This afternoon session features testimony from Professor Jonathan Rosenhead and Christabel Gurney OBE, both prominent anti-apartheid activists who were infiltrated by undercover officers. They describe the Anti-Apartheid Movement's lawful, democratic campaigns and express shock at being targeted for surveillance despite engaging only in peaceful, legitimate protest activities.
00:12:42 good afternoon everyone and welcome to the afternoon session of today's evidential hearings for those in the virtual hearing room please remember to turn off both your camera and microphone
00:12:53 camera and microphone i will now hand over to the chairman sir john mitten to continue proceedings chairman thank you as at the beginning of every live evidential session a recording is going to be played
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00:13:18 statute the inquiries act 2005 which gives me the power to make orders regulating the conduct of the inquiry including
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00:13:45 and after you leave them breach of any of the orders is a serious matter and may have serious consequences for you
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00:15:09 but only once at least 10 minutes have elapsed since the event which you are describing took place this restriction has a purpose in the course of the inquiry i've made orders prohibiting the public disclosure of information for example
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00:17:03 good afternoon miss hamilton are there any questions which uh may be asked of uh professor rosenthal now i have been told that there are no questions um from the parties to ask professor rosenthal
00:17:17 rosenthal thank you professor resident had done two things have i made first i didn't think you were asked formally to confirm that the witness statement that you made on the 21st of february of 2020 was true to the best of your knowledge and belief it was
00:17:29 and belief it was it um is i know that you are concerned as am i about the um conviction that you sustained all those years ago and
00:17:40 years ago and uh would if i am satisfied that there may have been a miscarriage of justice want me to refer it to a panel which is to consider these things
00:17:54 to consider these things may i take it that you would like me to do that properly rather than right at the end of the inquiry that would be good thank you i'll do my best to do that
00:18:11 when i started on this exercise then i hope you don't have too much
00:18:29 hope you don't have too much difficulty thank you very much thank you christopher gurney
00:18:35 can you hear me yes i can can you hear me
00:18:38 me and you are not muted i understand your technical competence is greater than that of professing professor rosenhead or myself i doubt it but on this occasion it's
00:18:49 i doubt it but on this occasion it's it's the excellent technical staff who have coached me
00:18:54 then miss hamilton will have some questions for you ms hamilton i'm so sorry first of all you must say whether you wish to be sworn or affirmed but then may the
00:19:06 affirmed but then may the words be spoken to you please thank you chairman good afternoon miss koenig can you see and hear me
00:19:17 i understand that you would like to a firm yes
00:19:22 firm yes thank you please repeat after me i do solemnly sincerely and truly i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:19:33 that the evidence i shall give the evidence i shall give shall be the that'd be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:19:45 nothing but the truth nothing but the truth thank you miss kearney
00:19:50 kearney chairman thank you miss hammerstein thank you sir um you were active in the anti-apartheid movement between 1969 and 1994. you were a member of the
00:20:03 and 1994. you were a member of the aam executive committee and editor of the am monthly newspaper is that right yes for part of the time the editor of the paper grateful
00:20:15 the paper grateful um and you received an obe for your political service in particular in the field of human rights in connection with your work with the aam is that right
00:20:29 you have provided a statement to the inquiry setting out not only your response to the questions posed to you by the inquiry based on the documents which you name but also the political context both in the uk
00:20:41 the uk and southern africa in which you were politically active with anti-anti-apartheid campaigning groups in the 1970s is that right um can you um have you had an
00:20:54 um can you um have you had an opportunity to review that statement prize giving evidence today yes i have and can you confirm that it's true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes i can um
00:21:07 yes i can um just so that you understand um the inquiry has noted uh your concerns about wider investigations to be made the inquiry has no remit to
00:21:20 the inquiry has no remit to investigate wider special branch activities or police activities but is simply looking at the activities of the special demonstration squad in its various incarnations
00:21:36 various incarnations um um i just want to make that clear before i ask you any further uh questions um you appear in reports that have been attributed to hn135 mike ferguson hn 346 jill mosdell
00:21:49 hn 346 jill mosdell hn 339 stuart goodman hn 326 douglas edwards an hn298 mike scott
00:22:03 an hn298 mike scott i'm going to ask you first please about your
00:22:03 your activities with the anti-apartheid movement you set out in your witness statement the origin of the am as the boycott movement in 1959
00:22:16 as the boycott movement in 1959 and that its purpose was to campaign against apartheid in south africa and more broadly white minority regimes in southern africa is that right yes um uh you
00:22:32 yes um uh you have said in your witness statement that uh
00:22:36 uh to be a member of the am you paid a subscription that you filled in a membership application form and you were then in possession of a membership card is that right uh yeah um
00:22:47 card is that right uh yeah um but that anybody could become a member of the organization yes the anti-party movement wanted to recruit as many members as it can it was totally above ground and open i understand um
00:23:03 i understand um if you have set out in your witness statement that your the group used conventional campaigning tactics which were lawful and open and you give us examples the presentation of petitions uh to
00:23:20 presentation of petitions uh to to downing street into parliament public meetings pickets demonstrations vigils letter writing campaigns and the putting on of cultural events to popularize or to um
00:23:35 to popularize or to um your calls is that right yes um did you also organize mass demonstrations as part of the aam was that part of the
00:23:46 was that part of the yes i don't know i should say at this point
00:23:49 point the whole point of the anti-apartheid movement was to well um the anti-apartheid movement never thought that it could affect change in southern africa and south africa which was primarily considered on its own it was very much
00:24:03 considered on its own it was very much um supporting people inside south africa who were struggling against the system but to do that um it realized
00:24:13 realized that uh britain in many ways uh through trade and investments and through diplomacy
00:24:14 diplomacy supported the apartheid regime and the movement thought saw its role as trying to
00:24:29 to stop that support so the whole point was to help the people inside the country by preventing assistance to the apartheid government coming from our country because we thought that you know our business was the policies of our government and to do that it wanted to create as wide
00:24:41 that it wanted to create as wide a movement as it could to effect that change
00:24:43 change thank you um can you give when you uh refer to mass demonstrations in your witness statement can you give
00:24:54 in your witness statement can you give an idea of the sort of numbers involved in a sort of typical am demonstration it changed very much over the years um and at the very beginning um counter-intuitively
00:25:08 counter-intuitively um after sharpville the massachusetts sharkville there was a very large demonstration where i think well comparatively large um and i think i think we said 20 000 i mean all these estimates are rather problematical
00:25:21 estimates are rather problematical and then in the 70s support fell off a bit because nothing very much was happening inside south africa then in the 80s which was the heyday of the anti-apartheid movement there were a quarter of a million people at clapham common
00:25:30 common um at a rock festival in effect um and then many more in 1988 at the big demonstration about
00:25:42 demonstration about um to mark mandela's birthday calling for the release of mandela of nelson mandela where i think there were a million people in high park so it varied enormously over the years and the demonstrations that were organized were they organized
00:25:56 organized were they organized in cooperation with the police or how were they
00:25:59 were they how were they matt how was the sort of security arrangement managed yes i was never i was never involved on that side of it but i do know yes they were involved in collaboration with the police
00:26:10 police thank you the roots have always agreed with the police yes thank you um i just want to look briefly please
00:26:17 please at a document mps-0742
00:26:30 so for the hard copy bundle that's behind tab 10.
