The witness, an undercover police officer (HN104), is questioned on a series of intelligence reports from 2000-2001. The session focuses on the officer's reporting thresholds, the propriety of monitoring democratic processes and industrial disputes, and specific allegations regarding the activities of 'No Platform' and individuals like Dan Gilman and Joe Batty.
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00:26:51 Good afternoon, This afternoon's proceedings will be live-streamed after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing
00:27:02 to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that's being reported. They may not be used for photography or recordings. Yes.
00:27:12 Yes. Thank you, sir. Could we have up from tab C203
00:27:16 tab C203 MPS001901C,
00:27:20 please?
00:27:24 Mr. Swire, before lunch, we were looking at a report from the end of 2000 about an individual's plan to stand in a council election. This is a report from
00:27:35 council election. This is a report from the 19th of May 2003 attributed to you about Joe Batty and council
00:27:46 about Joe Batty and council elections. I'll give you a moment to look at it, but it's to the effect that Mr. Batty is planning to stand as a counselor in the City of London.
00:28:31 Sir, why did you report this information? Um
00:28:36 Um from memory, it would have been uh indicative of Mr. Batty's uh political beliefs and his nature. Um
00:28:46 Um and and that, as I say, I wasn't actually told why to go out. I was told to report back anything I picked up and this would have been one of those cases.
00:28:57 been one of those cases. I mean, there is some threshold, isn't there? You don't report every little bit of tittle-tattle that you hear. Um
00:29:06 Um No, absolutely. There is a threshold, but this would have been considered by my back office something that might be worthy of note. Did you give any consideration to the
00:29:17 Did you give any consideration to the propriety of an undercover police officer reporting on the democratic process?
00:29:27 I was deployed um against uh political groups. Um so everything that I reported back, if it came from that kind of
00:29:38 came from that kind of uh environment um I I would have put it in. It It was not for me, I'm afraid, to decide whether it should be turned into an intelligence report or not. Um I just
00:29:49 an intelligence report or not. Um I just reported the information in my debriefs with my cover officers and they would then formulate um what we see before us here. Um I I had no bearing on where it went or if it
00:30:02 had no bearing on where it went or if it went in.
00:30:03 went in. Can I take it Can I take that answer as a no to my question?
00:30:10 question? Yes, sir. My apologies. Uh if we take that down now, can we have up from tab C52 MPS 0004974?
00:30:27 This is 11th of January at 2001.
00:30:32 Give you a moment to read it, but it's about um the negotiating committee uh in the Hackney dispute and which was going to negotiate with Hackney Council.
00:30:54 Can sir In the context of an industrial dispute, why as an undercover police officer are you reporting who has been elected to
00:31:05 you reporting who has been elected to negotiate on behalf of the workers? As As I've said, sir. Um I would pick up information. I would feed it back to my cover officers. Um
00:31:17 feed it back to my cover officers. Um They never told me not to report back these things. So, that's what I I did. Was it because the person concerned was a member of MFJ? No.
00:31:28 a member of MFJ? No. Was it because the person concerned was a steward with the TGWU? No.
00:31:37 What was it that took it over the threshold that you applied for reportable material then? Um well, we we we talked about my threshold. My threshold um my instructions were
00:31:48 instructions were anything you hear and pick up, you report back at your debriefs, and we will then decide whether that is of value or not. Um as I say, I never typed
00:31:59 value or not. Um as I say, I never typed these reports. I would go back and be debriefed. Um and they they would go from there. Can you recall what was said about this information when you were debriefed on it? No, sir.
00:32:10 No, sir. Do you know what was done with this intelligence? Um Again, as I say, I generally reported um my intelligence went back to the public order desk, and as I say, there was uh
00:32:22 order desk, and as I say, there was uh an extreme left-wing desk at the time. I assumed it went there. This isn't about public disorder, and what I'm driving at is do you know
00:32:33 what I'm driving at is do you know whether this information was shared with Hackney Council? No idea. I wouldn't have thought so. Um
00:32:42 Um as I say, I can't see the protective marking, but as far as I was aware, we didn't share anything. Um
00:32:50 Um you know, it went to the desk and that was it. Even in a sanitized form? I don't know. Can we take that down, please? Could we have up MPS 0748
00:33:01 have up MPS 0748 834.
00:33:05 This is a report from the 9th of November 2000 uh about Operation Tippett and uh the a meeting of the Lambeth
00:33:16 and uh the a meeting of the Lambeth Police Consultative Committee. Uh
00:33:20 Uh if we look at page one, the first paragraph, just to help you orientate uh what this was about.
00:33:36 Okay. Were you at this meeting? No. Are you sure of that? Um yes, sir. Well, I have no recollection of it.
00:33:46 of it. Um I'm trying to work out why I might have been there, but no. I was not there. I'll
00:33:53 I'll in light of that answer, if we can zoom out, I'll give you a moment to to look at that report. And the question I'm going to ask you is is this your reporting or or reporting based on information you have submitted?
00:34:47 I don't think I wrote that report, sir. I don't recognize any of it. Thank you. Can we take that down? Can we have from tap C 23 MPS 0004301?
00:35:03 This is a report dated the 16th of October 2000. It's attributed to you. It's about a civil rights march on the 14th of October
00:35:17 14th of October 2000. Give you a moment to read it.
00:35:40 Yes, sir. Did you attend that march? No.
00:35:46 No. How did you obtain this intelligence then?
00:35:49 then? This would have been from conversations in some kind of social setting.
00:35:57 This is an a report after the event, 2 days after. Why report on a demonstration after it has happened if
00:36:11 after it has happened if it's passed off peacefully? Um because again it indicates a mood and what might happen. It also informs a policing plan for any further events.
00:36:23 for any further events. Um that would have been my only reason for that.
00:36:26 for that. But, again, we would have spoken about this when I was being debriefed by my cover officers.
00:36:33 officers. They would have formed the intelligence report from that. The National Civil Rights Movement was a movement that had emerged as out of the Stephen Lawrence campaign, the Stephen
00:36:45 Stephen Lawrence campaign, the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, wasn't it? If you say so, sir, yes. Was there a racial dimension to the work of the National
00:36:56 dimension to the work of the National Civil Rights Movement? I have no idea. I I had no involvement with them. If we could take that down now, please. Can we have up your witness statement 35550
00:37:07 35550 at page 139?
00:37:12 Paragraph 293.9.
00:37:19 This is the section of your statement when you're being asked questions about HN81.
00:37:25 HN81. I was not aware of the allegation that he had been reporting on the Lawrence Justice Campaign until this featured in the media exposé. I do have a recollection at the time of my deployment of HN81 mentioning at one
00:37:37 my deployment of HN81 mentioning at one of the twice-weekly meetings of his target group, I think MFJ, coming into contact with the Stephen Lawrence campaign.
00:37:46 campaign. So, in relation to this, can you help us with what was discussed at this bi-weekly meeting in relation to the Stephen Lawrence campaign?
00:37:57 campaign? I'm afraid I can't, sir. I'm I can't remember.
00:38:00 remember. Um I just would have been something that might have been discussed, but I couldn't tell you about the contents of that. I can't remember. Was the Stephen Lawrence campaign
00:38:11 Was the Stephen Lawrence campaign something that cropped up at these meetings from time to time? Other than this occasion, sir, I don't don't recall that it used to pop up a lot. Um as I say
00:38:24 lot. Um as I say uh HNA1
00:38:26 uh HNA1 uh left the field quite early on in my deployment.
00:38:32 Can you recall discussion of MFJ? Uh other than when I met him for uh coffee and for him to sort of talk me through things. Not not really, no.
00:38:44 through things. Not not really, no. Could we take that down now, please? Could we have from tab C 24 MPS trip 004316?
00:38:55 This is a prospective report dated the 20th of October 2000 about um
00:39:04 about um a trip the following day to Margate uh to confront, it says the National Front who are going to
00:39:16 the National Front who are going to demonstrate there. Did you go to Margate on the 21st of October 2000? Don't think I did.
00:39:27 Don't think I did. I don't recall going to Margate around that time.
00:39:33 This is
00:39:36 is this connected to the Socialist Party rather than the SWP? Um
00:39:44 Um yes, it is in that um the Socialist Party
00:39:48 Party uh had the link into uh what was then called No Platform. Can you help us with given the date, which is quite early in your deployment,
00:40:00 which is quite early in your deployment, how quickly you moved from the SWP to the Socialist Party? Very quickly. As is shown from that report, sir.
00:40:13 As is shown from that report, sir. And was it a sudden transition or a gradual transition? Um I would say sudden.
00:40:21 And was the catalyst for that transition the formation of no platform? Uh I would say yes because obviously my
00:40:32 Uh I would say yes because obviously my handlers
00:40:33 handlers were interested in groups of this kind.
00:40:40 If we can take that down now, please. If we could have that from tab C37 MPS 0004664.
00:40:53 This is one of a number of reports about um
00:40:59 um the Remembrance Day uh protests, the National Front wreath-laying and the counter-demonstration against that uh on the 12th of
00:41:11 uh on the 12th of November 2000. This particular report is after uh the event. Um
00:41:18 Um and I put it up so you can look at it and see what was reported as an account of events on the day.
00:42:13 Yes, sir. Were you there on the day? Yes. Can you recall there being any disorder? Um other than what was related to me
00:42:25 Um other than what was related to me when we all came back together at the end of the day, and I did not personally see any disorder. We were split up into groups. You seem to have put some emphasis on
00:42:39 You seem to have put some emphasis on the
00:42:40 the presence of a police photographer. Um
00:42:44 Um Would we be right to understand you as saying the presence of the police photographer had done a lot to deter trouble?
00:42:50 trouble? Um I I think that was my opinion at the time, yes. Would it be right in thinking that at any major
00:42:58 any major uh demonstration or counter-demonstration, you would expect the Metropolitan Police Service to deploy a photographer? Um yeah, if it was a big enough event, yes. I think it was a
00:43:11 yes. I think it was a what still is a tactic as far as I'm aware.
00:43:14 aware. Can we take that down now, please? Can we have up from tab C34 MPS 0004660?
00:43:33 Uh this is about the same demonstration. Says Dan Gilman received at least five telephone calls from a representative of Searchlight. The caller relayed information to Gilman concerning the
00:43:45 information to Gilman concerning the location and numbers of right-wing activists in the area. Gilman tended to corroborate the information from his own spotters prior to instigating any
00:43:57 spotters prior to instigating any action.
00:43:58 action. Were you present when Mr. Gilman received the any of these telephone calls?
00:44:05 calls? Um I think I was present on a couple of occasions uh when we were forming up in public houses. Um,
00:44:15 Um, I can't remember if it was all five, but that would have been again related to me at some stage. How did you know that the calls were from Searchlight? Um, I believe that's the term that would
00:44:26 Um, I believe that's the term that would have been used at the time. Um, I wouldn't have just plucked that out of thin air, so to speak. I would have had to have heard that. And that's what I would have reported back. And on what basis were you able to report that
00:44:38 what basis were you able to report that Mr. Gilman tended to corroborate the information from his own spotters? Um,
00:44:45 Um, we would have spotters deployed in the area.
00:44:48 area. Um, there would be further phone calls um, between Mr. Gilbert Gilman or other members of of the group asking them to check things out.
00:45:02 What action is being referred to at the end of that report?
00:45:10 To confront them at very least. Were they confronted? As I say, I never witnessed anything, but I heard back that some people might have had a confrontation, but I never saw nothing
00:45:23 confrontation, but I never saw nothing at that stage. How certain are you that Mr. Gilman was speaking to a representative of Searchlight? Um, I'm certain from the point of view,
00:45:35 Um, I'm certain from the point of view, sir, that that's what I would have heard being said. I I didn't actually speak to them, so I cannot say 100%, but that's what I would have heard being said. Might you have
00:45:46 have heard being said. Might you have been mistaken? I don't believe so. Can we take that down, please? And can we have up from tab C50 MPS 3004904?
00:46:00 This is a report from the 19th of December 2000. It's about a demonstration outside the Public House in Euston.
00:46:11 House in Euston. I'll give you a moment to read it.
00:46:41 Mr. Were you there? Uh
00:46:45 Uh No, I was driving to get there, but I never actually made it there in time. Are you able to help us with what the attack
00:46:56 attack on the right-wing demonstration amounted to? Certainly from my memory and understanding, uh they were able to uh infiltrate into the right-wing march
00:47:09 uh infiltrate into the right-wing march uh
00:47:09 uh through side streets um and obviously as a result of that, they were able to get past the police uh that were marching alongside it. And some kind of melee ensued.
00:47:22 some kind of melee ensued. And presumably the basis for your intelligence was what you were told by others. Yes. And in what terms was this melee described?
00:47:33 described? Um
00:47:34 Um a fight.
00:47:37 Are you able to help us whether this was just shouting abuse from a distance or whether this involved trading blows? Well, I can't help you that. I was not there, sir.
00:47:50 Could we take that down now, please? Could we have up from tap 53 MPS 304991?
00:48:02 This is the 13th of January, 2001. And if we could have the text expanded.
00:48:15 Give you a moment to read that, but please pay particular attention to the second paragraph.
00:48:40 Yes, sir. Were you present in the Wetherspoons public house opposite Balham tube station on the day? Uh yeah, pretty certain I was there, yes.
00:48:49 yes. And
00:48:52 And the part of the report which reads, "When the National Front failed to appear, Gilman telephoned a privacy of the National Front in order to goad him about their non-appearance."
00:49:04 to goad him about their non-appearance." Uh
00:49:05 Uh how did you know about that telephone call? I I think I was sat at a table in the pub when the phone call was being made.
