"Alison" (Continued) - HN15 Mark Jenner's Reporting and Disappearance

Full transcript

00:26:19 Good afternoon everybody. As this morning's proceedings uh were broadcast, these will be broadcast by voice only

00:26:29 after 10 minutes have elapsed uh since the event uh being spoken about. Uh those with mobile devices may use them to speak to the outside world about what

00:26:42 to speak to the outside world about what they've heard in the hearing, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed. They may not be used for recording or photography. Thank you, sir.

00:26:53 Thank you, sir. Um Allison, I want to now move on to ask you um some questions about um Mark Jenner's uh reporting. Uh we've touched upon this um on occasions before uh the break this

00:27:06 occasions before uh the break this morning. Um you have already said that there was there doesn't appear to be any reporting about you um in his reporting. uh and that's despite the fact that you uh have said

00:27:19 despite the fact that you uh have said yourself that you were an active uh member in the Colin Roach Center particularly in 95 1996. Is that right? Yeah.

00:27:29 Yeah. Uh you attended the CRC meetings together with Mark Jenner. Is that right?

00:27:35 right? Yeah.

00:27:35 Yeah. Uh did he um also attend meetings without you? Yes.

00:27:44 Yes. uh his explanation for the lack of reporting on you at paragraph 224 of his statement is uh that he only included information on key activists or

00:27:57 information on key activists or participants and she that's referring to you was neither of these. Um do you have any particular comment on that? Do did you consider yourself a key

00:28:09 Do did you consider yourself a key activist or um participant in Colin Roach Center events and meetings? I consider myself an active participant. Um what I think is perhaps more

00:28:20 Um what I think is perhaps more interesting for me is that it differs from the reporting and the evidence that we've heard from lots of undercover police officers who say they were hoovering up intelligence about everybody. So when it suddenly became

00:28:31 everybody. So when it suddenly became when did it suddenly who got who sent and when did the memo get received that they were only to report on key activists? I don't know what he means by key activists. It seems to me he means

00:28:42 key activists. It seems to me he means men largely. Um it doesn't quite add up because he you know my understanding is they what what did one of them say that um all evidence

00:28:54 did one of them say that um all evidence is all intelligence is good intelligence. Not all intelligence is evidence, but they wanted to hoover up intelligence about everybody. So, it doesn't quite add up as a as an explanation. Yes. And at paragraph 6.2 of your

00:29:06 Yes. And at paragraph 6.2 of your statement, you say you regularly spoke at meetings when they related to issues which were important to you, such as education or anti-fascism. Is that right?

00:29:16 right? Yeah, I'm sure I would have done. I'm sure I would have talked about being Jewish. I'm sure we talked about the 43 group. I mean Mark and I, as I put in my statement, we went to um Centerprise um

00:29:27 statement, we went to um Centerprise um in Dorston to hear Morris Beckman talk about his um autobiography about the 43 group, which was an anti-fascist group after the war. Um so I would have spoken about that and I would have definitely

00:29:39 about that and I would have definitely spoken about um issues relating to schools and education. Do you think um others at the CRC would have described you as a um a key activist or participant in this in the

00:29:50 activist or participant in this in the center?

00:29:51 center? I'm not sure what key means. I mean, yeah, he I I was definitely um an active participant for a couple a good couple of years.

00:29:59 of years. Thank you. Um, you also point out that um, where he states at paragraph 185 of his statement, I was hoovering up

00:30:10 statement, I was hoovering up information on everyone in the groups I was involved in and providing it all to the SDS. That's rather a contradiction with what he's just said about you, isn't it?

00:30:18 isn't it? Yeah, that's my earlier point. Yeah. Um, why do you think it is that you don't appear in the reporting um, the inquiry has? Is that um him trying to hide the relationship with you?

00:30:30 hide the relationship with you? I think it's partly him trying to hide the relationship with me, but I suspect also there's a lot of information and a lot of reporting that's been shredded. I see. And you think it's both, do you?

00:30:42 I see. And you think it's both, do you? Yeah.

00:30:45 Uh at paragraph 6.4, you deal with um two particular reports of events that I just want to ask you a little more about, please. and you say that you feel

00:30:56 about, please. and you say that you feel more certain that you were present um at these but nevertheless you don't appear in the intelligence reports. Um can we look please at MPS0245625.

00:31:10 Um sir this is at tab C42 of HN15's bundle and it's a report on a CRC conference um held at the Halby Center

00:31:21 conference um held at the Halby Center on the 28th of October 1995 to launch uh resistance.

00:31:30 Um do you remember what do you remember of that conference?

00:31:36 I mean, I remember not a lot if I'm honest. Uh, I know it happened. I remember the whole a lot of the conversations around resistance in the buildup. Um, it I don't want to minimize

00:31:50 buildup. Um, it I don't want to minimize the uh more serious activities of some of the members of the Colony Roach Center. I don't include myself in this. Um, but it often felt to me a little bit

00:32:01 Um, but it often felt to me a little bit like, particularly after we found out we've been spied on, a little bit like Citizen Smith, you know, the People's Republic of Tooting, that we were we had we had ideas slightly bigger than, you

00:32:12 we had ideas slightly bigger than, you know, our capacity or much bigger than our capacity. Um, so I was in two minds about resistance. I did feel it was a bit like a a political party, but I think I was at that, you know, I kind of

00:32:23 think I was at that, you know, I kind of think I went to that event. Can I remember much about it? Not really, but I think I was probably there. Could we just look at the second page, please?

00:32:39 Thank you. Uh we see there uh clearly Mark Cassidy, um Mark Jenner's cover name is mentioned there, Steve Hedley, uh Mark Metaf, and Celia Stubs. And then

00:32:50 uh Mark Metaf, and Celia Stubs. And then there are various redactions for privacy. Um, you don't appear um in in this list. Yeah. But you and so you think that Mark Jenner deliberately left

00:33:01 think that Mark Jenner deliberately left you out.

00:33:02 you out. No, I probably wouldn't. Sorry. I probably wouldn't have spoken in a big meeting like that, a big conference. I probably didn't speak out. I probably didn't contribute. Thank you. Um, could we look please at MPS01422?

00:33:15 And that's at tab B6 of the bundle.

00:33:22 Uh this is a report on the final meeting of the Colin Roach Center on the 19th of October 1998. Um you think you were definitely at this

00:33:35 Um you think you were definitely at this meeting?

00:33:36 meeting? I mean definitely I think I was there. You know there there's a couple of meetings that are reported like this. There's another one, I don't know whether you'll take us to it, that I was almost I would almost say definitely

00:33:47 almost I would almost say definitely there where there was a quite a big argument about the setting up of resistance. I kind of feel I was there. Yeah, I do. Have I got it in my diary? I don't know. We'd have to cross reference, but yes, I feel like I was at

00:33:59 reference, but yes, I feel like I was at these meetings. And this one was relatively significant, wasn't it? Given it was the final meeting

00:34:06 meeting um of the Colin Rope Center before it closed. Yes, but it's 19 is it 98? Yes. Where I was not, you know, I was not I'd stepped back. So, if I was there, it was

00:34:17 stepped back. So, if I was there, it was really to kind of, you know, make up numbers to um to be there as part of a vote. I was not particularly engaged. And we see again at the bottom, Metaf mentioned, Smith mentioned two privacy

00:34:30 mentioned, Smith mentioned two privacy reductions. You're you're not in that list.

00:34:33 list. No.

00:34:33 No. Do you think you would have contributed to this meeting? Possibly. But possibly not. I mean, possibly not. Um, at paragraph uh 6.6 of your witness

00:34:45 Um, at paragraph uh 6.6 of your witness statement, um, you um, comment in these terms. Among those named by Mark in the report are people who I do not recall speaking very much at meetings including

00:34:57 speaking very much at meetings including and then the four privacy redactions. Um, just pausing there. Um, and you say who the last of whom seemed to be me to be extremely shy and I barely ever heard him speak publicly.

00:35:09 him speak publicly. Um, if we look at if you look at the cipher list and again be careful not to name them, but I know who the shy one is. You you know if you look at the cipher list at paragraph 6.6, you'll see who

00:35:21 list at paragraph 6.6, you'll see who those four people um are. And again, without naming them um all four of them are men, aren't they? Yeah.

00:35:31 Yeah. You continue in that paragraph, "My memories of this time are not great, and I cannot say with 100% certainty that I was present, but given the nature of the meeting, the fact that it is recorded in

00:35:42 meeting, the fact that it is recorded in my diary, and that it was attended by all my closest contacts in the CRC, I think it is very likely I was there. Assuming that was the case, I am hardly a wallflower, so I imagine it was likely

00:35:54 a wallflower, so I imagine it was likely that I would have contributed at least as much or as little as the people I have named above." Um, is this is this these names on here? Is this at this meeting?

00:36:05 this at this meeting? Yeah.

00:36:05 Yeah. Okay. I think number one is actually a woman.

00:36:09 woman. I see. Thank you. I think I think but number two Yeah. I never heard him speak. Barely. He was very shy. So if that's me, yeah, I I think yes, I would have spoken as much

00:36:21 think yes, I would have spoken as much as they did. And if they were there, I probably was there. Um at paragraph 6.7 uh you carry on in the report on the final meeting of CRC the only only four

00:36:34 final meeting of CRC the only only four men are named this reflects a pattern that runs through the disclosure that I have seen which indicates that Mark reported primarily on male members of the group that he was involved in. This

00:36:45 the group that he was involved in. This is the case both in who he recorded in the list of attendees at events and who he singled out for personal proformers in respect of the CRC. this maledominated reporting does not reflect

00:36:57 maledominated reporting does not reflect my memory of the organization which had several active female participants. Um why do you think it is that in general there was less reporting by Mark Jenner

00:37:08 there was less reporting by Mark Jenner on women activists than there were on men?

00:37:11 men? Because I think he thought they were irrelevant.

00:37:16 Um indicative of his attitude his true attitude.

00:37:20 attitude. His attitude to women. Yeah. I I mean I can think of three in particular who were strong active women, politically active and I

00:37:33 active women, politically active and I haven't I mean I haven't seen all of the reports on the CRC but I haven't seen their names mentioned. Um do you have any further comment on Mark Jenner's attitudes towards women or

00:37:44 Mark Jenner's attitudes towards women or women activists with the benefit of hindsight knowing what you do know about him now?

00:37:50 him now? I think I I think one of the officers I think it might have been Peter Francis who talked about um the use of the word Doris and I do remember him using that word once about I think women police

00:38:03 word once about I think women police officers. Um yeah I think he was quite old-fashioned and he uh had unreonstructed attitudes towards women. I think it's fair to say.

00:38:15 I think it's fair to say. Um in paragraph 6.8 eight. Um you comment in particular that um while there is a general trend of less reporting on women. I note by way of

00:38:26 reporting on women. I note by way of example that my close friend privacy is named in at least eight CRC reports albeit with her name misspelled with we touched on this earlier. In you say in two of those reports she

00:38:37 In you say in two of those reports she is named only in order to note the unnecessary personal information of the status of her relationship. Yeah.