00:26:38 this is not in fact an sds report it's a it's a
00:26:39 it's a special branch report
00:26:52 um it is a report about a demonstration that took place organized by the aam um on the 25th of october in 1970 and paragraph a paragraph um
00:27:07 and paragraph a paragraph um two uh sets out that there was a preceded by a smaller uh march organized by stress and labor and liberal parties uh um of some 20 people
00:27:21 uh um of some 20 people that walked up up brixton hill and um over the uh bridge uh to um the victorian embankment accompanied by uniformed police throughout with no incidents taking a place
00:27:38 with no incidents taking a place but can we move on please to paragraph three
00:27:49 which concerns the main demonstration uh the main demonstration commences expected with a march which was summed on the victoria embankment outside chancros tube station by the time the march moved off at about 2 40 p.m
00:28:03 2 40 p.m some 3 500 to 4 000 persons were involved mainly students including contingents from many of the universities in this country and other organizations representing the broad spectrum of political bodies
00:28:15 political bodies sympathetic to the anti-apartheid movement
00:28:17 movement and we'll see in a moment that broad spectrum but is it is it right to say that this was a um a politically democratic
00:28:31 um a politically democratic group there was no particular um political um sort of political i was in a different way
00:28:39 way um the the the this wasn't part of our policy political wasn't off the left or the right this was a kind of broad coalition of different political groups that may have been involved in anti-apartheid
00:28:50 have been involved in anti-apartheid anti-apartheid movement is that right yes that is right i mean from the very beginning the anti-apartheid movement is one of its early manifesto said it wanted to be a party of a movement of all political people who belong to all political parties and
00:29:04 belong to all political parties and none and the nun component was very important
00:29:05 important yes um
00:29:08 yes um paragraph four
00:29:19 paragraph four um says that the meeting is a meeting after the march has come to its end commenced at 3 30 and ended at 4 50 by which time some 8 000 persons were present in and around trafalgar square summary of the speeches made his include later report
00:29:31 later report in general the crowd was peaceful and no incidents occurred at this stage connected at this stage connected with the anti-apartheid demonstrations there were however small contingents of anarchists
00:29:45 contingents of anarchists obviously intent on trouble but lacking the necessary leadership and influence to be able to arouse support and then it goes on to talk about a small contingent of 60 maoists who had arrived
00:29:56 60 maoists who had arrived with the intention of protesting at canada house over the treatment of the flq
00:30:09 over the treatment of the flq um a separatist movement in quebec and over the page it sets out difficulties experienced during the demonstration with the small groups of
00:30:25 with the small groups of um demonstrators who may or may not have been politically allied to the aam um is this right to say that whilst the demonstrations were organized as peaceful marches on occasion they could attract
00:30:39 could attract those those with less peaceful intentions would that be a fair assessment of any of the mass demonstrations that were organized by the aam
00:30:48 the aam but it certainly wasn't what the am wanted because the am was very um very keen obviously to get press publicity on the issues and i remember how um you know disturbing it was that as soon as there was any trouble
00:30:59 was any trouble you know um in any conflict the press always sees on that and the issues got lost
00:31:12 thank you um later on in this report i don't think we need to turn to it but those in
00:31:15 those in addressing the demonstrators included the right reference david shepard bishop of woolwich and reg prentiss
00:31:20 prentiss mp amongst other people just to give a flavor of those people supporting the aam at that stage um can we look now please at
00:31:34 um can we look now please at another document mps-0742861 that your tab 12 sir in the heart of the bundle
00:32:14 um this appears to be a a report of the agm of the anti-apartheid movement held at the national uh liberal uh
00:32:19 uh club who would have had access to the uh aam's agm would it just be members or would it would there be public access
00:32:30 would it would there be public access it was just members and there was no and the press were excluded thank you the bottom of that first
00:32:42 thank you the bottom of that first page please sets out a list of people who were
00:32:48 who were elected to the major principal offices and the national committees of the aam and we can see uh set out there the president right reverend ambrose reids the vice president sir dingle foot qcmp
00:33:03 the vice president sir dingle foot qcmp and the right reverend trevor huddleston the right on the wall jeremy thorpe and over the page sponsors that reg prentice mp and david steele um
00:33:14 and david steele um the national committee is still on that page just a little bit further down
00:33:30 a little bit further down please thank you you can see that alexander the national committee were joan lester mp and you and peter hayne does that give a flavor of the type of movement the aam was it appears to be supported
00:33:45 the aam was it appears to be supported by mps and establishment figures from a variety of different political backgrounds yes i think so joan lester was a labour mp david stewart of course was a a liberal mp um and actually the
00:34:00 mp um and actually the department was always very was keen to attract
00:34:04 attract conservative members in the early years there was john grigg who was lord ouching who wasn't a very central member of the conservative party but it tried
00:34:20 thank you and then perhaps just to complete at that point can we turn to page turn to page 16 please of this document and scroll forward page 16
00:34:36 which gives a list of organizations affiliated to the anti-apartheid uh movement the africa bureau the association of scientific technical and managerial staff etc i'm not going to
00:34:52 not going to read them all out the fabian society the student christian movement the union of liberal students united nations association and uh organizations of that nature and the same point probably goes for
00:35:03 and the same point probably goes for over the page organizations observer stated which i'm not going to trouble you with um can we go back then please in this document to paragraph
00:35:12 paragraph 14 which is at page four please bottom of page four
00:35:29 um this reads somebody whose name has been
00:35:30 been redacted for privacy reasons who appears to have been from bournemouth was very critical of the left-wing image that the aam was now associated with
00:35:44 that the aam was now associated with and he was firm in his opinion that it would never obtain the master of support from and it reads over the paper from the british public until this image was uh changed
00:35:56 was uh changed was there a difficulty with the aam um achieving a sort of left-wing image as time went on
00:36:08 time went on i think this uh the am didn't want to have a left-wing image um i think the early 70s were the most difficult time in terms of getting a kind of widespread
00:36:22 getting a kind of widespread public support this was partly because of the issue of the anc and on struggle in south africa because the anti-public movement was known to support
00:36:31 support the anc
00:36:39 and and actually the whole business of saying of opposing trade and investments um british trade and investment in south africa
00:36:46 africa because because of that the department was seen also to be publicly criticizing government policy and company investments in south africa
00:37:01 investments in south africa in your witness statement you make a reference to being at the am being portrayed by its opponents
00:37:08 opponents as being dominated by communists as a means to discredit it is this part of is this an articulation of the same sort of concern do you think by this individual from bournemouth
00:37:22 individual from bournemouth um the antibiotic movement was some it certainly wasn't dominated by communists but there were um to their credit i think um people who were in the communist party who were very committed
00:37:34 who were very committed members of the am but um there were many other people as well in many you know labour party liberal party and as i said people of no political party um and again i think part of the problem was the cold war was very
