Sara gives powerful testimony about her 18-month sexual relationship with undercover officer HN16 James Thompson (cover name 'James Straven'). She describes how Thompson cultivated an intimate relationship while hiding his true identity, partner, and police role. Sara details the emotional manipulation, the abrupt ending via letter citing 'sexual difficulties,' Thompson's subsequent relationship with another activist (Ellie), and the profound confusion and psychological harm that persisted for 17 years until she discovered the truth in 2018.
00:42:27 You're content to go back fully public again as we were before? Yes. Yes.
00:42:29 Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.
00:42:43 A short pause while everything is um rearranged.
00:43:14 Um, Sara, returning to your relationship with James Thompson, we've now we're now exploring the platonic phase of your relationship. Um, so this is after you've received
00:43:26 Um, so this is after you've received this letter. You've discussed the letter with him.
00:43:31 with him. the relationship is on a new nonsexual footing.
00:43:37 footing. Um, you say this about this new phase in your witness statement. This is 382103.33.
00:43:42 That's page 13. And you say, "After this, we continued to spend much time together for several months, although we were no longer having sex with each other. For me, it was possible to make the shift to a nonsexual relationship because our
00:43:58 nonsexual relationship because our connection was so strong on so many levels. We still delighted in each other's company and of course the continued close relationship meant that I held on to a hope that he would change his mind with time or that we could
00:44:10 his mind with time or that we could somehow work it out. It was on my mind all the time.
00:44:16 So I understand from that that you remained sufficiently close that you believe there was a hope at least that the sexual relationship might rekindle. Um,
00:44:31 Um, it I think it was more of a hope that we would somehow manage to work it out and stay as a couple with or without that if I if I am really honest and think about it now.
00:44:43 it now. You mean remain as a couple but maybe not
00:44:44 not either way. Either way. Yeah. Being that realistic at the time, but that's how it felt for me at the time. Yeah. But essentially thought you
00:44:58 Yeah. But essentially thought you thought the relationship in whatever form it took had a future of sorts. Possibly. I hope so. Right.
00:44:59 Right. Um
00:45:04 I understand you continue to be close. Did he ever seem sad or preoccupied about this change in the relationship?
00:45:20 Not notably, but I mean it it obviously was a major change, but the closeness between us was still there. So, in a way that it was difficult to say, right? But he he you have no recollection of him expressing sort of
00:45:33 recollection of him expressing sort of regrets about the fact that you weren't having sex or no,
00:45:44 having sex or no, that things had shifted, right? Um you referred earlier briefly Sara to his mentioning the possibility of his relocating to America. Um you talk about this in your witness statement. I don't think we need to bring it up, but it's paragraph 3.35. Yeah.
00:45:54 Yeah. Um and you talk there about the impact that had on you and how that affected you and it made you feel desolate. Um,
00:46:12 made you feel desolate. Um, are you able to pinpoint at all when he told you that in the context of your relationship moving from the sexual relationship if that went on until early 2000? I it was definitely before
00:46:23 2000? I it was definitely before September 2000 because that's when I went
00:46:25 went abroad on a holiday where I made a decision to return to that country to live and it was that was based on the fact that he was going to be leaving. I understand.
00:46:36 I understand. So it took away the hope that we would have any sort of you know we might remain friends from locations away but it took away any hope there. So it was definitely before
00:46:48 definitely before um
00:46:50 um September and going back it was probably
00:47:03 June before I say maybe the spring right. Okay. So quite early in 2000 do you think? And can you assist us Sara with just what he said, what reasons he gave you for
00:47:15 for Oh, because his exartner's partner
00:47:19 partner job was moving to America. So, they were moving the whole family there and because of course because of the job that he had um as a film location manager, he could pretty much move
00:47:34 pretty much move to it would he would still be able to work there. Yeah. Yeah. Doing the job that he was doing, he was going for the sake of his children basically who he'd always made clear were, you know, the priority of his life.
00:47:47 you know, the priority of his life. Exactly. But that that's what I was going to say. It was all part and parcel of his devoted relationship with his children. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
00:48:05 just finally on this topic, you say, um, at paragraph 3.36 of your witness statement
00:48:07 statement on page 14, you say, "Despite the content of the letter and his stated intention to move to the States. We continued to be close and to see each other regularly." And he said nothing more for the time being about moving to America, we also remained in contact
00:48:24 America, we also remained in contact when we were working abroad. I still had hope that we would rekindle our sexual relationship. So really
00:48:30 So really his behavior towards you, if I understand correctly, was still sufficiently warm and affectionate that hope in your heart persisted.
00:48:45 hope in your heart persisted. Yeah. Yeah. I think I have to say on reading that now, I don't know if I still had hope that we would rekindle.
00:48:56 still had hope that we would rekindle. Right. I I might want to go backwards on that one. I I think I think the hope was there that we would still be able to go forward in some way. I understand. Um
00:49:00 Um and that we'd still be in contact even if you you know whatever happened really that we would maintain some sort of relationship.
00:49:13 some sort of relationship. Moving now Sara to your trip to Goa and James Thompson's trip to Goa. Um, is it your understanding that over the course of your relationship with James
00:49:27 of your relationship with James Thompson, both sexual and nonsexual, that he went to Goa twice? Yes.
00:49:39 Yes. Um, looking at what I understand to be the first trip, but I'll explore this with you. Um, if you could bring up Power Base, please. 352 page 15.
00:49:41 page 15. Sir, this is at B13.
00:49:47 Uh this part of the interview has been compiled from information gleaned from you Sara but also some other people who I understand were on the trip. Yeah.