00:38:43 Yeah. With privacy. However, the remaining six relate to her political activity, including noting her attendance at meetings. And although Privacy was more

00:38:54 meetings. And although Privacy was more involved in the cent's work on immigration support than I was, I think our attendance at meetings would have been roughly equivalent. And I wonder therefore why she is named and I am not.

00:39:05 therefore why she is named and I am not. Yeah.

00:39:05 Yeah. Um why do you think she's named and you are not?

00:39:09 are not? Um

00:39:11 Um I think she's named in relation to her partner because he was somebody worth in in Mark's view worth reporting on and they wanted to collect evidence uh

00:39:23 they wanted to collect evidence uh intelligence socalled on everybody in personal relationships. Uh she was more active in immigration issues. So they were hoovering up information there. Um,

00:39:35 were hoovering up information there. Um, and I w he didn't he wanted to write me out of I believe he wanted to write me out of the reports from a pretty early an early point in his deployment. Thank you. Um, you make some

00:39:46 Thank you. Um, you make some observations on the tone of the reporting you've seen by Mark Jenner in particular paragraph 6.9 to 6.11 of your statement. And you say that it was

00:39:58 statement. And you say that it was sarcastic, um, judgmental and disparaging. M is that right? Yes, it was. And um in a way when I think back on those

00:40:09 in a way when I think back on those years, one of the things, you know, the left can be very sectarian. Um and uh he he used to make some of these comments almost at the time with me about, oh,

00:40:21 almost at the time with me about, oh, it's quite, you know, it's quite boring, isn't it? and I agreed sometimes, but seeing them in a, you know, it's one thing having a conversation with somebody who you think's on the same side and quite another thing when it's

00:40:33 side and quite another thing when it's written in a report. And I think what we're seeing through these reports is an attitude of disdain and um and almost dehumanization, particularly the use of

00:40:44 dehumanization, particularly the use of the language wearies. It's like, you know, if you can make them that much other, you can do what you like to them. Thank you. Um, at paragraph 6.12 to 6.14

00:40:55 Thank you. Um, at paragraph 6.12 to 6.14 of your statement, you give your views on his deployment, his reporting, and his involvement in your life. And you say you're disgusted by his deployment and believe it was abhorrent that

00:41:06 and believe it was abhorrent that information about the CRC was obtained and reported by an undercover officer. Um, can you just expand upon why you say that? Yeah, there's a lot of um there's

00:41:18 that? Yeah, there's a lot of um there's been a lot of talk through the inquiry about the notion of subversion and the idea that the activists who were spied upon were somehow subversive. And I think what we see through these

00:41:29 think what we see through these reporting is that actually the people subverting the democracy was these undercover police officers who were steering and um impacting on the

00:41:40 steering and um impacting on the decisions and the lives of some of the people they were spying on. Um, I'm un I was unsurprised by it up to I was unsurprised by the spying on the group. I was surprised and shocked by

00:41:51 group. I was surprised and shocked by the uh relationship with me and those close relationships and very close friendships in people's homes um that that he established. I think I mean I could go on. It's just my disgust, you

00:42:05 could go on. It's just my disgust, you know, it's it's a very strong word, but I kind of have to I have to bring it up again because you can't you can't live with that level of intensity of feeling.

00:42:16 with that level of intensity of feeling. Um cuz we've become almost desensitized to it. We've heard so many of these stories, so many of these officers, and I think it's important to try to remember how appalled I was, how

00:42:27 remember how appalled I was, how appalled I am um by by what Mark and his managers did. And you say it's the fact that he was so embedded in your personal life and in

00:42:38 embedded in your personal life and in the personal lives of of uh of others, so many involved in the CRC that is so deeply disturbing. Do you still find that level of intrusion deeply disturbing?

00:42:49 disturbing? Yeah, I think it absolutely is. I mean, it's, you know, I know we've said these things before, but it's this idea of democracy, the idea of, you know, we bemoan the fact now that we have young

00:43:01 bemoan the fact now that we have young people and a populace that is so alienated from politics and we often put that about we talk about the lack of trust in public institutions. But but what's happened here is is is

00:43:13 But but what's happened here is is is the part not in total but in part the reason for for this you know we were we were people were trying to organize politically they were trying to get together in collectives and

00:43:25 together in collectives and make positive change and in in what these people did what this institution of the police did was create a completely upside down world where where

00:43:37 completely upside down world where where people with a moral code are being seen as um the baddies and the people with no moral code are somehow the ones who are

00:43:48 moral code are somehow the ones who are being commended and and given expected to be given respect in society. Yes. Um do you consider that any reporting at all on the Colin Roach uh

00:43:59 reporting at all on the Colin Roach uh center and its members was justified? No.

00:44:03 No. Um, I want to look at in a little bit more detail about Mark Jenner's role that he played in the the CRC. Um, you've already said that he became an active member of the CRC and he

00:44:16 active member of the CRC and he regularly attended meetings either with you or on his own without you. Is that right?

00:44:21 right? Yeah.

00:44:22 Yeah. Um,

00:44:25 Um, how active was he within the meetings themselves? Was he outspoken and engaged in them or was he really just listening? It was a bit of both. It depended. He he positioned himself as a um a kind of a a

00:44:40 positioned himself as a um a kind of a a support a kind of chorus or support for Mark Mechov when he he positioned himself actually with whoever he thought was going to be the most powerful and influential, whoever he thought he was was the most significant. And when he

00:44:52 was the most significant. And when he came into the Colin Roach Center, that was Mark Meoff. And um so he was a bit of a cheerleader for him. I see. Um you uh detail some of the

00:45:03 I see. Um you uh detail some of the other uh types of activities that he became involved in in the CRC. At paragraph 7.2 of your statement, you say he attended regularly uh CRC meetings

00:45:14 he attended regularly uh CRC meetings and pickets with trade unions including the RMT and he wrote articles for CRC publications. Is that right? Yeah.

00:45:22 Yeah. um without naming them uh and unless they're we know that you you can like with Mark Metaf. Um did he socialize with CRC members without you

00:45:34 socialize with CRC members without you present?

00:45:36 present? Um

00:45:38 Um maybe a bit but not a great deal. A little bit. A little bit. And in terms of um the type of role he undertook within the organization

00:45:49 undertook within the organization itself, you say at paragraph 7.4, I can't recall if he took any positions at the CRC such as treasurer, but he became a key figure in the organization. He volunteered for roles, the main one

00:46:01 volunteered for roles, the main one being driver. Yeah. Using his van, he would drive people to events and also transport sound equipment for gigs. And you say you think he also once built a sandwich board put outside the CRC to

00:46:12 sandwich board put outside the CRC to let members of the public know when uh when they were open. And he also did some carpentry work in the center at some point too. Is that right? [snorts] Um in 1995 1996 the CRC became

00:46:27 Um in 1995 1996 the CRC became affiliated with anti-fascist action which you've referred to um on occasions this morning. Yeah. Um, did Mark Jenner become involved with the AFA at that stage?

00:46:40 involved with the AFA at that stage? I think so. Yeah. And um, I think you say at paragraph 7.6 that uh, Mark became one of the main delegates from the CRC and I believe

00:46:51 delegates from the CRC and I believe that he volunteered for this role and it was agreed by a vote. So that was a very specific particular role he took on as a as a position of responsibility. Yeah. [snorts]

00:47:03 Yeah. [snorts] Um

00:47:05 Um did um Mark Jenner, so far as you were aware, attempt to sway the direction of the group either at the CRC or with um so far as you're aware at at AFA?

00:47:17 so far as you're aware at at AFA? I don't know about um in APA within the Conro Center. He put his weight behind um positions taken by Mark Metaf which you know other

00:47:29 taken by Mark Metaf which you know other people did too but there were some people who disagreed but so his contribution was to um give an you know an undemocratic imbalance if you like because he wasn't really one of the

00:47:41 because he wasn't really one of the members but he did he was a powerful um he was a you know a powerful character around the table for the reasons that I set out earlier. Yeah thank you. uh paragraph 7.11 you

00:47:53 Yeah thank you. uh paragraph 7.11 you you comment that he wrote his influence out of his reporting and so for example at MPS024686

00:48:04 uh this is a document from March 1996 uh which sets out the key players in an internal dispute that you've referred to earlier about the resistance group.

00:48:15 earlier about the resistance group. Yeah. Um and there was a dispute between various people um three people who have privacy reductions, Mark Metaf and Steve Hedley.

00:48:25 Hedley. Yeah.

00:48:26 Yeah. And yet you say this report um essentially ignores entirely the contribution that Mark Jenner personally paid to this clash of personalities through supporting Mark Metaf's

00:48:38 through supporting Mark Metaf's position. Is that right? And that's what you were referring to. That's exactly what I'm referring to. Yeah. Uh you also say at paragraph 7.13 of your statement that um he put some

00:48:50 of your statement that um he put some people off um such as anarchists and um labor members and that he contributed to a dominant male voice in the group. What what do you mean by the dominant male voice?

00:49:03 male voice? Just that a dominant workingclass men's voice which you know I go back to what I said earlier. It was welcomed in some ways as a workingclass voice. Um it was it was quite dominant. Um and he he was

00:49:17 it was quite dominant. Um and he he was a kind of a wingman for for Mark Metaf for during this period and there were people who I know felt he was you know the the the kind of joint particularly

00:49:29 the the the kind of joint particularly Mark Jenner was slightly borish and uh not what they'd kind of originally signed up for and moved away. I see. Uh you also got that can be taken

00:49:40 I see. Uh you also got that can be taken down now. Thank you. Um you also say at paragraph 7.14 that um he also deliberately tried to sew dissent between some of the strong women

00:49:51 dissent between some of the strong women in the group and you give a particular example about falsely asserting that a friend of yours and a fellow CRC member had made a pass at him. Yeah.

00:50:02 Yeah. Um do you have any further comment about that now that you'd like to make? Well, I just think it's I you know, at the time I believed him. Of course I did. He told me she made a pass to him.

00:50:13 did. He told me she made a pass to him. I had a complete go at her. We fell out. I mean, our friendship was never really the same until many, many years later after this all came out. Um, and then I

00:50:24 after this all came out. Um, and then I met up with her and talked to her about this and it just didn't happen. Yeah. Thank you. Um I want to move on to ask you um just some questions about the

00:50:35 ask you um just some questions about the trip that we referred to briefly this morning to Belfast and Derry. Yeah.

00:50:39 Yeah. Um you deal with this at paragraph 7.15 to 7.20

00:50:45 to 7.20 initially of your statement and you say that um Mark Jenner volunteered to drive um you and some of the group to the West Belfast Festival or FL.

00:50:56 or FL. Yeah. um which you say um reassured you and convinced you to go. Yes.

