Morning session begins with counsel summaries of HN353 (Gary Roberts) and HN351 evidence covering their infiltration of the International Socialists and International Marxist Group. The majority of the session features extended testimony from Richard Chessum, a core participant who was targeted by undercover officer Rick Gibson (HN297) while involved in the Troops Out Movement and other left-wing political groups in the mid-1970s. Chessum provides detailed evidence about how Gibson infiltrated his organization, rose to positions of power within TOM, formed sexual relationships with activists, and was eventually exposed by Big Flame members.
00:08:16 good morning everyone and welcome to day 10 of hearings in tranche 1
00:08:19 tranche 1 phase 2 at the undercover policing inquiry
00:08:23 inquiry my name is neil fernandes and i am the hearings manager for those of you in the virtual hearing room please turn off both your camera and microphone
00:08:34 and microphone unless you're invited to speak by the chairman as zoom will pick up on all noises and you will be on screen i now hand over to the chairman sir john mitten to formally start proceedings chairman thank you um
00:08:46 chairman thank you um ms parks is going to spend the next half an hour or so summarizing the evidence of two undercover officers who provided britain's statements and reminding us of the evidence of three
00:08:59 three who haven't which are contained in documents energy ms parks thank you sir good morning i'll be summarizing evidence for hm hn353 and hn 351 starting with hm 353
00:09:25 and hn 351 starting with hm 353 hn353 joined the sds in late spring 1974 and served in the unit until june 1978. he infiltrated the international socialists vis and the international marxist group the img using the cover name gary roberts
00:09:36 roberts there is a restriction order in respect of his real name the reports date between the 18th of june 1974
00:09:43 june 1974 and the 4th of august 1978 although he claims to have infiltrated the two groups
00:09:55 the two groups between september 1974 and june 1978 amounting to a total of 195 weeks
00:10:03 hm 353 joined special branch in the early 1970s as a detective constable but he did no undercover work prior to joining the scs he describes the existence of the unit as a well-kept secret
00:10:17 as a well-kept secret although he did not know any details about its operation he was recruited by an scs officer with whom he had worked previously and agreed to join because it sounded different and exciting
00:10:34 different and exciting he was not required to undertake any tests or interviews as part of this process
00:10:39 process and there was no formal information or training provided to him about the nature of the work he understood that his primary role was to gather intelligence about public disorder
00:10:48 disorder so that demonstrations could be policed effectively his initial service in the scs back office typing up reports
00:11:00 office typing up reports allowed him to learn from other offices he was not given specific instructions about what intelligence to obtain but knew from prior police experience which information about group activities would be of interest
00:11:14 hn 353's cover name gary roberts was that of a deceased child he obtained the name and date of birth from somerset house but did not use any other details from the child's life
00:11:29 the child's life he also took the img party name gary shopland
00:11:32 shopland although he does not recall ever using this
00:11:36 this he had cover accommodation near muswell hill
00:11:37 hill and cover employment as a painted decorator although he did no work in this role
00:11:45 this role after joining the southeast london branch of the img he enrolled in a bachelor's degree at thames polytechnic
00:11:57 thames polytechnic studying political economy funded by the mps he became vice president of the student union he fell behind with his coursework and never sat his finals
00:12:09 never sat his finals hn 353 was provided with a cover vehicle in which he stored tools to support his cover employment he also used it for group work in the img
00:12:17 img assisting in the distribution of the red star newspaper and transporting jonathan silverman on a speaking tour hn 353 states that he was part of the finsbury park is
00:12:28 finsbury park is from approximately september 1974 but he agrees that he was probably the author of an is report signed in his real name and dated the 18th of june
00:12:39 18th of june 1974. he recalls attending the demonstration where kevin gately lost his life
00:12:48 his life but notes that his reporting on this is missing
00:12:52 missing this demonstration took place in june 1974
00:12:56 1974 which combined with the june report bearing his name may indicate that hm 353 infiltrated the is
00:13:01 is a little earlier than he recalls
00:13:07 he would not have considered himself an official is member but states that he reported regularly on the group for at least a year hn 353 recalls that his involvement with the south east london img
00:13:20 the south east london img began in around september 1975 and for about six months he attended both groups before the img required him to choose between them
00:13:34 between them he chose the img and remained a member of that group until the end of his deployment in around june 1978. he believes that his initial tasking into the finsbury park is
00:13:46 into the finsbury park is would have come from detective chief inspector neil who was also responsible for his move to the img
00:13:54 the img hn353 can't be sure whether he influenced this transfer but having reviewed the reports provided by the inquiry he believes that he might have been tasked to the img to replace hm 338
00:14:14 hm 353 denies being the author of any of the img reports attributed to him prior to september 1975. however it should be noted that from the 21st of november 1974 there are a number of scs reports
00:14:28 1974 there are a number of scs reports which concern img members connected to thames polytechnic or img meetings in southeast london both features of hm 353's reporting
00:14:42 hn353 suggests that img reporting prior to the autumn of 1975 is likely to be that of hn 338 an sds officer also deployed into the ing
00:14:53 ing however the inquiry believes that hn 338 was withdrawn from the field in december 1973
00:15:03 1973 and so could not be responsible for this reporting
00:15:05 reporting in addition hn 338 reported on the img
00:15:16 in addition hn 338 reported on the img in the notting hill and west london area the report dated the 31st of december 1974
00:15:20 1974 which hn 353 rejects as being attributable to him by virtue of the date provides information about an img meeting which took place in the queen's arms on burridge road se18
00:15:33 se18 the site of a large number of meetings at the southeast branch of the img which hm 353 confirms were attended by him
00:15:41 him hn 353 disputes the attribute attribution of various other reports in his pack
00:15:49 his pack whilst also noting that the majority of his is reporting is missing for the img he states that the inquiry appears to be missing his reporting
00:16:04 missing his reporting between december 1977 and june 1978 including coverage of two large anti-racism demonstrations one in lewisham and another in wood green
00:16:15 green the latter involved the img scouting for the route to be taken by the national front march he states that quote we were scoping for good attack points and sources of ammunition
00:16:26 ammunition i.e rubble he would also have provided a report
00:16:26 report after the demonstration took place hn 353 believes that the public order intelligence was disseminated to police uniform departments
00:16:38 uniform departments and would have been valuable where it was relied upon in general hn 353 believes that the available reporting does not really show the kind of intelligence that he produced on the subject of public order
00:16:51 subject of public order but he does not know why this would be missing
00:16:56 amongst the reports attributable to hm 353 obtained by the inquiry there is no reference to any potential or actual violence and no overt discussion of potential or actual public disorder
00:17:11 actual public disorder during hn 353's is deployment between september 1974 to march 1976 there was one one reference
00:17:20 reference to a demonstration albeit one organized by the national abortion campaign and not by is seventy people attended this march led by three women in a mini with a loudspeaker
00:17:35 loudspeaker during his img deployment between september 1975 and june 1978 there are 15 reports which mentioned demonstrations or pickets
00:17:49 mentioned demonstrations or pickets three of these refer to joint actions with other groups to protest against public sector cuts for example the closure to the weir maternity hospital to deal with planned opposition to the national front
00:18:01 national front two refer to img attendance at an anti-fascist protest one in blackburn and another in hyde cheshire
00:18:08 cheshire although hn 353 believes this latter report is not his one additional report refers to planned national anti-racism demonstration
00:18:19 national anti-racism demonstration and the remaining reports refer to img support for other organizations such as the national abortion campaign and the labour party young socialists although none of the reports mentioned
00:18:36 although none of the reports mentioned violence hn353 states that he witnessed the usual punch-ups at demonstrations with the img but he was generally at the back on one occasion he and other protesters were charged by a police mounted unit
00:18:48 were charged by a police mounted unit there was no violence to property that he can recall it all took place between right and left-wing groups with the police in between
00:18:59 between during his involvement in is hn 353 would attend at least one private meeting per week as well as public meetings and demonstrations at the weekend he continued this pattern following his transfer to the img
00:19:10 transfer to the img but in addition to this schedule he attended thames polytechnic where he was involved in student politics this resulted in him being in his cover identity
00:19:24 identity for eight hours a day it was rare for him to have time off at home but this happened more frequently in the autumn and winter months when there were fewer demonstrations
00:19:35 when there were fewer demonstrations he attended meetings at the scs safe house three times a week but this fell to twice a week later in his deployment managers were also available by telephone or in person
00:19:48 telephone or in person outside regular meeting times he notes that
00:19:49 that quote i would hand in a manuscript report at our scs meetings which i'd never see again i don't recall seeing the typed up version
00:20:02 version as for the content of reports hn353 writes
00:20:02 writes quote i would hoover up everything it wasn't my job to analyze it i would just report it
00:20:13 just report it the majority of the reporting attributed to hn 353
00:20:15 to hn 353 records discussions at img meetings usually on the topics of policies and political structure of the organization he states that he included the political content of meetings
00:20:27 content of meetings but this would have been more for the benefit of the security services than for the police counter subversion was not the primary aim of the sds
00:20:44 aim of the sds but virtually all intelligence was copied to the security services hn 353 did not have any direct involvement with them but the security services did award him a commendation for one of his reports which he assumes was for the img national conference
00:20:58 national conference a telephone message from box 500 thanks assistant chief superintendent meal on the 3rd of november 1976 for the report on the img conference stating that it will quote be of tremendous value to my service
00:21:18 hn 353 states that quote i don't think anything i witnessed was actually subversive the img was strong on words but in hindsight
00:21:25 hindsight i think they were not really likely to act on them his view was that the img wanted to establish a communist state with power to the workers but he states that
00:21:36 that quote i don't think they knew how to achieve that goal the theory they followed would have endorsed the use of violence to achieve their aim
00:21:44 their aim but i never saw them actually applying violence to that aim aside from when they were trying to throw the national front off the street
00:21:54 hn 353 was not tasked to report on entries
00:21:59 entries but he knew that it would be of interest to special branch and the security services
00:22:03 services although the in the img this was done in quote
00:22:09 quote a quite half-hearted way he was not aware of any img policy of entries into trade unions hn 353 states that he was not tasked to report on racial or sexual equality campaigns
00:22:21 campaigns but would record these topics where they were discussed in meetings such as various anti-racist work planned by the img there is a report dated the 24th of january 1977
00:22:32 january 1977 concerning the founding delegate conference of the all lewisham campaign against racialism and fascism workshops at this event
00:22:45 and fascism workshops at this event quote revealed the considerable amount of antipathy towards the police in lewisham
00:22:48 lewisham who was seen to engage in frequent harassment of blacks the question was asked why no official representative of the police was in attendance at the conference
00:23:00 hn 353 states that he was not tasked to report on this meeting
00:23:11 report on this meeting but would have attended in his capacity as vice president of the student union reports dated the 8th of may 1975 and the 27th of june 1975 record engagement by the court participant mary with the national abortion campaign and a report on the 27th of june 1975
00:23:26 a report on the 27th of june 1975 contains personal details about her planned holiday these reports predate the time when hn 353
00:23:34 353 believes he reported on the img but he notes that he does recognize mary's name although he cannot be sure why
00:23:41 why a further report dated the 26th of september 1975 also mentions mary core participants rich chessum and piers corbin
00:23:59 corbin are also mentioned in hn 353's reporting he states that piers corbin was not an elected politician during this period although he might have been a local
00:24:07 councillor states that he did not hold any position of responsibility in ing he recalls being advised by managers not to become an organizer in groups
00:24:14 groups there was no training on whether close relationships and cover identities were permitted
00:24:22 permitted nor any discussion about participation in criminal activity however hn 353 reports that he had no personal or sexual relationships and did not take any positions of trust with activists
00:24:34 with activists he did not engage in any criminal activity say for willfully obstructing the highway selling newspapers or tearing down opposition posters at demonstrations he did not know any of
00:24:49 demonstrations he did not know any of his colleagues participating in criminal activity
00:24:52 activity although some involvement in public disorder might have occurred you would not have known if any of them had engaged in sexual activity whilst deployed
00:25:03 deployed the end of hn 353's deployment coincided with the end of his studies which pleased him as he had been offered another police role he believes that he withdrew from the group by making up a story that he was too depressed to take his finals
00:25:18 too depressed to take his finals he was unaware of a 12-month limit on the length of deployments but does not believe that this duration would have allowed sufficient time to enter and exit the group
00:25:28 successfully so that concludes the summary for hn353 i will move on now to hm 351
00:25:40 hn 351 served in the scs from spring 1974
00:25:45 1974 to march 1975 reporting on the international socialists or the is he used the cover name jeff slater publication of his real name is restricted
00:25:58 is restricted he joined special branch in the early 1970s as a detective constable during which time he gained some experience of undercover work he cannot recall how he was selected for the scs
00:26:08 the scs but thinks it was likely that sds managers spoke to him to explain the nature of the work hn 351 did use a deceased child's identity
00:26:21 identity which he notes was a convention at the time although he cannot be he cannot recall being given specific instructions to do so nor the rationale for this practice he used the name and date of birth of the deceased child
00:26:38 the deceased child but no further details from his life he undertook some work in his cover employment and had a cover vehicle and accommodation along with some cover documentation
00:26:49 hn 351 received no formal training although he felt that his prior undercover work and special branch combined with his service in the scs back office provided some
00:27:01 back office provided some preparation he was not given specific instructions about the kind of intelligence to seek although officers could request guidance at the weekly scs meetings
00:27:12 at the weekly scs meetings he states that quote you picked up all sorts of information without knowing whether it would be of use but passed it back anyway that said you had a general understanding of which areas special branch was interested in and would not stray beyond that
00:27:26 beyond that he knew not to act as an agile provocateur from cid training school he states that no tradecraft manual existed to his knowledge
00:27:37 knowledge hn 351 started his deployment in the scs back office and by the end of may 1974 was described as being ready to go into the field however the first report attributed to this officer
00:27:50 this officer dates from several months later than that the 8th of august 1974. the final report attributed to him dates from the 24th of march 1975.
