Sara (anonymized witness) testifies about her sexual relationship with undercover officer HN16 James Straven (real name James Thompson). She was involved with Croydon Hunt Saboteurs from 1998-2000 in a support role. HN16 deceived her into a year-long intimate relationship (late 1998-1999) while living two streets from his real wife and children. Sara describes Operation Lime - a trip to France where HN16 claimed to acquire a firearm with another activist, though Sara was unaware of this alleged purpose. The testimony reveals extensive lies about his age, job, and living situation.
00:31:34 Good morning everybody.
00:31:44 Those of you who are in the hearing room may use uh devices, electronic devices
00:31:56 may use uh devices, electronic devices to transmit outside uh what they hear in the room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed. They may not be used for recording or photography. Uh there is a there are reporting restriction orders applicable to uh the
00:32:08 restriction orders applicable to uh the open hearings. Would uh everybody please read them uh in case they apply on any particular day. I don't anticipate they will do today but there may arise a moment when they do.
00:32:21 Can uh Sarah be sworn please?
00:32:31 Good morning, Sarah. Um, I'm the usher Jane, and I will take you through the affirmation. So, if you'd like to repeat after me, please. I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly
00:32:45 sincerely, and truly I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm. Sorry.
00:32:46 Sorry. declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth
00:32:57 the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you. Thank you. Um good morning Sarah. I'm call you that because you are anonymized. Um, thank you for agreeing
00:33:12 anonymized. Um, thank you for agreeing to give evidence. Uh, I know that it can be a struggle for people in your position. If at any time during the course of the day you want a break, ask for it and I will immediately give it. Thank you.
00:33:23 Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Throughout this hearing, I will refer to you as Sara because your real name has been restricted for privacy.
00:33:34 been restricted for privacy. Sara, do you recall providing a witness statement to the inquiry dated the 30th of May, 2025? Yes.
00:33:44 Yes. Are you familiar with the contents of that statement? I am.
00:33:48 I am. And can you confirm that the contents of that statement are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes, I can.
00:33:58 So Sara, we're going to look first at Cud and Hunt saboturs and your activities with them and their activities. And we will move on to a trip you made
00:34:10 And we will move on to a trip you made to France with the man you knew as James Straven that the STS refer to as Operation Lime and then we will move on to the sexual relationship with James Straven.
00:34:20 Straven. So, first just by way of brief background, in your witness statement,
00:34:33 background, in your witness statement, you assert that your first experience in animal rights activism was handing out leaflets about kangaroo meat in Sainsburries. Yeah, that's correct. And your interest in animal welfare led to your joining Cuden Hunt saboturs around 1998.
00:34:44 around 1998. Yeah.
00:34:48 Yeah. Can you assist us with when in 1998 roughly that was? No, I can't remember exactly when it was.
00:34:57 was. Um, how did you find out about Cud and Hunt saboturs? Um, through um somebody that was involved in in the Cuden Hunt saboturs at the time. And
00:35:08 And when you refer to joining Cud and Hunt saboturs, what did that actually mean in practice?
00:35:15 practice? Um it just meant being being um talking to the people that were running it to say that I'd like to go along. So it wasn't like a join in. Sure. Fine.
00:35:27 Sure. Fine. Per say. Yeah. It was just being being um you know permitted to come and do it. Just asking and being allowed to join as in turn up to do the the hunts. Yeah.
00:35:38 the hunts. Yeah. Yeah. So if I understand correctly, it was just about participating on SAS. Wasn't you didn't have meetings as part of the joint sorry as part of the sabotur group
00:35:53 sabotur group and was it easy to join up as it were? Were they welcoming? Were they keen? Um, yes. And also I think because I knew somebody that was already part of that. Yeah.
00:36:03 Yeah. That made it easier. I understand. So it gave you gave you an in.
00:36:07 in. Yeah.
00:36:15 Yeah. You say in your witness statement that you started going out on SABS late autumn 98. So is it right to assume that that's round about the time you actually joined as well? Autumn 98.
00:36:27 as well? Autumn 98. Yeah. Yeah. Um
00:36:33 and was there a social scene associated with Cyden Hunts? Yes, there was. Yeah. There's a reference in your witness statement when you talk about meeting
00:36:44 statement when you talk about meeting James Straven. You mentioned going to the pub with members of the group. Would you go to the pub regularly as a group?
00:36:55 you go to the pub regularly as a group? Yeah. And that would have been after we had been out on a Saturday or Sunday on a hunt and we would usually um stop off at the pub on the way home.
00:37:12 at the pub on the way home. I understand. Um, and was the core participant that we are referring to as Wendy, was she a part of that scene, that social scene? Yeah.
00:37:13 Yeah. And the group, did you become friends with Wendy through your involvement in Cud and Hunts? Or did you know her already?
00:37:31 I can't I think I knew her already through the friend that introduced me to the Hunt Saboturss.
00:37:39 And you became close friends with Wendy. Is that accurate? Yeah.
00:37:51 You started volunteering at the wildlife hospital that Wendy worked at. Did you arrange that through Wendy? I can't remember. I would imagine so. Yes.
00:37:58 Yes. Um
00:38:03 Um Sarah, I think you've got a cipher list with you. Um, I'm just going to refer you to some people on that that are being referred to as L1, L2, L3, and L4. Yeah.
00:38:14 Yeah. Were they members of Cordon Hunt Sabotars?
00:38:15 Sabotars? Yes, they were. And were they part of the social scene associated with Cuden Hunt saboturs? Yes.
00:38:26 Yes. Did you get to know these people well? Um,
00:38:28 Um, reasonably well. They weren't super close friends, but they were part of the group.
00:38:35 group. And when you went to the pub, they would be there
00:38:36 be there sometimes. Yeah. Would you describe Cud and Hunts as a close-knit group?
00:38:48 close-knit group? Um, yes, I suppose so. Yeah, certain certain people were close.
00:38:59 The power base profile of James Straven says that four or five people from the Cuden Hunt saboturs lived in a communal house. Is that your recollection?
00:39:12 I can't remember it being four or five. I can't remember. Do you remember socializing with members of Cud and Hunt saboturs at their homes in private? Very rarely. I think I went there maybe once.
00:39:22 once. Right.
00:39:24 Right. Um, moving now, Sara, to your level of involvement in the stabbing scene. You say in your witness statement that you
00:39:37 say in your witness statement that you took part in only 15 or so SABs between 1998 and 2000. And you say that you weren't out in the field much.
00:39:49 field much. Um, when you say in the field, do you mean by that spraying citronanella on the dogs, confronting the hunters, the shark of
00:40:01 the shark of savage? Yeah, I was mainly in in the van. I wasn't I wasn't out in the countryside with them. Why were you mainly in the van and not in the countryside? I couldn't keep up with them. Sorry. Sorry I interrupted you.
00:40:17 Sorry. Sorry I interrupted you. um level of fitness for me really was um probably the primary thing. But you did go in the field a bit I understand from your witness statement.
00:40:29 understand from your witness statement. I think I went the first couple of times and just found it too hard physically.
00:40:39 physically. Um you've referred to Yes. you would map read in the van when you were out on the hunt and that you would keep in touch with the sabs in the field and then you'd coordinate with them and pick them up. Um, kept in touch with them. How did you do that with walkie-talkies or with phones?
00:40:54 phones? I can't remember. It could have been with mobile phones. I think it would have depended where we were, right? Um, did we have walkie-talkies? We might have had radios. Yeah.
00:41:00 Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:01 Yeah. Um
00:41:07 Um so in essence after the first your first couple of
00:41:11 couple of sabbing experiences you took on is it fair to say a support role in the sabbing activities rather than a
00:41:24 what would have been going out with them? Um if you mean support as in supporting them while they were in the field then yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you recall when in 2000 you stopped sabbing?
00:41:43 Probably right towards the end until until I left the country. Um that's preempted my next question. Sara. So is that why you stopped sabbing because you were preparing for that move abroad?
00:41:53 abroad? Yeah.
00:42:02 Looking now at James Straven's account of your levels of involvement, Sara. Um, if we could bring up please his witness statement which is UCPI 3553,
00:42:11 3553, page 99.
00:42:17 It's paragraphs um 261 and 262.
00:42:31 Sorry, we're just waiting for the document to come up.
00:42:59 Sara, while we're waiting, I'll read it out. I'll just read out the re. It's just a short extract here. It's up. Um, so paragraph 261, he says this. I do recall Sara. She was an occasional hunt
00:43:12 recall Sara. She was an occasional hunt sab interested in animal rights, but not an extremist. Mhm.
00:43:20 Mhm. 262. I do not remember how I first met Sara, but it was probably on a huntsab. She was about and part of the animal rights huntsab group, but not a radical or violent one, and she was not a part of any inner clique.
00:43:35 of any inner clique. First, was there an inner clique within the Cuden Hunt savvars that you were aware of?
00:43:41 aware of? I wouldn't say there was an inner clique. There were groups of friends within the within the group. Um his inference seems to be there was an inner clique that was radical and
00:43:52 an inner clique that was radical and violent. Were you aware of the existence of anything like that? No.
00:43:56 No. Um he goes on she was entirely sincere in her beliefs and despite her own reservations and personality and any risk to her career, she was prepared to risk arrest in pursuit of these. Is that accurate?
00:44:07 accurate? Yes, that's accurate.
00:44:13 He continues, "She was not fully committed to the violent struggle and would not have countenance doing serious harm to humans or property." Is that accurate? That's accurate.
00:44:28 That's accurate. Um, there's an inference on one reading where he says, "You were not fully committed to the violent struggle and would not have countened serious harm." It could be read as meaning that you were slightly committed to the violent
00:44:42 were slightly committed to the violent struggle and you might have countenanced minor harm. Is that accurate? That would have been part of being a hunt lab sabotur in general. Yeah.
00:44:55 hunt lab sabotur in general. Yeah. So can you elaborate on that just a little bit? So by that what do you mean? Do you mean
00:45:07 Do you mean that could have been verbal shouting on either side from us or the hunt? Yeah. Um, it could have been possibly being attacked on the field, right?
00:45:10 right? Um, or even in the van. So, there was always going to be a risk of that happening with high emotions around from both sides. Sure. And what about criminal damage?
00:45:23 Sure. And what about criminal damage? That would happen if you needed to go and trespass or get into somewhere. It's pos possible that could happen. Um he goes on in his witness statements. He said that she did however accept the value in home visits I uh sorry in home
00:45:40 value in home visits I uh sorry in home visits where these were related to live import and export of animals laboratories or similar.
00:45:46 Is that accurate?
00:45:54 Um, I could see the value of doing it, but I didn't particularly agree with that. We'll explore home visits in a little more detail later on, but did you participate in them? No, I didn't.
00:46:15 Do you have any idea of what took place when members of Cud and Hunt Sabatar went on home visits? No. Apart from the only thing I would remember that I was told was there could be some verbal abuse,
00:46:27 be some verbal abuse, right? But that's all you were told about what took place. Yeah.
00:46:35 To what extent was there a perception within members of Cuden Hunt saboturs that home visits were effective in that for example Hillgrove Cat Farm was shut down. Was
00:46:51 Hillgrove Cat Farm was shut down. Was there a general perception as far as you were aware that that was in part due to home visits to Not that I'm aware of. No. Um I'm just going to read to you just the extract from HN16's witness
00:47:10 the extract from HN16's witness statement on home visits just to see if any of it rings any bells. Um this is again same document. It's page 67 and it's paragraph 179.1.
00:47:22 And he says this about home visits. He describes them thus. A home visit consisted of a number of animal rights supporters turning up at the home of an employee, close family or supporter of the farm, dressed in black, wearing
00:47:34 the farm, dressed in black, wearing balaclavas, and running up to the house, banging on the doors and windows, shouting abuse. Usually timed when the
00:47:45 shouting abuse. Usually timed when the homeowner was returning home there from work. Occasionally, this would include causing damage to a car or house or house windows or the garden. Those involved would then make a quick exit.
00:47:58 From what you heard about home visits, does that chime with the description that HN16 provides?
00:48:09 Um, yeah, I would say probably where they would be dressed in black, I would imagine. Um, banging on doors on windows, probably shouting abuse. Yeah, I don't know about damage to the property. I'd never heard about that.
00:48:29 property. I'd never heard about that. Moving now, Sara, to HN HN16, James Straven's reporting on you. There's very little in which he mentions you, but if we could bring up MPS01923.
00:48:45 So this is a B1. Uh this is a report dated the 29th of March 1999.
00:48:52 It says the Cuden Hunt saboturs are forging close ties with the Privacy Animal Sanctuary in location. Wendy, the girlfriend of privacy, has just started
00:49:03 girlfriend of privacy, has just started working at the sanctuary as a full-time fundraiser, while Sara is also engaged there as a part-time nurse. In the near future, the entire SAB group will be attending the sanctuary to assist in the construction of a duck pond.
00:49:21 Can you comment, Sara, on the accuracy of
00:49:22 of James Draven's description of your role at the sanctuary? Yeah, I wouldn't say I was a nurse. I was more of a assistant in helping with with cleaning animal
00:49:34 in helping with with cleaning animal cages and things like that. So, I wasn't a nurse. I wasn't a qualified nurse. Understood. Um Wendy also comments in her witness statement on this intelligence report and she says that
00:49:47 intelligence report and she says that there were no plans to have the entire SAB group come to the hospital and that only a few of the group knew anything about that hospital. Would you agree with that? I would agree with that.
00:50:05 I would agree with that. Um, don't worry if you can't remember, but this matter that he mentions of the construction of a duck pond. Do you recall that James Straven was involved in constructing that pond? I have no recolle recollection of a duck pond anyway.
00:50:19 pond anyway. Do you have a recollection of any construction work taking place at the sanctuary? None. No.
00:50:21 None. No. um
00:50:24 um two other reports which are I mean not identical but very similar in content. Um I'll bring up one of them MPS0 2LE 5. Sir, this is at B2.
00:50:44 And this is a James Stroven report dated the 6th of September 1999.
00:50:53 And it reads, "Following the demise of his beloved Citroen BX L1 has now purchased SAR's vehicle, a light blue Ford Escort registration and then redacted VRN."
00:51:06 redacted VRN." And there's another report that's very similar to that. Can you comment on the accuracy of this report?
