy bomb vest in attempt to
02:32:06 to wear a dummy bomb vest in attempt to give Ariel Shaon a hug wearing the prop um which was inspired by a comedian obedient stunt. And then he goes on to explain that um what his role was in preventing this from occurring. Can we
02:32:19 preventing this from occurring. Can we focus on the um section that starts with cost benefits? It's still on page one. So I'm just going to read this out. Um is of course highly likely that if MT
02:32:31 Um is of course highly likely that if MT had carried out um his plan, he would have been shot and killed by a protection officer. Whilst the resulting publicity would have surely been tempered by the fact
02:32:43 have surely been tempered by the fact that MT was wearing the prop, the fact would have remained that police would have shot an unarmed man in highly public circumstances. SS action prevented this and all the
02:32:55 SS action prevented this and all the costs associated with an inquiry and the need to tie up senior service management in defending the organization against the inevitable inevitable negative
02:33:06 the inevitable inevitable negative publicity. The potential scope of this is perhaps best illustrated by the events surrounding the tragic death of Mr. Jean Charles Dimez at Stockwell Station.
02:33:29 Um, just to assist you, I'm going to um ask your witness statement be put up um at paragraph 2.59, page 33.
02:33:52 So, could the whole p Thank you
02:34:10 you um in paragraph 2.59. If you just take a moment to read it, I'm not going to read all of it out. Um if you take a moment just to read it and I I'll ask you um some questions in relation to um
02:34:21 you um some questions in relation to um the document we just had a look at.
02:34:38 Okay. U R W.
02:34:48 U R W. Oh, sorry. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.
02:35:38 Okay. Yeah. Um, so first I would ask, how did it make you feel um reading um reading the fact that HN118 was using what happened to Jean as an example for
02:35:50 what happened to Jean as an example for the incident with the um bomber vest?
02:36:18 Uh I think there's uh there's one situation is completely different from the other. Uh I cannot link them both. Could you just elaborate what how their situations are different?
02:37:04 So I believe one question is about a terrorist that um hugged someone and the other is about my cousin and I don't think they are similar. I don't see any
02:37:15 think they are similar. I don't see any link.
02:37:27 So the first situation when happened John was still alive. So I cannot understand. Um
02:37:38 the last paragraph we the document we looked at the last paragraph focuses on the prevention of management in defending
02:37:46 defending the organization against the ine negative publicity. And then he uses um the example of um Jean Charles as an
02:38:00 the example of um Jean Charles as an example for for negative publicity. Oh, how did that make you feel?
02:38:18 I don't know what to say about that.
02:38:28 Okay. Um could So I'm done. This stuff can now come down. Could MPS um 0526935 please be put on the screen. said as um
02:38:39 please be put on the screen. said as um B12.
02:38:59 This is a um a police um CC command report um for um common will which is H&8. It's um signed by a a a detective
02:39:12 It's um signed by a a a detective sergeant which is redacted um titled quarterly customer comments and it's stated the 11th of November 2007. So this is um two years after um John
02:39:23 this is um two years after um John Charles was shot and killed. Um under key points summary. So we can see um quarterly summary of challenges for EST's asset common 20th
02:39:35 challenges for EST's asset common 20th of August to 20th of November 2007. And then under key point summary, you can see the last bullet point. It says,
02:39:46 see the last bullet point. It says, "Commonwill supplies ongoing coverage of threats to the MPS and its staff resulting from the shooting of Jean Charles Dez." Um,
02:39:58 Charles Dez." Um, can we zoom out, please?
02:40:02 Below that we can see the last um box says detail. But can we go to page three?
02:40:15 Um um and can we focus on on um number eight please?
