Mark Metaf, co-founder of the Colin Roach Center, gives extensive testimony. He was specifically targeted by Mark Jenner (HN15) whose operation was code-named 'Touchy Subject'. Metaf discusses CRC's work exposing police corruption and deaths in custody, Kurdish refugee support, building workers' deaths campaign. He details Jenner's limited access to legal information, the Brian Douglas campaign, and gives emotional testimony about Joy Gardner whom he knew personally. Discusses AFA affiliations, Brick Lane confrontation strategy, Welling demonstration, and the formation of Resistance. Emphasizes CRC helped 98 people in legal battles against police in 1996, winning 90 cases.
00:25:39 Do one moment. Do please sit down. I'm fine.
00:25:42 I'm fine. No, you're right. Yeah, that's I have to say I have to say something. No problems. I'm used to stand up at football matches m that's my sort of scene. Um this morning's proceedings or this
00:25:54 Um this morning's proceedings or this today's proceedings are being live streamed with a 10-minute delay. Those with u mobile devices may use them to report what they're hearing in the hearing room, but not to photograph or
00:26:05 hearing room, but not to photograph or record. Any reporting must be uh done 10 minutes after the event that is being reported or more.
00:26:16 Thanks. right to me. I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm
00:26:27 declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth. Cheers.
00:26:37 Cheers. I'm sorry. You will have to speak sufficiently close to the microphones for everybody to be able to hear you. No worries. I'll take that. Yes.
00:26:48 Yes. Yes.
00:26:51 Good morning. Hello.
00:26:53 Hello. Can you give your full name, please? Yeah. My full name is Mark Jton Medov. In the northeast, you get your mom's maiden name and my mom was called Jon. You've provided three witness statements
00:27:05 You've provided three witness statements to the inquiry. The first one is at bundle C for the CRC, the Colin Roach Center. It's behind A1 UCPI 37796.
00:27:16 Center. It's behind A1 UCPI 37796. It's a statement of 16 pages dated the 7th of March 2025. Do you recognize that statement as being the one the corporate statement that you
00:27:27 the one the corporate statement that you wrote on behalf of the Colin Roach Center?
00:27:29 Center? Appropriate the day after me mom's birthday. What have I just said? Are the contents of that statement true to the best of your knowledge and belief?
00:27:38 belief? Yeah, they are. Thank you. Um, you also wrote a personal statement which is uh in the Mark Metaf bundle behind tab A1 UCPI 37768
00:27:53 and that's a witness statement of 16 pages again dated the 7th of March 2025. Yeah.
00:28:02 Yeah. Do you recognize that as your personal statement? Yes, I do. And can you confirm that the contents of that are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yeah, I can't. And finally, you you produced a second
00:28:15 And finally, you you produced a second statement on behalf of the CRC which is behind tab A2 UCPI 37795
00:28:28 and that's a two-page document.
00:28:33 I dated the 21st of the 3 of of 21st of the Can we just go to the the date at the end of that please?
00:28:47 the date at the end of that please? Oh 21st of the 3rd. Yes. Uh uh uh 2025. And that was to exhibit those exhibits listed there on on page two.
00:28:58 listed there on on page two. Yes indeed. And can you confirm that that is true to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yeah, it is. Um, those three statements and exhibits will stand as your evidence of the
00:29:09 will stand as your evidence of the inquiry.
00:29:10 inquiry. Okay. Thanks. I understand you've got a few opening words that you want to say or would you like to leave those until the end? No, I'm I'm I'm happy to start by uh saying them.
00:29:22 saying them. It's not often that I praise Tory politicians, although we did have some dealings with them at the Colin Road Center, particularly around Kurdish refugees, and they did keep their word uh to be honest on that. Uh but I'd like
00:29:34 uh to be honest on that. Uh but I'd like to place Theresa May for ordering the inquiry and giving the opportunity particularly to the women in this this case. Uh and I'd like to thank her also for having after I'd organized a massive
00:29:47 for having after I'd organized a massive press conference on behalf of the Agrieve truth and justice campaign about 10 years ago agreed to meet from campaigners from the agrieve truth and justice campaign and to put into process the public inquiry. Uh I'd like to note
00:29:59 the public inquiry. Uh I'd like to note that John Dunn who will be given evidence at that inquiry uh will be watching on today. Uh the final bit I'd like to see is I'm of course aware that the the spying on be by Mark Jenner was
00:30:12 the the spying on be by Mark Jenner was only part of a longer process of being spied upon for reasons which I I'm unfamiliar with. Uh my personal view I might as well state is I think I was spied on upon in this particular case
00:30:24 spied on upon in this particular case largely because of the work which was undertaken on the policing issue particularly by Graeme Smith and I think that I was because I was so active in so many other things and other events that I was logged into that in particular but
00:30:36 I was logged into that in particular but I do believe it is around the placing issue which were very serious and very major as exhibited by the fact that Graeme was a regular Graeme appeared I think one we had we did a little total
00:30:48 think one we had we did a little total up and I think Graeme appeared more than John Smith on who was the leader of the Labour Party at the time during the period that John Smith first on the national news more times than John Smith. So that gives you an idea for
00:30:59 Smith. So that gives you an idea for those who are unfamiliar with this process of how big the issue of policing was in the national news on the TV and the program Panorama World in action and that's why I think I'm particular that I
00:31:11 that's why I think I'm particular that I was I was I was spied upon. That's it really. Thanks for your time. Um I recognize I'd like to see also the two other persons. The other person that here for
00:31:22 persons. The other person that here for particular because obviously Allison has given a thing as he can it be can it be here is Brian Higgins from the building worker group. Uh and I'd like to say that I really wish whatever I can say on
00:31:33 that I really wish whatever I can say on the building industry can be said much more coherently and better by Dev Smith and Dev should be given the opportunity to come up here and speak on behalf of the build of the Blacklist support group and of course on behalf of himself.
00:31:46 and of course on behalf of himself. Thanks for your time. Thank you. I recognize that when we start asking uh when I start asking you questions about uh the reporting, we're talking about events that are around 40
00:31:57 talking about events that are around 40 years ago. Yeah, of course. Um and and and so memories fade, but you say stuff will be located around uh who will play at that weekend except in the
00:32:08 will play at that weekend except in the periods of May, June, and July when I have no memories of weekends because there's no football on. Thank you very much. Obviously, you're helped by uh uh contemporaneous documentation both from what's been
00:32:20 documentation both from what's been disclosed through the the inquiry, but also those documents that you've retained yourself like minutes of meetings, leaflets, still carry a lot of that stuff up in the loft. It's not managed to drag some
00:32:33 the loft. It's not managed to drag some of the stuff out. There's some comments in here about how many policeing cases we took up. I tried extensively to find the document which I can see because I actually typed it up about the success
00:32:45 actually typed it up about the success that were had in after Graeme had left and that was purely and simply based on Graham's work. The police were collapsing cases if the Colin Road Center took cases up. Unfortunately, that led to some people who were
00:32:56 that led to some people who were actually guilty of some quite serious crimes getting off as well. So, the community suffered doubly. If we managed to get them get people who hadn't done stuff found not guilty, that's great.
00:33:07 stuff found not guilty, that's great. But at the same time, other people who were guilty were were got away with offenses which we didn't really want them to get away with. Uh the officers that we're going to be
00:33:19 Uh the officers that we're going to be looking at, uh primarily it's HM15 that we'll come to in due course, but there there's some earlier reporting. Yeah. Yeah. By an officer known as HN122, Neil Richardson, and he was deployed in
00:33:32 Neil Richardson, and he was deployed in the SDS from 1989 to 1993. first within the revolutionary communist party and then class war. Do you recognize
00:33:43 and then class war. Do you recognize him?
00:33:44 him? I don't I don't um 1878 Trevor Morris. Uh his cover name was Anthony Lewis or Bobby McGee and he was deployed between 1991 and 1995
00:33:59 was deployed between 1991 and 1995 uh within the ANL East London and the Socialist Workers Party in the Doulston branch. Do you recognize him? No, I have no idea who these people are.
00:34:11 No, I have no idea who these people are. Um, but but you do know uh who the officer DC Mark Jenner? I I know I know Mark, of course I HN15.
00:34:21 HN15. I didn't know him as Mark Jenner, but I obviously
00:34:24 obviously You knew him as Mark Cassad. Is that right?
00:34:26 right? Yes, I did. I did you know him by any other name? No, not that I can. He didn't. Mark wasn't the sort of guy who I couldn't imagine we taken the nicknames.
00:34:38 couldn't imagine we taken the nicknames. Okay.
00:34:39 Okay. We're a bit as you get older, you've either got one or you you haven't really in it. So, he never had a nickname, not I'm aware of anyone. Uh the inquiry knows that he was
00:34:51 Uh the inquiry knows that he was deployed by the Met Police into the from the SDS from 1995 to 2000 into left-wing groups in London, including the Colin Roach Center, anti-fascist action, Red
00:35:04 Roach Center, anti-fascist action, Red Action, and also reported on Irish Republican support groups in London. Unusually, he was specifically targeted to you as a named individual.
00:35:16 to you as a named individual. Um
00:35:18 Um It's he was also known by the code name touchy subject and that name appears on some of his reporting which we will get to. Um the inquiry understands that the operation
00:35:31 inquiry understands that the operation code names were given in around March 1997
00:35:35 1997 in anticipation of RIPER 2000 coming into force which is the reg regulation of investigatory powers act. Okay. Yeah. Which required undercover officers to be
00:35:46 Which required undercover officers to be registered as chises or covert human intelligence sources. Mhm.
00:35:51 Mhm. And that's why he's been allocated this name touchy subject. Okay.
00:35:59 Later on around 2000 onwards, we know that DC Carlos Saraki was deployed by the SDS. Uh, and he was he infiltrated
00:36:12 the SDS. Uh, and he was he infiltrated the the group No Action. Are you familiar with somebody called Carlo Ner, which was his cover name? I'm familiar with it because obviously some of the lasses and stuff have spoken about that
00:36:26 lasses and stuff have spoken about that but I have no knowledge of of that individual at all. If I met him no I I kind of I can't honestly I can't
00:36:38 no I I kind of I can't honestly I can't answer any questions on that. I don't know anything about him. Um if I can ask you first then about uh your own background. You're from the northeast. All right. And did you have quite a political background?
00:36:50 political background? I was I was political more or less from the age of of seven years of age. Uh [clears throat] it was an anti-religious thing. Uh when the uh Arabiz rolling war
00:37:01 thing. Uh when the uh Arabiz rolling war kicked off, I thought, well, I didn't believe in God by anyway. My dad didn't believe in God. My dad was a plumber pipe fitter. He'd been uh ETP Europe. Uh
00:37:12 pipe fitter. He'd been uh ETP Europe. Uh he fallen out over the uh the uh basically the CPA were a dodgy organization. He was a socialist himself
00:37:23 organization. He was a socialist himself but he became disillusioned uh by socialism because socialism had become about what socialists could get out of the movement rather than actually uh putting the things into the movement.