00:49:14 Can you help us with how Mr. Gilman would have the telephone number of a member of the National Front? I'm afraid I can't say, no. I'm asking because Mr. Gilman denies
00:49:27 I'm asking because Mr. Gilman denies having done this. The only reason I could give as to why Mr. Gilman might have the phone number is
00:49:35 is obviously
00:49:37 obviously political groups like that would have had a phone number that could be rung um regarding uh rendezvous points. All I can think is Mr. Gilman had that number, which again would have
00:49:50 number, which again would have come in through some kind of intelligence gathering. I don't know what. How certain are you that Mr. Gilman made a call of the kind described in this
00:50:01 a call of the kind described in this report?
00:50:02 report? The call was definitely made. I cannot 100% say that it was made to the NF, but I recall the conversation and I don't recall the
00:50:13 and I don't recall the conversation we had a group of as a group afterwards about where they were. And what was the nature of that conversation? I couldn't remember, sir.
00:50:24 conversation? I couldn't remember, sir. It was about where the NF were and why they hadn't turned up.
00:50:32 What form did the goading take? I think it was sort of swearing and challenging from memory, but again, we are
00:50:41 are talking quite a while ago. If I was going to say I'd say lads talk. Can we take that down now, please? Can we have from tab C 56 MPS 305368?
00:51:02 This is a report dated the 19th of January 2001 about an event that's believed to be planned for the 3rd of
00:51:13 believed to be planned for the 3rd of March 2001. If you look at the first paragraph, you'll see an introduction to the issue.
00:51:27 And the second paragraph says that there's an intention of the two groups is to remain in the vicinity of where the right-wing are holding their protest in the hope that they may ambush some of
00:51:38 in the hope that they may ambush some of their rivals. Did you
00:51:42 Did you in the result attend the event on the 3rd of March, 2001. I think I did. Um I certainly
00:51:53 I think I did. Um I certainly reads as if something that I would have gone on, but I I couldn't tell you cities, but um yes.
00:51:59 um yes. I think I did. Can you help us first of all
00:52:03 all at at this early stage on in January, Uh-huh.
00:52:08 Uh-huh. what
00:52:09 what discussion about an ambush had there been?
00:52:17 It It would have been planning to disrupt the the movement and actions of the National Front activists or the right-wingers. Um that's what it would have amounted to.
00:52:31 To disrupt, is that
00:52:34 is that does that mean it may not have involved physical violence? Well, it would have involved
00:52:39 involved um
00:52:40 um confrontation, which if it then turned into physical violence, that was part and parcel of the I don't really want to say game, but that was part and parcel of of what the
00:52:52 that was part and parcel of of what the group did. I understand the distinction that you're drawing there. Can I take you to the day itself? What actually happened? I I can't remember, sir. They They would have been lots of people out and about.
00:53:05 have been lots of people out and about. I think we would have spent our time sort of looking for um opposition activists. Was there an ambush? I can't remember, sir.
00:53:17 I can't remember, sir. I wasn't involved in any, I don't think. Can we take this down now, please? And can we have up from tab C62 MPS um 4005529.
00:53:31 Got a feeling that might in fact be three zeros. If you can't find one with four, try three.
00:53:40 Thank you. Uh this is uh 19th of uh March
00:53:47 March and uh it is about the Beckton Council election
00:53:54 election and it reports on plans for election day Thursday the 29th of March. Says the tension is to be present for the evening count to disrupt proceedings for the BNP
00:54:06 count to disrupt proceedings for the BNP candidate. Activists are intending to single out the BNP security team for attack.
00:54:17 Did you attend the count in the Beckton election on the 29th of March? Yes.
00:54:26 Yes. What happened? Um I think it was quite well policed. I can recall that we
00:54:33 that we spent time going around the area looking for people, but my recollection is that the BNP were already um inside the the council
00:54:44 already um inside the the council chambers.
00:54:45 chambers. Um
00:54:46 Um don't think we got near them. There were police around, obviously, um cuz they attracted that sort of uh coverage. Does that mean no violence and no disorder?
00:54:57 disorder? Um
00:54:58 Um not there, no. I think there was uh violence that night, but that was in a another place, and I don't know that it was directed politically, um
00:55:08 um even though I think that was used as the excuse. Are you able to help us with whether or not your intelligence assisted the police response or whether simply
00:55:20 police response or whether simply because it was a BNP candidate standing in Beckton, it would be obvious that there needed to be a big police presence?
00:55:29 presence? I like to think it would have been a combination of the two. However,
00:55:34 However, you would have to direct that to the people who received that intelligence from me.
00:55:39 from me. If we take that down now, please. Could we have up from tab C66 MPS305536.
00:55:53 This is a report also dated the 19th of March 2001. Uh and it's about fitness training um being undertaken by Mario Joe Batty,
00:56:04 being undertaken by Mario Joe Batty, Steve Headley, someone who we're keeping anonymous, and Fauzia. Uh
00:56:12 Uh said to consist of circuit training at a boxing club near Batty's address in Peckham.
00:56:19 Peckham. Source comment, the group has been in training for the past 4 weeks and believes it will be useful in any confrontation with the fascists. Uh did you attend these training sessions? No, sir.
00:56:30 sessions? No, sir. How did you know about them? Uh the people concerned talked about them. Uh the evidence this inquiry has received was to the effect that the boxing club in question was in fact in
00:56:42 boxing club in question was in fact in East London, not South London. May that be right? It could be. I I don't know. I Uh and is it right that Mr. Headley was a member of this boxing club?
00:56:54 a member of this boxing club? Um
00:56:56 Um again, I don't know. I know he was a boxer.
00:56:59 boxer. Um so, entirely possible. Uh you got to know Mr. Headley reasonably well, didn't you during your d- employment? Uh yes. Uh he'd been a boxer for a very long time, hadn't he?
00:57:10 time, hadn't he? I think so. I I only ever saw him box once.
00:57:16 Mr. Batty either was either had be either was or had been a rugby player. Uh I think we talked about him playing rugby league, yes.
00:57:27 rugby league, yes. And he was brought up in a tough part of Manchester. Again, yes, that's what I was told. He didn't need to learn how to fight, did he? Um
00:57:41 I think he could fight, yes, from what I saw.
00:57:44 saw. On the other hand, Fawsiyar would run from trouble. Um
00:57:50 Um I'm trying to remember who Fawsiyar is. Are they in here? Mr. Mr. Butt's partner. Ah, right. Um I don't know. Um
00:58:01 Um I couldn't really expand on that.
00:58:07 The evidence we've received uh is that there was very little such training, either
00:58:15 either Yeah. a session one session or a very small number of sessions. Might that be right?
00:58:21 right? Absolutely. Um as I've said there in my comment, um I think it fizzled out, basically, but it certainly happened a few times, but I I never bothered to send it
00:58:31 send it What was the basis for reporting um a belief that it would be useful in any confrontation with the fascists? Well, that's what was said to me by the
00:58:42 Well, that's what was said to me by the activists. Uh respecting privacy, uh which activist? I I couldn't remember exactly, sir.
00:58:52 If it was suggested that this report rather exaggerate something very mundane, what would be your response? Um I'd disagree with that because that
00:59:03 Um I'd disagree with that because that was definitely said to me. Um but at the same time if if that's what people want to argue, fine, but I don't agree with that. Could we take that down now, please?
00:59:14 Could we take that down now, please? Could we have from tap C67 MPF3005537?
00:59:24 This again again from the 19th of March 2001
00:59:29 2001 is a report to the effect that Mr. Gilman had been given a compact disc of the AFA's photographs of people from the far right.
00:59:42 far right. Can you help us with the basis for reporting this information? Uh the basis for that, I think, would have come from conversations that took place between myself and
00:59:55 place between myself and those activists. Did you actually see this CD? I don't remember seeing it. Did you see the photographs? I might have seen some of them at some stage, but again,
01:00:07 stage, but again, I I can't really remember, sir.
01:00:11 Do you know what was done with the CD? Not after it was spoken about in this thing. I think it may have been used, um
01:00:22 thing. I think it may have been used, um when we were out, but I never saw it. I was not a spotter. I was not given this these this disc or prints from this disc to look at. Does that mean when you say may have
01:00:34 Does that mean when you say may have been used, that's a matter of supposition? Um I don't know. That's the honest answer. Um I don't recall seeing them. Other than this conversation and maybe seeing a disc, I
01:00:46 conversation and maybe seeing a disc, I don't recall anything else. Do you know whether or not the photographs did enable, um No Platform to identify any members of the far right?
01:00:57 right? Um
01:00:59 Um I can't say with any degree of certainty, sir. No. Can we take that down now, please? And can we uh
01:01:05 can we uh now have from tab C76, MPS 305731?
01:01:15 Again to a National Front march in Bermondsey. This is the 2001 uh event.
01:01:52 Thank you. 20th of April 2001. This is a a report about events at the demonstration 6 days earlier on Saturday the 14th.
01:02:04 6 days earlier on Saturday the 14th. I'll give you a moment just to refresh your memory.
01:02:40 Yes, sir. Were you there? Uh yes, I was. Can you give us an idea of how many uh No Platform activists uh showed up?
01:02:53 Anything between 15 and 20, sir, I think.
01:02:57 think. And how many uh National Front marchers? Um I think it was a a slightly larger group. I can't remember for sure. There were other
01:03:08 There were other uh
01:03:08 uh anti-fascist activists in attendance, but in terms of No Platform, the number I've just given you. But, there were other people there protesting.
01:03:19 other people there protesting. Since current MP tactics are to locate the meeting point for fascists and then to attack them before they get anywhere near the location of the March. What was the basis for reporting that that was
01:03:30 the basis for reporting that that was the plan? I was told that was the plan. To stop them forming up to stop them making it to Bermondsey. Respecting anonymity.
01:03:42 In so far as you've seen the reductions to date. Who told you that was the plan? That that would have been the main organizers for no platform.
01:03:53 organizers for no platform. Um.
01:03:55 Um. Mr. Gilman? Yes, sir. Mr. Batty? Uh entirely yes, possible. Anybody else? And if they're anonymous, please write it down.
01:04:05 it down. Um.
01:04:08 Um. There would have been other activists, but certainly Mr. Gilman and Mr. Batty would have would have communicated that to me. Were there any particulars given of the form of attack that was expected?
01:04:21 of attack that was expected? Um well,
01:04:22 Um well, to run into them and get them to disperse. So, if that involved uh slapping or punching someone, that's perfectly acceptable.
01:04:35 On the day itself, am I understanding that nothing of that sort in fact occurred?
01:04:42 occurred? Uh not in Central London, no. Not as far as I'm aware.
01:04:49 Could we uh take that report down, please? And can we have up from tab C84 MPS 305831?
01:05:06 4th of May, 2001. This is a report about events in Leicester
01:05:14 Leicester on the 21st of April 2001. If we can have the text expand and I'll give you a moment to read it.
01:05:50 So.
01:05:53 Were you there?
01:05:56 I I can't remember. I think I was. Um
01:05:59 Um Can you recall witnessing an attack on a car? No, sir.
01:06:07 Mr. Gilman has denied that there was any attack on a car carrying National Front supporters. Might he be right about that? No.
01:06:20 Might he be right about that? No. If you did not see the attack on the car, how can you be sure? As I like to sort of say in the intelligence report, um
01:06:31 intelligence report, um they were members of the London group who had formed up with the Nottingham group. I wasn't with them. I don't believe Mr. Gilman was either. Um and it was reported back to us that
01:06:42 Um and it was reported back to us that they had had, as I say, attacked. And that they'd been able to cause problems for opposition activists. Um
01:06:51 Um Did I physically see that? No. But this is what was reported back to me.
01:06:59 So, you're reporting Am I understanding your evidence correctly? You say you are reporting Mr. Gilman's reaction to being told by others that they'd been in contact
01:07:10 others that they'd been in contact was present when that story was told. It wasn't Mr. Gillman that told that story. It was one of the activists that had been involved from our London group with the Nottingham group.
01:07:24 Can we take that down now, please, and go to tab B36, MPS 305746?
01:07:36 This is a document about a visit to the SDS by ACO Veness, accompanied by Commander Pierce on Thursday, the 26th of April, 2001.
01:07:51 on Thursday, the 26th of April, 2001. one.
01:07:53 one. Can you recall that visit? Vaguely, sir. We we used to get visited. Yeah. I I recall Mr. Veness um cuz he was quite distinctive.
01:08:05 um cuz he was quite distinctive. Why was he distinctive? Uh he had really nice silver hair. Uh this document records that you were present on the day and it talks about
01:08:19 present on the day and it talks about groups of officers it being intended to spend about 15 to 20 minutes with the ACSO. Is that what is likely to have happened?
01:08:30 Is that what is likely to have happened? I believe so. I I wouldn't have um attached a great deal of importance to this. We we would get visited from time to time. We would give a brief description of our work or what we were
01:08:41 description of our work or what we were tasked to do, and then we we would get on with our day, basically. It was more for the back office um to deal with this. And to what extent was it for the ACSO
01:08:53 And to what extent was it for the ACSO and Commander Pierce? Um well, I I think, again, as I say, the AXO, as we would call him, uh and and Mr. Pierce. Um obviously
01:09:06 Um obviously permissions wouldn't come through that way.
01:09:08 way. I'm sorry. And so I think that was why they were brought out to see us just to um to meet us and to understand what it was that we were doing. Uh and in terms of helping them to
01:09:20 Uh and in terms of helping them to understand what you were doing, what sort of things would you have said to the AXO?
