Final session of Peter Francis's testimony covering the psychiatric impact of undercover work, the SDS 'containment plan' run by Bob Lambert when Francis went sick, his decision to become a whistleblower after being 'blackballed' from the 40th anniversary dinner as 'disloyal', and his formal apology to the Lawrence family, activists, and women he had sexual relationships with. Francis declares the SDS was institutionally racist, sexist, misogynistic, and homophobic.
00:23:13 Good afternoon, everybody. This afternoon's proceedings, like this morning's are going to be transmitted after a 10-minute delay. Uh, as always, those with mobile devices may use them to transmit what they have heard in the hearing room after 10 minutes have
00:23:27 hearing room after 10 minutes have elapsed. Uh, they may not be used for recording or photography. Mr. a lot. Thank you, Mr. Francis. Before lunch, I was saying you've been very candid with your mental health already, but I want
00:23:41 your mental health already, but I want to give you an opportunity if you wish to tell the chairman more about the impact that your deployment has had upon you and any reflections you have about how the police could avoid
00:23:59 how the police could avoid psychiatric injury to their officers in the future. They're undercover police officers. That is so am I directing at you or forward?
00:24:10 so am I directing at you or forward? You're giving evidence to all of us, but I'm listening to what you have to say. Okay. Well, so basically the consequences of it was for me as catastrophic. It was the end of my police career as far as I concerned. Any other um posting I had, I regarded the
00:24:22 other um posting I had, I regarded the SDS as being a posting that I would have for four maybe five years. They just return and before I arrived on the SDS the squad I was on which was B squad which is the equivalent of
00:24:34 which is the equivalent of counterterrorism nowadays they were very happy I would have stayed uh S squad surveillance team wanted me uh and but really other than a very shortterm return back special branch it was the
00:24:49 return back special branch it was the end of my career so that's fundamentally I had uh complex post-traumatic stress disorder by then and this identity
00:24:59 disorder by then and this identity disorder which basically meant there are some documents ments uh that I've seen certainly I think me as a returning person uh was not the same as what before I became undercover than what I was and I became extremely difficult to work with. I no longer regarded myself
00:25:13 work with. I no longer regarded myself as a police officer and it was me myself who actually after two years trying to assimilate back in the special branch uh I realized that u you know I I was a danger to myself plus other people. I think the easiest way of describing it
00:25:26 think the easiest way of describing it is at the time I could have got a fight by myself in the lift. I remember somebody saying it to me and that's where I was. And meanwhile, the special branch was just straight back into everything. Uh I remember the ridiculous situation. They actually wanted to give
00:25:37 situation. They actually wanted to give me a gun. Uh so almost as soon as I got back, they wanted me to recclaim myself as a firearms officer. I was off because I was hit a couple of times as quite a lot the activists were by the police
00:25:48 lot the activists were by the police with these fancy new batterns. It was quite hilarious. You get whacked with those. But all of a sudden, uh, there I was. I was supposed to be baton trained as well. For me, I looked at a baton. I can only associate with being whacked
00:25:59 can only associate with being whacked with a baton. So, I couldn't actually pick a baton up and I had other anger issues, but yeah, they were quite happy. Here, go on your firearms course. And
00:26:10 Here, go on your firearms course. And it's literally beforehand. So, they took no account into how I was. There's countless examples of how angry I was, how sort of confrontational I was with the management. But literally I'd gone in, I'd changed. I just couldn't go back
00:26:25 in, I'd changed. I just couldn't go back into that place. How uh suggestions if I believe that's what you're asking is what I would suggest going forward is I
00:26:36 what I would suggest going forward is I just do not believe that police officers should be doing undercover work against political activists. I think the the state if somebody decides the state decides that they need to do it, we have the security services for that. I think there's actually something in the mindset the returning offices,
00:26:53 mindset the returning offices, you know, it's very easy to use the word like Stockholm or you've gone over. I I just don't think they're appropriate. There is something a fundamental uh that these people the vast majority are
00:27:04 these people the vast majority are trying to do progressive change and we are as the police the police is there to keep society where it is and us being them trying to do progressive change it causes some
00:27:15 do progressive change it causes some sort of mind shift so the easiest way is police officers shouldn't do that certainly uh undercover encounter terrorism and serious organized crime absolutely but I personally for that it
00:27:26 absolutely but I personally for that it should be the It should have always been the work of the security services, not the police. That's me with uh 25 years worth of hindsight. If the event I wouldn't be as bold to make any suggestions for you for your final
00:27:38 suggestions for you for your final report, but if the event it carries on and the police officers are doing it, you really need a psychiatric assessment beforehand. Most definitely. Whether or not it would have failed, I don't know. Nobody knows. You also need a
00:27:51 Nobody knows. You also need a psychiatric of the support system you have. So, if you're married, as no disrespect to my ex-wife, we she had problems, I had problems, but she couldn't give any more to look after me
00:28:04 couldn't give any more to look after me with her problems. So, had she had been assessed, I don't know how you do it, but some sort of assessment that there is some sort of proper support system and an officer just going around having a cup of tea and seeing how the family is isn't sufficient.
00:28:20 is isn't sufficient. I've been aware made aware of a document sometime in 20201 that there is an actual program whereby the uh SDS officers are being interviewed uh before deployments during deployment a certain period of time uh and afterwards and
00:28:31 period of time uh and afterwards and basically I don't know how good that is uh and hopefully that's a very very good program but I would suggest at least anything up to about two years uh post deployment uh there otherwise the other
00:28:44 deployment uh there otherwise the other thing that I found personally helped me to understand uh what happened as this is about 10 years after I left. I went on to a professional acting course. Uh last thing I ever want to do is act again. uh but on there this is the
00:28:56 again. uh but on there this is the national film and television school is a proper proper course not made up one and what struck me is that there's actual parallels with uh the the tutor there
00:29:10 parallels with uh the the tutor there was very very uh knowledgeable and she was actually saying there are actors professional actors on par with like the method actors and all this stuff who get into role and they get too much in role
00:29:25 into role and they get too much in role and can't come out and that's the first time I had a conversation with anybody who I actually thought actually she understood what there was and they emphasize onto their acting course even at this very very low level is to understand and you must keep pulling yourself away from the role and really
00:29:41 yourself away from the role and really it's as much as I can think without Mr. bar asking you some more questions to help me come along type thing.
