Mark Metaf continues his evidence about the Colin Roach Center, anti-fascist activism, and trade union work. He discusses SDS annual reports characterizing AFA, the Republican Forum, trade union delegations to Kurdistan, and the formation of the IWCA. Metaf explains how Mark Jenner (HN15) positioned himself within the organization and questions the accuracy of SDS reporting about left-wing groups and their supposed connections to Irish Republicanism.
00:23:49 Good afternoon, everybody. Uh, this afternoon's proceedings are being live streamed with a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they've heard in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes has
00:24:02 room, but only after 10 minutes has elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography. Yes, Mr. Henry.
00:24:09 Henry. Uh, Mr. Metaf, moving into 1996 now in terms of anti-fascism. Um, is it fair to say that the context then was that there wasn't much by way
00:24:22 then was that there wasn't much by way of street disorder at all because the BNP had had withdrawn and moved into um uh politics and and ballot box
00:24:33 uh politics and and ballot box activities. Yeah. I mean it's fair to say that in the past there was a large large scale disorder also but there was there was less of it they'd taken a more uh less
00:24:44 less of it they'd taken a more uh less of a physical approach and more of a they had been defeated physically and they had taken a more political approach which has ultimately proved to be much more successful.
00:24:55 more successful. Um,
00:24:57 Um, can I refer you to a document in the metaf bundle behind tab B61 MPS 024693.
00:25:09 It's a report of the 20th of March 1996.
00:25:17 Um, and we can see that this is a public meeting at the Newm branch. Uh uh sorry it's the Newan branch of unison and resistance that you spoke of before
00:25:29 resistance that you spoke of before lunch or the Colin Roach Center. Um and it's looking at uh politicizing if you like the uh uh the approach.
00:25:43 like the uh uh the approach. I'll just give you a moment just to look at it if you can. Is that big enough for you on the screen? Oh, it's on. Okay. Then um paragraph one then please.
00:25:56 The actual title of the meeting was how can we fight fascism at the next general election and beyond. two main speakers, Steve Headedley of the CRC and somebody who's privaced from
00:26:09 the CRC and somebody who's privaced from militant labor.
00:26:18 Was there a sense that there was going to be an intention to stand candidates in the next election?
00:26:34 I don't know to be frank. It says that the it does seem to from that report, but I I I wasn't I don't think I I don't believe I was at that meeting.
00:26:45 believe I was at that meeting. It was something uh that if that was going to be the case, it would have to be on an agreed program between the people that were present. I don't think we were in a position yet to
00:26:56 don't think we were in a position yet to have an agreed program just standing in its own right. So there would have had to have been a canny lot of discussions before we could get to that. We certainly couldn't just stand as as what
00:27:09 certainly couldn't just stand as as what we were. We didn't have sufficient political support to do so and we would actually we couldn't just stand as anti-fascist opposed to one group because that wouldn't be a positive approach. As I'd
00:27:21 wouldn't be a positive approach. As I'd said before, the anti-fascist stuff any street anti-fascism stuff had to be undertaken with the bases that we also had a political message political
00:27:32 had a political message political message to give and that would include events. I mean at these events we would let in younger people who identified themselves as fascists for example to
00:27:43 themselves as fascists for example to try and persuade them that there was a political approach and that the problems that they were facing as young people lack of work they no places to live and
00:27:55 lack of work they no places to live and those things which fuel fascism it's the poverty of people that fuels fascism uh we would we would need we would need to do that.
00:28:04 do that. So this sense that there might be um a a an approach to standing candidates on a broadleft social alliance platform, it would encompass all those issues you're
00:28:16 would encompass all those issues you're talking about. And obviously uh the militant as they were at that time, they had had candidates, they had had elected MPs in essence, Pat Wall in uh Bradford and and
00:28:29 essence, Pat Wall in uh Bradford and and also I've forgotten the name of the lad in Liverpool. My apologies to him. I should really remember that. And they they and some of them later went on of course to stand up to the community
00:28:40 course to stand up to the community charge of pole tax as was so and successfully stand in in that respect and did a a very good job. Uh so the general thing about that sorry the
00:28:52 general thing about that sorry the podcast was before my apologies and and the uh the general approach would be one that people would support but we would be we would be a long way from that on an agreed plat as far as I know unless
00:29:05 an agreed plat as far as I know unless agreed program a platform had already been agreed but I I was but it seems to be an an kind of a nent idea as to maybe this is the next stage. Yeah of of course it was. Yes.
00:29:16 Yeah of of course it was. Yes. So the final paragraph on this report please.
00:29:24 There there were going to be meetings to discuss the issues as you say and also there was going to be um an opportunity to discuss um
00:29:35 to discuss um holding a cable street commemoration on the 20th of October. And is that a commemoration of the cable street opposition to Mosley and the fascist?
00:29:47 opposition to Mosley and the fascist? Of course the the period that was coming up in the October uh would be the uh the [snorts] 50th anniversary of Ke Street. So that would be whether anybody would
00:30:00 So that would be whether anybody would be present if they didn't agree with that.
00:30:04 that. Generally speaking though, this is a report on democratic legitimate political organizing. No any sense of uh uh public order element to this.
00:30:18 uh public order element to this. Well, to be fair, the other events that we held were the same, just a different just a different different Yeah. Um can we have a look at the bottom of the document to see who was in
00:30:30 the document to see who was in attendance?
00:30:35 I think it does show that you were there. It may not have been particularly memorable, but it shows Mark Cassidy was there and obviously he I can't say it wasn't particularly memorable. There's just such a lot of events to be fair.
00:30:46 events to be fair. Yeah. But um we can see Mark Cassidy has noted himself there. So Mark Jenner, it's obviously coming from his intelligence. Was it something that Mark Jenner had to
00:30:58 Was it something that Mark Jenner had to be involved with or could he have excused himself from this kind of meeting? Would he have been expected to have been there as part of Well, he was the delegate. He was our delegate to other organizations on an
00:31:10 delegate to other organizations on an anti-fascist level. So, his attendance would have been we weren't a democratic centralist organization. We couldn't force people to do it. But if they became elected to post in which they
00:31:21 became elected to post in which they were the representative of the organization then yes they've they would be expected to attend and then they'd expect to provide report back so that other members and people could dis could
00:31:34 other members and people could dis could work out whether they wanted to remain involved and if events were being called um then that would be the case and then if there was any literature to be hand handed out and other bits of stuff they
00:31:46 handed out and other bits of stuff they would take responsibility for given the the general usual trade union and labor movement stuff. Can I refer you to MPS 0246
00:32:00 Can I refer you to MPS 0246 264?
00:32:02 264? It's behind tab B117 in the CRC bundle. Oh, sorry. My apologies. Is it coming up on here as well? Brought up for you. Okay. A a report
00:32:13 Brought up for you. Okay. A a report special branch report of the 14th of May 96.
00:32:18 96. Um, and this is in relation to the East London anti-fascist action, um, and their ability to mount effective activities. Um, and it's been limited by
00:32:31 activities. Um, and it's been limited by a shortage of capable street fighters. Um the affiliation and this is with the CRC. So the affiliation on mass of the
00:32:42 CRC. So the affiliation on mass of the Colin Roach Center to EL AFA has boosted the number of willing confrontational activists to about a dozen from EL AFA's previous total of only
00:32:55 from EL AFA's previous total of only five. Does that ring a bell with you that about seven or so activists from CRC
00:33:04 CRC were boosting? We certainly had six or seven people who [clears throat] were capable of looking after themselves. And again, we're talking about street
00:33:15 And again, we're talking about street fighters in the sense that you'd spoken about.
00:33:17 about. Yeah, very much the case. I'm not sure what events there was to take on to be fair, but yeah, we we we were able to defend activities that we participated
00:33:28 defend activities that we participated in.
00:33:30 in. Um, you previously said that it was Mark Jenner that pushed the AFA agenda, the anti-fascist agenda, or at least affiliating with other groups. Um, is is
00:33:42 affiliating with other groups. Um, is is that what's happened here in relation to this report? Has he encouraged people? He was our he was our delegate and he was had he had such he had those
00:33:53 was had he had such he had those responsibilities at the same time people were experienced enough to know that if it was a ridiculous agenda that would then people would have there would have been
00:34:04 would have there would have been opposition opposition to that people had enough experience uh to know that we you know our intention was to be better organized than the
00:34:15 was to be better organized than the opposition. You say in your witness statement that, and it's at paragraph 2.18, that Mark Jenner was also keen to get
00:34:26 that Mark Jenner was also keen to get involved in activities down in Kent. I have no knowledge of that at all. Do do you know whether he attended National Front demonstrations in Dova? Were you aware of that?
00:34:38 Were you aware of that? I'm aware of that he did do so. I he was on the television doing so, so I was aware in that respect. I have absolutely no knowledge and I'm absolutely certain
00:34:49 no knowledge and I'm absolutely certain that nobody from the Colin Road Center attended officially or we couldn't say officially like I said we're not a democratic centralist organization but
00:35:00 democratic centralist organization but he did so not on behalf of the the Colin road center if I personally gone to do I had a stack of mates who lived in that area as a result of doing work which we
00:35:12 area as a result of doing work which we did at the trade union support unit during the uh dispute by the PNC farers. So I would have I the first part of call for me part of call sorry that's not
00:35:25 for me part of call sorry that's not supposed to be a joke but uh the uh would have been uh to speak to speak to them so and I there's no way I was I never went and I don't think any I
00:35:36 never went and I don't think any I didn't know anybody else who went that was okay
00:35:39 was okay can we have up please from the metaf bundle behind tab B66 MPS 024
00:35:47 MPS 024 6345 Five. And this is in relation to an AFA meeting at the Tutton Shive Pub in Islington on the 2nd of June 1996. If we
00:36:00 Islington on the 2nd of June 1996. If we go to the bottom of the document,
00:36:07 it it does list you as one of the people that were there along with Mark Jenner and Steve Hedley. Paragraph one of the document
00:36:20 says that this is a discussion discussions had at the pub um regarding AFA's role in the independent working class associ association you see that
00:36:33 you see that I yeah I can't say yeah do you recall this meeting at all uh I don't partic I don't particularly I have to see after after a while you got to so many meetings It's difficult to
00:36:45 to so many meetings It's difficult to rec [laughter] record all of them, you know, just like bit of a blur some bit of a blur some of and it's not obviously you can't overcome it, but it's not helped by the fact everybody's name is
00:36:58 helped by the fact everybody's name is blanked out really. You you remember people rather than actually being in a room which you've been in a dozen times. Basically, you you should have a cipher list on the desk in front of you. You know, does it's it's so complex. I
00:37:10 You know, does it's it's so complex. I I'll go with what I've got here. Is it enough [laughter] if if it assists? The people called Harold and Noah um are people that are significant in AF.
00:37:22 significant in AF. Yeah, I I know the I know that I know they might to say I know the lads. Yes, I know them. Um what's of interest though in this document is the source comment if we can bring that up at the end of the report.
00:37:35 [snorts] [clears throat]
00:37:40 The over and this is obviously a comment by Mr. Jenner. [clears throat] The overall impression given by this meeting was that AFA is an integral part of the IW.CA with its own emphasis on
00:37:54 of the IW.CA with its own emphasis on white workingclass males who enjoy violence.
00:37:58 violence. Now, we heard from Mr. Hedley yesterday who rejected that description. Do you have anything to say about the way that it's been described? Our description of this is that by this point anti-fascist
00:38:10 this is that by this point anti-fascist action really didn't have sufficient people to be proclaiming itself as an IWCA Ptorian god
00:38:22 and by that do you mean that the people there were not they had lost any real respect that they had with large numbers of people because of some of their
00:38:35 of people because of some of their behavior and that this was a this was a they didn't have the people and uh people no longer trusted them
00:38:47 people no longer trusted them and ultimately it it's that which led to their ultimate demise.
00:38:57 Is is what this comment um is setting out a description of the people that were in attendance at the meeting as white working-class males who enjoy violence? Would you is that how you read
00:39:09 violence? Would you is that how you read this and would you categorize yourself as that?