00:51:02 Yes. Um why did you need reassuring? What were the concerns? Because it's not, you know, it's not my politics. Not I don't know about it. I didn't know about it uh enough. I had a

00:51:15 didn't know about it uh enough. I had a kind of general sort of Paul McCartney give Ireland back to the Irish. That was about the level of my knowledge and understanding if I'm honest. Um I was nervous.

00:51:25 nervous. uh my close friend who was we've mentioned earlier she wasn't going um and I think if it if and I had a bit of FOMO I had a bit of fear of missing

00:51:36 of FOMO I had a bit of fear of missing out I thought if Mark was going you know with this group there were a couple of women involved I wanted to go and and I um you know Mark Metaf was I think

00:51:48 um you know Mark Metaf was I think correct in saying you know this is not political tourism we're going to show solidarity we're going to understand about comm community organizing. We're going to understand about community resistance um from police brutality. And

00:52:01 resistance um from police brutality. And the and the thinking behind it was that the way the police and the state operate in the north of Ireland would be the way that they would operate on the mainland in a time of crisis. So we were going to

00:52:14 in a time of crisis. So we were going to it was like a it was political education and a solidarity trip. Um but I absolutely would not have gone if Mark had not been driving. That was going to be my next question. You you wouldn't

00:52:25 be my next question. You you wouldn't have gone had he not been there? No.

00:52:28 No. Um the trip was from the 9th to the 15th of August in 1995 and um you you went to Belfast and then you also went to Derry and I believe you stayed with Steve

00:52:40 and I believe you stayed with Steve Hedley's mother. Is that right? Yeah.

00:52:43 Yeah. Um was Steve Hedley there as well? Yeah.

00:52:48 Yeah. Uh,

00:52:50 Uh, so far um, as you know, was Mark Jenner involved in any disorder whilst he was there on that trip? Well, I remember there was one evening, I think it was in Belfast, I think

00:53:02 I think it was in Belfast, I think something was happening and I remember them [clears throat] saying, "You're staying here. You're not coming with us." So maybe there was disorder that night. Yeah. And um, if we could just look at UCPI

00:53:14 And um, if we could just look at UCPI 37959,

00:53:16 37959, please. It's at tab A73 of the bundles. Uh

00:53:24 [clears throat] that's a picture of [laughter] um [cough] Mark Jenner showing the camera uh a bruise on his torso. Yeah.

00:53:32 Yeah. Um do you believe that he got that in some form of disorder on this trip? Yeah.

00:53:39 Yeah. Um did he ever say anything to you about being kicked in the head? No.

00:53:44 No. Uh you say at paragraph 7.28 um of your statement that whilst in Belfast he drove you all down the Shankill road at loyalist area. Yes.

00:53:56 Shankill road at loyalist area. Yes. And at 7.29 he also went there on foot to take photographs of the murals. Yeah.

00:54:02 Yeah. And at 7.31 he engaged someone from Republican Shinfane in conversation. Yeah. He you go on to say at 7.32

00:54:13 Yeah. He you go on to say at 7.32 he then started to take an interest in Irish politics and via the buildings work building workers group became involved in Republican forum. Yeah.

00:54:22 Yeah. At 7:33

00:54:24 At 7:33 you say he took you to a pub in Islington at which you were uncomfortable because a drunk stood on a table shouting continuity IRA. 7.34 he attended some seashir events and

00:54:37 7.34 he attended some seashir events and at 7:35

00:54:39 at 7:35 he claimed to have received a death threat by telephone at 3:00 um one morning. I don't need to go into any particular further details about those events but I do just want to ask you

00:54:50 events but I do just want to ask you about risk if um I may um knowing what you do now uh that Mark Jenner was of course an undercover metropolitan police officer at those times during those

00:55:01 officer at those times during those events. How do you feel about the nature of the risks he may have been exposing you to by, for example, taking you to Belfast, acting in the manner he did, and associating with the people he did

00:55:13 and associating with the people he did in this field? Um,

00:55:19 it's difficult because I appreciate I was ideologically naive and I had a degree of free will. I know I was influenced heavily by him, but I I chose

00:55:30 influenced heavily by him, but I I chose to go. I don't think I would have gone without him when we were there. I'm not sure we were at that much risk. I mean, we did, you know, we I did get kind of dragged off the uh the dairy walls by

00:55:42 dragged off the uh the dairy walls by the RU. Um I think the the big out of all of these, the biggest risk, particularly given what he says about why he started a relationship with me, is the death threat to my landline.

00:55:54 is the death threat to my landline. um that that death threat I at the time I was really quite thrown by that. Um I didn't hear it. I just the

00:56:05 that. Um I didn't hear it. I just the phone went in the middle of the night. I passed it. They said, "Is it's is Mark there?" I just passed it over half asleep. I said, "It's for you." I didn't hear what the other person said. But when he put the phone down, I said, "What did he say?" And he said, "Uh, I'm

00:56:18 "What did he say?" And he said, "Uh, I'm going to kill you, you fenian bastard." At which point my response was, shouldn't we call the police? To which he said,

00:56:27 he said, um, he looked like, "No, of course not. If if they're going to do it, they don't phone first," which I thought was a fair point. And he went down to the cellar and got a piece of wooden batting and

00:56:38 and got a piece of wooden batting and putting it in the window. So, he dealt with it in a very calm way. Um, afterwards, after he disappeared and I started to suspect what he really was, it did occur to me that maybe that

00:56:51 it did occur to me that maybe that wasn't actually a death threat and maybe that was a phone call, a setup phone call um by from some one of his handlers or something to make it appear that there was a risk and I don't know. I

00:57:02 there was a risk and I don't know. I mean, again, it's filling in the gaps, but um

00:57:07 but um I accept, you know, I I accept some responsibility personally of making pretty stupid choices along the way. Um however,

00:57:16 however, uh

00:57:18 uh I would not have been anywhere near any of these people. Certainly that Tuttonshive night with that man on the part on the table with the imaginary rifle sticks in my head to this day. Um,

00:57:32 rifle sticks in my head to this day. Um, so yeah, he he brought me into contact with people um who I would not otherwise have been brought into contact with and that shouldn't have happened. He shouldn't have been in my life. Full stop, should he?

00:57:43 stop, should he? Thank you. Um, did you ever witness um, Mark Jenner involved in any particular criminality during your time here? Only related to cannabis.

00:57:56 Um, he smoked cannabis. He did. Um, I think you say also in paragraph 7.41 to 7.43 of your statement that he smuggled some cannabis seeds back from Amsterdam and

00:58:08 cannabis seeds back from Amsterdam and then grew cannabis plants in your cellar. Is that right? Yeah. Um,

00:58:14 Um, thank you. But then destroyed the wrong ones. Yes, I saw that. Um I want to move on now to uh

00:58:24 now to uh Mark Jenner's withdrawal strategy or what you would have experienced simply as him leaving. Yeah. Uh

00:58:33 so at paragraph 60 of his witness statement, he gives uh a reason for only having filed four reports during the period October to December 1999 as being

00:58:44 period October to December 1999 as being due to scaling down his involvement and feigning depression as part of his exit strategy. Um did Mark seem depressed to you in the autumn of 1999?

00:58:56 you in the autumn of 1999? No.

00:58:58 No. What what was he doing throughout this time?

00:59:00 time? I mean, this was a time, you know, I'm going looking at my statement here as a reminder, but this was a time where we were going to my cousin's wedding, my my mom's party. We were going out for lunch

00:59:12 mom's party. We were going out for lunch with friends. Um, we were planning a trip to America the following year. No, he was he didn't seem the slightest bit depressed. It wasn't until It wasn't

00:59:23 depressed. It wasn't until It wasn't until he came back after the Christmas holidays of that year, the new year, December 1999, that he appeared to change

00:59:32 change and and talk to me about that. How did did his behavior change after that Christmas? What what was his uh demeanor once he came back from that from Holo Day?

00:59:42 Day? He came back like a different man. He he went to he had to go up to Burken Head cuz apparently his grandfather had had a stroke and he came back with his beard had you know his beard had grown. He was

00:59:55 had you know his beard had grown. He was barely speaking. Um he'd said he'd had a fight with his stepfather. Um and there was a whole stop but he was incredibly withdrawn and then he said uh he was

01:00:08 withdrawn and then he said uh he was working up in Luton um until March of that year and then he was going to get a big payout and that's when we could talk about having the kiddies

01:00:19 about having the kiddies and you mentioned his uh grandfather and some ill health. I think you wanted to go with him to on that visit to see his grandfather didn't you? And the reason for you being unable to go related to

01:00:32 for you being unable to go related to some ill health that your own father um had at the time and your father had a particular deterioration in his um health, meaning he needed to be

01:00:43 health, meaning he needed to be hospitalized. Is that right? And you had to go and visit your father, which meant you couldn't go Yeah. with Mark. Is that right? Um, you talk in paragraph 8.19 of your statements about

01:00:55 paragraph 8.19 of your statements about some suspicions you hold about that now. Yeah.

01:00:58 Yeah. Um, just briefly outline what those suspicions are.

01:01:06 So, I sigh because I know how mad they sound and uh I would just preface it by saying that they're either um they're either true,

01:01:18 they're either um they're either true, I'm either right, in which case that's deeply shocking, or I'm wrong and it's indicative of how twisted my brain became after learning who who Mark

01:01:30 became after learning who who Mark really was. So my my I I mean without looking at timelines the the exact dates I think Mark got the call he got a pager call I think on the 23rd of December

01:01:42 call I think on the 23rd of December saying his grandfather had the stroke. I said I'm coming with you. He said you can't. I was like I'm coming with you. My family are Jewish. We really really don't care about Christmas. It's fine. I'm coming with you. No, you absolutely can't. A couple of days before this my

01:01:53 can't. A couple of days before this my dad was in hospital in Surrey with a chest infection. Then on the 24th, which I think was when Mark was going up to see his grandpa,

01:02:04 Mark was going up to see his grandpa, I get a call from my brother saying my dad is being moved to a hospital in Toqu uh possibly with a police escort. They

01:02:15 uh possibly with a police escort. They wanted to helicopter him out. Um but it's too windy. Um and at that point, Mark was like, "You've got to go and see your dad." So, uh, Mark went up to

01:02:27 your dad." So, uh, Mark went up to Burken Head to see his grandpa, apparently. And, um, my brother and I went to see my dad on Boxing Day. He was in a coma. He had been in a coma. We

01:02:39 in a coma. He had been in a coma. We were told he was in a coma. And then on the 26th when we arrived, it's quite a long drive from London. And he'd made a miraculous recovery. And he was speaking and not in the coma. He'd come out of the coma. And he said um he was he said,

01:02:53 the coma. And he said um he was he said, "I've been in an internment camp in New York. His hospital, this hospital is an RAF base and and I was helicoptered out." Um and me and my brother were like, "You're hallucinating, Dad. You've

01:03:05 like, "You're hallucinating, Dad. You've been on some very heavy drugs." Um but you know, it it's a weird it's a very weird story. And all I can say is, as I said, either the police got very

01:03:17 as I said, either the police got very lucky there and something coincidentally happened that meant, okay, I wasn't going to drive Mark mad. I wasn't going with him. I had somewhere else to go for my family. Um, or it was somehow engineered by the state.