02:40:25 So this states um as previously reported CW which is common rules continued involvement in no borders MB provides a useful insight into this important and
02:40:38 useful insight into this important and well- reggarded organization. Even if from the inside MB can appear to be rather disorganized and ineffective, their campaign issue resonates across the autonomous left and touches on the
02:40:51 the autonomous left and touches on the on other campaigns such as low wages for migrant workers which in turn creates contacts with trade unions based activists and anti-fascists. The absolute critical importance of
02:41:03 The absolute critical importance of having this form of crossorganizational cross issue linkage available to to desk officers cannot be overstated. And then unfortunately ultimately this
02:41:14 And then unfortunately ultimately this contributes to the larger picture allows um DATE to give informed assessments on a wide variety of issues including likely activist reaction to current
02:41:26 likely activist reaction to current events such as the threat to MPS staff resulting from the Dom case.
02:41:36 So, in the two years since um Jean Charles's death, as far as you're aware, had the campaign been involved in any public disorder?
02:41:53 No. Were you aware of any threats to the MPF's staff resulting from your family campaign?
02:42:06 No. And and how do you feel that this has been put as an example of one of the issues that the police have identified?
02:42:27 I think it's strange and unnecessary. Would you care to elaborate?
02:42:42 for
02:43:10 necessary. value. Uh well, I think this is a waste of time uh because the campaign and my cousin is here present and she knows that we never
02:43:22 here present and she knows that we never had any attempt to cause any public disorder. Uh so I believe like everything is unnecessary. Thank you. Um this document come now
02:43:34 Thank you. Um this document come now come down.
02:43:40 We know that HN18, one of the co- officers
02:43:44 officers had an online social media persona by the name of Boogie Boy BB and he was posting on an online community called um Urban 75. Um you
02:43:58 community called um Urban 75. Um you provided a number of exhibits um screenshotting um some of the forums he was posting. Um
02:44:06 Um and um these are our exhibits um tab A12 to A14. I'm going to go through a few of the polls um for your comment. Could UCPI 38358
02:44:19 Could UCPI 38358 please be put up? So that's um A12. This is your exhibit 11. Um and the we can see from the heading
02:44:30 Um and the we can see from the heading um it says Jean Charles deirez meeting tonight reminder dated October the 10th 2005.
02:44:39 2005. If we can go to page two
02:44:52 so I'm going to focus on um two replies of H1
02:44:57 of H1 patient 18. Um so the first one is in reply to the middle post which is dated the 11th of October 2005. And we can see um H18's
02:45:09 October 2005. And we can see um H18's response at the bottom of the page. Um it says I have to agree that anyone at the meeting had to have been struck hard by the quiet humility and dignity
02:45:21 hard by the quiet humility and dignity of the family. Their expression of thanks for the support during these difficult times were absolutely gut-wrenching. And BB
02:45:31 And BB Um, would you agree that Hayen 18 was being sympathetic towards your campaign in this post?
02:46:07 Peter, could you repeat the question, please? Reading that, would you agree that Hent 18 was being sympathetic to torture campaign.
02:46:26 Yeah, I do believe they are sympathetic. Okay. Um you you you deal with this post at um 3.5 of your statement. Um
02:46:42 could that be put I'm just going to get the page number. Uh page 41, please.
02:46:59 So you say it is strange to hear this human side of someone who had been sent to spy on us by the state. Um BB I think is right. We we did try to remain dignified and we were careful as to how
02:47:10 dignified and we were careful as to how we conducted ourselves even in our grief.
02:47:14 grief. It was good. He could feel something from his soul. He he analyzed something. He analyzed the situation of how it actually was. Nevertheless, it is very odd that on the one on the one hand, he agrees we stood head
02:47:27 agrees we stood head um and shoulders above the activist medium which is the other post to bloggers. But I wonder if this opinion was passed onto his superior officers. Um do you want to add any more to this
02:47:38 Um do you want to add any more to this um paragraph regarding how you felt um regarding 1818 commenting on your um public meeting?
02:47:52 No. No.
02:47:53 No. Um could we go back to um UCPI 38358 um but this time um page four.
