Graeme Smith, co-founder of the Hackney Community Defense Association (HCDA) and key figure in the Colin Roach Center, gives evidence. He describes being assaulted by police in Manchester in 1983, moving to London, and founding the HCDA to address police misconduct. Smith discusses the Trevor Monville case, undercover reporting on legitimate community activism, and SDS characterization of police accountability campaigners as 'anti-police'. He challenges the accuracy of intelligence reports about the CRC and explains the organization's work exposing deaths in custody and police brutality.
00:33:07 Good morning, everybody. Uh, this morning's evidence is going to be transmitted via the live link, but only after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report
00:33:18 mobile devices may use them to report what they've heard in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed. Mobile devices may not be used for recording or photography.
00:33:31 I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give
00:33:42 that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth. the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you. Yes.
00:33:53 Yes. Begin by asking what is your full name? Graeme Smith. And in fact, Dr. Graeme Smith. That's right. Dr. Smith, you made a witness statement dated the 21st of February this year,
00:34:06 dated the 21st of February this year, consisting of 44 pages and signed by you. Are the contents of your witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?
00:34:18 of your knowledge and belief? They are apart from one error in a year regarding uh torchlit processions. I think I may incorrectly refer to the
00:34:30 I think I may incorrectly refer to the last one as being in 1991 1990 and in fact it was 1991. The only error that I'm aware of. Thank you for correcting that. Um, all of your
00:34:43 you for correcting that. Um, all of your statement is now in evidence. I'm not therefore going to recover everything that you have already set out. Uh, but I would this morning like to explore with you some of the main topics that you
00:34:55 you some of the main topics that you have addressed in that statement. I'd like to begin by the key personal experiences in your life that led you to be where you are sitting now. And I'd
00:35:09 be where you are sitting now. And I'd like to begin with something that's happened to you uh when you were living in uh Greater uh Manchester when you were younger and it's referred to in
00:35:21 were younger and it's referred to in paragraph 8 of your statement. It's a particular um incident that happened and I wonder if you could just uh help us with describing briefly uh what happened
00:35:35 with describing briefly uh what happened um in November 1983, please.
00:35:39 please. I would describe it as a life-changing experience. Uh out with uh a black gay friend uh one evening in Manchester.
00:35:50 evening in Manchester. We were arrested, separated, and both of us were violently assaulted. Uh, I only know about the assault that uh took place against me. I was taken
00:36:03 uh took place against me. I was taken into a police cell. I was punched. I was kicked. I was told I was a queer bastard. By who? By who? By police officers in the cell. There
00:36:15 By police officers in the cell. There were two police officers in the cell with me. I was thrown against a wall and I lost consciousness. I regained consciousness in a hospital bed
00:36:27 bed and there was a police officer beside me and I screamed that he beat me up and uh the uh medical staff insisted he he
00:36:39 the uh medical staff insisted he he leave the room. I was taken back to the police station. There was a pre friendly police officer in the car that tried uh to uh uh calm me and uh uh I was left in
00:36:52 to uh uh calm me and uh uh I was left in a police cell overnight. And when I was released in the morning, I was told by the desk sergeant that I was so drunk that I fell out fell down the stairs.
00:37:03 that I fell out fell down the stairs. When I arrived at the station, I told him I was beaten up by your colleagues. I did not do anything other than walk
00:37:14 I did not do anything other than walk the streets of Manchester after that incident. I didn't see a doctor. I didn't go to a solicitor. I spoke to a colleague at work who said, "You must
00:37:25 colleague at work who said, "You must have done something to deserve it." So, I didn't raise it with anybody after that.
00:37:32 that. Uh
00:37:34 Uh I think this was in November 83 and uh by
00:37:40 and uh by uh uh March it was St. Patrick's Day 1984
00:37:45 1984 I moved to London and left my job. Before moving to London when you were attacked in the way that you described this life-changing event how old were
00:37:56 this life-changing event how old were you at that time? Uh I was 26.
00:38:04 And so you moved to London. Whereabouts? First of all, I lived just off Grazen Road.
00:38:11 Road. I found a job quite quickly uh uh with uh uh the Dialeride service uh transport service for people with disabilities.
00:38:22 disabilities. uh and I worked uh with the dialeride service for the the next 14 years uh full-time and latterly part-time
00:38:33 uh full-time and latterly part-time because of my commitments to HCDA. But at that time I was probably drinking heavily much too drinking much too much
00:38:46 heavily much too drinking much too much and uh really was not engaged with events around me. I have no memories for example of music in these years. There
00:38:57 example of music in these years. There are big there's a big gap if you like uh in uh my life where I gave up everything in Manchester and moved to London for the first time.
00:39:11 Did there come a time when you spotted a particular poster? I'm going to ask if we can just please put it up on screen. Sir, it's at your tab A2, Dr. Smith.
00:39:22 Sir, it's at your tab A2, Dr. Smith. It's your exhibit 1. It's UCPI 375, please.
00:39:32 If we can turn to the second page of that.
00:39:36 Yes, it was uh there were many Stone Newington was covered with these uh uh posters. Uh it was a very uh effective
00:39:47 posters. Uh it was a very uh effective poster campaign.
00:39:52 effective in this way in relation to you because what did you do about a year later?
00:40:03 what did you do about a year later? Well, no, this was uh uh uh the the sequence of events was uh prior to um these posters going up.
00:40:15 these posters going up. I
00:40:17 I a work colleague insisted that I complain against uh police officers who uh detained me in a police car after I'd helped a client of Dialeride to uh
00:40:32 helped a client of Dialeride to uh uh move house. Um the land her landlord had phoned the police and the police came and arrested me uh uh on suspicion of robbery and I
00:40:45 me uh uh on suspicion of robbery and I said that uh what I was doing that I was helping the I had helped uh the uh uh tenant of the property to move to sheltered accommodation the other side
00:40:56 sheltered accommodation the other side of London. Uh she was the client of Dialer Ride. Uh, and they locked me in the back of the police car pending their inquiries
00:41:07 the police car pending their inquiries to confirm uh uh my story. And I think I was in the back of the police car for about 20 minutes locked in. And it was quite an ordeal for me because I was
00:41:20 quite an ordeal for me because I was reliving my experience in the police cell
00:41:24 cell that uh I was going to be beaten up. I had been beaten up, so it wasn't really beyond the realms of possibilities. I was I was uh uh detained for not having
00:41:35 was I was uh uh detained for not having done any wrong actually for being a good citizen.
00:41:38 citizen. And it was the the the the emotions that I went through for were were very uh strange because I was also thinking they can't hurt me. They've
00:41:49 thinking they can't hurt me. They've done it once. They can never hurt me again. Uh and this shouldn't be happening. and a work colleague insisted I make a complaint and I said I don't want to complain and he said you've got to
00:42:00 complain and he said you've got to complain and he drove me to the police station uh Kentishtown police station and um I went in and said I wish to make a complaint and I was left waiting for
00:42:11 a complaint and I was left waiting for about 15 minutes and I just got up and said I've got to be somewhere else and uh then he took me the next day he said I'm going to come with you and sit with you in the police station to make
00:42:23 with you in the police station to make sure you complain saying, "You've got to do this." And he did that and I made a complaint. Uh uh and uh police officers after that came to my home
00:42:35 came to my home uh uh as in regard to the complaint. Uh and uh I was very they made me feel I was wasting their time that the police officers were only doing their jobs that
00:42:46 officers were only doing their jobs that this is a complaint that should be informally resolved and that sorted and that was it. I was told that the complaint had been dealt with and it was finished. I just wanted them out of my
00:42:58 finished. I just wanted them out of my house, out of my home. Uh, and it was as a consequence of that complaint that I realized I had to address this fear of the police. But I
00:43:09 address this fear of the police. But I also had this feeling that I could do something because they could never hurt me like they'd hurt me before. So
00:43:20 So these posters at that time were up all around Stoke Newington and I then went to I phoned up the number 9856878
00:43:32 9856878 and uh I attended a meeting uh and uh started working with uh the Trevor Monville campaign. Could you give us an
00:43:43 Monville campaign. Could you give us an idea of the nature of that work and and how often you would work with the campaign and and who in the campaign you worked with just so that we have an idea please?
00:43:55 please? Well uh at that meeting and this I can't remember the exact date that I uh joined the meet uh uh presented myself but it would have been
00:44:07 presented myself but it would have been spring of 1987. It would have been maybe two to four months after the incident which resulted in uh Trevor Monville
00:44:20 which resulted in uh Trevor Monville having brain surgery.
00:44:24 I was quite shocked. I believe my memory serves there were three people at that meeting.
00:44:31 meeting. One was Annette Monville now deceased. Another was Tony Hall now deceased. and myself.
00:44:45 Tony Hall brought his skills as a cartoonist and said that uh uh he he wished to to help
00:44:54 help and I brought my experiences and that I wish to help. And uh I remember
00:45:05 And uh I remember saying to Annette, I wish to leaflet every house in Stoke Newington about police behavior of this
00:45:16 Newington about police behavior of this type.
00:45:18 type. I was very determined uh not just to to help the Monville family but also to address my own fears of the police and work on
00:45:31 my own fears of the police and work on behalf of the community. Annette Monival at that moment was running the campaign
00:45:42 I wouldn't say entirely on her own efforts.
00:45:45 efforts. She was very much supported by her family and uh John Monville as we uh then referred to uh uh John Burke Monville uh was present a lot but he was
00:45:59 Monville uh was present a lot but he was running his shop. He had a business to maintain and um also uh I think he was having to
00:46:07 having to deal with a family that had been uh uh totally uh uh u devastated by what had happened. And it was Annette who had a bit of distance and she had the time.
00:46:19 bit of distance and she had the time. She wasn't working and she ran the campaign and I assisted her very much in the background at first and then slowly
00:46:31 the background at first and then slowly uh uh came a bit more to the four as members of the family trusted me and I was very uh much welcomed into the family. I've they are I'm to this day
00:46:44 family. I've they are I'm to this day very close to the family.
00:46:48 And given your involvement with that campaign, can you just help us with going from that position where you are um becoming more and more active to the
00:47:01 um becoming more and more active to the creation of the Hackne Community Defense Association, the creation of the HCDA? H how did that come about from you working closely with
00:47:13 come about from you working closely with Annette Monaville? Well, there were several factors. I I guess I I was a confident graduate uh uh uh somebody whose life had been
00:47:25 uh uh uh somebody whose life had been upended. And I do think, you know, people always thought of me uh uh uh as being a young 30year-old and uh and I would joke, well, get beaten up by the
00:47:37 would joke, well, get beaten up by the police, you start your life again. and you're younger and uh I then um uh other people because of the work we were
00:47:48 other people because of the work we were doing would get in touch with the uh the Trevor Monville campaign and I would ask them to get involved and uh so there were more people working
00:48:02 and uh so there were more people working uh in the Trevor Monville campaign uh and uh alongside that um the Trevor Monaval campaign had an office. It was really the reception area of the family
00:48:14 really the reception area of the family center in Rectory Road uh which was run by the Hackne Council for Racial Equality and every week there would be two or
00:48:26 and every week there would be two or three people would come in and say that they'd been assaulted by police and we you know there was just nothing there for them. We advised them as to what uh they could do. Uh uh would refer to them
00:48:38 they could do. Uh uh would refer to them them to solicitors but uh it was quite apparent that something more was required. And then when uh uh Tunai Hassan
00:48:51 And then when uh uh Tunai Hassan uh died in the custody of Stone Newington police officers then based at Dston police station. uh the uh Tunai Hassan's family contacted the Trevor Monival campaign
00:49:04 contacted the Trevor Monival campaign and we had meetings with them and we helped them set up the justice for Tunai campaign.
00:49:12 campaign. now
00:49:14 now and whereas the Monaval family went to one solicitor and had to change solicitors to a specialist solicitor dealing with who was uh uh experienced
00:49:25 dealing with who was uh uh experienced in dealing with complaints against the police. We referred the uh uh uh Hassan family directly to a uh a solicitor, a
00:49:37 family directly to a uh a solicitor, a specialist solicitor in inquest law and uh also the organization Inquest and uh we so what what we had was that
00:49:48 and uh we so what what we had was that team had uh expanded to include two campaigns
00:49:54 campaigns and then uh and and there were all these people we were aware of that uh uh uh were unrepresented and you know at at a loss
00:50:05 loss and um and then in November uh Gary Stretch was assaulted by seven offduty police officers working out of city road police station and it was a horrific
00:50:17 police station and it was a horrific attack. He was uh hospitalized. much publicity, local and national and uh uh then discussion started about doing
00:50:28 then discussion started about doing something more general in that circle and we organized uh on the first anniversary of Trevor Monival's brain surgery a torch lit
00:50:41 Monival's brain surgery a torch lit procession from Pankney police station to Dorston police station to Stoke Euington police ation and it was advertised as a we
00:50:53 ation and it was advertised as a we remember commemoration remembering those that suffered and died in the custody of Hackne and Stone Newington police. Uh wreaths were laid at the three police
00:51:04 Uh wreaths were laid at the three police stations and there were a thousand people on that uh torch lit uh uh procession and uh
00:51:15 procession and uh the
00:51:17 the it was also uh to draw attention to the u forthcoming inquest into uh uh Tuni Hassan's death which was uh I think in
00:51:29 Hassan's death which was uh I think in the February started soon after uh uh the uh uh uh torch lit procession. Immediately the the success of that event and how the community uh came out
00:51:41 event and how the community uh came out to support those two families really confirmed to me that there was something broader required and I wrote I think in a period of a week after that. I think I
00:51:52 a period of a week after that. I think I wrote four discussion papers which were first circulated be among this expanded group which would maybe be a dozen persons by this time and then reached
00:52:04 persons by this time and then reached out uh beyond that to other people in the local authority uh uh uh in the Institute for Race Relations and lawyers
00:52:15 Institute for Race Relations and lawyers that were working in the field. and I convened a meeting there uh um I can't remember if it was March or April
00:52:26 remember if it was March or April uh and I think that I think it may have been held at Liberty Hall, but I'm not sure. It may have been the family center or Liberty Hall. I'm going to ask if we could please um put up paragraph 11 on page five of Dr.
00:52:39 put up paragraph 11 on page five of Dr. Smith's witness statements uh please because this is where you address uh the meeting that you have just uh referred to.
00:52:54 So you were describing this meeting at the rectory road family center I think in March 1988.