00:39:12 as that? Well, if I enjoyed violence, right, there's no way I would be involved in anti-fascist activities. The truth of the matter is that plenty of my mates who were know exceptionally well even
00:39:25 who were know exceptionally well even now uh enjoyed football violence and I completely rejected any of any of that sort of stuff. So even on that is
00:39:37 that sort of stuff. So even on that is that that's a nonsense side of mine who went around the country enjoying violence. I stopped going on the on the buses with the lads who enjoyed such violence and I went
00:39:49 who enjoyed such violence and I went with other people and I've done so well or I attended 12,300 Sun underweight games. I've been to thousands of other football matches. I've been to Celtic Rangers games. I've
00:40:02 I've been to Celtic Rangers games. I've been in most of the local derbies that have taken place. I watched England play away in the 80s. to stop gunning uh because of the violence that was associated with watching England
00:40:13 associated with watching England particularly after 1990 and the stuff that happened. I went to I went uh with England fans to in 1990 to so you reject it in relation to you personally. What about that as a description? Speak about the other people. You'd have
00:40:24 Speak about the other people. You'd have you'd have to have to ask them. Basically people were very very conscious of the fact that if they were involved in violence there would be a very strong there would be good possibilities they would be arrested and
00:40:36 possibilities they would be arrested and sent to prison. some people were so in that respect I don't know I think people uh were wanted to oppose fascism as best they could do and they were prepared to
00:40:48 they could do and they were prepared to do that mainly politically because we had a magazine we had a leaflets we had our own methods of publicity in terms terms of the situation but the drive and determination was to
00:41:00 but the drive and determination was to show that fascism were not bigger and harder than us because that's important in working-class communities if If you come into working-class communities to be hard is something which is uh very
00:41:11 be hard is something which is uh very much respected and if and if you are only able to stick up for yourself then basically as was as the case with fascism and anti-fascism is that the fascism grows that's that's whether it's
00:41:25 fascism grows that's that's whether it's on the battlefields of of Western Europe or any any any other situations as I said not all British troops went to fight fascism but I do know people
00:41:37 fight fascism but I do know people For example, I had people in uh East London in in Hackne who had done so and and and and gave me and told me about those experiences and had an
00:41:49 those experiences and had an understanding of a great strong respect uh for those people. Thank you. So I re I reject that situation. The other people you'd have to you'd have to
00:42:01 other people you'd have to you'd have to ask them. I don't know. I do know to be honest. I'd say okay that yeah we there's another report that I don't need to display but it's from the 3rd of
00:42:12 need to display but it's from the 3rd of October 1996 and it appears from that report that the CRC formally withdrew sponsorship sponsorship of the IWCA um at that time. So um it says the
00:42:25 um at that time. So um it says the upshot of the meeting is that the CRC has now formally withdrawn sponsorship. It's effectively disaffiliation. Do you recall that? To be honest, I'm I'm I'm quite surprised about that.
00:42:37 surprised about that. I can't I can't remember that. Okay.
00:42:40 Okay. Do you want to see the report itself or you happy to take it from me? That's that's what it says. October 96. It's the day before I haven't got
00:42:52 It's the day before I haven't got anything to say. I kind of I kind of remember it and I'm I'm surprised that we were true. Sorry.
00:42:59 Sorry. That's it. Do you want to see the report? have a look and if I know I'm fine if I can't remember I can't remember um
00:43:09 um a further report is the annual report of the SDS 96 to 97 it's at MPS0527564
00:43:27 so the SDS each year produced an annual report setting out uh its achievements during the the year. If we can go to page 15, please,
00:43:39 If we can go to page 15, please, paragraph 9.2,
00:43:45 and I'll give you a moment just to have a look at that paragraph.
00:44:16 Yes. Do you think that that's a reflective of what was actually going on on the ground? So that the the Londonbased resistance group
00:44:27 resistance group provided valuable intelligence on potentially violent confrontation between Hackley Council workers and their employers.
00:44:37 I'm sorry, but that's just out and out ridiculous.
00:44:43 But there's not the whole thing is
00:44:48 so this a violent confrontation that Hackne Council workers, sorry, just looking at that would go fighting with their employers. Well, they wouldn't be their employers for very long, would
00:44:59 their employers for very long, would they? I mean, it's just, you know, you [clears throat] kind of gone into work and start attacking your employer. I mean, wait, that's just
00:45:10 employer. I mean, wait, that's just that's off the wall. Would you accept that the resistance group had strong ties with very violent anti-fascist organizations which
00:45:21 anti-fascist organizations which participate in serious assaults? I wouldn't accept I wouldn't accept that because our participation in like like anything else you can't have
00:45:33 have we can't we didn't have links with red action we had links with anti-fascist action of which admittedly red action was the key a key component but we had
00:45:44 was the key a key component but we had our own politics to take into that and the six or seven of us plus uh also female comrades who came on some of the wider the public events and stuff at our
00:45:55 wider the public events and stuff at our own politics and they those politics wouldn't be changed by being on events. We went to events to make sure that there was more of us and
00:46:07 make sure that there was more of us and that if it got difficult that we could look after ourselves. That was that was the perspective which we had and to get new people to go on such events because obviously if the fascists turn up with
00:46:20 obviously if the fascists turn up with 30 or 40 and we turn up and this is massive exagger but if we turn up with three or 400 then the event is dead isn't it? That's the end of that event. We can we've got it. We have the space.
00:46:33 We can we've got it. We have the space. We can show to younger [clears throat] impressionable youth that these people are not the sort of superhuman strength that they are can run the left off the
00:46:45 that they are can run the left off the streets and we can demonst we can demonstrate that that's the situation and we were successful in that in in in that respect especially in the period when they
00:46:57 especially in the period when they themselves weren't seeking even to gain conf gain confrontation But let let me see. I've seen some silly things, but that bit on there, Hackne Council
00:47:09 that bit on there, Hackne Council workers and their employers. I've never seen any Hackne Council workers want to fight with their employers. Never. And that that that is that is just
00:47:20 that that that is that is just absolutely uh ridiculous that that that comment that Hackne Council workers are dragged into some nonsense like that and that
00:47:31 into some nonsense like that and that they're after having a scrap with their employers is it's a disgrace that anybody involved with any sections of the state should be suggesting that acne
00:47:43 the state should be suggesting that acne council workers wanted to do so. as an absolute out and out disgrace. They should be apologized to. What about this bit about twothirds of
00:47:54 What about this bit about twothirds of the way down? SDS coverage of the IWCA and its component parts continues to provide good preemptive intelligence about anti-fascist activity and this
00:48:06 about anti-fascist activity and this being particularly useful in the run-up to the general election. So given the general election coming up in 1997, was there a an anticipation that there was going to be much uh public disorder
00:48:19 was going to be much uh public disorder or anti-fascist activity at that time? There wasn't. Uh Mark Janna wrote in the uh uh the magazine which were produced
00:48:30 uh uh the magazine which were produced uh and there are other people who wrote in the magazine out the political approach of the Colin Roach Center. Like I said, we weren't a democratic centralist organization. People were not under instructions. They were not and
00:48:41 under instructions. They were not and things, but there was a general understanding of what that situation is. And there were female comrades who came on events in 1997. And the only event
00:48:52 on events in 1997. And the only event which took place in Hackne in particular involved female and male colleagues, friends going and taking a spot and handing handing out leoots. I'm not
00:49:03 handing handing out leoots. I'm not aware of any single event that needed to have this sort of stuff uh suggested or put into thing.
00:49:15 put into thing. It's nonsense. Is is it your evidence then that this paragraph in the annual report for SDS is not just exaggeration. It's false. Is it?
00:49:25 it? It's it's totally false. But particularly the bit as I said I want Ghana about the council worker stuff is is false. The fascists had become bright enough clear enough in some of their
00:49:37 enough clear enough in some of their political objectives and what the brighter ones understood that they were starting to get a resonance amongst the working classes. The trade union and labor movement was falling uh in in part
00:49:49 labor movement was falling uh in in part into collapse. Other parts of it was desperate for a labor government. uh our magazine warned them of what the Labor government would would mean which was the taking over of the public services
00:50:00 the taking over of the public services by private companies particularly across the national health service and our analysis in the magazine proved to be exceptionally correct and our approach
00:50:11 exceptionally correct and our approach at the time was to take those uh ideas through the magazine I think we we we certainly printed 500 we might have printed a thousand by which time we'd also put out uh uh stuff about uh the
00:50:25 also put out uh uh stuff about uh the ENL uh at the time. Uh so we were selling magazines, we were going to meetings, we were talking talking to people that was our merger of political things and we had sufficient people who
00:50:39 things and we had sufficient people who were connected to the center that could do that in all sections of the community, black and white, male, female, lesbian and gay. We had sufficient connections because of the
00:50:50 sufficient connections because of the organizations that had respect for the common road center and the pe and the the the people in it. It was seen as an organization among some sections of the
00:51:01 organization among some sections of the community which people knew was on their side would support them if we could and uh
00:51:09 uh in my own case you know I don't know if this happened to other people but I could go into calfs for the work that we did and people would like the people who ran the calfs would say like do you want your dinner and all them sorts of things
00:51:21 your dinner and all them sorts of things so we had the support we had massive support amongst the Turkish and Kurdish community because of the the work that that we that we had done. What we didn't have is a political understanding of
00:51:33 have is a political understanding of that support and how we might actually be able to to develop it, which is why we in part set up resistance that we as as opposed to a political party. Yeah. Yeah. That's why it was a the term
00:51:45 Yeah. Yeah. That's why it was a the term is a general is a general thrust because at the time you know there were in the center there were people who might identify themselves as socialist and there would there would be anarchists
00:51:56 there would there would be anarchists and despite our differences and our our disagreements sometimes viferous differences we all knew we were on the same we're on the same side and that's the basis of anti-fascism
00:52:08 the basis of anti-fascism that that and that that that's what the situation and we had lots of faith female. We had lots of female females who were involved with the thing who were working in schools. Uh yeah, and we
00:52:21 were working in schools. Uh yeah, and we had good connections. We had uh uh black a particularly strong black female who was involved who let me say was the most harassed in terms of coming to our
00:52:33 harassed in terms of coming to our meetings. Anytime we had a meeting that took place, she was uh when she came out of her door, she was accompanied by uh a
00:52:44 of her door, she was accompanied by uh a police car who followed her to the meeting. That's what happened to her. She was the black woman who came to the center and every meeting that we had, they knew when we had the meetings, they
00:52:55 they knew when we had the meetings, they would they would follow her in term in terms of the meeting. She was campaigning for her husband who had been arrested. uh and and and that happened that didn't happen to the uh white
00:53:06 that didn't happen to the uh white female comrades. So just in the same way as I get stopped at the football that you're saying that's a racial discrimination. There's no doubt it was an intent to intimidate a West Indian woman from coming from coming to the come at the
00:53:18 coming from coming to the come at the meetings. A very nice strong woman. Before we move on from the anti-fascist topic, I know it's very difficult, as you say, to separate out uh Republican
00:53:29 you say, to separate out uh Republican and and the anti-fascism uh topics, but there's just one last report I'd like to refer you to which comes from 2002. Um it's be in metav's bundle B102
00:53:45 Um it's be in metav's bundle B102 and it's MPS 0010023.
00:53:51 Um, this is a report from HM104, Carlos Saraki, who was known as Carlo Neri. Do you don't recognize that name or that
00:54:02 you don't recognize that name or that officer?
00:54:05 officer? Um, I'll give you a moment just to to to look at this, but essentially I think this is after you've moved back home up north. I mean what did
00:54:17 up north. I mean what did my mom was looking after me dad uh my sister's married Scott Burns uh and
00:54:28 and I want to g back to the northeast although we didn't gone back to uh Peter Lee uh or isn't we went moved to Sunland and uh I went through twice a week to
00:54:41 and uh I went through twice a week to pick them up take them So in terms of before he died I I I mean I I the date that they're talking about is a Saturday I was free on that particular Saturday because we played
00:54:52 particular Saturday because we played Burough on the Tuesday. Uh were you still nowhere did I promise I was the secretary by then of southern fans against racism in the northeast and we did leaflets we supported the campaign
00:55:05 did leaflets we supported the campaign by refugees when Pman was killed at the top of my street by a racist who got 18 years uh but I have no knowledge at all and to be fair uh I mean obviously Steve
00:55:17 and to be fair uh I mean obviously Steve was say uh things but me and Steve had a a big fallout because I felt that We we organized independent action of the RMT in 1998.
00:55:28 in 1998. We brought out about 80 80 lads and stay and Steve took the commitment of uh the grand old juke of York uh as as I knew him that they would do well by him and
00:55:41 him that they would do well by him and then he didn't. So I I wasn't Steve Edley's bringing me up at that particular period of time would not have been something that I would have I I would have took him serious as a serious
00:55:52 would have took him serious as a serious political activist and a very good trade union organizer but I I wouldn't have been responding to to that. No. Were you still an active member of AFA in London at the time? I had been an active member of AFA in
00:56:04 I had been an active member of AFA in London in itself since 1992.
00:56:09 I'd been a I'd been an active member of the Colin Roach Center who were affiliated to AFA, but I was not an active member of action since 1992. So, it's 10 years out of date. So, it shows
00:56:21 it's 10 years out of date. So, it shows how limited information they actually had
00:56:24 had on on my political activities. I mean, if they
00:56:27 if they they could have employed three or four workers to find out all the political activities I was involved with. So, but it still wouldn't it still wouldn't if they couldn't even know that. Was there any sense of
00:56:38 Was there any sense of enough would it quality?
00:56:42 quality? No.
00:56:43 No. Is there any sense of uh truth in you looking to go over to Liverpool and taking with you six uh stewards for a march in Liverpool at that time?