01:03:29 it was somehow engineered by the state. Yeah.

01:03:30 Yeah. Is the concern you have. And my dad had a, you know, I know it's privacy, but you know, my dad had a

01:03:38 dad had a Well, don't don't feel you need to go. No, but he I he I wouldn't have put it past him, but he the story that why would he have done it? What would he have what did I think in my madeup, you know, in my madeup account of what

01:03:50 know, in my madeup account of what happened here? What was he told? He was told it's all made up. But my supposition, my theory at the time was my dad was told, "Your daughter is involved with a very dangerous man."

01:04:02 involved with a very dangerous man." They didn't tell him was a police. He's involved with a very dangerous man. He's involved in Irish Republican politics. He's going to this meeting over Christmas. She wants to go with him. She can't go with him. You need to you're going to be fine. We're going to give

01:04:14 going to be fine. We're going to give you a lovely little sleeping pill for 2 days and you're going to be absolutely fine. And what we were told with when my dad was in that coma was um that he might have brain damage and be severely,

01:04:26 might have brain damage and be severely, you know, never be the same again. Suffice to say, he lived for another 19 years and was fine. Thank you. Um so at this time going back then to how Mark Jenner was presenting

01:04:37 then to how Mark Jenner was presenting to you um you still lived together in early 2000. Yeah.

01:04:42 Yeah. Um he presented as being increasingly depressed. Is that right? Um you

01:04:49 Um you previously had a partner who had suffered depression, had turned to alcohol and died. That's you told us about him this morning. Um Mark knew that. Mark Jenner knew

01:05:00 Um Mark knew that. Mark Jenner knew that. Yeah, presumably. Um, how do you feel about his feigning depression as part of his withdrawal strategy as a deliberate tactic? Now,

01:05:12 strategy as a deliberate tactic? Now, it's what they did, isn't it? They exploited and used and manipulated women like me. I mean, he wasn't the only one to feain depression. He wasn't the only one to pull on childhood trauma to

01:05:24 one to pull on childhood trauma to explain the sudden need to leave and get his head together. They dehumanized us. They exploited us. They objectified us. They used us. Um, it's shameful. I mean,

01:05:35 They used us. Um, it's shameful. I mean, it's absolutely shameful. And at the time, you were in a committed, loving relationship so far as you were concerned. What was the impact of the person you

01:05:46 What was the impact of the person you were in a relationship, a loving relationship with, someone you loved, presenting like that with depression? What What impact did that have on you at the time?

01:05:53 the time? Well, a part of me was like, "Not again." you know, another one. Um, and I remember when he had when he disappeared, I remember my mom um

01:06:04 disappeared, I remember my mom um saying, I can't remember something like, you know, maybe he just let had to go. And I shouted at her like, "He's not well. You don't understand. He's not well." So, I was, you know, my

01:06:16 well." So, I was, you know, my motivation for finding him was because I was very worried about him. I really thought, you know, he he was I believed it. He was, you know, deeply unwell and

01:06:28 it. He was, you know, deeply unwell and mentally unstable. He was he was leaving the house very early. So although we were living together in those last from like January when he came back until March when he left, he left the house much earlier and he came much came home

01:06:40 much earlier and he came much came home much later. Um so we we were still sleeping together in the same bed but he withdrew in every sense um emotionally and physically. Um, you deal then with the end of the

01:06:52 Um, you deal then with the end of the relationship. At paragraph 8.25, you say, "On the 15th of March, 2000, Mark suddenly moved out, taking all his belongings with him.

01:07:03 belongings with him. He left me a letter um saying he'd left me." Yeah.

01:07:08 Yeah. Um, and in that letter, he told me that I can't pull myself out of this, and I know I'm making you ill and upset and wasting your life away. When I said I loved you, I meant it. I have never

01:07:19 loved you, I meant it. I have never deceived or cheated on you. The closer we became and talk of family planning and settling brought me to think more to myself of dad and grand which drives me even deeper into the hole I'm now in.

01:07:32 even deeper into the hole I'm now in. And he said he was staying in a builder's hostel in Luton uh not the van as he says in his witness statement. And he also left an answer phone message for privacy, a friend of yours telling her he'd had to leave and

01:07:44 yours telling her he'd had to leave and asking her to look after you. Is that right? And that letter um we have at UCPI

01:07:52 UCPI 37

01:07:54 37 963

01:07:56 963 and it's at tab uh A77.

01:08:05 Um that's the letter um that he left you when he left in in March taking all of his belongings with him. Yeah.

01:08:14 Yeah. Um you say at paragraph 8.26 26. When I returned home and saw the note, I became hysterical and managed to reach Mark on his mobile phone and he told me he would come back to see me at the weekend. Yeah.

01:08:25 Yeah. Um he did come back. He did.

01:08:28 He did. On the 18th of March and he stayed overnight um with you that night and you say in your witness statement that you had sex in the afternoon. Yeah. And that he appeared uncomfortable about that.

01:08:39 that. Yeah.

01:08:39 Yeah. Um specifically about you being physically intimate together. Um how did he behave generally um during that day and evening?

01:08:50 and evening? It was a mixture of um quite detach. Well, it was a mixture of detached but also there was something slightly different about him. Um

01:09:03 he he was slightly different. He was he told a story about being frightened. He slept in the front room. I think I think that was then when he slept in the front room. uh he said he was frightened and

01:09:14 room. uh he said he was frightened and so he presented a completely different character. He was a you know he was a strong very capable fearless man and suddenly he was quite nervous and twitchy and and afraid. Um

01:09:29 nervous and twitchy and and afraid. Um you say that he told you he could not give you what you wanted. What did you think he meant by that? Well, there was some point I'm not sure it was

01:09:39 it was Well, I think he meant children. And I think he meant he couldn't, you know, he couldn't give me the committed relationship with children that I wanted and the stability that I wanted. And at this time when he'd returned on

01:09:50 And at this time when he'd returned on that weekend, what did you think about the relationship at this point? Did did you think that you'd persuaded him to stay with you or did you think the relationship was ending? No, I thought I persuaded him. I

01:10:02 No, I thought I persuaded him. I thought, you know, I was prepared to do like anything to look after him really. I was like, you know, forget the forget the politics. Don't worry about that lot. And you know, you could there were other cuz he said he he'd thrown in he

01:10:14 other cuz he said he he'd thrown in he or maybe this was when he came back. He said, "I've chucked it all in." When he came back, I think it was and he didn't have he had hardly any stuff. He had like a little kit bag with a few things and he said, "I've I've given up with all the politics and I've finished with

01:10:26 all the politics and I've finished with my job. I've chucked my job in." Um, and I I I

01:10:31 I I I saw that I I wasn't delighted about it, but I felt that I would be able to somehow, you know, help him get back on his feet and, you know, support him to be to feel

01:10:43 you know, support him to be to feel better.

01:10:45 better. At paragraphs 8.29 29 and 830. You note that his withdrawal strategy notes his managers noting him to be very relaxed at this point and that when he was

01:10:56 at this point and that when he was inflicting psychological distress on you at the time um would he have been aware of the distress he was causing you at the moment as you loved him? Absolutely. That phone call that mobile

01:11:08 Absolutely. That phone call that mobile on 8.26 where I managed to reach him on his mobile phone and he told me I was hysteric. I mean I my one of my friends who isn't here today but I she was coming around for dinner that evening

01:11:19 coming around for dinner that evening and I was just in the most appalling state and I remember her saying I remember lots of people saying just give him some space just give him he needs some space he'll come back just give him

01:11:30 some space he'll come back just give him some space and I was you know I was I was begging him um on the phone to come back I was really really devastated because I just saw this sort of you know

01:11:43 because I just saw this sort of you know this this investment of five years of my life with somebody just evaporating with in a way that I didn't completely understand at all. Not I just didn't understand.

01:11:54 understand. At paragraph 8.36 of your statement you say I also recall that during this period we spent an afternoon Yeah.

01:12:02 Yeah. in Stoke Newington Library where Mark searched a motorcycle trip website called the Balkan Run. Yeah. And at paragraph 305 of his witness statement, he describes how

01:12:13 witness statement, he describes how following his deployment, he went on a family trip to Germany and then he went on to Bosnia and Croatia before starting his new posting. Yeah.

01:12:21 Yeah. And you say, I now suspect he was planning his post- deployment holiday whilst I was worried sick about his mental state. Yeah. at the same at the same time as

01:12:32 Yeah. at the same at the same time as the Bulan run search at the library. I remember as well, which isn't in here, but as you're saying it, we went into a news a or he went into a news agent and he bought um

01:12:43 went into a news agent and he bought um an investments magazine, a magazine about investments that had dollar signs and pound signs on. And I was like, what's that about? You know, leftwing people tend not to have magazines like

01:12:54 people tend not to have magazines like that. And he said, um, just indulge my idiosyncrasies. And I thought, okay, some like you're not well. Like what's this about? Because he was um allegedly getting a payout at the end of this work in Luton

01:13:07 payout at the end of this work in Luton in March. And so he was working out what he was going to do with his money. But this bulan run thing when I saw when I saw his statement or the document that says Bosnia and Croatia was really like,

01:13:18 says Bosnia and Croatia was really like, you know, I mean, audacious is is uh doesn't even go there. It's just, you know, it's beyond, isn't it? You

01:13:29 you know, it's beyond, isn't it? You last saw him on Tuesday the 11th of April, I think, and he left you another letter. If we just look at it, UCPI 37964

01:13:41 at tab A78. Uh [snorts]

01:13:54 [cough] you say the impact of of um this on you, you were very upset and worried it was devastating for you at the time and you thought that he might take his own life.

01:14:06 thought that he might take his own life. Yeah.

01:14:08 Yeah. Um he then sent you two very short emails on the 11th of May and the 16th of May a postcard. Uh and if we just look at that uh UCPI

01:14:20 Uh and if we just look at that uh UCPI 37965

01:14:22 37965 tab A79.

01:14:28 [clears throat] That was the postcard and all it said was the words I don't want a holiday in the sun which is the title of a Sex Pistol song and letter to follow. Um, what did you think when you got that postcard at the time?

01:14:42 got that postcard at the time? Um, I thought it was probably a coded message. Uh, I didn't really understand it. I searched I don't want a holiday in the sun and that's how I found it was a Sex Pistol song. Um, the last words of

01:14:55 Sex Pistol song. Um, the last words of which are don't be waiting for me.

01:15:01 You were concerned about his mental health still. I was really concerned. I was concerned. I I was very concerned about his mental health. I think I was also quite concerned about my loss at this point.