00:53:10 And so what was discussed at this particular meeting in March 1988? I I put a proposal I'd prepared. I'd already devoted a lot of time to the subject. I
00:53:22 devoted a lot of time to the subject. I was drawing on my own experiences, my personal experiences, uh the uh uh uh powerlessness and uh uh isolation that I experienced, the many
00:53:35 isolation that I experienced, the many years really that uh of suffering that I went through in that alone. uh uh and also the uh clear demand that there was in the uh uh community for a different
00:53:49 in the uh uh community for a different type of service and I saw it right from the outset as a service. It was instead of uh providing goods like uh uh housing or or social care or health or something
00:54:02 or or social care or health or something like that, this was a different sort of service that was providing sort to people that have been victimized by police. Was it that this meeting that you met Mark met?
00:54:13 you met Mark met? It is I believe it was the first uh event that he attended meeting. Well, it may have been the first meeting he attended, but he'd only just moved uh
00:54:24 attended, but he'd only just moved uh from uh uh uh uh Birmingham. Uh you said the purpose was to provide a service. And yesterday we heard evidence from Mark Metaf.
00:54:36 from Mark Metaf. He said in his evidence that you did a fantastic job protecting the community in relation to your work um and creating
00:54:47 in relation to your work um and creating HCDA. But following this meeting, could you take us to the next meeting 23rd of July and what happened at that meeting
00:54:58 July and what happened at that meeting and the creation of the HCDA itself, please?
00:55:02 please? Um
00:55:04 Um well, there was uh It it took longer than I expected. Uh there were discussions, there were disagreements uh and uh uh I think there were several
00:55:16 uh and uh uh I think there were several meetings uh for uh uh discussing the setting up of this. I think the f it was it was planned for May uh the conference to launch HCDA
00:55:29 uh the conference to launch HCDA but it didn't actually take place till the uh towards the end of July. Um
00:55:36 Um those meetings were um everybody
00:55:42 everybody uh was on board setting up HCDA,
00:55:48 HCDA, the name and uh uh what's its primary purpose would be but there were differences of opinion as to uh how focused it would be and I was quite
00:55:59 focused it would be and I was quite clear all along that it was about uh police wrongdoing. And I think it has to be a generic name like that. We referred to uh the
00:56:10 like that. We referred to uh the police's behavior as crimes uh uh quite clearly. So u and those sort of things had to be discussed before the launch on the 23rd. C can I just ask you
00:56:23 launch on the 23rd. C can I just ask you about this particular concept that you've referred to just now that
00:56:31 that police wrongdoing and you've referred to this being referred to as a crime as opposed to misconduct. I wonder if you could just say a few words about the
00:56:42 could just say a few words about the importance of of that distinction, please.
00:56:49 If somebody if I went out and assaulted somebody the same way that I would be was assaulted by police officers, I would be arrested,
00:57:01 I would be arrested, interviewed and charged with assault.
00:57:09 Whereas with police officers, if they commit such crimes, they are dealt with as complaints. The language is very precise.
00:57:23 The language is very precise. Particularly at that time, these were complaints against the police. They weren't criminal allegations made against police.
00:57:34 against police. I felt very strongly that I had been the victim of a crime of which nothing was done.
00:57:42 done. And I think every man and woman that went through similar experience says to me felt exactly the same that these police
00:57:54 felt exactly the same that these police officers should be arrested and charged. They shouldn't have to make a complaint in order to bring those officers to justice. The police themselves should be bringing those officers to justice.
00:58:07 bringing those officers to justice. That's the way the process works. The police should not be exempt from that process.
00:58:12 process. And that's why we always refer to uh uh police crimes. I'm going to ask if we could please turn up UCPI 3 and then 47s
00:58:28 on and page 21, please. I'm going to ask this is your exhibit three.
00:58:46 Ask if we can in fact go back to page 17 first. I wonder. Thank you.
00:58:56 So this is pamphlet produced by the HCDA and just following on from the answers you've just been giving, a crime is a crime is a crime. The title of that,
00:59:07 crime is a crime. The title of that, does that encapsulate what you've just been describing? Yes.
00:59:10 Yes. Okay.
00:59:13 Could we please turn forward in this pamphlet to page 21?
00:59:22 So in the introduction I want to ask you about what is set out there saying that Hackne Community Defense Association HCDA was formed at a conference in
00:59:34 HCDA was formed at a conference in Hackne Town Hall on July the 23rd 1988. And then this it is a voluntary self-help organization
00:59:45 self-help organization which consists of people who have been subjected to police malpractice. The principal objective of HCDA is to campaign against such police malpractice in the London Burough of Hackne. A major
00:59:57 in the London Burough of Hackne. A major part of HCDA's work consists of taking up individual cases and assisting lawyers in a parallegal capacity. A and reading that again after all these
01:00:10 A and reading that again after all these years, does that still encapsulate the purpose, the intent of HCDA? Well, I've just contradicted myself in terms of saying that we always referred to police
01:00:21 saying that we always referred to police crime, but uh I think this this uh report was written uh uh uh uh presented to two members of the Royal Commission
01:00:32 to two members of the Royal Commission on criminal justice. And I think uh I was probably being very bit more uh uh cautious in my language in referring to
01:00:43 cautious in my language in referring to police malpractice. But yes, I think that this was written in uh uh uh November 1991 when the uh members of uh the commission came to meet victims of police crimes in
01:00:56 came to meet victims of police crimes in uh in Hackne at the Stoke Newington uh family center. Uh and uh it does capture and it was something throughout HCDA's existence that that's
01:01:10 throughout HCDA's existence that that's what it did. It campaigned against uh uh police injustice uh and for police accountability throughout its existence and it there
01:01:21 throughout its existence and it there were differences within the group but the group itself and uh uh uh only supported people that had been victimized by police. It did
01:01:32 had been victimized by police. It did take up cases of uh uh racial violence and harassment uh calling on the police to uh support uh the family's uh
01:01:46 to uh support uh the family's uh suffering. As you are aware, um the inquiry is examining the justification of undercover police reporting at the
01:01:57 undercover police reporting at the accuracy of that reporting. And so it's important to understand uh the sort of things that HCA were doing and you've
01:02:08 things that HCA were doing and you've referred to the Royal Commission, but if we just refer to that second paragraph, the Royal Commission on Criminal Justice was set up following the release of the Birmingham 6 from prison on March the
01:02:21 Birmingham 6 from prison on March the 14th, 1991. On November the 4th, 1991, HCDA picketed the offices of the Royal Commission, calling on its members to attend a meeting of HCDA and meet people who have
01:02:34 meeting of HCDA and meet people who have suffered police injustice. Now, just in relation to that, that description of trying to catch the attention of this Royal Commission and and picketing their officers, could you describe to us that
01:02:47 officers, could you describe to us that picketing? Is there any suggestion of disorder or violence? Could you describe paint a picture of that for us please? Well, uh
01:02:58 Well, uh I think there were probably about eight of us who gave out leaflets outside uh uh of uh the offices of the Royal
01:03:09 uh uh of uh the offices of the Royal Commission. uh and that's uh uh I think we we referred to pickets as any attendance at premises uh which we wanted to draw attention to.
01:03:22 wanted to draw attention to. Uh and I think it's also uh the fact that we weren't seeking publicity uh uh in doing this. We were seeking to
01:03:33 uh uh in doing this. We were seeking to get the attention of the Royal Commission. And the thing is that the Royal Commission really there was uh dealing with miscarriages of justice
01:03:45 as a subject. Whereas these miscarriages of justice had come about because the police had either fabricated evidence or had not
01:03:58 either fabricated evidence or had not done their job in actually investigating crime and uh bringing offenders before the courts. So really police wrongdoing was at the
01:04:09 So really police wrongdoing was at the basis that was the foundation of uh these miscarriages and our intention was to draw the attention of the uh Royal Commission to
01:04:22 Commission to police wrongdoing. Uh and uh that many cases of police wrongdoing were never never became miscarriages of justice because they uh um
01:04:35 because they uh um the uh victims would be successful in court or they would be convicted and nothing more. They were just criminals. They had been criminalized. So there
01:04:47 They had been criminalized. So there were these many if you think of miscarriages justice as the peak the top of the triangle beneath that is all based on the everyday miscarriages of
01:04:58 based on the everyday miscarriages of justice that occur at a very low level uh uh which has become which we always would say have become uh acceptable
01:05:12 would say have become uh acceptable levels of police wrongdoing in the public. Nobody was seriously hurt. Nobody spent long periods of time in prison and therefore they didn't
01:05:24 prison and therefore they didn't register
01:05:25 register in the public's imagination if you like. Whereas for the victims, for example, me,
01:05:37 for example, me, it was traumatic. My life was changed. And that was the case for everybody. they they they wouldn't be registered and many of these people and I think
01:05:48 and many of these people and I think it's still the case today would do nothing about it. They would blame themselves as I did. My mother always told me to stay away from the police. Why didn't I stay? Why did I allow
01:06:00 Why didn't I stay? Why did I allow myself to be arrested? This guilt that people go through when they have an encounter with the police although they themselves are victims, we tried to explain it and understand it. So
01:06:14 explain it and understand it. So I think that's what we were trying to do and we were successful because two members of the Royal Commission came to that meeting and met uh uh a dozen members of HCDA that had
01:06:29 uh uh a dozen members of HCDA that had themselves been victimized by police and it was an extremely powerful meeting and this is if we go to the next paragraph in this document. So as a result of that what you
01:06:41 So as a result of that what you described as the picket, you have two members of the Royal Commission, Mrs. Newold and Professor Michael Xander attending the meeting. And so again, in
01:06:53 attending the meeting. And so again, in terms of we will examine in due course the reporting on you and the HCDA.
01:07:02 This is an example of a meeting where two members of a royal commission are attending to discuss the topics that you want to discuss with them. Yes.
01:07:15 Yes. I I want to just touch on one other aspect of this pamphlet and it's just to give us again an idea of the work of the Can I just uh say something about that meeting because uh
01:07:27 meeting because uh it had been very carefully planned because
01:07:32 because the people there uh had been traumatized by what had happened to them and as I say there were a dozen 12 people whose cases were presented it.
01:07:45 cases were presented it. But what happens in these incidents and I think you probably witnessed it with me talking about we relive these experiences every time we talk about them.
01:08:01 And none of those people could not break down when talking about their experiences.
01:08:09 So we paired them so that one would talk about the others so they wouldn't break down. So there was that diff distance
01:08:20 down. So there was that diff distance between them and it was a very emotional meeting, very powerful meeting and after the meeting, Professor Xander
01:08:35 and after the meeting, Professor Xander spoke to me, took me aside and said asked
01:08:41 asked if he could share that report, this report with the commissioner to Peter Imbert who was a friend of his
01:08:53 to Peter Imbert who was a friend of his and I said of course you can and uh I went round to his house after that and I know for that reason that that report was shared at the highest uh
01:09:06 that report was shared at the highest uh level of the Metropolitan Police
01:09:12 I'm going to ask if we can turn in that um document to page 30 please.
01:09:26 And I wonder if we can just go down the page. So, it's paragraph, you can see, Roman 13, political police. One of the things you've just said was that no one did not break down
01:09:40 that no one did not break down when describing events similar to the events that happened to you. And so what you have set out here in this document are statistics
01:09:51 are statistics uh but in relation to these statistics these represent people uh who have suffered as you've just indicated. Yes. Yes. Now just to give an idea of the
01:10:03 Yes. Now just to give an idea of the work at that time, we can see that out of the 130 cases taken up uh by the HCDA
01:10:15 of the 130 cases taken up uh by the HCDA um at that time. So this is between um July 23rd, 1988 uh when it was uh first uh set up.
01:10:28 when it was uh first uh set up. Out of those 130 cases, 67, so just over 51% involved black people. Out of the 57 cases of police violence taken up, 33,
01:10:39 cases of police violence taken up, 33, so 57.9%
01:10:42 so 57.9% involved black people. You then set out of 130 cases taken up, 60, so 46% involve people engaged in making political protest. And then you state
01:10:55 political protest. And then you state this in the documents. Black people and people involved in political protests are more likely to suffer police injustice in Hackne. HCDA believe that
01:11:07 injustice in Hackne. HCDA believe that individual police officers and the police as an institution discriminate against members of the public along the lines of race and their willingness to engage in political
01:11:19 willingness to engage in political protests. In this regard, police officers act as agents of political control as well as officers of law enforcement. So that was contained in the document that you have indicated uh
01:11:32 the document that you have indicated uh was circulated as you understand it at a high level.
01:11:39 I'd like to um move on if I may to the You want me to comment on that? Sorry. I think this was accepted uh uh
01:11:51 I think this was accepted uh uh subsequent to that. I think uh the pattern commission on policing in Northern Ireland was quite a watershed moment uh for policing a uh across the UK where it was acknowledged that uh uh
01:12:04 UK where it was acknowledged that uh uh police should not act as agents of political control and that the police's job was to enforce the law and uh uh I think what we've the reforms that we've
01:12:15 think what we've the reforms that we've had in policing since 1999 although I would uh uh dispute whether they no longer act as uh as agents of control. I think uh uh uh it it's
01:12:27 control. I think uh uh uh it it's certainly not seen uh I think there's been a whole discourse on uh democratic policing that has developed across the world since uh the uh millennium and uh
01:12:38 world since uh the uh millennium and uh that uh it's uh uh uh very much uh seen uh that the police's job is to enforce the law nothing more nothing less.
01:12:50 the law nothing more nothing less. And to be clear on on that topic, and it's a it's of course a subject that you have studied and lectured about for many many years, how would you define the
01:13:01 many years, how would you define the function of the police?
01:13:06 Um well, normatively it's to uh enforce the law,
01:13:13 law, but in effect it's much more than that. It is also a form of social control. uh uh and I think it is uh for communities
01:13:24 communities uh in holding police to account uh uh to ensure that the police are restricted to law enforcement. Unfortunately, in that broader uh I think if we look at police
01:13:37 broader uh I think if we look at police reform uh in uh uh certainly since 1997 because there has been uh uh uh uh have been programs of police reform since 1997
01:13:49 1997 and I think uh at the uh forefront of that was the McFersonen inquiry report which was the which triggered uh uh uh uh that that re first reform movement.
01:14:02 uh that that re first reform movement. uh and uh there was reform of the police complaints uh process and the uh introduction of an independent body. The uh independent police complaints
01:14:13 uh independent police complaints commission which was set up in 2004 and then was replaced. The police complaints reform of the police complaint system has been uh spectacularly unsuccessful.
