Peter Francis (HN43, cover name Peter Johnson) gives testimony about his deployment as an SDS undercover officer from 1993-1997. The testimony covers his sexual relationships undercover (both with activists and non-activists), his concerns about the Stephen Lawrence inquiry revealing SDS involvement, his unauthorized trip to Spain during exfiltration, and extensive discussion of sexual misconduct by SDS officers. Francis admits to multiple sexual encounters while undercover and discusses the culture within SDS that enabled such behavior.
00:27:56 Good morning, everybody. Today's proceedings are being uh broadcast, but after a 10-minute delay, those with mobile devices may use them to report what they've heard in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed.
00:28:12 but only after 10 minutes have elapsed. Uh they may not be used for recording or photography. Uh again, as has happened uh on all three days in which uh this witness has been giving evidence, may I uh thank those in the public gallery for
00:28:29 uh thank those in the public gallery for their silence and ask that it continues. Thank you, Mr. Bar. Thank you, sir. Mr. Francis, I would like to start by clearing up one point from yesterday. Yes. Just to be clear, did you or did
00:28:40 Yes. Just to be clear, did you or did you not get close to Michael Mansfield King's Council? Not in the slightest. Can I move on Mr. Mark from yesterday? It's just a question from Yes, it's related and because the chair has drawn
00:28:52 related and because the chair has drawn particular attention that he wants help with it. You with your question, I'm very very sure you're going to ask me, but can I just double check on this particular issue? Can I just send that through
00:29:00 through to you to ask cuz I know the chair's drawn attention but he won't help specifically with this area.
00:29:06 area. Just overnight thought time.
00:29:12 Thank you.
00:29:26 If you could show that to the chairman, please.
00:29:26 please. Thank you.
00:29:32 Thank you,
00:29:41 Mr. Francis. The Steven Lawrence inquiry was announced in July 1997.
00:30:00 Can I ask you first of all what was the reaction within the SDS as a unit when that announcement was made? Surprised it hadn't happened earlier. There was a lot of talk within the STS
00:30:19 There was a lot of talk within the STS um concerns raised earlier far earlier. I can't exactly say when uh that there there is almost an inevitable feeling not necessarily a public inquiry but some sort of major examination into the police failings. uh from the undercover
00:30:38 police failings. uh from the undercover perspective when I was out there uh this was certainly uh amongst the activists that there was from them it was more certain it was going to be a public
00:30:48 certain it was going to be a public inquiry and I can only go back to my own experience of whistleblowing here after I started a whistleblowing there was a momentum that no matter how many different inquiries the police try to squash this all down that inevitably something was going to happen and The word public inquiry to me was certainly banded uh far earlier on than this was
00:31:03 banded uh far earlier on than this was called and was it drew exact parallels. So the SDS was not surprised in the slightest. There was certainly a long long timeline than buildup to it.
00:31:17 long timeline than buildup to it. Did it prompt any adverse comments about uh Baroness Lawrence or Dr. Lawrence? No.
00:31:19 No. Dwayne Brooks? No.
00:31:24 No. Can I move now from the unit's reaction to your reaction? What was your feeling upon the announcement of the inquiry?
00:31:42 upon the announcement of the inquiry? It was confirmation to me um of something I'd expressed earlier to my management that it wasn't definitely that the public inquiry was going to happen. it was if I I left the unit and really by the time they were talking
00:31:53 really by the time they were talking about me going off the unit which was as we discussed yesterday sort of about the September uh 96 uh marker
00:32:08 uh marker I had concerns feeling that there was going to be some sort of inquiry how were they going to deal with what they knew that I had been out in these campaigns. So, uh, from from mine to me,
00:32:23 campaigns. So, uh, from from mine to me, it was an additional heightened concern, but I'd already touched base. Sometimes they're so myopic for the unit. They're not looking at the
00:32:36 unit. They're not looking at the individuals. And I felt that I I really had to look after myself because I started to get the feeling that the the looking after me was not as much as a priority as looking after the SDS. the way I was being treated when I was
00:32:47 way I was being treated when I was coming off was confirming that to me. So, what were you concerned might happen to you as a result of a public inquiry? That
00:32:59 That my role
00:33:02 my role that I'd been undercover into not going to break it down. I felt that I was the undercover targeting of the
00:33:14 I was the undercover targeting of the black justice campaigns would come out or possibly should come out from what I was doing. I I was we've mentioned already there was this this anger anger side to me as well going on
00:33:28 anger anger side to me as well going on at the same time. So I had a I had a lot of confusion the feelings about whether or not they should know or they shouldn't know. But can somebody make sure that I'm actually be going to be okay if if if it became knowledgeable that me but it wasn't just me. I'd put
00:33:45 that me but it wasn't just me. I'd put the aspect of Trevor Morris, the actual black undercover officer as well. So
00:33:46 So would it be fair to say that your concern at that time was that your cover would be blown? My unfortunately that's just me as a human being. My failing is it's me
00:33:59 human being. My failing is it's me first. So there definitely was a concern for me. Yes. Did you speak to Bob Lambert about that? Yes.
00:34:05 Yes. What was Bob Lambert's reaction? Pretty much. Um, you know, nothing will come out. It's the SDS and his I can't we're going to get there. The obsession with nothing from the SDS. He had his
00:34:17 with nothing from the SDS. He had his golden rule uh that nothing will ever come out from the so he was very very much against it.
00:34:28 much against it. Did you speak to DCI Edmonson about it? Yes, but um no disrespect to him. The management ability was I put more faith in Bob Lambert, but yes, I did mention it to him. His was along the lines of
00:34:43 it to him. His was along the lines of dismissive, a dismissive sort of Yeah. that that nobody's ever going to find out of it. It's impossibility. Nobody's going to find out of it. And at the time, I sort of accused of paranoia. I think some of the statements that I've said here now reflection on it the
00:35:00 said here now reflection on it the thought what was maybe happening to me in the Y camp what might happen to me elsewhere maybe that was heightened paranoia so I was accused of being a bit over paranoid with regards to this coming it basically it couldn't come out
00:35:14 coming it basically it couldn't come out were you satisfied with that answer no I wasn't did you go up the chain of command yes I did
00:35:20 yes I did at super the next level up is superintendent yes Did you speak to a superintendent? I I I attempted to and the actual superintendent who come out was not the
00:35:34 superintendent who come out was not the one I thought would come out and the one I was is he's is not covered at all cuz he's given evidence here. The one I thought I was going to see was superintendent Docker and which superintendent? When you say come out, does that mean the superintendent came to you? Yeah. Yes. Sorry. To the SDS. I couldn't go into the yard. We're forbidden to go to the yard. any any meeting always had
00:35:48 to the yard. any any meeting always had to be conducted uh either at safe house or occasionally at Bob Lambert's house as well. So yes, when I mean he came out and when he came out it actually was H86 which uh I I I I knew that H86 would
00:36:06 which uh I I I I knew that H86 would definitely it was a pregone pretty much conclusion that he would definitely vy with Bob Lambert and Keith Edmonson. Eric Docker on the other hand um he he's a person who if you could convince him of something that was really
00:36:18 of something that was really fundamentally right I think he had a different perception a very high view of Mr. Docker, but I was unaware. The
00:36:31 Mr. Docker, but I was unaware. The senior management seemed fluid. I was never quite sure who was in charge outside the branch. So when they actually said, "Oh," and it was Eric Doc, I don't think I'm giving anything away. He was ill, seriously ill at the time. And all of a sudden, the next
00:36:43 time. And all of a sudden, the next minute out comes H&86 to deal with it. But I'd already had runins with HN86 about my uh withdrawal. So me and him were not exactly on best speaking terms. Anyhow,
00:37:00 did you meet HN86 with the knowledge of the SDS managers Edmonson and Lambert? They were there. They were there. So the three of you meet. Yes.
00:37:08 Yes. What is HN86's reaction? It was quite a heated discussion again. I think they decided that I was becoming
00:37:21 I think they decided that I was becoming difficult and they took it maybe there's a degree of truth truth into it that actually I was reacting this way be because I was coming off the unit and if I was on the unit then you know I'd presumably be happy type thing and it
00:37:34 presumably be happy type thing and it sort of got into this sort of um I don't know
00:37:36 know it's so difficult looking back on it were they right but it felt to me I was trying to do it to make sure I was okay when I came off the unit but I know I definitely was saying as well that if I stayed on the unit I could manage I
00:37:50 stayed on the unit I could manage I could manage the situation better by knowing uh what was going on. How was was it left at the end of that meeting by which I mean what did HN86 say he was going to do?
00:38:04 say he was going to do? No chance whatsoever was this going to happen.
00:38:13 this being uh your existence as an undercover officer being declared to the inquiry.
00:38:18 inquiry. Yes. As in in that particular point, we weren't aware of who the inquiry chairman was going to be. It was just the fact that inquiry was definitely happening. But me being me, I wasn't
00:38:30 happening. But me being me, I wasn't happy with that either. You know, when I have an argument with somebody, uh it does tend to make sure I do the last minute to entirely buck my entire life up. I tend to have that tactic. So I carried on and demanded to see the next one up uh the line of command and uh
00:38:43 one up uh the line of command and uh that was uh can say his name. That's commander Pierce. But commander Pierce once again is as everybody knows he's a former SDS officer and he makes Bob
00:38:58 former SDS officer and he makes Bob Lambert's golden rule as flexible. Roger Pierce's
00:39:02 Pierce's is concrete. There is nothing coming out about the SDS anywhere. Once again, I think it was a foregone conclusion, but I used the same meeting uh because uh Roger only came out one to also deal
00:39:15 Roger only came out one to also deal with my other grievances was which was me coming off not going on to the surveillance you unit as well. So I actually used it as in one big meeting sort of to clear every everything up entirely.
00:39:36 entirely. If your concern was about being exposed and you had been told by Bob Lambert, DCI Edmonson
00:39:42 and H&86 categorically that it wasn't going to come out. Why did you need to go further up the chain? It's because uh Roger uh Pierce until
00:39:53 It's because uh Roger uh Pierce until that particular discussion I I held his view in high high regard. So I wanted to speak to had they mentioned uh some
00:40:07 speak to had they mentioned uh some other there seems a unified look at the STS from the management's perspective there wasn't within the branch there was certain managers I can even write down one for definitely who actually disliked intently the STS uh they were aware from
00:40:19 intently the STS uh they were aware from a management perspective the problems we had had and they disliked the SDS it was almost they needed any excuse to almost try to close it down so I had one
00:40:31 try to close it down so I had one manager particularly had been there, I wouldn't have even raised it any further. So I felt by speaking to Roger that I could try as hard as I possibly
00:40:45 that I could try as hard as I possibly could. But I also felt that because I'd raised it up to commander level, if in the event something did go wrong with regards to the subsequent named McFersonen inquiry did find out about me, I felt although I was aware nothing would be recorded, I felt that because
00:40:56 would be recorded, I felt that because I'd queried it enough with high enough, they would then be forced to look after me more had I'd not erased the issue.
00:41:13 me more had I'd not erased the issue. And what were you positively were you positively asking for anything from Roger Pierce? Yes. That basically that he is aware of my concerns and if it turns into a
00:41:25 my concerns and if it turns into a public inquiry that he needs to have a serious think how we're going to deal with our aspect the SDS. I wasn't aware at the first conversation with Roger Pierce who the chair was going to be but
00:41:40 Pierce who the chair was going to be but then in subsequent cons conversation the conversation really lurched towards me basically saying that the chair the the you don't know who the chair are say the chair is a multi-panled from the
00:41:51 chair is a multi-panled from the community which I know a lot of people would really like I personally would not have asked for the STS to be aware I I
00:42:02 have asked for the STS to be aware I I didn't want to tear the unit down. That wasn't my intention. It was looking after me, but I still was a 100% committed SDS officer. So, when it became aware that it was Sir William
00:42:14 became aware that it was Sir William McFersonen uh as a former SAS command or whatever his career was, I don't entirely know that to me as a person who is within the system that could understand the concept of secrets. So
00:42:28 understand the concept of secrets. So actually when I became aware it was him I actually thought then we could have like an unofficial question to him within your remit does it fall under your guise of us and I I didn't know
00:42:39 your guise of us and I I didn't know anything about public inquiries I've know more now than I ever want to know ever again but I didn't really understand that there is so much secrecy capability within a public inquiry I I
00:42:51 capability within a public inquiry I I didn't even realize that it just purely was and somebody the judge who's here uh he's a man also who understands secrets.