00:56:58 Honestly, we struggled when we were leaving at the estates which were difficult in Sunland. We had to work hard to get stewards because there was opposition the BNP become very strong.
00:57:09 opposition the BNP become very strong. The idea that I was suddenly going to be asking six lads on a Saturday. They were all working during the week on sites and the rest them or get mensy involved from the angelic upstarts. Nobody would have
00:57:21 the angelic upstarts. Nobody would have took me seriously. Okay.
00:57:24 Okay. Nobody.
00:57:25 Nobody. So moving on to a slightly different topic then I'd like to ask you about Mark Jenner's level of influence. So, was he part of the editorial board of
00:57:36 was he part of the editorial board of the CRC's bimonthly anti-fascist bulletin?
00:57:41 bulletin? We had a magazine. Did we have a bulletin around anti-fascism if you say so? I can't remember it. I have to say uh the the reference is MPS0245571.
00:57:57 [clears throat]
00:58:06 I mean what you have to remember is I was the elected I said person for the activities and and and there was a lot of activities going on apart from
00:58:18 of activities going on apart from keeping the center open and raising the finances. So there was all sorts of selfindependent things going and on and uh it was it was tricky at times to keep
00:58:30 uh it was it was tricky at times to keep knowledge of that kind of could this be re referring to the RPM? Yeah, it was the magazine but I wasn't the coordinator of the magazine was Mark Jenner.
00:58:41 was Mark Jenner. No, I you would you would have people who would come and and other people would say to people why not do an article on this? So we did an election special and and and we did uh so we'd
00:58:55 special and and and we did uh so we'd have we had big pretty big social events that people were raising funds. Some of the people are well known even even now and they would come and do a music or
00:59:06 and they would come and do a music or some comedy. Uh so the last I mean they could have taken some of these reports they would have made useful comedy to be better. But uh this last sentence then where it says at
00:59:18 this last sentence then where it says at its inception the editorial board of this bulletin will comprise of privacy Mark Cassy and Mark Met. Okay. If it says that could that just be the first edition and
00:59:29 could that just be the first edition and then it was just a matter of who he wasn't involved with the first edition of the magazine. What year are we talking here? 95. Oh the first edition was a
00:59:41 the first edition was a on the front. In the first edition, it was a five p. It was a five page about the work of Hackne Community Defense Association, which by which time had been
00:59:54 which by which time had been incorporated into the Conro Center, but talked about how many people had the general statistics, the general information.
01:00:05 information. I I think I've got it in here to be fair,
01:00:08 fair, but this isn't really ringing any bells for you. is anything significant. I mean it Molly Malones was a regular place and I I think as I mentioned earlier on two of the lads two of my
01:00:21 earlier on two of the lads two of my mates who still go the football they were attacked in a separate place and one of them uh thanks to the work of Hatne Community Defense Association. His case against him he's found not guilty and subsequently.
01:00:36 Can I just ask you for help then in terms of the other positions that we understand Mark Jenner uh filled during the course of his deployment. Um North
01:00:47 the course of his deployment. Um North London organizer of anti-fascist action. Are you able to help us with that at all?
01:00:55 If he was he was okay. Secretary of the Brian Higgins Defense Committee. I'm able to help you with whatever you want on that. What was he? Yes. the secretary of the
01:01:07 What was he? Yes. the secretary of the Yes, he was defense committee. And were you treasurer? Uh
01:01:13 Uh I usually have some responsibility to be fair. Uh yes, I suppose cuz I knew bands and I knew people and I knew uh the
01:01:25 and I knew people and I knew uh the various people in the trade union movement that we could uh get monies off. And as secretary, did Mark Jenner have much influence over that campaign
01:01:36 have much influence over that campaign then?
01:01:37 then? That is
01:01:39 That is no. Uh he didn't have influence over that campaign in in the respect of that because we had serious political activists in the Brian Higgins campaign.
01:01:52 activists in the Brian Higgins campaign. We had people who had taken uh the best strike action which was the Lang's lockout dispute of 1986
01:02:04 lockout dispute of 1986 in which a group of workers defied the anti-rade union laws and won back their jobs. So Mark Jenner was a complete novice in this. He had no strike action
01:02:16 novice in this. He had no strike action experience. He had nothing to bring to the table at all. In terms of being secretary though, would he have had access to people's data?
01:02:25 data? Of course. Of course, he had access to the important persons. And as we know, Brian Higgins, this this booklet, as we know, as we said before, uh proved to be
01:02:36 know, as we said before, uh proved to be part of the uh the stuff that was used to I mean, Brian was already victimized for for his political for his trade union activities. So yes, he would know.
01:02:48 union activities. So yes, he would know. Uh Mark Jenner's also role in the building worker group is when the building worker group supported Johnny Jones. God rest his soul. He's just he's just died recently uh and stuff and and
01:03:01 just died recently uh and stuff and and at the uh
01:03:02 at the uh I'd like to ask you a few more questions about trade union activity. Can I just obviously Mark turned up on the picket lines during the during the dispute to get uh Johnny's job back uh during that
01:03:14 get uh Johnny's job back uh during that period of time. a guy on a motorbike with a a big chin attempted to attack us and Mark prevented that attack and to be fair I'm fairly grateful for him because
01:03:25 fair I'm fairly grateful for him because if he hadn't I think one or two of us might have got very badly injured. Um AFA legal or welfare officer? Did you know whether he held that role or not?
01:03:36 know whether he held that role or not? What was that? Sorry. AFA legal or welfare officer? I I to be to be fair if he held that role it was a role which he had no accomplishments for. So there can't have been a lot of legal work going on.
01:03:47 legal work going on. Member of AFA strategy commission. No idea.
01:03:54 I'd like to move on to another topic now. Republicanism. Yeah. Yeah. Um you make no secret of the fact that you're lifelong Republican. I'm still even a dear member of the uh
01:04:05 I'm still even a dear member of the uh uh Republican Labor Education Forum. I've been a English Republican first and foremost since I was 15 or 16 years of age.
01:04:14 age. And through the CRC, you allowed uh SA to the the Republican uh prisoner support group to use it wasn't just a Republican support group. It was the end the intention was
01:04:26 group. It was the end the intention was that all prisoners should should be released that that my politics is basically you know a united island on a on a vote amongst the whole island
01:04:37 on a on a vote amongst the whole island uh self-determination for Ireland all the prisoners out out of jail and troops out of Ireland. that that's and I would have stayed in the troops out movement if it hadn't been for the event when
01:04:48 if it hadn't been for the event when they they they went home with the police on the on the uh on the Bernardet Malinsk Bernardet Deon. I would have stayed with that. I wrote for the magazine. I've got nothing to hide. I
01:04:59 magazine. I've got nothing to hide. I went to I was the trade union organizer for the troops out movement. I did loads of stuff around Ireland. I I believe that the four nations and I believe Ireland is one nation uh should have
01:05:11 Ireland is one nation uh should have should make a decision on a fed on a federal UK or whatever it should because I've I've believed that what am I 66 now believed that for half a century and we know that in 1995 in the summer
01:05:23 and we know that in 1995 in the summer of 95 there was a CRC trip to Northern Ireland. So Mark Jenner had arrived and joined the CRC in spring or around
01:05:34 and joined the CRC in spring or around February 95 and then in the summer you were going across um on the ferry to Belfast. Is that right? Nothing to do with Mark Jenny making that decision. We had held a public
01:05:47 that decision. We had held a public meeting. The Pat Fenuken Center had written to us merely on the placing issue. So we'd had some correspondence with them for a a short period of time
01:05:58 with them for a a short period of time and then in uh it is about uh October uh they had written to us and said that they were supportive of the peace process uh and uh so was very strongly
01:06:11 process uh and uh so was very strongly uh particularly after 92 was very very strongly in favor of that uh and um would we host a public meeting at the photography particularly aimed at
01:06:23 photography particularly aimed at Turkish and Kurdish people uh what was going on in in in in Kurdistan or certain parts of Kurdistan and uh that Mary Nellis would come to speak and uh
01:06:35 Mary Nellis would come to speak and uh we said we'd be very supportive of them coming to speak. So we'd already done that. We weren't separately seeking to organize a delegation. It was at the
01:06:46 organize a delegation. It was at the request of of uh Mary Nellis uh and uh as I did I think I can't mention his name but my mate uh in Belfast uh whose
01:06:59 name but my mate uh in Belfast uh whose uh brother had been well he'd been shot dead in a plastic bullet on the television. Uh so uh I thought it was a good idea. I thought it would be a very good idea. And and is it right that you traveled
01:07:11 And and is it right that you traveled over using Mark Jenner's van? Yeah, I was very opposed to that. Um,
01:07:18 Um, I said to him, "Your van will be known. It'll be known by the security services known be that." And his behavior, to be fair, looking back on it at that point should have alerted to me the fact that he he wasn't what he was saying. Just as
01:07:30 he he wasn't what he was saying. Just as I deeply regret the whole situation around how we got together get with Allison and all them and didn't work that out. It's uh it's a really big political mistake that with my
01:07:42 political mistake that with my experiences I didn't I didn't do that but there's reasonings behind that but nevertheless I still hold that responsibility. I think Allison came along with you on that trip indeed.
01:07:53 that trip indeed. And she's written about this trip indeed deception the book hasn't she? She has. Did you stay at at Steve Hedley's mother's house? [clears throat] I slept in the front room on the floor
01:08:04 I slept in the front room on the floor unlike
01:08:05 unlike did you get an extra sausage for breakfast or uh to be fair that period of time in my life I was I was I was a vegetarian. So the answer to that question is he
01:08:16 the answer to that question is he probably had mine. Okay. So I can't really see [laughter] that situation. So I was a vegetarian. Um,
01:08:26 Um, is it right then that CRC did not request Mark Jenner's attendance on that trip?
01:08:34 trip? He was he was active in the center. He want he said he wanted to go. He said he would take the fan. I was not in favor of him taking the van. Uh because also
01:08:45 of him taking the van. Uh because also what what would happen is we were we were then going we went down to dub we went down to Dublin and other bits of stuff. I wasn't in favor of that situation because I wanted to go
01:08:57 situation because I wanted to go independently. Personally, I wanted to go that we would get some transport when we were in the north of Ireland to use that and then we would go separately. I didn't really want that that that
01:09:08 didn't really want that that that situation arising because whilst I didn't have any fears whatsoever that the the loyalists were going to follow us and the rest of the stuff, I still didn't I still didn't I still didn't want to do that.
01:09:20 want to do that. Do you recall one morning Mark J getting up exceptionally well. Do you remember him getting up one morning and going up the Shankl Road? He certainly wouldn't have gone up the Shankl Road if I if I if he got me out
01:09:34 Shankl Road if I if I if he got me out of bed to tell him he was going up the Shankle Road. I can assure you he would not have gone up the Shankl road. He would I I would have organized that we would have come home that if he decided he was going to do that. I felt that was
01:09:45 he was going to do that. I felt that was blessing people even though the peace process was on that he would not have done that. I've been up the shankle road before myself when I did some trade union activity. So a long time before
01:09:56 union activity. So a long time before that and was supportive of keeping some premises open actually at that at at that point. But no, we weren't. We weren't.
01:10:06 weren't. If somebody then asked us where we'd come from that I'm I'm not sure that we were in uh in in in I don't think it would have been would have been safe. We're talking about a war.
01:10:17 We're talking about a war. So when did you learn that he had when he got back for that walk when he got back that day when he got back? Yeah. when he got back. Did you see force used against Mark
01:10:29 Did you see force used against Mark Jenner when he was in Derry by the I didn't personally see the moment when he got when he got hit by the I didn't see that. I was I personally uh was
01:10:41 see that. I was I personally uh was towards the rear of of what was happening. Uh but I didn't personally obviously he got hit. I mean he did he got injuries so he certainly didn't do
01:10:52 got injuries so he certainly didn't do them himself. No, but I didn't personally witness him getting hit hit at at at that point. My experience of Mark, as I said before, in situations
01:11:03 Mark, as I said before, in situations surrounding violence and the other thing is that he was he was a he was a he was a brave individual.
01:11:14 Can I refer you to uh Metaf bundle behind tab B38 MPS 024 5510.
01:11:25 5510. Okay. Cheers. This is a report from the 22nd of September 95. Okay. Cheers. So this is not long after that trip to
01:11:37 So this is not long after that trip to Northern Ireland. Um paragraph two please.
01:11:48 talks about the CRC developing its Irish political strategy and with the advent of Cersia and links being made with Derry Shinfane etc. Mark metaf is eager to encourage
01:12:01 etc. Mark metaf is eager to encourage this.
