Lord Peter Hain, former Cabinet Minister and anti-apartheid activist, testifies about undercover police infiltration of the Anti-Apartheid Movement and Anti-Nazi League from 1970s-1990s. He challenges police characterizations of these movements and reveals he was under surveillance even as an elected MP and Cabinet Minister.
00:19:32 good afternoon everyone and welcome to the afternoon session of today's evidential hearings for those in the virtual hearing room please remember to turn off both your camera and microphone
00:19:44 camera and microphone i will now hand over to the chairman sir john mitting to continue proceedings chairman
00:19:49 chairman thank you as at the beginning of every live eventual session a recording is going to be played
00:20:01 i am conducting this inquiry under a statute
00:20:02 statute the inquiries act which gives me the power to make orders regulating the conduct of the inquiry including its hearings
00:20:13 including its hearings in the exercise of that power i have made a number of orders which
00:20:24 i have made a number of orders which affect what you may and may not do in the hearing rooms and after you leave them breach of any of the orders is a serious matter and may have serious consequences for you
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00:20:49 as if it had been a contempt of that court if satisfied that a breach has occurred and merits the imposition of a penalty
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00:21:18 evidence is going to be given live over screens in the hearing rooms it is strictly prohibited to photograph or record what is shown on the screens or to record what is said by witness or anyone else in the hearing rooms
00:21:33 or anyone else in the hearing rooms you may bring your mobile telephone into the hearing rooms but you may not use it for any of those purposes
00:21:40 purposes you may use it silently for any other purpose
00:21:42 purpose in particular you may transmit your account of what you have seen and heard in a hearing room to any other person but only once at least 10 minutes
00:21:56 but only once at least 10 minutes have elapsed since the event which you are describing took place
00:22:02 this restriction has a purpose in the course of the inquiry i have made orders prohibiting the public disclosure of information for example about the identity of a person for a variety of reasons
00:22:16 variety of reasons these orders must be upheld it is inevitable but whether by accident or design information which i have ordered should not be publicly disclosed
00:22:28 not be publicly disclosed will sometimes be disclosed in a hearing if and when that happens i will immediately suspend the hearing and make an order prohibiting further disclosure of the information outside the hearing rooms
00:22:43 information outside the hearing rooms the consequence will be that no further disclosure of that information may be made by mobile telephone or other portable electronic device from within the hearing room or by any means outside it
00:22:58 or by any means outside it i am sorry if you find this message alarming it is not intended to be its purpose is simply to ensure that everyone knows the rules which must
00:23:11 everyone knows the rules which must apply if i am to hear the evidence which i need to enable me to get to the truth about undercover policing you as members of the public are entitled to hear the same public evidence as i will hear and to reach your own conclusions about it
00:23:25 it the inquiry team will do their best to ensure that you can if you have any doubt about the terms of this message or what you may or may not do
00:23:35 do you should not hesitate to ask one of them
00:23:38 them and with my help if necessary they will provide you with the answer
00:23:48 lord hayne i understand that arrangements have been made for the task that i asked you to perform over lunch to be done slightly greater leisure uh and the answer to be given to me next week i'm perfectly happy with that i'm very grateful thank you mr barr
00:24:00 mr barr thank you sir lord hane
00:24:04 lord hane can we focus for a moment on the telephone line to your parents addresses uh you told us this morning that it served as the telephone number for the stst
00:24:22 stst does it also follow that it was used uh for some of the other campaigns based from
00:24:28 from the front room of your parents flat and then your parents house yes indeed and
00:24:33 and i'd understood your evidence to be that you suspected that it was tapped yes and so would it follow that you were very careful what was said uh over the telephone
00:24:42 telephone yes
00:24:43 yes uh but that you would still use it yes and my mother was particularly careful about it having experienced surveillance by the south african security services in pretoria under
00:24:57 security services in pretoria under apartheid including our telephone being tapped
00:25:05 tapped thank you could we have up please ucpi five zeros three four o nine one at page 44.
00:25:26 and this is a paragraph from your witness statement lord hane and about
00:25:32 and about it's your comment on michael scott's the uco michael scott's evidence that he had occasion to telephone your home and spoke to your mother and his written account is that she told
00:25:51 and his written account is that she told him that if you were interested in doing something positive you should go forth with to an address which was ernest rodka's
00:25:53 rodka's home address and your reaction uh was um to say that there's no way she would have alerted anyone
00:26:02 anyone about that protest and you as you've just explained because of her experiences in particular in south africa i just want to explore with you this
00:26:21 what 298 statement says doesn't in fact disclose the plan does it
00:26:29 not explicitly no and so may there be room for 298 having spoken to your mother as he recalls and having a somewhat
00:26:44 and having a somewhat coded conversation um which gave nothing away it did mean uh that uh he went made his way to ernest rodka's address and then found out the details of what was planned
00:27:00 of what was planned i find that so unlikely as to be inconceivable my mother was incredibly careful
00:27:05 careful about what she said on
00:27:08 on the phone and since both my parents and us as a family had lived
00:27:16 lived uh under apartheid and under constant surveillance by the apartheid police with special branch cars parked at the bottom of our drive following us where ever we went including me to school occasionally on my bike
00:27:32 occasionally on my bike she was ultra careful to the point of almost being too careful and
00:27:33 and i find it
00:27:37 i find it astonishing that this statement is being made and and another example where an undercover officer is concealing the truth or not telling the truth
00:27:51 not telling the truth for what reason i'm not sure except that maybe he had um a reason to give to being at
00:27:57 at the meeting that he landed up in
00:28:08 the meeting that he landed up in but her asking him to go to rumbled road gives nothing away does it no it doesn't but i think she would have known about the star and garter protests which is what this is about um the protest over the england team going to south africa
00:28:21 england team going to south africa and staying at the star and go to gaza hotel in richmond in a protest that was planned
00:28:28 planned against that i think you heard something about this yesterday from both christophel gurney and jonathan rosenhair who participated in it so she would she would have known that that was happening as as i did and helped plan it but uh
00:28:43 and helped plan it but uh although i didn't take part um
00:28:46 um for that reason it just seems to me to be
00:28:47 be fantasy that um she would have said over an open telephone line knowing that this was going on for him to get involved
00:28:59 for him to get involved thank you i'm going to move now to um much later in the 1970s um we're going we're about to move on to the anti-nazi league
00:29:10 on to the anti-nazi league could i just um before we do that may i if i can just in a sense complete the anti-apartheid point there's a couple of extra points because
00:29:17 because there were there was a in in my statement i referred to a report from police documents about undercover policing
00:29:28 policing uh
00:29:29 uh not in the public domain in the public domain but not in front of the inquiry as i understand it where there was an undercover officer who said the anti-apartheid movement is stalinist controlled
00:29:43 stalinist controlled which openly supports the african national congress that's the anc that nelson mandela was became
00:29:50 became president of the country representing and a number of labour mps are active in the aam
00:29:56 the aam and this report talking about it being a stalinist organization which it decidedly wasn't it had archbishops as its president and the former
00:30:11 the former um uh leader of the liberal party now lord uh david steele um
00:30:12 um a date from 1993 and
00:30:16 and this if the security services thinking in 1993 three years after nelson mandela was
00:30:23 was released partly because of the anti-apartheid movement's campaigning and just a year before he took over as president and while he was negotiating involved in negotiations to achieve that
00:30:36 involved in negotiations to achieve that if that is the kind of thinking involved uh
00:30:39 uh in undercover policing as i submitted was in respect of the anti-apartheid movement um then we have a particular ideology of undercover policing which frankly cannot be defended
00:30:52 frankly cannot be defended and there are two other incidents i haven't mentioned um so far in my my evidence to this inquiry which underline this i've talked about bias in
00:31:03 bias in in the reaction of the of
00:31:04 of of policing generally undercover policing in particular and the security services to targeting the anti-apartheid movement but not apartheid forces um
00:31:15 movement but not apartheid forces um bombing officers in london of the a am and the anc but there were two were two other incidents
00:31:28 other incidents in 1970 they did not investigate that's to say the british police or the um security services will seem interested in finding out who in the south african security services murdered the journalist keith wallins
00:31:38 wallins keith wallace who was about to reveal south african security service operations in london and why didn't they show any interest in investigating the letter bomb sent to me in june 1972
00:31:49 letter bomb sent to me in june 1972 at the four park road putney home of that i was living in my parents home then a sense of the same type sent to anti-apartheid leaders right across the world which killed them
00:32:01 world which killed them fortunately there was a trigger mechanism fault in the one sent to me or otherwise i wouldn't be giving evidence to this inquiry we were told by scotland yeah that it
00:32:12 we were told by scotland yeah that it could have blown up the house could have blown me and my family up but they never investigated it they never tried to find out which south african agent had sent it to me
00:32:25 sent it to me and so that coupled with um this quote i've just mentioned you know i do hope the inquiry looks carefully at the ideology
00:32:31 ideology of underground um uh
00:32:36 uh of underground offices that was driving this biased policing and there's one other matter that um i think you know that i wish to bring up which is relevant to this point and that is um