00:43:07 he's a man also who understands secrets. So if we were to say to him look this is the judge himself can make the decision about this and me I am then protected but actually Trevor Morris is protected as well and I didn't have the conversation with Trevor Morris but I
00:43:20 conversation with Trevor Morris but I still had a very close bonding to him and a thought for him. Can I just be clear? Once the identity of the chairman of the Steven Lawrence inquiry had been announced, did you speak to any senior managers again about your protection?
00:43:34 managers again about your protection? Roger Pierce and Roger Pierce only. And I also run through Bob Lambert again by
00:43:43 I also run through Bob Lambert again by then Keith Edmonson. Sorry, I'll slow it down. Bob Lambert for definitely. I had another chat with uh Roger Pierce, but that was connected with other issues. That wasn't just solely. I had returning problems in the unit that I went to caused by me again. But I also had a
00:43:56 caused by me again. But I also had a chat with him about he wanted to have a chat with me about it. So I had a chat with him. I raised it then. So I then knew that. But that's later on. That's when I was back back into the unit which I was there March uh 98 onwards. So
00:44:09 I was there March uh 98 onwards. So sometime after that but Bob Lambert had raised when he came around to see me then I was then aware the chairman the same idea. Roger Pierce Keith Edmonson by then had retired so I didn't speak to him and I did not know
00:44:27 didn't speak to him and I did not know uh the DCI in 58 I didn't know him I I I didn't know him he's about a week there so I didn't raise the issue with him either
00:44:28 either what was what did you did you ask detective inspector Lambert to do anything
00:44:42 to do anything I was well because I ended up having a discussion with Roger Pierce it was evident
00:44:45 evident that Roger Pierce and Bob Lambert had spoken about the issue and I got the feeling this is almost sort of turning like in a containment plan uh to make sure that uh they sort of quelled me
00:44:57 sure that uh they sort of quelled me down and when I spoke to Roger Pierce it was done on the basis don't you worry about it I know what your concerns are and if you were to turn around to me now and say there actually is a piece of paper that there was a secret meeting before the chair it wouldn't have
00:45:08 before the chair it wouldn't have surprised me I wasn't given a yes I wasn't given a no but I was certainly given in an uncertain terms of uh that's enough. This has gone as far as but I
00:45:21 enough. This has gone as far as but I was also told that my cons and I don't know if my concerns were then met and what they meant to me at the time was H81
00:45:31 H81 was in the inquiry looking out for SDS stuff but I don't think so because he wasn't there enough. My my feeling is that there would have been a special branch officer throughout the proceedings and the public inquiry cuz this is preyoutube. You couldn't watch
00:45:44 this is preyoutube. You couldn't watch it and they were looking out to see if there's any suggestion anywhere with regards to the STS cuz I was assured by Roger Pierce that if there was any concerns whatsoever, it would be dealt with and I would be looked after. So,
00:46:00 with and I would be looked after. So, and that was a guarantee from him and I actually I let it lie totally. I I wouldn't have gone anywhere else. I would never left the branch or it's ridiculous concept because I was totally faithful to the SDS. Uh but I was upset with them, but I was still totally
00:46:14 with them, but I was still totally faithful to them. But I had the feeling that I'd gone as far and I felt I was all of a sudden I was covered. So I was satisfied that I was covered.
00:46:27 satisfied that I was covered. And can I take it from your answers? You don't have actual knowledge one way or the other about whether the Steven Lawrence inquiry was informed about your deployment or Trevor Morris's or HN81s.
00:46:38 deployment or Trevor Morris's or HN81s. Nothing whatsoever. And but I would like to say I don't think that and at no stage did Roger Pierce then say to me, "Oh, whoever they are, you get confused with the AC's, assistant commissioners
00:46:50 with the AC's, assistant commissioners or whatever." He didn't take it. He did not say to me he had taken out the branch either. I can't name anybody else he may have spoken to. Commander Moss. Yes.
00:47:01 Yes. Sat above
00:47:04 Sat above Chief Superintendent Pierce. Yes.
00:47:11 I my understanding of your written evidence is you did not speak to Commander Moss. Correct. Was that because you were satisfied that you had the cover you needed from Chief Superintendent Pierce or was it for some other reason?
00:47:30 or was it for some other reason? About 9/10 that Roger Pierce had me covered. Uh, but Commander Moss was not one of those who was anti-SDS, but he didn't need another crisis if I was giving him one to really look at what the SDS was doing. So if Roger Pierce was higher than the other way
00:47:45 Pierce was higher than the other way round, Mr. Moss was below Roger Pierce, uh I would have not have spoken to Commander Moss or whatever it is, you get confused with the ranking structure. I would have gone to Roger. No, I I
00:47:56 I would have gone to Roger. No, I I would have felt I was being disloyal. He would have been actually now you said his name and you wouldn't need me to write it down. That's what I would have had on the bit of paper. But I've also got another one who also I wouldn't have gone down. It's me being loyal to the
00:48:11 gone down. It's me being loyal to the STS, stretching as far as I can get. But Commander Moss, I think, may have had a different reaction to the unit.
00:48:18 Had you up to this stage been going to any annual reunions, not a Christmas party as such or anything like that, but any annual reunions of the SDS?
00:48:29 any annual reunions of the SDS? There there is no such thing as an annual reunion in those days. Yeah, there's no such thing. Do you want me to go a little bit further? No. Um there is
00:48:36 there is there's no annual there's every five years. There's a total devoid of annual reunions. Well, there was no such thing. There was a 5year reunion.
00:48:49 There was a 5year reunion. There was even that if could you want me to go there or or not? So basically when I was in the back office is the first time they had a reunion. So the 25th anniversary is when I helped do it with H&86. This is why I know a lot more
00:49:00 H&86. This is why I know a lot more officers because he as I was sending out the invites me being like nosy intelligence gatherer I was saying oh who's this then he had given me the story of the officers I was inviting and coming along but that was the first you
00:49:13 coming along but that was the first you there may have been earlier 10th but the H86 he didn't say that it was the 25th thereafter it became a five-yearly cycle what what I'm exploring Mr. Francis, is this you say uh you have said in the
00:49:30 this you say uh you have said in the past that you worse to the effect you didn't trust trust Moss because he hadn't been in the SDS. Did I say that? Uh this inquiry knows that Mr. Moss was one of the very first UCOs in the SDS
00:49:41 one of the very first UCOs in the SDS and that he was head of the SDS in 1980. Yes.
00:49:47 Yes. Can I take it that you did not know that at the time? No, I was aware of it, but I think you're beginning to get the feeling that certain SDS officers done SDS work at different levels and no
00:49:58 SDS work at different levels and no disrespect intended to Mr. Moss, but he was regarded as a very light swimmer almost didn't bother to get the swimming pool. So when he is looking at the SDS, he is looking from the perspective of a
00:50:11 he is looking from the perspective of a very light swimmer. Some of us who swam a little bit more deeper, probably too deep for me personally. Uh, so he the the criticism that Bob Lambert would lie and Roger Pierce would lie is that somebody like Commander Mi Moss has not
00:50:24 somebody like Commander Mi Moss has not got a clue what the SDS basically really did.
00:50:32 did. Can I move now to the next stage of your exfiltration plan? There was a plan in place for you to go to roads, wasn't there?
00:50:44 to roads, wasn't there? Yes, there was. Well, there was there was a plan to go to Greece and then my my final extraction would be in roads with at that particular point an unknown cover officer.
00:50:58 cover officer. And am I right to understand that in the result you did not go to Greece as part of your exfiltration strategy at that stage?
00:50:59 stage? In one word, no. And what you did do is you went you crossed the channel and made your way to Spain.
00:51:12 Spain. Can am I allowed to go back or do you just want a yes or no to that one? If you give me a yes or a no and then we'll we'll explore the detail. Correct. Totally correct.
00:51:28 Correct. Totally correct. Can you help us first of all with how it comes about that you do not go to Spain but you cross the channel? I I did go to Spain. I didn't go to Greece.
00:51:34 Greece. Sorry. You didn't go You don't go to Greece. You cross the channel. Yes. The original plan was uh that I would be sewing this uh the activists
00:51:48 would be sewing this uh the activists know this wellworn tale of upset in your life that everything's collapsing and it's all going wrong. I couldn't faint uh depression and too much too much upset but I had that it was going very
00:52:04 upset but I had that it was going very very wrong in my personal work life that was there. So I started to mute that I was leaving. Then I had a couple of people who in the months to me leading
00:52:15 people who in the months to me leading up basically expressed to me that what a jolly good idea it would be to coincide the summer holidays with us all going with you. So I've done a bit of a jolly. So then I'm trying to extract myself somehow to say I'd rather be by myself
00:52:31 somehow to say I'd rather be by myself when I leave. So I hinted at the office to say and it was a plan that I was definitely going to go to Greece by myself. I'd given up the school stuff I was going but all of a sudden I had a couple of activists which later turned to be three but they're people on the
00:52:43 to be three but they're people on the periphery of the activism just basically friends in a better word that I had. And as we got closer to the extraction,
00:52:54 as we got closer to the extraction, my own feeling was this just didn't look right that I'm saying I'm going that these people wouldn't participate. I run this past the main person I always run thoughts by. It was obviously Bob
00:53:07 thoughts by. It was obviously Bob Lambert. He has a degree of flexibility that basically said, "Yes, that seems all quite quite reasonable that you're going to take your activists with you." And he says, "Sort of what time period are we thinking about?" about I go was sort of about a month. It was a bit of a
00:53:19 sort of about a month. It was a bit of a sharp intake of breath that he felt that was quite a long time but it was only done from his perspective that from a managerial point of view they have to
00:53:30 managerial point of view they have to provide or they don't have to provide they should provide supervision for that. He then took it up further uh DCI Keith Edmonson who sharp in take a breath as well and his argument was
00:53:46 breath as well and his argument was exactly the same. you can't do that long because we can't provide you management coverage. Me being then, I pointed out to him a number of other instances where I was aware that undercover officers had gone abroad and the ones the SDS
00:53:58 gone abroad and the ones the SDS management's quite like Jolly, they were always there for, but I actually gave them proof which I won't go into here. Uh well, there's one definely HN1 Matthew Raina that he wasn't constantly supervised in France. There's other
00:54:13 supervised in France. There's other examples I won't go into, but I gave them a number of concrete examples pointing out that this wasn't quite correct. Once again, me being me, it arked up and this is all in the same period of time that we're having the other arguments and HN86 came along,
00:54:30 other arguments and HN86 came along, stamped down uh his authority again. But actually, I was most upset I was not that upset with H&86 because I almost knew he'd do it. I was actually more
00:54:42 knew he'd do it. I was actually more upset with Keith Edmonson because as the DI DCI in the unit, he'd then let me down twice as a DCI in the unit. He should have insisted that he had done the preparation work. He he'd actually gone out to the surveillance officers and said, "Do you mind Pete Francis
00:54:53 and said, "Do you mind Pete Francis coming on the unit?" And they said, "Yes, we can have you." And he didn't insist enough on my behalf as the DCI. And then lo and behold again the only
00:55:08 And then lo and behold again the only reason I'm doing this elaborate off plan taking these people with me is for the benefit of the unit and the fact that their four weeks didn't align to you should have managers but actually they don't always send managers out there. I
00:55:21 don't always send managers out there. I actually felt that I was upsetting again HN86 and he wasn't looking at it. So then we get back to me. Me and Bob Lambert agreed between us that I would take my own annual leave.
00:55:36 that I would take my own annual leave. So it was me taking my annual leave and he would be the unofficial backup the same as he was officially in Germany like no help because he's in a Bavarian hotel and I'm in a camp. to the same
00:55:48 hotel and I'm in a camp. to the same scenario, but he would be flexible from England and he could get over quite quickly if it all went Pete Tong somewhere when I was abroad. So I felt there was coverage and my level of coverage.
00:55:55 coverage. Can can I just ask a couple of questions? Can I have brief answers just to confirm I'm understanding? Sir,
00:56:08 Sir, so you cross a channel in circumstances where HN86 has said you shouldn't. Correct.
00:56:14 Correct. Uh DCI Edmonson's position is you shouldn't
00:56:19 shouldn't let's one a little bit Keith Edmonson was Keith Edmonson was very happy he was just leaving the STS he's about to retiring so he didn't give an expressive no he gave a I'll let Bob deal with it and if it all goes tit it's up we can
00:56:32 and if it all goes tit it's up we can have the new manager HN58 when he comes in deal with it because I'm off like Demob happy it's a he he knew he knewish that I was But he managed to sort of say, "Look, I'm off now."