00:51:16 report? I did have a light blue escort. I can't remember the registration, but I don't remember selling it to L1. Do are you saying that that's untrue or you simply don't remember? I I would say it's untrue. I think I would remember. Yeah.
00:51:30 would remember. Yeah. Um, we'll look now at a management document. This is MPS07389,
00:51:37 page 4, paragraph 2. Sir, it's at B9.
00:51:48 And yes, page four, paragraph 2. This document's undated, but it appears to have been written soon after the 20th of November, 2001.
00:52:02 after the 20th of November, 2001. And it's written by an SDSDS called Noel War.
00:52:07 War. And from the date obviously this was after you'd moved abroad Sara. Um so if we look at B sorry on page four yeah that where it says C that's it. Thank you
00:52:23 it reads thus Sara the owner of Gist address.
00:52:24 address. However, Sara is currently out of the UK. During this time, this address is rented out and Sara uses gisted another
00:52:38 rented out and Sara uses gisted another address as a UK base. This address is at least a couple of streets further over. However, it seems likely that on finally returning to the UK, Sara will retake
00:52:54 returning to the UK, Sara will retake possession of address. Sara when in the UK has been a regular hunt sabotur and peripherally involved with several campaigns that MT, as in magenta triangle, which is James Troven's code name, has been closely associated with.
00:53:05 name, has been closely associated with. She was also the one-time girlfriend of his close associate, L1. Like Privacy Above, it seems optimistic to suppose she would not recognize MT. And the case is worse as such a
00:53:19 And the case is worse as such a compromise is more likely to occur in the residential streets near his children's address. First, Sara, please, can you comment on the accuracy of your being the one-time girlfriend of L1?
00:53:30 girlfriend of L1? That's absolute rubbish. I was never his girlfriend.
00:53:44 Were you good friends with him? I was friends but there was never any any um was never his girlfriend ever. Um and
00:53:47 Um and can you also please comment on the the accuracy of when you finally returned to the UK retaking possession of your address in Sutton?
00:54:00 address in Sutton? No. And I've sold that before I before I left the country which he would have been aware of. He knew that. Yeah. I was still he we were still friends when I left the country
00:54:12 friends when I left the country and he was privy to your selling that flat.
00:54:12 flat. Yeah.
00:54:19 Um looking now at one of HN16 James Straven's early witness statements that he provided to the chair. Um this is UCPI 35199.
00:54:36 Sir, this is in your supplemental bundle S11
00:54:45 S11 and it's dated the 16th of October 2017. If we look at page one, the second paragraph, it's a little way through the
00:54:55 sorry, no, that's not the right paragraph. Um,
00:55:02 yes, sorry, the third paragraph. And just a few lines down, he says, "Sara and Wendy may be dealt with together." As the risk assessor notes, they were in relationships with individuals that were central parts of my network and shared
00:55:20 central parts of my network and shared addresses with them. I would have called these numbers to talk to L1 or privacy. I did not have an appropriate relationship with these females. We've established that you were never in a relationship with L1. Yeah.
00:55:31 Yeah. Um,
00:55:35 Um, was Wendy ever in a relationship with L1?
00:55:36 L1? Not that I'm aware of.
00:55:45 Can you comment, please, Sara, on the accuracy of the assertion in this witness statement that you shared an address with either L1 or
00:55:56 you shared an address with either L1 or privacy. I'm not sure if you're aware of who lies under that privacy redaction. Don't worry if not. But did you ever share an address? No, I didn't share an address with anybody.
00:56:06 anybody. With anybody? So at no point? No.
00:56:09 No. Did you live with another member of Cud and Hunt sabotage? No, not at all. No.
00:56:21 No, not at all. No. And at any stage did James Straven ring you in order to speak to L1 or another Hunt Sabat? No.
00:56:40 We'll look now at some other management documents. Sara, these relate to James Straven's extraction plan. So, his extraction from the field
00:56:44 uh MPS 09486.
00:56:53 So, this is at B4. It's dated. It's predates the one we just looked at. So it's dated the 2nd of June 2000. This is also written by DS null war
00:57:03 null war page two uh paragraph three and at yeah by number three sorry yeah that's it. Um,
00:57:20 he writes here, "Sara, a Brixton Hunt sabotur and former girlfriend of privacy,
00:57:25 privacy, lives in a flat near Magenta Triangle's real ex-wife and children. Just for the avoidance of doubt, Sara, were you ever a member of Brixton Hunt sabotage?" No, I was not.
00:57:41 No, I was not. Uh, the bit about former girlfriend of privacy. Uh, have you got a copy of this document? So you can see under that privacy reduction. No.
00:57:47 No. Um I understand that the person under that we won't mention any names but the person under that privacy reduction is the person with whom you had a casual relationship in 2000. Okay.
00:57:57 Okay. Um
00:58:02 Um now this document was written in early June 2000. He claims in this document you were a former girlfriend of this individual. Were you at that time a former
00:58:17 Were you at that time a former girlfriend of this individual or were you still in a relationship? Um
00:58:23 it that relationship which was a casual relationship didn't start until around about the end of June, middle to the end of June 2000.
00:58:32 Thank you.
00:58:37 [Applause] If we could bring up please another management document. This is MPS0749475.
00:58:49 Sir is it B5? This is a file note from HN16 James Straven's manager, his DCI HN58,
00:59:01 HN58, and it's dated the 11th of July 2000. So it's a little bit written a little bit after that one. we just looked at and he says this in the first paragraph. On Monday the 10th of July, I had a further discussion with Magenta Triangle
00:59:21 further discussion with Magenta Triangle regarding his withdrawal strategy and in particular aspects relating to his work potential threat from Sara and his father in averted commas.
00:59:29 How do you feel, Sara, about being described as presenting a potential threat to
00:59:32 threat to James Straven at this stage? Um, I think that's very unfair and unjust. I don't understand why I would have been a threat.
00:59:48 have been a threat. His father, does he mean her father? No, he means it it's to do with his cover story. Don't worry about that. He's referring to and his his cover father as it were. Um then three paragraphs down please.
01:00:04 Um yes, sorry just the second paragraph in that chunk. Magenta Triangle's ex-wife lives at redacted Sutton while Sara lives in a flat Privacy just
01:00:17 Sara lives in a flat Privacy just nearby. She currently works in Sutton at Privacy.
01:00:21 Privacy. I said that we would do some research to establish route to work, etc.
01:00:34 First, Sara, did James Straven ever say anything to you about where his ex-wife and three children lived? No.
01:00:43 This document suggests that HN58 was going to research your route into work. Mhm. Do you want to comment on that? Um, I only realized that a couple of weeks ago and I found that quite
01:00:54 weeks ago and I found that quite shocking. That's all I wanted to say.
01:01:06 shocking. That's all I wanted to say. Um, I I don't want to labor the point. I just want you to take you to one other document. It's a little unclear, but we'll explore it briefly. Um, this is an a debrief that HN16 wrote after he'd left the field shortly after. It's MPS07LE282
01:01:20 page 10. It's S1, sir.
01:01:34 Page 10. It again, it's undated, but it would appear to be written sometime after the 1st of April 2002, around June 2002.
01:01:43 Um, so on page 10 after C, he says this. Due to circumstances beyond anyone's control, a peripheral member of my target group moved in around the corner from my ex-wife and
01:01:55 around the corner from my ex-wife and children whom it had been my habit to visit regularly. After I initially reported this, I was informed es squad would be tasked to follow the hood in question redacted so that we could assess the threat
01:02:12 that we could assess the threat accurately. This was never done and the follow was eventually performed by an ex-member of the branch. No help was ever sought or offered from the Met and I am currently financing their move away myself as the situation has worsened
01:02:25 myself as the situation has worsened with other threats having moved into the near area following the first and of course my knowledge of where they might be at any given time has ceased.
01:02:45 Now, you're not named in that extract, Sara, and it it it's appears to muddle up a few aspects from the lives of various associates. But
01:03:00 But I wanted to ask you whether if this did refer to you, whether you were ever aware of being followed or having someone follow you physically. No.
01:03:13 And again, if this does refer to you, we'll explore that with HN16, James Stro, when he gives evidence. What are your feelings about that about being followed, you name
01:03:26 about being followed, you name by a member of it would seem special branch if it was you? Yeah, I I would feel quite angry about that because of the risk that he took in the first place
01:03:38 the risk that he took in the first place of beginning a relationship with me when he knew that I lived two streets away from his ex and his children.
01:03:44 That was a massive huge risk that was taken
01:03:48 taken um that that needn't have happened. Yeah.
01:03:53 Yeah. And as a result of that, my life was obviously there there's a clear point of where I was physically spied on. Just looking briefly, Sara, at what James Straven has to say about
01:04:14 associating with you when you lived so close to his ex-wife and children. This is in his witness statement. It's UCPI 3LE 53.
01:04:17 3LE 53. It's page 100, paragraph 266.
01:04:33 And he says this, "I have been referred to page four of what is titled Magenta Triangle Extraction, which refers to the threat posed by the proximity of Sara to where my children, mother, and stepfather,
01:04:44 mother, and stepfather, sorry, the children's mother and stepfather now reside." I am asked why, bearing in mind this threat, did I enter into a sexual relationship with Sara? I can only say through stupidity. The
01:04:56 can only say through stupidity. The threat by the time my extraction came from the fact that after Sarah and I had finished our relationship, I was led to
01:05:09 finished our relationship, I was led to believe that she had a relationship with privacy and the threat came from him rather than Sara. So, it's accurate that by the 20th of November 2001, you'd left the country. Yeah,
01:05:25 Yeah, I was coming back occasionally and staying with a friend in Sutton. Okay.
01:05:29 Okay. He did come back. I lived there for three weeks with her before I actually left
01:05:36 left to to go abroad after I'd sold my flat. Sure. Um, can you comment on the accuracy of the claims that Straven makes here about an ongoing threat being presented by
01:05:47 presented by privacy? This is the person we referred to earlier, the person person with whom you had the relationship in summer.
01:05:54 summer. Can you comment on that? Did in that why that would have been a threat you mean?
01:05:57 you mean? Yes. No. On the fact that he says that he was given to understand when those documents were written in 2001. The threat he faced was posed by
01:06:11 2001. The threat he faced was posed by the fact that you were in a relationship with that person. I don't know why that would have been a threat apart from us obviously bumping into him if he was with his children.
01:06:30 Moving now on to James Straven's level of involvement in the Cud and Hunt saboturs. Mhm.
01:06:34 Mhm. Um he first reports on the group in April 97.
01:06:40 April 97. Um, so he'd been a member, it seems, for a while before you joined.
01:06:53 We established earlier that you met him on one of your first SABs in autumn 1998. Is that accurate? Yeah.
01:06:54 Yeah. Um,
01:07:02 Um, and by the time you joined Sar, was it your impression that he was well established in the group? Yeah. Yeah. Was he quite sorry. But everybody knew him and yeah, it was clear that he'd been there a while, you know.
01:07:15 been there a while, you know. Was he quite prominent in the group? Did he have a leading role? Um,
01:07:17 Um, not that I noticed to begin with, but I think as I got to know him in the group, then I would say yes from the point of view that he went on a lot of the
01:07:29 view that he went on a lot of the activity and he lent his car out to people in the group.
01:07:37 in respect of what he says about his level of involvement. If we could bring up his witness statement again, please, which is UCPI 3LE 53, it's page 72,
01:07:49 it's page 72, paragraph 194.
01:08:00 and he says this, I would say that the level in the Cud and Hunt saboturs that I reached was that I became a second tier organizer, one removed from the core and eventually I helped with planning, organization, logistics and tactical decision on the day of an
01:08:15 tactical decision on the day of an event. I eventually became embedded in Cud and Hunt saboturs through Sabbing activity and was included in their other protest activity. To the best of your recollection, Sara, does that accord with your
01:08:29 does that accord with your um impression? The bottom the bottom bit for sure that he was um embedded and involved in other protest activity about him becoming a second tier organizer. Um I I don't know for sure about that.
01:08:47 I I don't know for sure about that. Um he refers here again to a core again. Was there a core as far as you were aware?
01:08:50 aware? Well, there were people that went out regularly that were very committed. Yeah. Right. Um, were L1, L2, L3, and L4 part of that call?
01:08:57 call? They were.
01:09:08 They were. Um, you referred to his lending out his car. Do you have any recollection of his providing the group with night vision goggles to assist with sabbing? I remember something about that when we were at
01:09:16 were at um somebody's house and we were watching badgers and foxes at night coming out to feed. There was something to do with night vision goggles then but I don't remember where they came from or why we had them.
01:09:34 had them. At that time for me it was to watch the the nighttime activity of wild animals. Right. As opposed to sabbing Yeah.
01:09:37 Yeah. assistance. um
01:09:46 in the powerbase profile of HN16 James Straven um sir this is B1.3 page four um you're quoted Sara as saying that everybody liked him just in
01:10:00 saying that everybody liked him just in terms of his popularity everybody liked him got on with him he had a good sense of humor very dry and was intelligent He was a bit of a rebel. His family had expected an army career and he bailed
01:10:11 expected an army career and he bailed out of that. He said going into animal rights and another career was a sort of rebellion. Do you stand by that? I do.
01:10:23 I do. So he was a popular member of the group. Yeah.
01:10:25 Yeah. Um,
01:10:31 were you aware when you joined or were you made aware that in March 98 he'd suffered quite serious injuries on a countryside alliance march? Was that something you were aware of? Vaguely. I don't remember the details but I know something had happened.
01:10:46 but I know something had happened. Um, was it your impression that that experience had also made him more popular in the group in the sense that he'd taken a hit for the team
01:10:57 hit for the team lately. Yeah. Again, I can't remember details, but it does ring about. Yeah. I mean, it predates your meeting him.
01:11:00 him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, when you knew him, uh, was he a heavy drinker in the group? No.
01:11:08 No. And did he take drugs? Not that I'm aware of. You were under the impression he was a vegan. Is that accurate?
01:11:20 vegan. Is that accurate? That's accurate. Um
01:11:26 there's a reference in the power base profile to nicknames that members of Cud and Hunt saboturs had for him
01:11:38 and Hunt saboturs had for him and that these were posh Sab and James Blonde. Um
01:11:46 Um he denies knowing this. Um, can you comment on your impression of whether or not he knew that these were He knew. Yeah, he definitely knew. I called him James Blonde as well. And I
01:11:57 called him James Blonde as well. And I think I may have even written postcards to him under that name. Right. And Posh Sab as well. Posh Sab I remember less, but I can imagine that would have been the case. Yeah.