00:32:45 um in in addition to my written statement i've i've only recently been made aware of an important hitherto undisclosed
00:32:56 of an important hitherto undisclosed police record that described me as a south african terrorist a description given by undercover officer
00:33:02 officer mark kennedy uh who was formed a close relationship with the environmental activist kate wilson who by the way went to school with my children in in putney
00:33:17 in in putney and it was documented this statement um that he made at the national police order intelligence unit and the records date from november 2003 where he's calling me a south african terrorist
00:33:32 terrorist at a time when i was a member of the british cabinet secretary of state for wales the leader of the house of commons and the lord privy seal and a member of her majesty's privy
00:33:46 and a member of her majesty's privy councillor i mean what is it in the dna of undercover policing that allows its offices to get such a biased and reactionary view of the world that they can make these kind of biased and completely uh
00:33:58 uh unrepresentative and and
00:34:04 and and libelous and defamatory statements about me in this instance with no doubt about others
00:34:06 others thank you lord hane and in transform of the inquiry's work we'll be hearing from mark kennedy and we'll be able to explore that particular report with him
00:34:21 explore that particular report with him in the meantime as i said we're going in the chronology to the late 1970s to the formation of the anti-nazi league and uh
00:34:32 and uh just before we start that to set the scene
00:34:35 scene as it were it's right isn't it that the anti-nazi league was formed following the event that came to be known as the battle of louisiana
00:34:46 known as the battle of louisiana it was though it was also against a background of the national front pushing the liberal party into fourth position
00:34:57 liberal party into fourth position in parliamentary by-elections and in the greater london council elections in may 1970
00:34:58 1970 and i amongst others who formed the anti-nazi league was very very worried about the rise of an overtly nazi
00:35:09 about the rise of an overtly nazi organization uh the national front deeply racist and fascist in its operations and
00:35:14 and and its leaders worshiping nazi uh figures and nazi ideology and yet they were doing so well in elections and that was
00:35:28 that was part of the background the formation of the anti-nazi league and also yes the lewisham
00:35:29 lewisham events were too because there's a feeling that we had to do things in combating the national front in a different way from what had happened in leadership
00:35:41 from what had happened in leadership when there was a great deal of violence i'm going to ask the team to display a news report from the battle of lewisham
00:35:54 battle of lewisham so you will be reminded of the level of public
00:35:56 public disorder
00:35:57 disorder and the events on the day before we continue could we have please doc 043
00:36:12 uh
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00:36:50 my
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00:37:14 wow
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00:37:28 what's your first night
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00:37:46 uh
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00:37:56 yes [Music]
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00:38:47 yeah oh
00:39:01 [Music] conflict
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00:39:35 hey [Applause] [Music]
00:39:44 by the fleece
00:40:27 thank you if that could be taken down please
00:40:34 uh lord hane obviously some disturbing scenes there and disturbing at a number of levels perhaps first of all we see the national front marching
00:40:46 marching through as it turned out deptford and
00:40:52 and i think in your witness statement you describe it as swaggering through
00:40:56 through areas like this where they are liable
00:40:57 liable to stoke tensions and
00:41:01 and as i understand it the concern is if they were allowed to do that things would spiral out of control and ultimately we all know where that can lead
00:41:14 where that can lead uh
00:41:14 uh is that yes indeed um not lead only to the kind of um terrible scenes we saw in that footage but also
00:41:25 but also attacks on black citizens in deptford
00:41:37 attacks on black citizens in deptford and elsewhere wherever they operated or marched violence would follow their activities as as night follows day and so there was a a real concern about their power and their strength at that time not only expressed in elections
00:41:50 expressed in elections conventional parliamentary and local council elections but also in the uh attacks that that followed their activity from x-men put through letterboxes to physical beatings up to um to racist
00:42:05 physical beatings up to um to racist murders that would always follow their activity that was our concern at the other side of the coin though is the the concern at another level is the violence and the public disorder on that occasion and
00:42:22 occasion and what is noteworthy about that occasion is it was violence that was caused by
00:42:26 caused by anti-fascists attacking the demonstration and then later on serious disturbances between anti-fascists protesters and the police i mean that is a fair comment isn't it
00:42:38 isn't it it's
00:42:43 it's fair up to a point but the police were also allowing the national front to march
00:42:44 march as you could see in that footage they were protecting them and and permitting them to
00:42:50 them to as i
00:42:55 as i i think correctly describe it swagger through those predominantly black inhabited areas threatening them and
00:42:59 and violence followed those threats always for weeks and months afterwards so yes i i accept that's what happened
00:43:12 yes i i accept that's what happened but i also accept that that was inflamed by the way that the police seem to be protecting the national front on that occasion and i cannot see why the police should be protecting
00:43:26 why the police should be protecting a group whose a vowed purpose is to stir up and promote racial hatred which is now an offence brought in by our government the government in which i serve but wasn't then
00:43:35 then i don't know what they were doing to a group that's nazi
00:43:38 nazi racist and fascists so that inflamed the situation which is not to justify at all because i do not and i would not any attacks on on the police or the
00:43:50 any attacks on on the police or the injury to that officer we still being carried away and so it's fair to say isn't it that the anl was born at a time of high
00:44:00 high racial tension and in an atmosphere where there had been serious public disorder and violence
00:44:11 violence yes and the purpose of as i mentioned earlier was to try a different to tread a different path to try and confront the national front
00:44:22 confront the national front in a way that was successful and promoted anti-racist ideas and destroyed theirs but also didn't result in the kind of uh violence that happened at lewisham
00:44:37 violence that happened at lewisham and to now explore the nature of the anl a little bit you tell us that its structure was in fact similar to that of the st
00:44:47 the st st in that it had a national committee but otherwise was rather loosely organized
00:44:55 organized yes in the sense that there were local anti-nazi league groups there was no central membership list there were all sorts of groups of
00:45:00 of connected
00:45:06 connected a l anti-nazi league components such as vegetarians vegetarians against the nazis minors against the nazis teachers against the nazis skateboarders against the nazis
00:45:22 the nazis students against the nazis who were all organized in their own areas their own communities their own professions but they were not under some central anti-nazi league command and control structure and in that sense it was very similar to the stop the 72
00:45:37 similar to the stop the 72 movement but they mobilized in their own areas and of course we were also allied to rock against racism an analogous group that had had promoted rock music gigs and events around the country
00:45:48 country to draw an audience in to hear an anti-racist message from some of their favorite
00:45:56 favorite bands whether these were national with a national profile or a local one uh the aim of the anl if i've understood it correctly was to confront
00:46:08 it correctly was to confront challenge and prevent the far right especially the national front organizing or having a platform yes
00:46:19 yes yes and so when they stood in elections as they did we put out leaflets and we campaigned against them parliamentary by-elections or local elections
00:46:25 elections when they tried to organize a an event of the lewisham type then we mobilized to try and stop them when they
00:46:37 when they tried organized meetings to promote their racist filth we did the same but at the same time it was a very imaginative campaign because there was a worrying rise in
00:46:50 worrying rise in in youth sort of rather trendy uh tendency amongst working class youngsters often without hope of a job at that time or a future and particularly the skin head
00:47:03 and particularly the skin head skinhead phenomenon at that time of doc martin
00:47:07 martin of doc martin booted young
00:47:08 young often working class labs who supported nazi regali regalia and many of whom uh joined the national front and we were very worried about the spread of of racist and and nazi
00:47:24 the spread of of racist and and nazi ideas amongst young people particularly working class young people and we thought that if we could promote um carnivals against the nazis local music events against the nazis and and try to
00:47:39 events against the nazis and and try to get them to come and hear some of their their favorite punk bands because punk music was a big uh trend at the time and a lot of those very same youngsters were followers of those punk bands and we got them to play on our platforms
00:47:52 on our platforms rock against racism anti-nazi league platforms to encourage them to hear a different message and and many of them did and that whole phenomenon of skinhead nazism died away
00:48:07 died away and i i've even met one of one of those who was a member of the national front who got so persuaded by our message that he joined the anti-nazi league and the organization was avowedly non-violent
00:48:19 non-violent it was a validly non-violent yes
00:48:24 yes but it was also determined to ensure by physically mobilizing and being there that if they tried to repeat at deptford
00:48:34 deptford and swagger through and inflict hatred and spread violence amongst local muslim or black communities black british or muslim british citizens or jewish citizens because they were attacking jewish citizens as well
00:48:52 attacking jewish citizens as well then our objective was to defend those communities and stand in between these marauding fascist uh forces and and those communities so we would physically do that
00:49:03 physically do that as well as um as a way operating in these other more imaginative ways
00:49:05 ways and rather like the stop the 70 tour very very upfront in public about what you were going to do and why you were going to do it yes
00:49:17 going to do it yes yes there was no no secret about it it was not a
00:49:20 was not a conspiratorial subversive organization in any sense
00:49:25 but perhaps the two differences here first of all the capacity for violence on the far right