00:50:02 Yeah. And it says this. Straven went to India in late 1999 with some people from the Cuden Hunt sabotur group to visit friends who had set up a cat and dog rescue center there. Sara remembers he came back full of enthusiasm for how great India was, how relaxing, how he
00:50:14 great India was, how relaxing, how he had played football on the beach with the kids. He really loved it. With some others, she went to India Jan 2000 for
00:50:25 others, she went to India Jan 2000 for two weeks. He visited for a week because he had other things to do for his job. It was relaxing time with no animals activity apart from helping out at the animal rescue center. And then it says Mark thought it was a bit
01:04:28 understand from your evidence so far that you moved abroad around March 2001. Is that accurate? That is. Yeah. And that part of your decision making process was the fact that you had given up hope
01:04:40 up hope that your relationship definitely a contributing factor to making that decision. And I know if I had still been with him in a relationship, I probably would not have made that decision. I wouldn't have made that decision.
01:04:52 that decision. Yeah. So, you were taking very concrete steps to move on. Yes.
01:04:54 Yes. Right.
01:04:56 Right. Um,
01:04:58 Um, looking now at your discovery that he had entered into a sexual relationship with Ellie, you talk about this in your witness
01:05:12 you talk about this in your witness statement at paragraphs 3.48 to 3.49. That's UCPI 38210, page 16,
01:05:17 page 16, paragraphs 3.48 is where we start. Um, and you say, "James and I initially remained close and we did talk about him coming to visit, but he never did." You say that later.
01:05:32 say that later. I always harbored hope somewhere in my heart. I thought he would always be part of my life.
01:05:43 of my life. And then at 3.49, 49. You say, "Soon after moving abroad, within a few weeks, someone from the group told me that James started seeing Ellie." Mhm.
01:05:44 Mhm. Yeah.
01:05:45 Yeah. Um,
01:05:47 Um, just so I'm clear, you were still in touch with James at this point. Is that accurate?
01:05:55 accurate? Yeah. And when I say I always harbored hope somewhere in my heart, I'd moved on from thinking we were ever going to be a couple.
01:06:01 couple. Yeah. But I always thought we would still be he would always be part of my life, you know, in some way as a friend or Yeah. as a friend really. Um, and even though you were still in contact with him, he didn't tell you
01:06:15 contact with him, he didn't tell you that he was seeing Ellie. You had to hear it from someone else. Is that accurate?
01:06:16 accurate? Yeah.
01:06:20 Yeah. How did you feel when you found that out?
01:06:28 Shattered if I'm honest. um
01:06:34 confused. Completely and utterly confused.
01:06:34 confused. Yeah.
01:06:36 Yeah. Um and that was because a well it was because of the closeness that we'd always had.
01:06:49 that we'd always had. So in my mind it was like well if he's if we were that close and it was a sexual thing that stopped the relationship, why wouldn't you have carried on just seeing me? Why was he starting a relationship? Yeah. that I knew to be sexual with somebody else. Yeah.
01:07:03 Yeah. So, I was it completely conf I just I it took me until I found out in 2018 to get my head around what that was all about
01:07:14 about with the background that we had had. It just didn't make any sense. Yeah.
01:07:18 Yeah. And I also had deep concern for the fact that he was going to take somebody else down the path that he had taken me. I and I I actually I think it's probably in my statement, but I emailed him about that and was like, "What the hell are you doing?" Yeah.
01:07:30 Yeah. It's not fair. Yeah.
01:07:34 Yeah. If you're about to start down the same pathway that you did Yeah.
01:07:36 Yeah. with me. So, it caused a lot of confusion, a lot of angst. Yeah. And a lot of pain, I understand, from your witness statement. Um,
01:07:43 Um, you've mentioned it just now and you do refer to this in your witness statement that you say that you sent him an email.
01:07:59 that you say that you sent him an email. Was that around if we're saying that you found out that he had started a sexual relationship with Ellie a few weeks maybe after you'd moved abroad? Yeah.
01:08:02 Yeah. Did you email him around that time? So, we talking I would have done. Yeah. Around summer 2001. It might have even been a bit earlier than that. It might have been. I went in March. It could have even been April,
01:08:14 March. It could have even been April, May. I think it was it was earlier than the summer. Okay. Um, and you set out in your witness statement what you said in that email. Uh, this is at paragraph 3.52 of
01:08:26 email. Uh, this is at paragraph 3.52 of your witness statement. And you say that you asked James by email why he'd started a relationship with Ellie. I said that it did not make sense to me in light of his stated reasons for his decision to end our relationship and the fact he was moving to the States. He
01:08:38 fact he was moving to the States. He didn't reply and I never heard from him again. I think I sent him one more email and didn't receive a reply.
01:08:57 and didn't receive a reply. So I understand from that you never got an answer from him about how he was able to start another sexual relationship in No.
01:08:59 No. What he told you in that letter? No.
01:09:01 No. How did that make you feel?
01:09:08 confused. Um
01:09:15 I can't even remember if I was angry. I think it was just like it just didn't make sense. It was confusion more than anything I would say was the overriding Yeah.
01:09:27 Yeah. feeling from from from all of that. Yeah.
01:09:29 Yeah. And the fact that he had obviously moved on, you know, meant I wasn't going to chase behind him. if he wasn't going to answer me then just to leave him be to get on with what he was doing. Yeah, understood. Um, you've
01:09:48 Yeah, understood. Um, you've mentioned this earlier in your evidence, Sara, but going back to it briefly, paragraph 3.54 of your witness statement, you refer to the casual relationship that you had in summer 2000 with that individual that we've identified between ourselves.
01:09:59 identified between ourselves. And you say that it was mostly just a comfort to share what was happening for me with someone and to have some reassurance about my desiraability after James's decision to end our sexual relationship.