01:09:26 the AXO? I can't remember, sir. I am sorry. This is the 26th of April 2001.
01:09:33 2001. Yes. We know that 5 days later uh there was a sizable protest on May Day 2001, wasn't there?
01:09:44 Day 2001, wasn't there? Yeah, I'm not great with dates, sir, but yes, I was we were Day protests were an annual fixture around that time, wasn't it? Um
01:09:51 Um doesn't stand out in my memory. Um I attended a few of those over the years. Uh that was the one at which you were cordoned by police. Well, the demonstrators were cordoned by
01:10:02 Well, the demonstrators were cordoned by police.
01:10:03 police. Does that ring any bells? I recall being cordoned by police. I couldn't tell you the exact date.
01:10:10 Would you, for example, spoken to the AXO about the fact that you uh were involved with a group that would be turning out on May Day?
01:10:21 May Day? No.
01:10:22 No. In exactly those words. My sort of recollection of things like this were that these senior officers would turn up and we would they would basically it would go around the room
01:10:34 basically it would go around the room and it would be, "Can you tell them what it is you're deployed against?" So, my responses would have been obviously anti-fascist, militant anti-fascist groups, um predominantly at
01:10:46 anti-fascist groups, um predominantly at this moment in time no platform. Um If you could go to page two, please.
01:10:58 We see uh this section on the extreme left wing. This is part of the briefing. Says under deployment, one officer targets against SWP and more recently No Platform. No Platform is a relatively
01:11:10 Platform. No Platform is a relatively new organization formed by members of the Socialist Party who target specific individuals and events with the aim of injury and disorder. That appears to be a reference
01:11:21 a reference to your deployment. Is that fair? Yes, sir.
01:11:25 Yes, sir. On what basis um
01:11:28 um is it said can it be said that the aim was to cause injury?
01:11:36 I I never wrote this, sir. Um I don't really know what they were trying to say there. I think
01:11:43 I think the aim of injury and disorder, it would come down to it's a a really good way of disrupting something. If you were hurt someone, they generally don't want to come back.
01:11:56 I understand you didn't write this, but what I would like to understand is whether you think this is a an accurate reflection of No Platform
01:12:07 reflection of No Platform or whether it exaggerates the reality. I I think it's accurate, sir. Um
01:12:15 Um And it intentionally causing injury. Yes.
01:12:21 Could we take that down now, please? Can we go to tab C80 MPS 305795?
01:12:34 This is the 30th report dated the 30th of April, 2001. It's about the the then imminent protest on
01:12:44 on May Day
01:12:46 May Day 2001.
01:12:51 Can you see there that there is a list of planned uh stops
01:12:59 uh stops or activities along the way starting with walking to the University of London for an anti-tuition free rally, then moving
01:13:10 an anti-tuition free rally, then moving on to Coutts Bank, and then a march along
01:13:14 along Oxford Street. Yes, sir. So, see No Platform activists see their role as providing protection and guidance
01:13:22 guidance for other fluffy demonstrators. Is that Does that accurately portray the role of No Platform on the day?
01:13:33 role of No Platform on the day? Um I would say yes, because at demonstrations of this kind, um one of No Platform's roles was to act as a stewarding group for
01:13:45 a stewarding group for like-minded protesters. So, we would often walk alongside or in front of the demonstration. It goes on to say, "However, should the opportunity present itself for an attack
01:13:57 opportunity present itself for an attack on property or the police, then they will take part." What was the basis for making that comment?
01:14:08 making that comment? Um the basis for that would have been what was said to me. Um
01:14:12 Um I can't remember by who, but by other activists. What property was being referred to? I I don't know. I would imagine anything capitalist
01:14:24 anything capitalist in its outlook. Banks, things like that. I think Starbucks was always popular back then. Attacking Would you agree that attacking the police is quite a big deal? Yeah,
01:14:37 the police is quite a big deal? Yeah, very much so. It's why I was deployed.
01:14:41 And that certainly if one has a job
01:14:46 has a job uh one risks losing everything one's got if one gets convicted of attacking the police.
01:14:52 police. Yeah, I'd
01:14:53 Yeah, I'd suggest it depends on the job you have.
01:14:59 Is it your evidence that there were people who were specifically talking about seeking an opportunity to attack police?
01:15:10 police? Um,
01:15:11 Um, definitely spoken about, yes, sir. Being very careful about privacy, writing down names if you need to, who
01:15:20 who do you say was talking about attacking the police? Mario is always the name that comes to mind
01:15:29 mind because Mario generally informed what his life was about.
01:15:35 about. Anybody else? Um,
01:15:39 Um, certainly some of his friends and associates. Are we talking about the anarchists here? Uh, yes, but also
01:15:48 also the comrades in the party and no platform. Um, they weren't fans of the police. And I mean, not being a fan of the police and attacking them physically are
01:15:59 police and attacking them physically are two different things. Is it your evidence that anybody from the Socialist Party
01:16:04 Party was talking about attacking the police on May Day? Uh, yes, sir, it was definitely talked about.
01:16:12 about. Whether it happened, I can't tell you because we were split up.
01:16:17 up. Again, being careful about privacy, writing down the names if you need to, which members of the Socialist Party do you say
01:16:25 you say were looking for an opportunity to attack the police?
01:16:55 Thank you.
01:17:16 The names you give me Frank Smith, Dan Gilman, and Joe Batty.
01:17:23 So your evidence that all three of them were planning to attack the police? No, sir. They were not planning. This was talked about if the police got in the way, then they were fair game. In
01:17:34 in the way, then they were fair game. In what sort of terms was this discussed? Um, this would have been discussed in the planning. So prior to the event. Can you help us with that
01:17:45 with that so we fully understand the nuance. In what terms did they talk about attacking the police? Well, we're
01:17:56 Well, we're I mean, from memory it was the police will try to get in the way. We're not going to have that. We will try and break through their lines. There was reference made to previous occasions
01:18:07 reference made to previous occasions where they had been in at very least pushing, shoving matches with police officers. Prior to my deployment, but this was often talked about. Yeah. Okay. So, pushing and
01:18:18 about. Yeah. Okay. So, pushing and shoving. Yeah. Did it go beyond that? I I wasn't there, sir, but these were what's talked about. We we will not What's been talked about? not allow the police to get in our way. If we need to, we will use physical
01:18:30 If we need to, we will use physical force to deal with them. And was your understanding that what they were referring to was a bit of pushing and shoving? No, it was they will use physical force. The the level to what that goes depends
01:18:42 The the level to what that goes depends very much on the situation, I'm afraid. Did you ever see Frank Smith use physical violence towards the police?
01:18:56 Possibly. I I can't remember. To be honest, I can't give you an exact occasion now. When you say possibly, do you have a recollection now of Mr.
01:19:08 do you have a recollection now of Mr. Frank Smith using violence towards the police?
01:19:16 Well, um
01:19:20 am I able to talk about foreign deployment, sir?
01:19:25 Yes, I'm not
01:19:27 I'm not charged with the task of investigating undercover policing abroad, but I do receive evidence about it if it's relevant. It for part of my deployment, um
01:19:38 um I on one occasion, we were present I think it was in Genoa with Mr. Smith, and there were definitely items being thrown at police lines that
01:19:49 items being thrown at police lines that I witnessed Mr. Smith doing. In the UK, I was definitely there. I think it would have been Bermondsey again, where there was a National Front march and we attempted to break through the police
01:20:00 attempted to break through the police lines. So, there was rough and tumble um with the police. It it you know, I wasn't watching what Mr. Smith was doing exactly cuz I was trying to avoid uh
01:20:13 exactly cuz I was trying to avoid uh getting hurt myself. But, I recall sort of, you know, certainly wrestling with a police officer or a couple of police officers and watching the same thing happen with my colleagues
01:20:24 happen with my colleagues comrades as they were. Were you able to see in Genoa what Mr. Frank Smith was throwing towards the Italian police. No.
01:20:39 Is it fair to say the Italian police were extremely rough in Genoa?
01:20:46 I'm not safe. I don't know Italian policing tactics. Well, you were there, weren't you? Oh, yeah.
01:20:54 yeah. Compared to the police force you were a member of, how rough were they being?
01:21:01 It's not an accurate or fair question, sir. We are not in this country allowed to deploy tear gas and water cannon. The Italian police and a lot of European police forces, it's part of their arsenal and part of their
01:21:14 part of their arsenal and part of their tactics.
01:21:15 tactics. You know,
01:21:17 You know, I I can't really go further than that. That's what I saw. Um
01:21:22 Um Mr. Batty, did you ever see Mr. Batty being violent towards the police? No, don't think so. Mr. Gilman,
01:21:34 Mr. Gilman, um
01:21:36 um I don't think so. Um I do think that he liked to talk it up um and discuss tactics and such, but nothing springs to mind.
01:21:51 Back to uh
01:21:56 May Day, if we take that document down, can you give me a yes and no uh answer to this next question? Were you told that there would be national public order intelligence unit coverage of the
01:22:09 order intelligence unit coverage of the event?
01:22:12 Not that I can recall, no.
01:22:17 I'd like to move to events on the day. Um obviously, it's a long day, so you'll need to tell me what happened over time. Can you help us with where were you?
01:22:32 I was in central London. Um
01:22:35 Um I don't recall the meeting point. Um
01:22:39 Um I think it was quite a warm day. And
01:22:43 And I was a part of the march and at some point, I think we got um cordoned. Did you go We We saw the itinerary as it were just a couple of documents back.
01:22:55 were just a couple of documents back. Did you go to the University of London protest? I don't believe I did, but again, I can't remember. It It It wouldn't have been that important to me. The point of
01:23:07 been that important to me. The point of that would have been continuing to maintain my legend. Did you go to the Coutts bank protest? No, don't recall that.
01:23:14 that. Did you walk up Regent Street to Oxford Circus?
01:23:20 Yeah, entirely possible. Because it was in Oxford Circus at the police and past the cordon, wasn't it?
01:23:30 In the period between arriving for the event
01:23:35 event and the cordon being imposed, what was the mood?
01:23:42 the mood? I can't remember. I think I think people were quite hot and bothered. I I do recall it being quite a warm day. Um
01:23:49 Um I was just walking with a group of activists, I think from the Socialist Party or no platform affiliations, but I was only there to maintain my legend. I
01:24:00 was only there to maintain my legend. I was not there to undertake any activities. Um I didn't really see. If it was suggested that it was a good-natured event up until the point of the cordon,
01:24:14 up until the point of the cordon, would you agree? The people I was with, I think it was good-natured. I couldn't comment on the rest of the people. There were
01:24:21 were certainly hundreds of people in my vicinity, so I I can't really give information as to that.
01:24:30 that. From where you were, could you see why the police imposed a cordon? No, sir.
01:24:42 When you were cordoned, were you still with your Socialist Party colleagues? I don't remember who it was with, sir. I think I must have been with somebody, yes.
01:24:54 yes. Were you with other people from No Platform who were not Socialist Party members? I can't recall, sir.
01:25:10 Were you near Lois Austin? At At some point, um I think Lowing Lois knew um the people I was with. Um and I
01:25:22 um the people I was with. Um and I think, yes, she must have stopped for a chat. I didn't know her personally that well.
01:25:29 All within the cordon? I believe so, yes.
01:25:32 yes. Did you see her partner, Niall Mulholland? I
01:25:36 I I wouldn't know who that was. She would have been with somebody, I imagine, but How well did you know Lois Austin at the time?
01:25:45 time? I might have seen her, met her once or twice at very most. The people I was with, obviously, would have known who she was. And what did you know of her role in the
01:25:58 And what did you know of her role in the Socialist Party at that time? I think it was indicated to me that she was a full-timer, as they used to call them. And what was your understanding at the time of her role in Youth Against Racism
01:26:11 time of her role in Youth Against Racism in Europe? I had no idea. Did you know that she was a national organizer? No. What was your understanding of the link, if any, between the Socialist Party and
01:26:22 if any, between the Socialist Party and the Youth Against Racism in Europe? Well, obviously, um it my impression was that it could be a recruiting ground for for No Platform.
01:26:33 recruiting ground for for No Platform. Um
01:26:34 Um I think
01:26:35 I think from memory, the uh some of the people I'd been alongside had been members. Um I I've got to be frank, um I wasn't aware that Lois was
01:26:46 frank, um I wasn't aware that Lois was uh YRE organizer. It was somebody else that I thought was the organizer, cuz that was who we spoke to.
01:26:56 Had you ever seen Lois Austin work as a spotter?
01:27:00 spotter? Uh it'd been intimated to me, yes. Can you explain the terms in which that was intimated to you? Um the usual talking within pubs, talking about um people that might go
01:27:13 talking about um people that might go out and do this kind of task. Um and that would have been one of the names that was mentioned.
01:27:22 By the time you are in the cordon, from your knowledge of Lois Austin direct and from others, what view had you formed about her temperament and
01:27:33 you formed about her temperament and personality? Um
01:27:36 Um that she was feisty, committed, um and was not happy about being in the cordon, as I wasn't very happy.
01:27:48 I wasn't very happy. Had you ever witnessed her being violent? No. Had anybody ever told you that she had been violent? No.
01:27:55 No. Had you ever witnessed her committing a criminal offense? No, we didn't know each other that well. Had anybody ever told you that she committed a criminal offense? No.
01:28:08 You've described her feelings and yours at being contained. Would it be fair to say that people within the cordon were generally tired and frustrated? Yes. Yes, yes, sir.
01:28:21 Yes, yes, sir. Is it right that Ms. Austin asked to leave
01:28:25 leave the cordon several times? You'd have to ask her, sir. I I don't I can't remember that. Did you know that she had a baby? No.
