Lord Peter Hain, former Cabinet Minister and Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, gives extensive testimony about his role in the Stop The Seventy Tour and Stop The Seventy-Two campaigns against apartheid-era South African sporting tours. As a young activist, he was infiltrated by undercover officers while organizing non-violent direct action protests. His testimony powerfully contrasts his legitimate anti-apartheid activism with the misuse of police resources to spy on peaceful campaigners.
00:20:21 good morning everyone and welcome to day eight of hearings in tranche one phase two at the undercover policing inquiry
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00:24:56 lord hane i'm afraid you have rather a long day ahead of you do you wish to swear or to affirm i'd like to affirm sir john certainly then may the relevant words be read to you for you to repeat please
00:25:07 you for you to repeat please thank you thank you chairman good morning lord hane can you see and hear me i can i understand that you would like to affirm that's right
00:25:22 affirm that's right thank you please repeat after me i do solemnly
00:25:25 solemnly sincerely and truly i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give that the evidence i shall give
00:25:41 evidence i shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing
00:25:44 nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you lord hang chairman mr barr thank you sir lord hane
00:25:55 thank you sir lord hane could you first of all confirm your full name please peter gerald hayne or the right honourable lord hane of nath thank you you've provided the inquiry
00:26:08 thank you you've provided the inquiry with a comprehensive witness statement dated the 3rd of march 2020 are the contents of that witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief they are
00:26:20 and belief they are can we start please with an overview in so far as it is relevant to our terms of reference
00:26:31 of reference of your career as an activist and in politics is it right that you were active within the anti-apartheid movement between 1967 and 1994 including serving
00:26:49 and 1994 including serving on that movement's national committee yes it is turning to the young liberals is it right that you were active with the young liberals from 1968
00:27:03 young liberals from 1968 you were the publicity vice chair between 1969 and 1970 you were the national chair between 1971 and 1973 you were a
00:27:26 and 1973 you were a national executive member between 1973 and 1975 and the national president between 1975 and 1977.
00:27:34 and 1977. yes with one correction i think i was publicity vice chair between 1970 and 1971. otherwise all those dates and positions are correct
00:27:52 thank you so far as the stop the 70 tour is concerned you were the national chair of that organization between september
00:27:54 september 1969 and may of 1970. yes was that for the entire history of the organization pretty well
00:28:08 of the organization pretty well yes it was from the time it was launched publicly in september 1969 until we disbanded it in late may 1970. you were then active in the action
00:28:24 you were then active in the action committee against racialism between 1970 and 1973 including as chair yes
00:28:35 as chair yes you were a founder member and the national press officer between 1977 and 1981 for the anti-nazi league and you were the parliamentary officer for that organization
00:28:46 for that organization from 1991 onwards yes you joined the labour party in september of 1977 and
00:29:00 of 1977 and you were a member of parliament between 1991
00:29:02 1991 and 2015 a government minister for five years and a cabinet minister for seven years yes
00:29:16 for seven years yes one of your cabinet portfolios was the secretary
00:29:17 secretary of state for northern ireland yes and that included signing off work of the
00:29:24 the utmost sensitivity indeed signing warrants for surveillance and interception
00:29:35 interception and also seeing intelligence reports from gchq
00:29:39 from gchq and the security service of the utmost sensitivity indeed and when i was a minister of state in the foreign office i saw similarly uh sensitive intelligence reports from both gchq and mi6
00:29:52 from both gchq and mi6 between 1999 and 2003. and amongst the information crossing
00:30:03 and amongst the information crossing your desk would have been at least some about the activities of undercover police officers yes it would you've been a privy counselor since 2001
00:30:14 you've been a privy counselor since 2001 and a member of the house of lords since 2015.
00:30:15 2015. yes
00:30:22 can i move now to some scene setting because we have to move ourselves from 2021 to 1969.
00:30:32 to 1969. would it be right to say that the anti-apartheid movement in the late 1960s and the 1970s could on the one hand command large numbers of
00:30:44 large numbers of active protesters but on the other hand was a long way from being as mainstream
00:30:56 was a long way from being as mainstream as it is today yes mr barr that's a very important point because at that time although today we regard uh apartheid as being part of history at that time and for many decades
00:31:10 at that time and for many decades prior to nelson mandela's release in 1990
00:31:12 1990 and the eventual negotiation to the air to ending apartheid with his presidency in 1994
00:31:19 in 1994 for 50 years or so it was a bitter long hard struggle and we were in a minority and people take it for granted that everybody was
00:31:31 everybody was against apartheid because it was such a detestable institutionalized system of racism like the world has never seen people take it for granted that we were all
00:31:41 all as it were on the side of the anti-apartheid movement but that was not the case
00:31:49 the case you quite correctly depicted it as being a movement that was in a minority or by albeit with a wide reservoir of public sympathy
00:32:02 public sympathy and is it right that uh an important part of the explanation for that was the cold war and a fear that was held by western governments
00:32:15 governments of south africa coming under communist influence
00:32:20 influence well the cold war prison through which the anti-apartheid struggle was seen was a very big part of the context in which we worked but it was the south african apartheid state
00:32:32 state that presented itself as a bull walk against communism in its own language and that was very convenient for us because in fact it was responsible for one of the most vicious
00:32:45 one of the most vicious tyrannies that the world has ever seen where a minority less than 10 percent of the population oppressed
00:32:53 oppressed the great majority on grounds of race and it suited its purposes that washington and london and berlin and paris
00:33:03 paris and rome saw it as part of a contest between the soviet union and the democratic west saw it as being on the side of the democratic west when in fact it wasn't a democratic regime the very opposite
00:33:19 democratic regime the very opposite and it was uh it it um went against all the principles of democracy including not having a democracy because the majority were not allowed to participate or vote and wouldn't mind denied the most elementary human rights so
00:33:35 most elementary human rights so when when uh you asked the question about the way the where the anti-apartheid movement saw itself and was seen it was through a distorted prism we were on the side of justice inequality and human rights
00:33:53 inequality and human rights and the apartheid regime was on the wrong side of all of those issues and yet washington and london in particular but paris and berlin and rome and other centers of a so-called western democracy were actually allied
00:34:04 actually allied to the south african apartheid regime supplying with arms continuing to trade with it opposing sanctions
00:34:09 sanctions and in particular campaigns that i was involved in opposing sporting boycotts so um it was very convenient
00:34:24 so um it was very convenient for the apartheid regime that that prism was the way that we were seen but very distorted
00:34:27 distorted as well of the true character of the anti-apartheid struggle uh or for example nelson mandela's true beliefs
00:34:38 mandela's true beliefs and moving now to you personally you grew up in south africa in the apartheid regime as a child you came to this country in the 1960s
00:34:51 the 1960s with your family and at the point at which we
00:34:53 which we begin our exploration in 1969 you were living with your family in public
00:35:04 public that's correct my parents were very unusually
00:35:05 unusually uh as young white south african-born uh conventional parents and conventional family and
00:35:16 family and in many other respects but very unusually took a stand against uh the apartheid system and suffered continual harassment jailing issued with banning orders and eventually
00:35:29 eventually my father as an architect was forced was prevented from working the government effectively issued an edict that nobody could employ him so we were forced to come into exile and were accepted
00:35:42 come into exile and were accepted as british subjects though my father attained his own citizenship through his father who was from glasgow and we settled in london in 1966 not out of choice but because of
00:35:57 not out of choice but because of the attacks that we suffered as a family from the apartheid regime and i know this is a point which you have made very forcefully in your witness statement but i think it bears drawing out here um
00:36:10 it bears drawing out here um and i will ask you it as an open question
00:36:11 question were you or either of your parents communists no my parents were both members of the south african liberal party
00:36:24 party whose president was alan payton of cry the beloved country and other renowned books they joined in 1954 they were never members of the south african communist party nor was i even though
00:36:36 nor was i even though undercover officers and the evidence that i've seen to which you're eluded specifically described them as communists
00:36:47 communists in in the case of one report held by the metropolitan police and appeared to give detail that could only have come
00:36:59 only have come from south african sources and of course the south african security service abandoned my parents both of them my mother in 1963 my father in 1964
00:37:09 in 1964 under the suppression of communism acts even though they were members of the liberal party so um yes that was another um distortion of the through the prism of the cold war
00:37:21 of the cold war that everybody almost who supported the anti-apartheid case uh was seen and designated by the apartheid state and its allies
00:37:33 apartheid state and its allies in london and washington in the main as communist sympathizers or actual communists that was a straight lie uh and it even said about says about me i may quote from it actually it even says that um that that i am
00:37:45 that that i am although not a member of the cp who started the south african communist party uh because of my age was clearly associated with the south african communist party
00:37:56 communist party and in spite of his youth was suspected to have taken part in communist party underground activities well those are all lies but very typical of the kind of reports that undercover officers were making at the time
00:38:09 the time about the anti-apartheid movement and its members including me one final preliminary question before we move to your activism in this country
00:38:23 country in 1969 how old were you i was 19.
00:38:29 i'm going to start with on the topic of activism with the wilf isaacs 11 and the will fight wilf isaac was a businessman who sponsored a cricket tour
00:38:43 cricket tour to this country is that right he was and i think also an offer officer in the south african army
00:38:52 we traveled first to basildon on the 5th of july 1969 and it's right isn't it that you were one of
00:39:03 one of eight young liberals who staged a pitch invasion at basildon yes i was and i organized it and i'm proud to recall it and we stayed as a pitch invasion we ran on the pitch
00:39:19 on the pitch during play sat down unfilled banners and were carried off perfectly non-violently as was always my intention and was proved by that protest in particular it was as far as i know the first such
00:39:32 it was as far as i know the first such anti-apartheid protest of a non-violent direct
00:39:36 direct action character against a uh cricket team
00:39:41 team and presaged the uh subsequent stop the 720 campaign
00:39:49 just while we introduce non-violent direct action i think it's important we're clear about terms and definitions that you make it abundantly clear in your witness statement
00:40:01 statement that non-violent meant exactly what it said
00:40:04 said so you were not setting out it was your deliberate policy not to occasion violence to any person is that right that is absolutely correct it was shown by that basildon incident uh we didn't attempt to
00:40:20 incident uh we didn't attempt to interfere with any individual we ran on and stopped the play and we were carried off and uh you'll probably come to this a similar uh protest took place at a tennis court in bristol
00:40:31 tennis court in bristol as well of the same character i i see non-violent direct action of the kind that i
00:40:40 that i advocated and participated in and led through the stop the 720 campaign as having a long lineage going back to the suffragettes to early trade unionists to the charters protesting for the vote
00:40:55 protesting for the vote to gandhi mahatma gandhi in india protesting against british colonial rule and for indian independence it's in a long line of environment of
00:41:15 it's in a long line of environment of of non-violent direct action that's also carried out by extinction rebellion and other environmental process today and whilst it is unequivocally non-violent it's also right to say that non-violent direct action does not mean it is lawful well
00:41:28 it is lawful well nothing we did at the time that i did at the time ever invited the prosecution i was not prosecuted during these uh
00:41:40 i was not prosecuted during these uh protests either the baseled warden one or the um the bristol one where i ran on a tennis court or during the stopper 720 campaign i was subsequently prosecuted for criminal conspiracy
00:41:52 criminal conspiracy as a result of a private prosecution but most of the things we did were not unlawful
00:42:01 unlawful running on a cricket pitch was not a criminal act it may have been a civil trespass but that was not a criminal act in itself and
00:42:12 act in itself and accepting what you've just said uh that doesn't quite answer my question though i mean it did the philosophy of non-violent direct
00:42:26 the philosophy of non-violent direct action did leave room for protesters who felt very strongly about the issue to use tactics which would involve them committing minor criminal offences to advance their cause
00:42:41 cause that's correct isn't it if it's part of your line of argument that you're seeking to suggest that the non-violent direct action as it were
00:42:49 were has a uh if i could put it a subversive periphery
00:42:56 periphery i reject that nonviolent direct action is also in the context of civil disobedience and that is to say like mahatma gandhi did under british rule you accept the consequences if there is a
00:43:08 there is a transgression of the law but you're not seeking to break the law you're simply seeking to take action that you believe as i believed and i'm still proud that i did a non-violent direct action to change the
00:43:20 non-violent direct action to change the course of history and we did change the course of history that stopped the 72 campaign was um fundamental as nelson mandela subsequently told me having seen it
00:43:32 having seen it or heard about it from robben island where he was at the time it was fundamental in changing uh the nature of the anti-apartheid movement in galvanizing it
00:43:43 movement in galvanizing it and then ultimately bringing about the downfall of apartheid i can assure you lord hayne i'm not in any way trying to detract from the achievements of the stop the 70 tour or other nvda
00:43:58 or other nvda actions what i'm seeking to do is to draw the distinction between the way that a group that is using
00:44:06 using non-violent direct action achieves its aims
00:44:11 aims and the way that a group which uses entirely
00:44:12 entirely conventional protesting techniques perhaps such as the anti-apartheid movement that's the distinction i'm getting at thank you thank you for that
00:44:25 thank you thank you for that clarification mr barr and i'm happy to accept it the anti-apartheid movement engaged in conventional uh mainstream protest to agree with your point
00:44:38 protest to agree with your point it organized rallies in trafalgar square it
00:44:41 it organized peaceful demonstrations including outside twickenham when stopped the 72 demonstrators were inside trying to invade the pitch it organized petitions it organized
00:44:52 it organized petitions it organized non-violent pickets outside sporting grounds
00:44:53 grounds and it made representations to government and it sought to have issues raised in parliament all mainstream pressure group activity
00:45:08 all mainstream pressure group activity yes whereas the stop the 72 campaign in addition to doing some of those things was also distinctive and unique up to that point in the anti-apartheid struggle in britain at least