01:10:18 relationship. So I understand that to mean that your self-esteem had been had taken quite a serious knock. Yeah.
01:10:23 Yeah. From the way you've been treated by James Thompson. Um,
01:10:32 I understand from your evidence thus far that you and James were actually still quite close at that stage. Obviously, not physically, but you're in a close friendship. Yeah. We weren't in a we weren't obviously in the sexual relationship and that we had started to see
01:10:43 that we had started to see less of each other at that point, but we were still we were always close right up until I went abroad.
01:10:56 until I went abroad. And at that time you entered the relationship. Did you tell James about the relationship then? No.
01:10:57 No. Why was that?
01:11:08 Why was that? Because I didn't want him to know. Um because I I think there was still in my heart the hope that we would somehow work it out at some point. Um
01:11:10 Um 3.54 of your witness statement. It's page 18. You say, "At some point, James was told that I had been seeing this man. He wrote to me when I had moved abroad and asked why I had shared a room
01:11:27 abroad and asked why I had shared a room with him in January 2000 on the Goa trip if I was seeing someone else. I was not seeing this man when I went away with him in 2000. James had the dates wrong. In this email he basically questioned my morals which now I know the truth I find abhorrent.
01:11:38 abhorrent. Is that accurate? Yeah. So he he basically so that that relationship that I had that started in the summer
01:11:52 the summer after we'd been to Goa in the January. It hadn't started the summer before that.
01:11:54 that. Did,
01:11:56 Did, don't worry if you can't remember, but did you get this communication from him before or after you found out he was seeing Ellie? Can you recall
01:12:13 before? Um, but in essence, what he was doing in this email, I mean, it could be described as gaslighting and that he was twisting things to put you in the wrong. Would you agree with that characterization?
01:12:25 Um, I'm trying to think of the context of the email that he had found out. He had emailed me and questioned me about Yeah. I Yeah. I don't know if it was gaslighting or not, but he definitely
01:12:39 gaslighting or not, but he definitely questioned why had I shared a room with him.
01:12:40 him. Yeah.
01:12:41 Yeah. If I had been seeing somebody else. So, it implied that you had been giving him some sort of false hope. Is that fair to say?
01:12:53 fair to say? Or or I was Yeah. deceiving deceiving him, but not being honest with him. Yeah.
01:12:59 Yeah. Yeah. Why was I sharing a room if I was already with somebody else? But I wasn't at that point. So yeah, he was questioning questioning my morals, I guess. Yeah. And and did you make those points to him? Did you reply to this? Yeah. I replied to say that um he's got his dates wrong.
01:13:10 his dates wrong. Right.
01:13:15 Right. And that that wasn't the case and and I don't think he ever answered that. Right.
01:13:17 Right. Um, I just want to take you very briefly, Sara, just to some records of phone contact from James Thompson to you. It's only one way if you see what I mean. I can't see any records of your
01:13:32 mean. I can't see any records of your calls to him. Um, but if we could bring these up, please. Uh, MPS0719641.
01:13:38 Sir, it's at B11.
01:13:47 Um don't I realize this is an it's probably a futile exercise because obviously it's a very long time ago but I just want to refer you Sara to some specific
01:13:55 specific instances of apparent contact at least him trying to contact you and see if it rings any bells. Um on the if we could go to page eight
01:14:06 go to page eight of this document uh the top of the page I think you can see Yeah. Do you see your name Sara? Just on the right hand side. Um
01:14:22 Um can you see it's highlighted in yellow? Oh at the top. Yeah. Yeah. And that and then further down there's another one.
01:14:26 one. Yeah. But this one at least was because a lot of the calls he makes to you are of no duration which suggests that maybe he just hung up or there was no actual hello
01:14:40 hello chat. But this one was on the 14th of May 2001 and this shows that it lasted 2 minutes 41 seconds. Um I I understand I think you Yes, I do understand that you'd moved abroad by that point. Do you have any recollection of any phone contact around that time?
01:14:51 of any phone contact around that time? We might we might have done because we were still in touch when I first moved, right?
01:14:58 right? That that would make sense. So I guess he found out or I found out about Ellie after that date. So we would still have been in touch. Okay.
01:15:06 Okay. About him possibly coming out. Yeah. But if possible. Okay. Well, that takes me to my
01:15:14 next question. Actually, if I can take you to page 40 of this document.
01:15:21 Um 21 2001 was 2001. Yes. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Um yes. On page four. Is this page 40? Um and if
01:15:32 Um and if I could Hang on. Sorry. Uh there's a phone call apparently on the 21st of October 2001. Um
01:15:48 21st of October 2001. Um yeah. So if you can see Sara, it's where your name appears. You're looking from the bottom. It's the first time your name appears from the bottom up and it shows that on the 21st of October 2001, it seems that there was a call from him to you which lasted 6 minutes 12
01:16:01 to you which lasted 6 minutes 12 seconds. So on your evidence that would appear to be after you'd found out about Ellie.
01:16:09 Ellie. Yeah, I don't remember. I really don't remember having any contact with him
01:16:20 remember having any contact with him after all that finding out of Ellie and him find him emailing me about the relationship that I had had. Yeah, I understand. So, just for completeness, I don't think we need to look at it because that I understand your evidence, but the last contact between you according to these
01:16:32 contact between you according to these records, I mean, the thing is we don't know obviously whether or not you spoke to him. It just shows that he rang you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the fact that it's six minutes is confusing because I I certainly don't remember Yeah,
01:16:45 Yeah, he he disappeared from the point that I wrote in my statement and I don't remember having had I don't remember having had any contact with him after that.
