Steve Hedley, former RMT trade union official from Derry, gives extensive evidence about his involvement with the Colin Roach Center, Anti-Fascist Action, IWCA, and No Platform. He strongly disputes characterizations in SDS reports that he was violent, calling them anti-Irish stereotyping. He describes Mark Jenner (HN15) as part of destabilizing the CRC which was exposing police drug dealing and brutality. Hedley testifies about Carlos Saraki (HN104) suggesting a firebomb attack on a charity shop - which he rejected as entrapment. He gives powerful testimony about blacklisting destroying his marriage and career, and closes with statement about creeping authoritarianism.
00:29:38 Good afternoon, everybody. This afternoon's proceedings are being livereamed, but only after a 10-minute uh delay. Uh those with mobile devices may use them to transmit what they hear
00:29:50 may use them to transmit what they hear in the hearing room, but only 10 minutes after the event that they're describing has elapsed. uh they may not be used for recording or photography.
00:30:04 Could you please stand and repeat after me?
00:30:07 me? I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth
00:30:18 shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth.
00:30:25 Yeah, Mr. Hedley, thank you very much for attending to assist the inquiry with your evidence today. Um, my uh questions are intended to be short and simple, but
00:30:36 are intended to be short and simple, but if you have any difficulty understanding them, uh, please do ask me to repeat them.
00:30:41 them. Uh, if you need a break at any point, uh, do please let me know. And please, may I also ask that you keep your voice up so the transcribers can hear you. Yeah, it's just just just on that. I'm
00:30:53 Yeah, it's just just just on that. I'm having a little bit of difficulty hearing you. Could you stand closer to the microphone if that's possible? Yeah. Is that any better? That's better. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, you provided a witness statement to
00:31:05 Uh, you provided a witness statement to the inquiry. If we could show UCPI 38012.
00:31:11 38012. So, that's tab A1.
00:31:19 [clears throat] This statement is dated the 2nd of April and consists of seven pages. Yes.
00:31:24 Yes. And if we could turn to page seven, we can see it's signed on that final page, although we've redacted your signature. Um, can you confirm that the statement is true to the best of your knowledge
00:31:35 is true to the best of your knowledge and belief? I do. Yes. And are you happy for this statement to stand as your evidence to this inquiry with other bits that I want to um add on? Yeah. Yes. In addition to your oral
00:31:47 on? Yeah. Yes. In addition to your oral evidence today. That's in here. And sir, may I ask that that stand as Mr.'s evidence? So you are aware the topics I intend to cover in my uh questions will include
00:31:58 cover in my uh questions will include your background, your involvement with various activist groups, uh violence, [clears throat] your views on it, and the undercover office reporting that topic. Irish
00:32:09 office reporting that topic. Irish Republicanism and your involvement with Republican groups in London. The Colin Roach sent a trip to Belfast and Derry in August 1995. Blacklisting and reporting on trade
00:32:20 Blacklisting and reporting on trade union activity by uh officers. Carlos Saraki's stay at your home and reporting on your personal details. Okay.
00:32:30 Okay. Many of the questions today will refer to or be connected with the deployment of two undercover officers. First, Mark Jenner, known in this inquiry as HN15,
00:32:42 Jenner, known in this inquiry as HN15, whom you may know may have known in his cover name, Mark Cassidy. Yeah.
00:32:47 Yeah. Do you remember him? Do you remember Mark Cassidy? Yes, I remember the the fictitious uh person who masqueraded as Mark Cassidy.
00:32:59 person who masqueraded as Mark Cassidy. Uh and a second officer known in this inquiry as HN 104, who is Carlos Saraki, whose cover name was Carlo Ner. Yes. And do you remember him? I remember him.
00:33:12 I remember him. There is also a body of reporting attributed to an officer known as HN60 uh who was deployed under the name David Evans. Uh I understand you do not report
00:33:23 Evans. Uh I understand you do not report that officer. Well, I think that I did ask you if I could have photographs of these people um to jog my memory. It was a long time ago and um unfortunately you weren't able to provide those photographs. So
00:33:35 able to provide those photographs. So I'd have to say at this point I I don't know who he is. Thank you. That that that's a helpful clarification. So starting with your personal background, you grew up in Derry.
00:33:47 background, you grew up in Derry. Yes.
00:33:49 Yes. And you moved to London at the age of 18.
00:33:51 18. That's right. What prompted that move to London? Well, I didn't was I'm a I'm a Roman Catholic. I was a Roman Catholic. Very lapsed. And um the we had a history of
00:34:02 lapsed. And um the we had a history of discrimination by the British state. including
00:34:06 including murder, collusion, people couldn't get jobs. Uh so I had to come and took Margaret Tger's advice. I got on my bike, Norman Tebit's advice, wasn't it? Got on my bike and
00:34:17 Got on my bike and and started looking for work. And that was in the mid to late 1980s. That's right. Before you came to London, had you been
00:34:28 Before you came to London, had you been involved in any form of activism as a young person in Northern Ireland? Yes. Um from a very early age I was an alter boy for the Catholic church. Uh and any political activism?
00:34:40 Uh and any political activism? Uh no no political activism. No.
00:34:44 [snorts] And when did your involvement in political activism in London begin? I think um through the trade union movement really
00:34:55 through the trade union movement really through this trade union movement um I became a member of the NUR which then became the RMT and I got involved um in socialist
00:35:07 and I got involved um in socialist groups through that and when was that was that shortly after coming
00:35:11 coming shortly after I would say maybe a year or two after I'd like to explore with you by way of an overview some of the groups and organizations with which you were involved or with which you've been
00:35:23 involved or with which you've been linked in SDS reports. Okay.
00:35:27 Okay. Focusing on the time period between 1993 and 2007.
00:35:33 and 2007. Uh you explained in your witness statement of paragraphs 1.2 to 1.6 that you were involved with a number of activist groups and organizations namely Colin Roach Center. Yes.
00:35:43 Yes. Independent workingclass association. Yes. Red action, anti-fascist action. We'll come to the extent of of connection in due course.
00:35:54 extent of of connection in due course. And no platform. Yes.
00:35:58 Yes. At paragraph 1.8 of your statement, you say this. I was not a Socialist Workers Party member, but I worked with them in the anti-Nazi league and stand up to racism throughout the 1990s and up to
00:36:11 racism throughout the 1990s and up to 2025.
00:36:12 2025. Yes.
00:36:13 Yes. Noting you say you were not a member of the SWP. Yeah. What do you mean when you say you worked with them in the Anti-Nazi League and stand up to racism? Well, basically the Anti-Nazi League were um a group of kind of middle class
00:36:26 were um a group of kind of middle class liberals who thought it was a good idea to go out and um put themselves in danger. Uh because at that time fascists were carrying out attacks on paper sales.
00:36:37 sales. So we would go along and do a good deed for the week and sort of stand beside them so they didn't get attacked. [clears throat]
00:36:46 And that was with your involvement with the anti-Nazi league, was it? The the anti I wasn't a member of the anti-Nazi league. No, I was just a steward who would go along and and make
00:36:57 steward who would go along and and make and and try to deter attacks by having a physical presence there. So, how would you become involved with SWP uh demonstrations? Uh I think it was again through the trade union movement. At that point, the
00:37:09 trade union movement. At that point, the SWP and the Anti-Nazi League were the biggest I think organization on the left that were anti-racists and I think at that time as well they were the the
00:37:20 that time as well they were the the fascism was quite bad. They were blowing up gay pubs in London and the Admiral Duncan constly comes to mind. So I think that yeah that was it
00:37:33 mind. So I think that yeah that was it was just I thought was my civic duty to step in and stop people from getting attacked because uh they disagreed with fascists. Uh paragraph 1.7 of your statement on
00:37:45 Uh paragraph 1.7 of your statement on page three you explain that you were briefly a member of the socialist party in 2012. Does it follow that you weren't a member during 93 to 2007?
00:37:57 a member during 93 to 2007? Yeah, I believe that's a case. I wasn't a member of the Socialist Party. Could I just bring up a document, please? That's MPS0749081
00:38:07 and that's at B36 of your bundle, sir. And if we look at this, it's understood to be a report by Carlos Saraki dated the 5th of October 2001.
00:38:18 Saraki dated the 5th of October 2001. Yeah.
00:38:19 Yeah. The title is Socialist Party, right? And we can see at the foot of that document that your name is listed. Um, so do we take it that the report is in incorrect to link you to the Socialist
00:38:32 incorrect to link you to the Socialist Party at that time? Well, I think um what what we've done was sometimes you you would contribute to a fighting fund. So you would give them a donation. I believe that's what it's referring to.
00:38:45 it's referring to. So this is a record of your donation to a fighting fund, do you think? Yeah. I mean, so let's say the SWP were collecting for stand up the racism outside and I give them 20 quid. That
00:38:56 outside and I give them 20 quid. That doesn't make me a member of stand up the race of the SWP. Um, and as you've also touched upon, you were al you were active within the trade union movement as a member of RMT
00:39:07 union movement as a member of RMT and later as an RMT representative, including 14 years as a full-time union official.
00:39:14 official. Yeah, that's right. Uh, taking all of the groups that I've covered together, does that sound [clears throat] like a comprehensive account of your involvement with groups at that time or is there any which have been missed out?
00:39:27 been missed out? I think that's it. Yeah, I think you've covered them. Yeah, I'd like to explore your involvement with some of those groups if I may. And starting with the Colin Roach Center. Yeah.
00:39:38 Yeah. Please, can we show UCPI 37801 and page two? Sir, that's in the Colin Roach Center bundle for your note at a A3.
00:39:48 A3. That'll be displayed on the screen though.
00:39:54 Uh this is a membership leaflet which has been exhibited at the third witness statement of Mark Metaf for the Colin Roach Center. At the foot of page two,
00:40:05 Roach Center. At the foot of page two, we can see the address of the center on Bradbury Street in Stoke Newington. Hackne.
00:40:10 Hackne. Yep. And then on page two at the head of the first column, it has this text which provides some background to the center. It says, "The Colin Roach Center has been set up with the aim of assisting
00:40:21 been set up with the aim of assisting those uh Hackne people collectively struggling for a better future.
00:40:28 Those people from our community who are involved in setting up the center have named it the Colin Rope Center to commemorate to remember and commemorate the death of a young black man at the hands of Stoke Newington Police.
00:40:40 hands of Stoke Newington Police. And then if we go further down that column, it lists the involvement of the Hackne Trade Union Support Unit, the Hackne Community Defense Association, and a Turkish and Kurdish community group.
00:40:52 group. Then in the middle column starting at the end of the fourth line says this. The aim is to encourage people to organize and to take direct action about
00:41:03 organize and to take direct action about situations that affect their lives whether it's by strikes, community campaigns, resistance to racist act attacks or whatever. Um is that an accurate description of
00:41:15 Um is that an accurate description of the center when you will remember? I believe so. Um I think that at that time as well they just exposed the um Hackne police dealing in drugs well documented. You could all Google it if
00:41:27 documented. You could all Google it if you want. Um the institutional racism in Hackne police, the uh regular abduction of young black males in particular and
00:41:38 of young black males in particular and beating them to a pulp in the back of their um fans. So yeah, I think that's that's pretty much the case. Yeah. Um now clearly there are a number of diverse campaigns and activities run
00:41:50 diverse campaigns and activities run from that center. You've spoken along about police accountability and corruption. Um it's we've also touched upon the fact that there's a connection to the trades union movement. Yeah.
00:42:00 Yeah. What was your particular interest at the CRC?
00:42:04 CRC? Um I was definitely there initially as a trade unionist. Um [snorts] [clears throat] they had basically free photocopying machines. Um, Mark Medaf in
00:42:17 photocopying machines. Um, Mark Medaf in particular was good at um, I know it sounds it's it's an age ago, but um, not many people at PC skills or or could produce a leaflet or anything
00:42:28 or could produce a leaflet or anything like that. So, it was like a really good resource for trade unionists. And I understand that you were the trade union liaison officer at the Colin Center between 95 and 98. What did that
00:42:40 Center between 95 and 98. What did that role involve? Well, it would it would involve if um there was a lot of migrant workers around the area who were in absolutely appalling conditions and some of them were very sort of um precarious
00:42:54 of them were very sort of um precarious uh employment and massive exploitation. So it was helping them to to organize really and giving them facilities and translators they organize um and and get
00:43:07 translators they organize um and and get their story out to people in Hackne and wider a field. Now I understand that you first met Mark Jenner uh at the time calling himself Mark Cassidy through your involvement
00:43:18 Mark Cassidy through your involvement with the Colin Ro Center. Is is that correct?
00:43:21 correct? Yeah. Um I believe at the time um he he looked like um Mark Medaf introduced me to him. He was um I remember him having
00:43:32 to him. He was um I remember him having very long hair. He was obviously pretending to be a they called them crusties at the time that they were like people who didn't wash and that didn't sort of knitty hair and yeah I remember
00:43:43 sort of knitty hair and yeah I remember him well. Yeah. Um now Mr. Jenner I believe became a part of the Colin Roach Center in March 1995.
00:43:51 1995. Uh, can you assist? Um, how soon after that date do you think you may have met him?
00:43:59 him? I can't say, but I think it was pretty small organization, so I'd imagine within a month I would I would have thought. Yeah. So, it's it's likely as a new face to the organization come across if somebody was Yeah.
00:44:11 if somebody was Yeah. And you've described his appearance. Do you recall your first contact with Mr. Jenner?
00:44:18 Jenner? Yeah. Um
00:44:20 Yeah. Um it came across this normal guy. Yeah. Yeah. Um which areas of your interest um within the center over overlapped with
00:44:32 within the center over overlapped with those of uh Mark Cassidy? Well, Mark involved himself in all sorts of things. I mean um he would say he was there to um look look at look for
00:44:44 there to um look look at look for extremists but the reality was there was no extremists in the calling road center. What what he was there to do is they tried to destabilize a very effective community organization
00:44:56 a very effective community organization that was exposing the police. That was his real reason for being there. Um, now Allison, we don't need to go to the document, but Allison in her witness
00:45:07 the document, but Allison in her witness statement suggested uh that your relationship with Mr. Jenna centered on uh what she calls rank and file trade union politics and anti-fascism and also socializing in pubs. Is that is that a
00:45:19 socializing in pubs. Is that is that a fair summary? I would say that's probably a fair summary. Yeah. Um and there weren't any other areas of the cent's work that you were both involved in?
00:45:32 involved in? [clears throat] Uh, not that I remember. No. In October 1995, a new organization called Resistance was launched from the CRC.
00:45:43 CRC. Mhm.
00:45:43 Mhm. What was your involvement with Resistance? I was a member. Um, I can't remember if I took any any kind of leading roles. I probably was
00:45:54 probably was maybe trade union trade trade union role. It's it's so long ago.
00:45:59 long ago. I I was definitely part of it and I was I was attending meetings regularly. I probably had some sort of title or Yeah. I can't particularly remember. And it was a group that um grew out of
00:46:10 And it was a group that um grew out of the Colin Roach Center. Yeah.
00:46:13 Yeah. Why was the new group necessary? Well, because I think it was um because there were so many different groups. There was just complete disorganization.