01:14:24 has been uh spectacularly unsuccessful. That uh uh uh they seem to have a short uh uh independent police complaints bodies seem to have a short shelf life and uh there are still problems uh with
01:14:35 and uh there are still problems uh with uh uh uh the investigation of allegations against police officers. uh in regard to uh democratic
01:14:47 uh in regard to uh democratic accountability. Well, we've just had we've had the police and crime commissioners and they've been abandoned uh uh now because they're expensive and ineffective just as the old police authorities were. And
01:15:00 as the old police authorities were. And I think uh uh police accountability both uh the accountability individ of individual officers and the uh democratic accountability
01:15:12 democratic accountability uh of uh police institutions are particularly difficult nuts to crack and I suspect really these are the the dilemas of uh modern executive
01:15:24 dilemas of uh modern executive government. you have described your own journey at that time and what you were doing also in relation to your
01:15:35 you were doing also in relation to your work with the HCDA what the HCADA were were doing at that time. So with that context I'd like to move on to the undercover reporting on you and the HCDA. Uh I wonder if we could begin by
01:15:48 HCDA. Uh I wonder if we could begin by turning to Dr. Smith's statement page 22. It's paragraph 48 please. I wonder if we could just bring that up on screen
01:16:12 because here you state that UCO reporting
01:16:18 reporting on the HCDA commenced one month after its formation. And then this in 10 years between August 1988 and October 1998
01:16:30 1988 and October 1998 seven UCOs accredited with 44 reports naming HCDA or myself and then you go on to comment about the
01:16:42 and then you go on to comment about the accuracy of the reports and we'll look at some of the individual reports. Uh but first just identifying those seven
01:16:53 those seven UCOs that are you referred to there. I'm just going to list them and as I do so I I'm going to ask whether you have any recollection of any of those uh
01:17:05 recollection of any of those uh officers. The first is HN10 Bob Lambert. Is that someone undercover name at the time, Bob Robinson? Is that someone that you have
01:17:17 Robinson? Is that someone that you have any recollection yourself of? I do not.
01:17:20 I do not. Um, HN5, John Dyn's undercover name John Barker.
01:17:26 Barker. I do not.
01:17:27 I do not. Uh, HN25,
01:17:29 Uh, HN25, who used cover name Kevin Douglas? I do not.
01:17:34 I do not. HN122,
01:17:36 HN122, cover name Neil Richardson. I do not. Uh, HN43, Peter Francis, I do not.
01:17:44 I do not. HN78,
01:17:46 HN78, Trevor Morris. I do not.
01:17:52 HN15, Mark Jenner. I think your answer is different. I do.
01:17:58 I do. I'm going to ask you about Mark Jenner in due course, but I wonder if we could just begin by looking at some of the reports from some of these other officers. I'm going to ask please if we can put up on screen. Sir, it's at your
01:18:09 can put up on screen. Sir, it's at your tab B1. It's MPS074592,
01:18:15 please.
01:18:19 So, this is uh tab B1 in the Colin Roach Center bundle. We have it on screen there. I wonder if we could turn to the second page, please.
01:18:33 second page, please. Uh we can see the date of this report. 23rd of August 1988. I wonder if we could just expand. Thank you. So we can see paragraph two.
01:18:46 Thank you. So we can see paragraph two. Stoke Newington anarchist Norman Blair has recently been involved with Comrades in setting up a new front organization
01:18:57 in setting up a new front organization called Hackne Community Defense Association. Could you just comment on the accuracy of that?
01:19:13 Well, it's laughable the suggestion that HCDA
01:19:17 HCDA was an anarchist front organization,
01:19:23 but I I would like to add that I believe this was in keeping with the Metropolitan Police's orientation towards police accountability campaigns.
01:19:37 towards police accountability campaigns. This inquiry has received evidence of a special branch report in 1983 which was entitled something to the
01:19:48 which was entitled something to the effect
01:19:50 effect police accountability campaigns and extreme and political extremism.
01:31:24 Dr. Smith, we we can see what is set out here. The Hackne Community Defense Association, HCDA, have arranged coach transport for local activists to travel to the Blair Peach
01:31:36 activists to travel to the Blair Peach Memorial Demonstration in Sul on the 23rd of April 1989. Uh it is known that at least 60 persons will travel with HCDA including several
01:31:48 will travel with HCDA including several Hacknebased anarchists. The total London anarchist turnout is unlikely to exceed 50 individuals with an additional similar number of unaffiliated persons
01:32:00 similar number of unaffiliated persons from the punk and squatter communities. Anarchists from outside London are not expected to attend in any significant number. I'm going to ask similar question in terms of the accuracy of the
01:32:12 question in terms of the accuracy of the reporting uh that is set out here in John Dyn's report.
01:32:20 Well, it's a similar it's similar to the two uh um Lambert reports and it's using the anarchist label
01:32:32 label to malign
01:32:37 police accountability campaigns, justice campaigns. Um
01:32:49 I and others in HCDA work very closely with uh what was then the South or Monitoring uh group uh in organizing
01:33:00 Monitoring uh group uh in organizing the uh uh 10th anniversary um March
01:33:06 um March uh a member of HCDA did an excellent poster that uh uh advertised the event uh and uh it was something uh obviously
01:33:17 uh and uh it was something uh obviously uh was uh close to home. Blair Peach had been a teacher in Hackne. And at that time I was trying to contact
01:33:30 And at that time I was trying to contact uh Celia Stubs uh uh uh to talk to her and we did uh establish contact around that time and she became uh a key uh uh
01:33:45 that time and she became uh a key uh uh member of HCDA and a very very close friend since that date. Now something else significant about this report is that paragraph five we can see special branch reference Hackne
01:33:58 can see special branch reference Hackne Community Defense Association and there is a registry file reference number set out there 40088163 and so this is the first report on HCDA
01:34:14 and so this is the first report on HCDA where there's a an RF number there. Yes. And uh I understand from uh evidence that's been uh submitted to the inquiry to date is that uh registry file
01:34:26 inquiry to date is that uh registry file is opened after five or six references to a group or individual. So I think this is the third
01:34:37 So I think this is the third that's been disclosed. So there may be two or three that haven't been disclosed before this registry file was open. But it was certainly HCDA was formed in
01:34:48 it was certainly HCDA was formed in 1988.
01:34:49 1988. And a major concern of mine uh throughout this reporting uh uh the disclosed reports is that there seem to be many missing on HCDA
01:35:05 and myself.
01:35:09 In terms of the registry number, we will look at these numbers on some of the other reports because it's right, isn't it, that
01:35:19 it, that a number of different registry file numbers are applied to HCDA, but also to yourself. We'll see in due course. Yes.
01:35:26 Yes. All right. Could we please move to HN25 Kevin Douglas's uh reporting? It is, sir, at your tab BB3. It is MPS0746969.
01:35:40 Please,
01:35:46 I wonder if you could turn to page two of this documents
01:35:53 and it's the second
01:35:57 second paragraph. So the East London branch of the troops out movement TOM remains one of the strongest in London. It has approximately 10 to 12 active members
01:36:08 approximately 10 to 12 active members and a great many contacts. It has strong links with the local Turkish and Kurdish communities in the Halvy Center in Stoke Newington as well as the Hackne
01:36:19 Newington as well as the Hackne community defense campaign HCD well it says DCDA via privacy who belongs to both organizations. It is extremely successful in selling the paper with
01:36:30 successful in selling the paper with over 80 purchased a month. The East London branch is based heavily in the burough of Hackne and has strong links with the East London Irish year of action committee. So this reference to
01:36:41 action committee. So this reference to the East London branch of the Troops out movement Tom having strong links with the HCDA via an individual who belongs
01:36:53 the HCDA via an individual who belongs to both organizations. again in terms of the accuracy of that is is that a fair reflection is that inaccurate how would you uh characterize
01:37:04 how would you uh characterize when I read read this report as saying it's through that one person that uh there is a relationship or a strong link which to my mind it doesn't create
01:37:15 which to my mind it doesn't create strong links it just it just says that one person is a member of both
01:37:24 so I wouldn't I wouldn't dispute that uh that uh the one person was a member of both.
01:37:32 both. So one person was a member of both but that's not the same as saying that the HCDA itself as an organization has a connection with Tom. No no formal connection whatsoever. HCDA
01:37:45 No no formal connection whatsoever. HCDA had no,
01:37:50 as far as I'm aware, as far as I can remember, we'd never affiliated and we had uh Mark Meov and the very strong trade union uh
01:38:03 Meov and the very strong trade union uh uh uh uh uh methodology of affiliations and votes on affiliations. HCDA never did this. HCDA was so exclusively
01:38:14 did this. HCDA was so exclusively focused on the activities of Stoke Newington police hacking Stoke Newington police officers that had victimized members of the community. We had we
01:38:25 members of the community. We had we didn't have any time for anything else. We were a small voluntary organization and our work was more than taken up with dealing with the people two or three a
01:38:37 dealing with the people two or three a week that uh were approaching us for help. We it and and we did nothing else and it was known that we did nothing else and it that's what our reputation
01:38:48 else and it that's what our reputation was uh based on the fact that we didn't filter if somebody came to us with an allegation they were listened to they were believed which it was important to
01:38:59 were believed which it was important to do because of the trauma that they were going through and then we investigated and we supported them. That's the only work that HCDA ever did. Although it did
01:39:11 work that HCDA ever did. Although it did lead to other uh uh uh uh work around police accountability, but it was exclusively about police accountability. Would you say that that it was
01:39:23 Would you say that that it was exclusively about police accountability that everyone knew what the HCA HCDA did? If someone were to say that there
01:39:34 did? If someone were to say that there was scope for understandable confusion that these undercover officers mistook what you were doing for something else. Is there any justification for making
01:39:45 Is there any justification for making that mistake? I'm not sure what we were doing could be mistaken for anything but what we were doing because it was just so focused
01:39:56 doing because it was just so focused and it was evidence-based. We didn't uh uh it wasn't ideologically driven in any way. It was a response to what had happened, what the actions of police
01:40:09 happened, what the actions of police officers to members of the community. I'd like to move to another officer, HN122, Neil Richardson. It's the undercover name. So, it's at your tab uh
01:40:23 undercover name. So, it's at your tab uh B2 in the Colin Roach Center bundle. It's UCPI 30180 please.
01:40:34 So this report dated the 18th of August 1992.
01:40:39 1992. Uh the following information has been received from a secret and reliable source. Uh and this is the intelligence that is set out in the report. The Hackne Community Defense Association,
01:40:50 Hackne Community Defense Association, HCDA, has obtained a radio scanner to monitor police communications in the Hackne area. The HCDA is particularly interested in monitoring the activities
01:41:03 interested in monitoring the activities of a Hackne police unit headed by a sergeant, which it believes is specifically targeting anarchists in the area. Okay.
01:41:16 What is your reaction to reading an undercover police report describing the HCDA as obtaining a radio scanner to
01:41:28 the HCDA as obtaining a radio scanner to monitor the police? We
01:41:32 We I don't know anybody in HCDA who was in possession of a radio scanner.
01:41:44 You agree, wouldn't you, that this conjures up an image? Yes. of
01:41:50 of It's the same It's the same uh uh uh mode as uh previous reports uh uh the link with uh anarchism.
01:42:03 If we look at the bottom of that report, special branch references Hackne Community Defense Association and there is
01:42:14 and there is a different a second RF number. So that previously the number we were looking at was 488163. This one is 492
01:42:26 This one is 492 which is the year of the report 34.
01:42:31 So a second registry uh file number but for the same organization. Could we please take that document down? I'd like to move to
01:42:43 I'd like to move to Can I Can I just comment on that because HN122
01:42:46 HN122 Neil Richardson I I don't know uh uh uh uh
01:42:53 uh the man never met him but he submitted several reports and uh those reports uh
01:43:06 referred to Mark Moff as a member of HC or or equated Mark Metaf with HCDA. And Mark Meov was never
01:43:19 And Mark Meov was never uh uh a member of HCDA. I think I said in my witness statement that uh uh I can't recall him attending
01:43:31 that uh uh I can't recall him attending HCDA meetings, business meetings. I think uh I may be corrected on that. He did attend some HCDA meetings. I don't think he attended any a well he
01:43:42 don't think he attended any a well he himself was arrested on one occasion uh and he did attend to meetings because of that arrest but uh what we had was uh an
01:43:53 that arrest but uh what we had was uh an extension really of uh HCDA then to include other activities which HCDA was never involved in anti-fascist activities. HCDA never
01:44:05 anti-fascist activities. HCDA never involved itself in anti-fascist activities and again I go back to the discussions we had in setting up HCDA uh hackne anti-fascist action had been
01:44:17 uh hackne anti-fascist action had been involved in setting up HCDA and uh certainly that would have been part of those discussions as well as whether HCDA was an anti-fascist
01:44:28 whether HCDA was an anti-fascist organization. It never was. It never involved itself in uh uh uh anti-fascist activity other than if we were asked to
01:44:40 activity other than if we were asked to monitor
01:44:42 monitor uh which uh uh uh monitor uh protests by anti-fascist organizations and that was an aspect of HCDA's work that was developed which was monitoring of
01:44:54 developed which was monitoring of policing of protest and we had uh a very uh uh clear operational method for monitoring police uh policing of
01:45:05 monitoring police uh policing of protests
01:45:07 protests which uh uh I think was adopted by the Metropolitan Police itself. Uh uh I learned much later. I I'm I'm going to come on to some of
01:45:19 I I'm I'm going to come on to some of the reporting that does refer to uh anti-fascist uh actions and also naming uh HCDA. Um, could we turn though next
01:45:30 uh HCDA. Um, could we turn though next to one of Peter Francis's intelligence reports, sir, in the CRC bundle at your tab B12? It's UCPI 348, please.
01:45:51 So on this topic so we can see the date 30th of April 1994 and the organization referred to London anti-fascist coalition the organizer
01:46:05 anti-fascist coalition the organizer referred to as Mark Metaf number of present 50 uh sorry 80 and if we review this
01:46:17 review this it says that this demonstration against the British National Party BMP which was prompted by surveillance which indicated that BMP activists gathered at the venue
01:46:30 that BMP activists gathered at the venue is notable because it is the first organized by the new London anti-fascist coalition. This group is a revived version of the unsuccessful unity group
01:46:41 version of the unsuccessful unity group which Metaf started during 9293. And then this groups represented in the LAFC included uh and if we go down the list we can see Hackne Community Defense
01:46:54 we can see Hackne Community Defense Association is referred to there. Could you again just help us w with this? So, uh, reference to London Anti-Fascist
01:47:05 reference to London Anti-Fascist Coalition and HCDA being referred to as one of the groups represented in that in terms of accuracy. Could you assist please?
01:47:17 please? It's news to me. uh uh uh I think uh this uh uh Mark Mechov was understood to be uh or I don't know if HCDA was used
01:47:29 be uh or I don't know if HCDA was used as a general uh uh label uh and uh and equated with anarchism because Mark Meov was also defined as an
01:47:41 Mark Meov was also defined as an anarchist and a I think a a less anarchist type individual you could never find.
01:47:53 Very very rooted in uh uh socialism and uh labor politics. Just staying with Peter Francis. I wonder if we could turn. So it's at your
01:48:04 wonder if we could turn. So it's at your tab B15 in the CRC bundle. It's MPS 074587
01:48:11 074587 please.