00:56:47 say, "Look, I'm off now." And DI Lambert is actively assisting you to disobey HN86's instruction. I don't like that terminology. He He was assisting me in me going against the
00:56:58 assisting me in me going against the wishes of the manager. I wouldn't say that Bob was necessary. I wouldn't like I think he's got enough problems without me giving him another one. He knew you were going to disobey the instruction. Did definitely know I was going to go. Yes.
00:57:15 Yes. And he was saying that he would provide you with some form of cover if it went wrong.
00:57:20 wrong. Bob was a far. You couldn't leave that same sort of thing in the cap incapable hands of Keith Edmonson, but you could leave that in the very capable hands of Bob Lambert. If I said somehow or other I've ended up in Marseilles prison, Bob could sort it all out. You'd come up
00:57:33 could sort it all out. You'd come up with a story for you to be able to help me to get out of it. A good example of Mr. Lambert's flexibility. very much. So,
00:57:45 can we move to the the other side of this equation with the activists? You cross the channel with three fellow activists
00:58:00 channel with three fellow activists sort of periphery, not a single member of militant uh wiry Yesy type thing, but not like militant labor people themselves. I've never reported on these people.
00:58:09 people. Unless you definitely know that their names are already in the open in this inquiry. Could you write them down? I Yeah, I know they're not. I know they're not the inquiry cuz they're not there.
00:58:54 the chairman first. Thank you. And there's no surnames because I'm only guessing what their actual surnames were. There wasn't any in your very uh bases.
00:59:09 Thank you very much.
00:59:27 I think I can say this much openly. Three males. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And what was their understanding of uh why they were traveling with you?
00:59:40 why they were traveling with you? That we were off to have a jolly. They were they were aware sort ofish what was going on. that um I borrowed my school van uh on I I didn't
00:59:54 borrowed my school van uh on I I didn't say steal at any time because the school was closed. So the backstory is I pretended that I stole the school van um and used that but it wasn't stolen
01:00:08 and used that but it wasn't stolen because the school was closed. So nobody was aware to the beginning of September when they opened the doors across the van's gone. So it wasn't actually stolen. They were aware that I was very disgruntled with my work plan. Uh during
01:00:21 disgruntled with my work plan. Uh during the time I met one uh the first person I named very very early on. Um we had uh the three of us there was a the camaraderie was based on martial arts. Uh and also we were then into uh the music the techno music scene and the house music scene. That's where my uh
01:00:34 house music scene. That's where my uh Peter Johnson had to become a rounded
01:00:44 Peter Johnson had to become a rounded person. It's it's the the activists they were one area but I actually had a very rounded character. So when people came to see me there was other people who were not activists on the periphery. So we we had a common reason. So it was this whoever said it before the jolly I
01:00:56 this whoever said it before the jolly I had in Bavaria take it from me that was not a jolly this was a severe jolly a very enjoyable part uh my my departure that I was leaving. So you're traveling in your cover vehicle.
01:01:07 vehicle. Yes.
01:01:11 Yes. Do you keep in contact with the office or not?
01:01:12 or not? No.
01:01:25 How are you funding yourself? I have got from the SDS uh I had an issued credit card in the name of Peter Johnson. I also had one on the school. Uh and once again, Bob Lambert was very aware that I was going to use that
01:01:37 aware that I was going to use that credit card. But these are credit cards going back to the ' 90s. I think like there was like a daily limit of about £50 or £100. But also if he wanted to keep track of where I was, they could use it as an
01:01:52 where I was, they could use it as an audit trail to make sure I was okay as well.
01:01:54 well. But the short answer is public money. Yes. But my if I put it towards it was my leave. It was my own time. It was my leave I was having. But yes, the Metropolitan Police was paying.
01:02:14 Were you taking any drugs at this stage with your um activist companions? Not necessarily. I was actually driving the van, but yes, during the course of our weeks away, but that is consistent what I've been doing the entire four times. I wasn't sort of a drug head. Occasionally a spliff. Uh and the club
01:02:31 Occasionally a spliff. Uh and the club certainly like Bagley's 3 4:00 morning. There'd be an E, there'd be a tab, something like that, but nothing drastic.
01:02:32 drastic. Cocaine.
01:02:33 Cocaine. Sorry,
01:02:33 Sorry, cocaine.
01:02:36 cocaine. I had cocaine, but not with on this particular trip. I had cocaine twice. They were particular activists that that was their thing. Uh just twice with the same people.
01:02:48 Did there come a time when somebody from the SDS came out to meet you? Far later on. I I had to make one call when I was abroad and that's my uh ex-wife's birthday which was in the
01:03:02 ex-wife's birthday which was in the summer holidays. So I was already left her. So I did the one courteous thing too. I actually bothered to ring her up on her birthday and that that featured and that's where I got the call that Bob Lambert had been round to see her and
01:03:20 Lambert had been round to see her and things were starting to I don't know why Bob Lambert had gone specifically round but he basically I had I had to get in contact with him ASAP. Uh can you help us with how long you had been abroad by this stage?
01:03:33 been abroad by this stage? Uh just trying to across I should remember her birthday but can I remember her birthday now? Yeah, give or take about uh two and a half maybe three weeks. The other bit I would like to add in Bob Lambert, that's something else he said to me is don't
01:03:49 something else he said to me is don't worry about your family. I was concerned about my family. He actually agreed to go round. So I don't think this particular issue is my ex-wife ringing up again. I think Bob Lambert was doing what he said he would do was
01:04:03 what he said he would do was occasionally pop around to make sure the family was all okay. But I only got the message because I'd rung her up on the birthday.
01:04:10 birthday. And if I understood it correctly, what she is saying to you includes give Lambert a to call. Correct.
01:04:13 Correct. And you did that to Yes. At the time I knew his mobile number to ring him up directly. And what did he have to say? things somehow or other leaked out and uh the
01:04:30 H&86 was not sort of best amused that I hadn't paid attention. Uh but it sort of explained it wasn't like you've got to
01:04:47 explained it wasn't like you've got to come back now. It was like he was having difficult managing the situation. But I said to him that if I carry on, I will still get as we agree to Greece because the idea was to drop these people off because they're going to go back to
01:04:58 because they're going to go back to normal life. I was going to carry on. The last thing I was going to say to him, right, well, I'm going to ditch the van. I'm going to go to Greece, go to Greece, contact from Greece, get picked up, go home. So, as far as I was
01:05:12 up, go home. So, as far as I was concerned, mission was still on. I was on the right way, but it wasn't a get home uh come home uh now type thing. Well, if it wasn't that, what was it? A a warning. It was sort of all going a bit bent. If there was any chance I could sort of speed it up, give us a
01:05:23 could sort of speed it up, give us a ring and would, you know, at the m He was still managing, but there's there seem to be shifting sands and Bob can Bob won't panic. He will not panic straight away.
01:05:34 straight away. Time to wrap it up. No, no, not instantly, but yes, we're starting to get there. He's not 100% sure he can keep it all going up till uh the thing.
01:05:47 up till uh the thing. And what did you do about that? Just ignored it.
01:05:58 Just ignored it. In terms of what you were doing uh with your activist colleagues, was there any political activity? None whatsoever. Any violence? There there was Yeah, we had there was an incident. There was an incident in a campsite, but that was not necessarily
01:06:10 campsite, but that was not necessarily us. Uh, but it wasn't a political one. It was just a group of people we had a bit of a punch up with, but uh, nothing drastic.
01:06:17 drastic. Crime.
01:06:20 Crime. Well, the crime I was technically committing was using the card. So, they thought that it we were all involved in crime. Uh, occasionally a couple of bits
01:06:31 crime. Uh, occasionally a couple of bits went missing on the service station when we turned up, but nothing nothing drastic.
01:06:42 Now, that line of evidence arose from my asking you whether there came a time when somebody came out to see you. Yes.
01:06:46 Yes. We've now got you you've spoken to Bob Lambert.
01:06:51 Lambert. He's telling you he basically he can't cover for you for much longer. Yep.
01:06:52 Yep. What happens next? I just carry on moodling along, but I was down to one by then. Uh, another birthday, had no other contact at all, was my mother's birthday, which is 10 days later. So I then ring up my mother
01:07:04 days later. So I then ring up my mother uh 10 days later and speak to her and my mother who lived in Devon had had a call off my wife at the time saying when you speak to Peter on your birthday please tell him to get in contact uh with his
01:07:16 tell him to get in contact uh with his manager. She might have even said Bob uh because he needs to come. So then I rung up Bob and that was an entirely different telephone conversation. It was uh yeah, H86 had uh lost the plot and
01:07:27 uh yeah, H86 had uh lost the plot and there's something I know I can't mention
01:07:38 there's something I know I can't mention uh because uh I've been told I can't but somehow or other H86 in his head got in that I was with this uh person I can't mention who I didn't know who it actually was. So he was saying oh we all think you're you're there and I wasn't. But there was a real degree of urgency then for me to uh come home. So by then
01:07:52 then for me to uh come home. So by then uh I I then literally I knew I couldn't get degrees. I was literally I was about a week a week away from it. I was I I was I was upset. I was angry because I'd put so much work, so much effort into it
01:08:08 put so much work, so much effort into it trying to make the perfect off plan. And literally um the call was whenever I can't remember what it was. Uh but literally I turned round wherever I was. Um and the next day uh I was angry but the next uh day I actually sat down at myself and saw well you know h how is
01:08:24 myself and saw well you know h how is this going to end other horrifically I was more cons career-wise I was more concerned still at that stage that I wanted to get degrees to make the perfect off plan that I planned but I just thought no this career-wise you
01:08:38 just thought no this career-wise you know I've got to go back. So what I then did is to keep the trail up uh I put um I didn't put the school's credit card. I put my credit card left in the telephone kiosk with a pin number on the back uh in the hope that the credit card would
01:08:49 in the hope that the credit card would be used a little while longer when I was out there. So it's about £50 limit a day £100 which in relation to some of the elaborate off plans the SDS has cost
01:09:03 elaborate off plans the SDS has cost cost the Met. This is quite a minimal one. And literally I turned the van round. I was on the beach in the outskirts of Barcelona and drove in one session uh all the way back uh to the SDS offices. But I had the mindset and
01:09:17 SDS offices. But I had the mindset and this is the first mindset I ever had uh for the SDS. If in the event uh I was like caught at the port coming back and there was a problem uh I actually literally would just say I'm an
01:09:30 literally would just say I'm an undercover police officer and that's the only time. Uh just slight thing. Uh me being me, I actually took uh you know, while we're talking about crime, uh I took a number plate off one van. I had a
01:09:42 took a number plate off one van. I had a little Renault Extra 5 van, small little van. Uh I took a number plate off uh one, it was similar looking little van for the front and a different number plate for the rear uh to make it look like it wasn't an English vehicle
01:09:53 like it wasn't an English vehicle returning because the last thing I wanted was the activist would see my van when I'm driving back through London or anything like this. So, I used used that to get back so it didn't look like it
01:10:05 to get back so it didn't look like it was an English van when it came through. And I actually got some stickers from some sort of garage uh that I stuck on the outside of the van to make the van look slightly different. I still concerned that the activist might see me
01:10:20 concerned that the activist might see me when I get back. But I'd already decided at the port if it all went bent. I was actually the first time ever going to say, "Right, this is this is Bob Lambert. Let him sort it out for you." And can I take it? You drop off the last activist companion at He's already gone. I dropped him off. I dropped him off when it started. That
01:10:35 dropped him off when it started. That was the warning with my uh when it was on my ex-wife's birthday. I I got the feeling that it might might be going wrong, but uh that's when I dropped him. You aren't stopped at customs. You don't declare your real identity. I wasn't even sure if they cleared the way, but uh I just went straight through
01:10:51 way, but uh I just went straight through and then I arrived at the SDS offices in South London. And would I be right to understand that therefore nobody did in fact have to physically come out to meet you on the continent?
01:11:05 the continent? No. I was met by two officers. One was John Webb. Uh one was Bob Lambert. John Webb dealt with a van. Where where did you meet them? I say the SDS offices. That would have been very poor trade craft. Like a couple of streets away from the SDS offices in South London. It wasn't
01:11:22 offices in South London. It wasn't directly. I'm not going to park outside the offices. Near enough, John Webb uh looked at took care of the van. Bob Lambert drove me home and Bob Lambert then gave me a little bit of a spiel
01:11:33 then gave me a little bit of a spiel about how how it all sort of unfolded this other event happened simultaneously. But to this day, I still my ex-wife has sworn to me blind that she wasn't the instigator to say to Bob
01:11:44 she wasn't the instigator to say to Bob Lambert, he's been away several weeks. I still don't know what the event was that
01:11:57 still don't know what the event was that led to Bob Lambert going to H86 and this all sort of unfolded. If everybody just kept quiet, I can't work out why he didn't get the grease.