00:46:25 disorganization. And I think that in a lot of ways, I mean, this this is another sort of uh fallacy that Jenners put out that he's he was targeting Mark Medaf because Mark
00:46:37 he was targeting Mark Medaf because Mark Medaf was a leading anti-fascist and member of AFA. It was well known at the time that Mark Medaf had physically fallen out with the leadership of AFA. So again, this is a lie. A lie. And what
00:46:51 So again, this is a lie. A lie. And what but what would you expect from a man that deceived his wife and his girlfriend for 5 years? He was there. Jenner was there to stop the um exposure of police drug dealing and brutality.
00:47:03 of police drug dealing and brutality. That's what he was there for. So coming back to the point on resistance, it it was to do with a more organized approach to the work. Is is that
00:47:12 that Yeah. Yeah. It was Yeah. Could we bring up please the intelligence report dated the 31st of October 1995? That's MPS0245625
00:47:25 and that's B3 of your bundle. Sir, this refers to a conference at the Halav Center on Saturday the 28th [clears throat] of October 1995
00:47:37 [clears throat] of October 1995 at which you are recorded as having been present. Do do you recall this event? I went there lots of conferences here. So yeah,
00:47:46 So yeah, absolutely. Well, we'll we'll look at the report a little bit more. Paragraph two refers to an anarchist Marxist divide amongst the CRC members. Do do you recall what that issue was? Is that
00:47:58 you recall what that issue was? Is that the organization point you've talked about or was it something? Yeah, it it was just at the time the anarchists um failed to recognize any democracy. I mean, you would have a
00:48:09 democracy. I mean, you would have a discussion, you would have a vote, and then they would just go off and do what they wanted anyway. So it was just impossible for K to work with him. So it was what you you you and your you and the supporters considered a more organized and democratic approach.
00:48:21 organized and democratic approach. I was a Marxist. Yeah, I was a Marxist. And at paragraph four of this document, it says this. It's hoped that the policies of resistance will attract new members, especially disgruntled left-wingers who are still interested in
00:48:33 left-wingers who are still interested in politics but who dislike Marxist hierarchy. This has some potential because resistance will draw upon the influence and respect gained from the HCDA
00:48:43 HCDA and the community involvement which attracts the anarchist crusty element under a political umbrella. In theory, resistance has the potential to grow even if only in Hackne into a credible
00:48:54 even if only in Hackne into a credible anti-establishment political organization. So was resistance designed to attract new left-wing members who disliked Marxist hierarchy? Yeah. Well, I mean there's different
00:49:07 Yeah. Well, I mean there's different kinds of Marxism. Um there there is um democratic centralism which is the old Marxist tradition and then there is is much more uh kind of
00:49:19 then there is is much more uh kind of libertarian Marxism uh which is much much more horizontal rather than vertical structures. So um the the theory was not one that I particularly agreed with I have to say but the theory
00:49:32 agreed with I have to say but the theory was that uh people who were not in the hierarchical organizations like anarchist would be drawn into the colon road center. Yeah. Moving now to anti-fascist action.
00:49:46 Moving now to anti-fascist action. You've explained in your witness statement of paragraph 1.5 uh that you supported the anti-racist and anti-fascist activities of anti-fascist action in the 1990s which
00:49:59 anti-fascist action in the 1990s which defended demonstrations and paper selling stalls from attacks by fascists. Now you've already touched on that a little earlier in your evidence. Yeah.
00:50:06 Yeah. When did your association with anti-fascist action begin? Um
00:50:13 Um I think when the far right started to attack paper sellers and basically uh the BNP at this point were on the streets so were the NFS over lots of
00:50:24 streets so were the NFS over lots of splinter groups physically attacking leftwing meetings and paper sales and even even trade union branches upon occasion.
00:50:34 occasion. And um I was kind of a trade union steward at the time and um you would meet these people and I became involved in them.
00:50:44 in them. And and for how long were you involved with AFA or AFA? Sorry. Few years [clears throat] and what form did your support take?
00:50:56 and what form did your support take? I would go in leaflets. I would um steward demonstrations. Um, if attacked, I would defend myself. Yes. You said in your witness statement
00:51:07 Yes. You said in your witness statement that that AFA defended demonstrations. I take it from what you're saying that you you were involved in that defense. Yes.
00:51:15 Yes. Uh, how did that defense manifest? What form did it take? Well, if if fascists physically attacked a demonstration, we would defend that demonstration physically.
00:51:28 You say you attended a number of counterprotests where members of the National Front, British National Party or other fascists mobilized. What was your personal role at those sorts of events?
00:51:40 sorts of events? My personal role was again they they they help um people if the fascists attack them. They act as a deterrent with other stewards and try to prevent that attack from just by being there.
00:51:53 that attack from just by being there. And if the the events were attacked, we would physically defend them. Please, can we show MPS 0728967
00:52:03 and page five of that document, please? Um, sir, this is not in Mr. Headley's bundle, but is in HN15's bundle at B27 for your note. And if we could go please
00:52:15 for your note. And if we could go please to page five. Uh this is a section of the SDS annual report from 1995 and 1996 relating to what is described there as the extreme
00:52:28 what is described there as the extreme left. If we could go over leaf please at page six in relation to AFA. It says this.
00:52:40 this. An aspect of extreme left-wing activity which has continued unhindered has been the steady targeting of right-wing activists for attack by members of anti-fascist action. These attacks on
00:52:51 anti-fascist action. These attacks on the relatively rare occasions on which they actually occur are vicious and unrestrained. Serious injuries can be and have been inflicted. SDS operations
00:53:02 and have been inflicted. SDS operations to gather intelligence about the individuals concerned in these attacks, all seemed to be committed by very small groups of activists acting in isolation, have good prospects of success. Now, this is what it says in the SDS report.
00:53:15 this is what it says in the SDS report. Do you recognize that description of AFA activity?
00:53:18 activity? Certainly not. No. Um, certainly my involvement was that we were defending demonstrations. We were strictly there in a defensive rule to make sure that people weren't attacked.
00:53:30 people weren't attacked. So does it follow that you were never present when members of AFA attacked right-wing activists? I was there when members of AFA defended themselves physically from right-wing attack?
00:53:43 Um, in relation to serious injuries, were you ever aware of serious injuries being inflicted uh at these type of confrontations, whether as a result of
00:53:54 confrontations, whether as a result of aggression or as self-defense? I I I remember being injured on a number of occasions. Yeah. By members of the far right. And what sort of injuries did you sustain?
00:54:05 sustain? Hit by bottles, um, sticks, punches.
00:54:13 punches. Uh yeah.
00:54:15 Uh yeah. And did you ever witness members of the extreme right wing suffering similar or more serious injuries? Well, it's hard to tell in a melee, but I I'd imagine members of the right wing
00:54:28 I I'd imagine members of the right wing would have would have got punched back and kicked back when they attacked people. Yeah. Well, that that that did happen. Yeah. Coming back to AFA, please may we
00:54:39 Coming back to AFA, please may we display MPS024582.
00:54:43 Sir, this is in your bundle at B4.
00:54:49 This is an intelligence report dated the 26th of January 96 referring to a meeting between members of AFA and the and the Colin Roach Center to discuss members of the CRC joining AFA. And we
00:55:02 members of the CRC joining AFA. And we can see at paragraph one it suggests that the CRC affiliated to AFA as a body. Do you know what that means? Yeah. Um at that time the BNP were
00:55:14 Yeah. Um at that time the BNP were particularly vigilant on the streets. This was the the point at which um they were carrying out attacks two or three attacks a week on people. So the decision was taken to um have as many
00:55:27 decision was taken to um have as many stewards available as possible to cover as many demonstrations as we could, as many stalls as we could, as many paper sales as we could. So we affiliated the AFA um to add our stewarding group to
00:55:39 AFA um to add our stewarding group to their stewarding group and to draw on their stewarding group to form a sort of collective collective collective anti-fascist stewardship. Yeah. At paragraph two of this document, the
00:55:51 At paragraph two of this document, the report goes on to describe a further [clears throat] meeting taking place. Uh you're referred as being present at that meeting and it appears to suggest that you were a bridging contact between the
00:56:02 you were a bridging contact between the CRC and AFA. And was that because you were already a member or known to AFA? Um I don't think I was a member at this point. No, I probably drifted away from
00:56:13 point. No, I probably drifted away from it. There was no real kind of formal membership as such. It was just um it was made up of desperate groups. Uh and at that point I was concentrating
00:56:26 Uh and at that point I was concentrating more on stuff around the Hackne area with the Colin Road Center. I did know I did know people in Alpha. Yeah, I'd met them before. So a membership almost by association
00:56:38 So a membership almost by association rather than a formal membership. Yeah, I think
00:56:43 think that that's
00:56:47 if you were an independent member of AFA and you didn't belong to one of the organizations that were in it, you just turned up as a steward basically. Yeah. So that was my that what I did. I turned up as a steward.
00:56:58 up as a steward. Thank you. Um at paragraph 106 of his statement, we don't need to show it. Mark Jenner, who provided the information for this report, explains that he attended this second meeting
00:57:10 that he attended this second meeting with you. Is he right?
00:57:17 I can't remember the specific meeting, but I know I did attend meetings with Mark, so it's it it possibly is right. Yeah.
00:57:24 Yeah. Um, halfway through that second paragraph, it says this. Steve Hedley has spoken privately to the Apha hierarchy to confirm that no one else at the CRC presented problems stating that
00:57:36 the CRC presented problems stating that a number of competent activists are willing to join AFA on an individual basis if the CRC is accepted. So the report suggests I [clears throat]
00:57:47 So the report suggests I [clears throat] think that you were able to vouch for the CRC members. Is that is that right? Uh at yeah that was that was right. I'd imagine where I would have said these
00:57:58 imagine where I would have said these people are are stewards. They've defended um they've defended demonstrations on a number of occasions. They've defended paper stalls. They're good people and can be relied on. Yeah. And that's presumably what is meant by
00:58:10 And that's presumably what is meant by competent activists? Yeah.
00:58:12 Yeah. But would you yourself have used the term competent competent activist at the time?
00:58:19 time? Sorry. Would you yourself have used the term competent activists at that time? No.
00:58:28 It's not a phraseiology that I would have used. No. And just for clarity, does that mean individuals who would be prepared to use violence either as as an attack or in
00:58:40 violence either as as an attack or in self-defense? Well, certainly um as far as I was concerned, competent individuals or what what that phraseiology means is people who would um defend demonstrations and
00:58:51 who would um defend demonstrations and defend paper stalls. There was never any intention to go on the offensive and attack people. And was one of the members you vouched
00:59:02 And was one of the members you vouched for at that point uh Mark Jenner?
00:59:09 I believe Mark had his own I'm not it's possible, right? But I thought Mark had his own relationship with people in Epha. Yeah, we'll come we'll come on to report uh now then that might assist if
00:59:22 report uh now then that might assist if we could show MPS 024 5790.
00:59:34 Sir, this is not in Mr. Hedley's bundle but is in the bundle of HN15 at C 52. Uh this is a report dated the 19th of December 1995
00:59:46 December 1995 relating to a meeting on the 14th of December 95. So a little before the report we've just looked at.
00:59:57 report we've just looked at. One of the delegates from the Colin Roach Center if we look down at paragraph five was Mark Cassidy. Yeah.
01:00:10 Is this the sort of relationship that you you thought Mr. [clears throat] Jenner may have had with Afa? Yes.
01:00:18 Yes. What level of influence would that have afforded Mr. Jenner uh within the CRC first
01:00:26 first within the colon note as a as a linked member to AFA? [clears throat]
01:00:34 That's a that's a that's a good question. Um I would say it probably would have went the other way because he would have 20 stewards to bargain with when he was speaking to AFA about things
01:00:47 speaking to AFA about things if Yeah.
01:00:49 if Yeah. So well if we look at if we if we flip the question and say what what would his influence when within AFA have been?
01:00:56 been? I I think it would have been considerable because he had numbers behind him. Yes.
01:01:00 Yes. That he could effectively commit to their activities. Yes.
01:01:04 Yes. And in practice, is that what happened or are you taking a a theoretical point? Uh in practice, yeah, we we um defended the um a number of festivals um
01:01:17 the um a number of festivals um community festivals, the Ara festival, anti-racist alliance festival in Hackne. We had office stews come and help us with that. Um that was threatened by the BNP. Um we were several times asked to
01:01:31 BNP. Um we were several times asked to asked uh we were asked to go and um make sure meetings weren't attacked and make make sure paper sellers were okay and we reciprocated with a stewards and was it
01:01:43 reciprocated with a stewards and was it was just having enough people there to deter an attack. Yeah. Thank you. May maybe we return to the document we had up before MPS024582
01:01:53 the meeting of uh the report dated 26th of January uh 96.
01:02:04 At paragraph three of this statement of this document it says this. A formal meeting to seal the pact will take place in February. In the meantime, Noah has
01:02:15 in February. In the meantime, Noah has told CRC members that there will be a Londonwide mobilization to confront fascists currently active in Felton Middle Sex in the near future.
01:02:26 Middle Sex in the near future. Um, you have a cipher list on your desk if that assists you with knowing who Noah is, but it is a name that is remaining private.
01:02:40 Thinking back, do you recall immobilizing a mobilization taking place in Felton? I felt them.
01:02:50 [clears throat]
01:02:54 We very rarely went out of London. Um that was that's right on Felton's
01:03:01 Felton's quite far. West London is southwest London. Southwest.
01:03:07 I can't remember that particular mobilization to be honest. Um, when we look at the term mobilization, um, mobilization to confront fascists,
01:03:19 um, mobilization to confront fascists, does that mean a violent confrontation or does it mean something else? Well, as far as I was concerned, um, we were strictly there as a defensive rule as I've explained several times. um
01:03:30 as I've explained several times. um whatever this mobilization might have been, it might have been a paper sale, it might have been leafleting the local area and stewards would have gone along to make sure the people weren't attacked.
01:03:40 attacked. Yes, I I appreciate you saying you don't recall that that particular, but in general,
01:03:44 general, that's what happened in general. Yeah. Please, may we display um MPS 0245891.
01:03:53 Sir, this is B5 in your bundle.
01:04:02 This is a nominal up-to-date and information proformer dated the 30th of January 96. So just a few days after that report on the meeting between the Colin Road Center and AFA
01:04:14 Colin Road Center and AFA and if we can see on page one we can see it relates to you. We'll come back to this page later, but if we go over leaf to page two, please.
01:04:25 if we go over leaf to page two, please. It says here, it says Steve Hedley, a committed Republican from Derry, is working closely with both Mark Metaf on behalf of the Colin Roach Center resistance and Harold on behalf of the
01:04:37 resistance and Harold on behalf of the IW.CA Red Action to promote both organizations. He's also very keen to become more deeply involved in with anti-fascist action. Haley is admired for his
01:04:49 action. Haley is admired for his political astuteness and feared for his physical presence. He's a violent individual.
01:04:56 We'll come back to comments about violence in due course, but uh were you keen at this time to become more deeply involved with AFA as it suggests here? I think that I think that that
01:05:08 I think that I think that that initiative came from Mark Casser. I mean, they say um I've just just read the next part. It's it's Hadley's
01:05:19 Hadley's Headley had upset some female members of a Colin root center with my abras of matter. Well, I wasn't going off and pretending to be somebody else and practically raping them, was I? Like um
01:05:31 practically raping them, was I? Like um Mr.
