The witness, an undercover officer (HN104), is questioned on his sexual relationship with a woman named Lindsay, the emotional impact of his deception, and his reporting on political activists' plans for criminal damage during protests in Bradford and at a BNP event.
00:20:03 Good morning, everybody. Today's proceedings, like yesterday's, are going to be live transmitted after a 10-minute delay. Those with uh mobile devices may use them to uh speak to the outside
00:20:16 use them to uh speak to the outside world about what they've heard in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes of adapt since the event that they're describing. They may not be used for recording or photography. Yes,
00:20:29 recording or photography. Yes, thank you, sir. Could we have up please uh three a UCPI number 38218?
00:20:39 Mr. Mr. I'm going to show you um an extract from Lind's first witness statement. Could we have page 16, please?
00:20:55 Paragraph 4.23.
00:21:01 You will read that Mr. Saraki.
00:21:19 Yes, sir. Is that an accurate account of what happened?
00:21:24 happened? It I have no recollection of that, sir. Do you have any reason to doubt it? I have no recollection of it. Um I don't recall ever saying that.
00:21:37 recall ever saying that. Why would you identify someone as a police informant or a plant at a party? I wouldn't have, sir.
00:21:51 There's a difference between not remembering something and saying it's not true.
00:21:56 not true. I I did not say that, sir. Are you sure? Yes.
00:22:03 seems to have stuck out in Lind's mind.
00:22:09 mind. Yep.
00:22:11 Yep. I can't explain why. Um I do not remember saying anything like that in in her company. Was trying to point the finger of suspicion at somebody else.
00:22:24 suspicion at somebody else. A device that you could use as an undercover officer to divert suspicion from yourself. No, no, sir. I never did anything like
00:22:35 No, no, sir. I never did anything like that. I was present when other people claimed that, but I did never I never used that sort of conversation. Wasn't in my interest to even start talking about things like that.
00:22:47 about things like that. Could we take that down now, please? I want to go back to the course of your relationship with Lindsay. Yes, sir. Did there come a time uh probably in the early months of 2002
00:22:59 early months of 2002 when you broke contact with her for a number of days? I'm I'm sure I must have done because the relationship ended, but um that's
00:23:11 the relationship ended, but um that's not something I remember really. Lindsay's evidence was that uh you had been in daily contact one way or another, for example, by phone or text
00:23:24 another, for example, by phone or text or seeing one another. And then there came a time when you broke contract. And when you returned, you said that you'd been supporting a friend in
00:23:35 you'd been supporting a friend in crisis. Does that ring any bells? I wouldn't dispute it. Um there were many things I said to different people to explain uh my being away.
00:23:48 to explain uh my being away. What were you actually doing? Um I can't remember. Really can't remember.
00:23:54 remember. Uh would you use excuses like this to cover, for example, going on a holiday with your family? Um
00:24:03 Um there would be things like that used. Yes. To spend time with family um and things like that. Yeah, absolutely. Did you give any thought to the impact
00:24:14 Did you give any thought to the impact uh that just disappearing uh and being uncontactable for a few days without an explanation would have on Lindsay? No.
00:24:25 No. Did there come a time when you had an argument with Lindsay uh in the course of which you said that your mother was dying and then again
00:24:36 your mother was dying and then again became uncontable for a period? Um, I don't recall that, but that would of course been entirely possible because my mother was dying at that period.
00:24:49 my mother was dying at that period. If this was on or about the 19th of April, 2002, would that be about right? Absolutely, sir. Yes.
00:25:00 Did you turn your phone off when Lindsay was trying to contact you? I can't recall, but yes, entirely possible. Um, had I done so, it would have been on the advice of my back
00:25:12 have been on the advice of my back office um, due to the personal things that were going on in my real life. Do you mean that your mother was dying? Yes.
00:25:27 Did you give any thought to the impact you would have on Lindsay of not giving her some anodine explanation for why you weren't there? No.
00:25:38 No. or even giving her the true explanation that your mother was dying and you were going to see her. I I thought I did. Um, as I say, this was all done in close coordination with
00:25:50 was all done in close coordination with my back office as I call them. Um, so I would have followed their guidance because obviously it was a a very new experience for me.
00:26:01 experience for me. Can we be clear about the basis on which you were getting guidance from the back office?
00:26:08 office? Is it your evidence that they were fully informed about your circumstances with Lindsay by this stage or not? I don't think so. I I think they obviously were aware of of what was
00:26:19 obviously were aware of of what was going on in my real life and they would just said to me, "You need to break contact with anyone you're in contact with."
00:26:30 Did you leave things with Lindsay saying that you would be friends for the moment?
00:26:38 I I can't recall sir. Um possibly um I had far more important things unfortunately that were going on in my head at that time. A form of words that left open the
00:26:51 A form of words that left open the prospect of resuming a sexual relationship. Again, um I can't remember for sure, but entirely possible. Um I was thinking of other things. Linds's evidence is that that's what you
00:27:03 Linds's evidence is that that's what you did do
00:27:05 did do again.
00:27:09 Why did you leave open the possibility of resuming a sexual relationship?
00:27:18 Um, that's not, I think, what was going on in my head at that time. I I think I just wanted to break off um and obviously attend to what was
00:27:31 um and obviously attend to what was going on in in my family, my real life at that time.
00:27:40 Lind's evidence was to the effect that it wasn't a clean break that you were giving her mixed messages. Again, I can't dispute that, but that was certainly not what my mindset was
00:27:52 was certainly not what my mindset was doing at that time. As as I said, did you give any consideration at that stage to the impact of mixed messages on her?
00:28:01 her? No, sir.
00:28:03 No, sir. Is it right that you did meet up with her over the summer of 2002 to go to an event?
00:28:10 event? I can't remember sir, but possibly, but these things were not of great import to me at that time. You told us yesterday that your mother passed away in June 2002.
00:28:22 passed away in June 2002. Yes, sir.
00:28:23 Yes, sir. Can we go to 38232, please?
00:28:34 It's a UCPI number.
00:28:44 The next page, please. This is an exhibit from uh Lind's uh witness statement. It's the draft of a letter which she says that she
00:28:57 which she says that she sent to you in these or very similar terms.
00:29:05 terms. Mhm.
00:29:06 Mhm. If we have it expanded so that you can see the draft. Going to give you a moment to look at it. Uh but my question is going to be whether you received a letter in these
00:29:20 whether you received a letter in these or similar terms.
00:29:39 If you need to see the first page again, just say so. Yeah. Yes, please, sir.
00:30:04 I think I get the gist of it. Did you receive a letter in these or similar terms? I'm sorry, sir. I don't remember receiving a letter. Um
00:30:17 receiving a letter. Um I think I was shown this by my legal team. Um, and even at that time, I've thought hard about it over the last couple of weeks, and I don't recall that
00:30:29 couple of weeks, and I don't recall that Lind's evidence, as we understand it, is that the letter was sent around September 2020, 2002. Yeah, I I wouldn't dispute it. I just
00:30:41 Yeah, I I wouldn't dispute it. I just don't remember receiving it. Can I take it from your answers that you certainly didn't keep it if you received it?
00:30:47 it? No, sir. No, sir. As I say, I don't recall it at all. Would you agree uh that the terms of this letter are such that it's obvious
00:30:58 this letter are such that it's obvious that Lindsay was clearly very hurt? Yes, sir. I would agree.
00:31:06 What did you do about the fact that Lindsay was very hurt by your breakup? Um,
00:31:16 Um, I apologize. I'm not sure I fully understand. Well, did you do anything? No, sir. No, I did not. Did you reflect at all at this stage
00:31:31 Did you reflect at all at this stage about the impact of your conduct on Lindsay?
00:31:35 Lindsay? Yes.
00:31:36 Yes. And what were your reflections? Um,
00:31:43 Um, I did not like myself very much. And were the would it be fair to say these were reflections you would have been having around September 2002?
00:31:54 been having around September 2002? In September 2002, sir, uh, with the greatest of respect, my mother had just been buried. I'd had to take her back to Italy earlier in the summer. um I was
00:32:05 Italy earlier in the summer. um I was trying to work out um getting my way back into working. So I was not really thinking of those things. I was thinking about my wider family. I was also
00:32:16 about my wider family. I was also thinking about obviously the relationship with my then wife, how that was really going south cuz that had added even more pressure. Um I I cannot
00:32:28 added even more pressure. Um I I cannot say that I would have reflected more more than that. When would those reflect the reflections you have told us about when were those? Well, all the time sir I I mean these
00:32:40 Well, all the time sir I I mean these are things that you know even to this day um and even before this whole process started these were reflections that I would have. Um unfortunately um my character is such
00:32:54 unfortunately um my character is such that more often than not anything that I have got wrong in life um is something that constantly comes back and haunts me as I would imagine lots of people have the same sort of thing.
00:33:08 As I'm understanding your evidence, you're saying that by the autumn of 2002, your marriage was deteriorating. Oh, definitely. Um
00:33:19 Oh, definitely. Um I I don't I don't need fine detail. No sir.
00:33:25 No sir. But can you give us in broad terms the reasons for that deterioration? Um I think it was pressure from the undercover job that I was doing. I think
00:33:38 undercover job that I was doing. I think um my ex-wife was also uh building a career for herself. Um, so we were spending little time together and when we were we were obviously looking after
00:33:50 we were we were obviously looking after a a a young child. Um, I think what happened with with my mother because it it was fairly sudden. Um, I certainly wasn't expecting it um had caused even
00:34:03 wasn't expecting it um had caused even more stress on me and we we grew apart in that period. We were already having issues. Um, but we definitely grew apart even further in that period.
00:34:16 even further in that period. Had you by this stage told her that you had had sex with another woman in your undercover identity? I cannot remember when that came out.
00:34:30 I cannot remember when that came out. There did come a time when you told her, didn't there? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. What is your best recollection as to when that was? I think it was I don't think it was in 2002. Um I think
00:34:41 I don't think it was in 2002. Um I think it would have been later on in the deployment. Uh 2003 possibly um around that period.
00:34:54 Just want to be clear now about the chronology. Sir,
00:34:58 Sir, looking at your relationship with Lindsay
00:35:02 Lindsay and your mother's illness and death, if I'm understanding you correctly,
00:35:11 you essentially bring, subject to the mixed messages, you essentially bring the relationship to an end in around April 2002.
00:35:23 April 2002. Yes. And that corresponds with your mother falling ill. Yes.
00:35:28 Yes. And then dying a few months later. Is that fair? Totally. Yes.
00:35:40 We've heard evidence from Lindsay about the impact that your deception of her has had. She described withdrawing from the
00:35:51 She described withdrawing from the social circle she was mixing with. She's described feeling that she was manipulated sexually and emotionally.
00:36:03 manipulated sexually and emotionally. She's described feeling uh dehumanized and because of her political beliefs. She describes your conduct as indefensible
00:36:14 indefensible and disgusting and inexcusable. Yes. All of those thoughts are entirely understandable, aren't they? Yes, sir.
00:36:26 Can we take that document down now, please?
00:36:32 Could we have a your witness statement 350,
00:36:36 350, page 90, please?
00:36:46 Uh, if we could have paragraph 179.1 expanded.
00:36:52 expanded. This is your witness statement to the inquiry
00:36:57 inquiry about your relationship with uh, Lindsay. I'll let you uh read it, but I'm particularly interested in the way you've described
00:37:09 interested in the way you've described it as
00:37:11 it as a nice diversion. Yes.