00:45:18 least of undertaking um non-violent direct action
00:45:22 action uh of the kind i've described and we will see
00:45:25 will see we'll see more of that as we go through uh the chronology i i've got a copy of your book don't play with apartheid uh in front of me
00:45:35 me uh you wrote that book in it was first published in 1971 is that right that's correct and uh presumably when you wrote it the events were fresh in
00:45:46 you wrote it the events were fresh in your memory and we can rely upon them i hope so
00:45:52 hope so um so far as the at the basildon match is concerned um what one of the things you write is you say the importance
00:46:06 you say the importance of the occasion was not however matched by any great competence on our part but the authorities were taking it seriously
00:46:10 seriously and the whole area was teeming with police constables squad cars motorbikes and a mobile radio headquarters it seemed that they were expecting demonstrators to emerge
00:46:23 demonstrators to emerge phoenix-like from the surrounding countryside what they got was you and seven of your young liberal colleagues exactly and is that sort of reaction what you were
00:46:36 that sort of reaction what you were seeking i gather from the book that you thought that was something of a success well it was completely disproportionate uh and a complete waste of police resources in my view
00:46:49 resources in my view they should have been spent uh catching criminals
00:46:51 criminals and uh and other other mainstream policing activity and that frankly
00:47:02 policing activity and that frankly is an example of an argument that you'll probably hear from me later on in my evidence if there's scope for that but undoubtedly the non-violent direct action that i advocated and participated in did excite
00:47:14 did excite [Music]
00:47:18 [Music] a police interest to push but we you know
00:47:20 know if you look at actually what happened what we intended mr barr and what um and then the the police uh numbers they are completely
00:47:32 completely disproportionate and a lot and and all of the undercover officer that we were involved in the anti-apartheid movement including in the stopper 72
00:47:44 movement including in the stopper 72 was completely disproportionate those resources should have been deployed catching terrorists catching drug traffickers catching people traffickers and organized serious crime serious criminals not uh devoted to
00:47:59 serious criminals not uh devoted to uh keeping an eye on and harassing in in various ways legitimate anti-apartheid process let's let's move from basildon to oxford which is i think the next match in the wilf isaac's tour i'm reading from your book
00:48:13 from your book in their second match at oxford the wilf isaac's 11 faced its most disruptive protest in a well-drilled operation over 70 protesters
00:48:24 operation over 70 protesters members of oxford anti-apartheid students
00:48:25 students trade unionists and others ran onto the pitch at the sound of a whistle and stopped the match for over 40 minutes causing play to be abandoned for the day
00:48:39 the day three days before this the pitch had been dug up in an attempt to force the abandonment of the match but groundsmen were able to repair it in time
00:48:51 time is that a reasonably typical example of the sort of tactics that were used digging up the pitch was not something i ever advocated in fact i opposed it i didn't agree with it but
00:49:05 didn't agree with it but that did happen was it typical didn't happen at basildon and it didn't happen as i recall it any other wolf isaac's matches unless you can correct me from my book in 1971
00:49:18 in 1971 for instance when i led a group of young liberals including my sisters and brother to invade a pitch in roehampson the pitch wasn't dug up but there was an effective process
00:49:34 effective process uh i just before we move on to the stop the 70 tour and for the sake of completeness and so that we get tennis as well as rugby and cricket i think you had um staged a sit-in protest with others on the tennis quarter to davis cup match
00:49:48 on the tennis quarter to davis cup match prior to the stop the 70 campaign hadn't you
00:49:52 you yes i had again a small group of us [Music]
00:49:57 [Music] bought tickets sat in the stands and ran on to
00:49:58 on to this match between an all-white tennis team representing south africa remember of course south african tennis players rugby players cricket players any
00:50:12 players cricket players any olympics athletes any representative of south africa was could only be white that was the nature of apartheid at the time and yes we did uh
00:50:24 uh interrupt the match uh and we're carried out uh and i was detained in a police cell
00:50:24 cell for a bit and then um are told to go home and i think to be clear i think i think it's emerged from your evidence but i'd just like to confirm it
00:50:42 but i'd just like to confirm it although non-direct non-violent direct action was not a new tactic you can trace it all the way back to the suffragettes at least it was novel in the context of campaigns in relation to sporting events and in relation
00:50:57 events and in relation to the anti-apartheid movement generally yes and that part of its effectiveness was its novelty and the change of tactics
00:51:09 the change of tactics that you brought to this field of campaigning yes up until then there have been pickets held banners held up rallies staged
00:51:24 staged letters written petitions organized and speeches in parliament against a south african
00:51:26 african white south african sports tours to britain including led by for example the former england cricket captain david shepard subsequently the bishop of woolwich and of liverpool uh who you almost uniquely in the
00:51:38 uh who you almost uniquely in the cricketing world apart from the cricket commentator john oliver took a stand but up until that point uh the protests had all been outside
00:51:50 all been outside the stadia as it were rather than running on the pitch and we've made no progress apart eight in sport had been intensified auntie apparently sports people who wish to play non-racial sport
00:52:05 to play non-racial sport inside south africa had been arrested and harassed in other words the situation was getting worse while um the protests were conventional and some sports officials who wanted to play non-racial sport who advocated non-racial sport
00:52:16 non-racial sport such as members of the south african non-racial olympic committee individuals like dennis brutus and chris de broglie were prevented where harris
00:52:27 where harris dennis brutus was arrested he was shot by the police he was imprisoned on roman island all the time more mainstream conventional pressure activity
00:52:36 activity uh by anti-apartheid campaigners was continuing the situation was getting worse
00:52:44 worse and i advocated non-violent direct action to change that to make a fundamental rupture in the way that sports relations which of a racist apartheid kind were
00:52:59 of a racist apartheid kind were were in were continuing between britain and south africa and other countries such as new zealand australia uh in the maine to change that and we did succeed in changing that because as a result of the stop the 72
00:53:11 a result of the stop the 72 campaign as we'll no doubt come to south african cricketers and rugby players never toured again until after nelson mandela had come out of prison
00:53:19 of prison until after negotiations had begun for a transition from a tyrannical apartheid regime to a non-racial democracy
00:53:30 democracy and then south africa was permitted to come back into international sport in a way that i welcome so my point is until non-violent direct action was instigated and i probably
00:53:47 was instigated and i probably bear responsibility and proudly do so if that's the case for instigating it and leading it until that happened things have been hearing
00:53:51 hearing inside the country before
00:54:10 until that point can we begin to get progress
00:54:14 progress uh lord hayne i don't know whether you can hear me but your voice um i'm afraid there was an interruption in the quality of the audio channel and we missed i think about the last 20 seconds
00:54:27 seconds of your ass thank you for i wasn't aware of that but i'm grateful i was simply making the point that up until
00:54:35 until uh the phase of non-violent direct action with which i laid through the stopper 720 campaign but was participated in by tens of thousands of others so i'm not
00:54:46 others so i'm not alone responsible at all i know it ever claimed to be up until that point things in sport in south africa were getting worse it was becoming more racist
00:54:56 racist uh sports officials who wanted an anti-apartheid support system inside the country were being jailed and banned and imprisoned including on robben island and harassed and forced into exile after we stopped the 1970 cricketer
00:55:14 we stopped the 1970 cricketer that began to change thank you for that introduction because i'm now going to move to the stopper 70 tour and the to be crystal clear the the aim was
00:55:20 was to stop the springbok rugby tour to stop the south african cricket team touring and to isolate white
00:55:32 touring and to isolate white south african sport and therefore contribute to toppling the apartheid system absolutely to be more precise the name
00:55:44 absolutely to be more precise the name uh reveals the objective it was to stop the 1970
00:55:45 the 1970 cricket tour stop the 720 campaign but in the meantime the springbok rugby tour
00:55:58 tour which arrived in october in 1969 and and played 20 odd matches until the end of january
00:56:00 january then became the target to try and show that we could disrupt a rugby tour and therefore
00:56:12 therefore achieve our objective of stopping the cricketer either if it came but preferably before it did so that's just as it were a clarification of the otherwise accurate uh description you've given
00:56:23 you've given thank you for that and this operation was
00:56:24 was if i've understood your witness statement correctly essentially run from your parents flat it was um my mother became the unofficial
00:56:38 unofficial secretary though the official secretary was huge
00:56:40 was huge a reading university student who played an important part but yes it was run from our flat at 21a gwendolyn avenue in putney because there was no other headquarters for the organization i think it's important just to
00:56:53 i think it's important just to understand mr barr without taking too much of your time or so john's time that this was a campaign that
00:57:00 that lifted off out of nowhere uh and suddenly became a massive nationwide campaign
00:57:10 campaign and it was very spontaneous very decentralized if the spring box would go into manchester then manchester anti-apartheid activists would organize there i wouldn't do that
00:57:21 there i wouldn't do that if they went to swansea then the wales anti-apartheid movement would do that and so on in i think 25 matches around
00:57:28 around britain and one in dublin so it was very decentralized very autonomous there was no central command and control and to that extent no central conspiratorial
00:57:42 extent no central conspiratorial direction from me though i provided leadership and uh leaflets and uh publicity of that kind thank you can you help us with then that the role of the putney flat
00:57:56 the role of the putney flat who was it who was meeting in the putney flat
00:58:03 flat meetings of the national stop the 72 committee took place in my parents living room whilst they retired to their bedrooms or the kitchen it was quite a modest flat with four children uh
00:58:15 a modest flat with four children uh which i was the of whom i was the eldest and my mother and father the meetings were held there and our telephone was effectively the the telephone number for the national campaign of the stst movement and letters arrived
00:58:31 movement and letters arrived at the flat so it effectively was the campaign headquarters it wasn't particularly intended that way it wasn't planned that way but my mother effectively became
00:58:42 way but my mother effectively became as i say the the unofficial secretary uh completely all of her time virtually apart from family matters was taken up with that voluntary role it may become important later so whilst we're scene setting can you
00:58:56 we're scene setting can you give us some idea of how big the living room was
00:58:58 room was uh in memory i would think it was 20 odd feet by about 10 feet it might have been 21 feet
00:59:09 have been 21 feet it was reasonably large but not massive
00:59:15 now as you've you've described a highly decentralized group with your small national committee operating from the living room of your parents flat it's right to say that in addition to
00:59:27 to it being a rather if i hope i'm not insulting you amorphous uh decentralized group um it also was affiliated to a number of organizations and i'm taking a list from your your witness
00:59:41 taking a list from your your witness statement the affiliates included the anti-apartheid movement they were affiliated to the stopper 72 campaign yes rather than the other way around
00:59:50 around exactly the the national union of students
00:59:54 students at the national league of young liberals the student christian movement the international socialists and the young
01:00:00 young communist league
01:00:06 yes i think that was the complete list and so
01:00:07 and so the united nations in that list the united nations student association in that list but it should be thank you um and so
01:00:21 thank you um and so again to come back to the the smears that you talked about earlier that's right you were not communist uh the group
01:00:30 the group at the sdst was not communist but you did
01:00:33 did have amongst your affiliates the young communist league and a trotskyist organization the international socialists yes uh no no secret about that
01:00:44 yes uh no no secret about that along with christians and vicars and priests and bishops and uh a variety of people my philosophy mr barr
01:00:50 mr barr always has been where they're tackling racism through the anti-nazi league as we'll discuss later all through the anti-apartheid struggle is you bring in the broadest
01:01:01 is you bring in the broadest spectrum of opinion that you can that shares in common a single objective of defeating apartheid
01:01:12 defeating apartheid or defeating racism and that all people of good will rally to who believe in that objective can rally together even though they may disagree about everything else i mean
01:01:23 i mean the bishops involved supporting us would have perhaps had a friendly argument with the atheists in the organization similarly um a young liberal like me at the time
01:01:33 the time albeit a libertarian socialist would have had strong disagreements with trotskyists or or young communists but that doesn't stop us collaborating together
01:01:43 together the connection is the common laws the common cause which i think you know if you judge it historically was a noble cause and we were on the right side of history and the people who were opposing us
01:01:56 were opposing us were on the wrong side of history and how big
01:01:59 how big was the national committee it was around about 15 something like that uh you had the representatives of each of the affiliates not
01:02:13 affiliates not all of whom always attended but meetings were
01:02:16 were around about 15 maybe a dozen sometimes maybe a little more if extra people came in who were invited to come in and how did we how did one get on to the
01:02:28 we how did one get on to the national committee uh you were affiliate you
01:02:30 you you sent a representative through your affiliated organization or you were a an activist who was um doing a lot of work
01:02:41 who was um doing a lot of work voluntary work and you were felt to be important to be there and then i invited anybody in that position
01:02:49 position and how often did you see the national committee
01:02:55 not that often maybe monthly in the period from september through till september 1969 through to may 1970 we didn't spend much time in committee bureaucracy we spent
01:03:09 in committee bureaucracy we spent our time focused on organizing and and achieving what we wanted to achieve how well did you know the committee members
01:03:22 members reasonably well some of them better than others
01:03:23 others for example alan brooks from the anti-apartheid movement i knew very well he tended to attend sometimes others on on his behalf i knew them reasonably
01:03:37 on his behalf i knew them reasonably well but some of them i didn't know well um just before we we immerse ourselves further in the detail as i understand it we're dealing with a total of 25 springbok
01:03:49 springbok fixtures and a plan for 12 cricket matches
01:03:54 matches yes the original intention was to have i think 24
01:03:58 think 24 cricket matches but that was halved in number two 12 uh in february 1970 as a result of a recognition by the cricket authorities at large cricket
01:04:09 cricket authorities at large cricket ground where they were based that they couldn't
01:04:13 couldn't actually organize successfully that number of matches at grounds that couldn't as easily be defended
01:04:20 defended in their view as the 12 could be so they chopped the the tour in half before it was due to start