00:37:35 putting the things into the movement. And uh he was pretty much dedicated uh to his family after that. Uh he traveled uh all over uh Britain for work as did most building workers. In ' 68 uh when
00:37:47 most building workers. In ' 68 uh when Enoch Powell h made his statement he was actually working in Wolverampton and he had arguments with people on the sites. In his case, he walked off the sites
00:37:58 In his case, he walked off the sites because he didn't want to listen to what he was being uh what was being said in support of Enoch Powell. uh and so he was a he was a difficult combination uh
00:38:10 was a he was a difficult combination uh to some extent much later on I can remember he'd become very soft in my view uh when some of my lads were getting killed on building sites he was for collecting monies to h give to their
00:38:21 for collecting monies to h give to their families and my argument was you need to stop the site you need to damage their production native thing which is why Brian and Higgins come comes into that and did you get involved in in training
00:38:32 and did you get involved in in training I would pick Me dad me dad took me uh firstly the strike in 72 was on and the minor strike it's a few miles from here there wasn't any need for picking to take place at eent cry it was
00:38:43 take place at eent cry it was exceptionally solid it was in 74 me dad and me grandma and things my my grandma was one of the last people to uh work at the pit in in fact not down down the
00:38:55 the pit in in fact not down down the thing uh back in the time of the uh yeah they were both on strike in the 26 strike
00:39:03 strike I'm very proud of of them. H I was taking the Dora minus Gala when it was to now it's all dresses and fancy fancy regalia at the time when I was taken it
00:39:16 regalia at the time when I was taken it was uh lads whose faces were still black from working on shifts but give you some idea they might get half a million in Durham and I was taken as a very young age as I was taken to top class football
00:39:28 age as I was taken to top class football matches as well. It was a traditional upbringing. In terms of that, the pit uh was the thing that was the most important. Although we'd moved to Pete Lee. I'm very proud to come from Pete Lee. It's the only town named after a
00:39:40 Lee. It's the only town named after a trade unionist in this country. Just as Sunderland's the only club to be formed by a trade union. I feel that there that is my generation. Uh in in that respect.
00:39:51 is my generation. Uh in in that respect. Um
00:39:52 Um can I ask you? So that's the case. I feel that was the situation with me dad. Me dad's politics had a big influence on myself and I was taken picketing back down in T-side. I
00:40:03 taken picketing back down in T-side. I was about 12 or 13. Me mom went absolutely mental. She was right to do so. It was quite a difficult picket to be frank.
00:40:11 be frank. You say in your statement that you moved from Birmingham to London in about I went to college. I became a youth and community work. I worked in smeik uh with a lot of uh lot of Asian youth uh
00:40:22 with a lot of uh lot of Asian youth uh at the time. It's very poor area. You might remember it. It is still a poor area to be frank. I moved I went to Birmingham because I whilst I was an anti-racist, I didn't know any black
00:40:34 anti-racist, I didn't know any black people. Really, you cannot be an anti-racist and not know any black people.
01:02:42 Um the next document here please.
01:02:48 I mean that this is it that's there to show that whilst we're interested in in fascists we were interested in all sorts of fascism. Uh and that included as we went on Islamic
01:03:00 and that included as we went on Islamic fundamentalism. There's an article in one of our magazine which says who put them mental and fundamental. Uh so uh that was that was this the situation. We
01:03:11 that was that was this the situation. We didn't just think that fascism could apply to uh Europe politics but was of in was of international concern. Actually, we stopped. We actually stopped. We actually did manage to get
01:03:23 stopped. We actually did manage to get that event stopped as it happened in support of the Kurdish community just just in support of the fact and often the same people were the people who were the employees of of of workers.
01:03:37 who were the employees of of of workers. So they were they they were hostile to the to the work workers movement. And I I I don't know if it's coming, but obviously I I organized trade union delegations to Kurdistan. Uh in in the
01:03:51 delegations to Kurdistan. Uh in in the 1993 one, everybody was arrested. It was national news was first on the national news when they came back as a as the thing I did the press conference. uh we and they'd gone to the they'd been
01:04:03 and they'd gone to the they'd been they'd gone to deacar and they'd gone to the spot where the uh Turkish military had executed a number of peasants and then doing that they they were fired upon and then they were arrested bit
01:04:15 upon and then they were arrested bit like I don't know what's it called express forgetting of things and uh so we organized we organized that if people wanted to do that and we could get the monies together we would show solidarity
01:04:26 monies together we would show solidarity and support uh wherever that was possible.
01:04:30 possible. that the stuff around the Turkish stuff proved to be exceptionally important in 2002 in Sunderland when the local police force were telling Turkish supporters to
01:04:42 force were telling Turkish supporters to go into town in Sunland. And I went on all the Turkish radio and stations and said, "Don't go into town. There's groups of British fascists who are going to attack you." And I managed to persuade the Turkish fans to go straight
01:04:54 persuade the Turkish fans to go straight in into the ground. Uh so that was important also in my in my own it's not my town. I'm not from Sunland but I'm from down the road anyway.
01:05:05 from down the road anyway. Uh next document please. Uh
01:05:09 Uh this is to do with the the the building workers group uh which was uh led by Brian Higgins. Is that right? Yes indeed. It it that that pamphlet uh
01:05:20 Yes indeed. It it that that pamphlet uh is uh was published by the Colin Road Center as it says rank and file abroad left. The differences me and Dave Smith could argue about that all the time. I
01:05:32 could argue about that all the time. I still think it'd be better if he was up here because they've done far better work than I ever conducted. Uh but the is the argument was and this is something which I argued with Mark Jenner about ironically. I hadn't
01:05:43 Jenner about ironically. I hadn't thought about this at the time but on a Uh the first day I came, the second day I came and I walked through there the other day to Hackne. I went to Broadway Market. Okay. And that was the place
01:05:56 Market. Okay. And that was the place where three workers had put some stuff into a sewage system and they'd gone down too early and they had been killed and they took me back to me dad and all
01:06:08 and they took me back to me dad and all the all the times he was coming home early from building sites where workers had been killed and I just thought that's a disgrace. And then so that was in my mind all the time. And what
01:06:19 in my mind all the time. And what happened was there was three building workers a week were being killed. Now I don't know if you know the statistics but the statistics are of say 100 people that get killed when they do the research for this 70% are as
01:06:32 they do the research for this 70% are as a result of bad practices by management. Okay. Now you what you have to get what you have to get is the politics of this at this point has to be explained to to
01:06:43 at this point has to be explained to to make this understand. And I'm sorry to take a couple of minutes, but the situation was it was being argued that the trade union officials were not doing anything about this. And so it was
01:06:54 anything about this. And so it was argued that we should uh break the law, which was defy the anti-trade union laws by putting pickets on workplace gates where workers were being killed. And so the intention was and we did carry this
01:07:06 the intention was and we did carry this out into practice on a number of occasions. We went along to those sites. We said to workers, "Your mates have been killed yesterday. we need you to stop work and they asked us why would we say firstly out of solidity secondly the
01:07:17 say firstly out of solidity secondly the only way you're going to get any justice and stop the further debts of building workers is by hitting profits and you need to stop work and that caused absolute apoplelexi amongst yukat
01:07:29 absolute apoplelexi amongst yukat amongst the TNG and amongst the JMB as it was I was in the JMG as a JMW using as a youngster before it moved to uh 82 where B stands for boiler makers which
01:07:40 where B stands for boiler makers which nobody knows what it stands for what's a boiler maker and anybody else has a boiler. So any no but you need to understand this is it this is very very important for me and it's one of the reasons why I'm here. At the same time
01:07:51 reasons why I'm here. At the same time they were talking about trying to get what was called a corporate manslaughter to act into it. And that booklet was on Brian Higgins's uh blacklisting file but also what they were trying to do was to
01:08:04 also what they were trying to do was to stop that campaign. Okay. And they were going to pretend that they were going to do something about the deaths on the building sites. So when the Yokat official sued Brian Higgins, okay, that
01:08:17 official sued Brian Higgins, okay, that was led by a leading civil rights solicitor. Well, I won't I I'll get into trouble if I say our name, I guess, at this particular situation. Okay. Okay. And so the issue at hand was we were
01:08:30 And so the issue at hand was we were saying a corporate manslaughter at law will make no difference to the building workers. None whatsoever. None whatsoever. We need to stop the sites. We have to stop the sites. we have to
01:08:41 We have to stop the sites. we have to stop the s that and that's why civil action was taken over that booklet and we were right and it has proved to be the case we would we won the civil rights case but we lost the struggle
01:08:54 rights case but we lost the struggle okay we lost that struggle okay and as a consequences of it hundreds of building workers continue to get killed and that is that is a crime and I argued
01:09:06 and that is that is a crime and I argued with Mark Cassidy as it was because he was a building worker that it was a disgrace and that there should be laws that would prevent these things. I actually said to him, you know, there I didn't actually say to him, but
01:09:17 didn't actually say to him, but obviously you're a copper. You need to go out and do those things. But that was their responsibility. That was the police's responsibility. Them and the health and safety executive were charged with taking up cases against employers
01:09:28 with taking up cases against employers who were responsible for the deaths of building workers. They have that responsibility. They didn't do that. They didn't want to do that. Okay. So when they were talking about violence, the violence of working-class people's
01:09:40 the violence of working-class people's lives are exemplified in that booklet, which is the best booklet that was done at the end of last century on the trade junior movement by far. By far there's no similar book, but that's the
01:09:51 no similar book, but that's the importance to it. So we got the corporate crime responsibility and it's a handful of people have gone and none of the big people have gone. None of the people obviously at Grenville will be
01:10:02 people obviously at Grenville will be gone to prison. None of these people will be gone to prison. We know that. I mean I I can eat, you know, I could I I'm not worth a lot of money, but I'd back everything on it that way. They
01:10:13 back everything on it that way. They ain't going to go to prison. And we know um being a building worker was part of Mark Jenner's legend. As I used to say to him, you don't look I used to say to him when he used to come
01:10:24 used to say to him when he used to come to Colin Roson for you don't look much like a building work because you're never dirty. Um and we know that he became became involved in the Bryant Brian became the secretary defense campaign as well.
01:10:35 secretary defense campaign as well. He became the secretary. I've subly seen some letters where he's written to written to trade journalists. Yeah. He was acting obviously as as as a fraud. There were other
01:10:46 as as as a fraud. There were other around the building work group where he was exceptionally brave. The the picketing the picketing s mentioned that to do with bike chain. Yeah, he was very brave. If we can go to
01:10:57 Yeah, he was very brave. If we can go to the next document please. So this is again uh an RPM publication. That's revolutions per minute isn't it? Which was one of the the CRC.
01:11:09 Which was one of the the CRC. You can see at the bottom it's the Patan Center. The Patan Center was the only organization that the uh trade union that the Colin Ro Center had a working
01:11:21 that the Colin Ro Center had a working relationship with and it was the Patan Center through Mary Nellis who came to the center at the same time as we were being burgled and we took up the issue of the peace process. To be fair, most
01:11:33 of the peace process. To be fair, most of the people involved in the Colon Road Center hadn't really been as as Allison mentioned done right the the uh as mentioned had no knowledge of of violent whereas I had a knowledge of violence
01:11:45 whereas I had a knowledge of violence since the early '7s. My best mate was on the false road in 1971. So you had a a good understanding of the troubles in Northern Ireland. I I call it a war. You can call it what
01:11:56 I I call it a war. You can call it what you want, but for me it was a war. My mate my mate had a weapon when he walked down the false road in 71. And in relation to the Patanukan Center, there was a relationship there that we'll we'll look at as well a little bit later. Moving on to the next,
01:12:08 later. Moving on to the next, we didn't have a delegation, by the way, at the Dur. Uh Steve was unsure about that, but we we never had a delegation. To be fair, the delegation we went on in 1995 when I realized it was going to
01:12:19 1995 when I realized it was going to make me missing the first game of the season. I was deeply disappointed. Well, got beat as well. So, politics is very important, but football trumps. I wanted to go on the week before. Next
01:12:30 I wanted to go on the week before. Next document, please.
01:12:34 Again, another another document um in in commemoration of those who have suffered.