01:15:12 concerned about my loss at this point. Um finally, um you say at paragraph 8.44 of your statement, there was a four-page letter, uh which you say now was very emotionally manipulative. We just look

01:15:24 emotionally manipulative. We just look at that. It's UCPI 37947

01:15:28 37947 and it's at tab A62 of the bundle. Um, in this letter he apologized again for leaving. Uh, he said, "I exploded

01:15:40 for leaving. Uh, he said, "I exploded and going back again after I first went was too painful to carry on as if nothing had happened. I felt very low and vulnerable." And later he says, "I couldn't carry on hoping that happy

01:15:51 couldn't carry on hoping that happy families would evolve and we would be okay because it wasn't happening. The worry and the stress of failure was making me ill and increas increasingly desperate. That's why I had to get away.

01:16:03 desperate. That's why I had to get away. Uh he said he'd bought an around the world ticket and was working on a building site in Berlin and that he'd continued to do casual laboring until he got his head together. And at the bottom of page two, please, he continued, I

01:16:17 of page two, please, he continued, I realize I have hurt a lot of people through what I've done to you, but I can only say that I am not a cunning evil bastard as many must now think, but I felt desperate, alone, and frightened.

01:16:28 felt desperate, alone, and frightened. [snorts] And then on page three, about six lines down, he says, "The week before I left, I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown. Tears, self-rrimination, guilt, pity, etc. And

01:16:41 self-rrimination, guilt, pity, etc. And then at the bottom of page three, I don't want to think about the past and all that's happened to me, and I'm not going to relive it with you." And at the top of page four, about six lines down,

01:16:55 top of page four, about six lines down, I haven't kept in touch because it hurts so much. It has taken me days to write this because I mentally collapse at having to write these things down on paper.

01:17:05 paper. Um, how does reading that letter make you feel now? It just makes me angry. It's such rubbish. And it's like one of those sort of GCSE exams where it says, "Please try to cover four pages of the paper." It's

01:17:18 to cover four pages of the paper." It's just it's totally madeup rubbish. And it's like, and again, you can't help but sort of look at it along. I I feel the need to I know this is about Mark and me, but it is also about the systemic

01:17:31 me, but it is also about the systemic nature of this abuse. And you have to look at these letters next to one another because they're like a template. And that begs the question, who's teaching them to write this? You know, there's a bit in one of the letters, it

01:17:43 there's a bit in one of the letters, it might be the earlier one, where he says something like, I'm sorry for all the things I have done and those I haven't, which is something that Bob Lambert says somewhere, I think, to to Belinda. So there there's themes and there's bits of

01:17:55 there there's themes and there's bits of this these letters that that like overlap. So it it really is like a really bad sort of you know GCSE non-fiction writing exercise

01:18:06 non-fiction writing exercise and as you say in your statement emotionally manipulative because designed to elicit sympathy in you. Yes. I'm supposed to be feeling sorry for him.

01:18:15 for him. Um and you heard nothing from him after this letter? No. Well,

01:18:21 No. Well, until you

01:18:22 until you No,

01:18:23 No, not after this letter. Uh, you say in paragraph 9.1 of your statement that can be taken down. Thank you. Um, that you immediately sought to track him down. Yes.

01:18:34 Yes. Uh, why?

01:18:37 Uh, why? Because I wanted I wanted to understand. I wanted to know he was okay in the first instance. But then soon after that it became really it was that sudden realization that in a normal

01:18:48 realization that in a normal relationship if somebody leaves you you normally know their family or their friends someone who you can talk to about it are they okay? What's happening with them? Why

01:19:00 okay? What's happening with them? Why have they left? Even if you can't get to speak to that person you can get to speak to some people around them. So, my first port of call was my address book, which had his grandpa's um phone number and and address in and I went to that

01:19:12 and and address in and I went to that and he'd scribbled it out so hard that at that point I was like, "Oh, you really don't want me to find you." And then that became a reason that I needed

01:19:23 then that became a reason that I needed to find him. You wanted to make sense of the sort of extraordinary way in which he disappeared. Yeah. I wanted answers. I'm like, you know, I I I come from a reasonably

01:19:34 know, I I I come from a reasonably functioning family where where you have like relationships with people and if you fall out with people or you break up with people, there's a conversation about it. You don't just walk out and write a letter and leave it on the table

01:19:46 write a letter and leave it on the table and then do you a favor, come back for a week, behave really weirdly, and then write another letter and walk out again, never to be seen again. It it's it's just I mean it's weird. But the thing I

01:19:58 just I mean it's weird. But the thing I would say though about that as well that in a way what what what he was using and so many of these officers have used is the general um emotional

01:20:11 used is the general um emotional incapacity of many men in our society because if there are many women who have men who walk out on them and they never see them again it turns out and what what your friends and your family do to

01:20:23 what your friends and your family do to protect you in those circumstances is to say don't waste your time with them. don't go looking for them. You need to move on. And so they're relying on they're relying on that. They're relying on the fact that you won't search for

01:20:34 on the fact that you won't search for them because you're better than them. They've told you you're better than them. Um and you're going to move on with your life. But for me, it it absolutely was not it's not okay to end

01:20:45 absolutely was not it's not okay to end a 5-year relationship by just walking out with a letter on the table. Um you started to develop suspicions that Mark Jenner was an undercover police officer. How did those suspicions

01:20:58 police officer. How did those suspicions come about? So, there was a phone call at some point after he left um from someone he was in one of the groups with who I think was just asking to speak to him. And I said, "He's left

01:21:10 to speak to him. And I said, "He's left me." Which in itself was quite humiliating. Um and this person said, "Oh, I think maybe you're going to need to have a chat about that." So, I met one of his sorry, one of his comrades in

01:21:21 one of his sorry, one of his comrades in a pub. And this person said, um, I just wanna I just want to ask a few questions about a few things uh to check that he's not a spook. And I was like, sorry. He

01:21:32 not a spook. And I was like, sorry. He said, I'm sure he's not, but you know, how did he pay for things? And just various questions. And I came out of that meeting sort of having sort of done a gusto shift of cha spook that suddenly

01:21:45 a gusto shift of cha spook that suddenly makes everything make sense. Um, that would explain why I hadn't met his family. That would explain why he doesn't want me to find him. that would explain it. Suddenly was like that that's the reason he's gone. And then

01:21:57 that's the reason he's gone. And then that became um a hypothesis that I then felt the need to evidence and prove. And so once you held those suspicions following that meeting with his comrade,

01:22:08 following that meeting with his comrade, um

01:22:09 um the motivation for finding Mark Jenner was to prove he was an undercover police officer or or some other Well, it was a combination really because I said earlier there was a little part of me there was a part of me

01:22:21 little part of me there was a part of me that fantasized that if I could get to speak to him, if I talk to him and I knew he was an undercover police officer, I knew he was an an agent of the state. I loved him so much that maybe we could

01:22:33 I loved him so much that maybe we could still have a future that wasn't, you know, and he had to leave because his cover was blown or I had a whole sort of story at that point. Um, and maybe we could slightly embarrassed to say, but I

01:22:45 could slightly embarrassed to say, but I will had this idea, you know, maybe we could go and live in Israel. We could replace one military state with another. We could like just go and live there and have But so it was a combination of yes, proving he was undercover or letting him

01:22:57 proving he was undercover or letting him know that I knew he was undercover. Hence the message that I wrote to him on email because in that letter you'll see he gave me his Mark Cassidy madeup 67 hotmail address

01:23:08 hotmail address and I at that point some point over at at that time I emailed him I I myself set up a hotmail address using a

01:23:19 set up a hotmail address using a um a nickname that he had for me and I said and I did nothing else with this email address except this one message which said have you run from it all.

01:23:31 which said have you run from it all. And then I got a tsunami of emails back offering me university diplomas, which I can say more about. Yes, it's in your witness statement. Um,

01:23:43 Yes, it's in your witness statement. Um, the comrade of his that you met up with, which um prompted your suspicions that he was an undercover police officer or some form of agent of the state. Do you remember which group that person

01:23:56 remember which group that person belonged to? Which activist group? Yeah.

01:24:01 Yeah. Which one? The AFA Red Action IWCA. Thank you. Crossover. And this person said to me at the end of it, I don't think he is. I think he's a man trapped and he's and

01:24:13 think he's a man trapped and he's and he's he's done a runner. Um, in once you had formed those suspicions that Mark Jenner was an undercover police officer and you were trying to track him down,

01:24:25 trying to track him down, um, were you any kind of threat to him in any way? No. I mean, as I said in my witness statement, the only threat that I posed to Mark Jenner and the police was

01:24:36 to Mark Jenner and the police was nothing physical. It was just the public exposure.

01:24:40 exposure. Uh, at paragraphs 9.5 and 9.6 six of your statement, you detailed that you called Terry, and we won't use his surname. Um, but you called Terry,

01:24:51 surname. Um, but you called Terry, [snorts] who was um Mark Jenner's cover employer. Yeah.

01:24:55 Yeah. Uh, and you you called him in April 2000. Um, what was your intention in calling Terry? What did you hope to achieve

01:25:03 achieve to ask where he is? Did he know did he have Mark had told me that he'd come down to London for work um through a connection via Terry? And so I'd hope that Terry would have a contact up north

01:25:16 that Terry would have a contact up north for Mark that he'd be able to uh put me in touch with so I could ask some of my questions. Then at paragraph 9.37 of your statement, you discuss the document which records that

01:25:27 discuss the document which records that inquiry of you of Terry. If we can have it on the screen, please. It's MPS 0749473.

01:25:36 It's at tab B4 of the bundle, sir. And it's page three, please.

01:25:43 [clears throat] Um, in relation to this, you say, um, it appears deliberately to mislead. Um, it notes your investigator's inquiry of Terry, but states that you were Mark

01:25:56 Terry, but states that you were Mark Metaf's girlfriend. Um, you were never Mark Metaf's girlfriend. I was never Mark Metaf's girlfriend. No. Why do you think it states that you were?

01:26:08 were? Because these things are written [clears throat] full of lies. I don't know why. I mean just to cover up. I don't know. It make this is all like not real nonsense. It's Mark Jenner again being deceitful

01:26:20 It's Mark Jenner again being deceitful and duplicitous but with his managers. Yeah. Touchy subject is a relatively relaxed about the inquiry and thinks that it might emanate from me who occupied a room in his former Duff. I

01:26:31 occupied a room in his former Duff. I mean what what I think is interesting about some of these documents they can't even keep track of their own lies. I'm in another one. I'm supposed to be his landlady, didn't occupy a room in his former dove. And you say that was him deliberately

01:26:43 And you say that was him deliberately again trying to conceal that you in fact were living together in a relationship as a couple. Yes. And I also think it's, you know, it's shocking that nobody Well, I don't

01:26:55 it's shocking that nobody Well, I don't really believe it. That's why. But it again it goes to the either it's either malign or incompetent that nobody um in Mark's uh HM53 or any other managers.