01:04:26 start which was an early sign of alice's success i think i i joked that we should call it the stop the 70 half tour committee at that time i see and you uh you were quite open uh about what your intentions were
01:04:39 your intentions were i'm going to read from your book again quoting from a letter that you wrote to the guardian on the 22nd of august of 1969
01:04:53 on the 22nd of august of 1969 it reads the consequences of another refusal
01:04:57 refusal by the mcc to cancel the tour should not be underestimated the token disruptions during the recent tour
01:05:05 tour of the wolf isaacs 11 to britain and the davis cup match at bristol demonstrated the seriousness of threats to massively disrupt the 1970
01:05:19 to massively disrupt the 1970 tour next summer could see a season consisting of an endless series of protests and disruptions absolutely and remember that that tour was invited
01:05:34 was invited after the basil dolover affair you may recall that basil doloveira was a colored in south african racial designation of mixed blood from cape town so excellent a cricketer that he could easily have played for his own country the country of his birth but he had to come into exile
01:05:48 he had to come into exile to pursue his career in england and became an
01:05:49 became an england test star by 1966 and by 1968 was an automatic one of the top few handful of of cricketers as an automatic selection
01:06:04 cricketers as an automatic selection he was then excluded from the england team due to tour of south africa at the end of 1968 on orders of the south african prime minister john foster who banned
01:06:15 prime minister john foster who banned the tour because it was too embarrassing to have a delivery in and he was important to this and important to my letter at the time and the and the level of intensity that i felt about
01:06:28 i felt about it because here um the english cricket authorities were on the back of being so badly snubbed by the south african government to stop a an england team coming chosen on merit with basil oliveira in it because
01:06:42 with basil oliveira in it because he would have illustrated the whole oppression and farcical nature of apartheid that he was an england team coming with a south african-born
01:06:53 african-born cricketer who could not play for his own country and that was stopped and nevertheless a few months later the english qriket authorities invited the
01:07:00 the south africans the white south african city in 1970. so that was why there was i felt so strongly about it and that's why it was reflected in in that letter that they were clearly on the side of apartheid the english
01:07:11 the side of apartheid the english cricket authorities and the racist form of cricket that um operated under that system the threat i'm i'm following at the moment is the
01:07:23 moment is the what it was that you were making very clear the sgst was going to do we've got the
01:07:29 the massive disruption uh that is promised in the guardian letter i'm going to move next to the press conference at the st
01:07:40 next to the press conference at the st my point yes and absolutely and i stand by that letter and i wouldn't write a rewrite a a word in it
01:07:47 in it uh from memory but you you need to understand why feelings that got to that point why we
01:07:54 we were left with no alternative but to adopt that strategy of non-violent direct action particularly after the basil dolavira affair
01:08:00 affair i i can tell you it's the merits of the reasoning aren't in fact the inquiry is
01:08:06 is focused the rights and wrongs of it we're looking at the undercover policing and so i'm going to follow the but you've got to understand the context
01:08:18 you've got to understand the context that we were operating it i didn't yes i i quite quite take that point and i thought i mean i'm sure you wouldn't be nor would sir john be on the side of a plantation sport of course you wouldn't be but he would therefore be in with us in sentiment
01:08:29 sentiment i hope and i i take all of that point and you've explained it very clearly i'm going to pick up now on the 10th of september
01:08:41 september and the press conference that the stst held and
01:08:44 held and i'm going to quote again from your book um what you said there we will be organizing mass demonstrations and disruptions throughout the tour next summer's
01:08:55 throughout the tour next summer's cricket season could collapse into chaos should the tour take place we are fighting british collaboration with racialism in sport and this is a fight we are confident of winning
01:09:09 winning we are today issuing a clear warning to british sports authorities that their complicity in apartheid sport will no longer be tolerated
01:09:21 will no longer be tolerated all future tours including the rugby tour starting in november will be severely disrupted now you can take it as a given uh lord hayne that the fact that you were on the right side of history is completely accepted and thank you
01:09:34 accepted and thank you what i'm following is the tactic and the tactic is to make publicly very clear
01:09:43 clear that what is coming is massive disruption yes non-violent direct action indeed i never hid that i was very clear about it public about it
01:09:55 it public about it nobody could have been in any doubt about it and the objective was to bring the cricket authorities to their senses i all the way along wanted to stop that cricket tour from happening from taking place i didn't want to
01:10:08 from taking place i didn't want to have to uh organize those protests that was not my preference and we've been driven to the point and i've been driven to the point of making those statements and making those threats of you
01:10:28 those threats of you if you like uh to try and stop apartheid sports tours from happening because no other tactics have been able to achieve those objectives and and you had support in what you were doing from the young liberals didn't you yes for the most part
01:10:40 didn't you yes for the most part for the most part i'll i'll give a flavor of that by reading further from your book about what they said at around the same time i believe that this is a quote from the chair of the young liberals louis x
01:10:55 chair of the young liberals louis x i hope i've pronounced that correctly he said
01:10:58 said i believe that many people are prepared to risk arrest and even imprisonment on this crucial issue of principle we have asked the mcc on numerous occasions to take a reason to stand against apartheid in sport
01:11:13 to stand against apartheid in sport it is they who will be responsible if lords becomes the ulster of the sporting world next summer
01:11:26 of the sporting world next summer louise had a a a a tendency for return of phrase that was very flamboyant and very attention seeking and i may add mr barr that although i was publicly a young liberal and a prominent one
01:11:37 and a prominent one the stopper 720 campaign was not dominated by young liberals it was a small
01:11:46 small we were a small part of the campaign uh it was it was a much broader spectrum including members of the anti-apartheid movement and i think a number of them felt that louis x's statements at the time were rather
01:11:59 time were rather self-promoting i simply put that in context
01:12:02 context i mean he was not organizing the campaign i was i would not have used those those words but they undoubtedly uh captured attention
01:12:13 attention yes undoubtedly a resting word but it is right isn't it that a number of young liberals did participate in yes indeed i was a young liberal and uh you've already described um early parts of the early protests
01:12:25 of the early protests will firezix and the tennis match for example which were undertaken by young liberals
01:12:33 liberals and one of the reasons that your campaign was so powerful is is the importance of international sport to people and the profile of international sporting events is that fair yes it was um
01:12:46 fair yes it was um because if you like uh in traditional newspaper terms the story was not simply going to be tucked away in the news pages
01:12:59 tucked away in the news pages of a demonstration it would be on the sports pages as well and because sport was being focused upon because apartheid sports tours were happening in our own country
01:13:12 happening in our own country selected on a racist basis of course that would attract extra attention therefore extra pressure and extra mobilization for a successful campaign which we were able to achieve and you've explained very graphically if
01:13:26 and you've explained very graphically if i may say so the strength of the feeling amongst the anti-apartheid campaigners including yourself but it's fair to say also that interrupting high-profile
01:13:41 high-profile sporting matches evinces strong emotions uh from amongst the supporters to which we will return yes most most couldn't understand why we were doing this they simply saw their rugby or their
01:13:52 they simply saw their rugby or their cricket being interrupted and and didn't understand it and it was a bit of a dialogue of the deaf uh in that respect and in fact
01:14:04 deaf uh in that respect and in fact um i've had lots of people i won't take your time but about too much of your time but i have lots of people in after nelson mandela came out of prison who would stop me in the street or on the
01:14:15 or on the the underground in london or wherever uh just quite um unexpectedly and say look i hated you at the time for what you did to rugby and cricket but i now understand
01:14:26 and cricket but i now understand why you did it and i've changed my mind so but at the time yes it did undoubtedly provoke a great deal of um of criticism and opposition and
01:14:40 of criticism and opposition and anger from uh from sports fans who were deprived of what they loved and i understand that well now let's descend into the detail of how
01:14:53 of how your promise to massively disrupt things began to materialize i'm going to we're going back
01:15:05 going back to oxford this time the 23rd of october 1969 and again reading from your book suddenly the campaign exploded into action
01:15:08 action and into prominence it was announced on the 23rd of october that weedkiller had been sprayed on oxford university's rugby ground just a week before the team was due to arrive
01:15:21 arrive the words oxford rejects apartheid appeared in foot letters on the pitch the next day the university rugby club officials called off the match
01:15:32 called off the match they said that they had taken this decision after consultations with the thames valley police quote because of the risk of violence unquote
01:15:46 and does that fairly summarize what happened
01:15:49 happened at oxford what doesn't summarize it fairly
01:15:50 fairly is the risk of violence the oxford anti-apartheid group which organized this quite independently of me i might add though to with my general approval though i was never a fan of
01:16:07 approval though i was never a fan of spraying weed killer anywhere but the oxford anti-aponte movement was not intending violence it was intending to adopt the same non-violent direct action tactics that it adopted during the
01:16:18 it adopted during the will for isaac's tour except on a much much bigger scale and that was why the the the game was cancelled and the venue was um transferred accepting completely that the sdsc's line was very strongly
01:16:33 line was very strongly and unequivocally anti-violence there was never
01:16:33 was never when you say our line uh that was our our agenda and our objective was very public it wasn't some kind of convenient um as it were
01:16:44 convenient um as it were sophistry it was a very publicly stated committed philosophy of the whole organization from its upset principle
01:16:58 a principle would you agree principle yes yes
01:17:03 yes yes but accepting that um emotions running high on both sides there is the potential for violence isn't that
01:17:12 not not inevitably no if the response from the police and any steward in the ground is proportionate no uh when for example um
01:17:23 uh when for example um two of my friends ran on the pitch at twickenham uh in december uh 1969 and one of them managed to the other tried and successfully to chain themselves to the rugby
01:17:36 themselves to the rugby uh posts they were not seeking to provoke violence they were indulging in classic classic non-violent direct action when i jumped over or tried to get over the
01:17:50 over or tried to get over the the fence at twickenham the the barrier onto the pitch between the spectator stand and the pitch um i wasn't trying to provoke violence i was trying to get onto the pitch and i wasn't trying to fight with anybody and when the police grabbed me and carried me out i didn't
01:18:07 carried me out i didn't resist it i didn't seek to inflict any harm on the police officers who were doing their job i was simply trying to to get onto the pitch to stop an apartheid rugby match
01:18:21 i'm going to move now to the 26th of october and the anti-apartheid movement's annual general meeting for 1969. did you see christopher gurney's evidence yesterday
01:18:32 evidence yesterday i saw a summary of it she she was questioned on and described the links
01:18:45 the links or to be more precise the lack of any formal link between the sdst and the sdst's non-violent direct action and the anti-apartheid movement did you see that part of her evidence
01:18:58 part of her evidence yeah she was correct about that thank you
01:19:02 you and can we now move then to the arrival of the spring box on the 30th of october 1906. by the way that that anti-apartheid movement annual general meeting
01:19:17 general meeting had um intelligence operatives in it i think south african security operatives tape recording the whole thing
01:19:28 and uh collaborating with uh british um the british special branch and uh and other
01:19:29 other intelligence operations including presumably by undercover officers they were working together
01:19:40 were working together i'm going to move to the arrival of the spring box on the 30th of october 1969 and there is um
01:19:48 an account in your book that i'm going to read now it reads early on the thursday morning the reading group took the initiative when about 30 of them staged a protest at the team's arrival
01:20:02 arrival they chanted slogans and paraded with banners as the players climbed into their coach there were scuffles as a small group of south africans who had come to welcome the team
01:20:15 who had come to welcome the team exchange blows with an airport official sdst's secretary hugh geech who had organized a demonstration afterwards made the statement which dogged the spring box throughout the tour he said quote
01:20:26 throughout the tour he said quote we are going to hound them everywhere they
01:20:26 they go this airport protest will also be remembered for the slogan used by the demonstrators which caused so much mirth amongst non-white south africans don't scrum
01:20:41 scrum with a racist bum yes and i'd simply add to that accurate description that you'll notice that the stop the 72 protests
01:20:49 protests at heathrow airport were perfectly peaceful
01:20:54 peaceful and we're not engaged in any violent act at all
01:20:59 thank you and it's right isn't it that the movement made good on its promise to to hound the south africans uh every step
01:21:08 step of the way because uh the very next day halloween 1969 there were protests at the first training
01:21:19 protests at the first training session again i'll read from your book at their first training session early the following morning the springboks were again greeted by stst demonstrators the demonstration had in fact been organized on the spur of the moment
01:21:33 organized on the spur of the moment by my family when they heard that the practice session was to take place near our home the session was briefly interrupted by a small local stst group receiving massive
01:21:45 local stst group receiving massive press and television coverage in the evening
01:21:48 evening jeering and picketing demonstrators greeted the team as it arrived for a reception at the south african embassy in a protest organized by the anti-apartheid movement
01:22:00 anti-apartheid movement both of these relatively minor protests received wide publicity principally because of the unpredictable nature
01:22:05 nature of our direct action threats yes and i want to pick up on that thread of the unpredictable nature it's a combination isn't it of the
01:22:16 it's a combination isn't it of the unpredictable nature of the threat and the fact that the tactics being used go beyond the conventional that make these protests so effective
01:22:27 that make these protests so effective yes but it doesn't make them violence avoid them violent or lead to violence there's a very important distinction to be made there which i hope you'll accept indeed from the point of view
01:22:43 indeed from the point of view of uh policing though it does make them very difficult to police well if there'd been cooperation from the police that might not have been the case but
01:22:54 case but i accept that i accept that but i also accept
01:22:55 accept um as i hope with with historical hindsight will be accepted by this inquiry that these protests were necessary to change the course of history which they did