01:12:10 Yeah. Right. But James Blonde was said to his face by you and others. Yeah.
01:12:13 Yeah. How did you react to being called James Blonde?
01:12:20 From what I can remember, I think he thought it was quite amusing. Now we know why.
01:12:23 know why. But it didn't seem to bother him. No.
01:12:30 No. Um, was it your understanding? What was your understanding of the basis for that nickname?
01:12:35 nickname? Um, because of the hair, not for any other reason. Right. Not because he was suspected. No, no, no, no, no. Gosh, no. Um,
01:12:44 Um, how often were you in the field with James Straven? I mean, I understand you said only twice. Was he with you in the field on those occasions? Um,
01:12:56 Um, the first time, do you know? I can't remember. Oh, the first time I met him, actually, I met him in the pub afterwards. So, I don't think I don't think so. Right. Don't worry.
01:13:10 Right. Don't worry. I I can't remember. Honestly, can't remember. Um he's described again in the power base profile um as by an individ individuals called Joe and John. I think John is L3. I'm not entirely sure who Joe is, but he's
01:13:22 not entirely sure who Joe is, but he's described as being a strong fighter and as being at the forefront when attacked by police or hunt followers.
01:13:40 And they go on to say that he was a frontline SAB. He was very much part of the group. Whatever may have been happening or threatening to happen, he would not necessarily instigate things, but was not someone melting into the background either. He would be very much part of events on the day.
01:13:59 And Ellie, we don't need to bring it up, but Ellie in her witness statement, uh, this is just for the transcript at paragraph 7.8, eight. She says, "While undercover, he was known not to shy away from physical confrontations." Now, I understand you didn't witness
01:14:18 Now, I understand you didn't witness directly his behavior in the field, but does any of this chime with his reputation in the group? Yeah.
01:14:22 Yeah. So, he had a reputation as someone who wouldn't shy away from Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
01:14:31 did he ever tell you about participating in scraps? Not really. Not that I can remember. Um, it's mentioned in the Powerbase article that you thought he trained in
01:14:42 article that you thought he trained in Aikido. I'm not sure if that's how you It was some sort of martial art. It wasn't Aikido. It was something else, but I can't remember the name of it.
01:14:56 but I can't remember the name of it. And did did he ever give you to understand that he used those skills when he was out sabbing? Not that I recall. Um, moving now to look at the stabbing activity of Cud and hunt saboturs generally.
01:15:07 generally. Mhm.
01:15:15 You say in your witness statement, again, we don't need to bring it up, but just for the transcript, it's paragraph 2.9. You say it was a known fact that there would sometimes be public disorder
01:15:26 there would sometimes be public disorder during a hunt as our group, the hunt and the police were always there and we didn't see eye to eye. What do you mean there Sara by public disorder?
01:15:38 disorder? Um there could be shouting. Um there maybe could have been pushing and
01:15:50 maybe could have been pushing and shoving if the people were trying to get into the field or things like that. Um, the hunt was sometimes would would be out with their whips and things like that. So, there were scuffles, right?
01:15:55 right? There were scuffles between the police, the hunt, and the hunt saboturs. For sure.
01:15:56 sure. Sure. Um,
01:15:59 Sure. Um, you say in that same paragraph, you say, "I think that some of the group approved and advocated for public disorder, but not all."
01:16:12 not all." Can I just unpack that with you a little bit? What do you mean exactly by they advocated for public disorder? Um, what do I mean by that? That it was a necessary part of being on a on a
01:16:24 a necessary part of being on a on a sabotage of a hunt, public disorder. Um,
01:16:36 sabotage of a hunt, public disorder. Um, and you mean the types of actions that you mentioned just now? So, scaffolding when trying to gain access at people. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of verbal um interaction against the hunt. Um when you say
01:16:48 Um when you say and also going on to land that wasn't legally allowed, right?
01:16:53 right? So trespass or aggravated trespass. Yeah.
01:16:55 Yeah. Um
01:16:56 Um and what gave you the impression that some of the group approved and advocated for public disorder? Did they say that openly?
01:17:05 openly? Um
01:17:10 Um or is it what you observed? No, just some of the group were more more upfront than others, right?
01:17:12 right? Would have been more in the front line than others. More gungho than others?
01:17:25 Just different personalities. Yeah. Um, and again, can I ask were L1, L2, L3, and L4 members who were more gung-ho than others? Yes.
01:17:34 Yes. Um you say Sara in your witness statement that you yourself didn't witness any violent acts from from hunt saboturs on a hunt.
01:17:49 saboturs on a hunt. Um as far as you're aware, did
01:17:51 did the members of Cudon Hunt saboturs ever or routinely take weapons with them when they went on SABS? Not that I'm aware of. Um, you say you didn't witness any
01:18:02 Um, you say you didn't witness any violent acts from Sabs. Did you ever hear about any violent acts from Sabs on hunts?
01:18:12 hunts? Not that I can remember. Not apart from the usual scuffling. So, I don't remember anything standing out. No. You've mentioned now a few times that sometimes the hunt would be
01:18:25 sometimes the hunt would be provoked verbally or that there'd be some verbal interactions. Both ways around, not just between Sure.
01:18:30 Sure. Both ways around. Uh, was this something you again you witnessed or you were just occasionally? I was in the van, so yes, occasionally. I would see it at the beginning when they'd started or Yeah.
01:18:43 beginning when they'd started or Yeah. And when you say provoke verbally, do you mean it was verbal abuse? Yep. And it was going both ways. It was going both ways for sure. Right.
01:19:01 Right. Um, looking now at the behavior of the hunt and hunt supporters and TerryM, did you ever experience violence from hunters or hunt supporters or term men?
01:19:17 or term men? Me personally, no, I didn't. Did you ever witness violence from these people towards members of Cud and Hunts habitats?
01:19:23 habitats? Not directly, no, but I heard about it. Right. And what just can you give us a flavor of the kind of things you
01:19:35 flavor of the kind of things you Yeah, I can remember things like um Terry men pushing people out of the way, blocking the path, um attacking them, and also the same from from the hunt with whips and things like that. So using using them physically against hunt saboturs,
01:19:48 saboturs, right? So whipping using their whips on Yeah. Yeah. Hunts. Um
01:19:50 Um now there's a reference in HN16, James Straven's witness statement. Again, just for the transcript, it's paragraph 254. We don't need to bring it up, but he
01:20:07 We don't need to bring it up, but he says that on the 21st of November 1998, he was attacked and struck with a golf club on a hunt SAB. And I just want to bring this up. This is a roughly contemporaneous document about this incident. So this is at MPS057.
01:20:22 That's a S2, sir.
01:20:31 and it's dated the 21st of November 1998.
01:20:41 And I believe it's written by Hen 58. Um, and it says this, on Saturday the 21st of November 1998 at 1400 hours, DS Thompson was on duty with his target group in the area of Kent. His group
01:20:58 group in the area of Kent. His group were involved in hunt sabotur activity. This brought them in conflict with a group of boys who were intent on preventing the sabotur's activity. Some disorder occurred during which DS
01:21:11 disorder occurred during which DS Thompson received blows to the head and body from a golf club. He was able to extricate himself from the vicinity.
01:21:26 Um Wendy in her witness statement also refers to this incident. Um it's page 27 of that witness statement which is paragraph 12.5.
01:21:32 Um sorry the witness the reference is 38208
01:21:36 to UCPI
01:21:43 and
01:21:54 I'll read out the extract. I've got it in front of me. She says, "I was present at this incident where two vehicles of hunt supporters attacked us with weapons, including golf clubs and bats. I was also hit to the ground with a golf club. We all grabbed branches, fought
01:22:07 club. We all grabbed branches, fought for ourselves against our attackers, and then ran."
01:22:20 Now, from your evidence so far, sorry, I understand you weren't present when this happened, but did you hear about this? No, I don't remember anything about that.
01:22:23 that. Right, we'll move on. Um,
01:22:28 Um, we will look at this in far greater detail
01:22:30 detail in due course, but
01:22:40 it's clear that on the 1st of September 2000,
01:22:42 2000, L4
01:22:44 L4 suffered very serious physical injury when he was run over by a member of a hunt.
01:22:51 hunt. Yeah.
01:22:53 Yeah. Um,
01:22:58 Um, so we've got two examples there. Just to the best of your recollection, don't worry if not, do you remember any other standout
01:23:09 standout incidents of violence towards members of Cud and Hunt saboturs from your period of involvement? No. No, I don't remember anything. Um, looking quickly at the conduct of the police on SABS, um, did you
01:23:21 the police on SABS, um, did you yourself, Sara, have any encounters or confrontations with the police when you were stabbing? Not that I can recall.
01:23:36 Not that I can recall. Did you witness any between other members of Cordon Hunt Sabotars and the police?
01:23:39 police? No, because I was usually in the van, so I didn't I didn't really see any of that. Um, my next question was going to be, were you aware of any disparity in the way the police treated
01:23:52 the way the police treated members of the hunt and members of sabbing groups only from vaguely things that maybe were reported back, right? And those reports, the gist of those reports was that there was a disparity or that there wasn't.
01:24:07 disparity or that there wasn't. Uh, sometimes I think there was. Yeah. In terms of sorry just to labor the point but in terms of who was given towards the saboturs they received worse treatment
01:24:18 they received worse treatment I would say. Yeah from my from my recollection. Yeah. Um
01:24:28 I just want to take you quickly to a document. It was not sent you in your original bundle Sara but we'll bring it up. It's MPS01541.
01:24:39 Um, it's a S3, sir.
01:24:47 And it's dated the 16th of November 1998.
01:24:52 And just to make sure, sorry. So, you think I mean, you've said that you got involved around autumn 98. Do you think you were involved by November 98? Yeah.
01:25:00 Yeah. Yeah.
01:25:01 Yeah. Um, this report reads, "Thus, Cud and Hunt saboturs are considering an attack on a fascist who routinely drinks in the public house opposite privacy in Ksden.
01:25:20 public house opposite privacy in Ksden. Representations had already been made to Mario, a former SAB, now the contact with London AFA, that's anti-fascist action, to encourage them to hit him. But as nothing has so far transpired,
01:25:37 But as nothing has so far transpired, Cudon are now considering taking matters into their own hands despite the proximity to the target. Initially, the fascist will be followed by different vehicles until his home address is established, and he will then be attacked at that venue. It has
01:25:54 be attacked at that venue. It has already been established that he lives on an estate further down the privacy road on the left. Um my understanding Sara is that the privacy restriction here is over the
01:26:06 privacy restriction here is over the name of the person with whom you had a relationship in summer 2000. Um obviously you're not mentioned in this document but you were involved on your evidence in Cud and Hunt saboturs
01:26:19 your evidence in Cud and Hunt saboturs at this time. Were you aware of anything like this? No.
01:26:26 No. Does this sound like the kind of thing that members of Cudon Hunt saboturs might?
01:26:29 might? Not that I'm aware of. Not attacking people like that. No.
01:26:41 Um, if we look briefly again at HN16 Straven's witness statement, uh, UCPI 3LE 53,
01:26:47 it's page 74.
01:26:53 Paragraph 200,
01:27:07 he says this. I did consider the Cuden Hunt saboturs or individuals associated with Cud and Hunt saboturs were regularly involved in the planning and execution of criminal activity in support of their very broad anarctic
01:27:20 support of their very broad anarctic agenda. They were regularly involved in public disorder because they were regularly able to commit a large number of individuals to events where violent disorder was highly likely.
01:27:33 disorder was highly likely. So from your dealings with the group, Sara,
01:27:37 Sara, can you comment on the accuracy of whether Cud and Hunt sabotage were regularly involved in the planning and execution of criminal activity?
01:27:48 execution of criminal activity? I I can't comment. I know they some of the group went on different marches and protests and things like that, not just for animal rights, but for um human rights and things like that, but I don't know the details.
01:28:09 know the details. Um would you agree that Cuden Hunt saboturs had a broad anarchic agenda? Not that I'm aware of. Um, and drawing from your own experiences with the group, would you agree that Cuden Hunt saboturs as a group was able to commit a large
01:28:28 as a group was able to commit a large number of individuals to events where violent disorder was highly likely? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Um,
01:28:34 Um, apart from sabbing Sara, uh, you set out in your witness statement some other animal related, uh, sorry, animal rights related activity that you undertook and you refer to a demonstration at
01:28:45 you refer to a demonstration at Hillgrove Cat testing farm. Um, to the best of your recollection, did you ever attend any demonstrations at Shamrock Monkey Farm? No. Right.
01:29:04 looking at home visits now. Um, HN16 in his witness statement, again, we don't need to bring it up, but for the transcript, it's at paragraph 179.2,
01:29:17 179.2, he says that he was present at some home visits and that they made him uncomfortable.
01:29:28 uncomfortable. Um, if we could bring up the powerbased document, please, which is 352. Yeah, thank you. It's page 12. So, it's at B13,
01:29:30 B13, B13.
01:29:36 Um, and it says this, "At Shamrock and Hillgrove demos, activists sometimes carried out follow-up actions immediately afterwards. For instance, a handful of people would go off to do
01:29:50 handful of people would go off to do different things, such as home visits, to shout at staff of the farms." Sara does remember that James went off with the others at least on one occasion.
01:29:59 occasion. Other members of the Cuddon group, however, cannot imagine Straven would have been trusted enough to be invited along.
01:30:07 along. And you refer to this also in your witness statement, Sara. Um, if we could bring that up, that's uh UCPI 38210. It's page 38
01:30:20 It's page 38 and paragraph 7.1.
01:30:31 And you say this, I think he might have gone to the houses of animal lab staff. He told me once when he'd been on a demonstration, I think that he was going to do that with some others of the
01:30:42 to do that with some others of the group. I can't remember who was there. I think it was to hassle the staff about their jobs, to frighten them. James wasn't arrested or didn't attend court in my presence.
01:31:03 Do you mean just for the avoidance of doubt, Sara, that he wasn't arrested for that home visit specifically or do you just mean generally when you generally? Generally, yeah. Um, did he ever say anything to you about being, this was before you met him, but about being arrested in August 98?
01:31:16 98? on the way to a Huntington Life Sciences demo.