00:28:01 from the 24th of march 1975. the maximum length of his deployment would have mounted to 43 weeks
00:28:10 the majority of the reports attributed to him concern the tottenham branch of is
00:28:14 is hn 351 has not been able to confirm the attribution of these reports stating that he would not have written any of them himself as he provided intelligence orally or via irregular notes
00:28:25 via irregular notes these were typed up by administrative staff and disseminated by his superiors he never saw the finished product and he has been unable to comment on whether any of his reporting was missing
00:28:37 any of his reporting was missing he states that the intelligent he provided may have been used to form composite reports as other officers were also reporting on is
00:28:47 is he was not tasked to infiltrate a particular group at the outset of his deployment but he went to protests and demonstrations where he made contact with activists
00:29:01 with activists he believes that this information would have been relayed to managers at the weekly sds meetings where he would have been instructed to focus on is his only formal group membership was of is
00:29:13 is this group was of interest because they were a subversive group quote organizing to bring about the fall of the state and they would use any means available to achieve this
00:29:25 to achieve this including violence he states that part of the reason he was deployed was to gain information about the number of police needed to manage protests hn 351 goes on to say that he quotes witness plenty of serious public
00:29:39 witness plenty of serious public disorder and violence while serving as an undercover officer and although he cannot recall the specific incidents it would have been
00:29:47 been quote during demonstrations that got out of hand
00:29:50 of hand where he saw severe beatings of policemen by activists an activist beating up members of the public who intervened he also witnessed violence between counter-protest groups
00:30:02 counter-protest groups and saw activists cause damage to property
00:30:06 property he was never involved in any disorder violence or other criminal activity
00:30:13 the only potential violence discussed in the reports attributed to hn 351 occurs following a socialist worker meeting on the 1st of august 1974. is members planned to attend national
00:30:26 is members planned to attend national front demonstration in leicester that month
00:30:29 month and we're considering taking pepper marbles and flour with them
00:30:35 some reports contain employment details about is members and others discuss links between is and trade unions for example a report on the 20th of march 1975
00:30:50 march 1975 identifies a top member as being part of the national union of journalists in his witness statement hn 351 explains that quote special branch would have been interested in employment that was taken up by is members
00:31:02 was taken up by is members because they may have created problems within their workplaces by arranging strikes and the like
00:31:14 a report dated the 22nd of november 1974 states that a finnsbury park is member at a north london aggregate meeting stressed the need for more intervention by s members in industrial support
00:31:25 by s members in industrial support disputes at local factories in reference to this report hn 351 notes that quote it is possible that i was asked to report on the influence is in industrial settings and trade unions but i do not remember this
00:31:38 but i do not remember this he goes on to say that quote i was not tasked to report on trade unions while in the ses and would only have mentioned them if i was concerned that a member of is
00:31:53 was concerned that a member of is would seek to disrupt their legitimate activities and use the trade union to further is's subversive aims he denies joining a union or becoming involved in any union affairs
00:32:04 affairs some reports mention racial or sexual equality campaigning for example a report on the 5th of december 1974 contains discussion about the necessity of appointing a women's industrial organizer
00:32:20 organizer while a report two weeks later notes that members were urged to attend a picket outside a mile and pub where the landlord was exercising quote a pernicious form of the color bar
00:32:31 a pernicious form of the color bar hn 351 states that he was not tasked to report on equality campaigning and cannot say why this information would have been included other reports concern a variety of topics
00:32:44 topics is talks on global political issues discussion of the irish troubles plans to attend protests and educational classes
00:32:53 classes and details of individual branch members two reports from january 1975 contained copies of the north london district is babysitting rotor a report dated the 25th of february 1975
00:33:08 a report dated the 25th of february 1975 provides a list of people who attended a birthday party at a private address
00:33:20 birthday party at a private address most but not all of whom were is members hn 351 notes that although he was not specifically tasked to attend social events
00:33:23 events sometimes it was necessary in order to maintain cover a report dated the 6th of january 1975 identifies jeff slater as the new socialist worker organizer but hn 351 has no recollection of
00:33:36 but hn 351 has no recollection of whether or not he undertook this role he states that he did not take on any positions of trust or form particularly close relationships whilst undercover
00:33:49 whilst undercover which he attributes to the brevity of his deployment he did not engage in any sexual relationships and none were ever discussed in his presence
00:34:03 discussed in his presence hn 351's deployment ended at his request because he found it quote too debilitating and exhausting both mentally and physically however he does not consider his difficulties to have been a reflection of the level of support available
00:34:15 support available and believes that the informal welfare monitoring was adequate for the era asian 351's sds work did have long-term effects on his emotional well-being and mental health
00:34:28 mental health he could not seek help with this due to the secrecy around his work and there were no welfare services available to him within the mps at the time so that concludes the summary for
00:34:39 summary for hm 351
00:34:44 hm 351 in addition to the witness statements and documents for these offices the inquiry is also publishing today documents in relation to hn297 hn 300
00:35:00 hn297 hn 300 and hm13 hn297 had the cover name rick gibson and reported on the southeast london branch of the troops out movement and on big flame analysis of his
00:35:18 and on big flame analysis of his documents can be found at pages 153 to 171 of council to the inquiry's written opening statement for trash one phase two hm 300's cover name was jim pickford he reported on various left-wing groups in the battersea in wansworth area
00:35:32 in the battersea in wansworth area as well as on the anarchist workers association analysis of his documents is at pages 175
00:35:45 175 to 180 of the written opening statement and finally hn 13 used the cover name barry loader and reported on the communist party of england marxist leninist documents relating to his deployment are considered at pages 180 to 184
00:35:58 considered at pages 180 to 184 of the written opening statements
00:36:04 so that concludes the summary's introduction thank you very much we will now break for 10 minutes to enable arrangements to be set up for the resumption of live evidence
00:36:22 good morning everyone we will now take a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please the time is now 10 30 am so we shall reconvene at 10 40 am thank
00:36:38 you
00:58:20 good morning everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you as at the beginning of every live evidential session uh a recording made earlier is going to be
00:58:32 a recording made earlier is going to be played if you're listening to it for the first time please listen carefully
00:58:45 i am conducting this inquiry under a statute
00:58:49 statute the inquiries act 2005 which gives me the power
00:58:52 the power to make orders regulating the conduct of the inquiry including its hearings in the exercise of that power i have made a number of orders which affect what you may
00:59:06 affect what you may and may not do in the hearing rooms and after you leave them breach of any of the orders is a serious matter and may have serious consequences for you
00:59:21 you if i am satisfied that a person may have breached an order i have the power to certify the matter to the high court which will investigate and deal with it as if it had been a contempt of that court if satisfied
00:59:36 a contempt of that court if satisfied that a breach has occurred and merits the imposition of a penalty the high court may impose a severe sanction on the person in breach
00:59:47 breach including a fine imprisonment for up to two years
00:59:48 two years and sequestration of their assets
00:59:59 evidence is going to be given live over screens in the hearing rooms it is strictly prohibited to photograph
01:00:10 strictly prohibited to photograph or record what is shown on the screens or to record what is said by witness or anyone else in the hearing rooms you may bring your mobile telephone into the hearing rooms but you may not use it for any of those purposes
01:00:24 purposes you may use it silently for any other purpose
01:00:28 purpose in particular you may transmit your account of what you have seen and heard in a hearing room to any other person but only once at least
01:00:39 least 10 minutes have elapsed since the event which you are describing took place this restriction has a purpose
01:00:46 purpose in the course of the inquiry i've made orders prohibiting the public disclosure of information for example about the identity of a person for a variety of reasons
01:01:00 variety of reasons these orders must be upheld it is inevitable that whether by accident or design information which i have ordered
01:01:14 information which i have ordered should not be publicly disclosed will sometimes be disclosed in a hearing if and when that happens i will immediately suspend the hearing and make an order prohibiting further disclosure of the information
01:01:25 of the information outside the hearing rooms the consequence will be that no further disclosure of that information may be made by mobile telephone or other portable electronic device
01:01:36 portable electronic device from within the hearing room or by any means
01:01:37 means outside it i am sorry if you find this message alarming it is not intended to be
01:01:49 not intended to be its purpose is simply to ensure that everyone knows the rules which must apply
01:01:51 apply if i am to hear the evidence which i need to enable me to get to the truth about undercover policing
01:01:59 policing you as members of the public are entitled to hear the same public evidence as i will hear and to reach your own conclusions about it the inquiry team will do their best to ensure that you can
01:02:13 can if you have any doubt about the terms of this message or what you may or may not do you should not hesitate to ask one of them and with my help if necessary
01:02:21 necessary they will provide you with the answer
01:02:30 before we begin today's evidential hearing
01:02:34 hearing i would like to thank those of you who are
01:02:37 are tweeting messages outside the hearing room
01:02:40 room about what is going on and is transmitted to it for abiding in a general way with the instruction that you've just heard
01:02:49 heard played but i was told that
01:03:06 played but i was told that a number that did one reason or another get their estimate of 10 minutes wrong and tweeted in one of two instances significantly before the 10 minute period had elapsed 10 minutes has been chosen for a purpose it permits me and the inquiry team
01:03:19 it permits me and the inquiry team to stop breaches of orders that i have made
01:03:20 made from being disclosed outside the hearing room
01:03:31 outside the hearing room it's a necessary control and i would ask please
01:03:35 please everybody who is transmitting to take care
01:03:36 care to allow the 10 minutes to elapse absolutely the last thing i want to do is to have to take steps to enforce that 10-minute period thank you
01:03:50 mr chesson can you hear me
01:03:58 it may be that you're on mute if yes yes i can hear you sorry but no going on to mute is a mistake that um i may i used to make repeatedly and all of us make it first time round
01:04:12 and all of us make it first time round um don't worry about it uh do you wish to swear or to affirm yes then the words of affirmation will be read to you in a moment
01:04:25 thank you chairman good morning mr chester can you hear me
01:04:30 i understand that you would like to affirm yes thank you please repeat after me i do solemnly
01:04:36 solemnly sincerely and truly i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give
01:04:49 shall give that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth
01:04:54 the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing about the truth thank you mr chesson chairman
01:05:06 thank you sir uh mr chesson please could you confirm your full name uh it's richard thomas chesson and are the contents of your witness statement dated the 4th of april 2020 true and correct
01:05:22 of april 2020 true and correct to the best of knowledge yes yes they are
01:05:24 are that puts the whole of your witness statement into evidence and so i will only dwell on
01:05:35 only dwell on certain parts of it now can i start please uh with an overview of your political
01:05:36 political activism you tell us that the overarching aim of your political activity
01:05:44 activity over a lifetime has been to contribute to a better world is that right that's right
01:05:53 right and that you began your journey as a methodist christian socialist where you developed your beliefs in social justice human rights and socialism yes
01:06:04 human rights and socialism yes you then moved into the labour party and worked for the campaign for nuclear disarmament whilst you were living in bedfordshire in the 1960s
01:06:20 bedfordshire in the 1960s yes and then from about 1968 onwards you came
01:06:23 came became much more interested in international issues yes and i moved to london in 1968 and there you became involved with the vietnam solidarity
01:06:40 vietnam solidarity committee and you attended all three of the major vsc demonstrations in october 1967 march 1968 and october 1968
01:06:56 1968 and october 1968 yes and you then became involved in the anti-apartheid movement and the stop the 70 tour is that right yes can you tell us uh in your witness statement that there was an
01:07:07 statement that there was an occasion uh where you joined a pitch invasion
01:07:08 invasion at the oval cricket ground and spread pebbles on the outfield is that right well not on the outfield on the actual pitch itself about 20 of us ran onto the pitch and
01:07:25 about 20 of us ran onto the pitch and our aim was to bring the game to a halt in order that we could engage in discussion with the actual players the south african players and we did that um and after the demonstration had finished we
01:07:41 demonstration had finished we we left can you help me whether that was part of the campaign against the wilf isaacs tour or whether it was part of the campaign against
01:07:49 against the uh forthcoming tour of the south african cricket team yeah it was the w isaac's 11 which like the full south african team was
01:08:01 like the full south african team was entirely white and it was a prelude to the
01:08:01 the tour of the official south african international side the following year and as a member of which group were you participating
01:08:13 participating in that direct action um it was the sort of 70 tour really