00:37:31 Thank you. So the sentence, my marriage was not in a great place and this was a nice diversion and I was able to speak about this to my associates because they knew who she was.
00:37:44 knew who she was. The state of your marriage. I asked you yesterday what the state of your marriage was in May 2001 when this relationship started and you said it was okay.
00:37:53 okay. Yes, it was. You told us today that it was deteriorating in the autumn of 2002.
00:38:01 So you didn't start this relationship because your marriage was not in a good place because it was okay when you started it. Is that right? Yes.
00:38:14 Nice diversion. Is that how you saw it? Uh I think I did at the time. Yes. Would
00:38:26 you accept that it is simply unacceptable to use a member of the public in this way as a nice diversion? Um, entirely sir. Yes. Um, upon
00:38:39 Um, entirely sir. Yes. Um, upon reflection over the years. Yes.
00:38:44 You also talk about it not being your real world. Yes, sir.
00:38:52 Yes, sir. What impact did it not being a part of your real world have on the way you behave towards Lindsay? I think it it was just that um as this
00:39:05 I think it it was just that um as this was so far removed. Um I don't think I gave it
00:39:12 gave it due consideration that I should have done
00:39:18 because it was her real world, wasn't it? Absolutely. And you completely ignored that, didn't you?
00:39:24 you? Yes, sir.
00:39:26 Yes, sir. Was there a feeling that you could do what you liked with members of the opposite sex in your undercover identity because it wasn't your real world?
00:39:37 because it wasn't your real world? Um, I would not say do what I liked. Um, but yes, it it was separate to my real world. Um, I was doing this role. um and
00:39:50 world. Um, I was doing this role. um and this became a part of it.
00:39:55 Did you understand there to be did you have any boundary? Um I thought I did at the time but as I
00:40:06 Um I thought I did at the time but as I say on reflection um no not when it came to to matters like this. Can we take that down now please?
00:40:19 You've not apologized to Lindsay? Uh, not personally. No. Is there anything you wish to say to her now?
00:40:28 now? Absolutely. As I said yesterday, um, I am very, very sorry um for the having these relationships and for misleading these people. Um, it is no consolation
00:40:40 these people. Um, it is no consolation to anybody. I have reflected upon this ever since those years. Um,
00:40:50 I want to return now to the subject of management knowledge. I asked you quite a lot of questions about this yesterday. I'm not seeking to go over that ground again. Uh, what I'm interested in though
00:41:03 again. Uh, what I'm interested in though is did there come a time when you told DCI Dell?
00:41:08 DCI Dell? Yes.
00:41:11 Yes. Can you help us with when you told DCI Dell anything about Lindsay?
00:41:20 I think it would have been at the same time when we had the discussion about Miss Mlan. Um I think we had a meeting. He put it to me. Um, and I explained
00:41:33 He put it to me. Um, and I explained that I had had relationships. Um, and understood that, you know, I could be withdrawn, should be withdrawn, and that obviously it had had an effect
00:41:44 and that obviously it had had an effect on my my marriage was part of the reason we were breaking up. If I'd if I've heard you correctly, you say he put it to you. Yes.
00:41:54 Yes. What did he put to you? Um, have you been having affairs? Did he call this meeting? I I can't remember, sir. Sorry.
00:42:09 I I can't remember, sir. Sorry. Did he have grounds for suspicion that you had been involved in sexual activity with people in your undercover identity? Sorry, sir. You would have to ask DCI uh
00:42:20 Sorry, sir. You would have to ask DCI uh the DCI that. Um I possibly Yes.
00:42:28 Are you able to help us with what the basis for those suspicions were? No, I'm af I'm afraid not.
00:42:38 So if did he use the word affairs? It it would have been words to that effect. Um I I can't remember exact details of the conversation, sir.
00:42:52 And just to be clear, what exactly did you say to him about Lindsay? I can't remember exactly what I said, sir. I recall saying to him, and I
00:43:04 sir. I recall saying to him, and I believe it was just myself and and the DCI in the meeting, that I had had a couple of affairs, that I had got things wrong. Um, that this had had a big
00:43:17 wrong. Um, that this had had a big effect on my marriage and that things were beginning to fall apart now. Um, and obviously I understood and would abide by whatever decision the unit took
00:43:30 abide by whatever decision the unit took about my future. How inquisitive was DCI Dell about what had happened.
00:43:45 It's hard for me to say. I mean, he he took everything on board and obviously said to me that there would have to be discussions and a decision made. Um,
00:43:56 discussions and a decision made. Um, he definitely asked me if this was all over now. Um, I confirmed that it was um,
00:44:05 um, and he, as I say, said, "Well, I need to go away and we need to work out what we're going to do about this." So, I, as I say, I left that meeting thinking that I was done.
00:44:19 What I'm driving at is how much detail did you give DCIDell
00:44:29 DCIDell about Lindsay and how much did he ask for?
00:44:35 for? I can't remember sir. Um there were definitely conversations um speaking about both uh Lindsay and Donna. Um, I don't think he asked me
00:44:48 Donna. Um, I don't think he asked me that much. I don't think I was asked for uh names, addresses, things like that. It was more a conversation of um I have done wrong. Um he was like, "Yes, you
00:45:01 done wrong. Um he was like, "Yes, you have indeed. Um we need now to go away and work out um what we're going to do about this." Understanding that he your evidence is that he didn't ask for names and
00:45:13 that he didn't ask for names and addresses. Did I believe he didn't? Yeah. Did he want to know who these people were? I can't recall. I don't think so. I think he was more interested in whether the relationships had stopped.
00:45:26 the relationships had stopped. Did he want to know whether they were members of your target groups? I don't recall him asking me that. No.
00:45:37 I don't recall him asking me that. No. So, did did he ask you anything to establish whether or not they were anti-fascists? He asked me, I think, if how I'd met
00:45:48 He asked me, I think, if how I'd met them, and I said I'd met them whilst I'd been out and deployed uh with the people that I was alongside. Um, further than that, as I say, I I don't recall him asking me for names,
00:46:00 don't recall him asking me for names, etc.
00:46:05 Did you give DC Idel to understand that they were not activists? Can't remember.
00:46:18 Did DC Idel ask you anything about how long the relationships had gone on for?
00:46:30 He may have done um and I would have told him, but I don't recall that specific question. It it wasn't a long meeting.
00:46:46 How forthcoming were you with DCIL about the detail? Um, I I think I told him that I I had had a relationship with with Lindsay for
00:46:58 had a relationship with with Lindsay for a good few months. Um, and that following on from that, later in in that year, I had met Donna and that I had lived with her.
00:47:10 lived with her. um but that it had all come to an end. Um I do not think he said to me that he wanted more detail than that. He was most concerned that these had been
00:47:22 most concerned that these had been stopped.
00:47:34 Did say anything else? Did he give you any further guidance? Um, I think he uh got quite angry, sir, as I recall.
00:47:47 as I recall. If you want to call that guidance, I would probably agree with it. Um, but it was very uh coarse guidance.
00:47:57 Coarse guidance. Could you expand on that?
00:47:59 that? He was angry with me. How angry? Very and rightly so. And how did that anger manifest itself? Um well, Mr. Dell was not one given to
00:48:13 Um well, Mr. Dell was not one given to uh fits of peak or shouting and screaming, but um he made it very clear in his language that I'd let him down.
00:48:32 Was the conversation sufficiently granular that DCI would have understood that Lindsay was a woman who was part
00:48:43 that Lindsay was a woman who was part and parcel of the social circle in which your targets were moving? I I cannot remember sir. Um it obviously at some stage DC I'm sure will be asked
00:48:56 at some stage DC I'm sure will be asked about this. Um it would need to be directed to him. Moving
00:49:05 on to managers who were not in post at the time that you were deceiving Lindsay.
00:49:11 Lindsay. Mhm.
00:49:13 Mhm. But came later. So people like DCI McKini, DCI Flood, DI HN72, Sergeant Gilbertson, and Sergeant HN30.
00:49:27 Sergeant Gilbertson, and Sergeant HN30. To the best of your knowledge, I'll let you Thank you. To the best of your knowledge, did any of them ever come to know about your relationship with Lindsay?
00:49:38 relationship with Lindsay? Um, from memory, I certainly would have had the conversation with DCI Flood. Um, because I recall,
00:49:50 because I recall, um, at the end of my posting, he offered me uh the we called the nutak course which was the UC criminal undercover
00:50:01 which was the UC criminal undercover course. Um it was one of the problems I raised with him and explained to him that I had had this issue. He had said to me, "Yes, I'm aware of all of that. However, we are talking a completely
00:50:13 However, we are talking a completely different type of deployment um that you would fit the character and the bill for um it would not be long-term. Um
00:50:24 Um I don't cannot remember uh regarding one of the the other supervisors that you've mentioned sir um as to whether we
00:50:35 you've mentioned sir um as to whether we had that conversation regarding Lindsay and by that I mean HN72 and HN30.
00:50:45 and HN30. I don't don't think I would have. What is your recollection of what you told DCI Flood about your sexual relationship with Lindsay? Um, it was more a more of a general
00:50:59 Um, it was more a more of a general conversation. Um, as I say, he invited me in for a onetoone and said that he came from
00:51:08 came from uh the world of the criminal uh undercover operatives. um that he had been watching me and he felt that when I finished my deployment
00:51:21 felt that when I finished my deployment after a short break I should go and undertake uh the NATAC course. Um he gave me the reasons why he felt I would fit into that role. Um I then
00:51:36 would fit into that role. Um I then explained to him what had happened in my operation, how I wasn't sure that it would fit. Um I did make it very clear that I was very very interested uh in
00:51:47 that I was very very interested uh in that work as well. Um and he said well you need to go away and have a think but this is not an issue. This is completely different type of work. You would not be deployed for anywhere near that length
00:52:00 deployed for anywhere near that length of time. Um and that as I say that was the conversation really. Um, that's not an answer that ex that covered what you told him about Lindsay.
00:52:13 covered what you told him about Lindsay. Well, I I sorry, I referred to the fact that I'd had two relationships. Why did you do that? Well, because I I felt ashamed of what I'd done as well, and I wanted to make
00:52:24 I'd done as well, and I wanted to make sure that all the cards were on the table.
00:52:29 table. What was DCI Flood's reaction to you telling him that you'd had two sexual relationships in your undercover identity? Well, as I say, he he said this was
00:52:40 Well, as I say, he he said this was completely different work. He didn't see the relevance and that I should still consider signing up for the NATAC course. Um I think he said you won't get this
00:52:51 I think he said you won't get this chance again. It's well worth doing. A reference to the Nutak course. Yes, sir. Um, as I say, so there was not a great deal of
00:53:02 great deal of he was like, "Thank you for telling me. I don't think that's really going to be relevant with what I've got in mind for you."
00:53:11 Can I move now to your fellow undercover police officers? Uh, can you give me a yes or no answer to start with? Yes. Did any of your fellow undercover
00:53:24 Yes. Did any of your fellow undercover officers
00:53:25 officers come to know about your relationship with Lindsay? No.
00:53:33 Can I move now to Bradford? Uh there was a an event in Bradford on the 7th of July, 2001.
00:53:46 July, 2001. We've got two pre-event reports from you and two exposfacto reports uh from you. I'll take you to the second of the pre-event
00:54:00 the second of the pre-event uh reports. It's tab C97. Sir, MPS 306231
00:54:13 2nd of July 2001. Um, if we have the text expanded. Thank you.