01:28:37 No. Definitely not, no.
01:28:40 Did you hear anything to the effect she might have to pick up her child from a crash? I don't recall that, no.
01:28:49 When you were in the cordon, was there any access to toilets? Uh no, not that I saw.
01:28:57 How did the police handle people with special needs? No idea. I I didn't see anything like that, sir.
01:29:08 that, sir. How long were you contained for?
01:29:13 Felt like a long time. Um
01:29:15 Um Would you
01:29:16 Would you couldn't say for sure, sir, but I would obviously go by If it was suggested that you were contained for 7 hours, does that sound about right?
01:29:27 To me personally, it did not feel that like it was that long, but we were certainly there for a long time, but again, we are talking a very long time ago.
01:29:36 ago. Did you stay within the cordon until it was finally lifted? Uh I, from memory, believe I made one attempt
01:29:45 attempt um quite a uh not sort of not not a real attempt to push past the police officer as some people were, but I didn't sort of get into any kind of tussle or anything like that. I was
01:29:58 of tussle or anything like that. I was accept my fate, and I think I sat down and tried to get some rest.
01:30:03 rest. Is that a yes to my question? You stayed till the end? Yes, sir.
01:30:09 Did the size of the cordon remain the same or was it tightened? I think it remained the same, sir. You sure?
01:30:19 sure? I
01:30:20 I I can't remember if I'm honest, but I don't I don't recall um other than when we were then funneled out of it
01:30:28 out of it um cuz I'm sure we were at the end of it. We didn't weren't just allowed to disperse. I'm sure we were funneled out. Um but I I don't recall feeling especially uncomfortable that we were
01:30:39 especially uncomfortable that we were being hemmed in and closed up on. How densely packed was the area of containment? I was I was able to sit down. I was able to stretch out. Um to around me it was
01:30:52 to stretch out. Um to around me it was okay.
01:30:54 okay. Did you consider the parameters of the cordon were at any time dangerous? No, didn't feel that way at all.
01:31:03 Are you able to help with whether or not Miss Austin contacted the MP Tony Benn from within the the cordon? No idea, sir. No. Or spoke to lawyers?
01:31:15 No idea, sir. No. Or spoke to lawyers? No, I don't remember that. Can you recall whether there were efforts on the spot to collect names of people who might be interested in litigation against the MPS or as acting
01:31:28 litigation against the MPS or as acting as witnesses in any litigation that was to be brought to challenge the cordon? I don't recall that. I don't recall being asked.
01:31:38 Did the Socialist Party later send an email around after the event to members inviting
01:31:45 inviting or seeking claimants to join the action seeking witnesses? If they did, I do not recall that. Might they have done? Entirely possible, yes.
01:31:56 Entirely possible, yes. Can you recall whether or not you had any interest in doing so? I absolutely not.
01:32:04 During the course of May day 2001, did you relay any intelligence during the course of the day in real time? Not to my recollection, no.
01:32:16 Not to my recollection, no. Is that something you might do on a demonstration? Yes, but only if it was um safe for me to do so. And I think I would have been in company of people
01:32:29 would have been in company of people to make that difficult.
01:32:32 Did you tell your managers that you had been contained? Yes, I believe I did.
01:32:42 And what was their reaction? Nothing that I recall. I think it was viewed as um operational requirement. These things happen.
01:32:55 Did you see any uh
01:33:00 uh violence from within the cordon? Not that I recall, no. You've mentioned people trying to push through the cordon. Yeah. Did you see anything
01:33:11 Did you see anything more forceful than that? Nothing comes to mind. Nothing I recall.
01:33:21 Did you see any disorder at all within the cordon? Um other than what I've just described uh within the cordon No.
01:33:32 cordon No. Can we go to tab B103 MPS2071194?
01:33:45 Uh this is a document which is said to be a chronological list of your deployment between January 2000 and December 2006.
01:33:56 December 2006. Could we go to page three, please?
01:34:00 We go to the penultimate paragraph, May 2001.
01:34:05 2001. Mhm.
01:34:06 Mhm. Give you a moment to read that.
01:34:21 Is that factually accurate?
01:34:28 I think so, sir. Yes, reading that. The disturbances that took place at the rear of Oxford Street, behind John Lewis and Selfridges.
01:34:40 Selfridges. Were you an eyewitness to those disturbances? Um
01:34:46 Um I believe I was. I I recall hearing glass breaking and obviously lots of noise
01:34:52 noise um and seeing people running around, but we were not actually there. We could just see what was happening. Was that before
01:35:02 before or after
01:35:04 or after the cordon? I can't remember, sir. Sorry.
01:35:07 Sorry. Or during it? I I am sorry, I can't remember.
01:35:14 I'm trying to establish really whether you are reporting what you've been told or whether you've seen it. And I'm getting the impression your evidence is you saw it from a distance. Yes.
01:35:30 Can we take that down now, please? Could we go to tab C81 MPS 305827?
01:35:43 This is a 4th of May 2001, and we're back in Bermondsey. Okay. Um uh this report is about plans for a National Front March on Saturday the
01:35:55 National Front March on Saturday the 12th
01:35:57 12th of May.
01:35:58 of May. You will see that you've reported No Platform are planning a number of actions to combat the National Front March scheduled for that day. And the second paragraph
01:36:11 And the second paragraph um
01:36:12 um talks about uh plans including a hope of being able to ambush National Front activists. Can you help us with any detail you
01:36:25 Can you help us with any detail you recall of the planning for this event? Um
01:36:31 Um from memory, I feel we would have had a meet up
01:36:35 meet up a couple of evenings before for as many people who could attend to discuss uh tactics for the day. Um
01:36:45 Um generally that would have been the sort of thing that that took place and then you would get together on the day of the uh action. Did you attend on the day? I believe I did.
01:36:56 did. Um
01:36:58 Um please forgive me. It may be that this is the occasion I'm talking about the melee with police officers. Um I know we talked about a previous Bermondsey action. What happened?
01:37:10 What happened? Um
01:37:12 Um we didn't
01:37:14 we didn't find anyone around Liverpool Street or the environs. Um we definitely traveled down to Bermondsey where police lines were already in place. Um my recollection the National Front
01:37:26 Um my recollection the National Front had their march. Um there was obviously uh the group of No Platform activists, but there were also other protesters. Um and as I say, we attempted to break
01:37:38 Um and as I say, we attempted to break through police lines and there were lots of wrestling matches of which I was involved in one with a uniform officer and then got wiped back over.
01:37:47 over. Uh I think they had the barriers out and people were jumping them.
01:37:52 And that was where I said I saw other associates uh doing similar. Beyond pushing and shoving with the police, was there any more serious violence?
01:38:04 violence? I didn't engage in any so but you know, again, a a situation like that, if you're being if you're having a wrestling match with a uniform police officer, you're not always, I'm afraid,
01:38:15 officer, you're not always, I'm afraid, looking at what your associates are doing.
01:38:16 doing. Understood. Did you witness any violence above pushing and shoving? I witnessed wrestling matches taking place and no.
01:38:27 wrestling matches taking place and no. Can we take that down now, please? Uh can we have up from tab C318 MPS305972?
01:38:42 This is a report dated the 21st of May, yeah, 2001. Uh and it's about events on the 19th
01:38:54 Uh and it's about events on the 19th of May, 2001, in and around Hackney Town Hall. Could we have the text expanded, please?
01:39:10 Give you a moment to read that.
01:39:16 Mhm.
01:39:47 Yes, sir. Is it right you were present on that occasion?
01:39:50 occasion? Yes, sir.
01:39:52 Yes, sir. Uh first of all in the Samuel Pepys pub. Uh yes, sir. Yeah. Uh with your activist associates. Yes.
01:40:01 With about 10 or 12 of them, would that be fair? They Yeah, there was a sizable group.
01:40:07 group. Was the woman we are calling Lindsey uh part of that group? Um yes, I think so. And was she just back from America? I couldn't remember.
01:40:19 I couldn't remember. And uh was she friends with Joe Batty? Um
01:40:25 Um I'm not sure about Mr. Batty, no. Other activists Friends with the uh activist we are calling Alfred? Uh yeah, I believe so. Uh particularly good friends with
01:40:36 Uh particularly good friends with Alfred's partner? Yes. Uh and with Fauzia? Uh yeah, I believe so, yes.
01:40:45 Uh did you speak to her? Probably.
01:40:49 Probably. Repeatedly? I spoke to lots of people, um couldn't say more than that. Uh
01:41:00 Uh presumably it's part and parcel of your job to get to know people. Yes, indeed, yeah. And a new face you'd want to get to know? Yeah, but at the same time I was also
01:41:12 Yeah, but at the same time I was also there talking to There were a lot of people
01:41:14 people I'm not suggesting you weren't speaking to other people as well. Um what I'm giving you an opportunity to address is the suggestion that you spoke to her on on a number of occasions that
01:41:26 to her on on a number of occasions that evening.
01:41:27 evening. Yeah, I As I say, I can't say 100% yes, of course. And would it have been clear uh to Lindsey
01:41:37 Lindsey from what you said and from the company that you were keeping that you were political.
01:41:45 Yeah. Yes, believe it would.
01:41:49 What happened at the town hall?
01:41:53 From memory, um
01:41:55 um there was an awful lot of drink drink consumed that night. Um at a certain point in the night, quite later on,
01:42:04 later on, um I think it might have even been kicking out time. Um there were large groups milling in the square.
01:42:11 square. Um and at some stage, uh there had been, I think, a police serial there. Um and there had been lots of talk about occupying the town hall.
01:42:23 occupying the town hall. I think at some point the police withdrew and an attempt was made to get in, which was successful. Did you uh report uh the plans Yes. to occupy the town
01:42:36 uh the plans Yes. to occupy the town hall?
01:42:37 hall? Yes, but it was very short notice, sir. Um I think I sent a text message or something like that. So, before or after the police serial was withdrawn? I can't remember, sir.
01:42:49 I can't remember, sir. Did you go into the town hall? No. It was occupied, wasn't it? Yeah, oh yes. Yeah. If you didn't go into the town hall, does it follow you won't be able to assist us as to whether or not there was
01:43:01 assist us as to whether or not there was any damage done inside? Oh, it was obvious there was damage, um I think, from memory, um the town hall has steps. I was definitely up onto the steps, but never went through the doors, and you
01:43:12 never went through the doors, and you could hear the sounds of damage being done, but I didn't physically see anybody doing anything. There were people up on a balcony.
01:43:21 balcony. Um
01:43:23 Um And what was the police response to this event?
01:43:27 event? Um
01:43:29 Um I think fairly swift. I think the the serial, as it's called, um returned fairly swiftly and tried to Well, I know it tried to force us off the steps cuz
01:43:40 it tried to force us off the steps cuz in my case, they were successful. And then I I believe further units were requested and arrived because we were cleared away. What degree of force were the police using to do this?
01:43:51 using to do this? Um batons. Um I personally received a little bit of tear gas in the face cuz I was on the steps. Um so
01:44:02 Um so I would say reasonable level of force, really, given the circumstances. And were you playing in role and being less than
01:44:13 playing in role and being less than cooperative with the police? And how cooperative with police were your Socialist Party colleagues being? Well, we were all sort of not moving, cheering, shouting.
01:44:27 not moving, cheering, shouting. Um so, I would say we were not really being very cooperative.
01:44:33 Is it right your cover accommodation at this stage was in Hackney? Yes, sir. Did you go back to your accommodation to wash away the tear gas? Um I wouldn't have washed it away cuz I knew full well
01:44:45 have washed it away cuz I knew full well that the worst thing you can do is try and wash tear gas off. Um I remember um just trying to open up my clothing and trying to get it to blow away. Um
01:44:56 and trying to get it to blow away. Um I think one of the people that I was with had water thrown on him um and it reacted with the tear gas and set it all off again. Um I certainly
01:45:07 I certainly lost interest in proceedings very quickly at that point. Well, because you've been gassed. Yes.
01:45:16 So, just to be clear, did you go back to your accommodation? Yes, I did, yeah. Did you go back there with other people? No.
01:45:24 No. Not that night. Lynn's is evidence uh is that
01:45:30 that you and another woman went back
01:45:34 went back to your accommodation. No, sir. Not not on that night. Not at all, sir. No. You certain about that? I'm pretty I I've just been tickets.
01:45:51 Now, if we look back at
01:45:56 at the report, Yeah. it says the disorder seemed to have been pre-planned by anarchist agitators. Mhm.
01:46:06 Mhm. Uh
01:46:07 Uh what was the basis for assessing that it was pre-planned as opposed to opportunistic? Um
01:46:15 Um my reasons were for that were that obviously when you were going through what happened on the night, there had been discussion that this had been an idea that had been put out um obviously by the party
01:46:28 put out um obviously by the party um who was at who was referred to there. Um
01:46:32 Um and that it had been an idea that had come about whilst everyone was still in the public house in the Samuel Peeps. And arranged to coincide with the closing down party at the Samuel Peeps.
01:46:44 closing down party at the Samuel Peeps. That suggests that the arrangement was before the night in question. That I'm afraid I don't know, but I know that it was spoken about in the pub. Um and again,
01:46:55 and again, I think it was quite a warm night cuz I recall being outside of the pub drinking for quite a large part of the time. And you suggested that the
01:47:06 And you suggested that the the real problem was the withdrawal of the police serial. From what I saw, that's what it felt like. It was like um whilst the police were there, people were being mindful. As soon as
01:47:17 people were being mindful. As soon as they left, um I later learned I think they went for their refreshments, but I, um,
01:47:23 um, it it then the mood changed because obviously the opportunity was presenting itself.