01:16:57 with him after that. Do you have any recollection maybe of him leaving you a voicemail or anything like that? Maybe he did and I didn't get it, but not that I'm aware of. Right. Um and again just for completeness we don't need to look at it but these records show uh that the final contact between you was on well the
01:17:13 contact between you was on well the final time he contacted you I should say is the 18th of February 2002 and that was for that was lasted 25 seconds. So I have no recollection of him
01:17:27 I have no recollection of him and I would remember I would remember. Yeah. Yeah. Understood. Um just very briefly if we could look at
01:17:38 Um just very briefly if we could look at your emotional state just after you lost contact with him but before you found out the truth. You talk about this Sara in your witness statement at paragraphs 4.1 to 4.4 and again you you talk very eloquently
01:17:53 and again you you talk very eloquently and openly about how that affected you. Um, and if I understand correctly, you continued to be plagued by distressing dreams and disturbing dreams.
01:18:14 dreams and disturbing dreams. And after a particularly harrowing dream in 20134, you decided to burn all your journals that referred to him, photographs of him, anything you had in your possession that related to him or referred to him. Is that accurate? And yeah, and the letter and the letter.
01:18:26 and the letter. And the letter that he had sent me, which I'd kept. Yeah. And if I understand correctly, that was almost an almost sort of ceremonial purge. It was a way of just trying it was trying to get him out of my system. And I want to point it out is
01:18:41 system. And I want to point it out is what I said earlier is that was in 2013, right?
01:18:41 right? Or 14 or 13, I think. Yeah. So that was 12 years after all this had happened. But
01:18:53 happened. But again, I just reiterate to the inquiry that these relationships didn't didn't end when they ended. Yeah.
01:18:58 Yeah. You know, it carried they carried on. No, I understand. So, it had a long longstanding effect. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Moving now to when you actually found out the truth, Sara. Um,
01:19:09 out the truth, Sara. Um, again, you talk about this very eloquently in your witness statement at paragraphs 3.57 to 3.58. And you describe how before you actually found out the truth,
01:19:21 out the truth, there were suspicions mounting amongst your group of friends. Is that accurate? I wouldn't I wouldn't there was one or two probably two occasions when it came up and the first time was a friend of
01:19:33 up and the first time was a friend of mine that had said had I ever considered this is when I'd come back to England to live
01:19:44 live that he may have been undercover and I just I can and in here I can remember just being completely
01:19:51 s it didn't you know it had it wasn't something I don't keep up with the papers I didn't know what was going on Um, and I can just remember being completely thrown by that and then saying, "No, it wasn't
01:20:04 saying, "No, it wasn't it didn't it didn't make sense to me." Yeah.
01:20:08 Yeah. On one hand, it was like, "My god, it could explain some things, but it was so out there for me. It was I didn't really take that seriously." And again, even answer that question there. Yeah.
01:20:20 there. Yeah. Yeah. and and you continued again to give him the benefit of the doubt even after all those and then I think I think very close to when I got the letter from from the inquiry.
01:20:26 inquiry. Yeah.
01:20:31 Yeah. Somebody from that group had contacted me just to say I'm pretty sure he was right.
01:20:43 right. And I can remember just challenging that person saying well on who say so? Where have you got that information from? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I can remember saying until until that's proven, I don't believe it. Yeah.
01:20:51 Yeah. Or something along those lines. So, it it just didn't Yeah. I didn't really take it on board. And was that in large part because of the closeness of your connection with him?
01:21:01 him? Yeah. Yeah. As you understood it. Yeah. And and also just it's it's just not something you can imagine happening.
01:21:12 not something you can imagine happening. Yes. It was to do with that. It was to do not just with his closeness to me but other people in our group as well. The fact that he was such an integrated part of our group. And for me at that time it was like having had the letter about all his sexual difficulties and the abuse and
01:21:25 sexual difficulties and the abuse and everything else. It was like well that happens to people and
01:21:29 and he you know that could be why he compartmentalizes his life. It's a way of coping. Yeah.
01:21:38 Yeah. With what happened. So for me it was like that that that could be completely plausible
01:21:41 plausible and also I mean if I understand correctly you trusted him and you trusted what he had told you and you had no reason not to. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. You thought um you found out the truth in August 2018
01:21:53 in August 2018 when you were informed by a letter from the inquiry.
01:21:58 You talk in your witness statement at paragraph 4.17 about the cataclysmic effect that had on you and I understand your immediate reaction Sara was one of shock, anger, confusion,
01:22:13 shock, anger, confusion, but there was also some relief that you weren't crazy. Is that accurate? Well, you know, after years of confusion and trying to work out it and I put in my statement was like layers of onion coming off. You know, it takes time to make that switch from what was to what
01:22:28 make that switch from what was to what is. It's not overnight. It took, I would say, months, year, whatever. It's still ongoing in some ways. But for me, there was definitely it was like, oh my god, that that kind of that's why
01:22:45 that that kind of that's why the situation with Ellie happened. Yeah. You know, because none of none of it none of that was the truth. M so in a way I mean there were times especially with the dreams I mean and
01:22:57 especially with the dreams I mean and again I put it in my statement you know there's some and this is proven the psyche knows when something's off even it's a it's a it's a subconscious thing
01:23:07 thing um and I I think there were times you know when I burnt those journals it's like am I nuts why can't I get why can't I move on from this because it didn't
01:23:18 I move on from this because it didn't make it didn't make sense. So I used to question my own like feelings and and stuff around it. I did feel crazy at times. So in a way there was a a relief in finally knowing
01:23:32 there was a a relief in finally knowing that there was a good reason why I'd felt like that. But then there was also anger because of all the guilt that I'd carried about talking about that letter about him thinking I'd had a relationship when I was still with him in that way, you know.
01:23:47 in that way, you know. So um there there was there was a relief.
