"Alison" - Deceived by HN15 Mark Jenner for Nearly 5 Years

Full transcript

00:31:15 almost every witness has um slipped up and uh it bound to happen. Don't worry about it at all. Okay. Thank you, sir. um in terms of um

00:31:28 Okay. Thank you, sir. um in terms of um your activism and your involvement with Mark Jenner um the undercover police officer.

00:31:35 officer. Um you say at paragraph 3.1 that um your activism I know you don't like the word but for semantically we'll we'll just use that for the moment. Um and his over overlapped only so far as the Colin

00:31:47 overlapped only so far as the Colin Roach Center or CRC is that right? That's right. Yeah. Um although you were supportive of his anti-fascist campaigning which I'll come to uh in a more detail a little later. Um can we

00:31:59 more detail a little later. Um can we just um talk about the Colin Roach Center then for a moment? Um at paragraph 33.2 you say you were a member of the Colin Roach Center from 1993 until it closed in 1998. Is that right?

00:32:11 until it closed in 1998. Is that right? Yeah, I think so. You were introduced to the center by a friend uh and her boyfriend who we won't name. um your involvement varied uh over

00:32:22 name. um your involvement varied uh over time. Um how was the Colin Roach Center founded?

00:32:28 founded? My understanding was that it was a combination of the Hackne Community Defense Association which Dr. Graeme Smith was a lead member of or a founding member um and the trade union support

00:32:40 member um and the trade union support unit that Mark Metaf worked for and that I believe had been funded by the GLC but then lost its funding. Um, and I think it was a combination of those two organizations.

00:32:51 organizations. And the the Colin Rope Center was named after a black man who had died in contact with the police at Stoke Newington Police Station. Is that right? Yeah.

00:33:01 Yeah. Um, why did you join? What was your motivation in joining? Um I had recently a couple of years earlier about a year earlier I had come out of a long-term

00:33:12 earlier I had come out of a long-term relationship and with deep irony my part my then partner um had the same political beliefs as I did uh but we never were involved in any activity and

00:33:24 never were involved in any activity and he had previously been a member of the National Council for Civil Liberties and he said the problem is if you get involved in any activity the states are all over you. After I left him, I

00:33:38 all over you. After I left him, I decided now was the time to get involved in political activity and actually uh um one of my friends was a member. Uh I went along to a meeting and I was very impressed by the the people around the

00:33:50 impressed by the the people around the table. I felt that it was different from some of the um more dogmatic groups that I'd uh people I was friends with, but the more dogmatic groups that I'd worked

00:34:01 the more dogmatic groups that I'd worked with in the union and when I was a student.

00:34:06 student. Uh you mentioned Dr. Graeme Smith and Mark Metaf. They were key figures in the Colin Road Center. Were they essentially founding members? I believe so. Um what was your relationship with both of

00:34:18 what was your relationship with both of them like? Were you were you close? Yeah, Graeme less so. Um yeah, I was quite close to Mark Meov. Yeah. You say um that attendance at um CRC

00:34:32 You say um that attendance at um CRC meetings was usually of about between six and 15 people, both members and non-members. Um was there a formal membership of the Colin Roach Center? [snorts]

00:34:42 [snorts] I mean, these are better questions asked to Mark Metaf and Graeme Smith, but I think there was a formal membership because we paid membership dues. There was we there was rented space. There was printing costs sometimes of leaflets.

00:34:54 printing costs sometimes of leaflets. Um, so I think I was a paid member. So, there would have been a membership list. You say at 3.7 that there were meetings a few times a month. Is that right?

00:35:05 a few times a month. Is that right? Probably more often than that actually. It felt when I think when I thought back at the time after I mean it felt like quite a lot. I don't think I necessarily went to everything, but um there was always a lot going on. You know,

00:35:16 always a lot going on. You know, leftwing people can make themselves very busy.

00:35:19 busy. Uh you say that the CRC was run along generally democratic lines. Is that right? What what do you mean by that? There were votes for things. There was no I I I mean, you know, I could be corrected on this, but my memory is

00:35:31 corrected on this, but my memory is there was no uh formal governance structure. There was we weren't a political party. I mean, that was the you know, that's what attracted me to it. It was there were members who were Marxists, anarchists, socialists. There

00:35:43 Marxists, anarchists, socialists. There was a member who was a uh there was somebody who was a member of the Labour Party who was very active at the center. And would you have considered yourself an active member of the Common Roach Center?

00:35:52 Center? Yes. Um [clears throat] um you you particularly comment at 3.18 of your witness statement that um Mark Jenner is wrong when he asserts in his

00:36:03 Jenner is wrong when he asserts in his witness statement at paragraph 212 that you were not already active at the CRC when he met you. Is that right? Yeah.

00:36:11 Yeah. Um you say you were an active member. I think so. Yes. I mean, look, you know, yes, it depends what you mean by active, but it's a stretch to say if you're turning up at meetings and you're taking

00:36:22 turning up at meetings and you're taking minutes and your mom's typing up um, you know, various documents from meetings, I think that kind of makes you a fairly active member. Um, what would you describe as the aims

00:36:35 Um, what would you describe as the aims and objectives of the Colin Roach Center?

00:36:38 Center? Um, I think it was a community center that was a space for campaigning for local people in the community. I think a big part of it was monitoring police

00:36:49 big part of it was monitoring police corruption. There had been um a a a scandal at Stoke Newington Police Station, I think Operation Jackpot. Um and that was where uh police officer

00:37:01 and that was where uh police officer corrupt police officers um were exposed and um it was the center was there to support local people who had suffered at the hands of the police but it was also

00:37:13 the hands of the police but it was also a campaigning center for other groups. I remember there was a um a lesbian and gay group that I think used the center for meetings. Um was it involved in uh strengthening

00:37:25 Um was it involved in uh strengthening workers collective rights? Yeah, there was a strong trade union um position as well and sometimes motions would come to the the center and you know members would be invited to take those motions

00:37:37 would be invited to take those motions back to union groups where appropriate and challenging racism. Absolutely. Challenging racism. I mean that's the subtext of the police abuse really in Hackne. And those were particular causes that

00:37:50 And those were particular causes that were and and indeed maybe are important to you. Is that Yeah. Um, was the CRC affiliated with any other groups? So, affiliation came a bit like I mean

00:38:02 So, affiliation came a bit like I mean my the actual years are a bit of a blur, but yes, the Connie Roach Center, we were way too small to kind of organize our own anti-fascist activity, but there was a strong um we took a strong

00:38:13 was a strong um we took a strong anti-fascist position. If you remember in 1993, I know this has already been talked about in other witnesses uh evidence, um Derek Beacon was elected as a local counselor for the BMP. And so it

00:38:24 a local counselor for the BMP. And so it was a time where people were you know worried about the rise of fascism and so we um had delegates who we affiliated as an organization to anti-fascist action

00:38:35 an organization to anti-fascist action to AFA and uh Mark became the delegate who went to those APA meetings. That's Mark Jenner. Mark Jenner. Yes. So we're because

00:38:46 So we're because as well we'll just be careful who we're talking about. Um you I don't think you personally attended the um anti-fascist action meetings or demonstrations. Is

00:38:57 action meetings or demonstrations. Is that right? That's right. And why was that? Well um I think I say in my witness statement I think the it was it was NAF was quite a macho group. You know there

00:39:08 was quite a macho group. You know there were quite it was mainly men not exclusively but it was mainly men. Um, I support

00:39:15 support uh I support the idea [clears throat] of disrupting fascist activity and I support the idea of um stopping fascists organizing and

00:39:26 um stopping fascists organizing and spreading their hate. And my understanding was that AFA did that. But uh I have got no stomach for violence or a confrontation. And it's

00:39:37 violence or a confrontation. And it's it's but I'm very grateful for the people who are prepared to to do that work, who are prepared to stand up to their bullying. Fascism is predicated on fear and brutality.

00:39:49 fear and brutality. And um for for the the people not just in a but you know the anti-fascists who were prepared to stand up to those people I felt deserved deserve support.

00:40:00 people I felt deserved deserve support. I think my role would it wasn't but you know come the revolution my role will be making the tea. Let's just put it that way. [laughter] Thank you. Um, [clears throat] you've

00:40:11 Thank you. Um, [clears throat] you've talked about how involved you were in the Colin Roach Center. You attended regular meetings. You have mentioned sometimes taking the minutes. You would participate in votes on decisions,

00:40:22 participate in votes on decisions, I think. So, yeah. Uh, and would you say you voiced your opinions um within the center within those meetings and particularly perhaps on education?

00:40:33 on education? Definitely on education I would and young people um I would have voiced my opinions. I don't think I I don't think I proposed many mo if anything I don't think I proposed many ideas but you know

00:40:45 think I proposed many ideas but you know I like to voice an opinion. Yeah. Um I think you've said in your witness statement that you would um try to attend activities such as u pickets or

00:40:56 attend activities such as u pickets or benefits uh gigs that sort of thing. Is that right? Yeah. Um, so you would describe yourself as an active participant, an active member of the Colin Roach Center, certainly from when

00:41:08 Colin Roach Center, certainly from when it when it started through into um the mid to late 199 1990s. Yeah. And when I was with Mark between 95 and sort of 97, I think I stepped

00:41:22 95 and sort of 97, I think I stepped back in sort of the end of 96 97, but for that time it was part of what we did together as well. So if you know he would have gone to things that I didn't go to um but certainly Connie wrote

00:41:35 go to um but certainly Connie wrote center meetings we would have gone to together and we went to the pub with everybody afterwards. So his claim that I've mentioned briefly at paragraph 212 of his statement that you weren't active

00:41:46 of his statement that you weren't active in the CRC when he became involved in 1995

00:41:50 1995 and that that's the reason he didn't report on you. What do you say about that statement? I say that's nonsense. Um and and can you expand on that? Why do you think he's he's made that claim?

00:42:04 do you think he's he's made that claim? Um, my only explanation for that really is that he's trying to write me out of the report. I feel like he he's trying to sanitize um his evidence

00:42:17 he's trying to sanitize um his evidence and sanitize and rewrite, you know, rewrite history really. I think I don't I don't know how he can seriously argue that I was not an

00:42:28 he can seriously argue that I was not an active member. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Um, you mentioned in your witness statement your diaries from 1994,95 and 1995 and 96 particularly summarize

00:42:40 and 1995 and 96 particularly summarize the the types of events you went to. And I just want to look at those briefly, please. It's um UCPI 37890. It's a tab A2 of your bundle, sir.

00:42:54 It's a tab A2 of your bundle, sir. [cough and clears throat]

00:42:57 Um there we can see uh can't we 1994 and [snorts] through the months of September, October, November and December a range of events including

00:43:08 December a range of events including meetings but not um uh not exclusively. Yeah,

00:43:14 Yeah, there are events such as a bike ride, there are benefits, um marches and demonstrations and then there are also delegate uh and members meetings. Is

00:43:25 delegate uh and members meetings. Is that right? Yeah. And we see the number of entries um there some six eight uh or so per month through that year and into 1995.

00:43:37 month through that year and into 1995. Um do you think that if you had recorded those events that you had attended them? I think I if I'd recorded them they were either put in my diary when I was in a meeting and somebody said we're doing

00:43:49 meeting and somebody said we're doing this on that date. It doesn't mean I necessarily attended it but it does mean that I was at a meeting where that date was arranged. For many of them, I know I was there. And for others, it could have been that

00:44:01 And for others, it could have been that I had it in my diary because it meant Mark was going. I see. Um, you say in your witness statement of paragraph 3.21 that you don't have the diaries for July 96 to

00:44:12 don't have the diaries for July 96 to August 1998. Um, and that they're missing.

00:44:16 missing. When did you discover that those diaries were missing? So, in April 2000 when Mark disappeared and then from about May 2000 or maybe earlier actually um when I started to

00:44:29 earlier actually um when I started to suspect that he was not who he said he was, I started to go over every memory and every detail and uh forensically

00:44:41 and every detail and uh forensically document a whole chronology of our time together. And it was at that point and I keep all my diaries. I mean, I still, you know, I've got all my diaries from when I I've got my diaries from, you

00:44:53 when I I've got my diaries from, you know, when I was in 13 and 14. I've got a lot of diaries. So, the fact that these two were not there with the others struck me as being quite suspicious

00:45:04 struck me as being quite suspicious and and so what suspicions do you hold about how they came to be missing? Well, when Mark disappeared, he was um you know, he he removed himself very cleanly. He lots of things went um and I

00:45:20 cleanly. He lots of things went um and I suspect strongly that he took these two diaries. He also also something that disappeared was one of the videos and it's only through because because I was I enjoyed doing the video editing I have

00:45:31 I enjoyed doing the video editing I have video logs um time timecoded logs of all the videos. So I've got timecoded logs of videos that I don't any longer have.