01:27:08 Mark's uh HM53 or any other managers. They also lacking in emotional intelligence to think that maybe Allison was connected more intimately to touchy subject than maybe he told them or than they were admitting to.

01:27:20 they were admitting to. Yes. You effectively you're questioning why his managers didn't question why a woman not mentioned in any reporting is so interested in tracing him. Correct.

01:27:31 Correct. Um you uh carried out I think some other searches um in relation to trying to find him for example with the DVLA. Um and as you've um said you you met

01:27:42 Um and as you've um said you you met with one of his um uh [clears throat] comrades. Uh how was all this affecting you at the time? You were clearly putting quite some time and effort into trying to trace him. Just describe your

01:27:54 trying to trace him. Just describe your mental state and how you were at the time.

01:27:58 time. It was very dark. I mean, I was obsessed. I was very angry. I was very distressed. Um, I was psychologically very very disturbed by it. I was, it was a

01:28:09 disturbed by it. I was, it was a combination of having been abandoned. um looking ahead at the rest of my life with none of the plans or hopes or dreams that I'd had suddenly, as I said,

01:28:21 dreams that I'd had suddenly, as I said, evaporated. Um I was worried about him and I was completely fixated. I'd become I mean I started by just looking for him and wanting to find him, but once I started

01:28:32 wanting to find him, but once I started to believe that he was um not who he said he was and he was some kind of state operative, I became fixated on on proving that. And I know we'll talk about impact later, but that's not easy

01:28:45 about impact later, but that's not easy to it's not easy to be friends with somebody like that. It's not easy to have a relationship with someone like that. You've got to be, you know, all credit to my friends who put up with it through those years. Um, did you tell others about your

01:28:56 Um, did you tell others about your suspicions about Mark Jenner? Well, unlike Helen, I told everybody. Yeah. Anybody who cared to listen, I told. I mean, what's their reaction? Well, my mom believed me. My mom was

01:29:08 Well, my mom believed me. My mom was like, "If that's what you think, then then then you're I believe you." Um, my brother, who won't thank me for this, kind of, you know, was like, "Look, you know, he left you cuz you're a pain in the ass. You don't need to construct

01:29:20 the ass. You don't need to construct some James Bond theory to to, you know, make yourself feel better." I think a lot of people thought I had uh delusions of like delusions of grandeur as well, like, you know, sorry, also like, you

01:29:32 like, you know, sorry, also like, you know, your funny little Timot organization. You think they they spied on you? um uh people for [clears throat] many many years not just then I mean those were the years when I was really fixated

01:29:44 the years when I was really fixated there came a point where actually around [snorts] two end of 2002 2003 I was I'd felt like I had I'd solved the puzzle for my own benefit I knew the answer I

01:29:55 for my own benefit I knew the answer I knew he was special branch and after that there were the years after that where I had my children and I met new friends through the children and I would tell this you know they'd be say oh You know, you talk about your past

01:30:07 oh You know, you talk about your past and your life and I would say not to everyone and not straight away. I tried not to say it straight away, but I would say my last boyfriend was, you know, a special branch spy and people would look

01:30:19 special branch spy and people would look like, okay, [laughter] you know, so it's it's been

01:30:24 it's been that was very difficult. It was very difficult. And my dad, I mean, I I think I've talked about this before, but my dad didn't, you know, my grandma, who you see on on the uh video,

01:30:35 grandma, who you see on on the uh video, you know, she had some mental health problems as a result of the abuse she suffered um through her life. And you know, we we're all quite I have no stigma around mental health. And so, we're quite open about it. And and my

01:30:46 we're quite open about it. And and my dad was like, you're just like your grandma. You're just, you know, you just it's all nons like it's all rubbish. And it was only when you know some men j male journalists reported it I think on the BBC or in the press and I was

01:30:59 the BBC or in the press and I was walking across um Leicester Square and I remember being on the phone to my dad and said have you seen it? It's this is like about 2013 or something 12 13. Have you seen it? Have you seen the stuff about Mark in the P? And he went oh

01:31:11 about Mark in the P? And he went oh literally in 2012 or 13. Oh so he really was an undercover police officer. Yeah. Um, I think you say in your statement that the relate counselor who

01:31:22 statement that the relate counselor who you've been to for counseling sessions believed you when you brought it up with them. Um, I think because he had said so little about his background in counseling sessions. Is that right? And then you you go on to say in your

01:31:33 then you you go on to say in your statement that over the next two years or so, you um researched and investigated obsessively uh enlisting a friend at the passport office um

01:31:46 office um uh who told you about a a record and um you really spent quite a lot of time um investigating and researching. Is that right? Yeah, I felt like I did a sort of

01:31:58 right? Yeah, I felt like I did a sort of a a a nonacredited PhD in the secret state during those years. Yeah. And and how did how did that impact your life? You you've touched on it a little bit just now, but um all of that time

01:32:09 bit just now, but um all of that time and effort and energy um had this taken over your life? Yes, I think it definitely. Yeah, it had a huge psychological impact. I mean the the psych the uh psychological

01:32:21 the psych the uh psychological assessment I had done for the civil claim um diagnosed me as having delusional disorder. And that wasn't that the psychologist disbelieved that Mark was an undercover police officer. It was some of the shifts that I'd made

01:32:35 It was some of the shifts that I'd made um the the interpretation such as the the story about my father and my interpretation of the coded messages within those university diplomas emails. Yes. Thank you. Um you had a private

01:32:48 Yes. Thank you. Um you had a private investigator do some investigating. Um they found very little you say but concluded that he had been Mark Jenner had been living under a false identity. Yeah.

01:32:58 Yeah. Um uh so that was um part of the puzzle. Um you then go on to um detail uh the confirmation of uh Mark Jenner's true

01:33:10 confirmation of uh Mark Jenner's true identity and how you how you confirmed that. So you say at paragraph 10.1 that you were introduced to Helen Steel in August 2003 um she had a book which referred to CE S

01:33:23 um she had a book which referred to CE S squad

01:33:24 squad and you concluded that Mark Jenner was special branch and then in 2010 Lisa unmasked Mark Kennedy. Uh, and you go on to to talk about how

01:33:36 Uh, and you go on to to talk about how in 2011, Helen Steel invited you to join the claim against the Metropolitan Police of with other women who had been deceived into deceitful sexual relationships with undercover officers.

01:33:49 relationships with undercover officers. Um, you revived your research efforts and you found Mark Jenner's Facebook page.

01:33:55 page. Yeah.

01:33:57 Yeah. Uh a journalist um on the ITV program suggests um the Guardian had a source who confirmed uh on the 15th of September 2011 that

01:34:09 uh on the 15th of September 2011 that Mark Jenner was um SDS targeted at the Colin Roach Center and that's how you found out finally his true identity and what he was doing.

01:34:20 what he was doing. Um you uh go on to say at paragraph 10.7 that through social media and genealogy sites you then traced the relation of Mark Jenner's his birth and marriage

01:34:31 Mark Jenner's his birth and marriage certificates and those of his children um plus his home address and you you say that on one birth certificate uh the father's occupation in other

01:34:42 uh the father's occupation in other words Mark Jenner's occupation was described as a police officer. Yeah. And on another child um child's um birth certificate the father's

01:34:53 birth certificate the father's occupation was recorded as joiner and that child was born at a time when he was in a relationship with you. Um what was the impact upon you of

01:35:04 Um what was the impact upon you of finding out at that time of about his marriage and his children and in particular that a child had been born during the time he was in a relationship with you.

01:35:15 with you. just deeply shocking and more shocking for his wife. You know, I felt more shocked for his wife to be honest and and his his real family than

01:35:26 honest and and his his real family than for myself for the reasons that I've outlined. I've you know, I felt that I'd moved on in a way um in some ways. Uh I actually remember I I there's an

01:35:38 I actually remember I I there's an occasion quite early on and I don't know if this was I don't know if this was when this his child was born but there was an occasion where he came home quite early on in our relationship or came

01:35:49 early on in our relationship or came back to my flat and he was very hyped and um he

01:35:57 and um he said that something nearly blew at work they were fitting an oven in some flats and um he was and they nearly it nearly

01:36:08 and um he was and they nearly it nearly blew. They nearly made the wrong connection with these wires and it nearly blew. Um but everything was okay. And I can't help but wonder if that was that day.

01:36:19 that day. Um, you say in your witness statement at paragraphs 10.17 and 10.18 that you would like to know if um, you were being

01:36:30 would like to know if um, you were being monitored um, like Helen Steel was when she was trying to trace her deceiver and you find it hard to believe that all your research and inquiries, particularly at the passport office in DVLA,

01:36:41 DVLA, hadn't triggered a hostile inquiry or some other form of risk assessment. And that's something you still wonder today. Yeah.

01:36:49 Yeah. Um, just dealing with um, finding and confronting uh, Mark Jenner then I just want to ask you a little bit about that. Um, you deal with this at paragraphs 10.23 to

01:37:00 deal with this at paragraphs 10.23 to 10.25 of your statement. You say that in August 2019 you traced uh, Jenna to a hotel at the end of the Penline way by monitoring his Facebook

01:37:11 Penline way by monitoring his Facebook page.

01:37:12 page. And at 10.26 26. You you say you telephoned him and spoke to him. Yeah.

01:37:18 Yeah. Um what was the purpose of of calling him to to speak to him? What what what did you hope to get out of that call? Well, it was 19 years on. I was uh he'd

01:37:29 Well, it was 19 years on. I was uh he'd posted on the Penine Way Walkers group that he was doing this walk for the first time on his own. He Yeah. On his own. He did it when he was 16 apparently with a friend. Um and uh I said to my

01:37:41 with a friend. Um and uh I said to my family or to my husband, I know where the Penline Way Walk starts. Shall I go up there? And he said, "Yeah, go up there." But it was actually our kids were away for that at

01:37:52 actually our kids were away for that at that point. They were on in a summer camp and they were coming back the next day and I and we were all going on holiday together the following Monday, I think. And I just thought, I'm not going to go up there. It's But I did keep an

01:38:04 to go up there. It's But I did keep an eye on what he was doing. the purpose of phone and when I did eventually phone him again I consulted with my family this is where he is he's just posted he's staying in this hotel

01:38:15 just posted he's staying in this hotel shall I ring and they all said yeah absolutely um the purpose was to get some answers uh it was the first time I tracked him down and knew where he was in such a way

01:38:27 down and knew where he was in such a way that it it was a phone call you know I wasn't going to wasn't going to doorstep him um but I wanted some answers I hadn't you know he just disappeared 19 years earlier. Um, and he obviously knew

01:38:41 years earlier. Um, and he obviously knew we brought a civil case. He'd had the other thing, you know, we brought this claim in 2011. I think my first press um, appearance was I think about Mark in

01:38:52 um, appearance was I think about Mark in 2013.