01:31:18 demo. I can't remember. Don't worry. I can't remember it. Moving to just focusing on the home visit aspect. Um both astra a sorry extracts suggest that on this occasion
01:31:36 extracts suggest that on this occasion that you refer to when James Draven went on a home visit that if I understand it correctly you were both at a demonstration and then he expressed his intention to go afterwards to pay a home visit. Yeah.
01:31:44 Yeah. Is that right? Um, you say that you think the purpose of the visit was to hassle the staff about their jobs and to frighten them. What
01:31:58 their jobs and to frighten them. What gave you the impression that this was the purpose of the visit? Because it was it was people that were carrying out vivisection
01:32:11 carrying out vivisection on animals and that was my understanding of of trying to deter them from what they were doing. Did James Straven provide any details about what he intended to do on the home visit?
01:32:19 visit? No.
01:32:24 No. Did you hear anything after that home visit about what took place? No.
01:32:34 Looking now to the uh at the attack on L4 Zara.
01:32:40 Um,
01:32:48 this is referred to in your witness statement. It's UCPI 38210.
01:32:55 It's page four. It's paragraph 2.7.
01:33:10 And you say this. Have you got it? Yeah. The final thing I attended was a demonstration at a dog kennels which I think was after one of the group was attacked by hunt supporters at a hunt sab in around autumn 2000. I remember walking up the drive to the kennels.
01:33:24 walking up the drive to the kennels. There was a lot of shouting and I didn't like the feeling of being part of it. I decided I didn't want to stay as it seemed that it could get confrontational and backed away and went back to my car as far as I can remember.
01:33:36 as far as I can remember. That's all I can remember. Um
01:33:41 Um just moving back from that, we'll look in a little more detail at that demonstration, but when you mention there about the demonstration being in response to
01:33:55 the demonstration being in response to one of the group being attacked by hunt supporters at a ha at a SAB around autumn 2000,
01:34:05 is it your understanding, your recollection that that's referring to the attack on L4? for on the 1st of September 20. Yeah, as far as I can remember, that's what it would have been. Yeah. Um,
01:34:13 Um, we'll look briefly. James Straven reported a Sorry, James Straven James Thompson referred to reported on this
01:34:24 Thompson referred to reported on this event and we'll bring this up. This is MPS0
01:34:26 MPS0 3867.
01:34:29 It's a S6. Uh,
01:34:44 Um, and he says this. He says, "So, yes, dated the 1st of the of September 2000." Sir, it's in your supplemental bundle. He says, "L4 was seriously injured this morning when a Land Rover belonging to
01:34:57 morning when a Land Rover belonging to the Surrey and Burst Hunt ran him over during a confrontation between hunt supporters and hunt saboturs. Others present at the event included L2 privacy and privacy from Liverpool. Not surprisingly, there is great anger
01:35:21 Not surprisingly, there is great anger amongst the SABs at this incident as it was felt to be a deliberate act. There has been immediate talk of reprisals, but no definite plan has yet been formulated.
01:35:27 So again, Sara, just for the avoidance of doubt, is this the attack as you understand it to be on L4? Yeah.
01:35:37 Yeah. That prompted then that subsequent demo at the kennels. Yeah, I think that's what it was about, but it was definitely L4 that was attacked. Um,
01:35:49 attacked. Um, and I from what I can remember, that was what it was about, right? Um, just looking at the I've been asked to refer to him, by the way, as James Thompson. Sorry, I don't want to confuse you because I know I've been referring to him as James Straven up to
01:36:00 referring to him as James Straven up to this point, but from moving forward, I'm going to refer to him as James Thompson, just using his real name. Um,
01:36:13 just using his real name. Um, was it accurate, Sara, that there was great anger amongst the Sabs at the incident, i.e. the whole?
01:36:17 whole? Yeah.
01:36:21 Yeah. Um, and was it felt to be a deliberate act?
01:36:22 act? Yes, it was. Absolutely. I wasn't there, but that's the feedback for sure. Yeah. Um, were you there? Were you present when this happened? No, I was not present. No.
01:36:36 No, I was not present. No. When he says there has been immediate talk of reprisals. Does that chime with your recollection? I don't remember that. I just remember there being an outrage about the fact that it had happened.
01:36:57 Looking again now at the protest you refer to in your witness statements s about the at the kennels. Mhm.
01:37:00 Mhm. Um again the powerbased document refers to this. Uh this is on page 11 the sir it's at B13 of your bundle. It says this. James was considered as a
01:37:13 It says this. James was considered as a good friend of the member of the Cuddon group who almost died after he was deliberately driven over by a hunt supporter in a four-wheel drive vehicle. He was very present at his bedside during his recovery.
01:37:24 during his recovery. The attack happened on the 1st of September 2000 when a small delegation of the Cudden Hunt saboturs to turned up at dawn at sorry at a dawn meetat of the old Surrey Burto and West Kent Hunt
01:37:39 old Surrey Burto and West Kent Hunt attempting to prevent the killing of fox cubs.
01:37:41 cubs. The event i.e. the attack on L4 had a massive impact on hunt sabotars
01:37:52 had a massive impact on hunt sabotars and their supporters. A call went out for a demo the next day. What started as a peaceful demo escalated at the kennels where few
01:38:03 escalated at the kennels where few police were seen in attendance. When we arrived, two men came out, one with a stick, one with a pickaxe handle. After that, it all kicked off. They were threatening people. There was quite some damage at the
01:38:17 There was quite some damage at the kennels and 36 people were subsequently arrested weeks later at their homes by detectives from Surrey and Sussex police forces who were investigating both the hunting incident and the subsequent demonstration.
01:38:33 demonstration. To the best of your recollection, sorry, does that sound like the protest at the kennels that you refer to in your witness statement? I think so. Yeah, I think so. Uh but if I understand your evidence correctly, you left before witnessing that. I didn't witness that directly. Correct.
01:38:46 directly. Correct. But were you aware subsequently that things had Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Deteriorated to that extent. Yeah.
01:38:58 Sara, looking now at your trip to France in January 2000.
01:39:10 in January 2000. Um, you refer to this in your witness statement. It's UCP 38210. It's page 16, paragraph 3.45.
01:39:22 I think 2001. Hang on. Sorry. 2000 uh 2001. I apologize. That's my mistake. Yeah. 2001. Okay. Um, in early 2001, a year into our platonic relationship, James was going to Bordeaux in France for a few days
01:39:40 to Bordeaux in France for a few days holiday with another member of the group and asked me to go and join them too. I went for a few days. He shared a room with our friend and I had my own room.
01:40:00 Cross-referencing this with some documents from the SDS Sara, it suggests that eight that James Thompson and L3 went to Marseilles around the 9th of January 2001 and were in Bordeaux around the 10th 11th of January. Does that sound accurate to you? About right? Yeah.
01:40:17 We look at the power base profile again, please. UCPI 35LE2.
01:40:25 So it's a B13. It's page 15 of that document.
01:40:42 And it says this. In early 2001, Straven offered John, that's L3 as I understand it, a trip to France on the pretext of having to see a bank manager in Marseilles to discuss a business venture to import golfs.
01:40:54 to import golfs. Then he says about 10 days after the initial conversation the trip was arranged and we drove from Calala to Marseilles across to Bordeaux where Sara joined us and back up to Calala via Die.
01:41:11 joined us and back up to Calala via Die. We were away for at least four days. The whole occasion had the appearance of spontaneity.
01:41:17 I just want to explore that with you a little Sara. Um L3 who I understand to be John says here that the trip was impromptu. So proposed by James Thompson approximately 10 days before you left.
01:41:34 approximately 10 days before you left. Was that the same for you? Was it fairly last minute? Yeah, I think so. I think so. Can you assist at all with how far in advance of your actually going he proposed it?
01:41:48 proposed it? No, I can't be accurate on that. but not long. Is that correct? Yeah, as far as I remember, it wasn't planned weeks and weeks in advance. Um,
01:41:56 Um, did he say anything to you about there being for him a business aspect to the trip about, you know, I vaguely remember something about golf carts, but I don't recall
01:42:09 about golf carts, but I don't recall whether or not it was linked to that trip.
01:42:15 trip. Right. But you recall James Thompson saying something to you about a business venture involving golf carts. Yeah, there was definitely Yeah, it's jiggled something. Yeah, there was definitely something about that, but I couldn't go into detail. What did he say to you
01:42:32 What did he say to you when he mentioned the trip? What did he say to you about the reason for the trip?
01:42:36 trip? As far as I can remember, it was just a jolly
01:42:37 jolly just a nice As far as I remember. Yeah. I can't remember whether he'd said anything about the golf cart thing at that time,
01:42:49 at that time, but it was your understanding it was just a nice holiday. Yeah.
01:42:51 Yeah. Um,
01:42:54 Um, what did he say to you about who else would be on that trip? Um, just myself and John.
01:43:02 John. Yeah. L3.
01:43:03 Yeah. L3. Yeah.
01:43:05 Yeah. Um, did he set out for you or discuss with you the rough form that the trip would take? Like where you would go? No, he didn't. No.
01:43:15 No. Um,
01:43:17 Um, what was your understanding of his reason for inviting you on the trip?
01:43:28 reason for inviting you on the trip? We were good friends and I was due to leave the country a couple of months after. So probably just a good good excuse to spend some time together with my understanding. Right. That's what he gave you to understand. Yeah.
01:43:48 How did it come to be that you met up with them in Bordeaux rather than going off with them? I can't remember. I was just thinking that I flew to it may may have been because of work. I think I'd stopped working by then before I left. I can't remember. I can't remember, but I know
01:44:00 remember. I can't remember, but I know that I met them. They went before me and I I flew to Bordeaux to meet them there.
01:44:13 I I flew to Bordeaux to meet them there. And to the best of your recollection, Sara, did you fly in and out of Bordeaux or did you travel back with them to the UK in the car? No, because the car his car had been stolen allegedly when I got by the time I got
01:44:26 allegedly when I got by the time I got to Bordeaux, they had a higher car. that I think I flew back. But uh we understand from other documents that they did drive back in the higher car. Okay.
01:44:35 Okay. But it's your evidence that you didn't you don't recall making that trip. I really honestly don't remember. I don't think I did drive with then.
01:44:47 don't think I did drive with then. Um S I think now might be a good time for a break. Okay.
01:44:52 Okay. Um so we will resume in 15 minutes. 15 minutes. Yeah. Okay. Content.
02:00:05 to let him quickly.
02:00:21 Sara, returning to the topic of the trip to France in January 2001. Um, you mentioned the stolen that James Thompson had his
02:00:33 the stolen that James Thompson had his car stolen. I'll I'll just refer you to the relevant bit in your witness statement. It's UCPI 38210.
02:00:38 It's page 38, paragraph 6.1.
02:00:49 Um
02:00:55 okay. Yeah. And you say I understand that the trip I described at paragraph 3.45 is what the file notes referring to as operation lime. That bit we don't need to worry about that. However, I did go
02:01:07 to worry about that. However, I did go to France to meet James and L3 I think in Janu February 2001. Well, we've established that it was the around the 10th of January 2001. Yeah. I remember James' car was stolen on this trip. He arrived at Bordeaux
02:01:19 on this trip. He arrived at Bordeaux airport to collect me in a higher car, saying his Land Rover had been stolen in Marseilles.
02:01:32 Can you recall, Sara, what he said to you about his car being stolen? He said it the car was too high to park it in a underground car park and he had left it on the street around the corner
02:01:45 left it on the street around the corner from the hotel where they were staying. Right.
02:01:48 Right. And it when they went to get it, it wasn't there. Um, so was it your I understand this was a while ago. Don't worry if you can't remember. But when he came to pick you up, was it your understanding that the
02:02:03 up, was it your understanding that the car had only just been stolen like that morning or I can't remember. I can't remember. I just remember it was a very small airport. Um they arrived. I couldn't see, you know, the land was high. I couldn't see it. Yeah.
02:02:18 Yeah. And asking where it was and them saying it was a very good question because he didn't know. And I can't remember if it was that I mean I can't remember from Marles to Bordeaux what that time period was.
02:02:35 Did he What was his demeanor when he told you about the car being stolen? Um pretty calm. So I infer from that that he didn't seem unduly bothered.
02:02:52 unduly bothered. I can actually remember saying where's the Land Rover? and him saying, "That's a very good question." But there was a bit of humor in that response, right? And did he say anything about what he'd done to try and
02:03:03 to try and locate the car, report the car, anything like that? I can't remember the details of that.
02:03:14 I can't remember the details of that. Did he say anything to you at all about him saying there was something in the car in the Land Rover when it was stolen?
02:03:16 stolen? No, just all the maps and things that he carried, all the usual stuff that was in it. Everything had gone. So, did he specifically refer to maps?
02:03:27 So, did he specifically refer to maps? They were something that I'd also bought for him.
02:03:31 for him. Oh, I understand. So, you' bought them for him in advance? Maps and things like that. Yeah. In advance of the trip. You'd done that for him?
02:03:36 for him? Oh, over over time. Yeah. Yeah. Um you I can remember him saying something like the car and everything in it right
02:03:44 right has gone. So okay um just very briefly you bought him maps is it do you mean maps for France? No, no, just ordinance survey maps, right?
02:03:54 right? Just generally for different areas, right? For to assist him when he was working around England or for recreational Yeah, I think so. For walking and stuff like that, right?
02:04:06 right? Um
02:04:10 Um to the best of your recollection, did he say anything about how he about the
02:04:21 say anything about how he about the replacement car when he hired it? just that um luckily he had the means with which to hire a car and trip.
02:04:27 and trip. Sorry. So you understood that to mean he had the money. He had the money to to be able to hire a car instead. Yeah. Um
02:04:35 Um do you remember the kind of car it was? Do you remember it being a Volvo? Don't worry.
02:04:40 worry. Um,
02:04:42 Um, what did he say to you, if anything, about what he and L3 had been up to on the trip prior to meeting you?
02:05:01 I can't remember. So, don't worry if you can't remember. Did he say anything about what they did when they were in Marseilles? No. Well, he probably did, but I can't remember.
02:05:07 remember. Right. Nothing stood out. No, nothing stood out from what you can recall. Um,
02:05:16 Um, you've described him picking you up at Bordeaux airport. Can you recall? Did you meet up with L3 soon after that?
02:05:25 Meet up with him? What do you mean? Well, did you join up? Cuz L3 Was L3 in the car?