00:45:42 of videos that I don't any longer have. I don't know exactly why. I've got suspicions. One suspicion is this is the period when we went to Israel and that's the video that's been missing as well. So I know I had video of being in

00:45:54 So I know I had video of being in Israel. I remember Mark being I remember us both being stopped I think in hyper by the police for him speeding and I remember videoing that and I remember talk sort of joking about not I remember

00:57:00 Um, what sort of relationship at that time did you have with Mark Metaf? How close were you? I mean, we were comrades. We were like, you know, we were involved in the same

00:57:12 you know, we were involved in the same political group. I wouldn't say he was a close friend, but you know, he was an acquaint more than acquaintance. He was we worked closely together police for this quite closely.

00:57:24 this quite closely. How was Mark Jenner at that first meeting? What was his de demeanor and his behavior like? Like it was for most of the rest of the time. He was he was there to learn. He

00:57:35 time. He was he was there to learn. He was new to London. Um he said he was a joiner. He was from Burken Head. He'd come down to London from work. He was very affable. He was very understated.

00:57:47 very affable. He was very understated. not a showoff. Um, got on well with people, had a van which he used to, you know, he was very happy to drive people to the pub and

00:57:59 happy to drive people to the pub and anywhere else actually and take people home.

00:58:04 home. Do you remember talking to him at that first meeting? It's difficult to say if I remember at that very first meeting. Probably. Yeah, I think we went probably went around the group and probably introduced ourselves.

00:58:16 group and probably introduced ourselves. Um,

00:58:18 Um, I mean I know sometime after that I had a conversation with a woman in the group on the telephone about the fact that I fancied him and it did occur to me when I discovered who he was whether somebody

00:58:30 I discovered who he was whether somebody was listening to that conversation and had tipped him off. I don't know if that's the case but um I do I remember at that particular first meeting not definitely no but I definitely

00:58:43 definitely no but I definitely I definitely met him for the first time at the Colin Ro Center. You say at paragraph 4.5 of your witness statement that he started attending meetings regularly. Yeah.

00:58:53 Yeah. And attending social trips to the pub afterwards. Is that right? And he would offer people lifts in his van.

00:59:01 van. Is that right? Um and he seemed to make friends easily and soon became close with various people involved in the center. Is that your recollection now? Yeah.

00:59:12 Yeah. How did he behave um initially towards you in those um first meetings and first few weeks? I wouldn't I mean I don't believe that

00:59:23 I wouldn't I mean I don't believe that he made a beline for me. I don't believe that he kind of targeted me especially. Um he behaved towards me similarly to how he behaved towards everybody. He was

00:59:34 how he behaved towards everybody. He was pleasant. Um quite bashful. Uh you know he's not a man of that many words as you may find out next week. Um

00:59:48 words as you may find out next week. Um uh

00:59:49 uh he was he's a nice B. He was a he presented as a really nice bloke as a you know very practical um very capable um pretty unselfish

01:00:01 um pretty unselfish uh and yeah someone who was you know good to have on side and from a working-class background. And you know, if you know anything about the left, um, you get somebody from a working-class

01:00:13 you get somebody from a working-class background involved in leftwing politics and they're gold dust because suddenly they've got an authenticity that some of us maybe don't know. Uh, what did he tell you about his personal circumstances?

01:00:26 personal circumstances? Uh, they were very sad. His father uh had been killed, he told us, uh, by a drunk driver. Uh, and that meant that he never went over the drink drive limit. and he was always prepared to that's why

01:00:37 and he was always prepared to that's why he was very happy to drive people home. Um he was estranged from his mother who had remarried somebody called John he said um and he saw her very occasionally

01:00:50 said um and he saw her very occasionally but he had no relationship with his mother. He was basically brought up by his grandmother but she had died um a couple of years before. He had a brother called Tony who lived in Italy and

01:01:02 called Tony who lived in Italy and apparently no was it I think Italy. Rome I think. Yes. And worked for NATO. Um and that was it. He that was his family.

01:01:13 and that was it. He that was his family. Did it seem to you at the time that he was open about his family? He was open with that information. I mean if you probed more he was quite closed. Um he would say I remember on

01:01:27 closed. Um he would say I remember on one occasion I was asking about friends. So I've got you know I'm a Londoner and if you're a Londoner you kind of carry your friends with you if it's not it's different from moving to London I think.

01:01:38 different from moving to London I think. So I've got a lot of friends from childhood, teenage years, university, adulthood. Uh he didn't have that and uh he said that he grew apart from his friends. a lot of

01:01:51 he grew apart from his friends. a lot of his friends um it was different. He said it was different up north. Um many of his friends uh married early, someone went in the army um and he grew apart

01:02:03 went in the army um and he grew apart from them. Um did I think you say in your witness statement that with the benefit of hindsight you realize that he was deflecting a lot of questions about his

01:02:14 deflecting a lot of questions about his family or his personal circumstances. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, I can, you know, I I I watched after he left in those kind of very obsessive years, I watched and

01:02:25 very obsessive years, I watched and rewatched a lot of the video footage that I took of Mark, particularly with friends and family. And in some of that, you can see him doing that. You can see him deflecting, shutting down, ju the

01:02:38 him deflecting, shutting down, ju the sorts of things that other people, you know, sort just don't really do like [clears throat] just not answering sometimes and laughing something off. um but giving very little away.

01:02:49 very little away. But at the time you had absolutely no reason uh to doubt him at the time. I either you don't see those things. That's what being played looks like. Um or I felt you know you if

01:03:02 looks like. Um or I felt you know you if somebody's had a a a difficult upbringing, much more difficult than mine. You don't want to probe. It's it's hurtful. It's not something you're going to you know come on. I want to know

01:03:13 to you know come on. I want to know about your trauma. Like share it. Put it all on the table. share it. So for those early years, no, it wasn't something that I was going to dig into. I accepted what he said.

01:03:24 what he said. How did he come across in terms of uh the type of campaign issues that you and the Colin Roach Center were involved in? I mean, again, with hindsight, it's a very clever strategy. He he came over as

01:03:37 very clever strategy. He he came over as a bit of anu, a bit of a sort of um innocent abroad. He was down from Burken Head in, you know, that London and uh he was here to learn. He was he wasn't he

01:03:48 was here to learn. He was he wasn't he said he did a couple of A levels. He didn't go to university. Um he he wanted to find out more and that meant that he

01:03:59 to find out more and that meant that he was that's one of the things that was appealing was that he was not dogmatic about his politics. So he could kind of move from an initial interest in anarco syndicicalism and class war through to

01:04:12 syndicicalism and class war through to the colony roach center through to afer and red action um with a a narrative that that explained that because he was learning he was changing he was developing his his political awareness

01:04:24 developing his his political awareness and his political understanding. Yes. Thank you. Uh just then moving on to talk about your personal relationship with Mark Jenner. How did your

01:04:35 with Mark Jenner. How did your relationship develop in the weeks after you met him? He gave me a lift back from the the intimate relationship you mean? Yes. I mean how did the personal

01:04:48 Yes. I mean how did the personal intimate relationship begin? So I suppose I saw him more at meetings and we would go to the pub afterwards and I would chat to him and then on one occasion he gave me a lift home. I don't

01:05:00 occasion he gave me a lift home. I don't drive so I'm always very happy for a lift home. He gave me a lift home and he dropped everybody else off first. Um, and I asked him if he wanted to come

01:05:11 Um, and I asked him if he wanted to come in and he did. And uh, we slept together that night. And then in the morning, I remember him saying, and I know this is in my witness statement, but he said I said as he left, I said, um, do you want

01:05:24 said as he left, I said, um, do you want to do this again? And he said, do I have to make an appointment? Which I thought was like at the time I was like, what are you talking like as if you think I've got a different man here every night? Um, and then we spoke

01:05:39 here every night? Um, and then we spoke soon after that and then we arranged to go out for a meal and I remember asking him then about his attitude to monogamy because some some of the people I knew

01:05:50 because some some of the people I knew and were friends very good friends with uh were polyamorous and I wasn't. And he was like, "No, that's not for me. I'm absolutely monogamous." Um, and uh and then that was the

01:06:02 Um, and uh and then that was the beginning of our relationship and he lived very near to me. Um and he was basically certainly in those first few months he was there I don't know three four times a week maybe more.

01:06:14 know three four times a week maybe more. Um but pretty soon after he was there every night. He didn't officially move in until February 1996. And I know that because I had it in my diary. Um

01:06:28 because I had it in my diary. Um yeah and that was he then he was my you know in for the first year 18 months I considered him my boyfriend by kind of year 2 three he was I

01:06:42 by kind of year 2 three he was I considered him my my long-term partner with whom I expected to have a future. Um

01:06:49 Um there's a lot to unpick there. Can we can we go back to the to the beginning? And I just want to ask you some points of detail if you can remember them. Um, at paragraph 4.8 of your uh witness

01:07:02 Um, at paragraph 4.8 of your uh witness statement, you uh talk about him giving you a lift home and being the last one to be dropped off. You invited him in and he said yes. Um, did you also ask him if he wanted to

01:07:13 Um, did you also ask him if he wanted to come in for a joint? I did.

01:07:15 I did. And what did he say to that? He said yes. And did you and he indeed smoke? He did. He We smoked a lot of cannabis together. Yes.

01:07:24 Yes. I mean, not a lot. I mean, some that night, but over the years, Yes. way too much.

01:07:29 much. Thank Thank [laughter] you. At at paragraph 4.19, you talk about the rest of that evening, and you say you spent the rest of the evening together, you were talking, um,

01:07:41 evening together, you were talking, um, you were smoking and you were drinking whiskey. Is that right? Yeah. And um h how um how was that night in terms of how you were feeling about it?

01:07:52 it? Yeah, [snorts] it was great. I was very happy about it. Um you slept together. In other words, you had sex that night. Who who initiated that?

01:08:04 I don't know. Both of us. I can't I mean, of all the things I can blame him for, and there are many, I can't blame him for being predatory towards me. I think it was, you know, I I wanted to

01:08:18 think it was, you know, I I wanted to have sex and a relationship with him as much as he was exploiting and using me. Paragraph 4.20, you talk about the the

01:08:30 Paragraph 4.20, you talk about the the meal that you had at a restaurant the next weekend. Um, and that was when the conversation about monogamy happened. Um, and was it you who asked him about

01:08:41 Um, and was it you who asked him about monogamy? Yeah, definitely. Um, so he could have been in no doubt that that you were um only interested in a monogous relationship. Correct. Yeah.

01:08:52 Correct. Yeah. And he agreed to that. Yeah. He said he wasn't into polyory. It wasn't his thing. And I think that you do recall the date of um that particular meal as being the

01:09:04 of um that particular meal as being the 3rd of June 1995. Is that I think so. The 3rd of June 1995. I had a note in my diary. I was definitely seeing him that evening. I suspect that was when we went out for dinner. I don't

01:09:15 was when we went out for dinner. I don't know for sure that it was that was that date. It could have been earlier. If anything, it was earlier, not later. Thank you. Um, and so, um, just give us a little bit more detail about how the

01:09:26 a little bit more detail about how the relationship developed after that conversation. Um, how often did you see him after that? I mean, it it feels it felt like all the time. him and when he when he disappeared I remember saying to one of

01:09:38 disappeared I remember saying to one of my good friends he was here all the time wasn't he and she was like yes he was there all the time and did that start very quickly I think it did he here he he had I mean

01:09:50 I think it did he here he he had I mean we've heard about you know their douff um his uh bedsit um near where I lived was not anywhere I was going to stay let's put it that way he had he didn't

01:10:02 let's put it that way he had he didn't even have sheets he had a sleeping bag on the mattress on top of a there's probably a sheet on the mattress. Was there maybe I think so. And then a sleeping bag. There was a couple of pamphlet. It was like, you know, it had

01:10:15 pamphlet. It was like, you know, it had a shared bathroom. It smelt of cabbage. It was really just It was really not very pleasant at all. So

01:10:23 So you use the word groy. Yes, I would use the word groy. Yeah. Yeah. So from his point of view, why wouldn't he be my flat? My flat I mean it wasn't luxurious, but it was very comfortable. So if I was him, I would

01:10:37 comfortable. So if I was him, I would definitely be staying at my flat rather than his.

01:10:40 than his. At paragraph 4.21 of your statement, you say that within a few weeks, um, he stayed with you most nights. I think so. I think so. I mean, look, you know, I can't haven't got a crystal

01:10:52 you know, I can't haven't got a crystal ball going backwards. I can't. But that is certainly the sense that I've got that he was there all the time which is why it made sense for him to kind of officially move his stuff in because his

01:11:04 officially move his stuff in because his clothes, you know, he had stuff his clothes were not there I don't think until later in February the next year. So you talk about him formally as it

01:11:15 So you talk about him formally as it were moving in with you. Um and you date that to the 23rd of February 1996. So some what seven months or so six or

01:11:26 So some what seven months or so six or seven months or so after the relationship started. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, probably. And h how did how did that formal moving in um as it were? How did that come

01:11:38 in um as it were? How did that come about? Whose idea was it? Well, I think it was my I mean it was probably my idea. I mean, I'm almost sure it was my idea, but he was very happy to do so.

