HN104 'Carlo Neri' (Carlo Soracchi) is cross-examined on his deceptive sexual relationship with Donna McLean: a fabricated SDS rent book funded with £685 a month of public money, a Bologna weekend obtained by deception, a marriage proposal, and fabricated family tragedies - his father's death and his sister's abuse - used to manipulate her and engineer his exit. The afternoon then turns to SDS tradecraft and welfare, his intelligence reporting on No Platform and Joe Batty, and allegations he suggested firebombing a far-right charity shop linked to Roberto Fiore.
00:00:00 Um, my understanding was that she was letting it from somebody who obviously is this person here. Letting it or subletting it? Um, subletting, I guess, looking at
00:00:13 Um, subletting, I guess, looking at that.
00:00:14 that. Looking at what? Um, well, the landlord, etc. But, I I didn't really I wasn't very interested in these things, if I'm being honest.
00:00:26 things, if I'm being honest. Did Donna McLean tell you that she was subletting the flat? Yeah.
00:00:33 Yeah. Wouldn't dispute it, no.
00:00:38 Who actually paid the rent? I felt I think we both did. Um,
00:00:45 Um, as I say, the money's I paid her were rent and for bills and and such like. You said money you paid her. Can I take it from that that your evidence is
00:00:57 it from that that your evidence is Donna McLean paid the landlord. I believe so, yes. How did she do so? I I would just hand her cash. I I don't know the rest. Um, again, I apologize, but I I was not
00:01:10 Um, again, I apologize, but I I was not very interested in that.
00:01:14 Her evidence was that you were giving her between 150 and 200 pounds per month in cash.
00:01:23 in cash. Is that right? Um,
00:01:26 Um, I I can't recall. I'm pretty certain I was giving her more than that, so. Did the amount vary according to what you pretended you were earning?
00:01:38 I can't recall. She says it did. Well, I I don't think so. As as I say, I I believe I was given that money by my back office every month and or it was put into my account by them and I would
00:01:49 put into my account by them and I would pass it on, but always in cash.
00:01:55 Where did the document Where did this booklet come from?
00:02:02 It was [clears throat] either given to me by the back office because obviously we did have administrative staff that would go out and get things. Um I can recall when we talked about this
00:02:13 I can recall when we talked about this and I obviously went to uh
00:02:16 uh would have been one of the inspectors um about the rent that they said we can give you cash to pay but we do need some kind of of evidence
00:02:27 but we do need some kind of of evidence um that if you fill it out but you get it initialed etc. Um so I
00:02:33 Um so I I don't know. Um that's what I did as far as I can remember. I would fill out the bits.
00:02:38 the bits. Um
00:02:40 Um Yeah, I I can't cast more light on it than that, sir. Did you ever show this document to Donna McClain?
00:02:47 McClain? I cannot recall so. Um I I know that I would carry it with me and that I may have kept it there but I also know that I had to hand it into the office on a monthly
00:02:58 to hand it into the office on a monthly basis.
00:03:00 basis. She said that she'd never seen it before.
00:03:03 before. Entirely possible, yes.
00:03:10 We could scroll back up to the two pages which have got initials and go to the first of those.
00:03:25 Who wrote in the initials of the landlord?
00:03:29 landlord? That I do not know, sir. When I was shown the
00:03:32 shown the um
00:03:33 um the unredacted copy of this the other day um
00:03:36 day um I can completely confirm that everything sort of from the amount to the left is mine. I I didn't recognize the initials and the initials of the landlord's as my
00:03:49 and the initials of the landlord's as my writing. Um again as I say I would bring it into my back office on a regular basis. They would go through it and hand it back to me. Um
00:03:57 me. Um I I don't know. It's the honest answer. If the landlord was someone you never met, Yeah. can we be certain of one thing? Certainly not the real initials of the
00:04:09 Certainly not the real initials of the real landlord. Again, I don't know, so I wouldn't have thought so, no. Well, how could it be? I I just said I wouldn't have thought so, no.
00:04:20 If you look at the D Mac L
00:04:24 Mac L initials, Mhm. who wrote those? It wasn't me, sir.
00:04:33 Well, as far as I remember, I never wrote anything there. I would hand that into my back office. It's Donna McLean's evidence that it wasn't her.
00:04:44 wasn't her. Absolutely. I would accept that. Got no reason not to.
00:04:51 If you look carefully at the different initialing and look perhaps at the D, the D varies quite a lot, doesn't it?
00:05:04 I'm not handwriting expert, sir, but yes, I'm just looking at the one at the bottom and then going up, yeah.
00:05:13 If it wasn't Donna McLean and it wasn't you, who was it? I don't know, sir. I Sorry, I can't help with that. Who are the candidates?
00:05:24 the candidates? Well, I used to bring it into me back office, sir. So, but but again, I would just go in, I would hand it in and couple of days later or later in the week, following week it would be handed back. It wasn't
00:05:35 back. It wasn't um
00:05:37 um it
00:05:38 it For me, it I did not consider it important. I was just getting on with doing what I was doing.
00:05:46 The deposit of £685 we saw earlier on in the document that that number was was written in. Yes, sir.
00:05:55 sir. Who wrote that in? Um well, as I said, that was me on that side of it. If we go up a few pages and see where the deposit is first set out of 685.
00:06:09 It's on the left there, paragraph nine. Yeah.
00:06:12 Yeah. Who wrote that in? Uh
00:06:14 Uh probably me, sir. I I was asked to fill out the rent book um by the back office. How was that number decided upon? I I can't remember, sir. I I think it
00:06:26 I I can't remember, sir. I I think it would have been something that had been discussed between us. When you say between us, between you and the back office or between you and Donna McClain? Uh between sorry, myself and Donna McClain.
00:06:39 What that you were going to
00:06:42 Yes, sir. I I was going to give her that money. Um and as I say, my understanding was that was rent, bills, and if obviously
00:06:53 that was rent, bills, and if obviously there was grocery shopping and things to be done.
00:07:01 Can I be clear exactly what is your recollection of the conversation you had with Donna McClain about the financial arrangement that was going to arise from
00:07:13 arrangement that was going to arise from your moving in with her? Certainly. Um my recollection, um and as I say, it was not that important to me at the time, was that I was going to contribute um
00:07:24 was going to contribute um to half the rent, to any kind of utilities, and also add some in there for food and groceries, etc. I think
00:07:37 I don't want to say I assume, but I think we probably arrived at that figure.
00:07:41 figure. Um but I can't I cannot sort of, categorically say that because it it was not that important to me, sir.
00:07:49 Can you recall uh
00:07:52 uh whether you asked Donna McClair how much rent she was paying? No, sir.
00:08:00 Her evidence is that she was paying £320 per month. Okay. Do you have any reason to dispute that figure?
00:08:12 reason to dispute that figure? Um, no, I would not dispute that with her.
00:08:16 her. Um
00:08:17 Um but, at the same time I do believe that we had a discussion and this is the figure here, 685, is what I went back to my back office to discuss with them.
00:08:38 So, not a figure for rent. Is your evidence a composite figure of what you were going to pay Donna McClair? Yeah, it it I I That's a fair way to put it. Uh, I would say a composite figure
00:08:50 it. Uh, I would say a composite figure is is fair. As far as I can remember. As I say, it it really was not that important to me, sir.
00:09:06 And so, your evidence is this book wasn't something you gave to managers, it was something managers gave to you. What I remember, um, when I went back and had the discussion with my managers
00:09:18 and had the discussion with my managers regarding paying cash uh, for rent, which I think I might have done on other occasions as well. Can't remember for sure. This was what came up. They turned around and says,
00:09:29 came up. They turned around and says, "We need you to write down that you've paid this money. We see the rent book. You give it to us, we will do the rest. Um
00:09:39 Um I think I was told to go and have the discussion. I obviously did not say that it was with Donna. Um I had that discussion and I went back to them with that figure. Well, if if we go back to the first page
00:09:53 Well, if if we go back to the first page of this file Yes, sir. which I should say was recovered from a collection of hard copy SDS documents. Yeah, sure.
00:10:04 Yeah, sure. where it says rent collector. Yeah.
00:10:07 Yeah. And it's got the landlord's name and then
00:10:12 D. McLean. Why does it have both the landlord's name and Donna McLean's name in as rent collector? I would
00:10:23 I would have to sort of ask you to maybe talk to um my back office colleagues or my managers. I think I would have probably put that there because I was asked to put those details on there by the back
00:10:34 put those details on there by the back office.
00:10:35 office. I
00:10:37 I cannot say 100% that's what it was, but And did
00:10:43 the back office know that the person who we've redacted as landlord was the landlord?
00:10:50 landlord? I don't know, sir. Sorry. Well, presumably they'd asked you. Yeah, I mean, that would be why I wrote it there. I guess they would have made notes of it somewhere
00:11:01 notes of it somewhere or checked it up. I don't know. And who's
00:11:05 And who's D. McLean as it's written there? Yes.
00:11:10 Yes. So, your managers would have known that Donna McLean was connected to the property? Oh, yes. Yes, but as as I say, um well, there's no need for me to go again. Um I
00:11:22 again. Um I don't think at that stage I would have had to told anybody that I was having a relationship.
00:11:28 But they knew you were living with her. Yes. Is that fair? They Yes. Yes. Fair to them, fair to your managers. Um
00:11:39 Fair to them, fair to your managers. Um Yes, I I think so. I As I say, it was was there. Um
00:11:44 Um I was never asked uh many more questions about that, but yeah, that is fair.
00:11:58 The rent level.
00:12:02 level. £685.
00:12:07 Donald McLean's evidence, the actual rent for this flat. It was a one-bedroom flat, wasn't it? Yes, it was a a two large
00:12:18 two large uh what I call reception rooms, one of which was a bedroom. Um
00:12:23 Um Bathroom, toilet, kitchen, separate kitchen area. It's quite large as well, I I think. So, quite a large one-bedroom flat for £320. You'd had a property in Mare Street for
00:12:36 You'd had a property in Mare Street for £500,
00:12:38 £500, as we've just seen. sir.
00:12:40 sir. £685
00:12:42 £685 is significantly above both of those figures, isn't it? Um
00:12:48 Um Yes, it is, but um it was in
00:12:51 it was in uh what I would call quite a posh part of London, in Maida Vale, just up from the tube station there. Um I did not get into questioning um why why that was the figure we
00:13:03 um why why that was the figure we arrived at, but we arrived at it I Again, I fed that back to my back office.
00:13:08 office. Um I'm assuming they went away and checked that, because they had admin staff that looked at all of these things.
00:13:14 things. Checked what? Um rents in the area, prices, etc. I I'm assuming, sir, I they came back and went, "That sounds about right. Here you go."
00:13:25 about right. Here you go." But your evidence was that that £685 wasn't actually the rent. It was the rent and As far as I can remember, sir. Yes.
00:13:34 Yes. were going to contribute to the running of the property and the household. As far as I can remember, sir. Yes.
00:13:43 Were you trying to come up with a figure that would make it look as if this was a two-bedroom flat and not a one-bedroom flat?
00:13:50 flat? No, sir.
00:13:51 No, sir. Don't think so. Don't recall ever doing that.
00:13:56 And again, I I don't think I was ever asked.
00:14:08 Coming back to the point we focused on earlier, the permitted occupancy of one. Yes, sir. Why were you completing this rent book
00:14:19 Why were you completing this rent book on the basis uh of a permitted occupancy of one? I I I don't remember, sir. I would Again, maybe I was was trying to cover things.
00:14:30 was trying to cover things. Well, in terms of covering things, coming back to what's in front of it, rent collector landlord stroke D. McLean. Yes. Were you trying to pass off Donna McLean
00:14:43 Were you trying to pass off Donna McLean as either the landlord or the rent collector? I don't think I was, sir. Um I think
00:14:50 I think when I'd had discussions with my back office, um they had said, "Who will you be paying the rent to? And is there a landlord that it's going to go to?"
00:15:01 go to?" I I can't remember for sure, but looking at that, I think that may have been the reasons that I put that one there. But it it As I say, and I apologize, it just was not that important to me at
00:15:13 it just was not that important to me at the time, I'm afraid. Why is Donna McLean's name in the rent collector row? I don't know. Um
00:15:26 I don't know. Um Couldn't think where to put it. I don't know. Can we go down to the initials, please?
00:15:40 Your evidence a moment ago Mhm. was to the effect that Donna McLean was paying the rent. You were giving money to her, and she was paying the rent.
00:15:52 to her, and she was paying the rent. Yes.
00:15:54 Yes. This book is completed as if Donna McLean is collecting the rent, isn't it?
00:16:05 is collecting the rent, isn't it? Well, yeah, looking at those initials. Yes, but as I say, I do not believe I was responsible for any of those initials. I have no recollection of that. I used to fill that bit in, and I would hand it in.
00:16:18 that bit in, and I would hand it in. Is it true that you were keeping from your managers that you were living with Donna McLean?
00:16:29 that you were living with Donna McLean? And you made it look as if you were renting from her
00:16:37 from her or with her as the rent collector. It's possible, sir. Um but as I say, I did not initial that side of the book. Um
00:16:47 Um I I was definitely keeping it from them. I think we Well, I I I'm I'm I'm exploring what you were keeping from them. You've been very clear you were keeping the sexual nature of the
00:16:58 keeping the sexual nature of the relationship from them. Were you keeping the fact that you were living with her from them? Um well,
00:17:10 Um well, yes, I I think that would be um
00:17:14 um would be clear. Yes.
00:17:33 And if we could take that
00:17:38 take that document
00:17:40 document down.
00:17:41 down. The consequence
00:17:45 of your doing that is you were receiving £685
00:17:51 £685 per month of public money. Yes, sir.
00:17:58 Which your managers thought was the rent
00:18:05 for the property at Elgin Avenue. Uh yes, sir.
00:18:14 You were giving between £150 and £250
00:18:19 and £250 a month
00:18:21 a month to Donna Maclean as your financial contribution. Yes, sir.
00:18:30 How much were you giving her? Sir, I I was giving that cash and I would probably have given her that in its entirety, but I cannot remember, but I was certainly not giving as low a
00:18:41 I was certainly not giving as low a figure as as the one you've just quoted.
00:18:46 It's very important you tell the truth, Mr. Saraki.
00:18:51 Sir, I I did Were you giving Donna Maclean £685
00:18:59 month in, month out? As far as I can remember, yes.