01:05:33 Mr. the the the Mark was doing. I mean, he was pretending to be somebody else to gain their consent and then going to bed with him. So, it's not really consent, is it? And then he's got the he's got the he's
01:05:46 And then he's got the he's got the he's got the [laughter] he says I've got an appraisive matter. If we return to the point on involvement with Afer, do I take it from the answer that you you've given that you you think
01:05:57 that you you've given that you you think it was Mr. Jenner who was keen for this? Was he driving this or was it something that was
01:06:02 that was He was very He was very keen. In fact, looking back on it, I think he was um he was probably very too keen to get involved with AFA
01:06:13 very too keen to get involved with AFA and he did become involved with a he did. Yeah. Moving to the Independent Working Class Association, IW.CA,
01:06:24 Association, IW.CA, one of the organizations uh that you've confirmed earlier that you were involved and which is mentioned, I think in that document we've just had up on screen. Um you
01:06:35 we've just had up on screen. Um you don't refer in your witness statement, I think, to being involved with this organization. I'd like to throw show you three reports then. Sorry, IWCA. I think I do.
01:06:49 Sorry, IWCA. I think I do. Um,
01:06:53 paragraph 1.2. Okay. Yeah.
01:06:56 Yeah. Uh, well, if we just have a look at the extent page two. Okay. Apologies. That must be my mistake. Um, if we look at three reports and then I'll ask the extent of your
01:07:08 and then I'll ask the extent of your involvement, please. Um,
01:07:14 Um, [clears throat] yes.
01:07:19 I think in this you say evolved for one year in 1997 just to correct that
01:07:33 between 97 98. Very good. Um if I could take you to a few reports. Um MPS0246047.
01:07:47 Uh so this is B7. This is an event performer former dated the 1st of March 96 about a meeting to be held on the 20th of March 96. At the end uh we see that you were
01:08:00 At the end uh we see that you were recorded as an expected speaker on behalf of IW.CA CA at a meeting of CRC and [clears throat] the newer monitoring project.
01:08:09 project. Um, another document on this point um, MPS 0246066
01:08:18 which is B8 of the bundle.
01:08:26 I think I need to make an important distinction at this point. At this point the fascists had moved away from street bullet that the bigger organizations of
01:08:37 bullet that the bigger organizations of the fascists the BMP had moved away from street confrontations. So when it refers to fighting the fascists this was an ideological battle. Okay. This was no longer a physical
01:08:49 Okay. This was no longer a physical fight because the BNP had made a in fact their leader at the time Nick Griffin had made a a statement saying that was no going to be no more marches, rallies
01:09:00 no going to be no more marches, rallies or punchups, something like that. So they they were no longer um trying to dominate the streets which was their uh which there's a political objective and stop their opponents organizing. So this
01:09:11 stop their opponents organizing. So this when it's talking about fighting fascism, this was was not any longer physical confrontation. Uh yes, it I I think we we we'll come on
01:09:22 Uh yes, it I I think we we we'll come on to look at it, but it's a to do with filling the political vacuum. Yes.
01:09:28 Yes. Um and if we So on this document, we can see in the second line that you're a keen supporter of that of the newly formed red action promoted IWCA. So that's in 196 1996. So maybe a little
01:09:41 So that's in 196 1996. So maybe a little bit before the dates you've indicated in your statement. Um yes, it's possible. Yeah. And the next document MPS024
01:09:52 And the next document MPS024 6343
01:09:57 which is an event performer concerning a meeting on the 29th of May 96. And the report describes a meeting to discuss an IW.CA policy document which
01:10:08 discuss an IW.CA policy document which had been written by Red Action. And then the report goes on to explain that the document was approved at that meeting. And if we look at the list of names on page two, we can see that you're
01:10:19 page two, we can see that you're recorded as attending a meeting seemingly on behalf of the Colin Roach Center at that stage along with Mark Cassidy, which is Mark Jenner's cover name. M
01:10:29 name. M you've given an indication a little bit of of what the aims behind the IWCA were. What was your personal involvement? It was the group. It was the get counselors elected. Um
01:10:42 It was the get counselors elected. Um participate in the democratic system. I think they've got a few counselors elected and Blackbirds leads the states for got two there in Oxford. In Oxford I think.
01:10:53 in Oxford. In Oxford I think. Yes. Yeah, that's right. Um and they stood counselors around the rest of the country. I don't know if participating in democracy is considered as subversion uh by Mr. uh Cassidy, but
01:11:09 as subversion uh by Mr. uh Cassidy, but I mean he doesn't he doesn't really come up a lot here, does he? I mean, we've gone leaflet and we've gone to a meeting and asked people to vote for candidates at local elections.
01:11:20 at local elections. In relation to approving the document that was for discussion, was that by a vote? either by a vote or by a consensus I'd imagine I can't really remember
01:11:32 I can't really remember in which Mr. Cassidy or Mr. Mr. would have would have um and then if we just look at the asims there's another document I can take you to MPS 0246345
01:11:50 which is B16 of the bundle and this is a document which refers in the second paragraph I think [clears throat] to AFA being the cutting edge of the
01:12:01 to AFA being the cutting edge of the IWCA in working-class areas by driving out the BNP to create a political vacuum which the IWCA will fill. And that that I think is the the point that you were making. Is it the No, that's this not the point I was
01:12:13 the No, that's this not the point I was making at all. At this point, AFA was not
01:12:18 not taking part in any street activities. Um there was a a political move away
01:12:27 move away from street activities because there was no street activities at the time. The fascists weren't attacking people. So if what they're saying is that AFA did create that space by protecting
01:12:39 create that space by protecting demonstrations and deterring the BMP from coming onto the streets, that's one thing, but it wasn't the strategy going forward because the BMP weren't there.
01:12:50 because the BMP weren't there. But the but sorry but in relation to IWCA being an organization to go into working-class communities to effectively be an alternative to the BNP's new approach.
01:13:01 approach. Yeah. So this was a this was a time where we had the sort of new labor uh Tony Blairites um capture of the Labor Party.
01:13:13 um capture of the Labor Party. Workingass people were feeling disenfranchised. They had nobody to vote for and the only people that were interested them at that point seemed to be the far right who were organizing in working-class
01:13:24 were organizing in working-class communities. The traditional left weren't doing it. Um, so it did leave a space open for fascists to grow and fascism to grow. And the IWCA,
01:13:36 fascism to grow. And the IWCA, uh, which was mainly, I would say, one of the most working-class organizations that I've ever encountered in Britain was, um,
01:13:46 was, um, a left- center organization which sought to talk to working-class people in terms that they could understand. Yeah. And and and act in the interest of the working class. Thank you. Um, the inquiry understands
01:13:58 Thank you. Um, the inquiry understands that Mr. Jenner joined IW.CA and was appointed to the steering committee. Do you recall that appointment? I don't, but it could have been true. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to argue.
01:14:12 Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to argue. So, I presume you're not unable to speak to any level of influence he would have had within that organization. If you don't recall it, I I had very little to do with him after a time. He that was his sphere of interest. Um, I was I was more always a
01:14:25 interest. Um, I was I was more always a trade unionist than
01:14:29 You may then not be able to help me with the next few questions, but we'll go through them anyway. At paragraph 107.4 of his witness statement, Mr. Jenner states that IWCA was completely
01:14:41 states that IWCA was completely controlled by Red Action. Now, for general context, Red Action is described in a summary with an SDS report with uh from August 2000 as an extreme left-wing group which maintains an active interest
01:14:54 group which maintains an active interest in Irish Republican activities. We don't need to go to that, but that comes from MPS 30836. So, in HN15's bundle C282, from your own experience or knowledge,
01:15:06 from your own experience or knowledge, is that a fair description of red action?
01:15:11 I think that once a BNP had moved off the streets and the um the ceasefire in Northern Ireland occurred in the north of Ireland
01:15:22 occurred in the north of Ireland occurred, I think um there was no real uh Republican groups that were organizing in in London. So I would have to say yeah Red Action were
01:15:34 would have to say yeah Red Action were very sympathetic there as Republicanisms but I don't think that it it's it kind of trailed in today and IWCA times. I don't think that was that was their focus. Their focus then was building uh
01:15:46 focus. Their focus then was building uh electoral strategies in working-class communities.
01:15:51 May we please now look at MPS 0246345
01:15:56 which is in the bundle at B16.
01:16:05 Uh, this
01:16:10 is a report of an AFA meeting on the 2nd of June 1996.
01:16:17 And we've looked at it before, but if you see at page two, your name appears in the um list of persons identified. On page two in the source comment, it says
01:16:28 page two in the source comment, it says this.
01:16:29 this. The overall impression given by this meeting was that AFA is an integral part of the IW.CA with its own emphasis on white white working workingclass males who enjoy violence.
01:16:42 [laughter] Scrolling. It's It sounds to me like somebody who's enjoying their posting and doesn't want that they stop us trying to invent things to uh keep his posting going.
01:16:54 things to uh keep his posting going. Really, isn't it? So, do I take it that that doesn't accord with your recollection? [laughter] There there was all sorts of people there. Uh I think in some meetings that I attended there was more more women
01:17:06 I attended there was more more women than men. Um I mean this is just like uh I don't know maybe Jenner's uh fantasy or something. Maybe maybe it was attracted to big workingclass men or
01:17:17 attracted to big workingclass men or something. I have no idea. I mean it really doesn't sound on all fours with the description you've given of IW.CA a being [clears throat] a more political group away from
01:17:29 a more political group away from violence.
01:17:30 violence. Okay. So, so I mean it's not just my opinion, is it? You've got records of local counselors being being elected. Okay. You don't get local counselors being elected [laughter] by, you know, big burly books going
01:17:43 by, you know, big burly books going around the door saying vote for us or, you know, we'll break your windows or something. I don't know. Is it's kind of bizarre.
01:17:49 bizarre. Moving on to Red Action itself. You say at paragraph 1.4 of your statement, I was not a member of Red
01:18:00 statement, I was not a member of Red Action but met their members on anti-racist and anti-fascist activities. Yeah.
01:18:05 Yeah. Um
01:18:07 Um given that you had an involvement with IWCA and AFA, why were you not part of Red Action? Uh
01:18:17 Uh why was I not part of Red Action? A different politics. a different politics. I was um
01:18:27 I was a socialist so I was um
01:18:32 yeah just different politics. Can we can we bring up please um Mr. Jenner's witness statement which is UCPI 35283
01:18:43 page 70 please and show paragraph 145.2. two
01:18:53 which is the foot of that page and then overleaf
01:19:00 and if you see there Mr. Jenna in his statement to this inquiry says Red Action, AFPA and IW.CA uh were essentially the same organization
01:19:12 organization and all pursued a policy or strategy which included the potential for violence and public disorder. Now I take it from your evidence today that you disagree with that act that
01:19:23 that you disagree with that act that account.
01:19:24 account. I mean, if if this is if this is this guy who's been embedded in the organization and this is the kind of dross that's coming he's coming up with I mean I dread to think what his
01:19:35 I mean I dread to think what his superiors were doing. This is just rubbish. I mean very being very peripherally involved in the IWC and I I can tell you that this just is not true.
01:19:46 can tell you that this just is not true. the the violence um any kind of violence was not even countenanced in the IWC. There was there was there was no need for anti-fascist violence if the
01:19:58 for anti-fascist violence if the fascists weren't attacking people. I mean, if the fascists aren't there, there isn't of anti-fascist as they oppose fascists. And if there's no fascists,
01:20:07 fascists, who are you going to fight with? In terms of the foundation and running of these groups though were were they is it right that they were all linked groups [sighs]
01:20:19 [sighs] where they all linked you would have members
01:20:23 members of red action I don't know if red action continued they they disbanded at some point I don't know when they disbanded apha was disbanded apha was no more it had gone and as a sort of stopped and
01:20:35 had gone and as a sort of stopped and became some some people went in the IWCA other people didn't. Um, so you had people who were in AFA who joined the IWCA. You had also other
01:20:47 joined the IWCA. You had also other people who were not in AFA who joined the IWCA.
01:20:51 the IWCA. So when you say in your statement that you met Red Action members at certain events that wouldn't have just wouldn't have exclusively been IWCA afa events that would have been wider than that,
01:21:02 that would have been wider than that, would it?
01:21:03 would it? So So Red Action at some point dissolved. I don't know when they dissolved. Some of them went to the IWCA, some of them didn't. So it wouldn't have been exclusively that it would have been I would have met them at
01:21:16 would have been I would have met them at um so so Red Action we're we're a key player in AFA. So they would have been stewarding demonstrations, but it's not the IWC was a completely different character. This was not a student group.
01:21:28 character. This was not a student group. This was like a political organization.
01:21:33 Now, the inquiry understands that Mark Jenner
01:21:37 Jenner became involved with Red Action and rose to become its North London organizer. Uh, we're not going to go there, but that's in his statement of paragraph 56. Were you aware of Mark Jenner's
01:21:48 Were you aware of Mark Jenner's involvement with Red Action? Well, he told he told me he was he was the AFA organizer. He doesn't tell me it was a Red Action organizer.
01:21:59 tell me it was a Red Action organizer. So, I'm not sure where that's come from. or if it's truth.
01:22:06 So presumably you're unable to speak to any extent of his
01:22:12 um at paragraph 51.5 of his witness statement. Mr. Jennis says this red action
01:22:21 action con red action connection to Irish Republicanism was the longerterm link that I was [clears throat] being targeted against from your knowledge of the organization. Um,
01:22:33 Um, is the report we looked at a few minutes ago
01:22:36 ago um, correct in asserting a connection between Red Action and Irish Republicanism? I think Red Action had well-known links to or members of Red Action had
01:22:47 to or members of Red Action had well-known links to Irish Republicanism. Yeah.
01:22:52 Well known publicly wellknown. Yes. Yes.
01:22:57 Yes. Yes. uh to the extent that in fact in the aftermath of the Manchester IRA bombing IWCA
01:23:04 IWCA was forced to cancel an event because of its connection with Red Action. Do you recall that? I don't recall that. But I can take you to a report which sets it out, but I don't think that can take us
01:23:15 out, but I don't think that can take us much further if you don't recall it. Um in Mr. S Iraqi's chronological list of deployment which is MPS 007194
01:23:27 B85 sir. So, we're on this. We're on this. We're on the Saki now.
01:23:41 Page one, final paragraph. It says this [clears throat]
01:23:49 in that fourth line down. Hedley was a leading member of East London AFA and was prominent within Red Action having a close relationship with the leading members of the organization.
01:24:01 members of the organization. It then goes on to suggest connections with London and Olster. I am not now nor ever have I been a member of Red Action. So
01:24:13 So uh were you connected to prominent members in Red Action if not a member yourself?
01:24:17 yourself? Not in a personal sense.
01:24:25 And I appreciate I'm asking you to speculate, but is there any do do you know why Carly Saraki may have gained that impression? Well, again prominent like like Jenner I mean I think these
01:24:36 like like Jenner I mean I think these people were Walter Mis. I mean I think that they were inventing things to keep their keep the easy life going. I mean they were just what were they getting paid to do? hang around and hand out
01:24:48 paid to do? hang around and hand out leaflets and getting, you know, put up in flats and wind and ded. I mean, what how how many arrests did their intelligence actually result in? [clears throat]
01:24:59 [clears throat] If we could zero, if we could move to your involvement with no platform. Okay. You say in your statement, paragraph 1.6, six that you supported the actions
01:25:10 1.6, six that you supported the actions of no platform for approximately one year between 1999 and 2000 to 2000 which similarly opposed racism and fascism by leafitting estates against the election of BNP candidates and also
01:25:22 of BNP candidates and also counterprotests against the far right. The inquiries disclosed a number of reports to you within the those documents. The earliest reference to your involvement in no platform is in
01:25:35 your involvement in no platform is in MPS305536
01:25:39 which is a report by Carlos Iraqi dated 19th of March 2001 2001
01:25:48 2001 2001
01:25:50 2001 and the latest dated report describing you as a current member of node platform which we can bring up is NPS 003460
01:26:00 which is from April 2004.