01:12:03 this. We didn't have any links with Doris and Fern. So that report is is is not is not true. We had links we had had links with the Pat Fogen Center. We had we had a uh
01:12:17 the Pat Fogen Center. We had we had a uh correspondence uh with Mary Nellis, but we we were not affiliated to to Tony Shinfrey. before Irish organizations ever came to us and
01:12:30 Irish organizations ever came to us and asked for uh for relationships. No, no, never. Did you in fact develop an Irish
01:12:41 Did you in fact develop an Irish political strategy? I I think we would have liked to uh but I don't think the the politics of the people evolved around the Colin Road
01:12:53 people evolved around the Colin Road Center to be fair made that a particularly easy task. Um, was was there any element to the
01:13:04 Um, was was there any element to the activities of CRC or you personally that could reasonably dis be described as supporting criminal or terrorist activity in the form of supporting
01:13:15 activity in the form of supporting Republican activity? Our political position, my political position has always been clear. The Irish have a right to resist. They have a right under international law
01:13:28 a right under international law that definitions of terrorism should be repackaged. There was a war that was taking place. Are you asking me was I supportive of people going out and committing bombings and the rest of the stuff? The answer to that is no. Uh and
01:13:42 stuff? The answer to that is no. Uh and was I supporting other positions and things?
01:13:48 things? uh
01:13:50 uh there were people who came who were still into wanting to to Republican forums and to continue the war. I was I was pretty hostile to that. Me personally, I felt I felt that that it
01:14:02 personally, I felt I felt that that it was the I could understand why that would be the situation. Ireland's been occupied for 900 years and there's been periods of time when the Irish have decided to take up weapons and to fight
01:14:13 decided to take up weapons and to fight war. I felt that certainly after 1992 I I felt that sorry things after sorry in the 80s I felt that that was a
01:14:24 in the 80s I felt that that was a process which I could understand the things I admit to mine who who I knew came home and told me of the atrocities that the British army were committing which they themselves had witnessed. I have a huge uh huge datab bank of those
01:14:37 have a huge uh huge datab bank of those sorts of situations none of which I would be brave enough to actually publish at this particular period of time. So I knew what was happening in Ireland. I'll refer to it as war till I,
01:14:48 Ireland. I'll refer to it as war till I, you know, as long as I'm I'm alive. I refuse to use the words troubles. But now I wasn't going around supporting that. Uh I'm a socialist after all. So no. And I you know I whilst I understand
01:15:01 no. And I you know I whilst I understand what was happening, I understand the killings and the rest of it and stacks of mates and lads I knew who were in the British army. I felt I felt often very very distressed to hear of their their
01:15:14 very distressed to hear of their their deaths. I felt that was a futile waste of time that they were in the in the British army. It upset me upset me a lot.
01:15:24 lot. Um can I refer you to a document that is about the Republican forum. So it's in the metaf bundle behind tab B45 MPS024
01:15:34 MPS024 56
01:15:35 56 47.
01:15:37 47. And this is a report from the 4th of November 1995.
01:15:44 A meeting of Republican Forum at the London Welsh Center in Grazing Road.
01:15:56 Can you see that enough just to scan over it and read part of that? Do you recall that meeting? I do recall the meeting. I recall that I I
01:16:07 I largely came out of it regretting that I'd gone to the meeting. And uh had you gone to the meeting with Mark, Jenna, and Brian Higgins?
01:16:19 Mark, Jenna, and Brian Higgins? Uh yeah, the the campaign was on Brian and and and he's dead now. Tory Little had called the meeting. I knew I knew Terry very well. Uh and stuff. And
01:16:30 Terry very well. Uh and stuff. And that's they uh were uh involved. And I went, to be fair, I went on because Brian asked me asked me to go, not because of Mark Jenner. I went because
01:16:43 because of Mark Jenner. I went because Brian asked me to go. Paragraph four, please, if you can highlight that. Um,
01:16:52 so two speakers allowed 20 minutes before questions from the floor were taken. Many in the audience expressed disqu about the platform's rejection of the ceasefire.
01:27:54 Does this report ring a bell? Were you intending to go back to Northern Ireland intending to go back? And obviously the the person that referred to is is somebody I've known uh since he he went
01:28:07 somebody I've known uh since he he went to uh T-side Poly in the 80s. His brother, like I said, was shot dead with a plastic bullet that was on television. So, I've known him for I've known him
01:28:18 So, I've known him for I've known him for years. I've known him absolutely absolutely for years. Okay. So, this report is accurate, but um
01:28:28 um keep us informed of the situation with Shinfen in Ireland. That's deliberately phrased. He kept us generally and he wrote he wrote in the uh in the in the magazine. Obviously, nothing happened to
01:28:39 magazine. Obviously, nothing happened to him in terms of the Manchester bombing. He wasn't nothing happened to him in terms ter terms of the the situation, but yeah, I knew I've I've known the lads for a a very very long time. I'm
01:28:53 lads for a a very very long time. I'm not in contact with them uh currently, but I know I could I could find and put it that way. Um the next document metaf bundle tab B91
01:29:04 bundle tab B91 MPS
01:29:06 MPS uh 000000695.
01:29:11 It's a report from the 25th of November 97.
01:29:15 97. It's an intel report by touchy subject. Um you can see that the reports have changed format now that we're into the second half of 97.
01:29:27 second half of 97. um a report that CRC members are involved in a planned attack on David Irwin, a a unionist politician, should he uh return to London. Um is this a
01:29:40 he uh return to London. Um is this a document that you're familiar with? Have you seen this report before? I have not seen that report before. I I don't think so. It's I um
01:29:51 don't think so. It's I um [panting]
01:29:54 I think you refer to it in your Okay.
01:29:57 Okay. Well, I have then if I've referred to my apologies and and the Yes, I have to respond to it. Simply not true. In fact, it's laughable. The whole idea that we were going to
01:30:09 The whole idea that we were going to attack a loyalist politician who has got connections to people who involved in armed groups, the Colon Road Center. I mean, I'm I'm looking at some of the
01:30:20 mean, I'm I'm looking at some of the people who were involved in the Coron Road Center at that time, and I'm I've got nothing personally against them, but to be fair, the idea that we were going to take on a loyalist politician in such
01:30:32 to take on a loyalist politician in such a position is is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen written about myself. So, politically, you're opposed to the the PUP.
01:30:43 the PUP. Is that fair to say? No, no, no, no. We we the the stuff that we put out was had been based for a a number of years on the fact that the
01:30:54 number of years on the fact that the militant tendency had sought to pretend that the progressive unionist party had some forms of links to socialism
01:31:05 forms of links to socialism and had defended outrightly uh pay counselor who had the uh uh the murder that took place
01:31:19 the uh uh the murder that took place uh in which the most deprived of manner on a female uh was somehow a socialist and it was in connection it was largely
01:31:30 connection it was largely in relation to that I think you've exhibited uh leaflets and writing in relation to that instead of having and and that was but we we we we were not in a position right to do we were in
01:31:42 not in a position right to do we were in a position to point out the politics we're not in a position he was an elected representative, okay, of a political organization. The peace process was on the idea that firstly we
01:31:53 process was on the idea that firstly we could actually do anything physically to the leader of the PUP is it's not laughable. It's serious of course, but it is laughable in the bigger sense. And
01:32:04 it is laughable in the bigger sense. And the idea that we would seek to do so except by uh entirely legitimate political reasons by producing a life would handle it out and doing doing that
01:32:16 would handle it out and doing doing that situation as crazy. Of course, we were shocked when he turned up. We we we didn't think he was going he [laughter] was going to be there. I mean, we never thought he was going going to be there, but to be honest with you, if there was
01:32:27 but to be honest with you, if there was 20 of us, he was not intimidated. He had he had a security guy, you know, and and the security guy who was there could have
01:32:39 have any of those that were on that thing, he could have taken any of those people out. He's a proper security guard. We're just like complete noviceses in that respect. So whilst I can look after myself, I'm not a hard individual. The
01:32:52 myself, I'm not a hard individual. The whole thing, the whole way that this is written is uh is it's rubbish to be fair. That's what I feel anyway. Is it right? Do you do you accept there was a a a picket there? Yes. Outside the venue.
01:33:03 Yes. Outside the venue. Yeah, there was. Yeah, we put we produced the leaflet. We had a leaflet. We we we had the thing. We had the discussion. I remember I like we were very shocked when he when he when he when he turned up and uh but
01:33:17 he when he when he turned up and uh but they didn't there's no way they felt intimidated. If they had a smaller meeting, it's because they hadn't got the people that had turned up to attend it. It's a simp it's as simple it's as simple as that. Can we have the whole
01:33:29 simple as that. Can we have the whole document up please?
01:33:34 I mean can I see once again that the politics of around Ireland was something that you know this is these are tiny events in a much bigger much bigger
01:33:45 events in a much bigger much bigger picture of a annual things I appreciate the aim is to show that they prevent public disorder and there wasn't any public disorder. um the suggestion at the very end that
01:33:56 um the suggestion at the very end that the feeling of the IRSP, the CRC and Red Action
01:34:02 Action is that should Irvin ever return to Hol. Well, this is just nonsense and displays the same arrogant disregard for both personal security and political insensitivity, then plans will be made for a physical
01:34:14 then plans will be made for a physical attack. This is the bit in your [clears throat] statement, I think, where you say, "Well, that's just laughable." and is just it's just it's just it's just nonsense
01:34:25 it's just it's just nonsense uh to be fair and it's
01:34:30 and it's it's
01:34:30 it's so there was no threat. I wasn't privy to any discussions afterwards. We didn't it wasn't we didn't have a common front on this but in terms of the the situation we were not in a political alliance with any of
01:34:42 not in a political alliance with any of those organizations. The feeling of the IRSP with the slash CRC suggests that those organizations are of a combined organization. This is an attempt to
01:34:53 organization. This is an attempt to suggest that that was what was happening. There isn't each group and each individual and person had a personal uh and political agenda and
01:35:04 personal uh and political agenda and differences. uh and ours had come out of the as I said over a disagreement at the time around the the the uh the militant in particular uh and
01:35:17 in particular uh and physical attack on him. Well, not a chance.
01:35:21 chance. There was no threat to him should he ever. There was never any there was never any physical threat to David to uh
01:35:31 uh like I said there was never any and them could respond with far greater force than we that our handful of people no chance
01:35:41 no chance could it be that this is some reporting of banter after the event did you what the the idea wasn't the idea that I was speaking to members of the Red
01:35:53 was speaking to members of the Red Action and began drinking afterwards to make a discussion as to what Colin Road Center members the thing. That's nonsense. I'm I'm sorry. That's nonsense.
01:36:03 nonsense. Um,
01:36:05 Um, can we have up then please met bundle B92
01:36:11 B92 40726.
01:36:16 It's a report of the 8th of December 97. now
01:36:23 reports that you're working for Camden Council as a day center worker. For Camden Council, you weren't. No,
01:36:29 No, that that's inaccurate. Were you working as a day center worker? Uh, no. I was I was the uh uh
01:36:40 Uh, no. I was I was the uh uh what was my title? Um
01:36:45 well I was a boss and I was the second and we had a stack of projects taking place. I can't remember my actual title. Was it uh assistant center coordinator
01:36:57 Was it uh assistant center coordinator without responsibility? I could hire people because we needed temporary staff but I wasn't responsible for any of the firing responsibilities. That was my political position. I uh
01:37:10 That was my political position. I uh organized a uh uh a lunchon club. I organized a youth project. I worked in a crush two mornings a week. I produced a
01:37:23 crush two mornings a week. I produced a document uh that was around uh child abuse and child protection which was subly taken up uh nationally uh amongst
01:37:35 subly taken up uh nationally uh amongst a fairly large number of organizations. it became part of policy to give such documents out in a number of councils. Uh I had a a reason for doing that
01:37:46 Uh I had a a reason for doing that because of abuse that had taken place when I was a kid. Um and uh I was very dedicated that job and I really enjoyed it. We managed to get uh the center
01:37:58 it. We managed to get uh the center itself still has uh graffiti artwork that was uh put up uh was that I left there in 2000. It's still up. So it tells you that the quality of the
01:38:09 tells you that the quality of the graffiti and the artwork that was produced was exceptional. Not quite Banksy but except well you know I obviously he had an involvement in terms of the some of the stuff for the other
01:38:20 of the some of the stuff for the other lads and stuff and things like that. Uh so yeah we we it was it was a very good place to work. Uh can I ask you about paragraph two then?