00:29:50 help me come along type thing. The the only question I think I'd like to invite you to uh expand upon is could you help us with how much afterare you personally had and whether it was sufficient? zero is the best way of describing that as a summary and
00:30:01 describing that as a summary and basically on the SDS it was after I went out there was uh profiling uh to the names the assistant that's Fisty Golding she done it uh but I've already explained that some of the officers um still done it uh shouldn't have done it
00:30:18 still done it uh shouldn't have done it we then had somebody who I best refer to as a punishment counselor and that was basically she was an an army psychiatrist and basic Basically, if in the event of the SDS um say for example these um interactions I had with my
00:30:30 these um interactions I had with my manager were quite heated but had I crossed over further say grabbed hold of one of something done physically I know I would have seen the what we called the punishment counselor and I'm aware of
00:30:46 punishment counselor and I'm aware of somebody who was sent to go and see him but I never heard of anybody going to see him because they themselves were opening up with having problems so I had nothing whatsoever. Uh then when I came off uh there was an incident that I
00:31:00 off uh there was an incident that I couldn't remember uh that happened to me in uniform and literally as soon as I started uh back there was this upset that for 5 years I hadn't uh been able to be approached by complaints bureau over this. Long and the short of it uh they recommended that I go and see a
00:31:15 they recommended that I go and see a psychiatrist uh through it. I went back to the SDS series of conversations. isn't just one uh basically saying that they want me to go and see somebody. I'm concerned about going to see somebody outside the SDS. Can I use yours? And
00:31:28 outside the SDS. Can I use yours? And they turned around and said, "No, you can't use ours because we have to keep it secret from the police who we're using on the secret squad." Right. Fair enough. But when you go and see the Met one, you mustn't say what you did. So
00:31:42 one, you mustn't say what you did. So that was my actual welfare is they then realized there was something wrong with
00:31:56 realized there was something wrong with me. But the SDS wouldn't have me because CIB as an outside was looking into the special branch. So they wouldn't say, "Oh, we're actually using this." The names of the system is Colonel Mary Piper. Uh we won't use her. I then had to go to and I did. I entered the system sort of, "Well, what's the point?" And
00:32:07 sort of, "Well, what's the point?" And really what is the point? I was sitting there with a counselor and she goes, "Well, I know you can't tell me anything about what you did. How are you feeling?" And it was just extraordinary. I went through months of it with there's just there's nothing. So there was
00:32:22 just there's nothing. So there was nothing in place for me. Uh and that was literally until I then ended up going sick. Uh I started civil proceedings uh through I didn't want to do civil proceedings but I was sick. The uh central police federation I had to go
00:32:36 central police federation I had to go outside the branch uh because the branch I felt would contain it. So I went to New Scotland Yard Main Police Federation who actually said this is ridiculous because had you been an SO10 officer we
00:32:51 because had you been an SO10 officer we would have had some coverage for you. So I went into that they then actually and I then crossed over I went into the Tyhurst Priary uh clinic but as an outpatient always and that's when sort of the beginning of my recovery started there but that wasn't until uh the beginning of the millennium 2000. So
00:33:07 beginning of the millennium 2000. So despite having gone sick in September um 99
00:33:11 99 uh it was in the millennium those few months that all of a sudden things started to move for me. You brought a civil claim. We don't need to go into the specifics of the civil claim, but what I would like uh to know
00:33:22 claim, but what I would like uh to know is what was the reaction of your former
00:33:34 is what was the reaction of your former SDS colleagues to the fact that you were bringing civil litigation about the SDS in the corpse. Well, firstly, I was totally abandoned as soon as I went sick. So I don't know like you think you get mental illness through uh meeting people or something but other than the one officer who then
00:33:47 but other than the one officer who then also done the civil claim with me after I went sick I had no contact of all my colleagues uh so-called friends people saying friends question it I had no contact at all and that even goes unfortunate to say to Trevor Morris uh
00:34:03 unfortunate to say to Trevor Morris uh who I was very close to uh zero contact with anybody because I'd actually gone sick. So by the time uh I reached the uh civil claim, I had no input from what
00:34:15 civil claim, I had no input from what anybody's feeling about was to me cuz I was already abandoned. I've got to say it's probably no surprise to anybody in the room. There was a containment exercise around me and that was conducted by Bob Lambert. So literally as soon as I went sick and I went sick
00:34:30 as soon as I went sick and I went sick saying 2-year anniversary of my SDS that was the 27th of September uh 1999. The next day, Bob Lambert was there to make sure I was all okay, but I was aware that what they were putting around me
00:34:42 that what they were putting around me was a containment plan. And basically, he wanted to ensure that I w I was not well, but was I going to breach the golden rule and actually say this is this is what I was doing the SDS. So,
00:34:54 this is what I was doing the SDS. So, all I said to him is we're safe. We're safe. There's another officer involved in as well. And I assured him he he had
00:35:05 in as well. And I assured him he he had in a word control um he had more control of me. You had zero control of this other officer. But through me being the conduit I established to the SDS that basically both of us were safe. Both of
00:35:20 basically both of us were safe. Both of us were ill. There was no intention that the only concern they had was the media or walking into one of the solicitors here who had their own file. Like just imagine had I walked into Bindman's or something like that. Uh that's what they were terrified of. So the fact I was
00:35:33 were terrified of. So the fact I was then being contained, they gave me a good service, but I was also being contained because I was with Russell Jones and Walker, the police solicitors. Had I'd gone somewhere else, that would been almost like an attack on the SDS.
00:35:45 been almost like an attack on the SDS. So they were safe. The solicitors that you're using, you're now within the Tyerus system. You don't want to get back at us. There's nothing going on. No, you know, Bob, seriously, we we're ill. I can't speak for the other officer, but this is it. And I I
00:36:00 officer, but this is it. And I I actually envisioned three, six, maybe a year, I don't know in my head, maximum of two years that this ridiculous civil claim would work. Didn't even want to do it. I wanted an apology would happen to us. It ended up being dragged out for five years.
00:36:12 five years. And uh who I was particularly angry with, you talk about people I was angry with uh was Roger Pierce because Roger Pierce was the commander and during that period of time he would have had the
00:36:24 period of time he would have had the final say within special branch to say to the Metropolitan Police we we can't go to court and we went all the way through five years and literally the
00:36:38 through five years and literally the Friday before the Monday [snorts] uh the police capitulated because they didn't want the publicity of the case going forward. We were totally anonymized. I was officer A, officer B. We were
00:36:49 was officer A, officer B. We were anonymized. We weren't we weren't going to tell anybody. But they still feared that somehow somebody had become uh knowledgeable about this. But yeah, I felt as soon as I went sick, uh there was there was an SDS containment plan
00:37:03 was there was an SDS containment plan plan put around me the whole whole whole time to make sure that I didn't give anything out. Your litigation settles shortly before trial. Uh we understand from your
00:37:14 trial. Uh we understand from your written witness statement uh that there's a presentation of your commendation. Trevor Morris comes to that. Uh Di Lambert comes to that and there is talk at that after that event
00:37:32 there is talk at that after that event of the 2008 forthcoming 40th anniversary dinner for [snorts] the SDS. And Mr. Lambert, you've said in your statement,
00:37:43 Lambert, you've said in your statement, made clear that you would be welcome and invited to that. Slight caveat on it. He was hoping hoping
00:37:49 hoping there was that, but I'd built my expectations up as we' said, I'd been to the I organized helped organize the 25th reunion. Didn't go to the 30th because I was deployed. Uh but I went to the later
00:38:04 was deployed. Uh but I went to the later the 35th because I was already back into there. I never went to I wasn't invited to the 40th one. So
00:38:11 So the presentation has been made, the litigation is over. Bob Lambert is hopeful you can go to the 40th. How are
00:38:23 hopeful you can go to the 40th. How are you feeling at that point? Well, at that point also I was in treatment uh with a very renowned uh psychiatrist like worldrenowned psychiatrist that was dealing I'm not going to say his name because he's currently not well himself uh but he saw it as being uh very important uh to me that at the end of it
00:38:40 important uh to me that at the end of it I was sort of accepted back into the SDS uh that you know at the end of the day the only reason I'd stopped doing it was because of mental health that was the police had admit for court purposes was
00:38:54 police had admit for court purposes was directly attributed to my SDS work. So I think the fact that I would have been invited to the reunion uh I I think psychiatrically for me would have been a real settlement. Uh I think that would have allowed a shift to go forward. Closure.
00:39:12 Closure. Very much hoping so. Very very much hoping so. And then you describe in your witness how statement how closer to the time
00:39:14 time you're in contact with DI Lambert who explains to you that you are not invited. Could you help us with the terms in which he did so?