02:05:26 the car? Oh, they were all together. Oh, they were all together. So, L3 was in the car as well. Yeah.
02:05:31 Yeah. Sorry, I should have established that earlier.
02:05:37 earlier. So, did L3, to the best of your recollection, say anything about what they've been up to? No. Did he say anything about the car theft? Not that I can remember. Um,
02:05:47 Um, can you remember anything about L3's demeanor when he came to meet you in that? Did he seem normal, relaxed? Did he seem on edge?
02:06:01 Nothing stands out.
02:06:12 So L3 and James Thompson picked you up and we understand from the documents that you then it seems you spent about four days together. Does that sound sound about accurate?
02:06:24 sound about accurate? No, I don't think it was as long as that. I think it was a couple of nights, right?
02:06:25 right? I don't remember it being four days. Fine. No, I I may have got that wrong actually. We've got I might be able to refer to something in a bit. Um we can pin it down a little more. That might
02:06:36 pin it down a little more. That might have been their whole trip, but yeah. Sure. Yeah. Um,
02:06:45 and I understand in terms of accommodation, were you staying in a hotel in Bordeaux? Yes.
02:06:54 Yes. And is it correct that you had your own room and L3 and James Thompson were sharing a room? Yeah. Were you aware at any point of any what seemed to be secretive
02:07:06 what seemed to be secretive conversations between the two of them of them nipping off for private conversations? Not that I can recall
02:07:18 when you were in Bordeaux with these two men. Um, can you recall what you did, what you got up to? We I can remember we had we had a
02:07:29 to? We I can remember we had we had a walk around town. Um went for coffee and lunch and things like that and we went to the beach at one point for a walk. Um and that's all I can remember really. I think we went to a
02:07:41 think we went to a whether it was an Indian or vegetarian restaurant or something we found. Sure.
02:07:43 Sure. While we were there and that's all I can really remember. Um, just in case it jogs something, but this is what HN16, sorry, James Thompson said to his managers about what you did
02:07:58 managers about what you did in this part of the trip, although it's notable that you're you're not mentioned, but this is what he said he got up to with L3. The document is MPS05257
02:08:11 and that's page five.
02:08:22 and his managers report him saying this that having spent another day in Marseilles, they drove to Bordeaux and did the general tourist bit. It appears that L3 really is a wine buff.
02:08:36 appears that L3 really is a wine buff. They contacted the Jean Darmm again and then decided to travel slowly back to Calala over the weekend to return on a ferry to do on Monday the 15th of January after a final check with the Jearm.
02:08:55 To the best of your recollection, is that is it accurate that L3 is a wine buff?
02:08:58 buff? I can remember we went somewhere now. Now, I do remember we went to I don't know it was a vineyard or somewhere that
02:09:09 know it was a vineyard or somewhere that sold decent wine. Um, but whether L3 was a wine buff, I can't remember. Do you recall
02:09:16 James Thompson or L3 or both contacting the Jean Darm at all about the car?
02:09:25 Um, just for the avoidance of doubt, just to be absolutely clear on your evidence,
02:09:37 be absolutely clear on your evidence, you have no recollection on that trip of anything being said about a firearm having been obtained in Monay? No, not at all. Nothing about the firearm being in the vehicle.
02:09:42 vehicle. Nothing. No. Um,
02:09:59 L3, the account that James Thompson gave to his managers was that L3 that the firearm had cost £700. Um,
02:10:05 Um, just to get your view on that, it was L3 the type of person to have access to £700?
02:10:10 £700? I don't know. I didn't know him well enough to know. Right. And does it follow from that that you wouldn't know whether he had any criminal contacts in France? Yeah, I wouldn't know.
02:10:25 Yeah, I wouldn't know. And again, just for the avoidance of doubt, at any point did James Thompson say anything to you, whether on that trip or subsequently or even before the trip about a plan to buy a buy a firearm in France? No.
02:10:52 Um, and nothing about a plan or an intention to harm L5. This is the person in the Land Rover who ran over. Well, no, nothing. Never heard anything about that. Nothing.
02:10:57 Nothing. Um,
02:11:09 now the record shows Sara that the prosecution against L5 collapsed in February 2001. Um,
02:11:16 Um, and again this is just for the avoidance of doubt.
02:11:24 James Thompson in a report I I'll give the reference just for the transcript. don't need to bring it up, but it's MPS 07282
02:11:34 on pages seven and 8. And he he mentions that there was a reinstigation. Sorry, it's not a report, it's his um debrief when he left the SDS. And he refers to there being after the the collapse of the prosecution, there being a
02:11:51 the prosecution, there being a reinstigation of plotting L5's demise amongst members of Cud and Hunt saboturs. Were you ever made privy or aware of anything like that? No.
02:12:07 Very briefly, um, not long after this trip to France, there is some suggestion that James Thompson made a trip to Los Angeles on the 4th of February. Do you remember anything about that?
02:12:22 I don't recall anything. The only thing I can think if I had have known and I would be surprised if I hadn't have known was that it would be to do with his relocation there which he had told me he was going to do. So by that point he had told you
02:12:33 So by that point he had told you he definitely told me why we were still platonic right relationship that he would be um relocating to America to be near his children.
02:12:42 children. Okay. We we will return to that briefly actually.
02:12:43 actually. Good. Okay. Um, Sara, I'm going to move now to your relationship with HN16 James Thompson and your sexual relationship with him. Um, we've touched upon this previously,
02:13:00 Um, we've touched upon this previously, but again, just to be clear, uh, you met James Thompson in autumn 1998. We think round about October. Do you think that's right?
02:13:11 think that's right? I'm a bit vague about it. That's roughly when I met him, but by November. I know we were together in a sexual relationship for about a year,
02:13:16 year, right? Sure. So, um, it could have even been a little bit later than that. You mean a little bit later than autumn? Don't
02:13:29 Don't I burnt all my journals. I could tell you, but I don't know the exact dates. I understand. Um, you were in your early 30s when you met him. Is that accurate? Yeah.
02:13:42 Yeah. And you met him in the pub after a sab. Uhhuh.
02:13:43 Uhhuh. Um, and you say in your witness statement you got chatting straight away to him
02:13:50 to him and that you liked him. Mhm.
02:13:51 Mhm. Um, can I ask why you liked him? Um, I think we made each other laugh. I think we just had a lot of that we just connected.
02:14:02 just connected. Yeah.
02:14:03 Yeah. Yeah.
02:14:06 Yeah. And you've had him easy to talk to. Is that accurate? Um,
02:14:09 Um, I can't I can't remember. Exactly. But I know there was there was I definitely liked him and it there was something there for me.
02:14:21 something there for me. Yeah. Sure. A spark, shall we say? Yeah.
02:14:22 Yeah. Um,
02:14:34 Um, when you met him for the first time, did he to what extent did he make it clear that he liked you, that he felt some sort of spark? No, there he didn't. He didn't. We just were able to communicate and chat.
02:14:45 chat. I understand. So, there were no sort of overt sexual overtones at that first meeting.
02:14:51 meeting. Um, you say in your witness statement that you found out from a friend that he was interested in you. So, was that just after you chatted in the pub?
02:15:00 the pub? Um, it must have been shortly afterwards, right? Um, but I think Did I write that? I think it was the I think I said to my friend that I liked him. Oh, I understand. Yes. Apologies. I think that's my mistake. Um, and by
02:15:11 think that's my mistake. Um, and by doing that, were you hoping that that would be passed on to James Thompson? I think, um, gosh, I can't remember exactly, but I think my friend said he
02:15:24 exactly, but I think my friend said he was going to phone him and tell him. I can't remember. Don't worry. I know, I understand. It's a long time ago. Um, just if we could look at something Wendy says in her witness statement. The reference is UCPI 38208.
02:15:38 It's page five,
02:15:42 uh, paragraph 4.2.
02:15:50 And just bearing in mind that we understand from Wendy that she had known James for a bit longer. So, she had known him since April 1997, roundabout. Uh, and she says this. She says Sara met James Thompson when she was sabbing. Sara told me that James had expressed an
02:16:05 Sara told me that James had expressed an interest in her. I remember telling Sara that she should definitely give James a chance as he was a great guy. They began dating after this. In this way, I encourage Sara to engage in a relationship with James.
02:16:18 relationship with James. Does that chime in with your recollection, Sara?
02:16:32 recollection, Sara? Yeah, I know. I know Wendy knew him and I'd talked to her about the fact that um our other friend was in touch with him about possibly us getting together. Yeah.
02:16:33 Yeah. Um
02:16:35 Um you say in your witness statement that he called you um and arranged a dinner date to a veggie restaurant restaurant in Cuden.
02:16:43 in Cuden. Yeah.
02:16:43 Yeah. Yeah. Um
02:16:51 and I understand we're still talking autumn 98. I know you can't be absolutely specific. Around about that time. Could have been a bit later, but it was it was at the back end of 1998. Yeah. Um so the dinner date was something he instigated.
02:17:02 instigated. Yes. He called me. Yeah.
02:17:13 Yes. He called me. Yeah. Um, again, at your we don't need to bring it up, but just for the transcript at 3.2 of your witness statement, you say that the date went well. Mhm.
02:17:17 Mhm. You say also that it was it was clear it was the start of something. What do you mean by that? How is it made clear to you it was the start of something?
02:17:30 something? Because of we got on really well. There was a there was a there was a good connection there from the very beginning. Um and then I think he came back to my coffee and when he left he called me um almost immediately and to arrange
02:17:45 um almost immediately and to arrange doing something the following day. I think it's the following day or the day after.
02:17:48 after. Right. Okay. So he seemed keen. Yeah. To what extent did he make it clear to you when you were on the date
02:18:02 clear to you when you were on the date and when he came back to your house that he was interested in you sexually? Um
02:18:07 I can't remember. Nothing happened on that
02:18:08 that right
02:18:10 right uh date. We didn't have sex on that date. Um
02:18:15 date. Um I can't even remember if we kissed. I don't think so.
02:18:24 don't think so. Uh yes. You talk about your first kiss actually, Sara. We we'll we'll look at that. Um, now you you've talked about his calling you off to the date and arranging to see you. Um, you refer in your witness statement um to well, I
02:18:38 your witness statement um to well, I I'll take you to it. So, it's it really echoes what you've just said, but it's the witness statement 38210,
02:18:45 page five. That's paragraph 3.3. Um, you say he came back to my house for
02:18:56 Um, you say he came back to my house for coffee and after he left he called me to say he was going to France for a day trip with two other people from the animal rights group the next day. He asked if I wanted to join them. I said I would and the relationship developed from there.
02:19:08 from there. So
02:19:10 So that was what he wanted you to do with him the next day. That's what he invited you to do to Yeah. The next day or the day after I think it will Yeah.
02:19:21 Yeah. um a day trip to France. Was that to Calala as far as you recall or I think it was to Calala and it was we went to buy cheese and wine and stuff like that. So I bought cheese. I wasn't vegan at the time and wine and things like that.
02:19:33 like that. Fine. So it's like a sort of It was a day trip. Yeah. Sure. Like a booze cruise type of thing. Yeah. And lunch and what have you. Yeah. Right. Um and did James Thompson drive there and back then?
02:19:49 there and back then? I think he did. Yep. Can you recall how many of you were on that trip? Sure.
02:19:56 Sure. Um, looking at the cipher list, obviously don't mention any names, but can you help us with who else was on that trip? Um,
02:20:02 Um, don't if they're not there, don't worry. Yeah, L1.
02:20:03 Yeah, L1. Yeah.
02:20:05 Yeah. And
02:20:10 And the on the on the list. Yeah.
02:20:14 Yeah. It would have been page 13, the first person mentioned. Okay, thank you. Uh, sorry. Page 13, the second the middle the middle line
02:20:26 the middle the middle line the first person mentioned. Okay.
02:20:34 Um, right. Moving on now to your first kiss, Sara. You say in your witness statement at paragraph 3.4, you think this was shortly after that trip to France. Um,
02:20:52 again we're talking sort of autumn winter 98 if I understand correctly. Can you remember? Sorry, I I appreciate these are sensitive details. So if I go too far, please let me know. But can you remember the context in which that first kiss happened? No, I can't remember.
02:21:11 No, I can't remember. Did he initiate that first kiss or was it mutual or instigated by you? I can't remember. Um,
02:21:17 still paragraph 3.4 of your witness statement, you say, it's on the next
02:21:28 statement, you say, it's on the next page on page six. You say, "Although our relationship was very affectionate from the beginning, we didn't have sex for the first few months." Mhm.
02:21:32 Mhm. What do you mean there by affectionate? Do you mean physically tactile or something? from what I remember. Yeah, we were affectionate and um Yeah. Yeah. Um
02:21:51 did you engage in sexual activity other than full sex over this period or was it quite chased?
02:22:01 I would say yeah it was probably quite ching
02:22:03 ching but not much more.
02:22:11 I think so. Um maybe it was the first few weeks, not months. I can't remember fully.
02:22:12 fully. Sure.
02:22:18 Sure. I know he was a true at the beginning. Um
02:22:23 were you spending the night together? Obviously I No, we were we were I can remember now. Yeah, we did spend the night together and we still weren't have so there was
02:22:37 and we still weren't have so there was some sort of um engagement but not full not full sex. Yeah. Right. Um
02:22:39 Um still in this paragraph 3.4 but on page six you you you just mentioned it now he was a little reticent. I remember now at the beginning. Yeah.
02:22:50 Yeah. So do you mean by that just that he wasn't instigating sex? He was um Yeah. He was holding back and wanted to wait. Did he say that explicitly or was that an impression you just got from his behavior?
02:23:01 behavior? Um, no. I remember him I think as far as I can remember he was saying to to wait and I can't remember
02:23:12 saying to to wait and I can't remember whether that was around contraception or something else. I can't remember. Right. But you remember him saying he wanted to wait. Yeah.
02:23:18 Yeah. um even though you weren't having full sex with him, did you during this period of time consider yourself to be in a fully committed monogous relationship?
02:23:33 fully committed monogous relationship? Um from my point of view, yes, we were in a relationship at that point. Um was it your impression that that's what he considered the relationship to be?
02:23:39 be? Yeah.
02:23:41 Yeah. What gave you that impression? Just the intimacy between us. And I don't just mean physically, I mean in general
02:23:50 general um the connection and that we had with each other.