01:47:32 That sounds like an opportunistic, um,
01:47:38 um, action. Is that fair or not? At that moment it was, but the talk had taken place prior to that, so, um, you know, whilst we were in the pub and outside the pub, this was doing the
01:47:49 outside the pub, this was doing the rounds,
01:47:51 rounds, you know,
01:47:52 you know, the town hall's going to get occupied. Um,
01:47:55 Um, as I say, for the whole time that I was there watching the the line of police officers,
01:48:00 officers, nothing took place, but I sent a message in some shape or form to my handler that night prior to the police withdrawal saying,
01:48:11 prior to the police withdrawal saying, "They're planning this." Um, so to me, yeah, it became opportunist as soon as the police left, but the intention was there, the idea was there.
01:48:24 Thank you. Can we take that down now? Sir, I'm about to move to a completely different topic. Would that be a convenient moment to take Certainly it would. the afternoon break? Yes.
01:48:35 10 minutes or quarter of an hour? 10 minutes.
01:51:14 Mhm.
01:55:04 Mhm.
01:56:59 Mhm.
02:00:49 Mhm.
02:02:44 Mhm.
02:04:39 Mhm.
02:06:34 Mhm.
02:08:29 Mhm.
02:10:24 Mhm.
02:12:19 Mhm.
02:16:09 Mhm.
02:17:57 Mr. Siraki, the conversations about
02:18:02 about a fictional girlfriend, was HN53
02:18:07 was HN53 party to those? Your detective inspector. Possibly so. Yes, I can't remember. We know that you were not given a fictional
02:18:19 know that you were not given a fictional girlfriend. Where was it left with you? By which I mean, were you given any guidance as to how to deal with
02:18:31 how to deal with the matchmaking attempts of those you were mixing with? No guidance as such, sir. Um,
02:18:40 Um, I think
02:18:41 I think to refer back to uh, earlier things I said, "You're a big boy, work it out." Um, is what what came back amongst after relating
02:18:54 what came back amongst after relating those experiences. Um,
02:18:57 Um, there was, as I say, I can only describe it as merriment. It was found to be amusing.
02:19:04 Was it the fact that they were trying to set you up with a man that was found amusing?
02:19:12 amusing? I think I think it was a bit of everything, yes, sir. Um, I think it was, well, we've attempted with females, we've attempted with this. I I I think, yeah,
02:19:23 attempted with this. I I I think, yeah, I think that would have caused amusement.
02:19:28 And to move now to the beginning of your sexual relationship with Lindsay. Yes, sir.
02:19:34 sir. Is it right that either on the 19th of May, the day of the event at Hackney Town Hall, or if not soon after that, uh, that Lindsay proposed a date?
02:19:46 uh, that Lindsay proposed a date? It it
02:19:47 It it definitely would have been uh, after the Hackney Town Hall event. Did you go on a date with her soon afterwards?
02:19:58 soon afterwards? Yeah, I I can't remember exactly when, but yes. So, she thinks it might have been on or around the 26th of May or thereabouts. She has a recollection of being sacked for failing to attend a shift because she was with you.
02:20:11 shift because she was with you. I
02:20:12 I I don't know. Um as I say, with dates I'm not fantastic, I'm afraid, but yes. Would you disagree with around a week after the Hackney Town Hall incident?
02:20:24 From memory, it felt like it might have been longer, but I don't A little longer or a lot longer? A little longer, but I cannot um say for
02:20:35 A little longer, but I cannot um say for sure.
02:20:36 sure. Uh
02:20:37 Uh when you had the date with Lindsey, presumably you had a good conversation with her. Yes. Yes, of course. And was it clear to you that she was a
02:20:49 And was it clear to you that she was a socialist? Um
02:20:52 Um yes, I believe so. And what sort of things did you talk about?
02:20:57 about? I
02:20:58 I I can't remember, so they would have been conversations around uh politics, of course. Um
02:21:05 Um but other than that, I don't really recall. Mhm.
02:21:12 And did you have sex with Lindsey that evening?
02:21:16 evening? I believe so, yes, sir.
02:21:20 Before you had sex with Lindsey that evening,
02:21:24 evening, did you give any thought to the fact that you were an undercover police officer?
02:21:31 officer? Uh yes, I did. Um however, at that time, I felt in an extremely difficult place. Um
02:21:41 Um and I was struggling. Um why did you feel that you were in a difficult place? Because I felt like I wasn't really getting any support from my back office.
02:21:53 getting any support from my back office. That my
02:21:55 That my situation was not being taken seriously. In what way were you struggling? Um well, I told said previously um I'd had a number of different people
02:22:06 I'd had a number of different people introduced to me.
02:22:11 I'm struggling, I'll put it crudely, to keep your trousers on. That's one way of putting it, so yes.
02:22:19 It's in my way of putting it, but yes. How would you put it? Um that
02:22:25 that I had to do something to maintain my cover and
02:22:29 cover and and as I say the good old you're a big boy, you can work it out was sort of used to bounce around. And that to me was something that I needed to do.
02:22:41 needed to do. Not proud of it at all. But needed to do? Yeah. To help maintain my cover.
02:22:48 my cover. To get people just to leave me alone a little bit from from that world so that I could concentrate on the work that I had in hand. There were single people in the
02:22:59 There were single people in the Socialist Party, weren't there? I think so, yeah.
02:23:04 You could have continued to play the role of the single man, couldn't you? Absolutely. Um it was felt to me like it was getting harder and harder.
02:23:19 Did you consider
02:23:23 when you decided to have sex with Lindsey that you were deceiving her as to who you really were? Um I don't think at the time I did, sir.
02:23:35 Um I don't think at the time I did, sir. Um subsequently, yes. Why didn't you think about it at the time?
02:23:43 time? Uh I would suggest a a combination of things. Um the
02:23:50 the that world that I inhabited um was uh there was an awful lot of uh alcohol consumed.
02:23:56 consumed. There were lots of other things that could influence you and that kind of thing. And I think that coupled with what had happened
02:24:07 coupled with what had happened with my back office and my requests um
02:24:11 um I was sort of felt at the time that I was running out of options.
02:24:17 But presumably between agreeing to go on a date with Lindsey and going on the date with Lindsey Lindsey there would have been sober moments in which to
02:24:28 have been sober moments in which to reflect on how you should behave. Absolutely. And I did not attend that date with the intention of trying to sleep with her. But
02:24:38 But at the same time as I say it it happened. And you know. If you attended the date without the intention to sleep with her, why did you?
02:24:54 Combination of things as I've said, alcohol,
02:24:57 alcohol, um
02:24:58 um my own as I say state of mind at the time
02:25:02 time that I felt pressured that I needed to try and do something. Um
02:25:08 Um I as I say, I think I think that's what was occupying my mind at the time. Was one of the reasons that you did not give consideration to the fact you were
02:25:19 give consideration to the fact you were deceiving Lindsey as to who you really were was because you were not giving her any thought. No, that's that's No, that's not correct, sir. Um
02:25:31 No, that's not correct, sir. Um But if you had been giving her any thought, you wouldn't have deceived her, would you? Well, again, I I disagree with that. Um as I say
02:25:40 as I say um
02:25:41 um this was a very nice person. Um Um,
02:25:46 Um Um, and things got out of hands and it went too far. I I acknowledge that. Um, and I'm sorry about that. But, um, at that time that was my state of mind.
02:25:57 at that time that was my state of mind. For your benefit. Yes, it it did benefit me, yes, sir. And without regard to the deception of her.
02:26:09 I I would agree with that, yes, at that time. And it went further than deceiving her as to who you really were, because you were also deceiving her as to what
02:26:20 you were also deceiving her as to what you really were, weren't you? Um,
02:26:26 police officer. Yes, that my role Well, I was a police officer, but my role was you do not reveal these things.
02:26:38 And you had met her in company with people
02:26:42 people who were being pretty obstructive to the police at Hackney, weren't you? Uh, yes, yes, that occasion at Hackney, yes, sir. You knew she was a socialist. Yes, sir.
02:26:54 And might well hold anti-police views. Um,
02:26:59 Um, yeah,
02:27:00 yeah, that's fair to say, sir.
02:27:03 And your actions deprived Lindsey of the ability to make an informed choice as to whether or not to have sex with Detective Constable Carlo Seracchi.
02:27:16 Detective Constable Carlo Seracchi. Um,
02:27:18 Um, I would only partially agree with that, sir. I other than a very big thing that I did keep that from her. I did try and remain
02:27:28 remain myself. Um, but yes, I deceived her. I cannot get away from that. She would not have consented to sex if she had known who and what you
02:27:41 sex if she had known who and what you really were. I can't answer that, sir.
02:27:46 It's obvious, isn't it? Not in every case, no.
02:27:52 What you did in having sex with Lindsey was quite wrong, wasn't it? Yes, I've already said that.
02:28:01 Did you give any consideration to your wife? Yes, I felt extremely guilty. I still feel extremely guilty.
02:28:13 feel extremely guilty. Um
02:28:14 Um It is something that I don't think I will ever be able to forget. Did you give that consideration to your wife before or after having sex with Lindsey?
02:28:29 That's definitely after. I think before um These are not I don't fully understand
02:28:40 I don't fully understand the question. Why do you only think you gave thought to your wife before?
02:28:51 before? Of course I I would have thought about her, sir, but as I say, at that time and with what I was doing um I I
02:29:02 I I felt that I needed to do something and I unfortunately um did that. Had you told your wife that you'd got to the stage where you felt you needed to do something?
02:29:14 you needed to do something? No.
02:29:16 No. Why not?
02:29:19 I don't know, really. Difficult conversation to have, I would imagine. Very difficult, wouldn't it? Indeed, yeah. And she would not want you to have done it. Absolutely not, no. So, why did you do it?
02:29:30 why did you do it? Well, as I've said, sir, um the opportunity was there. I had things going through my mind. It was convenient, and this was
02:29:41 convenient, and this was a nice person.
02:29:46 Did you tell anyone in the SDS what had happened
02:29:51 happened at the time? Not that I can remember, sir. No.
02:29:57 Can I take it that you would have remembered? I would have had it. Yes, absolutely. Sorry. Yes. Why didn't you tell anybody? We we didn't really talk about these things. As I say, other than
02:30:08 things. As I say, other than conversations with supervisors sort of in later years. Um
02:30:14 Um at that time. As I'd understood your evidence from this morning, HN58 had made it clear that if anything happened, you'd need to discuss it. Yep.
02:30:25 Yep. Can I take it from your evidence that you ignored that requirement? Yes, sir. I I don't recall having had any discussions like that. So, yes.
02:30:38 any discussions like that. So, yes. And is that because you were fearful of getting into trouble? It would have played a part, yes. Um
02:30:44 Um Or being told to stop the relationship? Absolutely. Um but I would also I wanted to continue in my deployment.
02:30:58 Did you tell your wife afterwards? Not at that stage, no. When did you tell your wife? I can't remember exactly, sir. Can you help us with a year? No. Um
02:31:10 help us with a year? No. Um towards the end of my deployment. 2004, possibly.
02:31:14 possibly. Again, I can't be exact on that. Why didn't you tell her? Um
02:31:22 Um Well, for for the reasons I've already said, I I wanted to continue in the work I was doing. I obviously felt guilty about what I had done.
02:31:34 More than that, I can't really help you, sir. What would it have taken to stop you crossing the line and deceiving Lindsey into sex?
02:31:48 Um someone to support me from outside of the house as it were that I could use for that kind of uh thing.
02:31:59 uh thing. I think that What What do you mean by that kind of thing?
02:32:02 thing? Um I I mean I think I might have said a bit of terminology this morning, but an office to support me as
02:32:13 as uh
02:32:14 uh a girlfriend.
02:32:21 You continued in the relationship. Mhm. Why didn't you leave it as a one-night stand, a mistake which you should not repeat?
02:32:34 I can't recall, sir. Um I think it just made sense to me at the time.
02:32:40 time. Um I was in a very unique set of circumstances. And so it continued.
02:32:50 So can we be clear as to what you mean by that? Because it suited you? Yes, absolutely. I would agree with that.
02:33:00 that. You were getting company.
02:33:03 company. Yes.
02:33:06 And sex. Uh yes. And love. Um yes.
02:33:16 Presumably you got to know her better and better. Um I I think I did, but um Um, I
02:33:26 Um, I you know, as we will go on to later, right? I I did not live with this person. I did not see this person every night. Things like that. Um, so but yes, of course, you're you're going
02:33:38 but yes, of course, you're you're going to get to know someone. She was single. Uh, I believe so. She was a member of Youth Against Racism in Europe. Um
02:33:49 Um I think she had been, but at that time I don't I don't know. Yes, if she was if she says she was, yes, of course. Raised funds for YRE.
02:34:02 Raised funds for YRE. I don't know. Can you recall when you first knew about the connection with YRE? No, I can't, sir. Um I I think I may have been told about it
02:34:14 I I think I may have been told about it um by Alfred and his partner. But
02:34:20 But more than that. She was no fan of the police. Okay.
02:34:27 Okay. When you say okay I absolutely. Um She'd had bad experiences of the police at demonstrations, hadn't she? That may have been spoken about, yes.
02:34:39 That may have been spoken about, yes. Um, but again that would have been just discussions between us at that time. I was playing a role, I'm afraid.
02:34:50 Well, let's have up P38233.
02:34:56 And whilst that's called up, I can ask you she was a photographer, wasn't she? Yes. I believe so.