01:08:22 you also tell us in your witness statement that you were at one of the rugby matches at twickenham can you help us with whether that was the december 1969 test match or whether it was a january 1970
01:08:37 or whether it was a january 1970 match between south africa and the barbarians i can't really rugby was not a support not a sport but i followed um and i
01:08:49 not a sport but i followed um and i remember going on on one occasion to a rugby match where there was a protest but
01:08:50 but i can't remember which one can you recall the nature of the protests that took place at that match well um it varied i mean people running onto the pitch onto the onto the field and um
01:09:06 onto the onto the field and um actually some smoke bombs were thrown but i was not involved in that thank you you then enrolled at goldsmith college
01:09:17 college in 1970 and set up the socialist society there
01:09:20 there yes there was no socialist society in goldsmiths when i enrolled um i'd been to the llc where my sister had been a student
01:09:31 had been a student and in in in that university there was a conservative society a liberal society no labor society but there was a socialist society because in those days i think there was general disillusionment with the labour government of 6470
01:09:45 government of 6470 and most independent socialists were outside the labour party so i had in mind when i went to goldsmiths college setting up a socialist society
01:09:57 socialist society similar to the one that was in the llc and that you tell us was a democratic organization it was open to all students and staff and you generally held open meetings weekly yes i
01:10:12 meetings weekly yes i i set up a stall myself because no one else was there to do it and i recruited about 70 people uh to the social society on that first day it was a time when there was a great deal of political awareness
01:10:25 awareness um and in fact my future wife was one of the people that i recruited on that day and you also joined the anti-internment league and organized a demonstration
01:10:40 demonstration uh following uh the killings on bloody sunday
01:10:41 sunday on the 30th of january 1972. yes i saw it as a continuation of the activity that i'd already been involved in
01:10:51 in um i shared a flat with several people one of whom was irish and she was very indignant that we were organizing against american troops in vietnam
01:10:59 vietnam but not doing anything about our own british troops in northern ireland and she persuaded me that i should do something
01:11:06 something i met some people from people's democracy on the demonstration in in trafalgar square who were distributing leaflets i got talking to them
01:11:14 them um i ended up helping them distribute the leaflets because i felt their cause was just
01:11:22 was just um so yes i i was i saw my involvement uh
01:11:23 uh in irish politics is very much a continuation of the anti-racist politics that i've been involved in and what were your concerns about internment
01:11:43 it was um it was a power which had been given to the northern ireland government under the special powers act um it was an extreme form of legislation very repressive and in fact one of the leaders
01:11:54 in fact one of the leaders of uh apartheid in south africa that said he would willingly swap um all of his
01:12:03 of his um anti-terrorist powers for one special clause of the um special powers act um so it was introduced in term it was introduced in every decade of the northern ireland state
01:12:15 northern ireland state um and it was introduced again in the 1970s as a response to the troubles that were occurring um it was
01:12:20 was um it was a red it was it wasn't in it was uh it was inflammatory really because it
01:12:34 inflammatory really because it uh it was one of the things that uh the people in the north on the nationalist side
01:12:35 side i'd always felt was one of the most repressive things that they endured and to introduce internment was like a red rag to a bull um and i do think it led to a recruitment to the ira
01:12:47 recruitment to the ira and did that concern you yes uh it was not the direction i felt that uh the british government should allow the northern irish government to go in
01:12:59 government to go in then you tell us that in 1972 you joined the international marxist group
01:13:09 group yes i did um it in some ways i was reluctant to join any of the left groups because i'd been involved in the labour party in the 1960s which is very broad-based coalition
01:13:21 very broad-based coalition when i set up the socialist society i and i
01:13:26 and i envisaged a very broad-based society which would include socialists of all different varieties so it was against it was against the grain for me to join a small left-wing group but in those days uh
01:13:40 left-wing group but in those days uh most people on the left uh were joining these groups and in the end if you didn't join one or other of these groups you tend to get a bit isolated and i was persuaded by some people in the img who i'd known through the vietnam solidarity campaign
01:13:55 through the vietnam solidarity campaign that i should join them because i agreed with them more than more than others and on that basis i i did join uh i was uncertain about whether to join but i did
01:14:11 whether to join but i did um in the end i only lasted for a year in the organization because again um i reacted against being um in a little goldfish political goldfish bowl i prefer to be on the open sea
01:14:23 sea and so just to be clear we're going to come to rick gibson uh in a moment were you a member of the img at any time uh that you knew rick gibson
01:14:36 uh that you knew rick gibson no i i was in the img i think from 72-73 um rick gibson appeared on the scene after the birmingham pub bombings in where they were in november um 1974 and i think he appeared just after then
01:14:52 and i think he appeared just after then you tell us that the troops out movement are commonly known by the acronym tom formed as best you can recall in 1973 but you didn't join the organization immediately
01:15:03 immediately no i i had been ill in in fact i had a period of illness at the time and
01:15:12 and i uh i i left the um i left my course for a year because of that and was i had gone back to it and therefore i was studying for the final year of my degree a bit late
01:15:24 final year of my degree a bit late so i wanted to concentrate on that and i didn't want to get ill again so i had really decided to bow out of active politics a little bit
01:15:37 active politics a little bit and it wasn't until gibson arrived on the scene that um that i got involved again we're going to come back to tom in a lot more detail
01:15:48 come back to tom in a lot more detail in due course but it may help uh to set the scene at this stage to ask a few questions about it as an organization is it right that it had essentially two aims
01:16:00 aims the first was to seek the withdrawal of british
01:16:03 british troops from northern ireland and the second was self-determination for the irish people yes
01:16:09 yes and it had a tier of national organization a tier of london organization and then branches all around the country yes
01:16:25 all around the country yes and that the branches sent delegates the london branches sent delegates to the london meetings and all branches sent delegates to national events is that right yes
01:16:37 national events is that right yes and that the group uh held an annual national conference yes uh it promoted educational activities
01:16:48 activities yes raising awareness and deputations to northern ireland and reports and that sort of thing that's right i never myself went on any of the deportations to
01:17:00 of the deportations to northern ireland but it did do that and also organized demonstrations yeah yeah um occasionally
01:17:08 moving on now to a little bit later in your political life you became very active in the labor committee on ireland is that right yes um and i was i was very uh
01:17:20 um and i was i was very uh very much at home in the labour committee in ireland it was much more broad-based organization that i felt much more at home in than other organizations i belong to previously
01:17:31 previously and you tell us that you acted as the press officer for the labour committee on ireland from approximately the mid 1980s into the early 1990s yes i had been parliamentary labor
01:17:43 yes i had been parliamentary labor candidates uh in the 1983 election um and i'd received quite a lot of publicity through press releases that i put out
01:17:54 put out and this came to the notice of some people in the labour committee in ireland and they invited me to become their press officer and at what stage in your political career did you rejoin the labour party i had rejoined
01:18:06 rejoin the labour party i had rejoined the labour party in 1976 so i've been a member from 1963 to 1968 in bedfordshire when i moved to london um i never really made a conscious decision to resign from the party but i
01:18:26 the party but i i lapsed perhaps if i would have stayed in bedfordshire i would have stayed a member but because i moved to london and got involved in lots of other activities and there was general disillusionment with uh the performance of the labour government of the 60s um it didn't seem priority to rejoin at that time
01:18:35 that time i when we moved from london to the midlands when i took up a grant to do a phd
01:18:45 do a phd i had decided that once we moved i would rejoin
01:18:51 rejoin and i was also inspired to rejoin by what i saw as a growing left-wing movement inside the labour party associated with tony benn
01:19:00 benn uh would it be right to understand that you rejoined the labour party after you had last seen rick gibson that's right yes uh returning
01:19:12 that's right yes uh returning now to more recent years you tell us that the
01:19:15 that the latest chapter of your political activism has been with a group called assist sheffield for the last 17 years which assists asylum seekers and refugees
01:19:26 refugees yes um uh a friend of our a friend of mine and i and one or two other people we organized a conversation club for
01:19:37 we organized a conversation club for um refugees and asylum seekers where they could come break out of their isolation
01:19:43 isolation and learn to speak english better by mixing with english-speaking people and it came to our notice in that conversation club that many of them were completely destitute um
01:19:55 completely destitute um and we then uh investigated why and we learned much more about the asylum system and why this was happening and we decided that really we needed to set up another organization that would raise money for them to pay them a small amount of money each
01:20:06 them a small amount of money each week and eventually to provide them with accommodation um and that was the basis on which we set up assist i think we were conscious of the fact that we were fighting not only destitution
01:20:19 destitution but also racism in our society as well um because all of the refugees and asylum seekers we knew were people of color
01:20:26 color and we felt that there was a lot of prejudice against them so we set it up not knowing how long it would last because we had no idea whether we could sustain it but in fact it's grown to quite a substantial registered charity now
01:20:42 substantial registered charity now it has eight houses where we house asylum seekers it has 300 volunteers and it's become a substantial presence in the city of sheffield
01:20:54 thank you mr chesson with all of that background in mind i'm now going to take you if i may to at the last days of 1974.
01:21:07 at the last days of 1974. at that time you were still a student at goldsmith college weren't you yes is it right that you were a member of the students council yes i was elected to the students council i had been kind of the left
01:21:19 council i had been kind of the left candidate for president of the students union
01:21:22 union but goldsmiths was not a particularly left-wing place on the whole but i did get elected to the student council
01:21:30 council you were a member of the ail but you were not a member of tom
01:21:38 um i had been a member of the anti-internment league earlier um i i'm not not sure the anti-internment league still existed by then
01:21:49 then i think you're absolutely right yes it was it was the true tower moment that had been set up as the main irish campaigning organization you you had been involved with the ail and you weren't actually a member of tom but did there come a point in time when you were contacted
01:22:05 you were contacted by tom uh about a man who called himself rick gibson yes there were there were some of us in goldsmith's college who felt that we ought to be doing more on ireland um
01:22:17 ireland um after the birmingham pub bombings which were a terrible atrocity um some irish people were reporters being attacked in the streets and we felt that things were escalating um out of control of the british
01:22:29 um out of control of the british government really and uh getting worse um and we felt that we ought to be doing more ireland but what we were provoking to
01:22:36 to doing it when someone called rick gibson had written to the national office of the troops out movement
01:22:45 movement and the national office of the troops out movement contacted me and said we have this person who's interested in in joining the troops out movement he's asking if there is a branch in
01:23:00 asking if there is a branch in south east london he's signed on uh as a student for at goldsmiths college and um so
01:23:03 um so you know could you do anything without setting up something that would enable him to be active and and we met together and decided to do that
01:23:18 that can i um show you a document please this is the documented tab one of the hard copy bundle it's ucpi five zeros one two one two two
01:23:40 this is a an intelligence report um from the sds dated the 11th of february 1970 the subject is goldsmith's college
01:23:52 the subject is goldsmith's college and it reads the following information has been received from a reliable source on thursday the 30th of january 1974 a meeting was held by the socialist
01:24:07 a meeting was held by the socialist society of goldsmith's college lewisham way se 14 on the subject why a troops out movement the meeting lasted from 7 p.m
01:24:14 p.m until 9 30 pm and was attended by 45 persons first of all is there an error in the date there is it should that be 30th of january 1975
01:24:30 should that be 30th of january 1975 yes it should can we go now please to paragraph
01:24:31 paragraph five and six
01:24:47 we see a paragraph five that a an ex-paratrooper called mcconnell was the main speaker and then at paragraph six it says the most important item to be discussed was proposed by richard
01:24:58 be discussed was proposed by richard chessom i think it should stay chess and not chesham shouldn't it yes yes it should uh who suggested the frequent misspelling of my name actually it is indeed yes who suggested that a southeast london branch of tom
01:25:14 southeast london branch of tom be formed with representatives coming from all the groups present this was met initially with little enthusiasm but it was eventually decided that an
01:25:25 decided that an informal meeting would take place in one week
01:25:30 week i can't quite read in one week's time with at least one uh appreciative
01:25:37 with at least one representative forgive me of each group being present two questions first of all was rick gibson at that meeting
01:25:50 i think it's likely that he would have been um
01:25:51 been um [Music]
01:25:56 [Music] we hadn't met rick gibson in the students union bar yes uh initially um
01:26:07 yes uh initially um and he was certainly involved uh with us before we organized any public meetings yes because that was my going to be my second question had you had you met rick gibson before the 30th of january 1975.