01:23:10 did um and i don't mean you know any means justifies the ends otherwise i'd have a different philosophy about a lot of things but i don't believe that any means justifies the ends or out of
01:23:22 justifies the ends or out of advocated violence for example if i'd thought that that would have achieved the objective but i you know i the police have got to decide when facing anti-apartheid protests of this kind on whose side they are
01:23:38 kind on whose side they are are they on the other side of apartheid or are they on the side of the anti-apartheid movement and in many cases in
01:23:45 cases in respect of undercover offices they made the wrong choice they sought to harass and infiltrate us rather than dealing with agents of apartheid in london
01:23:58 london who were bombing the headquarters of nelson mandela's african national congress in 1982 and who were were also fire an arson attack on the anti-aponte movement's headquarters in 1985 and a number of other attacks
01:24:13 1985 and a number of other attacks including on me by sending me electable and the police really in targeting us and our process we're putting on themselves on the wrong side of history in my view
01:24:24 i'm going to come back at the end to these very interesting themes about the relevance of the justice of the cause and so forth and proportionality
01:24:35 cause and so forth and proportionality at the moment i'd like to pick up on on the thread of cooperation with the police
01:24:38 police it's right isn't it that because the unpredictably unpredictability of the action is part of its potency that you weren't telling the police in advance what you were going to do
01:24:55 were going to do quite the contrary if we were organizing a protest outside the ground of a conventional rally march then you would talk to the police about that so that it was pleased effectively it
01:25:09 so that it was pleased effectively it took place effectively and it took place peacefully if we were seeking to run on the pitch obviously i wouldn't ring up the police commander and tell him though i had perfectly civil relations with
01:25:22 civil relations with commander gerard some of the time so no absolutely fair point the novelty the surprise
01:25:25 surprise of the non-violent direct action was its potency
01:25:29 potency and i make no secret of that uh indeed that's why we adopted it i i i'm going to move now to swansea on the 15th of november 1969 and
01:25:41 on the 15th of november 1969 and this is where um things go wrong isn't it very wrong but not because of our action at all as uh no doubt so i'll be given an opportunity to explain
01:25:54 explain indeed what i'm going to do is i'm going to
01:25:59 i could cover it from your book i'm going to give you an opportunity though i know you weren't there in person but you were close to events could you describe what happened
01:26:12 there was a march outside the saint helens stadium in swansea on that saturday against the match organized by the wales anti-aponte movement
01:26:24 anti-aponte movement there were then some members of the wales anti-apartheid movement but principally stopped the 72 student activists who traveled down to swansea
01:26:33 swansea to run on the pitch in the way that we've described and was our principal objective they ran on they sat down they interrupted play for as i recall over 10 minutes in
01:26:46 for as i recall over 10 minutes in as was intended they were then carried off by the police and thrown to rugby stewards um rugby vigilantes if you like recruited for these purposes and and
01:26:59 for these purposes and and thoroughly beaten up and a friend of mine had his jaw broken a a young woman demonstrator nearly lost an eye there was serious injuries suffered by by non-violent protesters
01:27:13 by non-violent protesters that didn't need to happen they could have been carried out of some helens but there was clearly a pre-planned attempt to beat the hell out of the out of the protesters and that's what happened
01:27:24 happened and as a result of that uh independent newspaper reports for example in the times which was hostile to the tactics of non-violent direct action editorially
01:27:42 non-violent direct action editorially nevertheless said that the policing and the behavior of the rugby stewards was completely out of control and unacceptable and i led a delegation to the home office and met the minister of state uh with a small delegation with a petition describing it
01:27:55 petition describing it in some graphic detail as a result of which policing was changed and um there was a nothing like that happened again
01:28:03 again which i was um pleased about i'm going to read from the stst
01:28:15 i'm going to read from the stst statement which in which you said uh the following
01:28:23 following we are demanding a full public inquiry into the swansea demonstration and particularly into the role played by the rugby vigilantes this private army of rugby thugs was responsible for some of the most systemic and brutal mob violence
01:28:38 systemic and brutal mob violence ever seen on peaceful demonstrators in britain
01:28:42 britain the introduction of the vigilantes into the protest arena must now call into question the whole future of the tour unless something is done now
01:28:54 unless something is done now someone may get killed was that hyperbole
01:28:58 hyperbole no at the time i really felt it i was really worried about it and i wanted a response from the police and those responsible for organizing the rugby matches on the tour to behave in a in a more civil way
01:29:13 to behave in a in a more civil way and so accepting what you say entirely that as we've been through the sdsg had a principled objection to violence the reality was though
01:29:28 though that the level of hostility that the stst was facing from rugby fans was such
01:29:40 from rugby fans was such that it was evincing serious violence which led actually to serious injury and could have resulted in someone being killed
01:29:50 killed that was my fear it didn't happen because policing from that point on onward was better organized
01:29:59 organized and the rugby authorities didn't um indulge in that kind of violent behavior the violence i repeat didn't come from the stop the 72 protesters they suffered violence because of their
01:30:10 they suffered violence because of their their non-violent direct action tactics they they offered no resistance to being carried off the the the pitch they didn't fight with the police
01:30:22 police they didn't seek to pick a fight with the rugby stewards if they'd been carried and unceremoniously dumped on the pavement outside the ground has happened to me on several occasions to twickenham
01:30:33 twickenham that would have been uh a a a good outcome uh all round from a policing point of view from a rugby uh
01:30:44 rugby uh organizer point of view and from the protesters point of view i'm going to move now um back to the living room at 21a gwendolyn avenue to the 5th of december 1969
01:31:00 avenue to the 5th of december 1969 and a meeting of the stop the 70 tour ad hoc
01:31:07 hoc committee that was held for the purposes of planning ahead for the twickenham rugby match on the 20th of june to occur on the 20th of december 1969. i'm going to start by reading your account of that meeting from your book
01:31:22 account of that meeting from your book and planning meetings before the match it was decided to stage a sit-down protest in front of the team's coach as it left for twickenham and a group was delegated to take responsibility for this
01:31:35 responsibility for this by this stage we had established an inner group working behind the scenes on one or two special activities
01:31:46 special activities this group came up with a plan to have someone chain himself to the team's coach
01:31:49 coach to waylay the coach in the london traffic
01:31:50 traffic and to get a few demonstrators to handcuff themselves to the goalposts this last was made possible when we suddenly acquired four
01:32:02 suddenly acquired four special tickets normally available only to rugby clubs for the ringside seats in front of the surrounding fence and virtually on the touchline two people were booked into the team's parklane hotel
01:32:16 parklane hotel the day before the match they spent a busy night on activities designed to delay the team which included gumming up the player's bedroom door locks with a solidifying
01:32:28 bedroom door locks with a solidifying agent that's a fair description is it it's a fair description it's what happened all non-violent activity absolutely can i come back to the inner group
01:32:37 group working behind the scenes can you distinguish this group please from the national committee yes uh apart from i don't think that there were actually any
01:32:50 there were actually any national committee members involved in in that group apart from me and i was kept in close touch with its activities and helped plan many of them and it was designed to to do novel
01:33:04 and it was designed to to do novel imaginative non-violent direct action tactics
01:33:07 tactics precisely the kind that uh you just described
01:33:08 described uh in the the pre-christmas international between the springboks and and england and so how big was the the inner group uh less than
01:33:23 inner group uh less than six probably four or five maybe maybe half a dozen i would i would think but certainly not bigger than that and what were the entrance qualifications people are trusted did you know them all i did there was not a single
01:33:36 i did there was not a single undercover officer on them involved and i don't want to make you paranoid but how did you know that because none of its activities were ever reported on
01:33:50 reported on uh in any of the documentation the voluminous documentation i've been provided with kindly by by the inquiry
01:33:59 inquiry and nor did anything that it planned ever um leak out as it were and nor was it ever thought it so that's why i
01:34:07 why i i i take that view um the only planned activity that it did instigate was to organize uh pretend to organize a
01:34:21 organize uh pretend to organize a protest outside south african airways offices
01:34:22 offices in london's west end and talk about that on our own telephone and surprise surprise there were police outside the building even though the people
01:34:34 even though the people involved in allegedly organizing that protest which was never due to happen it was designed to expose that so the people involved uh were very trust very trustworthy
01:34:50 uh were very trust very trustworthy ernest rodker was one a witness before the inquiry and uh so was jonathan rosenhead
01:34:54 rosenhead and can you help me with the meeting on the 5th of december was that a meeting of the inner group or was that a meeting of the national committee or some other composition of people um
01:35:08 composition of people um you're asking me to be as precise as that if you can't remember you say so i think from memory that that was a meeting a more informal meeting of the national
01:35:22 meeting of the national of the national committee i think but it was designed specifically to plan the twickenham protest is what i think i don't have the book in front of me so i can't confirm that but that's what i
01:35:36 that's what i i i recollect and coming back to the inner group why was it felt necessary to have the inner group because we suspected we might be infiltrated and was it also because of the risk of prosecution for conspiracy
01:35:52 prosecution for conspiracy no not really it was more to to do these imaginative acts of nonviolent direct action and make sure that they happened
01:36:05 thank you so would would now be a convenient moment for our morning break certainly it would be um lord hey we have to give the shorthand writers 15 minutes off i'm very happy to comply with that thank you good to be back in 15 minutes thanks very much thank you
01:36:25 good morning everyone we will now take a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please the time is now 11 15 am so we shall reconvene at 11 30 am thank you
01:49:54 uh
01:50:21 good morning everyone welcome back i will now head over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you mr bob thank you sir lord hane before the break we were looking
01:50:36 we were looking at the account in your book of the planning meeting for the december twickenham match we're now going to move to the second account
01:50:45 account that we have got of that match so it's a tab one of the hard copy bundle if we could have up please on the screen ucp
01:50:55 sixnorps8656
01:51:04 please
01:51:19 right lord hane this is uh the report of the undercover police officer mike ferguson uh who we know by the hern nominal hn
01:51:34 nominal hn 135 stated the 9th of december 1969 it says that it's about a meeting of the stop the 70 tour ad hoc committee
01:51:43 committee held on the 5th of december 1969 at 21 a gwendolyn avenue and it says that it was attended by six persons
01:51:50 persons among whom was peter hayne and then we have redacted for privacy reasons
01:51:57 reasons the other names first of all
01:52:11 the other names first of all lord hayne you have been provided in confidence uh with the restricted uh cover name of uh michael ferguson has that helped you to recall that undercover police officer no
01:52:26 that undercover police officer no and i've not seen a photograph of him either
01:52:30 either to be able to identify him though i did read an article by his daughter in the guardian a few years ago which gave me some inkling
01:52:42 gave me some inkling uh a memory of 50 years ago as to who he might have been from her description of him you know that he used to wear a coat and a scarf and drive a battered old van then i began to think who he might be
01:52:59 our policy with photographs is if we've got a photograph of the undercover officer
01:52:59 officer as he or she appeared in their undercover identity then we provide it but we don't have one presumably the metropolitan police do though
01:53:11 metropolitan police do though i think probably that's a matter to take up separately but we we don't have a photograph of him in in his undercover police identity now
01:53:23 police identity now does the record of there being six people
01:53:23 people at this meeting sound right to you yeah about right there there are many us other aspects of his report which we'll no doubt come to that i fundamentally dispute indeed
01:53:38 that i fundamentally dispute indeed and we'll go through it looking on the down the left-hand margin we see box 500 stamped on the side of the page that that means it's gone to the security service
01:53:50 security service and we'll come back to that later later on
01:53:54 for the moment looking at paragraph three
01:54:00 three says the meeting was called to discuss basic tactics for the international match at twickenham on the 20th of december 1969 and they agreed on three separate activities
01:54:11 activities one a mass demonstration outside the ground
01:54:13 ground in which people from all walks are expected to participate no particular incident as yet planned for this demonstration but there is a possibility that a sit-down will be encouraged
01:54:27 encouraged somewhere along the route in an attempt to disrupt the flow of spectators or possibly the teams to the ground do take issue with with any of that not from
01:54:41 from my recollection though paragraph two action within the ground itself hane is letting it be known generally that to hold a demonstration within the ground would be impracticable
01:54:53 ground would be impracticable for several reasons the security precautions lack of tickets and general crush of spectators in fact 305 shilling stand
01:55:04 in fact 305 shilling stand tickets have now been obtained and it is felt
01:55:08 felt that if a concentrated effort is made a successful incident may be staged and if we could scroll down a bit please the target is the goal post where at
01:55:24 the target is the goal post where at least two demonstrators are to handcuff themselves to the posts in the vicinity of the crossbar whilst this was being discussed ernest rodker rang to say that he had obtained six pairs of handcuffs the
01:55:37 had obtained six pairs of handcuffs the exact mechanics of this plan have yet to be worked out do you agree with that yes and three it is generally understood
01:55:48 and three it is generally understood that the spring box will be using the park lane hotel park lane w1 from about the 13th of december
01:55:56 december until after the international match and there is general agreement that some action should be taken against springboks themselves in an effort to prevent them from taking part
01:56:05 part in the and if we could have that
01:56:09 scroll down onto the next page please
01:56:23 thank you match to this end privacy redaction is going to attempt to obtain employment into the parklane hotel in order to obtain inside information as to their movements at the same time privacy redaction using a false name is to book
01:56:44 using a false name is to book accommodation at the hotel for at least the night of the friday the 19th of december do you agree with that broadly but if the implication is that action against the springboks would be to somehow attack them as individuals then
01:56:57 somehow attack them as individuals then no that was definitely not the intention as long as that loss is not interpreted from this report the things we are intending were to
01:57:08 the things we are intending were to do exactly what we described before the break in respect of the team's bus and in a coach and in terms of um