01:12:40 suffered. You have to separate the the one on the right. I'm I'm more than happy about that. We had massive dues and massive support around the the criminal justice act and still got mates of mine who came and did stewarding and stuff for some
01:12:52 and did stewarding and stuff for some events that were put on uh still bounces around around London. Uh but that that was the that was the the march. There was obviously we that wasn't just this. We had posters. We had uh we had a lot
01:13:06 We had posters. We had uh we had a lot of people on that that and that as I said that's the point we we were just starting to move to. We had well actually we had moved we'd had the burglary not because of the burglary but
01:13:17 burglary not because of the burglary but the facilities disabled people couldn't get into the place. So we'd moved to a shop floor premises uh out of Dston and down to on to Mar Street on the Pembria
01:13:28 down to on to Mar Street on the Pembria estate.
01:13:28 estate. Can I just ask you one thing about um the top right hand paragraph that last sentence? We are raising some of our concerns in order to discuss how to build genuine and lasting workingclass
01:13:41 build genuine and lasting workingclass community resistance to the state. That's it. Yeah. Now, in terms of the word resistance, um we we've we've heard um evidence about what does resistance mean? What does um
01:13:55 mean? What does um violence mean and and and words like that? Does resistance here in this context mean anything to do with violence or subversion or anything like that?
01:14:06 Well, you've just got to look into our campaign was against what If you're going to on a on a general political term, we're against the violence of
01:14:17 term, we're against the violence of capitalism, okay, which was poverty in particular, massive amounts of poverty in in in in Hackne, you know, on the Pemry estate or the rest of it. So, for
01:14:29 Pemry estate or the rest of it. So, for example, Alassie Georgina, for example, she did stuff around housing. So, we regularly had stuff where people were trying to get better places to live, but there's only so many better places you
01:14:41 there's only so many better places you can get to live. So we would we would seek and we were unsuccessful in this and it's what contributed to the closure of the center. We wanted people who were campaigning on their own individual
01:14:52 campaigning on their own individual issues to become active members in a column road center to campaign on an issue which was of importance to them. Housing happened to be one not just poling. In terms of resistance we wanted
01:15:03 poling. In terms of resistance we wanted a general resistance. I'm an anti- capitalist. I ultimately believe that system of profit [cough] in the now especially in a world of half the world's not eaten properly uh is is
01:15:15 the world's not eaten properly uh is is a system that needs to replace just as feudalism was replaced I don't believe however it will just be replaced without resistance and that's the where the word resistance comes from uh do you mean it
01:15:26 resistance comes from uh do you mean it involved violence if we got attacked yeah it meant it meant we would we would resist I've I've made no doubts about that
01:15:36 that If somebody attacks me or intends to attack me, then I'll do I'll do my best to resist and I'll do my best to organize people to resist. Do you know what I mean? It's going to go out on the streets attacking people just generally
01:15:47 streets attacking people just generally willy-nilly. That sort of stuff. That'd be absolutely pointless. We have to win working-class people to our to our our situation. I had loads of my mates who been the British army strongly disagree
01:15:58 been the British army strongly disagree with their politics. But if I ever be with one of the two know they've died in the men they've got somebody I know is a par that sort of stuff I'll uh firstly I
01:16:09 par that sort of stuff I'll uh firstly I wouldn't be able to win a scrap with them anyway. So there's no there's absolutely no doubt about that anyway. So no it means it means it's a general collective sense rather than the things
01:16:20 collective sense rather than the things in the political in the political. No to be honest with you. I mean, we we've had this I mean that particularly when when when I was involved in because I was the elected I was elected [snorts]
01:16:31 I was the elected I was elected [snorts] to the a post that was important and we were made sure that people didn't get elected wasn't a believe you me it didn't make you wealthy post and uh some of the stuff that people would say
01:16:42 some of the stuff that people would say we would do this this and this
01:16:46 I'm not a pacifist but you would think I was a pacifist to be frank I was looking at these things saying did I really say that I'm I'm slightly confused.
01:16:57 that I'm I'm slightly confused. I said that and to be to to be fair, the amounts of violence I seen associated with the Conro and it was as nothing compared to the violence that I seen up until certainly until Hillsbor uh came
01:17:09 until certainly until Hillsbor uh came around. By the time Hillsbor came in the 80s, every away game you went with Sulland there was fighting. I mean everywhere you went there was fighting at the football. After Hillsborough people quite rightly they got into
01:17:20 people quite rightly they got into taking ecstasy. Not me personally. Never took drugs in me life. I think I once had some cannabis in a cake and I think Can can I bring you back to the the documents? I think we're going off on a tangent, but um the last I mean
01:17:32 tangent, but um the last I mean the last two documents I'm very English. I go to football matches and I drink beer and that's it really. You know, there's no more than that. [laughter] There's no more than that. The last two documents I think we have to see together. So it's actually the
01:17:44 to see together. So it's actually the the the final document is the the the front of this exhibit. So this is the community defense uh publication. Yeah. Yeah. Uh from March 1993. It's looking at cops
01:17:58 Uh from March 1993. It's looking at cops stay
01:18:00 stay the previous exhibit greatly is is within that publication. So again, that's uh the sorts of work that you were involved with
01:18:12 that you were involved with opposing corruption within the absolutely very proud of all the people that played whatever role uh that they did. They did an absolutely magnificent magnificent job in defending the
01:18:24 magnificent job in defending the community. It's it's why obviously when uh you know the Patan Center uh wanted to do things in England as this was the best known and don't forget we've had
01:18:35 best known and don't forget we've had people here and I'm not knocking them. I'm not knocking them. We've had representatives of of similar organizations. They were all state funded. They were all state funded. None of us were state funded. We'd have
01:18:46 of us were state funded. We'd have counselors getting up and saying we've got to stop the funding. They would get up and say this group is too successful. we have to stop the funding and people would say to them there was one famous case in Hackne
01:18:57 there was one famous case in Hackne Council where one of them got made a big speech about HD and at the end basically said you got to stop the funding and they said to him they don't fund them and he said well they should in order
01:19:08 and he said well they should in order that they could stop the funding that so that's how successful it had become you know
01:19:13 know I'd like to move on if we can to the actual targeting of Mark Jenner um so if I can show you the document in relation to his targeting strategy from 1995.
01:19:24 to his targeting strategy from 1995. Right.
01:19:24 Right. Uh the inquiry understands that he joined the SDS in September 1994 and he was deployed into the field on the 20th of February 1995.
01:19:35 of February 1995. The targeting strategy is in uh Mark Meetoff's bundle B20 MPS0735
01:19:44 326 and it's a document of the 1st of February 1995.
01:19:58 So we can see here that this is a a an SDS operational strategic report. Uh this is something that was in your bundle. I'd like to refer you
01:20:09 bundle. I'd like to refer you specifically if I can to paragraph 1.4 that looks at the short-term and long-term objectives.
01:20:24 So two strategic objectives. First shortterm one is to uh participate in public order events of interest to anarchists
01:20:37 and in the long term DC Jenner will have scope to develop contacts with more security conscious anarchists involved in criminal activity in any of the
01:20:48 in criminal activity in any of the following fields and it lists anti-fascist for example Solidarity Federation East London anti-fascist action or environmentalist for example, Earth Liberation Front or
01:21:00 for example, Earth Liberation Front or Animal Rights, for example, the Animal Li Liberation Front. Um, paragraph 2.1 and 2.2
01:21:12 Um, paragraph 2.1 and 2.2 go on to describe the nature of anarchist groups. And if you can take a moment just to read that.
01:21:30 So this presents the SDS understanding of of anarchist groups. Paragraph 2.3 please.
01:21:45 Um leading figures are noted as Norman Blair of London class war and Mark Metaf of the Hackne Community Defense Association.
01:21:58 Community Defense Association. It says they are often involved in coordination of oppos opposition to Hackne Council for instance in housing environment and education policy government policy the criminal justice
01:22:10 government policy the criminal justice act and immigration matters etc. local racist activity campaigns by British National Party and local police
01:22:21 and local police uh
01:22:21 uh allegations of harassment, racism, wrongful arrest etc. And depending on those allegations of harassment, I think they had been proven by then.
01:22:32 they had been proven by then. And even even at the court of appeal, police officers evidence was being knocked back on the basis that judges were saying that the evidence against
01:22:43 were saying that the evidence against people came from unreliable witnesses. Those unreliable witnesses were Metropolitan Police officers. So they couldn't even get that correct. They
01:22:54 couldn't even get that correct. They couldn't even from the very start admit that what was being engaged in by Hackne Community Defense Association was criminal activity by the police. There's been no doubt about that. So there even
01:23:08 been no doubt about that. So there even from the very start of his thingy is based on some on a rewrite of history. That is a rewrite of history. There's no allegations. Those are proven. We had
01:23:19 allegations. Those are proven. We had two world in action programs and one one uh was it two world in actions and one panorama program. They're not allegations. They are proven. So that to
01:23:30 allegations. They are proven. So that to be fair firstly the stuff about the HCD thing that is wrong. There's no doubt about that wrong. So they but yeah they're not allegations. There's plenty of other stuff I can pick pick apart in
01:23:42 of other stuff I can pick pick apart in there but they're not allegations. Well, one thing
01:23:45 one thing even even Hackne police themselves were admitting there weren't allegations, they were facts. Yeah, I I I don't think it's disputed that there were problems. Well, I'm not disputing what you're
01:23:57 Well, I'm not disputing what you're seeing, but what I'm seeing is what's written down here where they see allegations that it's wrong and it comes up, doesn't it, in part of the thing where one police officer says he's going
01:24:08 where one police officer says he's going to do something about it, you know? I mean, absolute fantasy. I mean just utter fantasy to be to be frank. What I'd like to ask you about this document in that um it's focusing on anarchism.
01:24:19 anarchism. I'm not an anarchist. I've never been an anarchist. I could to be fair I could understand why they might see it because troskist would say that I was an anarchist and anarchist would say that I was a troskist. So I can I can give them
01:24:31 was a troskist. So I can I can give them I can give them that. They they I can I can understand why. So it's not the case. I yeah I could understand why people would say that as long as they don't say I'm a Newcastle
01:24:42 long as they don't say I'm a Newcastle fan I don't care that's the truth of the matter that's it really the last sentence here says depending on circumstances such opposition may be vocal or violent what do you say about
01:24:54 vocal or violent what do you say about that uh vocal surely that's where does it say that please last sentence and paragraph
01:25:00 paragraph be very very vocal and if the bay and I mean
01:25:04 mean okay we might as well get it out in the In 1990, combat 18 mag combat 18 was set up. Okay. And on the front cover of the
01:25:15 up. Okay. And on the front cover of the first issue, I was on the front cover. Okay. And in the second one, my address was there. Okay. So, check that in. Okay. This is an
01:25:27 So, check that in. Okay. This is an organization which has been described in v in various ways. Okay. The address which was given was given to them without doubt by the Metropolitan Police. How do I know that? Because at
01:25:38 Police. How do I know that? Because at the time I was being charged with something which was subsequently dropped. And the address that they had for me was the school next door. Okay. Which was number three instead of number
01:25:49 Which was number three instead of number two.
01:25:51 two. Magazine which came out had my address on as the wrong address. The only place that that could have come from was the Metropolitan Police. Who was the person putting out that magazine? The person
01:26:03 putting out that magazine? The person who put out that magazine subsequently stabbed to death one of his best mates. What did he do when he was stabbed when he stabbed those two people before he went to give evidence in terms and he
01:26:15 went to give evidence in terms and he got sent down to p. He got sent to prison. What did he do? He asked for his two handlers from the police from different departments of the police to appear to actually have evidence with
01:26:27 appear to actually have evidence with him. So here we've got here we've got a magazine run by a lad who committed murder who had place handlers and that evidence that details on my address was
01:26:38 evidence that details on my address was given to them by the Metropolitan Police. Now what am I supposed to do if somebody's going to come around my house or make it difficult? I ain't got I certainly was not going to stand on ceremony to be attacked.