02:35:08 If we could see that photograph. Did she show that to you?
02:35:12 to you? Uh, yeah, I think so. That was the perspective from which she saw the police, wasn't it? As someone who attended demonstrations.
02:35:24 who attended demonstrations. My recollection recollection of this sir is that um Lindsey was very proud of this photo. Um I think from memory it was framed uh
02:35:37 from memory it was framed uh and on a wall. Um
02:35:40 Um I I didn't really get into um
02:35:42 um it indicating her perception of the police.
02:35:48 So, it was very clear to you, wasn't it, that she was indeed no fan of the police.
02:35:57 I would No, I I wouldn't say that from from that. So, that is a journalist's photo of police officers at work. And she
02:36:06 she It was made clear to me that obviously they weren't the greatest fans of police, but I I don't really understand how I can talk any about that for Lindsey. Well, the reason I'm asking
02:36:18 for Lindsey. Well, the reason I'm asking these questions is you continued to have sex with Lindsey, didn't you? And you continued a relationship with her. Yes, sir. When you knew full well
02:36:28 full well that she would not have consented to sex if she had known you were an undercover police officer spying on
02:36:39 police officer spying on her colleagues. friends.
02:36:42 friends. I I
02:36:43 I I cannot speak for her, sir. I've got to be honest. Um Did you address your mind to that topic at all? Yes, of course I did. Um Well, what what was your
02:36:54 was your an affair with someone, of course I address my mind to the topic that what I was doing was wrong. Um I'm asking specifically about consent. Did you address your mind to
02:37:05 consent. Did you address your mind to whether or not Lindsey
02:37:08 Lindsey would consent to sleeping with Detective Constable Carlo Saraki. If you put it like that, sir, no, I didn't think about that. And had you put
02:37:21 didn't think about that. And had you put it like that, the answer would have been no, wouldn't it? Again,
02:37:27 Again, I
02:37:28 I can only say that yes, uh that question would have to be raised there, but I get I guess so.
02:37:38 Can we take that down now? She did attend demonstrations, didn't she? I don't recall attending any with her, but That's not what I'm suggesting. She did go to demonstrations, didn't she?
02:37:49 did go to demonstrations, didn't she? Yeah, I think so. And she read what might be described as non-mainstream political literature. Uh yes.
02:38:00 But your It would wouldn't be fair to say your relationship was not really built around politics.
02:38:07 politics. It would be fair to say yes.
02:38:14 Why didn't you stop the relationship? Why did you continue?
02:38:22 I think on reflection, um I was finding it very difficult to stop. Um
02:38:32 for a number of reasons. Are they the reasons you gave me a a little while ago? Were there any more as the relationship developed? No, I don't believe so. I
02:38:43 believe so. I Because you became very complimentary to Lindsey, didn't you? Yes, well, that it's it in my nature to
02:38:54 to be like that. You told her you loved her.
02:38:57 her. I don't recall it, but yes, if she says so.
02:39:00 so. You were the first to say that. You said it before she did. I
02:39:07 I can't remember, sir. It was a long time ago.
02:39:11 Is telling a woman with whom you are in a relationship that you
02:39:18 you love her so inconsequential that you don't remember doing it with Lindsey?
02:39:25 No, it's not inconsequential, sir, but it was a very long time ago. Um
02:39:31 Um I again, I'm I'm not arguing or disputing that, but I'm just saying that it may have happened, but I cannot say for sure.
02:39:42 Did you tell her that you had never met anyone like her? Highly possible, yes.
02:39:49 You bought her thoughtful gifts, didn't you?
02:39:51 you? Uh yes, as I did for other people I was employed.
02:39:57 employed. Uh
02:39:58 Uh single-lens reflex camera?
02:40:02 I recall that, but I do not remember outlaying all of the money for that. I thought that there had been a a bit of a whip round, so to speak, amongst the
02:40:14 whip round, so to speak, amongst the group of friends and that we had purchased it, but I I cannot remember for sure, sir. Bought her books? Possibly. I think I was bought books by her as well. Hand drums?
02:40:29 Yes, possibly, yes. And did you arrange a surprise birthday party for her in Liverpool? Um
02:40:40 Um I did not arrange the party, sir. I believe that was her closer friends. Um I did travel up with her. Um
02:40:51 Um whether that was in company of the whole group or not, I I cannot recall. Was that around September 2001? Um
02:40:59 Um if you say so, yes. And did you meet Lindsay's mother and brother in Liverpool? Uh entirely possible, yes sir.
02:41:10 Uh entirely possible, yes sir. Did you give any consideration to the additional intrusion into the lives of ordinary members of the public by presenting yourself as Lindsay's
02:41:23 by presenting yourself as Lindsay's boyfriend to her mother and brother entailed?
02:41:29 entailed? At the time, I would say no. Um I
02:41:34 Um I felt that this was part of my deployment um and that I was acting in a way that I'd been told to try and deal with the situation. I think
02:41:45 deal with the situation. I think subsequently in later years, yes. Um
02:41:49 Um but it was too late by then, sir.
02:41:55 You We mentioned a number of times you being told to deal with it. Yes, sir. I just like to be clear. Are you accepting your personal responsibility for
02:42:07 your personal responsibility for deceiving Lindsay or are you seeking No, to- totally your fault. I accept responsibility and and as I've said, I am
02:42:16 am truly sorry. I don't think I will ever be able to express that as much as I can.
02:42:25 In terms of the course of this relationship, Mr. Saraki, would it be fair to describe the birthday party as a watershed moment
02:42:36 birthday party as a watershed moment after which the relationship became more serious?
02:42:42 I I can't remember, sir. It's highly possible, but I I do not remember that. Did the relationship become more serious over time?
02:42:53 I did not think it did. Um I just thought that we were still involved in a relatively casual relationship with each other. Yes, we
02:43:06 relationship with each other. Yes, we would meet up and do things together. I did not take it that seriously because I did not think there was any possibility that I was ever going to live with this person. Um, or that they would even want to live
02:43:18 Um, or that they would even want to live with me.
02:43:19 with me. Um,
02:43:21 Um, yeah. Did you give any consideration to how she might be feeling about the development of the relationship? Um,
02:43:30 Um, I like to think I did, but again, I cannot
02:43:35 cannot remember entirely, but um, I'm sure there were discussions, definitely. What do you mean discussions? Ab- about where we were going, about the relationship. Can you recall the
02:43:48 relationship. Can you recall the gist of those conversations? Um,
02:43:56 not entirely. I I do recall that I think it was made quite clear to me that um,
02:44:03 um, we probably shouldn't should not live together.
02:44:07 together. Um, I think it
02:44:11 was made clear that there were
02:44:15 other people that that might be involved in relationships, and hence I just thought, "Well, this is fun. Um, this is helping me in a
02:44:26 Um, this is helping me in a operational way, but
02:44:28 but I'm doing my best to be as decent an individual as I can be, given the fact that I'm sort of lying to this person.
02:44:39 person. Um,
02:44:39 Um, That's quite a difficult feat to pull off, isn't it? yes, completely. Completely so. When you say other relation- other people in other relationships, what do
02:44:50 people in other relationships, what do do mean by that? Well, we we we would talk about exes and things like that. Um and and that came apparent in conversations we had. By perpetuating
02:45:02 By perpetuating the relationship, you are leading her down the garden path, aren't you? I accept that. Yes, sir. Did you give that any thought? Yeah, I I
02:45:13 Yeah, I I regularly. I I still do. Why didn't you stop?
02:45:17 stop? Um it's very easy to just say why I didn't you stop, but at the time it it was very difficult for me to do. I can't give you an exact reason why, but there there were the reasons I have
02:45:28 there there were the reasons I have spoken about. Um Because it worked well for you. Yes. Yes, of course.
02:45:37 Lindsey's evidence is that you gave her a key to your cover accommodation. Is that right? I can't remember, sir. I don't think I did, but I can't remember. Possibly.
02:45:49 Possibly. Would it be right to say that after the in the phase of the relationship after the surprise birthday party, you would see each other approximately two to three nights a week?
02:46:02 two to three nights a week? I I don't remember that, sir. Um I would would not think that was the case. What is your recollection? I can't can't remember. Once, twice,
02:46:13 I can't can't remember. Once, twice, depending on the week, depending on what I was doing in terms of politicalism and also in my sort real life, for want of a better word. Would you usually see her at the
02:46:24 Would you usually see her at the weekend?
02:46:26 weekend? Depended if we were on an activity or not.
02:46:29 not. A political activity. And did you see her both alone and also socializing with others? Yes, sir.
02:46:41 Yes, sir. Would it be right to say that you stayed mostly at her place, but sometimes at yours.
02:46:48 yours. Um my recollection is that when we would stay together, it was more often than not at her place. I think there may have been one, possibly two occasions. Um
02:47:00 been one, possibly two occasions. Um the place I lived in at that time was not very pleasant.
02:47:08 Would it be fair to say that early in the relationship you were having sex about once a week? Yeah.
02:47:16 Yeah. Yes.
02:47:17 Yes. Then later on perhaps two or three times a week. Uh yes, sir. Um I I didn't keep count, but entirely possible, yes, but Essentially, whenever
02:47:30 possible, yes, but Essentially, whenever you saw one another. Uh yes, but as I said previously, it would depend on other
02:47:37 other um
02:47:38 um things that were going on.
02:47:42 Is it right that she used a natural method of contraception? I can't remember, sir. I I I believe we always used a sheath of some sort, but again
02:47:53 used a sheath of some sort, but again um
02:47:55 um yeah. I mean, it's quite an important detail, isn't it, contraception? Absolutely, sir, but Did you give any thought to the risk of fathering a child in a deceitful relationship?
02:48:06 in a deceitful relationship? Completely. Hence, as I say, I believe we used a sheath, but I'm I'm not here to dispute what other people may have said.
02:48:17 dispute what other people may have said. Her evidence is that she is allergic to latex, and although you may have used a sheath
02:48:26 sheath a little at the start of the relationship, you generally didn't for that reason. Might she be right about that? No, I don't I don't believe so, sir. No.
02:48:39 I I want you to go into details, but did you know that Lindsay had had a painful breakup in the past? Uh yes, I believe that was spoken about.
02:48:56 Did you give any consideration to the fact that you were obviously going to have to break up with her at some point and cause her more pain?
02:49:07 some point and cause her more pain? Uh yes, I did, sir. And what were your reflections on that thinking?
02:49:13 thinking? Quite
02:49:14 Quite how unpleasant a human being I was at that stage. It was the world I was getting myself into.
02:49:21 into. Did you tell Lindsay that your sister lived in the country but was trapped in an unhappy marriage? Uh entirely possible, yes, um cuz it
02:49:33 Uh entirely possible, yes, um cuz it would have formed part of my legend.
02:49:36 And that was not in fact the truth about your sister. It wasn't. Uh no, it was part of my legend, sir. Did you tell her that you had a son?
02:49:48 Did you tell her that you had a son? Uh I think I did, yes. Again, part of my legend.
02:49:52 legend. And you showed her a photograph of the child? Entirely, I think I did keep a photo.
02:49:59 photo. Is that a photograph of your real son? I I think it was a photo of him as a baby. Um again,
02:50:07 Um again, I would have checked all of this as to what I could have and not having my flat with my back office. And I think a cover a photo of a baby I had was about so big was not considered
02:50:19 had was about so big was not considered a problem. He He didn't look like the baby at that stage as far as I can recall.
02:50:24 recall. Being very careful about anonymity, please, uh which manager are you saying authorized you to have a photograph of your real son in um
02:50:36 in um your accommodation? I I can't remember, sir. We These were conversations that would have taken place with the back office. Did you tell Lindsey that you had lost contact with the boy's mother?
02:50:48 contact with the boy's mother? Uh, entirely possible, yes. And did you ask her for advice about what to do about that? Well, we we would certainly have spoken about it because this formed a part of
02:51:00 about it because this formed a part of my legend. And did you receive advice from her that you must reconnect with her for the sake of the boy? I'm sure I did, yes.
02:51:13 boy? I'm sure I did, yes. Would it be fair to say that she was very empathetic about the fantasy that you were describing? Absolutely, sir. The As I've said, whilst I regret and
02:51:26 As I've said, whilst I regret and apologize for all these things, this was a very a nice person. And
02:51:33 And unfortunately, um, she met someone who wasn't such a nice person.
02:51:40 The practical effect of telling these lies
02:51:45 lies to a very nice person was that you were weaponizing empathy.
02:51:54 Oh, sir. An interesting way to put it, but yes, sir.
02:52:00 sir. For your own benefit. Yes, sir. I was an undercover police officer um, deployed to do a task in. And unfortunately, that's what happened.
02:52:11 that's what happened. DCI
02:52:13 DCI Dell, is it right that he assumed command of the SDS in approximately the summer or early autumn of 2001?
02:52:28 My my timeline, the way I would describe it, um,
02:52:31 it, um, I
02:52:33 I deployed out to Italy for legend building purposes around that time, and Mr. Dell was in post at that time. So. Sorry, are we talking 2000 or 2001?
02:52:46 So. Sorry, are we talking 2000 or 2001? Because you deployed in 2000. Uh I was deployed in 2000, but I went out as part of my uh legend building in 2001.
02:52:58 of my uh legend building in 2001. Um and I think uh Mr. Dell was in post by then. So, yes.
02:53:07 Does he take over immediately, or is there a phased arrival and handover of responsibility? I can't recall, sir.
02:53:17 Is it right that he assumes command whilst you are in a sexual relationship with Lindsey?