01:12:05 So that is the end of the that stage of your exfiltration. Am I
01:12:17 that stage of your exfiltration. Am I right to understand that you then go on a not too long after that a two week family holiday to Spain. There's a slight thing in before there. Uh so that's beginning of September whenever I came back. It might have been I don't know last week of August beginning of September. Uh I then had my
01:12:28 beginning of September. Uh I then had my SDS leaving due on the 27th of September and uh so all the managers were there at that. I've submitted the card. The
01:12:39 that. I've submitted the card. The reason I submitted the card is you'll see that none of the managers were saying anything about me detrimental in
01:12:49 saying anything about me detrimental in there. They all attended and said what a great job. So all this sort of negative feedback of I had afterwards uh wasn't there. But yes, you're correct. It wasn't immediately then. It was after my leaving due which would have coincided with my children's uh half term. Uh we went to uh Spain and obviously uh they
01:13:03 went to uh Spain and obviously uh they didn't really know that it wasn't really it was a family holiday but I went exactly to where I dropped the credit card off that was our we didn't do it in one stop. We went through and I went there and I carried on the route going
01:13:16 there and I carried on the route going down that I would have done. So we spent two weeks and I carried on writing postcards as though I was still where I was and then my so as far as the activists were concerned because they
01:13:29 activists were concerned because they would get feedback from the people I was in the van. So actually the trail carried on but yes I did that once again that wasn't the Met that was no money off them. I literally went back and carried on that trail by myself.
01:13:46 There's reference in the document to a further trip to Barcelona in December of 1997. Did you go to Barcelona? That's the last that's the last contact. So I went back like I was saying all this negative. He went mad as all disobeying orders and all that lot. I
01:13:59 disobeying orders and all that lot. I then actually uh said look I feel that I would like to make that last bit of contact. Give it a bit more time. And yes, I was fully funded uh by to go
01:14:13 yes, I was fully funded uh by to go back, but I didn't go back obviously as Johnson uh he's gone. And when I went back with a van at the other side, I would like to say is I obviously gave them my passport uh one credit card because there was one one that was missing type thing. I gave her my full
01:14:24 missing type thing. I gave her my full identity at the end that was given. So I went back purely as Francis, but I'd done uh cards. I didn't I I was thinking about doing a call a telephone call because there's always more. But the telephone call, you never know where it
01:14:36 telephone call, you never know where it might end up. Somebody might say, "Look, you shouldn't be by yourself for Christmas. Uh we'll come over and see you for Christmas." So literally done happy Christmas cards and that is my last ever contact with anybody.
01:14:53 last ever contact with anybody. So you come back on the according to the documents on the on Monday the 15th of December 1997 and that is the end of your deployment. I've never had any contact since. Can we now go back to the leaving card you mentioned, sir? It's at in volume one at tab A8
01:15:05 tab A8 3629.
01:15:26 Uh, as you say, lots of friendly comments, lots of praise. Uh, but the
01:15:39 comments, lots of praise. Uh, but the entry I would like to look at, please, is the one which is essentially top center. If we could have that expanded, please. Sorry, the the one above that. Thank you.
01:15:54 you. uh very um difficult to read. Uh but uh
01:16:00 Uh but uh there's a reference to reservoir dogs at the top and that presumably is a reference to your identity as Mr. Black. Yes.
01:16:07 Yes. And then it goes on uh and ends, they're weary and they deserve
01:16:23 they're weary and they deserve to die. And that is a reference to the people you had been mixing with undercover. Is it?
01:16:32 undercover. Is it? It is. And unfortunately that sort of language uh towards uh the activists uh the feeling towards the activists was unfortunately quite common uh with regards to it. is not just here on the card.
01:16:40 card. Did it reflect your attitude at the time?
01:16:45 No, I'd never wish anybody to die, but certainly I I don't know if anybody's ever really explained the term uh weary, but basically the weary is somebody is exceedingly wearisome because you spend that much time with them. All they talk
01:16:58 that much time with them. All they talk about is always got it's always the same thing. So, it's always the extreme leftwing politics in everything. You know, you're having a meal, it's leftwing politics. you're watching the
01:17:09 leftwing politics. you're watching the cinema, it's left week and never never stops. So yes, I certainly would have had that set sentiment. Not about everybody. Not about everybody. There's certainly some of them, but I'd never wished anybody died. Just the if I'd had actually submitted the whole card to
01:17:22 actually submitted the whole card to you, the actual front was a picture of Darth Vader. So I actually had a full Darth Vader. So I was known as Mr. Angry. There's a couple of reference to Angry. There's a picture of Darth Vader at the front of it as well. So I wasn't exactly a happy chap at the time. So, and your habit of dressing in black was
01:17:37 and your habit of dressing in black was Yes, unfortunately we're still here, but I I hope to wear white uh after after I've read the final report. Uh I'll be dressing differently hopefully. Thank you. Can we now move into your post deployment um matters? First of
01:17:53 post deployment um matters? First of all, could we have up from tab B37, sir? 747558.
01:18:14 This is a file note. If we go over the page,
01:18:20 page, we will see that it bears Bob Lambert's name dated 18th of January 1998. If we go back to the first page,
01:18:35 If we go back to the first page, uh, we'll see it says file note howling Gale. That was your code name, wasn't it?
01:18:38 it? I was never aware of it the first time I read it. I knew there was some they were coming up with another way of trying to hide the SDS. So, they come up with all these weird code names like we were uh
01:18:49 these weird code names like we were uh uh the Chisores. So, it's another way of trying to hide us, but I wasn't aware till I read this. They'd hilariously come up with this one for me. Uh and it's um it's recording that at the top
01:19:00 it's um it's recording that at the top first paragraph on Thursday the 8th of January you'd attend uh he'd attended
01:19:15 January you'd attend uh he'd attended you at your home to have a discussion. Was was that part of uh DI Lambert's following up on your deployment ending? Uh yes he'd done a follow-up. He'd obviously taken me home. He was you know good as gold. He he made sure I got home when he picked me all up from the Spain. Made sure I was all okay. Seen him at my
01:19:28 Made sure I was all okay. Seen him at my leaving do. But this is the first time I then saw him uh after. And then if we go over the page to the penultimate paragraph on the second page
01:19:52 asked HG if he would chat to new recruit HN60 about tradecraft etc. did so on the 12th of January. Very useful. HN60 going to see him again before starting.
01:20:05 before starting. Do you recall speaking to HN60 before HN60 deployed? Yes. And in my statement, I've muddled it up. I thought that was originally HN81, but HN81 I saw earlier before
01:20:16 HN81, but HN81 I saw earlier before that. So, I'd muddled it all up, but yes, I do remember. Yes, I'll come to H&81 in a moment. I I did see him. Sticking with HN 60. Yes.
01:20:32 Yes. Did you say anything to HN60 about sexual activity undercover? Yes.
01:20:33 Yes. What did you say? The same as I said to every single SDS officer that I've spoke to. I think I nearly spoke to everybody uh with the exception of uh Kodan Christine Green. I
01:20:47 exception of uh Kodan Christine Green. I didn't speak to her about it. The female aspect I didn't know anything about. Chaps exactly the same. Don't fall basically what I've been told. Don't don't fall in love. That's what I've been said. Uh avoid there's always this cautionary tale of avoid if possible
01:21:02 cautionary tale of avoid if possible because there's always this uh idea that you know you may not fall in love with them but maybe they do. So yeah do avoid if at all possible. Uh be careful about certain pinch points. Uh pinch points are for example if you have activists
01:21:16 are for example if you have activists stay at your house. Uh be you know be careful if you got people staying. there's more chances the parties go into the early hours. So if you're around somebody's house, you can extract yourself, but if they're around your house more often, that's another pinch
01:21:29 house more often, that's another pinch point. Other things I I would have said to him, I definitely would have passed on the advice I was given with regards to condoms. I definitely would have given the advice with regards to use your own condom.
01:21:43 your own condom. um uh basically under I did not say it wasn't allowed cuz even at that stage when I was speaking to him in 1998 I was never told it wasn't allowed even at that stage. So the same advice I was
01:21:57 that stage. So the same advice I was given. I don't think I had a lot more to add into it. Uh I I think I I certainly I wouldn't have said oh and by the way when I was out uh I had sex with people as well. Uh but I I I never said that. But certainly once again these evident conversations, you've got somebody who's
01:22:11 conversations, you've got somebody who's giving advice about sex. Well, why would he be giving that advice unless he's knowledgeable? So there's nobody on the planet who knows what I did sexually
01:22:22 planet who knows what I did sexually when I was undercover. But once again, I was somebody who was talking from the position of experience and that was evident when I was talking to him. But I'd say exactly the same conversation I had with Mark Jenner, um, Jim Boiling, whoever else I can name.
01:22:36 whoever else I can name. Can you help me with the the precise calibration of the message? Was it you can do it as long as it doesn't get serious or is it
01:22:50 doesn't get serious or is it don't do it and whatever you do don't let it get serious? No. No. It was it was if you do try to avoid it because there
01:23:01 if you do try to avoid it because there there's problems from it. Once again, it it being what? Having sex with somebody. Try try to avoid having sex with somebody because it can lead to something. But if you do end up the the this is there, but no, I
01:23:15 end up the the this is there, but no, I didn't say don't I I I wasn't aware that was the actual instructions. I would have also mentioned don't be an agent provocator and everything else I've mentioned over the last few days.
01:23:28 I've mentioned over the last few days. And my I the reason Bob Lambert asked me to see it is, you know, at the time um out of the trade craft, there was certainly some uh officers with some rather wonky trade craft, you know, for example, Mark Jenner turning up with his own credit card and things like that. And I was regarded as somebody had a
01:23:45 And I was regarded as somebody had a very very high trade craft. So like I'd never ever ring up when we had mobile phones, I'd never ever ring up the offices with mobile phones, things like that. So I was regarded as somebody who had very high trade craft.
01:23:58 had very high trade craft. Did you speak to HN 15 Mark Jenner before he deployed? Yes.
01:24:01 Yes. And can you help us with what advice you gave him about sexual relationship? The same as that. There's no there's no difference. I didn't have anything
01:24:13 difference. I didn't have anything different to say. I Mark because he was early on maybe I didn't mention about people being overnight in your flats. I don't know how many people I'd had by
01:24:26 don't know how many people I'd had by then. I can't quite remember when Mark was out in relation to me, but um Jim Boiling. Yes.
01:24:27 Yes. And what was the message uh to Jim Bo?
01:36:42 Give you a moment to read that. But you will see that this is where you appear in the document in that second paragraph.
01:37:16 Okay, I've read the second. Do you want me to read it all or stop? I'm down.
01:37:19 I'm down. I think I think I can ask at this stage. Do you have any recollection of this? This is all this Yeah, he wasn't doing too well in the SWP type conversation. I mean, it reads as if you're being consulted by management about
01:37:40 consulted by management about where might uh HN81 be usefully employed if the SWP is going nowhere. Is that fair?
01:37:46 fair? Fair. Yes. And it appears that uh you um
01:37:51 um are saying that if he's going to move there's no there there is no better reason to leave the left leave the SWP at the moment. Is that fair or am I missing a nuance? I'm sort of head trying to get round to this where I am. I think there was a
01:38:02 this where I am. I think there was a mention it might have been like whether or not he could go towards the anarchist or something within this time. I know definitely somewhere the anarchist popped up with him as well which yeah I
01:38:14 popped up with him as well which yeah I think Bob's enthusiasm wasn't that great either and I think you can see that in there that he wasn't listening that much to Bob either between the two of us we couldn't quite work whoever recommended it to be on the SDS basically but the anarchist class war featured uh in there
01:38:28 anarchist class war featured uh in there as well but I'm not 100 quite sure about the timelines but that certainly would have been before he came out to see me would it be fair to say in so far as you were involved D in this debate that
01:38:45 were involved D in this debate that there was some uncertainty as as to where HN81 could most usefully be deployed
01:38:51 deployed with the word questionable about the usefulness of him overall. Yes. Could we go to um if if you want to read the next paragraph? No, unless you want to ask me a question.