00:19:05 yes. I am not
00:19:07 I am not lying.
00:19:10 I'll actually I'm very sorry, sir, but find that a little bit offensive cuz I am being as clear
00:19:16 clear as I can.
00:19:18 as I can. That would be a sum of money considerably in excess of the rent for the in other for the flat. I I don't
00:19:30 for the in other for the flat. I I don't know, sir. As I say, I had this discussion with Donna. That's what I was told. I went back to my back office. Um
00:19:39 Um I I cannot say more than that because I do not remember. As we went through, you bought Donna McLean
00:19:49 McLean many generous gifts. Yes, I did. Where did the money come from to pay for those? Well, it it it's I'm glad you've raised that, sir, because um my back office um after
00:20:01 office um after incidents that weren't related to me, they would regularly check our bank accounts.
00:20:06 accounts. Any discrepancies of money going in or out, we berated raised with us. And I was carpeted by uh my inspectors because they were unhappy with deposits
00:20:18 because they were unhappy with deposits that had been made into my duff bank account. Um and that money was coming out of my true uh bank account to
00:20:27 to fund my lifestyle. Um and I was once they discovered it, um again, I was immediately told to stop. Let me be clear.
00:20:38 Let me be clear. I thought you'd told me that you were getting the money to pay for the rent in cash.
00:20:44 cash. From the back office. But you asked me about um gifts and all the rest of it and where was that money coming from? And that was coming from my private bank account in my real world.
00:20:56 account in my real world. [snorts]
00:20:57 [snorts] But in terms of your managers monitoring your accounts, that would not allow them to monitor what was happening to the £685
00:21:04 £685 per month you were being given in cash. Oh no. No. Um they would have put that money in there. I would have then withdrawn it or it would have given been given to me in a a cash bundle which I would have then gone
00:21:16 cash bundle which I would have then gone and handed across. And I was told that the whole reason for the rent book was was that that at least I was keeping some sort of record that they could then provide if ever audited
00:21:28 they could then provide if ever audited or anything like that. Is it true that you were
00:21:32 you were making a considerable profit Uh no, sir. And it's not.
00:21:41 Can I move now to New Year's Eve? Sir, before we do, can we go back to the document, please? Yes. Of course. Uh 527068.
00:22:06 Before anything is put on the document in handwriting, Yes, sir. where did it come from? I I cannot remember, sir. I'm sorry. Um it may have been given to me by my back
00:22:18 it may have been given to me by my back office support staff. Um I don't recall buying it, but it it could have could have been bought by me. It was It was not
00:22:27 was not of importance to me. I was just did what I was told to.
00:22:42 Can you think of any legitimate reason why your back office should have given you
00:22:50 you a rent book? Blank rent book. Yes, sir. Um as far as I understood it, um when I had spoken to my um supervisors and we had discussed the
00:23:02 supervisors and we had discussed the whole cash aspect. Um I can't remember which inspector it was, but one of them had said, "We need a written record. Doesn't matter who keeps it. You need to write out and fill in,
00:23:14 it. You need to write out and fill in, and you need to hand it back to us um on a regular basis, so that if the question is ever asked, we can say, 'Well, this is what he has been getting given and being paid out.'"
00:23:25 given and being paid out.'" Um as I say, I thought no more of it than that, so I just got on with it.
00:23:33 So, that as you now remember it, either the rent book was given to you in blank by the back office Yes, sir. or on their suggestion, you got it.
00:23:43 got it. absolutely. I can't see any other way that
00:23:46 that that it would have been coming to my possession. Um Um
00:23:51 Um You have filled in, as I understand it, the tenant of the tenant. That's your handwriting. Yes, sir. And the date of the tenancy. Yes, sir. And the uh identities of the rent
00:24:03 And the uh identities of the rent collector. Yes, sir. All your handwriting. Yes, sir. Right.
00:24:16 And the figure of 685 lbs, which we see in
00:24:20 in Yes. for the deposit and subsequent um
00:24:24 um monthly payments is what your estimate of the amount that you were paying for accommodation and bills?
00:24:35 accommodation and bills? A- As I recall, um
00:24:37 um I believe that that would have come about because I Again, my back office would have said to me, "Well, go and work out exactly what a month is going to cost." Um
00:24:49 a month is going to cost." Um Um what used to happen when we rented places, we would get the rent, and then we would get extra for the utilities. Um and they said, "If you're doing it this way, then we need to know
00:25:01 need to know the whole amount. And and that's what I did. Um
00:25:05 Um I I don't recall what I was receiving per month
00:25:09 per month in addition to that, but I think that's what I went back and and that was the figure I gave them after consultation.
00:25:19 Thank you. Thank you, sir. Yes, Mr. Barr.
00:25:22 Barr. Thank you, sir. New Year's Eve, 31st of December 2002. Yes, sir.
00:25:29 You and Donna McLean threw a party. Mhm. Yes.
00:25:34 Yes. At um
00:25:36 At um Donna's flat. Yes, sir. And did you did the idea to throw a party come from you? I can't remember, sir.
00:25:48 Her evidence is that it was your idea and you did the organizing. Is that fair?
00:25:53 fair? I contributed to the cooking for it, so yes.
00:25:58 And it was a successful party. What I can remember. Yeah.
00:26:05 Well, in connection with that answer, uh
00:26:08 uh can I take it that quite a lot of alcohol was consumed? Yes, sir.
00:26:16 Is it right as we were told by Donna McLean that you proposed marriage to her at
00:26:28 that you proposed marriage to her at this party? I do not recall that, sir. Um
00:26:34 uh I I've read this numerous times. Um I think back to that time. Um I As I say, I had professed my love for
00:26:45 I As I say, I had professed my love for her, but I do not recall saying that at that party. Her recollection is that you went down on one knee just before
00:26:56 just before midnight to propose. I don't remember that, sir, but but again I I
00:27:02 I I don't really know how to answer it other than to say I do not recall that. If you had proposed marriage to Donna Maclean, do you think
00:27:13 marriage to Donna Maclean, do you think that is something you would have remembered? Yes. Well, yes, I do. Um Notwithstanding whatever alcohol you had consumed on that occasion.
00:27:27 Yes. I You know, discussions of the night, I do My recollections of that night are extremely vague, but I do still like to think it was something I would have remembered, and I do not have that
00:27:39 remembered, and I do not have that memory. I do not remember that.
00:27:45 If you had proposed marriage to Donna Maclean, it is something one would have expected her to remember, isn't it? Yeah. No no dispute.
00:27:59 Had you told Donna Maclean that you'd been engaged before?
00:28:06 Yes, possibly. Um I think that formed part of of my my legend discussing I can't remember that but exactly, sir, but it sounds plausible that I might
00:28:17 but it sounds plausible that I might have.
00:28:20 Was Joe Batty at this party? Uh
00:28:23 Uh I assume he would be, yes. Dan Gilman? Yes. I Again, can't remember the guest list, as it were, but that would all make sense. Steve Hedley?
00:28:34 make sense. Steve Hedley? Yeah, I don't recall Mr. Hedley, but entirely possible, yes.
00:28:41 Mr. Batty and Mr. Gilman in their evidence were clear that you did propose.
00:28:47 propose. Fine.
00:28:48 Fine. to Donna Maclean on that occasion. Fine. I I And Mr. Hadley has given evidence that he heard of uh the
00:28:59 engagement.
00:29:02 Do you dispute that you proposed marriage to Donna Maclean on the 31st of December, 2002? Yes.
00:29:13 Yes. I I do not remember doing that. But, again, I'm not here to talk about other people and what they say happened. It was
00:29:23 It was Well, it was a very drunken night as well, sir. Donna Maclean's evidence is that after you proposed,
00:29:34 you proposed, you picked her up and swirled her around in front of others, and she felt elated. Did that happen? I don't remember that.
00:29:45 I don't remember that. Again, I
00:29:47 Again, I You said,
00:29:51 "Let's ring." And then you referred to her mother.
00:29:57 Okay. Did you ring Donna Maclean's mother to tell her that you had proposed marriage to her daughter and that she had accepted? I'm sorry, sir. I I do not
00:30:08 had accepted? I'm sorry, sir. I I do not remember that. Um I wouldn't have had a mother's number, but it obviously I was fine, but I do not remember that, sir.
00:30:20 It'd be quite a striking thing to do. That absolutely, sir. I I do not remember it, I'm afraid.
00:30:30 Donna Maclean's evidence is that you told other friends soon afterwards uh
00:30:36 uh in a pub and bought a round, memorably including one for the barmaid. Did that happen? I do not remember that.
00:30:49 There's a difference between not remembering and something not happening. Are you saying that it didn't happen or simply I'm trying to remember my apologies. I'm trying to remember
00:31:01 my apologies. I'm trying to remember the pub. Um I I
00:31:04 I I It did not happen. No.
00:31:10 Donna Maclean has given evidence that uh
00:31:16 that uh you discussed wedding plans at times including things like seating plans, menus, the music that would be played the wedding. Did
00:31:28 that would be played the wedding. Did you do that? No, sir. No. Anything like that detail on. No.
00:31:35 No. Are you certain? Um as Yes, as certain as I can be, sir. Yes. We are talking a very long time ago, but but none of that makes any sense to me.
00:31:46 none of that makes any sense to me. Her evidence was that you would not let her get involved with choosing a ring and said that you would be involving her sister because that was the Italian way.
00:31:59 because that was the Italian way. Um
00:31:59 Um I'm not sure if that is the Italian way, but again
00:32:04 but again I don't know, sir. That that I do I do not remember that. So, my answer is no. So, is it your position that Donna
00:32:15 So, is it your position that Donna Maclean
00:32:18 Joe Batty Dan Gilman and Steve Headley are making all of this up? Yes, I I suppose it is, sir. I
00:32:30 Yes, I I suppose it is, sir. I not sure what else I'm meant to to reply to that. I do not remember this.
00:32:38 Can I move forward a couple of months to February 2003?
00:32:48 Your cover birthday was the 12th of February, wasn't it? Yes, I believe it was around that period, yes. Cover birth year 1971. Yeah, sounds about right. So, on the 12th of February 19
00:33:01 So, on the 12th of February 19 2003, you were pretending to be 32. Uh yes.
00:33:07 Uh yes. I don't need your exact date of birth, but you were in fact 34, weren't you? Something like that, so yeah.
00:33:15 And on 14th of February 2003 was of course Valentine's Day. Yes.
00:33:26 You and Donna Maclean uh went uh for a weekend
00:33:32 weekend long weekend to Bologna. Uh
00:33:38 Uh yeah.
00:33:39 yeah. Between the 7th and the 10th of February 2003. Yeah, can't be sure of the dates, but yes. So, the weekend There was a weekend either side of your birthday and
00:33:51 weekend either side of your birthday and Valentine's Day, the weekend before. And you went with her to Bologna to celebrate both your cover birthday
00:34:03 both your cover birthday and Valentine's Day. Yes.
00:34:07 Yes. How did you get there? I I think flew. Um
00:34:15 With whom? I assume with Donna.
00:34:22 Anybody else? Not I can recall, so no.
00:34:27 Is it right that Detective Sergeant Beals flew out as your
00:34:33 your cover officer. Yes. Um I would have definitely had a cover officer. So, on a different flight or the same flight? I I don't know, sir. I can't
00:34:45 flight? I I don't know, sir. I can't remember. You Usually, they would be on a different flight, but I cannot recall. Can you recall at which airport you flew into?
00:34:57 It would have been Bologna or an airport near Bologna. Um but I'm afraid I can't say more than that.
00:35:07 And when you were there with Donna Maguire, you showed her Bologna. Yes.
00:35:15 Yes. You took her to a football match. Uh yes, I think I can't remember, but I think that might have been part of a a gift for me, sir.
00:35:28 And you went to the scene of the bombing of Bologna station by fascists. Uh yes, sir.
00:35:37 Amongst other things, yes. You stayed in a very swish hotel. I I can't remember, but yes, there are lots of boutique hotels in Bologna. A
00:35:48 lots of boutique hotels in Bologna. A five-star hotel is Donna Maguire's recollection. Okay. I Again, I don't know.
00:35:54 know. Had room service breakfasts. Yep. Again, if if that's what is being said, I
00:36:01 said, I cannot say a definitive yes, but it sounds like a a sort of
00:36:08 a sort of birthday weekend, Valentine's weekend, yes.
00:36:14 Donna Maguire's evidence is that she paid for the hotel. Is that right? She may have done so, I I don't recall.
00:36:25 How important an event was this to you?
00:36:34 I I did care deeply for Donna. Um so, for me, it was a nice thing to go and do.
00:36:41 do. Um so, I would say yes, it it was an important event. How memorable?
00:36:49 Um at the time, it would have been very memorable. Obviously, a few years have passed.
00:36:59 I'm asking you those questions cuz you seem to
00:37:02 seem to recall very little. Yeah, I
00:37:06 Yeah, I I'm afraid I do forget. It's one of those things, part of my my issues in the years since is it's it's hard to place exact times and things, but I of course I enjoyed that.
00:37:20 Is it right that you ate at a very nice restaurant called the Diana Restaurant? Uh yes, yes.
00:37:33 And the purpose of this weekend was purely pleasure. Yes, sir.
00:37:40 Can we have up MPS 0527742?
00:37:52 This is um
00:37:54 um the travel application. It has DSB as traveler number one, you as traveler number two,
00:38:06 you as traveler number two, uh
00:38:07 uh both flying economy
00:38:11 economy on the 7th, coming back on the 10th. It is signed by Michael Dell, countersigned by Roger Pearce
00:38:22 by Roger Pearce where the certification as we looked at when we were considering your earlier trip. Yes, sir.
00:38:32 To Venice. If we go
00:38:36 at two page 11
00:38:45 that this is the expenses claim in your name signed by you
00:38:52 by you countersigned by Detective Sergeant Beales claiming three locks of daily
00:39:02 of daily allowance.
00:39:07 Says summary lodging Mhm. 498 pounds and travel miscellaneous. So, can we take it from that that you
00:39:20 So, can we take it from that that you claimed 477 pounds for this trip? Yes, I looking at that. Um And received it? I believe so, sir. I I can't
00:39:32 it? I believe so, sir. I I can't remember exactly, but that's what's there.
00:39:38 And is the daily allowance an allowance for board and lodging? I don't I can't remember. Yes, I guess.