01:26:06 So that suggests a later and slightly longer involvement with no platform. Does that sound right to you? Look, um, No Platform was a very very
01:26:18 Look, um, No Platform was a very very loose organization. Had no formal membership structure or anything like that. So look, it's possible that I've got the dates wrong. Uh but I think it ran for for at the very most
01:26:31 I think it ran for for at the very most 18 months. I think it was it was kind of wrapped up after that.
01:26:41 Um if we could move to a [clears throat] report MPS 30 6652 that's B32 in the bundle.
01:26:52 bundle. This is uh an intelligence report by Carlos Iraqi dated the 3rd of September 2001.
01:27:02 And in that the first paragraph we see that you're involved in uh you're described for we see that you're described um
01:27:13 you're described um arranging the stewarding and security for forthcoming hunger strikers march in September on behalf of no platform. Um was that your role at that time?
01:27:25 Um was that your role at that time? Well um no platform. There was a there was a kind of resurgence. The BNP had come off the streets uh but the National Front and there there was a small splinter group called the British Movement and there was also a an
01:27:38 Movement and there was also a an outright neo-Nazi organization called Combat 18 I think at this point as well who were um attacking marches and demonstrations. So yeah, we've been asked to to go and uh and do that. Yeah.
01:27:52 asked to to go and uh and do that. Yeah. And again, I appreciate you have touched on this before. What would that stewarding support involve? Same same as before. Stand on the demonstrations, make people [clears throat] make sure people were
01:28:03 [clears throat] make sure people were safe, keep people on the demonstrations, that terror fascist attacks, respond physically if we're attacked. Uh that document can come down. Um please can we display um MPS 30806?
01:28:19 Uh sir this is B41.
01:28:25 This is an intelligence report by uh Mr. Ner
01:28:29 Ner sorry Mr. Saraku apologies. Um dated the 12th of February 2002. In the third paragraph
01:28:38 paragraph it says this. It refers to Dan Gilman stepping down as chief steward of London no platform and goes on to explain Steve Hedley has agreed to take over take overall responsibility for the group whilst Carlo Ner will act as chief
01:28:50 whilst Carlo Ner will act as chief steward for the SP section and Mario is chief steward for the anarchist contingent bearing in mind the latter's likely incarceration in the near future privacy will act as his deputy
01:29:02 privacy will act as his deputy the reorganization will fit in with the return to a looser structure that NP had in its formative stages groups will come together to oppose the rightwing as a united front but will still be able to distribute their own
01:29:14 still be able to distribute their own literature and act independently of the other factions within the organization. Now, is this document correct that you took over from Dan Gilman as chief steward at this point?
01:29:25 steward at this point? I don't remember that at all. I think I would have remembered being made chief steward. I think that would have been a memorable event. So, that's I think that's just invention.
01:29:36 that's just invention. Uh, do you remember Carlos Saraki being considered the head steward for the SP contingent?
01:29:46 To be honest, I can't know. I can't remember.
01:29:49 remember. Do you recall what involvement Carlos Saraki had with no platform? What was the extent of his involvement? It was it he was like everybody else. He was a steward. He would turn up and um
01:30:00 was a steward. He would turn up and um he would steward demonstrations, steward leaflets and make sure that people weren't attacked.
01:30:09 And when you say steward leafletittings, do you mean leafletittings, the people from the uh leftwing distributing leaflets or people from the right wing? So we would we would as left as
01:30:21 So we would we would as left as left-wing people um they would go on and give out anti-racist leaflets for example or antihomophobic leaflets um or whatever uh whichever group was under
01:30:32 whatever uh whichever group was under attack by fis at that point and we would go along and when they were giving out leaflets we would provide uh physical deterrence from attack
01:30:45 deterrence from attack and that was considered necessary. Well, well, it wasn't necessarily because Combat 18 in particular, I mean, they they they weren't like the BNP who had some sort of political strategy. They were just into violence and kind of
01:30:58 were just into violence and kind of mayhem. They were they they were the people who were going around planting bombs in London. So, they were really nasty people. Could we stay with the same document on
01:31:09 Could we stay with the same document on page two about halfway down the page in the source comment section?
01:31:16 It says this. Um, the council elections
01:31:25 are viewed as a gift to the NP to NP as they will bring BNP activists out onto the streets where they will be vulnerable to attack from NP.
01:31:37 vulnerable to attack from NP. Police attention is expected to be low due to the nature of election canvasing and therefore the potential for violent confrontation is high. So it seems here that the suggestion
01:31:48 So it seems here that the suggestion being that the BNP would be on the streets to canvas for local elections uh and that this meant that the com the potential for violent confrontation uh was high. Why why do you think that
01:32:01 uh was high. Why why do you think that would have been the case? I have no idea. I mean I I just think this is another example of um Ner um making making things fit his his uh
01:32:12 making making things fit his his uh strategy. I mean has which is which is the sort of sponge off a taxpayer and get paid to lounge about drinking beer all day. Um this there was never never
01:32:24 all day. Um this there was never never any point where where I was certainly present that no platform went oh we're going to go and attack the BMP when they're leafleting. I mean
01:32:45 Um, please may we go to MPS 0073 04
01:32:54 04 C3 in the bundle zone. This is an SDS document headed overview of militant anti-fascism in London and beyond since 2000.
01:33:05 2000. On page one, fifth paragraph,
01:33:11 [clears throat]
01:33:13 second line, we see you're described as a founder member of no platform and it said that the group was established to violently confront the extreme rightwing whenever they were
01:33:24 extreme rightwing whenever they were engaged in street activity. Uh then at the final paragraph on page one, an overleaf to page two, it says this.
01:33:35 this. The motivation of the different founders of the group varied according to their political backgrounds. Mario, Privacy, and Headley came from an AFA red action background. They
01:33:47 AFA red action background. They vehemently disagreed with the direction taken by their leadership and believed that violent street activity was a very useful and legitimate tactic dealing with the extreme rightwing.
01:33:58 with the extreme rightwing. Um, the name that's been redactive of privacy is on your cipher list if that if that assists you. But putting it bluntly, was no platform established to violently confront the
01:34:10 established to violently confront the extreme right-wing whenever they're engaged in street activity? No platform was established to provide protection for a stewarding group for people on the left when they were giving
01:34:23 people on the left when they were giving out leaflets, demonstrations, and meetings.
01:34:26 meetings. Was it your view at the time that violence was a very useful and legitimate tactic to deal with the extreme rightwing? I think in a defensive capacity was absolutely necessary because otherwise
01:34:39 absolutely necessary because otherwise it's it's a f fascist tactic to control the streets and to stop their opponents um organizing politically. And if they're successful in doing that, if the
01:34:50 they're successful in doing that, if the left are afraid to come on the streets, then the fascists win. And that's that was a tactic adopted by Adolf Hitler. So we would act purely in a defensive role
01:35:01 we would act purely in a defensive role to maintain a political and legitimate space for people um who had different views for fascism. So this document when it includes that summary in its overview is wrong.
01:35:15 summary in its overview is wrong. Well, I think it's um again it's come from a man who's who's uh pretended to be somebody else for a number of years, conned several different women in the relationships with him. Um I don't He
01:35:28 relationships with him. Um I don't He had a wife as well, didn't he? Um so I mean if you're talking about the sort of uh veracity and believability of it, that's the sort of
01:35:39 believability of it, that's the sort of character you're dealing with, isn't it? Returning to the topic of roles within no platform, please can we show MPS 307391
01:35:51 307391 that's B38 in the bundle. [clears throat]
01:36:04 This is a report as we can see dated 26th of November 2001 with the title no platform current structure uh reporting on a meeting at the Royal Oak public house in Burough and it says
01:36:17 Oak public house in Burough and it says it's held to formalize positions of responsibility for activists in the London section of no platform. Looking at the first paragraph and the fourth line of that paragraph
01:36:28 fourth line of that paragraph the report suggests that you're present at the meeting. Do you remember this meeting?
01:36:38 the Royal Oak. No, I don't ever meet I don't recall the name of the pub. Um, it's possible. It's possible. Well, we'll go on and see whether it
01:36:49 Well, we'll go on and see whether it jogs any memory. Um, in in the third paragraph, your name appears next to responsibility for fundraising union work.
01:36:56 work. So, is that accurate? What did the that that would that would have a lot of credibility? Yeah, that's what I would have done. Yeah. Trade union work and fundraising. Yeah. Is that what you did do or or
01:37:07 Is that what you did do or or Yeah. Yeah. It's for Yeah. Uh and if we also look, we can see there is a report to Carlo. Um in the foot of the document, he's
01:37:18 Um in the foot of the document, he's Carlo SNU. And in that section that we've just looked at, he's given the responsibility for communications.
01:37:28 On page three, [clears throat] the handler's comment suggests that Carlo is Carlo Saraki.
01:37:41 suggests that Carlo is Carlo Saraki. Well, Carlo Ner, the cover name of Carlos Saraki. Uh, do you remember Carlos Saraki having responsibility for communications? No.
01:37:51 No. Was that a role of which you were aware within the organization? I I [snorts] can't remember. I remember what I don't I remember.
01:38:02 what I don't I remember. Do you recall Carlos Sarrai being influential within the platform?
01:38:08 Yeah, he was fairly influential. Yeah. Yeah.
01:38:11 Yeah. In what ways was he influential? Um he was popular. Um then he kind of he went off the rails a little bit. Um
01:38:23 he went off the rails a little bit. Um he tried to entrap people on the fire bomb and I just
01:38:29 just stop you there because we will come back to that in some detail. Okay. Um I don't want to
01:38:34 want to I think you will have you'll have ample time to address that. I'm I'm conscious of the time sir. I'm about to move into another section of questioning. Is it opportunity for an
01:38:45 questioning. Is it opportunity for an afternoon break or would you like to go first?
01:38:47 first? I think it forgive me. I think it would be.
01:38:52 be. Hello.
01:38:54 Hello. 10 minutes. 10 minutes.
01:38:58 Apologies. 10 minutes.
01:55:39 [clears throat and cough] Mr. Hedley, I'd like to explore a little further your attitude towards violence in general terms and then look at some reports on that topic. Please, in your witness statement at paragraph
01:55:50 in your witness statement at paragraph 1.11, you say, "I was only prepared to use violence in self-defense if attacked by members of the far right." And that's been your evidence uh again today, hasn't it?
01:56:02 hasn't it? Um in relation to the times where you have felt compelled to use violence in self-defense, can you think whether any of those attacks would have happened in the pre
01:56:13 attacks would have happened in the pre in the presence of either Mr. Jenner or Mr. Saraki. Certainly in the presence of Mr. Jenner um
01:56:22 um there was an orange order march through London which was not um not particularly an issue. The issue was
01:56:33 not particularly an issue. The issue was that they had combat 18 neo-Nazi people
01:56:39 people with them uh who who said that they were going to attack various um places where left people met around the Hobburn area as far as I could remember.
01:56:50 as far as I could remember. And at that point I witnessed um I witnessed Mark Cassidy striking a member of the Orange Order who [clears throat] who I believe was trying to attack him.
01:57:02 who I believe was trying to attack him. And I was think I I think I went the I went the Mark's aid and uh pushed away the member of the Orange Order from Mark as well.
01:57:15 Was that um an incident at the White Hart public house, do you think? I believe it was. Yeah, we'll come back to that if if if I may uh in due course. But the question I
01:57:27 uh in due course. But the question I asked was
01:57:28 asked was when [clears throat] you used self-defense when you used violence in self-defense. Yeah.
01:57:34 Yeah. Would Saraki or Jenner have seen it? Mr. Saraki or Mr. Jenner saw it on that occasion because there was not more than one of them. They were trying to attack us
01:57:46 us and a sort of um a mob tried to attack us outside that public house and and uh I think he witnessed uh me defending myself there part partly
01:57:58 uh me defending myself there part partly to defend him partly to defend myself and in your view would the fact that it was self-defense have been obvious to an observer
01:58:09 observer depends what the what view the observer had if the the observer had a clean clear and unobstructed view. I I would have thought so.
01:58:23 Could we return please to the nominal proformer from the 30th of January 96 which we looked at earlier. Uh MPS 0245891
01:58:36 that's B5 sir.
01:58:42 And I'd like to explore a couple of points in it. On page one, in the section at the foot of the page, Richard Pex says, "Violent
01:58:55 of the page, Richard Pex says, "Violent and strong Irish accent." And then at page two, in the second paragraph, it says, "Heedley is admired for his
01:59:06 it says, "Heedley is admired for his political astuteness and feared for his physical presence. He is a violent individual. Now, there's nothing specific in this report to support in this report to support
01:59:18 this report to support the comments that you were violent. Are you aware of any reason why Mark Jenner would have described you in this way? He's playing up the well-known
01:59:29 He's playing up the well-known stereotypes about the Irish. In fact, um there's not a stereotype in there. is not playing up to the fact that I'm working class, the fact that I'm um
01:59:40 working class, the fact that I'm um uh broad, I'd imagine. Um the fact that I've got an Irish accent, uh is something that unfortunately a lot of English people associate with aggression. I don't think I'm a a particularly
01:59:52 I don't think I'm a a particularly aggressive individual. Um you know, just a little bit about myself that he hasn't put in there. I've got a BA. I've got a master's degree. I've got a PGCE. You know, I'm not some thug that hangs
02:00:03 You know, I'm not some thug that hangs around just want to attack people. Now, he would have known you for about nine months by this stage. Uh, would you have attended events together by the
02:00:15 have attended events together by the time he drafted it? I would imagine yes, we would have. Yeah.
02:00:19 Yeah. And would he have seen you being involved in violence other than other than when I went to this is sorry, this is um this is the end of January 19. This is
02:00:31 this is the end of January 19. This is Yes. No,
02:00:32 Yes. No, I I don't think he I don't think that was the case at all. No. Um, would you have told him either seriously or in justest about having been involved in violence in the past?
02:00:46 Well, I mean, if some if you were attacked by people, you would tell them that you defended yourself. That that happens. Yeah, perhaps. Yeah, more than likely. Yeah. Were you aware
02:00:58 more than likely. Yeah. Were you aware that you were thought of or certainly in this case described in that in those terms? No, I I wasn't. And I think that's probably not the view that most people
02:01:09 probably not the view that most people had of me, you know. Um again, we've got somebody here um who's um being paid the uh days with two women. One his wife and
02:01:20 uh days with two women. One his wife and another one somebody had con relationship. He was having free beers and uh what what what what was he smoking? Cannabis or something? Was it um drugs?
02:01:31 um drugs? So, I don't know how reliable his memory would be. I don't know what effect that would have on people. If I could return to some specific reporting on violence in which
02:01:43 reporting on violence in which we think you were involved or said to be involved, please. Can we show on screen MPS 0246066?
02:01:57 This is another um nominal up to-date information preform and we get can see again in the pec section it repeats violent and this time adds that you are
02:02:08 violent and this time adds that you are said to be a heavy drinker. I didn't realize that was a crime. Also within the report, it includes reporting on your family
02:02:22 it includes reporting on your family life.