01:57:21 bus and in a coach and in terms of um gumming up the door locks of the players bedrooms and understood going back to subparagraph two
01:57:28 when a distinction was made between what you were
01:57:32 you were saying publicly about action within the ground
01:57:36 ground and what you were doing privately to prepare
01:57:42 prepare for people to handcuff themselves to the goal posts is that an example of deliberate misinformation in order to maximize the surprise value of your tactics
01:57:55 of your tactics it's an example of precisely the kind of non-violent direct action that uh we were planning to run on to the pitch and chain yourself to the the goal posts there was no
01:58:06 the goal posts there was no misinformation the anti-apartheid movement
01:58:11 movement with the support of the stop the 72 campaign was organizing a public demonstration outside we were not intending a demonstration inside in the sense of a massive
01:58:22 inside in the sense of a massive gathering of people we're intending to try and get on the pitch and stop the match
01:58:26 match but you were you were giving the impression that it was all going to happen outside where in fact you were planning a stunt for the inside i don't think
01:58:39 a stunt for the inside i don't think that was ever people or people knew all along that was our intention to get inside
01:58:42 inside i i never said in a misleading way we were only going to organize outside we did announce and the anti-apartheid movement organized a big peaceful rally outside
01:58:51 outside that was a declared public uh event we didn't pre-announce our non-violent direct tactics inside the ground or they wouldn't have happened would they
01:59:07 happened would they um well exactly exactly we're not misleading people i was not uh i was not lying about the situation
01:59:14 situation i couldn't have been publicly more clear about our attempt to stop the matches if we got a chance let's move now please lord hane to what actually happened
01:59:27 actually happened uh it's right isn't it that at the hotel uh some of the players door locks were glued
01:59:28 glued yes it's right isn't it uh that an activist got onto the spring box coach and chained himself to the steering wheel
01:59:40 the steering wheel yes he persuaded the driver to go and talk to the management in the hotel he was dressed in the spitter suit which was untypical for us at the time
01:59:55 which was untypical for us at the time and the driver accepted his credentials went into the hotel and he took his place
01:59:59 place and drove the coach away and chained himself to the um steering wheel as as was intended and um found it rather difficult to um drive a coach
02:00:08 coach whilst chained to the steering wheel to the point where he had a minor road traffic accident yes and also um he was uh grappled with by some of the springbok players
02:00:20 the springbok players uh who were on the coach already not the entire team they they kind of collectively uh forced the
02:00:29 the the coach to um to slew into the side and effectively have a mini crash uh and he he was assaulted wasn't he the activist yeah he was quite badly assaulted
02:00:41 yeah he was quite badly assaulted you've mentioned the large demonstration outside the ground that was organized by the
02:00:49 the anti-apartheid movement within the ground
02:00:54 ground your two colleagues did make a dash for the goal
02:00:54 the goal posts one made it the other didn't no the other was uh rugby tackled to the ground by a police officer
02:01:06 to the ground by a police officer so unfortunately never did make it but one of them did
02:01:14 thank you can we move now to bristol on new year's eve 1969 and this is a matter which you have i think dealt with in your witness
02:01:28 i think dealt with in your witness statement but you also deal with it in your book at page 143 and the way you deal with it in your book is to say
02:01:40 book is to say the next match at bristol on new year's eve was interrupted for nearly 10 minutes
02:01:44 minutes after a demonstrator ran onto the pitch and scattered tax a demonstration of over 500 had marched to the ground and spectators were leafleted in the early hours of that morning
02:01:59 in the early hours of that morning demonstrators rigged up two crow scarers and a smoke flare in the corridor outside the team's bedrooms with the idea of keeping the springboks awake
02:02:07 awake their plan was swatted when the hotel manager discovered the device that the hotel's fire alarm was set off first of all as best as you can recall is that factually accurate yes but i
02:02:20 is that factually accurate yes but i want to explain because it's pertinent to something that um i think was mike ferguson the undercover officer
02:02:28 officer uh infiltrating the stop the 720 campaign
02:02:29 campaign uh he he he specifically says in one of the reports the many reports with which the inquiry supplied me
02:02:41 me that we were planning to sprinkle tin tax the only example of tin tax being spread on the
02:02:52 example of tin tax being spread on the on any of the during any other matches was at this bristol incident but by a teacher
02:02:55 teacher i think his name was michael jordan who i'd never met and it was entirely spontaneous event as he subsequently explained uh and he did it as a one-off thing
02:03:09 uh and he did it as a one-off thing we i was expressly opposed always to tactics like that because you know i love the game of rugby like i do cricket and rugby players roll on the ground a lot and if they'd if they'd encountered um tin tax they would have been badly
02:03:24 would have been badly injured so this was something i deplored and opposed and it was a one-off event that isn't actually explained in that passage uh but i think it was mike ferguson in subsequent um
02:03:36 subsequent um uh uh subsequent documentation that you may or
02:03:40 may or may or may not be discussing alleged that it was planned to do this at a subsequent um match of the of of by the stop the 72 um demonstrators out twickenham and that was expressly a lie
02:03:54 twickenham and that was expressly a lie like a lot of his other claims were lies and exaggerations it's a feature isn't it of a group which is as loosely organized as the stst
02:04:05 is as loosely organized as the stst was it whatever the central line or central principle is you cannot control precisely what everybody does on the contrary you're encouraging them to go away
02:04:17 to go away make their own plans and to disrupt the matches
02:04:21 matches using their local knowledge in their own way is that fair i explained i think at the outset there was no central command and and structure to the stop the 72 campaign there was a leadership
02:04:35 campaign there was a leadership but there were no members who could be disciplined or ordered about and people were doing their own thing but um
02:04:44 but um that that was not part of a plan in the sense that i was not encouraging people to be violent
02:04:50 violent as it were adopting one public posture and privately giving a nod and a wink to people for example to sprinkle tin tax
02:04:55 tax on the contrary i was publicly always disavowing such tactics if they occurred and very few did they were that was an isolated case
02:05:08 was an isolated case nothing else like that happened in the tour and there was very little instances of um of planned violence that i knew of i don't remember any instance of a planned violent act
02:05:22 violent act although obviously this tin tax one could have led to that um but if you're making the point that this was a massive movement and there were lots of people organizing spontaneously yes they were but does that justify mike ferguson
02:05:38 but does that justify mike ferguson deploying special you know extraordinary police resources to take part in meetings in my living room
02:05:46 room or my parents living room and in young liberal meetings another undercover officer going by the name of mike scott who again don't don't recognize um
02:05:58 don't recognize um you know one of my points that we may or may not come to about the work of undercover officers during the stop for 72 campaign is why were they not targeting the agents of apartheid bombing and killing and
02:06:11 bombing and killing and and acting illegally and violently in london at the time why were they not um
02:06:18 um concentrating metropolitan police resources on drug traffickers and criminals
02:06:23 criminals and organized crime why were they diverting precious and limited resources into
02:06:32 into meetings in my living room some of which were half a dozen people of a putney young liberal meeting three of whom were members of my family
02:06:46 of whom were members of my family and one of whom on one occasion was a representative of the putney society which is a very very respectable uh uh organization in in part of the putney civil society briefing us about what was happening uh to the greenery around putney
02:06:57 around putney i mean this was a completely disproportionate waste of police resources
02:07:02 resources and it was on the wrong side of history because the mike fergusons and the mike scots
02:07:09 scots were actually what they should have been doing was helping bring down the apartheid system and deploying british security
02:07:16 security and policing resources to track down apartheid agents acting illegally in london instead of which they were spying on us thank you i'm going to move now to into 1970 into
02:07:29 1970 into dublin uh because the spring box went to dublin
02:07:29 dublin and you cover this at page 144 of your book i'm reading from towards the bottom of the page from the moment the team arrived at dublin airport
02:07:43 dublin airport they were assailed with protests which continued wherever they went hotels and training sessions included there were petitions and bomb scares conventional pickets and militant sit-downs and at the
02:07:57 and militant sit-downs and at the international match on saturday the 12th of january came the biggest and best demonstration of the whole tour ten
02:08:04 ten thousand people marched on the lansdowne road ground led by bernadette devlin mp and prominent
02:08:09 prominent irish public figures the march was the largest public assembly in dublin since the troubles of 50 years back there were various attempts to get into
02:08:21 there were various attempts to get into the ground and at one stage it was touch and go
02:08:24 and go whether a gate would fall under the weight of the demonstration letting through the whole mass inside the ground there were only sporadic outbursts of opposition
02:08:37 outbursts of opposition and the match went unhindered but this hardly surprising the pitch was encircled by barbed wire with hundreds of policemen stationed behind it
02:08:46 behind it first of all is that a fair um summary of what happened i think so i thought it was very appropriate to be surrounded by barbed wire because that symbolized the concentration camp conditions into which these matches were played
02:08:59 these matches were played apart and rugby matches were being played
02:09:03 played with all the resources of the state whether in britain or in that case ireland deployed to protect them there are two points i want to draw out from that description the first is the reference to bomb scares
02:09:18 is the reference to bomb scares was that or was that not something that the national committee would have condoned
02:09:19 condoned no we would have never even considered it not only would we not have condoned it we would have expressly condemned anything like that i don't know whether that happened
02:09:32 know whether that happened in the context of because i was not involved in in that demonstration nor did i organize it it was in ireland um but i don't know whether that bomb scare was
02:09:41 scare was part of the the escalating uh atmosphere of terrorism on the island of ireland
02:09:50 ireland which by then had begun um and that may have you know somebody may have
02:10:02 have found a telephone warning for all i know i simply reported in my book which you very fairly read out what i understand happened
02:10:12 and the other bit i want to pick up on is the weight of the demonstration uh almost bringing the gate down or a concern about the weight of the demonstration bringing the gate down
02:10:24 demonstration bringing the gate down that suggests a weight of numbers of people that would give rise to policing concerns and we know what happened
02:10:33 at hillsborough in very different circumstances but large numbers of people do generate policing issues don't they
02:10:40 they yes i totally understand that uh i was reporting what i understood to be happening
02:10:49 happening accurately into the best of my my ability at the time and it's recorded in in the book it was i think the biggest demonstration of the entire tour organized by the irish anti-apartheid movement led by
02:11:01 movement led by two south african exiles carter osman who subsequently became a minister in nelson mandela's government and his wife louise osmond
02:11:14 louise osmond thank you i'm going to move now back to great britain and in particular to worcester and the outfield on the 7th of january where you tell us in para 48 of your witness statement that
02:11:28 that weedkiller was applied to the outfield is that right was that the 7th of january did you say i think so i think it's later than that is it
02:11:38 yes yes that was that was certainly i think i reported that i think late i think it was more like the 20th but i got that from your book i'm reading page 165
02:11:48 page 165 where it reads then on the 7th of january came the news that the cricket world
02:11:55 world must have been expecting in one form or another
02:11:58 another demonstrators had applied weedkiller to the outfield of the worcester ground quotes as a warning of things to come ah right yes
02:12:06 right yes well if it was in my book it must have been correct mr bob thank you um it may be that it was a precursor to what i'm moving on to next which is the 19th of january when
02:12:17 january when what i thought you were talking about yes the 14 out of the 17 cricket clubs were were raided um and that involved
02:12:29 um and that involved painting the painting of slogans in one case the digging up of part of the pitch and in another case some weed killer being applied is that a a fair summary of what happens yes
02:12:48 having been through um these events and we haven't quite finished because we've got the last match at twickenham coming up but viewed from a policing perspective faced with these novel uh rather effective tactics
02:13:02 uh rather effective tactics with the violence that had occurred and with large crowds bomb scares in dublin
02:13:15 dublin would you accept that someone in charge of the policing of public order at these matches would have wanted to have as much intelligence as possible about the intentions of the stst well they knew what our
02:13:30 of the stst well they knew what our intentions were because we stated it publicly
02:13:34 publicly uh well i'm you know what i'm really driving at is about the behind the scenes plans for them well i know what you're trying to insinuate but i um when i don't want to misrepresent you but
02:13:47 but our plans were quite public we wanted to disrupt the tour by non-violent direct action
02:13:48 action bomb scares and weed killer and digging up cricket pictures and certainly spring sprinkling tin tacks were no part of those plans and indeed when that happened i condemned the
02:14:01 happened i condemned the demonic as as you will know publicly and is recorded in in my book um so you know it's not as if the stop the 70 tour was a secret conspiratorial
02:14:12 tour was a secret conspiratorial organization that nobody knew anything about
02:14:15 about a cell-like structure like a paramilitary organization or or of that ilk we were publicly we were transparently public some might say
02:14:26 say unwisely honest about what our intentions were which was to stop the tour by non-violent direct action
02:14:34 action and you know and that leads me to where i think you're taking me why was an undercover officer in virtually every meeting that i intend attended when they could have found out what i was planning to do by what i
02:14:46 what i was planning to do by what i publicly stated which is to try and stop the matches by non-violent action would it be fair to say they they would have known your broad intent that's as we went through earlier had been made
02:15:04 through earlier had been made abundantly clear they would have known the sort of tactics that the stst was going to use they'd had plenty of experience of that and you'd made it abundantly clear but what they did not have
02:15:15 have was precise information about who was going to do what when no that's fair enough and if their intention was to support the apartheid springbok tour
02:15:26 the apartheid springbok tour and protect it going ahead as seems to be the case then no doubt they were carrying out their duties but again i come back to why were they doing that
02:15:37 doing that rather than targeting people undertaking violent
02:15:38 violent illegal murders and bombings uh in london on behalf of the south african state
02:15:45 state i see thank you i'm going to move finally now to the last match the twickenham match 31st of january 1970 between springboks and the barbarians
02:15:59 and the barbarians i'm going to start by reading your account it starts at the bottom of page 146 and runs to the top of page 147.