00:39:50 Yes. Donna McLean's evidence is correct, in fact, the hotel was paid for by her. I Again, as I said entirely possible. Um I
00:40:02 entirely possible. Um I can't say 100% I'm afraid. If we can go back to page two.
00:40:15 In order to procure the signatures of DCI Dell, Commander Pierce, and DS Beales on the documents.
00:40:26 Beales on the documents. You would have had to tell them that you were going to Florence to sort their authority. Is that right? Um
00:40:36 Um Yes, I I
00:40:38 Yes, I I don't recall flying into Florence. Um Sorry.
00:40:42 Um Sorry. But yes, yes, I would have to have get their authority. Yes, sir. To get their authority for this trip. Yeah. And if you flew to Florence and then made your way to Bologna, they're not very far apart, are they? You can
00:40:54 not very far apart, are they? You can fly into Florence and get to Bologna quite easily. You can. But um Well, yes, you can. Yes.
00:41:06 Who did you speak to in this chain of command in order to secure permission and funding to go on this trip? Um it it would have again
00:41:17 on this trip? Um it it would have again been my my cover sergeants. Uh they would have made the arrangements. Um
00:41:24 Um and then
00:41:26 and then it would have basically been set up and we would have gone and I would have seen this document after it was all filled out following the end of the trip. For these purposes, does that mean Detective Sergeant Beales? Um
00:41:40 mean Detective Sergeant Beales? Um Yes. Um that's the name on there. I I can't remember, but I would have definitely spoken to my cover sergeants. What did you tell DS, sorry, Detective Sergeant Beales
00:41:55 DS, sorry, Detective Sergeant Beales you wanted to go to Italy to do? Um
00:42:00 Um I cannot recall exactly, but I do think it would have been some kind of legend building
00:42:06 building um
00:42:08 um discussion that we would have had.
00:42:11 Did you tell him you were to Florence or did you tell him you were going to Bologna?
00:42:18 I can't remember, sir. Um
00:42:22 Um I'm a bit confused as to why Florence is on there cuz I'm sure I didn't fly into Florence cuz you fly into Florence, you would stay in Florence, surely. Um but
00:42:32 but there we are.
00:42:36 Did you tell him you wanted to go to Bologna with Donna McCullen for a romantic long weekend
00:42:47 for a romantic long weekend celebrating your cover birthday and Valentine's Day? No, sir. Well, I did not.
00:42:57 Did you obtain funding for the trip to Bologna by deception? No, sir. Well, well, um yes, I
00:43:06 um yes, I would have I would have said to my cover sergeants that I might wanted to go out there to do legend building. So, that isn't the Can we be clear?
00:43:17 Can we be clear? Mhm. Is it your evidence that you could say
00:43:21 say to DS Beals, "I want to go to Italy this weekend, um for legend building purposes." Abso- absolutely, yes. You say no more than that and Bob's your
00:43:34 You say no more than that and Bob's your uncle, he signed it off, Dell signed it off, and Pierce signed it off. Or is it your evidence that questions would be asked about why you wanted to go and who you were going to
00:43:46 wanted to go and who you were going to go with and how it was going to benefit your deployment? I I would have couch that in I need to go out for legend building purposes. Um
00:43:58 Um I done a a number of trips to Italy, so I do not believe it was an issue at this point.
00:44:07 You would have had to have deceived them as to the real purpose of this trip, wouldn't you? Well, yes. Um but to me that was
00:44:15 that was quite handy legend building as well because I was still going out there. It was with someone who was involved in a the undercover world that I was involved in.
00:44:26 in. So,
00:44:27 So, for me, I justified it like that in my head that it was still legend building. Can we go to page 11, please?
00:44:40 Says in relation to the tickets,
00:44:46 tickets, other expense claims, all receipts retained by DCI Dell.
00:44:54 DCI Dell. 36 euros. Can you help us with that? No, sir. I'm What receipts were retained by DCI Dell? I'm sorry, sir. I can't help you with
00:45:06 I'm sorry, sir. I can't help you with that. I've no idea.
00:45:10 You gave an answer a moment ago about how you rationalize this in your own head. Yes, sir.
00:45:18 You must have known, mustn't you, that if you had properly explained to any of your managers the purpose of this trip, they would have refused
00:45:29 this trip, they would have refused authority, wouldn't they? Um yes.
00:45:34 Um yes. Could we take that down, please? Can we go now from Bologna to Whitby? Uh March 2003.
00:45:47 This is to celebrate Donna McClain's 31st birthday, isn't it?
00:45:57 Is that right? You went to Whitby in March 2003. yes. But I definitely went to Whitby at some point. I think it was that time of year. To celebrate her birthday. I believe so.
00:46:08 believe so. With her mother? I think yes, her family were there. Her sister?
00:46:12 sister? Yes. Her stepfather? Yes. And her sister's friend? I I don't remember anybody else, but yes, entirely possible. Whose partner, who was not present, was a police
00:46:23 who was not present, was a police officer.
00:46:26 officer. I
00:46:27 I don't remember that, sir, but yes. Donna McLean's evidence was that you lavished attention on her mother. On her mother?
00:46:38 On her mother? Yeah. Um
00:46:40 Yeah. Um entirely yes, possible I again wouldn't have put it exactly like that, but I was always tried to be very charming. Yes.
00:46:51 And told her that you wanted Donna to have a baby.
00:46:59 I Did you say that? I don't recall saying it, but again, I'm I'm not here to argue with other people's comments. Does that mean you might have done?
00:47:12 Does that mean you might have done? Yes, of course it does, but I don't recall that.
00:47:18 Did you mean it? I don't remember it. Did you want Donna McLean to have a baby with you at that stage? No. No.
00:47:29 Why did you tell her mother that you did? I
00:47:33 did? I don't remember saying that, but as I say, there were lots of family conversations that would take place.
00:47:41 It's an extraordinary thing for you to be equivocating upon, isn't it?
00:47:50 Yes. Yes. Yes, it is.
00:47:54 Were you at this stage having conversations with Donna Maclean about where you were going to live together in the longer term. I I
00:48:05 I I thought we were just staying in London. Um
00:48:08 Um I don't recall talking about moving per se.
00:48:13 Was there a conversation with Donna Maclean about longer term plans to have a family?
00:48:20 a family? Um I'm sure that yes, there were. We would have talked about these kind of things, absolutely. Did you tell her that you wanted three children?
00:48:29 children? Um
00:48:31 Um Yes.
00:48:32 Yes. I
00:48:32 I think I had always wanted three children, so that would have you know, come from from me. Did you talk about possibly moving to Scotland where it would be easier to have a
00:48:44 have a finance a family home? Mhm. No, I don't remember that. Um
00:48:51 obviously would have caused lots of problems for me.
00:49:00 Did you talk about any particular location where you might settle down in the longer term? No.
00:49:11 Would it be fair to say that you became completely integrated into Donna Maclean's family life? Um I think uh
00:49:21 uh yes, that that is fair to say. Um I found these uh very nice people. Um and as I said earlier, it did give me a little bit of of solace.
00:49:34 a little bit of of solace. Um
00:49:35 Um and normality. Um so, yes. Uh were you emotionally intimate and supportive of them? Um
00:49:46 Um yes, I I think probably tried to be like that with most of the people I met whilst I was in that life.
00:49:55 You of course knew that this was not destined to last. Yes.
00:50:03 Yes. Did you consider the impact of becoming so
00:50:09 so integrated into their lives was going to have on them when you disappeared? Um
00:50:18 Um continually, sir. Um at that period, I think I spent an awful lot of time um trying to work out how I could explain uh to Donna McLain uh what I
00:50:31 explain uh to Donna McLain uh what I really was. Um I did find her family extremely charming and endearing and
00:50:40 and good people, for want of a better word. Um
00:50:44 Um and I feel that I just kept stopping myself and realized that I was going to um cause
00:50:53 cause a lot of harm if I did reveal my my true identity. A lot of harm to to whom? To to them. Upset.
00:51:05 Upset. The worst so than just not disappearing, but um finishing the relationship.
00:51:15 So, putting the question another way, why didn't you tell Donna McLain who and what you really were? As I said, at the time when we first
00:51:26 As I said, at the time when we first met, um it was a great uh provided a great solace, for want of a better word, for me. As time went past, um
00:51:37 As time went past, um I just kept convincing myself that I had to keep going, had to keep doing my job, and that that situation would eventually resolve itself. Um either by
00:51:49 Um either by resolve itself? Um sorry, yeah. I was going to say either by my revealing what I really was,
00:51:55 was, um or by
00:51:58 um or by breaking off our relationship. It doesn't really answer my question as to why you never disclosed your real identity
00:52:08 identity and occupation to Donna McLean. Um because I I was working as an undercover police officer and we were told you do not disclose.
00:52:19 I mean, there are a lot of reasons why one wouldn't why one wouldn't do it, but that is one of them. Another would be because you knew
00:52:30 Another would be because you knew that Donna McLean would want nothing to do with an undercover police officer. Entirely possible, sir. Yes. Possible? Well,
00:52:40 Well, yeah.
00:52:41 yeah. She wouldn't, would she? Well, we we never really had that conversation because I I'd never really told her Well, I'd never told her what I did. Because you knew Obviously, she would have been appalled. Well, because I was also told you do not
00:52:52 Well, because I was also told you do not disclose, but yes, indeed. As we'll be coming to, you did disclose to someone in later Yes, I further down the line, but not to Donna. No.
00:53:03 No. And I'm exploring why not. Um I
00:53:07 Um I can only say what I've just said, sir. Um
00:53:11 I was not to disclose I was a serving undercover police officer. I knew that she had close associations with people that were part of my target group. Um more expansive than that, I can't
00:53:23 Um more expansive than that, I can't really think. I As I say, I gave it a lot of consideration in the time we were together. When did you rule it out? Sorry? When did you rule it out? I I can't remember. I I think it would
00:53:35 I I can't remember. I I think it would have been
00:53:37 have been I don't know, midway through the relationship or later on. I I don't know.
00:53:43 know. So, so coming back to my questions about getting yourself so inveigled into her and her family's life. Yeah. You must have known that it was going to end in
00:53:54 have known that it was going to end in tears.
00:53:55 tears. Yes, sir. Yes. That That was the most likely scenario, yes.
00:54:02 And you
00:54:07 continued knowing that it was going to do emotional harm I'm afraid I did, yes. Maclean and her family. Yes. I'm afraid I did.
00:54:19 Cornwall. Is it right you went on a long weekend at to Cornwall in 2003, approximately 6 months into the relationship? Yes, sir. There was a a
00:54:30 relationship? Yes, sir. There was a a group of us that went down.
00:54:35 You went with uh not only Donna Maclean, but also
00:54:40 but also Dan Gilman and Dan Gilman's partner, is that right? Yes, I I think there may have been another couple there as well, but
00:54:48 You went [snorts] to Rick Stein's restaurant for dinner. Um it was yes, uh it was one of his numerous establishments there, yes.
00:55:00 Was that the only time you went to Cornwall, or was there another trip to Cornwall with Donna? I can only recall that one, sir.
00:55:11 [snorts] Going to ask that a part of the book is put up, please. 39714. [snorts]
00:55:19 Page 29, please.
00:55:34 This is the page of the book which covering that trip to Cornwall. You see the description in the middle of the page of going to Rick Stein's reference,
00:55:45 page of going to Rick Stein's reference, but I'm interested in the bottom third of the page starting in bed that night. Thank you. Bed that night, you recited the words to
00:55:56 Bed that night, you recited the words to the song and you held me too tight and you cried. We won't last more than 2 years. Nothing ever lasts more than 2 years. I got angry with you. Don't mess
00:56:07 years. I got angry with you. Don't mess me around, Carlo. I've been through enough. You know that. I'm scared it won't work. It's always complicated. You can leave right now if
00:56:18 complicated. You can leave right now if that's what you think. I'm not in this thing in this for a fling. I extracted myself from the covers angrily pulling a Che Guevara t-shirt down over my head. I felt
00:56:31 t-shirt down over my head. I felt shamefully exposed. No, I'm not going anywhere. I'll always love you, darling. No matter what happens, I'll always love you.
00:56:42 you. So,
00:56:43 So, did the events described there happen? Uh absolutely. I cannot say those were the exact words, but I'm sure we would have had rows and discussions like this on a fairly regular basis. So, yes.
00:56:56 on a fairly regular basis. So, yes. Abundantly clear to you that Donna McLean was very serious about your relationship. Yes, indeed. Positively wanted it to stop if you were
00:57:08 Positively wanted it to stop if you were not serious. Yes, yes, indeed. And yet you continued. Uh yes, I did, sir.
00:57:16 That was grotesque, wasn't it? Yes. Um upon reflection, completely. And [clears throat] I've had a lot of time to look back at those times and I I never feel good about any of it, sir. Entirely agree with you.
00:57:29 sir. Entirely agree with you. Can we take Put down now, please.
00:57:34 Did you plan a trip
00:57:38 a trip with Donna Maclean to go to France and amongst other things watch the Tour de France?
00:57:46 We could have talked about something like that, but I I don't think it ever took place from my recollection. Precisely what I was going to put to you. Did you plan it and then not go? I mean, it would have definitely been
00:57:57 I mean, it would have definitely been something we we talked about. I I you know, I like cycling. I liked all of that kind of cycle racing. I think it might have been something I talked about and suggested. Yes,
00:58:08 talked about and suggested. Yes, entirely.
00:58:09 entirely. And did you cancel it at the last minute saying your father had had a stroke and you needed to go to see him? I don't recall that, sir. As I say, I recall
00:58:19 recall maybe we started planning things, but I don't I don't remember booking anything.
00:58:25 Did you tell her that your father had had a stroke and you needed to go and see him? Uh at some point, yes, probably.
00:58:33 probably. Um my father was not always in the greatest of health, but I don't know if that was made up or or not at the time.
00:58:45 Had cancellation been the plan all along?
00:58:49 along? Of the holiday? Yeah. Uh as I say, I I don't recall anything ever going past the sort of discussion and planning stage.
00:58:59 Can we go to Christmas of 2003? Yes.