01:48:19 So we can see HN43 mentioned
01:48:26 mentioned the top of the report here. But could we move to page two? So the body of the report itself. So the date 15th of September 1994. It's one of these event
01:48:39 September 1994. It's one of these event performers at St. George's Hall, Cable Street and Shadwell organization referred to as militant labor picket of election count.
01:48:50 election count. Uh and in terms of other organizations referred to, you can see again HCDA is mentioned
01:49:00 mentioned in relation to the report itself. It refers to uh numbers attending some 150 to 200 uh at this picket of an
01:49:11 150 to 200 uh at this picket of an election count. And you can see that under the numbers attended, it's broken down by the UCO. And can you see that it says 20 from NMP, HCDA, HAFC. So again,
01:49:25 says 20 from NMP, HCDA, HAFC. So again, in terms of the accuracy of this, here is an undercover police report about uh a picket of an election count uh by
01:49:36 a picket of an election count uh by militant labor. Um that's up to 200 people attending and reference to 20 of those from NMP, HCDA, HAFC. Could you
01:49:47 those from NMP, HCDA, HAFC. Could you help us again with the accuracy of this? Um how correct would you describe that? Well, I can't really understand it. I think again uh you say this is HN43 as
01:50:01 I think again uh you say this is HN43 as well.
01:50:03 well. Well, if we turn back to page one of this uh report, this is page one. Yeah. If in so on the top of the document. So we have subject is of public order police interest. If a copy is sent to uh
01:50:16 police interest. If a copy is sent to uh box 500, it must be sent under cover to redacted then quoting HN43
01:50:24 as an assigned. I think it's interesting that HN43 here uses the original HCDA
01:50:34 HCDA registry file number. Sorry. Here he Yes. Here he uses the uh the 8 he uses the the 88 number uh in
01:50:45 the 8 he uses the the 88 number uh in one of these reports and the 92 number in one of his other reports. And I I don't understand that and I don't know if the inquiry can help me uh with uh these uh different numbers and and how
01:50:57 these uh different numbers and and how they're they're used. But certainly it's something that I would like to understand I think uh uh more um because I also note that most HCDA reports go to
01:51:10 I also note that most HCDA reports go to box 500 go to MI5 the security service and uh that which suggests that there is an interest uh uh by uh uh the security
01:51:21 an interest uh uh by uh uh the security service in the activities of HCDA. Um but uh again I think uh I can only imagine that this has to do with uh anti-fascist activity conducted quite
01:51:34 anti-fascist activity conducted quite legitimately and probably by uh uh uh Mark Meov and others. Uh I think this is after the uh uh Colin Roach Center has been opened.
01:51:45 been opened. How do you feel about reports such as this mentioning HCDA being passed to the security service reading reading this? What's your reaction to that please? I think it's very disturbing and answers.
01:51:56 think it's very disturbing and answers. There should be answers as to why uh uh the uh uh security service uh was uh uh spying
01:52:06 spying on an organization uh that was whose sole purpose was to represent the interests of people that had been victimized by police. I think it's undermines democracy and it is
01:52:18 it's undermines democracy and it is damaging to the credibility the legitimacy of both uh that service and the Metropolitan Police. To avoid red herrings, can I say that the security service at about this time
01:52:32 the security service at about this time did say they were not interested in police monitoring campaigns. with respect that it was also has been also said in evidence that by officers
01:52:43 also said in evidence that by officers uh that contrary to the evidence uh that they were not monitoring police accountability campaigns in the Metropolitan Police Service and the SDS and
01:52:53 and forgive me that's a separate topic which is one of the ones I'm investigating but I simply wanted to try and avoid um what looks to me at the moment to be a red
01:53:04 looks to me at the moment to be a red herring because at this stage age the security service. There is evidence that the security service did say they were not interested in police uh monitoring
01:53:15 not interested in police uh monitoring campaigns. Um whether they had been before different matter but by this stage they weren't. Now I accept and one of the things I'm looking into is why
01:53:27 of the things I'm looking into is why there was undercover officer reporting on police monitoring campaigns. It's an important question which I'm going to attempt to try and answer. Okay. Thank you, Dr. Smith. I'd like to move on to Trevor
01:53:40 Dr. Smith. I'd like to move on to Trevor Morris. And in doing so, I wonder if we can put up on screen. So, it's at your tab BB4.
01:53:47 tab BB4. It is MPS0726965.
01:53:58 So this is I wonder if we can turn to the
01:54:03 the last page of this document first.
01:54:10 Wonder if we can just go back a page. So you can see that this is signed off by HN86.
01:54:18 by HN86. And if we go back to the second page, this is
01:54:25 this is Trevor Morris's targeting strategy. And if we look at the second paragraph, which I want to ask you about, says that the fringe community in Hackne
01:54:36 says that the fringe community in Hackne and Stoke Newington regularly becomes involved in issues which have an effect on the maintenance of public order, particularly involving squatting, anti-pole tax, and anti- police matters.
01:54:47 anti-pole tax, and anti- police matters. Whilst most of the latter are now past issues, DS Morris will for the immediate future be employed in monitoring the activities of local groups, eg the Hackne Community Defense Association and
01:55:00 Hackne Community Defense Association and the Hackne Solidarity Group. It is not envisaged, however, that he will commit himself to membership of any such organization uh but rather move from one to the other in order to assess their
01:55:12 to the other in order to assess their level of activity and potential involvement in future issues. What was your reaction upon reading that this undercover officer Trevor Morris's
01:55:23 undercover officer Trevor Morris's targeting uh strategy uh involved uh the uh monitoring the activities of the HCDA?
01:55:32 HCDA? Well, my first uh response uh uh was that uh
01:55:41 he had infiltrated HCDA
01:55:46 HCDA which there was no evidence. We have no evidence of because we had not been able to nobody uh was able to identify
01:55:58 to nobody uh was able to identify uh this person. nobody knew any of the names that he went by and so uh and so it just didn't happen. Uh but then uh uh
01:56:09 it just didn't happen. Uh but then uh uh on more careful reading I saw that really in the same way that uh subsequent to this that Mark Jenner uh in his tasking strategy it says that uh
01:56:21 in his tasking strategy it says that uh uh HCDA is not seen as worthy of particular interest. It's more of a vehicle
01:56:28 vehicle uh uh uh for an undercover officer to establish a reputation. I see exactly the same there. And I think this is there's a twofold uh
01:56:39 think this is there's a twofold uh problem with this. Firstly, the Metropolitan Police at no stage had any lawful reason for infiltrating
01:56:51 infiltrating or obtaining access to HCDA documents involving litigation which the Metropolitan Police Commissioner himself
01:57:03 Metropolitan Police Commissioner himself was a party to, was defending civil actions
01:57:07 actions uh uh brought by members of the public through HCDA uh arising from uh act the actions of officers under his direction and
01:57:18 officers under his direction and control. So that was my first point uh that uh uh uh the problem with this. The second really
01:57:30 in itself it undermines the legitimacy of that undercover officer activity. that the uh uh uh uh surveillance the reporting on
01:57:43 uh uh uh surveillance the reporting on that group is not necessary and is not pro proportionate to the uh aims uh of uh uh the Metropolitan Police in
01:57:54 uh uh the Metropolitan Police in preventing crime and disorder. Now I know this is uh prior to uh human rights act but nevertheless what we have this is the 1990s we've got developing case
01:58:05 is the 1990s we've got developing case law at the European court of human rights on the right to privacy and uh the Malone case and uh uh uh interception of communications that it's already known that uh uh uh of uh the uh
01:58:19 already known that uh uh uh of uh the uh unlawfulness of such surveillance before taking our midm Morning break. I'd like to ask you just about one further uh report submitted by HN78.
01:58:33 further uh report submitted by HN78. So it's at your tab B1. It is UCPI 33068.
01:58:45 So this is an event proformer. The date of it is the 11th of November 1993.
01:58:55 And it describes how uh in relation to a meeting
01:59:01 meeting uh the meeting entitled on the border of a police state focused on the subject of police accountability. The main speaker was Michael Mansfield QC and other
01:59:12 was Michael Mansfield QC and other speakers included Frank Critow, Mark Metaf and then this Graeham Snoo. Now this is the first mention of your name in intelligence
01:59:25 mention of your name in intelligence reports that that you have seen. Is that is that right? That's
01:59:30 That's I think disclosed reports. I think we have to uh uh that's the caveat really. It's the reports that have been disclosed. It's the first report that I've seen where there's a reference to
01:59:42 I've seen where there's a reference to me and uh an incomplete reference to me. And so this reference um Graeme surname unknown that's a reference to you. Yes. And we can see at the right at the
01:59:54 And we can see at the right at the bottom of the report we under your name Graham Snoo there's no RF number at this stage it referred it says mentions. Yes.
02:00:01 Yes. All right. Um so Graeme Sne of the HCDA and a representative of the PKK. The main thrust of the speeches uh was that the working class should challenge police powers through defense committees
02:00:13 police powers through defense committees like the HCDA and and the report goes on but it's as it's stated in the report itself focused on the subject of police accountability which is um a matter that
02:00:24 accountability which is um a matter that you have just addressed again just this last question before we take our midm morninging break. What was your reaction seeing your name when you first saw your name printed on uh an SDS undercover
02:00:38 name printed on uh an SDS undercover officer intelligence report? By this by the time I read this, I knew that uh a a registry file was opened on me in 1990.
02:00:51 me in 1990. I knew this because of evidence submitted disclosed uh to Celia Stubs and I had worked uh the uh inquiry had given me access to the uh internet uh
02:01:03 given me access to the uh internet uh and I helped uh uh Celia Stubs and her legal team prepare her evidence. So uh and I think uh uh the first report that
02:01:14 and I think uh uh the first report that I saw uh on Celia Stubs was also the first report which named me fully uh uh and which uh uh was in 2nd of May 1995.
02:01:28 and which uh uh was in 2nd of May 1995. I believe it was uh Mark Jenner report uh uh about Celia Stubs, primarily Stia Stubs and my relationship with her. Um,
02:01:40 Stubs and my relationship with her. Um, so
02:01:42 so I was shocked that there weren't reports on me before 1995
02:01:51 1995 and I identified this straight away as a report that uh uh uh referred to me uh but uh was incomplete and uh as I say in
02:02:03 but uh was incomplete and uh as I say in my opening statement, what other reports are there that haven't being disclosed. And I would uh hold that these are a particular type of report that are uh of
02:02:18 particular type of report that are uh of uh
02:02:20 uh embarrassment to the Metropolitan Police because they are reports that are only concerned with police accountability and that uh the Metropolitan Police had
02:02:34 and that uh the Metropolitan Police had been expressly told by the Home office in 1983
02:02:42 in 1983 not to target or report on police accountability campaigns as a consequence of dissemination of the special branch 1983 report that I've
02:02:56 special branch 1983 report that I've mentioned that uh conflated police accountability campaigns with political extremism and I'm uh concerned here and
02:03:07 extremism and I'm uh concerned here and when I read this report. I my immediate concern was where are the other reports on HCDA
02:03:15 on HCDA and I suspect that they would be very easy to uh if there is a there if there are HCDA files it would be very easy for them to go missing and they would be of
02:03:26 them to go missing and they would be of strategic importance to the Metropolitan Police in what has become what I would describe as a damage limitation exercise following revelations of undercover
02:03:38 following revelations of undercover police officer
02:03:41 Dr. Smith, um, thank you for that, um, answer, sir. I don't know whether that is a convenient moment to break. Certainly, I we've reached the time when the transcribers need a break. In any
02:03:53 the transcribers need a break. In any event, would you like the usual 15 minutes?
02:03:57 minutes? Yes, we'll break for 15 minutes.
02:24:23 Dr. Smith, I would like to ask you now about Mark Jenner. In doing so, wonder if we can bring up on screen Mark Jenner's statement. It's UCPI 35283.
02:24:36 Jenner's statement. It's UCPI 35283. I wonder if we could bring up page 41 of that statement. [Music]
02:24:49 As you can see there, Dr. Smith at the bottom of the page under the heading reporting on the Colin Roach Center aka HCDA
02:25:00 aka HCDA uh resistance. Uh just pausing there. Um what comment would you make in relation to Mr. Jenner's statement to this inquiry in relation to that heading uh
02:25:14 inquiry in relation to that heading uh putting in brackets aka HCDA after reference to the Colin Roach Center.
02:25:24 I'd call it disingenuous. Why?
02:25:29 In the tasking uh document, there is no mention of Colin Roach Center. There's only mention of Hackne Community Defense Association, HCDA,
02:25:43 Defense Association, HCDA, and there is mention of uh Mark Meov as a me as a member of HCDA. There's also mention of class war and a person uh uh
02:25:55 mention of class war and a person uh uh associated or uh alleging association with class war. I say it's disingenuous because that
02:26:06 I say it's disingenuous because that targeting strategy is quite clearly targeted against HCDA and it is quite clearly targeted against policing activities and there's a form
02:26:18 policing activities and there's a form of you words used to describe that policing activity including unlawful arrests and it's uh in the way the use of words
02:26:32 and it's uh in the way the use of words implies knowledge of what type of work HCDA was doing and that it was involved in police litigation. So I say it's uh disingenuous because uh
02:26:45 So I say it's uh disingenuous because uh what uh
02:26:48 what uh Mark Jenner goes on to explain is that uh he can't understand why that document's written the way it is because he was tasked solely with uh
02:27:01 because he was tasked solely with uh getting as close as possible to Mark Meov.
02:27:06 Meov. Well, let let's turn um to that targeting strategy before I ask you about the meeting because you have mentioned it. I wonder. So, it is tab
02:27:17 mentioned it. I wonder. So, it is tab B16 in Colin Roach Center bundle. It's MPS 0735326 please.
02:27:31 So you can see Mark Jenner's targeting strategy and in relation to what you have just been referring to I wonder if we could turn to the second page please because as you have referred to
02:27:43 because as you have referred to paragraph 2.3
02:27:48 and this is under the heading nature of the target within the Lond of Hackne DC Jenner's intended target base a diverse collection of anarchists operate across a range of political activities leading
02:28:00 a range of political activities leading figures such such as Norman Blair, London Class War and Mark Metaf, Hackne Community Defense Association, HCDA are often involved in coordination of opposition to Hackne Council, housing
02:28:12 opposition to Hackne Council, housing environment and education policy, government policy, criminal justice act, immigration matters, etc. Local racist activity, campaigns by British National Party, BNP, etc. and local police. And
02:28:25 Party, BNP, etc. and local police. And then this allegations of harassment, racism, wrongful arrest, etc. Depending on circumstances, such opposition may be vocal or or violent.