02:16:10 146 and runs to the top of page 147. soon after the start the demonstrators began throwing the die onto the pitch immediately fighting broke out on the terraces as plain clothed detectives determined no doubt
02:16:20 no doubt to uphold the tough reputation the police had established at the twickenham matches
02:16:24 matches set upon the die throwers for good measure orange and grey smoke bombs were also tossed billowing onto the field
02:16:35 field and a constant barrage of chanting was kept up
02:16:38 kept up we were determined to give the spring box as i had put it in a press interview a rousing send-off but although there were one or two minor interruptions the game went on
02:16:52 interruptions the game went on on its own the demonstration would have provided a spectacular finish to the tour but there was still more in store for the spring box before they finally and wearily left for home
02:17:04 home protesters shouted and chanted at the reception after the match in the evening stst held a party which was geared towards one final project
02:17:15 project an attempt to talk to the team members one of our girls supporters had deliberately struck up a friendship with a springbok player at the team's bristol
02:17:22 bristol hotel a month before after the groundwork had been prepared the aim was to get him and some of his colleagues to our party with her everything went smoothly
02:17:34 with her everything went smoothly and she arranged to fetch him later that night after the reception but when she arrived at the hotel her man was completely drunk
02:17:45 man was completely drunk and so stst's mata hari came back alone thwarted by beer
02:17:52 that's accurate uh if i may just um clarify on the die the intention was to it was a form of dye that if it got damp it went
02:18:05 it went black uh and though there was white dye carried in in transparency in plastic packets
02:18:06 packets uh it was is to go back rolled if if the spring box rolled on the turf in a mall or a ruck their legs would then go black and their
02:18:21 their legs would then go black and their arms so the idea was to paint them black and send them back to make a kind of a graphic sort portrayal of the of the absurdities of apartheid in sport
02:18:32 in sport and and the smoke flares were designed they were not in any sense threatening to anybody they were designed to um to create the kind of visual impact
02:18:43 to create the kind of visual impact of a rugby match under siege which is what it which is what it was by that stage i should add it was much more difficult to run onto the pitch because the policing of the um the stadio
02:18:55 stadio around the barriers between spectators and the pitch was such it was very difficult to to climb over and get on get get um onto the pitch without being napped as i found myself i see uh writer i would like to move now to
02:19:13 uh writer i would like to move now to the aftermath of that and in particular um there is some there was some commenting true spies program about this this is in the bundle it's a tab 71 sir of the hard copy and the page that we want up
02:19:34 and the page that we want up on the screen please is ucpi five zeros three one eight four five
02:19:50 eight four five and if you've got the copy with a lot of pages
02:19:51 pages um please could we have page 12 please
02:20:02 um please could we have page 12 please and the bottom half of that page please
02:20:23 we can we just go over the page please
02:20:33 yeah that's it lovely thank you now lord hayne this is a transcript from the true spies programme and you will see that you are recorded as saying this is a campaign against the cricket
02:20:46 this is a campaign against the cricket tour and the rugby tour and apartheid in sport in general our organizing tactic will be one of non-violent direct action that is run onto the pitch and disrupt matches
02:20:57 matches then we get an undercut former undercover police officer using the pseudonym dan i remember meeting with a senior officer at scotland yard and i said there would be an awful lot of blood spilled on the streets of london
02:21:10 streets of london and that wasn't the view that was held in some circles at that time within the police service and can we take it lord hayne after everything you've told us this morning that was
02:21:19 that was most certainly not your view either well it was not only not my view it was
02:21:33 well it was not only not my view it was not factually correct there's an another example of a sort of self-promoting uh exaggeration by the undercover officers
02:21:36 officers involved in the stop the 720 campaign that
02:21:40 that they sometimes told the truth but often they told lies including about the trick in the match that we've just discussed that we were going to spread um tin tax on the on the on the pitch which was never
02:21:50 never anybody's intention and didn't happen so i think their intention was really to self-promote themselves really by exaggerating the threat
02:22:02 exaggerating the threat and the risk of violence and that quote is an example about blood spilled on the streets of london so that they became so important or perceived as so
02:22:16 so important or perceived as so important to their superiors in the metropolitan police they had to be kept going deeper and deeper and continuing to make all sorts of um devious and completely factually incorrect
02:22:27 and completely factually incorrect allegations about what was intended it was as it were to reinforce their own undercover policing role when they should have been as a
02:22:38 should have been as a risk of boring everybody they should have been concentrating their resources on violent illegal acts carried out by the apartheid
02:22:50 the apartheid state in london at the time they should have been concentrating metropolitan police resources on uh on tackling serious organized criminality and terrorism because those were the early days of the
02:23:04 early days of the iras bombing campaign in london can we go over the page please
02:23:10 and i'm going to
02:23:16 pick up i'm looking for the path that begins in
02:23:17 begins in general which is i think just a little bit higher up thank you
02:23:34 just a little bit higher up thank you sorry to the bottom of this page on the copy we're using in general the hare's aim was to raise rise within an organization but not to end up running it in the case of the stop the 70 tour
02:23:47 of the stop the 70 tour the harry who got very close to the top was called mike harris had handlers and mike's handler was wilf
02:23:54 was wilf and if we could go over the page now please
02:23:58 please mike worked his way into the organization by his shall i say his enthusiasm his dedication his skill his intelligence worked his way up to being peter haynes number two
02:24:11 being peter haynes number two i don't think peter hayne ever ever realized
02:24:15 realized that he had a police officer as his number two and then you are recorded um being asked were you aware of the attentions of special branch and mi5 i was not directly aware in the sense
02:24:29 i was not directly aware in the sense that somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said
02:24:33 and said hey we're keeping a watch on you but we had good reason to believe that this was happening and a number of events occurred during the stop the tour campaign which confirmed that i know you've answered
02:24:50 confirmed that i know you've answered this before in your witness statement but i'm going to ask you again after everything we've been through this morning
02:24:55 morning does it remain uh your recollection that you did not have a number two yes i didn't have a number two so that's another
02:25:04 another uh you know false statement by the undercover officer involved and uh there was no number two there were a number of senior people around me and he wasn't one of them
02:25:16 around me and he wasn't one of them certainly but there was no number two and
02:25:20 and if i may say so this underlines my point that i don't think you can rely on mike ferguson's reports of the stop the 720 campaign because his reports to his
02:25:34 his seniors were so factually incorrect and so so felt self-promotingly exaggerated uh and sometimes straight lies i think he was completely unreliable
02:25:46 can we scroll down a little bit please so that we have um the paragraph which is penultimate at the moment near the top of the page
02:26:01 the commentator says the harry's finest hour came at the climax of the tour during the match between the springboks and the barbarians at twickenham wilf the intention was for the demonstrators just prior to half-time
02:26:15 demonstrators just prior to half-time just throw flares smoke bombs and metal tacks onto the pitch mike pass that information on it was passed on to the uniform
02:26:26 passed on to the uniform and at the appointed time officers were there with sand buckets and metal magnets
02:26:29 magnets and although they threw as many as they could onto the pitch they were snuffed out taken away and and the players didn't know that it had taken place and when they came out after half time the game carried on
02:26:47 after half time the game carried on i think this is you've referred to this already and you pointed out that tax were not used at twickenham uh at that match they were not used and this is a very clear example of a lie
02:26:56 lie by mike in quotes uh a straight lie we didn't intend to spread tin tacs and i've explained why not because they'd have injured the players
02:27:08 have injured the players they were not in tax spread there were no reports of tin tax being perhaps intercepted and there were certainly no reports of any tin tax anywhere around that match
02:27:18 match in twickenham if there had been they would have created headlines as i'm sure you you will understand they'd have represented a very serious development uh in the whole
02:27:35 development uh in the whole anti-apartheid campaign around that tour and there weren't any such reports because there were no such syntax lord hayne this is not mike speaking it's will speaking and it's well speaking
02:27:43 speaking 30 years after the event although as you suggest a lie might be one explanation
02:27:54 one explanation might some confusion 30 years later be another one some confusion would be a very charitable description of it if i may say so mr barb because it was typical of the behavior of undercover officers as i've seen
02:28:09 of undercover officers as i've seen in in the documentation provided to me by the
02:28:10 by the the inquiry that they very rarely told the truth about what was going on i knew what was going on and i knew what was not going on
02:28:21 was not going on and that was certainly not going on so whether it's you know exaggerated in hindsight or whether it was reported at the time and i i don't know but it was a lie
02:28:35 i i don't know but it was a lie can we pick up at the bottom of the page later on at a meeting peter hayne felt that there quite rightly was a spy in their midst and there was one poor devil that mike ferguson looked down the room and said i think it's him
02:28:49 think it's him and he got thrown out and ferguson survived
02:28:50 survived bless him can we go over the page please
02:29:01 and you are recorded as saying well quite possibly the commentator
02:29:16 you you i'll stop there you say quite possibly
02:29:17 possibly at at that stage um i think now you don't have any recollection of that at all is that right yes i i don't know
02:29:29 at all is that right yes i i don't know quite know how that's come out they must have
02:29:34 have put the program together i don't mean in a malevolent way but somehow out of context because i cannot recall that incident at all none of the people who are involved can recall that incident at all
02:29:47 recall that incident at all those that are still alive and i think it was
02:29:47 it was it was manufactured frankly again to i don't know in some theatrical way but what
02:29:55 what possibly could have caused some confusion in terms of the program that we're receiving the transcript from is that there
02:30:07 is that there we were concerned about infiltrators and we did get rid of somebody uh who and i think i refer to this in my statement from claiming to be from the surrey anti-apartheid movement and claiming to be
02:30:18 be a member of the communist party that we were very suspicious of and so we stopped him coming to meetings but obviously the mike ferguson who's
02:30:31 but obviously the mike ferguson who's was playing this uco role who continued to be at the meetings clearly because he's reporting some aspects of them uh as happening uh he was still there but i don't i don't remember that uh dramatic
02:30:45 i don't remember that uh dramatic incident of anybody being thrown out of a meeting because a finger had been pointing out pointed at him so that's another example of something that was just false okay now i
02:30:56 now i the reason i hesitated earlier is i there's
02:31:00 there's a difference between the transcript i've got in the transcript we've got on the screen
02:31:04 screen can we can we just go go up further please
02:31:09 yes that's a bit we want sorry now we had um
02:31:12 had um there's a bit of the transcript that we missed out there
02:31:20 we picked we we picked up at bless him which i think you can see halfway down the screen the interviewer do you recall that then you say i do recall that yes interviewer just tell us about that
02:31:35 about that what did you do did you suspect the spy and then you say there was lots of suspicions at the time but i just took the view that what we were doing was correct and i wasn't going to be deflected by fringe sort of pressures of that kind
02:31:49 fringe sort of pressures of that kind then interviewer but you got the wrong spy and then back to the bit of the transcript we had up before where you say quite possibly yes you've explained that you don't have a recollection now of um of that happening
02:32:02 of um of that happening but you do seem when interviewed for the true spies program to have said
02:32:15 for the true spies program to have said uh at that stage that you did recall it well i think i think to be fair mr b i think
02:32:19 think since i don't recall it i'm simply telling you that honestly and nobody still alive at the time recalls it either i think if you read a fair
02:32:29 fair reading of that transcript i'm saying well well quite quite possibly and then there were a lot of um we had a lot of suspicions at the time and i i think
02:32:40 think though it's a while ago during the program i think it was put together and i'm not saying malevolently but i do not at any time say in that transcript yes that guy was you know
02:32:53 yes that guy was you know that that description by um the undercover officer was absolutely correct i don't say that do i i think what you say is is in relation to the deflected
02:33:10 to the deflected accusation you do you are recorded as saying
02:33:14 saying i do recall that yes my question to you is do you think that in the early naughties when you were interviewed you might and still have had a recollection of that happening even if it is one which is now faded away
02:33:29 is now faded away no because we were we were worried about a number of people and some of those worries were proved to be
02:33:39 be wrong i mean when you you know there's a certain paranoia develops if you are concerned about being infiltrated and uh that was what i was trying to convey i'm trying to read the transcript as fairly and and honestly as i can but for the life of me mr barr
02:33:52 of me mr barr i cannot recall that incident ever happening
02:33:55 happening and since he also claims to be number two and i didn't have a number two i rather doubt the providence or the accuracy
02:34:04 accuracy or the veracity of of that particular incident but i do say quite possibly things like that happened um but certainly not that incident uh as it is explained in those very direct terms
02:34:15 terms thank you um could we take that down now please and could we have up in its place
02:34:28 ucpi608660 so that's at tab four of the hard copy bundle
02:34:41 now lord hang this is a report on the sdst's annual general meeting which was held on the 7th of march at 1970 it's again a report of mike ferguson's and there are a
02:34:57 of mike ferguson's and there are a couple of things that i want to pick up in this report with you the first is some references to violence if we could go to page two please
02:35:03 please and look at paragraph five
02:35:13 and paragraph five reads michael braley a northern university lecturer and a middlesex cricketer gives a well-reasoned speech in which he warned delegates against the use of violence for violence sake
02:35:26 use of violence for violence sake in their demonstrations he spoke for the moderates within stst who are against all forms of violence unfortunately neither really nor any of the other
02:35:35 the other speakers could satisfactorily define violence which complicated the arguments for and against it and if holding that in mind we could go to
02:35:56 in mind we could go to paragraph eight on the next page please uh and i'm interested in the bottom of paragraph eight um where it reads despite this difference it was stressed that
02:36:08 difference it was stressed that stst was not a monolithic organization and its avowed policy was one of non-violent militant direct action if individuals or individual groups
02:36:16 groups felt that violence was called for then they must be final judges of what action was appropriate this concluded
02:36:25 concluded morning session so from those two passages we see mike ferguson um doing two things he he's first of all portraying the stst
02:36:37 portraying the stst as a group within which there were two schools of thought on violence one firmly against violence and one
02:36:46 and one a little more tolerant of it does that fairly reflect the realities of the stst i don't think so first of all mike braley of course subsequently was the england cricket captain
02:37:02 england cricket captain and you alone like john taylor the welsh rugby international during the rugby talk campaign was the only
02:37:10 only rugby international to speak up on our side
02:37:13 side and against the tour so mike braley was the only
02:37:16 the only cricketer to do so and it was very courageous of him to come to our conference in march 1970 because we're a very controversial organization and there was a lot of hostility to us
02:37:28 hostility to us and our tactics and seeking to stop that cricket tour and he was making it very clear and i cheered him on at the time
02:37:37 time and certainly would do so now again that he did not support violence because a lot of our critics try to portray us as unlawful and violent when we were
02:37:48 as unlawful and violent when we were neither and especially we were committed to non-violence which is actually um referred to in paragraph eight
02:37:57 eight but i don't i mean what what the undercover officers trying to portray there is that there was a double double side to the stop the 720 campaign there was the open advocacy which i uh
02:38:08 advocacy which i uh which i explained of a non-violent direct action and then then there were elements who are committed to violence i don't think that's true at all i don't think anybody wants to hurt any of the springboks
02:38:20 of the springboks nobody wanted to injure them during a rugby match i don't think anybody wanted to commit violence of that kind there might or might not have been
02:38:32 there might or might not have been groups seeking to get in on the act and they were
02:38:37 they were but then they could have been targeted by the police if the police were concerned about them there's a reference in one of the undercover officer reports from my recollection in my large bundle
02:38:48 recollection in my large bundle uh to um anarchists um advocating violence well you know there were no doubt um a few anarchists around who were doing that but they were not part of the stopper 72 movement and nor would um mike ferguson
02:39:03 movement and nor would um mike ferguson attending meetings in my parents living room
02:39:08 room have gained any intelligence which might have assisted the police to stop them doing
02:39:10 doing what they might or might not have intended and the the second thing that comes out of those paragraphs is that at least one speaker appears to have expressed the view
02:39:21 view that ultimately whether violence was called for was a matter for an individual to decide might it have been that a speaker at that conference
02:39:32 that conference expressed that view i don't recall that i honestly do not recall that and it would have surprised me look there were a variety of people a great spectrum of people at that conference from
02:39:44 from vickers to um to young communists i don't recall anybody advocating violence at all or anybody
02:39:56 advocating violence at all or anybody saying well look it's a matter for you if you want to do that our general view was to try and bring people
02:40:04 people of whatever opinion on progress on the progressive uh and left side and liberal side of politics
02:40:09 politics who backed the stop the 72 campaign to rally around the non-violent direct action
02:40:18 action objectives which is what people did and the um technician has very efficiently taken that document down but unfortunately i hadn't finished with it could we have ucpi608660 back please
02:40:37 at just two two more points if we go up to the paragraph above please
02:40:44 um i'm interested in the end of uh this paragraph which reads the support which been gained in such a short time should not be allowed to dissipate at the end of the spring box tour
02:40:53 tour from attacking apartheid in sport they must move into the wider field of racism both in south africa and in this country and finally the capitalist system which nurtured it
02:41:06 nurtured it now this is recorded as you speaking and you've uh addressed it in your uh witness statement and you've made abundantly clear that you were not a communist
02:41:18 communist uh at uh at any time but i am interested please and why it was that you were using the word capitalist system
02:41:27 system um in this context could you could you explain that please yes i'm very happy to because it was the this instance the british capitalist system
02:41:37 system that was trading with the apartheid regime that was sending arms to the apartheid regime enabling them to
02:41:46 them to exterminate anti-apartheid activists in nelson mandela's african national congress
02:41:47 congress terrorizing black townships and attacking african national congress freedom fighters operating in
02:42:01 freedom fighters operating in front line states in sub-saharan africa so actually what was happening was the capitalist system of the kind that was operating in britain at the time was arming the most brutal
02:42:15 racist system that the world has ever known that was the point that i was making
02:42:15 making and that we were we as a an economic system in britain and the same was true of america and most of europe with the exception
02:42:26 exception to their great credit of the scandinavian countries were trading with the apartheid regime and giving it
02:42:34 giving it all the wealth that it needed to continue to monopolize control and power and suppress the the black african majority that was what i was saying
02:42:45 i was saying i mean it's not the 72 campaign was not some sort of revolutionary organization uh it was a disarmingly non-violent uh direct action committed anti-apartheid movement
02:42:57 anti-apartheid movement i mean there are two ways of really expressing the concerns that you've just articulated one one would be to say that you wanted finally to attack the
02:43:08 the the countries and the companies which trade with the apartheid regime the other is to describe it through a more theoretical prism and talk about the capitalist system
02:43:18 system now did you did you refer to it as capitalist because it might play to
02:43:29 capitalist because it might play to some of the elements in the broad church that you were preaching to on that occasion
02:43:35 occasion no i referred to it for the reason i've explained but but let me be frank with you
02:43:38 you uh and with sir john i'm a social i'm a democratic socialist i think that capitalism run in its uh in its more extreme way
02:43:51 in its uh in its more extreme way is is designed to create a rich elite at the top
02:43:56 the top and and great impoverish impoverishment down below instead of to spread wealth and ownership more widely and to allow people to participate more equitably in the running of their economy so i want a
02:44:10 economy so i want a fairer more just economic system and i make no bones about that i was a socialist at the time i was in the young liberals
02:44:14 liberals and i remain one and if that's the discussion we want to have i'm very happy
02:44:20 happy to have it but the point i was making at the time
02:44:28 the time was that the british capitalist system was more interested in profits and in trade
02:44:30 trade than in decency and human rights and justice and non-racism because actually its trade and its supplying of arms was perpetuating apartheid
02:44:45 perpetuating apartheid entrenching it and strengthening it thank you that's very clear could we move in this document please over the page to paragraph 12.