02:02:23 life. So, so hold on. I I I do admit I've got a strong Irish accent. Um I I do admit I had the odd pint of Guinness, half of Guinness.
02:02:34 Guinness, half of Guinness. Uh the only violence I've ever employed outside of a boxing ring is def self-defense.
02:02:42 Uh and in the second paragraph it says this there's
02:02:49 it refers to you being arrested while fly posting with Mark Metaf. And then it goes on to say it is said that Hedley was tempted to use violence against his
02:03:00 was tempted to use violence against his arresting officer but was restrained by the fact that his van was parked nearby and may well have been noted. Now you address this incident in your statement paragraph 2.6 six where you say the
02:03:12 paragraph 2.6 six where you say the accusation that I ever considered assaulting an arresting officer is nonsense. I was released and not even charged.
02:03:18 charged. Yeah. Um
02:03:21 Yeah. Um from what I remember it, I wasn't even the person that was fly posting. I was in a van. Um some little copper came up to the van and searched me and brought
02:03:33 to the van and searched me and brought me to heck the police station and then I got released. Why? Why? Why you under on under heaven? would have attacked him. What what partic what reason? Uh was Mr. Jenner present when you were
02:03:45 Uh was Mr. Jenner present when you were arrested?
02:03:46 arrested? I don't think he was. No. The report also comments on what it describes as your temperament. It says Heedley's comrades are concerned
02:03:59 It says Heedley's comrades are concerned that he's becoming more volatile and that he will inevitably get himself and them involved in troublesome situations. Uh
02:04:10 Uh the report also suggests that your heavy drinking was exacerbating your already short temper. Okay. Right. So So this is this is from the guy the liar the liar who who
02:04:23 the guy the liar the liar who who perused between two different women. One his wife and leading this double life and then he uses every stereotype under the sun to describe an Irish person. You
02:04:34 the sun to describe an Irish person. You want me to take this seriously to you? The question, Mr. Hedley, is this is it accurate?
02:04:41 accurate? It's not accurate. What were there any concerns about your temper at that time?
02:04:50 Certainly none that were brought to my attention. I mean, I used to go out with Mark two pubs. I was never in a never in a fight with any sort of altercation
02:05:03 with any sort of altercation when Mark was present. as far as I'm concerned, except when we were defending ourselves against fascists. I mean, this is just pure invention again.
02:05:14 is just pure invention again. Could we return please to MPS 30652 [clears throat] uh B32, which is the report of the 3rd of September 2001 concerning the hunger strikers march.
02:05:27 strikers march. Could I now take you to the second half of paragraph one please?
02:05:37 It states, "Heedley believes that no platform MP no platform should have no part in the main demonstration where they'll be subject to police scrutiny and that they should attack the right-wing opposition as they arrive in
02:05:48 right-wing opposition as they arrive in London in the morning and then around the periphery of the march. This was contrary to Dan Gilman's agreement with the organizers that NP would be a visible security force at the event. Now
02:06:00 visible security force at the event. Now on the face of it, this report suggests that you wanted to implement this tactic to facilitate attacks on the right wing. Was that the case? No, absolutely not. And as if my memory
02:06:12 No, absolutely not. And as if my memory serves me correctly, we did go as a stewarding organization on that march. We did not go off and do anything else adventurous kind of tactics at all. Do you think the event went ahead?
02:06:24 Do you think the event went ahead? I think it did. Yeah. Can I take you to MPS 306854?
02:06:41 Now I this suggests that the hunger strikers commemoration march was uh cancelled. Right. Okay. But whilst we are whilst we have this up, the second and third lines
02:06:54 have this up, the second and third lines say 35 NP activists were available to steward the event and a confrontation with the right-wing was anticipated.
02:07:06 Now the implication I think there is that a confrontation was anticipated because it was sought out. What do you say to that? Well, look, it seems to completely contradict what was said
02:07:17 completely contradict what was said before because what was said before is that people weren't going to steward the march. They were going to go off and attack people on the periphery. And now they're saying that there was 35 activists who were stewards who were
02:07:28 activists who were stewards who were available to steward the march. So it it can't even keep continuity between one page and the next. Well, this is a different just to be just to be clear, this is a different report.
02:07:39 report. Oh, but the same person but the same person.
02:07:41 person. Same person. Okay. same event. So, okay. So, it didn't m it didn't change his story on the next page. He changed it on the next report. Noted.
02:07:51 Noted. If we could bring up MPS 308753, please. That's B47. Sir,
02:08:04 this is a report of the 30th of April, 2002.
02:08:08 2002. And the title of the report, Steve [clears throat] Hedley breaks from no platform.
02:08:12 platform. The first paragraph says this. Steve Hedley, a leading member of No Platform, has stated his intention to take a break from No Platform activity. He has become disillusioned with the group as he had hoped it would follow a more political
02:08:23 hoped it would follow a more political party type line similar to the independent working-class association. In addition to militant anti-fascist activity, this [clears throat] view is at odds with other NP activists who see
02:08:35 at odds with other NP activists who see the group simply as a vehicle for violent confrontation with the extreme rightwing.
02:08:42 So, so here was I described as a violent drunken thug wanted to now I want to pursue a political strategy and don't want to get involved in violent drunken thugy which other members alleges do. So
02:08:55 thugy which other members alleges do. So again big contradictions in his evidence, isn't there? Well well can I can we explore this account? It seems to suggest that you were unhappy with violence with no
02:09:06 you were unhappy with violence with no platform and looked to leave. Is that right?
02:09:10 right? I've I've made it very clear and been consistent when I've talked in my opinion
02:09:17 opinion anti-fascists are are um the role of violence is simply in self-defense and it should be used to steward demonstrations and protect mutants and
02:09:28 demonstrations and protect mutants and leaflets.
02:09:32 Looking back at all of the reporting uh that refers to you as being violent, have you seen any report that describes you actually carrying out acts of
02:09:43 you actually carrying out acts of violence?
02:09:46 violence? Um,
02:09:51 not that I remember. Um, there could be some. I I don't know what he's what he's written. Um to be honest I haven't really read a lot of what has been said rather than the
02:10:03 of what has been said rather than the questions that I was answer asked. So So within the reporting right I'm sure be corrected if I'm wrong but I've read it [clears throat] and I have seen nothing to suggest that
02:10:16 have seen nothing to suggest that describes you carrying out acts of violence in that. Can you assist why both Mr. Jenner and Mr. Iraqi reported that you were violent often within their
02:10:27 that you were violent often within their reporting. Well, well, this is strange, isn't it? Because if I was violent, surely they would have reported that and details of where I was violent when I was violent. Um, [clears throat] surely I would have been if I was going
02:10:39 surely I would have been if I was going to be violent towards people that would be assault if I was initiating the violence. I've not got any criminal record.
02:10:50 Sorry. Sorry, Mr. I spoke over. Did you want to finish?
02:10:53 finish? No, it's just it's just to me to put it in a nutshell. I think that well there there there is I have been told and seen documents that Sarra has
02:11:06 told and seen documents that Sarra has met Neri
02:11:08 met Neri and uh they had some sort of a handover. Sorry. Do you do Saraki the same place? Do you mean Saraki met Jenner? Jenner.
02:11:16 Jenner. Yes. And there was there was a handover. And I think that um I I think they were on a good thing. I think that they were they were deployed. They were
02:11:27 they were they were deployed. They were living double lives. They had women in in different places. Um they were off drinking, smoking drugs. They they had to somehow justify their existence. And I think um yeah, let's let's stereotype
02:11:39 I think um yeah, let's let's stereotype a workingclass Irishman uh say he's a drunken thug. Everybody will believe that. But they can't come up. I I I haven't seen any credible um credible
02:11:50 haven't seen any credible um credible proof of what they're saying. Where where is the where where where where is the smoking gun? Where where was I violent?
02:11:57 violent? Where was I arrested? Where was I taken into custody? Where was I charged? It's not here. I'd like to now turn to violence involving the undercover officers. Now,
02:12:08 involving the undercover officers. Now, you've already touched upon the incident at the the White Heart, which we'll come to in just a second, but as a general question, aside from the White Heart, did you ever witness Mark Jenner becoming involved in violence?
02:12:21 becoming involved in violence? I don't think I did. No. So, you think the Whiteart was perhaps the only
02:12:28 the only I I think that's the only time I I I'm not saying he wasn't involved in violence, but I'm saying that's the only time I've seen him. Now in relation to that in his statement Mr. Jenner refers to becoming involved
02:12:40 Mr. Jenner refers to becoming involved in public disorder when he says AFA attacked a pub called the White Heart in Hoben on the day of a loyalist combat 18 March. Now I think that's the event you referred to earlier.
02:12:51 referred to earlier. Yes. So, so there was definitely violence there and my my recollection was we were standing on the street and the a group of orange men stewarded by
02:13:05 the a group of orange men stewarded by um combat 18 started the attack people outside the public Jenner being one of them and he defended himself and I went to his aid and I would prevented myself as well. That was my recollection of
02:13:17 as well. That was my recollection of that event. So your account is that Jenner was attacked.
02:13:22 attacked. Yeah.
02:13:23 Yeah. He defended himself. Yeah. There there was there was a mob mob coming down the street hitting people as they went. Could we bring up please paragraph 115.3 of Mr. Jenner's [snorts] statement.
02:13:36 of Mr. Jenner's [snorts] statement. I'd like you to comment on on his version of the uh of the incident, please.
02:13:44 That's UCPI 35283.
02:13:49 page 58.
02:13:54 Thank you very much. Uh he says this AFA attacked a pub called the White Heart in Hoben believed to be loyalist supporters and band members.
02:14:07 and band members. The pub was badly damaged and there were a few injuries sustained by the occupants he remembers being present.
02:14:15 But he surprisingly he doesn't remember having a punchup.
02:14:23 The suggestion here is is that the afa attacked the pub. Does that accord with your recollection? I think that there there may have well been fighting outside the pub and maybe
02:14:34 been fighting outside the pub and maybe inside the pub. Uh but from certainly from my recollection it was instigated by a mob coming along the street. And your recollection is that Mr. Jenner acted in self-defense?
02:14:46 acted in self-defense? Yes.
02:14:47 Yes. Did you see him causing damage or injury?
02:14:52 No.
02:14:57 Now, we know Mr. Jenner was arrested in Dover following a demonstration by AFA against a National Front March in February 1998. Were you part of that demonstration?
02:15:11 I can't be sure but I think I did go to do over on one occasion. I'm not sure if I went on that occasion.
02:15:18 So are you able to assist us what Mr. Jenner's whether you were there when there was public disorder resulting in Mr. Jenner being arrested?
02:15:29 No, actually I would have remembered I would have remembered if he had have been arrested because me and him were quite friendly. No, I I wouldn't I don't think I was there. I almost certainly wasn't there. Um, returning to Mr. Jenner's statement,
02:15:41 Um, returning to Mr. Jenner's statement, he refers to witnessing violence on a number of occasions. So, please could we show
02:15:47 show um page 95, paragraph 203.
02:15:54 Um, I'm going to ask you about them in turn and I'd like you to know whether you were there and whether you what your recollection is. So, in relation to the castle pub in Islington where he says there was a large scale fight with the
02:16:05 there was a large scale fight with the right wing at an IRSP social. No, I was I was definitely not at the first um the first
02:16:13 first uh thing at the castle pub. Definitely not.
02:16:17 not. Um I I was sorry. What do you mean by the first thing at the castle pub? The oh sorry the first the first in the first incident which he describes um
02:16:30 and in relation to being in a pub in DA where bottles and glass Yes. Yes. There there was there was a disturbance at that point. Um there was um basically um there was a sitdown
02:16:44 um basically um there was a sitdown demonstration where um to stop uh an orange march going through a Catholic area and um Jenner was actually participating in that sit down
02:16:57 actually participating in that sit down g demonstration and was assaulted by some RU thugs. Uh they're the police. There used to be a place in the north of Ireland and he's got bruises to prove it. He he took pictures of his bruises.
02:17:10 it. He he took pictures of his bruises. Mr. Hedley, I don't want to stop you, midflow, but we are going to come to that in a little bit more detail if you don't mind keeping your powder dry. It's just it's just here in front of me. You got
02:17:18 You got No, I completely appreciate that. But it [clears throat] just looking at the incident described in a pub in Dava where bottles and glasses were thrown at suspected BNP members by a member of No, I was I thought that
02:17:31 No, I was I thought that and then at the bloody Sunday march in Holloway, Mr. Jenner says afterwards, Apha members chased a group of BNP members into a pub and beat them up. I didn't witness that.
02:17:42 I didn't witness that. In relation to Mr. Saraki, did you ever witness Mr. Saraki taking part in violence?
02:17:48 violence? No.
02:17:50 No. [clears throat] Moving to a new topic, please. I'd like to look at the area of Irish Republicanism. Okay.
02:17:59 Okay. Please, may we start by considering the descriptions of your involvement in this field within Mr. Jenner's reporting. Okay.
02:18:07 Okay. So, I'd like to take you to a number of documents before seeking your comments, if I may.
02:18:10 if I may. Okay.
02:18:11 Okay. So, the first document is MPS0245891.
02:18:16 So, that's B5. We've seen this one before where it comments on violent strong Irish accent but then overleaf page two first paragraph it describes
02:18:27 page two first paragraph it describes you as a committed Republican and then links you to IWCA and Red Action. The next document MPS02460.
02:18:44 Again, we see the PEX linking commenting upon your accent. And then in the first paragraph of the pros, it describes you
02:18:55 paragraph of the pros, it describes you as a dedicated Irish Republican. And the final document before the question is MPS024629
02:19:04 which is B14. Sir, a final nominal proformer dated the 1st of May 1996.
02:19:24 0246 229
02:19:33 Now, this is not about you. It's about somebody else. If you look on your cipher list, you can see who who that refers to. Uh if you're not not clear,
02:19:52 should be the first line on the cipher list below the text. Okay. Yeah. Um, [snorts] and in the penultimate line it says this. She's currently involved with Steve Hedley. Brackets mentioned Irish Republican
02:20:03 Brackets mentioned Irish Republican activist from the Colin Roach Center. So, are these reports from 1996 accurate when they describe you as a dedicated or committed Irish Republican?
02:20:14 committed Irish Republican? I'm certainly an Irish Republican. I didn't realize that was a crime.
02:20:20 A similar profile, although now in a little bit more detail. If we could go to Mr. S Iraqi's deployment MPS 007194.
02:20:31 Uh so that's B85 and page 7.
02:20:42 Um thank you very much. In the section on late 2004, it says,
02:20:50 it says, no, I think the next paragraph, [clears throat] Steve Hedley,
02:20:59 an activist described as his ultimate workingclass fighter by the well-known anti-establishment comedian activist Mark Thomas, Hedley has a pedigree second to none. Having started his activism on the streets of Derry in the
02:21:11 activism on the streets of Derry in the 1980s, he was well connected to the PRA provision of Shinfane and continued this association in the UK with close links to to troops out
02:21:22 with close links to to troops out movement and WTS wolf tone society. He was also an extremely active member of red action AFA and retained a close relationship with its hierarchy during the time 2000 to 2005 that CI which is
02:21:35 the time 2000 to 2005 that CI which is cranky island Mr. Mr. Saraki associated with him. Again, what do you say about the accuracy of this special branch summary?