02:28:37 vocal or or violent. And so is this what you were referring to a moment ago about reference in the targeting strategy for example to wrongful arrest? Yes, I think it is quite clear the form of words there uh
02:28:50 quite clear the form of words there uh uh uh used to describe uh the uh local police activities that uh the Metropolitan Police SDS were very much
02:29:01 Metropolitan Police SDS were very much aware of what HCDA was and what HCDA did before
02:29:06 before wrongful arrest is I would say has legal connotations in that as well. Before leaving this document, I wonder if we could just look at one further paragraph
02:29:17 could just look at one further paragraph on page four. It's paragraph 3.3. Another reference to HCDA here. So 3.3 as indicated London class war and the hackne community defense association
02:29:29 hackne community defense association hcda are probably not worthy of monitoring in terms of their own importance but both are assessed to be suitable vehicles for an undercover
02:29:40 suitable vehicles for an undercover officer establishing an anarchist reputation. Can I just have your comment on? Well, as as I mentioned earlier in regard uh to the tasking of uh um DS
02:29:52 regard uh to the tasking of uh um DS Morris
02:29:53 Morris HN78,
02:29:55 HN78, this in itself is uh evidence of the unlawfulness of that targeting strategy to use somebody as a vehicle for establishing an reputation is not necessary or proportionate uh uh
02:30:07 necessary or proportionate uh uh surveillance. I wonder if we can now go back to that part of Mark Jenner's statement that we were looking at. So this is UCPI 35283
02:30:20 were looking at. So this is UCPI 35283 and we were looking at paragraph 86 which is on page 41
02:30:29 and it'll come up on screen again in a moment. But he is describing here uh
02:30:40 We'll just wait for it to appear on the screen. So that's 35283.
02:30:51 So here he's describing uh how he first approached Mart who was in a bookstore and spoke with him.
02:31:02 him. Could you um help us with that first time that you uh met Mark Jenner?
02:31:16 Can I first of all say this? This to me is a a very significant event. It was significant certainly to uh uh u
02:31:28 It was significant certainly to uh uh u John Burke Monville and his family. It was the first anniversary of uh Trevor's murder and uh we laid wreaths at the point uh uh uh where Trevor
02:31:43 point uh uh uh where Trevor was found
02:31:45 was found after having been stabbed and also a wreath uh uh laid at Stone Newington police station in uh in memory of those that had suffered and died uh at the
02:31:56 that had suffered and died uh at the hands of the police in Hackne and Stone Newington. That was in the uh early evening, late afternoon, early evening. And then that
02:32:07 afternoon, early evening. And then that was followed by a memorial lecture uh
02:32:15 uh the Trevor Monival memorial lecture at which which I chaired. Annette Monival spoke and a prominent solicitor also spoke.
02:32:32 And in his witness statement, Mark Jenner
02:32:37 Jenner reveals that that's how he introduced himself. It was an HCDA event. It was advertised as an HCDA event and he
02:32:48 advertised as an HCDA event and he attended uh knowing he must have attended knowing it was an HCDA event.
02:32:57 Yet in his first report which is the I think it's the 2nd of May uh uh
02:33:08 of May uh uh belies the fact that there's no report been disclosed on this event which he attended and my understanding is uh that
02:33:19 attended and my understanding is uh that uh undercover officers reported on events that they attended. I think this was such a significant event. It's it's extremely unlikely that there
02:33:30 it's extremely unlikely that there wouldn't been a report submitted on it particularly given
02:33:37 given um uh the reporting the nature of the reporting which is to show handlers how good the undercover officers were on reporting on the
02:33:50 officers were on reporting on the activities of their target groups. So I would like to know and I think it's also important for John Burke Monville and family to know where is the report of uh
02:34:02 family to know where is the report of uh of uh this uh uh commemoration and memorial lecture that on his own admission Mark Jenner attended.
02:34:14 attended. May I ask you in relation to uh this event did did you speak to Mark Jenner on this occasion? No, I I I was uh uh I met first met Mark Jenner uh soon after
02:34:28 met first met Mark Jenner uh soon after at this event and um it would have been at the Colin Ro Center, but it would have it would have been one of the the rare occasions that
02:34:41 been one of the the rare occasions that uh I actually attended I I visited the Colin Roach Center. Now um my own re recollections of the Colin Road Center are at 10A Bradbury suite
02:34:53 are at 10A Bradbury suite and uh I I don't remember ever going to uh the Clarence Road after it moved. I know I didn't participate in the moving
02:35:04 know I didn't participate in the moving to uh Colin Roach uh to Clarence uh road but uh this was um Mark Jenner introduced himself at an
02:35:15 Mark Jenner introduced himself at an HCDA event which the last HCDA HCDA event that I was involved in organizing and I'd started withdrawing from uh HCDA
02:35:26 and I'd started withdrawing from uh HCDA and Colin Rope center activities prior to that in preparation ation for the inquiry. I've looked back through uh my own documents and it's quite apparent
02:35:38 own documents and it's quite apparent that HCDA was at its peak in 1992 and 1993
02:35:43 1993 up until the beginning of uh 1994 and I was turning my work to other things. I'd uh worked with a solicitor
02:35:55 things. I'd uh worked with a solicitor and uh computer programmer to set up a database on police officers called defendants information services and I was also uh uh inquiring beginning to
02:36:06 was also uh uh inquiring beginning to inquire into doing a PhD. Uh I felt uh uh HCDA throughout it existence it was hand-to-mouth.
02:36:17 hand-to-mouth. It was very few individuals, no funding whatsoever and it was exhausting work and I felt that I could no longer continue in the same way that
02:36:30 no longer continue in the same way that I had. You you've described how you had already begun to withdraw from HCDA before
02:36:37 before Jenner was deployed but when he was deployed during his deployment could you help us with how much interaction you had with him over that period
02:36:49 over that period very little I'm I think I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to say uh uh how many times I saw him uh in I I do remember one meeting
02:37:02 do remember one meeting and that would have been soon after he uh uh uh joined the center. I don't know if he did join the center. I don't you know Mark Meov dealt with membership of the center. The Colin Roach Center was
02:37:15 the center. The Colin Roach Center was very much Mark Meetoff to the four. I was too busy doing HCDA work and to me the Colin Roach Center was always a facility. It was a workplace. it was a
02:37:28 facility. It was a workplace. it was a center where we could meet and it there wasn't anything beyond that. So, uh I attend I recall him at one meeting and uh and I took an instant dislike to
02:37:42 and uh and I took an instant dislike to Why did you take an instant dislike? because uh he was of a character that I was familiar with and I would associate it with red action characters,
02:37:54 it with red action characters, people that uh I did not have the utmost respect for. And I would say that rather than uh it was what I often call uh uh
02:38:06 than uh it was what I often call uh uh tablethumping politics rather than informed politics of people arguing uh and engaging in rational discussion and uh he was of that he was aggressive and
02:38:19 uh he was of that he was aggressive and uh very confident he I would I'd say he certainly hit the ground running in joining HCDA because in my view he was uh seeking to influence things right
02:38:31 uh seeking to influence things right from the very beginning in terms of you describe him as aggressive but are you able to assist us in any way in relation to for example uh whether he was violent or the extent to
02:38:43 whether he was violent or the extent to which he participated in public disorder outside
02:38:47 outside no no his demeanor and uh and his behavior in meetings he at that first meeting I recall he was very confident
02:38:58 meeting I recall he was very confident idence and uh there were people at that meeting who had 20 years experience in community politics in Hacknne and he was quite willing to uh uh uh argue uh
02:39:12 quite willing to uh uh uh argue uh vehemently against them and this was right from the outset and uh I think um although I wasn't really attending meetings
02:39:22 meetings uh a very close friend of mine who was a member of the Labour party told me that uh uh Mark Jenner had given an ultimatum to people that they were either in the
02:39:33 to people that they were either in the center or in the Labor Party. There wasn't space for Labor Party members. So he chose the Labour Party and uh and I was very disturbed by this cuz this person uh I'd
02:39:46 disturbed by this cuz this person uh I'd worked with for 5 years or so and he had um uh uh helped me greatly and helped HCDA uh greatly because he worked in the House of Commons for a a press officer
02:39:59 House of Commons for a a press officer and all the police policing reports that the uh uh the press office discarded he gave to me. And so he was and and he you know, and and I was very upset uh
02:40:12 you know, and and I was very upset uh that uh uh he had withdrawn. I'd like to ask you about a particular campaign that you were closely involved in, the Malcolm Kennedy campaign. I wonder if you can
02:40:24 I wonder if you can describe the nature of that campaign and then Mark Jenner's connection or interaction with Malcolm Kennedy, please. Well, we were aware when uh
02:40:35 please. Well, we were aware when uh Malcolm Kennedy was convicted uh uh of uh uh of uh Patrick Quinn's murder and I think it would have been in
02:40:46 murder and I think it would have been in Janu
02:40:50 was it January 91 or 92 because we had a trial going on which a very prominent uh trial which was one of uh uh uh uh the
02:41:01 trial which was one of uh uh uh uh the criminal of trials which established our reputation of uh uh two men in Hawkton that had been charged with GBH and ABH
02:41:12 that had been charged with GBH and ABH against the police and we'd been attending that trial uh uh HCDA members and there was a lot of publicity around that trial when they were all acquitted
02:41:23 that trial when they were all acquitted and uh uh but uh um the uh verdict of uh Malcolm Kennedy's
02:41:33 trial was in this period and I recall a member of HCDA going along because we were aware he was from Stoke Newington although it was a Hammersmith and Fulham case he was from Stoke Newington and we
02:41:45 case he was from Stoke Newington and we would support him uh and uh we kept in touch with what had happened but it wasn't until some years after that and that uh Malcolm Kennedy
02:41:57 after that and that uh Malcolm Kennedy wrote to HCDA from prison asking for our help. And I uh and Cecilia Stubs would go and visit Malcolm
02:42:08 Cecilia Stubs would go and visit Malcolm Kennedy in prison. And uh we supported him from then on. uh uh and uh certainly when he was uh released after his uh
02:42:21 when he was uh released after his uh conviction was uh quashed and retrial ordered, we worked very closely with him and I started uh I interviewed him and started investigating uh his case. So
02:42:35 started investigating uh his case. So this would have been in uh 1939 94 and it's also one of the reasons in in supporting him I wrote a pamphlet
02:42:46 in supporting him I wrote a pamphlet uh uh who who killed Patrick in uh uh free Malcolm Kennedy or something like that the title of it and I was very pleased with uh the uh uh content of the
02:42:58 pleased with uh the uh uh content of the pamphlet the statistics that I used in that uh and the analysis that I developed in that it was all persuading me that I could do more in a different
02:43:10 me that I could do more in a different uh environment uh to tackle the problem of uh police crime and accountability. So at that time that would that pamphlet
02:43:21 So at that time that would that pamphlet was be published in December 1994. It was launched at the House of Commons at a press conference. Uh, and the campaign
02:43:34 Uh, and the campaign uh uh in support of Malcolm was set up after he was convicted of the manslaughter of Patrick Quinn after a jury was unable to agree a verdict of uh
02:43:48 jury was unable to agree a verdict of uh murder. Could you help us with in due course from your perspective uh Mark Jenner's interaction uh with Malcolm Kennedy? Well, I'm not attending uh uh Conro
02:44:03 Well, I'm not attending uh uh Conro Center meetings at this time. Uh um I knew,
02:44:10 knew, you know, I would see Malcolm, I would talk to to Malcolm. I continued to visit him in prison uh after his conviction. So, uh, and, uh, it wasn't until we
02:44:22 So, uh, and, uh, it wasn't until we discovered that, uh, Mark Jenner was an undercover police officer that Malcolm shared with me, that, uh, when he was first released from his sentence and
02:44:36 first released from his sentence and staying in a bale hostel, I think in Islington somewhere, um, that, uh, uh, Mark Jenner would always give him a lift home from uh, meetings and that would
02:44:48 home from uh, meetings and that would engage him in conversation about his case.
02:44:54 I'd like to turn to a report that you've already referred to in your evidence. It's Mark Jenner's intelligence report of the 2nd of May 1995. Please sir, is
02:45:05 of the 2nd of May 1995. Please sir, is it your tab B2? It's MPS 074049.
02:45:19 And if we turn to the second page of this please.
02:45:26 Um we can see if we just look at the bottom. In fact there is the RF number applied to your name RF 402901
02:45:39 applied to your name RF 402901 in this report. And
02:45:43 And if we look at the title or the organization referred to Colin Roach Center and then this formally the Hackne
02:45:54 Center and then this formally the Hackne Community Defense Association. So, so that error that mistake of conflating the Colin Roach Center with HCDA uh set out here in this report. Yes.
02:46:06 uh set out here in this report. Yes. Yes. And I think it's significant that this is his first report that's been disclosed. Now I I suspect there may be another one on the event as I've said uh where and uh I also understand uh just for the
02:46:19 uh I also understand uh just for the record that uh Mark Jenner was introduced to uh John Burke Monl at that uh uh memorial lecture uh uh uh when he introduced himself.
02:46:32 introduced himself. So this is the first report really. I think it was quite clear to uh uh it would have been quite clear to uh Mark Jenner that HCDA uh was in demise and uh that uh I think
02:46:46 uh was in demise and uh that uh I think uh uh therefore it was convenient to refer to the uh Colin Roach Center as uh formerly the Hackne Community Defense Association in that manner.
02:46:59 Association in that manner. And we can see the the body of the report um the focus is on Celia Stubs but referring to the fact that she was a regular contributor to advice sessions
02:47:10 regular contributor to advice sessions at the Coen Roach Center where her experience of community politics and criminal law are much valued by Mark Mark Metaf and Graeme Smith yourself. Is that reference at least
02:47:24 yourself. Is that reference at least accurate in terms of Well, it certainly it's not uh uh uh false, but as I say, I had very little contact
02:47:35 contact uh with Mark Jenner, and I would I would presume he was not aware of my relationship with Celia Stubs.
02:47:47 I'd like to turn now to a particular report of HN15 Mark uh Jenner. Can I just say this is
02:48:00 Mark uh Jenner. Can I just say this is also the the report I was right it is 2nd of May that it's a very significant report in that because again I comment that he hit the ground running in the
02:48:13 that he hit the ground running in the collie road center but also it would appear that uh I was a target right from the outset uh uh in in his
02:48:24 right from the outset uh uh in in his reporting
02:48:25 reporting reporting
02:48:26 reporting because it's this is the first report he's that has been disclosed and I'm one and I think three or four of his first half a dozen reports I'm one of the
02:48:38 half a dozen reports I'm one of the named persons and in his witness statement he said he would have done this on the understanding that special branch would want my file kept up to date
02:48:49 date why would he know special branch had a file on me or what is the significance what's behind this that uh it's difficult to understand without
02:49:02 difficult to understand without believing that there were more reports on me that he had access to which he would have uh accessed when he was doing research in the three or four months
02:49:13 research in the three or four months prior to his deployment in the field. In terms of you being a target, we've looked at a number of reports already and they refer uh to um various uh
02:49:25 and they refer uh to um various uh meetings. Um but I would like to ask you about a report uh that refers to personal matters about you and this is MPS245186.