00:37:50 was the cold war was very dominating at the time um the anc was seen to have support from the soviet union
00:37:54 union um and that kind of reflected on the anti-apartheid movement um you know incorrectly i think because the anti-apartheid movement supported the anc but they did support everyone within south africa including the south african liberal party of course
00:38:06 liberal party of course um who was act who was opposing apartheid from within the country but thank you can we move on please to paragraph
00:38:17 paragraph 20 at seven in this document which is at page
00:38:18 page seven and it's a at the bottom of the page and it's a resolution proposed by you to the agm
00:38:32 and condemning the bill the building of the kabura basa dam and in a little while we'll get on to looking at the uh documents um about the um dunbaster's
00:38:43 um about the um dunbaster's uh mobilization committee which i know you're also involved with um you in the course of this uh resolution um the
00:38:54 uh resolution um the uh somebody just find the right part um condemns the building of the war of assadam and the tech province of mozambique
00:39:06 mozambique since it will strengthen the portuguese colonists in their war against the people of mozambique assist rhodesian business businessmen to erode sanctions thereby contravening the united nations sanctions against
00:39:17 united nations sanctions against the illegal smith regime and increased south africa's influence in the region and if we go over the page please
00:39:34 um
00:39:42 sort of a third of the way down that first
00:39:42 first paragraph with a three next to it therefore instructs if you can say therefore instructs the executive
00:39:53 therefore instructs the executive a national committee a to intensify pressure upon her majesty's government to ensure british compliance with the un's security council sanctions
00:40:06 security council sanctions uh resolution and then to continue full support for the dam buses mobilizing committee which we'll come on to in a moment uh um how would such pressure uh be applied to her majesty's government how are you anticipating such pressure will be brought to bear
00:40:20 brought to bear uh by raising questions in the house of commons by petitioning um by getting people to write letters to their mps
00:40:26 their mps um
00:40:33 thank you um we can take that document down now the u.n security council resolution was in relation to rhodesia and of course at the time britain was still the um the day jury and from power in rhodesia because
00:40:48 and from power in rhodesia because there had been an illegal declaration of independence in 1965 yes the sanctions relationship and not so thank you um
00:40:59 so thank you um can we look now please at this document
00:41:08 zero ucpi000 zero eight four four two top twenty two in the whole copy bundle
00:41:27 this is a meeting which took place at a private address on a meeting of 15 people all believed to be active members the anti-apartheid movement is noted there
00:41:46 anti-apartheid movement is noted there um this meeting one of the 15 apparently is the undercover officer um
00:41:51 um i think you comment in your witness statement this was not in fact an aam sponsored activity because it involved individual direct action because the point of the decision
00:42:02 point of the decision is a city in a south africa house is that right and that wasn't something that the aam particularly engaged in that sort of activity
00:42:13 activity that's right and the background to this was that
00:42:18 was that ahmed timul um was um had been arrested in south africa and he had in fact been he'd been murdered by the south african security police as a detainee um he was a good friend of many of this
00:42:29 many of this south african exiles he had lived in london previously and actually information had been collected on him and sent back to south africa
00:42:35 africa from here um he was a good friend of some of the south african exiles who
00:42:46 some of the south african exiles who were extremely distressed and very angry about his murder as you can imagine and so it was felt that we they just had to do something that was kind of um you know more than just standing outside south africa house which is what the anti-apartheid movement normally if anyone died in detention
00:42:58 anyone died in detention would man to pick it to get publicity and stand on the pavement outside south africa house and shout slogans and people were so upset that they wanted to do something more
00:43:12 wanted to do something more and so this meeting herbie pillay was a south african exile he's a friend of mine
00:43:15 mine um so this meeting was mostly of south africans living in london with a few people like me who by that time were very involved
00:43:26 very involved um you know as friends and colleagues who were drawn into it so it was an exceptional occasion um if we can just scroll up very slightly i just want to just focus on paragraph six for a moment please
00:43:38 it was uh
00:43:44 paragraph five says it was it was dis agreed for security reasons that the persons organizing the sitting would approach reliable and sympathetic members by word of mouth
00:43:56 sympathetic members by word of mouth only for their support in this campaign i'd rather miss the boat there haven't we because we've already been infiltrated um and paragraph uh six it was generally agreed having gained access to south africa house the sitting will be quite militant
00:44:09 sitting will be quite militant and it will be necessary for the security guards to use force to eject the demonstrators in view of this members were under suspect who were under suspended sentences
00:44:22 under suspended sentences or are not in possession of a british passport were not encouraged to avail their support um the use of the word militant there um can you can you cast any light on what that might mean in this context
00:44:34 what that might mean in this context our militants of the south africa house i think that's very much a gloss of the undercover policeman who was um writing his report it's his interpretation um
00:44:45 interpretation um i can't i can i remember the sitting i don't remember the meeting but i'm quite sure that the the fear was that the security guards um would would in fact be you know
00:44:59 um would would in fact be you know as violent as they could get away with being in removing us um and there was there was no intention on our part to provoke them in fact i remember sitting um there's a kind of um
00:45:10 kind of um a a a gallery um above the entrance lobby in south africa house
00:45:20 house and they people threw water on us and then we were um carried out but all we did was sit there and all we ever intended to do was sit there go go as limp as we could and be carried out
00:45:33 and be carried out um the reference there to people who had suspended
00:45:34 suspended sentences it was it envisaged uh that there may be arrests from this activity yes
00:45:45 activity yes there may have been but again that's a reflection on the attitude of the the police towards the towards us rather than our you know intentions
00:45:57 rather than our you know intentions and we can take that document down now thank you
00:46:08 other documents relating to the aam concern of a picket of south africa house
00:46:12 house and a petition presented to the british government on to mark international day for the elimination of uh racial discrimination and a massive
00:46:20 massive amash demonstration to
00:46:29 accompany the the presentation of that petition can you recall the sort of numbers that might have might have uh participated in a mass demonstration to present that petition can you recall the presentation of that petition
00:46:39 petition i can't we do a photo of it i don't know if we submitted that if our barrister submitted that um the photo just shows the mps who included joan lester i remember
00:46:50 included joan lester i remember in some people standing behind but it was a weak day um and i don't think i wouldn't have thought it was a very large number there are a number of reports that deal with the presentation of that
00:47:07 with the presentation of that petition can we just turn briefly please to
00:47:07 to this document mps
00:47:30 um this deals with the times of the picket
00:47:31 picket uh which we're going to mark international day for the elimination of racial discrimination and the second paragraph reads as march the 21st is a normal working day
00:47:42 normal working day it's anticipated support will be diminished although it's expected that publicity
00:47:48 publicity shortly in aaa news antibiotic news will raise some 200 supporters the organizers are anxious that picketing should be
00:47:59 are anxious that picketing should be as should be peaceful so as to avoid adverse uh publicity um