01:26:50 ceremony to be attacked. So So what you're saying is if there was violence it would be in self-defense. I it would be in self-defense but if somebody come around my house if somebody come around my house I wasn't
01:27:01 somebody come around my house I wasn't going to be I certainly was not me personally I was not going to be hit first you can be guaranteed of that anybody who come my house or the premises the rest of the stuff was not it would it would be it would be dealt
01:27:13 it would it would be it would be dealt with
01:27:14 with and if the other person uh other person uh came off worse well I'll take I'll take my chances. Can I ask you to look at paragraph 2.6 six and 2.7
01:27:25 six and 2.7 which describe the SDS perceived threat posed by anarchists. I'm not I can't speak about that. Honestly I I mean I mean on the first day I arrived
01:27:36 mean I mean on the first day I arrived in Hackne. Right. Can I just say can I just describe this situation? Right. I went onto the estate the anarchist blew up a car. Okay. Over the squat and things. Right. was the
01:27:48 the squat and things. Right. was the first year I got chased by the police and I got chased by the anarchists who knew I was not an anarchist. So, it's not there's no there's no secret about the they're all recorded. All these incidents are recorded.
01:27:59 incidents are recorded. But what what what I'm wanting to look at is just the targeting strategy and the the accuracy of this particular document because it seems that this is the one that sets out Mark Jenner's
01:28:10 the one that sets out Mark Jenner's targeting and why he's targeted into the CRC and in particular to report on you. I have no idea. So just having a general sense of
01:28:18 sense of it's wrong where they're coming from. It's wrong. You say it's not accurate. The the the truth of the matter is and I'm not an anarchist. I'm I'm I'm dismissive of anarchism to be frank. I
01:28:30 dismissive of anarchism to be frank. I think that most anarchists don't work hard enough uh in their politics and I think they pick and choose what actions or activities to think. and my experiences. Uh best example, the best
01:28:43 experiences. Uh best example, the best example which I can was uh when we held the uh the uh tofac square defendants camp here stuff we had we had no hang on a second we had no load of meetings to organize these events. Okay, on the de
01:28:56 organize these events. Okay, on the de note the anarchist the me anarchist involved who's appeared regularly will appear regularly at this event. He was outvoted. He was outvoted is one thing. I was the first person there at the
01:29:07 I was the first person there at the conference and he'd swept the whole of the agenda back to the one which he'd been out voted for. If you asked me was I going to get violent at that point I was like furious absolutely furious that
01:29:20 was like furious absolutely furious that he had no right to do so. He was told directly we switch back the agenda that we were and that that's how how I felt about that. There were other there were other they worked very hard anarchists
01:29:31 other they worked very hard anarchists were not running the Colin Ro Center. There were anarchists involved but they didn't they and many of them were actively involved and there were the things but I'm I'm not an anarchist. I'm
01:29:42 things but I'm I'm not an anarchist. I'm not a Troskist either to be fair. So okay just
01:29:45 okay just and I think it's clear within the left-wing groups and the people who were organizing there were political differences as well. Massive political differences. They were resolved in terms of they were resolved by vigorous Mr. If I can if I can draw
01:29:57 by vigorous Mr. If I can if I can draw your attention. What you need to understand is all of these issues are resolved through discussions and disagreements. Sometimes the left does not go fighting with each other. It ences in vigorous discussions.
01:30:10 other. It ences in vigorous discussions. Often people falling out long term uh about about these situations but is not a violent it's not a violent movement. It doesn't. It doesn't. It isn't a violent [clears throat] movement.
01:30:21 movement. Trigger any violence that would be of any interest to police. Is that your evidence?
01:30:25 evidence? Events trigger violence. Yeah. Of course they of course they do. We're dealing with very serious political subjects in which people feel exceptionally passionate about. Of absolutely of of
01:30:36 passionate about. Of absolutely of of course they do. And it comes into conflict with the state and what happens. There's no there's no question about that. People will look after themselves. But we didn't go to meetings and start falling out with each other.
01:30:47 and start falling out with each other. We have discussion. We have debate. And people who do go to meetings and start throwing their weights around, they get expelled.
01:30:55 expelled. Can I ask you to look at paragraph 2.8 which looks at um the the different approach between the SDS
01:31:06 the different approach between the SDS and the security service assessment. So we have the SDS um
01:31:13 um the SDS's perspective
01:31:17 uh and this is a particular question this is a particular paragraph that you comment on in your witness statement where you say that well the SDS assessment in terms of any uh a
01:31:29 assessment in terms of any uh a perceived need to report on you is different to that of the security service assessment. Do you want to say anything in relation to this in terms of that thing? There's absolutely nothing that I can say say
01:31:44 absolutely nothing that I can say say about class war and I I can't I can't comment can't comment on on class war. Well, the SDS is saying that actually
01:31:55 Well, the SDS is saying that actually um a loose federation or network of small groups of anarchists do have an influence that is far more pervasive than is allowed in the security service assessment. So, the security services
01:32:06 assessment. So, the security services weren't particularly interested, but the uh the police SDS uh were. Do you have anything to say about that? [snorts] I stacks I could see it, but I I
01:32:18 I stacks I could see it, but I I I find that I suppose the only word I can think of is ridiculous. Okay. Paragraph 3.3, please. This is in relation to the strategy uh that Mark Jenner was to take.
01:32:34 He says that London class war and the uh Hackne community defense association are probably not worthy of monitoring in terms of their own importance, but both are assessed to be suitable vehicles for
01:32:45 are assessed to be suitable vehicles for an undercover officer establishing an anarchist reputation. So it appears here that this is a a a vehicle for Mark Jenner to then
01:32:58 vehicle for Mark Jenner to then integrate within other groups. um from your experience of some of the groups that he did ultimately infiltrate, so um Antifascist
01:33:11 ultimately infiltrate, so um Antifascist Action and Red Action, did his relationship with you and his experience with the CRC actually gain
01:33:22 experience with the CRC actually gain him access to those other groups or would he have been able to infiltrate those groups without using CRC and you as a stepping stone into those leftwing
01:33:34 as a stepping stone into those leftwing groups.
01:33:35 groups. I can't say if another approach would have been a stepping stone. Steve Hedley explained it exceptionally well. Uh whilst I was happy to attend from about
01:33:46 whilst I was happy to attend from about 1992
01:33:48 1992 onwards anti-fascist action events as they were a successful anti-fascist organization. me and myself as a relationship between my former comrades. I had been in red
01:33:59 my former comrades. I had been in red action and I'll explain why I was in red action and I had been in anti-fascist action. My reputation with the leading lights in in those organizations was one of great hostility. So uh the uh it was
01:34:13 of great hostility. So uh the uh it was unlikely well I felt on their basis it would be unlikely that they would think that I was a person that they would want to uh associate with another
01:34:24 to uh associate with another organization. They might want to pick him off to become actively involved in their organization, but my reputation wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't be I wouldn't think that worthy. No chance.
01:34:36 I wouldn't think that worthy. No chance. Last point on this document then. So, paragraph 4.4
01:34:44 goes o over to the next page. It says it's also envisaged that the officer will initially devote substantial time to nurturing important
01:34:55 substantial time to nurturing important social contacts in Hackne, ideally when he first approaches a group like the HCDA.
01:35:03 He will already have a believable short-term background in the area. for example, his profile would receive a significant boost if at his first important meetings he was seen in the
01:35:14 important meetings he was seen in the company of a friend end quote rather than appearing as a loner. Suffice to say here, much time has been spent discussing relevant aspects of
01:35:26 spent discussing relevant aspects of trade craft with the officer. No doubt he will have benefited from advice given by former operatives in this and allied fields. Now from your witness statement
01:35:37 fields. Now from your witness statement it appears that you recall that first meeting Mark Jenner when he approached you. I think you were at a stall in the Halvi event in 1995
01:35:48 Halvi event in 1995 and he approached you. Do you recall whether he approached you with a friend? No sword.
01:35:56 No sword. Mark Jenner was on his sword when he approached you and he he quickly invagled himself into a close friendship with you. Is that right?
01:36:06 right? He became a mate of mine. Yes. And that that that is the case. Yeah. You say that he came to your f your flat regularly. You used to go to the pub and football together.
01:36:17 football together. People to be fair, people didn't come around my flat an awful amount. Uh so uh usually when I left people, it was late at night. Uh
01:36:28 at night. Uh I I did go drinking initially when I moved to London. I drank a lot. But by that period of time, that wasn't the case. It certainly wasn't the case at weekends. Uh Friday I I would if if I
01:36:40 weekends. Uh Friday I I would if if I had something on politically then I do that politically or otherwise I'd be [clears throat] I'd be going I'd be going to match. I would get a lift up at my state in the morning of mine up to Sunland. I would go on the train and on
01:36:53 Sunland. I would go on the train and on on Sundays I played I played football. I played football uh some very good teams uh that were had up in uh Cannbury and then we played and then I played for
01:37:04 then we played and then I played for some of the Turkish groups. We got paid I got paid for for playing football. There was betting going on and then I would go on the afternoon. I sometimes play two games. I'd go and play for the
01:37:15 play two games. I'd go and play for the London supporters branch. So uh but with Mark Jenner involved in No, none of those things. None Mark Jenner Mark Jenner didn't Mark Jenner was of
01:37:27 was of It would be I'd stack some mates and and and to suggest that Mark was somehow like especially in terms of that situation. That's that's that's not the case.
01:37:39 That's that's that's not the case. Absolutely. Absolutely not. At one stage he came up to to Sunderland with me, didn't he? I he came for the TR. Yeah. And did he visit mom and dad's
01:37:50 Yeah. And did he visit mom and dad's house as well? He'd agreed. My mom, my dad by that point he had he had dementia, Alzheimer's. They never actually found out what he had. And eventually I moved home to look after
01:38:01 eventually I moved home to look after him for a couple of days a week, take him out of the home, which he got put into a home. And uh he'd become uh quite violent. Uh and uh
01:38:12 violent. Uh and uh so I me wanted I had thousands of football program I mean thousands of football program. I still got thousands of football programs, but not only the Sunland ones. I've got obviously for me writing and uh
01:38:24 writing and uh was quite keen to come up with you. Yeah, he's very keen. I was he's he's very keen and and and and to be honest, he went in with the Tran fans. Tran mayor had their usual fairly pulpy
01:38:35 mayor had their usual fairly pulpy support. They're not the greatest supporters. And the reason why I mentioned that is because obviously it's ultimately which made me think well he's he's he's not what he said. So you write about that later, don't you
01:38:47 So you write about that later, don't you in some artic of course I went I went went to the match as usual stuff and my mate who's there not very clever nickname he's called because he sports tran and they're from Swindon as
01:38:58 sports tran and they're from Swindon as it g me support from Swindon sounds bizarre doesn't it to be fair and it just like sounds bizarre and and actually the other lad we come from he's made from who's support he's got an NF
01:39:09 made from who's support he's got an NF tattoo on his on his on his on his hand basically which is an interesting thing because he's not an fascist anymore but he's never took NF off his arm uh and stuff and uh and he he I I said, "Oh,
01:39:21 stuff and uh and he he I I said, "Oh, you'll know Mark. He goes to half the games." And he he's sort of looking at him going, "Never seen this block before in me life." So at that point, I thought, "This doesn't work out. Just doesn't it I'd already began to have
01:39:32 doesn't it I'd already began to have some doubts. Uh I'd never really shared them with people in the common road center. I shared them with my closest female friend. She won't mind her name. She's called Carol of Nana for Donkey Donkeys." And uh and that was that was
01:39:46 Donkeys." And uh and that was that was it. I'd already said I I cannot really work out what this what this what this lad is basically. Uh was there any um work reason for Mark Jenner to accompany you up north? Was
01:39:58 Jenner to accompany you up north? Was there any political meetings going on? No idea. No, I was going to see me I was going to see me mom and dad. I was going to see I was going to pick up the programs going to bring them back. The plan was to sell them. I did sell them.