02:53:28 in a sexual relationship with Lindsey? I I can't I can't remember, sir, honestly. Um
02:53:33 that's what he's saying or has been said, entirely possible, but I cannot remember.
02:53:40 Was one reason why the arrival of DCI Dell was memorable Mhm. uh that uh he made clear at a very early
02:53:53 uh that uh he made clear at a very early stage of his command that sexual relationships were prohibited. I I don't recall that, sir. I'm sorry.
02:54:04 I I don't recall that, sir. I'm sorry. What was DCI Dell's public line to the unit on that subject? I don't think I ever had that
02:54:15 I don't think I ever had that conversation with him, sir, until a a few years later. Um certainly his predecessor, but again, it was very much um a sort of informal discussion.
02:54:28 A number of witnesses to the inquiry from the SDS have said that a feature of DCI Dell's arrival was that he made clear
02:54:38 clear sexual relationships were prohibited. Is it your evidence that you did not know that?
02:54:44 that? I recall
02:54:45 I recall Mr. Dell arriving and I think there had been some issues which he sat us down and spoke about it. I didn't
02:54:53 I didn't pay that much attention to it. What issues are we talking about? Well, um you've spoken about relationships but also officers misbehaving, doing things that might be
02:55:04 misbehaving, doing things that might be considered serious offenses and things like that. But again, I I was not party to everything that was going on. What did he say about sexual relationships?
02:55:15 he say about sexual relationships? I
02:55:16 I think he would have said that the party line was not to happen. And that if there were any relationships going on, they should stop. I don't recall that, but entirely
02:55:28 I don't recall that, but entirely possible, yes. Would it follow from the prohibition that he made that that is what should have happened? Um yes. Yes, of course.
02:55:41 Um yes. Yes, of course. Did the tradecraft manual remain in use whilst you were deployed, to your knowledge? It It was definitely in the cupboard, so to speak. Um
02:55:52 Um it was definitely something that I would have referred to in the early days and in those times. 2000, 2001, yes. Was it uh amended?
02:56:06 My memory is that as things might happen if officers had experienced something, it would get amended and added to. Do you know
02:56:17 amended and added to. Do you know whether or not um the section on sexual relationships was amended after you deployed.
02:56:25 I don't think it was. No, but again
02:56:29 again I can't say 100% but I don't believe it was.
02:56:33 was. Were you in a relationship with Lindsey in circumstances where DCI Dell had clearly prohibited sexual relationships?
02:56:46 Um yes, I I would say probably I was. Yes.
02:56:50 Yes. So can I take it that you simply ignored him?
02:56:55 him? Um
02:56:57 Um I think I was mindful of it, sir. Um but yes, ultimately I did ignore. In what way were you mindful of him? I
02:57:06 I I feel felt like I was letting the side down, that I was wrong to be doing what I was doing, but as I've said and without wanting this to come across as me trying
02:57:17 wanting this to come across as me trying to put any kind of defense up cuz it isn't defense, well that I I was doing what had to be done. And that
02:57:25 And that I had had conversations with other supervisors because we we did not speak to our inspectors unless we were getting authorization to travel or things like that.
02:57:36 travel or things like that. Um and it was you know
02:57:40 you know as I've said, use your common sense. Would it be fair to say you were knowingly doing wrong?
02:57:49 To me, sir, it did not seem that
02:57:54 that cut and dried. I knew I was doing wrong. Um but I also felt personally um that
02:58:03 um that I was doing what needed to be done at that time. And you were showing a serious failure of willpower by not stopping the relationship. Yes, sir. Failure of judgment, completely.
02:58:16 Failure of judgment, completely. Or telling your managers. Um as I said, I had mentioned it to supervising ranks, but they were not mine inspectors.
02:58:28 mine inspectors. When you say it, that I What was I to do? This is going on.
02:58:33 on. the relationship with Lindsey itself. Uh I did not mention Lindsey by name, sir. No.
02:58:39 No. Or by, you know, description.
02:58:46 Venice. Yes, sir.
02:58:50 You went to Venice with Lindsey Mhm.
02:58:54 Mhm. on a trip
02:58:55 on a trip which spanned the 17th to the 19th of December 2001. Is that right? Um yes, again agree with the dates, but yes, I do recall doing a trip.
02:59:07 do recall doing a trip. Lindsey's evidence is you organized that trip. Is that right? I can't remember, sir, but again, I'm I'm not going to argue with with this.
02:59:18 I'm not going to argue with with this. At short notice? Again, I can't remember. Your idea? Um I I think I had been asked to go out there, sir,
02:59:30 I had been asked to go out there, sir, uh recent political stuff. Um to go out and look around, et cetera. I I think that was a part of my reasons for for going.
02:59:42 for for going. Um
02:59:43 Um but yes, that that was I think based around
02:59:47 around um
02:59:48 um not Venice, another city nearby. Um but yes, Which city nearby? Uh Treviso.
02:59:58 Did you say to Lindsey, "I don't just take anyone to Venice?" I I can't recall, sir, if I did say that.
03:00:06 that. I'm not arguing with it. A show of romantic affection. Uh yeah. Yeah. To emphasize your love for her.
03:00:17 for her. Um
03:00:18 Um Yeah, I I guess so, but I would also say people do
03:00:22 people do little trips away all the time. Um but yes. You were seeking to sweep her off her feet.
03:00:29 her feet. Again, not my words, sir. Um I I I'm not suggesting those were your words. Is that what you were seeking to do? No, sir. I I As I say, I was playing the part of a political activist.
03:00:40 the part of a political activist. And you know, we ended up going away together. To have some fun with her in Venice.
03:00:47 Sure. Did you provide the tickets? I can't remember, sir. Is it likely that you did? Again, sir, I can't remember. Possibly. She says you
03:00:58 can't remember. Possibly. She says you did. Do you disagree? No, sir. I I don't disagree, but I I don't agree. I I can't remember.
03:01:05 remember. The accommodation was a central location, wasn't it? Mhm.
03:01:10 Mhm. In Venice. Would have been in Venice, yeah.
03:01:12 yeah. Single bedroom? Uh yes.
03:01:16 Uh yes. You flew flew out together? Um again, I don't remember, sir. Um I I don't think so, but these are not things I'm afraid to that
03:01:28 these are not things I'm afraid to that stick in my memory. Lynn's is evidence is that it sticks in her memory because she was very affectionate towards you on the plane.
03:01:40 Okay.
03:01:43 As well as somebody might be who had a man who was professing his love to her and telling her that he didn't just take anyone to Venice. Does
03:01:54 didn't just take anyone to Venice. Does that ring any bells? I don't So, there there would have been lots of conversations in that time. Um
03:02:03 Um I I cannot say that I said those words. No.
03:02:10 Do you dispute the proposition that you flew out, just the two of you, to Venice? No, I don't dispute that at all. Um I'm saying that
03:02:23 at all. Um I'm saying that I cannot remember exactly, but I don't dispute it. There were no other
03:02:32 other activists
03:02:34 activists with you.
03:02:36 with you. No, there was not a group. I I from memory, I believe I did meet somebody out there, but again, it it I'm afraid does not figure that
03:02:48 it it I'm afraid does not figure that large in my memories. Who did you meet out there? And be careful about anonymity. Write it down if you need to. Um
03:02:55 Um I can't remember, so I don't even remember names. I think this was, as I said earlier, was some sort of fact-finding thing that I'd been sent out on.
03:03:09 On your own. Well, no, sir. I I I've I've said I was out there with with Lindsey.
03:03:16 Lindsey. But who sent you? Um at the time, um the Socialist Party had a bit to it called the Committee for the Workers International. Uh that was run by a couple of uh older
03:03:27 Uh that was run by a couple of uh older activists
03:03:28 activists who very much liked the fact that I was a fluent Italian speaker and that I had Italian heritage. And as we go through my deployment, you will see that a number of times I
03:03:40 will see that a number of times I deployed out to that country with different people. Uh I understand that. What I'm driving at, though, is the nature of this trip with Lindsey
03:03:51 nature of this trip with Lindsey to Venice. Um this it it The proposition I'm putting to you is this was a romantic getaway, wasn't it? Yes, sir. But, but also intermingled
03:04:03 Yes, sir. But, but also intermingled with
03:04:04 with political sort of activity, you know, looking at uh things out there, looking to meet people, things like that. But, yes, of of course. I'll come back to the detail of that in a moment.
03:04:15 a moment. You showed her around Venice. Yeah, I don't really know Venice, but yes.
03:04:21 yes. You went back to the apartment you were staying in for sex. Uh yes, yeah. Often? Well, we we were there one or two nights, sir, so in that time, yes.
03:04:35 Lindsay's recollection is that you didn't meet any activists uh whilst you were over there. Is she right about that?
03:04:42 that? Well, I've just said that we went out there for uh an enjoyable time, but part of the reason that I had gone out there was because I'd been asked to head out there. Did you meet anybody out there? I
03:04:54 there. Did you meet anybody out there? I can't remember on that occasion. I definitely did on other occasions, yes. I'm only interested in this occasion. Um I On that occasion, I cannot remember. I don't think so.
03:05:05 remember. I don't think so. But,
03:05:07 But, as I say, I went out to Italy quite a bit during my deployment. Detective Sergeant Beales was your backup, wasn't he, on this trip? Um
03:05:16 Um Yep.
03:05:17 Yep. Did you speak to him during the trip? I can't remember. Um I think it was uh
03:05:26 uh tradecraft that we did.
03:05:30 Was he staying in Verona? Uh I don't know. He would have been around that region, yes. And would you have uh spoken to him on your mobile
03:05:41 have uh spoken to him on your mobile phone?
03:05:43 phone? I think so, yes.
03:05:47 Would you have tried to speak uh to him on your mobile phone when Lindsay was not present? Um yes, that would have been the sensible thing, yes.
03:05:58 sensible thing, yes. Lindsay says there was a time when she approached you as you were speaking on your phone and you were saying something to the effect of, "She's not here. She's
03:06:10 to the effect of, "She's not here. She's pissed off with me, mate." Was there a time in the weekend at where she was pissed off with you? I I can't recall, sir.
03:06:22 recall, sir. Did you uh say anything to the effect she was not here, "She's pissed off with me, mate"? I I don't think I did.
03:06:33 don't think I did. Um it seems to me I would necessarily have had that sort of conversation, but I don't I don't know. I can't remember.
03:06:46 What did you tell DS Beales about who you were with? Well,
03:06:55 Well, I I don't know, sir. I I was out there with an activist. You know, I I'm not sure what I told him, really. Did he know you were there with Lindsay?
03:07:07 Did he know you were there with Lindsay? You'd have to ask him, sir. I I can't recall that. Can I take it Well, did you or didn't you say that you were there with your
03:07:19 say that you were there with your activist girlfriend or words to that effect? I I'm sorry, sir. I I I can't shed any light on that. I don't recall. Did DS Beales know that this was
03:07:31 recall. Did DS Beales know that this was a romantic trip for you and Lindsay? I don't think so. Um that's you know, but again, at the same time, I can't really remember the sorts of conversations we would have had at that
03:07:42 conversations we would have had at that time. Surely that's quite an important detail.
03:07:48 Uh unfortunately, it was not for me at that time, sir. Well, can I be clear? Were you deceiving your managers as to this relationship or did they know?
03:08:00 I had made it very clear that I was in a very difficult situation at that time. Was I deceiving DS Bills at that time? I
03:08:11 Was I deceiving DS Bills at that time? I cannot remember. I'm sure at stages, of course I did. Um
03:08:17 Um but again, I had lots of different supervisors, so it's a little bit difficult to think back all that way and
03:08:27 and you know, 100% pinpoint what I said to whom.
03:08:34 I could take you to a series of photographs which show very graphically a romantic weekend away.
03:08:41 away. I've seen them, too. Uh I I don't need to because you accepted that it was.
03:08:47 Lindsey's evidence was that at the time she adored the holiday. Is that a fair uh description of her reaction? I would agree with that, yes. Because
03:08:58 I would agree with that, yes. Because you had swept her off her feet, hadn't you?
03:09:01 you? And
03:09:02 And for that, as I've said, I'm very sorry. She now feels that she was used for sex. That's unsurprising, isn't it? Uh completely unsurprising. Because you
03:09:13 completely unsurprising. Because you were using her I absolutely, yes.
03:09:18 Can we go to the document at tab B 46, MPS 527780?
03:09:45 Go to page two.
03:09:48 page two. This is dated the 30th of November 2001, so a little a little bit before the trip. It's signed by Michael Dell, so we know that
03:10:00 signed by Michael Dell, so we know that certainly before you go to Venice, DCI Dell is in post. Authority to travel abroad. DCI Dell is writing to Commander
03:10:13 DCI Dell is writing to Commander Pierce seeking authority. If we could have the text expanded, and I'll give you a moment to read that. Thank you.
03:10:52 Yes, yes, sir.
03:10:57 Socialist Party activists will travel to Italy.
03:11:05 The reality was you and Lindsey were going to Venice, wasn't it? I I did not write this, sir. Um
03:11:15 Um This was written by my inspector. Um
03:11:19 Um I I had no control over what was written in that document.
03:11:25 Would I be right in thinking you must have sought authority to travel abroad? Yes, of course.
03:11:35 course. Being very careful about anonymity, so which managers did you ask for authority to go
03:11:43 to go to Italy
03:11:45 to Italy in December 2001. Um I cannot remember exact people. It would have been uh initially my sergeant
03:11:56 uh initially my sergeant and then it would have gone up through the chain of command. Did you speak directly to DCI Dell? I do not recall speaking to Mr. Dell about this trip.