00:39:26 terms in which he did so? Yes. He he Bob being Bob what he emphasized is how very very hard he did try for me on on his behalf. So whether or not he did or otherwise and the year the term he used he wasn't himself a
00:39:39 the term he used he wasn't himself a mason but anybody who knew the police in that era or particularly the special branch was very heavily Mason dominated and basically he said that the black balls had exceeded the white balls with
00:39:51 balls had exceeded the white balls with regards to you coming out uh going going to being invited to the do
00:40:02 to being invited to the do u and did he say anything else? I I probed further. I probe further. I said, could you give me an idea, you know, like was it like a manager specifically, not being a Mason, never want to be a Mason, I don't know if one black ball
00:40:13 Mason, I don't know if one black ball means it means that's the end of you or do you need like, you know, if you get 10 but there's nine, it goes through. So I literally asked him uh is it a particular person or what otherwise? He turned around and said no. From a
00:40:25 turned around and said no. From a management perspective, there was only two people. So that's the entire management structure who would So it's everybody from the SDS from its inception all the way to there. There was actually only two pe two managers who actually wanted me to go and one of
00:40:38 who actually wanted me to go and one of them obviously was him. The other one I know I know he's covered but it is HN72.
00:40:48 Did Mr. Lambert say anything to you about why you were being black bowled? Yes. because the word he used they described me as being disloyal.
00:40:59 described me as being disloyal. Can you describe to us the impact that being called disloyal had upon you? I think the phone call ended quite rapidly with quite a lot of swearing uh to Bob at the time. I then uh I've had anger during the course of my life. Uh
00:41:14 anger during the course of my life. Uh but that anger was on a different level. Uh psychiatric terms very very limited. I have a I am the host. I am the host of
00:41:28 I have a I am the host. I am the host of me. This is Peter Frances is here. But I have a dark side, a black side. Uh, and I normally can control the host. I as the host I can control. I couldn't control the alt technical psychiatric term overtook the host and uh there was
00:41:39 term overtook the host and uh there was a battle for quite a while and then host took over. I let him then carry on and literally by the morning uh I knew that my my idea now the alt's idea uh was to
00:41:54 my my idea now the alt's idea uh was to show the uh STS what his loyalty was and um I'd read coincidentally reasonable while earlier a book by a very respected author that I respect a lot chap called Tony Thompson and he
00:42:05 lot chap called Tony Thompson and he wrote a book uh called the infiltrators about two undercover police officers an SO10 and they talked about what they did during the operations and I actually
00:42:25 during the operations and I actually looked at the book and bear in mind uh I also was given an S so 10 identity for something else but um I was surprised when I read the book at the level of information he gave out that they gave out plural there was a lot of tactical
00:42:36 out plural there was a lot of tactical stuff uh in there and so I thought well I'm not aware of these two officers going to prison because they've also breached the OSA. They they're not on the level of the OSA breaching, but they've definitely breached the OSA as
00:42:47 they've definitely breached the OSA as well. So, the next thing I literally did that morning is I uh wrote um it's an email uh to Tony Thompson's uh agent, however you do on Google. I didn't know it beforehand, Google. And then within
00:42:59 it beforehand, Google. And then within about a day, Tony Thompson, I basically said to him, are you something along the lines of are you interested? Are you interested in meeting me? Because in the infiltrators there's a book and it
00:43:11 infiltrators there's a book and it actually says something like there's no such thing as permanent undercover officers because so 10 very briefly they go in they pretend they're a hitman for a few weeks they this isn't giving
00:43:23 a few weeks they this isn't giving anything away it's no hitman for a few weeks drug dealers few weeks somebody who killed your wife for a couple of weeks and they go back to being police officers and there was just a couple of lines in there it said something like there's nobody who's permanently undercover so I approached Tony but I
00:43:34 undercover so I approached Tony but I actually approached him he then met me and there is just one thing I asked for. It was nothing to do with the money. It was the book. Uh what I said to him is I must uh have legal coverage. I want a
00:43:48 must uh have legal coverage. I want a very very good solister because the Met the Metropol Police, the SDS are not going to react to this. Well, and when I then went over and decided to do him, that was the anticipation that the Met Police were going to hit me and hit me
00:43:59 Police were going to hit me and hit me hard with a view of the OSA. I spoke to my um lead psychiatrist at the time and basically what I said to him is I would rather have two years in prison
00:44:11 rather have two years in prison uh than rather than carry on with this after this disloyal thing and he sort of he wasn't that chuffed with about it all but he could get his head around what I
00:44:22 but he could get his head around what I was trying to say and that's how I felt and to this day that's I'm saying any threats I've had I always say following
00:44:35 threats I've had I always say following threats on I've had very gentle threats uh there uh ins significant. I I and I generally felt I'd rather spend two years. It would have been solitary confinement because they would have not wanted me talking to the prison population. So, I would have been by myself and cell for a couple of years compared the rest of my life with this bouncing around in my head.
00:44:51 bouncing around in my head. You're plainly very angry at at that stage after the conversation with Mr. Lambert.
00:44:56 Lambert. Can you help us whether that level of anger has endured or whether it has fluctuated? No, nowhere near it. Nowhere near it. that was there. The events then set in motion and my we couldn't we couldn't get a book published. There's you conspiracy theories left, right, and
00:45:08 conspiracy theories left, right, and center everywhere. But my uh Tony went along to every single publisher and this is a wellpublished author and he just
00:45:21 is a wellpublished author and he just was over and over again uh the OSA were not going down there. So we ended up doing an article via the observer Sunday 14th of March 2010. Uh that that's when uh that became out and my my anger level. It was never
00:45:39 out and my my anger level. It was never levered against anybody. There's a whole series of people. For example, the psychiatric care uh that that was nothing to do with anybody. That was just poor decision- making. If anybody
00:45:50 just poor decision- making. If anybody was probably Roger Pierce I had the most anger towards because he made the case sound. But I had a huge uh difference with regard to my anger. I I still do get I still do get angry. Uh but I get angry in areas say for example that's
00:46:02 angry in areas say for example that's why I've got a counselor here. My legal team briefed you as well. Uh I would get very very angry if you carried on persistently trying to press my head uh
00:46:13 persistently trying to press my head uh to get me to one of the demonstrations I was on. I I then this is the host alt type thing. The alt was the person who was involved in these battles. I can't recall them. So if you you have very
00:46:29 recall them. So if you you have very graciously scouted around the issues for me, but had you pressed it um it's just not pleasant. So I would become disproportionately angry to you. You're a very pleasant person. I've seen you
00:46:40 a very pleasant person. I've seen you for 10 years now questioning people. But I would become that my team's seen on a couple of occasions as well. If they press too hard on an area, that's why my statement has got missing bits. It's not their fault. It's my fault I can't go there. And as soon as I start pressing
00:46:53 there. And as soon as I start pressing it, they got to deal with me getting all angry. So everybody, all right, let's not worry about that. Let's do the next paragraph. So that is me. So it's not directed at an individual. It's whoever currently wants to have a fight with me. We have seen the series of articles in
00:47:11 We have seen the series of articles in the media. We've got um evidence of your television appearances and so forth. Can you help us with the reaction of your former SDS colleagues to your
00:47:26 your former SDS colleagues to your blowing the whistle on what the SDS was doing? I the only time I actually had any contact uh like things like I was getting phone calls at home uh phone was being put down saying and they gave my children's names uh they just sort of
00:47:40 children's names uh they just sort of said you know what we're doing but we know this is your son's name and all that. I had some of that beforehand. I had a few uh Bob being Bob. Bob's far too clever to actually say, you know,
00:47:51 too clever to actually say, you know, fear the OSA. It was always along the lines of we don't know where the OSA is
00:48:01 lines of we don't know where the OSA is going to go. If you do this civil claim, we don't know where everything's going. So when I actually went over became a whistleblower, I was already so far removed from the SDS circles. I I had no interaction whatsoever. But I certainly felt that if there was any chance
00:48:14 felt that if there was any chance whatsoever that the special branch could prosecute me under the OSA, I'd been very clearly warned. My first thing, you know, you you if you were trying to prosecute me, you would have said, "Were you warned about the Official Secrets Act?" And yes, I was warned when I
00:48:31 Act?" And yes, I was warned when I joined the uh police. I was warned again when I joined the special branch. Every squad you went to, you were reminded about your role in the official secret because the same as the SDS. So, I didn't need another reminder. They didn't need to remind me because that that was that was self-evident.