00:49:36 on the far right um was greater than that of even the most
00:49:37 most irate uh rugby fan
00:49:48 irate uh rugby fan indeed it was of a completely different order this was serious organized sometimes almost paramilitary violence
00:49:52 violence inflicted or attempt to be inflicted on black muslim or jewish citizens and as we've seen from the footage from the battle of lewisham those
00:50:03 those in amongst the ranks of the anti-fascists
00:50:15 anti-fascists included very many who are not averse to getting involved in violence themselves whatever the house line well
00:50:18 well sorry what do you mean whatever the health line i'm saying i'm not taking issue at all with the fact that anl was a fouledly
00:50:29 with the fact that anl was a fouledly non-violent but i'm saying that there were people amongst the anti-fascist movement
00:50:33 movement who as they showed at lewisham were not averse to participating in violence well yes in the sense that i mentioned in my statement for example that um a protest we organized against the
00:50:47 a protest we organized against the national front uh in the ilford north by-election in uh in the early part of 1978 we had organized and agreed with the police in advance not least because it was in the middle of a parliamentary by-election
00:51:01 of a parliamentary by-election to organize an anti-nazi league demonstration and we had negotiated with the police and it was all going fine and then a group of maoists
00:51:13 and then a group of maoists on a on a uh an open platformed truck
00:51:14 truck came in from behind us and drove straight through and did confront the police and violence broke out as a result so there was always a danger that um a
00:51:29 there was always a danger that um a group like that that was not part of the anti-nazi league in this case these mouse would create um trouble but our intention was to stop the national front controlling an area which was which is
00:51:41 controlling an area which was which is what they tried to do and what on that occasion they they certainly sought to do and we prevented them doing
00:51:53 prevented them doing i'm going to read a passage from your book outside in lord hane it's at page 119
00:51:56 page 119 and it's
00:51:57 and it's about
00:51:58 about the
00:51:59 the controversy that arises from the line that the anl was taking i'm going to start from the last paragraph at the bottom of that page
00:52:11 paragraph at the bottom of that page wherever the national front tried to demonstrate or leaflet they were opposed by the anl and also denied platforms to spread their hate
00:52:26 spread their hate sorry just page 199 119 i'm sorry i'm sorry
00:52:27 sorry apologies for interrupting
00:52:37 yep this confrontation strategy was highly controversial a denial of free speech critics argued sometimes so by no means always it resulted in violent clashes
00:52:51 resulted in violent clashes the most terrible when the anl activist blair peach was killed by a police officer in southfall west london in april
00:53:01 april 1979 i attracted some criticism for the policy of confrontation even though when i was present or able to do so i always use my influence to urge restraint
00:53:13 urge restraint our position was that we would mass to prevent the national front swaggering through black or jewish communities and causing violence as a result it was up to the police or local councils to
00:53:25 to the police or local councils to prevent the national front marching and meeting then there would be no opportunity for confrontations either with opposing anl demonstrators or with local residents fearful of the presence of nazis in
00:53:36 fearful of the presence of nazis in their neighborhoods lessons had been drawn from when the black shirts led by oswald mosley and targeting jewish communities were physically stocked by
00:53:52 communities were physically stocked by left-wing activists in cable street in london's east end in october 1936
00:54:00 1936 can we take it from that passage lord hey that despite best efforts uh to prevent and discourage violence the atmosphere in which you were operating was such that on occasions it broke out
00:54:14 that on occasions it broke out yes i've been perfectly frank about that the issue that i would put before you however is
00:54:20 is what should be done should the national front just continue to be allowed to march unchecked or should
00:54:30 or should somebody try to do something about it as we did and was done in 1936. now in 1936 mosley's black shirts were attacking
00:54:41 attacking jewish communities very predominant in that part of east london in the modern age it's been black or muslim communities that the national front of targeted who else was protecting uh so i i accept that um given the
00:54:56 uh so i i accept that um given the national front or a violent organization uh and
00:54:58 uh and make no were and make made no secret about it the violent methods the many of their leaders and and and members having been convicted for
00:55:09 and members having been convicted for violent acts and acts of racial hatred yes there was a danger that um something bad might happen though we would try to prevent it but what was the alternative did we just allow them to continue to to to march uh should those who oppose
00:55:25 to to march uh should those who oppose mosley's black shirts have allowed him to
00:55:29 to continue to march in 1936 when hitler was on the march in in nazi germany and was running nazir germany at the time
00:55:39 time when mosley's black shirts were openly allied with the the nazis in germany i mean there was a particular historic precedent which i think justifies
00:55:48 justifies the uh strategy that the anti-nazi league adopted well when i said earlier in one of my questions we all know where that led i was meaning rather further than attacks uh on individual people
00:56:01 uh on individual people in totalitarian governments yes that point is completely accepted lord hayne
00:56:07 hayne um and i see in your book you were positing that these were demonstrations in your opinion ought to have been banned anyway
00:56:20 banned anyway but um they weren't banned they went ahead there was counter protest uh inevitably and
00:56:26 and for the purposes of this inquiry where that takes us doesn't it is that the police had a difficult public order challenge to meet
00:56:39 yes um i accept that but if the corroboree of
00:56:50 i accept that but if the corroboree of that is that they should infiltrate the anti-nazi league as they clearly did with undercover offices rather than target the racist groups like the national front and other nazi groups then i don't agree with that at all um i think
00:56:58 think again the police found themselves in targeting the anti-nazi league on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of the argument would you
00:57:08 would you sorry
00:57:10 sorry i didn't know you know thank you so so my my my
00:57:16 my my my answer to your question is
00:57:17 is the police and undercover officer policing in general and i'll come back to this at the end if i may in any
00:57:28 to this at the end if i may in any concluding comments that judge meeting might permit me to make that
00:57:32 that it's a question of what is the ideology of undercover officer policing in in this respect there's also the question of what is legitimate and
00:57:45 the question of what is legitimate and what is not legitimate now i have my own strong views on that as i've already indicated i think some undercover officer
00:57:51 officer uh policing is not only legitimate it's absolutely essential for the peace and security of all of us to stop jihadi bombers or in past years ira bombers for instance um but
00:58:01 but infiltrating the stop the 72 campaign uh fighting apartheid or infiltrating the anti-nazi leagues seem seeking to stop nazism schmidt in britain i don't think that's legitimate
00:58:14 think that's legitimate you would accept would you that the police would want the best intelligence that they could obtain about the likelihood of public disorder at
00:58:26 at demonstrations and counter demonstrations involving the far-right and anti-nazis well yes and and indeed the anti-nazi league uh
00:58:37 league uh liaised with the police when we knew that
00:58:41 that a national front demonstration was going to happen somewhere as a ilford north for example and elsewhere we sought to agree
00:58:50 agree arrangements with the police often that wasn't possible because the police seemed determined to allow the nazis to march
00:58:57 march which was where the root of the problem arose
00:58:59 arose and
00:59:01 and therefore there was there was a lack of confidence on the part of the anti-nazi league including myself not in policing as such
00:59:12 not in policing as such it goes without saying i've worked with the police and see their role as vital but with the a form of policing that is protecting nazis groups and finds itself in doing so um
00:59:23 um actually
00:59:28 actually opposing the anti-nazi league i i cannot see how anybody can really defend that and yet that was what was happening the police view at the time appears to have beaten that an undercover officer placed in a group like the socialist workers party
00:59:39 like the socialist workers party and and reporting on the anti-nazi league could obtain timely accurate intelligence about the intentions of
00:59:50 of a l
00:59:52 a l groups branches and so forth which was helpful to the appropriate allocation of resources to public order policing
01:00:05 public order policing well i don't accept that if the police have a concern about how to concern about the socialist workers party either then or now then they would presumably take what steps they felt were necessary to
01:00:19 they felt were necessary to um keep an eye on them but what i don't accept you know the anti-nazi league like the stop the 72 campaign we had the actress the jewish actress miriam carlin on our steering committee we had holocaust survivors actual holocaust
01:00:34 holocaust survivors actual holocaust survivors had been in nazi concentration camps speaking on our platforms we had chris senior christians we had all sorts of people of some left-wing politics some liberal politics some center politics some no
01:00:52 politics some center politics some no political affiliations right across the spectrum why were the police spying on us
01:00:57 us if they felt there were some particular groups that they were concerned about might
01:01:00 might in some way exploit the situation well then keep an eye on those groups don't keep don't um use it as an excuse to spy on the anterior plant on the anti-nazi league or for that matter the anti-apartheid movement
01:01:14 anti-apartheid movement which should not have been their purpose their purpose should have been combating racism and nazism and its menacing rise at that time
01:01:25 can we look please at some of the specific reports can we start with the one at tab 48 that's ucpi five zeros eleven six seven three
01:01:49 and this is a 1978 report lord hayne and it's um about
01:01:59 about a rally at an intention on the behalf of the national front to hold a rally uh on the 27th of april at islington town hall
01:02:06 town hall and at paragraph three it reads the anti-nazi league which operates from promises at redacted is fully aware of the above event and its leading members that is to say
01:02:18 leading members that is to say redaction peter hayne ernie roberts redaction and redaction are already drawing up plans to cause disruption and a confrontation situation outside the town hall