00:54:26 Give you a moment to read that. Thank you.
00:54:56 Yes. So you are providing pretty specific details about no platforms plans to confront the National
00:55:09 platforms plans to confront the National Front when the National Front seek to march in Bradford. Yes sir.
00:55:17 To what extent were you involved in planning of the confrontation with the National Front in Platford? I I was not sir. I did not have uh the
00:55:29 I I was not sir. I did not have uh the contacts with the West Yorkshire section. Um that would have been other people within our group. I I was asked if I could drive um and take my vehicle
00:55:40 if I could drive um and take my vehicle and take people up uh which I agreed to. Um I was obviously told where to meet up time and place. What involvement did you have in no
00:55:53 What involvement did you have in no platforms discussions before going to Bradford about how they intended to behave in Bradford? Um the discussion
00:56:05 Um the discussion from what I can remember centered around obviously uh activities on the day. I think there was tension between the local community um over the national front sort of
00:56:17 um over the national front sort of demonstration march um and so we were going up there to provide assistance and to stop that march from happening is
00:56:28 to stop that march from happening is what I was led to believe. And to what extent did you and your target group discuss precisely what was
00:56:40 target group discuss precisely what was going to happen in Bradford until we got up there. I I don't think we did. I think we were going up to support the West Yorkshire section. If
00:56:52 support the West Yorkshire section. If we look at the last sentence of the second paragraph on the screen. Yes sir. The intention is to avoid being penned in by the police and therefore keep away from any counter demonstration in the
00:57:04 from any counter demonstration in the hope of being able to ambush, stroke attack
00:57:07 attack right-wing activists as they leave the event or area. Mhm. If you didn't discuss what you were going to do before you went, how were
00:57:19 going to do before you went, how were you able to report this on the 2nd of July?
00:57:25 July? So that that may have been said to me. Um, as I say, I would have related this back to my uh handlers who would have then completed uh this intelligence report.
00:57:36 report. Obviously, something along those lines had been said to me. Well, is that right? Is this based on something specific or is ju this just your supposition? Um I would not say supposition at all.
00:57:50 Um I would not say supposition at all. Um we were going up there to assist the West Yorkshire branch who wanted to prevent this from happening and the discussions that had been had were around we might have to get physical to
00:58:02 around we might have to get physical to stop this happening. Now what that entailed at the time I didn't learn until we got up there. If we could take that document down now and from tab C99
00:58:13 that document down now and from tab C99 MPS 306264 please.
00:58:20 This is the second of your after the event uh reports 9th of July 20 and one. Uh if we could
00:58:31 9th of July 20 and one. Uh if we could have the text expanded. Thank you. If you uh could refresh your memory of that when you're ready to have the page turn, please say so. Thank you Lord.
01:00:00 finish that page.
01:00:46 Yes, sir. Can I take it from your earlier evidence that you were present at this event in Bradford?
01:00:52 Bradford? Yes, I was. Were you present uh when the fight broke out outside the pub? Um, from memory, I recall a disturbance starting. Yes. I wasn't in the fight,
01:01:04 starting. Yes. I wasn't in the fight, per se. I recall something there. There were lots of people about and I do recall there was a as I say in that report um I think someone that was known to be from the National Front was seen
01:01:17 to be from the National Front was seen and it degenerated from there. Were you an eyewitness to that fight? No, I saw the disturbance. Um but I
01:01:28 No, I saw the disturbance. Um but I when you say you saw the disturbance, can you help us what you saw from where? large group of people the building um shouting justiculating and then people
01:01:39 shouting justiculating and then people coming out from the pub and a crowd um going in. That's what I recall.
01:01:48 Lindsay says she did not go to the event in Bradford. Is that right? Yes.
01:01:57 Did you see anybody from no platform attack anybody? Not that I can recall. No.
01:02:11 Did no platform ambush anybody? Um,
01:02:16 Um, I should clarify, sir. I'm talking about the London members. I did not see anything there. With regards to the West Yorkshire section, I didn't really know
01:02:27 Yorkshire section, I didn't really know them apart from the one individual. So, I would not really be able to comment if I'd seen because I would have just seen the disturbance I've described um and
01:02:38 the disturbance I've described um and other such like. But from my group, from the London no platform group, people that I knew and recognized, I did not see anything. I heard about things
01:02:50 see anything. I heard about things later, but again that as we all know is hearsay.
01:02:54 hearsay. Did uh did you with members of London no platform make any attempt to attack or ambush anybody?
01:03:07 ambush anybody? I did not. Um I think I was spent a lot of my time trying to avoid the attentions of the uniform police officers that were on duty. Um, as to
01:03:18 officers that were on duty. Um, as to the rest of them, um, there were stories talked afterwards. Whether they were war stories or not, I don't know. But no, I did not I do not recall seeing that kind
01:03:31 did not I do not recall seeing that kind of thing. In the aftermath of the event, did any of the members of no platform that you had been with claim
01:03:42 no platform that you had been with claim to have physically attacked anybody? Yes.
01:03:48 Yes. Um being very careful about an anonymity, writing down the name if you need to. Who?
01:04:00 Excuse me.
01:04:30 Thank you.
01:05:02 of those names. Uh, one is the person we know as Mario. Yes, sir. And another is Frank Smith. Third person is someone whose name we're keeping
01:05:13 is someone whose name we're keeping private.
01:05:14 private. Yes, sir.
01:05:16 Yes, sir. Uh what did Frank Smith say? Um the discussion around that was that we we had these placards that the I think the West Yorkshire um group had
01:05:29 think the West Yorkshire um group had prepared. Um but the um wood that was used to mount them on um were was quite thick. I'll describe it as 2 by two uh
01:05:41 thick. I'll describe it as 2 by two uh blocks of wood which were quite big. And it was discussed that these would or might come in handy if things turn nasty as they could be thrown and being quite
01:05:52 as they could be thrown and being quite thick and heavy would hurt people. And I heard reference afterwards that that is in effect what they've been used for. Um,
01:06:01 Um, you say you heard afterwards that's what they're being used for. Are you We need to be clear. Are you saying Frank Smith said that he had used uh the placards
01:06:13 said that he had used uh the placards for that purpose or is what he said limited to somebody else had? I cannot categorically say that he had
01:06:25 I cannot categorically say that he had said he had thrown them. He had definitely said he had been part of a group that had been throwing them um and had been engaging with the local youth.
01:06:35 What did Mario say? Um, he had himself and the other person had disappeared off with uh other anarchist members of the West Yorkshire
01:06:48 anarchist members of the West Yorkshire group and again had engaged in in throwing missiles at police um as a group together. Um, I think it was sort of,
01:07:00 sort of, and again, this is my impression, so I I I don't know if I should say, but it seems like it had been great fun. Um, launching missiles, what I was told was
01:07:11 launching missiles, what I was told was bricks, stones, things like that. Um, yeah, I I didn't see that cuz I remained with my socialist party comrades. um
01:07:23 with my socialist party comrades. um because it was always uh again deemed that it was more sensible to stay with them.
01:07:29 them. Was there a distinction between the way in which the anarchist members of no platform and the socialist party members of no platform behaved? Um I would say yes there was. Um
01:07:43 Um I would say yes there was. Um to put it into context, I had been deployed into the uh if you like the Troskist leftwing side of things because
01:07:54 Troskist leftwing side of things because um because of the politics, they were viewed as being less chaotic than the anarchist groups. Um however, the advantage was that they worked together.
01:08:08 advantage was that they worked together. So I was able to provide reporting on both.
01:08:12 both. Would it be fair to say that Mario's behavior was quite distinct from the behavior of the Socialist Party members of No Platform? Um
01:08:24 Um yes.
01:08:28 Could we take that down now please? Could
01:08:34 Could we have up from tab C101 MPS306392?
01:08:40 We're moving now into August 2001 and this is a report about plans to confront
01:08:51 this is a report about plans to confront the BNP's
01:08:52 the BNP's so-called red, white, and blue weekend. Give you a moment to look at the text of that.
01:09:29 I'm particularly interested in the words they have no intention of taking on the BNP face to face during the day, but are hoping to be able to sabotage the site
01:09:41 hoping to be able to sabotage the site on either Friday or Saturday night. The sabotage will consist of criminal damage to vehicles, property, and the site itself in an effort to disrupt the
01:09:54 itself in an effort to disrupt the meeting. Can you help us with how you obtained that intelligence? My my understanding was that well um
01:10:05 My my understanding was that well um what you have just said that that would have come from uh the people I was alongside and my understanding was that the actual intelligence um had come via
01:10:16 the actual intelligence um had come via search light or other such local uh leftwing groups who were aware of it through leafletitting and things like that.
01:10:25 that. How specific were those you were mixing with about uh plans to damage vehicles, property, and the site itself?
01:10:36 property, and the site itself? Um that was talked about. The intention was to create as much hassle as possible. Um that was the idea behind it. Um, obviously
01:10:47 it. Um, obviously this was a small group that I was with, so there was there was no way you were going to take on a whole field uh full of
01:10:57 of right-wing activists.
01:11:01 If we move now to C105, MPF 3064,
01:11:17 Uh this is a further report a few days later on the 9th of August 2001 just before the weekend itself uh with more detailed reporting on the planning
01:11:31 more detailed reporting on the planning including reference to vandalizing property, sabotaging the water supply and physically confronting um the fascists with roaming patrols.
01:11:46 um the fascists with roaming patrols. Can you help us again with how you got this detail? Um as I said, this would have been passed to me. Um I do reference um Am I okay to say his name? It's in the
01:11:59 okay to say his name? It's in the report.
01:12:00 report. If it's in the report, you can say. Okay. Yeah. Um it would have come from Mr. Gilman because that's who I've actually put down there. But it equally could have come from one of one of his associates. Um but that that's where it
01:12:13 associates. Um but that that's where it would have come from. Uh one of the sort of socialist party members of the group. How was the water supply for the event going to be disrupted? No idea. Um it was there was lots of
01:12:27 No idea. Um it was there was lots of talk. Um I don't think we got anywhere near it.
01:12:32 near it. Well, that takes me to, if we can take this document down, C106, MPS306469.
01:12:42 This is uh a report uh about the day itself.
01:12:50 I'll give you a moment to look at that, but I'm going to ask you whether you were there.
01:13:24 Yes, I was there before you went having submitted the reports we've looked at which talked about plans to commit criminal damage
01:13:36 criminal damage to physically confront people with roaming patrols and to sabotage the water supply. Had you discussed how you should behave on this event with managers in event in advance?
01:13:50 managers in event in advance? I cannot remember sir. Have you given any guidance as to what you should and should not do in terms of criminal activity there? I I think it would have been the standard advice that we were always
01:14:02 standard advice that we were always given i.e. um behavior in role but not to exceed um you know serious assaults all that kind of thing completely out of the way. Um I don't recall anything more
01:14:16 the way. Um I don't recall anything more specific than that and it reads as if in the event it was a damp squib yes it was sir uh did you witness any criminal damage? No sir as as I say um there was a very
01:14:28 No sir as as I say um there was a very heavy police presence all around the area.
01:14:30 area. Was the water supply sabotaged? No.
01:14:33 No. To my knowledge, we never got anywhere near it. Any of it, not the water, but the whole event.