00:48:46 that was that was self-evident. Was there any um reaction to your whistleblowing from the wider Metropolitan Police Service? Um no, just when the operation Hearn started, uh I had a visit from them, but that was later on. So, it wasn't
00:48:57 that was later on. So, it wasn't immediate and no, nobody came round. Uh I'm going to move on to another topic now. This is going to be a series of
00:49:08 now. This is going to be a series of miscellaneous topics um sweeping up. Uh you've given some evidence in your officer a witness statement about the SDS having a number of unofficial mottos. One of which you say was by any means necessary
00:49:24 means necessary protecting anonymity. Can you help us with uh who you got that from? Dead easy. Just conversation between me and Trevor. That's H78. There was other ones as well. I think what whatever
00:49:37 ones as well. I think what whatever field they were in, they would just sort of have the habits of their people they were out, it was only sort of conversations within the STS. So if the left were within groups that had the slogan occasionally by any means necessary. It was it was long
00:49:49 necessary. It was it was long established. It's a panther one. It was a left-wing one. Um so it it would be that it wasn't like, you know, like a t-shirt. The SDS, you know, by any means necessary will go there. But it was accepted. I think it was a quite a good
00:50:04 accepted. I think it was a quite a good way of describing what the deep swimmers were feeling when they were on the STS. Was there ever any connection made between by any means necessary in the use of sexual uh relationships with members of the public?
00:50:17 members of the public? Not specifically, but that's that whole attitude to the deep swimmers. Uh, I want to ask you now to take you back to early in your evidence when you were telling us about um the advice you
00:50:31 were telling us about um the advice you were taking on building your undercover identity. Can I ask you first of all, did Trevor Morris ever say anything to you to shed light upon whether or not he
00:50:48 you to shed light upon whether or not he or anyone on his behalf had investigated the family of Anthony Lewis?
00:50:58 the family of Anthony Lewis? No. But I'd like to say something about that in relation if I'm allowed to. But no, you there's there's an answer. The answer to that is no is clearly but
00:51:10 answer to that is no is clearly but something when I heard Trevor giving his evidence you know don't no disrespect everybody's recall seems to be a bit differently but I did find it very difficult to believe that he didn't do his own research in St. Catherine's house and somehow the senior management did it for
00:51:23 somehow the senior management did it for him. Now H&86, I can almost imagine the
00:51:35 him. Now H&86, I can almost imagine the scenario. You say to H&86, I don't want to go to St. Katherine's house to do the work. It is just never going to happen. So I don't know if if Trevor has forgotten, but he has walked around a graveyard or he has gone to St. Katherine's house or he is off the SDS.
00:51:47 Katherine's house or he is off the SDS. If you're not prepared to do that first bit of work, it it's just an inconceivable thing. And if you were to run it, you can certainly ask John Webb when he's sitting there as well. Ask John Webb. You know, you're a really busy reporting sergeant. The person in the back office is supposed to be doing
00:52:01 the back office is supposed to be doing all the rubbish jobs and he wants you to go and do the job for him. So that memory wise, I I would prefer it. I could appreciate why he may not want to put his hands up to having the identity
00:52:16 put his hands up to having the identity of this particular child. But, you know, own your mistakes. I think you move on far better if you own your mistakes. Uh your mentor, we understand it was HN122.
00:52:23 HN122. Yes.
00:52:24 Yes. Same question with HN122.
00:52:35 Same question with HN122. Did he uh ever say anything to you about whether he or anyone on his behalf had investigated uh the deceased child's family in his case?
00:52:45 case? More than just looking at the birth certificate, more than birth and death certificate. No. No.
00:52:52 No. No. You said in the course of one of your answers earlier this week um that dodgy conversations happened in Bob Lambert's back garden. Yes.
00:53:01 Yes. Could you help um by expanding upon what you meant by dodgy conversations? One would definitely be this McFersonen the whole thing going there that was that was
00:53:13 thing going there that was that was there. Uh one of them not all of them but we definitely had one there. Uh one was about the my extraction uh plan uh
00:53:28 was about the my extraction uh plan uh for my trip abroad uh that wasn't there. Just trying to think of all of them. I've probably done about three three if not four times.
00:53:36 I I can't I can't recall anymore. But basically, there's a reason that they they were uncomfortable and it coincided uh with there's another event, but it
00:53:55 uh with there's another event, but it was a big Metropolitan Police event that the Circs, the Southeast Regional Crime Squad, uh they had been they had their offices bugged uh by what was then called CIB3, the Ghost Squad that actually bugged them. This is this is known in the papers. Uh and a number of officers were arrested over it. And there was a paranoia by the SDS, once
00:54:08 there was a paranoia by the SDS, once again paranoia whether it was valid that anything too secret wouldn't be discussed there. But that was only Bob Lambert. Everybody else seemed quite happy, but Bob had another layer of security on top.
00:54:20 security on top. So just to be clear, the conversation about the Lawrence inquiry, is that relating to the evidence you gave this morning about your concerns for yourself?
00:54:30 yourself? But one of them, but only one of them. The other ones took place in the offices.
00:54:35 I asked you quite a lot of questions earlier in the week uh about your targeting. Could I zoom out please and and ask you a about the targeting of black justice campaigns in general by
00:54:48 black justice campaigns in general by the SDS? Was there anything that makes the targeting of black justice campaigns by the SDS stand out from their
00:55:03 by the SDS stand out from their targeting of other groups? Yes, it was the perceived potential for disorder that there was a different worry about whenever there was a demonstration that
00:55:16 whenever there was a demonstration that involved more black participants in it, particularly younger younger male that that was the worrying side. There was it was always a different level when you put it in. But I think that is once
00:55:29 put it in. But I think that is once again, as we said throughout last week, the racist mindset of the police.
00:55:39 Mr. Francis, thank you very much indeed for your patience with me though. That is the end of my questioning at this stage. Uh sir, may we have the usual
00:55:50 stage. Uh sir, may we have the usual short uh break to see whether there are any further applications for me to question Mr. Francis? Certainly. And then I anticipate there may be some re-examination. So yes.
00:55:56 So yes. Yes. [clears throat] Almost there but not quite. No worries. Thank you. 15 minutes.
01:17:08 I think that's a spoiler alert for a second wind. Um, Quantico
01:17:13 Quantico uh in America. Wow.
01:17:20 Wow. We understand that HN86 went to uh the United States. Did he tell you anything about what he had learned in America from the FBI
01:17:34 America from the FBI about the psychological impact of undercover deployments on undercover police officers?