01:38:32 can I ask you about paragraph two then? It says that Mark is of the opinion that the CRC will not be able to satisfy his ambition for influence and in recent months Mark has devoted more of his time
01:38:43 months Mark has devoted more of his time to help launch the Republican forum along with Brian Higgins. I'm sorry this is I'm sorry this is not true. I wasn't involved in helping to
01:38:55 true. I wasn't involved in helping to launch firstly the organization had already been started. So why did it need to be launched? That was what I was uh going to ask you about because we've heard uh of some reports back in 95 that talk about the
01:39:07 reports back in 95 that talk about the Republican forum and now we're in uh the end of 1997 that's talking about you launching the Republican forum. So is can can you confirm that this is
01:39:19 can can you confirm that this is inaccurate in terms of it's completely inaccurate in terms of myition is ambition for influence uh
01:39:31 uh my
01:39:33 my me here and now I've been offered over the years uh posts as full-time trade during officer my
01:39:44 as full-time trade during officer my position was that I didn't want to be appointed as a full-time trade during officer especially for organizations which I was not a worker in and by which
01:39:55 which I was not a worker in and by which time I was working in the community sector and I certainly didn't want to become a full-time trade union officer community sector sorry to interrupt sorry to interrupt
01:40:06 sorry to interrupt sorry to interrupt but this this you're saying that this um ambition for influence is not accurate reporting on you no what I'm trying sorry perhaps explain myself properly. You only when it says
01:40:19 myself properly. You only when it says ambition for influence, my ambition for influence is obviously universal in the sense that I wish to influence people politically. Uh it's not amp in the way that that's
01:40:33 Uh it's not amp in the way that that's put that I wish to somehow gain advantage for myself personally. That's just not that's just not not the case. If I needed to do if I wanted to
01:40:44 case. If I needed to do if I wanted to do that and then I I would have needed to seek out uh positions that would be able to influence that. I'm a working-class socialist with some
01:40:55 working-class socialist with some education
01:40:57 education who is not seeking except in any other way to argue and agitate for socialist politics which is democratic
01:41:09 socialist politics which is democratic and the means and methods by which the traitian movement is organized is not in my view democratic in how it organizes its structures. I'm happy and I've been
01:41:21 its structures. I'm happy and I've been delighted to work for the trade journey movement in various shapes of form or fashion for ages, but I definitely do not want to be responsible for structures which I think need reforming.
01:41:33 structures which I think need reforming. I'm sorry to have cut across you there and thank you for that. Fine. Well, I wasn't intending launching anything on the Republican forum and I certainly in 1998 was not planning to go
01:41:45 certainly in 1998 was not planning to go to Derry for the weekend of the blood. Like I said, I've been 10 or 11 times to Ireland in my lifetime. If it's more, it it certainly wouldn't reach uh uh reach
01:41:59 it certainly wouldn't reach uh uh reach 15 and the Republican Forum, police in Kurdistan. I mean, I list some of the issues that I'm in involved in. So, that final paragraph you're saying
01:42:11 So, that final paragraph you're saying is inaccurate as well. I have no idea of it and I certainly wasn't I certainly wasn't going to the bloody Sunday of March in Derry in 1998. Uh I I
01:42:24 March in Derry in 1998. Uh I I wasn't doing that or the Republican forum. I was very skeptical of the Republican forum because of some of the people who came to it and I didn't feel it was making a great a great deal of
01:42:36 it was making a great a great deal of progress. It seemed to be people who had had whose politics had had long since gone. I was a lot younger than them. I wasn't young, but I was a lot younger
01:42:47 wasn't young, but I was a lot younger than them really. Um, in terms of interrupting you there, I'm I'm only aware that there are some other topics that you want to um give your evidence about, including um uh
01:43:00 your evidence about, including um uh blacklisting and Yeah, I definitely want to do the blacklisting stuff. Yeah, I'm very keen to do that. Yeah, it's the reason, one of the reasons I've come, although I I repeat against, I still think Deb Smith should be given the opportunity to come up and talk
01:43:11 the opportunity to come up and talk about that because he knows far more about it. So, so um in terms of the Republican topic, I've just got a couple of more questions to ask you about that before moving on. Um,
01:43:27 the Republican Forum, we've heard that there is some inaccuracy about you launching that group. Did you become the treasurer of the
01:43:38 Did you become the treasurer of the Republican Forum? No.
01:43:41 No. Um
01:43:44 HN15 Mark Jenner says in his witness statement at paragraph 127 um when referred to a particular document MPS 00001223.
01:43:57 document MPS 00001223. I don't intend to bring it up. Okay. Cheers. But it's a strategy meeting with touchy subject in July 1998. He says, "I do agree with the
01:44:08 He says, "I do agree with the description of Red Action as a terrorist support group. Members of our RA were convicted of terrorist offenses. For example, Liam Hefernan, a member of um
01:44:21 example, Liam Hefernan, a member of um INLA, and Pat Hayes, a member of PR, PR. Um do you agree that Red Action could be described as a terrorist support group?"
01:44:33 described as a terrorist support group?" Yeah, one or two of them engaged in terrorist activities. Would I say that red action and and the stuff as a group where a terrorist organization that's not a description that that I would give give give to the
01:44:45 that that I would give give give to the organization, but that some people did engage in in activities which I would describe as terrorism. Um, I'd like to ask you about reports on
01:44:56 Um, I'd like to ask you about reports on individuals and in particular Well, I mean I mean you have to give it the context of I'm not defending the things. I regard the British states occupation of Ireland as terrorism. I I
01:45:09 occupation of Ireland as terrorism. I I regard it, you know, I the atrocities that my mates told me about the rest of them, they're the same that, you know, people innocent people get killed. So if you want a definition of innocent people
01:45:20 you want a definition of innocent people getting killed, then the British armies are exactly exactly the same. I've got no the things Britain Britain has no right to occupy parts of Ireland or to continue to
01:45:31 parts of Ireland or to continue to occupy parts of Ireland. And I' I'd celebrate to the end of my dying deer if Britain was not continuing to occupy parts parts of Ireland. There's no question at all all about that. But if
01:45:44 question at all all about that. But if you wanted a de broad definition, that's what I what I what I what I would regard it regard it as. But it's not to me to decide how the Irish decide that they want to rid their country of of British
01:45:56 want to rid their country of of British occupation. And as I said, some of my mates have been part of or lads I know, mates. Sometimes it's a struggle mates. You do fall out with the things, but yeah, that would be my political position.
01:46:08 position. um
01:46:10 um reports on individuals and the uh reference to them being violent. Uh we heard from Mr. Hedley yesterday um and
01:46:21 heard from Mr. Hedley yesterday um and in particular report behind METAF's bundle tab B53 MPS 024
01:46:30 MPS 024 5891.
01:46:36 We can see here at the bottom of that page
01:46:40 page a reference to him being violent with a strong Irish accent
01:46:48 and then Steve Hedley, a committed Republican from Derry.
01:46:54 Um, you knew Steve Hedley quite well, did you? Would you? I know Steve very well, of course. Yeah. and and would you agree with this description of him and
01:47:06 agree with this description of him and what's set out in this report of him?
01:47:12 Did Steve upset lots of members of the CRC?
01:47:17 CRC? I mean,
01:47:19 I mean, Steve's attitude would upset people very generally in terms of the fact that he was very
01:47:28 was very uh strong in promoting his in promoting his politics, but I wouldn't say that was a general thing.
01:47:37 thing. I wouldn't say that that was the situation. He's a working-class lad. He's a working-class load out to Dury and he's he's been a a building worker all his life and
01:47:53 and such people are not soft. They're not they're not soft. They they bring with them their [clears throat] experiences of life and that is that's where we gain what
01:48:06 and that is that's where we gain what how we gain actions and attitudes and the rest and the rest of the stuff. That's that that is just where we from. We don't you know and and I ain't uh
01:48:21 that's not generally the the this the situation. Obviously for me it's a bit easier to understand cuz I'm closer to that that background. I'm closer to understanding that situation but I could
01:48:33 understanding that situation but I could understand how other people would uh get upset and other bits of stuff. So yeah, and and you know, you're working on it. You're working on a railway line and
01:48:44 You're working on a railway line and you're laying tracks and you're doing all of those sorts of things. It's very difficult to come off those situations and to be, you know, all the time right on because you're fighting for your
01:48:55 on because you're fighting for your bread and butter and that is the the reality. I've seen it in my dad. I've seen it in all sorts of people. And so sometimes
01:49:05 sometimes you can find it uh difficult to express your politics in in the in the in the best in the best best ways, but that's not generally how I feel how I feel,
01:49:16 not generally how I feel how I feel, Steve. No, it's not how I feel. H had you seen him being aggressively violent in in terms of instigating violence on demonstrations or any of the No, I hadn't seen anything like I hadn't
01:49:29 No, I hadn't seen anything like I hadn't seen anything like that. uh uh with with Steve. I had seen I had seen on picket lines where we had we had discussions put it that way and they they they were
01:49:41 put it that way and they they they were uh
01:49:45 uh aggressive discussions. You can't have that when people are shouting and screaming and the things you have to be again the same situation on anti-fascism. You've got to know that if you're going to get in such discussions
01:49:57 you're going to get in such discussions that if the other persons decide that they want to wall up you want that you can look after yourself. Very quickly before we move on to blacklisting um you mention in your witness statement at paragraph 2.37.
01:50:09 witness statement at paragraph 2.37. Sorry I have to say even strong characters like Mark Maf are wary of criticizing upsetting him too much. Well that's going to be interesting because two years later me and Steve had a uh
01:50:20 two years later me and Steve had a uh what was it? uh 12 articles in a magazine in which we both vigorously attacked each other. So I never had any difficulties uh criticizing Steve
01:50:33 difficulties uh criticizing Steve Hedley. It ended up, you know, with us falling out and me contending that he sold out an industrial dispute that he was involved with. There's no secrets about that. You can read about it there.
01:50:44 about that. You can read about it there. Like I said, I think it's there's at least eight articles. I wrote a a pamphlet on it which I published saying that David sold out an industrial dispute in conjunction with Mr. Bob
01:50:56 dispute in conjunction with Mr. Bob Crow.
01:50:57 Crow. The pennies mightier than the sword. Yeah. in terms of the I had no no problems in terms terms of the terms of the situation and I haven't had any problems uh speaking and even if I
01:51:09 problems uh speaking and even if I thought personally that that was going to be going to be the case I would I would be brave enough I would be brave enough to say it to she or or or he
01:51:20 enough to say it to she or or or he would be I would I would do that without question and and I think everybody knows that's the situation Um sir, I've got an eye on the time.
01:51:31 Um sir, I've got an eye on the time. It's half past 3. Is now a convenient time to break? I do have uh short questions about Mark Jenner and his uh instances of violence, but that can wait
01:51:43 instances of violence, but that can wait till after the break if if Yes. If you're going to get on to blacklisting, then I think there needs to be sufficient time to to deal with that.
01:51:49 that. Yeah.
01:51:50 Yeah. Um so 10 minutes now. Is that all right? We'll break for 10 minutes. Get a cup of tea again. Cheers. [clears throat] All right.
02:05:26 Mr. Metaf, uh, just before the break, I was going to ask you about, uh, Mark Jenner's use of violence. In your witness statement at paragraph 2.37, you note three occasions where you say you
02:05:38 note three occasions where you say you witnessed him using violence. First, at a march in Hobburn, um where you say that he tried to lead an attack on a pub and threw bricks at the pub despite being asked not to do it
02:05:51 the pub despite being asked not to do it and that led to be people being coralled. Do you recall that? I recall it very well. Okay. And and uh what was the the purpose for him doing that? Do you recall that?
02:06:05 I suppose the purpose for him was to scatter the people. I was guessing at the time that was the M& ambition. I substantly think that it was to uh to get us coralled.
02:06:17 get us coralled. And and what was the context? Can you give us more? Yeah, it was what Steve described yesterday, which basically there was a loyalist band there. There was no We weren't there because of that. we were
02:06:28 weren't there because of that. we were there because they were being supported by the national by the national front and that's that that that that's it. Uh the second occasion was in 1995
02:06:41 the second occasion was in 1995 when you say that Mark Jenner assaulted a drunken abusive man at an Irish social that you pulled him off and you took him for a drink. I wasn't the only person who who pulled
02:06:52 I wasn't the only person who who pulled him off. It was universal uh to make sure that hadn't happened. Obviously she took the lad out who' come to cause some grief and that that was it. It was on a
02:07:03 grief and that that was it. It was on a Saturday. It was on a Saturday night. I could even tell you son played on the Sunday
02:07:10 Sunday all them sorts of stuff. And was that in a a political event? Yeah, it was a political arena. I think it had been organized by the Republican forum uh that I I I recall at the at the
02:07:21 forum uh that I I I recall at the at the time. So yeah, it was a it was a it was a political event. I never witnessed Mark General or Mark Casty causing any bother in in stuff which didn't involve politics.
02:07:32 politics. Um the third occasion is uh something you've referred to already which is when somebody tried to attack a picket line with a a bic a bike chain a motor bike chain. That's correct.