01:38:53 2013. I think I'd said in several different places publicly um and particularly after I think at the press conference after the Metropolitan Police made their public apology to me. I said I welcome this apology from the

01:39:06 I said I welcome this apology from the Metropolitan Police. I've yet to receive an apology from Mark Jenner. And so, you know, he knew that and there was he knew who our solicitors were. He had his own lawyers. He could have reached out and

01:39:17 lawyers. He could have reached out and sent a message through his lawyers had he chosen to had he had any kind of remorse at all. and he hadn't. So, I just thought it was an opportunity that was too good to miss. Um, did he apologize to you in that

01:39:29 Um, did he apologize to you in that call?

01:39:30 call? He did not. Not that I can remember. Afterwards, I told Harriet Wistri about it and she said, "Did he apologize?" And I said, "I'm not sure he did." And she said, "I think you'd remember if he had."

01:39:42 think you'd remember if he had." Yes. Um, did did he express any kind of remorse for what he had done? Well, um the the exchange was the first exch part of the exchange. Uh

01:39:56 he was he just I said, "Do you not rec He said, "Who's that?" I said, "Do you not recognize my voice?" And he said, "How the do you know where I am?"

01:40:07 "How the do you know where I am?" Which was gratifying. Um and did he express any remorse? No. But he began I said, "How are you?" Much to

01:40:18 he began I said, "How are you?" Much to my husband's deep irritation afterwards and anger, I have to say. But I did. And I said, "How are you?" Because I really wanted him to talk. I did not want to just scream at him and put the phone him he would have put the phone down. So I

01:40:30 he would have put the phone down. So I asked how he was and he told me and it's been terrible for him. Absolutely awful. He's lost everything he said. More self-pity. Uh no, really it's really been bad. He's

01:40:43 Uh no, really it's really been bad. He's lost everything. you know, he's he I mean, I'm sure he'll tell you next week. It's been really bad for him. So, I I don't know what in a way your question, you know, what did I expect? I kind of

01:40:55 you know, what did I expect? I kind of it's more what I hoped than what I expected. And and it's a reminder, I think, that when you're dealing with people who um are professional liars and compulsive liars, um that's really what

01:41:06 compulsive liars, um that's really what you're going to get. Although sometimes you're going to get bits of truth as well, which makes it even more um confusing. H how did you feel um after that call?

01:41:18 H how did you feel um after that call? Um I I was pleased that I'd made the call, but if only for that first moment where he didn't, you know, how do you know where I am? And he probably thought I was standing outside the hotel in North Umbrea. So I was I was delighted

01:41:31 North Umbrea. So I was I was delighted that I'd done it. It felt like a you know, one of those moments. Um, you know, I think I think Jackie may have said when she gave her evidence about Bob Lambert, it's a bit like a

01:41:43 about Bob Lambert, it's a bit like a Chinese meal. You know, you feel full afterwards, but you're not satisfied. The point is we're never going to be satisfied um with with these men. I know that now. I think um but

01:41:55 that now. I think um but he he said, I mean, one of the things he said at one point when I because I said, well, you I want to talk to you. I've got a load of questions for you. And they're questions that are not about policing tactics. They're more about,

01:42:06 policing tactics. They're more about, you know, did you really like my brother or do you remember that they're those kind of personal questions some of them or, you know, I don't know, different questions. Um, and I just

01:42:19 questions. Um, and I just I realize, you know, you're just I'm not going to get I'm not going to get those answers.

01:42:24 answers. Um, you afterwards you sent him a message on Facebook. You set it out at paragraph 10.31 of your statement. He never replied to that. No, but he didn't deliver. But I did say to

01:42:35 but he didn't deliver. But I did say to him afterwards cuz I said if I want to meet He said he can meet after the inquiry. He said I I want closure too and and I can meet you after the inquiry that he called a tribunal. Which did

01:42:46 that he called a tribunal. Which did make me wonder if there was also a tribunal that he was involved in. But assuming he was just he's talking about this, he said, "I can meet you after the inquiry." And I said, "Well, how would I get in touch with you?" He said, "Well,

01:42:57 get in touch with you?" He said, "Well, through Facebook. You know, you've got my Facebook." And I said, "Well, as far as I'm concerned, you're going to delete this account after this conversation." And he said, "I won't. I promise I won't." And he hasn't. He didn't. But he didn't reply. And he didn't in any way,

01:43:09 didn't reply. And he didn't in any way, you know, we've made a documentary since then where I said again that he didn't apologize and he still hasn't apologized. Um, just looking then a little bit more about the impact this has had on you.

01:43:21 about the impact this has had on you. Um, finding out that Mark Jenner was an undercover police officer. Firstly, what impact has that had on your political activity?

01:43:29 activity? [clears throat] Well, until about 2011, it involved me stepping back. I mean, I I had a moment, you know, I had this sort of this realization or sense that everything was

01:43:41 realization or sense that everything was controlled, that if if if Mark was involved in the Colin Roach Center, um, and John Dyn was involved in, you know, the groups Helen was involved in,

01:43:52 know, the groups Helen was involved in, then the likelihood was that every single left-wing group was going to be surveyed by these undercover officers. And therefore, what's the point of doing anything because, you know, they're watching you all the time.

01:44:04 watching you all the time. And what about the impacts um of finding out on your personal relationships? So there was psychological impact at the time um that I've mentioned the

01:44:15 time um that I've mentioned the delusions, the paranoia. I became very hardened and very angry. Um I think also there was a physical impact which I forget about every time and it is not in my statement but and it was also my own

01:44:27 my statement but and it was also my own gullibility but he Mark had um he had a cold saw and he and I said that's a cold saw and he said no it's not and I kissed him and I've now got cold sors because of him. Um so that's a physical thing.

01:44:39 of him. Um so that's a physical thing. It had an impact on my mother on on being a mother. I was a much older mother than I wanted to be. Um it also impacted on um the type of mother I was which I think actually benefited my

01:44:51 which I think actually benefited my children in some ways but it didn't benefit my career. I was very conscious of the the notion of abandonment of being having been abandoned. I didn't want to abandon my children. I didn't want to separate from my children. I

01:45:03 want to separate from my children. I mean I think I had a form of separation anxiety because you know in my head bad things can really happen. Um and that had an impact on my career because it meant that I took about I don't know

01:45:15 meant that I took about I don't know five six years where I didn't work. So it's very difficult to make those years up in terms of experience. Um, and in terms of my relationships, I think there

01:45:27 terms of my relationships, I think there was one very good friend I had during those years who could not, she had a child, a very young child, and I remember going to see her soon after Mark had disappeared and I had my theories literally with files that I

01:45:38 theories literally with files that I wanted to go through. I wasn't interested in her child and she was very hurt by that. And that's a friend who I lost and I I regret that. Um, it's had an impact on my partner, a big impact on

01:45:50 an impact on my partner, a big impact on my partner who is unable to come here today. He's unable to come and see uh Mark give evidence because he feels Oh, sorry. He feels he'll heckle and shout. He doesn't understand how people can sit

01:46:01 He doesn't understand how people can sit here and not shout out and get very angry. Um, it's probably had an impact on my children in a way. They've had to live with with this. And I've had to do that double thing of yes, if you're in

01:46:13 that double thing of yes, if you're in trouble, you have to trust the police, but actually look what the police are doing. And I think one of the other things um in terms of my children as well and myself and all my other

01:46:24 well and myself and all my other relationships because of this lying thing, I've got a ridiculously high standard of the need for truth, which in the real world is quite difficult, particularly when

01:46:36 quite difficult, particularly when you've got teenage children. you know, apparently they need to lie sometimes or they need to keep things from you. Um, and I struggle with that. And also for myself, I, you know, as I say, in the real world, sometimes you can't tell

01:46:48 real world, sometimes you can't tell every bit of truth all the time. And I I I I struggle with that. Um, and so there's many there's many, you know, lasting impact. The other thing I would

01:46:59 lasting impact. The other thing I would say about the impact is um because as I've said I think Mark has sadistic tendencies that until today really and I'm prepared to talk about this today but generally I don't want to talk about

01:47:11 but generally I don't want to talk about the impact because I don't want to I don't want to give him and I don't want to give the police the um sadistic gratification the individuals the gratification that they have harmed us

01:47:23 gratification that they have harmed us to that extent. you know, women like me are survivors and it's a bit like in the civil claim. To get a civil claim, you have to admit damage. Um, and to for the inquiry, I understand you have to

01:47:34 inquiry, I understand you have to understand the impact, but it's it's not something that I feel comfortable talking about. Thank you. Um, just in terms of your husband, I think you've talked about having had difficulty in trusting

01:47:45 having had difficulty in trusting people. You are now married and as you've said, you have children. Um I think though uh the the fact that your husband was a childhood friend, someone you had known and was part of your

01:47:57 you had known and was part of your community Yeah. growing up was something which enabled you to form an intimate relationship with him because you could be absolutely certain that he was who he said he was. Is that right? Absolutely.

01:48:08 Absolutely. So that's affected you um in that way in that relationship even. Yeah, very much so. Um I is there anything else you'd like to say about the impact um of of finding out um and

01:48:20 the impact um of of finding out um and of having been in the deceitful relationship with Mark Jenner you think the chair should know before I move on? No, I think I've covered those. Thank you. Um I just want to look at um

01:48:31 Thank you. Um I just want to look at um some of the uh uh inaccuracies in you point out in Mark Jenner's um witness statement. Uh and you deal with these at paragraph 11 of your statement. So at

01:48:42 paragraph 11 of your statement. So at 11.2 two. Um, you have the the cipher list there. Um, there's a privacy redaction, but you say that privacy had never lived at your flat. Um, you you

01:48:53 never lived at your flat. Um, you you know who's under the um redaction. Is that right? Yeah.

01:48:57 Yeah. Um, 11.3 you say you were never in an intimate relationship with Bert. Is that right?

01:49:04 right? I'm not. No. And at paragraph 11.4, for [snorts] uh everything about Mark Jenner living with Bert or your flat being his as in Bert's [clears throat] is complete fiction. Is that right?

01:49:17 is complete fiction. Is that right? Yeah.

01:49:20 Yeah. Um at paragraph 11.6 uh about Jenna moving in with and again there's a privacy reduction. You can check the cipher list for for that paragraph 11.6.

01:49:32 paragraph 11.6. Um he is everything about him moving in with that person is fiction. Mark Jenner was back living with you at the point uh in time um that this concerns. We can

01:49:43 in time um that this concerns. We can look at the document. It's MPS074 9473

01:49:48 9473 and it's at tab B4 sir of the bundle. [clears throat]

01:49:58 [snorts]

01:50:05 So this he was living at your address which is um redacted out there but is in the middle of the um middle of the page. Um that can be taken down. Thank you.