01:26:13 1975. yes i'm sure we heard um i'm trying i've been trying to remember when we first met rick gibson in in the student union bar because um i think looking back um
01:26:28 um i think looking back um we did meet with him probably in december
01:26:33 december uh but of course it was a bit late then with with term coming to an end to organize any anything public which is why we um delayed doing that until after the term resumed in the
01:26:46 resumed in the in the spring and um that's why the meeting was in january the public meeting
01:26:50 meeting thank you we can take that document down now please you mentioned earlier uh the fact that the birmingham pub bombings occurred on the 21st of november
01:27:07 occurred on the 21st of november 1974 and you suggest in your witness statement a connection between that event
01:27:11 event and the appearance not much later of rick gibson on your scene do you have any basis for that other than the very obvious temporal connection
01:27:26 temporal connection uh it was in retrospect that i think we regarded it as significant once we knew that rick had been um
01:27:37 once we knew that rick had been um an undercover police officer at the time it seemed like a coincidence thank you
01:27:46 there is then a small meeting that takes place on the 6th of february and perhaps we can look at the report of that it's a tab two of the hard copy bundle the reference is
01:27:58 mps-0728678
01:28:07 and if we could go to page two please
01:28:21 this report is dated the 17th of february 1975 a date which i'm going to just ask you to hold in mind please the subject is southeast london tom although in fact the branch didn't exist
01:28:33 exist at this stage did it [Music]
01:28:37 [Music] hadn't actually been set up that's right yes
01:28:40 yes yes we were in the process of organizing that
01:28:45 that and it says paragraph two on thursday the 6th of february 1975 in the students union bar at goldsmith college lewisian way se14 an informal meeting was held to discuss the possibility
01:28:59 possibility of forming a southeast london troops out movement
01:29:00 movement lasted from 8 30 pm until 10 pm and was attended by five persons yes it had been suggested by richard chesson
01:29:13 chesson an ex-member of the img at a tom meeting hell the previous week and then there is discussion about um that if i pick it up
01:29:29 about um that if i pick it up at the bottom of paragraph three it says he had hoped for a representative from each of the extreme left-wing organizations to attend but in the event only he
01:29:36 only he and one other person were present at the start
01:29:40 start to be joined later by three persons from lewisham img who only attended because their own educational class had been cancelled now we don't normally name activists who are not
01:29:52 are not already in the public domain or participating in the inquiry so please bear that in mind when answering
01:30:01 answering but who was the other person present with you
01:30:09 with you at the start of the meeting um i don't really remember i i uh
01:30:15 i i uh i mean we held we we met quite a bit in the students union bar it was a regular meeting place for informal meetings um and i know we had a number of different meetings in the students union bar
01:30:26 bar at that time and different people attended on different occasions if we could scroll down to the bottom of the page please
01:30:41 paragraph five records the person's present
01:30:45 present as being yourself two people whose names are redacted for privacy reasons and the person who we are knowing by the pseudonym mary with whom rick gibson
01:30:57 pseudonym mary with whom rick gibson we are told went on to have a sexual relationship is it your recollection that this was a very small meeting
01:31:17 um this was this was a meeting where was this in the students union bar yeah yes yeah yeah yes um well they were all small meetings in the students union bar they were people who were most committed who we felt would be
01:31:29 who we felt would be most likely to help in setting up a branch
01:31:33 branch and we see that um the reporter there's the name of our clark uh which is rick gibson's real name is it is it fair to say then
01:31:45 real name is it is it fair to say then that um rick gibson had been introduced to mary
01:31:49 to mary from the very earliest stages of his deployment
01:31:51 um
01:31:58 i'm never quite sure when he met mary for the first time um i know that mary's account when i saw her again recently after 50 years um she said that she first met him when she was on a
01:32:10 she was on a socialist stall the socialist uh um
01:32:21 a socialist society stall and she she said that was the first time she met him so
01:32:25 so it wasn't like we introduced her to him it was she met him independently of some of us i see thank you
01:32:32 you could we take that um document down now please
01:32:37 please i asked you to bear in mind the date of that report the 17th of february because it's one of four reports which bear that date going to display
01:32:51 date going to display each of the other three in turn first of all could we have the document which is at tab
01:32:52 at tab three ucpi five zeros one two one three six
01:33:16 this is a report about mary dated the 17th of february and we see that it says a paragraph to mary although not a member of img is actively involved with the group
01:33:31 actively involved with the group in the lewisham and new cross areas and attends education classes run by the organization paragraph three she was born in south africa on privacy and lived in that country until she was 21
01:33:45 until she was 21 she is now a third year teacher training student at goldsmiths college se14 she lives at and we've redacted the address for privacy then follows a physical description and at paragraph six it says mary
01:34:05 and at paragraph six it says mary cannot be identified in special branch records so it would appear from that that um rick gibson had compiled a report about mary
01:34:13 mary who previously had not been identified by special branch can i take it that you were completely
01:34:24 were completely unaware that this was going on at the time
01:34:28 time i was completely unaware of it yes in fact i think i only found out after the event that mary was associating herself with the img
01:34:37 img because of course she she did that long after i ceased to be a member um and in fact i had ceased act of involvement in goldsmith's college as a student at the time mary became
01:34:50 as a student at the time mary became very much more involved it was after i'd ceased to be involved in politics in goldsmiths college that mary herself stood as the left candidate for the
01:34:56 the president of the students union you could we take that down now and could we have up the document at tab 4 which is mps-0728205
01:35:20 and this is a report of the same date about
01:35:25 about you it says paragraph two richard chesson
01:35:30 chesson former img member is currently engaged in trying to form a southeast london branch of
01:35:31 branch of tom he lives at 234 burridge road se18 and works at lewisham public library
01:35:41 library although he intends leaving at the end of march to study full time for his sociology finals in the summer
01:35:48 summer apparently he was a full-time student at goldsmith college until last year but did not finish his course because of ill
01:35:54 ill health then goes on to say identify who you are understood to be cohabiting with and to provide a
01:36:09 physical description of you before we scroll
01:36:15 scroll down can i ask you where it says that you were trying to form a southeast london branch of tom are we to understand from what you've told us already that that was at the instigation of um
01:36:28 at the instigation of um or as a result of rick gibson coming forward
01:36:29 forward and uh expressing an interest yes um when we got the communication from the national term i think we we just felt well if if other
01:36:44 i think we we just felt well if if other people who have not been involved before are expressing interest uh you know we all ready to do something and if we can scroll down now
01:36:56 says that chessum first came to the notice of special branch on the 24th of january 1969 when he contributed an article to black dwarf entitled decent british housewives on the 14th of may 1970 his name and address were taken by police
01:37:08 address were taken by police following a fly posting incident at the oval by members of the southeast london stst on the 4th of february 1972
01:37:23 stst on the 4th of february 1972 he intervened in a scuffle when two men were being arrested for taking and driving away as a result of which one escaped he then described himself as a member of the national council for civil
01:37:37 the national council for civil liberties after a redaction it says he last came to notice on the 16th of november 1973 when it was stated he was living at 234 barrage road and that his sister and then the name redacted had moved
01:37:48 redacted had moved to york uh first of all what is your reaction to reading how much information had been recorded
01:38:05 recorded about your previous political activities well as far as the article in black dwarf is concerned um i was worried when i um saw that i'd come to their notice
01:38:19 saw that i'd come to their notice because of that um i was really worried about what what did i say well i'll be embarrassed by what i said in that article but when the article was dug out by my legal team and i saw it again i was quite surprised i thought it was a well-written article it was a satire on the kind of society we were living in
01:38:36 were living in it even satirized the demonstrators uh that the vietnam demonstration um i think it was printed as a letter with my bedfordshire address at the bottom and i suspect that was because it uh it didn't conform to all the political
01:38:49 political um stances that the people in black dwarf would have liked so they didn't print it as an article they printed it as a letter but my my reaction was that if i came to the notice
01:39:02 the notice of the um there was a special branch because of that it's very worrying because
01:39:05 because there was nothing in in that which should have caused them to uh to be concerned um and it uh i just felt that it was
01:39:20 uh i just felt that it was a mindset on their part that was really quite sinister and dangerous um and that was my reaction to that um i i don't recall a fly posting incident at the oval it was when we ran on the pitch i assume um and with the the so-called scuffle
01:39:37 um and with the the so-called scuffle um uh i had been involved setting up an anti-racist uh organization in in south east london as a consequence of asian people being attacked in the street
01:39:48 attacked in the street and they were hospitalized some of them quite badly and because i've been involved in a lot of these things where there'd been lots of racial attacks but when i saw two white people
01:39:59 but when i saw two white people apparently attacking two african caribbeans in a side street near king's cross tended to assume it was a racial attack and the the man who was with me uh
01:40:13 and the the man who was with me uh we were walking to a political meeting i didn't know who the other man was but we um we uh we assumed it was a racial attack um he got involved and told me to get involved as well
01:40:22 as well i think i'd have been rather more cautious if if he hadn't been with me uh but um we did try and intervene uh and then it turned out that the uh the the white men who we thought were
01:40:40 the the white men who we thought were attacking the african caribbeans were in fact playing close police officers and they were arresting them for attempting to drive and take away a stolen motor vehicle
01:40:46 vehicle so i'm mistaken about the reasons for their their actions but i was very very uh concerned when we got to the police
01:40:59 uh concerned when we got to the police station just how racist the atmosphere in the police station was um the uh the the police constable who had arrested me uh he took us up to the desk
01:41:13 uh he took us up to the desk and and told the sergeant um uh the you've referred to the was trying to
01:41:17 trying to steal a motor vehicle and this character was helping him um and uh the sergeant at the desk who i expected to react against that kind of racist language he said
01:41:28 said take the he said he pointed at me and he said um
01:41:31 said um take him to the interview room and then he said take the down to the cell and there was this constant
01:41:39 constant racist atmosphere and language the whole time i was there it was uncorrected by any senior officer including the inspector who took part in my
01:41:46 my um interrogation my interview um so although we were mistaken i think in in thinking that the motivation of the police uh was
01:41:58 police uh was we didn't know were policemen when we saw them um we were mistaken in thinking that their actions were motivated by racism but they were they certainly displayed a lot of race and
01:42:10 displayed a lot of race and racism when we got to the police station um you've explained very fully this instant in your witness statement and it led ultimately to you being being prosecuted
01:42:21 prosecuted can i ask you did there come a time when you told rick gibson about those events i think i may well have told him yes um i had so many conversations with rick gibson
01:42:34 rick gibson um after meetings of the southeast london branch uh when uh when there was a lot of sectarianism often he and i would stay behind for an hour or two afterwards and chat to each other
01:42:46 other uh about what had happened in the meeting and you know we became quite friendly and i would have i would have told him lots of things yes i think it
01:42:59 told him lots of things yes i think it highly likely that i told him about that can you remember whether it would have been before or after the 17th of february 1975. no i can't remember that um if we could have up now please document it
01:43:16 have up now please document it um tab five which is mps-0728938 and we'll need page two please
01:43:30 this is the the final of the series of four reports uh dated the 17th of february um compiled by detective constable clark and it it reads the following
01:43:44 clark and it it reads the following information has been received from a reliable source privacy privacy is a member of lewisham img
01:43:51 img at present she is employed as a student nurse at privacy hospital privacy it is understood that she cohabits with richard chesson as then a physical description and at paragraph four
01:44:02 paragraph four it says privacy has recently come to notice in connection with lewisham img chessum is the subject of and then it gives
01:44:09 gives a file reference that this report is a report on your then partner who became your wife the following year is that right yes we
01:44:25 the following year is that right yes we we lived together for three years before we were married and for 20 years afterwards
01:44:32 that can be taken down now this may seem like a very obvious question but had you realized on the 17th of february 1975 who rick gibson really was and
01:44:45 really was and what he was reporting about you know would you have had anything to do with him in the setting up of the south east london branch of
01:44:50 branch of tom well obviously not if we'd have realized he wasn't who he said he was we would we would not have had anything to do with him
01:45:06 to do with him let's look now at what rick gibson did do in the setting up of southeast london tom you tell us in your witness statement that he
01:45:15 that he was involved in some of the preparatory activities including for example distributing leaflets
01:45:19 leaflets is that right yes and and we know that there was a meeting to discuss
01:45:34 discuss the possibility of launching the branch perhaps we can call that up so tap 9 and the reference is mps-0728701
01:45:58 if we could go to the second page please we're now at the 24th of march 1975 being the date of the report
01:46:09 report and paragraph two reads on wednesday the 12th of march 1975 a meeting was held at goldsmith college lewisham way se14 to discuss the possibility
01:46:22 se14 to discuss the possibility of forming a south east london branch of the troops out movement all left-wing groups and trades unions
01:46:33 unions had been invited to send representatives the meeting and then if we could go to paragraph four please and picking up at the end of that paragraph it says it was agreed that the group should meet at 8 15
01:46:47 group should meet at 8 15 pm on tuesday the 18th of march at goldsmith college and that richard chesson would contact members
01:46:52 members of the tom executive so do we see here the preparations for launching the new branch of tom