00:48:10 adverse uh publicity um is that typical of the sort of messaging that came out from the aam at this time relating to pickets and demonstrations yes very much so for the reason that i already
00:48:20 already said that if there was any trouble on demonstrations the the message the kind of purpose for which the demonstration was being called just got lost and all the reporting was about the problems but thank you um
00:48:40 next report i want you to very briefly look up please ucpi zero zero zero zero zero zero eight four eight please
00:49:04 this is a report about a vigil to be held on outside wherever the i think that should be pierce commission rather than the peace commission was uh sitting peers commissioners
00:49:15 was uh sitting peers commissioners i think you've mentioned it in your statement it was a commission set up by the government to test the acceptability to the rhodesian
00:49:25 rhodesian african majority of the constitutional agreement
00:49:30 agreement in the british government with the white minority regime is that right yes um and uh it was anticipated that a vigil will be held outside what what what what a holding of a visual what would that
00:49:42 what would that what would that actually mean in practice what would you do during a visual
00:49:48 visual it would be um a group not usually a very large group of people usually held in placards um you know saying listen to the majority um democracy
00:50:00 majority um democracy one person one vote one in uh in medicine
00:50:04 medicine right if it would if it was the evening there might be um or later there were visuals outside south africa house when people going to be hanged if it was dark
00:50:15 be hanged if it was dark there might be um torches quite safe right and did vigils held by the am did they did they attract any violence or public disorder or anything of that nature
00:50:27 of that nature because they were relatively small numbers of people um you know and they were supposed to be fairly solemn affairs um thank you um and uh the next report
00:50:43 um and uh the next report please and one of the the last i want to refer to
00:50:52 refer to about the aam mps-0737656 please
00:51:08 this is a report about a christmas party um at your home address held on the 9th of september 1972 that 40 people attended
00:51:20 40 people attended 75 pence admission which included a curry meal and you could pay an extra 12 pence for uh drinks
00:51:27 uh drinks and we can see a number of people set out there who attended that christmas party did that christmas party have
00:51:39 did that have a fundraising aspect to it is that or was it simply a celebration no it was it would have been a fundraising party um those amounts seem very small now but at the time they amounted to something um i still feel i still feel disturbed about this
00:51:50 still feel disturbed about this and really surprised that it was considered that the undercover police thought it was worth coming to what would have been a very you know a small um christmas party in my flat
00:52:05 um christmas party in my flat there was absolutely nothing subversive in any way about it i was going to ask you that would it at the party would any future protests have been discussed or
00:52:16 future protests have been discussed or anything about you know purely or just before christmas it would have been a purely social occasion thank you um you can take that document down now please can can you recall any serious public disorder at
00:52:30 disorder at any demonstrations organized by the aam um no i can't um you say in your witness statement that you were not surprised that the am
00:52:43 you were not surprised that the am was a target of undercover policing well why were you not surprised by that well i think it was the spirit of the age um you know it was known that the police were in
00:52:49 were in were um involved in most kind of um afraid um attempts to change government policy
00:53:00 government policy you know in other respects and i was i am surprised now at the extent of it i never realized at the time that there were undercover policemen certainly at the meetings that you have that we have
00:53:14 the meetings that you have that we have seen the documentation about now um i'm very surprised that they attended anti-apartheid movement agms because they were although the press were ex
00:53:19 were ex were excluded there was a press statement afterwards um but what we were aware of was that our telephones were tapped because you could you could hear the clicking on the line
00:53:32 line um so so we always knew that the police were interested in what we were about to do but um but why you know i can't imagine
00:53:43 but why you know i can't imagine i want to move out on now please to ask you some
00:53:46 you some short questions about the stop the 70 tour
00:53:50 tour um in your witness statement you say that you were not involved in the central organization of that group but you took part in the campaign against the rugby orc and cricket tours as
00:54:04 cricket tours as a grassroots anti-apartheid activist is that right yes um
00:54:11 yes um i wonder if we could just have a quick look please at uh document ucpi zero zero zero zero zero three
00:54:22 zero zero zero zero zero three four three one eight which is a document i think that you supplied to the inquiry it's not an sds document it's a
00:54:27 it's a special branch document it's behind tab four sir of the hard copy bundle in the
00:54:40 the section that has got miss gurney's documents in it rather than the inquiry exhibits
00:54:52 this is a reference that this is a report about the annual general meeting of the anti-apartheid movement in december 1969 and on page two of that document if we can just turn over the page please
00:55:08 can just turn over the page please there's a passage about the stop the 70 tall in the center of that page if we can just have a quick look at that
00:55:18 that uh um dealing with the anti-apartheid movements activities in sport mr paul hodges spoke of the formation of the stopper 70 tour and said that detailed plans had already
00:55:29 and said that detailed plans had already been made to harass the springboks rugby tour
00:55:32 tour that was due to start at oxford on november
00:55:33 november the 5th um were you aware of those plans the detailed plans made to
00:55:44 made to um as it says here harass the springbok rugby tour would you have been aware of those plans um not
00:55:51 um not not at that moment not precisely what was planned um in oxford i am i i now know that there was a group called the fireworks um
00:56:04 the fireworks um fireworks committee i was day committee um in oxford and so um they were planning it on a local level with oxford students
00:56:15 students um but we didn't at the time know know what was going to happen um uh mr paul hodges goes on to say that he appreciated the anti-apartheid movement could not be
00:56:26 anti-apartheid movement could not be linked officially with the protesters because of the possibility of its leaders being charged with conspiracy to commit public disorder
00:56:38 commit public disorder in the next paragraph he says that whilst he would welcome serving a prison sentence for a sit-down strike or
00:56:46 strike or some other peaceful form of protest he could not expect them to face similar penalties for being engaged officially in the sort of the process he and his friends
00:56:59 and his friends were organizing um but he emphasized the officers of the aam were aware of their plans
00:57:02 plans and later in the debate and answered the question from the floor the chairman stated that they were aware of the planned activities to stop the rugby tour but it was important there was no
00:57:14 but it was important there was no publicity on the issue from the meeting involving the aaam what was the connection between the aam
00:57:29 what was the connection between the aam and the stop the 70 tour can you recall yes i can um the the start of 70 tours we heard from jonathan this morning um it's one of its main main activity was to organize
00:57:43 main activity was to organize non-violence direct action and try and get onto the pitch the aam uh was very very aware that if it engaged in anything like that
00:57:54 anything like that it could be done be prosecuted for conspiracy it had many other issues that it wanted to act on
00:58:01 to act on it was you know certainly not going very um eager not very anxious not to be closed down in that way and also quite separately because of its desire to have a really broad base of support
00:58:13 broad base of support it did not want to be identified with non-violent direct action because it was afraid that that would restrict its base because it was afraid it would alienate some of its