01:17:48 police officers? He didn't didn't talk to me specifically about it, but he'd gone over there. Um, just put it in perspective because of the Mike Chitty saga that we've gone over there. So, he went over, he didn't discuss at length to to me, but I was certainly aware that he then spent quite
01:18:05 certainly aware that he then spent quite a considerable time constructing um like an SDS policy document that included that. And because of his visit over there, uh it certainly coincided with the appointment of Felicity, whatever
01:18:23 the appointment of Felicity, whatever her name was, uh to do the psychometric testing. Uh but, um he didn't discuss with me the ins and outs of what he discussed. Did he go before your time or after or during your time? During it. During it. Are you sure it is linked to Mike Chitty or is that just an assumption on your part?
01:18:35 part? No, he it was a definite one. It was it was because of that that and don't forget whenever it ended it doesn't matter it was it was ongoing Chitty the Chitty saga was there so he was there they also had a previous event as well
01:18:48 they also had a previous event as well which was HN4 so he had two events that was going over there for but as far as I aware it involved the Mike Chitty one
01:19:00 aware it involved the Mike Chitty one but it could have also been because of HN4 where the pressure came from. [snorts]
01:19:06 [snorts] Uh you gave some evidence when I was asking you about blacklisting. Yes.
01:19:14 Yes. About uh your sergeant in Squad going for lunch with a contact. Yes.
01:19:18 Yes. The name you wrote down was Lord Mac Alpine.
01:19:19 Alpine. Yes.
01:19:22 Yes. Lord Mal Alpine is dead. So we do not have any privacy concerns. Can you help us? Is it your evidence that your sergeant was going to meet Lord McAlpine
01:19:33 Lord McAlpine personally or not?
01:19:40 or not? Yes. And he had previously been his protection officer as well. I don't know why Lord Macalpine had protection at some point by the special branch, but he had been previously for that. But I know within the context of it all that the economics league was involved in somehow
01:19:54 economics league was involved in somehow with this as well. I I I don't know what the combination was, but I know it just wasn't for him. So, I don't know if then Macalpine gives it to that or vice versa. I I don't know.
01:20:06 versa. I I don't know. Are you sure that it was not a representative of the company, Sir Robert Macalpine?
01:20:20 of the company, Sir Robert Macalpine? I didn't go, but there's no reason suppose his officer would say to me, I'm having lunch with Lord Macalpine if it wasn't him. But I I wasn't there.
01:20:32 two specific questions now. In your rule 9 statement in previous accounts, you referred to a list of all the visitors. In your evidence on Monday, you said it
01:20:45 In your evidence on Monday, you said it was a list of all visitors not known to the special branch registry. Did you change your evidence on this
01:20:59 Did you change your evidence on this because it has been pointed out that it would make no sense to take a list of all the visitors to you and not the registry?
01:21:03 registry? No, just purely at the time making the statement I didn't include those additional words. Why would HN86 give you, an undeployed
01:21:15 Why would HN86 give you, an undeployed person in the back office preparing to deploy against anarchists, a list of names not in the registry
01:21:26 a list of names not in the registry rather than a deployed officer or a detective sergeant responsible for writing reports? I think I went over it yesterday that basically it was a menial task. It just purely was a menial task in the back office. As far as I was aware, he would have asked the various officers that I
01:21:38 have asked the various officers that I detailed yesterday to have had a look at the list uh with nothing. So I then as a menial task and also as explained,
01:21:51 menial task and also as explained, I'd been looking at those officers books because I'd been dealing with their inquiries uh for however months it was that he came over uh with the list. So all I had to do was go back through all the officers books that I've been
01:22:05 the officers books that I've been dealing with and say yeah there is no trace in these books as opposed to asking the officers. He wouldn't have given additional task to uh well tin man Bob or John Webb they were busy enough and these sort of uh menial task is
01:22:17 and these sort of uh menial task is really what the back office was. But yes there was there wasn't for me to look at there and then that was then later when I was deployed uh that was then became
01:22:30 I was deployed uh that was then became my list. But certainly earlier on there was no no reason for me to look at it for me.
01:22:34 for me. Did HN86 give you any instructions as to how to conduct the task? It's quite a simple office task. I I wasn't to contact special branch
01:22:46 wasn't to contact special branch registry because that had been done. So it's quite a simple task for me to go through the books that was there. So I'm sure it was something to the words of effect of have a look through the books in case they've missed something along that lines.
01:22:58 that lines. Sir, you will have noticed uh we had a straggler. May I ask for a further five minutes, please? Of course.
01:23:10 Straggler is about to approach.
01:33:57 [clears throat] Mr. Francis, Mr. U,
01:34:01 Mr. U, we're not quite sure. When you were talking about the S an SDS contingency plan, did you say SDS sexual contingency plan?
01:34:16 plan? No, just a contingency plan. You made a reference to Mr. Jenner's dodgy trade craft in terms which I understood you to be talking about him leaving his real credit card around correct. Yeah.
01:34:30 correct. Yeah. Did you know about that? When did you first know about that? uh the media media purely and uh to me I don't know what the date was but if somebody like Bob Lambert was aware of that uh that's
01:34:43 Bob Lambert was aware of that uh that's an instantaneous off the squad you'd be coming off the squad. I took you to your leaving card and the comment uh about them all being weary who deserve to die.
01:34:55 who deserve to die. Did you ever hear any officer talking about a deceived woman
01:35:11 talking about a deceived woman in with that sentiment, by which I mean anything to suggest that they were having sexual relations with someone
01:35:22 having sexual relations with someone essentially because they regarded them as a weary No.
01:35:31 Can you recall an occasion when you spoke to John Burke Monville
01:35:47 and you said anything to the effect to him that Mark Jenner directly targeted the Trevor Monaval campaign? No, Mr. Monival. I don't know if he's here, but he's been on numerous um events here listening to the evidence,
01:36:00 events here listening to the evidence, and he's approaches me very courteously, and I've spoken to him just because I was here, and I'm in the public gallery with with him. And he asked me directly if I ever spied on his campaign. And my
01:36:14 if I ever spied on his campaign. And my response was no because I didn't. And I just said if there was anybody in the STS, my suggestion may have been because the area would be Mark Jenner, but it was along the lines of obviously wait
01:36:25 was along the lines of obviously wait till you hear his evidence. But no, I I didn't say anything. I hope it wasn't misunderstood what I was trying to say. And obviously uh it's something that's only been rectified for this tranch. Uh but in tranch one, tranch two, I was
01:36:38 but in tranch one, tranch two, I was always sitting in the public gallery and you know I would do the same. These people are trying to get some answers to impossible questions. So I was approached by not just Mr. Monavore but other people with similar sort of questions. So I I literally I didn't
01:36:49 questions. So I I literally I didn't deflect him because I didn't want to answer his question. I deflected him with truth as in hopefully Mark Jenner will be able to answer your questions because I can't.
01:37:07 Going back to your evidence about uh the time shortly after Steven Lawrence was murdered.
01:37:09 murdered. How you gave some evidence about Mark Wodsworth being a person of in knowing that Mark Wadsworth was a person of interest. How at that stage did you know Mr. Wodsworth was a person of interest?
01:37:23 Mr. Wodsworth was a person of interest? Cuz I'm not quite sure if he's the organizer of ARA at the time of the Anti-Racist Alliance, but I was aware that he was senior in it. I can't remember if I knew that he was the
01:37:34 remember if I knew that he was the organizer, but I was aware that he was senior with within ARA. And it's that knowledge that predated Steven's murder or post-dates it
01:37:53 when Yeah. around about the same time as and so by the time he comes out the the house the time he came out the house that he was obviously known. I didn't know he'd come out the house but his name wasn't on the list. His name was on the list. Somebody must have known who
01:38:04 the list. Somebody must have known who he was cuz it wasn't one of the names I had to search. So, somebody, not me, uh, must have known who he was cuz that name wasn't on the list anymore.