01:47:06 for launching the new branch of tom being taken forward by casting the net wide amongst local f-wing groups and trade unions yes i think we were disappointed at the time that we found it so difficult to get them involved
01:47:20 get them involved and had rick gibson been involved in the preparations for this meeting yes and uh if we go over the page please
01:47:32 you see that amongst those recorded as being in attendance is mary
01:47:38 one gets the impression looking at the papers that you are quite a small group of activists working together uh yourself your partner mary the man who called himself rick
01:47:53 mary the man who called himself rick rick gibson and perhaps a very small number of others is that a fair picture for us to have in mind
01:47:57 mind it is yes as i say we were we were hoping that some of the left-wing groups around would get more involved and in fact they
01:48:05 fact they they did um and i think it's fairly typical of some of the left-wing groups around that they only jump on bandwagons when they're already worth jumping on
01:48:18 worth jumping on winterfell thank you can we go now to what appears to us to be a document which records the inaugural meeting
01:48:30 meeting of the southeast london branch of tom it's a tab 10 and the reference is mps-0728710
01:48:48 and if we could go to page two please
01:49:03 thank you very much it says paragraph two tuesday the 18th of march 1975
01:49:05 1975 a meeting of the newly formed southeast london branch of the troops out movement was held at goldsmiths college lewisham way se
01:49:20 way se 14 the meeting began at 8 30 pm and ended at 10 30 p.m eleven persons attended
01:49:28 attended and richard chesson was the chairperson paragraph three the first item on the agenda was the election of officers the only nominations were rick gibson as secretary and privacy as treasurer
01:49:41 as secretary and privacy as treasurer both of whom were elected it was decided to postpone the election of a student organizer until a member from goldsmiths attended it was then agreed that rick gibson and richard chesson
01:49:53 gibson and richard chesson would attend the liaison committee conference to be held on saturday the 22nd of march at one addison gardens w14 commencing at 2pm
01:50:03 2pm as delegates and privacy as an observer so just to stop there am i right that this is the inaugural meeting of southeast london tom
01:50:21 yes i think that could be described as such
01:50:23 such and uh do you recall sharing it i don't recall it but i'm not surprised that i did i see and we see
01:50:38 i see and we see rick gibson uh being appointed secretary is that correct yes well um some of us who were involved were coming up to our finals
01:50:49 up to our finals and we didn't want to get too committed and being secretary is the most
01:50:58 it involves the most activity of all being the secretary and rick i remember him saying that he was quite prepared to do it he volunteered to do it and uh he uh he also said
01:51:10 and uh he uh he also said that um he had a car um and he could he could he could drive me around to meet up with the people who have been involved in the anti-internment league before
01:51:22 anti-internment league before see if they were willing to be active again
01:51:27 did he take an interest in those people yes i mean many of them were irish of a republican persuasion and we went and knocked on their doors and asked and told them we were setting up
01:51:38 asked and told them we were setting up another organization would they like to be active again and almost uniformly the response was that
01:51:46 that they were worried about being active again because the prevention of terrorism have actually been introduced and lots and lots of irish people were being rounded up and arrested who had not been involved in terrorism but
01:51:57 but they were worried that this was happening in the irish community and they wanted to lie low for a time because they were afraid of being arrested under
01:52:09 arrested under prevention of terrorism act so they said for this reason they wouldn't get involved
01:52:13 involved but of course what they didn't realize was that they were telling this to a police officer and what information other than the contacts with the former ail activists did being secretary
01:52:28 activists did being secretary of the south east london branch of tom give
01:52:28 give rick gibson
01:52:37 uh well if anybody uh contacted us and wanted to join he would be the person that would receive the contact and and follow it up or get someone else to follow it up and would he have access to the membership details of all the members
01:52:54 of the local branch yes at that stage i mean eventually he was get access to the national membership but at that stage it would be just the local members of the local branch we see that one of the first things that
01:53:05 we see that one of the first things that happens that they recorded at the bottom of the paragraph i read out that he's nominated together with you as a delegate to go to the liaison committee conference
01:53:18 i get the impression looking at the document that being
01:53:29 document that being an active member of a branch gives him access to higher tiers of the tom organization as a delegate to various meetings is that fair
01:53:37 that fair yes and it seems to be something that happened
01:53:38 happened straight away yes i think looking back and we didn't know at the time that he was an undercover officer but he must have been
01:53:50 officer but he must have been surprised at the good fortune that he had in being able to uh to get himself into these kind of places so quickly um it was fortuitous from his point of view that uh we were coming up to our finals and
01:54:03 we were coming up to our finals and therefore we were happy for him to be the secretary and uh he had um quite a bit of luck i think um
01:54:11 think um uh in in other respects at a later stage of the organization i would rise through i'm going to be asking about the various activities of the southeast london
01:54:24 activities of the southeast london branch of tom in a moment but just to whilst we've got this document up to look at
01:54:27 look at what was being proposed at this very early stage could we scroll down so we can see the whole of paragraph four and five please
01:54:42 paragraph four says a discussion then took place on which left-wing groups and trade unions should now be informed of the existence of a tom branch in southeast london and whether these groups could affiliate it was finally decided that individuals who were members of other groups could join tom if they wished and that
01:54:57 could join tom if they wished and that their group would be allowed to send one delegate
01:54:58 delegate each one delegate to each meeting it was left to gibson and privacy to compile a mailing list for those groups not represented
01:55:11 for those groups not represented so in short it would appear the group was seeking affiliates and gibson was at the heart of the efforts to contact them is that fair that's fair yes
01:55:22 is that fair that's fair yes richard chesson proposed that a delegation from the branch meet local mps to establish their position on ireland it transpired that one such mp
01:55:33 ireland it transpired that one such mp roland moyle was an under secretary of state at the northern ireland office and privacy from workers fight suggested a picket of his surgery privacy and observer from the south london tom suggested that this item was rather
01:55:47 suggested that this item was rather delicate and advice should be sought from the
01:55:54 from the lcc this was agreed and the subject was placed on the agenda for the next meeting
01:55:58 meeting so do we see there that reaching out to members of parliament to to presumably to lobby them
01:56:02 them was also on the agenda very much so and we also begin to see the beginnings of different points of view within the southeast london
01:56:13 southeast london branch of tom with a member of workers fights expressing a view which wasn't immediately ascended to by others
01:56:32 yes i mean you there were many many discussions and disagreements about tactics and strategy this is normal i think in most organizations
01:56:42 like to ask some general questions now about what the southeast london branch of tom went on to do and how it operated is it right to say that from time to time rick gibson would chair
01:56:58 time rick gibson would chair branch meetings yes and that the early branch meetings took place very often at your home but later on it became normal for them to meet at charlton house
01:57:09 to meet at charlton house yes i think uh once we got charlton house as a venue most meetings were held there
01:57:17 there um but there were some meetings that uh that's uh
01:57:18 that's uh my my flat yes and that rick gibson would have been involved in organizing events
01:57:24 events and producing leaflets yes and that one of the activities of the group was to organize pickets
01:57:40 organize pickets so for example there was a picket of the home of a member of parliament roland moyle on blackheath is that right that's right and uh looking back it's a great interest now because we we picketed outside his house and
01:57:54 we picketed outside his house and rick was very much involved in the organization of that um along with the rest of us and um when we all when we had the picket outside the house some people came out of the house
01:58:07 of the house and invited us in for tea and biscuits um and we went in um roland himself was not there um but they described them themselves as colleagues of his and they asked us lots of questions about
01:58:19 asked us lots of questions about what our views were on the north of ireland and i remember them going around one by one and asking us all if you were in northern ireland which organization would you support
01:58:30 organization would you support um at the time you know we were quite naive i suppose we answered all these questions
01:58:38 questions but looking back i think uh it's highly likely
01:58:40 likely that those people were um part of the state that was interested in our activities and knowing as we now know that rick was an undercover police officer
01:58:54 undercover police officer um he may have tipped them off to be there so that this all good this could all take place um it's i know it's speculation but it seems quite plausible that this was all well organized by people that we had no idea whether
01:59:08 people that we had no idea whether it was a secret state i'd like to show you
01:59:08 you a report about a picket outside
01:59:19 a report about a picket outside roland moyle's home it's a tab 36 of the hard copy bundle the reference is [Music]
01:59:28 mps-0728723
01:59:42 thank you stated the 22nd of july 1975 and paragraph two reads as a finale to its week of action the southeast london branch of the troops out movement
01:59:53 branch of the troops out movement held an open-air rally on sunday the 20th of july opposite the home of roland moyle mp under secretary of state for northern ireland
02:00:03 ireland there are two privacy redactions a maximum
02:00:06 maximum at any one time of 20 persons participated the majority of whom stayed for only a brief period at one stage a delegation attempted to see the mp
02:00:17 see the mp but in the event only privacy was allowed to the front door of his house where upon roland moyle refused to speak to him the picket lasted from 2pm until 4pm and amongst those who
02:00:33 4pm and amongst those who are listed as taking part are rick gibson
02:00:34 gibson and yourself
02:00:43 now this report obviously isn't uh doesn't accord with the account that uh you have just recalled can you recall whether or not there was more than one picket outside roland moyle's
02:00:58 picket outside roland moyle's house i don't remember them being any more than one and certainly not the intention was not to hold a rally it was a vigil um so i don't recognize this report at all
02:01:13 this report at all and in so far as it says that uh roland moyle was present but refused to speak to a solitary person allowed to the door
02:01:25 solitary person allowed to the door that obviously doesn't accord with your recollection now can you help us with how strong your recollection now is i have very strong recollection of it because
02:01:36 because it deemed at the time that it was quite a surprise to be invited into the house then there's i think there was about half a dozen of us went into the house
02:01:48 half a dozen of us went into the house and we all we were we were all asked who we supported and if we were in northern ireland and we all gave different answers um i remember it very clearly
02:02:02 thank you could we take that document down please
02:02:10 is it right that another activity that south east london tom was involved in was fly posting
02:02:23 um on on one or two occasions yes and that rick gibson took part in that yes um i remember that um he and a woman called olivier and myself would agree to do it on one occasion and rick and olivier came to
02:02:36 came to my flat in the evening to pick me up and um
02:02:39 um i had one of the migraines which i occasionally had and i was in newfound state to do it so i told them i'm very sorry but i'm just not well enough um i was in bed at the time and i went to answer the door
02:02:51 door and i you know i felt like lying in a darkened room so i couldn't i couldn't go with them but they went off and
02:03:01 off and i i was given to understand that they had carried out the flight bursting and is another activity which rick gibson took part in was attending the greenwich trade council with you
02:03:13 yes i think it was something we did once or twice
02:03:17 or twice and the could you assist us with the nature of the trades council well there's a trades council was a trades council in most areas
02:03:30 trades council in most areas and they were composed of delegates from all the different trade unions in the area
02:03:35 area and they they acted on behalf of the trade unions in the area i remember the president of greenwich trades council was very sympathetic to us and supported us
02:03:48 us and supported us and was the purpose of your meetings to essentially lobby them to advance your cause
02:03:52 cause it was yes and to see what action they could take on behalf of the cause and have discussions with them about that thank you so would now be a convenient moment to take our morning break
02:04:07 certainly it would um we have a 15 minute break now will you resume your evidence after 50 minutes please
02:04:20 good morning everyone we will now take a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please the time is now 11 45 am so we shall reconvene at 12 pm thank
02:04:36 you
02:18:15 good afternoon everyone and welcome back i'll hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman mr bob thank you sir mr chesson uh we were looking at rick gibson's
02:18:27 uh we were looking at rick gibson's activities in the early days of the southeast london branch of
02:18:40 southeast london branch of tom i'd like to show you a document um about a public meeting it's a tap 23 it's mps nps-0728 681
02:18:43 once it's up if we could have page three
02:18:50 please
02:18:59 dated 5th of june 1975 and paragraph 2 reads the southeast london branch of the troops out movement held their first public meeting on wednesday the 21st of may 1975
02:19:13 on wednesday the 21st of may 1975 charlton house charlton village se7 the meeting which was entitled the labour movement and ireland attracted an audience of 45 persons and began at 8 p.m
02:19:25 p.m ending at about 9 45 is it right that this was the first public meeting of the new branch
02:19:36 um it it probably would have been if you don't count the public meetings we held in goldsmiths college um if they're classified as being meetings held by the socialist society rather than the local south east london branch then yes
02:19:48 branch then yes thank you paragraph three compared with recent public meetings held by both south and north london branches of tom which in terms of numbers were both disasters
02:19:56 disasters this particular meeting was generally regarded as being an unqualified success mainly because of good local publicity much of the credit for this must go
02:20:09 much of the credit for this must go to both richard chessom and rick gibson who spent a considerable time in publicizing the meeting in the local area and large numbers of the labor movement
02:20:16 movement albeit members of is and img were present in the audience is it right to say
02:20:23 to say that you and rick gibson had done a great deal to publicize this meeting
02:20:29 meeting yes we heard and um our visits to the greenwich trades council were all part of that
02:20:35 of that and we can see just at the very bottom of the page that the meeting was chaired by