02:21:43 summary? I [clears throat] mean, this this is just a complete waste of taxpayers money. This is absolute invention. [clears throat] I mean, the idea that first of all, I wasn't involved in any
02:21:54 first of all, I wasn't involved in any street activity in in Derry. I was a father very young in my life and moved to London for a job. I wasn't involved in any way in political activities in Derry. um wasn't well connected with a P
02:22:08 Derry. um wasn't well connected with a P professional Shinfane. Who who who were these connections? It's a bit bit later on detail, isn't it? Who were they?
02:22:20 At paragraph 1.1 of your statement, yeah,
02:22:23 yeah, you say this, as far as Irish republicanism is concerned, I was never a member of a republican organization. Since I came to England as an 18-year-old, I've been a socialist and totally reject sectarianism. I support a united
02:22:35 sectarianism. I support a united Ireland, but believe that it's counterproductive to use violence to achieve this aim. I have never been convicted or even charged with anything to do with Irish Republicanism.
02:22:46 to do with Irish Republicanism. Uh we'll we'll look at some reports in in more detail in a moment, but as a general,
02:22:51 general, can I just can I just ask right is this is this the level of intelligence that people were actually putting forward and getting paid for that they were saying that you know he's he's got a he's an
02:23:03 that you know he's he's got a he's an Irish Republican. Well, that's that's a surprise coming from Derry, isn't it? He's an Irish Republican. He's got an Irish accent. What a shocker. He likes a drink.
02:23:14 drink. Who are these I mean the way he's written this is if I'm Jerry I have Jerry Adams and Martin McInness around for tea
02:23:22 for tea I mean
02:23:23 I mean does anybody vet this stuff before it must be just flabbergasted if we could return to your witness statement for a moment when you say you consider that the use
02:23:35 when you say you consider that the use of violence is counterproductive to achieve the aim of united Ireland has that always been your position my position is that Under international law, a occupied people have the right to
02:23:47 law, a occupied people have the right to self-defense and they struggle against the occupation in any way that they deem necessary. However,
02:23:55 However, at certain points in history, I think that is completely counterproductive.
02:24:01 And was that your view in 1996? In 199 in 1996, my views were that
02:24:12 my views were that at that point I was suborting um moves towards a peace process.
02:24:20 For completeness, you say in that paragraph that you were never charged or convicted with anything to do with Irish Republicanism. Um for absolute completeness, were you ever arrested in connection with it? No.
02:24:31 No. And at paragraph 2.1, and I think we've had a flavor of this already from your answers, you say that you believe you were targeted solely because of your Irish ethnicity. Absolutely. I mean, this this is this is a an absolute
02:24:45 this this is this is a an absolute 100% case of ethnic profiling. This guy's from Derry. He's got an Irish accent. He must be in the provos. I mean, this is just ridiculous stuff.
02:24:57 mean, this is just ridiculous stuff. This is, you know, [clears throat]
02:25:03 I'd like to look at some reporting which appears to link you to certain Republican groups and contacts in London.
02:25:08 London. Go on,
02:25:10 Go on, please. Can we show MPS 40352, which is B21 in the bundle? should be an intelligence report dated the 13th of May 1997 concerning a
02:25:23 the 13th of May 1997 concerning a meeting of Republican forum on the 10th of May 1997. If we look at the content of the report on the first paragraph at page one it sets out a number of speakers from various groups including the republic
02:25:35 various groups including the republic the Irish Republican Socialist Party Republican Shinfane Brian Higgins of Republican forum. Moving down to the third paragraph on
02:25:46 Moving down to the third paragraph on the same page, it refers to a speaker arguing at the meeting that the Irish National Liberation Army had protected Catholic communities and they were prepared to kill policemen in order to do so.
02:25:59 kill policemen in order to do so. Still on that same page, at the foot of the page,
02:26:03 the page, there's a record of a speaker openly praising Pyra and I in LA.
02:26:13 in LA. And then if we could go to the top of page three, there's an account within a section of the report setting out the background of the meeting that a member of the inlet
02:26:24 the meeting that a member of the inlet delegation suggested
02:26:28 suggested that a member of uh suggested that a peeler, presumably meaning police officer, who had been shot in dead in Belfast the night before was killed by one of the speaker's security team. Was what?
02:26:39 Was what? Was killed by one of ours. Sorry, this the speaker by by
02:26:44 by by that's an account by meaning what? One of ours. I I don't understand one one of the people in the room or Well, if we look at page four, we can
02:26:55 Well, if we look at page four, we can see that you are listed as present along with Mark Cassidy. Okay.
02:27:00 Okay. Do you remember being present at this meeting?
02:27:06 I can't. law.
02:27:09 You would agree that it the report paints the picture of a meeting with of speakers talking openly uh in celebratory terms uh about shooting police and
02:27:21 police and yeah I mean I I I think that to put this into their context the Republican forum was a was not an Irish Republican forum. Okay. It was a Republican forum of people who opposed the monarchy from
02:27:34 people who opposed the monarchy from different groups from Wales, from Scotland, from Ireland and they would have different speakers and debates on tactics and some people were completely peaceful. Some u some people um said
02:27:48 peaceful. Some u some people um said that the the arms struggle was a way forward. Other people uh had different positions. So I mean, so I was in a room
02:27:59 positions. So I mean, so I was in a room allegedly with people who talked about shooting policemen. Was it me that said that?
02:28:10 Was the content of this meeting at which you you may have been present uh and it seems that Mark Cassidy, Mark Jenner was present,
02:28:20 present, typical of Republican forum meetings at that time? I don't think so at all. No, I think that the the Republican forum meetings that I went to were very much based upon
02:28:32 that I went to were very much based upon the split up of the UK state and its constituents parts England, Wales, Scotland and uh Ireland, north of Ireland and um they would have different
02:28:43 Ireland and um they would have different people along giving different speeches. You would have people from sort of groups like I suppose they're called republic now uh in Britain like camps pens to get rid of the monarchy which is a very noble name pardon the pun but um
02:28:56 a very noble name pardon the pun but um I think that's it's kind of this this is this is all just hyperbole
02:29:06 he picked something out that was said and and somehow I'm implicated it well he was in the room as well if that's what he's saying I was in the room he was in the room so I I don't get
02:29:18 I I don't get how how is any of this kind of daming evidence or or or sort of uh any sort of evidence of violence or Yeah, I'm an Irish Republic. I'm a proud Irish Republican.
02:29:30 Republican. Without giving any names, were you aware of individuals attending Republican forum events who were involved in criminality connected to the Oh, certainly not. I'll tell you who I know was involved in criminality,
02:29:42 know was involved in criminality, though. Soldier F. who went and murdered five people and admitted to murdering five people in my hometown of Derry. Parat trooper who's
02:29:53 hometown of Derry. Parat trooper who's been despite the fact that he pleaded guilty has been cleared by the British system that we're supposed to have faith in as a justice system. I can tell you that for a fact because he's admitted
02:30:04 that for a fact because he's admitted it. There's there's somebody there's somebody who you may want to pursue. Get up here someday for an inquiry. Mr. Mr. Headley, I think we'll we'll stay within the terms of reference for this inquiry. Um, if we may. Um, the
02:30:16 this inquiry. Um, if we may. Um, the next document I'd like you to look at is MPS 40536. So that's B22 [clears throat]
02:30:32 should be a meeting on the 9th of September 1997. Now, this is another Republican forum meeting. It doesn't [clears throat] appear that you were there, but the report does mention your name in
02:30:44 report does mention your name in connection with well in the context of you having been in touch with Brian Higgins with support with a supportive membership inquiry. On
02:30:55 with a supportive membership inquiry. On the fifth par the fifth paragraph about halfway down the page, the report says this. The forum secretary, Brian Higgins, has received quite a few
02:31:06 Higgins, has received quite a few letters of support and membership inquiries, particularly since the announcement of the Shinfane ceasefire. One such person is Steve Hedley, one-time reluctant Shinfane supporter and consistent supporter of the IRA.
02:31:18 and consistent supporter of the IRA. He's become increasingly disaffected by the peace process and is now openly voicing support for the CAC and political stand that RSF is taking against Shinfane. Um, Did you write to
02:31:31 against Shinfane. Um, Did you write to Brian Higgins Republican Forum? I've I've known Brian Higgins for years through the building workers group which Jenner was the chair of the chair of the
02:31:42 Jenner was the chair of the chair of the building workers group. Why would I be writing to Brian Higgins at the Republican forum when I knew him? Um Jenner knew Brian Higgins more than me. He went on his picket lines.
02:31:54 me. He went on his picket lines. This is this isn't somebody that's just appeared as a somebody we don't know. We've got it right there. Now, you speak to this document in your witness statement at paragraph 2.2, and
02:32:05 witness statement at paragraph 2.2, and you say there is no proof I was a supporter of the IRA. I was never a member of Shinfane or the IRA. No. Now, noting that you're very clear in your statement that you weren't a member of either Shinfeane or the IRA. Were you
02:32:16 of either Shinfeane or the IRA. Were you a reluctant supporter of Shinfane? As the report suggests,
02:32:23 I would describe my politics as 100% socialist. As a socialist, I do understand that the national liberation struggle and any people, unoccupied people have got the
02:32:35 people, unoccupied people have got the right to carry out a national liberation struggle and struggle against an occupation by whatever means they seem necessary and that's the right under international law.
02:32:46 international law. I was not a member of the provisional IRA and I was not a member of Shinfane. And again note this for completeness really noting you say in your statement that there's no proof you supported the
02:32:57 that there's no proof you supported the IRA were you were supported the IRA I reiterate what I said I support people legitimate right of occupied people to struggle against their occupier in
02:33:08 struggle against their occupier in whatever way they had seen fit. Now jumping forward in time a few years to April 2003. Could we show please MPS 0018340
02:33:20 0018340 B56.
02:33:33 This is a report uh by Carlo Saraki dated the 3rd of April 2003 and it states Steve Hedley of No Platform has recently made it known to some activists
02:33:45 recently made it known to some activists who are close to him within NP that he is aware of an authentic code word that can be given to the authorities when making bomb threats. Headedley mentioned the word. This was mentioned to two
02:33:56 the word. This was mentioned to two other associates within MP. Hedley stated that he personally had never used the password but had been made aware of it by an Irish Republican associate NFD
02:34:07 it by an Irish Republican associate NFD some years ago. This may be of interest as it possibly indicates confirms his previous sympathies. He does not usually speak about his Republican connections or sympathies.
02:34:19 sympathies. Now first in your statement at paragraph 2.5 you say this is pure invention and you were never involved in such activities.
02:34:28 to square it away. Were you aware of such code word? No, absolutely not. Absolutely.
02:45:22 try and keep those names which are closed for reasons of privacy or other reasons.
02:45:28 reasons. Okay. So
02:45:29 Okay. So off the transcript. So this isn't being recorded as such. Is that what's but it'll be removed from the transcript. Right. Um and uh
02:45:38 Um and uh it will not be broadcast. Okay. Um and and nobody in the room must say anything about what you said outside of this room. Okay, gotcha. But I can I can use I can use the names in
02:45:50 I can I can use I can use the names in this room. Um you
02:45:53 Um you you must not use the particular name that was um uh that you did use um because there is an order in Oh, sorry. I've just
02:46:04 Oh, sorry. I've just Everybody makes these mistakes. Don't worry.
02:46:07 worry. I do I do I do apologize, Alison.
02:46:16 Um, a further trip to Darian Belfast was planned the following year in August 1996.
02:46:23 1996. If we could bring up MPS 0246136
02:46:33 and if we could go to I said that's B12 in your bundle. Look at the first paragraph. describes a further visit to Derry in Belfast and suggests that you, Mark Metaf, and another person were making the arrangements.
02:46:46 arrangements. Was uh a trip planned as this report suggests?
02:46:56 Do do you recall anything? Yeah, look, um the Republican contacts were staying with family members. Okay.
02:47:07 with family members. Okay. Um, there was no members of Shinfane, the IRA, the INLA, none. There was no none of that involved. We were staying with family members. I don't know. He just seems desperate to kind of justify
02:47:19 just seems desperate to kind of justify his own existence. Um, so so I take it that do I do? I take it that there was a further trip planned in 96.
02:47:29 in 96. I can't I can't actually recall, but I I can't say that there wasn't. But you know this this thing that we're going to look for Republican contacts for accommodation that's just
02:47:40 accommodation that's just well I just look at one more point on this. Then if you look at the final paragraph there's a reference to Kevin McQuillin of the IRSP offering to arrange accommodation for the delegation with IRSP supporters but only in in
02:47:51 with IRSP supporters but only in in exchange for Republican Shinfe inland dominated agenda. Does that ring any bells?
02:47:56 bells? No.
02:47:58 No. I'm going to move now to um blacklisting and reporting on trade union activity. Uh within the documents disclosed to you, there's a body of reporting from an officer known as HN60, uh who cover name
02:48:11 officer known as HN60, uh who cover name was Dave Evans. That reporting refers to a dispute where you were suspended following an allegation of criminal damage on a picket line at Houston. Do you recall that the an allegation that was subsequently
02:48:22 the an allegation that was subsequently cleared of MPS 30183, please? That's B25. This is a report dated the 20th of July
02:48:33 This is a report dated the 20th of July 1998. And the second paragraph refers to your suspension and the criminal damage allegation. Yeah.
02:48:40 Yeah. Before highlighting the risk of consequential industrial action. Yeah.
02:48:45 Yeah. If we can move to MPS30's 87.
02:48:51 87. It's B26. Sir, there's a further report a day later on the 21st of July 98. which includes a comment on likelihood
02:49:03 which includes a comment on likelihood of industrial action if you were sacked.
02:49:08 Yes. Um as a as a member of the trade union, I think that's pretty straightforward. When when people are sacked, they often ballot for industrial action.
02:49:15 action. And then in NPS 301239, sir, that's B27. We have a draft report which is dated the 6th of August 1998.
02:49:26 which is dated the 6th of August 1998. And the third paragraph refers to your suspension. It refers to unofficial strikes by RMT members taking place in support of you and it comments upon bad feeling between RMT members and the union leadership.
02:49:39 RMT members and the union leadership. In your [clears throat] statement, you address these reports at paragraph 2.3. We don't need to go to it, but I'll read it out. Whilst on a picket line, I was suspended for alleg allegedly breaking a wing mirror on a van, but was
02:49:51 wing mirror on a van, but was subsequently in the same year cleared of the allegation and no court case was brought against me. Apart from the allegation of criminal damage, which you've explained, was this just an ordin ordinary industrial
02:50:02 just an ordin ordinary industrial relations and union matters? Yeah. Uh, basically a van was driven at speed at the picket line and it turned out it wasn't me at all. It was somebody else. And we we actually somebody was
02:50:14 else. And we we actually somebody was taking pictures and we could produce photographic evidence that it wasn't me. So it the whole thing was basically the van clipped somebody on the way back on the way past and they said, "Well, oh, he's broke the wing mirror, you know,
02:50:27 he's broke the wing mirror, you know, but it they they they accept that it wasn't me." And what these reports talk about are your union colleagues coming out in support of you? Yes.
02:50:39 Yes. Did those unofficial strikes in support of you take place?
02:50:48 I think they did. Yeah. And was there any violence or public disorder?
02:50:52 disorder? No.