01:14:44 Thank you. Can we take that down now? Can we go to C113 MPS30652?
01:14:56 This is a report dated the 3rd of September, 2001. It's about plans to steward uh a march about hunger strikers later in the
01:15:09 about hunger strikers later in the month. If we have the text expanded, I'll give you a moment to read that. But what I'm interested in is the source of the intelligence about Mr. Hedley's
01:15:22 the intelligence about Mr. Hedley's reported attitude.
01:16:03 So ready. So how uh did you come to report uh that Mr. Headedley believed uh that they should attack the right-wing opposition as they arrive in London in the morning
01:16:15 as they arrive in London in the morning and then around the periphery of the march.
01:16:19 march. I cannot remember this exact event. However, reading through it um I would have picked this up whilst we were having conversations be it in a pub um
01:16:31 having conversations be it in a pub um or in a meetup um and that's where this would have come out of. Um, as I say, my then thing would be to report that back and my office would create the
01:16:42 and my office would create the intelligence report. Mr. Headedley's evidence was that it's rubbish to suggest uh that there was any plan to attack anybody. Uh, this was
01:16:54 plan to attack anybody. Uh, this was about stewarding a march. Is he right? No. But Mr. Hedley's entitled to his opinion.
01:17:06 opinion. Do you have any recollection of Mr. Edley actually saying that people should be attacked? Other than what I have just said that I
01:17:18 Other than what I have just said that I was present at the meeting and get together. Um, and I do believe it was Mr. Headley that made those comments. Hence, I've passed that on to my back office.
01:17:31 No. Could we take that down now, please? Could we have from tab B41 MPS30737?
01:17:43 This is a quarterly operation review of your deployment covering October, November and December of uh 200
01:17:58 of uh 200 one.
01:18:00 one. Were you involved in these reviews?
01:18:09 Yes. Yes, I would have been. I would have been debriefed um quite extensively. Did you get to see the written document after it had been produced?
01:18:20 after it had been produced? I'm I'm sure I did. Yes. I don't recall this, but I'm sure I would have. Yes.
01:18:26 If we go over the page, please
01:18:47 say at the end, to that end, NP will be seeking intelligence on BNP candidates and supporters, principally from Search Light magazine in order to carry out
01:18:59 Light magazine in order to carry out physical attacks on them away from police attention.
01:19:06 In the period that you'd been deployed up to that time, other than the example you've given us about Slade Green.
01:19:17 about Slade Green. Yes, sir. Is there any other evidence that you have for us of no platform carrying out physical attacks on
01:19:30 carrying out physical attacks on targeted individuals? Um the the Tavern be the one example that I would give. Um
01:19:43 the there may have been others that were talked about but that I um was properly aware of cuz I was told all about it. The cockt um and my experiences uh
01:19:54 The cockt um and my experiences uh around Burmany.
01:19:58 Burmany you described as pushing and shoving.
01:20:00 shoving. Yes sir. of the police. That's what I saw. Yeah. And trying to get to the activists. That is very different from a targeted physical attack on somebody away from
01:20:14 physical attack on somebody away from police attention. I understand that, sir. Yes.
01:20:20 As I'm understanding it, other than the Slade Green election, you're not able to point to any other example of a physical attack on someone
01:20:33 example of a physical attack on someone from the far right away from police attention. Is that right? Um, I did see physical attacks. Um, I'm not sure if the one example that I'm thinking of was someone who was from the
01:20:46 thinking of was someone who was from the far right. Um I was told that they were that they had made farright comments, hence they were physically attacked. But in this context, no.
01:20:57 in this context, no. And in terms of the intelligence
01:21:02 that this was going to happen. Mhm.
01:21:06 Mhm. What was the basis for that? Um,
01:21:10 Um, these were conversations that I had with the people that I was alongside where these are the things that were spoken about.
01:21:22 There is a difference between vocally confronting absolutely the far right fearlessly confronting them and being
01:21:33 fearlessly confronting them and being prepared to defend oneself from them if they attack you and what you're describing here which is
01:21:44 describing here which is targeting individuals for physical attack
01:21:48 attack where that can be done. Yes sir. Um, I was there to provide intelligence um to prevent things like this happening. That's what I did. I
01:21:59 this happening. That's what I did. I reported back what I'd heard and what had been discussed and the source of it. Did no platform go on to target a BNP
01:22:14 Did no platform go on to target a BNP candidate or supporter and conduct a physical attack on them away from police attention whilst you were deployed?
01:22:25 attention whilst you were deployed? No, I don't think so. Can we take that down now, please?
01:22:33 Can we go to MPS 307176 tab C125?
01:22:45 This is a report dated the 29th of October 2001. It's about um socialism 2001, an event held at the University of
01:22:57 2001, an event held at the University of London facility at Mallet Street towards the end of that month. Uh give you a moment to uh consider the
01:23:10 give you a moment to uh consider the report. I'm interested particularly and the matters towards the end of the third paragraph.
01:24:18 So this event is am I right? A socialist party political event turning on political discussion and education. Yes.
01:24:33 Mr. Gilman's uh comments as recorded by you. The end of that third paragraph, Dan Gilman entered the debate and whilst acknowledging the
01:24:44 the debate and whilst acknowledging the need for political education, also made the case for a physical response and the need for a combat organization
01:24:55 need for a combat organization prepared to confront the right wing. Did he use the phrase combat organization? Oh, no idea. Can't remember. Um I'm not
01:25:06 Oh, no idea. Can't remember. Um I'm not sure that I even used that phrase. Were you there to hear Mr. Gilman um make the case for a physical response? Yes, he was. In what terms did he make that case?
01:25:20 In what terms did he make that case? Um well, as as has been said there, um Mr. Gilman would have definitely acknowledged the whole political education side of it. Um but I I don't
01:25:32 education side of it. Um but I I don't know who typed that combat organization. I would have used the term physical confrontation physically confront the extreme rightwing where necessary. Um I I can't give you any information
01:25:45 Um I I can't give you any information about that. It it seems to me as well. Now again, there may be a difference between on the one hand being prepared to go out on the streets and face down
01:25:58 to go out on the streets and face down the fascists. Absolutely. And on the other hand actually preemptively attacking them. You see the difference? I do, sir. But I would also like to say
01:26:10 I do, sir. But I would also like to say that um and again this will probably draw much merment, but I always thought that's what the police were for to keep the public peace. That is indeed what the police are for, to keep the king's peace.
01:26:22 to keep the king's peace. Back to the question, that divide between fearlessly confronting and facing down the fascists on the street, risking violence if
01:26:34 on the street, risking violence if necessary, being prepared to defend oneself from that on the one hand, and on the other hand, preemptively attacking fascists. Which side of that
01:26:46 attacking fascists. Which side of that line was Mr. Gilman when he was making the case for what you have described as a physical response? So I I I cannot remember. Um as I've
01:27:00 So I I I cannot remember. Um as I've said here, I I would not have used the term combat organization. It would have been more we should be prepared to physically confront extreme right-wing activists where necessary. Um I I am
01:27:13 activists where necessary. Um I I am sorry more than that. I I cannot really shed light. Isn't it extremely unlikely that anybody would speak at a socialist party
01:27:24 would speak at a socialist party conference urging preemptive physical attack? No, not at all. Um, this was a safe space to discuss ideas.
01:27:36 space to discuss ideas. That's not how the Tropskists want to bring about revolution, is it? Um I'm I'm not a troskist. I I don't know. I'm not not being flippant. Um I I sort of from my
01:27:49 flippant. Um I I sort of from my readings of of their doctrine um part of the struggle is physical. It would be squadist, wouldn't it? Absolutely. Nobody's going to suggest that at a
01:28:01 Nobody's going to suggest that at a socialist party conference. These things were discussed. Many, many things like this were discussed. You say you're not a Troskist. Understood. But you mixed with them for
01:28:13 Understood. But you mixed with them for five and a half years. Yeah.
01:28:18 Yeah. Mr. Gilman was never going to make a speech
01:28:23 speech at the University College London urging squadish behavior. Was he? This was the discussion, sir. Um it was a discussion about anti-fascist
01:28:34 a discussion about anti-fascist activity. I reported back quite obviously from what's been written up here that this discussion had taken place. Um more than that I I cannot
01:28:45 place. Um more than that I I cannot recall. Um it was quite a dull event if I'm quite honest. The way this has been written up is exaggerated, isn't it? No sir. I I would have recounted this
01:28:57 No sir. I I would have recounted this back to my handlers as per that they would have put it into their own words. Can we take that down now please? Can we have MPS 306937?
01:29:08 have MPS 306937? This is tab C120. Sir,
01:29:14 this is a report 8th of October 2001
01:29:20 2001 and it is about preparations to confront at the far right remembrance day 2001.
01:29:31 at the far right remembrance day 2001. You'll see from the first paragraph that it's recorded that the aim is to disrupt the right-wing wreath laying ceremony and to
01:29:44 right-wing wreath laying ceremony and to physically confront them. Yes. And the third paragraph sets out some of the tactics that you are reporting are going to be used. Give
01:29:55 are reporting are going to be used. Give you a moment to look at that.
01:30:49 Yes, sir. So, you're reporting that there's going to be a fairly elaborate use of Mr. Gilman and Mario as decoys, deceptions on the telephones, and an organized
01:31:02 on the telephones, and an organized attack on the far right. Yes, sir. And from the fourth paragraph, we can see if one does the maths of adding 20 to 30 London activists and 30
01:31:13 adding 20 to 30 London activists and 30 and 40 uh other MP activists, you are warning your superiors that between 40 and 70 activists are expected from no
01:31:25 and 70 activists are expected from no platform and your comment is that London no platform are determined to make it a successful activity and to avoid spoiling by the police spoiling by the
01:31:37 spoiling by the police spoiling by the police meaning what disruption I think but again that would not be my words. Um I think they probably interpreted that I was saying it would have been to break
01:31:48 was saying it would have been to break up any kind of activity.
01:31:54 This event was an annual event, wasn't it? The wreath laying. Yes, sir.
01:31:57 Yes, sir. And it was always heavily policed. Yes, sir.
01:32:02 Yes, sir. Can you help us with the source of your intelligence for the plot which you set out in the third paragraph? Um, again that would have come from a
01:32:13 Um, again that would have come from a planning meeting prior to the actual day of the proposed action. Um, we would have had a meetup somewhere would have been arranged and this is where it would
01:32:24 been arranged and this is where it would have all been discussed. I would have obviously fed that in as soon as I could um to inform the policing plan.
01:32:34 Were you there on the day? Yeah, I was. Yes, I recall being there. Can we go to tab C129 MPS307340?
01:32:49 This is a report dated the 16th of November. It's the after the event uh report. I'll give you a moment to look at that. But perhaps let's do it paragraph by paragraph. Let's look at
01:33:01 paragraph by paragraph. Let's look at the first paragraph.
01:33:06 It turn out far lower than you had forecast.
01:33:10 forecast. Yep. Used to happen regularly. I could only report back what I heard at meetings.
01:33:16 meetings. Less than 20 people. A third of those were spotters or decoys. Yes.
01:33:22 Yes. No attempt made to oppose the National Front March and efforts to locate and attack right-wing stragglers were singularly unsuccessful. Yes.