01:11:50 but he was very happy to do so. Yeah, it made absolute sense. He was there all the time anyway.

01:11:56 And what was your view of the relationship at that time? You you talked about him being your boyfriend. Yeah.

01:12:03 Yeah. Um what were your hopes and plans for the future for the relationship for your life with him? [snorts] I was I mean I can't put a date on when

01:12:14 I was I mean I can't put a date on when I told him I loved him. I don't know when that was, but at at some point, um, you know, probably a year and a half, two years in, I I'm sure I would have told him I loved him. And what did he say?

01:12:26 And what did he say? Well, again, I can't put a point where he I think, again, with hindsight, I think he was probably reticent to say that at the beginning. Um, but I put that down to his kind of quite closed

01:12:37 that down to his kind of quite closed demeanor and it was all a bit sloppy and like it wasn't really stuff that he would talk about. Um but certainly later on in the relationship he said he loved me.

01:12:49 me. Um he um gives an account of of your relationship in his uh witness statement at paragraph 212. Um so for your reference his witness

01:13:00 Um so for your reference his witness statement is UCPI 35283 and it's at tab A1 of his bundle. Um, he says that you're the only person he had a sexual relationship with while he was

01:13:11 a sexual relationship with while he was deployed undercover. As far as you're aware, is that true? As far as I'm aware, that is true. Yes. Um, did he use contraception?

01:13:22 Um, did he use contraception? Well, when we first started having sex, I was on the pill and he uh we he also used condoms and then at some point uh after then, I don't know when he we

01:13:36 after then, I don't know when he we stopped. He convinced me. I mean, again, it was the '9s, so it was like it was 10 years after the whole HIV um uh p uh

01:13:48 um uh p uh what's the next word? wasn't a pandemic, was it?

01:13:53 was it? We understand what you mean though. Um, anyway, he convinced me that he didn't have HIV and uh therefore or or any other sexually transmitted disease and so we didn't need to use condoms

01:14:04 and so we didn't need to use condoms anymore.

01:14:05 anymore. And do you recall that conversation now? I kind of do recall that. Yeah, I do. And um that was him uh convincing you, as you would say, not to use other

01:14:16 as you would say, not to use other contraception. Is that right? Yes. I mean, I realize now the he genuinely did know because he had children and they would have had those tests. So, I think he I think that was

01:14:28 tests. So, I think he I think that was genuine. But the fact that I was convinced by something without actually knowing how he knew is telling of his his um skills of persuasion.

01:14:40 his um skills of persuasion. Um, I want to ask you a little bit about the motivation for the relationship and I want to look at what you think about his motivation and what he said about that first, if I may. Um you deal with

01:14:52 that first, if I may. Um you deal with this at paragraph 4.34 um of your witness statement um where you discuss what he he says and his explanation for the motivation for

01:15:04 his explanation for the motivation for your nearly fiveyear relationship was that you had a landline telephone and knew a lot of people in Hackne. Um so your home made an ideal base for

01:15:16 Um so your home made an ideal base for him to continue his undercover operation. Yeah. And you say that's unconvincing. Yeah.

01:15:23 Yeah. Why do you say that? Everybody had a landline telephone in 1995. No one knew anything other than landline telephones in 1995. It's it's

01:15:34 landline telephones in 1995. It's it's complete nonsense. Um, I mean, I've got it. It's like I don't even know where to go with how ridiculous a suggestion that the reason

01:15:46 ridiculous a suggestion that the reason he had a five-year relationship with me is because he had I had a landline telephone and I knew a lot of people in Hackne.

01:15:53 Hackne. Yes. Uh, he says that his move into your home came about because various people in his target group, including Mark Metaf, uh, had been unable to contact

01:16:04 Metaf, uh, had been unable to contact him in his cover flat. And as a result, Mark Meetoff suggested that he move in that he Jenner moved in with he him Mark Metaf

01:16:14 Metaf um or another Colin Roach Center member. Uh and that would also have an additional benefit that he wouldn't have to pay so much rent. Uh Mark Jenner says

01:16:25 to pay so much rent. Uh Mark Jenner says he thought it wasn't sustainable to resist that suggestion when it was the obvious thing to do. And Mark Jenner claims that Mark Metaf suggested your home as being the one to move into.

01:16:37 home as being the one to move into. Um, what do you say about that? Well, it's the first I'd heard of it when I read this. I mean, there's a whole web of lies around where Mark

01:16:49 whole web of lies around where Mark Jenner was living during these years. Um, and this is, I think, part of that. Um, I was thinking about this last night and I was trying to remember were there

01:17:01 and I was trying to remember were there lots of phone calls on my landline for Mark Jenner, Mark Cassidy when we lived together like is did that, you know, did that sort of stack up that he did need that landline that that access to a

01:17:13 that landline that that access to a telephone because he was in constant demand?

01:17:16 demand? It just it's just not true. I mean, I know it's now difficult to look back and remember what life was like before we all had mobile phones, but somehow people made an arrangement in advance and they turned up and they were there.

01:17:28 and they turned up and they were there. Plus, he did also have a um there was a phone, a communal phone in his accommodation where he lived in that bedsit that was a shared phone. So,

01:17:41 bedsit that was a shared phone. So, what do you think his true motivation was?

01:17:45 was? Well, I think it's obvious. I think his true motivation was that it was um his relationship with me was about sexual gratification. It was about

01:29:41 mentioned

01:29:54 um seeing friends. What was your social life together like? Um vibrant. I I mean well I mean it was he he fitted in very nicely with my

01:30:06 he he fitted in very nicely with my social life. I mean I didn't he didn't bring much to the table in terms of um social life because he didn't have friends. He had these new friends in London. So there were like you know um

01:30:20 London. So there were like you know um some people were not many there were some people who were connected to the Colin Roach Center who we socialized with. Um but more broadly it was friends of mine my old friends that he liked and

01:30:33 of mine my old friends that he liked and who liked him. um he attended uh family gatherings. We'll come to some of the the detail of them um in a moment, but he attended um gatherings, events um with your close

01:30:46 gatherings, events um with your close family. Is that right? Yeah.

01:30:48 Yeah. Um can we just look at um one of the exhibits to your statement to look at the type of things um that he would attend with you? Um it's UCPI 37 923 and

01:31:00 attend with you? Um it's UCPI 37 923 and it's at tab A5 of the bundle. So

01:31:13 this is a document that was compiled by you. Is that right? Yeah.

01:31:16 Yeah. And this is from um presumably with the assistance from some of your diaries. Is that right? It's mainly my diaries. It's also my mom's. I think my mom went through her diaries as well.

01:31:28 diaries as well. And we see there various uh different types of events. um birthday parties with friends, Friday night dinner at your uh moms with family, barbecues with

01:31:41 your uh moms with family, barbecues with friends and family, uh trips, uh football matches and the like. Yeah, I'm reminded of all the football matches. Yeah. And

01:31:54 matches. Yeah. And from this document and from your recollection, um, how often, how much time, um, do you think Mark Jenner spent with your close family and close friends?

01:32:05 friends? A lot of time. He spent a lot of time with my I mean, he was considered, you know, one of the family. He was invited to, you know, he was I he was my partner. He was considered my long-term

01:32:17 partner. He was considered my long-term partner. And um you know if it's someone's wedding or be mitzvah or it's Friday night dinner or it's you know Passover whatever it you know obviously

01:32:28 Passover whatever it you know obviously you don't you know you bring your partner. The fact that he wasn't Jewish was irrelevant. It's he's your partner. Yes. Thank you. Um I'd like to pause for

01:32:39 Yes. Thank you. Um I'd like to pause for a moment here to play the video. Okay. Uh compilation. Uh it's at uh UCPI 37934.

01:32:48 37934. Um before it's played just to introduce it um and to uh understand um what it is and what it shows. Um this is a

01:32:59 and what it shows. Um this is a compilation video put together by you. Is that right? Yeah. Um, it shows both some camcorder video footage of Mark Jenner and you together and sometimes with family and

01:33:10 together and sometimes with family and friends and also a number of still photos that give an insight into his life with you. Is that right? Yeah.

01:33:17 Yeah. And it was put together by you for the purposes of showing the impact of the deceitful intimate sexual relationship um on you for a civil action that you

01:33:28 um on you for a civil action that you brought against the Metropolitan Police. That's right. Uh, so that was the reason that you made it. The um faces of everyone in the video except for Mark Jenner have been blurred

01:33:42 except for Mark Jenner have been blurred to protect the anonymity of you and your family and friends shown in it. And this video is a slightly edited version of the original. The original being just ever so slightly longer. Is that right?

01:33:53 ever so slightly longer. Is that right? Yeah.

01:33:54 Yeah. Um, can can we play the video, please?

01:34:11 You always reality.

01:34:15 reality. [music]

01:34:16 [music] Open your eyes. Look up to the skies [music] at sea.

01:34:26 Find that red light. [singing and music] You going to let it all hang out. Fat bottom girls. You make the [music] rocking.

01:34:47 And if you ever see me coming and if you know who I am, don't you breathe it to nobody [music] cuz you know I'm on the lamb man by Lucy Watson man by

01:35:03 lamb man by Lucy Watson man by [music] man by Nelly Johnson

01:35:08 [music]

01:35:11 Happy

01:35:14 [music] [singing]

01:35:16 [singing] wife Ring away

01:35:23 Christmas. [music]

01:35:33 [music]

01:35:49 [laughter] She can't be asked to amuse me by saying a couple of numbers between 1 and 60. [laughter] Too much effort. Can you believe it?

01:36:02 Bloody chair ripped in half. Look at [laughter] that. How the has that happened?

01:36:14 LOOK [laughter] AT THAT. HANG ON. LOOK. NO. Not arching around it. That was That's our best chair. Look at it. Look. Just ripped it. Minor breakthroughs today. Managed to do

01:36:27 Minor breakthroughs today. Managed to do some complicated cutting of tiles. So, it's gone reasonably well. Oh, it's taken me, you know, the day just to stick on them.

01:36:41 Might be wet tending

01:36:49 [music]

01:37:05 and then you can go back. No, I'll be sick. Marcus, sitting here sitting down quietly.

01:37:13 quietly. I'm going to finish off. Chocolate flour out there. Chocolate flour. You're going to come help me. You call the man who used to be interested in tractors. Used to be interested in tractors.

01:37:25 Used to be interested in tractors. There used to be something else. Now [laughter] an ex tractor fan.

01:37:32 Should we sit here? Let Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

01:37:54 Last time I was here. Yeah. You know me by now. I think my daughter took this. So, where's your mom? Still up there. She's still up there. Yeah. I don't see

01:38:05 She's still up there. Yeah. I don't see very much of her though. I used a long way away. Well, no, she married somebody else. That's all right. Well, we don't get on. Matters.

01:38:14 Matters. I know. I know. It's a shame, isn't it? Because it's sad.

01:38:20 sad. I got I still got a granddad up north. He's 86 now. Well, you can go and visit him, can't you?

01:38:47 I was telling a friend about it. We've met you. Yeah. Gina's Gina's boyfriend, Steven. I was like, Jordy. Yeah. Met you. And uh I said, "Oh, he

01:38:58 Yeah. Met you. And uh I said, "Oh, he goes, see the boat with a hat on. [laughter]

01:39:04 You remember Jen quicker?

01:39:07 quicker? We're now looking at the good beer guide to try and see if we can find anywhere to go before it gets too dark. But most of the places are already shut. What about the one? What do you want to do, Benny? I don't mind. Have a cup of tea.

01:39:28 It's 28th of uh November 1997 and we're waiting to go on a plane to Amsterdam. All right. So that is up left. It's on the right. Surely

01:39:39 the right. Surely it can't be Frank because this is [music]

01:39:52 where are you now where you live now

01:40:04 2019 January 10 to And we're on the A1 heading north up towards uh K

01:40:16 [music]

01:40:40 Right. [music]

01:40:53 It's really nice. Any problem? Too many tourists [music] are

01:41:04 on the bus now for the day

01:41:10 past 4 in the afternoon and we're in play on the bridge going over the perfume river.

01:41:28 Thank you. Um I want to ask you some um more detailed questions about what's shown on that video. But before I do, do you have any um general comment that you

01:41:39 you have any um general comment that you want to make now and what we see in that video and how you feel watching it now? Um,

01:41:46 Um, I feel very pleased to be able to show it in this public forum and I hope it makes the impact it was designed to do in the civil case. I hope it makes that impact um to the inquiry about the

01:41:57 impact um to the inquiry about the extent of the intrusion that's happened in my life and the life of many other women. Um there's a couple of details which if you go through it again kind of

01:42:08 which if you go through it again kind of with some freeze frame. Um, when he is doing the Johnny Cash lip sync and he says, "And if you see me coming and you don't know who I am, I'm on the lamb.