01:40:09 plan was to sell them. I did sell them. Date regret sell them. One of the worst decisions I ever made in me life. and uh and uh that was it. And I was very grateful. I was very pleased. I didn't
01:40:20 grateful. I was very pleased. I didn't think we'd get there. Uh he had a a leak in the car in the van, an oil leak. And you know, I was like amazed that I wasn't a driver myself then. We went. I was very pleased he went. I wasn't happy
01:40:32 was very pleased he went. I wasn't happy trying got a draw. They did bait us the last day of the season, but we had got promoted. Uh so I was more than happy about that. Uh that was it. It's a rubbish game.
01:40:43 that was it. It's a rubbish game. Terrible game. You terrible match. You're laughing, but it was a terrible football match. You did say at the very beginning of your witness statement that you have a very good memory and it seems that you
01:40:54 very good memory and it seems that you you particularly I mean I once on a radio station where they asked me questions about what days was this of the week and I got all them right and they said, "Well, that's unbelievable." And I said, "Well, it's not that unbelievable because if you'd
01:41:05 not that unbelievable because if you'd asked in May, June or July, I wouldn't know any of the dates because I couldn't locate them around the football. I can't do that now. My memory is not that strong.
01:41:13 strong. You say in your witness statement that that there's no way that Mark Jenner could have known about all the decisions that you made in relation to CRC. Impossible. At the same time, I was I was we'd set up a group called Sun and
01:41:25 was we'd set up a group called Sun and Fans Against Racism. We were laughing at the supporters because there was considerable despite the fact that we've had black footballers for many years at Southern Football Club, there was still a lot of stuff and subsequently the the
01:41:37 a lot of stuff and subsequently the the the the club was forced to re to recognize that there was uh supporters amongst the club who were campaigning against racism. I had first given out I
01:41:48 against racism. I had first given out I never actually gave out the leafford. The first attempt by the national front of leafford at sland was their last and that was against Tottenham Hotspur in 1977 and there was a leafford called raw which I've never seen uh called roer
01:42:01 which I've never seen uh called roer against racism. The national front turned up and they got chased and they never came back. You you say in your statement that the purpose of the relationship with Mark
01:42:12 purpose of the relationship with Mark Jenner was just a giant listening exercise that was used to collect information. Can you give us an idea of how much of the CRC work was actually public in
01:42:23 the CRC work was actually public in terms of campaigning leafleting? All it was public all I mean all of my work you know obviously you're not going to go and tell everything everything because
01:42:35 and tell everything everything because there's not anybody's interested why would you do why would you do that but we had minutes we circulated them to contacts we constantly encouraged new people to get involved if people came in
01:42:47 people to get involved if people came in with something which concerned them if we had somebody who could help help them set up a campaign or run stuff or get leafford For example, just down the road from us, there was a young man killed.
01:42:59 from us, there was a young man killed. He was called Andy Davyy. Okay, the police were doing nothing. He was an anarchist lad. Okay, we're doing nothing about it. And we wanted to find out who'
01:43:10 about it. And we wanted to find out who' killed him. In my case, information was shared with [snorts] me about who may or may not be okay. And that's that was the situation. And
01:43:21 that's that was the situation. And I was forced I was forced I was forced to pass that information thing. I had no problems in doing so. Didn't feel that things. We never got any justice uh for
01:43:32 things. We never got any justice uh for the lad.
01:43:32 the lad. How how much access did Mark Jenner have to people's personal data and legal information in relation to some of the campaigns that you were involved in?
01:43:43 campaigns that you were involved in? He he had I would say he had limited access to doing that. We were very conscious of people's purse. So if they were involved in cases and the rest of them but there were cases discussed
01:43:54 them but there were cases discussed issues which were discussed at meetings and people who were involved in campaigns he he would have some knowledge he would have some knowledge of the housing stuff for example because
01:44:05 of the housing stuff for example because he might well help out or assist people in talking to things he would know about he would we had so many I mean and he was in the premises
01:44:17 I mean and he was in the premises he
01:44:19 he So not not not a mass not he he would know he would know about the situations but he he wasn't in there going through the files and the rest of the stuff and
01:44:30 the files and the rest of the stuff and and he wasn't no so you told us already that at some stage when the HCDA moved out and CRC took over the policing issues
01:44:42 and CRC took over the policing issues uh uh cases you say in your witness statement that in 1996 CRC provided help through free legal advice sessions to 98 people in legal battles.
01:44:53 people in legal battles. I can't find that document. Legal battles with the police and and won 90 cases. Yes. Plus numerous housing cases. Incredible success rate as I said, but also based on the fact that the police
01:45:05 also based on the fact that the police once they knew the center was involved and we had the really top class solicitors, they would collapse the cases. Uh and um you you make the point uh quite clearly
01:45:16 you you make the point uh quite clearly that they're not anti police cases, but they're they're cases against the police in an attempt not to stand for bad policing. People who came in and we examined their cases and the solicitors examined the
01:45:28 cases and the solicitors examined the cases.
01:45:29 cases. And to be frank, if if if [clears throat] it was bleedingly obvious,
01:45:34 obvious, some of the cases we we would we would not want to take up, we'd advise them to go somewhere else. That's a bit of a bit of our judgment as well and things but we we knew some of the people who came
01:45:45 we we knew some of the people who came into came into the center and before then HCT were crooks and criminals. How much involvement did Mark Jenner have in those cases? Absolutely. He didn't have any involvement in those in those cases
01:45:58 involvement in those in those cases because the solicitors were bright solicitors, the cleverest in the country and they were not going to give him access to that that sorts of information. I understand an earlier police officer suggests that he had
01:46:10 police officer suggests that he had access to HCDS stuff. That that police officer is an absent out and out liar. Sir, I've got half an eye on the time. Is now a good time to take the midm morning break? Certainly. Um, [clears throat] we have a
01:46:22 Certainly. Um, [clears throat] we have a break of about 15 minutes. I've been here a couple of years. Yeah, you you know the routine. Okay. Get a cup of tea. So, I need to explain it. 15 minutes. Cheers.
02:04:22 Thank you. Mr. Metaf, I'd like to ask you if I can about a few of the justice campaigns that you were involved with. Um, in your witness statement, you talk
02:04:33 Um, in your witness statement, you talk about Brian Douglas, um, and his campaign. He was a a 30 33 year old black man who was arrested on the 3rd of May, 1995 by Kennington police officers.
02:04:47 May, 1995 by Kennington police officers. He was beaten to the head with police batterns and collapsed into unconsciousness at the police station and died 5 days later on the 8th of May, 1995.
02:04:59 1995. his family approached the Colin Roach Center. Is that right? Yes, that's correct. Can you explain why they came to you? um merely because of HCA's well because
02:05:11 um merely because of HCA's well because of HCDA's reputation and uh the fact that uh we were we were known for taking up people's
02:05:23 we were known for taking up people's cases and if we were asked for advice and support we would try and pass on the experiences that we had gained so they could run their campaigns
02:05:34 could run their campaigns in the best way possible. and a massive amount of accumulated experience combined with very great solicitors and barristers could be of use to those
02:05:45 barristers could be of use to those people in their campaigning. However, in this particular case also, there's no other way of putting it that the uh we were approached because of the fact
02:05:58 we were approached because of the fact that there were large numbers of community organizations in Brixton who the uh Douglas family didn't actually trust and they felt that there would be
02:06:11 trust and they felt that there would be uh competing forces some of which and so they asked us as a sort of neutral neutral group. It didn't go down awfully
02:06:22 neutral group. It didn't go down awfully well to be frank uh because of the differences in uh the color of the my the color of my skin compared to some of the community group campaigners that were
02:06:33 community group campaigners that were campaigning in the Brixton region. You say that what you did for the campaign was you held peaceful events, gave out leaflets
02:06:45 gave out leaflets and and and undertook searches for for witnesses. And that's what you tended to do for campaigns. Absolutely. the chaos uh there's
02:06:56 Absolutely. the chaos uh there's no events I mean uh that there was an attempt on anything that I was involved even when I was in a there was never any
02:07:08 even when I was in a there was never any in ever
02:07:10 in ever an intention to go and fighting with the police never was Mark Jenner involved in the Brian Douglas campaign he he he he must have been involved in the thing he didn't come to the he
02:07:21 the thing he didn't come to the he didn't come to the meeting in uh Brixham where the events and the fairly vigorous discussions took took place at those meetings. Some very high public
02:07:34 at those meetings. Some very high public profile figures came as well who were involved in TV, radio and press were involved in campaigning as well. He didn't come to those but he did come as I recall in his van and the rest. There
02:07:46 I recall in his van and the rest. There was so much going on. I kind of I can't I cannot remember his specific uh situation. The people in Brixton also were exceptionally well organized and
02:07:59 were exceptionally well organized and and and and so that was really we were just a bit of a neutral thing instead of groups and it to be fair the same situation happened with a lot of the Kurdish groups in in
02:08:10 with a lot of the Kurdish groups in in in Hackne. We were approached to chair meetings because we were we didn't have Mr. Mr. Metaf there's one report that I'd like to refer you to which is in relation to Brian Douglas. So if I can bring that up have a look at it.
02:08:22 bring that up have a look at it. It's in Mark Metaf's bundle B26 MPS 0245187.
02:08:32 It's report from the 10th of June 1995. I can't see. Oh, thank you. Can it should be up on your screen now. in relation to a march and rally. Um it said that the in terms of numbers
02:08:44 Um it said that the in terms of numbers attending 600 to 800 disorder non mood expectant. Um paragraph one
02:08:55 Um paragraph one if you'd like to just read that
02:09:06 in particular. It says that uh that the lack of any incident to set things off was fortuitous. Um what what do you say about that? Was it fortuitous that there was no disorder
02:09:17 it fortuitous that there was no disorder or was there any uh expectation of disorder?
02:09:21 disorder? Well, as I've just tried to say a few minutes back, the intention on any of these events was to prevent any confrontation between the demonstrators
02:09:32 confrontation between the demonstrators and the police. Okay. And can I just say that was generally the situation certainly what uh certainly the we couldn't stop people
02:09:43 uh certainly the we couldn't stop people if fighting with the police but for example on the day of the pole tax riots that took place in Halifax in Hackne sorry uh afterwards large numbers of
02:09:54 sorry uh afterwards large numbers of black youth turned up to have a scrap with the police mainly black youth and I spoke to them I told them what had happened and I asked them to go home and I said that was the situation and in
02:10:05 I said that was the situation and in that case we were we were fortunate because the black youth for lots of reasons uh and we know the reasons at the Colon Road Center for example
02:10:17 the Colon Road Center for example occasionally we had police officers who who rang us up who were telling us about black youth who were getting beaten up in the police station so we knew on a regular basis and the new police station
02:10:28 regular basis and the new police station was regarded as a for sorry I hadn't realized I'd put this on I I thought I turned it off. So yeah, so so the situation was the situation
02:10:39 so so the situation was the situation was
02:10:40 was for us we wanted we definitely didn't want any any violence absolutely no I can't say if it was fortuitous we can only do we can only do people who were
02:10:51 only do we can only do people who were distressed naturally distressed angry and upset so sometimes that that does [clears throat] break out in violence but uh certainly the intention of all of those events was that we didn't want
02:11:04 those events was that we didn't want Nate. We didn't want Nate bother. I mean, what what a group of people with tracksuits, t-shirts, and tops on. I mean, firstly, we we we'd lose. [laughter] I think I think I could have a fight.