00:59:04 Yes. Is it right that you always planned to be apart from Donna Maclean for Christmas itself? Um
00:59:13 Um I I think for 2003, uh as I recall, I think my father was ill that year and I think I did have to at quite short notice
00:59:24 at quite short notice um
00:59:25 um knock things on the head, as it were, and and get away. He sort of had his own health health issues for a good few years at that time. I think again I probably flared it up. I mean enhanced
00:59:39 I probably flared it up. I mean enhanced what I was telling them. But
00:59:42 But Yeah, at short notice I would have cancelled that Christmas I'm afraid. Where were you on Christmas Day 2003? I don't need a precise address. I don't
00:59:53 don't need a precise address. I don't know, sir. I would have been with my family I'm sure.
01:00:01 And you'd made your excuses with Donna McLean so that you could be with your family for Christmas. Well, and and my father who had not been well. Yes.
01:00:16 New Year's Eve, 31st of December 2003 going into New Year's Day 2000 and 4. Yeah.
01:00:27 Yeah. Can we go to 39714, please?
01:00:40 Paragraph page 71, please.
01:00:46 At the bottom of the page.
01:00:54 This is where Donna McLean is reciting a conversation she had with the journalist Rob Evans. Yes. Last paragraph, anyway back to my story. Don't write this that
01:01:06 back to my story. Don't write this that last bit down. I'll be having words with that lot myself. I compose myself breathing deeply trying to drop my irritation 3 years. So it's now established that Carlo's dad and his sister and her husband were all
01:01:18 sister and her husband were all directors of the company. I realized then that his father hadn't died of a stroke on New Year's Day 2004. He was still very much alive and well
01:01:30 He was still very much alive and well living in London in 2000 and 11. Lying Do you know I bought vitamins for Carlo to take to Italy for him when he supposedly had a stroke.
01:01:44 him when he supposedly had a stroke. You can take that down now, please. Did you
01:01:51 Did you ring
01:01:52 ring Donna McLean in the early hours of New Year's Day 2004
01:02:00 telling her that your father had just died? Um
01:02:06 died? Um Yes, that's entirely possible. He had been ill, but obviously he was not
01:02:12 not dead, but he had been quite seriously ill. I think I again was just um enhancing a story to suit my own ends. [snorts]
01:02:24 [snorts] To telephone Donna McLean in the early hours of New Year's Day Yep. to say that your father had died or rather to pretend that your father had
01:02:37 rather to pretend that your father had died is quite an extraordinary thing to do, isn't
01:02:39 do, isn't Absolutely. Yes. You're sure that your recollection is that it only possibly happened? I I've just agreed with you so yes, I I would have made that call. I I know
01:02:51 I would have made that call. I I know that I told um my target group that that had happened. So, yes. Donna said she took that call while at a New Year's
01:03:02 New Year's party. Is that right? I didn't know where she was, I'm afraid.
01:03:10 Why did you make that call?
01:03:16 I I think I was just trying to enhance my legend, what was going on in the chaotic world of Carlo Neri,
01:03:27 the chaotic world of Carlo Neri, um building excuses for coming out of the relationship, um and things like that. So, all I can think of.
01:03:37 of. You were still in the relationship at this stage. Yes, sir.
01:03:47 So, you wanted to build continue to build your legend. Um it was also part of my strategy to remove myself from from the relationship, I think. I can't think of
01:03:59 relationship, I think. I can't think of any other reason why I would have said that.
01:04:03 that. Can you help us with when you decided you were going to have to remove yourself from the relationship? No, I I think it was something that was constantly in my mind and that I was
01:04:16 constantly in my mind and that I was constantly thinking about the harm that was being done or would be done.
01:04:23 done. Um
01:04:24 Um and so I was just trying to grasp at ways of of well,
01:04:30 well, moving on
01:04:31 moving on um with reasons for moving on. So, can I be clear? Is it your evidence that you did this deliberately to start setting up
01:04:43 setting up your exit from the relationship? Yeah, that I can only think that that's the reason why I would have said these things. Um I think it was part of something that I knew would also um
01:04:56 something that I knew would also um permeate out to the rest of my target group and it was as I say, I was an undercover policeman. Um you used what was ideas you had and what became available.
01:05:09 ideas you had and what became available. Donna McLean was a loving, caring person. Absolutely. One of the most loving, caring people I've ever met.
01:05:18 And you telling her that your father had died
01:05:23 died and had done so this particular time of year was going to have an impact on her. Massively. Massively, yes. Massively. It did have a massive impact on her, didn't it? Absolutely.
01:05:36 What you were doing was pure emotional manipulation, wasn't it? I did not see it that way. I saw it that I had to find a way of leaving the relationship. I knew full
01:05:49 of leaving the relationship. I knew full well that if I carried on, I would reveal everything about me to her. Um and so
01:05:57 Um and so I I was sort of grasping for for options.
01:06:00 options. It's another example of you weaponizing empathy.
01:06:06 empathy. En- entirely so. We were undercover police officers. We It's what we did, you know.
01:06:13 You didn't have to do this, though, did you? No, sir. And as I say, I am so very sorry for that, but at the time
01:06:22 time um these were things that I was not rationally thinking about. Can we go now to 39714
01:06:33 Can we go now to 39714 at page 187.
01:06:48 Um
01:06:52 If we look at the second half of the page, we're moving now into early 2004. Was there a time when you disappeared
01:07:03 Was there a time when you disappeared for a period? I I think so, cuz as I say, my father had been ill.
01:07:09 Did you present to Donna Maclean as a man who had lost weight and was broken
01:07:18 broken by the loss of your father? Um
01:07:21 Um I if that's what uh Donna Maclean says, abs- absolutely, but I didn't try and present like that, no.
01:07:32 Well, if you were trying to use this fictional event to extricate yourself from the relationship, Mhm.
01:07:44 what were you pretending if you weren't pretending to be broken by the event so you can use it as a pretext to leave? It
01:07:51 It didn't figure in my brain. My My father had been unwell. Um I had spent a lot of time trying to sort things out. Um I was obviously also having all the issues with my uh relationship with my then
01:08:03 with my uh relationship with my then wife.
01:08:05 wife. Um
01:08:06 Um I
01:08:07 I don't really uh think further than that on the subject. I I did not go there with a
01:08:14 with a uh an intention to show that I was, I don't know, mourning and all that. Well, no. Mourning is what I was showing that I was mourning, but I didn't consciously feel like I'd lost
01:08:26 I didn't consciously feel like I'd lost weight or I'd tried to lose weight. Um
01:08:30 Um that's why I'm saying that. How were you going to get out of the relationship? Um
01:08:36 Um Well, as I say, I hadn't I hadn't formulated a plan yet. I I was just sort of looking at things and sort of flailing around.
01:08:47 sort of flailing around. Well, let's look at some of this flailing around. Sure. Because this part of the book deals with what Donna Maclean says uh you said to her about the aftermath of your father's
01:08:58 about the aftermath of your father's supposed funeral. Mhm. It happened after the funeral, he said. "His sister disclosed that she had been sexually abused by their father from age 11.
01:09:10 abused by their father from age 11. She'd held this secret for 28 years. I need time, Donna. I need time to sort myself out." He couldn't look me in the eye. "I'm going to stay with Steve for a
01:09:21 eye. "I'm going to stay with Steve for a couple of weeks just to clear my head." I realized that now I couldn't smell him. It was gone, the familiarity of his scent had disappeared. I knew then that I was losing him. A clammy wave of shame
01:09:34 I was losing him. A clammy wave of shame washed over me, nausea rising and then settling in my gut. Like turned milk. Did a conversation of the kind relayed
01:09:45 Did a conversation of the kind relayed there take place? Yes, sir. Um where I take issue is I believe I well, I know I said physically abused. I wouldn't have got into sexually abused.
01:09:58 wouldn't have got into sexually abused. Um Can we go to page 194?
01:10:15 Towards the bottom.
01:10:22 This is uh where Donna Maclean is reciting Mhm. uh achieving best evidence interview with
01:10:33 achieving best evidence interview with two female detectives from the Metropolitan Police. Mhm. [snorts] Uh
01:10:40 Uh you can skim most of it, but I'm interested in the bottom half of that paragraph. She had come home from Italy towards the end a broken man. He told me a terrible truth he'd found
01:10:52 He told me a terrible truth he'd found out at the heart of his family. He was shaken, desolate, and I would have done anything to support him. He had told me of the sexual acts that
01:11:04 He had told me of the sexual acts that had allegedly taken place including anal and oral rape. He told me it started when she was 11.
01:11:17 He told me it started when she was 11. And then it goes on back to the interview.
01:11:24 Did you say that? No, sir.
01:11:32 I'm going to come back to that issue, but for the moment
01:11:37 on basis of your recollection that you mentioned physical but not sexual abuse. Yes, sir. Um Even that
01:11:48 very distressing for Donna McLean to hear, isn't it? Yes. Yes, absolutely. But And you said you were flailing around. Yes.
01:11:59 Yes. At that stage. What on earth were you thinking telling Donna McLean about physical
01:12:10 about physical abuse?
01:12:13 I have no answer for that. It was just something that I came out.
01:12:19 What purpose was that going to serve for you?
01:12:24 you? Um
01:12:25 Um I I think as I say, I was looking for ways out.
01:12:30 ways out. Um and that was one of the things that came into my mind. Using it to garner more empathy from Donna McLean? Certainly. Um
01:12:42 Certainly. Um Is it right that you asked her to tell nobody?
01:12:46 nobody? I cannot remember that. Did you tell Joe Batty about the abuse.
01:12:55 I Again, I cannot remember, but it's wholly possible. We used to talk about a lot of things, myself and Joe. Is it a reality that you'd
01:13:06 Is it a reality that you'd asked Donna McLean to keep it secret whilst
01:13:11 whilst telling Joe Batty? I I don't remember, sir. I I don't think so.
01:13:17 so. Did that leave Donna McLean in a position where she felt she had to bear the emotional weight of what you were telling her?
01:13:28 If I had said that, sir, I am deeply sorry. Um but I do not think I said that to Donna McLean. Did you tell Donna McLean that you
01:13:39 Did you tell Donna McLean that you weren't in a place where you could be physically affectionate to her? Undoubtedly, yes. I You know. And why did you do that? Again, I think I was looking to try and
01:13:51 Again, I think I was looking to try and leave the relationship.
01:13:56 [snorts]
01:14:00 Did you go on to further that plan to leave the relationship by feigning a breakdown, disappearing for periods of
01:14:11 a breakdown, disappearing for periods of time,
01:14:12 time, and telling her that that you felt suicidal? Um I would take issue with the word feigning. I I think I did have breakdowns at that time. Um I was losing my marriage through my
01:14:25 Um I was losing my marriage through my own fault. I had deceived someone that I had met that that I did care deeply for. Um and it was causing me a lot of problems. Um I was also
01:14:36 problems. Um I was also ridiculously [snorts] still wanting to feel that I was useful and could work. Um as I say, feigning a breakdown, I would
01:14:45 would I would disagree with it. I was having a breakdown. Did you threaten suicide? I
01:14:50 I I don't recall that, but again, yeah, maybe. I I But again, genuinely, sir, at that time I was my mental state was dreadful. [snorts]
01:15:00 [snorts] Did you speak to any of your managers about your mental state at that stage? No, because that would have meant immediate removal from the unit. Um
01:15:11 immediate removal from the unit. Um and I at that stage with a marriage that was crumbling, uh a child to support, um I needed to keep working.
01:15:22 I needed to keep working. Did you seek any professional assistance? We We would see the uh the appointed uh psychiatrist on the unit.
01:15:32 unit. I think we spoke about these things. Um On top of that, I may have gone to my doctor to get some kind of um
01:15:42 um sedatives. Uh
01:15:45 Uh I think some were given to me. Did you see Dr. Palmer? Yes, but I he would not have prescribed me the sedatives. He would have told me to go to my GP. It would have been Dr.
01:15:57 to go to my GP. It would have been Dr. Palmer or one of his colleagues. How open were you with Dr. Palmer about what was going on? I I think I would have probably just spoken about the collapse of of my
01:16:08 spoken about the collapse of of my marriage.
01:16:09 marriage. So, you wouldn't have told him you were deceiving a woman undercover. no, sir.
01:16:15 Is it right that you left the flat in about May 2004?
01:16:24 Yes, I I think it was earlier than that, sir, but again, if if that's what's being said, I I thought it was earlier than that. I thought it was sort of March, April time, but splitting
01:16:35 sort of March, April time, but splitting hairs here, really. Did you move out during the day while she was at work? I don't recall. I I thought I had told her that that I was moving out
01:16:46 her that that I was moving out um because I did go and spend a period of time with Mr. Headley. She found particularly striking that you took the TV cabinet, did you? I
01:16:57 I don't know where I'd have put it. Um as I say,
01:17:01 I say, if Mr. Headley is able to confirm that, then fine. But I I don't recall that. So, would this be a convenient time to take the afternoon break? Certainly. 10 minutes or 15?
01:17:13 10 minutes or 15? 10 10 minutes. Right.
01:20:34 Mhm.
01:22:29 Mhm.
01:24:24 Mhm.
01:26:19 Mhm.
01:32:04 Mhm.
01:33:59 Mhm.
01:37:49 Mhm.
01:38:57 May I just say that I appreciate this is a difficult exercise if you do need a break at any time then all you need to do is say so. Thank you very much, sir.
01:39:07 Could we have up please MPS 0011603?
01:39:13 Mr. Wacky, we're going to go back to the authorization for the trip to Bologna. Okay. The paperwork filled out as Florence. Yes, sir. Uh this is
01:39:26 Yes, sir. Uh this is um a document dated the 31st of January 2003
01:39:31 2003 from DCI Dell to Commander Pierce. It's um
01:39:37 It's um the formal seeking of authority for a trip on the between the 7th and 10th
01:39:44 10th of February. If we could have the first paragraph of text expanded, please. Craggy Island continues to meet MPSB
01:39:55 Craggy Island continues to meet MPSB and MPOIU
01:39:57 and MPOIU intelligence requirements where the where the extreme left-wing groups, the Socialist Party and No Platform, leading Socialist Party activists
01:40:09 Socialist Party activists will travel next week to Florence to join their European counterparts on the hard left to plan their next contributions to the anti-fascist
01:40:20 contributions to the anti-fascist capitalist globalization war on Iraq movements. I'll just stop there. So, does that set out the basis that you had
01:40:32 does that set out the basis that you had advanced to your managers for going on that trip? No, sir. Um as I have said, I went explained it to my supervisors as I
01:40:44 explained it to my supervisors as I needed to go and do legend building. Um I I don't recognize this, sir. No.