01:42:19 don't know who I am, I'm on the lamb. I'm on the run." He smiles. He can't quite help himself but have a little smile, a little joke to himself because he's he's this, you know, undercover person. Um there's also the

01:42:31 person. Um there's also the [clears throat] moment where which makes me laugh every time uh where the chair breaks and he says um this was our best chair. So he's so like in his own head

01:42:42 chair. So he's so like in his own head at that point he really thinks that he is my partner in that home with our best chair. It's not my best chair. uh and the the lying to my grandma as well that

01:42:55 the the lying to my grandma as well that you know that moment where he's keeping up the lies um to my grandma and the other bit which again when you watch it back and you know what his real job was he's constantly doing that police thing of reporting the time and the date we're

01:43:08 of reporting the time and the date we're now on this date and we're going up here and we're doing this. Um, so I think it it's there's some reveals in there about who he really was. And it's only, as I said earlier, when I was going through

01:43:19 said earlier, when I was going through all my videos in detail, some of those things um, struck me. Thank you. Um, the video shows a number of photographs of of Mark Jenner at

01:43:31 of photographs of of Mark Jenner at family events. I'm going to come to those in more detail in just a moment. I just want to look at the the camcorder video footage that's that's um shown in this compilation video. Um there are

01:43:42 this compilation video. Um there are various um clips of you together um laughing, joking, fits of laughter. Yeah. Do you recognize those on there? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um

01:43:52 Um I mean I have to say I repeat my earlier point about the cannabis, [laughter] but yeah, we were very giggly. Yeah, there was a lot of laughter. We had a we did have a a real laugh together. Yeah, there are various um clips of um both

01:44:04 there are various um clips of um both him and you together uh singing or lip syncing, mimming singing uh including a Queen song I think in their Johnny Cash as you've mentioned and the Fairy Tale of New York. Is that right?

01:44:17 of New York. Is that right? Um in those again you're you seem to be in fits of laughter. Yeah. And also they were his that was his idea to do that and [snorts] I was struck at the time by his I can't

01:44:30 struck at the time by his I can't remember any words to any song ever and he knew a lot of words to a lot of songs and I do remember on one occasion he told me that he was able to do a very

01:44:42 told me that he was able to do a very good Freddy Mercury impression and that he once did it on a on a bus in Turkey with some tourists and he got up there and did a Freddy Mercury and I begged him to show me and he wouldn't. And

01:44:54 him to show me and he wouldn't. And again, on reflection, I think that's because I would have seen what a good actor, impersonator, dramatist he was. And I think he he was he had a very sticky mind. He was able to, you know,

01:45:06 sticky mind. He was able to, you know, those lyrics that was his thing and the whole Johnny Cash thing. Um, yeah, we went to see Johnny Cash together at the Albert Hall. So, he he told me that it was his dad. Did his dad like Johnny

01:45:18 was his dad. Did his dad like Johnny Cash?

01:45:20 Cash? um he's seen at one point um talking to the camera about tiling a kitchen. Was that your kitchen in your flat? That was my kitchen in my flat. And had I been slightly more um knowledgeable

01:45:32 I been slightly more um knowledgeable about the skills involved in installing a kitchen, that might have been a good clue to the fact that he perhaps hadn't actually been a joiner. Um because he took a very long time to do that

01:45:43 took a very long time to do that kitchen. I understood that was because he's got his real you know he's got his other proper joint and this was kind of just uh you know what he was doing when he was at home. Um but the tiling I

01:45:55 he was at home. Um but the tiling I accepted that you know I didn't expect he was a tyler but he did buy a uh is it a router and he was kind of like you know quite new to the router but without

01:46:06 know quite new to the router but without stereotyping too much my family let's just say are not carpenters and joiners so I was new to that. Um, we see uh video footage of him at dinner with your

01:46:19 video footage of him at dinner with your friends and and with friends and with you on holiday in Amsterdam and then we see another holiday uh to CIT and another to Thailand and Vietnam in the summer of 1998 in that in some of that

01:46:32 summer of 1998 in that in some of that video footage. Yeah.

01:46:34 Yeah. Um there was also as you've mentioned um some footage of him with your grandmother. Yeah. And I think you the caption on the screen um said that that was the last

01:46:45 screen um said that that was the last footage you have of her before she died. Yeah.

01:46:49 Yeah. How does watching that particular clip make you feel now? Oh, it's I mean again my my grandma is a you know my grandma was a a very she'd

01:47:00 you know my grandma was a a very she'd had her own story of um abuse by uh her ex-husband, my grandpa. and um she she had an Italian background and I

01:47:14 she she had an Italian background and I remember her she's very little and I remember once being in the lift with her going up to where she lived with Mark who was huge by comparison and I remember her saying to him it was probably on that occasion actually

01:47:26 probably on that occasion actually before we'd gone upstairs um you're going to look after that's called Allison you're going to look after my Allison aren't you and he said yes and she said because if you don't I'm going

01:47:37 she said because if you don't I'm going going to get the mafioshi on you. And um it it's just you know it's the whole thing is so weird and disturbing. I've I've processed a lot of it. It's he was

01:47:49 I've processed a lot of it. It's he was part of our life. He was in the he is in the fabric of you know our our memories. He was in the fabric of the memories in our head and he is in our photographs and our our video footage. So

01:48:01 and our our video footage. So and it taints those memories. It taints them, but it also makes them, you know, it makes you remember like, yes, I I suppose it it does taint them, but at the same

01:48:13 it it does taint them, but at the same time, I'm very very pleased that I recorded it because otherwise I wouldn't be able to evidence that here now, and she would be delighted. So, I'm it it's okay.

01:48:23 okay. Thank you. Um, I'll come back to some of the photos in in more detail after the break we're about to take. But just in terms of um this last questions, um there were

01:48:36 this last questions, um there were pictures of him gardening. Was that at your flat? Yeah.

01:48:39 Yeah. And um also barbecuing in a garden. Is that also at your Yeah. And painting the the hallway. Yeah. He painted the bathroom, I think, at at some point. Thank you. Um sir, this might be a

01:48:50 Thank you. Um sir, this might be a convenient moment to take a break because I'm going to move on to some of the photos. Um certainly. Um we'll break for 15 minutes and resume at um shortly before 10.

01:49:01 and resume at um shortly before 10. Thank you.

02:09:54 Yes. Thank you, sir. Um Allison, before the break, we were looking at your compilation video. I just wanted to ask you one more question about the camcorder footage. Do we see um some

02:10:05 camcorder footage. Do we see um some footage of Mark Jenner playing with your young niece and nephew? Yes. Was that a family um dinner? Yeah, it it may be a family dinner. It

02:10:16 Yeah, it it may be a family dinner. It might be Christmas time. It was a couple of different occasions actually. One occasion is round at my brother's house. Um and then another occasion, I'm not sure exactly where, but it was Yes, it

02:10:27 sure exactly where, but it was Yes, it would have been with family. Thank you. I'd like to look then at some of the photos which show the types of events that Mark Jenner came along with you to during the course of your

02:10:38 you to during the course of your relationship. Um can we look at uh UCPI 37945? It's at tab A7 of the bundle. Sir, um

02:10:49 It's at tab A7 of the bundle. Sir, um [clears throat] I think this event is your mother's wedding. It is. Is that right? When was that? I think without looking I think it's September 1996

02:11:01 September 1996 and in the compilation video the caption to this um photograph was the family photo. Yes. Is that right? Yes. Does that indicate that this was really close family only?

02:11:13 close family only? Yes.

02:11:13 Yes. In this photo I mean I can tell you I can tell you without their names who they are but yes please do. So on the far left is my sister-in-law. Next to her is my brother. Then there's

02:11:25 Next to her is my brother. Then there's me and Mark. And then there's my uh stepbrother's wife. And then my stepbrother and then my stepsister. And then my stepfather in the front and my

02:11:36 then my stepfather in the front and my mom. And I think the long run on the left I think is probably my brother uh and sister-in-law's uh daughter who you saw in the video. Thanks.

02:11:45 Thanks. My niece.

02:11:47 My niece. Um next one then please is UCPI 37956. That's at tab a A8 of the bundle. So, yeah.

02:11:57 yeah. Um I think you say that this is a wedding anniversary party in 1998. Is that right? Yes, I think so. It's a it's a wedding anniversary of of my mom and my

02:12:08 anniversary of of my mom and my stepfather's is their anniversary. What is telling about this photograph, which I think speaks to um Mark's sadistic streak, is if you look at his left hand,

02:12:21 streak, is if you look at his left hand, he's actually pinching me. And where was this? Was this at your mother's house? Yes, in the garden of my mom's house. Um, what were describe the nature of the

02:12:34 Um, what were describe the nature of the guests at that? How many peep roughly was it? Was it close family only? It was extended family. I mean when you we my family before my mother remarried was fairly small but she married into a

02:12:47 was fairly small but she married into a very big family who were very close and you know we basically we've all become one family it's a little bit like you know sort of the uh the partridge family it's one very big extended family so

02:13:00 it's one very big extended family so there were probably I don't know 30 40 people but all they're all considered close family cousins aunts uncles thank

02:13:09 thank Uh if we look please at UCPI 37967.

02:13:15 That's at tab A9 of the bundle. Sir um this is a photo um of Mark Jenner and I think this event was your stepbrother's

02:13:26 think this event was your stepbrother's wedding in 1998. Is that right? That's right. Yeah. Um and is this a photo of the wedding reception? Yeah, it's a dinner. Yeah, dinner reception. Yeah. In a very fancy London hotel.

02:13:38 hotel. Thank you. And again, was was that uh close family and friends of your stepbrother invited? Yeah, it was a big Jewish wedding, so there was a lot of people, you know, not al not just close family, but all the

02:13:49 al not just close family, but all the close family were there. Absolutely. Um you also say that he was present at your mother's 60th birthday party. Is that right? Yes.

02:14:00 Yes. Um and describe that event. Um that was a similar crowd of about 40 50 people. uh maybe a bit more in my mom's home. Uh and we um we arranged a

02:14:15 mom's home. Uh and we um we arranged a kind of a we sang to her with some adapted lyrics from a a classic song [snorts]

02:14:22 [snorts] and Mark was part of the uh part of the group singing of that. So he was very, you know, it was me and my brother, another very old friend of ours, you know, there it was people I've known all

02:14:33 know, there it was people I've known all my life uh in a a kind of a group quite humorous song for my mom and he was very much part of that and some I mean I think that's video actually that I've

02:14:44 think that's video actually that I've lost. I kind of vaguely remember having a video of that that I don't have anymore.

02:14:48 anymore. Thank you. Uh if we look please at UCPI 37978.

02:14:54 37978. Uh that's at tab A10 of the bundle. Sir, um I think you described this as being um Passover in 1997. That's at paragraph 4.69 of your

02:15:06 That's at paragraph 4.69 of your um witness statement. Um so again, was that a celebration of a of a Jewish event with family? Yeah, it's like it's Jewish Easter. Um, yes, it's, you know, as I said at the

02:15:18 yes, it's, you know, as I said at the right at the beginning, there's lots of the there's lots of these sort of family events and um they're big family meals. There's a uh I don't need to explain what Passover is, I don't think, but um

02:15:29 what Passover is, I don't think, but um Mark was absolutely included. And and also like, you know, didn't resist, didn't kind of take a I'm not doing that nonsense position that's, you know, some people in our uh political groupings

02:15:42 people in our uh political groupings might have done. Um he embraced it. He was welcomed and he seemed to enjoy it and he actively participated. Absolutely. Yeah. Um just pausing for a second as an

02:15:55 Um just pausing for a second as an aside. Um would would you consider your mother as an activist as Mark Jenner describes her? Um, no,

02:16:05 Um, no, I I should I'm loath to say this, but I am going to say it. For her 60th birthday party, my brother organized a fabulous cake that was in the shape of a

02:16:16 fabulous cake that was in the shape of a red flag and out of the ca cake a bottle of champagne, which I think sort of characterizes perhaps mine and definitely my mom's politics.