02:07:43 chain. That's correct. Um and Mark Jenner intervened to protect the people there. Yeah, we we we were there in support of Johnny Jones and the other lad who's still alive who' been uh transferred over uh from the to the
02:07:55 transferred over uh from the to the council. They're trying to transfer them over to boats. There'd been a dispute in which the two of them refused to agree to what was basically a campaign to sell them out and we'd gone down there to do
02:08:07 them out and we'd gone down there to do it. Uh a full-time convenor was organizing people to cross the picket lines. There was a lot of uh anger about this. still is to be fair, although Johnny's now dead. U and uh uh
02:08:23 Johnny's now dead. U and uh uh the police were not involved in any of the around the picking or anything like that, but there's one guy uh leather jacket, leather thing, leather coats who came uh and he's a big kid, the big lad,
02:08:35 came uh and he's a big kid, the big lad, and he came with a a a metal chain with the lock on the end of it swinging at the whole thing. and Mark basically sort of stopped him. And you
02:08:46 And you I'm very grateful that he did. I have to say I have to say I'm not grateful for any of the other stuff that he did, but I'm very grateful that that he that he he did do so because if they had been
02:08:57 he did do so because if they had been able to use it or we we would have got hurt.
02:09:01 hurt. Uh those were the only incidents of violence you say you could remember from that time. That's correct. Is that right? Um, plus there were two incidents in 97 when CRC members including you and Mark
02:09:14 when CRC members including you and Mark superclude door locks. Well, that was basically me and Mark. Okay. And that was of known fascists in the area. Is that right? The the the individuals concerned had
02:09:25 The the the individuals concerned had been uh told that they were not welcome where they where they were. They weren't of any serious stature to put it mildly, but they were being
02:09:38 put it mildly, but they were being regular nuisances. Not too far actually from the house of the black woman I mentioned. Uh and and uh so yeah, we did super glued those
02:09:49 super glued those uh moving to blacklisting. Unfortunately, they were out separately. I
02:09:55 I would have preferred if they were stuck in the house. At least they wouldn't have been out causing any bother. So that was the situation. uh behind tab B46 in metaf's bundle
02:10:08 uh behind tab B46 in metaf's bundle MPS0245669.
02:10:13 It's a nominal report on Brian Higgins 14th of November 1995.
02:10:22 Yeah, I know Brian well. Um,
02:10:28 Um, paragraph two
02:10:33 reported as being a long long-standing activist and some would say troublemaker whose enthusiasm for trade unionism has led to him being blacklisted by most
02:10:45 led to him being blacklisted by most building trade employers. This is obviously a report from Mark Jenner, but was it something that you were aware of that Brian Higgins had been blacklisted?
02:10:57 that Brian Higgins had been blacklisted? Of course. And um
02:11:00 And um it's like asking is does the sun shine. And how extensive was that? And what what
02:11:09 what everybody knew that Brian had been the leading light in the Lang's lockout dispute of 1986 and he was a hero for doing so because
02:11:20 and he was a hero for doing so because what that meant was not only defying the employers but it meant defying the trade union officials on building sites. Everybody knew, everybody knew that and
02:11:31 Everybody knew, everybody knew that and that the dispute had involved them moving as flying pickets from one site to another and the workers in those sites all responded to a man. I don't think there was any women involved. The
02:11:43 think there was any women involved. The front of the picture on that which is a thing is of the of the people who were on strikes. Flying pickets was a traditional sense which was outlawed under the Thatcher government in with
02:11:54 under the Thatcher government in with support of the uh the Labor Party and uh obviously a picket is the most vital form of working-class self-defense. An active and organized and properly
02:12:06 active and organized and properly stewarded picket means we're much more likely to persuade people to come out on strike. going out on strike is the only serious political weapon that the working class has and the picket lines
02:12:17 working class has and the picket lines must be defended as vigorously as is possible. And Brian had organized this. He'd moved people around and they had won the dispute. It's probably the most
02:12:28 won the dispute. It's probably the most uh
02:12:30 uh he should be remembered by the working class in the same fence as Cable Street and and other events. I was delighted to help Brian publish the booklet which
02:12:41 help Brian publish the booklet which appeared on his black on his blacklisting file. I fell out with Brian Higgins big style when I was I told him that I thought Mark Jenner 2001 I told him in 2001
02:12:53 him in 2001 well before this all came out that I thought that Mark Cassidy was a was a a police thing and he he he thought I was personally having to go at him. [clears throat] His isolation at home
02:13:05 [clears throat] His isolation at home led to him making really poor political decisions and he was uh misused by far too many people who hope to use him to gain some luster from his his politics.
02:13:18 gain some luster from his his politics. He died exceptionally early and his wife died not long afterwards as well because of the fact she had three jobs continuously to keep the family and their grandparents going. Uh Brian
02:13:30 their grandparents going. Uh Brian Higgins uh disagreed with him on many many things particularly the stuff around the Republican forum as it turned out. But Brian is is is up there with Mickey Fay who I know exceptionally well
02:13:43 Mickey Fay who I know exceptionally well who was the lad who turned round the march in 72 on the on the on the tower hill with the doctors and Penville 5 and all those sorts of things. He's in that along with other female comrades that I
02:13:55 along with other female comrades that I regard as absolute heroes like one of whom who is here Selia Stubs. Uh all sorts of people there that would be in my top 10 uh people that I regard as uh
02:14:07 my top 10 uh people that I regard as uh great people. Did the CRC or resistance help other people that have been blacklisted as well?
02:14:14 well? Absolutely. Anytime. Anytime. Steve Hedley was when Steve Hedley lost his job. We organized uh twice times to bring other workers out on strike. We went, we spoke to them, I
02:14:28 strike. We went, we spoke to them, I spoke to them, Steve spoke to them. We said to them, "Miss lad has been victimized on his on his job, on his workplace, and you need to support them." And the usual response was, "What is the trade union officials going to
02:14:39 is the trade union officials going to say where we're saying, well, the trade union officials will say, let's deal with it by legal, legal methods, industrial tribunals, and that sort of stuff." And we would say to them, it's not going to get them the job back, and
02:14:50 not going to get them the job back, and it's here and now. we need your support here and now and we would gain support for that. So yeah, all the we we we constantly did that and and and as a
02:15:01 constantly did that and and and as a result of as a result of which uh we didn't gain the the the the support of the official unions, but we did gain significant support of ordinary ordinary
02:15:12 significant support of ordinary ordinary workers. So we did we did do that. And in Brian's case, the the two lads I'm talking to, Johnny Jones and them, they were being victimized. They both have massive files
02:15:25 victimized. They both have massive files on them. A number of of the people have ma have mass massive files. So yes, that that's the situation. I was given when the consultant association was raided, I
02:15:37 the consultant association was raided, I was sent by the people dozens and dozens of files on them. It was of no surprise to me whatsoever that large numbers of the people who appear on those files were full-time trade union officials who
02:15:50 were full-time trade union officials who had conspired with the employers to make sure that these lads uh didn't get work again and a large number of them have never worked again. Some have gained compensation and [snorts] that some of
02:16:02 compensation and [snorts] that some of the trade unions have come forward to be fair and they've done great they've done great jobs. Now uh c can I ask you was there any sense at the time that the consulting association or
02:16:15 time that the consulting association or the economic league might have been fed information from the police? Yeah, there is there is there is that and obviously Jennis Nam appears Jennis NM appears on
02:16:26 Jennis Nam appears Jennis NM appears on the list and there's other NEMs with just their initials who I think were serving uh pl were serving police officers yet again with respect with respect with my lack
02:16:37 with respect with respect with my lack of knowledge is really one of the reasons why DF Smith should be called to to this inquiry because he can he can see 10 times what I can see I'm a
02:16:48 see 10 times what I can see I'm a complete novice he's fought for it for the best part of 20 years and he's the best person to come down and see it and this inquiry will be weakened if it does not involve TF Smith bane hater call and
02:17:01 not involve TF Smith bane hater call and he'll be accompanied by blacklisted workers whereas I'm you know I'm have no importance in in that struggle in terms of that situation but he is and he should be called and it's a major
02:17:12 should be called and it's a major weakness to the inquiry if he's not called and if he wants to give evidence he'll give evidence can I just pick up on one thing you said You said Jenna's name appears on the list.
02:17:21 list. Yeah, a few times, doesn't it? Yeah, I understand. I haven't took I haven't on the consulting association list, you mean? Or
02:17:26 mean? Or to be to be honest again, I'm I'm I I'm lost my my focus has been on the situation which happened with with with Brian. Okay. In ter term in terms of the
02:17:38 Brian. Okay. In ter term in terms of the situation because it was a massive file that they had had on him. I don't think it was just about Bill Works, but Dave Smith is the is the person to get here to speak. But our involvement in these
02:17:50 to speak. But our involvement in these things
02:17:50 things sorry are you able to assist us with with whether it was Mark Jenner's name or Mark Cassidy that was as again I'll repeat I I didn't think I'd be asked that so so close close so
02:18:03 I'd be asked that so so close close so closely just in terms of Steve Edley's position to give you some idea is that he got his job back the first time he didn't get his job back the second time he was promised vigorous support by his
02:18:15 he was promised vigorous support by his union the RMT including senior officials all of whom were leftwing people and Graeme Smith is here. They were promised work for industrial privates.
02:18:26 work for industrial privates. They didn't do so. They didn't do so. It was left to Graeme to provide the political support and the social support for the things even though Steve was one of the leading political activists in
02:18:38 of the leading political activists in the RMT at the time. Now in terms of the the building worker group in itself the reason why this was important particularly important to me is because
02:18:49 particularly important to me is because as I mentioned 150 building workers on an annual besis were being killed and I didn't know I was speaking to a a police officer but I just thought it was a building and I was saying there are laws
02:19:02 building and I was saying there are laws about this which should prevent this. 70% of those killed on site or other works the things it was a carnage everywhere you went. Now, I was dragged into it because of the fact that they
02:19:13 into it because of the fact that they you were getting full-time officers from UKAT who were writing articles about how they going around London and they were thinking and they were writing articles about how they'd gained money for the deaths of these workers after they were
02:19:24 deaths of these workers after they were killed. We didn't want them killed. We didn't want them killed first and foremost. We a worker has to go to work to get decently paid and not come home crippled or killed on a daily basis or
02:19:37 crippled or killed on a daily basis or going home with terrible injuries. My first strike I ever organized was over as over asbestous in a workplace. I bought out a load and be I was I wasn't even 20 of the things. So health and
02:19:48 even 20 of the things. So health and safety is vital to workers and that's why people were why we decided if the unions are not going to organize strikes over these things we do it ourselves in terms of um getting on a blacklist
02:20:00 in terms of um getting on a blacklist being named on a blacklist can you tell was there were you aware at the time of something called list x companies of what
02:20:10 of what list x companies no I wasn't okay um can I just say in general right university in general, right? I knew throughout this whole period of time in
02:20:21 throughout this whole period of time in my politics that I was being spied upon. I knew I knew I from moving to London the second day I was here getting me out of mind. The the fellow work I was with
02:20:33 of mind. The the fellow work I was with had been spied upon in in the United States of America. She far worse than what had happened to me. They planted a bomb. Uh they the they the I forget who it was, the FBI where it was and they
02:20:45 it was, the FBI where it was and they fitted her up. So I knew I can [clears throat] I just ask you and she was still being spied about other specific people that raised blacklisting in this inquiry. Uh Lisa Toyser, do you uh
02:20:56 Toyser, do you uh No, I don't know. You don't know her? Not me. No, I don't. Okay. Um did you know Frank Smith? Yes.
02:21:03 Yes. Okay. Um, were you The reason I ask about Lisa Toyser is because she's provided an an exhibit to her witness statement that actually shows her entry on the consulting
02:21:15 shows her entry on the consulting agency,
02:21:16 agency, right?