02:11:16 I think I think I could have a fight. I'm not didn't want to lose. So, there's no chance of that really. No, no. In terms of the sway that you held within the community as well, I think it's
02:11:26 it's in the Brixton community. I had no sway. I had no way except for the fact that I was involved with the student the Brixton community and the people there didn't know anything anything about me but in terms of in Hackne you were you
02:11:39 but in terms of in Hackne you were you were well known and well respected in the community were w that wouldn't stop that wouldn't stop people it might help but that wouldn't stop people if they were angry and upset that no I mean I
02:11:51 were angry and upset that no I mean I didn't have this way where I could I'm not a community leader as such no I'm not suggesting that I' I'd try and win them over by the argument by the politics and the fact that at least they would do uh with my accent whereas the
02:12:04 would do uh with my accent whereas the Irish accent was knocked knocked the knocked yesterday wrongly. My accent would would would have some standing and and and they they would know that what I was doing was representing like a
02:12:16 was doing was representing like a workingass accent. People would know that some people might know me, but I wouldn't say that was the case. Certainly some of the the the young lads who I knew in in Hackne, they played football. I mean I played for a mixed
02:12:29 football. I mean I played for a mixed race team and I played for Turkish team. So I knew quite a lot of lads through the football. Uh you know and in the case the lad I used to play football we we used to have to it was the situation
02:12:40 we used to have to it was the situation we the lad used to go at the match with one of the teams we had to choose which car we went because if we went in one car in a nice car black car he was in his car we would get stopped and if we went in an old battered car we would get
02:12:52 went in an old battered car we would get the match. So when it was important I played inside forward to him playing center forward. So we were pretty and he was a very very good footballer played Saturday football for non-league teams and so to get him to play us. So we used
02:13:03 and so to get him to play us. So we used to say to him whatever you do take the old car don't take the new car. We had the situations cuz his boy is m although he's from mix not hang on a second this is important. We had a situation where we g the football and uh we got stopped
02:13:16 we g the football and uh we got stopped a number of times in the car and his boy you would look at his boy you wouldn't think he was mixed race and they would the cops would go and say you go and stand with your dad and I'd say I'm not his dad and the guy don't be shaky and
02:13:28 his dad and the guy don't be shaky and they would [clears throat] make him come and stand with him and I'm and he would say he would say that's me dad and we'd have a we'd have a we'd have a standoff we'd have we would leave the house half an hour early we'd have that's that was
02:13:40 an hour early we'd have that's that was the situation which took is in hockey when I went when I went and played football.
02:13:46 football. In terms of this document in and what happened on the Brian Douglas march at paragraph two, we can see that there's a potential incident where a black officer
02:13:57 potential incident where a black officer was surrounded
02:14:03 and that got very tense. Yes. And then stewards stepped in. Were you one of the stewards that stepped in? I wasn't one of the stewards that stepped in. I was not. But that that that's a that's a that is a fair that's
02:14:14 that's a that's a that is a fair that's a fair description I would say. But in terms of the stewards, was it generally that they were there to maintain order? Of course. Um and if there was some disorder,
02:14:27 Um and if there was some disorder, it was
02:14:28 it was it was to stop people getting arrested. But in terms of situations where they could be arrested and it was also in a simple situation in all these events is if the police act uh inappropriate or
02:14:40 if the police act uh inappropriate or aggressively is also to prevent the arrest of people who shouldn't get arrested. That's that's also a aspect of student.
02:14:47 student. And would it be fair to say that in terms of the any disorder that may come from different parts of the group that you had no control of? They weren't affiliated to see
02:14:58 affiliated to see in charge of the Metropolitan Police and the events were on many occasions where the Metropolitan Police introduced the violence to the events. What we wanted to do was to steward that ourselves to
02:15:09 to do was to steward that ourselves to make sure we had plenty of stewards that would prevent any incidents turning up. I we want we did not want the Metropolitan Police to be stewarding those events. And I made clear in any
02:15:20 those events. And I made clear in any discussions that I had on events like this that we would be able in a position to steward this. If if we couldn't then we didn't have the respect of the community. I want to think this is
02:15:31 community. I want to think this is people who died. We wish to pay honor to them at the same time as representing the grievances that took place. We didn't want but if people got arrested on these events, we would represent
02:15:43 on these events, we would represent them. Was there ever commu any communication between uh the CRC and the police before these events happened in terms of informing the police that there was a plan?
02:15:54 was a plan? Of course. Or was that generally publicized through leafleting and that sort of thing? Absolutely. Of course. in terms terms of the the the the the situation. We would tell them what was
02:16:06 situation. We would tell them what was happening and we would we would we would say when certainly in in Hackne [clears throat] there was absolutely never any need for the police to turn up on any HCD events. Never. We were never
02:16:17 on any HCD events. Never. We were never going to be attacked by fascists. People were extremely supportive for the work that we were doing. We had massive large community support. We didn't need events on on most of the events that I was
02:16:29 on on most of the events that I was involved with during the pray that I'm sure we can pick out a few. We didn't need the police to prevent anybody attacking us. And we were not going to go out of our way to attack other people. Never. And if we didn't if we
02:16:42 people. Never. And if we didn't if we didn't have we didn't have that situation, then realistically then we'd lost the support of the community. Were you involved in the Michael Mensson
02:16:54 Michael Mensson justice campaign? Uh not massively. I wasn't massively. I know about the campaign and I I think I think we offered some leaflets and the rest of the stuff and it's a name that I
02:17:06 rest of the stuff and it's a name that I remember. I'd have to be reminded about it.
02:17:10 about it. That's okay. No. Do can you tell us whether um uh Mark Jenner was involved in it?
02:17:17 in it? I can't. My apologies. Um, Joy Gardner is somebody that you say in your witness statement you knew well before she died. She was a a 40-year-old uh Jamaican
02:17:29 She was a a 40-year-old uh Jamaican mature student, mother to a 5-year-old boy. And she died on the 1st of August, 1993,
02:17:36 1993, which was 4 days after she was detained during a a police immigration raid on her home in Crouch End. Um,
02:17:47 Um, Mr. Metaf I understand you find this difficult and I don't I I won't go into how particularly she was restrained or died but
02:17:57 died but it isn't about actually her death at this point that I find difficult. Um uh I understand this is difficult um evidence for you, but I I would like to
02:18:10 evidence for you, but I I would like to just show a few press cutings if I can in relation to what was reported in the newspapers following her death. if if you allow me to
02:18:21 you allow me to by all means to to do that. But can I stress it's not Joyy's death that causes me concern in that respect. Although it's it's an absolute tragedy. It it is
02:18:33 it's it's an absolute tragedy. It it is the leadup to that death. And it is the fact that she was badly let down by community organization who should have supported her. And it
02:18:44 who should have supported her. And it also involves a situation that it was a unsuccessful political struggle that I had in order to ensure that she got the legal support
02:18:56 to ensure that she got the legal support which she required in order to fight her case. That's what upsets me. There's a mate of mine in it here in terms of that who could happily tell the thing the
02:19:07 who could happily tell the thing the leadup to that which was a long running struggle. I really like Joy Gardner. Thought she was a a really woman. [snorts]
02:19:23 If I can show you the first um press cutting which is from the Guardian on the 3rd of August 1993.
02:19:34 So this is just a couple of days after she had died. Um, and it relates to, if I can have paragraph
02:19:44 paragraph 11 up, please,
02:19:49 which is in relation to a phone call that the local MP Bernie Grant received. Nice slab Bernie. I'm sorry, what did you say? It's nice, Bernie.
02:20:00 It's nice, Bernie. Oh.
02:20:01 Oh. Um, and he rece he was Labour MP for Tottenham. Yeah. Wasn't he? and he received a phone call from Chief Inspector Mark Sanger of Edmonton Police
02:20:13 Inspector Mark Sanger of Edmonton Police to say that there's a a problem in Horny we want to tell you about. Mrs. Gardner became hysterical and violent and bit one of the police officers and she had to be restrained.
02:20:25 officers and she had to be restrained. Um, if I could take that down please. And the next extract is mm
02:20:36 extract is mm B109 UCPI
02:20:39 B109 UCPI 36645.
02:20:41 36645. It's a Daily Mail um article again from the same day, the 3rd of August 93. And paragraph nine
02:20:54 states that Scotland Yard, which had begun an investigation, said that during her arrest, she became abusive and bit an officer before collapsing. We can take
02:21:05 officer before collapsing. We can take that down, please. And the final press cutting I'd like to take you to is a Guardian article. Um, it's behind tab B119.
02:21:19 it's behind tab B119. UCPI 36634 from the 11th of August 93.
02:21:29 And and this section in column two
02:21:35 relates to solicitors acting for the three suspended officers who wish to make it clear that their clients had not spoken to the press or authorized any intermediary to do so.
02:21:48 authorized any intermediary to do so. And it's relating to articles that appeared in the evening standard on the 10th, so the day before the 10th of August 93, where an alleged
02:21:59 of August 93, where an alleged intermediary for the three suspended officers gave details of Joyy's violent behavior on the occasion when she was detained.
02:22:10 detained. Um
02:22:13 it notes here that um campaigners said that the article in relation to the Evening Standard article was an attempt to sully Mrs.
02:22:26 article was an attempt to sully Mrs. Gardner's name and the police are reopening wounds and spreading misinformation. We need to have a public inquiry to get at the truth. And that was somebody from the joint council for
02:22:37 was somebody from the joint council for the welfare. Yeah, I know. I know it was a lot. Yeah. Um, can I ask you just in terms of that information that was coming out soon after Joyy's death, did you know uh
02:22:50 after Joyy's death, did you know uh where that information was coming from and and did it did it chime with what you knew personally about Joy Gardner? I think that I mean the TL might as well
02:23:01 I think that I mean the TL might as well be told as I said it's a mate of mine here who played party to it. We had I worked at the trade union support unit. We had an organization next door to us
02:23:12 We had an organization next door to us which was supposed to service uh people who were asylum seekers, refugees, people threatened from removal and uh that organization
02:23:25 that organization who's I can't actually say what his wife is very well known um is um was not supporting information for people and I
02:23:37 supporting information for people and I did what I always do in such a situations if people come in uh I tried to get the help and support that they required. It was a field I didn't know anything about to be fair and although I
02:23:50 anything about to be fair and although I had volunteered at the Yian Resource Center in Birmingham through Muhammad Idrish uh in the 80s uh he was the first person to fight with a trade union
02:24:01 person to fight with a trade union support a deportation champion fantastic man um from Bangladesh and uh and so I tried to get them support uh the problem
02:24:12 tried to get them support uh the problem was when Joy came in I saw sort of exhausted that energies and efforts and and I uh basically was trying to get her help and support but I was unable. She
02:24:24 help and support but I was unable. She came in three times to see me and I wasn't able to get her support and uh she she disappeared. She was in a a
02:24:35 she she disappeared. She was in a a terrible state uh uh crying. Uh she was exceptionally depressed about the whole things. [clears throat] Uh she looked at that point a very uh
02:24:47 Uh she looked at that point a very uh broken figure. I was really upset and distressed. I said, "Look, give us your telephone number and the rest of the stuff." She obviously didn't trust me enough to do that. And then the the next
02:24:59 enough to do that. And then the the next thing I know was the time I seen in the Pas. Uh she was a I mean you kind of know everything about people. She seemed a very She seemed a a
02:25:12 people. She seemed a very She seemed a a very beautiful.
02:25:18 [snorts and clears throat] I have no idea. She none of the stuff that was said about Joy and I'm a pretty I know when people been around a lot of
02:25:30 I know when people been around a lot of violent people for lots of different reasons and stuff and all that. Joy Gardner was not like some of the lads I who got to football and all the rest of stuff. Lads who beat up their wives when
02:25:42 stuff. Lads who beat up their wives when I was growing up. Lads in the military.