01:23:48 relief. Yeah.
01:23:53 Yeah. And it was also to think God I wasn't crazy to feel like I was feeling. Yeah.
01:23:54 Yeah. In all those years. So Yeah. Yeah.
01:24:07 Yeah. Yeah. Um you also at 4.22 of your witness statement refer to feeling fearful and you say that you felt unsafe and like you might be like I might be under scrutiny. The first few weeks after receiving the letter from the inquiry, I felt he might just turn up again. I worried that he might turn up at my
01:24:19 worried that he might turn up at my house or I could bump into him in the street. So, it seems you were specifically scared about bumping into him.
01:24:26 him. Yeah.
01:24:29 Yeah. Can you elaborate on that for us, Sara? I you know this isn't in the statement but about a week before I got that letter I was
01:24:41 week before I got that letter I was walking down the street and I I saw somebody who I thought was this is before I knew any of this and I can just remember doing a double take. It wasn't him but there was something going on before that letter came. I don't know. Yeah.
01:24:50 Yeah. And also
01:24:52 And also um
01:24:53 um you know when you find out that you've been spied on it rocks the
01:25:04 that you've been spied on it rocks the very foundation of your life and for me it was like God is he you know is he going to maybe want me to keep silent? Is he going to come and threaten? Is
01:25:16 Is he going to come and threaten? Is something going to happen like that? it just and I I go into this um later on in my statement but yeah it left me and I I would say that went on
01:25:32 left me and I I would say that went on for quite a long time and then I found out what his job was and what he'd studied and you know part of my work had been in conflict zones with the job that I had and I realized that I
01:25:47 job that I had and I realized that I could have bumped into him if I hadn't have gone to abroad as well. So there was there was a sense of you know is he on my case? Yeah. Yeah. And that you felt you know by that time it was obvious that he was going to be in some sort of
01:26:03 that he was going to be in some sort of of trouble and was he maybe going to try and get me to keep quiet. That's how I felt.
01:26:04 felt. I see. So that was an additional stress. You know the audacity of what happened it wouldn't have surprised me. Yeah. if he'd have just turned up, you know.
01:26:15 know. Yeah. Well, I suppose at that stage you felt like anything was possible to
01:26:25 felt like anything was possible to Yeah. There's no words to describe that feeling and I think only the other women who happened to would be able to understand the depth of that. Yeah.
01:26:25 Yeah. Um fear. Yeah. Um in terms of the longer term impact that it's had on you Sara, you talk
01:26:37 that it's had on you Sara, you talk about this in your witness statement at paragraphs 4.23 to 4.26. 26. Do you want to just talk tell us just briefly about that? About the long-term effect that it's had on you and your
01:26:51 effect that it's had on you and your ability to trust people and the police generally. Yeah, I mean I think that's ongoing. I don't know whether that will ever go away. Um, so I think as I write here, the actual
01:27:04 as I write here, the actual effects of it are are like an onion that keep peeling and that that's been pretty much ongoing. Even when you think
01:27:15 much ongoing. Even when you think they're all off, something else happens. You know, you find out something two weeks ago that I didn't know. Um, so I think what it's what it did is a
01:27:23 a the safety level of course. Um, it annihilates any, you know, I started to do things like I would park in a little
01:27:36 do things like I would park in a little car park near where I used to work, but I stopped parking there because it was dark and I would park. It changed my behavior.
01:27:37 behavior. Yeah.
01:27:40 Yeah. It changed my feeling of safety completely. And until I moved a year ago, if ever anything disappeared in my house that I couldn't find, I my my
01:27:52 house that I couldn't find, I my my response was always, who's been in my house?
01:27:56 house? And that is a really hard thing to live with. And something happens that you just get used to it. It becomes a new norm.
01:28:09 norm. And it's only when you look when I've looked back that I realize that how much of an impact that is. Yeah.
01:28:14 Yeah. And for me, I would say it's completely and utterly annihilated my any sense of trust.
01:28:19 trust. It's annihilated my trust in the state, in the police. I don't know where I would go if something happened to me. Um,
01:28:24 Um, I think it affected my mental health. Um, I well I don't think I know it affected my mental
01:28:35 think I know it affected my mental health. It affected my a concentration and ability to relax. And that is ongoing to this day. That's never returned to the level that it was at before.
01:28:42 before. Um,
01:28:45 Um, and I just feel like my life's been invaded again and again and again. And I've written that in my report. You know, we've had for something that was not of my
01:28:55 not of my doing. You know, I've had police psychiatrists questioning me. I've had
01:29:06 psychiatrists questioning me. I've had all my medical records gone through very personal details of my life apart from the what
01:29:11 the what James Thompson witnessed in my own life. I went through some very serious decisions about my spiritual life that he was privy to, you know, parts of my life that are so private or or intimate. So I think
01:29:24 So I think yeah, it's just trying to think if there's anything else I want to say on that. Yeah.
01:29:29 Yeah. Yeah.
01:29:34 Yeah. You know, it's always been triggering to see the police around and things like that. Um
01:29:38 that. Um it's affected my trust not just on the police but in general and and that is also ongoing. That's never gone away completely. Um
01:29:52 I think you also say in your witness statement that you think you don't need to go into any detail but you think it also affected your marriage. I I think so because there was always that that going on in the background,
01:30:03 that that going on in the background, you know, it came to the four a lot, you know. I mean, I'm out burning journals at 5:00 in the morning in 2013 and I was still married at that point, but you know, for that whole period, it never really Yeah.