02:21:17 right? Um,
02:21:19 Um, documents. Um, but if you're not able to help us with that,
02:21:24 that, sorry, I can't you you can't help us with that. Unless you in the direction and I find some what she said. I I didn't I didn't No. No. Okay. Um,
02:21:36 No. No. Okay. Um, your own experience of being blacklisted, do you understand that you were on a a blacklist at some point? I think the word blacklist was is an
02:21:47 I think the word blacklist was is an exaggeration to some extent. I think what happened with me is when I moved north and I I was applying for jobs. Uh, it it was during the period in which they were moving from uh one form of and
02:22:01 they were moving from uh one form of and it was good. I I I for me right I think it was good that there was a register right of uh for working with kids is something that I think was good. I don't
02:22:13 something that I think was good. I don't think I think people should have those records
02:22:16 records and you're talking about the CRB checks as they used to be. I think I think it I think it I think it was it was good. we can't have and and I mean I you know there's been all sorts of stuff about child sex scandals and
02:22:27 of stuff about child sex scandals and bits of stuff and wherever it's been whatever the color of people and the rest of the stuff h I've supported those those campions I've never taken any
02:22:38 those campions I've never taken any definition or distinction [clears throat] like I supported people in Rotherham who were the things I've supported people up in the northeast who were getting abused
02:22:49 in the northeast who were getting abused all the time it's it's something I've never shied away from, ever, [clears throat] ever and ne and never would shy away from from that situation. But I feel
02:23:00 from from that situation. But I feel exceptionally passionate about the fact I'll put it this way. I'm not happy about somebody who appeared here because of of my concerns about that. Okay,
02:23:13 of of my concerns about that. Okay, that's and that's that's that's known about to be fair. So there's um and I was never happy about leftwing groups. We chucked AFA chucked out of one of our
02:23:24 We chucked AFA chucked out of one of our meetings a leftwing group who argued there should be no age of consent. The person didn't their feet did not touch the ground in terms of that that situation. I'm what I'm but what I'm
02:23:37 situation. I'm what I'm but what I'm saying what I'm saying it's a good thing in my case what was happening is my CRB checks were coming back after 9 or 10 months after I applied for posts which were only one year posts and some of
02:23:49 were only one year posts and some of those one-year posts they kept those posts open and when I worked for League City Council it took me 10 months to get the post I worked for a year I got a fantastic reference as a result of the
02:24:01 fantastic reference as a result of the work that I did which was assessing the services in the Armley district and in fact the services got increased as a result of the stuff that I I I I wrote like I mentioned in in the
02:24:14 like I mentioned in in the this is post 2000 about 2004 but I can't say I was victim I can't the only sense in the victimization is people don't like my politics that's it but I can't say I've
02:24:26 politics that's it but I can't say I've been there's a list I'm not I'm not not that I know of that I'm on a list in ter terms of the situation but we can say for building workers that they were on a
02:24:37 for building workers that they were on a specific list. I happen to know the guy who raided the economic [clears throat] league originally. I happen to know very well the person who went into their offices in Skippton and took away took away the stuff. I've interviewed the
02:24:48 away the stuff. I've interviewed the person. I couldn't find you the interview. So I'm well aware of the blacklisting that that uh took place right across the whole whole whole situation. I'm aware there's a m again
02:25:00 situation. I'm aware there's a m again referred to a mate of mine who was blacklisted because of the watering dispute. Tory Hall did our cartoons. He was blacklisted. Brilliant cartoonist. Fantastic. Did the posters for Malcolm
02:25:11 Fantastic. Did the posters for Malcolm Kennedy when Malcolm was fitted up because of the murder of Patrick Quinn in Hammersmith PlayStation. So I'm aware of them situations. But but you haven't had disclosure whether it's it's through the ICO or
02:25:23 whether it's it's through the ICO or otherwise. No, I can't say that. I'm on any list. I can all I can say is that my stuff took an extraordinary amount of time. It's all documented. It's all the letters that I wrote all the all the times of
02:25:35 that I wrote all the all the times of the situation. I can't I can't prove that to be the uh to to to be be be the situation. I can't I can't tell you. I suspect I strongly suspect it was it was
02:25:48 suspect I strongly suspect it was it was deliberate, but I I can't I can't prove it.
02:25:53 it. Moving to trade unionism and Mark Jenner's involvement in that. In his witness statement at paragraphs 198 to 199, he says that he joined UKAT but
02:26:06 199, he says that he joined UKAT but didn't attend meetings. He says he remembers going on a picket of a UKAT national meeting in Sheffield and handing out leaflets and other occas and on other occasions attending a UKAT
02:26:18 on other occasions attending a UKAT meeting to assist Brian Higgins in his campaign against the union. um but otherwise wasn't involved in union activity as such.
02:26:29 union activity as such. That's true. Is is that right? I didn't go to Sheffield. I couldn't tell you. But that that that is that is true. Mark was not an active trade union. Well, he didn't have a workplace, did he?
02:26:40 did he? Um
02:26:41 Um a workplace in a traditional sense. Yeah. Um
02:26:46 Yeah. Um he was active in the Brian Higgins defense campaign. We know that from your your evidence earlier and he it was he was under strict uh instructions as to what he he he should
02:26:58 instructions as to what he he he should because he had no political experiences to take to work as to persuade them to support Brian Higgins and Brian and the other lads Johnny and
02:27:10 other lads Johnny and Kenny and all them sorts of stuff. They they had no they they had their own political experiences and myself had those political experiences. What he did do was obviously by having that role he could hoover up n which could be passed
02:27:21 could hoover up n which could be passed on to other people and is it in that same capacity that he was involved in the Steve Hedley campaign?
02:27:28 campaign? We could never have we could never have have of have of have of have of have of have of have of have of have of have of have have of have of have of have of have of have of have have of have of have of have of have of have of have of have have got so many people out on that dispute if if if Mark had [cough and clears throat] not been
02:27:39 had [cough and clears throat] not been involved. We didn't have a van to do that. He but Jennet did not come in to the meetings and speak to the workers. He had no resonance amongst those workers, myself, but of course Steve had
02:27:51 workers, myself, but of course Steve had the resonance. We went in and said Steve's lost his job. He's your shop steward. The union isn't we, in fact, we didn't even say that. We just said, "He's lost his job. You need to come out." It was only later during that
02:28:03 out." It was only later during that dispute did an activist from the Socialist Workers Party who did his best to make sure that the struggle was lost uh by suggesting we went down to the uh full-time officers uh posts and and get
02:28:16 full-time officers uh posts and and get their support. At which point I said they ain't going to give that support. They're not going to support the the fine of the anti-rade union laws. There's no way Bob Crow was ever going to break the law. You know, he's an
02:28:27 to break the law. You know, he's an absolute trade union junior bureaucrat to to the degree, you know, I my nickname for Bob and I told him this name was that he was the grand old juke of York. He walked men to the top of the hill and he walked them down the hill.
02:28:38 hill and he walked them down the hill. That's that's my political position on on Bob Cron. Bob I never had any problems in telling but he didn't like it. But that that was that was the that was the political position and that's
02:28:49 was the political position and that's what happened. Steve, you know, it's all documented. It's all written up. There's there's not there's not a problem. Grim represented Steve Edley. You you you've written about it in your
02:29:00 You you you've written about it in your India indie media article. No, it was in the weekly worker newspaper, the party of the Communist Party of Great Britain. There was eight I honestly there was so many articles. All I did at the end, however, I
02:29:12 All I did at the end, however, I published all of the articles and I sold at least 500 copies and I was living I was living in Sunderland by then. I I'd already started self-publishing stuff
02:29:24 already started self-publishing stuff and I had a very vigorous uh self-publishing thing of which the best was an attack on the Countryside Alliance and the Richard Player. The the the article I'm referring to is where you say that um Mark Jenner had
02:29:36 where you say that um Mark Jenner had transported pickets to sites where people had been killed in an effort to stop production. So So was he involved in that sense? You mentioned he was involved no with Steve's case.
02:29:47 he was involved no with Steve's case. Yes, he was involved in those things. We also went to hither green and we brought out railway workers on a pay dispute. Uh we we did all sorts all Yes. He he was
02:29:58 we we did all sorts all Yes. He he was and his help was uh uh much appreciated. We could never have done that. What about the what about the industrial disputes in North London? JJ Foods and
02:30:10 disputes in North London? JJ Foods and and those [snorts] sorts of actions. Was he involved in the Yes, he was involved in in in in the dispute. He wasn't people to be fair. There's people here who who supported that dispute uh fair and very good for
02:30:24 that dispute uh fair and very good for them and uh he went up but he was there he wasn't he wasn't it wasn't he wasn't an important Steve Hedley was there uh so he wasn't uh I think uh you know
02:30:36 so he wasn't uh I think uh you know Helen Stale was there you know uh there's a few other people that were present uh but he he was of no importance in that dispute at all and apart from those activities He
02:30:48 and apart from those activities He wasn't otherwise involved in trade union activities. Well, he wasn't really involved in trade union activities. That was his weakness. That was his problem, wasn't it? So, in a way in in a way it was a good front.
02:31:00 a way in in a way it was a good front. He become in order to to remain involved. He had to be doing something, didn't he? So, that was a good front for his involvement because he was involved in the structure in the organization
02:31:13 in the structure in the organization because of course by this time he's in his late 30s, isn't he? So he's he he if he's he's from Liverpool blind me I mean you know you come from Liverpool you've got to have some trade union jurian
02:31:25 got to have some trade union jurian experience in your 30s you know you have to have some knowledge so he was increasingly being found out he was increasing and of course by that period of time me myself I was dubious about about who he was and he wasn't bringing
02:31:38 about who he was and he wasn't bringing a lot he wasn't bringing a lot to the table and of course his reports demonstrate that absolutely graphically because they're made We we know that ultimately the the CC
02:31:50 We we know that ultimately the the CC CRC came to an end. Yeah. Yeah. Um that was 1998. Yeah.
02:31:56 Yeah. And I think in your witness statement you say well started in 1993. Yeah. It ran till about 1998 and Mark Jenner was there for about threeifths of the time that it was active.
02:32:08 time that it was active. Um,
02:32:10 Um, ultimately within the CRC, were there internal disputes um, personality clashes that would have led to it closing down?
02:32:25 I mean, there were political differences. There were political differences when we started.
02:32:33 started. um the [clears throat] attempt to um put together a series of things that we agreed upon and to fight for them was not acceptable to the majority of the
02:32:45 not acceptable to the majority of the people involved in the organization. You'd have to ask them why that wasn't the case. Uh, and with that in mind, uh,
02:32:57 the case. Uh, and with that in mind, uh, the amount of work that I personally done, uh, cuz the main other person involved had been Grim, okay, that I I I just thought, you know what, I' I'd
02:33:10 just thought, you know what, I' I'd rather see something else. And I think you you were moving north anyway, weren't you? because it would be true to say at that specific time when the center closed that that was the the
02:33:22 the center closed that that was the the the decision had been had been made that I was going to move north but by which point I did the person I moved north with was in in in my life and still remains in my life and so um and you
02:33:37 remains in my life and so um and you know I've got a kid and all that sort of stuff. So yeah in in and so but it was in the back it was in the back of my mind. I was aware that my father was going to die. Uh and uh I was aware that
02:33:52 going to die. Uh and uh I was aware that uh my mom needed more support from me and uh I thought well I'll I'll I'll shift and I can do what I can on a
02:34:04 shift and I can do what I can on a personal level to help me dad as he as he died. And he died you know he died he died the week I was supposed to get married as it happened. So we right
02:34:15 married as it happened. So we right arwood sword even at the end. Uh and so that took a little bit longer to get married. Uh we didn't have the great and good were going to come to the original wedding. Uh we just went and got married
02:34:27 wedding. Uh we just went and got married and found two or three people on the street who were prepared to help us get married. And that was the you know it's might be the worst decision the lassie's ever made but we're still we're still
02:34:39 ever made but we're still we're still happily married. Can I ask you about the resistance group as well? Ultimately, um,
02:34:46 um, we have a report, I don't think I need to display it, but from 96, there's a report that says the resistance group is driven by internal dispute and a clash of personalities. And
02:34:58 of personalities. And they both go together in some respects. And paragraph three, the split within the group is distracting the organization from its main objectives.
02:35:09 organization from its main objectives. Um,
02:35:11 Um, How involved was Mark Jenner in terms of the disputes? Was there any sense that he was creating the disputes, was inflaming them, or was it all just a
02:35:22 inflaming them, or was it all just a natural part of an organization's uh
02:35:26 uh I mean, I suppose the obvious question is that was would we have continued to exist if Mark Cassidy had not come along? In my view, the answer to that must be no.
02:35:37 must be no. But did he play a part in trying to agitate for things to happen? I think he probably did, but I still don't think I don't think that that that's the case. There's too many strong personalities
02:35:49 There's too many strong personalities involved with the people, including, you know, the people and what would describe as the anarchists and other bits of stuff.