01:02:32 town hall in the hope that the rally will be prevented
01:02:33 prevented from taking place uh in your witness statement lord hey and you you take issue with that description what is it that you find problematic
01:02:47 what is it that you find problematic well we were not drawing up plans to cause disruption i mean that's a pejorative way of expressing anti-racist activity which i think frankly is typical and runs through undercover
01:03:01 typical and runs through undercover policing as i say it said earlier like it's like it's in its dna what we were hoping to do is
01:03:04 do is ensure that the national front were not able to hold that event a mass rally designed as in the past and always to intimidate local black muslim and jewish citizens that was their their
01:03:19 was their their that was the razor on debts that was what they were about and spread their nazi ideas we didn't want it to take place we didn't want that to happen we didn't want those important british citizens in our in our society to feel intimidated by the
01:03:33 society to feel intimidated by the national front which if they'd organized freely would have happened and that's why we wanted to prevent it taking place rather than to plan disruption uh and it's interesting because it's
01:03:44 uh and it's interesting because it's seen through a prison where we are the bad guys
01:03:46 bad guys and the racists in the nazis are not and i cannot accept that as a legitimate
01:03:58 and i cannot accept that as a legitimate objective of of policing at that time so your interpretation relies on a to distinguish your wish to disrupt the national front you are distinguishing from causing disruption
01:04:10 disruption what i'm i'm saying is that we wanted to stop them
01:04:17 stop them being able to do what they intended to do which is to attack and spread racist
01:04:18 racist ideas in local communities they didn't choose these they didn't demonstrate in mayfair
01:04:26 mayfair they didn't demonstrate in uh you know leafy suburbs in surrey or sussex they demonstrated in areas where there were black and ethnic
01:04:37 where there were black and ethnic minorities and jewish citizens and they attacked synagogues and they attacked mosques
01:04:39 mosques and they attacked centers where there were black gospel uh church events and so on and
01:04:48 and that's that's the way they operated and so i think we were right to oppose them i think the police should have been on our side in opposing them and not protecting them instead of which they were putting under clever officers
01:05:03 were putting under clever officers to um to make these kind of pejorative reports
01:05:05 reports thank you could you take that down please and could we have up in instead the document which is at tab 50. that's ucpi five zeroes eleven eight eight seven
01:05:22 could we have paragraph four please
01:05:30 this is a report from the 15th of march 1978
01:05:37 1978 and paragraph four reads the political line of the anti-nazi league is much broader than that of the socialist workers party the anl for example has no
01:05:51 workers party the anl for example has no line with regard to immigration controls and is relatively non-sectarian in its attitude welcoming support from many quarters
01:05:53 quarters just stopping there is that a fair reflection of the broad church that was the anti-nazi league
01:06:06 church that was the anti-nazi league it is a fair reflection it's fair to say um and i'm pleased to see it unusually accurate
01:06:12 accurate thank you could we take that down please and could we look at the document which is a tab 62 ucpi five zeroes one six five seven nine
01:06:30 this is a report dated the 31st of march 1981
01:06:39 1981 and it is reporting on the anti-nazi league's 1981 national
01:06:40 national conference can we turn please to page nine which is um
01:06:49 um a page from the conference declaration i know you've already touched upon this lord hayne but it it might well be a good idea to see it in print under the heading violence at two if we
01:07:07 under the heading violence at two if we could that's it thank you very much the second paragraph uh underneath that heading
01:07:08 heading reads
01:07:14 reads there is still a lethargy in some areas in responding to racist attacks every time an attack occurs a l supporters should immediately be available to offer assistance
01:07:26 assistance this may mean financial assistance with collections among workmates neighbours and on the streets it may entail physical support possibly sleeping in or resisting the culprits
01:07:37 resisting the culprits legal assistance may be required or it may be necessary to draw attention to those police who are unhelpful or racist certainly racist and other nazi violence
01:07:48 certainly racist and other nazi violence should be publicized in leaflets and the press to isolate those responsible where black people are involved in establishing self-defense organizations every possible assistance should be
01:08:04 every possible assistance should be afforded i think it says offered um some time black people should be encouraged at the same time black people should be encouraged to join the anl in engaging in defense activity it is important to remember two things
01:08:16 important to remember two things firstly all activity should be located within the general framework of going on the offensive against the nazis
01:08:29 the offensive against the nazis isolating them publicly and developing mass opposition on the streets secondly
01:08:34 secondly tit for tat exercises should be avoided as they are rarely effective often increase the spiral of violence and always make it more difficult to
01:08:45 and always make it more difficult to wage open public activity with with mass mobilization stopping there picking up three points the last first
01:08:57 the last first we appear here to see written confirmation that the a l is expressly against tit for tat violence exactly
01:09:04 exactly and we see also
01:09:08 also that it is advocating a very wide range of non-violent ways of supporting
01:09:22 ways of supporting the victims of racism exactly
01:09:24 exactly and thirdly does these two paragraphs taken together fairly represent the
01:09:36 the n a n l response to violence from the far right
01:09:42 far right yes and i'm grateful that you've um read them out because they are they're quoting from from a conference document and they are exactly
01:09:48 exactly as i um
01:09:52 as i um believed in the a l and recollects its uh its agenda can we take that down please
01:09:59 and can we have up next at mps-0726-913
01:10:16 thank you and can we go to page three
01:10:24 sorry maybe
01:10:28 maybe is there a page three on this no
01:10:34 that is page three thank you in that case
01:10:37 case um this is quite difficult to read
01:10:46 this is an internal document it's from as it happens mike ferguson but much later 1978 by this time he is a manager within the sds and it's
01:11:01 sds and it's it reads a paragraph one with regard to the various demonstrations which took place over the weekend it is apparent that uh deputy assistant commissioner helm
01:11:08 helm of a department and that's the department that dealt with public order has voiced certain criticisms about the information which has been forthcoming from a special branch with particular
01:11:29 from a special branch with particular reference to the numbers taking part in the anl rally on the 30th of april and left-wing plans for the may day march and lord hayne you won't need me to tell you that 30th of april was a rock against racism event
01:11:42 event in victoria park yes a giant carnival um and it's actually today's the anniversary of it yes so we're seeing here criticism from the public uniform public order branch about the sds's intelligence about that event if we
01:11:55 intelligence about that event if we could um scroll up and look at paragraph two please
01:12:06 thank you in relation to the anl march it was always made perfectly clear from our sources that a total in the region of 30 000 was anticipated but that there was no indication that disorder was planned or envisaged in the event considerably more than 30 000 took part
01:12:22 considerably more than 30 000 took part in this rally but there can be no doubt that many thousands of these were punk rock fans
01:12:30 rock fans whose attendance could hardly have been forecasted by the sds there was no disorder and that of course is accords with your recollection and the uh philosophy exactly
01:12:41 exactly if we go to paragraph three please in view of the large number of demonstrators who were present in london on the 30th of april 1978 for the anl rally d.a.c helm expressed fears
01:12:52 rally d.a.c helm expressed fears that they would remain in london overnight with the express purpose of attacking the national front who were holding a march from grosvenor square to hoxton on the 1st of may 1978
01:13:06 hoxton on the 1st of may 1978 constant contact with our sources indicated that the majority of those who had traveled from outside london for the anl rally would in fact be
01:13:17 for the anl rally would in fact be leaving on sunday evening and that although the left were aware of the nf's plans
01:13:23 plans for a march on may day there was no intention to oppose them this information was passed to dac hell
01:13:40 this information was passed to dac hell so what appears to come from that is um the head of the sds as he then was asserting
01:13:45 asserting that the constant flow of intelligence from the sds had confirmed a negative it had confirmed
01:13:57 confirmed uh that uh the people who traveled to the rock against racism concert weren't going to include hot heads who would attack the national front the next day
01:14:08 national front the next day and that it appears was regarded as valuable intelligence would you accept that intelligence of that nature has a value
01:14:21 that nature has a value to police officers charged with policing public order well
01:14:25 look if that intelligence called that information i would prefer to call it would have been no surprise to anybody
01:14:37 no surprise to anybody and could have been obtained very easily by the police talking to us and finding out what our intentions were um and we'd have told them and we did because the
01:14:49 because the rally which was held in trafalgar square and then marched to uh to victoria park in london's east end obviously we needed stewarding arrangements with the police to ensure that that proceeded
01:15:00 that that proceeded uh proceeded properly in terms of traffic and all of that because our intention was not to disrupt it was to to rally against nazism and racism
01:15:11 racism and
01:15:13 and my only quarrel with the description is not that it isn't accurate it is and that's that's that's good and and to be welcomed
01:15:27 welcomed um but that information didn't require undercover policing officers it'd readily be available by normal contacts with the police between the police and and the a l organizers of which there were regular
01:15:41 regular communications and meetings and so forth but would you accept that within the ranks of of the broad church of anti-fascists there were hot heads of the kind we saw uh venting their frustrations at louisiana
01:15:54 louisiana quite possibly but you know um
01:15:56 um what you have to do surely as an undercover police officer is is focus quote unquote on the hot heads
01:16:10 quote unquote on the hot heads however you might define them people you think might about to commit violence or something