02:16:26 politics. I see. [laughter] Thank you. Um, so when Mark Jenner describes her as being closely involved with the Colin Roach Center, you don't agree with that? You know, she she my dad once said appar

02:16:39 You know, she she my dad once said appar well I've vaguely my dad once said about my mom you're all for the working class until you meet any of them which I was a little bit unfair because actually when she did meet Mark Metaf and when she met

02:16:50 she did meet Mark Metaf and when she met Mark she was you know she she like me she welcomed that authenticity with with you know within the left and she was um she trained as a Pitman typist and she

02:17:02 she trained as a Pitman typist and she did type stuff up for the Colin Roach Center. She did sometimes go to the colony center. It was quite a long way to travel, but she did sometimes go there during the day and work um alongside Mark Metaf to type up

02:17:13 alongside Mark Metaf to type up bulletins or minutes. I really wouldn't call her an activist at the Colin Roach Center. And um I it was fairly occasional cuz from my memory

02:17:24 occasional cuz from my memory maybe she had retired by then. I don't know. Maybe she had maybe she had maybe that's when she'd married my stepfather and had retired. But yeah, I mean it's a it's the other it's a long way away. So no, she was definitely not an activist

02:17:36 no, she was definitely not an activist and definitely not going there very regularly. Thank you. Um, paragraph 4.70 of your statement, you describe that Mark Jenner also met your father and that side of

02:17:48 also met your father and that side of the family. Is that right? Yeah.

02:17:49 Yeah. And he, you say he had a good relationship with your brother and his wife. Is that right? Yeah.

02:17:57 Yeah. Uh, he spent the millennium Eve with you and them, I think. Is that right? Correct. Yeah. Um and he attended a family barbecue for your niece's birthday.

02:18:10 your niece's birthday. Yeah. A family barbecue for my niece's for my niece's birthday. That was at my sister-in-law's mother's house. I mean, that's how extended it became, you know, that's how how extensive his his

02:18:21 that's how how extensive his his infiltration into our family was. It wasn't just my mom. This is my sister-in-law's mother. So, it was a barbecue for my niece, I think, for my niece's birthday that was being held at

02:18:32 niece's birthday that was being held at my sister-in-law. So, it's quite I mean, yes. So, he he came to that as well. Let's just look at some of the photos. Um, can we have UCPI 37891?

02:18:45 Um, can we have UCPI 37891? Uh, that's at tab A1 of the bundle.

02:18:52 [clears throat] There we are. Yeah. Is that that um barbecue that you Yeah. And the reason I've got these photographs is because, you know, when I was trying to collect this evidence, I did ask my family, "Have you got any

02:19:03 did ask my family, "Have you got any photos of Mark from from the time we were together?" And this there was a couple from here. There are many others that people kind of keep telling me, "Do you know what? I've got loads of photos I haven't given you." So, there are

02:19:14 I haven't given you." So, there are plenty. This is a kind of a fraction, but yes, this is at my sister-in-law's mother's house. Let's have a look at one more. UCPI 37892,

02:19:23 37892, please. And that's tab A 12 of the bundle.

02:19:27 bundle. Is that the same barbecue event? And without revealing their names, do you recognize who's in the photograph there with Mark? I think that's my mom on the left and I think that's my stepfather next to her.

02:19:40 think that's my stepfather next to her. Thank you. Uh, so you also say he met your grandparents, your mother's cousins, aunts, and the wider family, including your wider step family as you've just described. Yeah. Wider step

02:19:52 you've just described. Yeah. Wider step family on both sides. Uh, at paragraph 4.74 of your witness statement, you say he attended your aunt's funeral. Is that right? Yeah. Well, I think so. Yeah. I mean, I

02:20:06 Yeah. Well, I think so. Yeah. I mean, I think so. Yeah. [snorts] Um, do you know roughly when that was? Not without looking at my timeline. No, don't worry. Uh, you and your family trusted him completely.

02:20:18 trusted him completely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And both you and they considered him as part of the family. Is that right? Very much so. Yeah. He was completely integrated into your

02:20:29 He was completely integrated into your life and your family. Yes.

02:20:33 Yes. [cough]

02:20:34 [cough] Uh paragraph 4.77 of your witness statement, you say that he witnessed a deed for a property uh signed in his undercover name. Um, there's no need to to bring it up, but sir, for for your

02:20:46 to bring it up, but sir, for for your note, it's at tab A14 of the bundle UCPI 37894.

02:20:53 37894. Um, how do you feel about that now? Well, that's an example of when I asked my family, have you got any um or no, I don't think I asked. I think my my stepbrother um I think they've been moving or clearing some stuff out and he

02:21:05 moving or clearing some stuff out and he happened upon this document and sent it to me to say, "Look at this." I was quite shocked by that. I don't remember that. Um my stepfather had a a small property business and um I think that

02:21:17 property business and um I think that was transference of some deeds and it's extraordinary. It's quite extraordinary the audacity actually to have agreed to sign that under that name as a I mean

02:21:29 sign that under that name as a I mean yeah I've I've kind of got no words about that. I was more shocked about that than some of the other stuff because I didn't know about it and I I had it presented to me as wow look at this.

02:21:39 this. Yes.

02:21:41 Yes. at Paragraph 4.67 of your witness statement, you describe him as being an integral part of your family. That's how it felt at the time. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

02:21:52 Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I want to ask you about holidays, please. Uh you say at paragraph 4.79 of your witness statement that you went on many overnight trips and holidays together, uh mostly alone, but sometimes

02:22:05 together, uh mostly alone, but sometimes with friends and family. And we saw some of those in the compilation video, didn't we? Um, between I just want to go through some of them and look at some of the photos in a little bit more detail.

02:22:16 the photos in a little bit more detail. Paragraph 4.80 of your statement, you say that in 1995, between the 27th of December and the 3rd of January, you went camping to Scotland in Mark's van. Yeah.

02:22:27 Yeah. Um, let's just look at some of the photographs. Uh, UCPI 37895, please. It's tab A15 of the bundle.

02:22:47 Um, that's a picture of Mark Jenner. And is that his the vehicle, the van that you referred to earlier? If we look at the next one, then 37896, please. Tab A16 of the bundle.

02:23:01 please. Tab A16 of the bundle. That's you in his van. Yeah. Um obviously with your uh face redacted. Uh UCPI 37897 please. Tab A17 of the bundle.

02:23:14 please. Tab A17 of the bundle. Again you uh on holiday next to his van and the last one 37898 pleased to have A18 of the bundle.

02:23:25 of the bundle. That's Mark in the snow. Yes.

02:23:28 Yes. Um

02:23:30 Um tell us a little bit about that holiday together. What did you do together? I think we went walking a lot. I think I think that's the holiday where I think we w he had he was interested in military history and um he was

02:23:43 military history and um he was interested in history full stop which I found appealing and he was um presented as someone who was self-educated and I think we I think it's on that trip that we went to Flauden Field and um I

02:23:55 we went to Flauden Field and um I remember the snow being kneede um and I really didn't want to walk very far at all and I do remember I think it was on that occasion that um he was very encouraging and very motivational and I

02:24:07 encouraging and very motivational and I called him Sarge. Uh, another trip, uh, spring of 1996. You talk about this at paragraph 4.81 of your witness statement. There's a travel

02:24:19 your witness statement. There's a travel authorization which I know you've seen. Um, it's at MPS0527873.

02:24:27 And sir, that's at tab B28 in HN15's bundle. you don't have it uh in front of you, but it can be brought up on screen. Uh but this is a travel authorization

02:24:38 Uh but this is a travel authorization for Mark Jenner to travel to Exat on Monday the 27th of May 1996 for the purpose of CRC business. Yeah.

02:24:49 Yeah. Um is what the authorization is given for. So Colin Roach Center business. Um, May the Monday the 27th of May 1996 was a bank holiday and you say in your

02:25:01 a bank holiday and you say in your statement that you have a diary entry for the Tuesday, Tuesday the 28th of May which reads back from Cornwall and you believe that the travel authorization that we see here uh

02:25:14 authorization that we see here uh authorized uh by Mark Jenner's managers in fact relates to that holiday that you took with Mark Jenner to Cornwall over the end of the bank May bank holiday

02:25:25 the end of the bank May bank holiday weekend. Is that right? I think so. Yes. And if we just look at the photos um from this trip uh UCPI 37899

02:25:36 37899 please. And that's tab A19 of the bundle.

02:25:43 Uh and then the next one 3790 tab A20 of the bundle that shows uh Mark you think on this trip and the last one UCPI 37902

02:25:58 trip and the last one UCPI 37902 at tab A21 of the bundle. Uh that's you again

02:26:06 again in Cornwall o over this bank holiday weekend

02:26:10 weekend I believe so. Yeah. Was that a holiday uh for just the two of you? I think so. Yeah. And

02:26:17 And was it was that trip related to any Colin Roach Center business at all? No.

02:26:25 Uh the next one then, please. Uh paragraph 4.81b of your statement, you talk about a trip between the 16th and 26th of August 1996, and this is a

02:26:36 26th of August 1996, and this is a holiday to Cree. Yeah. Um, if we just look at some of the photographs then, UCPI 37903,

02:26:45 that's tab A22 of the bundle.

02:26:50 [cough] Uh, is that Mark Jenner relaxing on holiday in CIT? I think so. Yeah. Uh, UCPI 37904,

02:27:01 Uh, UCPI 37904, please. Tab A23 of the bundle. Yeah, that's definitely our accommodation increase. Uh UCPI 37905

02:27:12 Uh UCPI 37905 tab A24.

02:27:18 Yeah, that's uh walking the Samrian Gorge where of course I want to give up which is why he's looking like that. I see. Uh UCPI 37906 please. Tab A25 of the bundle.

02:27:32 please. Tab A25 of the bundle. This is an interesting photo. It's one a bit like the other one I mentioned where if you look at his hand, he was pinching me. Here, this one I think is taken by my stepbrother who was in Creit with his

02:27:44 my stepbrother who was in Creit with his then new girlfriend who became his wife. Um, and we visited them in their apartment in their hotel. And if you look at Mark's right hand, he's making a

02:27:56 look at Mark's right hand, he's making a gesture there that signifies something rude, let's just say. Um, and I it was only kind of when I looked back on these in some detail that I saw that.

02:28:07 on these in some detail that I saw that. So, I think he's it's that kind of, you know, internal conversation he's having in his own head about laughing at the people he's around. You You think he's enjoying deceiving

02:28:18 You You think he's enjoying deceiving you?

02:28:19 you? I think he's making a gesture about my stepbrother or my family or me or any of us, but he's he's there's a coded message in there. That's not a natural way to leave

02:28:31 there. That's not a natural way to leave your hand. Um, if we look at UCPI 37907, please

02:28:38 please [snorts] tab A26 of the bundle. Again, that's the two of you um in CIT on holiday.

02:28:44 holiday. Yeah.

02:28:45 Yeah. The next one, UCPI 37908, tab A27.

02:28:52 Again, him relaxing on holiday. Yeah.

02:28:56 Yeah. [clears throat] Can we look at the the next trip then please? Um between the 1st and the 3rd of November 1996, you went to Center Parks with uh two

02:29:09 you went to Center Parks with uh two friends and two young two young daughters. Yeah.

02:29:12 Yeah. Um without naming them. Do you do you remember this know who they are? Yeah. Um, if we look at the photographs then UCPI 37911

02:29:23 then UCPI 37911 tab A30 of the bundle please. Is that the two of you cooking together? Yeah, my friend um she's one of my oldest friends from school and uh she

02:29:35 oldest friends from school and uh she won this trip um to Center Parks for a chalet for six I think for her and her husband, her then husband and her two children and

02:29:46 then husband and her two children and invited us to join them. And that's us cooking in the chalet kitchen. Uh next photo, UCPI 37913, please. That's tab A31 of the bundle.

02:29:59 please. That's tab A31 of the bundle. Um, that's Mark Jenner on the sofa with someone who's redacted for privacy. Would that have been uh one of your friend's daughters? Yeah. Who's who you can't see but has

02:30:10 Yeah. Who's who you can't see but has just come out of the bath and is wrapped in a towel. Yeah.

02:30:14 Yeah. So quite an intimate moment. Yeah. Family type moment. Friends. Uh UCPI 37914, please. Tab A32 of the bundle. Again, is this you serving up dinner

02:30:27 Again, is this you serving up dinner with Mark Jenner? Yeah.

02:30:29 Yeah. Um, again, very intimate scenes. Complete trust in him. Yeah. I actually think we're serving the children's dinner there, but yes.

02:30:40 children's dinner there, but yes. Uh, uh, paragraph 4.89 of your statement. Um, this is also in 1996. There's another travel authorization uh for Mark Jenner to travel to Sunderland

02:30:53 for Mark Jenner to travel to Sunderland for the purpose of a meeting on the 30th of January and it's at MPS0527890

02:31:02 and that sir is at tab B24 of HN15's bundle.

02:31:08 bundle. Um

02:31:10 Um if we just blow it up slightly, it's very small. There we go. And you we see in the middle of the page there uh that the officer has been requested by his

02:31:22 officer has been requested by his organization to travel to Sunderland on the 30th of January 96 for the purpose of a meeting. Um you have a diary entry for that date of a football match between Sunderland and Tranmir Rovers.