01:38:59 question. I want to go I want to go to the bottom to part two, please. And in particular the last two paragraphs of part two. uh you don't feature again in in part two, but towards the bottom it says uh JW,
01:39:16 but towards the bottom it says uh JW, that's John War returned today and after being John Webb. Oh, sorry. John Webb, not John Web. Sorry, John Webb. Apologies. John Webb returned today and after being appraised of the situation suggested that HN81
01:39:29 of the situation suggested that HN81 could combine such a loose envirro role with a more general public order community role in the South London
01:39:40 community role in the South London Brixham area much in keeping with our earlier discussions with HN81 which included such things as LDMG. This seems a good suggestion, but it is one which would require a lot of initiative from HN81
01:39:51 initiative from HN81 and 51. As stated above, he has shown little of that recently. JW and BG that Bernard Bernard Greeny, yes, sorry. Yes,
01:40:10 yes, sorry. Yes, we'll discuss all of this with H&81 tomorrow and much will be gauged from his reaction to the idea. And so it appears that what's going on is a dialogue which has culminated in a suggestion that some sort of general
01:40:22 suggestion that some sort of general public order community role in South London Brixham area uh might be the best place for him.
01:40:33 place for him. Were you aware of that at the time?
01:40:45 Were you aware of that at the time? Could be wrong. I actually thought there was a mention of the actual SWP in South London. I I get this, but for whatever reason, I've got the SWP and South London. I'm sure he he he howled it up in two branches of the SWP, but could be wrong,
01:40:57 but could be wrong, but yes, South London definitely. So, what he obviously was first North London, get him away from that area. Still a bit risky because people do cross things, but yeah, send him down there.
01:41:12 there. Uh can we take that down now please? Can we
01:41:14 we move to the question of the Steven Lawrence inquiries public hearings? They begin in March uh 1998. Uh you've mentioned today in your oral
01:41:34 Uh you've mentioned today in your oral evidence and you've mentioned in writing in the past uh that your understanding was that there were special branch officers
01:41:41 officers uh keeping an eye on proceedings today. You mentioned for the purposes of ensuring the security of the SDS. Is that right?
01:41:52 that right? That's a part of it. It's not the pro you are uh you special branch officers do to go to court proceedings in the public galleries for quite a lot of uh events including when activists are in court. I've done it myself uh when I was on C squad as well but certainly from
01:42:05 on C squad as well but certainly from that there would be that additional bit to look out for the SDS but I don't think that was their primary. I think the primary is the branch wants to know what what's going in the public inquiry uh if it affects them directly.
01:42:19 uh if it affects them directly. You've also said uh in writing that officers from special branch were passively observing and profiling all of the public that attended. That's what I was made aware of.
01:42:32 That's what I was made aware of. Can you help us with the basis for your knowledge of that? This was the conversation um again with Bob that things are being watched on my behalf, but the profiling of people attending something like this or the courts
01:42:45 something like this or the courts standard special branch. I I think they might not be doing it public inquiries anymore. Uh but certainly at that time if it affected the policing knowing who's going uh is is is standard special branch work. So, is this something
01:42:58 branch work. So, is this something you're thinking this must have happened because it's what special branch normally does or do you have actual knowledge that it did happen?
01:43:10 knowledge that it did happen? I don't think Bob Lambert would have told me if it wasn't done. So, it was him reassuring me that the special branch was in there and they were also looking out for anything regarding the
01:43:21 looking out for anything regarding the SDS. It's Bob's reassurance of me what I'd said is actually being looked out for.
01:43:28 You have in the past suggested that people were there monitoring to see if there was any mention of your name or any other SDS undercover deployments. To do that, the special branch officers would need to know
01:43:41 would need to know at least the cover names of SDS officers, wouldn't they? No, I think if
01:43:53 officers, wouldn't they? No, I think if there was a hint of anything undercover, the word name is probably a little bit too far, but basically if there was a hint, a whiff, anything at all that undercover policing was somehow involved in this. You know, you just needed one of the I don't know, even one of the activists to turn around the question and say, "Oh, I think special branch
01:44:06 and say, "Oh, I think special branch were uh monitoring me or whatever." But yes, uh the un depends on who was in the public gallery. Uh if it was a if it was a former SDS officer doing special
01:44:22 a former SDS officer doing special branch work, was somebody tr trusted? Uh yes, but invariably just looking for anything that says it's undercover.
01:44:33 anything that says it's undercover. Can I move now to the question of the OCU commander commendation? Yes,
01:44:37 Yes, we've got a document which writes this which recommends you for an OCU commander commendation. Tab B41, sir. It's MPS triple02243.
01:44:58 Uh, and if we could go to page three, please.
01:45:03 Now, this is the um
01:45:08 um recommendation for the commenation. But am I right to understand that this commendation was was made and it was made to you at the time in the late '9s?
01:45:24 made to you at the time in the late '9s? I I was not given that commendation. No, I I received that commendation um in an envelope uh on the last day that I was part of Metropolitan Police by somebody who is a very low uh Metropolitan Police civilian employee. When I handed back my
01:45:35 civilian employee. When I handed back my warrant card, the special branch did not give me my own commendation at all. This led to a later rather as well.
01:45:45 as well. I see.
01:45:49 I see. Would it not would would there normally be a formal presentation proper? Yeah. You're invited in, your wife's invited in, and you have it by the commander giving it to you. Why didn't that happen?
01:46:00 Why didn't that happen? Because I was already sick. This was this was done the date it was done. Um it's then right the commanders agreed to it. I I didn't quite clock the date but whatever the date was right I'm going to give the commenation
01:46:11 give the commenation certain amount of time need to set up you're then given notice you then go in by the which time I was already sick uh I'd actually gone I went ill health 27th of September
01:46:25 of September 1999 two years to the day that I'd returned back from the SDS. How did it make you feel being given the presentation in an envelope rather than formally?
01:46:39 formally? Yeah, it sort of added on to the whole um I wasn't treated well. It didn't didn't help. Didn't help at all. Give you a a moment to refresh your memory as to what the accommodation
01:46:52 memory as to what the accommodation No, I know it. Yeah, I know it. Yeah. My questions are more about what isn't in that uh present in that commendation. There is no mention there of the
01:47:05 There is no mention there of the Lawrence family or the Steven Lawrence campaign.
01:47:10 campaign. Given what you've told us about your taskings,
01:47:11 taskings, can you help us as to why there is no mention of the Lawrence family or the Steven Lawrence campaign there? I think because the public inquiry was already
01:47:28 because the public inquiry was already called by then, I don't think they would have wanted the word Steven Lawrence anywhere near there once the public inquiries called. If the event had been presented earlier to me, say when I'd come off the unit in 1997, like two
01:47:44 come off the unit in 1997, like two years earlier, um they may have put it on, but they also even then may have been reluctant. But I can certainly understand their reluctancy with a public inquiry running. At the same time,
01:48:01 time, there is no mention of any family justice campaign or any racial justice campaign in this document. Why is that? I I once again I've put that down to the McFersonen inquiry. don't think it is. I know it's to do with the Steven Lawrence, but I think the issue was regards to black justice. It was wider
01:48:20 regards to black justice. It was wider than just the Steven Lawrence campaign. I know it's the primary focus, but it was bigger than just him. Did anybody say anything to you about the absence of these matters from your commendation?
01:48:31 commendation? I saying I got it in an envelope. I couldn't talk to anybody. And then when I was presented it later on, I did go back to the yard and have it presented. But that's several years later, but 10 years later, uh, nobody mentioned anything then. And I was just grateful
01:48:51 anything then. And I was just grateful to get my commendation finally presented to me. But once again, that was a 10 10 year battle for me to get somebody to present me my own commendation as opposed to give it to you in an envelope.
01:48:57 envelope. Sir, I'm about to move to another topic. Would now be a convenient moment to take the morning break? Yes, it would. 15 minutes.
02:10:25 Thank you, sir. I want to move next uh Mr. Francis to the question of your own sexual activity undercover. Uh starting first uh with what you describe in your witness statement as a joke about taking one for queen and
02:10:41 joke about taking one for queen and country uh in connection with Lewis and you you will recall your witness statement talks about the joke being made uh was it by 86 or 67? uh 86.
02:11:01 uh 86. And uh was there ever any question of your having to have sex with someone you were not sexually attracted to? No. No. None whatsoever. and he done it basically this uh jolly jape as he would describe it was because we found out
02:11:13 describe it was because we found out through the SDS that Lewis was openly gay and I was going to go to try to be alongside him. So that's why that joke
02:11:29 alongside him. So that's why that joke sort of putting it into context. It just wasn't a random thing he said. We found out the intelligence was he was highly likely and that's where the circumstances of him saying it. Certainly HN67 was also present and he thought it was funny as well. I just dismissed it as a comment that uh HN86 was prone to make
02:11:45 comment that uh HN86 was prone to make occasionally though. So he had a sense of humor that he found more funny uh than a lot of other people found funny. A homophobic joke. He just found it he finds Yeah. his whole sense of humor including
02:11:57 whole sense of humor including homophobic jokes. He had a quite a repertoire. Were you sexually attracted to the women you slept with undercover? Yes.
02:12:10 Did you ever say anything in any circumstances to HN81
02:12:21 circumstances to HN81 to the effect uh that you told visiting activists that they had to sleep with you?
02:12:25 you? No, but I did have and I mentioned it. There were these pinch points that I discussed with with him and the other officers that there you always when you have people around your houses that's
02:12:42 have people around your houses that's something to beware be wary of that that was the conversation what he then goes on to add into it. I certainly never said to him uh but it makes sense where he may have got a bit of the conversation. He obviously spends the first 12 lines of his statement saying how he can't remember anything properly. But all I do know is
02:13:00 anything properly. But all I do know is I I never said the further bit about how I almost blackmail people to sleep with me to stay round. Could we have from tab B63 748733
02:13:49 It's an MPS number. Thank you. Uh this is a witness statement produced by Kirsty Masters uh who is the DCI uh or I'm not sure whether she's a DI or a DCI uh but the one of the police
02:14:03 a DCI uh but the one of the police officers running the operation HERM investigation. And what she's doing in this statement is
02:14:17 explaining the evidence that have been gained by Operation Hearn relating to your sexual activity undercover.
02:14:28 undercover. Okay. It's obviously the first time I've seen this document. I wasn't aware of it.
02:14:29 it. uh it uh summarizes
02:14:40 uh it uh summarizes various snippets of evidence. But if we go over the page to page four uh and paragraph 15,
02:14:51 the name of Judy Bashan was provided to Operation Hearn by the former SDS undercover officer known as H as N104. velops our HN 104. In interviews
02:15:03 velops our HN 104. In interviews conducted with him over 3 days between the 12th and 14th of August, 2013.
02:15:14 the 12th and 14th of August, 2013. During interview, HN 104 stated that an activist HN 104 was close to whilst deployed had told HN 104 that Judy Bishan, a full-timer within a group in which Francis had been deployed, had been involved in two heavy
02:15:27 been involved in two heavy relationships. One of which was with her husband who was also a weary SDS terminology for activists, and the other with a male called Pete Bishan.
02:15:38 with a male called Pete Bishan. apparently had apparently been seen at a party with Pete. This was understood by HM104 to have been Peter Francis. HM104 reported this information at the time to an SDS administrative sergeant who said
02:15:55 an SDS administrative sergeant who said words to the effect of, "Oh yeah, that's Pete Bird." Did you have a sexual relationship with Judy Bishon? No, not whatsoever.
02:16:12 Judy Bishon? No, not whatsoever. Can you assist us as to why a sergeant in the SDS uh might have said, "Oh, yeah, that's Pete's Bird."
02:16:26 Pete's Bird." So, if I could possibly break it down, I got no idea who HM 104 is. Am I allowed to find out who that is? Carlos Saraki.
02:16:36 Carlos Saraki. I've never met the bloke of my life. I was just wondering, you know, how he's he's got it later on. Yes, it's later on. Right. Okay. And the reporting sergeant, the administrative sergeant that he refers to.
02:16:46 I I'll have to check that. Okay. I think I know, but I don't want to. Well, no. Cuz I think if you minister Sergeant, you might I might then be able to work out to think, well, maybe that's how the conversation came about.
02:16:57 how the conversation came about. We think it might be, and I don't want to mislead you, but we think it might be Sergeant Titty.