01:16:14 something and since the anti-nazi league as uh was a broad movement committed not committed to that objective
01:16:21 objective why was so much time it comes back to one of my constant themes in in this evidence to you and i'm grateful to be able to to present it as to why
01:16:33 as to why undercover officer policing is resources are devoted to a massive and disproportionate extent uh to
01:16:39 uh to finding out the obvious um which was in this this event in this in this example what was intended all along and and would have been known by the
01:16:50 would have been known by the the metropolitan police officers liaising with anti-nazi legal organizers staying with the victoria park rock
01:17:02 staying with the victoria park rock against racism at concert for a moment on the true spies program the former undercover officer whom we know as hn 21 used a pseudonym jeff
01:17:15 used a pseudonym jeff and there's an anecdote about sitting on sacks of money near to you do you have any recollection of that i do
01:17:25 i do i don't have a recollection clearly in my mind of he who he was or what he looked like disappointingly but
01:17:32 but yes because we collected cash from attendees of what was a free carnival with some
01:17:39 with some fantastic
01:17:44 fantastic groups playing like the clash and tom robinson and steele pulse and others that attracted over 100 000 people that much bigger than we ever expected and it was free but we obviously spent
01:18:03 and it was free but we obviously spent money organizing it putting up the stage and and so on with all the proper sound systems and that needed to be paid for and so we had uh a l volunteers with buckets as people streamed away and they they tossed in quite a lot of cash thankfully um
01:18:14 um that helped fund it so yes i do remember that uh particular incident we were all a bit worried about the security around the money to be frank
01:18:25 the money to be frank i see thank you could we take that down please and we're going to fast forward in time to 1994
01:18:31 1994 and could we have up please a document which is at tab 69 mps-0742-234
01:18:48 it's now saturday the 11th of june 1994 and we're at the camden center in bidbury street wc-1 for a large anc
01:18:58 anc at delegate meeting says 320 delegates from over 200 separate organizations attended this conference aml assumed not anc a l of the a l um over if we've got
01:19:15 of the a l um over if we've got the minute sheet for that document up at the moment could we go to page three please
01:19:20 please this is towards the back of the report and what is being reported here is the a l steering committee was appointed and approved by vote it says an old swp practice it is made up as
01:19:34 an old swp practice it is made up as follows what's the vote is that an old swp practice or what well i i i'm reading the same report as you lord hane and uh puzzled by it yeah
01:19:46 yeah we've to protect the privacy of of the political opinions of of those um who are listed with you we've redacted their names but your name uh remains on the sheet this is to
01:19:59 uh remains on the sheet this is to remind you of the date the 11th of june 1994
01:20:03 1994 were you a member of parliament by then i was
01:20:04 i was i had been since 1991
01:20:10 does it bother you that as an elected member of at that time the house of commons
01:20:15 commons your activities being
01:20:29 being elected to the anl's steering committee are the subject of reporting by an undercover police officer yes it does i think it's wholly wrong and i suspect close to being illegal that undercover officers were reporting on me
01:20:41 if you remember there was the wilson doctrine
01:20:46 doctrine that meant that by prime minister harold wilson that he announced i think to the house of commons that
01:20:50 that if any mp
01:20:55 if any mp was ever put under surveillance then that should be disclosed now i don't know whether i was under surveillance as an mp or whether i was um
01:21:04 um mentioned uh as attending but nevertheless i i'm identified there uh at a holy public open events
01:21:15 public open events and
01:21:18 and i i i personally think that's reprehensible why am i particularly picked out as if you know they have had undercover offices as is very evident by all the
01:21:32 offices as is very evident by all the evidence the inquiry has given me in the documents um that i've been shown metropolitan police undercover officer documents and others that the inquiry is kindly provided to me for for the purpose of me giving evidence today uh it's obvious
01:21:44 giving evidence today uh it's obvious that undercover officers were keeping an eye on me for not just during anti-apartheid days but right the way through uh into at least my early days as an mp and um as will become evident
01:21:57 and um as will become evident later on uh even when i was a cabinet minister i was mentioned in dispatchers
01:22:06 if we could go back a page to page two of this file
01:22:15 um can we look at the middle paragraph please
01:22:21 i'm picking up a reading from about four or five lines down the organization is in reality under the complete control of the socialist workers party and its omnipotent central committee
01:22:35 committee the anl is of great financial benefit to the swp
01:22:37 the swp the league contributing several thousand pounds a year to the party's coffers for printing alone the swp also benefits politically by controlling such a
01:22:51 politically by controlling such a broad-based organization and numerically by recruiting from the rich pool of potential members offered by the anl a very different summary
01:23:02 very different summary uh lord hayne to the one we read earlier of um
01:23:04 of um of it being a broad uh broad organization and had the anl changed by 1994
01:23:15 1994 such that it fitted this description or not
01:23:16 not not at all uh the former report was accurate this one isn't let me take each major point in turn um
01:23:26 um the socialist workers party was prominent
01:23:28 prominent in the
01:23:31 in the anti-nazi league there's never been any secret about that i've certainly not ever sought to deny that it's a fact but it was not it was not under the complete control of the swp
01:23:43 complete control of the swp and its so-called omnipotent central committee and that's an interesting phrase
01:23:44 phrase um
01:23:45 um it wasn't another it was too big the anti-nazi league was too big a movement to be controlled by anybody
01:23:57 to be controlled by anybody certainly not the swp which although a very well organized party as far as i know it is actually quite small then the next statement the anl is of great financial benefit to the swp and the only evidence seems to be that the printing was done by
01:24:09 printing was done by the swp's printers well the swp's printers for a start um tended to produce things much more efficiently and quickly
01:24:18 quickly than any other printers uh commercially of a commercial kind and actually not as expensive as them either so i can't you know it was not a i can't
01:24:33 you know it was not a i can't i cannot see how that was a source of income
01:24:36 income uh to the swp's printers it was you know they could produce leaflets almost overnight that we couldn't get done on a commercial basis in in the same way and certainly not for the same cost so that's wrong and politically um
01:24:52 and politically um in terms of potential members that that may have been its objective one of its objectives but actually as members of the a l who happened also to be members of the swp told me frankly actually was the labour party that benefited
01:25:03 that benefited overwhelmingly from membership recruitment in the 1970s and the 1990s from people who became involved in the anti-nazi league for the first time in any in any political way often very young
01:25:16 political way often very young and tended to end up in in the labor party maybe one or two did end up in the swp but overwhelmingly it was the labour party that benefited though
01:25:24 though though my support for it as a labor party mp and member was nothing to do with recruitment it was all in order to confront
01:25:32 confront nazism and racism and fascism as uh to my certain knowledge was the major objective of the swp thank you
01:25:45 thank you could you take that down now please i
01:25:48 i took an excursion into the 90s we're going to wind back to 1980 finished with the anl now we're moving
01:26:00 finished with the anl now we're moving on to the labor coordinating committee could we have up please ucpi five zeros one three eight six eight
01:26:27 thank you this is an sds report dated the 24th of march 1980 and it reads on monday the 17th of march 1980 at 7 pm at the methodist central hall westminster sw1 the labor
01:26:39 hall westminster sw1 the labor coordinating committee held a debate of the decade on the subject the crisis and the future of the left chaired by peter hayne about 2
01:26:51 hayne about 2 500 persons were present the debate never materialized as a discussion and
01:27:06 never materialized as a discussion and comprised six speakers explaining their personal politics and dissecting the politics of their fellow speakers um lord hayne for those who are following and who are not londoners methodist central hall is a building directly opposite the houses of parliament
01:27:17 parliament is that right it is and uh it was a debate and and portrayed as that between the six speakers they were they the most of them had different
01:27:29 they the most of them had different politics and that was the purpose of exploring
01:27:30 exploring the different views about the future of the left and the future of britain there was a debate in that sense well in so far as we've not had to protect their privacy uh let's have a
01:27:47 protect their privacy uh let's have a look at who some of those speakers were there's tariq ali who's already given evidence uh to the inquiry the late tony ben mp
01:27:51 mp and if we could scroll down
01:27:58 thank you tony cliff paul foote two very prominent um personalities from the left and if we could scroll down further please yourself in the chair
01:28:13 yourself in the chair duncan hales chris harmon and stuart holland
01:28:22 that's not actually correct duncan hallis and chris harmon didn't speak i'm not sure that tony cliff spoke either
01:28:23 either in fact
01:28:34 in fact audrey wise audrey wise spoke lord hey thank you very much it's my mistake paragraph two is listing persons identified all right it's tony ben terry paul foote and stuart holland who are identified as the speakers forgive me audrey was certainly a speaker
01:28:52 and then over the page audrey wise is is indeed listed as well so this is a a a broad range of speakers from the left wing included including an elected member of parliament
01:29:08 elected member of parliament and so far as you are concerned by that stage you were a member of the labour party yes actually the three elected members of parliament audrey wise was and so was stuart holland and so is tony ben obviously
01:29:23 and so is tony ben obviously does it concern you that the sds was reporting on this type of event it does because it was a publicly advertised event it was hugely successful a meeting in methodist central hall as you say
01:29:33 you say the other side of parliament square from the palace of westminster
01:29:46 westminster uh for the life of me i don't know why they were there except that they were obsessed with spying on left-wing events and it comes back to my concern that the progressive radical side of british politics seem to be their
01:29:56 their target