00:58:25 it would alienate some of its potential supporters and at the same time i think it is true that it um could see as jonathan again said this morning that the non-violent direct action you know would have a positive uh would have would
00:58:40 positive uh would have would um make it more difficult for the tour to be completed so you know it was not against it um happening but it just didn't it wasn't itself going to organize it
00:58:52 it wasn't itself going to organize it younger people like me in the anti-party movement whose individuals wanted to be involved in the non-violent direct action which indeed i and other younger members of the anti-apartheid
00:59:03 younger members of the anti-apartheid movement were but not under the auspices of the antibiotic movement and what the anti-apartheid movement did which jonathan referred to this morning but didn't make clear was that the anti-pilot movement organized the mass marches outside the grounds
00:59:16 grounds so she had a big part in the campaign against the tour was a slightly different area of activity
00:59:24 activity and the relationship between the two camp
00:59:27 camp the anti-apartheid movement and the stop the 70 tour was a was not a public one necessarily is that right
00:59:33 right yes i mean there were actually tensions because stopping seventy tall got a lot of the press publicity but broadly um both sides both groups recognized that they were
00:59:46 recognized that they were working towards the same end which was the cancellation of the tour so they work together in that way i'm just turning over the page please page
00:59:52 page three of this document i just want to ask you as i asked professor rosenhead this morning
01:00:02 you may have heard um at the top of that page
01:00:03 page um the writer of this report says it was obvious that the following were the core of the coming protest movement
01:00:13 movement and you are mentioned there along with a number of others including um professor rosenherd and lord peter hayne
01:00:18 hayne um do you agree with that description that you were the core of coming protest movement
01:00:25 movement oh again i think that reflects the sort of misunderstanding a lack of understanding of by the undercover police officer whoever it was was reporting on the meeting because in fact i mean i was not um
01:00:44 because in fact i mean i was not um peter hayne obviously was at the core of the movement the leader of the movement um i i was not at the core of the overall
01:00:44 overall movement in stst but within the anti-apartheid movement i would have been one of the people who was most keen that the anti-apartheid movement should be playing a very active role
01:01:02 be playing a very active role um in the stop assembly tour in in the overall campaign against the sports tours
01:01:05 tours thank you can take that document down now please
01:01:10 and in fact you you yourself individually uh played a role in some of the non-violent direct action as you describe it um leading up to the uh
01:01:27 um leading up to the uh arrival of the south african quicker team or not as it happens yes i was involved in any of the the sort of special group activities that were discussed earlier this morning but i did certainly on the first
01:01:38 certainly on the first um occasion the oxford the scheduled oxford match had to be moved to twickenham and i was certainly inside the ground then i'm trying to get trying ineffectually to get onto the pitch right thank you um you say in your
01:01:51 um you say in your witness statement you took part
01:02:02 witness statement you took part in discussions with those involved in the stop the 70 tour about how to campaign against the forthcoming springbok
01:02:04 springbok tour as part of your role on the national committee of the aam do you how frequent were those discussions did they
01:02:15 those discussions did they do they happen um at intervals or just before a demonstration what just just help us with how often you have those conversations between you
01:02:27 you have those conversations between you i can't remember i really can't remember exactly the national committee meetings were held every three months so it didn't happen then and i although i was some you know one of more active grassroots members i i was not a
01:02:39 grassroots members i i was not a staff member of the anti-apartheid movement in fact there was a staff member alan brooks who sadly now is no longer with us who would have been the kind of the official
01:02:52 the kind of the official responsible person on the a and staff um on the sports campaign thank you um and during the course of discussions with the stop the seventies tour what would the would their plans be disclosed to
01:03:10 would their plans be disclosed to the am and actually didn't want to know you know
01:03:14 thank you um
01:03:27 can i now look please at document u-c-p-i
01:03:33 u-c-p-i zero zero zero zero zero zero eight six three five please
01:03:56 oh
01:04:09 sorry excuse me i'm just gonna get my hard copy
01:04:12 hard copy little bit easier
01:04:40 sorry excuse me uh this is a meeting of the national committee of the stop the 70 tour this is not included in your bundle because you weren't present at it but i just want to ask you about one detail that appears in it
01:04:55 one detail that appears in it this is a a meeting that took place once the tour had been cancelled when the stock of 70 tour had achieved its
01:05:00 its aim and were looking for
01:05:11 aim and were looking for another focus for their activism and at the bottom of the page um the
01:05:20 scroll down please to little three what's my page thank you very much the general consensus of opinion was that although the sdst had served its purpose the organization which had been set up should not be disbanded but should remain as a latent power in
01:05:35 but should remain as a latent power in the event of any other apartheid teams endeavouring to enter great britain it's felt also that the numbers of supporters who had been mobilized so successfully over the last past months should not be left to dissipate their enthusiasm and it was essential that the stst found another cause as soon as possible
01:05:47 another cause as soon as possible discussion would take place with greek leaders to seek their ideas of possible targets
01:05:55 targets but the one which received the most and over the page uh general support so just wait for it to scroll down
01:06:06 uh was the kebor of us a dam project it would therefore seem likely that those who remain supportive stst now that the tour has been cancelled will have their thoughts directed towards
01:06:20 directed towards this scheme you were a member of the um dumbass down busters sorry mobilization committee which was campaigning against the building of the kaburabasa
01:06:40 was there an influx of stst support for campaigning groups against the kebora basa dam project that you can recall at this time no there wasn't not that i can remember
01:06:51 remember at all that was there any was there any link between the kebor between the dambusters mobilization committee and the stst that you can recall
01:06:59 recall no there wasn't no okay thank you very much
01:07:00 much uh um i'm going to move on then now please to asking you a few questions about the don buster's mobilization committee
01:07:08 committee i'm going to complete trip i'm going to be tripping over my words endlessly if i completely continue to call it that so i'm going to put the dmc um
01:07:19 put the dmc um it just makes it a little easier um you were
01:07:22 were is this right the secretary of the dmc between 1970 and 1972 in fact throughout its existence
01:07:28 existence is that right um and you became involved through your membership of the aam it was a movement a campaigning group set up by the
01:07:39 set up by the anc to provide a focus for protest about the building of the gaborabasa
01:07:57 which and you have explained the difficulties with the building of that dam in your witness team with a joint project between mozambique south africa and rhodesia mozambique of course then being under portuguese colonial
01:08:08 colonial rule and as we've seen a project which both undermined u.n sanctions against rhodesia and bolsters apartheid in south africa
01:08:19 and this organization is this right campaign to ensure that british companies did not get involved in that project is that right yes um
01:08:30 is that right yes um was it affiliated to any particular political party of the dmc no it wasn't it was a um liaison body a sort of coordinating committee of different various organizations none of which were
01:08:43 of which were political parties except maybe the young liberals may have been affiliated um the un students association the committee for freedom in mozambique angola and guinea and the uni youth um