01:30:15 Yeah. really went away. So, yeah, I do think it could have done. um
01:30:24 and the the I don't know the shock, you know, of of of the absolute disregard. You know, one of the major things for me
01:30:35 You know, one of the major things for me is that the UCOs were asked if they were ever concerned about the women finding out. And I understand it's not just me that this is the answer is about, but that they have said and I know that he said no, he never worried about us
01:30:49 said no, he never worried about us finding out because they were being kept private. Nowhere nowhere is there any consideration of what would happen when the relationships had to break up.
01:31:01 the relationships had to break up. So all they were concerned about was whether or not they were going to get found out. So they weren't worried about that because they were protected. But nowhere is there the remorse about what would
01:31:12 is there the remorse about what would happen to us when when they had to break the relationship. Yeah.
01:31:15 Yeah. And for me it was two years. For other women it's been five. And I think that is a fundamental thing that and I'm sure it's been noted with all the other women that have given evidence.
01:31:25 evidence. But there is no I read that he has remorse about the effect he's had on the family of Kevin Crossland. Bitter regret or something he writes. I don't read that about what what's happened to myself and Ellie or Wendy come to that.
01:31:46 Finally, sorry, I just want to give you an opportunity briefly. I want to bring your attention to the reaction within the MPS and the SDS when they found out that James Thompson had had sexual
01:31:57 that James Thompson had had sexual relationships. And just to give you the opportunity to comment on that and on what appears to be evidence of advice
01:32:10 what appears to be evidence of advice that was being imparted within the unit at that time. Uh you comment in your witness statement on the tradecraft manual and I know you were taken to that the the relevant paragraph of the tradecraft manual which was published around April May 1996. So
01:32:26 published around April May 1996. So around the time that James Thompson entered the SDS and the guidance that was given there, this had the status of informal guidance but there is very I mean new recruits
01:32:40 but there is very I mean new recruits were encouraged to read it and they were direct directed towards it and I'll just read it out. Um it's at 5.63. Oh, I should add also this was written by Andrew Coohl's
01:32:55 written by Andrew Coohl's who Jessica you know you know who he is. Um and it says this at 5.6.3. While you may try to avoid any sexual encounter there may come a time when your lack of interest may become
01:33:06 your lack of interest may become suspicious. In these circumstances, you can either try to introduce an appropriate male or female from your own relations or friends to meet the weareries on a few occasions or ask the office if they can find an ex SDS operative to fill such a role. Both
01:33:17 operative to fill such a role. Both options are fraught with difficulty and
01:33:26 options are fraught with difficulty and you must make up your own mind about how to proceed. If you have no other option but to become involved with the weary, you should try to have fleeting disastrous relationships with individuals who are not important to your sources of information. I just wanted to give you the opportunity to comment on that.
01:33:43 So it goes back to the question when the inquiry lawyers first came to visit me after having that letter that my question to them was how far up the line does this go that this was authorized and I put in a formal complaint about that. Um so
01:33:56 that. Um so my feeling all along was yes they were in I mean that for me is encouragement to have relationships and
01:34:07 and having you know having just listened to what I've said and to all the other women have said I find that utterly misogynistic and outrageous.
01:34:19 misogynistic and outrageous. Um I'd like to take you to another piece of evidence. Um, this is a little bit complicated, but I I'm not sure if you understand or you you've been made aware of this, but that HN16 James Thompson had a mentor when James Thompson was in
01:34:33 had a mentor when James Thompson was in the STS, and this mentor was N1, who had the cover name Matt Raina. Mhm. Um I don't know if you watched uh HM1's evidence
01:34:43 evidence um but he admitted to sexual relationships, deceitful sexual relationships um in particular with Denise Fuller.
01:34:58 um in particular with Denise Fuller. He was HN16's mentor at the time that HN sorry James Thompson was deployed. Um, James Thompson says that he's unable to rec recollect having any conversations with HN1 about his sexual relationships while undercover. But there is a document. I'm not going
01:35:13 But there is a document. I'm not going to take you to it because it'll become too late, but there's a document that shows that HN1 was aware, at least around May 2002, that James Thompson had had sexual relationships. Yeah.
01:35:24 had sexual relationships. Yeah. And for the transcript, I'll just read that out. That's MPS0719806.
01:35:36 And we know from that that HN1 informed DI HN53 of that fact. And I'll come to even more senior management in a moment. But now another
01:35:50 management in a moment. But now another officer, HN14, this is Jim Boiling, who also had I think three or four sexual relationships um in his undercover identity. Uh he says this in his witness statement about what HN1 said to him and HN1 at
01:36:04 about what HN1 said to him and HN1 at that time was still in the SDS but he was HN14's mentor just bearing that in mind. So this is a man who mentored subsequently James Johnson but he also mentored Jim
01:36:15 James Johnson but he also mentored Jim Boiling. This is what Jim Boiling said HM1 said to him. Uh sorry and this is not actually on Epic. We can't bring this up for the transcript. This is Jim Boiling's
01:36:27 transcript. This is Jim Boiling's witness statement is paragraph 37. He says, "I remember HN1 was particularly candid because he was my field mentor. I over overlapped slightly with HM1 who ceased to deployment I think sometime in 1996. He had been in a
01:36:44 think sometime in 1996. He had been in a relationship when deployed and discussed this with me. I remember him saying words to the effect of that as an undercover you were never going to break through the glass ceiling of acceptance. You were never going to get the acceptance of the inner circle unless they had confidence in you. And this
01:36:57 they had confidence in you. And this would not be forthcoming if you were perceived to be a single man living alone. Confidence could come from seeing you in a relationship with a fellow activist. This discussion with HM1 was my pre-eployment was pre my deployment
01:37:10 my pre-eployment was pre my deployment when in the back office and in the early months of my deployment. This was similar to discussions with other previously deployed and currently deployed undercover officers. It was not
01:37:21 deployed undercover officers. It was not considered to be a major issue as it now is.