02:20:39 by rick gibson is that right it's not something i remember but it may well have been thank you and if we can go over the page now please to paragraph
02:20:54 now please to paragraph seven and paragraph seven it says the following persons were identified as having been present in a number of names including rick gibson's and your own and then a lot that we've had to um redact for privacy reasons
02:21:10 redact for privacy reasons one gets the impression reading this document
02:21:14 document mr chessom that rick gibson has been very active in seeking to attract people to this meeting
02:21:27 meeting and then when they attend he reports their their attendance to special branch
02:21:36 is that a fair impression or is there anything you can tell us that would gain say it no that's that's fair i mean uh as secretary of branch he would obviously be that would be
02:21:47 be that would be would be his job to try and get as many people there as possible um and in his other wearing his other hat
02:21:55 hat as an undercover police officer he would be reporting into special branch thank you can we take that down please and can we have up instead tab 26 which is mps dasho six 728
02:22:07 mps dasho six 728 eight
02:22:19 and this is a report dated the 23rd of june
02:22:20 june 1975 paragraph two reads members of the southeast london branch of the troops out movement attended a labour party meeting on the evening
02:22:31 evening of tuesday the 17th of june 1975 at alderwood school raynham close se9 which dealt with the forthcoming by-election in west woolwich
02:22:43 by-election in west woolwich no disorder occurred and members of tom confined themselves to asking the labor candidate
02:22:53 candidate his views on ireland and the withdrawal of troops new and rich gibson are both listed as being present
02:23:00 present can you remember this event um i can't remember it but it's the kind of thing that we did at the time
02:23:11 thing that we did at the time um it states that no disorder occurred would that be right well we would have no interest in incurring disorder our objective would have been to try and persuade
02:23:23 persuade people in the labour party to support us yes well that takes me to my next question was there ever any possibility of public disorder at this event
02:23:34 of public disorder at this event i wouldn't have thought so thank you could we take that down please that you've described rick gibson as being
02:23:39 being very committed enthusiastic and willing in your witness statement uh is that fair yes
02:23:50 uh is that fair yes i'd like to explore now your relationship personally with rick gibson
02:24:03 relationship personally with rick gibson you obviously attended meetings together yes and you would drink and have a chat yes um usually after meetings you went to see charlton athletic play football together yes i i think it was he who suggested that i
02:24:14 think it was he who suggested that i think we went on a couple of occasions and so how would you describe your the level of friendship that you had with rick gibson uh well
02:24:28 rick gibson uh well i think we developed a kind of a bond because we were both opposed or we seemed to be opposed to the sectarianism that was existing within the troops out movement
02:24:40 within the troops out movement uh we seem to share a number of um of uh of views together uh it was it was relaxing to be able to sit and discuss with somebody who was not involved in one of the other left-wing groups
02:24:51 groups and to be able to discuss these things freely
02:24:57 freely i i didn't obviously i had no idea that i was discussing it with an undercover police officer
02:25:01 did you regard him as somebody who could be relied upon
02:25:08 in terms of his efficiency as a branch secretary yes and he seemed to be reliably anti-sectarian
02:25:19 can you describe his relationship with a senior figure in the movement jerry lawless um well of course i knew jerry lawlers from the days of the anti-internment league
02:25:30 league which is why when we set up the troops out movement branch in south east london i got joey to come and speak at the local branch meeting um rick didn't know him obviously until he got involved in
02:25:44 he got involved in nationally in in the troops out movement itself
02:25:49 itself um i suspect he got to know him gradually
02:25:49 gradually over a period of time i knew him before
02:25:57 and did rick gibson align himself with jerry lawless within tom well yes he did i mean the uh some of the secretary left groups uh dismissed us
02:26:12 us uh uh as the lawless grouping which was a pejorative term we've regarded ourselves as just independence in the troops out movement um but there was an informal alliance at a national level
02:26:23 national level uh between jerry lawless and others and and big frame uh because we we jointly had an interest in trying to stop sectarians taking over the organization
02:26:34 the organization um what i suppose what the other thing that united us um in in around lawless was the fact not only he was very very committed on ireland
02:26:44 ireland um and had no acts to grind the terms of another left-wing group but he was a former member of the img and
02:26:52 and a number of us who uh were independents in the
02:26:55 in the uh troops out movement were also former members of the img so we had that common historical background can you help us uh with who you're referring to when you use the phrase the sectarians
02:27:07 when you use the phrase the sectarians um well all left-wing organizations all the trust kids organizations tend to be sectarian
02:27:16 sectarian more some more so than others but it was in particular the workers fight group and the revolutionary communist group who we experienced has been the most disruptive and when you say disruptive does that
02:27:27 and when you say disruptive does that mean trying to essentially take over and exert control over your branch yes and also causing division in different branches
02:27:38 in terms of coming back to rick gibson and how he behaved how would you describe his behavior within the group
02:27:57 within the southeast london group yes well he tried to befriend everybody and laid back and relaxed [Music]
02:27:59 [Music] he gave the impression of somebody who just kept clear of sectarianism and went about
02:28:05 about being an efficient secretary
02:28:13 as we've seen from the documents you were living at the time at 2 3 4 burridge road how frequent a visitor was rick gibson to your home he came quite frequently sometimes we had troops at movement meetings there
02:28:29 had troops at movement meetings there those others who have been members of different
02:28:33 different far left organizations marxist organizations and who had left them we felt the need to have
02:28:40 to have further discussion amongst ourselves and we organized what we called marxist discussion groups at 234 barrage road
02:28:49 road and uh people who came were people who no longer belong to any of the left groups but were still marxists of one kind or another and rick attended some of those meetings as well
02:28:58 as well and i i do recall that he came on some social occasions because we got to know him so well
02:29:09 him so well was there ever any consideration of him moving in to 234 barrage road not until right towards the end of
02:29:20 our stay in london we my girlfriend and i we shared a flat with several other students usually it wasn't just the two of us and um there was um
02:29:34 and um there was um comings and goings some some students left and then they were replaced by others
02:29:37 others and towards the end of our time in london
02:29:40 london rick did say to me well if ever there's a vacancy
02:29:43 a vacancy in your flat he said i might be interested uh that was as far as it went but of course then we left london thank you i'd like to move now away
02:30:01 thank you i'd like to move now away from the southeast london branch to rick gibson's rise through up upwards within tom first of all it's right isn't it that he played a role in organizing tom's um
02:30:12 in organizing tom's um activities to mark the anniversary of bloody sunday in 1976 yes there was a plan there was a bloody sunday anniversary march every year
02:30:27 sunday anniversary march every year can we start please by looking at the document at tab 59 which is ucpr
02:30:51 thank you this is a report dated the 13th
02:30:52 13th of november 1975. paragraph two that reads the organizing
02:31:05 paragraph two that reads the organizing committee of the troops out movement met at university of london union mallet street wc2 between 6 30 and 8 p.m on friday the 7th of november 1975.
02:31:16 november 1975. in addition to seven members of the committee
02:31:20 committee both privacy and privacy privacy were present
02:31:22 present paragraph three the only item to be discussed was the suggestion by the ad hoc committee
02:31:34 hoc committee for the bloody sunday demonstration that a pre-rally mobilization should be arranged
02:31:35 arranged for december paragraph four the members of the organizing committee were bitterly divided on the subject but the proposal was eventually accepted
02:31:52 proposal was eventually accepted by three votes to two two persons having abstained
02:31:58 if we scroll down further
02:32:06 jerry lawless and rick gibson are both present
02:32:10 present can you remember whether you were present at this meeting no i wasn't uh you can't help us therefore with with the nitty-gritty but what stands out from this report at paragraph
02:32:22 paragraph four is the fact that there was a division of opinion about an aspect of the organization um for the upcoming
02:32:34 um for the upcoming commemoration of bloody sunday um which was subject to a very narrow vote are you able to help us at all with whether rick gibson influenced the outcome of that vote
02:32:50 influenced the outcome of that vote well i wouldn't i wouldn't know that i know that um i know that the img were very involved in all of that and jerry as a former member of the ing uh was concerned that they were trying to take over
02:33:01 take over the organization of ireland activities and he saw them as a bit of a rival to his running of the troops out movement so it may all have been related to that
02:33:13 so it may all have been related to that thank you if we could take that down now please and go to tab 67 which is mps-0728
02:33:31 and we see from paragraph 2 that this is a report about the london coordinating committee of the troops out movement which met at the university of london union malik street on the 12th of december 1975
02:33:47 on the 12th of december 1975 uh at half past seven for two and a half hours
02:33:50 hours jerry lawless chaired the meeting and 17 people are recorded as present paragraph three reads the first item of interest was the bloody sunday demonstration and rally on the 1st of february 1976
02:34:04 february 1976 it was established that the only definite speaker
02:34:14 definite speaker was eamonn mccann privacy suggested that tom acquired the services of the mayday theater group who performed a play on northern ireland and a group called the men of no property who had released an lp
02:34:24 an lp called england's vietnam negotiations were still in progress for the appearance of john lennon a rally subcommittee with zen set up
02:34:32 up consisting of privacy convener jerry lawless
02:34:33 lawless privacy privacy and rick gibson you are not named on the list of attendees so can i take it you can't help us with the detail
02:34:49 help us with the detail that's right but is it right to your knowledge
02:34:52 knowledge that rick gibson was a member of the subcommittee for this demonstration yes he got involved in the national organization in a way that i didn't at that stage
02:35:06 didn't at that stage and that included for example trying to attract high-profile speakers for the event yes could we take that document down please and go to tab 69 which is mps-0728-774
02:35:32 and this is a report dated the 20th of january 1976. paragraph 2 tells us the london coordinating committee of the troops out movement
02:35:49 movement held its first meeting since christmas on friday the 9th of january 1976 at friends international center torrington place from 7 45 until 10 pm the meeting was chaired by privacy was attended by 19 persons
02:36:04 was attended by 19 persons although a lengthy agenda had been drawn up by the secretariat which had met prior to the meeting the entire proceedings apart from some minor matters were devoted to the tom rally
02:36:17 rally to be held in hammersmith palais on sunday the 1st of february 1976 following the bloody sunday demonstration and we'll be coming back to the hammersmith palais in a moment but for the meantime paragraph
02:36:29 paragraph four jerry lawless was obliged to report that
02:36:33 that of all the speakers he had contacted only two were probables eamonn mccann and bernadette mikulski and even the latter had not been definitely confirmed privacy of the irish tgwu
02:36:46 privacy of the irish tgwu privacy privacy president of the new york city council and john lennon the pop star had all uh declined so we get an update there don't we on on the speakers for that meeting yes and uh
02:37:01 for that meeting yes and uh familiar speakers i remember eamon and bernadette which of speak as we had at the rally of the ant internment league way back in the early 70s
02:37:10 70s they were perennials and if we go to paragraph
02:37:13 paragraph five there's in spite of the length of time taken to discuss these items virtually everything was referred to the rally committee which in addition to jerry lawless rig gibson privacy privacy and privacy
02:37:26 gibson privacy privacy and privacy was expanded to include privacy privacy and privacy privacy's latest girlfriend so we see that rick gibson continued to sit on that committee which was expanding in size yes paragraph six
02:37:41 yes paragraph six in short in the short period of time remaining
02:37:45 remaining privacy criticized privacy that tom press officer for his inactivity she proposed he'd be replaced by a press committee
02:37:51 committee which he would convene rick gibson and privacy went further and insisted on privacy's removal
02:38:02 privacy's removal from the secretariat for persistently being absent from meetings this subject however was referred to the next secretariat meeting can you help us at all with the which rick gibson took
02:38:18 with the which rick gibson took about the then extant press officer and whether he did as recorded here actively seek that person's removal from
02:38:26 from office i can't really um i i wasn't involved in the national organization at that time he was
02:38:40 at that time he was um what surprises me is the extent to which he was really proactive in these reports in trying to make things happen rather than just being one of a number of people involved
02:38:54 of people involved thank you can we take that down now please and can we go to tab 72 which is mps 0728 777
02:39:14 0728 777 thank you if we could uh pick that up at paragraph
02:39:17 paragraph two it's the report dated the fourth of february 1976. the secretariat of the troops out movement met at the university of london union maleb street from 7 30 to 8 30 on friday the 16th
02:39:34 from 7 30 to 8 30 on friday the 16th of january 1976. this particular meeting included the national offices of the troops out movement with the exception of privacy
02:39:45 the exception of privacy and was chaired by privacy we know that rick gibson is recorded as attending this meeting as the london organizer comma secretariat
02:39:56 organizer comma secretariat are we seeing here rick gibson beginning to rub shoulders with the most senior uh people within tom yes and that's nationally yes paragraph three if we could have the whole of that paragraph up please
02:40:12 thank you the cancellation of the movement's booking of hammersmith palais for its bloody sunday rally on the 1st of february was the first item on the agenda
02:40:23 agenda following a lengthy discussion it was agreed that legal advice should be sought on the matter jerry lawless proposed that at some time in the future possibly just prior to the to february
02:40:35 possibly just prior to the to february the first it might be necessary to call a press conference to explain the reasons why the use of the hall had been denied
02:40:46 the hall had been denied it was a general feeling of the meeting that the police were responsible for this action and forgetting the north west london branch of tom band from the crown public house in cricklewood
02:41:01 public house in cricklewood the first question i've got for you is about the booking of the hammersmith palais can you explain to us what happened
02:41:06 happened i can't really because this was all done at a national level and i mean i was not involved in national level at the time did you become aware that plans for the bloody sunday rally