01:08:56 and the uni youth um the nus i think the students um and i can't yeah i can't remember portugal there were portuguese students who were very active because
01:09:11 who were very active because um salazar there was a fascist salazar and cartano there's the dictator in portugal so there was quite a large body of portuguese democratic and activists for example in london
01:09:22 london and also a group called the hazelmere group that's referenced quite often in the documents that was a group campaigning to highlight the causes of poverty is that right international poverty thank you very much
01:09:33 poverty thank you very much um you're referred to an in a number of the reports perhaps unsurprisingly given your position in the group was it a sort of bi-weekly meeting or sort
01:09:44 sort by monthly meeting that you had once every two weeks i can't remember that that sounds about right it was quite intensive
01:09:54 intensive you know for the brief period for a couple of years a very long period the reports seem to show relatively small numbers at the meetings um i think in your
01:10:07 at the meetings um i think in your witness statement you say that only the representatives of the member organization attended does that does that indicate that that didn't represent the total numbers of supporters that was simply the representative bodies who sent along as it were a delegate to those meetings
01:10:21 as it were a delegate to those meetings that the person who represented say the um
01:10:21 um the nus would go back to their organization and say you know this is the plan
01:10:25 the plan can we contribute to this activity
01:10:35 [Music] did find some minutes as opposed to undercover police report in one meeting and saw that douglas edwards who is one of the i don't recall dr
01:10:51 and he was down as representing an organization called the action committee against nato yes i have no recollection of that or you know knowledge of that organization but the reason
01:11:07 organization but the reason it probably was a bona fide organization because portugal was a member of nato and so um one of the concerns of the people who were well of the damnbusters committee was that um portugal was using nato equipment in its colonial war yes
01:11:22 war yes these meetings were infiltrated by as you say douglas edwards hn and attended his name appears on the bottom of all these uh reports about the dumbbusters he managed to be there
01:11:36 to be there because he did represent him he was like thank you representative organization
01:11:46 was there concern amongst the downbusters mobilization committee that the movement or the
01:11:55 or the campaigning group would be subject to infiltration or surveillance
01:12:04 infiltration or surveillance no i mean i think we were looking back we were naive i don't think it ever occurred to me as a secretary that anyone who actually attended the meetings
01:12:06 meetings you know would be an undercover police officer
01:12:11 officer um again can you just highlight for us the sort of campaigning the sort of ways in which your campaigning will manifest what did you do as a group how did you
01:12:22 did you publicize your cause well the main thing i remember doing the whole the purpose of the committee was to was to campaign or try and do what we could to stop british companies being involved
01:12:34 companies being involved um and the rumor was that there were plans i think for the swedish the main um component of the consortium putting the dab together originally
01:12:46 dab together originally was a swedish company called asean and asea had to pull out because of the strength of public opinion in sweden and probably because of swedish government opposition and then the rumor was that general gec here would step in and take over so
01:13:01 here would step in and take over so we were very concerned to make sure that didn't happen but as i remember it the most what we mostly did we endlessly talked about doing research on companies there was another small company called united transport
01:13:13 company called united transport that was based in gloucestershire um that was
01:13:16 that was had a rumored to be i think it did have a contract um to move equipment around for the dam and so um we were looking for ways to bring pressure on these companies
01:13:28 bring pressure on these companies all i can remember is that we did this research and then we bought shares in the companies you know individual shares
01:13:35 shares and certainly i didn't attend the united transport agm but i'm sure i remember that someone did it was in libny in gloucestershire um and the that i remember very clearly and the most successful
01:13:48 and the most successful activity that we mounted was to go along to barclays banks agm because barclays dco was had a minor actually role
01:13:59 was had a minor actually role in supplying fine and guaranteeing finance
01:14:03 finance to some other company for the dam and we had a very successful um attendance successful in the 10th sense that we got a lot of press coverage
01:14:13 coverage including in the financial times we went along to barclays banks agm in 1971 and we asked questions um and the chair um the undercover police haven't done their work then because they they clearly haven't warned
01:14:28 clearly haven't warned that place that we were coming um we asked
01:14:30 asked lots of questions and the chair you know couldn't cope with the meeting it was perfectly good humor and certainly not violent but um we did you know raise a lot of questions and
01:14:43 questions and in fact there are a number of reports that deal with deal with the planning of the buying of the shares and matters of that nature that we'll come to
01:14:51 to very briefly um can i then take you to just a few of these
01:15:02 then take you to just a few of these reports just to highlight some of the activities that you are undertaking um first one please ucpi zero zero zero zero zero zero eight one one one
01:15:14 zero zero zero eight one one one and that's behind tab one so if you're a hardcopy bundle
01:15:34 uh um this appears to be in fact the uh discussion of some minutes of a meeting
01:15:34 meeting that have been received uh minutes of a meeting of the dmc
01:15:47 when a demonstration is planned for a suggestion for a major event in the second paragraph at easter was not
01:15:57 not accepted and it was going to be moved to to whitson there's a more acceptable date
01:16:03 date but a major event what what sort of form would a major event take in the um
01:16:09 in the um in in this for this sort of group what would a major event look like i can't i really can't remember what that
01:16:16 what that referred to because we didn't the dan vessel committee never organized large-scale demonstrations in the sense of you know trying to convene a lot of people in one place
01:16:28 a lot of people in one place what we did do is kind of educational work and the next paragraph refers to a teaching which i think
01:16:35 think would be much more the kinds of major events we
01:16:41 events we would have been looking at there was a lot of student support and certainly student support for the barclays campaign
01:16:43 campaign and students were you know teaching seemed appropriate for um that in fact was a teaching organization
01:16:54 in fact was a teaching organization for students so i don't know what that was
01:16:58 was okay thank you and reference there also with the
01:17:00 with the uh teaching organized by the hazemir group is that a number of people are agreed to buy the barclays shares yeah that they could attend the bank's agm and that's the
01:17:11 agm and that's the the protest that you were just speaking of where you all asked stood up and asked the question during the course of the agm
01:17:19 the agm no april of the next year that year we didn't manage to distribute the shares you know the legal hurdles you had to um jump over to um actually transfer the shares
01:17:35 um thank you and a number of the reports uh refer to the um coordinated sit-ins of branches of barclays and other british firms
01:17:49 firms involved in the kabura basa dam building is
01:17:52 is is that the sort of activity that the dmc
01:17:58 dmc would engage in i think it was the sort of activity we discussed but i don't recall i don't remember that ever happening i think we were a group of um you know aspiring and um energetic young people who had i sometimes plan
01:18:10 sometimes plan things that we couldn't carry out it was we had quite a small base well perhaps this report will illustrate that can you take that one down please and replace it with uh
01:18:25 one ucpi0008114 please
01:18:33 at the time behind top thirteen in the hard copy bundle sir
01:18:39 um a meeting which took place on the 12th of november 1970 um
01:18:44 1970 um 13 people present um
01:18:54 a discussion of the targets of a proposed sitting to take place on the 26th of november barclays barclays bank ico milbank