02:48:24 Um
02:48:29 so um HN's um post is the middle one and it's in relation to a previous post about how high LSC was charging um for
02:48:40 about how high LSC was charging um for the higher uh it stated 11th of October 2005 and he says um absolutely it was a disgrace. What did they think was going to happen? Did they think that there was
02:48:52 to happen? Did they think that there was going to be a riot? Someone at the LSC should be called to account um BB and then with a angry red um smiley face.
02:49:03 then with a angry red um smiley face. Um
02:49:07 again to assist you could um paragraph 3.6 Six of your WB put up at page 41.
02:49:28 So you've again um I read from the the from the line. I said it is ironic. It is ironic the UCL said to spy on us to prevent public
02:49:41 said to spy on us to prevent public disorder was stating he was concerned the LSC were worried about riots. It is clear he he's stating there was no risk of a right or trouble. I find it
02:49:52 of a right or trouble. I find it disturbing he was there and tked to stop disorder and riots. I am sure from this meeting Hent 18 should have seen that it was not necessary to spy on our campaign or the campaigners who helped us. Um
02:50:05 or the campaigners who helped us. Um despite his views, the SDS carried on. Um could you just elaborate um about um why you found it disturbing that he was there?
02:50:31 Boom. Um,
02:50:44 could you repeat the question, please? So in this paragraph you say that it's clear that he's stating there was no risk of of riot or trouble and you find it disturbing that he was there and tked
02:50:56 it disturbing that he was there and tked to stop disorders and riots. So
02:51:01 So I'm asking you how you felt about the fact that he was at the public meeting and and what did you find disturbing about it?
02:51:10 about it? I find it disturbing. Okay. Um
02:51:34 I dare say.
02:51:47 Uh I think it I think it is and I think it it was disturbing because in in any moment we had the intention of causing any disturbance or or something similar.
02:51:58 any disturbance or or something similar. So of the idea of being spied on uh with no intention to cause any damage. I think this is very intrusive and then really disturbing.
02:52:13 Uh, one, sir, just so you know, I've only got two short topics left. Are you happy to um continue to one:00? I know the transcribers have
02:52:24 transcribers have Let me ask the transcribers. Fine to continue. Thank you. Thank you. Um, I'm done with that. Um,
02:52:35 Thank you. Um, I'm done with that. Um, thank you.
02:52:44 Um I'm I'm I'm now going to move on to the the last topic which is apologies and impact. Um could UCPI 39717 please be put up? So that's at um tab A23.
02:53:06 So this is a letter dated the 31st of October um 2025 from the deputy assistant commission special operations of the Metrop Police.
02:53:17 of the Metrop Police. Um
02:53:20 can we focus on the um penultimate paragraph?
02:53:30 This states, "We note that the forthcoming phases of transfer of the inquiry
02:53:35 inquiry um through to summer 2026 will be critical in terms of further evidence from key individuals, including former senior officers, managers of the SDS,
02:53:46 senior officers, managers of the SDS, undercover officers and undercover officers deployed at the time. In light of the fact that further important evidence is still to be heard, it was considered premature to issue a full and
02:53:57 considered premature to issue a full and personal apology at this stage. Um I know you've dealt with this um statement in your second statement with this letter in your second statement. Um but
02:54:08 letter in your second statement. Um but I wanted to ask you how did you feel after um reading this letter?
02:54:20 Okay.
02:54:25 As in
02:54:47 So, well, so I think it's um I didn't feel anything. I think I think it's like they say like it it was a late um apologize. So, I didn't feel anything.
02:55:00 apologize. So, I didn't feel anything. Uh that's the truth.
02:55:06 Um, was this the first time you received an apology about um, officers spying on your family campaign?
02:55:25 So yes, after 10 years that I am aware of that, yes, this is the first time. And how does that make you feel?
02:55:51 So, as I as I said, I don't feel anything. I feel like nothing happened. Can we zoom out and then um focus on the the last paragraph please?
02:56:06 And this reads um we remain fully committed to engaging with you once the full body of evidence has been heard to ensure that any apology offered by the MPS is comprehensive, meaningful and
02:56:19 MPS is comprehensive, meaningful and reflective of the truth. So an an apology may come out at a later date a later date. How do you feel about that?