01:33:31 Yes. What did you actually witness? Uh I witnessed us basically getting followed around by police intelligence teams, uniformed intelligence teams. Um I didn't witness any disorder from the
01:33:44 I didn't witness any disorder from the people I was with. Um, but as I say, the whole part of my deployment was to try and disrupt things like this. Can we go to the third paragraph,
01:33:55 Can we go to the third paragraph, please?
01:34:12 Who were you with on the day? Um it it would have been other members of the London no platform group. So um other Socialist Party members with the decoys or with those who were
01:34:25 with the decoys or with those who were going to commit the attacks. I I don't recall being with the decoys. Um I would have been with other more than likely Socialist Party members and any other anarchists that turned up, but
01:34:37 any other anarchists that turned up, but I didn't know them all intimately.
01:34:46 We've heard evidence from Mr. Gilman who denies
01:34:52 denies any planned use of decoys or phone deceptions and whose evidence was essentially it was an annual event which was always
01:35:04 was an annual event which was always confronted in a lawful manner. Um, I only ever attended one of these, sir. Um, I reported back what I heard.
01:35:15 sir. Um, I reported back what I heard. Um, more than that, I can't say. As I say, Mr. Gilman's entitled to his version of events. Is your reporting on plans to attack
01:35:27 Is your reporting on plans to attack people with elaborate decoy setups an exaggeration? No, I I don't think it was. I would have reported this back.
01:35:38 reported this back. This is what I would have heard. Could we take that down now, please? Can we go to tab B47 at 74
01:35:47 at 74 22?
01:36:03 This is a flyer which has been submitted about um Mr. OAD
01:36:14 about um Mr. OAD and about a march for justice planned for the 21st of December Lambbeath Town Hall.
01:36:23 Hall. My question to you is can you recall whether or not this is a flyer that you submitted? Um, I cannot recall 100%. Um, it is
01:36:36 Um, I cannot recall 100%. Um, it is entirely possible. Um, if I was handed flyers, I generally would keep them and hand them in. What did you know uh about uh this uh
01:36:48 What did you know uh about uh this uh campaign for justice uh for Mr. Olad? Other than what is there? So, nothing. It it has no recollection for me at all.
01:36:59 It it has no recollection for me at all. Well, if we look at the bottom of the second paragraph text,
01:37:09 it says in summary uh that Lambeath Senior Management is using its authority over Alex as a council worker to sack him in a bogus disciplinary proceeding. this attempt to
01:37:21 disciplinary proceeding. this attempt to carry out a political attack on Alex, a prominent critic of Lambbeath management and the police through his employment uh for Lambbe's council is a gross abuse
01:37:34 for Lambbe's council is a gross abuse of power. Did you understand Mr. Oladi to be a prominent critic of the police? I
01:37:42 I I I have no idea who he was. I would have just handed this leaflet in if if it was me that handed it in. I I don't remember it.
01:37:53 remember it. Did you recall this as a particularly salient issue? No. Um it was just literature that was being handed out.
01:38:04 being handed out. And so if it wasn't salient to you, literature was being handed out. Why was it that once you'd read it, you decided to submit it? Um I I wouldn't have even read this. So,
01:38:16 Um I I wouldn't have even read this. So, I would have scanned it, folded it up probably with other leaflets that were being handed to me, put them in my pocket, and then put them in when I attended the office. It would have been for the back office staff to decide if
01:38:29 for the back office staff to decide if there was anything in this. Not Not for me.
01:38:31 me. Do you know what it was used for? No idea. I'm sorry. Can we take that down now, please? Can we have from tab C140 MPS 30806?
01:38:46 This is uh a report uh dated 11th of February 2002.
01:38:55 Uh I'll give you a moment to scan it, but I'm uh particularly interested in the third paragraph on the
01:39:06 interested in the third paragraph on the first page and your appointment as chief steward.
01:40:52 Brilliant. The third paragraph on the first page which refers to you um acting as chief steward for the SP section. Can you help
01:41:05 steward for the SP section. Can you help us with how your appointment came about? I think I was asked I just said okay. Um
01:41:16 I think I was asked I just said okay. Um the whole chief steward thing for that was ensuring that you messaged people or rang them to tell them when we were meeting
01:41:26 meeting places um and times. Um that that seemed ideal for me if I'm honest.
01:41:35 honest. Ideal for you because well obviously I was an undercover policeman. I would report back uh whenever I was told about a meeting place or a time um for an activity.
01:41:46 place or a time um for an activity. And you're at the the center of organizing
01:41:52 the SP's stewarding. Um yes, the the Socialist Party. But again, it you know, it really was quite a grand name for quite a basic job. I
01:42:04 a grand name for quite a basic job. I think sort of chief secretary might have been a better term for it. And the SP section of London no platform.
01:42:13 platform. Yes. The SP section within London no platform. Yes.
01:42:20 Why were you asked? I don't know. I was asked um my recollection is I said not a problem.
01:42:30 I think obviously the I was trusted I guess. I don't know. Did this come out of the blue or did you know it was coming? I can't remember that I'm afraid.
01:42:41 I can't remember that I'm afraid. Did you speak to your managers about the prospect of becoming the chief steward of the SP section of London no platform? I don't think so. Um I think I probably
01:42:55 I don't think so. Um I think I probably would have gone back and had the debrief. Hence this is what was talked about.
01:43:00 about. So when you did report that this had happened uh what was the reaction of your managers? I can't remember. So I think I think um
01:43:12 I can't remember. So I think I think um because it doesn't stand out in my head that they would probably have said okay obviously you cannot you have to remain within the bounds of your deployment. Um
01:43:23 within the bounds of your deployment. Um but I think they would have said that's okay. You're not in overall charge of the whole group. All you are doing is acting as a a steward for the socialist party section providing times places etc.
01:43:37 section providing times places etc. So can I take it from that answer that the duties of chief stewward for the SP section of London no platform were for a period discharged by you
01:43:49 period discharged by you again I can't remember totally but yeah entirely yes how long for no idea I don't think very long because it hasn't stayed in me head really I don't think I was very good at it to be
01:44:01 don't think I was very good at it to be fair
01:44:01 fair what weren't you very good at um I couldn't really be bothered with providing and ringing people up all the time. So I would often get other people to help me out with phone calls or
01:44:12 to help me out with phone calls or sending messages, etc. Um, so I think How do you square that with it being useful for you as an undercover police officer?
01:44:23 officer? Well, I would still be getting told the information, so I would obviously feed that back to to my back office. Things like phone numbers and email addresses. Um,
01:44:34 addresses. Um, not really lots of email addresses, maybe phone numbers. Yes. We've seen from a number of your reports how you've betray portrayed uh no
01:44:45 how you've betray portrayed uh no platform as a group which planned physical attacks on people from the far right.
01:44:55 right. If you are the chief steward for the SP section and Mario, yes,
01:45:03 yes, the chief steward for the anarchist uh contingent. If you are right that this is a group which plans physical attacks on people, doesn't that put you
01:45:17 attacks on people, doesn't that put you in the command chain for doing so? Um it certainly did not put me in overall charge. Um as evidenced there um there were other people who still took
01:45:28 there were other people who still took overall responsibility. Um I did think it would be useful and I think it did prove useful for passing on uh intelligence to inform policing plans
01:45:40 uh intelligence to inform policing plans around activities. Um
01:45:44 Um but again I think discussions with cover officers etc were that this was a reasonable um step to take
01:45:55 reasonable um step to take being careful about anonymity writing it down if it if you're not clear
01:46:03 clear who was in overall charge of London no platform
01:46:10 wasn't an overall leader It wasn't that type of group.
01:46:18 Did you as the chief steward of the SP section of NP plan any physical attacks on fascists?
01:46:29 plan any physical attacks on fascists? No sir.
01:46:31 No sir. Is that because in truth that is not what
01:46:37 what NP did?
01:46:38 NP did? No. It was not my tasking to go out and plan attacks on anybody. Did you carry out any attacks on fascists uh with anybody from London NP?
01:46:52 fascists uh with anybody from London NP? No.
01:46:56 Can we zoom back and go to the end of the second page? The end of the source comment.
01:47:07 comment. End of
01:47:09 End of The source comment, "The council elections are viewed as a gift to NP as they will bring BNP activists out onto the streets where they will be vulnerable to attack from
01:47:22 they will be vulnerable to attack from MP. Police attention is expected to be low due to the nature of election canvasing and therefore the potential for violent confrontation is high.
01:47:33 for violent confrontation is high. I'm having difficulty squaring that with the evidence that you have just given that uh you were not involved in any
01:47:44 that uh you were not involved in any planning or execution of attacks by MP on the far right when you are reporting that it was thought the fascists would
01:47:57 that it was thought the fascists would be vulnerable to attack. Can you help me?
01:48:02 me? I reported back anything that I heard or that was said. Um I do not recall planning or carrying out any attacks of the kind described there. Um if there
01:48:16 the kind described there. Um if there are examples that need to be discussed, I'm happy to discuss them. Would it have been more accurate to say that the view of no platform was that
01:48:27 that the view of no platform was that the BNP needed to be confronted to prevent them getting a foothold and that would uh involve going out on the
01:48:39 would uh involve going out on the streets to make their opposition known very clearly? Yes, it it would be designed to make them feel as uncomfortable as possible and that can take various forms
01:48:52 and that can take various forms but not to physically attack them. It it did not happen as far as I'm aware.
01:48:58 aware. Could we take that document down now? Is that a convenient moment to take the morning break, sir? Certainly. Um we'll have the usual 15 minute break. Thank you, sir.
02:06:06 Thank you sir. Could we have up please from tab C170 MPS 309738.
02:06:18 Mr. Mr. This is a report when it comes up from the 26th of July 2002
02:06:25 and it's a report about the Socialist Party and Trade Union activity.
02:06:33 activity. Uh I give you a moment to look at it. I'm going to be particularly interested in paragraph two and the source comment. That's it.
02:07:04 So looking at that second paragraph, you are reporting uh that there is a belief that there's increasing
02:07:15 a belief that there's increasing militancy of unions such as unison, the fire brigades union, the RMT, amicus turning against new laborm Mhm. that the Socialist Party has activists
02:07:27 that the Socialist Party has activists within all of those unions who held positions of influence and could steer the increased dissatisfaction towards
02:07:38 the increased dissatisfaction towards industrial and strike action. What was your understanding of the purpose of the Socialist Party's trade union members trying to
02:07:52 trade union members trying to uh increase the amount of industrial or strike action?
02:07:59 It was quite limited sir, but um obviously I I came to understand that this was a an entist organization that would seek uh to get into trade unions uh community
02:08:14 uh to get into trade unions uh community sort of groups things like that and seek to build build upwards. Um more than that, as I say, it wasn't really uh what I was out there for. So I
02:08:25 really uh what I was out there for. So I wasn't greatly interested. Did you know these socialist party members who held influential positions within unions?
02:08:36 Only one comes to mind, sir. Who was that? Being careful if it's not a name we've already used. Um, could I write it down? Yeah.
02:09:45 We'll assume that name's private.
02:09:50 the person that you've just written down,
02:09:54 down, was he open about the fact that he was a member of the Socialist Party? Uh yes.
02:10:03 And is it right that generally speaking uh those people from the Socialist Party who were trade unionists were open about their politics? Um I can't can't speak for all of them.
02:10:16 Um I can't can't speak for all of them. Certainly um my understanding was that if you could join a union, you were to join it. Um I think people would have been open about their politics. Yes.