01:19:09 gkn house on kingsway and united transport and barclay in barclays
01:19:10 barclays markley square um and the report goes on to say if you just scroll down slightly please
01:19:27 scroll down slightly please uh buildings b and c that is ici and united transport at berkeley square house
01:19:31 house um no sorry gkm so ici and gkn were not allotted to any particular protest group and this was left in obeyance it was felt that lunch time was the most opportune time since this ensured the best support
01:19:47 since this ensured the best support however it was acknowledged that support would be small and not unmet and not entirely enthusiastic um does that accord with your memory of some of the activities of the dmc and in the approach to sit-ins in general
01:20:01 general i can't i don't i can't remember that but
01:20:04 but on the other hand i also can't remember any of those sitting sit-ins taking place i think if i had been involved if i personally had been involved in anything i would have i think if they had taken place
01:20:16 had taken place i probably would have remembered something as
01:20:19 okay thank you um
01:20:34 uh one uh final report please about the dmc before we move on to talk about the star and garter incident ucpi zero zero zero zero zero zero eight one one six please
01:20:47 six please uh this uh a meeting of the uh dmc at a public house this time rather than at the
01:20:58 time rather than at the am premises at charlotte street attended by
01:21:04 by nine people a meeting apparently called to discuss an article that appeared in the
01:21:08 the daily telegraph which had concerned the group
01:21:11 group the article seemed to have frightened a few members of the committee and they decided that in the future they should check the wording of their mailing more thoroughly crystal ball gurney said she'd helped to draft the leaflet in question with several other members of the committee
01:21:22 several other members of the committee he's apparently found its way into the hands of the york police presumably through an mp having been given a copy and the decision was made to issue a press release in the morning star
01:21:33 release in the morning star the damn buses mobilizing committee states that it knows nothing of mr ian colvin's arsenal and daily telegraph and none of what was said in that article has ever been approved by the committee for circulation in their official
01:21:49 their official mailing list and then somebody whose name has been redacted for privacy purposes
01:21:50 purposes said that whilst they didn't wish to denounce the ideas put forward in the leaflet
01:21:56 leaflet they obviously couldn't endorse them because of the legal
01:22:10 because of the legal dangers um apparently a leaflet that you um assisted in producing can you recall what it was that worried the other members of the committee that was contained in that leaflet i'm afraid i can't um it's intriguing i imagine it was something that you know was a bit too um stepped over the mark that
01:22:23 the mark that people drew back from but i really can't remember
01:22:24 remember and the reference to to legal dangers there does that does that didn't does that
01:22:32 that um encourage you in that assumption yes thank you um right i'm now going to take that down please now i'm now going to move on to asking you some
01:22:43 some questions about the star and garter i'm not going to be very long but sir i noticed that we i noticed the time and it might be the um
01:22:56 um short handwriting would like a brief break since we've come to a total change of topic i'm not going to take very long with with miss gurney on this topic i think they had quite a long warning this morning and um
01:23:08 this morning and um fairness to them we was giving them a break ms gurney um i have to break for the shorthand writers uh to have a brief rest um can you be back in court for an hour yes thank you
01:23:25 good afternoon everyone we will now take a break
01:23:26 a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please the time is now 3 25 pm so we shall reconvene at 3 40 pm thank you
01:37:37 good afternoon everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you mrs
01:37:48 thank you sir um i'm not sure it's miss gurney can you hear me
01:37:54 yeah can you hear me yes i can yes thank you very much uh um i'm going to ask you just a few questions please about uh your activity and the arrest
01:38:05 uh your activity and the arrest outside the star and garter hotel and followed by the court proceedings uh um we note your concern about the paucity of the documents in relation to that matter i think you were particularly
01:38:22 think you were particularly concerned that your documents contained no inclusion of any material that indicated the degree to which that prosecutors and the court were made aware of the presence of an undercover officer
01:38:30 officer during the course of those proceedings
01:38:37 you have been sent all the material that we are in possession of okay i just wanted to to make that clear um you were involved in
01:38:50 um you were involved in a protest at outside the star and garter hotel
01:38:57 hotel who which aim was to disrupt the departure of the british lions team coach is that right yes um the plan appears to have taken shape at the
01:39:09 at the house of ernest rodker is it right to say that you have got really no recollection
01:39:22 recollection of the planning of this event no i don't um do you have any recollection of the part that you played during that demonstration no i don't i just have a recollection of being in court for many years i knew i had been gone to court and i knew i
01:39:33 court and i knew i remembered ben bernburg being involved and i knew i'd been fine but i couldn't actually for for very many years i had no recollection and i knew it was something to do with the sports campaign
01:39:45 something to do with the sports campaign um and then subsequently in 2013 with my historians hat on i did an all history interview with ernest rodker um who had press cuttings and you know i was listed in those um
01:39:57 was listed in those um charge and so then i realized what it was all about but i still couldn't remember
01:39:59 remember so does it follow that it will be really of no value whatsoever for me to ask you any questions really about your activities during the course of that demonstration
01:40:13 demonstration i'm afraid not except i could um explain one little point that came up this morning
01:40:16 morning about paying the fines um there's a document that says that um peace news yes thank you i'm going to ask you about that that would be helpful um do you want to do that now then we'll
01:40:27 um do you want to do that now then we'll then we'll get that out of the way and i can just ask my few remaining very small number of questions
01:40:38 number of questions i'm sure the point there was at the time i was the editor of anti-apartheid news and so what was in question what the what i was being asked to do was to put something there would be something in peace news which would appeal to their readers to contribute to a fund and i was being asked to put a similar
01:40:49 and i was being asked to put a similar notice in anti-part eight news to appeal to
01:40:52 to the readers of aa news and can you recall whether that happened no i can't okay check in and copy eventually i haven't done that thank you that you
01:41:06 i haven't done that thank you that you um attended court on the 14th of may it appears you pleaded not guilty and thereafter you attended court on the 14th of june
01:41:18 court on the 14th of june it seems that you went you you had um you can you recall whether you had a trial no i can't no can you say you can't recall whether you gave evidence or not no that i was fined um and you're there after convicted of
01:41:35 you're there after convicted of obstructing the highway and obstructing the police a fine of two pounds at a conditional discharge for 12 months um just this then did you have any knowledge at the time that in your midst was a undercover police officer who both participated in
01:41:48 police officer who both participated in the demonstration and thereafter in the court proceedings was that every fact ever disclosed to you no it wasn't i am very surprised
01:42:00 um you say in your witness statement that you were not surprised that the police tried to infiltrate this small group involved in protests of this nature even
01:42:12 involved in protests of this nature even though you thought it was wrong for them to do so
01:42:18 to do so why were you not surprised at the police police would have had some interest in that sort of group i suppose because we we did assume you know back in the day that police were pretty hostile to what we were trying to do