01:30:00 target and when i look back over the years of 50 plus years in politics and bring it up to date it seems to me that the constant targeting of of progressive radicals of various
01:30:14 of of progressive radicals of various description from those explicitly on the left
01:30:15 left or on the so-called far left or those uh on the center left seems to be the focus of attention rather than the right
01:30:28 rather than the right and and the far right and the alt-right or the fascist or nazi right and um
01:30:30 and um i
01:30:34 i that comes right up to date with the the revelation that um greenpeace and extinction rebellion both notable and unreputable uh environmentalists
01:30:46 uh environmentalists campaigning against the biggest threat to humanity climate change found themselves on a list of terrorist groups the official official list of terrorist groups now
01:31:00 groups now it's the the thinking that allows that to happen that seems to be in a continuum that is reflected in attendance of undercover officers at this particular debate which was of great interest to those who attended
01:31:11 those who attended but of
01:31:12 but of very little consequence to the metropolitan police and and certainly not to lawn order or security uh of the state in britain i'm going to tell you one fact lord
01:31:23 i'm going to tell you one fact lord hayne and then i'm going to ask the chairman if now is a convenient time for the afternoon break what i have to tell you in case it changes the answers you've been given on this is that the inquiry knows
01:31:40 this is that the inquiry knows that the sds did infiltrate the far right
01:31:40 right um from the 1980s we won't be hearing very much hearing or seeing very much evidence of that
01:31:56 seeing very much evidence of that because the risks from far right groups are such that we've had to make restriction orders
01:32:03 orders to protect the identity of the former undercover police officers um
01:32:07 um but that may be an important fact given the points that you're making i'm complete i'm pleased to hear that i don't think it detracts from my general argument uh and the anti-apartheid movement or or um that i've made in respect to the
01:32:21 or um that i've made in respect to the anal but i'm pleased to to hear that uh and reassured frankly to hear that because i'm not disputing and never have as a as a former secretary of state who's worked with undercover officers in northern ireland i'm not disputing the need for
01:32:33 i'm not disputing the need for undercover officers to protect us from terrorism or or serious organized crime or drug trafficking or human trafficking or anything like that
01:32:44 or anything like that what i am disputing is the is the way it was um deployed particularly in those things that i know about or was involved thank you
01:32:56 thank you sir is now a convenient time for the afternoon break yes it is thank you
01:33:02 good afternoon everyone we will now take a break
01:33:03 a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please the time is now 3
01:33:14 breakout rooms please the time is now 3 20 p.m so we shall re convene at 3 35 pm thank you
01:49:36 good afternoon everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you mr barr thank you sir
01:49:47 thank you sir lord hayne can we now turn to the labour party special conference this is a tap 59 sir and could we have up on the screen please ucpi five zeros 14020
01:50:00 before we do that may i just briefly add to your last and very welcome point on uh
01:50:04 uh undercover work in far-right groups of course
01:50:09 course um i'm not sure that i can be seen but shall i wait until this is this episode's finished by all means this is a very short point um
01:50:14 um the
01:50:19 the fine fire away lord hey okay i won't be long
01:50:25 um right shall we deal with the document first indeed it's very it's very straightforward at the labor party a special conference um this is a report dated the 11th of june 1980
01:50:38 1980 and it's sds report as you can see from the top right subject matter says in block capitals underlined labour party
01:50:45 party paragraph one the under mentioned persons were identified as being present at 9 00 am on the 31st of may 1980 outside the conference center wembley middlesex where the labour party was
01:50:57 middlesex where the labour party was holding a special conference and then there are a number of names that we are able to publish your name is amongst some along with bob cox roger cox and paul
01:51:10 along with bob cox roger cox and paul holbrook and if we scroll down please
01:51:20 there are two more names don trudeal and andy zabrowski can you help us lord hane was there anything
01:51:28 anything disorderly about the group of people who are reported on there as being outside the conference center
01:51:37 center in wembley that morning not at all this was
01:51:47 a conference of her majesty's opposition the labour party and we were in opposition at the time a perfectly normal
01:51:58 a perfectly normal parliamentary party type conference and
01:52:01 and i've no idea why there was an undercover officer reporting on it i think i was dishing out a few anti-nazi legal leaflets there which might have attracted his interest as it happens i i was a delegate from
01:52:18 as it happens i i was a delegate from putney labour party and i took my two young sons to the creche at the conference so just normal activity of a democratic kind
01:52:26 kind thank you can we take that down now please
01:52:27 please and please do take this opportunity to respond to what i said before the break i'm grateful it's just that i was able to check
01:52:34 to check and uh was identified a report in the guardian on the 15th of october 2018 which showed that of around a thousand groups that um undercover officers were deployed in
01:52:46 undercover officers were deployed in just one percent or so were far-right groups the rest were environmentalists um
01:52:55 um stephen lawrence campaign national trade unions mostly of a progressive kind that should have attracted absolutely no interest legitimate interest at all from undercover offices i mean i welcomed your your statement about those
01:53:06 your your statement about those far-right groups but i think it's important that it's put into perspective and what is needed here is full transparency and if that's something the
01:53:17 transparency and if that's something the inquiry can help with um i'd be grateful thank you
01:53:21 thank you can we move now to voices for withdrawal um
01:53:28 um also referred as labour committee on ireland can we go to tab 60 ucpi 5014080
01:53:52 lord hayne are you able to help us with what voices for withdrawal was
01:53:57 i think it was
01:54:07 it was an argument saying that britain should withdraw from northern ireland and british forces should withdraw from northern ireland um i i'm not sure to be frank i'm not sure the exact
01:54:19 to be frank i'm not sure the exact provenance of the group now but i think that's what its purpose was and the committee for withdrawal from ireland i think you've made clear in your witness statement that contrary to this report it had nothing to do with the liberal party
01:54:36 party yes indeed and uh i was not a member of the liberal party at that point so i don't understand the uh the statement organized by the liberal party
01:54:42 party uh and uh this was a uh
01:54:53 uh and uh this was a uh an event involving debate about the vexed issue of ireland that your
01:54:57 that your contribution is on page three paragraph 12.
01:55:06 thank you it says the second of the afternoon sessions commenced at 3 15 p.m with the chair of the forum reverting back to its morning occupant mick martin who
01:55:19 morning occupant mick martin who introduced a session under the head why we call for withdrawal from northern ireland and introduce peter hayne from the labour party to speak on the subject pain in a very cautious mood and much to the disapproval of the majority of the
01:55:33 the disapproval of the majority of the audience urged that the conference moved slowly towards attempting to get the parliamentary labour party to take up a withdrawal position he concluded by suggesting that the
01:55:46 he concluded by suggesting that the conference should aim for the next labor government to give a clear undertaking to withdraw from northern ireland without specifically demanding a date
01:56:00 without specifically demanding a date now very obviously what you are recorded as saying is utter mainstream politics what i'm interested in given the disapproval that it met with is is this a meeting at which there are extremists or not there would have been
01:56:12 there would have been far-left groups and some frankly allied to um
01:56:14 to um to the republican movement and some sympathetic to the provisional ira which i was not and that's in part why what i said was
01:56:27 said was uh and to that extent he describes it as very cautious as if i was normally flirting with that kind of politics which i never did when i made it clear that i was opposed to violence and that i was opposed to
01:56:45 to violence and that i was opposed to the activities of the ira in in on the island of ireland there was some some doing and unrest um so yes
01:56:52 you're correct in in interpreting and in your observations about about my participation there by the way you'll see a number of other labor labor mps including um
01:57:01 um clive surly who i think from memory was the opposition shadow secretary of state on northern ireland at the time or at least a shadow minister on northern ireland uh he may not have been but
01:57:14 ireland uh he may not have been but that's what i think he might have been yes and i think we can see yes he's mentioned in the paragraph below along with ernie ross also an mp thank you could we take that down please
01:57:27 and could we go next to tab 66 which is ucpi5017175
01:57:42 we're now in february 1982 and this is a report about the right to work march of that year and
01:57:47 and as it's i think in in london could we go over the page please and then look at the entry for wednesday the 24th of february
01:58:11 this report is is recording amongst other things that on wednesday the 24th of february the march will continue as previously reported to borough community center where the speakers will be
01:58:27 center where the speakers will be i think that's either dick or rick north harriet harmon peter hayne and you yolanda bison or bystrom
01:58:35 did you speak at the borough community centre
01:58:40 centre i may well have done uh i don't know why it was of any interest at all to an undercover officer and why the resources were deployed to record that it's not clear to me at all but i may well have done
01:58:54 done if you the reason i'm asking is that if you can recall at all i'd i'd be uh
01:58:55 uh i would
01:58:56 i would value
01:58:58 value some impression of whether or not what was being said was in any way provoking disorder or
01:59:11 was in any way provoking disorder or encouraging unlawful conduct or anything like that
01:59:13 like that not at all and
01:59:16 and as i recollect it what it was was there's a great deal of concern at the time this is 1982 i think and that there was very large and
01:59:28 and that there was very large and escalating mass unemployment in britain at the time the closure of mines and heavy industry under margaret thatcher's premiership and without getting into all of that
01:59:38 of that there were marches going on against unemployment and for alternative economic policies of the kind that john maynard keynes and others had advocated to