02:10:29 been open about their politics. Yes. Uh and is that because the socialist party strongly believed in the trade union movement? Absolutely. And did they strongly believe uh that the way to get a better deal for workers
02:10:42 the way to get a better deal for workers was often going to be industrial action? Uh absolutely. But there would also be other reasons for that. Um from what I was led to believe from talking, it
02:10:53 was led to believe from talking, it depended who you talked to. Well, that's precisely what I'm interested in. Can you tell us what your understanding of those other reasons was? um to cause issues for big business
02:11:07 was? um to cause issues for big business uh to cause issues for capitalist organizations, local councils um and the running of services because obviously that would create disaection uh amongst communities might push more
02:11:19 uh amongst communities might push more people towards you. Push more people towards
02:11:24 towards that side of the politics towards the the left-wing uh vision politics.
02:11:32 politics. Uh again being very careful about anonymity. You said it depended on who you talked to. Yes.
02:11:38 Yes. Uh who was making a case above and beyond getting the best deal for workers?
02:11:50 The only person that springs to mind at this time um I think I can mention him by name or shall I write it down on the side of caution please? I really don't
02:12:01 side of caution please? I really don't want to have to stop things.
02:12:31 Yeah. Frank Smith. Yes, sir.
02:12:33 Yes, sir. And what did Frank Smith say? Um, he he would talk about his experiences. Um I well he he was a builder when I knew him and he would talk about uh things they had done uh
02:12:45 talk about uh things they had done uh whilst he was involved with union activity to disrupt large uh building sites and things like that um to try and slow down the works to cost more money in terms of contracts and things like
02:12:57 in terms of contracts and things like that.
02:12:57 that. To what end? Um, as I said previously, to create disruption, um, and obviously to run up bigger bills, to stop works, to stop projects getting completed,
02:13:10 to stop projects getting completed, um, which again could cause disaection in the local communities or amongst the workforce, and again, you might recruit more people.
02:13:21 more people. Did he spell it out in those terms? Again, these were these were drinks we had when we were out and about in pubs. If not even on activities, yes, it would be stuff that would be spoken about.
02:13:33 be stuff that would be spoken about. Was he saying putting that sort of pressure on a business would extract more money for them from them for workers? Um, it could have been a part of it, but
02:13:46 Um, it could have been a part of it, but certainly the things that that were said to me, it was wasn't just about that. It was about creating a problem in the system.
02:13:56 system. Can we move to the source comment? The current success enjoyed by left-wing factions within the unions has raised the morale of the Socialist Party activists. There is now a belief that disputes will begin to escalate as a
02:14:09 disputes will begin to escalate as a result of having more combative left-wing leaderships in place. What was your understanding of the significance of specifically commenting
02:14:22 significance of specifically commenting on that?
02:14:24 on that? Um I I I think it was just to say that morale was good. Um that as I say they they felt um boyed by the fact that that
02:14:36 they felt um boyed by the fact that that there were more and more people were becoming unionized. Um as I say this would have been me being debriefed having a chat about these things. I
02:14:47 having a chat about these things. I didn't take a great deal of interest in the union stuff um because why would I um but again my handlers would have committed this to paper.
02:14:58 committed this to paper. Can we take that down now please? Can we go to tab C175 MPS 3098.
02:15:11 Before we do that, I'm told that the name that you um handed up before is open. We can say it was Glenn Kelly.
02:15:26 Moving on to this document. This is about Mr. Frank Smith. Uh dated the 29th of August. reads, "Frank Smith, leading member of
02:15:38 reads, "Frank Smith, leading member of No Platform, has apparently been offered an outofc court settlement of £10,000 by the Metropolitan Police over his attempt to sue the organization for unlawful
02:15:50 to sue the organization for unlawful arrest." Yes. Your comment. Smith is believed to be very happy with the offer and is likely to accept. He is seen as a hero for his actions when arrested and
02:16:01 hero for his actions when arrested and for his subsequent acquitt and now this offer. Much of the money will be kept to maintain Smith's lavish lifestyle, but he will also make a sizable donation to the Socialist Party and NP's
02:16:15 the Socialist Party and NP's coffers.
02:16:17 coffers. That source comment was it elicited as a result of a debriefing of the kind you were just describing? Yes, this would have been uh talking to Mr. Smith uh
02:16:29 have been uh talking to Mr. Smith uh probably in a social setting. And what I was driving at is you've spoken to Mr. Smith in a social setting. You are then debriefed by your managers.
02:16:41 You are then debriefed by your managers. Yes. Yes, sir. Can you help us with whether you volunteered this to them or whether the detail in the source comment was something they elicited from you? Um,
02:16:53 something they elicited from you? Um, in terms of the source comment, um, I feel it would probably have been elicited from me. Again, I I don't think I would have written it quite like that, but but it would have come from asking
02:17:05 but but it would have come from asking me to expand on things. Yes. I'm not sure I would have said Mr. Smith had a lavish lifestyle. I think I would have said he he enjoyed socializing and
02:17:18 have said he he enjoyed socializing and all the rest of it.
02:17:23 Why did you report this information at all?
02:17:27 all? Um report everything was generally um the the guide. So we would sorry no specific reason. No no it would have just been amongst
02:17:38 No no it would have just been amongst other things that I was reporting on. How interested were your managers in this?
02:17:46 I don't I I don't recall them being overly interested. So, I would say probably not very. Can I take it from the fact it's been written up and reported that there was no criticism of you for reporting this?
02:17:58 no criticism of you for reporting this? Uh, no. I don't recall any criticism? No, sir.
02:18:01 No, sir. Did they tell you anything about what they were going to do with it? Uh, no.
02:18:08 Did you ever address your mind to whether it was appropriate for an undercover police officer uh in the service of the Metropolitan Police Service should report on the ongoing
02:18:23 Service should report on the ongoing settlement negotiations between the Metropolitan Police and a member of the public? I'm afraid I didn't say no.
02:18:35 I'm afraid I didn't say no. Did it occur to you uh that knowing the state of mind of someone in negotiations
02:18:46 state of mind of someone in negotiations over a settlement would be very valuable to those who were trying to pay Mr. Smith as little money as possible from the Metropolitan Police Service?
02:18:58 the Metropolitan Police Service? No, it did not, sir. And I I don't know where this ended up. I, as I say, I was debriefed and that's where this would have come about. Did it strike you that this uh
02:19:09 Did it strike you that this uh information could be misused to Mr. Smith's detriment?
02:19:18 No, sir. Not at the time.
02:19:23 I wasn't thinking like that. I was just reporting back um everything that I'd heard over the space of a few days. um as we were debriefed.
02:19:35 And can I take it from your answers to me so far you certainly weren't told never to do this again? No, I don't recall ever being told that. Can we take that down now, please? Can
02:19:47 Can we take that down now, please? Can we have up from tab B61 uh the document ending 10203?
02:20:01 This is a file note. It bears um Michael Dell's initials at the bottom. It's dated the 13th of
02:20:12 at the bottom. It's dated the 13th of September, 2002. Mhm. So, three issues were discussed the previous day at West and uh the initials
02:20:25 previous day at West and uh the initials there would I be right Kraggy Island is a reference to CI reference to Craggy Island U.
02:20:31 Island U. Uh Steve Beiel's Michael Dell. Mhm.
02:20:36 Mhm. Paragraph one, moving in with weary A. And the A stands for the activist we are calling Alfred. Okay. Craggy Island will try to avoid doing
02:20:48 Craggy Island will try to avoid doing so, but he and his wife are prepared for it if necessary. Y SB and MD reiterated their concerns about the effects on family life and it
02:21:01 about the effects on family life and it was agreed that should such a move occur, it would be reviewed after no more than six months with those effects the overriding
02:21:13 the overriding concern. Craggy Island was pleased that A was now talking about moving in with the Belgian activist P. Further other wearies are telling Craggy Island that
02:21:24 wearies are telling Craggy Island that moving in with a would not work.
02:21:31 Just to explore that a little bit. In what circumstances had you come to be discussing with your managers the possibility of moving in
02:21:43 managers the possibility of moving in with Alfred? Um I can't remember exactly. I I think one of the uh drivers for that obviously I lived in
02:21:55 uh drivers for that obviously I lived in private rented accommodation at that time in uh Hackne I think it was Mayor Street. Um obviously that cost an awful lot. um these groups of of people were
02:22:08 lot. um these groups of of people were would watch out for each other and I think it became known how much I was having to spend a month and um they came up with ideas to try and
02:22:21 they came up with ideas to try and assist me. uh and one of those was uh moving in with a um terms of P the Belgian activist I I
02:22:32 um terms of P the Belgian activist I I can't remember who that is that may not matter okay
02:22:40 the fact that you are having a meeting with your managers about accommodation can I take it that managers did take an interest in where you were living and
02:22:52 interest in where you were living and who you were living with. I I think so. Yes. Um obviously um I I don't think I saw this note at the time, but they obviously were interested.
02:23:04 but they obviously were interested. Says in the first line, he and his wife are prepared for it if necessary. Yep. Can I take it from that that you had spoken to your then wife about the
02:23:18 had spoken to your then wife about the possibility of living with a male activist?
02:23:24 activist? Yes. Um it's written there. So obviously I think it was discussed. Can you help us uh with uh the gist of the conversation you had with your wife
02:23:35 the conversation you had with your wife and her attitude to that? I'm afraid I can't. I don't don't remember it. I just am reading it there. Can we take it that there was at least
02:23:46 Can we take it that there was at least some concern that it might affect family life? It
02:23:50 life? It indeed. I mean, this these were regular conversations. This is part of what drove us apart. My my sort of working conditions and and the way I carried out
02:24:01 conditions and and the way I carried out my work.
02:24:04 my work. And can I take it from this document uh that your managers, although they might have had
02:24:12 have had some caution in permitting you to live with an activist, were certainly not ruling it out.
02:24:22 out. Absolutely. They Yeah. Did they discuss with you pros and cons? Not that I can remember. No, I think it
02:24:33 Not that I can remember. No, I think it it was a discussion. I'm sure there would have been something, but I don't remember that. Can you recall now what their attitude was?
02:24:43 was? Um, I I think with all of these things, it was a very much an attitude of how do we facilitate this? What are the risks? How can we move it on? If this works as part of your legend, why not give it a
02:24:56 part of your legend, why not give it a go? Um, but again, you know, you'd have to direct that to them really, but that was my impression. If we move on to paragraph two,
02:25:12 says link to the above, moving out of FP's flat. It's FP a reference to fever pitch, the code name for the officer we call HN77.
02:25:27 Yes. Uh and it's right, isn't it, that you shared a flat with her for a period? I did. Yes. So, does that refresh your memory that at that by this stage you weren't living
02:25:39 at that by this stage you weren't living on your own in May Street? You were living with HN77.
02:25:47 Um, yes, it it does. Yes, sir. And was that in Homon? I believe so. Yes. goes on, at the demonstration on the 11th uh at Finsbury Park Moss, Craggy
02:25:58 11th uh at Finsbury Park Moss, Craggy Island and Fever Pitch introduced each other's wearies, and it was plain that the anarchists and no platform were united in a common cause, and perhaps more importantly, a common pursuit of
02:26:10 more importantly, a common pursuit of that cause by action on the streets. Allesio chatted to NP for about 20 minutes. Both Craggy Island and Fever Pitch felt comfortable for further
02:26:21 Pitch felt comfortable for further discussion with BG and FP says linked to the above moving out of FP's flat. In what circumstances had moving out of
02:26:35 In what circumstances had moving out of FP's flat
02:26:37 FP's flat come up?