02:35:56 stuff. No, no, I don't think I don't think that would would be the case. And and to be fair, you know, I use just as the word anarchism has loosely described to [clears throat] myself, I'm I'm I'm putting people into pigeon holes, which
02:36:07 putting people into pigeon holes, which they probably, you know, they would they might tell me to bugger off if you know when they when they hear this because I still do know I still do know a few people and other
02:36:18 still do know a few people and other other bits of stuff. So he he wasn't influential enough you're you're saying to determine of course he of course he was he was influential but I mean far more
02:36:30 influential but I mean far more influential was like the situation you know with what happened with Steve for example you know that was a permanent and difficult sit situations and although Steve stuff think sort of
02:36:42 although Steve stuff think sort of happened slightly afterwards if that had been the situation you know we would have we would have fallen out we would have fallen falling out. Anyway, there's a totally different approach and you know my situation with Steve is that I
02:36:55 know my situation with Steve is that I disagreed strongly with what he did on the situation but I still think he went on to be a pretty good trade union official who stood with his members when they when they actually needed him to stand to stand to stand [clears throat]
02:37:06 stand to stand to stand [clears throat] with him and ultimately that is the role of a of a trade union official uh and to and he was he was ultimately elected by by members you know he wasn't elected
02:37:18 by by members you know he wasn't elected when he went to become a Yokat official, I was exceptionally angry that he'd gone with the very body that we'd had to oppose on behalf of Brian Higgins. My anger is still I still feel angry about
02:37:30 anger is still I still feel angry about that. But in the other situations, fair play to them. The workers wanted him as as their as their union rep. And ultimately, like I said, people stand and fall by if they're elected to these positions because the people in the
02:37:42 positions because the people in the organizations want them to elect them to those positions. And that has to be an absolute universal right that those in the working-class trade union labor movement are elected. Can I ask you now
02:37:54 movement are elected. Can I ask you now about Allison? Um,
02:37:59 Um, in
02:37:59 in I'll get on. Yeah, right. In in his witness statement at paragraph uh 212.5,
02:38:07 uh 212.5, Mark Jenner says that in the first couple of months of his deployment, he discovered he could not sustain the lifestyle required of his cover role [snorts]
02:38:15 [snorts] by being in a flat on his own. He was not contactable by his target group and that was noted by several people such as Metaf who had been unable to contact him at his cover address. Metaf suggested I
02:38:29 at his cover address. Metaf suggested I move out of the flat and stay with him or with other CRC members and save rent. I felt it was not sustainable for me to resist or refuse what would seem to be
02:38:40 resist or refuse what would seem to be the obvious thing to do. It was he who suggested I could move into Allison's house. Allison was not an active member of the CRC at the time. I realized she had a landline phone and knew a lot of
02:38:52 had a landline phone and knew a lot of people in Hackne and I felt that that would make an ideal base for me to continue my undercover operation. Um,
02:39:03 Um, the suggestion that Mark Jenner needed a landline so he could be contactable. Does that chime with your memory of what was happening at the time? Yeah, that
02:39:14 was happening at the time? Yeah, that was true. He didn't have a land line and he was difficult to contact. And had you suggested to him that he needs to be contactable so he ought to move out?
02:39:22 move out? I I
02:39:24 I I it's actually one of the re when I got here and I was I was listening to that I I was really trying to think did I do that? Did was I the person who did that? Firstly, you just subconsciously I don't
02:39:37 Firstly, you just subconsciously I don't think I would suggest that some blowout should move it in with some lass. That's that's how I feel about it. But no, my uh thing I said to him is there's a lad who lives over the road from you still
02:39:48 who lives over the road from you still actively involved who's in workers power who you know go and ask him. That was that's what what happened and I if I can find the
02:39:59 what happened and I if I can find the lad I'll I'll seek to get that confirmed although I'm not sure I directly asked him but he literally lived over the over the road and actually how I got in contact with Mark Jenner at one point
02:40:10 contact with Mark Jenner at one point was [snorts] through that lad. I went and asked him to go and knock on his door and and to and to tell him That's
02:50:56 Sorry about that. When he when he started to withdraw, he left Allison's uh [clears throat] h home, you went to visit him in Luton. Is that right? I don't think I did, to be fair. Now, in
02:51:09 I don't think I did, to be fair. Now, in terms of what I've seen, I don't think I I don't think I did. Did she contact you to say that she was concerned about him? I'm not even sure. I I think she might
02:51:23 I'm not even sure. I I think she might might have done, but I can you recall having any contact with him after he started to distance himself?
02:51:32 himself? No.
02:51:32 No. From Allison and the CRC? Not massively. I was getting on. I mean what you have to what you have to understand in this thing there's a sort of discussion that he came to football matches with me even that's limited that
02:51:47 matches with me even that's limited that that's serious that is seriously limited he he he I went I went to games which I went to dozens of games and he certainly he certainly like I think as I mentioned
02:51:59 he certainly like I think as I mentioned on Saturdays went to football on Sundays I played football football twice so he's not in my circle he's somebody I know politically but he's not in my circle of of of friends and by that point of time
02:52:12 of of friends and by that point of time I wasn't gone drinking every night. So it was when it's when he came to meetings and when he the rest of the stuff he did he wouldn't have known he wouldn't have known even 120th of the stuff that I I was I was involved or up
02:52:26 stuff that I I was I was involved or up to on the things he never any of that that that situation he he couldn't
02:52:34 couldn't finally finally then just in terms of the impact that his reporting has had on you on a personal level you've made reference to the fact that he was reporting on your your personal
02:52:45 reporting on your your personal finances,
02:52:46 finances, um bank details, um your
02:52:50 um your I mean all that's all that's obviously obviously wrong. Uh there's no question about that. Uh if you're asking me what impact is has he had on me? uh in part
02:53:02 impact is has he had on me? uh in part that's probably to be decided isn't it really depending obviously I've come here I've told I've I've told you uh what is the truth and uh but of course there's a possibility other people could
02:53:14 there's a possibility other people could use my politics in in the past if they decided to uh but him personally uh I'm much I feel exceptionally distressed exceptionally distressed come
02:53:26 distressed exceptionally distressed come on I feel angry and upset that I didn't spot him
02:53:31 spot him Having said that, when I had worked him out, by which time I didn't feel confident enough about speaking to Allison because he'd moved on to other people in organizations who were very
02:53:43 people in organizations who were very hostile to me and their hostility was based on the fact that I had political influences over the people who they wanted to politically influence. That's the hostility which came which came down
02:53:54 the hostility which came which came down which came down to it. Uh I think I think you've said that you accepted that you may have been reported on by the security service.
02:54:05 on by the security service. What what I'm saying is I knew that I would be I knew throughout this whole period of time you cannot be involved. There's been a war going on in Ireland for hundreds of years and that there's
02:54:16 for hundreds of years and that there's been massive security security things. 30 years 30,000 troops were on the thing. The British state was not messing around in Ireland. you know it was going to keep Ireland and I knew that and
02:54:27 to keep Ireland and I knew that and there was never any doubt I had no I had no belief that my personal involvement would lead to the withdrawal of Britain from Ireland but I felt that it was the right thing to be involved with and that
02:54:39 right thing to be involved with and that the situ the situation was that the restrictive practices which were being engaged in in Ireland would come to would come to to to Britain in the right thing I don't do things I don't do things because I think that they uh that
02:54:53 things because I think that they uh that they're going to win If I was doing that, I'd never be here. I'm I you know, my my my my politic my nickname football-wise is doom and gloom because I'm always up and down about something.
02:55:06 I'm always up and down about something. But my nickname politically is that I'm a constant optimist. I always believe that things will turn out ultimately that we will win. Unfortunately, I've been wrong. You describe such reporting as Mark
02:55:19 You describe such reporting as Mark Jenner reported on you as a threat. It's largely fiction. You you say in your witness statement it's a threat. Do you want to expand on that? Only only only it's a threat in the
02:55:30 Only only only it's a threat in the terms of the things that people could cut. Political opponents of mine could use that against me. That's that's that that's that's a threat. Well, that's that to be straight about that. That's a
02:55:43 that to be straight about that. That's a threat which is constant. If you've been a socialist, that remains remains the situation. And it's it's one it's one it's more of a threat obviously to my
02:55:54 it's more of a threat obviously to my wife and my Ben in that respect because I'm a big enough lad to look look after myself in in in in in that way. And and and to be fair to be fair lots of the
02:56:07 and to be fair to be fair lots of the people who do not share my politics do share lots of other things that I'm involved with. So at at the football for example when me and Jim we organized the
02:56:19 example when me and Jim we organized the campaign against Eano and we got death threats from from football fans. Okay but we also got support from people who were uh certainly not supportive of our
02:56:31 were uh certainly not supportive of our stance on Dano. We got lots of support from them and and some of those people if I was grateful for the football would would be on it would be on my would be
02:56:42 would be on it would be on my would be on my side. So that's the case. But the lad who I know is a paratrooper who lives down the road would be on would be on my side because I can politically speak to that person and disagree with
02:56:53 speak to that person and disagree with that person whilst at the same time remaining remaining friends with them. And so that's that's that's the basis that it's not done on the basis of that
02:57:04 that it's not done on the basis of that we agree on these things but it is done on the basis that where possible I can engage in vigorous determined because I want to change his mind. I want to change people's minds.
02:57:16 change people's minds. Um those are all the questions I have for you. Is there anything in particular you want to say um in addition to uh to the chairman? Now I'm I'm minded that we
02:57:27 the chairman? Now I'm I'm minded that we do have to break to see if there are any more uh questions rule 10 questions reexamination. There's not a lot I want want to say because obviously the questions uh direct the only thing again to stress is
02:57:41 direct the only thing again to stress is that all the lots of the questions are about about violence. I've never been uh done for violence in that respect and I've spent a long long time engaging in
02:57:54 I've spent a long long time engaging in activities which have been designed to prevent violence. Uh I've never been engaged in any kickoffs at the football. I've defended myself on numerous
02:58:05 I've defended myself on numerous occasions at at the football. So if I wanted to be a violent person and to be fair it would be easy if I really did want to engage in violence football violence is you know on stacks of lads
02:58:17 violence is you know on stacks of lads who were involved in football fans stacks of lads and all from all sorts of teams uh and and and other bits of stuff. So you can discount any of that. My political activities have always been
02:58:28 My political activities have always been aimed at encouraging as many people as possible to engage in politics because ultimately it's only through the masses of people that we can change. We can change the world uh on other situations
02:58:43 change the world uh on other situations on the anti-fascist front. I've been prepared to perhaps uh be threatened with the loss of my civil liberties uh for for doing that. I see ourselves as in the tradition of the 43 and 62 group.
02:58:56 in the tradition of the 43 and 62 group. Uh and the uh I'll be a socialist. I've been a socialist since I was six or seven and I'll be a socialist till the
02:59:07 seven and I'll be a socialist till the day I die. Most people would say that's a failing cause. I accept that. That's been the whole time of my political position. I have a stack of friends as a consequences of the work that I've
02:59:18 consequences of the work that I've engaged in. I've got numerous political opponents. I'm not in any definition. Some of them are close friends of mine. Uh I find it a tragedy as to what has
02:59:30 Uh I find it a tragedy as to what has happened in Ireland in particular. Uh absolutely tragic. uh and I've stood with people and I'll always stand with people who are engaged in political
02:59:42 people who are engaged in political struggle for a better workplace, better community facilities, all of those sorts of situations. Uh I repeat again, DF Smith should be called here. Uh I feel
02:59:55 Smith should be called here. Uh I feel on this particular case I feel very angry about what happened to Allison and I feel very angry in general what's happened to all the lasses who've been involved. I think that's a tragedy. I
03:00:07 involved. I think that's a tragedy. I think the taking of people's names also for uh to use their names to use and I think I think is absolutely disgraceful. I'll condemn without I don't expect
03:00:18 I'll condemn without I don't expect anything from the Tories. I'll condemn without rescution those Labour MPs who have supported legislation which makes what happened to these to the women and
03:00:29 what happened to these to the women and the the families uh more or less legalized
03:00:33 legalized uh without reservation particularly condemn my XMPP Holly Lynch who I sought to get to condemn what had happened who basically said that campaigns around
03:00:45 basically said that campaigns around these these situations and I feel it's fair that she should should be named I sought to do that. I sort of to get the CP to condemn it before I left. Uh and I
03:00:56 CP to condemn it before I left. Uh and I could turn without things that these if these things are allowed to to continue uh to take place. I'd like to uh praise all the people who've turned up to be
03:01:07 all the people who've turned up to be brave enough to speak up and to do so. And um I have to say um on a personal level, I'm looking forward to uh listening to uh Graeme speak tomorrow.
03:01:18 listening to uh Graeme speak tomorrow. And I repeat again in my belief that I was sort of lobbed on in a way to something that happened. As I mentioned before, Graeme uh did a fantastic job
03:01:29 before, Graeme uh did a fantastic job defending the community and uh so yeah, I'm I'm I'm looking I'm looking forward to that. if there's he might not be looking forward to it himself. Uh but
03:01:41 looking forward to it himself. Uh but I'm I'm you know I the the work that HCDA in particular did and supporting the community uh was fantastic absolutely utterly absolutely fantastic
03:01:54 absolutely utterly absolutely fantastic and prevented many many more people being badly hurt or killed and there's a long history of the working class being killed by the police in in Hackne and
03:02:05 killed by the police in in Hackne and I'm I'm delighted to know that uh that he's going to speak and I've got I've got nothing else to I didn't think I've got anything. I was thinking of something to finish on the football, but
03:02:16 something to finish on the football, but I even I'm stumped for words now. So, thanks for your time. Thank you, Mr. Metaf. We understand there are no rule 10 questions, but there is some re-examination.
03:02:28 there is some re-examination. Yes. Um would you like to undertake that now?
03:02:31 now? Can I have five minutes? Of course. Rise for five minutes. Rise.
03:09:23 Yes. No questions. In that event, all that remains is for me to say thank you to you for tending to give oral evidence. As with every
03:09:35 to give oral evidence. As with every witness who gives evidence, it is of assistance to me that they do so. And I'm grateful to you. Thank you. Okay. Cheers. Thank you.
03:09:46 That's it.