02:17:07 Once again, somebody that I I I've never met,
02:17:11 met, so I can't give him something. And I haven't met the other one. Uh,
02:17:16 Uh, the woman concerned denies any sexual relationship with you as well. Well, so she should do, and I'm very pleased. They say, What do they say? Something ridiculous here. She had a close relationship. It's a heavy relationship with one of which is her husband. So, I'm very pleased she had at least one heavy relationship with her
02:17:28 least one heavy relationship with her husband, but I've got no idea uh where this came about. What what I to possibly
02:17:42 this came about. What what I to possibly leap forward, but how two unknown people in a different time era, the SDS are talking about my uh alleged sex relationship is first. I never spoke to anybody specifically what the relationships were that I had, the two
02:17:54 relationships were that I had, the two of the activists uh that were there. But with regards to uh Judy, I when I reported on her and spoke about her, she was one of the few people that
02:18:10 her, she was one of the few people that I I wouldn't have referred to as being a weary as in being we wear weirisome to be around. She was exceptionally pleasant. She was very very intelligent, good conversation that was more rounded. So if when I was in the SDS reporting on
02:18:22 So if when I was in the SDS reporting on her and we didn't only just do a written report would speak to our managers about people that they could understand the people. I may have said something complimentary about her
02:18:37 complimentary about her that I I I liked her and I thought she was generally good and if somehow or other that's led to that I'll 100%ly
02:18:48 other that's led to that I'll 100%ly thousand%ly say that uh this lady's I I had no sex with this lady under any circumstance. Thank you. Can we take that down now please? Can we go to B79726970
02:18:57 which is your officer A statement again?
02:19:09 Could we have page 22 please? Could we have paragraph 105?
02:19:18 This starts in the course of my work I engaged in a number of sexual affairs thereby betraying my wife and my man and my marriage. I tried to rationalize this
02:19:31 my marriage. I tried to rationalize this by the truth of the situation that these liaison meant nothing emotionally and that I was cynically using the sexual relationships for the purposes of
02:19:42 relationships for the purposes of gaining intelligence and information. I accepted this as part of my job. But again, the internal conflicts at this setup were considerable. The SDS
02:19:53 setup were considerable. The SDS management knew that I was behaving in this way and accepted that it was necessary in order for me credibly to continue my excellent work as an undercover operator. Uh you have since
02:20:11 undercover operator. Uh you have since said that you had two one night stands and I would like to be absolutely clear with you now.
02:20:25 be absolutely clear with you now. How many women did you engage in sexual activity with in your undercover identity?
02:20:26 identity? Two with activists and then people that I met in social situations. Five. I believe
02:20:39 Five. I believe five plus two or five in total. Two + five
02:20:50 of the two who were activists. The first one I don't want you to say anything that might identify the woman.
02:21:05 might identify the woman. Was it literally a one night stand or was there a buildup to it?
02:21:17 This is why the word sexual affairs was used. It was a one night stand as in it was oneoff sex. But both the people without getting anywhere near their identities were known to me and I'd known them for a period of time. And when we were writing the statement, it
02:21:30 when we were writing the statement, it was felt that a one night stand, which I would consider the other five were, that was the category of a one night stand. I I don't even think I actually know the
02:21:42 I don't even think I actually know the name of a couple of the other ones, not even their first name, let alone anything else. Whereas these other two, I know who who they were, and I knew them.
02:21:52 them. Sticking with the first woman, would she have regarded there to have
02:22:04 would she have regarded there to have been a the development of an emotional relationship before the one night of sex? No.
02:22:18 The second woman, was it literally a one night stand or was there an emotional dimension as well? No, the same. They were both without because I'm taking as much care as what we are over the anonymized officers. Both were in uh situ social situations
02:22:35 Both were in uh situ social situations involving partying partying and an end to a good evening.
02:22:45 Now the five women who were not activists,
02:23:00 why did you have sex with them? Purely in the social circles that I was in,
02:23:02 in, it was just part of the nights out that I was involved at. I went out literally every Friday and Saturday night while I was deployed in a lot of different social situations. You met a lot of
02:23:16 social situations. You met a lot of people. Uh sometimes there's there was light recreational drugs involved, sometimes there's alcohol, sometimes just dancing. Um so just the situations I was in and one of them was one of
02:23:31 I was in and one of them was one of those pinch points I mentioned. I had um some periphery activists staying in my flat and one of the encounters was that as well.
02:23:42 Well, I may need to explore that a little bit more, please.
02:23:52 please. It's quite easy not to have sex, not to have a one night stand with somebody, isn't it?
02:23:55 isn't it? It wasn't for me. I'd never been faith in my entire life that I was married.
02:24:04 You are a police officer on duty undercover. I would regard it as I was no I had given all my police stuff including my warrant card that was locked away from me. I was undercover as a special branch
02:24:18 me. I was undercover as a special branch officer and I was off duty on all of the occasions because I was only ever on duty the same day every single day from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. The SDS did not pay you anywhere near the overtime that
02:24:29 pay you anywhere near the overtime that you actually had. I was on every single day that I was on from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. And none of these encounters happened in the early early evening.
02:24:43 Were you really thinking like that at the time?
02:24:46 the time? I was in character. I was in character. Didn't make any difference at all. At the time, you are in character because you are a deployed undercover police officer. But if you were to pull my duty states in those particular points, I was on
02:24:59 in those particular points, I was on from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. and you said I was on duty. So if we are saying I was a police officer, technically I would
02:25:10 a police officer, technically I would have actually been off duty as a police officer at 8:00 p.m. onwards. From the point of view of the women concerned, they were having sex with you and they had no idea that you were an undercover police officer.
02:25:21 police officer. Absolutely. And none of what I'm trying to do, you know, if we've gone quite a way into it. Am I trying to justify any of it? I take full responsibility. I won't justify. It was wrong. Should never have ever happened. And I won't
02:25:33 never have ever happened. And I won't try to justify. Just trying to say what position I was in. What I am exploring is
02:25:40 is are you with the five non-activists having sex with them for your own sexual gratification?
02:25:52 gratification? The same as every time I've always been unfaithful beforehand, but these people, as I'm saying, I've got struggled to remember the name of two of them. Uh I'm not even sure they knew anything more than just Peter.
02:26:03 than just Peter. And were you actually thinking in terms of am I off or on duty or were you thinking I'm having a night out I have an opportunity to have sex. I shall take it.
02:26:18 it. No, I was just responding to that. You said that I was on duty. You you you're the one who said that I was on duty. I was just actually saying technically I was off duty, but when I was Peter Johnson, I was never off duty until I was home again. But the hours well
02:26:31 was home again. But the hours well exceeded what I was played. It was four hours every single day.
02:26:42 So can I take it? It it it never the propriety of what you were doing or lack thereof never crossed your mind at the time.
02:26:47 time. No. With this this implied consent that this was almost expected to take place from the management. And had the order had been that I couldn't have sex undercover, I wouldn't have had sex undercover. I'm very sure had I'd gone
02:27:00 undercover. I'm very sure had I'd gone home, I wouldn't have gone home. I would
02:27:07 home, I wouldn't have gone home. I would have gone to a parable club or something like that, still had sex with somebody. But that then would have been as Peter Francis. I just was uh not a pleasant person at that point. I had no concept of when when I was married to somebody
02:27:24 of when when I was married to somebody that faithful that I should be faithful. Uh, I got horror stories involving not just this. I just was not a faithful husband.
02:27:28 husband. With the five non-activist, did you always use a condom? Absolutely. Your own condom? Absolutely. Because of the advice you've been given? 100%.
02:27:41 as to advice that you should try and avoid
02:27:43 avoid sexual relationships. The advice that you've told as you gave others, would it follow that you did not follow your own
02:27:56 follow that you did not follow your own advice so far as these one night stands were concerned? No, I followed my advice with regards to the activists. I didn't regard the non-activists exactly the same. It was the it was the potential where I was that people I was basically spying on
02:28:15 that people I was basically spying on that that would cause me difficult in my role and it's the other way around when I actually had the sex when the other people that was a consideration I took into account. I was thinking well there is no technical comeback for Peter
02:28:29 is no technical comeback for Peter Johnson because this is just literally going to be that one night stand. So, moving to the two activists,
02:28:40 why do you say you could not avoid having sex with them? Because I've been a long time in that environment playing somebody who was up for inconsequential relationships and
02:28:57 for inconsequential relationships and the circumstances of both at a party. I was in a position I was definitely attracted to them. I'm hoping people were attracted to me and I the time they would then know that I had sex with them. I don't know who
02:29:09 I had sex with them. I don't know who else they spoke to but that for me then meant that the role I was portraying was accurate because there was no comeback.
02:29:20 accurate because there was no comeback. There was no chance of relationship with both circumstances. What had you said and done beforehand that gave the impression that you would be up for a for casual sex?
02:29:35 be up for a for casual sex? I think if you get to know people enough of a long period of time, you gauge people that are around you and through conversations or actions that that's would have been very apparent. This wasn't just a one-off me. Hi, this is
02:29:49 wasn't just a one-off me. Hi, this is me. This is what what I'm here for for the evening. These people got to know you over a period of time.
02:29:59 with the first woman who initiated sexual contact.
02:30:14 I would have thought it's jointly. I I can't remember making a specific old word move on somebody.
02:30:22 with the second woman. The same question.
02:30:28 question. Yeah, the second one there was a longer period
02:30:34 period sort of a bit of more flirting from from technically both sides, but it has been me mentioned already, so I'm not going anywhere. that this person was
02:30:49 not going anywhere. that this person was married. So I was in a position to flirt a little bit more with a person and in return as well without me thinking actually the person was going to cross cross the bridge over cuz that person was married. So there's a little bit
02:31:00 was married. So there's a little bit more flirtation compared to the other one
02:31:01 one from you
02:31:05 from you from me but from the other person as well
02:31:06 well initiated by you and reciprocated. I can't remember who initiated it. It's just it it was just it happened.
02:31:20 just it it was just it happened. Did you talk about either one night stand amongst your activists?
02:31:28 One of them. Yes. Why did you do that? Because some other people were aware what had happened.
02:31:40 what had happened. And why did that mean that you talked about it? because they talked about it to me and as in like it it it had happened type thing. But no, I I didn't go out boast or anything like this. It's the circumstances that are happening. But I'm obviously I'm we're getting into
02:31:57 But I'm obviously I'm we're getting into areas that I'm concerned if I go further because I think both women have got the rights
02:32:01 rights that I I don't give anything away with the second woman. That was the second woman. I thought with the first woman. No, no, it wasn't the same.
02:32:18 No, sorry. It's the first woman the conversation was known. That's that's that's the way around it was.
02:32:25 If you weren't talking about it, at least actively talking about it, can we take it that you did not do this for the purposes of enhancing your cover legend?
02:32:36 purposes of enhancing your cover legend? No. the the first one, the ones that were talking about it. It was a sort of
02:32:45 were talking about it. It was a sort of an enhancement. I didn't sort of make it obvious this is what's going to happen and then people know about it, but it certainly added to my story. And the same activists were out with me when I had not not all the time, but the activists were there on occasion when I
02:33:02 activists were there on occasion when I had sex with other people and they were then aware that that is what I was portraying. But that's with the non-activists. They they also we were out saying it's this promiscuity with no moral judgment on it. But the people I were with, the chaps I was out, we were
02:33:15 were with, the chaps I was out, we were out in the evening. They were also very pro promiscuous as well. So they saw the other ones more than they did the activists.
02:33:31 activists. Were you doing it to enhance your cover? Secondary to me. It was I can't deny it was enjoyable. what I'm saying is somebody who who had done this uh through the entire time I was married.
02:33:43 Did either of the one night stands that you had with activists assist you to extract
02:33:55 with activists assist you to extract intelligence for the purposes of your job
02:34:04 directly? No, but it allowed it is an element of trust. You just have people that you trust more potentially because you've had
02:34:16 because you've had a a sexual encounter with them. So, it wasn't a direct that wasn't that wasn't the intention. It was me me first and the cover. But my credibility is
02:34:29 the cover. But my credibility is definitely enhanced. is the true story that I'm portraying with an action of who I'm actually portraying. Once again, try not to justify what I'm doing. I'm explaining. So, coming back to the words in paragraph 105 of your officer a
02:34:44 paragraph 105 of your officer a statement, I was cynically using these relationships for the purposes of gaining intelligence and information is a long way from the whole truth. I'm
02:35:05 is a long way from the whole truth. I'm saying two 2003 there was anger with it all there but it was part of me within my cover who I was portraying. So it allowed me to gain the intelligence information. If I wouldn't have had the sex of the people, you know, I don't know, do you upset somebody? Do you offend somebody because there obviously
02:35:16 offend somebody because there obviously was some sort of mutual attraction. You then try if I if I stopped I how would I then explain to the person that I
02:35:28 then explain to the person that I obviously like but I'm not going to have sex with you because I'm single and I'm up for sex. Well, you I think you've answered that question already. If you you said if you'd been ordered not to have sex, you wouldn't you would
02:35:38 you would I would have come up with something else.