01:37:25 is. So this goes further than trade craft. This is in essence encouraging sexual relationships as a way of breaking through. I wanted to give you the opportunity to comment on that.
01:37:46 I just I find it difficult to comment on it. I think we've said it all. It's yeah,
01:37:50 yeah, it's um for me it's just unbelievable a that there was no consideration for the impact that would have on us whatsoever. There was no consideration given to their wives and partners. Um
01:38:01 given to their wives and partners. Um and I also my understanding is as you said it was known I thought it was 2001 but in 2002 that he was having relationships and it was decided not to be divulged to us to protect the SDF.
01:38:17 be divulged to us to protect the SDF. though for 17 years of my life earlier I could have known that and been saved quite a lot of distress actually
01:38:25 actually but it seems that there's no importance given to the impact on us whatsoever in any of this and I find that abhorrent and shocking
01:38:36 that abhorrent and shocking and I have a lot more to say about that but um
01:38:38 but um you get the picture I absolutely do I mean just very finally on this point uh I think you're aware that when James Thompson's misuse of his cover identity, his
01:38:53 misuse of his cover identity, his unauthorized trips became known within the SDS, he then was subject to some sort of dis disciplinary process and he was interviewed
01:39:06 was interviewed in September 2002. There were several interviews, but the final one took place on the 18th of September 2002. He was interviewed by det sorry detective chief superintendent black and detective superintendent McCluck. I'm not going to
01:39:19 superintendent McCluck. I'm not going to bring up the document but just again for the transcript the references MPS07289.
01:39:30 It's a S10, so in case you want to look at it. But it's clear from this document that
01:39:34 that Detective Chief Superintendent Black knew that he had had sexual relationships while undercover. So that is referred to on page 11. I'll read it out. He says, "I've explained to DS Thompson." No,
01:39:47 "I've explained to DS Thompson." No, apologies. That's actually the wrong bit. He says, Yeah, page 11 on the penultimate paragraph of that page. Detective Chief Superintendent Blank Black Black says in addition to the
01:40:01 Black Black says in addition to the issues raised above, namely all the things that uh the breaches of discipline that James Thompson committed during his deployment in addition to the issues raised by it is clear that he has
01:40:12 issues raised by it is clear that he has entered into relationships in the course of his work which are inappropriate. So that's evidence that he knew then. Yeah.
01:40:18 Yeah. But the sanction that James Thompson, DS Thompson at that time received, this is on page 11, his operation is to stop forth with his vetting status will be reduced and
01:40:32 vetting status will be reduced and reviewed and that for now he will work under close supervision on a squad. I have told him he's come very close to central discipline and criminal investigations and that if if it were not for the secret nature of the
01:40:43 not for the secret nature of the operation and the need to protect his colleagues, he would be long gone. So that's as far as that went. I just wondered whether you wanted to comment on that. I appreciate you said a lot on this topic already.
01:40:54 this topic already. Yeah. Yeah. No, I have no further comment. Um just to sum up Sara,
01:41:05 Um just to sum up Sara, um it's it's not entirely clear on the evidence whether James Thompson was married when he was deployed, but it's not in dispute that he was in a serious
01:41:18 not in dispute that he was in a serious long-term sexual relationship. Would you have entered into a sexual relationship with him had you known that? No.
01:41:29 No. Um, would you have consented to a sexual relationship with James Thompson had you known that your relationship with him had no future at all? No.
01:41:36 No. Would you have consented to a sexual relationship with James Thompson had you known he was an undercover police officer?
01:41:36 officer? No.
01:41:40 No. Those are all the questions I have for you.
01:41:43 you. Thank you. Um, thank you. There are no rule 10 questions as I understand it. No, sir.
01:41:54 No, sir. Thank you. Um, would you uh uh wish to re-examine and if so, now or after a break?
01:42:04 That's up to you. Um, and Sara quite um I'm not sure quite how long you're likely to be. That may influence her view about matter. I don't have very many questions. Um but um Sarah will know what she wants to say.
01:42:15 say. If it's okay, Sarah, would I would like to have a short break? Of course. Um is 10 minutes enough or would you like a quarter of an hour? Perfect. Thank you. 10 minutes. Right. We'll break for 10 minutes.
01:42:24 minutes. Okay.
01:54:27 Um, I just so you know, John, I've been asked to clarify something. Yes.
01:54:42 Yes. Hello, Sarah. Just before we pass you over to your council, um I just need to clarify something for the record. When I referred previously to uh the document MPS07289,
01:55:01 uh that's S10, sir, pages 10 to 12. And this is a note of the interview between DCS Black and Detective Superintendent Mlacklin with
01:55:15 Detective Superintendent Mlacklin with James Thompson. And I referred to a note made by DCS Black on page 11 which said in addition to the issues raised above, it is clear that he as in James Thompson has entered into relationships in the course of his work
01:55:33 relationships in the course of his work which are inappropriate. I said that was evidence that DCS Black knew. I should have said it suggests that DCS Black knew that James Thompson engaged in sexual relationships. And I should have emphasized that we have yet to hear from former Detective Chief Superintendent
01:55:45 former Detective Chief Superintendent Black on what he understood that to mean at the time. Thank you. Let's go.
01:55:56 Sara, um before I turn to my questions, there is just one point of clarification
01:56:08 there is just one point of clarification that you were asked about um in relation to the second trip to Goa. Do you have the cipher list in front of you? Uh yes.
01:56:13 Uh yes. Uh you said that there were some individuals with you on that trip who were on that cipher list. Um, are you able to to indicate without saying their names which ones on this list?
01:56:28 names which ones on this list? Okay, I think I said M1 already.