02:25:49 I cannot I cannot say but that's not my that is definitely not my impression of the lassie. And uh it leaves me pretty
02:26:00 the lassie. And uh it leaves me pretty cold to be fair. And I have to say, you know, I was nearly in tears now, you know, but earlier on when I seen that cuz I didn't know this was coming, I
02:26:11 cuz I didn't know this was coming, I have to say I haven't really uh done the thing on it. Uh I mean the as as it happens, the subsequent argument I had with the person who didn't service the thing got exceptionally violent and I'm
02:26:24 thing got exceptionally violent and I'm exceptionally pleased. As I said, one of my mates is in here prevented that that violence breaking out on on myself. No, I think I think this is I think this is a lie about about Alassie. I that's just
02:26:37 a lie about about Alassie. I that's just not my impression of her. I'm sorry about uh early situation, but it it leaves me uh very very very cold. I have to say very cold about can't say much
02:26:49 to say very cold about can't say much more than that. Mr. Meov, that that's all I want to ask you about the the the justice campaigns. Um if I can move to a different topic now. Hi. In relation,
02:27:00 now. Hi. In relation, I appreciate that. In relation to the affiliation between CRC and some other left-wing groups,
02:27:09 groups, we didn't have affiliations. We had working relationships with people. We of course we did have Yeah, that's not true. My apologies. You are correct. Yeah. you address it in your witness statement anyway at paragraph 2.13
02:27:22 statement anyway at paragraph 2.13 and you say in terms of affiliation um there was a affiliation with AFA and IWCA
02:27:34 a affiliation with AFA and IWCA um so that was the the anti-fascist um action and the independent workingclass association um you were asked about a number of
02:27:45 um you were asked about a number of others as Well, in relation to East London AFA, um the Irish Republican Socialist Party, Red Action, and Unison, we never had affiliations.
02:27:57 we never had affiliations. Okay.
02:27:58 Okay. You didn't affiliate to the IRSP and you didn't affiliate to Red Action. They're separate political organizations in their own own rights. We had affiliations two organizations which
02:28:11 affiliations two organizations which sought affiliations and those two organizations didn't. AA was a combined set of groups that you participated in.
02:28:22 set of groups that you participated in. The idea that the IRSP would want an affiliation from the Colin Road Center HC or TOSO is is a absolute fantasy.
02:28:33 HC or TOSO is is a absolute fantasy. And and to be fair, you make that clear in your statement at paragraph 2.4. 4 you say you were only affiliated to AFA and the IW.CA but that that was pushed
02:28:44 and the IW.CA but that that was pushed strongly for by Mark Jenner. The IWC one was pushed for by um by Mark Jenner but was was was supported by people because
02:28:58 was was was supported by people because it was felt that there was a need for a uh political organization which represented working-class communities generally. it was felt to be uh a a a
02:29:11 generally. it was felt to be uh a a a good idea and despite my falling out with people in the from the past I thought it was a good idea. I still think it's a good idea. Before we get on to Mark Jenner's
02:29:23 Before we get on to Mark Jenner's reporting in relation to that, but did he actively push it? Yeah, but I mean uh in general he wasn't the only person who
02:29:34 in general he wasn't the only person who I rather he'd been speaking to other people, but it it wasn't he wasn't the only person uh uh pushing for that because it was an idea of its time and I and I think you you set out how
02:29:46 and I and I think you you set out how it's it was quite democratic. You would vote for that sort of thing, wouldn't you? Look, I was look, my my role as the coordinator of the Colin Road Center was that it was voted it I was voted into that position and the situation was if
02:29:59 that position and the situation was if people wanted to remove me, which is that they had they put it to the members and I could be removed on the spot that I I'm I'm for that. Every labor movement
02:30:10 I I'm I'm for that. Every labor movement position, every labor movement position, especially full-time trade union officers should be electable and immediately recallable in a new form of society. If you go to the large
02:30:21 society. If you go to the large assemblies, which I think would run society, that she or he would be immediately recallable that they they're supposed to act democratically. You're supposed to send she or he to that
02:30:33 supposed to send she or he to that meeting to represent to represent your views. And if they don't do so, they need recallable and replaceable. It's a principle I've held since I was a I can't even remember how long, but it's
02:30:45 I can't even remember how long, but it's a principle.
02:43:09 Um this is in relation to uh a plan to take over the BNP or NF pitches on Brick Lane.
02:43:19 Lane. It was a National Front event. generally the the National Front had been at Brickland for a very long time even before the BMP had really been actively
02:43:32 had really been actively in involved. And it and it says while some remained skeptical about the wisdom of uh such a confrontation notably Privacy Privacy
02:43:44 confrontation notably Privacy Privacy and Mark Metaf. Finally, it was agreed that if it was the wish of the local community to support such activity, then all the organizations present would pledge their
02:43:56 organizations present would pledge their support. So my question is firstly, do you recall uh yes that the the plan to uh go to Brick Lane
02:44:09 to uh go to Brick Lane and do you remember being skeptical about a confrontation on Brick Lane? Well, going back if you go back to the previous things. Okay.
02:44:22 previous things. Okay. Um could you just go back to and I'll just going to I want to say the reason why I was skeptical is that some of the organizations for example the uh the person identified as
02:44:34 example the uh the person identified as Lewis I knew for many many years the man was a fantasist and and so therefore I was skept I was skeptical about it. The man was a
02:44:45 skeptical about it. The man was a fantasist. The people involved in the the whatever they were at the co college group thing, they were fantasists. They believed stuff which didn't actually take take place. So therefore,
02:44:56 actually take take place. So therefore, I was skeptical that they could get anybody out. They never managed to get any more than 10 or 12 people on any single events they ever took that ever took part. I was skeptical that they
02:45:08 took part. I was skeptical that they could get any community groups in the Brick Lane area involved. The National Hang on a second. the National Front and the BNP had been removed on a number of occasions
02:45:19 removed on a number of occasions at the top of Brick Lane. Okay. So this part long before I was even in London, many occasions the National Front and the BNP
02:45:30 occasions the National Front and the BNP had been removed from the top of the thing. The problem was not their removal. There was plenty of anti-fascist forces to remove them. Okay, plenty. the I the the the the
02:45:41 Okay, plenty. the I the the the the problem was that they would return the following week bigger and stronger. So the the situation was I wanted to know if we mobilized people in sufficient
02:45:52 if we mobilized people in sufficient numbers was this likely to give the death nail to those organizations. Now what you have to understand is because of the activities of anti-fascist action
02:46:03 of the activities of anti-fascist action okay and because of the activities of red action which is why I I was actively involved with them okay the fascists had abandoned straight politics the fascists
02:46:15 abandoned straight politics the fascists in East London had said that anti-fascist action could not mobilize enough people to march through the Bethnel green area because they had large numbers of people that would come
02:46:26 large numbers of people that would come out and attack that demonstration ation. The active work that we did meant we made a 4,000 strong march through Bethl Green and not a single person came out and opposed that. I wanted to know,
02:46:39 and opposed that. I wanted to know, right? I wanted to know if we went to that event that it would finish them off. That's why I was the thing. I didn't want people to go down there with the possibility and I didn't want the police to know
02:46:50 and I didn't want the police to know that. I want to know that we would have enough numbers to take over that situation and that in the following weeks we would mobilize the same numbers of people that it wouldn't be a oneoff
02:47:02 of people that it wouldn't be a oneoff event. Okay. And that's what that was my conscious but I was conscious that the names of some of these people and the organizations would involve hang this is important. The names of the organizations of the people were
02:47:14 organizations of the people were actually going to be able to do that and some of the people listed on those things are simply fantasists. Mr. Metaf, is your evidence essentially that what we know about the BMP um uh uh
02:47:28 that what we know about the BMP um uh uh stand on Brick Lane and we've seen some evidence about that earlier on in this phase of the inquiry. It was part of a longer running campaign, anti-fascist campaign.
02:47:38 campaign. It it it had been the desire, right? Even even in the 70s when the ENL for example mobilized at carnivals 100,000
02:47:50 example mobilized at carnivals 100,000 people the fascists were still doing stuff at Brick Lane. It was a serious point of contention as to when the fascists on this particular day when they were hosting the carnival, the carnival organizers at the nail, the
02:48:03 carnival organizers at the nail, the typical leadership of the anti-Nazi league refused refused to tell the demonstration, the people there, 100,000 people cuz what was wanted was to get the whole 100,000 people to go to Tower
02:48:15 the whole 100,000 people to go to Tower Hammets that day and make sure that event was finished. That was the plan. Would this be an example knowing what we know about Mark Jenner's targeting strategy,
02:48:27 strategy, would these be the sort of examples where public disorder could be anticipated? Of course, public disorder the the intention was that there'd be more of us than them.
02:48:38 than them. And if public disorder was to take place, then we wanted to make sure that we were strong enough in order to hold hold that. BS. And in terms of when you're saying hold the base, are you
02:48:49 you're saying hold the base, are you talking about aggressively uh uh confronting people? Was it more defensive? No, there'd be more of us than them. There'd be more of us than them that they would be assured that if they
02:49:01 they would be assured that if they decided to cause any bother with us that we could look after ourselves and we would keep the peers. The issue of fascism is quite straightforward. It's quite straightforward. There's no compromises in that situation. Fascists,
02:49:13 compromises in that situation. Fascists, especially in working-class communities, need to show that they're hard. They need to demonstrate that they can show that they're harder than us. Okay? And if you break that down, that breaks that
02:49:24 if you break that down, that breaks that breaks that situation. By 1993 or 1994, as a result of anti-fascist action, in particular, taking their spots when they announced they were having an event, we would get there. And they couldn't get
02:49:35 would get there. And they couldn't get those events back. They could not get those events back. We were the persons in control of that space. There's no question about it's there's no difference to what what happened on the
02:49:46 difference to what what happened on the fields of of of across Europe in the 1930s 19 in the 1940s where some members of the British British armed forces were anti-fascists. Can I ask you about Welling? We can take
02:49:58 Can I ask you about Welling? We can take that down off the screen. Were Were you at Welling on the 16th of October 93? I was at Welling on the 16th of October. Um there's a suggestion of
02:50:09 Um there's a suggestion of fantasy by the organizers fantasy. There's a suggestion in uh one of the reports that you were expecting seasoned fighters from Holland and Germany to attend the uh what was deemed an
02:50:20 attend the uh what was deemed an anti-BMP demonstration at Welling. What do you say about that? Were you expecting people from other countries to attend?
02:50:29 attend? I went on the event with me drivers. I played absolutely I never went anywhere near any events. I never had anything to do. I never had anything to do with the
02:50:40 do. I never had anything to do with the Apha delic people in Afa basically who I know on that that potato didn't go on it. I felt the whole thing was a fantasy to be frank. People were attacking metal gates and the rest of the stuff. What
02:50:51 gates and the rest of the stuff. What the police did to them was an absolute disgrace. But it was a showcase. It was a showcase event between organizations who had no real history of anti-fascism. The ENL has had no history of actual
02:51:03 The ENL has had no history of actual anti-fascism except going back to the late 70s and early 80s. They invented their history. They continue to invent the history [clears throat] and they continue to confuse working-class youth
02:51:14 continue to confuse working-class youth today. So I had nothing to do with that and I felt the whole event and the decision that was taken in that respect was was was nothing short of a fantasy.