02:31:35 between Sunderland and Tranmir Rovers. Yeah. And you believe, I think, that the purpose of his travel to Sunderland on the 30th of January 196 was to attend that football match for pleasure essentially and not for any Colin Roach

02:31:47 essentially and not for any Colin Roach Center business. Is that right? Yes. I mean, I'm sure they could justify this saying that it was forming a stronger relationship with Mark Meov, but it was a football match. So, I don't

02:31:58 but it was a football match. So, I don't know why they didn't put that in the uh authorization. Yes, it wasn't a meeting. It definitely wasn't a meeting. Uh if we look then at the trips you took in 1997.

02:32:09 look then at the trips you took in 1997. Uh you deal with these at paragraph 4.82 of your statement. In January you and Mark went away to the Lake District uh alone together. Uh and the let's just

02:32:23 alone together. Uh and the let's just look at the photographs. UCPI 37 940 tab A56 of the bundle please. [snorts] Is that um Mark in the Lake District in

02:32:35 Is that um Mark in the Lake District in January 1997? Do you think? Well, I think I believe so. I wasn't I hadn't included this originally, but it was only when I saw some of the authorizations, I think, that I then

02:32:47 authorizations, I think, that I then found these and looked on the back and they're dated, aren't they? I think with with uh January 97 and they're they're specified of particular places in um the Lake District.

02:32:58 Lake District. Thank you. If we look at the next one then UCPI 37942 tab A58 of the bundle. Is that you on the same trip? It is. Yeah. Yeah.

02:33:09 Yeah. Um and then the last one UCPI 37944 tab A60 of the bundle.

02:33:20 Yeah, that's you. Yeah.

02:33:21 Yeah. Um you're right about the travel authorization. If we just look at that MPS0527833

02:33:29 and so that is at tab B32 in HN15's bundle.

02:33:34 bundle. Um

02:33:37 there's an authorization

02:33:41 to for travel to Cumbria/North Umbumbre dated the 6th of January 1997 for a trip on the 29th of December 96 to 4th of January 97. And it's signed by uh

02:33:56 4th of January 97. And it's signed by uh detective uh superintendent. It says there, but DCI Edmonson HN216 uh for uh CRC uh meetings we see there.

02:34:08 uh for uh CRC uh meetings we see there. And you believe that that travel authorization in fact relates to this holiday that you took with Mark Jenner to the Lake District? I think so. And that again was just a holiday for the two of you for pleasure.

02:34:19 the two of you for pleasure. Yep. and not related to any Colin Roach Center business at all. No.

02:34:27 No. Uh, in February, you and Mark went to the Breen Beacons National Park, walking along the river Y and in the Black Mountains. Is that right? Yeah.

02:34:37 Yeah. In April, you and Mark went to Olston in North Umbrea with uh some friends uh who lived there for for a few nights. And if we look at um the photographs,

02:34:49 And if we look at um the photographs, it's UCPI 37915, please. And that's tab A33 of the bundle.

02:35:01 Is that the two of you together? And one more. UCPI 37916 at tab A34

02:35:12 again. Is that the two of you on holiday together?

02:35:15 together? Yeah.

02:35:16 Yeah. in uh May or June, you say you and Mark went away together alone to Appal Cross in Scotland in Mark's van and you camped in the van. Is that right? Yeah, I think we're I think it was Apple

02:35:28 Yeah, I think we're I think it was Apple Cross and Aleppool actually. But yeah, and the trip lasted about a week or so. Yeah.

02:35:34 Yeah. And if we uh that those exhibits are at A34

02:35:40 A34 to A39 of the bundle. I won't I won't bring them up, but we'll come to some others. Uh between the 3rd and 18th of August, you and Mark went on holiday together to Israel. Yeah.

02:35:51 Yeah. And you met up with family, friends living there and stayed with them for a couple of nights in Tel Aviv. Is that right?

02:35:57 right? When we arrived. Yeah. Um you say that when you were investigating when Mark Jenner disappeared um you wrote a detailed uh chronology of that of that holiday and

02:36:10 chronology of that of that holiday and it's at UCPI 37924

02:36:14 37924 which is at tab A41 of the bundle.

02:36:20 Um does that detail um that holiday and what you did together?

02:36:25 together? Yeah, I'm not sure I wrote that after he left. I think maybe that was more contemporaneous actually. And when it says at the top holiday from hell.

02:36:33 hell. Yes.

02:36:33 Yes. What was that about? [gasps] Because we were uh scheduled to go for 3 weeks and um after about I don't know 10 days he was struck with apparently

02:36:45 days he was struck with apparently pneumonia that resulted in us having to go to Talisare Hospital. Um and well he was unwell and the the doctors there

02:36:56 was unwell and the the doctors there said he had pneumonia. I think there was a bit of back and forth and and eventually they said you need to you need to go home. So our holiday was cut short. Um and we came back I think of I

02:37:08 short. Um and we came back I think of I mean I've looked at the dates of the ticket so I can see it looks like um we were there for maybe 12 days. I'm not sure entirely but whatever it says on on here would be accurate. Thank you. Uh in October, 31st of

02:37:22 Thank you. Uh in October, 31st of October, you and Mark went away for the weekend to New Radner with some friends. Yeah.

02:37:28 Yeah. Um

02:37:30 Um and you you talk about that at paragraph 4.82F of your uh statement in on the 28th of November, you and Mark went away for a weekend to Amsterdam with uh a

02:37:43 for a weekend to Amsterdam with uh a friend and colleague from your school and two other friends. Yeah. And if we look at the photo UCPI 37930

02:37:51 37930 at tab A47 of the bundle, is that um Mark Jenner on that [clears throat] trip to Amsterdam? I believe so. Yes.

02:38:03 I believe so. Yes. Uh you also talk about a holiday between the 29th of December and the 2nd of January, so another new year. After spending Christmas with your mom, you and Mark drove to Scotland in Mark's van

02:38:15 and Mark drove to Scotland in Mark's van to spend New Year's Eve Eve together alone in the Ken Gorms and you stayed in Mark's van. Is that the video camcorder footage we see on the um compilation

02:38:27 footage we see on the um compilation video where he's talking about driving up the A1? It may be. It may be. My main memory of that was that that at some point it was minus 22 degrees and we slept in the van.

02:38:38 van. [clears throat] uh trips taken in 1998. Then please paragraph 4.83 of your statement. Uh on the 31st of January, you and Mark went

02:38:50 the 31st of January, you and Mark went to the Quantox to visit friends and their child, friends and colleagues from your school who had previously stayed in your flat. Is that right? That's right. In February or March, you and Mark went

02:39:02 In February or March, you and Mark went to the Peak District with friends. Is that right? Yeah. And these are are different friends. I think you have a list um so you know who's under the privacy redactions, but these are a number of

02:39:13 redactions, but these are a number of different friends taking trips with the two of you. Is that right? Yeah.

02:39:19 Yeah. Um between the 24th and the 26th of May, you and Mark went away camping together for the bank holiday weekend at Lime Regis uh Glastonbury. [snorts] Uh, and if we just look at the photo, UCPI

02:39:32 if we just look at the photo, UCPI 37931,

02:39:34 37931, tab A48 of the bundle, please. [snorts] Um, is that [clears throat] you and Mark in the

02:39:41 in the Yeah.

02:39:42 Yeah. tent camping? Uh, on between the 12th of Beg the question who took that photograph actually, but I'm not. Yes. You don't remember? I don't know. No. Uh between the 12th of

02:39:55 I don't know. No. Uh between the 12th of August and the 3rd of September, you and Mark went on holiday together alone for three weeks to Thailand and Vietnam. And we saw some of that footage, camcorder video footage on the compilation video,

02:40:07 video footage on the compilation video, didn't we? Um can we just look at some of the photos? UCPI 37932 at tab A49 of the bundle, please.

02:40:21 Is that mark on that holiday? It is. Yeah. Uh the next one, UCPI 379 uh 35, please.

02:40:34 Uh and that's tab A50, tab A51 of the bundle, I think. Yeah, that's in the tunnels. Vietnam

02:40:42 Vietnam and UCPI 37936, please. Tab A52 of the bundle.

02:40:51 Is that you on a boat trip? Yes. With with Mark [clears throat] Jenner and you on a boat trip. Um,

02:40:57 Um, so again, a holiday for pleasure, a lengthier one this time, three weeks where you did uh touristy normal touristy things. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, the trip to Israel was supposed to be three weeks, but yes,

02:41:08 supposed to be three weeks, but yes, this was three weeks. Uh, between the 16th and 18th of October, you and Mark went to Taton to to visit friends again and their child for the weekend. Is that right?

02:41:20 for the weekend. Is that right? Yeah. just going back to the Vietnam trip. I don't think I put this in my statement. It may be irrelevant and it may be real chickenpox, but we did have to delay this trip. Um, and I we was we

02:41:31 to delay this trip. Um, and I we was we were supposed to go on a certain day and I had chickenpox and then it was delayed and I yeah I I don't know what anyway I just say that because at the time when I was looking back on stuff I was quite paranoid about a lot of things and I did

02:41:43 paranoid about a lot of things and I did start to think was that you know had I been sudden somehow made to have chickenpox that I didn't have you know that that we needed to go on a certain date and not earlier than that but anyway we did go for 3 weeks and that sort of thinking that you had

02:41:56 and that sort of thinking that you had at the time when you'd found out that Mark Jenner was an undercover police officer.

02:42:01 officer. Yeah.

02:42:01 Yeah. Is that indicative of the type of impact uh that that deceit had upon you that you questioned everything? Absolutely. Yes. Um going on then to trips taken in 1999.

02:42:15 Um going on then to trips taken in 1999. Between the 5th and the 7th of March, you and Mark went away together for for the weekend to Amsterdam. And you think on this occasion you went alone. Uh that's uh an exhibit uh 52. We don't

02:42:30 that's uh an exhibit uh 52. We don't need to to bring it up. Um between the 1st and the 6th of April, you and Mark went away to Land's End in Cornwall with your friends who were friends and colleagues from your school. Yeah.

02:42:41 Yeah. And again, exhibits 53 and 54. I don't need to bring it up. Um on between the 28th and the 30th of May, you and Mark went away for the weekend to the forest

02:42:52 went away for the weekend to the forest of Dean. And you think it was the two of you alone together? Is that another another holiday? And in August you went away together alone for a 10day cycling holiday in

02:43:03 alone for a 10day cycling holiday in Holland.

02:43:03 Holland. Yeah.

02:43:04 Yeah. Is that right? Yeah.

02:43:05 Yeah. Um and then in 2000, you say between the 5th and 6th of February, you and Mark went away together to Church Stratton in Shroptshire. And again, you think you

02:43:16 Shroptshire. And again, you think you went alone together. Yeah. Um,

02:43:20 Yeah. Um, do you think that these are all you've detailed all of the trips that you took together or do you think there might have been more that you you just don't know the details of now? I think probably them the large majority

02:43:33 I think probably them the large majority are there may have been others but I think probably that's almost all of them. I mean a lot of them are taken from if they're during the dates when I didn't have my diary they'll be from the video logs. Um, but I think they're the

02:43:45 video logs. Um, but I think they're the vast majority. Yeah, thank you. There's a lot of them. Yes, there there are. And also the thing that I think when I look at them again, when I look at some of these photos and cycling in Holland and walking in the minus 22 degrees, I

02:43:57 and walking in the minus 22 degrees, I do think that that is one of the things that you asked earlier like what I was attracted to in him and how did the relationship work. I did do things with him that I probably wouldn't have done

02:44:08 him that I probably wouldn't have done with anyone else because he did appear and was extremely capable and made me feel safe. And so that's a you know that that is quite complicated. Yes. Thank you. Uh I want to look then

02:44:22 Yes. Thank you. Uh I want to look then that can be taken down. Thank you. I want to look then at the progression of your relationship um from 1998 onwards. Um at paragraph 4.106 106 of your

02:44:36 Um at paragraph 4.106 106 of your statement, you say that you were never interested in marrying Mark, but from around 1998 onwards, you knew you wanted to have children with him. Is that right? Just explain

02:44:47 right? Just explain um how those feelings progressed during that time. Yeah. I mean, I I wasn't interested in marrying anyone. I I wasn't married before, and whilst I have got married

02:44:58 before, and whilst I have got married since, and that's perhaps, you know, as a partly as a as a result of all this, um I just didn't believe in marriage. It wasn't that I didn't want a committed monogous long-term relationship with

02:45:10 monogous long-term relationship with him. I did. Um, but from 1998, I wanted to have children with him and I talked very openly about that. You can see in some of the photographs, my peers had children. You know, they were starting

02:45:22 children. You know, they were starting to have children and therefore some of our social life or my social life was changing. People were going out less in the evenings. They were things were changing. Um and and I felt as well, you

02:45:34 changing. Um and and I felt as well, you know, we'd been together for about three years and um I was in sort of my early to mid30s and it just felt like the natural and the the most obvious next

02:45:46 natural and the the most obvious next stage if only to you know to think about it and talk about it and plan for it and and you said you talked openly about it. Did you discuss it with Mark Jenner? Absolutely. Yes. Reg not regularly. I

02:45:58 Absolutely. Yes. Reg not regularly. I mean, I think it became quite regular in the last sort of year to 18 months of our relationship, but you know, I saw how he was, you can see on the video how he was with um my nephew and niece and

02:46:09 he was with um my nephew and niece and how he was with my friend's children um when we went round there. I I could see he'd be a great a great dad. Um and

02:46:20 he'd be a great a great dad. Um and yeah it was it's it's and also I as I mentioned before my the bererement you know there is a thing isn't there where a bereavement can trigger a feeling of you know wanting to have children your

02:46:31 you know wanting to have children your own family and I think there was that was part of it um but I loved him and we had a very you know we had a very conventional lifestyle so why wouldn't

02:46:42 conventional lifestyle so why wouldn't you why wouldn't why wouldn't that be the next stage it wasn't that we had this kind of you know politics were quite radical, but our lifestyle was very conventional. We weren't living in a communal house, despite what he may say. We weren't living in a communal

02:46:54 say. We weren't living in a communal home. We weren't, you know, I was a teacher. He was a carpenter. We had a salary. He was welcomed by my family. My friends were having kids. It was just

02:47:05 friends were having kids. It was just the most obvious next stage. And I was aware as well that not everyone can have children. Um, and if if we couldn't have children, maybe we wouldn't be able to have them. but we'd still need a plan

02:47:17 have them. but we'd still need a plan for what we were going what we were going to do with the next sort of 20 30 plus years of our life. So, it was that conversation that I wanted to start having and that he closed down.