01:40:52 Well, if [clears throat] you were saying legend building and they have written that it was a trip for leading Socialist Party activists to join European counterparts, are you saying that your
01:41:03 counterparts, are you saying that your managers have made this up? Um yeah, I I did not I do not think say this. I As I say, as I recall it, I talked about going out to continue
01:41:15 going out to continue adding, maintaining my legend at that time.
01:41:17 time. Did you say you were going with Socialist Party activists? I can't remember, sir. It's likely that you did.
01:41:27 you did. I can't remember, sir. I You know, that's what's been written there, but I do not recall anything like this. Um I went and discussed it with my uh cover
01:41:38 I went and discussed it with my uh cover sergeants. Um
01:41:42 Um Did you say you were going to join that you were going to join their European counterparts? Um [clears throat] That was something that I was sort of
01:41:54 That was something that I was sort of responsible for for the Socialist Party. Um that's not my question. Did you tell your managers to
01:42:06 Did you mislead them or are they are they being dishonest? I would say I obviously would have misled them um but I never wrote this.
01:42:17 I never wrote this. Um
01:42:18 Um or put in this. I My recollection is that I would have discussed with my cover officers um maintaining my legend um and going
01:42:29 um maintaining my legend um and going out to Italy. I'm not sure that I would have gone into so much detail. Well, I didn't. But they have asked you. Not that I remember, no. And you say you don't remember, would
01:42:40 And you say you don't remember, would they?
01:42:41 they? Well, they they might have done so but again, you know, as I've said, no. Can we take that down now, please? Going back to where we were before the break. Sir. You had left the
01:42:54 before the break. Sir. You had left the flat in
01:42:56 flat in according to Don Maclean's evidence around May 2004. Yes, sir.
01:43:01 Yes, sir. Is it right that you returned about 2 weeks later? Um I don't remember, sir. I I'm sure there was contact between us. But Let's have a look then, please, at
01:43:13 Let's have a look then, please, at 39714.
01:43:18 Page 100.
01:43:22 And from about the middle of the page, from the "And he did come back." Okay. "And he did come back. 2 weeks after moving out, he called me and asked to meet up that evening. He picked me up
01:43:34 meet up that evening. He picked me up from the flat at precisely 7:30. I could see out the bay window that he had a new estate car, a blue one this time. He came to the door and rang the bell, which was strange. Don't you still have
01:43:46 which was strange. Don't you still have a key?
01:43:48 a key? I didn't feel right just letting myself in. "You look a bit better." I said. The scruffy hair had been trimmed and he'd shaved the huge mountain beard back to a neat goatee.
01:43:59 neat goatee. He looked [snorts] almost normal again. "You look lovely." he whispered before we left the house, engulfing me with all the desire that used to be there. He was coming back to me. I knew it. He turned
01:44:11 coming back to me. I knew it. He turned back towards the car and I followed after him dazed. Before we pulled away, he put the radio on and we sat in silence for the journey. We had dinner in the fancy restaurant in Smithfield
01:44:22 in the fancy restaurant in Smithfield Market, where everything is meat, nose to tail they call it. Cost a small fortune, but he had booked it and insisted he was paying. During dinner, he stroked my hand and called me darling
01:44:35 he stroked my hand and called me darling and behaved like a man about to propose marriage for the second Could go over the page, please.
01:44:47 second time. I thought he might produce the engagement ring that had never materialized. I miss you so much. I need just a bit more time to sort my head out and then we can find somewhere
01:45:00 and then we can find somewhere together.
01:45:04 Did the events there described happen? Um
01:45:10 Not as it is written there as far as I recall. Um but again, um you are reading to me from a a book and I I'm not going to take issue, but I I do not recall that.
01:45:21 I do not recall that. What is your recollection of have one, sir. I'm sorry. I I do not remember at that time. Something as significant as re-establishing a relation your
01:45:33 re-establishing a relation your relationship with Donald McLain. Absolutely, sir. Um it it All I can say was it it was not significant to me, and I apologize for that, but um
01:45:44 um there we are. Well, [snorts] let's see if I can jog your memory. Let's look at the second half of page 95. We went back to the flat at the Barbican where he was
01:45:55 flat at the Barbican where he was staying
01:45:56 staying temporarily. "I'm going to show you a trick," he said. "We got in the lift. I can take us right to the top of the building. There's a way of fiddling the lift, I'll show you." We went up to the
01:46:08 lift, I'll show you." We went up to the top floor and stopped. Then he did something to the panel, and we went up again. "It's a secret floor. Come on, I'll show you." On the top, we looked out
01:46:19 On the top, we looked out over all of London at night. "Oh my god, Carlo, this is so beautiful. How do you know these things?" He put both hands around my waist and
01:46:30 He put both hands around my waist and pulled me tight to him. [snorts]
01:46:32 [snorts] He was as hard as rock.
01:46:41 I Does that jog your memory? No, sir. It does not.
01:46:46 does not. Did you have sex with Donald McLain on top of the Barbican? Um no.
01:46:53 Um no. No, but it does sound marvelous.
01:47:00 Is it true Can we take that down now, please?
01:47:08 Is it true that you resumed the relationship such that you then continued to meet up perhaps two or three times a week? No, sir. Did you meet up at all?
01:47:19 No, sir. Did you meet up at all? Absolutely, I'm sure we did, but How frequently? I could not say so, but it was not two or three times a week, so they would have been occasional things cuz as I say, I did care for her deeply and I was
01:47:30 I did care for her deeply and I was trying to make sure I didn't cause too much damage. For obvious, you know, that never happened really, did it? Donna McLean says that you did continue to meet up and went out for things like
01:47:42 to meet up and went out for things like meals and trips to the cinema. Is she right about that? We may well have done, yes.
01:47:47 yes. That you had sex every time you met up. No, I
01:47:52 No, I I don't remember that, but I know that we would have definitely met up cuz as I've just said, Were you continuing a sexual relationship with her? No. Are you sure about that? As sure as I can be, yes.
01:48:04 about that? As sure as I can be, yes. Still talking about the future? No, not that I recall, no. Still telling her that you loved her? No.
01:48:14 No. Still buying her presents? No, I
01:48:18 No, I But with some distance between you. Um, there's definitely distance there, so yes.
01:48:25 Continuing to talk about your sister in some detail. Um, I do not remember that, sir, but again,
01:48:34 again, as I said previously, we we would have talked when we met each other.
01:48:40 other. Telling
01:48:41 Telling Donna McLean that your cousin had known about the abuse of your sister. But I do not remember that, and as I've
01:48:52 But I do not remember that, and as I've said, sir, um, I talked about physical abuse. What the atmosphere was like in your family home between your mother and your father.
01:49:02 father. Um, we may have talked about it at that time. I'm sure we talked about it um, when I was um, living with her. I've [snorts] put to you a whole list of things that Donna McLean says did happen
01:49:14 things that Donna McLean says did happen Okay. after your relationship was resumed.
01:49:18 resumed. Um they would be quite striking things to be positively wrong about. Are you accusing her of lying? No, sir. I'm just saying that this is not what I remember from that time.
01:49:32 I'm going to return to the question of consent. I'm going to read a passage uh from her book. Yes, sir. "My body was used against my will.
01:49:45 "My body was used against my will. I did not consent to being a sexual experiment. I did not consent to being a mistress. Mhm. I did not consent to being
01:49:56 Mhm. I did not consent to being all over the world by a man who did not exist." Okay. She's confirmed in her oral evidence that she feels those things more
01:50:07 that she feels those things more strongly than ever.
01:50:11 ever. I said She didn't consent, did she? Um
01:50:15 Um not not knowing that I was a police officer, no. She did not.
01:50:22 Donna Maclean's recollection is that you did not use condoms and that contraception was always by way of her taking the pill. Is
01:50:35 always by way of her taking the pill. Is that right? No. Um I I did use um the sheath method and but I cannot say that I used it every time, absolutely.
01:50:46 time, absolutely. Um but
01:50:48 Um but again, we're talking about things that uh I have to think back really hard to all of it. So, fair play. Not going to argue with with Donna
01:50:59 Not going to argue with with Donna Maclean.
01:51:02 If we go back to 39714, this is the book again. So, once it's up, page 189, please.
01:51:11 This is an account of the last time Donna Maclean recalls seeing you. The last time I ever saw Carlo was late on a Thursday night outside Regent
01:51:23 on a Thursday night outside Regent Street Cinema. We went [snorts] to a long Italian film about the breakdown of a marriage told backwards. When we left the cinema, he walked ahead and flagged down a taxi. Camberwell, please, mate.
01:51:36 down a taxi. Camberwell, please, mate. He held the door open for me, the distance between us widening to a chasm. If you go over the page, please. [snorts]
01:51:46 [snorts] I thought I was coming back to yours. That was the routine, knickers and toothbrush stuffed in my handbag under my work notebook. He faced me and then handed over a wad of notes to the
01:51:57 handed over a wad of notes to the driver. Here you go, mate. Then he turned and walked off. I sank into the car, avoiding the gaze of the taxi driver. I guessed what he was thinking,
01:52:08 was thinking, and it wasn't pleasant. Can you keep that up for the moment, please? Yes, sir. Is that an accurate
01:52:19 Is that an accurate account of the last time you saw Donna Maclean?
01:52:26 Maclean? I
01:52:27 I I think so, yes, sir. I I've no reason to say no to that. Why did you end it in this way?
01:52:38 Um
01:52:41 I I just feel I I needed to move on. I needed to make sure that
01:52:46 sure that I removed myself from the situation I'd got myself into.
01:52:58 There is then on the page an email Mhm. uh which reads 12th of November, 2004. I am writing to say goodbye for the last
01:53:11 I am writing to say goodbye for the last time. I have tried, but I can't make it work. I have to move on now. I'm sorry to hurt you. I loved you more than you will ever know. Carlo. Did you send that
01:53:23 will ever know. Carlo. Did you send that email to Donna McLean? Um I don't remember and looking at the date I I don't think so, but again, that is the email one of the
01:53:34 again, that is the email one of the email address I used at that time when I was out in the field. Did you send any form of communication to Donna McLean after the incident
01:53:46 to Donna McLean after the incident uh
01:53:47 uh where you put her in a taxi after going to the cinema? I'm sorry, sir. I cannot remember.
01:53:55 remember. Did
01:53:56 Did Was the choice of film deliberate? Um I I don't recognize that film um but again
01:54:05 again I'm happy to have my memory refreshed. If we go down further down the page here It says an envelope arrived 2 weeks later. This is 2 weeks after the email.
01:54:16 later. This is 2 weeks after the email. The sight of his handwriting made my stomach churn with fear, hope, promise, loss. Contained a note saying he would always love me and a gift voucher for the Sanctuary Spa in Covent Garden. A
01:54:28 the Sanctuary Spa in Covent Garden. A full day of spa and treatments, lunch, and a glass of champagne, and a gift box to take All right. Did you
01:54:38 Did you send Donna McLean this gift with a covering handwritten note? I I may well have done. I I don't recall that, but it definitely sounds like
01:54:50 that, but it definitely sounds like something that I could have done. Yes, but again, I couldn't give you a time a time frame for that, sir. Um
01:54:58 Um And the
01:55:00 And the impact that this would have all had on Donna McLean was obviously going to be significant, wasn't it? Absolutely, sir. I've I've never
01:55:11 Absolutely, sir. I've I've never during this whole discussion that we've had said that I didn't um appreciate the significance of what I'd done. And I have had a very long time to reflect on that, and that has never
01:55:22 reflect on that, and that has never changed.
01:55:25 Uh we have been through the documents relating to your
01:55:31 your uh relationship and your evidence. Yes, sir.
01:55:35 sir. [snorts]
01:55:35 [snorts] Uh I don't need I don't think I'm going to need precise dates.
01:55:41 dates. My question is this. Is it right that your ex now ex-wife fell pregnant
01:55:52 fell pregnant Um this
01:55:52 Um this during the course of your relationship with Donna McLean? No.
01:56:00 No. Are you certain about that? I I am certain.
01:56:03 certain. Um but as I say um I thought that our relationship and we call that it had finished, as I said to you, March, April, possibly May.
01:56:14 to you, March, April, possibly May. Um
01:56:15 Um and
01:56:16 and I definitely had a summer away that summer with my uh ex-wife and son.
01:56:24 and son. Um more than anything trying to keep some semblance of family life. Um I do not recall anything after that in terms of uh further relationship with
01:56:36 in terms of uh further relationship with Donna.
01:56:37 Donna. Fair to say then that your marriage had not collapsed by this stage. Oh, no. No, it had. Um I mean, I was, you know, uh things were were on the way out. We went away.
01:56:49 went away. Um I recall that we went out to to Italy um and spent an awful lot of time at the seaside. Um
01:56:57 Um because again it was, you know, for the for the young child. Uh but
01:57:03 Uh but you you do these things to try and maintain some semblance of family life, sir.
01:57:08 sir. Can we take uh the document down now?
01:57:13 Uh we know that uh you were traced
01:57:20 traced uh by Donna MacLean with the help of others. Yes, and that you had left a series of clues
01:57:34 a series of clues which enabled you to be traced. You had left traces about your real family. Yes, sir.
01:57:46 Including your sister, your son. Yeah. Uh and that enabled researchers
01:57:57 researchers to
01:58:00 find a lead which ultimately led to them finding your real name. Yes, sir. That was sloppy tradecraft, wasn't it? Mhm. Uh absolutely, sir.
01:58:14 I would also say very good investigation as well, but there we are.
01:58:22 Donna MacLean has provided evidence to this inquiry about the impact of your deception of her upon her. She's described a continuing impact,
01:58:35 She's described a continuing impact, nightmares, nothing distant from her children, withdrawn, affecting her work, suffering from intrusive thoughts and smells,
01:58:46 smells, truthful sort thoughts of a sexual nature.
01:58:50 nature. She considers that the way that you have treated her was cruel, unnecessary, inhumane,
01:59:00 inhumane, malicious, and has led to a deep, ongoing impact.
01:59:09 impact. None of that is remotely surprising, is it?
01:59:12 it? No, sir. Do you accept all of that? Um absolutely.
01:59:24 Can I move now to the question of your current
01:59:28 current partner?
01:59:30 partner? Can we start by looking at 39714?
01:59:46 Page 98, please.
01:59:55 Um if we pick it up from Carlo has a new wife now.