02:41:17 bloody sunday rally uh were being disrupted by the cancellation of the booking of the hammersmith palace yes yes we all heard about that and uh i must say it it
02:41:30 and uh i must say it it it reminded me of the time in the anti-internment league in the earlier 70s when in fact we did have um information that the special branch had gone round to various public houses
02:41:43 houses and told the publicans there that we were an illegal organization and they cancelled our bookings that happened in the days of the anti-internment league and we were told by the publicans concerned the special branches visited
02:41:55 concerned the special branches visited them and told them that we were illegal which of course was not true so um when this happened when uh the hammersmith palais was uh they cancelled the booking for us then
02:42:07 cancelled the booking for us then um we all suspected that it was a similar kind of situation and now that you know that rick gibson was in fact an undercover police officer do you have any concerns
02:42:18 do you have any concerns um about the cancellation of the hammersmith palais booking
02:42:22 well yes
02:42:25 he could well have been involved in um
02:42:31 putting doubts in the mind of the people running the hammersmith of course can we take down tab 72 please and could we have up in its place tab 73 mps-8728779
02:42:52 thank you this is a report dated the 11th of february 1976 from the sds it's again a meeting of the london coordinating committee
02:43:06 coordinating committee of tom could we have paragraph five please
02:43:16 and that reads the question of electing a tom press officer was again raised and it was agreed in principle that a press committee
02:43:23 committee should be elected rather than an individual officer the first function of such a committee would be to prepare a comprehensive statement
02:43:34 statement about the general harassment of tom by the state
02:43:37 the state especially the denial of indoor public halls
02:43:46 halls such as the hammersmith palais privacy rick gibson privacy and privacy were then chosen to be members of the committee
02:43:50 committee having motivated this strategy jerry lawless
02:43:50 lawless refused to serve on the committee in so far as you are able to help us and i do appreciate you are not a party to the particular decisions
02:44:05 a party to the particular decisions it is what's happening uh that the old press officer uh is losing office being replaced by a committee
02:44:13 committee and an undercover police officer rick gibson
02:44:14 gibson is a part of that committee we we heard all about the divisions over the press
02:44:20 the press um uh second hand um but we were aware that there were problems um the exact nature of the problems was not um
02:44:30 um well known to us at local level i see and now that you do know that rick gibson was an undercover police officer
02:44:45 gibson was an undercover police officer do you have any concerns about the fact that the committee um whose first function
02:44:50 function was to prepare a comprehensive statement about the general harassment of tom by the state included an undercover police officer
02:45:02 yes short answer would you like to expand on that please
02:45:09 well given that he was an undercover police officer um he clearly didn't have the welfare of the organization at heart
02:45:20 of the organization at heart and his motives were quite different and we have no means of knowing uh the extent to which he was sabotaging the organization more generally and how this was part of that strategy
02:45:38 thank you that can be taken down now more general questions about the bloody sunday
02:45:44 sunday march would rick gibson have had a role in organizing things like the stewards speakers and the planning generally of that meeting he would have been involved in everything
02:45:56 everything and privy to all the details yes was there any disorder at the march i don't remember any
02:46:12 we've seen from the earlier documents that you and rick gibson were often delegated
02:46:17 delegated to attend london events of tom is it right that uh rick gibson was also delegated on occasions to national level events
02:46:30 yes and was he treated as a trusted comrade
02:46:37 uh he wouldn't have been nominated if he wasn't
02:46:42 i'd now like to focus on some particular posts
02:46:46 posts that he obtained we've seen some references to the london coordinating uh committee and he was elected to the london
02:47:00 and he was elected to the london coordinating committee wasn't he yes uh perhaps we could look at tab 48 mps-072875
02:47:14 just to help refresh your memory and locators in time this is a report dated the 25th of september
02:47:23 september 1975. paragraph two says the london coordinating committee of the troops out movement met at the friends international center torrington plays wc-1 on friday the 19th
02:47:41 plays wc-1 on friday the 19th of september from 9 30 to 10 15 about 32 persons attended the meeting with chair by privacy the first item discussed was a proposal by both north and north west london branches of tom that the number of persons on the organizing committee be increased by
02:47:59 organizing committee be increased by two this and a proposal that privacy and rick gibson be elected to the committee was passed a three-man standing orders committee for the national delegate conference comprising privacy privacy and probably privacy was approved
02:48:13 privacy was approved there followed ratification of branches in harrow and hempstead so we're seeing that in less than a year after his arrival on the scene he's voted
02:48:26 voted on to the london coordinating committee is that right yes um could you help us with the significance of the london coordinating committee to tom
02:48:38 well it was the uh coordinating committee that um really organized all the activities of the branches um it would be responsible for
02:48:53 um it would be responsible for dealing with any problems that arose in the branches and trying to settle them it was it was the organizing committee that uh
02:49:04 that uh really had oversight of everything that was happening in london did it have any role in setting the campaigning priorities for london branches of tom yes it would have done
02:49:20 and did it take reports from london branches of tom yes and
02:49:25 yes and would gibson on the lcc have had an opportunity to have a say over the affairs of london branches
02:49:44 yes and over the setting of the strategic priorities for the london branches yes
02:49:54 here's a it follows from his appointment um
02:50:01 um that that may have taken an opportunity from someone else do you know whether there was any competition for the post uh the post on the london coordinating committee uh which particular post are you talking about
02:50:13 particular post are you talking about the one that's the one that we look at the moment i'm asking about this one about the appointment we've just seen do you know whether that was
02:50:24 you know whether that was something that anybody else any genuine campaigner would have liked to have occupied
02:50:34 occupied well um i know that there was a time when they wanted a london organizer and i was approached by both jerry lawless
02:50:42 lawless and by a senior member of big flame to ask me if i would be interested and i was given to understand from both of them
02:50:45 them that if i was interested they would support me in that role
02:50:51 um what followed after that was a a vote in the local southeast london branch to
02:51:00 branch to elect two delegates to the london coordinating committee rick was involved rick was um rick was elected and i wasn't
02:51:14 elected and i wasn't and he got two more votes than me in the in the southeast london branch meeting and i think this took um the national people a bit by surprise that i wasn't elected by my local branch onto the
02:51:24 the uh london coordinating committee just to be clear are we talking about is does this relate to the appointment um which is recorded in the document on the screen or not
02:51:34 this was september 75
02:51:46 this was talking about two extra people being elected to a committee wasn't it
02:51:51 um
02:52:01 i was asked if i wanted to be the london um organizer and in fact rick himself became the london organizer thank you we'll we'll come back to the line yes yeah yes i just wanted to be clear thank you
02:52:13 i just wanted to be clear thank you whilst we're with the lcc could we take that document down please and bring up tab 82
02:52:21 ucpi609684
02:52:30 please again i do appreciate that you weren't on um
02:52:36 on um at these committees uh and there may be a limit to how far you can help us but just in case this is a report dated the 12th of may 1976.
02:52:44 1976. it's a meeting of the london coordinating committee on the 23rd of april 1976 at the university of london union and i'm going to a light upon a
02:52:58 union and i'm going to a light upon a number of paragraphs which refer to rick gibson
02:52:59 gibson first of all paragraph three and i'm afraid it's a very poor quality document but we'll do our best following the acceptance of the previous
02:53:11 following the acceptance of the previous meetings minutes rick gibson convener of the secretariat reported on the arrangements to date for the tom
02:53:18 the tom national delegate conference he said that the conference would be held from 11am on saturday the 15th to 4 p.m on sunday the 16th of may
02:53:31 to 4 p.m on sunday the 16th of may 1976 at the city of london polytechnic white chapel road e1 and that's subject to the ratification of that meeting the secretariat recommended that there be a three-person standing
02:53:44 that there be a three-person standing orders committee comprising privacy and privacy
02:53:48 privacy this was accepted providing that privacy who was not present agreed then if we can go down to paragraph five please
02:54:03 next came reports from privacy and rick gibson on a fringe meeting set up by the troops out movement at the labour party young socialist conference in blackpool privacy said
02:54:14 conference in blackpool privacy said that the meeting had been organized by the socialist charter and that in spite of growth sectarianism from privacy towards both privacy and tom policies
02:54:26 policies the meeting had been successful gibson severely
02:54:30 severely criticized privacy for his behavior and said that tom members should not attack each other at open meetings over the page
02:54:44 thank you it was then decided that gibson
02:54:45 gibson privacy and privacy should prepare a document on the blackpool meeting for circulation to tom branches and inclusion in the left wing press
02:54:58 and inclusion in the left wing press the final item was a short report on the tom
02:55:02 tom press committee from rick gibson but nothing of note was said
02:55:06 now it would appear from this report
02:55:14 put bluntly that rick gibson is in the thick of it from talking to him did you get the impression that he was a very active member of the london coordinating committee
02:55:28 london coordinating committee well very much so because he moved from the london coordinating committee and long being london organizers to become convener of the national secretariat
02:55:41 convener of the national secretariat and he was obviously moving up and up in the organization and he would he would have been trusted by loris and people in the leadership and for that reason he would have been given a lot of responsibility and the the reference we see to him
02:55:55 and the the reference we see to him severely criticizing somebody for their behavior
02:55:59 behavior and attacking another member of tom in public
02:56:07 public was he the taking of a position and the criticism of others something that you ever
02:56:07 ever experienced uh rick gibson doing well i understand that one of the people he attacked was someone called sean mcganner
02:56:19 mcganner who was in fact the founder and leader of workers fight and a bitter enemy of jerry lawless so in attacking him he would have carried favor with lawless and he would have established more
02:56:30 and he would have established more credentials even more with lawless so there may have been um a reason for this kind of attack on particular individuals
02:56:44 individuals thank you um can we take that document down please and can we turn now the question of the post of london
02:56:54 london organizer i'd like to start with tab 55 which is mps-0728736
02:57:14 this is a meeting of the organizing committee
02:57:22 committee of toms which took place on the 20th of october and is reported on on the 28th of october a paragraph four it reads jerry lawless then proposed that nominations for the vacant national officer posts
02:57:34 officer posts not filled at the recent national delegate conference should be delayed for two weeks to allow branches time to discuss the matter the only exception to this was the position of london organizer
02:57:46 position of london organizer and it was agreed that rick gibson should stand for this post is this the post that you were talking
02:57:55 talking about a little while ago yes um i had i had already told people that um i wish to withdraw
02:58:07 people that um i wish to withdraw and the reason i wish to withdraw was a personal reason really because a friend of mine was also wanting to stand for it and jerry lawless approached me
02:58:20 lawless approached me and um said some very derogatory things about her
02:58:23 about her and said that he would support me against her um and i was very friendly with her and her partner at the time and i began to feel that i was a bit compromised and that i this would um
02:58:38 and that i this would um compromise my friendship with with that couple
02:58:42 couple so i began to feel that i was best withdrawing really and i think she withdrew too uh and uh after this had happened i explained this to the member of big flame who had approached me about doing the
02:58:56 who had approached me about doing the job and said that i was worried about this
02:58:57 this and then uh sometime after that he approached me again he said well don't worry about it because um rick gibson has agreed to do it
02:59:14 thank you can we take that document down now and could we have up in its place please mps-0728762
02:59:28 and if we thank you if we look at paragraph
02:59:31 paragraph two we'll see that this is a report about a meeting on the 7th of november 1975 at the university of london union of the all london troops out
02:59:45 of the all london troops out movement and it was to discuss the setting up of a secretariat to replace the tom organizing committee resolution to that effect had been passed at the recent tom national delegate conference could you
02:59:57 national delegate conference could you help us with this reorganization please
03:00:05 again i was not involved in it at national level
03:00:11 simply because um i had not been elected to the
03:00:14 to the london coordinating committee and didn't get involved anymore at national level um so i you know i heard about all these things that second hand i wasn't clear uh the exact reasons for this reorganization
03:00:30 this reorganization but was it a significant reorganization of tom
03:00:31 of tom i would assume that it was a reorganization to make it more effective and if we can go down now please to paragraph five
03:00:49 next came recommendations for the remaining national officers privacy was proposed as literature officer and privacy as parliamentary organizer there were two nominations for labour party organizer
03:01:00 party organizer privacy and privacy and after lengthy discussion rick gibson was selected to stand for the post of london organizer it's right isn't it that he went on to be to be the london organizer yes yes um could you help us with
03:01:15 yes yes um could you help us with what information that post would have given him access to
03:01:23 well i think we answered it really in on my answer for previous question he would have known everything that was happening in london branch
03:01:30 branch um he would have had an overview of all of that
03:01:32 of that information about um divisions within different branches would have come to him
03:01:39 him um he would have been partly responsible for uh trying to sort them all out and uh he would also have been involved in the strategy for london
03:01:50 in the strategy for london and would he have had access and the ear of national organizers yes
03:01:57 and would he have had access to any legal advice that was being taken at a london level he would have done if any legal advice was being taken
03:02:09 was being taken and we we saw earlier the reference to a desire to take legal advice about the cancellation of the hammersmith palais is that is that the sort of thing that might he might have been privy to yes