02:50:53 No. Do you believe that being associated with unofficial pickets or strikes to support your position would have any effect on your ability to obtain work? No,
02:51:04 obtain work? No, I don't think so. I think it's um unless unless we've reverted back to slavery and gone past feudalism, gone back to slavery, I think people should have the right to withdraw their labor
02:51:15 have the right to withdraw their labor and try to persuade other people peacefully not to cross a picket line. Do do you feel that that information recorded in uh police reports might affect your ability to obtain work?
02:51:29 Well, I think it would. Yeah. because they're they're build they've gone out of their way to build a completely false picture of me as some sort of violent thug. Uh completely contradictory of
02:51:41 thug. Uh completely contradictory of course because then they say I don't want violence. I want to go off and start a political project. But they they they've gone out of their way to stereotype me as an Irish person and I believe that this has has resulted not
02:51:53 believe that this has has resulted not just at the time but afterwards currently I'm out of work. I've been blacklisted. I know I've been blacklisted. I've been told I'm on some sort of domestic terrorism list, which I believe this amounts to in these files,
02:52:04 believe this amounts to in these files, these special branch files. So, I I think that this this uh malicious and um useless uh [snorts] deployment of people
02:52:15 useless uh [snorts] deployment of people uh long term where they behaved appallingly. Um we had people who abused women, mentoring people who abused women and looking up to people who abused women. Uh this is the this is the kind
02:52:26 women. Uh this is the this is the kind of system that it's produced. They could they could produce nothing. They could they they hadn't brought charges against any one of us. But to this day, I cannot
02:52:37 any one of us. But to this day, I cannot get a job. I cannot get a job. I've I've got a little bit of pension coming in. I know you're supposed to say at this time, this point, you don't look old enough, right? But I've got a little bit of pension coming in, but I can't get
02:52:49 of pension coming in, but I can't get any jobs. And I put it down to this. I put it down to this malicious actions of these people who fold women into relationships.
02:53:01 Looking at another document to do with trade union activity. Could we show you please MPS30719? So that's B40 and it's a report dated the 29th of
02:53:12 and it's a report dated the 29th of January 2002. And this one is understood to be by uh Carlo Saraki. And if we go over leaf,
02:53:25 it reports that you were arranging a trip to Greece to attend a conference for trades unionists from all over Europe. It also highlights that you uh Dave Smith, [snorts] Jay Batty,
02:53:37 Dave Smith, [snorts] Jay Batty, and Foia and Dave and Dan Gilman who's referred to as Dave Gilman. I presume Dan Gilman uh were going on the
02:53:48 presume Dan Gilman uh were going on the trip and identifies each of you as union members.
02:53:52 members. And if we look in the source comment, we can see a porative comment about you. It says uh that
02:54:03 you. It says uh that you are keen to show he's a class struggle organizer and thinker and not just a thug and Stalinist tanky. And a later document which we don't need to go to appears to confirm that you do
02:54:14 to go to appears to confirm that you do travel to Athens with Frank Smith and Jay Batty. Is that right? Yeah, I'm guilty of going on holiday. Hands up. Mayor Copa. So I think you may you may have jumped ahead of me in my question, but what was
02:54:26 ahead of me in my question, but what was the purpose of the trip to Greece? Well, I think he explains it. It was a uh trade union conference and that took place. Yeah, I think. Yeah, as far as I remember.
02:54:34 remember. Did you consider it was a good opportunity to network with other anti-fascists throughout Europe? I thought it was a good it was a good uh opportunity to network with other trade unionists. That's why it was a trade union conference.
02:54:47 union conference. Did you know Carlos Saraki well by the end of January 2002?
02:54:54 I would have probably known him fairly well. Yeah, I would have thought that. Well, obviously I didn't, but I thought it would have been in a circle of mates. It wouldn't have been particularly close, but it would have been Yeah. How
02:55:05 close, but it would have been Yeah. How do you feel about the description of you as a potentially being a thug and a Stalinist tanky? I don't think he probably understands what that means. Um it's it's just a bit
02:55:16 what that means. Um it's it's just a bit of phrasiology picked up. I don't think he understands what a tanky is. Could we look now um at another um event uh MPS 203716
02:55:36 uh B75. Now this is [snorts] a composite report of Carlos Iraqi's reporting. I believe the date is 5th of October 2004. And on page two, halfway down the page,
02:55:50 page two, halfway down the page, there's a section headed Steve Hedley, workplace woes. And if we look at that now,
02:55:56 now, Steve Hedley has just become embroiled in another workplace dispute. This has come about following his being sacked and blacklisted after he was in charge of a shift of railway maintenance workers where a piece of equipment worth
02:56:07 workers where a piece of equipment worth £800 was stolen. Pedley's enlisted the help of his comrades at the RMT Union to assist him in his fight and there's good likelihood that it could result in industrial action by the union.
02:56:19 industrial action by the union. Now that same dispute is covered in another composite report MPS 0037141
02:56:28 and that's B76.
02:56:38 this
02:56:43 um at the foot of the first page and overly to page two. This is a another composite report believed to be dated 11th of October 2004
02:56:53 [clears throat] and that again refers to your sacking and blacklisting into a flying picket by your supporters causing a large traffic buildup.
02:57:03 buildup. Did this picket pose any risk of violence?
02:57:06 violence? No. Did it pose any risk of public disorder?
02:57:09 disorder? No.
02:57:11 No. Did anything other than a large traffic buildup transpire at all? Now, this was a dispute at the Channel Tunnel Rail Link site and I understand from your opening submissions in trench
02:57:22 from your opening submissions in trench one of this inquiry that Mr. Saraki attended a picket at that location. He did. And um he he actually he used his van um
02:57:33 he used his van um to help the backlog of traffic. He parked his vats somewhere people couldn't get past through. So his van obstructed the traffic. Yeah. Yeah. And that was in relation to this dispute
02:57:44 And that was in relation to this dispute that we we've seen on screen.
02:57:48 So he was one of the small band of supporters that is described in your Yeah.
02:57:53 Yeah. What do other than the van tactic? What else do you recall about him on that day supporting your picket? [cough]
02:58:03 [cough] Nothing really. it don't um I can't I can't remember anything of it and it he he just turned up and supported it. Yeah. To your recollection, was Mr. Saraki
02:58:15 To your recollection, was Mr. Saraki involved with trade unions or other industrial disputes.
02:58:21 Um [sighs]
02:58:23 he was a member of the Socialist Party. So I think he would have been um he it must have been he must have been but I not to my knowledge.
02:58:36 Now you've spoken today and in your statement of paragraph 5.1 of um becoming aware of undercover officers in connection with blacklisting and obviously we've seen in the reporting today and you've commented that you were
02:58:48 today and you've commented that you were blacklisted. Is there anything else you would like to say about the way in which you were personally affected by blacklisting? Yeah, I was pretty badly affected. Um,
02:58:59 Yeah, I was pretty badly affected. Um, and it's kind of a little bit triggering. So,
02:59:05 um, I think it led the the break up of my marriage. I think it led the strain relationships with me and my children because I didn't have any money.
02:59:17 money. I certainly contributed to all that. Um, And it was it had a psychological effect because what would happen at at that time I was a very very skilled engineer probably
02:59:29 probably 300 of us in the country and I would be getting uh phone calls and starts for work come Monday morning. Monday morning would come I would get a a call ridiculously early or when I turned up
02:59:40 ridiculously early or when I turned up on the side say the job's gone job's filled and I thought it was going bad. I honestly thought something's going wrong here. And um and this went on for months and months.
02:59:53 and this went on for months and months. About 6 months was the longest period I think I went without and I nearly lost my house. um the house nearly went um living on credit cards
03:00:05 um living on credit cards and just because these people decided because I was Irish and had an Irish accent and came from the Bside that I was somehow involved with things that I'd never been involved with, you know.
03:00:18 I'd never been involved with, you know. And
03:00:20 And I have to say this though, um if you look at this and it's taken a long time, right? And I saw the man's wife this morning.
03:00:29 morning. [clears throat] And much as I dislike the two individuals that spied on me and everybody else, this this is a pattern of behavior. This isn't bad eggs. This isn't bad apples. This is a pattern of behavior. This whole SDS is an absolute
03:00:42 behavior. This whole SDS is an absolute disgrace. Um they had meant they they had people who had behaved appallingly with women and in other respects mentoring other people. So what what sort of uh what sort of outcome did they
03:00:54 sort of uh what sort of outcome did they expect? There seems to be no oversight. If if somebody came to you as a manager or as a solicitor with this as evidence for a case, you would throw it out. You would go, "What the hell is this? What are you talking about?" So it was a
03:01:07 are you talking about?" So it was a complete waste of money. Um these people were running around smoking drugs. Um they they were off the lease. They did what they wanted and they caused chaos
03:01:18 what they wanted and they caused chaos not just in our lives, the people that they spied on, but in the lives of the people uh that they loved and who loved them. And I think that is like massive, massive damage. And I think whoever is
03:01:31 massive damage. And I think whoever is in charge of this special demonstration squad, special branch or whatever they're calling themselves now need to be held to account. And if there's politicians above that, they need to be held to account as well.
03:01:42 held to account as well. Thank you, Mr. Headley. In relation to the involvement of the undercover officers, is it your view that information used in blacklisting came from SDS undercover
03:01:53 blacklisting came from SDS undercover officers?
03:01:54 officers? 100%.
03:01:55 100%. Why do you say that? It's in it's in my blacklisting file. We were three of us were picked up on a a demonstration at the Senate Taff
03:02:07 at the Senate Taff and um that information appeared uh at a special br uh was fed through special branch to um the employers. So
03:02:20 special branch to um the employers. So this turned up in a black western file.
03:02:27 And you think do you think that was through the consulting association? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure if it was called the consulting association at the time because it did change names, but it was
03:02:38 because it did change names, but it was one of those one of those uh sort of organizations that was the consultative association or whatever it was and your
03:02:47 and your economic economic league or the I can't remember which one it was but it was definitely that that organization they just changed names and your view is that the report on the senate came from SDS. Yeah.
03:03:03 Um, could I ask you please a few questions around the deployment of Carlos Sarrai? Sir, I I'm conscious of time, but I hope we should not be too much beyond five
03:03:17 firebombing. Um, on paragraph 2.8 eight of your statement is page six. You say um the presence of the undercover
03:03:28 um the presence of the undercover officers to disrupt and provoke insider group is very disappointing. Ner so Mr. Saraki once advocated petrol bombing charity shop claiming it belonged to an Italian fascist. He was
03:03:41 belonged to an Italian fascist. He was told don't be stupid by me amongst others.
03:03:45 others. Now Mr. Iraqi in his evidence suggests that the plan was not his but Dan Gilman's. Do we take it from your statement that you disagree? Look, Dan Dan nearly went off his head
03:03:56 Look, Dan Dan nearly went off his head when I heard it. Dan Dan just what are you talking about? I mean, we we just put it down to Carlo being pissed at the time having a drink. What's What's your recollection of that incident? There's a suggestion it was
03:04:08 incident? There's a suggestion it was made at a New Year's Eve party. It was it was at a New Year's Eve party. Everybody had a fair bit to drink. And we just thought it's it's not him, right? It's not him. This is not his character. It's totally out of character
03:04:19 character. It's totally out of character for him. And I think this is just my my take on it. It they'd spent years and they'd got absolutely nothing because we weren't doing anything. And
03:04:30 weren't doing anything. And [clears throat] I think that they were then at the point as let's let's try to make this sort of honey trap this ridiculous thing. um that we found out
03:04:41 ridiculous thing. um that we found out the the shop he was talking about wasn't owned by fascists at all. Okay. And he he was saying because he was Italian he he was a Walter Marie had links with the red brigades and Italy and all this kind
03:04:53 red brigades and Italy and all this kind of thing and thought that impressed people that really didn't. But it was like
03:04:58 like he was he was suggesting that we go and petrol bomb a shop and that this shop was in a residential area. Okay. So you could have had collateral damage from the shop on the other premises and it could have endangered people's lives. So
03:05:10 could have endangered people's lives. So this this is a very very like this is where where it goes. Now I'm asking you to think back 20 years and it's very difficult to recall a conversation for that time. But what
03:05:21 a conversation for that time. But what do do you have a recollection of what was said specifically by Mr. Saraki? Can you tell us please? He said there's a shop he knows that's run by
03:05:32 there's a shop he knows that's run by Italian fascists and um we should go and do something about it and what like and he said well we should go we should go we should go and fire bomb it should go and petrol bomb it so
03:05:44 bomb it should go and petrol bomb it so it was just like it was as blatant as that it wasn't like you know I'll put the idea out there and see who picks up on it he was motivating this potential arson attack
03:05:55 arson attack and did you go to the No, that no [laughter] one no one went near the shop, right? We just people people investigated it and went weren't going to do anything like
03:06:06 went weren't going to do anything like that anyway. But it was like people investigated and went this is this is just rubbish. He's just made this entire thing up.
03:06:13 thing up. Uh Mr. Batty and Mr. Gilman in their evidence suggest that they and Mr. Saraki returned to the charity shop a few days later. Uh were you part of
03:06:24 few days later. Uh were you part of that?
03:06:24 that? I wasn't there. No. Before leaving that evening when the firebomb was discussed, uh Mr. Batty suggests in his witness statement
03:06:35 Batty suggests in his witness statement that this was the same night that Carlos Saraki and Donna McClean announced their engagement. Do you recall uh the engagement of Miss McClean and Mr. Saraki being announced that night?
03:06:50 I remember their engagement being announced, but I I can't say if it was on the same night. It's a long time ago, right? I I I I remember that. I'm sorry if it offends any of the
03:07:01 I'm sorry if it offends any of the female people in the room, right? But it's not a big thing to me, right? What big thing to me was somebody suggesting going and firebombing a shop. That was
03:07:13 going and firebombing a shop. That was to me that was outrageous and that was what stuck in my memory. But I do remember they got engaged. Don't know if it was announced that night.
03:07:20 night. Sorry. You do remember an engagement. Yes.
03:07:24 Yes. Um, house share. I'd like to show you two documents relating to interviews that Mr. Saraki had with Operation Hearn. First of all, MPS 0738088,
03:07:43 page 19, please. Uh, so this is B89 of your bundle. [clears throat] You see there's a section headed Mark Jenner
03:07:57 and it's [snorts] says [clears throat] MJ said speak to SH he won't let you get a beating
03:08:04 a beating and then it says moved in with SH for 3 to four months brackets moving around pausing there that appears to be a reference to the time that Mr. Saraki
03:08:15 reference to the time that Mr. Saraki lived with you but for clarity did you ever live with Mr. Jenner? Did he ever spend time at your house? No.
03:08:25 The next paragraph down says this. MJ was mentioned Mark Jenner I think but um never mentioned MJ having a woman every opportunity to be told if he had a
03:08:37 opportunity to be told if he had a woman. And if you could turn please to page 22.
03:08:52 It says at the very top, knew Headley intimately told other salacious stuff. He knew MJ. He never said anything about him.
03:09:01 him. If we could turn now, please to MPS072192.
03:09:07 So that's B90 of the bundle, page one of that document. [clears throat]
03:09:27 This is another This is a typed version of an interview between Carnis Iraqi dated the 12th to the 14th of August 2013. Page 8. Document says this.
03:09:48 Steve Hedley was an activist from the East London AFA. He was a very violent man and originally from Derry. He is a deputy within the RMT. Carlo stayed with Steve Hedley for
03:10:00 RMT. Carlo stayed with Steve Hedley for a couple of months. He was a recovering alcoholic. He and Carlo would speak about many things at length and in detail. During some of their talks, Steve Hedley mentioned knowing Mark Jenner, but never once mentioned that
03:10:11 Jenner, but never once mentioned that Mark had been having a sexual relationship with an activist, which Carly says he considered unusual if there had been a relationship that was well known about.