02:49:36 So it is your tab uh B6.
02:49:45 So here 13th of June 1995 one of these nominal upto-date and information proformers. your name there, organization, Colin Roach Center. And
02:49:56 organization, Colin Roach Center. And then this, Graeme Smith, the anarchist and civil liberties activist, has decided to withdraw from participation
02:50:07 decided to withdraw from participation in the Colin Roach Center for the time being. Smith is faced with personal problems. His father is terminally ill with cancer and his aranged wife is
02:50:19 with cancer and his aranged wife is threatening divorce. to keep his hand in. Smith will spend his time producing leaflets at home on his computer and making himself available for advice on
02:50:30 making himself available for advice on anti- police matters. What was your reaction when you first read this report, please? Well, it's firstly it's inaccurate. My I
02:50:43 Well, it's firstly it's inaccurate. My I wasn't estranged from my wife and she wasn't threatening divorce. My father was terminally ill with cancer and he died on the 31st of July 1995.
02:50:56 and he died on the 31st of July 1995. My mother-in-law also uh died uh from cancer in January of that year. So it was it is correct uh that it was a
02:51:08 was it is correct uh that it was a difficult year uh for me for personal problems. But this has got nothing to do with uh what with the Metropolitan Police and has got nothing to do with
02:51:19 Police and has got nothing to do with Mark Jenner. And uh uh I know that in his witness statement he would have got this from me. Uh I think that's quite difficult to believe. I would not tell him that uh my
02:51:32 believe. I would not tell him that uh my estrange wife was uh threatening me with with divorce if that was not the case. uh uh and uh uh I assume this is a report that's uh based on uh uh things
02:51:45 report that's uh based on uh uh things that have been said in the Colin Roach Center by other people. It's certainly I wasn't the source uh for this or if if uh it was based on something or
02:51:56 or if if uh it was based on something or conversation with me, it's certainly an exaggeration uh uh uh uh uh of what was happening.
02:52:07 happening. going to ask if we can turn to another of Mark Jenner's reports. So it's at your tab B9. It's MPS 024536 please. So
02:52:19 please. So can I just say on that also the anarchist activist it's just again it's it's part of this labeling that started with Bob Lambert was maintained through
02:52:30 with Bob Lambert was maintained through Bob Lambert's uh tasking strategy document and Mark Jenner has maintained it.
02:52:40 In this report that we have on screen, I'd like to focus on what's contained in paragraph 4.
02:52:50 So the second sentence, Graeme Smith in particular would be torn between his respect for metaf and his regard for stubs and privacy. Stubs and privacy are responsible for free legal advice sessions run at the CRC in conjunction
02:53:03 sessions run at the CRC in conjunction with Burnber and Co. and for the Defense Information Service. The DIS is a database available for a fee to lawyers. It lists the details of police officers
02:53:15 It lists the details of police officers who have been reported or convicted of criminal or disciplinary offenses or who have been the subject of complaints. The disent
02:53:24 disent source of income for the CRC. Now, could you just explain to us please what the defense information service was?
02:53:37 defense information service was? Right. Um
02:53:40 Right. Um I think this is the most important aspect of this. Do you want me to also say about uh uh this uh uh divisions that are referred to uh between myself
02:53:51 that are referred to uh between myself and uh Mark Meov uh and resistance prior to that because uh yes um by this time I I was inactive and I
02:54:02 um by this time I I was inactive and I really handed over to others. It wasn't for me to actually uh intervene in what was happening anymore. I wasn't going to be doing any work. It was not it was it
02:54:14 be doing any work. It was not it was it was not open to me to uh uh uh uh uh engage in that debate or have any say in in what was happening there. Um
02:54:25 in what was happening there. Um and uh for the record the discussion about setting up resistance I think may have t started in 1994
02:54:36 I think may have t started in 1994 and it's an example of again of how long it takes through discussions uh in order to launch anything new and there were lots of differences opinion and at the
02:54:48 lots of differences opinion and at the outset and I may have been the person that proposed setting up an organization with the name of resistance because HCDA could not continue as it
02:55:00 because HCDA could not continue as it was. So if there was going, it was looking for something uh uh uh uh that would be attractive to more people that would be able to do work in the community. And uh and I think it was
02:55:14 community. And uh and I think it was that those prolonged arguments really uh in regard to developing uh uh um what had been set up developed
02:55:25 uh uh um what had been set up developed by HCDA and the Colin Ro Center that was a reason for my withdrawal. I didn't have the energy that I did have five years earlier in setting up HCDA and
02:55:38 years earlier in setting up HCDA and also I'd moved on and uh and uh that uh uh I felt I could achieve more in terms of uh my aims and objectives in challenging police uh unaccountable
02:55:51 challenging police uh unaccountable policing that uh there was there was another domain in which my uh uh uh knowledge and experiences could be put to better l use. So I this this whole
02:56:02 to better l use. So I this this whole thing about resistance uh and uh the reporting on it I think is uh a a lot of it is false and it's attributing to resistance
02:56:13 resistance uh um a I don't know sort of uh this threat to the state or something that never was and I think again this is the
02:56:24 never was and I think again this is the selfserving nature of uh uh undercover police reporting of uh something that really is uh is not more much more than people discussing uh uh uh how to do
02:56:36 people discussing uh uh uh how to do their politics. And in this this report, the same paragraph again moving to the defendants's information service essentially it's two matters. What was it and what is your reaction to seeing
02:56:48 it and what is your reaction to seeing reference to it in a report? Well, the first so so that's resistance. So it's really quite connected because at the same time as the these discussions about developing uh uh uh
02:56:59 discussions about developing uh uh uh the activities in the center to be more representative of community needs really is keeping a breast of what's going on in the community. I had started to
02:57:11 in the community. I had started to develop uh and it was on the uh we haven't talked about uh uh the uh uh operation jackpot scandal of uh uh allegations of drug dealing by Stoke
02:57:23 allegations of drug dealing by Stoke Newington officers. But this uh is something that uh really uh uh it overwhelmed HCDA in some respects and it also gave sense to what HCDA uh uh uh
02:57:37 also gave sense to what HCDA uh uh uh was doing in the previous years and rather than seeing all these incidents of uh police criminality as isolated one-off incidents it's g that showed
02:57:49 one-off incidents it's g that showed that there was a pattern of behavior in policing in Hackniv in Hacknne where there was a corrupt group of some dozen police officers that were involved in
02:58:00 police officers that were involved in drug dealing in the community. Uh and uh the uh uh Guardian uh I I met uh the Guardian crimes correspondent in
02:58:12 uh the Guardian crimes correspondent in uh December 1991. This was the month after we'd uh uh had the meeting with the Royal Commission on Criminal Justice and our report had been forwarded to the uh Metropolitan Police
02:58:25 forwarded to the uh Metropolitan Police Commissioner and I gave information to the uh Guardian about drugs cases that HCDA was working on. January 1992,
02:58:39 HCDA was working on. January 1992, The Guardian ran a front page article in which the only two persons named uh were the head of uh the uh Metropolitan
02:58:51 the head of uh the uh Metropolitan Police Operation Jackpot uh anti-corruption investigation and myself as a secretary of uh Hanky Community Defense Association. And there was reference to the two of the HCDA cases
02:59:04 reference to the two of the HCDA cases that I shared with the Guardian. What happened after that uh uh press uh that uh Guardian article, we uh did a press conference where the names of 31 I think
02:59:18 conference where the names of 31 I think I believe police officers were named uh uh uh uh as having been involved uh in the incidents in the community.
02:59:29 the incidents in the community. HCDA meetings uh which had been maybe a dozen 15 were suddenly 30 strong with people coming forward making allegations
02:59:40 people coming forward making allegations against uh uh uh Stoke Newington drug squad officers and very quickly we embarked on a complex uh investigation cross referencing all these cases and I
02:59:53 cross referencing all these cases and I I can't remember the exact number of officers involved but we set up a card index
02:59:59 index uh uh to cross reference. And we also uh was shared with us uh was uh uh Crane Prosecution Service uh uh uh uh
03:00:11 Prosecution Service uh uh uh uh spreadsheet of officers and cases uh at Stoke Newington. So this our card index uh uh and uh I can't
03:00:23 this our card index uh uh and uh I can't claim credit uh for the idea. somebody much cleverer than I said we could use this we could develop a database out of this.
03:00:33 this. I was going to ask what was the proximity in time to the defendants information service being set up and Mark Jenner appearing on the scene help us with that
03:00:45 again it took up it took quite a while to to get this database designed and then also inputting data on it from these card indexes. So I think uh the
03:00:56 these card indexes. So I think uh the the lead time for it would have been several months if not up to a year. But my recollection and I handed over all of the documents regarding uh uh defendants
03:01:08 the documents regarding uh uh defendants information services uh when I stopped uh working on it. Um uh that was about the time I completed my PhD. But uh my recollection is that it was August
03:01:22 recollection is that it was August that an application was made to the data protection registar uh under uh uh as a legal requirement to register uh the database and I think the first report uh
03:01:35 database and I think the first report uh uh request for a report came to us from uh lawyers uh and that what we what uh defendants information service did was provide
03:01:46 information service did was provide reports reports on named officers uh uh who uh uh that whose evidence was uh uh uh determined to uh uh not to be
03:01:59 uh determined to uh uh not to be credible. uh and uh if there were other cases on the database uh uh involving that officer, we would share the details, the mere the me details of the
03:02:12 details, the mere the me details of the case and including uh a reference to the solicitor acting uh in the case to their files. So it was a it was bas the the
03:02:23 files. So it was a it was bas the the the database uh provided a solicitor to solicitor service. So the the report and we still have that paragraph on the screen refers to charging a fee. Uh
03:02:35 screen refers to charging a fee. Uh that's accurate that you really obviously different language would be used but uh that was an accurate report of defendants information. Uh uh uh the
03:02:47 of defendants information. Uh uh uh the the uh the penultimate no the third from last and penultimate sentences are accurate. the dis is an important source of income for the CRC is false.
03:03:00 of income for the CRC is false. Now we there's other reporting in terms of money. We didn't turn it up but just as an example. So can can I just go back to your initial
03:03:11 can can I just go back to your initial question?
03:03:12 question? Yes.
03:03:13 Yes. Which was uh uh uh Jenna coming in and uh launch of dis. This was August that uh uh uh dis started.
03:03:25 uh uh uh dis started. Um
03:03:30 there was a breakin at the uh Colin Roach Center December 22nd. Could you explain what was unusual about that spring? Nothing was stolen. Well, there were two
03:03:41 Nothing was stolen. Well, there were two things about it that were particular. This was a time when my mother-in-law was dying and I'd withdrawn from uh uh my activities and uh uh so I wasn't
03:03:53 my activities and uh uh so I wasn't present
03:03:55 present uh and uh I learned I think it was Mark Meov who told me about uh uh uh the breakin and uh that nothing was stolen
03:04:06 breakin and uh that nothing was stolen of uh any value. I think uh I think money uh had actually been left untouched. It was in a jar and uh that uh some uh computer equipment was
03:04:18 uh some uh computer equipment was damaged. Uh and also uh bad luck matey had been scrolled in large letters along one of the walls and bad luck matey. I
03:04:30 one of the walls and bad luck matey. I know you know Mark's talked about his friends in the army but uh I was brought up in the army and this is the sort of phrase that you associate with uh uh you know matey is an expression uh that uh
03:04:43 know matey is an expression uh that uh uh you not many people would use but it's something that's uh familiar in those uh environments in my mind and uh uh the I know that other people felt
03:04:55 uh the I know that other people felt well actually uh Mark Meov knowing that I you know got what I was going through. He actually asked me if I did it, which I thought, you know, they were trying to
03:05:06 I thought, you know, they were trying to understand what who would actually do this. And he thought I might I don't know what he thought, but I just thought it was such a crazy suggestion uh uh that I who was absent at that time uh
03:05:18 that I who was absent at that time uh might do such a thing. But uh I think that the the feeling among people in the center at that time was that it was special branch that were looking for the database which wasn't kept there.
03:05:31 database which wasn't kept there. I'd like to move to just give a few more examples of Mark Jenner's reporting for your comments on the next. So it's at your tab B10. It's MPS 0245835
03:05:44 your tab B10. It's MPS 0245835 please.
03:05:55 So here we can see this report nominal upto-date and information performer on you. The first paragraph states that you have not joined the Colin Roach cent's
03:06:08 have not joined the Colin Roach cent's political group resistance but has continued to follow his own agenda working within the community against the police. He is no longer involved in running the Colin Roach Center. Smith
03:06:20 running the Colin Roach Center. Smith helps people with grievances against the police and one grateful client presented him with a brand new motorcycle and winning some 70,000 compensation from the commissioner. So
03:06:32 compensation from the commissioner. So when we are looking at the accuracy of Mark Jenner's reporting, could you just help us with the accuracy of what is set out there, please?
03:06:43 out there, please? Well, I I wasn't involved in setting up resistance. Um when is this? So this report is dated the 12th of January 96. I
03:06:56 enrolled at University College London in October September October 1995 to do a PhD.
03:07:08 to do a PhD. Um I was doing it part-time uh and working for Camden Dialeride part-time.
03:07:18 By this time, I would have been I think I used to go for a a swim every morning at uh 7 or 8:00. I'd cycle into uh uh uh
03:07:31 at uh 7 or 8:00. I'd cycle into uh uh uh UCL. I'd go for a swim. I'd go in the uh British Library of Political Science for 9:00 when it opened. uh uh on days that I wasn't working and I would leave at
03:07:43 I wasn't working and I would leave at 11:00 at night. I would spend the whole time in the library and then I would come home and type up. We didn't have uh uh uh laptops in uh we used to use uh uh
03:07:55 uh uh laptops in uh we used to use uh uh do everything handwritten in those days. My time was totally consumed with my PhD. I completed my PhD in two years.
03:08:06 PhD. I completed my PhD in two years. So I had no time for anything else. So in terms of me doing other work, uh uh it's false.
03:08:17 it's false. Uh
03:08:18 Uh did someone give you a brand new? No. Coming on to that, this is a lie. This has never happened. Uh and uh uh I I think it's only there to try and discredit me at a time when I'm no
03:08:31 discredit me at a time when I'm no longer even active in the community. And I I would also say that I the work that I was doing in developing h a knowledge
03:08:44 I was doing in developing h a knowledge on police accountability that is undermining the credibility of my work that was to follow after my activities uh in the HCDA.