01:38:16 wasn't on the list anymore. And how did you know it would have been on the there on in the first place? I didn't, but he's obviously somebody has come out the house. Uh, Mr. Kahn's name wasn't on the list. Michael
01:38:32 name wasn't on the list. Michael Mansfield's name wasn't on the list. So, somebody has already taken the known suspects type thing out the special branch.
01:38:38 branch. When you say come out of the house, do you mean there was television footage of Mr. Wsworth coming out of the house? Is that what you're saying? No, I'm presuming it's the same list of names that was given over to the branch. I see.
01:38:52 Back to Lord Malpine. Yes. Did the sergeant say anything to you
01:38:53 you uh which would shed any light upon whether Lord Maralpine wished to speak to your sergeant about political or industrial matters?
01:39:07 industrial matters? No idea whatsoever. But he gave me that list of names. So I don't know what context that names was, but it's within the economic league type thing. So I I I can't answer it. I didn't I didn't want
01:39:20 can't answer it. I didn't I didn't want to ask the sergeant a deeper question on whatever's going on. My recollection of your evidence, you must correct me if I'm wrong, is you said something to the effect that the names were people connected to the
01:39:31 names were people connected to the construction industry or something like that. Is that right? No, it's because of who Lord Macalpine was with regards to Mal Macalpine business.
01:39:44 business. The the names you were asked the name the names of the people whose files you were asked to check. Yes. What type of people were they? I presuming building because that's how it was said to me that I'm doing he's
01:39:56 it was said to me that I'm doing he's having lunch with Lord Macalpine and can you please check these names? You say presuming building. Can you actually remember? I I I certainly wouldn't have been told that. I certainly wouldn't have been told that. Here's a list of names and I'm meeting with Lord Macalpine for
01:40:11 I'm meeting with Lord Macalpine for lunch. So I I don't know if that was I can't work out why why else he might want to have a list of names but maybe I don't know want other name search in the special branch. Thank you. Those are my questions sir.
01:40:36 Mr. K your equipment all working. It is now. Thank you. Mr. Francis, I want to go back to the to to near the beginning of your evidence uh and ask you about your actual raw
01:40:50 uh and ask you about your actual raw intelligence reports. Can we bring up please paragraph 75 of Mr. Francis's witness statement which is 36012-13.
01:41:07 Um, it says, "However, our raw intelligence reports were filed away in boxes, one for each undercover officer in a safe in the back office. These have not been disclosed to me at the time of writing this statement. Can I just
01:41:19 writing this statement. Can I just confirm since you wrote that statement some two years ago, those raw intelligence reports have never been disclosed to you or as far as you know, the inquiry? Is that right? In all the documents I've looked through and all
01:41:31 documents I've looked through and all the documents I've been given for the purpose of me appearing for this inquiry, there's not a single report that I have ever personally written. Thank you. And just to understand a little bit more about the process, can
01:41:47 little bit more about the process, can we uh look next at paragraph 383 of Mr. Francis's the same witness statement, please, which is 36012-65.
01:42:01 So it's Have we got it up? Yes. 383. Um, you say there, Mr. Francis, my raw intelligence reports were ordinarily just for my reporting sergeant, i.e. primarily John Webb. I express myself in my usual way
01:42:14 Webb. I express myself in my usual way in my reports and John would summarize, cut out or reword things as he saw fit for consumption by special branch or whoever was the intended recipient of the reporting. Uh now can I just ask you it's as as
01:42:30 Uh now can I just ask you it's as as I've understood your evidence so far uh also in some circumstances he would reflect your raw intelligence in a composite report. Is that correct? Correct.
01:42:51 Correct. I I want to move then to ask you uh very briefly uh about uh your reporting on Welling I in October 1993. you were taken to a stewarding report. Uh you told us uh I think it was on Tuesday that you inputed into composite reports in relation to welling. I think you said you inputed into a pre-event report.
01:43:06 you inputed into a pre-event report. We have identified what looks like a composite postevent report which was not in your witness pack. And I'd like to have a look at that please with you. That's UCPI 25694-2
01:43:22 please.
01:43:28 Now
01:43:37 yes. Uh if we go to the top uh this does not appear to have been attributed to you but if you look at the final paragraph of the second page is that what we've got up
01:43:50 now
01:44:01 you can see there that it's talking about Kingsway antifascist group and Lewis
01:44:04 Lewis Uh, do you want to have a quick read of it?
01:44:06 it? Thank you.
01:44:21 Okay. Is it correct, and if I've got this wrong, please tell me, is it correct that you would have provided this specific intelligence section of this postelling report? Yes, I I would have done. I was the one near Lewis there.
01:44:33 near Lewis there. Sorry, I missed that. It would have been me. Yes, it would have been me. It couldn't [laughter] have been anyone else, could it? No.
01:44:47 No. Um, could I ask you specifically uh uh about the final sentence? It says the police
01:44:51 police uh would inevitably lose control and the bookshop would be theirs. What bookshop would be theirs? What does that mean?
01:45:02 that mean? as in what I tried to explain yesterday that they were certainly intent uh on destroying damaging uh that bookshop. Um as described the activists are describing it as a Nazi bunker. Um so
01:45:18 describing it as a Nazi bunker. Um so that that's what they wanted to do was destroy that bookshop. Thank you. Uh I want to go back please to paragraph 75 of your witness statement. Um, there's no need to to bring it up, but I I I'll tell you. I
01:45:32 bring it up, but I I I'll tell you. I think you've got it in front of me, but I I'll tell you. It says the final
01:45:42 I I'll tell you. It says the final reports were sent off to special branch, to be your C squad, or to the security services. I rarely had anything come back to me about my intelligence reports. I've never had any complaints or feedback that what I was reporting
01:46:04 or feedback that what I was reporting was not what they were looking for. Now, is it fair to say that you would have expected to have been told if your reporting was inconsistent with SDS practices? Absolutely. Immediately,
01:46:20 Absolutely. Immediately, were you ever asked by your managers to define or clarify further what you meant by violence [snorts] or violent or violent when necessary? No, they understood the terminology. Is that is that right? Thank you. Um
01:46:36 Thank you. Um I I I want to go back to a question that Mr. Bar has asked you uh about what has been called your smearing tasking by HN86.
01:46:49 tasking by HN86. Um Mr. bar said to you that there was a marked absence of written corroboration uh of uh HN86's
01:47:00 uh of uh HN86's tasking uh of of you. Um now you have been taken to your targeting strategy
01:47:13 been taken to your targeting strategy into the Y uh and others as devised by HN86.
01:47:16 HN86. Uh, I want to take you please to paragraph 255 of your youth UPI witness statement which is 36012-
01:47:28 44.
01:47:32 [snorts]
01:47:51 Thank you. Uh it says the only written tasking I ever received was the one document at the beginning of my deployment and a withdrawal strategy at the end. Other than that, I received no written
01:48:03 than that, I received no written taskings. Uh is that assertion still accurate?
01:48:07 accurate? Absolutely. On a related point, as I understand your evidence to this inquiry,
01:48:18 inquiry, once an undercover officer is given an overarching strategy such as that was set out in your uh targeting strategy,
01:48:32 I is it is it your evidence that you would not then be given specific speific further written taskings within what was considered to be your overarching tasking.