01:42:32 were trying to do but although i say that in my statement i am surprised they succeeded in infiltration
01:42:39 thank you i've got no further questions for you
01:42:42 for you so those are my questions for miss gurney thank you miss kenny i wonder if i could possibly um press you a little press your memory a little on
01:42:57 a little press your memory a little on what took place in the magistrates court um i know that your recollection of it is imperfect but if i ask you a number of specific questions
01:43:04 questions you may or may not be able to help me can i try
01:43:11 um the record shows that you uh that after a trial on the 14th of june 1972
01:43:22 trial on the 14th of june 1972 you and a number of others were convicted
01:43:23 convicted and fined and conditionally discharged
01:43:35 i wonder if some the technicians could arrange so that i can see ms gurney please i hope she can see me i can only see a very small uh shot of her
01:43:43 her and i would like if i i may to be able to see her fully
01:43:48 i'll carry on well while they're trying to arrange that i can see you good i can now see you excellent spend it
01:43:57 it um do you remember whether you were represented by benedict burnburg or by someone from his firm well i'm sure
01:44:05 sure by i can't remember whether it was someone from his firm or by or by him but you were legally represented yes i'm sure that's what for some reason i do remember that we went to ben bernd
01:44:18 went to ben bernd yes do you know whether you paid for the legal representation i very much i i'm not sure but i very much doubt it do you mean i don't i don't remember any i think i would remember
01:44:30 i think i would remember i had no money at the time i think if i had been
01:44:36 had been you know required to pay something i certainly remember i was fined um i probably would remember
01:44:51 um to this question you may not be able to give an answer from your recollection do you remember whether or not you or any of you applied for legal aid or whether this was done by benedict bloomberg on what we now call a pro bono basis
01:44:58 basis i i don't know i mean if i'd been required to fill in extensive forms i probably would remember but if someone did it for all of us then i wouldn't
01:45:11 i wouldn't i don't know but i i think even in those days if you had applied for legal aid you would have had to have filled in a form yourself personally i'm not sure okay um you don't remember yourself
01:45:24 okay um you don't remember yourself giving evidence am i right about that no and again i think if i had to give it if i had given evidence because i remember being in court you
01:45:35 because i remember being in court you know i probably would have remembered it wouldn't
01:45:35 wouldn't be taxing and for an effort yeah but as i understand it the um defense case was that the obstruction such as it was took place
01:45:46 place in the car park and therefore could not amount to the offence of obstructing the highway
01:45:54 a memory with you that's i have no memory of that i'm afraid but there was there was some line of defense being advanced you weren't simply sitting there passively seeing what the police said
01:46:05 what the police said and then um saying nothing in the magistrate deciding i don't know nope right um do you remember whether anybody on your side gave
01:46:14 side gave evidence no i don't you mean you you simply don't remember i mean the fact that i can i remember being in court and remember so little about it i didn't suggest that it was
01:46:28 about it i didn't suggest that it was over very quickly but that's as far as i will
01:46:32 will be able to go right and finally on this topic
01:46:33 topic um i i've been told by both uh ernest roddick's son and by professor rosenhead
01:46:39 rosenhead that they would like this question of whether there has been a miscarriage of justice to be referred to the panel quickly rather than uh at the end of the inquiry
01:46:50 inquiry am i right in assuming that's your wish as well yes yes i do i do have a few a couple of other points i would like to make yes i mean the first one is that i do
01:47:01 yes i mean the first one is that i do feel that it was wholly inappropriate for the undercover police and especially police officers um to be spying especially on them on meetings of the anti-apartheid movement um you know which did act which was
01:47:15 um you know which did act which was it its only rationale was to call for democracy in south africa and it was not in any way a subversive organisation so i think it was a
01:47:28 i think it was a misuse of time and public funding and inappropriate and the other point is that i do regret that there is no there has been no investigation into the activities of the network
01:47:39 into the activities of the network of um of undercover operations that was coming out of the south african embassy because
01:47:47 because they were so much more serious than anything
01:47:50 anything that we or any of the organizations that i was involved in did um for example there were burglaries of the anti-apartheid office um nobody did very much about them and then much more seriously
01:48:04 then much more seriously in 1982 there was a very serious bomb attack
01:48:08 attack on the anc office in central london in penton street where the anti-terrorist squad of course sprang into action after the event the back of the building was completely demolished but the police apparently had no
01:48:21 but the police apparently had no knowledge that that was going to happen because they hadn't been investigating that the the network and then later there was a serious arson attack on in 1985 on the antibiotic movement office and it seems to me that
01:48:34 movement office and it seems to me that it would have been much more appropriate for undercover police officers to be investigating what the south africans and their
01:48:41 and their sort of semi-criminal criminal network here were up to um in investigating the antibiotic movement and then the last
01:48:52 movement and then the last point is one that i think has already been made that's i do hope that this inquiry one of the results of this inquiry
01:48:56 inquiry will be that history does not repeat itself and that people who are justifiably protesting now about various aspects of government policy i mean maybe
01:49:06 maybe who think they're doing it justifiably and behaving kind of acting within the law and aren't subject to the same obstructions and undercover surveillance that we were
01:49:17 that we were um and i'm afraid that current legislation um the courts the police crime
01:49:28 um the courts the police crime uh and courts bill that's going through and the covert human intelligence bill that's going through will make that more likely so i do hope that this inquiry has the positive outcome
01:49:37 outcome as it makes things more equitable and just in the future thank you your last point is somewhere down the road i'm afraid and by the time i get to consider
01:49:48 by the time i get to consider recommendations i hope to be assisted by a panel
01:49:49 a panel um as far as your first point goes uh why were groups like the anti-apartheid movement
01:49:56 movement infiltrated and happily the female undercover officer joel marsdall who produced the reports that we have
01:50:08 produced the reports that we have died and so we're not able to ask her as far as why the undercover police did not infiltrate south african units um all i can say is
01:50:24 units um all i can say is i know they didn't and i would have been surprised if they had thought that was within their remit but um
01:50:31 there is absolutely no reason to believe that any south african entity who was infiltrated by an undercover officer
01:50:42 undercover officer would would you mind waiting for 15 minutes because questions may be asked which will be put to you at the end of that time
01:50:52 time although on past form i don't expect they will
01:50:53 they will that's okay thank you
01:51:01 good afternoon everyone we will now take a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms the time is now 3 55 pm so we shall resume at 4 10 p.m thank you
02:07:34 good afternoon everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings
02:07:42 thank you mr ryder do you have any questions in re-examination there being none no questions from any any other person no thank you sir thank you very much miss kenny in that case your evidence
02:07:54 miss kenny in that case your evidence concludes thank you for your assistance uh
02:07:55 uh as always it is fascinating to hear those who participated in the events into which i am inquiring personally and firsthand thank you thank you
02:08:15 thank you everyone the hearings have now finished for the day we shall resume at 10 am tomorrow
02:08:47 you