02:24:01 that we had with each other. Um not going into any details and I don't please again if I if I go too far please tell me but you mentioned that you think the reticence might be tied up into contraception tied up with contraception if I understand correctly. Was there an issue of sorting out contraception?
02:24:26 I can't I can't remember. Um can you remember at this stage Sara roughly how much time you spent together over the whole course of the relationship? No no no sorry in this discrete period. So before you were having sex with one another but when you were involved in a intimate relationship shall we say?
02:24:41 intimate relationship shall we say? I can't remember. I wouldn't like to put a time on it. Sure, don't worry. Um, now looking at what James Thompson told you about himself.
02:24:50 himself. Yeah.
02:24:56 Yeah. The power base profile. This is at 352 page 4, sir. It's at B13.
02:25:06 And it says Straven told Sara she was 2 years his senior
02:25:17 years his senior which meant that he was born around 1968 and was 30 age 3031 in 1998 when they started going out but in reality he was actually born on the 14th of December 63. So he was making himself out to be approximately 5 years younger from that.
02:25:31 years younger from that. Is that your recollection? Is that what he said to you? That Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
02:25:35 Yeah. Um,
02:25:42 if we could bring up please Ellie's witness statement. This is UCPI 38206,
02:25:50 page seven, and it's paragraph 4.9.
02:25:57 Sara, she's referring here to when she started seeing James Thompson. It's just on this issue of age. Yeah.
02:26:07 Yeah. And she says when we started seeing each other, which was around early 2001, I understand. He said he was 33 and that his birthday was the 24th of November. Sorry. He initially told me he was 33
02:26:20 Sorry. He initially told me he was 33 years old and that his birthday was the 24th of November. And then looking at paragraph 4.10, 10. She says, "Sometime later, maybe a few days or a week, James rang me, saying he had been talking to
02:26:34 rang me, saying he had been talking to Sara and during conversation referred to himself as being 33." At which point, Sara laughed, calling him a liar because he was 36. He told me that he realized Sara was right. He was actually 36, not 33.
02:26:50 right. He was actually 36, not 33. I met Sari years after all this came out and asked her about this and she said that the conversation around his age had never taken place. Does that ring any bell with you? Do you remember having a conversation with
02:27:03 remember having a conversation with James Thompson in which you told him he was 36, not 33? No, because my understanding until I found out the truth was that he was two years younger than me or three years younger than me. I can't remember exactly now, but he was younger than me.
02:27:15 exactly now, but he was younger than me. Yeah, I understand. So, in fact, he would have So, that would have made him older than me. that wouldn't have happened. I understand. Okay. Thank you. Um just talking in general terms about
02:27:27 Um just talking in general terms about what James Thompson told you about his job. Mhm.
02:27:35 job. Mhm. Um the powerbase document uh this is 352 page 4 sir it's at B13 says this and this is attributed to you Sara Draven said he was a location manager/scout for TV programs and films. His job was
02:27:48 for TV programs and films. His job was finding sites that would be filmed at. This meant he needed to be away for days at a time traveling a lot. Is that your recollection? Yes, I have.
02:28:04 Is that your recollection? Yes, I have. So when you were together, when you knew him,
02:28:11 he went away a lot. That was your understanding that he had to travel a lot
02:28:12 lot for his job. For his job? Yeah.
02:28:15 Yeah. Did he tell you at that time specifically where he would be going? Every time before he went away, would he say where he was going? Some of the times. Yeah.
02:28:31 Some of the times. Yeah. And would he so he'd tell you if he was going abroad or if he was going somewhere else in England? Yeah.
02:28:33 Yeah. And would he disclose to you details about the films he was working on, the people, the actors and actresses in those films?
02:28:48 actors and actresses in those films? No. No, it was always more about I know the only one I remember was the Rosalind Piltchure one in Scotland. Yeah.
02:28:52 Yeah. And um and then he went abroad and gosh, you know, I can't even remember where now. I think it was in Sicily at one point allegedly. Fine. Okay. But that that's what he told you. Yeah.
02:28:58 Yeah. Um,
02:29:00 Um, looking now to his personal life, you say in your witness statement, uh, we don't need to bring it up, but for the transcript, it's paragraph 3.10,
02:29:17 the transcript, it's paragraph 3.10, that he told you he had three children with an exartner. Is that correct? Yeah, that is. Um, and did he give you the clear impression that this was an ex partner, not an ex-wife, or was that not really something he clarified?
02:29:30 something he clarified? No, I think it was ex partner. Um,
02:29:33 Um, the powerbased profile states that he said he had three children, two girls, and a boy aged between seven and 11 years. Is that accurate?
02:29:44 accurate? About right? Yeah. Did he give you the impression that he was a very devoted father? Yeah.
02:29:57 Yeah. Um, how did he give you that impression? That they were his priority. He made that clear, right?
02:30:03 right? That if he'd been abroad, for example, his priority would have been to see them when he got back. I understand. Um, you say in your witness statement, Sara, at paragraph 3.10 10 that he told you
02:30:22 at paragraph 3.10 10 that he told you that his exartner, so I think the mother of these children had duped him into having his first child. Yeah.
02:30:24 Yeah. Is that accurate? Um, yeah.
02:30:29 yeah. How did he tell you that? Um,
02:30:30 Um, how did he tell me? Straightforward, I think, that he he had been tricked into having the first child.
02:30:40 child. Did he give you the impression that this was something about which he bore a grudge.
02:30:50 I can't remember. I don't think so. I can't remember. Possibly. Possibly. Um,
02:31:00 at the time, can you remember what you thought when he told you that?
02:31:11 I thought it was strange that he went on then if that was the case to have two more.
02:31:15 more. Did you say that to him or was that just a internal? I would have asked. I would have thought how come we had two more? Can you recall what he said? No.
02:31:35 Did he give you the impression that he three children was enough?
02:31:44 I don't think we talked about it. I can't remember. Um, looking now what he told you, Sara, about his previous relationship. Um, he
02:31:54 Um, he told you, I understand, that his exartner, the mother of his children, was with someone else. Um, what if anything did he say to you
02:32:07 Um, what if anything did he say to you about why that previous relationship had ended?
02:32:18 I can't remember. Um, did he make out to you? Well, did did he give you any sense of how long he'd been single for? Like how long ago that relationship had ended? No.
02:32:25 No. So you had no idea if he'd had a relationship subsequent to that?
02:32:31 that? No.
02:32:33 No. Um,
02:32:38 Um, moving now to the start of the sexual relationship. Sara, um, I understand from your witness statement that it the relationship became sexual. This is 3.5 of your witness statement.
02:32:53 witness statement. Um, is it right to say that was around spring 1999?
02:33:00 It could have been sooner. I can't remember. I don't think there was a massive gap between when we got together and when we first had sex. I understand. Um, and the decision to make the relationship
02:33:14 decision to make the relationship sexual, was that a mutual decision? Yeah.
02:33:19 Yeah. You say in your witness statement that after the point at which you started having sex with one another, it quickly became a serious intense relationship. So I understand from that did it it it sort of went up a gear, shifted up a
02:33:33 sort of went up a gear, shifted up a gear once you started having sex. It became more intense physically but also emotionally. Yeah.
02:33:40 Yeah. Um,
02:33:42 Um, to the best of your recollection, once you started having sex with one another, did you start spending more time with one another?
02:33:55 one another? I don't think we spent more time. It was usually two to three times a week around around that and it was it it varied on travel because I was traveling as well. Um, when you did spend time together, where did you tend to spend time
02:34:09 where did you tend to spend time together? Was it at your place? mainly at mine or or at friends houses that were part of our group. Um when you spent the night with one another, was that generally at your house?
02:34:16 house? Yeah.
02:34:19 Yeah. Right. Um did you ever spend the night at his house? Once at the flat in Sydney Road. Yeah. And you refer in your witness statement to his not seeming very at home there.
02:34:32 home there. It was totally not his style and it didn't look lived in. Right. Um, and you comment also on finding that quite odd. Yeah, especially I'm reading his the third statement now to say that he
02:34:45 third statement now to say that he actually spent more time in his in that address than at his real home. Um, so unless he changed that enormously for me, it didn't look like anybody lived there.
02:34:52 there. Right. Um, I found it quite strange and I thought that was because he was traveling so much. It was just a touchdown base. Um,
02:35:05 much. It was just a touchdown base. Um, when you the fact that you spent most of your time and your nights together at your house, was that something he seemed to prefer? Did he push for that? Um,
02:35:19 Um, yeah. I think it was it was always more him coming over to to where I was living. Yeah. Yeah.
02:35:30 living. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, if I could take you Sara to HN16's witness statement, which is 3 UCPI 3LE 53,
02:35:35 uh, page 102, paragraph 279.
02:35:52 Um, he says this about a particular report
02:35:54 report He says, "I have been referred to the report dated the 29th of March 1999 at MPS01923
02:36:06 titled Cuden Sab's Privacy Sanctuary." We actually looked at that report earlier um which names both Wendy and Sara. And he says this, "I was not in a relationship with Sara at the time of this report and so would have met her
02:36:21 this report and so would have met her through huntsabbing." Um, it's a slight nonsequiter, but just looking at the date of that report, Sara, which is the 29th of March, 1999. Yeah.
02:36:32 Yeah. Were you in a relationship as far as you can recall? You were?
02:36:33 You were? Yeah.
02:36:34 Yeah. Yeah. You're certain of that? Yeah. It was started late 98.
02:36:48 Yeah. It was started late 98. Yeah. And the the the sexual relations finished around about Christmas New Year 99 2000 and then we had a year of being in platonic before I moved abroad. Understood. Um looking now at the nature of your
02:37:00 looking now at the nature of your relationship with him, the quality of it, you
02:37:05 it, you talk eloquently about this in your witness statement. Um,
02:37:12 Um, it's if if we bring it up, it's UCPI 38210.
02:37:15 38210. It's page six, paragraph 3.6.
02:37:23 Um, I won't read it out, but I'll I'll just use it as a prompt, but can you just describe for us, Sara, just what it was about your what you felt your relationship was like? Like what
02:37:34 your relationship was like? Like what were the the positive aspects of this relationship? Um, I felt like I've met somebody who
02:37:47 Um, I felt like I've met somebody who really got me and who got my life on all levels, especially the spiritual aspect of my life that was happening getting deeper at that time. We had a lot of fun together
02:37:57 together and there was just a connection. It felt for me like a soul connection. The only way I can describe it like a somebody I'd known a lot longer than I actually did on some level. Yeah. It wasn't just on the physical mental plane. There was something else for me going on there.
02:38:08 going on there. So, it was really profound. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Profound. Yeah. Um, you say also in that paragraph you you seem to have a lot in common. So, shared interests
02:38:20 shared interests and
02:38:25 and you like talking about music, books, politics.
02:38:26 politics. Um, and you refer also to discussing with him your family and friends. Is that accurate?
02:38:37 that accurate? Yeah, I would have talked about that for sure.
02:38:39 sure. So,
02:38:41 So, and he he met some of my friends and he met he met my parents as well.
02:38:54 met he met my parents as well. Did he Did he meet them more than once? Um, he met my he met my No, I think he met them once. I think it was once. Um can you recall sort of the context in which he met him met in which they met? We went yeah I think my parents I can't remember they had moved recently but we
02:39:06 remember they had moved recently but we went round just for him to meet them. I think he came to pick me up from there right
02:39:10 right um and he came in for a cup of tea and a chat with them and at that time he was introduced to them as your boyfriend as your boyfriend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um you say in that paragraph also that
02:39:25 Um you say in that paragraph also that you would talk about your job. Um was it the case I mean I infer from that that he was interest very interested in you and in your life and in the details. Yeah. Very yeah yeah yeah very supportive and yeah
02:39:36 supportive and yeah um
02:39:41 in terms of the activities that you engaged in with one another um you again I don't think we need to bring it up but it's paragraph 3.11 of your witness statement and you say that together you would go out for dinner you'd go away
02:39:58 would go out for dinner you'd go away together um I'm aware from your evidence so far Sara well we're going to get to the trip to Goa, but from your witness statement and from what we've heard from you today that you went to Goa with him and you went to France with him. Did you
02:40:13 and you went to France with him. Did you make any more trips abroad with him that you
02:40:16 you No, I went to the day trip to France, the longer period to France and No, I think that was it. And to go. Yeah. In India. Yeah. Um, you refer in your
02:40:27 India. Yeah. Um, you refer in your witness statement to going to WMAD together and going on a break to Glastonbury. I understand that to be the place, not the music festival. Yeah, the place. Yeah. Yeah.
02:40:45 Yeah, the place. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you say also that sometimes when he'd been away, he would sometimes turn up at your work unannounced. Um, so
02:40:49 Um, so I infer from that that he was quite spontaneous and yeah, I would get a call and he'd say, "I'm outside. Can you can you get out for a coffee?" Right. Yeah.
02:41:00 Right. Yeah. You know, he'd come back. For me, it was like it was surprising me that he was back and he turned up. Yeah.
02:41:03 Yeah. So, it's quite romantic. Mhm.
02:41:04 Mhm. Behavior. I mean, classically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For me. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any arrows with him? Was there any conflict? No, not Rouse. No.
02:41:22 No, not Rouse. No. Um, you referred earlier to the profound level of connection. Did you feel he was your soulmate? Yeah, in some ways I did. That's that's where the connection for me felt deepest was on a soul level.
02:41:37 was on a soul level. Um, and I mean, is it too much of a stretch, Sara, to say that he was he was almost like a perfect man. That's the way he was presenting himself. No, I wouldn't say he was perfect, but
02:41:52 No, I wouldn't say he was perfect, but fair enough. Um, but he had, should we say, a lot of attractive qualities that he was the way he presented himself to you.
02:41:54 you. Yeah. Yeah, that's very fair. Yeah. And, um,
02:42:00 And, um, he certainly seemed committed to you. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah.
02:42:11 You say in your witness statement, if we go to paragraph 3.19, which is page eight,
02:42:12 eight, um
02:42:21 you say that you fell for James quickly and definitely in the first few months. Mhm.
02:42:27 Mhm. And um you say I'm I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but you say that you adored him and that you were cautious about telling him the depth of my feelings, but they must have been obvious. And then a little further on, I know that in the first year I didn't want to rush
02:42:40 the first year I didn't want to rush anything or push him too hard. I sense that it needed to move slowly. And you also go on to say, if he had asked, I would have married him. Mhm. Um
02:42:54 Um why do you believe it would have been obvious to him the depth of your feelings?