03:08:56 I I'd like to turn to another of Mark Jenner's reports which refers to a second RF number for you just so that cover that it is sir at your tab B1 it
03:09:08 cover that it is sir at your tab B1 it is 0245879 NPS 0245879 please.
03:09:20 So if we see there the RF uh numbers under associates on the first page towards the bottom. So that's the second RF number
03:09:31 RF number that's provided to you there. Um if we look at page two of the report
03:09:39 report um referring to um someone we've redacted for privacy. It states that while he is a respected street activist,
03:09:50 while he is a respected street activist, he is politically weak and is easily dominated by the more militant forceful characters involved in the CRC. He recently threatened to resign from the resistance group because he thought it
03:10:02 resistance group because he thought it was becoming too militant and turning away from its community base in Hackne to become involved in issues uh throughout uh the uh burough. And so
03:10:13 throughout uh the uh burough. And so would you have had any uh knowledge of this please?
03:10:20 No, I think I've got a pretty good knowledge of everything that's been disclosed to me and this appears to me as something that I haven't registered before or um but it seems to be the
03:10:32 before or um but it seems to be the person that I've referred to already that was in the Labor Party. It seemed it's uh um and this is a person that uh Mark Jenner
03:10:43 and this is a person that uh Mark Jenner chased out of the center. That's how it reads to me
03:10:54 in relation to this point of and it was it was as a result of the ultimatum
03:10:59 ultimatum given that uh uh there was no room for members of the Labor Party.
03:11:07 I I want to explore just a little further this description you give of Mark Jenner being aggressive in meetings because you refer to it in your witness statement. I wonder if you could turn to your witness statement, please. It's
03:11:18 your witness statement, please. It's paragraph 100 on page 38.
03:11:40 one that's coming up. Can I just ask because I think one of my um registry files is uses the code 402 and one uses
03:11:51 files is uses the code 402 and one uses the code 405. Is that indicative of anything? Uh something that I've missed or is is anybody able to help me with that?
03:12:05 Mr. uh uh Dr. Smith, it's a matter that um we are exploring. Okay.
03:12:11 Okay. Um but
03:12:12 Um but it's an unknown unknown or it's a known unknown. Is it the uh evidence that we've referred to indicates though that you have two separate RF numbers and we can see those on the reports.
03:12:23 on the reports. Yeah.
03:12:24 Yeah. I just want to look at in terms of what you set out in the statement here. So you say I've been asked what effect did the presence of Mark Jenner have in my life. HCDA Mark Jenner's presence did
03:12:35 life. HCDA Mark Jenner's presence did not have an effect on HCDA. Is probable that his aggressive and confrontational behavior at the meetings I attended where he was present helped confirm that my decision to withdraw from the CRC was
03:12:47 my decision to withdraw from the CRC was the correct one. And I just want to explore with you the significance of Mark Jenner in your in your decision to step back. I I think it's exactly as I
03:12:58 step back. I I think it's exactly as I say there. I'd was already moving on to other um
03:13:06 other um activities with defendants information service, writing the pamphlet and uh um and looking inquiring into the possibilities
03:13:17 looking inquiring into the possibilities of doing a PhD. Uh and I felt very bad about withdrawing from the colonote center and HCDA. I think
03:13:29 the colonote center and HCDA. I think HCDA was uh probably,
03:13:34 you know, there was people in HCDA that still did work on policing after I left and that work continued. Uh but I felt very guilty uh to
03:13:46 Uh but I felt very guilty uh to abandoning Mark. Uh to this day I feel I let him down by withdrawing that uh uh and u I think yesterday you heard in evidence from Mark that uh uh um
03:14:01 evidence from Mark that uh uh um whereas that H the the profile of the Colin Roach Center was very much to do with HDDA. It was HDA's work that created that profile. I think it was
03:14:13 created that profile. I think it was Mark's interactions with trade unionists and other people that brought people into the center and uh and that the side that I was contributing it just stopped
03:14:26 that I was contributing it just stopped for them and I felt very guilty uh about uh uh uh abandoning Mark at that at that time. But it was I think what uh and I
03:14:38 time. But it was I think what uh and I obviously I've read uh uh Mark Jenner's witness statement and I think it may have been that he was getting as close to Mark as possible but I don't I I
03:14:49 to Mark as possible but I don't I I don't think he had much of a an understanding of Mark Metaf because one thing Mark enjoyed more than anything was a good argument and uh and I think Jenner didn't have to
03:15:02 and uh and I think Jenner didn't have to if he was trying to show Mark how much he supported him. He didn't have to be aggressive or confront confrontational in supporting what Mark Meet was seeking
03:15:14 in supporting what Mark Meet was seeking to achieve yesterday when Mark Metaf described his own guilt or regret in relation to Allison and not not doing
03:15:25 relation to Allison and not not doing anything to stop that. Can I just ask you about Allison? What interaction did you have with with Allison during this period of time? Well,
03:15:36 Well, I all my work was HCDA and uh I knew Allison. I knew Allison from Colin Roach Center meetings which uh I think Allison had probably been there uh uh for uh
03:15:49 had probably been there uh uh for uh about a year uh before uh Mark Jenner arrived on the scene. uh at social events uh I you know where we would also uh talk uh and uh also uh the uh uh her
03:16:04 uh talk uh and uh also uh the uh uh her close friend uh uh and uh uh her close friend's partner I I would socialize with them I would know them uh and uh uh
03:16:15 with them I would know them uh and uh uh I had respect for her in what she was doing but she didn't really involve herself in uh the police accountability work uh that we were doing. So from your perspective looking back
03:16:28 So from your perspective looking back now, what do you remember of the interaction between Allison and Mark Jenner?
03:16:34 Jenner? Well, I recall quite quite soon after his appearance that they were together. You know, I obviously I'm not uh aware of much more than that that uh they they
03:16:47 of much more than that that uh they they seemed a couple within within weeks of uh uh uh his uh arrival. I'm not attending meetings, so it's not something that's uh uh uh uh on on my uh
03:17:00 something that's uh uh uh uh on on my uh uh radar so much. But I also remember the four of them uh uh seem to be very much uh uh together that they probably,
03:17:12 much uh uh together that they probably, you know, shared each other's interests. They probably did things together and that uh so but very very soon uh uh I understood them to be uh uh uh together
03:17:25 understood them to be uh uh uh together a couple
03:17:26 a couple at the time. Did you ever suspect anything of Mark J? No, not at all. I I I thought I thought that he was really I would describe him
03:17:38 that he was really I would describe him as a red action type that who's really I wasn't interested in having anything to do with it and I was withdrawing and uh you know you know I I I didn't see much of him
03:17:50 you know I I I didn't see much of him and do you recall Mark Metaf raising concerns about Mark Jenn this was later and and and you know I can't say when but it's you know it's certainly
03:18:02 but it's you know it's certainly I moved out of Stoke Newington and would had very little contact with people uh in 1999,
03:18:09 in 1999, but certainly uh uh it would have been quite a bit before that. And the thing is I actually the whole thing about Mark Jenner being a trend
03:18:21 Jenner being a trend a
03:18:23 a supporter
03:18:25 supporter and uh Mark Meov. It was that which Mark Meov caused Mark to be uh suspicious of Jenner. Metaf was suspicious of Jenner
03:18:36 Jenner. Metaf was suspicious of Jenner because he claimed to be a Tremier football supporter. But many years later, and I informed Mark of this, I was at uh a uh training session for the
03:18:48 was at uh a uh training session for the Irish police complaints uh uh ombbudsman uh uh and a former u Metropolitan Police officer was there who knew Mark Jenner
03:19:00 officer was there who knew Mark Jenner and uh knew Mark Jenner after his deployment as an undercover officer. And uh he told me that Mark Jenner had a a very uh you know his career was ruined
03:19:14 very uh you know his career was ruined after his uh his undercover period but he was actually a Trenia football uh club supporter and Metaf got it completely wrong on those grounds. He
03:19:26 completely wrong on those grounds. He may have been right but his rationing was wrong. Well, we may hear more evidence about that next week. Can I please ask um if we can just turn in your statement to
03:19:38 we can just turn in your statement to paragraph 118 on page begins on page 43.
03:19:47 And so this is moving to the impact that this has had on you and the way in which um you you set this out here. Um just in terms beginning of the second
03:20:00 Um just in terms beginning of the second sentence you say I feel that back then similar to the way uh I feel in which frontline police officers
03:20:11 in which frontline police officers sought to deflect attention from their own crimes by arresting and charging their victims. special branch SDS and UCOs sought to deflect from their
03:20:22 UCOs sought to deflect from their unlawful collection, recording and retention
03:20:29 of intelligence by labeling the police accountability campaigns they targeted as political extremists. Uh and then um
03:20:40 as political extremists. Uh and then um further on you say despite the MPS having acknowledged and apologized for the unlawfulness of SDS operations, there has been a collective or
03:20:51 there has been a collective or institutional distancing from the past that obstructs the right of those of us reported on to the truth and to know what happened. Uh we have examined
03:21:03 what happened. Uh we have examined um institutional racism. Um you have coined this phrase institutional distancing from the past. C can you just explain
03:21:14 explain a little bit more what you mean by that in your response to hearing the evidence and following the evidence of the inquiry as you have done.
03:21:25 inquiry as you have done. This could take some time, but I think uh and it I think namely we saw there or the use
03:21:38 I think namely we saw there or the use of HCA as a vehicle to uh uh uh for undercover officers to gain uh uh credibility.
03:21:51 credibility. And I think the overarching importance to police services, not just the Metropolitan Police, is when uh uh
03:22:03 their activities are of uh are so embarrassing to them, they immediately go into uh uh damage limitation mode.
03:22:17 go into uh uh damage limitation mode. And they do this very well. And I can say this because I've actually done work for the Greater Manchester Police uh uh uh uh in the uh on disproportionality in
03:22:30 uh uh in the uh on disproportionality in policeless conduct proceedings. And I attended several meetings uh internal meetings of senior officers uh uh uh uh uh addressed by the uh chief constable
03:22:43 uh addressed by the uh chief constable of Greater Manchester Police. and uh he was very concerned at that time that Greater Manchester Police there was a knee-jerk reaction to every bit of uh uh
03:22:56 knee-jerk reaction to every bit of uh uh adverse publicity to go into uh damage limitation mode and that uh maybe it would be much more uh effective and much more uh uh uh community oriented
03:23:09 more uh uh uh community oriented policing if they were to uh honestly uh uh uh uh address these concerns in the community. And I think this is what
03:23:20 community. And I think this is what we've seen here that uh really it's not that the police did wrong, it's that the public got to know about the wrong the police did and matters got out of their
03:23:33 police did and matters got out of their control.
03:23:34 control. And so they've tried to rest control back. uh and it got out of control with the Mark Kennedy uh revelations and the the Radcliffe uh uh uh power
03:23:46 the Radcliffe uh uh uh power demonstrations uh protests and then it got further out of control uh as a result of the uh quite exceptional uh investigative work done
03:23:59 exceptional uh investigative work done by the women that had been in uh uh intimate relations with these police officers. and then uh uh the whistleblower Peter Francis and it was
03:24:11 whistleblower Peter Francis and it was spir it's all it's been a spiral out of control and that caused and Mark yesterday thanked Theresa May for uh the uh appointing the public inquiry
03:24:23 uh appointing the public inquiry and I followed the proceedings of the inquiry and I see that uh there has been a a determined and effective uh uh
03:24:34 a a determined and effective uh uh effort by the Metropolitan Police to take control of the narrative of this inquiry and it has done this in several ways. Now you see the Metropolitan
03:24:47 ways. Now you see the Metropolitan Police narrative of or initiated by the SDS officers that HCDA equals Colin Roach Center.
03:24:59 Roach Center. The inquiry accepted that narrative at the outset and Mark McKoff as a a uh a core participant was to
03:25:12 as a a uh a core participant was to address the corporate matters of HCDA and CRC. Mark Meov knows very little about Hackne Community Defense Association.
03:25:23 Association. Didn't know the sort of work we were doing. was always very supportive and respectful, but knew very little about it. And this anarchist label, I suspect,
03:25:34 it. And this anarchist label, I suspect, has been accepted or was accepted initially by the inquiry. I hope after Mark Metaf's uh uh evidence yesterday and mine today, it's I have nothing against anarchists whatsoever. But the
03:25:47 against anarchists whatsoever. But the thing is this is a forcet and it has been used as a as really we haven't looked about uh really any legitimate uh
03:25:59 looked about uh really any legitimate uh uh justification for uh uh reporting on HCDA whether it's to uh uh uh uh protect against public disorder or whether it's uh protect against subversion. But the
03:26:11 uh protect against subversion. But the thing is the anarchist label is particularly associated with subversion just as Marxism would be uh associated with uh subversion and I think this is a
03:26:23 with uh subversion and I think this is a narrative that it's been uh there it's a metropolitan police narrative and I think it would be extremely damaging if
03:26:34 think it would be extremely damaging if the inquiry were to accept that narrative or uh certainly it I think it's for the inquiry to challenge that narrative that has been put before it. But I think also that uh uh the uh uh uh
03:26:50 But I think also that uh uh the uh uh uh effectiveness of the Metropolitan Police in undermining the effectiveness of the inquiry are the delays that there were at the beginning. This is an inordinately expensive inquiry. It
03:27:01 inordinately expensive inquiry. It should never have happened like this. It is a waste of public funds and I see here many people before me and I don't think you're cheap
03:27:12 think you're cheap but this is all being paid for by the taxpayer and really in that respect you could it could be argued there's collusion
03:27:21 collusion in this attempt by the Metropolitan Police to damage to to to limit the damage to its reputation that's been
03:27:32 damage to its reputation that's been caused all those years ago. I'm sorry I I'd love to discuss it with you because I think it's extremely important. It's about the integrity of this inquiry as well.
03:27:45 this inquiry as well. Given all your experience of police matters, what would you say um can bring about uh the change that is required in the police? Can you can you
03:27:57 required in the police? Can you can you help on that topic in all of your experience and all of your analysis and all your thoughts about this? What practically can be done to prevent this
03:28:11 practically can be done to prevent this happening in your view? That's a strange question to ask somebody that's retired and is spent on this subject. I do not I avoid it completely. I have done my best.