01:59:45 to use public investment to to drive economic growth and and provide jobs for people
01:59:50 people and uh there were marches all over the place and uh this was the right to work march was won and and i i was would have been a speaker including harriet harman i don't think
02:00:05 including harriet harman i don't think she had been elected in mp yet but she was on the point of uh being may already have been depending on the dates but i don't think she had quite been uh and of course she like me was subsequently a cabinet minister i don't
02:00:19 subsequently a cabinet minister i don't know why this report was was being made at all what's wrong with the right to work march thank you could we take that down now please
02:00:31 now in in just a moment we i'm going to move to some of the themes that um
02:00:34 that um have come out from your statement and your
02:00:37 your evidence but before we do that it's right that i should make clear that this is an ongoing investigation we've called you as part of tranche one of our evidence hearings and we have got some more documents
02:00:51 and we have got some more documents which refer to you and which we'll be disclosing to you in the future and we are likely to be returning to you for further assistance um it's very kind of you of course
02:01:02 of course you
02:01:03 you you mentioned just after lunch a particular report that we are aware of but which is not fully uh
02:01:14 aware of but which is not fully uh processed and just for the transcript i should read in that that is um dated the 18th of november 2003 and i think the material passage reads catcher's father is a good friend of south african sick who was an
02:01:30 friend of south african sick who was an activist terrorist but who now works at the uk home office that's the passage that caused you particular concern yes it's the one i think i mentioned uh out of sequence
02:01:41 think i mentioned uh out of sequence earlier on and i mentioned it because to be described by um mark kennedy the undercover officer concerned i used that phrase
02:01:46 phrase as as a south african terrorist people say lots about things about me in my time in politics but being described as a terrorist has
02:01:58 but being described as a terrorist has never been one of them because i'm not a terrorist and i've never supported terrorism and it troubles me that a senior undercover officer uh involved in infiltrating environmentalists groups and when we formed a liaison with
02:02:12 and when we formed a liaison with actually a family friend kate wilson who went to school with my boys and uh the fact that he's called me a terrorist and a south african terrorist um
02:02:23 um you know years after nelson mandela who had been described by the apartheid status as a terrorist and indeed even by margaret thatcher who had been president of the country and already stood down i just it reflects a
02:02:35 it reflects a state of mind that i find very troubling
02:02:46 that i find very troubling about undercover policing work and i do hope that sir john your inquiry will address this matter when when you eventually come to your conclusions about it and make recommendations presumably for the future of undercover policing as i trust you will
02:02:59 moving now to some broader themes the first of all first of all the dissemination of intelligence you've seen
02:03:04 seen that the
02:03:06 that the reports are often marked with box 500 which shows that they were sent to the security service does it concern you that material of the kind we've been looking at today
02:03:21 kind we've been looking at today was being passed to the security service and if so why it concerns me for two reasons first of all
02:03:29 all what i was involved in was legitimate democratic uh protest and in some cases parliamentary activity and i don't think that should be of any interest to the security services
02:03:41 interest to the security services but it may have been during the times of the anti-aponte movement because the british security services were working hand-in-glove with the south african the protein security services and they were trading information
02:03:54 trading information uh between them i think my colleague anti-apartheid activist leading anti-apartheid activist christophel gurney might have mentioned
02:04:08 christophel gurney might have mentioned this yesterday and that does trouble me because the security services of south africa were engaged in waging terror on all opposition including uh including my parents when they were in pretoria
02:04:20 pretoria and uh on nelson mandela's um supporters while he was in prison and our security services
02:04:21 services should not have been doing that they were on the wrong side of the history on the wrong side of the argument they should have been standing up if they have any
02:04:33 if they have any agenda it should have been standing up for human rights and justice and the rule of law and that's expressly what did not operate in south africa so yeah i i am very concerned that they were trading information with
02:04:44 that they were trading information with the south african security services who were themselves engaged in illegal bombings and arsenal attacks and murder and sending letter bonds to or a letter bond to anti-apartheid activists and the next topic i want to move to is
02:04:58 and the next topic i want to move to is retention because of course some of the documents we've been looking at uh today are half a century old but have been retrieved by the inquiry from
02:05:12 been retrieved by the inquiry from various files do you have concerns about how long material has been stored for i do because i was told by um the head of the director general of mi5
02:05:24 the head of the director general of mi5 stephen lander who came to see me in my ministerial office in the front office in
02:05:25 in i think it was july 2000 uh told that there were no there had been file security service files on me but that they'd been destroyed i am concerned about
02:05:39 i am concerned about special branch files on me whether they've been retained obviously they're in existence so they must have been retrieved but are they have they in any way been active
02:05:48 active uh including whilst i was in i know the special branch doesn't exist anymore but i don't know where they've gone in the
02:06:00 i don't know where they've gone in the metropolitan police or security service world and i i am concerned about that um
02:06:04 um because of course before i he had before i became on becoming of being appointed a minister first by the prime minister tony blair in 1997 may 1997 like all
02:06:17 tony blair in 1997 may 1997 like all other ministers i would have been vetted and certainly i was security vet it would have been security vetted before i saw
02:06:22 saw the secret intelligence that i told you i did as a foreign office minister and a secretary of state for northern ireland
02:06:33 secretary of state for northern ireland so i am i'm troubled by this uh and i'd like to know what the situation is if it's possible for the so john's inquiry to find out
02:06:42 thank you boundaries we've heard evidence from a number of the officers so who've used words such as unfiltered to explain how they understood their role as to what they should record
02:06:55 should record leaving it for others to filter further down the line
02:07:08 down the line and we've seen reporting on all sorts of activities today as we've gone through your documents including reporting on you as a member of parliament and so forth
02:07:11 forth you mentioned in your witness statement boundaries could you expand on precisely what your concerns are in that regard please well first of all what i regard as
02:07:25 well first of all what i regard as legitimate undercover officer work um
02:07:26 um and i say that as somebody who was secretary of state for northern ireland to repeat myself worked with um
02:07:37 to repeat myself worked with um undercover officers and met some of them doing very sensitive work uh especially with dissidents infiltrating dissident ira groups and loyalist paramilitary groups and drug gangs and so on
02:07:50 drug gangs and so on active in belfast i mean they're doing very dangerous work and i always admired their bravery and applauded the work that they were doing
02:08:01 work that they were doing because we don't want bombs going off anywhere um except whether from irish sources or jihadi sources and i've been involved in
02:08:14 and i've been involved in signing warrants that stopped that kind of thing happening both in london and in
02:08:19 and in in northern ireland so you know i think there's legitimate undercover policing and there's illegitimate undercover policing and i think the undercover policing
02:08:32 think the undercover policing that concern my activities is holy illegitimate and
02:08:35 and i understand one of the um the uh undercover officers whose his name has appeared before the inquiry was also involved in
02:08:48 was also involved in in um anti-terrorist work and i applaud that that officer's role in anti-terrorist work as legitimate and important
02:08:55 important uh to protect all of us but i deprecate
02:09:04 but i deprecate his role in uh in the kind of activities which we've heard about in this inquiry and have affected me so that's that's the kind of boundaries i'm i'm i'm seeking to draw and i hope that um sir john uh will draw those um
02:09:16 sir john uh will draw those um at the end of the inquiry i think it's really important to the legitimacy and consent that there is for undercover policing that that boundary is clearly established and that we don't find every other
02:09:33 and that we don't find every other environmentalist group that every other anti-racist group that in the past anti-apartheid groups and national trade unions today are are the subject of undercover work because they're not subversive organizations they're part of the democracy of this country or should be
02:09:48 democracy of this country or should be so i think that's the kind of boundary i'd like to see drawn and also boundaries in in undercover work as well i cannot
02:09:56 i cannot see any justification for undercover officers forming close and intimate sexual relationships with environmental activists
02:10:08 environmental activists such as um our family friend kate wilson i cannot see the justification for that you may or may not approve of what she stands for in
02:10:15 in alerting the world to climate change or in her environmental activism but she's not a criminal and
02:10:25 and undercover policing should be directed at stopping crime
02:10:27 crime and stopping terrorism and stopping drug trafficking and human trafficking and that kind of thing
02:10:34 thing not at
02:10:36 not at repressing progressive political activity so the boundaries are those kind of boundaries that we've got to establish
02:10:48 boundaries that we've got to establish for the future health of our democracy there's also a boundary that i think you're inviting me to comment on specifically and that is the kind of reporting
02:10:58 reporting there's a lot of gratuitous reporting going on of no interest to anybody but presumably it provides you know uh is the indication that an undercover officer is not around the pub having a point but is in a meeting somewhere and
02:11:13 point but is in a meeting somewhere and i just cannot see how that's justified i i know for a fact how limited police resources are we've seen huge cuts in police numbers in in recent years and it is a question of prioritizing
02:11:26 and it is a question of prioritizing resources and they're being prioritized in the areas we've been discussing on the wrong