02:00:00 wife now. Carlo has a new wife now, person who is pseudonymed as Peter Salmon, has informed me. This appears to be an authentic relationship, it says in the spreadsheet he is keeping on Carlo,
02:00:12 spreadsheet he is keeping on Carlo, which I have access to, genuine relationship. I met her once at a birthday party early on in our relationship. She didn't look much like me, small, mid-length brown hair, hardly
02:00:26 me, small, mid-length brown hair, hardly any makeup, the natural look. Younger than me by a few years. I recognized her instantly, call it a sixth sense. When I went to his flat in Hackney that first weekend we met, there was a
02:00:38 first weekend we met, there was a postcard from her on the fridge, from Australia. A message, funny, cautious, warm.
02:00:48 warm. I picked it up and read it a few times. Then I felt his breath on my shoulder. He said he'd briefly dated her before he met me.
02:01:00 before he met me. He told me he would finish it with her, that it was only a casual thing. He took the card from me gently, laid it on the side,
02:01:11 laid it on the side, and moved me to the sofa. I never saw the postcard again.
02:01:19 again. And then it goes on to provide a few more details, which I will let you just read to yourself. Yes, sir. I'm interested [snorts] in particularly the paragraph when I went to his flat in
02:01:32 the paragraph when I went to his flat in Hackney.
02:01:34 Hackney. Are the contents of that paragraph accurate? I may well have received a postcard from this from a partner on the on the I put on
02:01:46 from a partner on the on the I put on the fridge. Um she was not my partner at that time. Um
02:01:51 Um we had met, I think we had gone out for coffee or food, but then as I say, the the lady we're talking about went traveling.
02:02:02 traveling. Um
02:02:04 Um obviously we have looked at this and she has looked at this. Um and
02:02:10 and should you want, I'm sure we could arrange for her to come and speak to you and tell you what she thinks of this. Had there been any sexual contact between you Absolutely no.
02:02:21 between you Absolutely no. before the relationship with Donna McLean? Absolutely none, sir. As I have said,
02:02:26 said, um I met her, um and it was just we went out on a date,
02:02:33 date, if you want to call it that, and and that was it. And then I did not see her for years. Um that card I think I received because as I at that time I did not tell her who I really
02:02:45 time I did not tell her who I really was.
02:02:46 was. Um I couldn't have even told you her surname at that time. Let's put it that way.
02:02:53 way. Can we take that down now, please?
02:02:57 Going [snorts] to move now to management knowledge of your relationship with Donna Alison a claim.
02:03:08 relationship with Donna Alison a claim. [snorts]
02:03:08 [snorts] You've already told us that there came a point in time when you made a disclosure to DCI
02:03:17 to DCI Dell.
02:03:18 Dell. Yes, sir. Your witness statement dates this to the end of 2003.
02:03:26 Is that still your recollection or in the light of my questioning the last 2 days has it changed? It has not changed so because I I'm not
02:03:37 It has not changed so because I I'm not great with dates it it could have been later. Um I I cannot cannot say. I I am sorry.
02:03:48 Is it right that DCI Dell told you to end the relationship? I I thought I had told DCI Dell that it had ended. Um
02:03:59 had ended. Um but again
02:04:03 And if it was at the end of 2003 that would have been a lie.
02:04:10 Abs- absolutely. But as I say it could have been 2004 could have been 2003. I'm unfortunately had my own battles um and I do struggle with dates and things like
02:04:21 I do struggle with dates and things like that.
02:04:25 Did DCI Dell say anything about the morality of your having got involved in a sexual relationship with a a of the public? Ab- absolutely,
02:04:37 with a a of the public? Ab- absolutely, sir. As As I said a bit earlier, um he was very angry with me. Right. You've told us he was very angry, but I'm asking now is did he say anything about the morality of what you'd done?
02:04:48 about the morality of what you'd done? Um
02:04:49 Um I don't think that word was used. No. Did he say anything about the impact on your wife and your family? He He may have done, but I don't remember that.
02:05:01 remember that. Did he tell you that he would tell your wife?
02:05:04 wife? No, I don't think so. Did you have any concerns that he might do so?
02:05:11 do so? No, because I I I do think at by that stage I had already told my wife, I think. Um
02:05:18 think. Um but
02:05:20 but again, I'm I'm going back and trying to remember
02:05:23 remember um
02:05:23 um what was very traumatic even for me as well at that time. What is your best recollection of when you first told your wife that you had got involved sexually with
02:05:36 that you had got involved sexually with with one or more members of the public? It It would have been um
02:05:42 um from what I can remember, springtime or summer, cuz it was warm. Um
02:05:47 Um more so than that, as I say, it all sort of became one big nightmare for me and for her, to be honest with you. Um
02:05:56 Um I'm sorry. 2003 or 2004 or 2005? I think probably 2004 to um on reflection, but as I say, I I apologize.
02:06:10 reflection, but as I say, I I apologize. And how forthcoming were you? To my ex-wife? Yes. Um very. So, by that stage, did you tell her that you had had
02:06:24 quite a long relationship with Lindsey and a very long relationship with Donna McLean? I I think I had. I think I definitely [clears throat]
02:06:35 [clears throat] told her that I had had two relationships. Um the detail of that I I don't recall. As I say,
02:06:44 I say, um
02:06:44 um I I wasn't exactly uh very proud of myself.
02:06:48 myself. What was the state of your marriage before you made that disclosure? We was We were still struggling. Um if I'm honest, since I started the posting
02:06:59 posting and with the things that happened, um we we struggled. Um for for lots of different reasons, but we did struggle. And obviously, the biggest reason was was ultimately my my
02:07:11 biggest reason was was ultimately my my actions.
02:07:12 actions. What was the state of your marriage after you made those disclosures? Um but I think I was pretty much immediately asked to leave. If that was in 2004, that would have
02:07:25 If that was in 2004, that would have been before the summer holiday that you described to us a few months ago. absolutely. Absolutely. I think I think we would have still gone away, but I I think at that time, you know, as I say, you you tell someone news like
02:07:37 I say, you you tell someone news like that, they don't want you about. Um I I think it is important to say that obviously, once we had got over the initial shock, I spent a lot of my downtime at home cuz I had my
02:07:50 lot of my downtime at home cuz I had my young son. She was going out to work at the time. She was, as I say, trying to build a career for herself. And so I would stay at home. I would look after my child. Um
02:08:02 my child. Um and we would almost swap over. I'm struggling to reconcile that account of staying at home to look after your child with what you said a moment ago, that you were pretty much asked to leave
02:08:13 that you were pretty much asked to leave straight away. Um as Sorry. Uh
02:08:19 I I was asked to leave straight away. You can't give news to that like that to somebody and they don't say get out. Um I I made no thing there, but after that,
02:08:30 I I made no thing there, but after that, um
02:08:31 um obviously, um it was the practicalities of having a young child, and so she's going out to work in the morning. We are,
02:08:39 We are, for want of a better word, ships crossing in the night. So, I would go and take care of the the parental duties.
02:08:46 duties. Um and then, as I say, when she came back from work, there there was no working from home at that time. Um she was going into into London, I think.
02:08:57 into London, I think. Um and we would then swap over, and I would
02:09:01 would keep away from her. But, we still did those things. We still did try to be a family as such, because it was very important to me to maintain that contact with my child.
02:09:13 that contact with my child. What made you decide to tell your wife when you did? I can't remember, sir. I just I just think I became overloaded.
02:09:23 What made you decide If I understood you correctly, you didn't make a decision to tell DCI Dell. He
02:09:31 He asked you to come to a meeting with your evidence.
02:09:33 evidence. I was definitely pulled into a meeting, um and from what I recollect, um it was fairly direct, um and the the
02:09:44 it was fairly direct, um and the the term uh over the side may have been used. Are you having an affair? You need to tell me now. Have you been having an affair? What's going on? Um and that was when I I I definitely
02:09:55 Um and that was when I I I definitely broke down, um and explained what had been going on, sir.
02:10:01 sir. Were you afraid that if you didn't tell your wife, somebody else would? No. Um I I think it had become just overwhelming for me by that stage,
02:10:12 just overwhelming for me by that stage, and
02:10:13 and um I didn't like myself very much, as you can appreciate.
02:10:20 Did Detective Inspector HN 53 know about any of your undercover relationships? I I do not know, sir. Um
02:10:32 relationships? I I do not know, sir. Um I'd have to check with him. As I say, my my conversation was with the uh Detective Chief Inspector. [snorts]
02:10:40 [snorts] Again, being very careful about anonymity, does you know whether any of your other managers knew about your relationship with Donna McLean? No, sir.
02:10:51 relationship with Donna McLean? No, sir. As As I've said, I had that discussion with my Detective Chief Inspector. Um it may have cascaded down, but I was not aware. Um I was not made aware directly that he
02:11:04 Um I was not made aware directly that he had told other people. Did you directly tell any other manager? No, sir.
02:11:11 You were sharing a flat with HN 77 when you started
02:11:23 Yes, sir. your relationship with Donna McLean.
02:11:27 McLean. And am I right that you were with her until you moved into Donna McLean's flat? Yes. And as we've been through, you had quite
02:11:39 And as we've been through, you had quite an intense start to the relationship with Donna Yes. McLean. Did HN 77, your then flatmate, know
02:11:50 Did HN 77, your then flatmate, know about your sexual relationship No, I don't think so. How did you keep that from her? Um I I think
02:12:01 I I think Donna McLean may have only come to that address once. Um I think I probably would have explained it away as this was an activist or somebody I knew
02:12:12 this was an activist or somebody I knew through my undercover work. And we were sort of private, but I was sort of on in the process of moving away from there anyway. So, does it follow you were positively trying to
02:12:24 it follow you were positively trying to hide your relationship from HN77? Um we we did not talk about that. I did not know what she might be doing. Um I apologize. Um
02:12:37 Um I apologize. Um but yes, um I myself and HN77 wouldn't have talked about those things. I did not talk about these types of things with other field officers. And they did
02:12:48 with other field officers. And they did likewise with me. I had no clue what they were really doing. Is that because you knew that what you were doing was wrong?
02:12:56 wrong? Yes, undoubtedly. Um lots of different reasons, sir, but yes, that that's that's one of them. To the best of your knowledge, did HN77 have any sexual relationships in her
02:13:07 any sexual relationships in her undercover identity? No, HN77 never revealed anything like that to me.
02:13:17 Can we go now, please, to the document at tab B65 MPS0010519?
02:13:34 This is one of your authorizations. So, it's dated the 1st of October 2003. Could we go to page three, please?
02:13:48 Uh under the heading psychological risks. Yes.
02:13:53 Yes. It says concerns about those particular psychological risks associated with the use [clears throat] of a criminal informant clearly do not apply here. The psychological welfare of the officer
02:14:06 The psychological welfare of the officer is the subject of a comprehensive, extremely
02:14:11 extremely resource-intensive four-stage welfare program monitoring the officer's well-being from selection to post-operation
02:14:22 from selection to post-operation deployment. The officer will, during the renewed authorization period, undergo at least two thorough counseling sessions
02:14:33 least two thorough counseling sessions with our eminent contracted psychiatrist. The officer's health is the single most important factor determining the continuation of the operation and is the
02:14:44 continuation of the operation and is the subject of the closest daily scrutiny by the controller. Yes, sir. To what extent do you agree with that as
02:14:57 To what extent do you agree with that as a description of the care taken of you
02:15:03 of you by the SDS? Um
02:15:10 I probably would have gone to two thorough counseling sessions. Um apart [clears throat] from that, um
02:15:19 um I wouldn't really agree with with it at all,
02:15:22 all, I'm afraid. Um I think certainly in my case, um
02:15:28 um we we can say that that didn't really happen.
02:15:32 happen. Um we we used to see uh
02:15:35 uh psychiatrists. I think it was a couple of times a year. And for me, that would involve uh
02:15:44 uh having a a type of debrief appointment. But
02:15:48 But you know, we we wouldn't it would last a while. Uh there would be tea and coffee drunk, and we would go through things, but we never discussed anything
02:15:57 anything um truly of interest. It was never really probed into. Um
02:16:03 Um I had spent, you know, my time getting onto a unit where
02:16:09 where being closed and keeping secrets was what it was all about. What was the daily reality of welfare care for you?
02:16:20 care for you? Um
02:16:24 during the week, we would attend a meeting
02:16:28 meeting um twice of the week, beginning and towards the end, where business would be discussed. Um monies and expenses would be um issued.
02:16:41 monies and expenses would be um issued. You would be debriefed. Um but outside of that,
02:16:46 of that, um I think it was if you were deploying out in the evening, you would put a phone call in uh either as soon as you were clear or as soon as was practicable.
02:16:57 as soon as was practicable. Um and
02:16:59 Um and you would put a phone call in before you deployed out if you were going out in the afternoon or on a a Friday if you were
02:17:07 were disappearing for the weekend, things like that. And that pattern of communications would tell the office that you were still alive, where you were, that sort of thing.
02:17:20 where you were, that sort of thing. Was uh to what extent were you asked how you were
02:17:25 you were and that sort of thing? It It would be a general chat. How you doing? Yeah, I'm all good. I'm I'm out tonight. Okay. What you doing? Going to a meeting. What we're going to plan an action.
02:17:36 plan an action. Okay. Uh will you call in when you're clear? Um
02:17:40 clear? Um I'll do me best. If not, I'll ring you in the morning as soon as I'm I'm back.
02:17:45 I'm back. Thank you. Can we take that document down now, please? Can we have from tab C182
02:17:50 C182 MPS0010730?
02:18:00 This is a document dated the 21st of October 2002. Yes. Uh if we look it's about Joe Batty. If we look at the first paragraph Yes.
02:18:15 Give you a moment to read that. Thank you.
02:18:25 [snorts and clears throat]
02:18:40 Yes.
02:18:42 What was the source of this intelligence? I I think this would have come from conversations that we had within the group with with Mr. Batty uh with Dan Gilman
02:18:53 uh with Dan Gilman um
02:18:54 um again, I would have related that verbally.
02:18:58 verbally. Um and they would have written it out and transmitted it in, put it in. Can we have the next paragraph, please?