03:28:24 completely. I have done my best. uh uh uh and as I've said earlier, is this uh one of the uh uh uh dilemas of democracy regarding uh police
03:28:35 democracy regarding uh police accountability? Um I think it's meaningful reform of police. I think it's quite you say about this institutional distancing. I think it was
03:28:47 institutional distancing. I think it was also quite a useful finding of uh the independent uh uh panel on Daniel Morgan of institutional corruption because I
03:28:58 of institutional corruption because I think the same applies there and I'm I'm really coming back to this inquiry and inquiry procedures uh there uh uh the the panel found that
03:29:11 uh there uh uh the the panel found that the the instit described it as institutional corruption because Metropolitan Police officers were seeking to conceal what had happened. Different Metropolitan Police officers
03:29:23 Different Metropolitan Police officers to those that were involved in the original investigation of uh Daniel Morgan's murder were uh uh seeking to conceal the truth of what happened
03:29:34 conceal the truth of what happened there. And I think that's happening here in this inquiry whether it's uh uh uh uh uh through amnesia collective selective amnesia of uh police officers uh uh uh
03:29:47 amnesia of uh police officers uh uh uh not being able to remember events uh of many years ago whether it's missing documents that are as I say are of strategic importance but I think uh that's that amounts to me
03:30:01 but I think uh that's that amounts to me to my mind also to institutional corruption So in terms of police reform which it can only be but it is root and branch reform of police that uh going beyond
03:30:14 reform of police that uh going beyond what has been uh uh uh uh uh established uh uh been introduced today and I guess we're waiting for lunch but I would like to come back to that. So Paul Condan as
03:30:28 to come back to that. So Paul Condan as he was around the uh um after or during the McFersonen inquiry said that uh uh the Metropolitan Police
03:30:42 said that uh uh the Metropolitan Police should seek out their most ardent critics and engage in discussion with them as to how to reform police. Now, one he never did as he suggested.
03:30:55 Now, one he never did as he suggested. He never contacted HCDA or those that have been involved in HCDA. Uh obviously, it had not been uh running, but I think uh the Colin Roach Center I know was written to after that because
03:31:09 know was written to after that because of uh uh uh this uh seeking out. But in terms of this inquiry, in terms of the apologies made, and I still wait for uh
03:31:20 apologies made, and I still wait for uh an apology to HCDA for the uh uh uh intrusive surveillance that we were subjected to, but uh it should be uh uh Baron Condom that is apologizing for
03:31:34 Baron Condom that is apologizing for what happened uh all those years ago because he himself visited the uh SDS and congratul ulated them on their work that was been being done. If he was
03:31:46 that was been being done. If he was unaware of what they were actually doing, that's as may be. But they can still come forward and uh personally apologize that uh uh for activities of
03:31:58 apologize that uh uh for activities of Metropolitan Police officers whom he congratulated for their good work. Dr. Smith, we're going to break there. I do not have any further questions for you, but after lunch, we will return. Uh
03:32:11 you, but after lunch, we will return. Uh there may be re-examination from your council. There may be some rule 10 questions. Thank you. Thank you. We'll resume at two.
03:32:22 Does that mean not
04:32:11 I better announce that good afternoon everybody. Uh these proceedings are the subject of live streaming after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may report what they
04:32:23 with mobile devices may report what they have heard to the outside world, but only 10 minutes after the event they're reporting has elapsed, they may not be used for recording or photography. Mr. Ramble,
04:32:33 Ramble, sir, there are no rule 10 questions and so we can proceed to re-examination. Yes.
04:32:39 Yes. Thank you, sir. Dr. Smith, just two or three topics. Okay. Uh the first topic is the defendant's information service and the burglary.
04:32:50 information service and the burglary. Okay.
04:32:53 Is it right as said in your statement that the the defendants information service or dis was active by around autumn 1994?
04:33:04 autumn 1994? Yes.
04:33:05 Yes. And that was in broad terms for use in civil claims pursued against the Metropolitan Police. Yes. And uh uh criminal defense as well. And criminal defense.
04:33:17 And criminal defense. And is it right that the commencement of the dis was uh announced or marked in an article in the Lag magazine, the Legal
04:33:29 article in the Lag magazine, the Legal Action Group magazine. Uh well, I've looked further and it was actually the first occasion that there's a media reference to it is in a Guardian article of March 1995.
04:33:41 article of March 1995. I think it's March 1995, but it's actually when uh uh DC Mark Jenner introduces himself to uh HCDA or attends
04:33:53 introduces himself to uh HCDA or attends an HCDA event and starts reporting on the Colin Ro Center. So, it's not the case, is it Dr. Smith, that it it went about its business trying to be secret?
04:34:04 trying to be secret? Oh, no, not at all. And is it right that the but what was held uh uh on the the database was very much uh uh held uh uh
04:34:16 database was very much uh uh held uh uh confidentially and uh it was certainly not held in the Colin Ro Center of of course but the fact of of his existence
04:34:25 existence was
04:34:26 was and it would have been known also to uh uh police uh uh uh solicitors because uh the uh because uh solicit visitors were
04:34:37 the uh because uh solicit visitors were making uh uh use of the service and did in fact um the Metropolitan Police object to the registration of the service with the data protection registar. They did and uh uh I've
04:34:50 registar. They did and uh uh I've learned of this and again I I don't have I haven't retained this documentation but uh it was uh uh and I don't even know I I received a letter from the
04:35:02 know I I received a letter from the offices of the data protection registar uh uh uh seeking an appointment uh uh uh to discuss uh uh the database and I
04:35:14 to discuss uh uh the database and I think I I cannot recall if I was informed in that letter. But I was certainly informed uh when uh the solicitor I had a meeting with the solicitor uh which was at the Colin
04:35:25 solicitor uh which was at the Colin Roach Center in Bradbury Street uh that uh the Metropolitan Police Service uh had uh objected to the uh data the
04:35:36 had uh objected to the uh data the registration of the database uh along with the association of chief police officers.
04:35:42 officers. And in your statement, you described that the Colin Roach Center left Bradbury Street in March 1995. Yes. I don't know the exact date, but I do know the exact date that uh the uh uh
04:35:56 do know the exact date that uh the uh uh PO box for CRC was set up and that was the 25th of March uh uh 1995. So the meeting with the data protection registar must be must have taken place
04:36:07 registar must be must have taken place at some point prior to that. Yes, it would have. Yes. Yes.
04:36:13 And we know from documents in this inquiry that Jenner, Mark Jenner, joined the SDS in around September 1994. You've given evidence about the burglary that
04:36:25 given evidence about the burglary that happened um at HCDA office in December 1994.
04:36:32 1994. And you've described, I think both in your statement and today, the concern at the time that special branch was involved in the burglary. Is that right? That's right.
04:36:44 That's right. And of course, we now know that in February 1995, Mark Jenner is deployed, the Metropolitan Police are deploying an undercover officer into the field to
04:36:56 undercover officer into the field to gather information on the HC. I you see I I take uh uh really Mark Jenner's interest
04:37:04 interest in HCDA is dating from September because in both uh uh his own witness statement and also in uh uh the tasking document
04:37:18 and also in uh uh the tasking document and I believe also in the annual report it said that he immediately started researching his targets. Now there was much in the public domain on HCDA at
04:37:30 much in the public domain on HCDA at that time and uh I I think it it would certainly have known what HCDA was and what HCDA did. If there was concern at
04:37:41 what HCDA did. If there was concern at the time in December 1994 that special branch were in some way involved with the burglary, what's your level of concern now with the knowledge of Mark
04:37:53 concern now with the knowledge of Mark Jenner's research and the at that stage imminent deployment into the field against the HCDA. We can look at that in many at many
04:38:05 We can look at that in many at many levels, but I I think mostly I think the Metropolitan Police are seeking to perhaps to pull the wall over the eyes of the inquiry in
04:38:18 the wall over the eyes of the inquiry in regard to the uh main reason for that deployment. I I think uh uh given that we know that Metropolitan Police were
04:38:29 we know that Metropolitan Police were opposed to the registration of the DIS, I think also the fact uh that uh the timing uh of uh uh uh DC Jenner's uh
04:38:40 timing uh of uh uh uh DC Jenner's uh deployment. I think there's uh there's a narrative there that stands up on the evidence as to the real reason why uh uh uh HCDA was targeted. And I maintain it
04:38:52 uh HCDA was targeted. And I maintain it was HCDA that was targeted. It wasn't the Colin Roach Center that was targeted because that tasking report uh uh is quite specific. Uh there's no mention of
04:39:03 quite specific. Uh there's no mention of uh of uh CRC in that report and I think this is backed up by the annual reports and it's also about uh what uh uh they refer to as anti- police activities.
04:39:17 refer to as anti- police activities. Next topic. Can you just give us a sense of the profile of the HCDA at its most active in the media and in the public
04:39:28 in the media and in the public consciousness both locally and nationally?
04:39:34 Well, obviously my uh uh understanding of it is uh is uh biased because I'm involved in it and I because I'm not outside of London. I can't uh uh I don't
04:39:46 outside of London. I can't uh uh I don't know how much impact it had nationally. It was certainly on national news uh uh uh on uh on many occasions uh uh broadcast news uh the Guardian uh
04:39:59 broadcast news uh the Guardian uh regularly had features on it. I did uh uh uh mind you I think uh the article I did with uh um the Daily the Mail on Sunday which was a feature article uh uh
04:40:12 Sunday which was a feature article uh uh uh uh on the civil actions against the police. Um that I think that was 95 and uh and uh DC Jenner makes reference to me meeting the journalist uh uh uh in
04:40:27 me meeting the journalist uh uh uh in that regard. Um I think also there was there was an excellent uh uh uh independent on Sunday piece by Karen Mcrist. He actually attended an HCDA
04:40:39 Mcrist. He actually attended an HCDA meeting and I think it was a fivepage uh uh uh feature on HCDA and very accurate uh uh representation of how HCDA operated. And I think that would have
04:40:51 operated. And I think that would have been in maybe 1993. And in your witness statement, you describe Timeout magazine running weekly
04:41:02 describe Timeout magazine running weekly report for a period under the heading Stoke Newington stack scandal and and they had their own logo uh because it was so such a regular feature.
04:41:13 feature. And similarly um in your statement March 1993 wallto-wall media coverage when the court of appeal quashed convictions um of cases that had featured in the HCDA
04:41:25 of cases that had featured in the HCDA fighting the lawman pamphlet. Yes. And that was on uh uh local and national uh uh uh TV news. I think both I think it was on uh uh B Yeah, I'm sure
04:41:38 I think it was on uh uh B Yeah, I'm sure it was BBC, ITV and Channel 4 because uh a banner HCDA's banner was unfurled coming out of uh the uh uh uh Royal
04:41:50 coming out of uh the uh uh uh Royal Courts of Justice
04:41:54 and did you have a sense at the time of how HCDA was viewed by the Metropolitan Police.
04:42:07 Metropolitan Police. Well, I think this again I think uh certainly we were tinpot revolutionaries according to one chief superintendent of uh Stoington police station and the
04:42:20 uh Stoington police station and the language that was used in that special branch report was used to describe HCDA throughout and it was of uh extreme uh ideologues uh uh uh left-wing uh
04:42:34 ideologues uh uh uh left-wing uh agitators and that sort of language which that the police used uh to describe us. Would it have been your assumption at the time that the work of the HCDA and in particular its successes
04:42:47 the HCDA and in particular its successes would have been widely known about within MPS generally and special branch in particular? Certainly. And uh and I uh I think it's
04:42:58 Certainly. And uh and I uh I think it's in the opening statement I quote directly from the TV documentary uh uh uh directed by Paul Greengrass. Uh well am I probably not allowed to say that
04:43:09 am I probably not allowed to say that but
04:43:12 but he's a public figure uh and uh uh where he he the the TV program refers to their uh uh uh uh um discussions with the
04:43:24 uh uh uh uh um discussions with the Metropolitan Police saying that although the uh uh HCDA is dismissed as a fringe group, they are very much concerned by our uh civil litigation strategy.
04:43:41 Given the profile of the HCDA, given the concern
04:43:45 concern um that the MPS had about HCDA's litigation strategy, if it is said that the reporting on you and HCDA was simply incidental to some
04:43:58 and HCDA was simply incidental to some other purpose, do you buy it? No. And I think all of the reporting that is referred to as incidental uh uh it can be seen another way. It can and
04:44:10 it can be seen another way. It can and and I think uh HCDA um members were very supportive of each other, but it's possible to very quickly determine whether somebody has been
04:44:22 determine whether somebody has been affected by police injustice because of the traumas they experience. And it's something when you have people that have been through the same thing, their warmth towards each other, that
04:44:33 warmth towards each other, that collective sense of security is all-encompassing. And it's very easy to see if somebody's there that doesn't have that. And I
04:44:44 there that doesn't have that. And I think that's true of all justice campaigns that really there's an honesty and a heartfelt uh uh suffering uh uh and empathy for each other that I
04:44:58 uh uh and empathy for each other that I don't think undercover officers and I think even Trevor Morris the black officer knew that they couldn't ingratiate themselves in such
04:45:09 ingratiate themselves in such communities of resistance if you like and I think they stayed away or I think actually there was a case I think they tried to infiltrate the Roach family
04:45:21 tried to infiltrate the Roach family support committee in 1983 and they got repelled and I think they learned from that that the most proactive way of collecting evidence on justice campaigns
04:45:34 collecting evidence on justice campaigns was to collect it through hearsay what members of campaign said to other people and report on that. So rather than see that as incidental or collateral, I see
04:45:47 that as incidental or collateral, I see that as proactive undercover policing where you use your best possible resource and I'm sure the inquiry knows about the intelligence matrix
04:45:59 about the intelligence matrix uh and what used to be referred to as uh 5* 5* 5 and it what would be graded was that the intelligence source the uh uh uh validity the accuracy and the AC the
04:46:13 uh validity the accuracy and the AC the accuracy of the intelligence and its usefulness and they would be graded 555 that and I think in regard to justice campaigns they couldn't get access
04:46:25 campaigns they couldn't get access because their cover would be blown pretty quickly. I think uh uh in regard to Mark Jenner it took a while for Mark Metaf to realize he weren't no joiner
04:46:36 Metaf to realize he weren't no joiner and I think we find straight out straight away if there was an undercover. I understand you to be suggesting that the targeting of some groups is actually incidental to targeting justice campaigns and police. Yes, you could put it around the other
04:46:47 Yes, you could put it around the other way that really they used other uh uh left-wing groups in order to uh collect uh information, gather information on uh uh
04:46:58 uh justice campaigns that uh uh they felt threatened by the MPS felt threatened. Those are my questions. But before I sit down, is there anything else that you've
04:47:10 down, is there anything else that you've figured you'd like to say or give evidence about before I do so? Well, if I've forgotten anything, I think uh you've prompted me in that regard now. So, I don't I don't think
04:47:21 regard now. So, I don't I don't think so. I think uh hopefully my evidence stands up. Uh as said, I don't have a statement to make better than what I've already said. Thank you, sir.
04:47:32 Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Smith for giving evidence about the facts of the matter in which you participated. Very grateful to you as I am to all uh
04:47:43 grateful to you as I am to all uh witnesses who've come here to assist me. Thank you.