02:43:00 feelings? Because of the um the feeling. It was a mutual thing for me. We just really enjoyed each other's company and I was always over the moon to see him.
02:43:13 always over the moon to see him. To the extent that you don't, if I understand correctly, you wouldn't have felt the way you felt unless it was reciprocated. Yeah. Yeah. Uh Wendy in her witness statement refers to being aware that you were in love
02:43:30 to being aware that you were in love with him. Um I can just bring that up quickly. That's Wendy's witness statement. That's 38208 page five,
02:43:34 paragraph 4.3.
02:43:41 And I understand Sara she's your close friend at this stage. And she says, "I knew Sara and James were together, saw each other regularly, were intimate, and that Sara was in love with James."
02:43:56 with James." So, did you talk to Wendy about your relationship with James, your feelings for James? Yeah, I would have done. I can't remember exactly what I said, but I would have done.
02:44:13 would have done. Sure. Um, was it your impression that other members of Cuden Hunt a were aware that you and James were a couple? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And that you're in a serious relationship. Yeah, I would say. Yeah.
02:44:28 Yeah, I would say. Yeah. You in these extracts you refer to being cautious and having the feeling that you needed to move slowly.
02:44:41 Can I ask what gave you that impression? just um I think the compartmentalization of his life and his kids and maybe his past relationship, there was something there that just felt even though he was we were very together in a lot of ways,
02:44:55 we were very together in a lot of ways, there was there was a little bit of him that was held back, right?
02:44:59 right? And there was it was just intuitive really to not push and rush. Fine. I understand. So it wasn't something he explicitly he he wasn't explicitly saying let's take this slowly but it was just
02:45:12 but it was just No no no no there was it was more my feeling
02:45:14 feeling right because he was a little bit guarded and kept yeah I would say he was compartmentalized and um
02:45:28 and um yeah a little bit a little bit there was something there that wasn't clear sure Um
02:45:35 you but I didn't stop the feeling I had for him if that makes sense. I also said that I would have married him because I felt that deep. Sure.
02:45:41 Sure. There was just something very very deep and particular about it. Yeah. Um you refer in your witness statement uh
02:45:50 uh paragraph 3.19 to the weekend you went away together to Glastonbury. This is in summer 1999.
02:46:01 summer 1999. And you say that on that trip he told you that he loved you. How did you feel when he said that to you?
02:46:14 Really glad. So this was the first time just for the avoidance and it kind of confirmed for me um my feeling in the relationship as well. So yeah, it was a it was a good moment for me.
02:46:27 moment for me. And did you tell him you loved him? I'm sure I would have done. Yeah. And after that first declaration, did he continue to tell you that he loved you? No.
02:46:36 No. Right.
02:46:42 Right. Not that I recall. That's why it was so such a particular moment. Um yeah,
02:46:43 yeah, understand.
02:46:48 Um
02:46:59 just referring briefly Sara to something again in the power base profile. Um
02:47:06 Um that's UCPI 352. It's page 17. Sarah, it's at B13. There's a reference here to a weird incident that took place one time when he was abroad. Um, and it's attributed to you. We'll
02:47:20 Um, and it's attributed to you. We'll just look at it very briefly. It says this, that she, as in you, spoke to James on the phone and he complained about problems with his back. He said he had to take a rest. She asked for an address to send him something. I am
02:47:33 I am ordered flowers and got a call the next day that the delivery had failed. The address was a B&B and no James Straven was known there. He made up a story about it being owned by family of his and that maybe the employee was new and
02:47:49 and that maybe the employee was new and perhaps did not know he was there. Sara remembers thinking it was a bit odd. Do you recall this incident? I totally recall that. Yeah. Sara, was this when you were in a sexual relationship with him?
02:48:01 relationship with him? I think it was. Yeah.
02:48:13 the point about his having a sore back. There are some semicontemporaneous SDS documents which suggest that he injured his back around November 99. So
02:48:27 injured his back around November 99. So about a year after you've been after you started
02:48:34 started seeing one another. Do you think that could be around the time this happened? Late.
02:48:36 Late. Yeah.
02:48:42 possibly. Do you have any recollection of of an incident in which he was on a protest and he slid down an embankment in the north of England? Does that ring any bell? Don't worry. Um,
02:48:57 my understanding of the weird incident when when you tried to phone these sk these flowers delivered to him, was was he in England or was he abroad? No, he was in England.
02:49:10 No, he was in England. He was in England, right? Um, when he gave you the explanation that he did, did you push him on it? I can't remember. I'm sure I would have I'm sure I would have questioned him a bit about it. Yeah. But you gave
02:49:22 But you gave I do remember him saying it was I do remember him saying something like it was it was owned by his family and he'd gone there for a couple of days to rest, right?
02:49:32 right? And that maybe he just hadn't been Yeah, I do remember something like that. Yeah. So I probably would have questioned him more about where it, you know, more about his family stuff or Yeah.
02:49:45 Yeah. You know, the fact that they owned properties, right? Can you remember anything he said about that on that occasion? Not really. I can remember at one point thinking something like his family owned half of Scotland. I don't know why.
02:49:57 half of Scotland. I don't know why. There was a impression that he gave that there was um that was going on. Yeah. Yeah. That there was money that he came from a moneyed Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so if I understand your evidence correctly, he gave you this odd
02:50:13 correctly, he gave you this odd explanation, but you ultimately you gave him the benefit of the doubt. Yeah.
02:50:22 Moving now to the progression of the relationship. Um, you talk in your witness statement about what appears to be a mounting sense of confusion about the direction of the relationship. Um, if we can go to
02:50:37 relationship. Um, if we can go to paragraph 3.22, please of Sor's witness statement 38210, page nine. Yeah. Um, you say this, I remember as time
02:50:51 Um, you say this, I remember as time went on that I knew I needed to talk to him about where the relationship was going. I journaled about the relationship regularly. I journaled about the depth of feeling we had for each other and the confusion I had about our future together. As despite his
02:51:06 our future together. As despite his clear depth of feeling for me, he seemed to hold back so that I was not sure where I fitted into his life. And you refer elsewhere to the compart
02:51:19 And you refer elsewhere to the compart compartment sorry comp I can't say the compartmentmentalization of his life. Apologies struggling with that. Um, this is at paragraph 3.23. You say, "His life was very compartmentalized.
02:51:32 life was very compartmentalized. Something didn't sit quite right. It was as if there was a part of him that was kept at bay."
02:51:44 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have referred not long ago to this compartmentalization. Um,
02:51:46 Um, are there any other ways you can recall that he seemed to hold himself back? Yeah. through not meeting, you know, not meeting his children. Um, so there wasn't anything outside of
02:52:02 so there wasn't anything outside of he met my friends, I didn't meet his Yeah.
02:52:08 Yeah. You know, it was he had work, he had his children, he had the animal rights stuff.
02:52:08 stuff. Yeah.
02:52:12 Yeah. And me and it it all seemed to be a little bit segregated. Um, would you ask him direct questions about
02:52:20 about his friends and his family and Yeah, I'm I I mean, I can't remember exactly what they would have been, but I'm pretty certain I would have done for sure.
02:52:34 sure. And did you receive direct answers to these types of questions or not? Um sometimes depending I mean he talked a bit little bit about his dad and his background and some travel that he that
02:52:46 background and some travel that he that he personally had done. Um he sometimes talked and I can't remember details about what he had done with kids or work meetings and things like that. Um looking at the effect this had on you this this sense that he was
02:52:58 this this sense that he was compartmentalizing his life in holding things back. Um you say in your witness statement uh paragraph 3.2 23. You say you were very preoccupied with this. So much so that there were nights when I
02:53:10 much so that there were nights when I could not sleep for running it over in my mind and writing in my journal about it. However, I was totally in love with
02:53:22 it. However, I was totally in love with him and just thought that was how he was and that he was a very private person. Yeah.
02:53:26 Yeah. So I understand from that Sara that because of the mixed messages you were getting, it was it was taking up a lot of your mental energy, you were very preoccupied with this. Um
02:53:37 preoccupied with this. Um but your conclusion was that the reason for this was simply that he was private.
02:53:49 Yeah. And I think you know thinking about it now you know he talked about this background in martial arts which I now realize it like invokes a lot of control in somebody's life. So I think
02:54:02 control in somebody's life. So I think there may have even been a little bit of that going on with me at the time. Do you mean do you mean by that the style in which he lived his life was very controlled. I understand. Yeah. And and sort of self-disciplined and keeping things
02:54:16 self-disciplined and keeping things Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Apart from one another. Yeah.
02:54:16 Yeah. So in essence you were and Yeah. Yeah. And also obviously because of the disparagy between the life he was living and the life his
02:54:30 life he was living and the life his family had wanted for him. Um that maybe that's why things weren't weren't joined. You know I understand. Um and by that you mean because he told you I think I understand from another point in your witness. He had told you that his dad wanted him to go into the army. Yeah. Yeah.
02:54:44 Yeah. Yeah. And he chose not to go down that path. Um, but ultimately again, if I understand your evidence correctly, you you
02:54:50 you constantly gave him the benefit of the doubt, you found benign justifications for the way he was behaving.
02:54:56 behaving. Yeah.
02:55:01 Moving now to the end of the sexual relationship, you say in your witness statement at paragraph 3.24, 24. It's on page 10.
02:55:12 paragraph 3.24, 24. It's on page 10. That over Christmas 1999, you didn't hear from James for about two weeks despite your repeated efforts to make contact with him. And you say we were
02:55:28 contact with him. And you say we were always in touch every few days. So, I was quite alarmed and upset by this. Um, if we could explore that, Sara,
02:55:37 what did you think had happened when you couldn't make? I didn't know. He just disappeared off the scene. And for me, especially at that time of year, you know, it was a time where, you know, intimacy can deepen or you just, you
02:55:51 intimacy can deepen or you just, you know, you would expect to be hanging out a little bit with the person you're in love with. Um, and usually if he'd gone away, you know, if he was away with his kids or he was away on a work
02:56:02 kids or he was away on a work assignment, I would know about it and roughly how long he would be. And we were always in touch when he was away. So, the fact that he just totally disappeared, I I got quite concerned about it as well. I was like, what's happened to him?
02:56:13 happened to him? You worried about his
02:56:20 You worried about his It wasn't normal for him not to respond. Yeah. It was really odd. Um the last if you can remember the last time you saw him before he disappeared. Can you remember what he said about what he was doing over Christmas or any of his No. And that's why I think I was so I didn't have any clue nothing as to why
02:56:34 didn't have any clue nothing as to why he wasn't in touch. It didn't make any sense. I can remember that it's like really like what's going on here? Cuz usually I would know if he was going away. Um,
02:56:42 away. Um, when you say you trying constantly to contact him, was that email, telephone, both?
02:56:49 both? I probably would have been telephone and text messaging. And were you voicing in the text messages how your levels of concern and discuss?
02:57:03 discuss? I would imagine that would have stepped up as as as the time went on. Probably not the beginning, but I can imagine that would have stepped up as time went on. I can't remember directly what I wrote or said. Um,
02:57:16 Um, and you say you think this was a two-eek period. I mean, at the risk of making you state the obvious, by the end of that twoe period, can you describe your mental state?
02:57:28 I would have been really upset, confu probably confused. I would have been confused because it didn't make sense. Yeah. compared to how we'd been in in connection before that. Um, and it would have brought up
02:57:43 have brought up some insecurity as well, I would imagine.
02:57:46 imagine. Yeah. Did Did you suspect he might have cheated or found someone else? No. No, not it wasn't around that. I didn't That didn't enter my head actually. It was more around I don't know. Was it to do with his children,
02:58:02 know. Was it to do with his children, his work? I There wasn't It didn't make any sense to me. I didn't think he'd gone off with someone else. Um I mean I'm gathering from what you say that that Christmas period was effectively ruined by this.
02:58:13 effectively ruined by this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not knowing what was happening. And Yeah. I didn't know where that left us in the relationship, you know, but he just disappeared off the scene after Yeah.
02:58:22 Yeah. after all that time. And up until that point, you were under the impression you were in a very serious loving relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I understand from your witness statement that this brought things to a
02:58:37 statement that this brought things to a heads of sorts, um, in that you sent him an email. This is at 3.25 of your witness statement. You sent him an email asking him what was going on and telling him that it wasn't acceptable and that
02:58:48 him that it wasn't acceptable and that it was time for a conversation about our relationship and where it was going. Something along those lines. Yeah. And you say, "This was the first time I challenged him on his behavior." as far as I remember. Yeah. Yeah.
02:59:05 as far as I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I understand that he did reply to that email and he said he needed to see you. Is that accurate? Yeah. I can't remember if he replied to the email or whether he phoned or text, but he contacted me in some way to say that he needed to see me.
02:59:20 that he needed to see me. Um, can you remember, don't worry if you can't, the tone of that communication? Did he seem contrite? Did he seem to appreciate how upset you were? I can I can just remember there was a feeling of of oh god I can't even put my finger on it. Um
02:59:32 it. Um urgency needing to to see me about something. Yeah. Contritness. Now I wouldn't say that was the right word. No.
02:59:47 No. Moving on now to the letter that he gave you. You talk about this Sara in your witness statement at paragraph 3.26 and you say that he came round to your house. So this is early January 2000 if I understand correctly.
03:00:03 I understand correctly. And he gave you a letter. So he handed it to you in person. Yeah.
03:00:06 Yeah. And then left you alone to read it. Is that accurate? Uh you talk in paragraph 3.27 about what that letter contained.
03:00:18 that letter contained. Um I'll read this out, but if there's anything you want to add afterwards, please do if it jogs your memory. that he said in this letter that he thought the world of you and he acknowledged your deep connection,
03:00:34 your deep connection, but that he had difficulties maintaining intimate relationships for long periods of time due to traumatic childhood experiences. And said that when he had been at boarding school, his best friend had been raped by the headmaster and had subsequently committed suicide.
03:00:46 subsequently committed suicide. But you say he might have said this in person and that this had a profound impact on him. And you said that his first sexual relationship had been with
03:00:57 first sexual relationship had been with a 35year-old teacher from his school and that this had impacted him significantly. Does that cover the contents of the letter he gave you? that that covers that in the same yeah on that level in the same letter where he'd said about
03:01:12 the same letter where he'd said about his feelings for me we had he that he he and I think it's in my statement somewhere that he would still wanted us to go on the trip to go together as planned even though he couldn't continue in an intimate sexual relationship and
03:01:24 in an intimate sexual relationship and he hoped that we would still be able to do that.