02:56:49 Myetflix
02:57:16 So as I said uh it was a late apology. So um and I believe with all the apology that comes maybe there comes with a reflection and I think they need to see
02:57:29 reflection and I think they need to see if this like this kind of uh apology would come with something that would change it and would not happen again. Um thank you. I'm I'm I'm done with that
02:57:41 Um thank you. I'm I'm I'm done with that document. It can come down. Um, in your first statement, you quite in detail explained how the undercover police surveillance has
02:57:53 the undercover police surveillance has impacted
02:57:55 impacted you and your family. Um, is there anything else you want to say about how the police buying has impacted you?
02:58:25 So look uh the police has impactated my life in the last 20 years uh in a way that can be quite tough.
02:58:53 uh when everything happened has been only one year that I have been here. So I never imagined myself on a situation like that
02:59:04 like that even less uh with the police.
02:59:26 So because uh myself and my cousins uh when we live here our intention was to live here and change our lives but always abide into law and order never
02:59:39 always abide into law and order never with any other intention.
02:59:58 Okay. So, and everything happened the way it happened and my cousin's life was taken uh from him the way it was and then the thing that we then got the
03:00:10 then the thing that we then got the campaign to get by
03:00:22 And after everything the tragedy and everything had happened, how the things have been
03:00:50 And I never thought uh in a in another moment that I would never manage imagine that me, my family and my campaign that we like been through the espionage for
03:01:02 we like been through the espionage for the same people that did what they did in terms
03:01:26 So okay I I would um so you can all all everyone who is sitting here can imagine like how the police has impacted my life. My cousin who is sitting here my
03:01:37 life. My cousin who is sitting here my other cousin he's not here that is not here today is another cousin in Brazil and you can imagine how this has been impactating in our lives
03:02:03 okay uh so in relation to the espionage. So, as I said, we never and had the intention to do anything bad neither before or after
03:02:16 before or after was killed.
03:02:42 Uh so during the campaign uh we knew what we're doing and then we analyzed the people that working with us and supporting us. We knew uh what's going on and we knew uh in in in the heart of
03:02:54 on and we knew uh in in in the heart of the people that were working us if they want to do something bad we would not follow uh through.
03:03:05 So the impact is quite big and then it follows us uh until today.
03:03:15 psychological in
03:03:18 in so and impact us in everything the psychologic part of this and so on.
03:03:27 That's it. And how do you feel about the police now knowing that they were spying on your family and your family campaign?
03:03:59 Um, I get I am I am upset about that. I do respect the the London police, but I don't know how how until at which point I can count on them.
03:04:35 Okay. Uh so the police is here to protect us to guarantee our uh we are safe. Uh we are citizens that we need to respect and we have the right uh to to
03:04:47 respect and we have the right uh to to respect the police.
03:04:55 Yeah. But I believe there's something that I feel I feel really upset about what happened.
03:05:13 So and I believe when with time with time allowing uh I I I um I expect to work on that and I don't want to give this like for example for my daughter to
03:05:25 this like for example for my daughter to be uh part of this
03:05:53 Uh and I believe this is uh is is a lesson and I believe the the police learned uh his lesson as well. We we did as well. We learn our lesson and from
03:06:04 as well. We learn our lesson and from the part of the police I wish this would just say that would not happen again. Is there anything else you would like to know?
03:06:15 know? Was that?
03:06:17 Was that? No.
03:06:17 No. No.
03:06:18 No. And thank you Mrs. D. Um I don't have any further questions but sir can we have a short break to see if it's any of 10?
03:06:24 10? Of course. Is there going to be any re-examination? Uh yes sir. There's a few letters.
03:06:35 Um I have to break for a short time to enable anybody in the public gallery or any core
03:06:46 in the public gallery or any core participant to put questions to council to the inquiry which they would like to be asked of you.
03:06:58 would like to be asked of you. Okay,
03:06:59 Okay, it will take five or 10 minutes.