02:26:39 come up? I can't remember, sir. I I don't know if it was uh from FP um or if it was from the back office. Um I can't provide any information as to
02:26:51 I can't provide any information as to reasons for that. Was there any reason other than the one you've given earlier, namely that the activists that you were mixing with wanted to help you secure cheaper
02:27:02 wanted to help you secure cheaper accommodation? I mean that is the overriding thing that I remember. Um there was a um to be fair a great sort of desire to try and assist where possible to save money.
02:27:15 where possible to save money. The flat you were sharing with HN77, how many bedrooms did that have? Two, possibly three. Can you recall what the rent was?
02:27:27 Can you recall what the rent was? No, sir.
02:27:28 No, sir. Any idea at all? No.
02:27:31 No. Um, I can recall uh the place I was in previously in May Street. Um, I cannot recall this. Was that a one-bedroom flat? That was. Yes. And what was the rent on that?
02:27:42 And what was the rent on that? Uh, it was around £700 a month. £700 a month for a one-bedroom flat in May Street. Yeah.
02:27:53 And the reality which we'll come to in more detail in a moment is that in the result you actually moved in with Donna Mlan.
02:28:01 Mlan. Yeah. I'm not sure exactly when that was a little bit later. We'll come to that but
02:28:05 but okay
02:28:06 okay a few months later. Um yeah. Um but I think this was separate to that as I say because it it was a few months apart. I think I was trying to
02:28:15 trying to um obviously sort out my accommodation. Um it I don't know if it's of resistance but what I do remember is in discussions with my back office um being the single
02:28:27 with my back office um being the single male that was looking for what I describe sofa surfing or temporary accommodation was viewed as quite a good uh legend building aspect as you went along
02:28:39 building aspect as you went along because I remember having those conversations um as part of the overall deployment. Did you live with HN77 until the time when you moved in with
02:28:51 until the time when you moved in with Donna Mlan? I I think so. Yes.
02:28:56 Can we take that document down now? Moving to Donna Mlan. Her recollection of first meeting you
02:29:08 Her recollection of first meeting you was an occasion on which she says that you and Mr. Gilman brought some boxes to her to a flat she was then living in,
02:29:19 her to a flat she was then living in, right,
02:29:19 right, to help her move. Can you recall that? Um,
02:29:25 Um, I I would I would agree with that. Um, I do not remember her at that time, but I recall Mr. Gilman. I had a vehicle um and I was asked to help out with moving
02:29:36 and I was asked to help out with moving stuff.
02:29:41 If we move on now to what I might call your first proper meeting then. Yes sir.
02:29:46 Yes sir. Was that at a stop the war coalition demonstration on the 28th of September 2002?
02:29:54 2002? Yes, that sounds right.
02:29:59 And if we bring up uh 39, it's a UCPI number 39714.
02:30:10 This is the book Small Town Girl written by Donna Mlan. If we can go to page 64 please.
02:30:27 Uh we see in the second paragraph on that page
02:30:38 the background uh to that demonstration. Mhm.
02:30:41 Mhm. Is that right?
02:30:51 Yes. And is it right that she was a steward on that march? Uh, entirely possible. I I didn't don't recall her, but entirely possible.
02:31:03 don't recall her, but entirely possible. Yes.
02:31:04 Yes. And were you? Uh, yes.
02:31:07 Uh, yes. And there came a time uh that you if we can take that down now. Uh we there came a time when you you met. Yes. Uh later on much later in the
02:31:18 Yes. Uh later on much later in the evening.
02:31:20 evening. Did you meet her during the day with Mr. Gilman?
02:31:23 Gilman? We might have done but uh I didn't pay that any attention at the time.
02:31:30 And you say that you socialized in the evening. Is it right uh that there was a meal after the demonstration attended by uh quite a
02:31:42 demonstration attended by uh quite a number of people and both you and Donna Mlan were there? I wouldn't dispute that. Um what's your recollection? Um we would have eaten definitely. Yes,
02:31:54 Um we would have eaten definitely. Yes, sir. Um but I can't remember where that was. Um I remember um much later in the evening ended up drinking around sort of the environments of I think it was King's Cross.
02:32:07 of I think it was King's Cross. That's my recollection. So
02:32:12 So some socializing in company. Yeah.
02:32:15 Yeah. At a restaurant. Yep.
02:32:18 Yep. Drinking near King's Cross. Yeah. Is that the two of you or in company? No. No. It was a a large group of us in company. And
02:32:30 And did it end with uh you uh sleeping with Donna Mlan? Yes, sir.
02:32:39 Yes, sir. And where did that happen? I think it was um at her address. And who initiated it?
02:32:52 I don't think it was me. However, I am not going to confront or argue with this. Um, it had been a long day. Um,
02:33:03 this. Um, it had been a long day. Um, there had been an awful lot of alcohol consumed
02:33:08 consumed and there we are.
02:33:12 You say there we are. I'd like you to to take us through how you go from not paying any attention
02:33:23 how you go from not paying any attention to Donna Mlan during the day to ending up in bed with her. Um
02:33:30 Um what is what happened? I was performing a stewarding role. Um so we were divided up. Um so it wasn't that I was not paying attention. Um I'm
02:33:41 that I was not paying attention. Um I'm sure we said hello. I said hello to lots of people that day. Um it it was only afterwards in the actual um socializing bit of it where I would have talked to
02:33:53 bit of it where I would have talked to her.
02:33:56 So you must have got on well with her during that evening. Yeah, absolutely. And how did that come about? Well, I can't remember, sir. We, as I say, we were drinking an awful lot. I'm
02:34:07 say, we were drinking an awful lot. I'm I'm saying me personally. I'm not talking about other people. I didn't didn't count. And would you have gathered during the conversation that she uh was a trade
02:34:18 conversation that she uh was a trade unionist?
02:34:20 unionist? That No, I don't remember that. No. That she'd stewarded on the march. Oh, yeah. Definitely that because as I say, um I'm sure we would have been introduced cuz all of the stewards would
02:34:31 introduced cuz all of the stewards would have been introduced to each other. When did you find out that she was a trade unionist? I can't remember. Presumably you did at some point.
02:34:42 Presumably you did at some point. Yeah, but I'm I'm not sure if it was that night or on other occasions that she was a union representative. No, I didn't know that. Did you know which union she was a
02:34:53 Did you know which union she was a member of? No, I'm afraid not. You sure? In a relationship that lasted approximately 2 years? Absolutely. Um, she might have told me, but it wasn't important to me.
02:35:07 Why did you enter into a sexual relationship with Donna Mlan? Um I I think at the time um and I'd only just come back in uh to my deployment um
02:35:20 just come back in uh to my deployment um following sort of periods spent in Italy and dealing with the aftermath of my mother's death. Um when I reflect on it, I I was extremely vulnerable as I've
02:35:32 I I was extremely vulnerable as I've said. Um myself and and my wife were becoming estranged from each other. Um and
02:35:43 and unfortunately um
02:35:47 um on that night I feel I was very very drunk and we we slept together and I liked it.
02:35:57 liked it. Donna Mlan was a friend of Dan Gilman, wasn't she? Yes.
02:36:01 Yes. And of Joe Batty. Um, I knew that she had definitely worked with Dan and I think Joe in a previous job somewhere. And as we've seen, you were reporting
02:36:13 And as we've seen, you were reporting extensively on both of those men. Yes, I was. To what extent did the fact that Donna Mlan was moving in the same circles as
02:36:24 Mlan was moving in the same circles as your targets influence your decision to sleep with Donna Mlan? Um it it it did not come into it for me at that stage. Um
02:36:35 at that stage. Um I think I discovered that they no longer worked in the same environment together. Um it it wasn't about that. Um I found her attractive. Um and I let myself
02:36:50 her attractive. Um and I let myself down. I I was, you know, vulnerable stage in me life and it just seemed like a good idea really. Obviously on reflection I understand just quite how
02:37:02 reflection I understand just quite how bad an idea that was. You've put forward the re the then recent death of your mother. Yeah.
02:37:09 Yeah. And the deteriorating stage of your marriage as reasons Yes sir. Uh for
02:37:16 Uh for failing to restrain yourself. Neither of those reasons applied when you started the relationship with Lindsay.
02:37:26 Lindsay. No, they were different. Why should we accept that those reasons made the all the difference when it came to Donna Mlan?
02:37:37 to Donna Mlan? I I can't answer why you should accept it, sir. I am just saying that that was my state of mind at that time.
02:37:48 Why didn't you seek solace after the death of your mother from your wife? Because I I wanted to get back into work as soon as I could. Um because I felt
02:37:59 as soon as I could. Um because I felt that that would take my mind off of what what had taken place with my mother. Did your wife provide you with any solace in the wake of your mother's death?
02:38:10 death? I think yes, of course she did. Of course she tried.
02:38:16 and solace from your wider family. Um, yes. However, my sister was going through her own grieving process. Um, and again, because of the work I was
02:38:29 and again, because of the work I was doing and because I wanted to continue in that role, there was not a lot of opportunity to see them and
02:38:38 and support from your managers. Um, I sat down with my managers. Um, I think I was essentially told,
02:38:49 think I was essentially told, "What do you want to do?" Um, and I said, "I want to keep going." Um, I want to carry on proving myself in this job. Um, at no stage did they say, "Well,
02:39:00 Um, at no stage did they say, "Well, we're not going to let you. We're withdrawing you." Um, it was good stuff. We're glad to hear it. Were they compassionate about the death of your mother? Yeah, I think everyone would be
02:39:12 Yeah, I think everyone would be compassionate. Um, yeah, I don't recall them sort of particularly sitting me down or anything, but I think they asked me what the,
02:39:22 the, you know, what did I want to do? And I told them and they said, "Okay, do you think you can handle it?" Um there were definitely conversations about opening
02:39:33 definitely conversations about opening up to uh the people I was alongside the target group um and being open and and uh clear with them about what had taken place and obviously that I was in the uh
02:39:45 place and obviously that I was in the uh mourning process and I was feeling very bererieved um and they said if you can accept that then we're happy for you to continue. Um and that that's what I did. Did you
02:39:58 and that that's what I did. Did you confide in your managers at this stage that your marriage was in trouble? I don't think so. No. Did you confide in your wider family
02:40:09 Did you confide in your wider family that your marriage was in trouble? I might have mentioned it to my sister, but
02:40:16 but you could have done you could have told your managers if you'd needed their support about that, couldn't you? Uh, yes. But that to me would have
02:40:27 Uh, yes. But that to me would have probably ended up with me being withdrawn. Is that why you didn't tell them? Um, yes. I I stupidly still wanted to prove that I was capable of doing the
02:40:38 prove that I was capable of doing the role
02:40:42 cuz the reality is you had numerous sources of either actual or potential support
02:40:50 support uh to assist you with the difficulties you were having in your private life. without the need uh to form an intimate sexual relationship with Donna Mlan, didn't you?
02:41:01 didn't you? Yes, sir.
02:41:02 Yes, sir. And that it is not an acceptable excuse to deceive a woman into a sexual relationship, is it? No.