02:19:09 Source comment: Batty is aware that London No Platform needs a successful public action to attract numbers to the group, but is very much taken by the notion of a small committed carder
02:19:21 notion of a small committed carder carrying out raids in the living rooms
02:19:25 rooms of the far right. He is aware [snorts] that the state might well regard such acts as terrorism and react accordingly, but the recent rise in popularity and street presence of the
02:19:38 popularity and street presence of the extreme right-wing might, he believes, leave anti-fascists with no other
02:19:45 other options. Yes. I appreciate the system was you handed in intelligence and other people wrote it up. Yeah. Can I take it though that from the use of quotations in the living
02:19:58 from the use of quotations in the living rooms of the far right. Was that something you said? Totally possible. I do not recall saying it, but absolutely. Um that was the system we operated. So, we
02:20:10 that was the system we operated. So, we would have been chatting. I I may well have said that because that is what I heard.
02:20:14 heard. Did Joe Batty say that? Um
02:20:18 Um I'm saying here that he did, so I believe so, but I I cannot say 100% because I submitted so many reports over the years through conversations that I'd
02:20:30 years through conversations that I'd heard, had, things I had seen.
02:20:35 Did it ever actually happen? Not to my knowledge, no, sir. It would have been a very significant escalation, wouldn't it? Absolutely so. Yes.
02:20:46 Yes. In two respects. First of all, so far as the police are concerned, Yeah. likely to visit much greater police scrutiny. Absolutely. With the risk of significant
02:21:01 Absolutely. With the risk of significant Uh
02:21:02 Uh prosecutions Yes. offenses. Yes. And so far as the far right is concerned, once you do that to the far right, they
02:21:14 once you do that to the far right, they may well
02:21:15 may well seek to reciprocate. Absolutely, sir. Well,
02:21:19 Well, for me, um we are talking about uh two sides of the same coin here. Um I would have received this information. I would have put it in.
02:21:30 I would have put it in. Did I see anything like this happen? No, sir. I did not. For people like Mr. Gilman and Mr. Batty with jobs,
02:21:41 like Mr. Gilman and Mr. Batty with jobs, Mhm.
02:21:43 Mhm. even if they'd wanted to do this, it would have been madness, wouldn't it? Completely so, but I I obviously am I was able to report on what I heard and
02:21:54 I was able to report on what I heard and what I saw. Um For me to have reported something like this after Sorry, if something had happened would have been too late. So, it was important for me
02:22:07 So, it was important for me um and the way that I was guided that you put the information in because then if there were ever things like this, this would then be able to be retrieved and that would be a starting point
02:22:18 point uh for some kind of investigation. Um as I say
02:22:22 I say um
02:22:23 um I I put in lots of reports like this um because that's why we were out there. We We were the eyes and ears. Their evidence is not only did they um not do this is that they never had
02:22:37 um not do this is that they never had any intention to do this because it simply was not the way they operated. That's fine, but again, I could only report what I heard. Are you sure
02:22:50 report what I heard. Are you sure this conversation happened? Yes, sir. I I would not have had this conversation with my cover officers if not. Were you reporting something that was said seriously,
02:23:02 said seriously, or were these or was this in reality hot air? It's not for me to judge, sir, um because
02:23:11 because if I reported it as hot air and then something happened, obviously I would um not be in a a very good position, I'm afraid. Surely Well, can't explore that.
02:23:22 afraid. Surely Well, can't explore that. Surely. I mean surely if it was hot air, it would be for you to say so, wouldn't it? Yes, but again, I could only report what I had heard. Were you in the habit of
02:23:35 I had heard. Were you in the habit of in order to avoid being criticized if something happened at a later event, in the habit of pitching things high when you reported them? No, sir. I don't think I was, no.
02:23:50 Can we take that down now, please, and have from tab B67 MPS0011081?
02:24:04 This is um a document dated the 21st of October, 2002, about no platform's reaction to fit at public order events.
02:24:15 reaction to fit at public order events. If we look first of all at the first paragraph.
02:24:19 No platform is created by an extreme left-wing anarchist activist account of the perceived threat of extreme right-wing street activity. It will provide a strong stewarding arm for extreme left-wing anarchist events when
02:24:31 extreme left-wing anarchist events when asked to take part in demonstrations and occasionally assist in leaflet distribution, but its fundamental aim is physically to confront the far right wherever they may be
02:24:43 the far right wherever they may be marching, canvassing, or meeting. Yes, sir. What was the basis for saying that that
02:24:52 that that physical confrontation was the fundamental aim as opposed to stewarding? Um
02:25:01 Um that would have been said to me, sir. That's how it would have been explained to me when I was being recruited into um
02:25:10 um that world. Can we have paragraph two, please?
02:25:17 No platform will try to avoid police, but accept that confrontation with them is almost inevitable. Members will speak to officers when being followed, complying with basic requests, but also
02:25:29 complying with basic requests, but also trying to determine police tactics and numbers, and assess their chances of physically overcoming police or evading them altogether. They will
02:25:40 or evading them altogether. They will try to discover officers' names and remember their faces with a view to attacking them at some future suitable event. Photographers are their prime
02:25:53 event. Photographers are their prime targets and the subject of much discussion. Sympathetic extreme left-wing photographers will assist by passing on their photographs
02:26:04 their photographs of
02:26:06 of police.
02:26:08 police. Yes, sir.
02:26:09 Yes, sir. Did they ever talk about seeking to physically overcome the police? Um yes, we did, sir. Um the
02:26:19 the forward intelligence teams were
02:26:23 were a popular subject amongst us because of the very fact that they seemed to know who we were, they would take photographs of us, they would again engage with us
02:26:35 again engage with us and try and sort of wind us up, etc. Um so, yes, it was it was a a subject that was talked about a lot. That's not quite an answer to my question. My question was, did they ever talk about physically overcoming the
02:26:47 talk about physically overcoming the police? Yes. Yes, there was talk. Um some of our uh
02:26:54 the people on the uh anarchist side, particularly were involved uh also with the hunt sab movement and things like that. And they would talk about the fact that there was
02:27:06 would talk about the fact that there was often more of a chance of turning over the police and the photographers at those types of events. I don't think I ever went to any like that, but it was something that was
02:27:17 that, but it was something that was discussed amongst us and certainly when we were out um this this would be a popular subject. Did the Socialist Party section engage in this sort of talk?
02:27:29 engage in this sort of talk? I I I think we all did, yes, cuz I I recall having these conversations. Um I recall
02:27:36 I recall at point, as I say once that these uniform officers didn't know who I was and at some point I think they did identify me in my cover name. And I I can remember being
02:27:47 cover name. And I I can remember being sort of told, you know, behave yourself Carlo. What you doing? Get back in there, you know, as they would be escorting us at a demonstration of some sort.
02:27:59 So, [clears throat] yes.
02:28:02 You might have touched upon this in your last answer, but just to be clear, did you ever witness No. any platform trying to physically overcome the police? No, it was purely related to me with
02:28:14 No, it was purely related to me with regard to the saboteur events. I never attended those, but it was a popular subject amongst us. The content of the report which refers
02:28:26 The content of the report which refers to remembering police faces with a view to attacking them at some future suitable event. To your knowledge, was any police officer identified and singled out for
02:28:39 officer identified and singled out for violence in this way? Um again, that type of thing was talked about from the point of view of when hunt saboteur events had been attended and you're
02:28:50 events had been attended and you're dealing in larger geographic areas, fields, things like that where officers would get isolated. Um as I say, I never attended anything like that. Um whilst I was deployed within sort of
02:29:02 whilst I was deployed within sort of more urban things, I didn't see anything like that happen. But Paragraph three, please.
02:29:11 Sight of the far right opposition will lead to aggression towards both them and to officers who intervene. Ethnic minority officers will be singled out for particular abuse for their misguided
02:29:24 for particular abuse for their misguided actions.
02:29:25 actions. Uh what was the basis for that? Um I I had witnessed that um, at events where the
02:29:32 where the ethnic minority officer would be um, asked why they were protecting these people, but in far more forceful terms. Um,
02:29:41 Um, and as I say, that's partly why I came back and reported it, that that you had to be very careful, um,
02:29:47 um, how you were deploying your officers because, you know, you sometimes you would see the officer get visibly upset.
02:29:56 Can we take that down now, please? Remembrance Day 2002, tap C183 MPS0010918, please.
02:30:10 Previously seen reports for the 2000 and 2001 event. This is a 2002 event. If we could have the text expanded, please.
02:30:24 I'll give you a moment to read that. Thank you.
02:30:47 What was the source of that intelligence? Again, I think that would have come about from a planning meeting or a social meetup where it was discussed by
02:30:58 social meetup where it was discussed by the people that I was alongside. What happened on the day? I don't think anything, so I I I don't I'm not sure I even attended, but
02:31:09 but um, I don't recall anything, um,
02:31:12 um, anything happening that I was involved in. The far right could be violent, couldn't they? Absolutely. Very violent. Absolutely.
02:31:25 Wouldn't seeking violence with the far right after they'd been drinking be a particularly reckless thing to do? Yes, indeed, but again, we are talking
02:31:36 Yes, indeed, but again, we are talking about a
02:31:38 about a another group of predominantly males who
02:31:42 who their reason of existence was to oppose whatever way they could these right-wing groups. It was part of the makeup.
02:31:54 It was part of the makeup. I'm pleased it didn't happen that often. A theme of your evidence is there are reports coming in saying that attacks are being planned, etc., etc.,
02:32:05 attacks are being planned, etc., etc., and then
02:32:06 and then either nothing happens or not very much happens. It's why I was out there, sir. I was out there to provide reporting. More often than not, it was disrupted, whether it was because of my reporting
02:32:19 whether it was because of my reporting other reporting that had come from potentially other sources associated in those groups. I cannot say. Was there a lot of bravado that came to nothing? Absolutely. It's a a group of of males
02:32:32 Absolutely. It's a a group of of males of a certain age, yes. I I would liken it to
02:32:37 it to if we're going to talk about it from a police term when you've got a whole group of police officers in the back of a a minibus. There will be lots of talk, lots of
02:32:48 There will be lots of talk, lots of joking
02:32:49 joking inappropriate talk as well. It did remind me on occasion of being in a police carrier to listen to some of the conversations that were being had. Um
02:32:59 Um but on top of that, the only other thing I could really compare it to is a football fan type scenario where again, it's predominantly male and there is a lot of
02:33:12 and there is a lot of aggression and bravado. Um
02:33:16 Um verbally, shall we say? Thank you. Can we take that down? Can we go to the autumn of 2002? In the autumn of 2002, a television
02:33:28 In the autumn of 2002, a television program called True Spies was broadcast, which amongst other things covered some of the activities of the SDS.
02:33:39 the SDS. Did you see that program? I I did see it, yeah.
02:33:42 it, yeah. Can you help [snorts] us with the run up to that program? Were you invited to take part or anything like that? No sir, to my knowledge any serving field
02:33:54 to my knowledge any serving field officer
02:33:55 officer was excluded. Um
02:33:59 Um we weren't happy.
02:34:03 Were you given any forewarning by managers that it was going to be shown? Yes, I I believe we were. I think we were told that it was going to be uh released.
02:34:14 uh released. Um
02:34:15 Um I think at the time um
02:34:18 um it it was
02:34:19 it it was sort of deemed a positive to put us in a a positive light. Um the secrecy and all of that, and we we didn't see it
02:34:30 all of that, and we we didn't see it that way.
02:34:31 that way. Or I I didn't. Uh how did you see it? I I thought it was dreadful. I thought again it was it was verging on a a betrayal. You know, why are you doing this?
02:34:43 this? You're just going to make my life even harder.
02:34:45 harder. And how widespread was that view amongst your colleagues? I I think it was fairly widespread, but it was definitely a a topic of conversation. Um
02:34:56 conversation. Um you know, in the whole run up to it being aired. And
02:35:00 And were these views expressed to your managers? Yes. And what was their response? Um that it was out of their hands as far as I can recall that it had been a decision made much higher up the chain
02:35:12 a decision made much higher up the chain of command.
02:35:16 [sighs] Were you given any warnings to be more vigilant after the program was aired about your security and your cover legend? I think we were.
02:35:28 I think we were. Um
02:35:28 Um I think more than anything we were told if we had any doubts we would need to report it back. Um and then they would um look into it for us. Do you recall
02:35:41 um look into it for us. Do you recall any discussions about um a potential threat to a former officer in New Zealand arising from the program and the decision to relocate that officer to Australia?
02:35:53 Australia? No, sir. Recall any discussions about John Dines? I I
02:35:58 I I knew the name, sir. Um I'm sure I would have heard about it um whilst I was in the office, but say heard about it? Um about his name
02:36:09 say heard about it? Um about his name and about the fact that the officer had to be relocated. Um
02:36:15 Um Again, I I think it was taken that there was some kind of relationship issue. And how much talk in the office was there about that? Only from the point of view that the
02:36:27 Only from the point of view that the former officer needed to be relocated. Um
02:36:30 Um the back office didn't like us looking too much into things like that. Um they were very much we we could access files but we would have to ask their permission to look at them if it
02:36:42 their permission to look at them if it wasn't well, even if it was related to our operation. How widespread in the unit when you were serving in it um was the belief that John Dines had had a sexual relationship with Helen Steel?
02:36:54 sexual relationship with Helen Steel? It was gossip. Um I did not know him personally. Um
02:37:01 Um It was gossip. I may have again as I say that
02:37:05 that could have entirely been just um chat between me and my colleagues but we we were
02:37:12 were quite a considerable time after that. So, it
02:37:15 So, it it didn't really figure for us.
02:37:20 How significant was the suggestion that an undercover officer had had a sexual relationship with an activist in the
02:37:31 relationship with an activist in the atmosphere of the SDS at the time? Not that significant, sir. I I think as I say
02:37:40 as I say we spent so much time sort of on our own um that you would have these chats, but you would then be talking about other more pressing operational reasons. So,
02:37:51 more pressing operational reasons. So, it it
02:37:53 it it would occasionally come up. I think I think at the time of of that, I think the um the management, the expect inspectors, etc. um were having to do a lot of work
02:38:04 um were having to do a lot of work around it and as a team we we noticed that obviously and and that's where the gossip would come from. Can you just be a little more specific about having to do a lot of work around
02:38:15 about having to do a lot of work around it?
02:38:17 it? Um
02:38:18 Um they they didn't reveal it to us. Um the When you say it, around the John Dines case or around the sexual taken place. or around sexual relationships within
02:38:29 or around sexual relationships within the SDS? Um around the the John Stein John Dines issue. Um as I say, because it was not our business and that's how it was considered.