01:56:29 already. Yeah.
01:56:29 Yeah. Yes.
01:56:30 Yes. And then if we go down
01:56:44 um to the last paragraph relevant to the following document MPS 0527635. Yes.
01:56:47 Yes. Um on the first line. Yes, the first two names.
01:57:05 Um, and then on the third line, page 13, it says the first one again, the second one, and the fourth name, and that's it. So on this second reference to page 13, the first name, the second one, and the fourth one.
01:57:22 fourth one. Oh, who I remember were out were not on the trip with us, but were were out there living there. So that I can follow this. Um, could someone provide me with a copy of the list from which you're working? Yeah, very confused.
01:57:34 very confused. Would you like If I could borrow it, I will give it back to you. Thank you.
01:58:33 Are the underlinings here? Are they of significance?
01:58:39 Those were the ones that we understood Sara to be referring to? Ah, yes I I follow. So uh in but in addition to that L1 Yes.
01:59:01 It may be possible to check that after the event. Yes,
01:59:04 Yes, just in case there's been a misunderstanding. Certainly, there's no reason at all why that shouldn't be done behind the scenes.
01:59:17 Can I give it back to you? Thank you.
01:59:39 Um Sara, you have um spoken today um about the period of time between the end of the relationship um and finding out that Thompson was an undercover officer and what she described just now as the 17 years of
01:59:51 described just now as the 17 years of distress. stress that you were caused um as a result of not knowing when you could have been told. Is there anything more that you want to say about that?
02:00:06 Um
02:00:13 I find that incredible. I don't I'm sort of beyond words on that really. I just find it incredible that there There was no importance given to the impact on our life.
02:00:30 Do you want to say describe in any more detail than you have what that impact was
02:00:32 was when you had ended the relationship? Um but you were and you were processing the confusion that um Thompson's behavior caused you
02:00:44 caused you during those 17 years out uni. Yes. Um
02:00:47 Yes. Um I would say yeah just to reiterate there was so much confusion
02:00:53 confusion about
02:00:58 about you know the fact that he went on into another relationship. Um it made me doubt my own it affected my own self-esteem enormously.
02:01:09 enormously. Um,
02:01:11 Um, it made me question what that was all about. Again, confusion. I suppose what I'm saying again is confusion. And I I the other one is the guilt that I carried. Feeling awful that I had
02:01:27 I carried. Feeling awful that I had betrayed him by talking about what was in that letter. Um, and
02:01:33 and I think the dreams for me, you know, I mean, I I have had other
02:01:44 you know, I mean, I I have had other relationships and been able to move on from them with the usual healing. And there was something for me that just impacted my life were the dreams. Just keep having these distressing dreams that he would always
02:01:56 distressing dreams that he would always come and then be disappearing off again. And I was just left in this shattered state wondering what was going on. It affected my psyche in ways that it it's
02:02:11 affected my psyche in ways that it it's difficult to put it into words, but it I just never could get my head around it. And I think if I'd have known that in 2000, you know, very close to when the
02:02:25 know, very close to when the relationship ended, it it could have made a big difference to my life and my mental health actually.
02:02:35 Thank you. And are there any other matters that you would like to speak to the inquiry about?
02:02:43 the inquiry about? Um, yeah, there's a few. I had I had quite a long list. So, I'm glad to say that a lot of that was covered during the questioning and I was able to be clear on it. There's maybe four maybe four things. Um, one of the things I want to pick up on is that he James
02:02:54 want to pick up on is that he James Thompson says in his statement that he had he was only ever a close associate of um Wendy and I refute that. He was a very they were very good friends and I'm
02:03:06 very they were very good friends and I'm sure she would say the same. So, that is not true. They had a good friendship. Um, so I just want to point that out. That was a much stronger association than he's claiming in that in his statement.
02:03:22 statement. Um, I think the other thing that really concerns me and I brought this up I think in 2021 when we did mediation with Helen B.
02:03:33 Helen B. Um, and this was shortly after the Sarah Everard case, and there was talk about the Metropolitan Police putting undercover I can't even say this. So, we're going to
02:03:44 can't even say this. So, we're going to put undercover officers in nightclubs to protect women. And for me, I'm really, please do not put those men in charge of our safety
02:03:55 our safety ever. And I just want to be clear on that. I found that so shocking after what they've done to put them in charge of women's safety anywhere
02:04:06 anywhere is unthinkable.
02:04:12 Um, and I'm I am sure that it's clear, not just from my statement and my evidence, but from the other women that it's clear how how you realize how truly shat
02:04:26 how how you realize how truly shat shattering these relationships are. They're shattering. Um,
02:04:30 Um, and I also want to say it's been a journey, you know, of of
02:04:42 it's been a journey, you know, of of recovery. And I I thought I was getting there, but I see from today that the impact is still there, how deeply impacted my life has been by them. And please do not allow this to happen
02:04:53 please do not allow this to happen again. And I'm standing here for other women. And I wouldn't be here for any other reason. And please do not allow this to happen again. And that's all I have to say. Thank you.
02:05:05 Thank you, S. I I don't have any other questions.
02:05:17 As I'm sure you know, I am not in charge of policing. And although I can make my own views clear to those who are um uh
02:05:30 own views clear to those who are um uh all I can do like you is to hope that uh your views and mine will be paid heed to.
02:05:35 to. May I conclude by thanking you for taking the very great trouble and putting yourself more than to great deal more than inconvenience and and worry but putting yourself through what is plainly a difficult process in giving
02:05:52 plainly a difficult process in giving live evidence to me at the inquiry. It has been of immense value. I'm very grateful to you for doing it. Thank you. Thank you, Sam. Thank you.
02:06:03 We will resume at 10:00 on Monday.