03:01:27 do that. Okay. All right. Well, I'll I'll come to that. Okay. Um, but on on reading this part of the letter, reading about these what he claimed were deeply painful, difficult childhood experiences.
03:01:42 experiences. Can you describe Sara how you felt when you read that? Yeah, I felt a lot of compassion for him and I think it also
03:01:53 and I think it also gave me an inkling into why he's he behaved like he did, right?
03:01:55 right? You know, with the compartmentalization and all of that sort of thing. Yeah. though I I think it probably also gave me a bit of an explanation. Yeah. That I could understand a little bit more.
03:02:03 more. Yeah.
03:02:06 Yeah. Um his way his way of being in the world.
03:02:09 world. I understand. Um
03:02:14 Um so you read this letter alone and then I understand from your witness statement he he'd been outside not in your house when you did that but then he came to the house not long after you'd read the letter. Is that accurate?
03:02:27 letter. Is that accurate? No. Yeah. I think he went for a walk. He might have even stayed. Do you know I I can remember him saying he needed to give me a letter. He'd leave it with me and come back when I'd read it. But, you know, in that in that very short period of time,
03:02:39 of time, give me the letter, go, come back once I'd read it. As in saying Yeah.
03:02:44 Yeah. half an hour, but I do, you know, I I think that's what's happened. He He could have sat there when I read it. I I I think he wasn't there. I think I'm right in what I say there, but I'm having a bit of a
03:02:56 but I'm having a bit of a Yeah, don't worry. Yeah. But shortly, but the contents of the letter are correct.
03:03:06 correct. Sure. And and in essence, shortly after you read the letter, he you and he then had a conversation about it face to face.
03:03:06 face. Yes. Yeah. Um you say about this discussion in your witness statement, this is paragraph 3.28, 28. You say that he said that he felt bad for having started the
03:03:19 felt bad for having started the relationship with me, knowing the impact his past had on his ability to sustain intimate relationships, but that he had wanted to be with me again. Sarah, can you remember how
03:03:32 again. Sarah, can you remember how you felt at the time when you heard this? Yeah, I mean I I think I think there was still empathy there, but there was also like, well, why did you start it in the first place then if you knew
03:03:44 it in the first place then if you knew that was the case? So, there was a bit of a confrontation about that as well, you know? So, why would you start to have that with me if you knew that it couldn't go anywhere? And his explanation for that
03:03:59 explanation for that um was that he he wanted to be with me and because it was considered a normal you know a normal thing to do he he he did that because he wanted to be with me right
03:04:12 right because it was too early to say probably then that he was unable to have sexual relationships but you know that put into context for me as well why he why he hadn't wanted to have sex you know earlier. Sure.
03:04:20 Sure. And that sort of thing. Yeah. And for me on a on a bigger picture that whole story
03:04:32 picture that whole story was that all pre-planned so that it all made sense all the way down the line, you know.
03:04:32 you know. Yeah.
03:04:38 Yeah. All the jigsaw puzzle bits being put together way in advance of all of this happening. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
03:04:42 Um, you say that when he when challenged and he said that he had a sexual relationship with you because
03:04:53 a sexual relationship with you because he wanted to be close to you and sex was a normal part of closeness that it didn't really answer the question at the time. So I infer from that that it it you remained confused
03:05:07 you remained confused but again you gave him the benefit of the doubt.
03:05:18 Is that right? Yeah. I mean, there was always a question of why did he start that if he knew it was unmaintainable. Um,
03:05:24 Um, you also say in paragraph 3.29 that he told you when you were having this conversation that he realized it wasn't fair on you to continue the sexual relationship, but that he still wanted you to be together.
03:05:37 you to be together. Yeah. Um, what did you understand him to mean by that? That to still have a closeness and a connection and a relationship with me that was based on everything else we shared, but that that excluded a sexual relationship.
03:05:50 relationship. But by that, did he mean you would still be a couple of sorts? That's how I understood it at that time. Yeah.
03:05:56 Yeah. So, a couple but just a couple who didn't have sex. Yeah.
03:06:12 Yeah. Um, but and who wouldn't have any physical intimacy, sexual intimacy at all? I Yeah, I think so. I think so. Um, you've referred to
03:06:19 to his saying in the letter that he still wanted to go with you to Goa. Yeah. Uh
03:06:26 Yeah. Uh again, we'll look at that trip in a little more detail, but when
03:06:28 when you read this letter, when you had this subsequent discussion, is it accurate to say that you were still very much in love with him? Yes.
03:06:40 Yes. And putting aside your feelings of empathy,
03:06:49 empathy, were you feeling heartbroken, disappointed? How did you feel about your
03:06:54 your I think there was a lot of mixed emotion going on there because I think there was something that clicked about ah that makes sense to why he had been behaving like he had there was also sure some disappointment but there was a
03:07:06 sure some disappointment but there was a lot of hope also because that wasn't the main part of our relationship. It was a deeper connection than that you know.
03:07:10 know. Yeah.
03:07:13 Yeah. And for me at that time it felt like it could be something manageable. Yeah I understand forward. So you didn't feel it was the death blow to the relationship by any stretch?
03:07:30 Not not the death blow. No. No. I thought there was still it would it could still continue um
03:07:34 um because of the depth of feeling that was there.
03:07:36 there. Yeah. Because of the profound connection. Yeah.
03:07:42 Yeah. Uh paragraph 330 of your witness statement, you say this. I was very shocked by the content of the letter, but I felt I had nothing but compassion and empathy for him. I remember him
03:07:53 and empathy for him. I remember him lying with his head on my lap while I stroked his head as we talked. I can remember him saying that it should have been him comforting me and that he was relieved that I was prepared still to see him.
03:08:04 see him. So, if I understand that correctly, it was actually you comforting him to some extent.
03:08:09 extent. Yeah.
03:08:10 Yeah. even though you were the one who had been given sort of disappointing news for want of a better way of putting it. Yeah.
03:08:21 Yeah. Um
03:08:30 Um is it accurate Sara that he knew by this stage he knew you well enough to know you were a very tenderhearted person?
03:08:40 person? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Um, so is it your impression that he would have known that this is how you would have reacted to hearing these things about his past? Yeah, most likely. Yeah.
03:08:54 Yeah, most likely. Yeah. And also, I mean, you you refer to challenging him, but that really this the detail in this letter, it neutralized any sort of anger you might feel towards him at this stage. Is that accurate?
03:09:00 accurate? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
03:09:12 We'll just do one more topic, Sara, before lunch. There's not actually lots more to cover, just so you know. Okay.
03:09:14 Okay. But I don't think we'll finish before lunch, but No,
03:09:18 No, we don't have lots more to cover. Moving now to what James Thompson said about why the relationship ended. Mhm.
03:09:33 about why the relationship ended. Mhm. Um he talks about this in his witness statement UCPI 3LE 53 page 102
03:09:35 page 102 paragraph 277.
03:09:41 And he says this, "The sexual relationship ended through mutual agreement. I realized it was getting serious and I recognized the difficulties that would cause for both of us."
03:09:54 of us." Can you comment on the accuracy of his saying that the sexual relationship ended by mutual agreement? It ended for the reasons that we've just been through. Uh so is that mutual agreement? I don't think so. I think it was on his on his request.
03:10:05 request. Um
03:10:07 Um it was definitely on his request that the sexual relationship ended.
03:10:18 the sexual relationship ended. And uh there's no mention in his witness statement of the letter at all. Do you find that? Okay. Yeah.
03:10:25 Um, returning also just to the duration of your relationship briefly, HN16 also in his witness statement, this is page 102, paragraph 280. Yeah. Yeah.
03:10:37 Yeah. Yeah. He says, "I we've looked at this report, the one he refers to. I've been referred to the report dated the 7th of September 99 at MPS 025
03:10:54 99 at MPS 025 titled L1, which name Sara." This is the one about the car, the Ford Escort. Okay.
03:10:58 Okay. Um, and he says here, I was not in a relationship with Sara at the time of
03:11:10 relationship with Sara at the time of this report. So if this is in the latter party relationship, is it your evidence on the 7th of September 1999, were you still in a sexual relationship with James Thompson? Yes, I was. So when he says that, that's untrue. Is that your evidence? Untrue.
03:11:19 Um,
03:11:26 if I can take you to another one of his witness statements. This was his second witness statement just for the avoidance of doubt.
03:11:31 of doubt. This is UCPI 35223
03:11:40 dated the 17th of April 2018. And paragraph four of this he says in fact I had relationships with three of the women about whom I was asked to comment. The first was Sara. I
03:11:55 asked to comment. The first was Sara. I met her sometime in the middle stages of my deployment and we had a brief sexual relationship over a few weeks. That is not true as we've already uncovered.
03:12:06 uncovered. Yeah. Um and just for completion in his inquiry witness statement which came after this, he's very vague about the duration of your relationship. He says at paragraph 265, "I cannot remember how
03:12:20 at paragraph 265, "I cannot remember how long the sexual relationship lasted." We were good friends until she moved abroad.
03:12:24 abroad. The sexual relationship lasted at least a year. Over a year.
03:12:43 You say, Sara, in your witness statement that the letter that we've discussed, he explicitly asked you, I think in the letter, not to share anything in it with anyone else. Is that accurate? Yeah.
03:12:53 Yeah. And when you had the conversation with him afterwards, did you give him assurances that you would not or was
03:13:04 or was I I probably did. I can imagine. I can't remember.
03:13:08 remember. Don't worry. And I I have to say at this point that I did talk to people about that letter because it was necessary for me because the the adjustment from going from that type of relationship to
03:13:20 of relationship to that to this. Um
03:13:23 Um and maybe it's a good time to point this out or not, but that is one of the reasons for me that finding out was such a relief because I had so much guilt over that for years. And I want to make it absolutely clear at this point that
03:13:36 it absolutely clear at this point that these relationships did not just affect us during the relationship and from the date we found out, but it has been ongoing in that period in between. Yeah.
03:13:46 Yeah. And I'll have more to say about that later.
03:13:47 later. Yeah. No, I understand. Um,
03:13:54 if this doesn't seem like a a silly question, but what was your understanding at the time of why he was asking you to keep the contents of the letter secret? probably because of
03:14:08 letter secret? probably because of it. It's not something he would have wanted to widely known that he had problems around sex, right? And because it was private information about Yeah.
03:14:13 Yeah. painful
03:14:16 painful past experiences. Yeah.
03:14:17 Yeah. Um,
03:14:27 Um, thinking about it now, Sara, do you have a view on why you think he swore you to secrecy now you know the truth? Um,
03:14:35 yeah, because the contents of that letter are outrageous. It's an outrageous thing to have told me if that is not true.
03:14:47 if that is not true. And maybe some part of him knew that it would come out at some point. I don't know. Maybe he wanted to have other sexual relationships, so that wouldn't have made sense. I I don't know. Yeah.
03:14:56 Yeah. Um, now you've just referred to this, but I'll
03:15:03 but I'll take you to the relevant section of your witness statement. You say, um, at paragraph 3.32, you say, "The letter he gave me when our sexual relationship ended explicitly asked me not to share anything he had written.
03:15:16 written. I did talk to a couple of friends about it at some point. The information he had disclosed and the consequent changes to our relationship were too much for me to deal with and alone. and I needed to talk to someone for my own well-being. Yeah.
03:15:27 Yeah. So,
03:15:29 So, understandably, you needed to you you weren't gossiping about the contents of the letter. You needed to to discuss it with someone to try and make sense of it yourself.
03:15:44 yourself. Yeah. It was too big a deal for me to be able to contain that. Um Yeah.
03:15:49 Um Yeah. Alone. Yeah. Um and
03:15:50 and in effect by placing that additional burden on you by asking you not to say anything that well is it accurate to say that that did place an additional burden on you in the sense that not only had
03:16:02 on you in the sense that not only had you heard these very difficult things but you also had to keep it entirely to yourself according to and then when I didn't I had to deal with the fallout of that
03:16:13 with the fallout of that as one. Yeah. Um well again we've established he knew you were a fundamentally trustworthy decent person. Yeah.
03:16:22 Yeah. Um and do you think it's fair to say he would know that you would feel guilty about discussing this with other people? Yeah, most likely.
03:16:34 Yeah, most likely. So is it fair to say that in addition to your feelings of sadness and confusion, you also had well we know profound feelings of guilt. Did that damage your self-esteem further? Yeah. Yeah. It all contributed to that.
03:16:51 Yeah. Yeah. It all contributed to that. Um, again, at the risk of stating the obvious, but now that you know that it was all fabricated, what is your feeling about this letter?
03:17:04 I don't really have the words. No, I understand. I think you can understand how disgusting and outrageous it was to have written what he did and to put me under that sort of pressure and a pressure that has lasted over 20 years of my life.
03:17:17 years of my life. I understand.
03:17:23 So, I think might now be a good time to break for lunch. There's not a huge amount more to go, but I think there's too much that can be covered before lunch.
03:17:32 lunch. Yes. um so that Sarah can have some understanding of how much longer she's going to be giving evidence, we're able to give a rough estimate. I think we could be done by
03:17:44 I think we could be done by two. Oh, no, not two. What am I talking? Sorry. Three. Yes.
03:17:45 Yes. Yeah.
03:17:49 Yeah. But that does that include the um rule 10 process and any reexamination? We have no rule 10s. I think maybe even with re-examination maybe quarter pass three through in that area. Exactly. Can I interrupt and ask a question? No. Is that allowing me the
03:18:03 question? No. Is that allowing me the time to say the things that I would like to have heard by the inquiry? Yes, I I mean I I would hope to I'll talk to um Charlotte or your
03:18:14 talk to um Charlotte or your representative about that. Um yeah,
03:18:16 yeah, I mean that might take a little bit longer. If we don't cover if if we don't man if it's not something that's covered um than the rest of your evidence, that might add a little bit of time. Yeah.
03:18:32 might add a little bit of time. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I I hope that all of those comments are somewhat reassuring and you know that you will have the opportunity to say what you wish and be able to do so within a time that is reasonable for all of us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Then I will rise now until two.