02:35:39 else. You would have found some way of avoiding it. Well, even no, better. We would have forced the management to come up with something like these decoy women that
02:35:50 something like these decoy women that was suggested and that was there. You'd have somebody real. You can't you can come up with a story for a short period of time. You can't come up with a story when you meet somebody week in week out for four years.
02:36:08 And I appreciate that ML meetings in Hackne there's not much of the James Bond about those but was there something
02:36:21 Bond about those but was there something of the James Bond about the way in which you
02:36:27 you and as we now know your colleagues were having sexual relationships with women in their undercover identity. Was there a feeling that because you were undercover you could behave like that?
02:36:46 could behave like that? I I wouldn't put anything in the category of James Bond type scenario. The
02:36:54 everything was not James Bond that we were doing. The vehicles, the missions, the overseas things, the glamorous locations, the women's, everything like that. That wasn't us. But there I think there definitely is something maybe more slow horses currently what it is James
02:37:13 slow horses currently what it is James Bond that where we were we felt we could do that but I don't think it's a James Bond I don't think anybody for one minute imagine they were James Bond well I certainly didn't. Was there an element that the normal social constraints didn't apply when you were undercover?
02:37:29 didn't apply when you were undercover? I'd agree with that. Plus, you know, to my detriment as well is I wasn't a particularly nice person with regards to the sanctity of relationships if you're in a proper relationship.
02:37:44 Did you tell any of your managers about any of the five nonactivist women with whom you had sex? No.
02:37:52 No. Why not?
02:37:59 Why not? Not necessary. I I had my briefing. what I was allowed to do and all as far as I was concerned because as long as I didn't walk in and say I've fallen in love with somebody or she's fallen in
02:38:11 love with somebody or she's fallen in love with me or she or worse I'm moving around with somebody I'm going to live with somebody cuz you know that's my cover which I've heard other officers do that's when I would have thought the absolute panic buttons would have gone off but me personally um I didn't feel it was necessary I felt I had
02:38:23 it was necessary I felt I had instructions from one set of management that's earlier a H86 the next management was there. So I'm saying um can't go
02:38:34 was there. So I'm saying um can't go into Keith Edmonson wasn't exactly anti- uh sexual relationships either. Was there any requirement to report one night stands? Absolutely not.
02:38:50 Absolutely not. Moving to the two activists. Did you tell any manager about either of those women? No.
02:38:59 No. Why not?
02:39:02 Why not? Same reason. Exactly the same reason. It didn't It wasn't turning into relationship. It didn't turn into relationship. If I somehow ended up suddenly getting myself into relationship, uh I would have seen as
02:39:13 relationship, uh I would have seen as per usual I would have sat down with Bob Lambert and asked him where I was going. But as far as I was concerned, I had a clear instruction. It's the the
02:39:28 clear instruction. It's the the extension is don't fall in love. But as far as I was concerned is the clear thing is do not have a longerterm relationship. So coming back to paragraph 105, the SDS management knew that I was behaving in this way and accepted that it was
02:39:41 this way and accepted that it was necessary in order for me credibly to continue my excellent work as an undercover operator. Can we take it then that your managers did not know any of the specifics?
02:39:54 the specifics? But the advice they'd given me, I'm sure they thought I was taking. So it's an implied that they knew what I was up to without me necessarily spilling it out for them. I say this particular
02:40:05 for them. I say this particular statement um my head was in a very different position cuz for example now if I look back betraying my wife and my marriage um you know I was doing that
02:40:17 marriage um you know I was doing that from day one. It wasn't the SDS had done it but at the time I was still married and I actually thought this is going to go to court. My my then wife was going to be sitting there And I'd have to explain to her that
02:40:32 And I'd have to explain to her that actually I was never faithful to her from be before we were married, let alone when we were married. I just want to explore that a little bit more. If the advice was to avoid sexual relationships,
02:40:44 relationships, if at all possible, and you hadn't told them, why would they think you were having sex undercover? because I was then given the
02:40:59 undercover? because I was then given the advice to every single SDS officer to do what I was told. But doesn't that amount to they would have known that you might have been if in your judgment it was unavoidable.
02:41:15 if in your judgment it was unavoidable. Yes. But nobody ever called me up or nobody ever questioned it questioned me on it.
02:41:20 on it. And the reality was you were having sex in circumstances which were avoidable.
02:41:27 with the exception like I said I was portraying somebody and I think there's a limit to what you can say that I am a free interest and sex but no relationships and I know these people week in week out for four to five years
02:41:46 when you made your officer a witness statement. I appreciate that you were in the course of litigation with your uh police force, but was to your to your knowledge was
02:42:02 but was to your to your knowledge was there any reaction to the fact that you made a signed witness statement explaining that you were having sexual relationships undercover.
02:42:13 relationships undercover. I was certainly not made aware of anything. There was no oh I've said this and there's any comeback or or say for example the solicitors who were using it they then said oh because of what you've said uh we now need you to speak to this
02:42:26 said uh we now need you to speak to this cuz this is being referred on because at that particular time if the complaints had spoken to me or something like that uh I think I was that angry and upset if the complaints had have seen me my loyalty the the SDS by then had been
02:42:41 loyalty the the SDS by then had been stretched beyond uh breaking and I'd already gone gone here. But the situation is certainly not, oh my goodness, uh, this is a confession of
02:42:54 my goodness, uh, this is a confession of serious professional misconduct. We must act upon that and investigate, Mr. Francis.
02:42:57 Francis. No. And the actual solicitors I was using done a lot of work on behalf of the Metropolitan Police. I don't know if I'm allowed to say it, but there's Russell Jones and Walker who were known at the time to do the work of the Metropolitan Police extensively. And so
02:43:10 Metropolitan Police extensively. And so I would have thought if it was upsetting the Metropolitan Police as solicitors, they would actually turn around and have investigated it further. But no, no upset at all. Can we take the document down now, please?
02:43:21 please? You were asked in the course of the dispatchers interview in 2013 whether the women would have consented if they'd known who you were. And you said they probably would not have consented.
02:43:36 probably would not have consented. It's Sorry, I I should have said they definitely wouldn't have consented. I apologize for that. That's wrong.
02:43:48 apologize for that. That's wrong. Can we move now to your uh knowledge of the deceitful sexual activity of other SDS undercover officers? And can we start with a passage from uh your uh
02:44:01 start with a passage from uh your uh interview with Mr. Ellison? It's a tab B84, sir. to UCPI number 3262.
02:44:26 Page 51, please.
02:44:33 lines 11 to 13.
02:44:50 Basically, I, as opposed to some of the SDS officers, extract myself very well. I didn't have women being rung up from Heathrow airport saying, "I'm leaving you." They were never told, "I'm coming back to see you." Um, if I stop there,
02:45:04 back to see you." Um, if I stop there, being extremely careful about anonymity. Um,
02:45:06 Um, women being rung up from Heathrow airport saying, "I'm leaving you."
02:45:20 airport saying, "I'm leaving you." Which officer or officers are you saying made a call from Heathrow airport to say, "I'm leaving you." whether or not it's right or otherwise. That's the scenario I was given that uh is not
02:45:31 scenario I was given that uh is not anonymized at all because it's in all the papers. That was John Dyne's in relation to um Helen Steel, but I don't know if any of that was actually right. That's just one of the versions I was
02:45:43 That's just one of the versions I was given something that he did. But I what I was trying to explain probably not very well is that um other officers had not done obviously what I was told
02:45:54 not done obviously what I was told expressly not to do and that is to have longerterm relationships.
02:46:05 Can we take that uh down now? You have said in your witness statement to this inquiry that it was evident from conversation that Jim Boiling
02:46:22 conversation that Jim Boiling was involved in sexual activity, but you didn't know uh about the children. No.
02:46:28 No. Can you help us first of all with when did you first appreciate that uh Mr. boiling was involved sexually with people undercover
02:46:44 sexually with people undercover uh sometime where he got um divorced from his his wife and uh I thought it was quite a strange one that the fact that Jim uh was getting divorced and he was still staying on the SDS and
02:46:57 was still staying on the SDS and whenever it was I can't exactly but there's certainly a conversation that I was aware that um he was having sex, but I I didn't know anything specific. I
02:47:08 I I didn't know anything specific. I certainly didn't know a name. I didn't know there was a longerterm relationship aspect to it. Can you help us at all with
02:47:21 Can you help us at all with where and in whose company you learned this?
02:47:27 this? It just would have been one of the safe houses, central London, West London OP. But I don't think there was any other witness to it. I think it's just me and Jim having a conversation. Are you able to help us with whether anybody else knew that Mr. Boiling was
02:47:42 anybody else knew that Mr. Boiling was involved in a sexual relationship in his undercover identity? He was a lot He wasn't that close to me. He wasn't that close to me. So, if he
02:47:53 He wasn't that close to me. So, if he was going to confide into anybody, uh, I would have put it into his fellow animals, which I would have put as predominantly HN1. If he had a sounding board, I would have thought that would have been HM1. This is speculation. I don't want you to speculate.
02:48:05 I don't want you to speculate. Apologies then. No idea. No idea. He he confi he talked to me about it, but whether or not that's because I'd already mentioned relationships as in my version of what you can and
02:48:17 as in my version of what you can and can't do. So that had been breached. But if there was anybody, that's who I would have thought he would have talked to.
02:48:34 Was there any open discussion in the office about Mr. Boiling's sexual activities undercover? I never heard a single open discussion about anybody other than historically with regards to Mike Chitty and Rick Clark. Historically, I didn't hear a single discussion about anybody
02:48:46 single discussion about anybody specifically. An open discussion.
02:48:55 Were you given the impression that Mr. Boiling
02:49:00 Boiling had had a single sexual relationship undercover or more than one?
02:49:07 No, I I couldn't qualify that. It just it talked about having sex. I didn't borrow down. I I didn't think it was for me to borrow down and I can't remember
02:49:20 me to borrow down and I can't remember if it was for him, but uh I certainly as my state answer to almost everything that was slightly complex, I would always say It's almost inevitable what I said is go and speak to Bob. Bob's the one who sorts your problems out type thing.
02:49:31 thing. Was that because he was flexible? He was extremely extremely flexible. Was it known that he had had sexual relationships undercover?
02:49:44 relationships undercover? Well, the fact he told me about the condom, I had a very good inkling that he did, but uh Bob certainly on the unit was not boastful. So he wasn't a boastful person. So I never heard it that way. But the advice he was giving me, I certainly felt it
02:49:59 he was giving me, I certainly felt it came from knowledge as opposed to he had heard it.
02:50:10 James Thompson, you have said that you recall knowing from General Chat at the SDS flat that he was having sex undercover, but we never discussed specifics. Can you help us with when this general
02:50:25 Can you help us with when this general chat at the SDS flat occurred? I I think the sorry can't recall exactly sometime west London uh central London OP uh but it was James came in late for for me
02:50:39 it was James came in late for for me sort of quite the quite the end of it all but him the way he was if you're going to get anybody to sort the sort of the James Bondi type thing because I was aware of him working on film sets as
02:50:55 aware of him working on film sets as this runner I don't know what he's doing but he's doing there. So there was like there was more of a glamorous type. If anybody was in that sort of that sort of
02:51:07 anybody was in that sort of that sort of area, that would be that would be James. And so the conversation that I can recall was yes, that sex was happening, but I didn't get the inkling there was a long-term relationship.
02:51:19 there was a long-term relationship. And can you help us? I I appreciate he starts quite late in your time on the SDS, but can you help us with when this conversation took place? No, but sometime before I come off, just towards the end
02:51:31 towards the end before September. Yes,
02:51:32 Yes, before the 27th of September 1997. Before I was off, definitely. And I'd lost uh middle of July onwards. So, because I was already off on my escapades by then.
02:51:49 escapades by then. The evidence that the inquiries received about Mr. Thompson is that his first sexual relationship started in the autumn of 1998.
02:52:03 Surprises me. Can I ask you, are you sure that Mr. Thompson was confirming to you that he was engaged in sexual activity undercover? Or might you be mistaken about that? I could possibly be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that it was the conversation was him because my
02:52:15 was the conversation was him because my feeling about him uh was because of the glamorous occasions, the film stuff and all that lot. That was the conversation I was having with him. And um that was
02:52:29 I was having with him. And um that was before I came off. I I didn't speak to Jim afterwards. And certainly by September 98, I I I never saw Jim again after I'd left.
02:52:51 Now you have said previously that you would have been surprised if almost all of them were not having sexual encounters undercover uh in circumstances which suggest that you are referring to those you over overlapped with.