03:10:22 well known about. So, following the end of his relationship with Donna McClean, Carlos Saraki stayed at your home. Is that right? Carlos Sarrai pretend that he was homeless and um I offered for him to
03:10:34 homeless and um I offered for him to stay, you know, violent drunk that I was with an Irish accent and you know uh obviously yeah I brought him in uh off the streets as I thought. And um by the
03:10:47 the streets as I thought. And um by the way I spelled my name wrong. That's how accurate the reporting is. There's no A in Headley. So um yeah. And how long did he stay with you? He was supposed to be there a couple of
03:10:58 He was supposed to be there a couple of months, but in reality, he only kind of well, it's obvious now what he was doing, coming and going, and said he was working away. Um, and I mean, it was common knowledge that um, Jenner was
03:11:11 common knowledge that um, Jenner was having relationships. I mean, we we didn't know they were undercover cops at this point. So, why would you why would you go, "Oh, somebody's having a relationship with a woman that that I don't know that he knew."
03:11:23 don't know that he knew." I mean, why would you mention it? Um,
03:11:28 do [clears throat] you ever recall discussing Jenna having relationships with Mr. Saraki?
03:11:37 Saraki? I appreciate you saying that's common place.
03:11:39 place. I don't I don't think why why would I I didn't even know that he knew him. I would It's not somebody that I knew he was associated with at all. So, the suggestion in the document we've
03:11:51 So, the suggestion in the document we've looked at is that Mr. Saraki recalls there being a discussion that you mentioning Mr. Jenna at some point, but you don't have any recollection of that
03:12:03 you don't have any recollection of that before before all this spy stuff came out. The spy cop stuff came out and the the abuse of women, what what business of mine would have been if somebody had a relationship with somebody or not?
03:12:15 a relationship with somebody or not? It's not nothing to do with me. When he stayed with you at your address, was anyone else living there? My daughter. Um, yeah.
03:12:26 My daughter. Um, yeah. And did Mr. Saraki have contact with your daughter? He had contact with my daughter and he had contact with my other children who came around at weekends. Did he pay you any rent?
03:12:37 Did he pay you any rent? No.
03:12:39 No. Would you have allowed him to stay in your home had you known he was a police officer?
03:12:47 Obviously not. No. Would you have allowed him to enter your home at all? No.
03:12:55 So [clears throat] last topic which I hope I can do quickly um personal details Mr. uh Mr. Headley many of the reports which have been provided to you
03:13:06 reports which have been provided to you contain your personal contact details between 30th of January 96 and the 22nd of September 97. Mr. Jenner produces
03:13:17 of September 97. Mr. Jenner produces five reports containing your current home addresses and telephone numbers. Between the 10th of April 2001 and 26th of April 2004, Mr. Saraki provided produced a further
03:13:30 Mr. Saraki provided produced a further 12 reports containing your home address, telephone number or email address. Uh there are also reports for example MPS30659.
03:13:39 MPS30659. We don't need to go to it but sir that's B33
03:13:42 B33 uh containing details of your vehicle. [clears throat] What do you say about the frequency of the reporting and the seemingly continuous SDS updates about your personal information, in particular,
03:13:53 personal information, in particular, your addresses and telephone numbers and email addresses? Well, I mean, I'd like to congratulate them. They got something right. They they got my name and address and uh well, actually, the name's misspelled, but they got the address correct and um
03:14:05 but they got the address correct and um they got my telephone numbers right and I just I just think it's a complete and utter waste of time. I mean, what are they doing? And if we could bring up please NPS001006.
03:14:17 I can't see anything on my screen. No, it'll come up shortly Mr. Medley. NPS 001 00061. So that's B52. And at page one at the foot of the page
03:14:28 And at page one at the foot of the page here's a draft report about your personal relationship. Then in the final sentence of the page it says this. What is likely is that more young Headedley's will arrive in this world
03:14:40 Headedley's will arrive in this world given his good Catholic propensity for fathering children. Yeah.
03:14:44 Yeah. How do you feel about the personal nature of this reporting? It's it's just indicative, isn't it? We have a culture of racism, of sexism, um
03:14:55 have a culture of racism, of sexism, um in in the police um you know, and we have it's obviously anti-atholicism and they think it's funny that Catholics have children, you know. Um obviously I'm a Catholic. I'm I've got an Irish
03:15:07 I'm a Catholic. I'm I've got an Irish accent. I'm from the B side and I'm obviously violent and drunken and just perpetuating this stereotype. Uh I think it's disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful. I mean, if this if this was
03:15:18 disgraceful. I mean, if this if this was a reference to me being black or Asian or or my sexuality, people would be jumping up and down, wouldn't they? But here I am, because I'm a Catholic, I'm being uh I'm being ridiculed and
03:15:31 being uh I'm being ridiculed and you know,
03:15:35 Mr. Hy, thank you. I have only one more question um before we we reconsider the rule 10 process and that is is this. Is there anything else that you would like this inquiry to understand about your
03:15:46 this inquiry to understand about your experience of undercover policing and the impact it's had on you? Yeah. Um, so is this like any other things that I want to say part? Okay. So, I'm I'm just going to going to start
03:15:58 So, I'm I'm just going to going to start off by saying I haven't come here today expecting justice. Um, I don't think there is British justice for Irish people. I think that's been shown by the fact that British
03:16:09 been shown by the fact that British soldiers can murder civilians in my hometown of Derry and Bali Murphy with the collusion of loyalist security uh loyalist terrorists all over the north of Ireland and indeed in the south with
03:16:21 of Ireland and indeed in the south with impunity.
03:16:23 impunity. Uh the clearing of soldier ref I think um put the icing on the cake. He admitted to killing uh five people, four of them Roman Catholics and one of them Protestants. So, I think I'm not here seeking any
03:16:36 So, I think I'm not here seeking any justice. I'm not that naive. I'm just here to put my story on the record. And I think what we've had here is um this creeping authoritarianism
03:16:47 this creeping authoritarianism in our society started there. If people are
03:16:52 are under suspicion for going on picket lines and and going on demonstrations and going off to Greeks on holiday and attending trade union conferences and this is all legitimate and you're classified as a terrorist, a domestic
03:17:04 classified as a terrorist, a domestic terrorist because of this. This is where we are today in this country. And I think we're we're at the point now where um this creeping authoritarianism has led to people who are in the
03:17:18 has led to people who are in the tradition of the suffragettes uh direct action movements, nonviolent direct action movements being in this country now described as terrorists and I think it's when this this is I'm
03:17:31 and I think it's when this this is I'm not saying this lightly. I think we are becoming more and more authoritarian state, more and more a state where the police are doing exactly what they want. And I think that the the inability to
03:17:42 And I think that the the inability to hold these people in check and that the they actually know boasting about getting awards in some cases uh boasting about getting awards for going and treating women the way they did is is an
03:17:53 treating women the way they did is is an absolute disgrace. It's a shame, an absolute shame on the uh British justice system or British injustice system. And you know, we have uh we have people on
03:18:04 you know, we have uh we have people on hunger strike at the minute, you know, uh because they've been criminalized. They've been criminalized by this creeping authoritarianism. We've got people, seven young people now. Um, and I'm
03:18:16 seven young people now. Um, and I'm going to read out their names. Cusen Suran, Abu Gibb, Hebra Morz, John Link, Tueta Hawka, Cameron Akmed, Lu Chiara,
03:18:30 Tueta Hawka, Cameron Akmed, Lu Chiara, Muhammad Um, these people are all on hunger strike and they're they're approaching 40 days rapidly, which is the point of no return. and they're on hunger strike
03:18:41 return. and they're on hunger strike because no one has had the uh no one has had the gumption to control this SDS and this creeping authoritarianism and the politicians behind it. And if those people die, the blood will be on the
03:18:53 people die, the blood will be on the hands of the politicians and the police chiefs that let this happen because
03:19:01 because we I've I've never seen such a ridiculous I've I've represented people at all levels. I've set in ministers uh with government ministers negotiating paid deals and I've seen evidence in all
03:19:12 paid deals and I've seen evidence in all sorts of cases against people. This here will be thrown out of a a local disciplinary at an at an area level. Uh at a local a local rep would get this rubbish thrown out, this uncooperated
03:19:24 rubbish thrown out, this uncooperated rubbish, and to destroy people's lives with it is uh you know beyond belief. So,
03:19:31 So, I'm going to I'm going to end up on this and
03:19:35 and it's a uh if I can find it, it's a poem from a great Palestinian activist. And he says, "All your armies, all your
03:19:47 And he says, "All your armies, all your fighters, all your tanks, and all your soldiers against the boy holding a stone, standing there all alone. In his eyes, I see the sun, and in his smile, I
03:19:58 eyes, I see the sun, and in his smile, I see the moon. And I wonder, I only wonder who is weak and who is strong, who is right and who is wrong. And I wish I only wish that the truth had a
03:20:09 wish I only wish that the truth had a tongue.
03:20:12 Thank you, Mr. Eddie. So, that concludes my questioning. Um, if we could have I don't understand this to be any re-examination, but if we could have a short break to consider any rule [clears throat] tests. Of course.
03:20:25 May I before we do that ask you one question about blacklisting please or to raise the topic of blacklisting. The um demonstration at the Senate half of which you speak which was reported on by
03:20:36 which you speak which was reported on by SDS officers was I think in November 1992.
03:20:40 1992. Could have been. Could it be? Yeah.
03:20:44 Yeah. Um if uh we could put up on the screen please um MPS O00133
03:20:58 and turn to the second page.
03:21:03 This is um a report by
03:21:08 by uh
03:21:09 uh HN15 Jenna 22nd of January 1997. And if you look over the page, your name appears about a third of the way down and you're in as
03:21:20 third of the way down and you're in as mentions, which means up to that stage, whoever was looking up the names on this to to complete this report uh found that you or did not find that you had any
03:21:32 you or did not find that you had any reference in the special branch registry.
03:21:37 registry. Have you been following the evidence about that up to now? Sir, I'm not with you, sir. Could you just say that again? [clears throat] You were aware that there was a special
03:21:48 You were aware that there was a special branch registry, right?
03:21:50 right? So, capital R, capital F, and then three numbers,
03:21:54 numbers, right?
03:21:55 right? Um,
03:21:58 Um, what
03:22:00 what the entry mentions means is that you have been mentioned in SDS reporting and possibly other reporting, right?
03:22:10 right? but have not yet got a registry file [clears throat] number. Okay. So, so the the the file that I was referring to was a blacklisting file which is 17 pages long.
03:22:21 which is 17 pages long. Yeah.
03:22:21 Yeah. 17 pages.
03:22:24 17 pages. Forgive me. I I appreciate we're talking about different okay blacklisting different files. But what I'm trying to get at is when, if at all, SDS reporting on you got into a
03:22:38 SDS reporting on you got into a blacklisting file kept by the economic lead or the consulting association. Um, I'm going to ask you in a moment whether you can help me on that, but I want to show you some documents before we get
03:22:50 show you some documents before we get this is the first one. This is one one of a run of documents in which your name is mentioned and you are put in as mentions. So, whoever's was drafting the SDS report by uh HN15
03:23:04 SDS report by uh HN15 um didn't have a registry file number for you. If we then look please at the next document which is MPS O00266.
03:23:25 first page you see your name there with a registry file number 3359619
03:23:34 and if you look at the date it's March 1997
03:23:38 1997 okay
03:23:38 okay so the previous one we looked at was January 1997 is now March 1997 so by the time that this report has been prepared whoever is looking up the references
03:23:49 whoever is looking up the references has found you have got a reference number and it was created in 1996 that's what what the 96 in the middle means. Okay.
03:23:58 Okay. So, so I was led to believe and you correct me sir if I'm wrong that there was a red desk where these papers would be cuz the SDS is part of special branch or was part of special branch. It's just
03:24:10 or was part of special branch. It's just been rebranded and then they somebody would from another department of special branch would take the information that they've gone and go and meet the employers and give them that information.
03:24:21 information. We we've you've probably heard the evidence that I have about that. Yeah. Um,
03:24:30 we I think know that that occurred um before your registry file is created. Okay.
03:24:37 Okay. It doesn't mean it's impossible that the information got over, but um it um may perhaps make it less likely than if it had been on the registry file of special branch. Yeah, I
03:24:49 registry file of special branch. Yeah, I mean I have to say the that that may well be your assertion, sir, but the the sort of um quality of the reports and quality of the filing um is shocking. Um
03:25:04 it's absolutely shocking. I I'm not making an assertion. I'm trying trying to get to the truth of things. Okay. And if you're able to tell me having seen your blacklisting file when you remember the first date on it
03:25:16 you remember the first date on it appears
03:25:17 appears the
03:25:18 the Ah,
03:25:21 Ah, I think the first date was around the time of
03:25:25 time of um me getting sacked from Houston, the the allegation uh being made at Houston. Yeah, I think that was it.
03:25:36 that was it. That's what we've already looked at today. Yes, understood. Thank you. That's given me something to think about and I will um at least be able to establish an
03:25:47 at least be able to establish an approximate date when the blacklisting file that you've seen contains the first entry.
03:25:58 Thank you. Steph 5 minutes for Of course. Yes. We we've got to go through a process now to see whether there are any further questions which council inquiry will put to. Of course. Yes, absolutely.
03:26:11 Of course. Yes, absolutely. Take your time. [snorts]
03:39:39 Yes, sir. There are no rule 10 questions. Uh, Mr. Khan would like to address you very briefly if I Yes.
03:39:45 Yes. It took a bit of time trying to track down a particular document. difficulty is that that document isn't easily um
03:39:54 um displayed so that it would assist the witness and you in relation to the matter that you raised on blacklist. So all I wanted to say is that we will seek to obtain that material and provide
03:40:05 seek to obtain that material and provide it to you so it might assist you in relation to the timing um position that you were speaking to Mr. Head. That would be very helpful. Um, I had in mind the evidence that we heard from uh
03:40:18 mind the evidence that we heard from uh Peter Francis about the occasion when uh Lord Mccalpine uh had according to him lunch with his then
03:40:29 had according to him lunch with his then sergeant.
03:40:30 sergeant. Yes. Um we didn't want to detain you any longer given the time and this witness. It was only through this witness that we were able to get that material. But um will you allow us to do that in due course?
03:40:40 course? Certainly. I I' I'd welcome you. I would welcome it if you would do that. There's no further examination on my Thank you. May I say thank you to everybody who has come to give evidence to assist me in my
03:40:53 come to give evidence to assist me in my as you discovered not at all straightforward. You're quite right. No, you're quite right. I I and thank you for reminding me. Um,
03:41:06 you for reminding me. Um, may I thank you for attending to give oral evidence to help me in my far from straightforward task in finding out and reaching a conclusion about what
03:41:17 reaching a conclusion about what happened all those years ago. Um, you're going to help me further a bit about blacklisting. I understand and I'd be grateful if if uh you and those who uh who represent you would do that. Um, if
03:41:29 who represent you would do that. Um, if it's necessary to come back to you to ask you further questions about that, may I do that in due course either in writing or certainly
03:41:38 certainly to ask you to come back and speak to me? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. We will resume tomorrow. I think we not at 10:00. Yes.