01:50:17 Um that can be taken down. Thank you. [clears throat] Um at paragraph 11.8 date, you deal with the suggestion um that Helen Steel might take over as the Colin Roach C Center's

01:50:29 take over as the Colin Roach C Center's full-time worker, and you say that seems an incredible suggestion. She wasn't a member. She was an anarchist, and you doubt that Mark Jenner ever met her. Is that right?

01:50:40 that right? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I don't remember him meeting her. Um you point out that the Colin Roach Center closed in October 1998. So when he says he reported on the center

01:50:52 he says he reported on the center throughout his um entire deployment, that's wrong because his deployment ended much later. Um I want to then ask you um a little bit about S.

01:51:04 bit about S. Yeah.

01:51:05 Yeah. Um S was Mark Jenner's wife at the time he was deployed and in a relationship with you, now his ex-wife. Yeah. Um, at paragraph 12.7, you detail

01:51:16 Yeah. Um, at paragraph 12.7, you detail how s made contact um, through your solicitors in 2016 and you met up. Is that right? Yeah.

01:51:24 Yeah. And 12.8 you say and you have since met many times. Is that right? Can you describe the relationship between the two of you

01:51:35 between the two of you now? I mean, you'll hear from her tomorrow. She's an incredible woman. She's um she's a woman of deep integrity. She's extremely kind. She's very

01:51:46 She's extremely kind. She's very private.

01:51:48 private. Um and you know and and she's been absolutely right. We met she's been right about kind of not sharing too many stories. You know, we've we haven't talked in great detail

01:52:00 we've we haven't talked in great detail about um

01:52:03 about um the way he did it, if you like. like you know we know I know that he went home when he when he told me he was going to work he was going home and when he told

01:52:14 work he was going home and when he told her he was going to work he was coming home with me so we've we've talked about that um there are some you know strange things in terms of some coincidences

01:52:27 things in terms of some coincidences about

01:52:29 about some gifts that he gave me and I think he gave her but I'll leave her to talk about some of that. Um, it's it's one of the weirdest, not weirdest, but it's

01:52:40 the weirdest, not weirdest, but it's kind of one of the more unusual elements of this. And I wish I wish as I wish more of the wives I understand why they're not, but I wish more of the wives of these officers were brave enough like to come forward and testify

01:52:53 enough like to come forward and testify to this inquiry because they have um, you know, their story is is is the mirror image if you like of ours. I mean that they they they are also the victims of the

01:53:04 are also the victims of the institutionalized misogyny and sexism that we were victim to in some ways even worse because they met some of these managers. They knew some of these people in the police hierarchy. They also were

01:53:15 in the police hierarchy. They also were exploited and manipulated and um you know

01:53:22 know what can I say? She's a lovely woman. Thank you. Um, finally then at paragraph 12.5 of your statement, you say, "I believe collective and institutionalized objectification,

01:53:34 objectification, dehumanization and abuse of women was fundamental to the undercover officer's success in the field. I hope the inquiry will recognize this and make a finding of institutionalized sexism and misogyny

01:53:45 of institutionalized sexism and misogyny in the police." Is there anything else you'd like to say about um your views on that? No, I mean you know again you know that I've got a little statement to read which does cover some of that. So it's covered in

01:53:57 cover some of that. So it's covered in that I think. Thank you. Um those are all the questions I have for you. I know that you have a a statement you would like to read. Um now is your opportunity to do so. [snorts and clears throat]

01:54:11 So

01:54:18 um so I hope you'll indulge me if as an exen English teacher I begin my final remarks with a quote from a Shakespearean revenge tragedy.

01:54:30 Shakespearean revenge tragedy. In act three, scene one of Titus Andronicus, after Titus has learned his daughter had been raped, her hands cut off and her tongue cut out, he discovers

01:54:41 off and her tongue cut out, he discovers his two sons have been murdered. Encouraging revenge, his brother Marcus says to him, "Now is the time to storm. Why art thou still?"

01:54:53 Why art thou still?" To which Titus replies, "Ha ha ha." Then Marcus asks, "Why dust thou laugh? It fits not with this hour." And Titus's

01:55:06 fits not with this hour." And Titus's answer, "Why? I have not another tear to shed."

01:55:12 shed." I quote this exchange in the context of today's evidence to introduce some themes that I hope help unpack the complexity of emotion involved in being part of this shocking undercover

01:55:24 part of this shocking undercover policing scandal and the ongoing investigation into finding the truth. It illustrates a moment where laughter meets despair, a sensation with which

01:55:35 meets despair, a sensation with which I'm all too familiar. It's through humor and laughter that I and many of the other women affected have coped with much of the horror of

01:55:46 have coped with much of the horror of our experience. Whether it's mocking the James Bond fantasies of these secret policemen or giving them rude nicknames or deriding their fictional reporting or their grade

01:56:00 their fictional reporting or their grade D Ole style creative writing of love letters and poetry, we minimize their emotional impact and cut their grandiose self-importance down to size.

01:56:12 self-importance down to size. I identify also with not having another tear to shed. The time for crying about what Mark Jenner did to me has long passed.

01:56:22 passed. Like Titus's daughter, Levvenia, women like me were violated. By contrast, however, we have not been silenced.

01:56:33 silenced. We have collectively transformed our pain into organizing to expose and evidence this state sponsored wrongdoing. This work is not yet finished. The law

01:56:44 This work is not yet finished. The law has not changed. But we have come a very very long way from the time I was whispering to my friend my paranoid suspicions in the back garden. I am deeply grateful for the support,

01:56:57 I am deeply grateful for the support, solidarity and brain power of the women involved in our group police spies out of lives, our wider campaigning partners and our legal team. Thanks also to my

01:57:08 and our legal team. Thanks also to my friends and family, many of whom have come along today and who've been considered collateral intrusion by the Metropolitan Police. Like many others who have been

01:57:20 Like many others who have been personally impacted by these state sponsored conmen, I have followed the inquiry closely from the outset. And with each evidential hearing that passes, I have become ever more

01:57:32 passes, I have become ever more convinced of the need for legislative change, particularly to the laws on consent and to those governing covert human intelligence sources. The

01:57:43 human intelligence sources. The inquiry's recommendations will be its legacy. I hope our voices will be listened to when these recommendations are drafted. Sex by deception must become a criminal

01:57:54 Sex by deception must become a criminal offense. The Covert Human Intelligence Sources Criminal Conduct Act or CHIS Act must be overhauled. Immunity from prosecution must be

01:58:06 Immunity from prosecution must be replaced with a defense. There must be more judicial oversight of authorizations. And there simply must be limits on what crimes undercover operatives can be

01:58:18 crimes undercover operatives can be authorized to commit. No torture, no rape, no murder. It's hard to believe it even needs saying. Despite what we've been told, the Human

01:58:29 Despite what we've been told, the Human Rights Act is not protecting women like me. So, these limits must be explicit. The institutionalized sexism, misogyny, and racism in the police evidenced by

01:58:41 and racism in the police evidenced by these deployments must be identified, and those who have received honors and commendations for their work must have them removed. This is what being held to

01:58:54 them removed. This is what being held to account looks like. What has happened to us at the hands of these onduty taxpayerf funed narcissistic cosplaying manipulative men

01:59:06 narcissistic cosplaying manipulative men must never happen to other women again. To return to Titus Andronicus, unlike him, I do not seek revenge on those who have harmed us, but unfiltered truth and

01:59:20 have harmed us, but unfiltered truth and genuine remorse. I listened to the evidence last month from the Black Family Justice Campaign spied on and was disturbed by the intergenerational trauma recounted by

01:59:32 intergenerational trauma recounted by family members testifying. Similarly, the evidence of families of deceased children whose identities were stolen.

01:59:42 stolen. I was made all too aware of the responsibility of having contributed to bringing this scandal to public attention. Had we not done so, these berieved

01:59:54 Had we not done so, these berieved families would not have been required to relive in this public setting their most private grief yet again. But unlike the numerous police officers

02:00:07 But unlike the numerous police officers who have given the weak excuse that none of these documents were ever supposed to have been made public, arguing that if secrecy had been maintained, we would

02:00:18 secrecy had been maintained, we would all have been saved this pain. I think it's better that we do know about the spying we've subject been subjected to. The way to write this wrong is not to

02:00:30 The way to write this wrong is not to cover it up further, but to come clean. So, I have one plea. If all the undercover officers and their managers who are yet to testify,

02:00:43 managers who are yet to testify, starting with Mark Jenner next Monday, if they want to show they are truly sorry rather than simply say they are, they must dig down into their memories.

02:00:56 they must dig down into their memories. Be honest about their failings. Unearth buried consciences and tell the whole truth. No more excuses.

02:01:08 truth. No more excuses. No more amnesia. No more covering each other's backs. No more secrets and lies.

02:01:30 Sir, may I ask you to rise for 5 minutes while we check the um rule 10 and re-examination? [clears throat and cough] Um certainly you may need longer than 5 minutes, but you may have as long as is

02:01:41 minutes, but you may have as long as is needed. Um, at this stage in the proceedings, as I'm sure you know by now, uh, we break for a while so that anyone who may have questions to put to council for the inquiry can do so and

02:01:53 council for the inquiry can do so and she can, if she thinks it right, put them to you. May I ask you a question about the statement? Would you mind uh providing a copy of it to us? Of course.

02:02:04 Of course. Thank you. Then um I'll rise for at least 5 minutes but however long is reasonably needed. Thank you. And also it is uh time for a break.

02:02:15 time for a break. Time for the uh transcribers to have a break as well. So I think should we take 15? Uh well at least 10. Great.

02:19:31 Yes, sir. Thank you for the time. There are in fact no rule 10 questions and no re-examination for the witness. So um that concludes um the proceedings with this witness today.

02:19:42 this witness today. Thank you. May I thank you personally for the very great trouble to which you have gone and for the live oral evidence which you've

02:19:55 for the live oral evidence which you've given to me. Forgive me, I must speak up. I will repeat what I've said. May I thank you personally for all the trouble to which you have

02:20:06 for all the trouble to which you have gone and for the live oral evidence which you have given to me. I hope I may say without offense to you or any other witness who's had to go

02:20:17 or any other witness who's had to go through the same task that the humor and insight which your which you showed in your evidence in no way diminished its

02:20:31 your evidence in no way diminished its force.

02:20:34 force. I

02:20:35 I listened with care to the statement that you read at the end and which I will now have a copy of.

02:20:50 I'm not so sure that

02:20:58 what Titus Andronicus said is exactly right, but it combines um [snorts] human characteristics that uh I do have well in mind. Uh,

02:21:12 that uh I do have well in mind. Uh, as you probably know, I am not going to conclude the inquiry. I am merely uh reporting on what happened in the Metropolitan Police in the SDS, but I

02:21:24 Metropolitan Police in the SDS, but I will not refrain from expressing uh an opinion about what happened there when I report.

02:21:32 report. Thank you. Thank you, sir. We will meet again tomorrow at 10:00. Thank you, sir. All right.