02:53:06 overlapped with. And you said in your proof of evidence that you only knew of one officer who did not have a sexual relationship with his target. I just want to be clear now about
02:53:17 I just want to be clear now about precisely what you knew and precisely
02:53:28 precisely what you knew and precisely what you were assuming was happening. So, if we take the officers you over overlapped with, did you know whether or not Andrew Kohl's was involved in having a sexual relationship undercover or have any
02:53:47 relationship undercover or have any positive reason to believe that he was? conversations from him was certainly that
02:53:51 that it I felt the conversations with him that sex was within his deployment certainly conversations from him but again he didn't specify who
02:54:04 again he didn't specify who did he say that he was no
02:54:07 no Trevor Morris no
02:54:10 no hn use the cover name Matt Raina same type of conversation with him. I had the feeling through conversation
02:54:27 had the feeling through conversation that it was taking place but he never directly said that that that he was HN26
02:54:28 HN26 who used the cover name Christine Green.
02:54:38 who used the cover name Christine Green. No, I I didn't have um any sort of discussions of that line with at all the the whole female uncomfortable level of talk. And I' I've already asked you about Jenna Boiling and Thompson, which leaves of the open officers you over overlapped with just HN81.
02:54:55 overlapped with just HN81. I he I don't know. I think he was having difficulty buying a car at that stage, let alone having any sort of relationships at that particular time. I I always felt maybe rightly or wrongly
02:55:08 I always felt maybe rightly or wrongly it was the the deep cover SDS officers that was just something they added to almost like their sort of arsenal repertoire to ensure that's how I felt it was to ensure that your cover was
02:55:21 it was to ensure that your cover was almost unpenetrable. I am playing this person. So that's what I would do. Do you want me to write down the one officer that I know for definitely did not have it? Because I know him, but more importantly, I knew his wife who would have cut every part of his anatomy off had he ever had uh sex sex with
02:55:34 off had he ever had uh sex sex with anybody. Do you want me to write that down? But you probably know who it is. I would like you to write it down, please.
02:56:26 Thank you.
02:56:37 in relation to the other anonymous officers that you over overlapped with obviously
02:56:39 obviously nothing at all which might identify them. I just would like a yes no answer to this question. Do you have positive
02:56:52 positive reason to believe i.e. They talk they told you or somebody else told you that they any of them had a sexual relationship or indulged in sexual
02:57:06 relationship or indulged in sexual activity in their undercover identities. One officer. Could you write down the either the name or the nominal of that officer, please?
02:57:27 I don't know his number cuz he's fully fully anonymized.
02:58:10 a one night stand or a relationship that lasted for longer than that? Can't answer that, but definitely a sex
02:58:32 Can I move now to officers uh who you did not serve with? Can I start first of all and the questions go a little bit beyond sexual relationships but uh John Dyn
02:58:35 John Dyn did you speak to John Dyn before you deployed? No, I was sent to go and speak to him because he was one of the officers that once um H86 said I was
02:58:47 officers that once um H86 said I was coming to the SDS. He told me a number of officers that I could go and speak to who I wasn't aware had been SDS officers. He was one of them I went down. But on the day I actually went to see him is he was fairly grumpy and
02:59:04 see him is he was fairly grumpy and fairly angry. So I ended up not having a conversation. But I I the reason I say it is I went to him. I chatted to him and I said H86 has said I can speak to you and in no uncertain terms he told me to sort of piss off. Uh he wasn't talking about SDS matters.
02:59:18 talking about SDS matters. Did he say anything at all to you substantively? No nothing whatever. That was it. Just literally go away. I would like to say he his nickname on the squad before I
02:59:29 he his nickname on the squad before I got on it and you might be able to ask John Webb because John Webb I never worked with a bloke but John Webb actually told me what his nickname was on the uh SDS and it was Sergeant Yob. Sergeant Yob.
02:59:46 We understand that former SDS officers contributed to the literature that was available to new starters in a binder. Yes.
03:00:00 Yes. Are you are you able to help us with what Mr. Dyn might have added to the binder?
03:00:04 binder? No, because the binder, which later on became the tradecraftraft manual officially, was just a collection of loose leaf things and they were anonymized. nobody signed and I've definitely somewhere in the witness packs seen something that's typed out
03:00:20 packs seen something that's typed out all in capital letters quite a bold set and on that you'll see there's no signature down the bottom and that's one of the original things from there some people called it collection of war
03:00:31 people called it collection of war stories STS advice but no officer except weirdly later on when uh Andy Coohl's redone the tradecraftraft manual made it officially he stuck his name on it which doesn't surprise me because Andy being
03:00:44 doesn't surprise me because Andy being Andy type thing but earlier here. It was anonymized uh deliberately. It was actually deliberately anonymized.
03:00:54 Can you recall any discussion about the MAC liel case whilst you were in the SDS?
03:00:59 SDS? When I was on the um SDS purely in meetings,
03:01:01 meetings, um somebody in summary u I think it was Andy Coohl's just talked about having been on a demonstration forum. Uh the file was
03:01:15 demonstration forum. Uh the file was over presumably for Andy and I remember sitting down reading through Helen Steel's uh file, a very thick file. Uh and I just read it because the fascination of her she credit to her.
03:01:26 fascination of her she credit to her. She certainly had a reputation on the SDS a with regards to John Dials but her own activism. So it's very unusual for me to actually bother to read about other fields. I had no input. Uh, but I
03:01:41 other fields. I had no input. Uh, but I found the history of her so fascinating that I actually sat down and read read her file.
03:01:50 her file. Can I just unpack some of that? First of all, did you read a file on Helen Steel or on M Liel or on both? No, just purely her. I wasn't interested in the campaign at all.
03:02:06 in the campaign at all. And were you when you said because of John Dyn and Helen Steel, what did you mean? I meant that on the unit when I was out there and the I can't remember exactly when the starting point was but there certainly was uh a talk by Bob
03:02:24 there certainly was uh a talk by Bob Lambert to the meeting. he addressed it to say in security terms the SDS there there is potentially a compromise uh with regards to Helen Steel and I can't remember where we were at what stage uh something had been triggered um with
03:02:41 something had been triggered um with regards to the identity had been looked into at John Dyn don't want to say too much uh that triggered something then she turned up the dress over here uh so there was concern turned and there's everybody on the SDS
03:02:53 everybody on the SDS um was basically putting two and two together and um you know hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn. He'd done something badly to upset this woman.
03:03:07 something badly to upset this woman. Was there any discussion about whether or not there had been a sexual relationship between the two of them? I think everybody came up with 2 plus 2 equals 4 and that particular thing. But nobody including Bob Lambert actually
03:03:21 nobody including Bob Lambert actually crossed that Rubicon and actually said that. But everybody, you know, it was just the levels that she was going to in this pursuit uh implied that that very
03:03:32 this pursuit uh implied that that very relationship I was told not to have uh was happening. This is this was quite close on to him just about getting rid of the Chitty Saga. And here we were potentially facing exactly the same again because of a relationship.
03:03:47 again because of a relationship. And can you help us with what Lambert was communicating to the unit about Helen Steel's attempts to find John Dyn.
03:04:01 Helen Steel's attempts to find John Dyn. Concern for the officers who were out there, particularly the animals who were out there. Less for me because I I didn't I didn't know at all, but the fact there might be some sort of compromise coming. They they didn't know as soon as there's a hint of a compromise, they love to put lots of
03:04:17 compromise, they love to put lots of plans. There was a there's an actual SDS contingency plan uh if things start to go go wrong. But they didn't invoke that. There was just because then you're talking about getting rid of flats, you're talking about moving, not going to meetings, things like this. But it
03:04:30 to meetings, things like this. But it wasn't that stage. It was a warning. But I know the animal lot. They all then went off in a huddle in their own little room uh to discuss more which I wouldn't
03:04:41 room uh to discuss more which I wouldn't have been privy to but it's very unusual for the management to say look there might be a potential problem here.
03:04:50 Were you asked to carry out any research in relation to Helen Steel? I wouldn't have been. It's ridiculous. The answer is no. But it's ridiculous for me to be asked to do that
03:05:03 for me to be asked to do that because you were deployed. because I was deployed. Yeah. If anybody was going to do not just that, if you're talking about a high level breach, there's only one person who would deal with that sort of level and that'd be Bob Lambert.
03:05:15 of level and that'd be Bob Lambert. Did you encounter Helen Steel in the course of your deployment? Not in the slightest.
03:05:34 Was there ever a rumor that Helen Steel had had a child fathered by John Dyn? It's the first time I've ever heard it as this particular moment in time. Uh, no.
03:05:59 I'm putting that because Mr. Chitty in re in response to operation Hearn said
03:06:04 said at some point after his retirement he was visited by Peter Francis who was suing the MPS at the time likely to have been late 1990s early 2000s.
03:06:18 been late 1990s early 2000s. PF was looking for MC to support him in his efforts, but MC told PF that he wasn't interested as he had left that
03:06:29 wasn't interested as he had left that behind him when he retired. MC recalled that during this meeting. PF told him that activist Helen Steel had a child and that he PF believed that the child
03:06:44 and that he PF believed that the child was from Steel's relationship with SDS officer John Dyn. Mike Chitty did say that he thought PF was a liar and was very unwell. So does not know this to be
03:07:06 very unwell. So does not know this to be true. So, first of all, did you uh go to see Mr. Chitty in connection with your claim against the MPS? No, wrong officer. It was the wrong officer. He's muddling it up with the
03:07:17 officer. He's muddling it up with the other officer who I was aware did visit him and Mike Chitty did agree to help the other officer as long as he got 10% of the final outcome settlement.
03:07:31 Did he? Uh, the response from the other officer was probably as you expected. Um, and the 10% was very clearly stated to him he wouldn't be getting it in this particular officer's own unique way of passing on information.
03:07:55 Just a moment. Yes.
03:08:05 Do you know whether or not any SDS managers traveled
03:08:24 traveled uh in order to try and mitigate the risk uh being generated by Helen Steel's inquiries into John Dyn's? I certainly was aware Bob Lambert was
03:08:37 I certainly was aware Bob Lambert was trying his very best to get authorized to go and I believe it was Australia. He was definitely doing his best, but I I don't know if that actually ever materialized that he did, but he was doing his best to get the commander in one of these very tight situations. So,
03:08:52 one of these very tight situations. So, I don't know where Mr. Moss was involved or all these other officers involved, but I can guarantee the linage was Bob Lambert straight to Roger Pierce. This had to be kept very tight. So, I certainly know there was talk and
03:09:05 certainly know there was talk and whether or not it happened after I came off the SDS, uh, I don't know, but I
03:09:16 off the SDS, uh, I don't know, but I know he was angling her for it. But I've got to say further, uh, Bob Lambert and John Dyn were actually friends. I I don't know where the friendship happened, but they were actually friends. I don't know if it was the field over overlapped or beforehand, but they they were close close as close as friends.
03:09:32 friends. Did you hear of any other manager wanting to travel to address the risk? I'd be very surprised if Bob relinquished the travel opportunity. It could only been maybe after he left the
03:09:43 could only been maybe after he left the unit, but the answer is no. But I think Bob was angling for the holiday more than anybody else. Did you hear any discussion about John Dyne specifically in relation to the Matt Liel litigation? I wasn't aware of that that he had any part to do with that.
03:10:09 Can we move now to some evidence in your witness statement where you said or you state HN86 warned you about an SDS officer the unit had lost. He had been
03:10:20 officer the unit had lost. He had been married but got divorced from his wife and stayed out in the field with his target. actively advised to avoid the situation.
03:10:31 situation. And you you were talking in terms of avoiding falling in love, correct?
03:10:36 correct? No names, please. Was this an officer who dated from HN86's time in the SDS? Correct.
03:10:45 Correct. Do you know the name? I do not know the name.
03:11:00 Can we uh move now from sexual relationships to the question of your well-being and mental health? You have been very candid about your mental health and about the impact of your service in the
03:11:12 impact of your service in the I possibly ask for a break before we go to that difficult area. Yes, of course. Sort for lunch maybe a bit early. I don't know. I just see this is a
03:11:25 don't know. I just see this is a difficult area. Well, if it helps you, I am going to ask you essentially to help us with the impact
03:11:36 us with the impact that the deployment had. And in particular, uh the chairman, one of the chairman's functions is uh considering recommendations and what you might suggest is done in the future to avoid psychiatric injury to undercover patient.
03:11:48 to undercover patient. Just currently I'm tired. Uh so if I could have a bit of the lunch break a bit earlier be appreciated. Certainly. We'll resume at 10 to 2. Appreciate