01:48:48 tasking. Correct. Once once they had enough to show it really was for the more senior officers to have this is where we're sending the person and then the same at the end of your time they would do one
01:48:59 the end of your time they would do one report for senior officers to say you're coming off and this is it. But that's correct. I never had a single tasking otherwise. So is it fair to say that reporting on black justice campaigns was
01:49:14 reporting on black justice campaigns was considered by both you and your managers to have been subsumed within your general tasking within the youth against racism in Europe tasking? Yes. uh in your evidence
01:49:25 uh in your evidence yesterday
01:49:27 yesterday uh when being asked about the low number of intelligence reports on black justice campaigns you appear to suggest that
01:49:40 campaigns you appear to suggest that there where there wasn't an intelligence report there was inactivity I I just want to clarify this in your witness statement and this is UCPI
01:49:52 36012-59,
01:49:56 paragraph 349.
01:50:04 You say, "Ah, it's not up yet. Sorry.
01:50:17 You're talking about intelligence reports relating to black justice campaigns here and you say um as above a large quantity of my intelligence on the demonstrations I
01:50:28 intelligence on the demonstrations I attended is also missing from my witness pack. I attended at least one demonstration in respect of each of the single issue campaign groups listed
01:50:40 single issue campaign groups listed above i.e at paragraph 324 and for each demonstration file a preassessment report prior to preassessment report prior to attending and a post assessment
01:50:52 prior to attending and a post assessment form after the event. I do not think any of these reports have been disclosed within my witness pack. I've only seen a couple of documents relating to the Winston Silkcot defense campaign and the Brian Douglas campaign and these were
01:51:08 Brian Douglas campaign and these were reports that were put to you. Can I just be clear? Are you saying you did report frequently on those black justice campaigns as per your witness statement and those reports are missing or are you saying something else?
01:51:23 saying something else? A combination of both that there are definitely uh missing reports pre and there but also if the campaigns themselves weren't doing anything and for a number of months maybe they're awaiting an outcome or some sort of
01:51:34 awaiting an outcome or some sort of process there wouldn't be anything to attend. So there's a combination of both. But yes, I had forgotten that there was when we were going through making the statement uh when I was
01:51:45 making the statement uh when I was actually asked, I kept saying repeatedly there should be more demonstration ones because I was aware I'd done a lot more. Uh I when I was looking uh towards Mark Jenner stuff, I noticed there was two in
01:51:58 Jenner stuff, I noticed there was two in there that I highlighted to my team were definitely 100% be mine and they were attributed to him. uh and I was trying to do it in the other statements. Uh so I don't know if some of my state it's like Trevor was that given that AF one
01:52:10 like Trevor was that given that AF one has nothing to do with Trevor at all. So there are some of my other ones no doubt else elsewhere but yes a combination between the two but in answer to Mr. Bar there was also certain times that the
01:52:24 there was also certain times that the actual demonstrations didn't do anything but I was certainly in a position that if I ever heard there was a demonstration or vigil I'd be able to go on it.
01:52:37 on it. Thank you. Um, the term collateral intrusion, we've heard it a few times during the course of this inquiry. Can I ask you, was this a term used by either the special branch or the SDS when you were there?
01:52:50 when you were there? So, were you going to ask me a separate question on that? Because I'd already
01:52:59 question on that? Because I'd already asked about this question. I see Mr. Bar hasn't come with that question. Did you want to ask me that way answer? No, I [clears throat] I'll listen to your answer to listen because I'd asked this earlier. I was I was aware. I'm asking you. It hadn't been covered. So, basically, um it's total utter nonsense. Basically,
01:53:22 um it's total utter nonsense. Basically, I've experienced this during the inquiry once before and this was uh the madeup. Um my Latin at school wasn't too good. It was one of the classes I didn't attend very well, but it's expos. made it up. Uh, and I've done it once before. We had it with regard to neither confirm nor deny. Now, my whole legal
01:53:37 confirm nor deny. Now, my whole legal team with us, we spent day after day at the initial hearings arguing that neither confirm or deny never exist on the SDS. We can't give these officers
01:53:49 the SDS. We can't give these officers anonymity because of that. And basically with regards to this clatter intrusion, it wasn't that. This is made up afterwards. That's never expression I heard ever in any sort of the SDS and me personally I find it themselves they've
01:54:04 personally I find it themselves they've said it's insulting but it is insulting and it's actually I when I was reporting I was focusing on whoever I was focusing on so if I'm writing reports about my attendance at just a Y event that's a Y event if I'm
01:54:20 just a Y event that's a Y event if I'm then drawing my attention I'm going on your demonstration you are not collateral. Do not don't accept the terminology. It's a police one. I am reporting specifically and definitely on you. I'm trying to find
01:54:35 definitely on you. I'm trying to find out about your campaign, who's running it, what you're doing. That's not incidental. That's me focusing. And if if any campaign if they somehow managed
01:54:54 if any campaign if they somehow managed to all join together into a campaign and it wasn't run by anybody and it became big enough an officer if those groups were all organizing across London coordinated and they weren't controlled
01:55:08 coordinated and they weren't controlled by the Y or anybody else there may have been sufficient grounds to send an SDS officer just into that campaign. I I just think it's just made up by the police and I never heard that terminology ever in the SDS. I was expected to report back on these justice campaigns, the families. That's not incidental. That's not glatter
01:55:23 incidental. That's not glatter intrusion. That's deliberate. There's no other word. It's deliberate police spying of your campaign. Thank you. Um, you've given evidence to this inquiry that whatever you were asked to do, you
01:55:36 whatever you were asked to do, you effectively provided zero intelligence on the Steven Lawrence campaign or the family. Um, uh, as there was no intelligence for you to gather.
01:55:49 intelligence for you to gather. I think you've called it negative intelligence. Um bearing that in mind, um you were shown a document
01:56:06 shown a document setting out the Metropolitan Police Service commendation uh and the reasons for it. Would you
01:56:18 uh and the reasons for it. Would you expect such a commendation to include a tasking that didn't come up with anything?
01:56:28 You were asked why doesn't it include the Lawrence family? Yes, it wouldn't it wouldn't include that, but I'd also would say that anything to do with that campaign in that particular period of time would have been too sensitive to put on paper
01:56:43 have been too sensitive to put on paper as well. But no, 100%ly right. Why would they thank me for something that I couldn't actually do? Now, uh you have provided various accounts and interviews to the media over the years, Mr. Francis.
01:57:01 over the years, Mr. Francis. Have you ever received any payment for any of these accounts? Absolutely none whatsoever. No. In and that's the TV, documentaries, programs, anything whatsoever. never received
01:57:15 anything whatsoever. never received anything and I would just like emphasize to the chair and my team can definitely uh also say this uh numerous uh media inquiries once the inquiry started under your predecessor and I have refused every single media interview feeling
01:57:32 every single media interview feeling that the right forum is here in front of you and not for me. Some of the things I've said here have already been unfortunately sensationalized already in some of the media through what I've been saying here and that's why I didn't want to say anything. It was for to give my evidence in front of you, sir, as
01:57:45 evidence in front of you, sir, as opposed to the media. But yes, correct. Not a not a single penny out of it.
01:57:57 Not a not a single penny out of it. I I I want to now um take you to one of your exhibits, please. It's exhibit PF12 which is UCPI 3606016-125.
01:58:13 Let me scroll up. Yes, Mr. Francis. Um you say in your witness statement that this was a shield uh awarded to you by MI5. Can you tell us a bit more?