02:45:08 uh says the conference was ended by a short address from peter hayne in which he thanked all those present for their assistance over the past months and urged them to even greater activity
02:45:19 activity during the forthcoming weeks he warned however
02:45:22 however that they must be aware of infiltrators without becoming neurotic as the stst was undoubtedly of great interest to the authorities and special branch unknown faces and strange volunteers
02:45:34 strange volunteers should be treated with suspicion the conference was then concluded i mean you've already explained in the context of the true spies transcript some elements of the
02:45:48 transcript some elements of the security concerns that you had but this type
02:45:53 type of record of how you spoke at meetings is this is not the only example is it fair to say that you preach the message of security consciousness
02:46:04 consciousness uh to the stst and indeed some of the other
02:46:06 other non-violent direct action groups you were involved in yes for one very good reason apart from others mr barr and that is that um the south african security services were infiltrating us it was a south african
02:46:17 it was a south african agent uh to my knowledge that recorded the annual general meeting of the anti-apartheid movement in october 1969 to which we referred earlier in the session
02:46:29 session and they were um trying to disrupt the stopper 720 campaign working in collaboration with british intelligence
02:46:42 intelligence uh organizations and working in collaboration uh obviously with the south african security services were so we were very concerned about the apartheid states
02:46:54 concerned about the apartheid states particularly infiltrating it and since the apartheid state security services were working hand in glove with the british security services at the time presumably also including the special branch and no doubt undercover officers such as mike ferguson and mike scott
02:47:10 mike ferguson and mike scott uh who you know a figure in this part of the inquiry we were concerned about that as well because they the south african security services had been responsible for a great deal of illegal
02:47:23 illegal violent activity and attacks on anti-apartheid activists including as i said earlier the headquarters of the anti-apartheid movement
02:47:29 movement and the headquarters in london of the african national congress yeah we were concerned about infiltration there's no question about it but it was
02:47:40 question about it but it was that as well that we were concerned about thank you could we take that document down now please and could we have ucpi five zeroes one four three nine nine up next
02:47:59 one four three nine nine up next that's tab five in your bundle sir now this is the seventh of april uh 1970
02:48:09 uh 1970 the cricket tour at that stage not quite uh being uh cancelled your campaign had a little
02:48:10 a little longer uh to run and this is a report on the london regional conference of the s t s t held in sin pancras
02:48:24 s t held in sin pancras town hall on the 5th of april
02:48:33 can we go please to paragraph five first of all
02:48:44 paragraph five it was generally agreed that the organization of stst was too small
02:48:52 small in that it did not comprehensively if we go over the page thank you cover london delegates were urged to set up local groups as soon as possible and to commence fundraising and political activities the formation of these groups should be given the widest publicity
02:49:07 given the widest publicity in an endeavor to bring the aims of the campaign to the man in the street this would best be achieved by distributing leaflets in the most appropriate areas and i've i've picked this paragraph lord hayne as a hook to hang at this point on
02:49:20 hook to hang at this point on it's right isn't it that your organization was expanding right up to the end of the campaign and the cancellation of the cricket tour
02:49:31 the cancellation of the cricket tour yes it was and and i don't see what's wrong with that trying to form more groups in different local communities to achieve our objective
02:49:40 objective in of stopping the 1970 racist cricket tour i'm not sure what could be seen as being objectionable but objectionable about that i'm not suggesting there's anything objectional about it at all
02:49:53 objectional about it at all what it did leave you though was a nice problem to have which is what do you do with all this
02:50:00 this all these committed activists who've been mobilized after the cricket tour has ended and it is it right that the answer to that was for
02:50:12 answer to that was for to keep them mobilized on a different campaign and that's how we get into the campaigns against racialism
02:50:30 into the campaigns against racialism yes in part though i specifically urged stop the 72 activists not all of whom were members of the anti-apartheid movement
02:50:30 movement which is the largest movement uh anywhere in the world here in britain to join the anti-apartheid movement and get involved in its wider activities
02:50:43 involved in its wider activities and from my recollection its membership trebled
02:50:47 trebled as a result of the stop the 720 campaign and
02:50:50 and partly during it so that was what i wanted to see i wanted to see the the sports campaign spread more generally into the wider anti-apartheid struggle against economic links against
02:51:04 links against arming south africa against for freeing nelson mandela and imposing sanctions um so yes setting up the action committee against racism was part of it but there was a very small part of it to be frank
02:51:15 part of it to be frank the wider the momentum was really carried on into the anti-apartheid movement
02:51:24 movement itself and just to complete the story of the sdst demonstrations were organized for the second of may at 1970 and went ahead outside
02:51:36 1970 and went ahead outside cricket grounds and those were essentially were they largely of a conventional nature they were there was no no match to disrupt because it hadn't happened but it was a sign of
02:51:47 it was a sign of mobilizing um activity to to campaign against the tour and when making our argument
02:52:01 making our argument and if we can have one final document up uh in relation to the stst um it's um eight six uh ucpi six zeros eight six o six it's tab nine of your bundle set
02:52:16 paragraph three please
02:52:28 thank you not an easy document to read but towards the bottom of a paragraph three this is a meeting of the national sdst committee again at 21a gwendolyn avenue
02:52:40 avenue and the report reads there could be no doubt that the next two weeks would be crucial as far as getting the tour council was concerned and the trump cards which stst had to play in connection
02:52:53 play in connection with the commonwealth games and the racial disorder which would occur in the event of the tour taking place
02:53:03 was racial disorder one of your trump cards
02:53:07 cards lord hayne no of course not but what that's a rather slanted description of what was happening and a you know a biased
02:53:21 biased if i may stay so presentation of reality if you remember from reading my book frank cousins the chair i think it was of the community relations commission which was dedicated to improving race relations in britain had called for the tour to be
02:53:35 tour to be cancelled because he was concerned about the interaction of apartheid pro-apartheid activity and pro-tour activity
02:53:47 pro-tour activity with racist groups such as the national front
02:53:50 front and nazi groups around them such as the national front attacking the black community and jeff crawford for example who's referred to in some of these documents the
02:54:03 to in some of these documents the the leader of the west indian standing conference and a keen cricket fan himself
02:54:04 himself the caribbean citizen he joined the stop the seventy tour committee and and linked our two
02:54:15 committee and and linked our two organizations together because he was concerned
02:54:19 concerned that racist elements in britain were attacking the black community as they were attacking the anti-aponte movement so um there was a concern about race relations yes indeed but it was not that the stop the
02:54:38 indeed but it was not that the stop the 72 campaign's activities had stirred up um racial disorder it was that pro-apartheid racist organizations were were actually attacking
02:54:44 attacking us as an organization demonstrating against us and also promoting their racist beliefs and on the commonwealth games
02:54:52 games the commonwealth games at that stage in proceedings was in on the point of collapse
02:54:58 collapse because african countries withdrawn the games were due to be staged in in edinburgh in july 1970 and would have taken place
02:55:10 taken place the same time as the cricket tour had gone ahead the commonwealth games faced a progressive boycott in protest against the cricket tour happening
02:55:21 the cricket tour happening so african countries withdrew initially uh
02:55:24 uh south asian countries india pakistan sri lanka withdrew caribbean countries withdrew so you'd have had an all-white commonwealth games running alongside an all-white
02:55:37 all-white racist south african cricket tour and that was a big factor and to that extent even though the wording is you know i would take issue with it is the case
02:55:49 the case that the concern about race relations for the reasons i've explained and the concerns about the future of the commonwealth games for the reasons i've explained
02:55:56 explained had escalated the issue of stopping the 70 cricketer from a an idea in the hands of a small number of us a year previously to basically an international
02:56:11 international political confrontation as well as a concern about domestic racial harmony in britain thank you and as we all know the next thing that happens is the tour is cancelled um just to
02:56:26 is cancelled um just to ask a hypothetical question if it had not been
02:56:32 not been is it fair to say that the sgst would have continued with its determined attempts
02:56:34 attempts to disrupt the matches oh yes no question about that we had all sorts of plans for example the first match which i i think we'd called a demonstration
02:56:47 i think we'd called a demonstration which we called d-day for the 6th of june
02:56:51 june demo day which 100 000 were expected in london
02:56:53 london and in addition we there were all sorts of novel tactics um planned for uh cricket matches we discovered an underground um this used underground
02:57:06 used underground tunnel of i think the bakerloo line and an air vent coming up from it into lord's cricket ground actually within the ground and planned to infiltrate hundreds and
02:57:17 and planned to infiltrate hundreds and potentially thousands of demonstrators through that avenue and and invade the pitch there was lots of things going on like that people had brought bought um mirrors to flash in the uh in the
02:57:29 mirrors to flash in the uh in the batsman's eyes some were planning to fly model aircraft off there there aren't some flat overlooking lords and things like that so there's a great deal of activity going on indeed and so um
02:57:43 indeed and so um from your point of view there was a certainty of disruption but might there also have been the risk of evincing the sort of violent reaction that we saw at swansea
02:57:54 that we saw at swansea well if uh if the stewarding of the cricket matches and the behavior of the police had been replicated from swansea
02:58:04 swansea undoubtedly they would have been that danger which is why i was anxious that that didn't happen and why for all sorts of reasons i was so pleased when we stopped the
02:58:18 i was so pleased when we stopped the tour because we're one of the very few protest movements using non-violent direct actions they've ever achieved our objectives completely and it was an enormous boost for the anti-apartheid movement i mean i think it's important to say without
02:58:34 think it's important to say without taking liberties with uh your time in this inquiry sir john that at that period
02:58:39 period the resistance to apartheid inside south africa had been closed down the entire leadership of of the african national congress was with robben island i was on robben island with nelson mandela
02:58:53 mandela activists like my parents had been driven into exile others had been tortured imprisoned arrested attacked the entire resistance had been suppressed so this campaign came at a time and achieved a victory which was very
02:59:12 and achieved a victory which was very very important for the momentum of the international anti-apartheid movement so i was thrilled when the tour was cancelled but i was also relieved because i
02:59:17 because i i didn't look forward to the the confrontations that would have undoubtedly have occurred
02:59:23 we can move now from the sgst to the young liberals as you've explained the young liberals did use
02:59:30 did use nvda and that throws up um an interesting curiosity doesn't it and that is that we have
02:59:42 and that is that we have the youth wing of a mainstream political party
02:59:47 party which is prepared to commit minor criminal offences to advance its age like what criminal offence could you be specific
02:59:59 offence could you be specific well there may be things like minor criminal damage or there might be minor public order offenses
03:00:08 offenses and that sort of thing you mean like occurred at sarah everard uh demonstration of clapham common would you describe that as a minor i i i'm afraid i have to ask you the questions and i'm
03:00:20 i have to ask you the questions and i'm just trying to understand the meaning of your question i'm trying to gauge from you um whether you accept that what was going on was that the youth wing of the liberal party
03:00:34 youth wing of the liberal party in the early 1970s did involve people who were prepared to commit violent effect non non-violent offences at the very bottom end of the scale of offending
03:00:47 offending well in that sense if you you're talking about me
03:00:48 about me because i was chair of the stop the 72 campaign and i became a very prominent young liberal as a result and i've explained my philosophy on that and i've explained how
03:00:59 how if i was committing offences at the time of the minor kind that you're describing criminal offences presumably i would have been apprehended and
03:01:10 have been apprehended and uh and arrested and i wasn't well i think i think you things like sitting down on a zebra crossing and i think at one point you were
03:01:17 were taken to that that was a year later in 1971 indeed yes um that's that's the sort of thing i'm talking about okay well i plead guilty to that because i did
03:01:28 i did and again all because of driven by a passion in the cause yes yes and in a long line of non-violent direct action some of its civil disobedience if you like that has achieved the progress that this country has seen whether on
03:01:43 this country has seen whether on votes for women or votes for everybody or
03:01:46 or rights for trade unionists or in this case advancing the anti-racist cause and really the point i was making was that this is pretty unusual for a mainstream political party isn't it it is and it did cause a lot of tension
03:02:01 it is and it did cause a lot of tension within the liberal party though i don't think that that's the focus of this uh inquiry so john no it isn't now what i want to put to you now is
03:02:14 you now is is is a paradox the paradox is that we know that the young liberals were committing some uh minor criminal offences in the course of non-violent direct action we've got quite a lot of reports in the bundle
03:02:30 reports in the bundle um about the meetings that were being reported by hn298 i'm going to if you want me to turn in any of these up i will do but i'm just going to summarize
03:02:42 summarize the sort of topics that were being discussed
03:02:44 discussed and then i'm going to take you to one report in particular that we've got um at tab 19 a meeting on the 6th of january 1972 discussing the problems of drugs
03:02:58 problems of drugs and a possible sit-in at local council chambers
03:03:02 chambers we've got at tab 20 a meeting of the 13th of january 1972 discussing homelessness we've got at tab 22 a meeting on the 1st of february
03:03:16 of february you're presenting a report with a colleague about ireland the thrust of which is a plea to end
03:03:25 end sectarianism and tab 23 we've got the national council of young liberals meeting we've got a tab 24 a meeting and discussing
03:03:36 a tab 24 a meeting and discussing in your front living room again i think that this time 94 park road low income groups old age pensioners and population control at tab 28
03:03:49 and population control at tab 28 uh the theme of the meeting appears to be
03:03:54 be pollution occasioned by motor cars and the pollution of water i could go on but i think you get the drift
03:04:01 drift what i'm not clear about is where this line of questioning is leading it's you started off with minor criminality and then you go on to talk about
03:04:15 then you go on to talk about homelessness and old age pensions and uh you know getting rid of pollution in london
03:04:19 london and so on and other cities the paradox is what's the point the paradox is this to what extent in meetings of the young liberals was non-violent direct action being discussed
03:04:32 discussed oh it was uh and there's no question about that but what's wrong with it what is wrong with non-violent direct action not fake i am not taking issue with that
03:04:43 not taking issue with that at all except that you proceeded you you gave it the label criminal law and then when i pressed you minor criminal i i am what i'm getting at is i'm trying to gauge how extensive was non-violent