02:41:14 No. again looking back and it was not as you uh are getting into bed with Donna Mlan. Are you giving any thought
02:41:27 Donna Mlan. Are you giving any thought to the fact that you are an undercover police officer? Not at that time. No, I don't believe so. Did you give any thought to whether
02:41:40 so. Did you give any thought to whether or not if Donna Mlan had known that you were detective inspector, sorry, detective constable Carlo Saraki.
02:41:54 detective constable Carlo Saraki. Uh, she would have consented to sex. I did not give any thought to that. Um, you should have done, shouldn't you? Yes, sir.
02:42:04 Yes, sir. And if you had addressed your mind to that question, the answer is she would not have consented had she known who and
02:42:15 not have consented had she known who and what you were. I cannot speak for Miss McClan. Sir, she's very clear that she wouldn't have done.
02:42:24 done. Absolutely.
02:42:29 You should have addressed your mind to it and if you'd had any doubts whatsoever, you should not have proceeded. I agreed. Yep. And in fact, you should not have done it
02:42:40 And in fact, you should not have done it at all.
02:42:41 at all. Agreed. Um, and by
02:42:46 and by going to bed with her, you deprived her of bodily autonomy, by which I mean the ability to make an informed choice about consent. agreed to
02:42:57 informed choice about consent. agreed to her again on reflection. Yes. Did you give any thought to your wife at this stage? Um I did subsequently um as I say our
02:43:09 Um I did subsequently um as I say our relationship was quite fractured at that time and I carried on. Can I take it that from that answer that you didn't give her any thought before
02:43:20 you didn't give her any thought before you slept with Donna Mlan? Uh not on that first occasion. know how to say I acted upon impulse.
02:43:32 Did you discuss contraception before having sex? I can't remember on that first occasion. I I think so. Um Donna Mlan's evidence is that you did
02:43:44 Donna Mlan's evidence is that you did discuss it and she told you that she was on the contraceptive pill. Again, I not going to dispute that. Um I don't remember.
02:43:57 I took you earlier uh this morning to the draft letter that Lindsay had written to you in September 2002.
02:44:13 And I asked you about the reflections that you'd had on the hurt Yes.
02:44:20 Yes. that you'd done to Lindsay. Mhm.
02:44:25 Mhm. You first sleep with Donna Mlan on the 28th of September, 2002, by which stage you knew just how much hurt you'd caused Lindsay, didn't you?
02:44:39 hurt you'd caused Lindsay, didn't you? Um,
02:44:41 Um, yes. Um, I had not seen that letter, but but yes, of course, I could imagine. Can I take it you were entirely unmoved
02:44:52 Can I take it you were entirely unmoved by the hurt that you'd caused Lindsay when embarking upon your relationship with Donna Mlan? No sir, I I would not say that's
02:45:04 No sir, I I would not say that's accurate at all. Um but unfortunately um other things took over. Well, you say it's not accurate at all. Can you help me? You accept that you
02:45:15 Can you help me? You accept that you knew that having a deceitful sexual relationship with Lindsay had hurt her. You're embarking upon another sexual
02:45:26 You're embarking upon another sexual relationship which is deceitful and you know will have no future. Yeah.
02:45:32 Yeah. You must have known that there was a risk you were going to hurt Donna Mlan as well. Sir, at at that time I
02:45:44 as well. Sir, at at that time I have to be well I did not know that there was no future to it. Um I was seeking solace. Um as I say that's what happened and
02:45:57 as I say that's what happened and a longerterm relationship developed. At the very least there was a high risk that this was going to end in tears, wasn't there? Yes indeed. Yes.
02:46:08 Yes indeed. Yes. Did you give that any thought at all? Not at the time. No, sir. By this stage, it was long after
02:46:19 By this stage, it was long after DCIDell had made very clear to the unit that no one should be involved sexually with activists, wasn't it? Yes. If if you say so, sir. I don't
02:46:30 Yes. If if you say so, sir. I don't remember the exact dates for that. as best we can locate it in time. Our understanding based on DCIDell's uh witness statement as it was around
02:46:41 uh witness statement as it was around September 2001, a year before. Yes.
02:46:44 Yes. Yeah.
02:46:49 So, you were totally ignoring his instruction, weren't you? Uh, yes.
02:47:02 Can I take it that you did not tell DC Idel when you started the relationship with Donna Mlan that you had done so? Uh yes.
02:47:11 Uh yes. And that was because you knew uh he would disapprove. Uh yes, entirely. Entirely. Yes. Could anything have stopped you crossing
02:47:23 Could anything have stopped you crossing the line and deceiving Donna Mlan into a sexual relationship?
02:47:31 Nothing at that time, sir. No.
02:47:35 What did you think the prospects of getting caught were? Um, overwhelming. I think a very good chance. Why so?
02:47:47 Why so? Well, because you can't lie 100% of the time. Um, and for me in my head it was just going to be a matter of time.
02:48:01 be a matter of time. Before what? Before I either had to confess things or was found out
02:48:08 by any number of people. Did you think the fact you were an undercover police officer would come out to Donna Mlan?
02:48:21 would come out to Donna Mlan? Um,
02:48:23 Um, I debated that very thing many, many times during our time together. When you say debated, do you mean you debated whether you should tell her?
02:48:34 debated whether you should tell her? Yes. Yes.
02:48:36 Yes. Yes. That
02:48:36 That short of a conscious decision by you, what did you think the prospect of Donna Mlan ever finding out that you were a police officer? I I I don't know. Um, this is a very
02:48:48 I I don't know. Um, this is a very intelligent person who I'm sure would have worked it out. Did you consider that the likelihood was that she'd never find out?
02:49:00 No. Because at that stage um my mindset was such that I obviously thoroughly enjoyed the
02:49:11 I obviously thoroughly enjoyed the relationship. I got an awful lot of solace and support um where I ridiculously was not getting it elsewhere and I knew that with that as
02:49:24 elsewhere and I knew that with that as we all know the more you open up um the more chance there is that the truth will come out.
02:49:32 come out. Did you
02:49:34 Did you did the chance of you being caught play any part in your thinking?
02:49:41 Not not really sir. No, I I I knew it was a possibility, but it was not uh something that was at the forefront. If it had been a specific criminal
02:49:52 If it had been a specific criminal offense for an undercover police officer to sexually deceive another person into uh sexual activity, would you still have risked it? Uh no,
02:50:05 Uh no, don't think so.
02:50:09 Can I move now into how the relationship uh developed? Is it right that on that uh first weekend
02:50:19 weekend that you having slept with Donna Mlan went back to your accommodation to get some more clothes and then stayed a second night? Entirely possible. Yes,
02:50:33 Donna definitely would have at some stage come to the flat at that point in Homon. So, yeah, no dispute. So, we can take it that the idea that this was a one night stand um
02:50:46 this was a one night stand um disappeared immediately. Yes, sir.
02:50:50 Yes, sir. Is it right that you discussed monogamy with Donna Mlan on that first weekend? I I don't remember that, I'm afraid, sir. But again, lots of things were
02:51:01 sir. But again, lots of things were discussed. Um I was um very hung over. Um so yes, lots of things I'm sure were discussed. Her evidence is that you raised it and
02:51:12 Her evidence is that you raised it and said that that's what you wanted and she readily agreed. Do you dispute any of that?
02:51:18 that? No, I'm not not going to dispute it. I I don't remember it. And did the relationship quickly develop such that you spent most evenings, nights, and weekends at hers? We we
02:51:29 nights, and weekends at hers? We we certainly spent a lot of time together. I was still obviously going back to my real world, sir. But but yes, you cooked a lot. I like cooking.
02:51:40 I like cooking. You professed love for her. Um yeah,
02:51:44 Um yeah, every day. Yeah.
02:51:48 Yeah. You were generous with gifts. Absolutely. It's part of my character. Um but yes, and you put real thought into what you should buy. Um, absolutely.
02:52:00 should buy. Um, absolutely. Gifts such as coffee cups. Yes.
02:52:04 Yes. Designer gear. Yeah.
02:52:07 Yeah. Sunglasses. Yeah.
02:52:10 Yeah. Long boots. Yeah, I guess so. Jewelry.
02:52:14 Jewelry. Yeah, that. Yeah. An art deco dressing table. Yeah. As a fact, sir. Um, these I'm afraid I can't remember all of the
02:52:25 afraid I can't remember all of the details of these things. They in that way weren't that important to me. I just felt I was doing something nice. A lot of sex. Uh yeah, certainly
02:52:37 Uh yeah, certainly pretty much every day. Yeah, at the start. Yes. Went out to concerts. Um yeah, there used to go at music scene
02:52:48 Um yeah, there used to go at music scene um with all of the people that I was alongside. It was matches. A bigger pon football matches I think went to one. Yes. Might have been two, but definitely one.
02:52:58 one. Had people over for dinner. Uh, yes.
02:53:03 Uh, yes. She was a socialist.
02:53:07 I learned she was a trade unionist. Um, I was not aware that she had joined the Socialist Party until much later in their relationship. Um, putting aside party membership, she was
02:53:19 putting aside party membership, she was a socialist. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Her political outlook was socialist. and she'd attend the larger demonstrations. Well, yeah. I met her at the stop the war.
02:53:32 She wasn't someone you would describe as extreme leftwing. No, that that never came across. No. Or a political activist?
02:53:43 Or a political activist? Um, no.
02:53:45 Um, no. Above and beyond being a socialist attending lar demonstrations. Yes, sir.
02:53:52 Yes, sir. She share with you at an early stage that her father had been physically abusive towards her mother. Physically abusive. Yes, I think that
02:54:03 Physically abusive. Yes, I think that was shed.
02:54:05 was shed. And did you say to her that your father had been physically abusive towards your mother?
02:54:11 mother? I I did um as it was part of my legend that I did not get on with my father. So yes. Why did you say to Donna Mlan after
02:54:24 yes. Why did you say to Donna Mlan after she'd
02:54:25 she'd disclosed the abuse in her family that your father had been physically abusive to your mother? I think I think at the time it was just a shared conversation
02:54:38 time it was just a shared conversation um about an experience um that formed a part of my legend, part of the reason why I wasn't living back in Italy um why I disliked my father, why I
02:54:51 Italy um why I disliked my father, why I didn't have a lot to do with my family. Were you seeking to close the bond with Donna Mlan? That was not what was in my mind. But as
02:55:03 That was not what was in my mind. But as I say, it was making conversation. Um,
02:55:08 Um, but that was not what was in my mind. Obviously, it was going to event some empathy, wasn't it? Oh, absolutely. Yes. But, but again, I never thought of it like that. And it did. Of course. Um, you know, reflecting back
02:55:20 Of course. Um, you know, reflecting back on it. Absolutely. And it must have been obvious to you that it would um affect her emotions. Yes. But the whole purpose of my deployment when I was interacting with
02:55:32 deployment when I was interacting with people in whatever way was I'm afraid to um
02:55:38 um get to know them and to push out my my legend, my sort of cover.
02:55:47 Did you ever talk to her about Steven Lawrence?
02:55:51 Lawrence? I don't recall. No. Again, it was a subject at the time, but I I don't recall.
02:55:58 recall. Might you have done so? Entirely possible. Entirely possible. I would have spoken with that with all of my associates. And what sort of things would you have said?
02:56:08 said? It was a terrible thing. What was a terrible thing? His murder and the subsequent investigation. His murder or the police response to it?
02:56:20 His murder or the police response to it? Well, both. Both, really. You know, obviously there was an awful lot of stuff um in the press at the time regarding the police response.