03:07:03 Please bear with us.
03:17:35 Yes. Sir, thank you for the time. There are no route.
03:17:40 Would you uh like to undertake your re-examination now or will it take significantly longer and would you like if so would you like to start it later?
03:17:51 if so would you like to start it later? Well, I'm very much in your hands, sir, but I wouldn't envisionage it would take much more than 5 minutes. It makes just go over one:00, but it's not a lengthy. In which case, I suspect it's better for everybody that you do it now. Thank you, sir.
03:18:03 Thank you, sir. Um,
03:18:05 Um, Mmani, Mrs. Amani, I'd like to ask you uh about a further blog made by the undercover officer HN18
03:18:17 undercover officer HN18 in his persona as Boogie Boy. Could I ask for document UPS 0000003836
03:18:27 Z 360 please? We put up at page three.
03:18:44 Yeah. And I'm just going to read this out to you. So this is Could it be enlarged, please? The bottom.
03:18:57 Thank you. So, this is uh an answer to made by HN18 in his persona Boogie Boy in response to a comment made by someone describing
03:19:09 a comment made by someone describing themselves as detective boy. And it was uh the detective boys saying, "I'm sure given the choice, I'm sure the police would have chosen to challenge
03:19:20 police would have chosen to challenge him before he entered the station." And Boogie Boy uh replied, "I think this suggestion raises more question than it answers, especially as we have yet to clarify what you mean by the term
03:19:31 clarify what you mean by the term deliberate. I find it very hard to believe that Mr. Demen was not at the very least subject to determined surveillance on the day which no doubt involves exercising a degree of control
03:19:43 involves exercising a degree of control over the positioning of officers involved in the surveillance itself. Was it the case that they had the opportunity to stop him prior to entering the station which of course means that the police would have known
03:19:55 means that the police would have known what he looked like and what he was wearing? particularly sign significant when considering the apparent delay in police moving to inform the media that he was not wearing a bulky coat as had
03:20:07 he was not wearing a bulky coat as had first been suggested and failed to do so. Or perhaps there was a wait for an order of of a specific kind at which point I would suggest the stop or challenge had become predetermined.
03:20:19 challenge had become predetermined. If this was the case, this leads me to suggest that Mr. Deimenez was dead before he actually entered the station.
03:20:28 How do you feel knowing that that was written by who we now know to be an undercover officer?
03:20:53 Just one second, please.
03:20:57 Um, I would I'm going to translate for her the the message. Yes, please, if you could. Okay.
03:21:16 Get
03:21:27 a good
03:21:35 point.
03:22:10 Father Jesus.
03:22:25 Don't forget.
03:22:53 Okay. Could you repeat the question, please? Yes. I was just asking you how you felt knowing that was written by an undercover officer.
03:23:06 Fore
03:23:13 blog.
03:23:41 as far as I know it was a blog that he was talking about this um so what I feel it's it's very difficult to say what I feel but I feel
03:23:53 difficult to say what I feel but I feel uh is very invasive. Invasive. Thank you.
03:24:01 So, from everything you've read and heard over the course of the inquiry, including the fact that the campaign had
03:24:12 including the fact that the campaign had a special branch reference number.
03:24:20 Do you think the campaign was directly spied on by the police?
03:24:30 Yes, for sure. Thank you. And you've told the inquiry that the family was at the heart of the campaign for justice for Jean Charles.
03:24:43 We've heard that a lot of people were involved in helping the campaign.
03:24:50 But who made the important decisions? Was it the family or those people?
03:24:59 The family. Who was in control of the campaign?
03:25:07 The family. And what was the objective of the campaign?
03:25:12 Um, justice.
03:25:20 Thank you very much.
03:25:26 Thank you very much for coming to give evidence about matters that are of great importance and of great pain for you and your
03:25:38 and of great pain for you and your family.
03:25:40 family. I know how difficult it is. I'm very grateful to you for doing so. Thank you. Thank you very much for being
03:25:53 We will adjourn until Monday.