03:05:00 to gauge how extensive was non-violent direct action within the young liberals well amongst the section of the young liberals you know it was i mean the honourables themselves were consisted of junior liberals are the more cons of the more um conventional kind and then the young liberals of the late 60s
03:05:12 liberals of the late 60s that are a more radical force of of of which i was part but what i what you can tell i object to about this line of questioning is when it comes to progressive radical movements whether it's
03:05:23 radical movements whether it's environmentalists today whether it's anti-racists black lives matter whether it's green peace or extinction rebellion or the anti-apartheid movement of its era
03:05:34 era we're all presented is somehow subversive or semi-criminal or objectionable or disrupting england's clean and present black clean and
03:05:45 and green and pleasant land and actually that pejorative prism through which radical politics is presented
03:05:54 presented is in my view completely unacceptable uh reprehensible and partisan and that is the sort of perspective that undercover policing
03:06:01 policing and the ideology that was driving it that's that's my major concern and and i think you know i'm not accusing you personally but i think you're reflecting that state of mind if i may say so what i'm coming to is this
03:06:14 coming to is this if we've got a group which is discussing non-violent direct action which includes some minor criminality if they don't use an undercover police
03:06:25 if they don't use an undercover police officer how else do they find out about it and stop it well you've got to decide on you know what is the point of the police here the point of the police
03:06:36 here the point of the police and i have worked with the police as a as a cabinet minister as a local mp for a quarter of a century indeed as a member of the house of lords for two years when i was secretary of state for northern ireland
03:06:49 for northern ireland i was protected by armed officers from the metropolitan police so i'm a supporter of the function of good policing in maintaining a civilized society but are you really saying that police resources were
03:07:09 that police resources were best deployed in virtually every meeting of putney young liberals sometimes you know less
03:07:12 know less than half a dozen people discussing all manner of
03:07:16 manner of of worthy issues i would think like old age pensions and uh and environmental pollution are you really saying that that's a sensible
03:07:27 that that's a sensible policy for undercover policing to to do that kind of thing because you then get into the world that undercover police officers and this is something that i'd like to return to if i may at the end of today's evidence sir sir john
03:07:42 end of today's evidence sir sir john undercover policing then gets to the point where instead of catching the racists
03:07:45 racists responsible for stephen lawrence's murder
03:07:52 murder they infiltrate the lawrence campaign and and in the family campaign so instead of dealing with um a lot of the issues of injustice in society what they're doing is in is is attending meetings of putting young liberals when no doubt
03:08:08 putting young liberals when no doubt thieves were going about putney robbing houses at the time that's what they should have been doing combating proper proper crime and drug trafficking and terrorism
03:08:21 and terrorism not harassing legitimate radical opinion thank you lauren now i said i did say i would show you one report um could we have up please ucpi six zeros eight two four zero so this is a tab 21 of your bundle
03:08:48 this is a a report on the public young liberals the meeting is the 20th of january 1972. it's at 94 park road this is a different address but i think it's right isn't it this is still your parents home they just moved yeah
03:08:59 your parents home they just moved yeah they'd moved there in the meantime yes right was all right to assume the meetings are still happening in the front room they are yes rather overused front room there are 14 people according to this report uh
03:09:09 report uh in in the front room now this is the subject of the report
03:09:25 now this is the subject of the report you can take it from me is environmental matters including a proposed assault on the battery smell
03:09:34 and we see towards the bottom of the page what i'm interested in if you could uh scroll down please
03:09:44 uh nominations were taken for the executive posts of chairman secretary treasurer and membership secretary and the following persons were elected to those positions the membership secretary goes to mike scott
03:09:54 scott and that is hn 298 an undercover police officer can you recall any of this
03:10:05 this i don't recall the name mike scott certainly
03:10:06 certainly if there was a reverend mike scott involved in the anti-apartheid movement a very respected figure but i don't recall
03:10:18 recall a name mike scott um so he must have operated under another name for the purposes of becoming if that's what he did the membership secretary and to be frank i can't remember the membership secretary's name
03:10:30 membership secretary's name all these years later and um this is of the
03:10:31 the putney branch of the young liberals we've got plenty of evidence of sds
03:10:42 we've got plenty of evidence of sds undercover officers assuming positions uh within the groups they're infiltrating but i i value your view as a experienced politician
03:10:53 view as a experienced politician about whether or not there are any particular dangers arising from an undercover police officer assuming a position within a mainstream political organization
03:11:07 political organization yes i do think that should be a royal concern to this inquiry because what were we discussing the according to this note and presumably that's that's the case
03:11:19 that's that's the case a brief discussion followed about representatives to the um the annual conference of the national young liberals perfectly democratic perfectly
03:11:30 democratic perfectly mainstream so i do think your question and i'm grateful for it invites the invites the the issue about what was an undercover policing officer doing in the youth
03:11:41 the youth uh branch of a major political party uh indeed that that underlines the point i made throughout this is a misuse of police resources
03:11:55 this is a misuse of police resources um and could we go over the page please to see who was at the meeting i'll just remind you of the date lord hayne which you'll need for the purposes of my next questions 26th of january 1972
03:12:13 26th of january 1972 joanne hayne is one of your sisters she is how old was joanne hayne on the 26th of january 1972. she was born in 1956 so she would have been
03:12:26 born in 1956 so she would have been um she would have been 15 at the time because her 16th birthday hadn't happened
03:12:38 happened sally hayne another of your siblings she was born in 1958 so she would have been 13 at the time because her birthday hadn't happened so they were young teenagers
03:12:40 teenagers do you have any concerns um putting to one side whether or not there was any justification for infiltrating the young liberals at all
03:12:53 all do you have any concerns about reporting on children i do um i'm not sure to be fair that my sisters as young
03:13:09 to be fair that my sisters as young teenagers would have seen themselves as children but i do have concerns indeed about precisely that and come up elsewhere in in this inquiry indeed would you like to articulate what those concerns might be well it it it comes to my
03:13:25 well it it it comes to my my constant theme and i hope i'm not boring
03:13:28 boring um the inquiry because that's not my intention
03:13:32 intention about disproportionate politically biased
03:13:33 biased policing yeah um and in the case of of young people these were these were school girls attending mayfield
03:13:45 school girls attending mayfield comprehensive school at the time in putney
03:13:49 putney and you know they were following their elder brother and their own wishes in in in being part of a progressive um youth organization and they've been involved in stop the
03:14:00 involved in stop the 72 activity as well um so i really don't understand why um mike scott was
03:14:14 why um mike scott was was in this meeting at all how it could be justified by his superiors and what he was doing with particularly two young women teenagers
03:14:27 two young women teenagers sorry i'm not by that it's casting any aspersions at any any of his what his behavior might have been towards my sisters because i
03:14:39 been towards my sisters because i don't recall any any um misbehavior in that respect i didn't want to to leave a smear thank you um could we take that down now please
03:14:51 i'm going to move on now to the campaign for the repeal of the immigration act um and i you've made clear that you don't recall the campaign and don't think you spoke at a meeting
03:15:04 spoke at a meeting that said the documents say you were invited
03:15:08 invited to go to and what i'd like to do is call up the document at tab 44 please which is ucpi
03:15:18 607658 please
03:15:31 thank you very much now this um lord hayne is an sds report as we can see from the stamp at the top right of the page
03:15:44 at the top right of the page about the campaign for the repeal of the immigration act as we can see from the acronym
03:15:48 acronym on the left-hand margin it's a form of report that we're familiar with it's a report about an individual and it says privacy redaction of privacy redaction
03:16:00 redaction who is an active member of the campaign for the repeal of the immigration act 1971 is employed in an administrative capacity by the british gas corporation michael street london sw6
03:16:14 michael street london sw6 and then we have his telephone number privacy and his wife privacy devote a considerable amount of time to the running and building of cria recently
03:16:26 and building of cria recently asked peter hayne of the young liberals to speak at future cria public meetings and encourage the young liberals to actively support the campaign
03:16:37 campaign privacy and privacy have previously come to our notice in connection with cria peter hayne is the subject of and then there is a reference number for the
03:16:50 the registry file relating to you and first of all in so far as you know anything about the cria was it involved in any
03:17:07 was it involved in any serious criminality i don't recall it as being
03:17:10 being or any by your earlier definition minor sort of public disorder i don't recall it but i don't recall the organization with great detail what i do recall
03:17:16 recall is a great deal of opposition to what many of us felt was a racist immigration act of 1971 brought in by the
03:17:28 act of 1971 brought in by the conservative government which was presumably what um uh what what is concerned here and i i've got two further points i i'd like your reaction on the first is you are reported
03:17:42 the first is you are reported your name appears in this report because you've been asked simply been asked to speak at a public
03:17:50 public meeting do you have any reaction to reporting you for that level of at contact thank you yes i do because this is again an example of biased bias
03:18:05 of biased bias in policing and the deployment of undercover offices if you if you have a file on you which is presumably what that reference is a special branch file was held on me at the time
03:18:16 the time um then quite gratuitously you could get in involved and it picked it sort of creates an atmosphere especially through undercover offices of some kind of murky
03:18:31 undercover offices of some kind of murky subversion going on here whereas this is a perfectly legitimate public meeting publicly advertised as far as i can tell to protest about a legitimate cause which is the operation
03:18:44 which is the operation of what a lot of people felt at the time including me was a racist form of immigration legislation so i do i do object to it and it's another
03:19:01 another uh example along a long list of biased disproportionate deployment of police undercover officers and the second final question on this document is the the husband and wife couple here appear to be
03:19:13 be reported upon for two reasons uh one their involvement in the campaign uh for the repeal of the immigration act and two because they've asked you to speak
03:19:23 speak do you have any comment on reporting them um
03:19:24 them um for asking you to speak at a public meeting well yes i do really i mean i don't know the names i don't know
03:19:37 names i don't know whether they are in themselves of interest to the to the police but if they weren't um as seems possible if not likely then they get dragged into this
03:19:47 this simply because i am a name that um uh the police have have an interest in for entirely nefarious motives in my view
03:20:00 view and and because of my anti-apartheid anti-racist activity in the main or overwhelmingly and simply because i'm invited to a meeting suddenly a police file is opened on them
03:20:12 file is opened on them it's this kind of octopus-like uh form of activity that really drags the police and undercover policing in particular undercover offices
03:20:24 undercover offices into areas which i think are completely illegitimate we get some we get a part of an answer to the question you posed a moment ago at paragraph four it says privacy and privacy have previously come to our notice in connection
03:20:38 connection with c-r-i-a so it appears that was our only previous connection as far as we can tell from this report but again
03:20:46 but again what is wrong with an organization campaigning against an immigration legislation you might or might not agree with them you or i might not or might agree with them but
03:21:00 them but why are the police interested in them i mean that's the question i have continuously um there's an a evidence i think given to
03:21:09 to this inquiry earlier on reported in the media
03:21:10 media of um of an undercover officer involved in the um attending meetings of the
03:21:21 the of the women's liberation organization around this kind of time um between 1971 and 73. her undercover name was sandra and and she told the inquiry i think on the 18th of may
03:21:31 of may i could have been doing much more valuable things with my time she attended meetings where there are two or three activists there but then she said listen i think it's really important
03:21:40 important that there was a very different view towards women's the moon the women's movement then compared to today i'm quoting um and she said i don't think that
03:21:51 think that her work really yielded any good intelligence and i suspect this was true yeah again attending meetings of putney young liberals you know discussing environmental
03:22:03 you know discussing environmental pollution or meetings of the campaign for
03:22:04 for repeal of the immigration act or meetings of the women's liberation organization what on earth are undercover officers doing it's a precious
03:22:16 precious resource of great skill i've worked with undercover officers in my time in in northern ireland combating terrorism and paramilitary violence and bombings and assassinations and they're brave people
03:22:27 and they're brave people but what on earth are they doing in involving this kind of organizat these kinds of organizations about arguments about racism in immigration or women's rights or environmental pollution
03:22:40 or environmental pollution thank you lord haynes so would that be a convenient moment to break for lunch yes it would before we do may i just raise
03:22:47 raise two matters with lord hane um first of all can i explain to you mr barr's
03:22:57 barr's task it is not really to elicit your evidence
03:23:00 evidence and to put it to a proper test where it's necessary but he is also told by representatives of other core participants including the police
03:23:14 what topics they would like raised with you
03:23:17 you consequently some of the time it rather sounds as if he's advancing the line that the inquiry has that's a misconception i'm glad to hear it
03:23:30 it i'm second to this i take this opportunity to ask with apologies for spoiling your lunch break for you to um check briefly through the documents
03:23:41 check briefly through the documents produced by mike ferguson about stop the 70s
03:23:42 70s tour you
03:23:52 have frequently and vehemently disputed the assertion made on the true spies program that it was ever suggested that tax be put
03:23:57 put on the pitch at a rugby match
03:24:06 there is i think no written record of any such suggestion um the suggestion comes from a man who is also now
03:24:18 is also now dead wolf on a program where he was i think
03:24:19 think trying to put the sds in a good light and tell it as entertainingly as it could be for the benefit of the television program and therefore we simply do not have
03:24:35 and therefore we simply do not have any reliable first-hand evidence about what mike ferguson reported and did beyond the written reports that we have
03:24:46 we have and i i wanted to ask you if i may
03:24:52 briefly to go over again the written reporting that is produced and to identify in it those bits which you say
03:24:58 you say are inaccurate i'll hopefully do that i you have i think already done it but i want to ensure that i've got it right
03:25:09 want to ensure that i've got it right thank you thank you very much um i think it's now five past uh one so we'll break until five past two and mr fernandez will announce that
03:25:21 we will now take a break for lunch may remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms the time is now 105 pm so we shall resume at 205 pm thank you
03:26:03 you