02:38:41 considered. Was the fact of a sexual relationship regarded as unsurprising?
02:38:48 Yes, I think so. And was that because the prevailing view was that these relationships were happening?
02:38:58 My impression was yes.
02:39:02 Can take you back to some of the questions I asked you uh yesterday about some of the files you'd looked at, did you also look at John Dines' file? No, I didn't.
02:39:13 at John Dines' file? No, I didn't. sure Are you sure about that? Yeah, I'm I'm pretty certain. Um I think that file um would have been one of the ones that
02:39:23 ones that um was probably locked in another cupboard.
02:39:25 cupboard. Um
02:39:27 Um I I don't remember looking at that file as far as I can remember, but I might have seen reporting from that time, but not about the exact whys and wherefores of of that uh
02:39:41 exact whys and wherefores of of that uh Can we have 726931 up, please?
02:39:56 This is one of the manuscript notes of your Operation Heron interview in 2013. Can we go to page 12, please?
02:40:12 If we can have a look um just beneath the large redaction at the uh Thank you.
02:40:22 He used a tradecraft manual as a guide, fieldcraft uh cupboard. Also in the cupboard were officer files. Uh you can read down. It says, "Mentioned reading Dines' Francis
02:40:35 "Mentioned reading Dines' Francis redaction files in safe." Can I take it from that that your recollection in 2013 at least was that you had read Uh absolutely. I was definitely aware of
02:40:47 Uh absolutely. I was definitely aware of of that story. Uh well, that incident. Can you recall whether Dines' file contained just material about his
02:41:00 contained just material about his deployment or whether it also contained material
02:41:05 material [snorts]
02:41:05 [snorts] about Helen Steel's attempts to track him down.
02:41:11 Do you not recall seeing anything about tracking him or trying to find him? I may have heard that anecdotally. Um but I do not recall seeing anything like that in the files, but it's
02:41:23 like that in the files, but it's entirely possible.
02:41:27 [snorts] Can you recall whether you saw anything in writing about a sexual relationship between
02:41:34 between Helen Steel and John Dines? No, sir. As as I say, it was um gossip really for want of a better word, I'm afraid. Did you see anything in the file to
02:41:45 Did you see anything in the file to suggest there'd been any disputes between John Dines and management? No, sir. I didn't see that.
02:41:57 Do you recall HN53
02:42:01 HN53 informing you that John Dines was being moved from New Zealand to Australia because a female weary was tracking him? Uh
02:42:12 Uh yes,
02:42:12 yes, entirely that conversation because that was who I understood was was dealing with
02:42:18 with with everything around that.
02:42:24 Can we take that down now? I can take you to parts of your Herne interviews if we need to do that.
02:42:35 Herne interviews if we need to do that. But in your Herne interviews, it's recorded that you said something to the effect that Helen Steel was running the counter Olympic network and that she
02:42:46 the counter Olympic network and that she was involved romantically with somebody. Um entirely possible, yes. If it was suggested to you that you were in saying that confusing Helen Steel with somebody
02:42:59 that confusing Helen Steel with somebody else.
02:43:00 else. Would you be able to help us with whether you would agree or disagree with that?
02:43:05 that? Entirely
02:43:07 Entirely possible. I did not know Helen Steel personally. I may have picked up again as I say you know, stuff vocally.
02:43:18 you know, stuff vocally. So, I would not disagree with that. Cannot really remember it. It was not Sorry to say, but it was not that important to me. I was just providing
02:43:29 important to me. I was just providing reporting about another activity. Roberto Fiore Yes. a far-right Italian politician Yes,
02:43:40 Yes. a far-right Italian politician Yes, sir.
02:43:41 sir. leader of the Forza Nuova party Yep.
02:43:47 Yep. who has led the third position movement Yes.
02:43:53 and was understood to have been involved with the armed revolutionary nuclei in the 70s and 80s Yes, sir. the group responsible believed
02:44:04 Yes, sir. the group responsible believed to be responsible for the Bologna station bombing Mhm.
02:44:11 Did you knew who he was? Yes, I
02:44:14 Yes, I I know my Italian history, sir. I come from that region of Italy. Yes.
02:44:20 Yes. You knew all of that before your deployment. I would have read about it definitely, yes. And
02:44:25 yes. And as I say,
02:44:26 as I say, when that
02:44:28 when that took place, I think I would have been 15, 16. I think I would have probably been in Italy that summer. So, it would have been in the news a lot. Yes.
02:44:38 Yes. As part of your legend, did you speak about supposed activism in Italy?
02:44:46 I think it did form part of my legend, yes. I never actually done anything like that in Italy, but it was part of my legend, I think. You spoke about the extreme right. Um yes.
02:44:58 Um yes. And did you mention the Red Brigade? Uh definitely would have mentioned Red Brigades, would have definitely talked about uh the years of lead. Yes.
02:45:09 Yes. Did you insinuate that you might have had contacts with or had some involvement with the
02:45:20 had some involvement with the Red Brigade? If if that was what was assumed, uh I wouldn't have discouraged it because again, it's part of my legend to show that I had a sort
02:45:32 of my legend to show that I had a sort of left-wing tradition. Which was partially true from my family background, but not for me personally. I'd like to return to the New Year's Eve
02:45:44 I'd like to return to the New Year's Eve party on the 31st of December 2002. Is it right that conversation turned to Roberto Fiore?
02:45:55 Roberto Fiore? Yeah, that could well have been, yes. After the engagement? Uh
02:46:01 Uh um
02:46:02 um uh at some point in the night, yes, but we we used to talk about people like uh Roberto Fiore and various others all the time. We would talk about, you know,
02:46:14 the time. We would talk about, you know, opposing activists or people who had um
02:46:18 um you know, a presence in the UK or in London.
02:46:23 London. And specifically a property said to be linked to Roberto Fiore Uh
02:46:28 Uh or his party in the Italian far right. I I have read this um Am I allowed to describe the shop or Yes.
02:46:38 Yes. Known as a charity shop? Yes.
02:46:40 Yes. Yeah, I remember that being talked about. Um I'd never been to the place. I knew it was in the environs of where I was living, but I'd never been there. I I couldn't point you to it. Very close to Elgin
02:46:51 point you to it. Very close to Elgin Avenue.
02:46:53 Avenue. So so so, but I as I say, I'd never been there.
02:46:57 there. On the junction between Elgin Avenue and Shirland Road. Don't know, sir.
02:47:06 [snorts] Who was party to that conversation? It would have been a group of us. Um we used to talk about all manner of things. As as I say, whether it was spoken about
02:47:18 As as I say, whether it was spoken about at that party, I I'm not disputing that it wasn't, but I I as I say, I have read the various statements. Joe Batty a party to that conversation?
02:47:29 Joe Batty a party to that conversation? Uh totally possible, yeah. Dan Gilman? Entirely possible, yes. Steve Headley? Um again, I I can't remember if if Mr. Headley was at that party, but yes, if he was, entirely possible.
02:47:41 he was, entirely possible. But we know from your previous evidence a certain amount of alcohol had been drunk. Can [snorts]
02:47:46 [snorts] you give us an indication by the time we've come to after midnight, mhm, how much had you had to drink? Or if you
02:47:57 how much had you had to drink? Or if you can't remember that, approx- Could you describe A lot, sir. the extent to which you were under the influence of alcohol? A lot. I would would have been quite inebriated, yes.
02:48:09 would have been quite inebriated, yes. Mr. Batty describes himself as drunk. Okay. Was he? If he describes himself that way. Mr. Gilman describes himself as slightly
02:48:21 Mr. Gilman describes himself as slightly tipsy.
02:48:23 tipsy. Again.
02:48:25 Again. Again. What's your recollection? I I don't really have any recollection. I I was inebriated. I I wasn't looking at what other people were doing.
02:48:35 Mr. Headley? I I don't think he drank.
02:48:42 It's been said that you initiated the conversation about the charity shop. Is that right? I I don't believe it was, sir. Um I
02:48:53 I I don't believe it was, sir. Um I think that whole conversation would have come up because we used to talk about things like this all the time. Um but I don't think I initiated it, no. But
02:49:04 don't think I initiated it, no. But Might you have done? Oh, totally possible. I used to talk about the history of Italian politics and all the rest of it all the time. It was part of my legend, but I don't recall initiating it.
02:49:16 recall initiating it. Did you say something to the effect that wouldn't it be terrible if something like a firebombing were to happen? No, sir. No, sir.
02:49:25 No, sir. You're sure about that? Yes, sir. Mr. Battie's evidence was that you definitely used the word firebombing. Might you have done so in your
02:49:36 Might you have done so in your inebriated state? No, sir. I do not recall doing that. Um I do not recall saying that. Um I Yeah, that's all I can say. No.
02:49:51 What did others say on the subject? I I cannot remember. As I say, this formed part of a conversation um what I would now refer to as a macho conversation, but I don't recall
02:50:03 conversation, but I don't recall firebombing being spoken about. I know that previously I I knew who Roberto Fiore was. I did not know he had a presence in London. Um and so when I heard about this on
02:50:15 Um and so when I heard about this on other occasions about a charity shop, it it was a source of great interest. Um but
02:50:22 Um but more than that, I I'm not sure if anyone from my group ever visited the place, to be honest with you.
02:50:30 Mr. Battie's evidence is that you gave him directions that night as to how to get to it. Did you? No, sir. I had
02:50:41 get to it. Did you? No, sir. I had no idea where the place was back then or now.
02:50:49 Did anybody go to that charity book shop very close to the flat at Elgin Avenue that night? No, sir.
02:51:01 Avenue that night? No, sir. Um we were out the front. There was a There was steps down um and a wall so people would go out there to smoke and things. I certainly not
02:51:12 I certainly not did not go there because as I say, I have no idea really where it was. I don't think I saw anybody else disappear off. It was more a case of sitting out there to smoke and chat and
02:51:23 sitting out there to smoke and chat and drink.
02:51:25 drink. It was quite cold as well at that time of year so you didn't hang about outside too long.
02:51:30 too long. Mr. Gilman said that you did go with him to look at the shop that night. Might you have done so? I No, sir. I don't remember doing that.
02:51:41 I No, sir. I don't remember doing that. No.
02:51:43 You might not remember because of how much you'd had to drink. Can you help us? Did you go to the shop? No, I did not. Might you have done so? I It's entirely possible. Might is It's
02:51:54 entirely possible. Might is It's entirely possible but I do not recall doing that. Mr. Batty said he banged the window there. Did you either see that or hear about it?
02:52:04 about it? No.
02:52:06 No. What Why would we Well, okay. No, I did not.
02:52:10 not. It's said that a few days later you drove past the shop with Mr. Batty in your car. Totally possible. Um I did
02:52:22 in your car. Totally possible. Um I did live around there but Mr. Gilman says he was also in the vehicle and that you drove slowly past it.
02:52:31 it. Um
02:52:32 Um I may well have done, but I don't recall driving slowly past anywhere around there. I As I say, at time I was living around there. Can you recall the circumstances in which you
02:52:44 recall the circumstances in which you drove slowly past the shop? No, sir. I I was the driver. I used to drive drive members of the the group around. Um
02:52:54 Um I I had a license and a vehicle. Um I think most of them did not. Mr. Batty he said, um the drive past occurred after drinking in a Maida Vale
02:53:05 occurred after drinking in a Maida Vale pub and on the way to the tube station. Does that ring any bells?
02:53:11 I might have driven past, but again, no. Mr. Gilman's evidence was that the the the journey started at your flat. Does that ring any bells?
02:53:22 that ring any bells? No, sir. I Again, I'm not disputing it. I used to drive people around all the time, but I that does not ring bells. I have to be honest. Um It said that you remarked on the shop,
02:53:34 It said that you remarked on the shop, something to the effect of that's the building, the one we were talking about the other night. You should think about what we should do to it. Did you say anything to that effect?
02:53:45 Did you say anything to that effect? No, sir. If if something like that had been said, um it could have been that it was being pointed out to me. Um but I don't recall that. I certainly wouldn't have said anything like that.
02:53:59 You said you would have taken great interest uh in talk about Yes, sir. Because it was a a subject I could talk about because I understood the history of
02:54:09 of um
02:54:10 um the owner
02:54:11 the owner um and his associates. Because as I say, growing up in Italy, it was a very big news story. Um so it allowed me to talk, but When Once you did know about the shop, did you remark
02:54:23 did know about the shop, did you remark upon it as you passed it to your fellow activists. No, sir.
02:54:29 No, sir. Are you sure about that? Um yes, as much as I can be you know, with the amount of time that's elapsed. We we would have talked about these types of things all the time, but I do not have a specific memory of that
02:54:44 I do not have a specific memory of that particular subject, you know, talking about we should do something to that. No, sir. Did those who you were mixing with uh do anything to research the premises?
02:54:55 premises? Uh I never heard anything. No. Did those who you were mixing with contemplate any form of action against the charity Again, I never picked up any any
02:55:08 Again, I never picked up any any chatter, for want of a better word. Did anything happen to the charity shop? Not to my knowledge, no.
02:55:21 [snorts] The evidence of Mr. Headley is that when you did raise the shop with him and suggested
02:55:29 suggested firebombing it, uh he said words to the effect of stop being stupid. Did he say anything like that to you? I I do not remember, sir. I As I say, do
02:55:41 I do not remember, sir. I As I say, do not remember suggesting firebombing of any place. Um it's just not something I would have said.
02:55:49 said. We have got no reporting No. about this charity shop and its alleged connection to the far right. Mhm.
02:56:00 Mhm. You said it would have been of great interest to you. Because of the name that was mentioned to me, yes. If that's right, why isn't there a report about it? Because obviously I did not consider that it was
02:56:12 obviously I did not consider that it was that important. I may have come back into the office and said, "Did we know Well, I probably did say that. Did we know that Roberto Fiore was in London?" To which I would probably been told, "Well,
02:56:23 which I would probably been told, "Well, of course we have. Of course we know. We've known for years." But, I I didn't really I had no clue what international third position meant or what it was um because my primary
02:56:35 what it was um because my primary concern was BNP, National Front, Combat 18. Um so, no. But, of course I know the name, as I say. I grew up um with that.
02:56:47 say. I grew up um with that. So, would that be a convenient time to stop? Certainly. Uh we will resume tomorrow at 10:00. Uh for the benefit of those who are attending tomorrow, we will not sit a minute after 1/2 past 4:00.