03:12:08 about this trip. Um
03:12:08 Um the trip I remember was the previous one referred to there regarding Genoa. Would you
03:12:15 Would you have spoken to DCI Dell? Not Not necessarily. We We would put the request in via our supervisors or cover officers. Um they would generally do the rest. Um
03:12:29 Um they would generally do the rest. Um I
03:12:30 I I don't think I would have even seen this at the time. I would have just been told yes no. So the procedure is you tell your managers that you want to go abroad, you
03:12:41 managers that you want to go abroad, you explain to them why, and then it goes up through the chain of command. As you say, you don't always see the documents. No. I I Obviously I have seen this document now and in the last couple of
03:12:52 document now and in the last couple of years, but um at that time no. This misrepresents the reality because the reality was a romantic trip to Italy with your
03:13:04 romantic trip to Italy with your deceived
03:13:08 woman. I'm very sorry, sir. I I cannot remember um
03:13:14 um what I said. I I would have gone to my sergeants. I would have talked to them. And that would have been then put up through the chain of command. More than that, I I'm not going to beat
03:13:25 More than that, I I'm not going to beat around the bush, um Mr. Saraki. Somebody is deceiving somebody along this line. Are you lying to your managers about the
03:13:36 Are you lying to your managers about the reality of the trip to Venice or are you telling the truth to your sergeant and your sergeant is deceiving
03:13:47 sergeant and your sergeant is deceiving DCI Dell as to the real purpose of the trip?
03:13:52 trip? I am very sorry. I cannot remember, sir. Um
03:13:57 Um I may have said we're going out as in a group of us or may not have. I I I can't remember, sir. I'm I'm very sorry. Did you tell your any of your managers
03:14:09 Did you tell your any of your managers I have
03:14:11 I have uh
03:14:13 a girlfriend in my undercover identity I want to take her for a romantic weekend to Venice. May I do so? No, because it was not I just a romantic
03:14:25 because it was not I just a romantic weekend to to Venice. Um as I say, when I used to get deployed out
03:14:30 out as it's written there following general etc.
03:14:34 etc. Um
03:14:35 Um a big part of my legend was that I had this Italian connection. I understand all of that, but not on this occasion. As I say, sir, I I don't recall. I don't
03:14:46 As I say, sir, I I don't recall. I don't think so.
03:14:47 think so. I think I did go out there to do something political. Whether it was successful or not, um I cannot say. At the very least, there is a deception as to whether it is with
03:15:00 is a deception as to whether it is with another person or persons. Absolutely, but again, I did not write this. So
03:15:08 this. So Well, that's what I'm exploring. Did you deceive your managers as to who you were going with or did they know and did they
03:15:19 or did they know and did they um
03:15:20 um put in
03:15:21 put in inaccurate paperwork? As I said, sir, I can't remember, sir. I'm very sorry.
03:15:34 Can we
03:15:39 now look at page three, please.
03:15:49 This is um a page of the travel documents which puts your name and Sergeant Beal's name in, says the reasons for the request are
03:16:00 in, says the reasons for the request are operational, has the flight details to go to Venice via Verona, Venice and Verona.
03:16:09 Verona. Um
03:16:10 Um and then we see at the bottom the certification and authorization. Can we expand that, please?
03:16:21 I certify this request is in connection with official MPS business. Any additional requirements are set out overleaf. If the cost is recoverable from another organization, I will
03:16:32 from another organization, I will arrange for the cost to be recovered as appropriate and notify the FRM. Signature, DCI Dell, 30th of November '01. Countersigned by
03:16:44 '01. Countersigned by Commander
03:16:46 Commander Pearce.
03:16:47 Pearce. I approve this application in accordance with special notice 34 of '98. I confirm the above details are correct. You knew DCI Dell. We've got a witness
03:16:59 You knew DCI Dell. We've got a witness statement from him. We're going to be hearing from him in the summer. Was he the kind of man who would sign a false false authority for you to travel to Venice?
03:17:13 Not in my opinion, sir, but you would have to ask DCI Dell that question.
03:17:20 We've already heard from Commander Pearce and are likely to hear from him again. Was he the sort of man who would approve
03:17:29 approve a romantic break in Venice for a deceitful sexual relationship if he had known the truth? First things first, so I
03:17:40 First things first, so I still say I was out there maintaining my covert legend and building on that. In answer to the question about Commander Pierce, I did not know him that well.
03:17:55 You seriously suggesting that the trip you went on with Lindsey wasn't So so things can a romantic break, Adder. Things can be different things though,
03:18:07 Things can be different things though, but but absolutely I was also out there and I had been asked, as I referred to the Committee for Workers International, to work on Italy,
03:18:18 Workers International, to work on Italy, to go out there. Mr. Scratchey, if you had told DCI Dell, "I have got a weary girlfriend. I want to take her to Venice to have a nice break with her. I'll I'll
03:18:32 to have a nice break with her. I'll I'll square away the um the technicalities by meeting an activist." Is that something that DCI Dell would have said, "Oh well, right then"?
03:18:44 then"? Again, I don't think so, but you would have to speak to him. And certainly, as I say,
03:18:51 I say, I was maintaining my covert legend. And that's not what happened, is it?
03:18:58 And in terms of You didn't have any such conversation with DCI Dell. Well, no, I went Or with your sergeant, did you? No, so I did. I spoke with my cover officers. That's why this would
03:19:09 cover officers. That's why this would have gone in. And told them that you were going for a a romantic weekend with your weary girlfriend, but would square things away by
03:19:17 by meeting an activist over there. So I've I've I've this again. I I cannot remember exactly what I said, but I would have gone through my line supervisors
03:19:28 supervisors and
03:19:29 and of course, you know, it would be absurd for me to say yes, I told them this, but I was also going out there to maintain my covert legend. Can we have uh page uh
03:19:41 we have uh page uh 10, please?
03:19:48 Uh these are your uh expenses for for 3 nights, and if we go over the page,
03:20:00 says that you flew out from Stansted to Treviso.
03:20:05 Treviso. Fee fair paid, no receipt due to operational circumstances. Is that because uh it was a receipt for a flight for you and Lindsey?
03:20:17 a flight for you and Lindsey? No, sir. This This I think would have been purely for my flight, looking at that.
03:20:23 that. So, did you book two separate flights, one for you and one for Lindsey on the same two separate tickets on the same flight?
03:20:30 flight? I can't recall, sir, the details of the booking, but um again, um
03:20:36 um it would need to be checked, but I don't believe I booked two tickets. Um looking at that,
03:20:43 at that, I don't think that was the case. As a reality, you would not have handed in two tickets because that would have shown that you were going there with Lindsey.
03:20:53 Uh I don't know, sir. I don't think so. I think
03:20:57 I think at most, I think Lindsey may have paid for her her own ticket, but I cannot say that categorically. Can we go down to the bottom of the page, please?
03:21:07 Uh it's signed by you and Sergeant Beales. Your block says, "I certify that the above details are correct, and that where refreshment of subsistence allowances claimed I was unable to
03:21:19 allowances claimed I was unable to obtain meals in my usual way and incurred additional expense to obtain food signed by you. Yes.
03:21:28 And then Beales says I'm satisfied that the above expenses have been incurred in accordance with regulations.
03:21:38 Is it right that no manager acting properly if informed of the reality of the trip you took with Lindsey could have authorized and I could have authorized this expenditure.
03:21:50 Um yes, from what you are saying, but again as I say
03:21:55 as I say part of my reason for doing that trip was to continue with my legend building. And it's a reality that you misled Sergeant Beales into signing for something he should not have signed for.
03:22:11 I cannot remember what Sergeant Beales knew at that time, so it's entirely possible, yes. I'll put this very bluntly. Were you obtaining the funds
03:22:23 Were you obtaining the funds to partially support this trip to Venice by deception? No, absolutely not. This as I say my reasons for this trip
03:22:36 This as I say my reasons for this trip were to keep maintaining my legend. We have no intelligence reports from this trip
03:22:44 this trip to suggest that you met anybody out there. Why is that?
03:22:49 that? Because as I've just said it was out there to build and maintain my legend, sir.
03:22:55 sir. We've looked at some reports this morning which you said were in the course of legend building. Yes. Is the reality is there is no report because you didn't meet anybody over there? Um so I I do believe that I may have done
03:23:08 so I I do believe that I may have done reporting on this. What happened to reports that I put in? Again, I I can't answer those questions, I'm afraid. Could we have your witness statement, please, at 35550,
03:23:19 statement, please, at 35550, page 95?
03:23:27 Paragraph 194. This is your witness statement to the inquiry. Yep. I did travel to Italy when in my cover role on an occasion when Lindsey was
03:23:38 role on an occasion when Lindsey was also there. The reason for my trip to Italy was linked to SP and MP. I think we spent one night together. The document, and you refer to the authorization.
03:23:49 authorization. Mhm.
03:23:50 Mhm. Purpose was for SP activists to hold discussions with Italian activists of similar leanings.
03:23:59 leanings. I think I was asked to attend by SP because I could speak Italian.
03:24:06 Italian. Yes, sir. Those last two sentences are untrue, aren't they? No, sir. No, sir. I I As I've said, I continually
03:24:17 No, sir. I I As I've said, I continually had discussions with members of the Socialist Party who were part of the international. And this was something that was spoken about all the time. I I think at that time I might have been one of the few people, maybe one other,
03:24:30 of the few people, maybe one other, who was able to speak in Italian and to carry on conversations. There were not SP activists on this trip, were there? They were with you and
03:24:41 trip, were there? They were with you and Lindsey.
03:24:43 Lindsey. Yes, sir.
03:24:44 Yes, sir. So, what you've written in your inquiry witness statement is untrue, isn't it? No, sir, because as I say,
03:24:52 as I say, both myself and Lindsey were activists. We went out there, but what what am I I was asked to go out to try and meet people that might be like-minded and similar to us.
03:25:04 similar to us. And that's that's what I did. This was all part of the legend building that I was doing. So, it's a deliberate lie, Mr. Suraki, what you've written in these two sentences. I would not say it's a
03:25:16 two sentences. I would not say it's a deliberate lie, sir. I would say I probably said it wrong. But, as I say, I can't
03:25:23 I can't I can't argue with this, but that is not what my intention was, sir. Sir, is that a convenient time to rise in one moment.
03:25:34 in one moment. When you refer to Socialist Party activists Mhm.
03:25:41 to hold discussions with Italian activists of similar leanings. Yes, sir. Who were the Socialist Party activists who were going to hold those discussions with Italian activists? I was asked to be the
03:25:54 Italian activists? I was asked to be the representative as I could speak Italian. And as I say, I can write the names down that I can recall. These were senior activists within Socialist Party.
03:26:07 Socialist Party. What was called to forgive me in your witness statement? These are your words. The purpose was for Socialist Party activists, plural, to hold discussions with Italian
03:26:18 to hold discussions with Italian activists Yes. of similar leanings. Yes.
03:26:21 Yes. You are, as I understand it, one of the Socialist Party activists. Yes, sir. And what I want to know is were there others and if so, who they were and would you write them down if
03:26:33 were and would you write them down if you can't say? I understand what answer. I think I do. Um These were not people that accompanied me. I went out there on their behalf. I'm happy to write down
03:26:45 I'm happy to write down the people I had these discussions with before I left London because this was all after
03:26:51 after Genoa.
03:26:52 Genoa. And there were other trips out there.
03:27:07 So the purpose was for you Yes. a single individual Yes. to hold discussions with Italian activists
03:27:15 activists on behalf of a number of Socialist Party activists. The others of whom apart from yourself remained in England. Yes, indeed. Um they were senior members of the
03:27:27 they were senior members of the Socialist Party. Um and as I say, they were looking for someone that could speak the language. To my knowledge at that time there was one other person within the Socialist two others within the Socialist Party,
03:27:40 two others within the Socialist Party, but they could not do that kind of trip as I was at that time um
03:27:45 um uh
03:27:46 uh a tradesman um it was
03:27:49 um it was would you be able to spare the time? I did not say no to that because even then I was still trying to build and maintain my legend and the Italian connection
03:28:00 my legend and the Italian connection seemed like a really good idea. Did you make any contact with Italian Socialist Party activists or Italian activists of a similar frame of mind
03:28:11 activists of a similar frame of mind before you went? I I can't remember, sir, on this occasion, but I I definitely did in my time there. Um But on this occasion is what I'm concerned with. I'm sorry, sir, I can't can't remember. Did you meet any?
03:28:24 can't remember. Did you meet any? Yes, I'm I'm sure we did. Yeah. On this occasion. I I'm sure we did, but I I cannot say 100% categorically. Uh
03:28:34 Uh Lindsey has said categorically that you didn't.
03:28:38 didn't. Well, then I'm afraid we will have a difference of opinion.
03:28:42 opinion. So your evidence is that you met one or more Italian activists in Venice on this trip.
03:28:53 in Venice on this trip. I I get as I say, sir, I'm I'm sorry, I can't remember exactly. I spent a number of different trips going out to Italy. Um
03:29:01 Um sometimes on my own, other times with people.
03:29:04 people. Um
03:29:05 Um yeah, entirely possible. Lindsay came with me on this trip, and yes, it was pleasure as well, but I did go out there for legend building purposes.
03:29:17 purposes. I'm trying to understand, is it whether you met any Italian activists on this trip, in Venice?
03:29:28 Venice? On one of these three days. As I've said, I'm very sorry, sir. I cannot remember 100% categorically if that was the case.
03:29:40 We will resume at 10:00 tomorrow. I'm afraid that you have at least another 2 days to go. Absolutely fine, sir. No problem at all.