02:47:28 having and that he closed down. So, he absolutely knew um how you felt about having children with him at the time.

02:47:35 time. Yes. I remember when I first said it. I remember I I mean I remember in the kitchen when I first said um I think you'd make a great dad. I remember him looking gray at the idea and quite

02:47:47 looking gray at the idea and quite shocked at the idea and not very happy about it. Um, and I also remember that we once had an accident. Um, maybe it was when I remember there was a

02:47:59 maybe it was when I remember there was a bit maybe it wasn't I don't know where I my period was late and he was not happy about that the idea that and I was like it would be fine if I was pregnant it would be fine. He absolutely he was

02:48:10 would be fine. He absolutely he was washing up at the time and he absolutely did not think it would be fine. Um you say uh that he was very comfortable around children. Your niece and nephew you've mentioned children of

02:48:23 and nephew you've mentioned children of of friends. If we just look at one photo he's UCPI 37948 and it's at tab A63 of the bundle.

02:48:35 Yeah, this is another friend's child. Um, and we saw him in the in the video camcorder footage with your niece and nephew, as you say, comfortable around

02:48:47 nephew, as you say, comfortable around children. And that led to your view that he would make a good father. Yeah. I mean, I've got other video of him playing football in my brother's garden with my nephew. Yeah. He was I

02:48:58 garden with my nephew. Yeah. He was I think we know now why. Yes. You you deal with it in your statement. You you obviously later came to find out that he had children of his own

02:49:07 own um with his now ex-wife, his wife at the time, someone we're calling in this inquiry s

02:49:14 inquiry s who will be giving evidence tomorrow. Um how how did you feel um when you found out that he had his own children during the period of time he was in a relationship with you? Well, until I

02:49:27 relationship with you? Well, until I knew that, I I suspected that Mark was an undercover operative of some sort very early on, soon after he left. And in between then, sort of spring 2000

02:49:41 And in between then, sort of spring 2000 until sometime in 2011, I think I found out that he was actually married for children. In those intervening years, I told myself that I was not going to fill

02:49:53 told myself that I was not going to fill in the gaps with um with the idea that there were other women, that he could have been married. I I just wasn't going to do that cuz if what's the point? Like I didn't know. So

02:50:05 what's the point? Like I didn't know. So I had a sort of a story for myself that um he did care for me for a long time. I had a story that he loved me, that he cared for me, that somehow he had to go. he had to, you know, that the our star

02:50:17 he had to, you know, that the our star our stars were crossed and he just he couldn't do it. He had to leave. Um when I discovered that he was married with children, fortunately by that point, I

02:50:28 children, fortunately by that point, I had done I'd processed a lot of this. Um I'd met Helen, I'd met the other women. Um I had taken with others some control

02:50:39 Um I had taken with others some control over the narrative. I'd also met my now husband. I'd also had my own children. So, I was very shocked and disturbed by

02:50:50 So, I was very shocked and disturbed by it. Um, but it it I'm pleased in a way that I found out that much later in my life than at the time. I think if I'd found that out a lot earlier, I think

02:51:01 found that out a lot earlier, I think the damage would have been greater. But the reality that he was leading this double life is unbelievable. I mean the other the again an irony when when he

02:51:12 other the again an irony when when he left

02:51:14 left and I was saying to anybody who cared to listen he was a spy. I don't know if it was military intelligence. I don't know if it was MI5 he wishes or special branch I don't know what it was but he

02:51:25 branch I don't know what it was but he was an undercover operative. Uh my stepfather went to his grave saying no it was a bigger mist if anything which was in

02:51:36 bigger mist if anything which was in some way you know all of the above were true.

02:51:39 true. um going back to 1998 1999 [clears throat] then um you persuaded him to go to couples counseling with you with relate

02:51:50 with relate um in early 1999 I think um h how did that come about what what sort of conversation were you having with him to persuade him to go along to that that counseling

02:52:01 that that counseling it didn't make sense a bit like after he disappeared didn't make sense it didn't make sense that he didn't want to have children or that he wouldn't even talk about not having children and that he wouldn't have a conversation about what

02:52:13 wouldn't have a conversation about what we were going to do with the rest of our lives. Um, and I felt we needed an intervention and we needed some support with that. Um, and I suggested we went

02:52:24 with that. Um, and I suggested we went to marriage guidance counseling to relate. Um, he wasn't very happy about the idea, but he did agree. And uh I think I say in my statement, I do recall

02:52:35 think I say in my statement, I do recall on the on the very first occasion when we went literally dragging him up the road. He was not happy at all. Um but once we got in there, the person we uh

02:52:47 once we got in there, the person we uh we we worked with was very good. Well, the first person we met was not the person who then became our counselor. There was one person we met who took notes about us our backgrounds

02:52:58 notes about us our backgrounds and then we were connected with another counselor. And again in terms of like my you know quite um disturbed brain after he left. When I

02:53:10 um disturbed brain after he left. When I look back on that and the person who was our counselor, I remember her name, I remember her surname, I knew who she worked for and I searched for her. I I contacted relate

02:53:23 searched for her. I I contacted relate to talk to her. This is you know sometime after maybe for the civil case actually. So sometime after and I was told she she'd died and there's a part

02:53:35 told she she'd died and there's a part of me you know and it's is it delusional? Is it possible? I mean right now anything you know when you're in this world anything is possible. There was a part of me that thought had the police positioned her, was she actually

02:53:47 police positioned her, was she actually also um somebody working for the police so she could absorb all this stuff and it wouldn't go any further because there's no notes. I mean, they they say they destroy the notes. I'm sure they do, but um yeah, we went to counseling

02:53:59 do, but um yeah, we went to counseling for about a year. I mean, I I've got the dates of kind of a year, a year and a half.

02:54:05 half. Yes. Um, I'll come to that detail in a moment, but [clears throat] by this stage, um, if he had been in any doubt previously, Mark Jenner would have been

02:54:16 previously, Mark Jenner would have been absolutely crystal clear that you wanted to have a family with him because that was the very reason to go to these counseling sessions. Is that right? Absolutely. That was the reason we were going to resolve that issue. I mean,

02:54:27 going to resolve that issue. I mean, they they say at these counseling, you know, they're either going to resolve the issue or they're going to help you decide to split up. Yes.

02:54:34 Yes. Um at at um paragraph 4.108 of your statement, you you um note that what your diary records about how often you attended and it your diary records that

02:54:46 attended and it your diary records that you attended 13 times in 1999 from February through to November and um and then once in 2000, but I think you say in your statement that your memory is that you attended much

02:54:58 your memory is that you attended much more often than that. Is that right? Yeah, it was in the West End. It was, you know, it it became something that we did together and we'd go to the pub after and he drove there and yeah, it I

02:55:09 after and he drove there and yeah, it I I I feel like we went more often than once a month, but it was quite expensive, so maybe we went every couple of weeks or maybe we didn't. Maybe we did go once a month. They give you exercises to do

02:55:20 exercises to do and that was over a period of about 18 months, you think? I guess I think so. I mean, you know, as I say, I'm Yeah, this is 18 months, isn't it? Yeah,

02:55:31 Yeah, this is 18 months, isn't it? Yeah, it is.

02:55:32 it is. And and as you say in your statement, you were at that time in your early to mid30s.

02:55:38 mid30s. Yes.

02:55:39 Yes. Um

02:55:41 Um uh what was his attitude towards the counseling after that first initial meeting? Did did he um engage in it with you?

02:55:48 you? He did. I mean he mentioned on one occasion that you know he gave her an excuse that his father was um suffer from epilepsy and that was one of his fears of passing on epilepsy to

02:55:59 fears of passing on epilepsy to children. I'd never heard about the epilepsy before but okay. Um yeah he did engage. I mean again with hindsight I think it was an opportunity to you know

02:56:10 think it was an opportunity to you know practice a bit of role play. Um, and so far as you were concerned though, were you was your impression of him that he was working towards going to

02:56:22 him that he was working towards going to be having a family with you to essentially working towards agreeing that he would work through whatever issues were holding him back and would indeed become a father. Yeah, I think that's what I hoped. I

02:56:34 Yeah, I think that's what I hoped. I mean, you know, I can't remember the details of the sessions. I can remember what the counselor looked like and I can remember what that room looked like and I can remember where we used to park to go there. Um,

02:56:45 go there. Um, yeah, we were we were a couple who were trying to work through some issues. Yeah.

02:56:50 Yeah. And how how do you feel about him having attended those sessions now knowing what you know about him now? It's unfathomable. I mean that I just, you know,

02:57:02 you know, I use this I've used this phrase about other undercover officers whose evidence I've heard and all I can say is I just think they are emotionally hollow. I don't understand.

02:57:13 don't understand. It's like out of my ken. I can't wrap my head around the idea that anyone could do this. And one of the one of the things as well if you if you look at the groups that Mark was um engaged in, if

02:57:27 groups that Mark was um engaged in, if you look at the men who are involved in AFA and Red Action and to a degree the Coning Road Center, but more so in in those later years, they are men who he could he didn't need

02:57:39 they are men who he could he didn't need me in his relationship for those relationships. He didn't need me in his life for those relationships. um he could quite they weren't as far as I was aware they weren't men who like I don't

02:57:51 aware they weren't men who like I don't know but I'm not sure that that he they were very macho he could have said oh I've you know I've binned her off she was doing my head in she wanted kids I didn't need any of that he totally could

02:58:02 didn't need any of that he totally could have done that and so the fact that he didn't um reveals I mean I don't know what it reveals except unfortunately and I'm I'm careful with

02:58:13 unfortunately and I'm I'm careful with this but a sadistic streak I can't. In fact, my the counselor did say that um when I went to see her after he'd left, she said, "I think he's a sadist." You know, it's it's a it's it's sadism

02:58:25 know, it's it's a it's it's sadism because there's some pleasure being taken in this constant stringing along. And of course, what's happening here is however wrong it was to get involved in

02:58:36 however wrong it was to get involved in the relationship in the first place, by carrying, you know, the fleeting and disastrous trade manual reference, but by carrying it on for so long, what that what he's doing was stealing some of my

02:58:48 what he's doing was stealing some of my most fertile years. And there's often, understandably so, um deep uh upset and concern about women who have had children with undercover operatives. But

02:59:00 children with undercover operatives. But sometimes the bit of the picture that isn't seen as much is the women who've had their opportunities stolen from them to have children because these um these men took some of their some of our most

02:59:13 men took some of their some of our most fertile years. And it's only kind of circling back to you know my the Jewish community, the small London community that I've been fortunate enough to to go

02:59:25 that I've been fortunate enough to to go on to have a family and have children. But that's that's not typical of our experiences. Yes. Thank you. Um I want to move on to just ask you what your experience was of

02:59:38 just ask you what your experience was of um other types of close relationships Mark Jenner formed with people during the period of his uh undercover reporting deployment. Um from what you

02:59:49 reporting deployment. Um from what you saw, who who was he closest to um during that period of time? Well, it changed. In the beginning, he was definitely closest to Mark Metoff.

03:00:01 was definitely closest to Mark Metoff. Um, he became good friends with Bert, as we're calling him. Yes.