02:11:27 the wrong in the wrong areas you've expressed some surprise in your witness statement about the scale of reporting
02:11:37 reporting that
02:11:38 that you've seen on the groups that you were involved in is there anything further that you would like to say on that topic i think i pretty well covered it i
02:11:52 i think i pretty well covered it i mentioned just i mentioned in passing this morning just
02:11:55 just an example of a an undercover officer report from my parents front room in putney again on a meeting of putney young liberals which was
02:12:06 which was attended by only a few people i think less than a dozen or around that number and had a representative his name was john horrocks representing the putney society
02:12:21 representing the putney society which is a very respected um mainstream uh
02:12:28 uh conservation group you know of the kind in british politics there are every in every community like the women's institutes are what on earth was he doing there a theme throughout your answers to me
02:12:41 a theme throughout your answers to me today has been the righteousness of the causes that you've supported and uh
02:12:46 and uh being on the right side of history when
02:12:50 when the police have to make decisions about applying the law are you saying that they should take into account the merits of a cause when policing public order
02:13:02 public order or are you not going that far
02:13:09 i'm saying that if there is an intent to commit
02:13:14 commit violent criminal acts on behalf of an organization then obviously that's a legitimate target for the police obviously um
02:13:24 um so
02:13:28 so i have no quarrel with that but
02:13:33 but i cannot see how it can be justified that um
02:13:37 that um the anti-apartheid movement should have been um
02:13:39 been um subject of such wide spread and intrusive undercover work i cannot see how that can be justified and i just observe
02:13:53 and i just observe that on the whole it is the progressive to left
02:13:57 to left sometimes to to liberalish side of
02:13:58 side of politics and protest and pressure group activity that undercover policing seems to be focused upon
02:14:10 upon rather than dangerous far-right activity would you agree that it's the role of the police to apply the law to everyone equally
02:14:15 equally of course
02:14:22 of course and would you agree that um if the cause is to have any
02:14:23 any role at all in decision making that would give rise to difficult questions about who decides what a good cause is and what is not a good cause yes but as you'll know from
02:14:34 yes but as you'll know from being in your profession the decisions to mount prosecutions the decisions to prioritize police resources this is the decisions of the police to
02:14:50 this is the decisions of the police to focus on this rather than that are all a matter of operational police discretion and there's considerable scope for choice there within the the rule of law that's always been the case for policing and uh what is in the public interest and what is not in the public interest
02:15:07 and what is not in the public interest to pursue and it was not in the public interest to infiltrate the anti-apartheid movement a respectable mainstream pressure group in british society there's no justification for it so why were they doing it
02:15:18 were they doing it there was no rule of the law justification at all lord hayne uh i think i've covered everything but there's a risk i haven't so i'm going to give the opportunity if there's anything else that you would like to to add
02:15:29 like to to add um
02:15:30 um now is your chance well thank you and can i thank you for the way that um you've handled this matter and dealt with with my evidence
02:15:43 matter and dealt with with my evidence you've given me considerable leeway and i'm grateful for that and i think um i can't complain about the way that um it's come out so i'm grateful for that um
02:15:51 um first of all i i i repeat that i hope that john and the inquiry and to the extent that you're involved yourself um mr barr will um focus on the legitimacy and illegitimacy
02:16:06 the legitimacy and illegitimacy boundaries because it seems to me that this is at the heart of it the other
02:16:10 the other side of it that i hope you'll focus on is the
02:16:11 is the the role of undercover officer work that seems to be written for secret documents that were
02:16:22 written for secret documents that were never expected to appear in front of an official public inquiry and to be publicly dissected in the way that they have been today and in previous days and no doubt in subsequent days
02:16:32 days and
02:16:33 and they all they seem to be very self-serving and self-promoting to me they use terms like in the stop the 72 campaign spreading panic
02:16:46 campaign spreading panic attacking subversive the use of tin tax and example which was a straight lie so i think that there needs to be some scrutiny of the
02:16:56 the the state of mind of undercover officers when they're doing this as i say i think there's
02:17:04 there's vitally important undercut officer work and when that's done for the reasons i've expressed uh it can be dangerous to their own safety and they're very brave people
02:17:12 people but you know all of what we've been discussing today hasn't fallen into that custody i think there's also i worry and it goes to your point about boundaries
02:17:23 boundaries it's a tendency to spy on everybody on the off chance that it might lead you to somebody and that's the kind of approach that would
02:17:35 would encourage you to spy on the whole of the muslim community in the case that you might catch the odd jihadi
02:17:42 jihadi you're in a tiny minority and that's not acceptable undercover policing difficult though it is and police intelligence difficult though it is to glean and i know that from personal experience as i've worked with the intelligence services i've
02:17:54 with the intelligence services i've noted on first name terms and counters friends former heads of the mi5 and mi6 and gchq
02:18:06 and gchq and have worked closely with them but you know you do not you do not see an a successful end product by a kind of omnibus scattergun approach to
02:18:20 omnibus scattergun approach to undercover policing work and you know some of the some of the professionals watching this may say who's he to pronounce in this way but that's my view and i hope the inquiry will address that
02:18:31 inquiry will address that i also think that a lot of this went wrong from the very beginning there seemed to be a kind of open season on progressive or left-wing ideas and movements to see if there are any subversives or about and
02:18:42 and that's classically portrayed
02:18:46 portrayed in the political choice to just to spy on the stephen lawrence campaign the family's campaign to bring justice
02:18:54 justice to their murdered son rather than the racists who murdered him it took a long time
02:19:03 time to be brought to justice and
02:19:09 and i don't think i've mentioned but um yes i may well have done have i mentioned the um because it falls into under this category if i mentioned the report
02:19:16 report uh
02:19:18 uh that the anti-apartheid movement was a stalinist outfit by an undercover police officer i think i have here so that's that's an example of that frame of mind so i'd i'd like to
02:19:31 so i'd i'd like to um
02:19:32 um the inquiry to address the the um the lack of proportionality involved in in undercover offices you know really going deeply into our our lives um i'd like also
02:19:47 um i'd like also you to address what was right and wrong about history was it right to infiltrate women's rights groups
02:19:58 to infiltrate women's rights groups um in the early 1970s was it correct to infiltrate the anti-apartheid movement which was a had the objective of stopping apartheid i know it's not the inquiry's purpose is to get involved in politics but you can't avoid making a choice here
02:20:11 choice here either it was wrong or it was or it was not wrong
02:20:15 not wrong and i don't think it's acceptable to target environmentalists who are alerting us to the climate change catastrophe and put them on terrorist lists
02:20:22 lists and i
02:20:26 and i also reinforced the point about limited resources and the massive waste of resources that is involved in here for no clear outcome to the security of or peace
02:20:39 peace of our society and finally if i just add that
02:20:39 that you know
02:20:44 you know i'm not sun starry-eyed romantic about all of this i i i support the rule of law i want to see effective policing we all depend on
02:20:57 see effective policing we all depend on effective policing to underpin the rule of law in a nondiscriminatory fashion there are bad people about and some of them are involved in politics and some of them are not always on on the far right where most of them are
02:21:10 are so you know i i i see the need for for that but
02:21:13 that but if you look back at this record that the inquiry is covering uh it is a pretty sorry record of undercover policing and i hope that the recommendations from sir john will make
02:21:24 recommendations from sir john will make sure that it never happens again and it isn't happening now that it isn't happening in legitimate environmental groups like um green peace or extinction rebellion whatever you think of
02:21:35 rebellion whatever you think of extinction rebellions tactics on a particular day it's an admirable movement with admirable objectives and i hope it doesn't have undercover officers
02:21:46 doesn't have undercover officers all over the place within it distorting and reporting back on what it is uh doing in a way that uh happened to me in the anti-apartheid movement and the anti-nazi league thank you very much for the opportunity to add those points
02:22:01 to add those points thank you for answering my questions so patiently all day the procedure now is we have a 15-minute break which is time for other advocates to contact us if they want anything else uh pursued uh so you'll have to i'm
02:22:20 uh pursued uh so you'll have to i'm afraid bear with us for a little little while longer it'll be a pleasure thank you for doing so thank you
02:22:21 thank you mr fernandez
02:22:29 good afternoon everyone we will now take a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please the time is now 16 10 p.m so we shall reconvene at 16 25 pm thank you
02:39:32 good afternoon everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman mr barr are there any further questions from the lord hayne no sir um mr ryder uh
02:39:48 um mr ryder uh your counselor lord hane do you have any questions in re-examination now
02:39:49 now no thank you sir then lord hane
02:40:02 then lord hane all that remains is for me to say thank you for the obvious care
02:40:10 care and
02:40:14 and thought that you have put into your written
02:40:15 written evidence and into your oral evidence today the questions that you posed at the end
02:40:26 the end uh when you concluded your remarks to mr barr
02:40:33 barr i have always thought are absolutely central to this inquiry and once i found out what happened i most certainly will address them thank you
02:40:42 thank you grateful sir john and for this opportunity and also to mr barr for the courtesy and professionalism he displayed in
02:40:53 displayed in in question me thank you thank you
02:40:54 thank you mr fernandez
02:41:00 thank you everyone the hearings have now finished for the week hearings will resume at 10 am on tuesday the 4th of may thank you
02:43:15 you