02:51:25 was was was nothing short of a fantasy. But I had absolutely no involvement in the thing. The only informment I had and I think it's in my case notes is the woman I was living with at the time went to the front of that demonstration and
02:51:37 to the front of that demonstration and participated what happened. I think that woman was supplying before this happened information on me to the Metropolitan Police. The letter which she wrote when she left my house is almost exactly a
02:51:48 she left my house is almost exactly a replica of the letters that the women received when there when the things she's definitely not an undercover police officer but I do think that she was supplying information on me. I chucked her out of my house cuz she was
02:52:00 chucked her out of my house cuz she was taking ecstasy. C can um can I ask you just on that particular point about seasoned fighters coming from abroad? Do do you have no I've absolutely I have no knowledge
02:52:11 no I've absolutely I have no knowledge of of that in terms of the situation and I had there was no way the large numbers that of of that they were going to get and fair play to them in terms terms of the situation. I had no doubt that the
02:52:23 the situation. I had no doubt that the the fascists were not going to mobilize. The fascists can at that point could mobilize small numbers of people in terms of the situation. And to be honest with you, they were in terms of a
02:52:34 with you, they were in terms of a physical sense, they were broken politically organizations. They were
03:04:24 Um so uh my point about asking you about that distancing is by the time Mark uh uh Jenner is attending at the uh Colin
03:04:35 uh Jenner is attending at the uh Colin Roach Center in 95, you are not so opposed to AFA or even Red Action at that point. Um,
03:04:46 Red Action at that point. Um, I might as well say the leadership hated me and the feelings my feelings weren't weren't as strong in toward towards that because I was appreciative very appreciative of it was also the period
03:04:58 appreciative of it was also the period when I was in that I was getting moved on from the trade units. But I was very appreciative of their support and I'd gone drinking with with some of the lads and I'm still I still know one or two of
03:05:09 and I'm still I still know one or two of the people. I've never had any grief of people in the organization but politically we we strongly disagreed amongst some of the disagreement I felt that uh I felt antascist action should
03:05:21 that uh I felt antascist action should do I felt that the issue that would be of importance to anti-fascists in the future would be about refugees and asylum seekers and deportation. I was wrong by 15 years but I was I suppose I
03:05:33 wrong by 15 years but I was I suppose I was right in the longer run and I felt that they weren't prepared to engage in that sort in in that in that situation that was that was my disagreement but I also felt that the work we were
03:05:44 also felt that the work we were conducting in Hackne was important work and I felt that that was that was the situ but I I'm not going to I'm definitely not going to I'm I'm I'm proud of the activities that the people
03:05:56 proud of the activities that the people in anti-fascist action engaged And you know I'm I'm you know some of them I've found to be incredible characters. um a report of October 95.
03:06:10 um a report of October 95. But Mark Jenner had nothing to do he doesn't this is just this is an invention after the ah that's what I think anyway. We we'll come to some of the reports in particular and you can and you can comment on those. But in terms of a report in October 95,
03:06:23 terms of a report in October 95, um it states that attempts to establish an anti-fascist uni unity group was unsuccessful. Um although each group, including the
03:06:34 Um although each group, including the CRC, could turn out small numbers of capable street fighters, but far too few to even contemplate serious AF activity.
03:06:45 to even contemplate serious AF activity. That's correct. I don't need to show that um sir, but for the record, it's in the CRC bundle behind tab B54. It's MPS 0245537,
03:06:58 a report of the 4th of October 95. Um this suggestion that you I can't see this on here by the way. Sorry,
03:07:06 Sorry, I can't see this on No, no, I'm not going to show it because I'm going to move on through a few reports now. But um in terms of the the suggestion that you could turn out a few capable street fighters,
03:07:19 capable street fighters, is that an accurate way to describe the people that uh uh were part of the anti-fascist movement through CRC? Because does that suggest that they are
03:07:32 Because does that suggest that they are street fighters out looking for a fight or are we talking stewarding defensive? How would you describe them? Well, for one, uh the situation uh
03:07:44 uh is that the same people were uh the people who went out leafton, they went out talking to people, they went out with a knowledge of
03:07:56 with a knowledge of anti-fascism, they could speak to people on the street. So if we went somewhere where if people were asking, what are you doing here? we would be in a position to say
03:08:08 here? we would be in a position to say we're anti-fascists uh and and there's these sorts of groups. So we could call on the on so it isn't just about being street fighters in in terms of that it that that that
03:08:21 in in terms of that it that that that denigrates the overall situation that you're engaged engaged in. Um and that's important to say. Uh in terms of the situation, I can't remember any events
03:08:33 situation, I can't remember any events that were actually talking about apart from one in which Mark Jenner uh was was present. Uh but yeah, there were people there there's about half half a dozen of
03:08:44 there there's about half half a dozen of us. Yeah.
03:08:45 us. Yeah. The one that Mark Jenner was present in, I think. Do you address that in your witness in relation to a pub? Of course I do. Yeah. Um October 95 then
03:08:56 Of course I do. Yeah. Um October 95 then that's when we have the launch of resistance. Yeah.
03:08:59 Yeah. Um that was on the 28th of October 95. Yes.
03:09:03 Yes. The reference and I'm not going to bring it up is in the metaf bundle behind tab B44
03:09:09 B44 MPS 0245625 just for the record. Can you explain very briefly? I can't got it in front of me. What? I'm not going to bring it up, but
03:09:20 What? I'm not going to bring it up, but just just from from your recollection, what resistance, how was that different to
03:09:25 to the CRC or or what what was it? Was it an umbrella type of organization with a a political um
03:09:33 um Well, what what had happened? What had happened is we'd had communication from uh people uh in many different parts of the southeast
03:09:45 the southeast uh particularly uh from the Bren [laughter] area. Okay. And they'd asked uh could they affiliate to the center
03:09:56 uh could they affiliate to the center and they wanted to uh establish similar centers in their locations. Graves End was another one that I recall. So we had
03:10:08 was another one that I recall. So we had potentially another three to four centers that we thought we might be in a position to open and they came with an an a like what what is you know what
03:10:24 an a like what what is you know what program and what policies do you have? uh which is why we thought day in the IWC a thing was good because they had have a program they had have policies
03:10:35 have a program they had have policies and they had some support themselves in Oxford and so that that actually the demand came initially from outside of of the of the group.
03:10:46 of of the of the group. So resistance was a way of coordinating those three uh different centers. There was more. There was there was there was more than three or four. We but we had some like like really silly ones like I
03:10:58 some like like really silly ones like I think I think one of them was from the Highlands of Scotland and much as I love the Highlands and Scotland, I didn't think we were going to likely to be able to offer them much in the way of support from from from London. Can [laughter]
03:11:10 from from from London. Can [laughter] can I bring up a document then in the metar bundle behind tab 48 which is MPS0245790
03:11:22 and this is a a meeting on the 14th of December 95 between CRC and AFA.
03:11:33 and AFA. Again I've never seen this document before.
03:11:36 before. Okay. This is uh uh one of Mark Metaf's well it's a special branch report fed into by Mark u sorry Mark Jenner and paragraph three
03:11:52 recognizes that I wasn't intimidated out of red action in that respect no but it recognizes that there were some past uh uh I wasn't I wasn't intimidated out of red
03:12:04 I wasn't I wasn't intimidated out of red action I left of on free will. I disagreed politically on that sort of situations. People could get very angry and agitated. I know that people in
03:12:16 and agitated. I know that people in Africa and other stuff and other things then had uh physical altercations that uh wasn't the case uh with myself and uh
03:12:27 uh wasn't the case uh with myself and uh so the last sentence there says that individual members of the CRC would be welcome to join AFA in their own right and then paragraph five please
03:12:41 we can see that a vote was taken and with with the exception of three people, everyone was in favor of the CRC affiliating to the East London branch of AFA. Two CRC delegates were nominated to
03:12:54 AFA. Two CRC delegates were nominated to attend the next Lond East London AFA meeting, namely Privacy, otherwise known as Privacy, who is already well known to AFA and Mark Cassidy. So Mark Cassidy
03:13:08 AFA and Mark Cassidy. So Mark Cassidy being uh the undercover officer, he was one of the delegates to that next meeting of AFA. Do you do you recall that?
03:13:16 that? Yeah.
03:13:16 Yeah. Okay.
03:13:18 Okay. Um how many were present at that meeting? Do you know? We've got if we go on to the next page. I mean if it was a CRC meeting, I think we've got their minutes, haven't you? Some of them have got them. We tended to have around uh 10 to 15 people came came
03:13:31 have around uh 10 to 15 people came came to the meeting. We had a much larger millure of people. uh it wouldn't be the same 10 or 15 people uh and they would be uh supportive of um of of that that
03:13:47 be uh supportive of um of of that that situation. So um the the list of people here that we can see on page two isn't necessarily all of the people. These are just the ones that
03:13:56 ones that I I the meeting took place a meeting took place in this there was only eight eight or nine people at the meeting. Well,
03:14:05 Well, it's
03:14:06 it's Yeah,
03:14:06 Yeah, we we No, that's not a CRC meeting. We didn't we never had nine or 10 people. We always had more than that. But it was I mean the the room we had could get about tw the the room at Clarence Road.
03:14:20 about tw the the room at Clarence Road. We could comfortably get 20 people in and we would have people who would come and speak during those meetings. Would this be a sort of meeting where the vote of Mark Cassidy could swing the vote one
03:14:32 of Mark Cassidy could swing the vote one way or the other? Of of course. Of course. I mean, you know, the people who are anti-fascists would would ultimately it's a it's a merely a political it's a political and
03:14:45 merely a political it's a political and a physical uh struggle around fascism would be would be respectful of somebody who could who would be big enough and strong enough that he could stand up if
03:14:56 strong enough that he could stand up if being attacked [clears throat] naturally. How how much influence did Mark Jenner have in terms of voting one way or the other um for CRC to affiliate
03:15:07 way or the other um for CRC to affiliate itself with AFA or ELFA? He would have he would have some influence and on anti-fascism he would have a a significant uh influence
03:15:20 have a a significant uh influence because as I said he could he he could be assured that he's he's a as he demonstrated on on occasions he's a big strong lad and given that he was nominated to be
03:15:33 and given that he was nominated to be the CRC delegate to the next AFA meeting he'd have a bit of sway as to the activities of C see in that would he? Yes of of course he would and he he
03:15:44 Yes of of course he would and he he would been the person who would have brought back the uh the the situation and in
03:15:51 and in he would have brought back the the discussion. Yes. As as was normal on any we would have lots of discussions like like this and we would have uh
03:16:02 like this and we would have uh discussions where anybody who wanted us to affiliate would be expected to come up and uh put their political position and it would it would be it would be
03:16:13 and it would it would be it would be discussed
03:16:14 discussed and and in your witness statement paragraph 2.35 you say that Mark Jenner was the one who was often pushing that agenda. Yeah, he was the anti-fascist.
03:16:25 agenda. Yeah, he was the anti-fascist. He was
03:16:26 He was uh agenda. Is that your recollection? That's true. Of course. Yeah. And is that true across the board? Not just at one or two meetings, but generally was that his interest?
03:16:38 generally was that his interest? No. No. That that that wasn't his only interest. um he would uh uh it might be something he brought up in the meetings, but for example, he would pick up and
03:16:49 but for example, he would pick up and take home uh Malcolm Kennedy uh who as we know would uh was done for the for manslaughter of of of somebody who we camped with. He was interested enough to
03:17:00 camped with. He was interested enough to try and speak to Malcolm Kennedy. He was interested in different different issues,
03:17:06 issues, okay,
03:17:06 okay, things. No, no, it would be wrong to say that's the only issue. If that was the only thing he was actually bothered with, then he wouldn't he wouldn't have had to have he wouldn't have got the time of day. Nobody who came in with a
03:17:18 time of day. Nobody who came in with a single issue and who wasn't prepared also the pri the the if you became uh you could become a CRC member and you could pay a subscription but there was a
03:17:29 could pay a subscription but there was a responsibility which came with that which is why ultimately it also led on to a degree set of uh policies that people were expected to people to be involved you expected we didn't want
03:17:41 involved you expected we didn't want people we didn't want I've got an eye on the time and I think we might break for lunch Okay, we'll um start again at 2. Thank you. Okay, thank you.