03:00:06 Yes. Um,

03:00:08 Um, he, you know, rubbed along comfortably with Steve Hedley. Uh, and then later he became close to,

03:00:19 Uh, and then later he became close to, um, some of the people in Red Action and AFA.

03:00:23 AFA. Thank you. uh in terms of your friends. Yeah.

03:00:28 Yeah. Um if we look at paragraph 5.2 of your witness statement,

03:00:38 uh and sir, it's UCPI 37732

03:00:45 at tab A1 of [snorts] the bundle.

03:01:02 [clears throat]

03:01:05 Um, so it's paragraph 5.2,

03:01:13 [clears throat] page 48, I'm told.

03:01:23 Thank you. And if we look at paragraph 5.2. Thank you. Um Mark was considered a good friend by one of my oldest friends from school P and her then husband P. Um I think you have

03:01:36 her then husband P. Um I think you have a list beside you or you may know from the context um who who we're talking about without naming them. Um how friendly was he with um those two individuals and how how close were they to you?

03:01:48 to you? Uh the first P is one of my oldest friends who I've known since I was about 12. Um

03:01:55 12. Um they're very very old friends. I mean they're very close old friends. And um

03:02:02 um you know they they loved him. They and I mean I remember I remember staying over at their house when their children were very little and their daughter

03:02:13 very little and their daughter wake coming to wake us up and saying to pee um Allison and Allison's still in bed with her dad. What's happen? Why aren't they up yet? Like so that you

03:02:24 aren't they up yet? Like so that you know she came into our room into the we were sleeping in the in the front room. The kid came into our front room, checked on us. So yeah, they were, you know,

03:02:33 know, and they weren't activists. No,

03:02:36 No, they weren't involved in any political groups.

03:02:38 groups. No.

03:02:39 No. Um, paragraph 5.3, please.

03:02:44 please. Again,

03:02:45 Again, you refer to some of your oldest, one of your oldest friends and her boyfriend. Again, I think you you know who's under the privacy redactions. Yeah.

03:02:56 the privacy redactions. Yeah. Um, he had a very close relationship with them as well. Yeah, they were activists. They were involved in the Colin Roach Center.

03:03:05 Center. Uh at paragraph 5.8, it'll be over onto page 50

03:03:18 here. Again, you refer to another I think of another friend of yours, someone who had you describe as a close connection with you. again under the privacy redaction, you know who is referred to in this paragraph.

03:03:30 referred to in this paragraph. And you say that you um find it odd that he doesn't uh mention that person in his witness statement given that close connection to you. Um she was a close

03:03:43 connection to you. Um she was a close friend. Why don't why do you think he hasn't mentioned her in his witness statement? She's the person in 5.3. That's the same person. I see.

03:03:52 I see. Um why hasn't he mentioned her? I've got absolutely no idea. And when he does mention her, he misspells her name. He misspells her name.

03:04:03 He misspells her name. And you I think you think that that was deliberate on his part, the misspelling of her name. Why Why do you think that? I mean, the thing about this whole experience is it it twists your brain

03:04:14 experience is it it twists your brain and so you start creating meaning where perhaps there isn't any and filling in gaps because you don't know the whole truth. But my gut feeling with this is

03:04:25 truth. But my gut feeling with this is that she was very close to me and that any third

03:04:31 any third uh UCO observing us would mention her um and then she'd be connected to me and that that would reveal me because I

03:04:42 that that would reveal me because I think he's omitting me from his reporting. And you mentioned that that he he doesn't seem to report upon you. We we don't see your name. No.

03:04:53 don't see your name. No. And the connection with you in his reporting. Why do you think that is? Because I think I mean I've got you know with all of this stuff it's a lot of

03:05:04 with all of this stuff it's a lot of supposition but I I really believe I find it incredibly hard to believe that Bob Lambert um and other managers did not know about my relationship and that

03:05:15 not know about my relationship and that they didn't know about these other relationships. And I believe they've been told don't write it in, you know, no words, don't put it in that that there's so many layers of lies and um

03:05:28 there's so many layers of lies and um fiction in some of this reporting that I think it's, you know, it's it's a bit of a nod and a wink in the corridor. Just leave her out. She's not really very involved. You just don't mention her in it because it's only going to draw

03:05:39 it because it's only going to draw attention. So, you think it was further deception on his part to hide the relationship he had with you? um to hide it from people. Well, yes, to

03:05:51 um to hide it from people. Well, yes, to hide it, but not from his I think his direct managers knew. I cannot believe they didn't know. And if they didn't know, then that's appalling in itself. I mean, you can't have it both ways. They either they either knew and covered it

03:06:03 either they either knew and covered it up and are part of the whole collusion or they didn't know and they're totally incompetent. Yes. Thank you. Uh in terms of your um friends from work, colleagues, um what

03:06:15 friends from work, colleagues, um what sort of relationship did Mark Jenner have with them? Yeah, very good. He picked me up from work lots of times. Um people liked him. You know, as I said, it was one of my work colleagues who

03:06:26 it was one of my work colleagues who said to me, "He's very good for you." Um that uh in the compilation video, he's talking to a senior manager in my school who is

03:06:37 a senior manager in my school who is from Manchester. So, you know, he he was very wellliked. He you saw him at our um party after the Offstead report. Yes. A [snorts] fancy dress party. Fancy dress party.

03:06:48 Fancy dress party. Let's look at a couple of the photos. Um UCPI 37950 at tab A65, please.

03:07:00 Yeah, that's um that's the party you're talking about. And without revealing their name, is that is that a friend from work that Mark Jenner is talking to?

03:07:09 to? It is. Yes. Um,

03:07:12 Um, UCPI 37951 tab A66, please. Same party. That's you with him. Yeah, that's me and him. We It's It's a

03:07:24 Yeah, that's me and him. We It's It's a 60s party. You can see. Hence the Hence the the fancy dress. Yeah. Um UCPI 37952 tab A67.

03:07:37 Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, you can see they're very mature teachers with that slogan after. Yes. Um [laughter] and for those who can't see the the photograph, Mark Jenner seeming to have

03:07:49 photograph, Mark Jenner seeming to have a great time in this photo. Yeah.

03:07:52 Yeah. Uh UCPI 37953, please. Tab A68.

03:08:00 Again, a colleague and friend of yours. Yeah.

03:08:03 Yeah. Um Mark laughing in the photo. Uh UCPI 37954 tab A69 of the bundle please

03:08:14 tab A69 of the bundle please again. You a colleague and friend Mark in the photo. Um I think he came on a day trip with some of your uh work colleagues to Brighton. Is that right? That's right. Yeah. Um if we just look

03:08:26 That's right. Yeah. Um if we just look at um that photo UCPI 37949 please at tab A64 of the bundle.

03:08:38 That's you and uh him in the photo in Brighton. Is that right? Yeah.

03:08:43 Yeah. And how many people were on that trip roughly?

03:08:46 roughly? Uh I think there was us two and maybe three or four others. Thank you. They would have it would have been like two colleagues and their partners I think.

03:08:58 partners I think. Um I want to move on to just a couple of um short discrete topics before we break for lunch. Um uh Mark's van. Yeah,

03:09:07 Yeah, we've seen um the red van in um some of the photos and the footage. Um what did he use the van for? You've mentioned a little bit about him giving lifts to

03:09:18 little bit about him giving lifts to people. Um were they activists? Yes. Um he was giving lifts to from the Colin Roach Center. Yeah, he gave lifts to people from the Colin Roach Center. I think with the white van, I think he probably gave lifts to people with a as well. Um he

03:09:32 lifts to people with a as well. Um he used it to transport sound systems um from for gigs. I remember him once giving Mark Thomas a lift um the comedian because we had him speak at an

03:09:44 comedian because we had him speak at an event. Am I allowed to say his name? He's a public figure, I think. So, yes, I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. Um uh so yeah, he gave people lifts, he transported equipment, he took activists

03:09:56 transported equipment, he took activists to demonstrations if if called upon. He did what anyone asked him to do. Basically, he was, you know, he was really Mr. Nice Guy and very easygoing and willing to help.

03:10:07 and willing to help. And you say you think having a van assisted him in his cover identity? Absolutely. Yes. Um can we look at the bank card discovery, please? You you deal with this at paragraph 4.98 to 4.100 of your

03:10:22 this at paragraph 4.98 to 4.100 of your witness statement. Um you found a Nat West bank card in the name M Jenner with a signature in his handwriting. Is that right?

03:10:31 right? I mean I'm you know I think it was a Nat West bank card. I'm pretty sure it was because I know Netwest was what his bank was because I used to get the statements after and I'd still got some. So but it was definitely a card with the name Mark

03:10:42 was definitely a card with the name Mark Jenner on. Yeah. And h how did you come to find it? Well, it doesn't uh doesn't necessarily reflect that brilliantly on me. I think it was at a period I mean I don't know.

03:10:53 it was at a period I mean I don't know. I've said November 1997. I don't know exactly when it was. Um I I didn't think he was having an affair. I wasn't kind of looking for something like that. I felt that he was

03:11:05 something like that. I felt that he was not nec not necessarily telling me everything. Um, and I thought, you know, maybe he was getting involved in political stuff that he wasn't telling me about. And he went to the uh local

03:11:17 me about. And he went to the uh local shops to get some breakfast for us. And he left his leather jacket uh hanging in the hallway. And um and I looked in the pockets and in the inside pocket here, I

03:11:30 pockets and in the inside pocket here, I found this card. Now, my memory of it, and I I know that memory is a strange thing, and I know that you can create false memory, and I I understand that,

03:11:41 false memory, and I I understand that, but I can only tell you what I I remember. And I suppose the significance of the memories is that because my memories aren't necessarily what I remember now. They're memories that I recorded after he left 25 years ago,

03:11:54 recorded after he left 25 years ago, which was closer to the time. Yes.

03:11:56 Yes. So my memory was that I saw this bank card in the name Mjenna in his handwriting and I wrote it I wrote it down. I wrote down the name of number of the card, the name on the card and I put

03:12:09 the card, the name on the card and I put it in a small jewelry drawer in my dressing table. And had I been a bit smarter, I would have done nothing more than that and put it back in his in his jacket and left it

03:12:21 it back in his in his jacket and left it and done some investigations then. But I didn't do that. You confronted him. I confronted him and what was his explanation and he he which is I realize now a position of submission. He put his hands

03:12:32 position of submission. He put his hands on his head and he said, "Oh my god, I've been so stupid. I can't believe I can't." And he looked really really shocked and he said he bought it off a man in a pub. Uh he'd only used it once

03:12:45 man in a pub. Uh he'd only used it once for petrol. Um and please please don't tell anyone was the big the big ask. I've been so stupid. Uh I don't want your family to

03:12:56 stupid. Uh I don't want your family to think I'm just a petty thief. Please don't tell anyone. And I loved him and I wanted to protect him. And I promised him I wouldn't tell anyone. And I never did tell anyone until after he disappeared. Um I remember cutting it

03:13:09 disappeared. Um I remember cutting it up. I think he said something different, but it's destroyed. It was destroyed. Um and that was that was it. So that was

03:13:20 Um and that was that was it. So that was how I found it. And did you believe his explanation at the time? Yeah, I did. And also, you know, he bought it off a bloke in a pub and you know, I'm not I don't know about buying stolen credit

03:13:32 I don't know about buying stolen credit cards or bank cards off men in pubs. So, what do I know? Okay, you bought it off a bloke in a pub. I mean, and you've used it for petrol. I didn't did I think at the time CCTV that's really stupid. I didn't. I was like, okay, that is

03:13:43 didn't. I was like, okay, that is ridiculous. It's not like we're The other thing it was like we're not wealthy, but we were fine. I had, you know, teachers, you know, it's okay. We were okay for money. So, I didn't

03:13:55 were okay for money. So, I didn't understand why he would have needed to do that and I accepted that it was just a stupid mistake and I wouldn't tell anyone.

03:14:01 anyone. And at this stage, you didn't have any suspicions that he was an undercover police officer and that's not why you had searched his pockets. Different suspicions. No, I wish I had. No.

03:14:13 No, I wish I had. No. Um, last short topic before um the lunch break, please. um gifts and loans. Um you you have a recollection that your mother lent Mark 1,500

03:14:26 mother lent Mark 1,500 pounds. You say at paragraph 4.105 of your witness statement. Do you remember what that was for? How it came about? I think maybe to buy the van.

03:14:37 I think maybe to buy the van. And did he repay it? No.

03:14:42 No. Uh, you also say in that paragraph that Mark's final letter mentions owing you money when he left. Did Did he owe you money when he left? No, I think that he was probably talking

03:14:53 No, I think that he was probably talking about that money for my mom. I see. Thank you. Um, sir, is that a convenient moment for a break? Certainly. We'll resume at two.

03:15:04 We'll resume at two. All right.