01:58:32 by MI5. Can you tell us a bit more? If I'm allowed to, but basically at the end of my STS uh tour when it was coming to an end, I was presented by uh a very senior MI5 officer in thanks uh for the work that I'd done whilst I was on the SDS on behalf of the security services.
01:58:49 SDS on behalf of the security services. And approximately when was that? You say?
01:58:52 You say? Yeah, definitely before I left. to May June time 1996. Thank you. Now, Mr. Francis,
01:59:09 Now, Mr. Francis, I think you would be the first to admit that you are a complicated guy, but are you a fantasist? Definitely complex. like you were saying, you've had nearly 10 years of my company. So, I think you'll be the first at the queue to say I'm rather complex,
01:59:21 at the queue to say I'm rather complex, possibly difficult to work with, but no, I'm not. And I've had enough psychiatric care for nearly quarter of a century,
01:59:35 care for nearly quarter of a century, and I've never ever had that word given to me in any psychiatric context whatsoever.
01:59:41 It's been 15 years since you first blew the whistle and risk prosecution under the Official Secrets Act. 10 years since this inquiry was set up. You've told us
01:59:52 this inquiry was set up. You've told us about your fragile mental health. You've been publicly criticized by those you spied upon as well as numerous police officers. You know that there is
02:00:06 officers. You know that there is hostility towards you in this room and yet you've stayed the course and come here to be robustly questioned for 4 days by Mr. Bar. Why? Because the inquiry I never set out to have an inquiry formed. Literally was this is my story and then leave. Uh but
02:00:23 this is my story and then leave. Uh but once the inquiry was set up, I felt as I didn't even think 15 years later I'd be the only whistleblower. But as the only whistleblower, I felt my duty is to stay
02:00:35 whistleblower, I felt my duty is to stay with the course that the day will arrive that has done this week that I appear for you and give you my evidence. So that's why I've stood with it and I'm here. I did think on Monday as a joke to my team. uh would have been hilarious if
02:00:46 my team. uh would have been hilarious if I had also got an aircraft and took off. Having done four days of this, I think I would have preferred to have got on that airplane and also gone away. But yes, I I did stay the course and I will also
02:01:03 I did stay the course and I will also stay to the end of the course and I read your report and available if you wanted anything else off me uh during this period.
02:01:08 period. Now Mr. Francis, those are my questions. I understand you wanted to say something else to the chair. you've done the vast of it, but basically what it is is just if I'm
02:01:19 basically what it is is just if I'm allowed to just something very minor and the only reason is my team can verify because they've already had the media requests come through. So it's just to do with the media and if I don't say something here I'm going to have turning up my house again. Uh the other reason
02:01:33 up my house again. Uh the other reason for never whistleblowing is uh this is I don't know how low a celebrity status goes Z sort of Z 10. I'm one of them and I do not want that at all. But if I
02:01:44 I do not want that at all. But if I don't say something here, uh they're they're going to pester me to say something until I go otherwise. So purely what it's going to say very very briefly is uh that I don't want to be
02:01:55 briefly is uh that I don't want to be contacted by the media at all and I've got absolutely no intention unless there's any media. I've got no intention of saying anything whatsoever further elaboration of what I said or anything else. Uh this for you sir and
02:02:06 anything else. Uh this for you sir and you sir to only ask me. Uh I'm sure you do not any need any help by me appearing on any TV programs and saying I think the chair should do this or otherwise. So I'm going to remain totally until
02:02:23 So I'm going to remain totally until your final report is there and um that's where I feel I think you're more than able to come up with any conclusions without me helping you and the media. So no more media contacts to the reports things. Then most importantly what I
02:02:34 things. Then most importantly what I really need to do is uh I need to make sure that my apology uh is uh through and through. So my
02:02:45 uh is uh through and through. So my first apology is to the dead children's family that the identity uh that I personally took and there's no
02:02:52 personally took and there's no justification so I'm not getting into it and keeping it short. as well. I'd like to make an apologies as well to the Lawrence family and uh this is the entire family because I noticed that there's not a lot of mentions but Steven also had two siblings and so uh that's
02:03:03 also had two siblings and so uh that's another factor. It's the whole Lawrence family. I'm apologizing to for what I did which obviously includes Baroness Lawrence, Sir Neville Lawrence and also himself somebody who really has been overlooked a lot of this is Sir Dwayne
02:03:15 overlooked a lot of this is Sir Dwayne Brooks. So that's an apology from that side of there. [sighs] Also all the black justice campaigns because Steven Lawrence is very important but we
02:03:27 Lawrence is very important but we mustn't forget those campaigns as well and I did just write here but we have covered it is do not believe for one minute do not accept that you were collateral intrusion. You weren't you were deliberately spied on. I'd also like to apologize to all the activists. Um I felt that you were you know troskus you're trying to overthrow the states
02:03:41 you're trying to overthrow the states and all the palava that we've heard. So I felt that I was actually doing the right job. What I apologize for is the fact that some of you your lives were affected and I've spoken to some of the people I'm saying in the public gallery
02:03:52 people I'm saying in the public gallery uh and certainly through blacklisting or aka vetting uh that I may have been part of has affected your lives. I'd like to apologize uh for that as well. And then
02:04:06 apologize uh for that as well. And then obviously uh with regard to as well like to apologize to the women that I personally had sex with in person deployment. There's no excuses. Uh it's easy to come up with excuses, but
02:04:19 easy to come up with excuses, but basically I shouldn't have done it. Then we're getting on to just very quickly, I've been interviewed by Mr. Bar over the course of four days, an experience that I hope to never relive in my entire life again, but four questions that I
02:04:34 life again, but four questions that I was hoping Mr. Bar might have asked me. And I can certainly understand why he hasn't asked any other STS officers managers uh the same questions uh because I think they're in what I would call as collective denial. But basically had Mr. uh Bar asked me the following
02:04:48 had Mr. uh Bar asked me the following questions. When you were employed in the SDS, the special branch, did you think the Metropolitan Police, the SDS was institutionally racist? The answer to that would have been yes. Were they institutionally sexist? The answer would have been yes to that. Were they
02:05:00 have been yes to that. Were they institutionally misogynistic? Yes, they were. This is includes me. I'm not
02:05:09 were. This is includes me. I'm not rowing myself out of any of this at all. Were they homophobic? Yes, they were. And it's all four absolutely clearly through and through. all four and basically the only other area that's there is uh I have been a whistleblower
02:05:20 there is uh I have been a whistleblower reluctant to the magnitude it's actually reached it was going to be my story and no other part of the story that was going to be there but what I to this day it was only two years ago and my team can confirm this because they've done a lot of work for me to contact the
02:05:31 lot of work for me to contact the Metropolitan Police asking for them to confirm that the OSA would not be used
02:05:42 confirm that the OSA would not be used against me so it took 13 years for them to actually say finally that you won't be prosecuted. I've got a brilliant legal team. From the first day I walked in, they've been looking after me and they kept reassuring me that I wouldn't be prosecuted. However, that's quite a strain.
02:05:54 strain. So,
02:05:56 So, I think we're there. Thank you very much. Uh sir, you may have questions.
02:06:12 have questions. I have no questions of you. You've given evidence over four days with clarity and perseverance. I'm grateful to you for doing so.
02:06:13 doing so. Sure.
02:06:19 Sure. I know the um strain that it is imposed upon you. I know notionally you're here under compulsion, but I do I have as I've listened to you understood that you are trying to do your best to
02:06:35 you are trying to do your best to fulfill a public duty. I acknowledge that. I'm grateful to you for it, sir. Thank you. We will resume on Monday at 10.