03:02:27 he went on to national level and in particular to become the convener of the national offices of the secretariat didn't he yes are you able to assist us with what additional information that that post would have given him
03:02:39 would have given him well he had previously had oversight of the whole london organization that would have given him oversight of the national organization
03:02:51 oversight of the national organization and he would have been um in charge of the names and addresses of people all over the country who have access to that database uh and would he
03:03:06 database uh and would he have been privy essentially to uh the national uh strategic level thinking oh yes yes yes even one of the key people involved in that
03:03:15 in that and would he have had any influence uh if he'd
03:03:19 if he'd chosen to use it uh to steer the direction
03:03:20 direction of the organization nationally yes
03:03:32 can i ask you generally about tom please uh did tom at the demonstrations it organized
03:03:48 at the demonstrations it organized seek to encourage any public disorder never to my knowledge other than fly posting was it involved as an organization in promoting any unlawful conduct no
03:04:02 was tom seeking to overthrow parliamentary democracy no we were we were a lot we were lobbying him please to try and get them on our side we supported parliamentary democracy
03:04:18 parliamentary democracy thank you there is a reference to a speaker at an event saying that he had met several prominent members of the provisional ira i'll just call that up so that you can see it
03:04:29 see it it's a tab 49 it's ucpi607665
03:04:47 and this is a report dated the 29th of september 1975 paragraph two says the southeast london branch of the troops out movement held their regular weekly meeting at charlton house
03:05:00 house charlton s e seven on tuesday the 23rd of september 1975 from 8 p.m until 10 p.m 15 persons attended the meeting which was chaired by rick gibson
03:05:11 which was chaired by rick gibson privacy opened by giving a brief educational talk on northern ireland he stated that on a recent visit to belfast
03:05:21 belfast he had met several prominent members of the provisional ira and members of the irish republican socialist
03:05:29 socialist party nothing else of particular interest
03:05:32 interest was mentioned and if we scroll down please
03:05:37 we can see that you and rick gibson are both recorded as being present
03:05:50 both recorded as being present at that meeting could you help us please with what relationship there was formal or informal between the provisional ira and tom there was no direct relationship between
03:06:01 between tom and the provisional ira um i suspect that
03:06:03 that uh that report is a little bit inaccurate in that it wouldn't be the provisional ira it would be provisional shin fame the political party that they would have met and the ira were
03:06:18 met and the ira were a secret organization and its members were not commonly uh available to members of the public so i don't think they could have met he could have met members of the provisional ira i think maybe there was a confusion there between the ira and shin shane
03:06:32 there between the ira and shin shane were there individuals within tom who were sympathetic to the provisional ira um it's very difficult i mean tom had members all over the country it would be difficult to say absolutely that there was not a single member
03:06:47 that there was not a single member with with that kind of uh uh sympathy but
03:06:47 but um uh in general we we didn't we we were not an organization that supported violence we supported
03:06:58 supported violence we supported um changing british policy in order to end the violence so the house line
03:07:09 end the violence so the house line uh was the two aims that we discussed at the start of your efforts yes can i move now please
03:07:23 yes can i move now please to big flame you describe big flame as an organization in the libertarian marxist tradition is that right right so not authoritarian
03:07:30 they were very very much the opposite of authoritarian they were very egalitarian and libertarian and um encouraging free discussion and open discussion tolerance of opposing views
03:07:45 in many ways they were a safe haven from much of the sectarian uh activity that was going on inside the tom at the time they would stand in contrast to some of the more disciplined authoritarian left-wing
03:07:56 left-wing organizations they were and they they had lots of feminist women um in big fame who felt uncomfortable in um
03:08:05 um in in a sectarian atmosphere and they found bigfoot much more conducive to them and you explain in your witness statement that rick gibson took an interest in big flame could you explain that please well um
03:08:20 could you explain that please well um after i'd been in the img and left it and uh
03:08:22 and uh um reacted against some of the authoritarianism of the trotskyist groups
03:08:26 groups um i was still a marxist of a kind and i wanted to involve myself with others who were of like mind
03:08:37 who were of like mind and one of the senior people in big flame did approach me and say they were having discussion groups and they were inviting people to attend who weren't actually members of their organization because they
03:08:48 organization because they wish them to be open discussion groups it was by invitation only the people they felt would be sympathetic and uh in interested in being involved uh i i got involved and then rick
03:09:02 uh i i got involved and then rick gibson actually found out that i was involved and he said do you think they'd let me come along and i said well i'll tell them you're interested and
03:09:13 interested and i told them that rick was interested in coming along to some of the discussion groups
03:09:14 groups and they said fine bring him along uh and you tell us in your witness statement that you did bring him along uh he attended meetings but he didn't
03:09:25 uh he attended meetings but he didn't as far as you are aware ever become a member my understanding is that he was not a member um we uh they took it
03:09:38 um we uh they took it in turns to being an egalitarian organization there was rotation of speakers at these meetings there was discussions and everyone took a turn at leading a discussion and there was one occasion when rick
03:09:52 and there was one occasion when rick took a turn and i always remember it because
03:09:55 because he had voluminous notes in front of him sheets of paper with notes on but he was he seemed unable to make use of them and when he tried to give the opening introduction
03:10:06 opening introduction he completely dried up and there was a really rather embarrassed silence and one of the women there said well rick's given us okay an introduction let's let's open it to general discussion
03:10:19 discussion so i felt that he wasn't really up to doing it
03:10:22 doing it he didn't really understand what he was trying to talk about it made notes but was unable to make use of them so perhaps that should have been an early indication that you know he wasn't really a committed person
03:10:37 person was it your impression that rick gibson wanted to become a member of big flame um i i understood um i didn't understand until
03:10:49 until uh i had left london actually and i i went back on one occasion to to meet people i used to know and i i that was when i went back and discovered that he had disappeared and they had uncovered who he truly was
03:11:01 uncovered who he truly was and they told me that the reason was that he tried to join big flame and at that point they had various um suspicions about him worries about him and they did an
03:11:13 worries about him and they did an investigation into him and discovered who he was thank you i'll come back to that in in a little while um just like to call up two reports uh which uh record some information uh
03:11:30 uh which uh record some information uh about big flame meetings at which rick gibson appears to have been present first of all ucpi five naught one zero 10775
03:11:49 thank you this is a report on big flame dated the 5th of august 1976 which i'd like to pick up a paragraph two
03:11:56 two says there's a general policy of attempting to offer some form of resistance to the leadership i.e lawless clique
03:12:07 to the leadership i.e lawless clique within the troops out movement big flame have decided to revamp their london island commission which was suspended some months ago it was felt that the previous series of meetings
03:12:18 meetings had got somewhat out of hand and were at the end in and in no way controlled by big flame on this occasion however
03:12:31 however it was decided that those present that these present meetings would be called and controlled by big flame
03:12:38 flame and that independent elements invited should be under no illusion about that fact paragraph three such a meeting was held on sunday the 25th of july 1976 at 62 peckham road
03:12:51 1976 at 62 peckham road se5 the home of rick gibson eight persons five of whom were members of big flame attended the meeting which was chaired by privacy
03:13:08 by privacy the proceedings lasted from 6 p.m to 9 45 p.m and if we could go down to paragraphs five and six please
03:13:18 five this immediately led on to the position of trotskyists in troops out movement and general criticism of their tactics
03:13:24 tactics privacy intimated that an anti-trotskyist grouping within the troops out movement which would encompass most independent elements
03:13:36 elements could defeat the present leadership but i'm struggling to read that it says something the opposition to this suggestion of possibly forming a breakaway tom his ideas became somewhat watered down
03:13:52 his ideas became somewhat watered down those present however were very critical of the leadership especially since independence tended to work hard at projects which they did not fully agree with
03:14:03 with on the other hand although work around such issues and the prevention of terrorism act and anti-recruiting was part of tom policy the tropschists
03:14:14 was part of tom policy the tropschists had refused to assist if we go down to paragraph six please
03:14:23 and you can see that rick gibson was listed at paragraph six as amongst those present i'd like you to hold the contents that i've just read in mind
03:14:34 i've just read in mind please mr chessum and can we take that down and bring up 21 ucpi five zeros 21 388
03:14:53 and we can see there a report of the 27th of september
03:15:05 1976 and it says at paragraph two independent elements
03:15:11 elements within the troops out movement have over recent months become increasingly frustrated at carrying out the doctrine of the lawless cleat to the exclusion of all else
03:15:18 else as a result big flame members in tgm have been instrumental in bringing together some of the more influential members of the organization
03:15:35 the organization in the hope of formulating a common policy with which to fight the leadership at the next national delegate conference due to take place in late november if you could scroll down please
03:15:56 a gathering of these was held on thursday the second of september 1976 at privacy the home of privacy and it gives a times although only nine persons attended it was seen as a significant beginning since during the course of the meeting it became
03:16:10 course of the meeting it became increasingly clear that the major aim of those represented would have would have to be the defeat of the present leadership and the replacement of them by independent members
03:16:22 independent members privacy saw the likely makeup of the new leadership as being an amalgam of rick gibson privacy privacy and hopefully privacy and if he would
03:16:34 and hopefully privacy and if he would agree to rejoin the organization those present
03:16:37 present thought that without this change the troops out movement would cease to exist we can see further down the page that rick dickson is recorded as having been present
03:16:48 is recorded as having been present now would it be right to say that you had no idea of these meetings at the time i had no idea that these meetings were taking place um in july um i i got married
03:17:03 um in july um i i got married and we went off to cornwall for a couple of weeks on the honeymoon uh we were due to leave london at the beginning of september for me to go and take up a grant to do a phd at what university
03:17:16 phd at what university um and in the meantime in august we made several trips to the midlands uh to to try and organize accommodation for when we got there so i think from from
03:17:28 so i think from from early part of july i was not involved and didn't know what was going on
03:17:36 now that you have seen these two documents which uh appear to show i'll put it bluntly plotting can you help us
03:17:49 help us um as someone who was an experienced member of
03:17:50 member of tom uh with your analysis of what was happening and rick gibson's role in it
03:18:03 well there'd always been a rather uneasy alliance between um jeremy lawrence and the grouping um that supported him and big frame because they were rather different politically
03:18:15 politically uh lawless and his friends were hardline trotskyists in many ways and big flame was much more libertarian they had different priorities for work in the organization
03:18:27 in the organization but they had a joint interest in stopping smaller sectarian-left groups from taking over the organization
03:18:39 from taking over the organization and for a long time it was only that alliance between the lawless people and uh and big flame that kept these
03:18:50 these sectarian organizations at bay the fact that at this stage big flame were involved in trying to take over the leadership from lawless
03:19:01 lawless would suggest to me that there were less people involved at the national leadership level and i do wonder if some of the left trotsky's groups that have been involved in the organization i decided to call it a day and left because i find it strange that big flames should think at that stage
03:19:15 flames should think at that stage that they had the numbers to take over the organization
03:19:23 rick gibson had always been um supportive of both the the law jerry lawless and uh and big flame and obviously his strategy was to
03:19:34 and obviously his strategy was to maintain himself as a bridge between the two groups
03:19:46 two groups um at this stage it obviously decided to plot with big frame against lawless um which was a change in strategy um i suspect that he saw the way the wind was blowing uh and that he felt the strategy needed to change so that he could keep
03:20:01 change so that he could keep in the center of things and he was also um it became clear that he was very interested in joining big flame uh and he would want to be on their side in order that he could as we now know as a undercover police officer
03:20:10 officer um get involved in infiltrating them um i know that he had told people in big flame that he was interested in
03:20:21 flame that he was interested in in joining and that um he told them that he was
03:20:24 he was thinking of moving to liverpool and it was in liverpool that big flame had a sizable branch that had close contacts with people in in nationalist communities in the north of ireland
03:20:38 north of ireland and this was one of the things i think that aroused their suspicions thank you sir can we take that document down please
03:20:56 thank you so i'm afraid i'd rather overrun um might i suggest i think i may need as much as another half an hour um so i'm in your hands as to
03:21:09 um so i'm in your hands as to whether we should break for lunch now or whether i should carry on um do you think you can finish in half an hour because we can then both break for lunch and
03:21:21 we can then both break for lunch and break to permit people to put additional questions to you if they have any and mr marcus to consider whether he wishes to re-examine yes i can do that sir that depends in part upon the shorthand writers
03:21:32 part upon the shorthand writers um may i ask if they're willing to continue for another half an hour or so without a break and also of course in part on mr chesson are you willing to put off your lunch break by half an hour suggestion
03:21:49 break by half an hour suggestion yes that'd be fine thank you very much and then subject to the shorthand writers will continue to finish all your questions thank you i've been told the shorthand writers are um content to continue and i'm grateful to them
03:22:02 to them so some final questions mr chessom about some
03:22:06 some big flame as an organization to your knowledge was big flame involved in the commission of criminal offences no they weren't was big flame involved in promoting public disorder
03:22:23 involved in promoting public disorder at demonstrations i never knew them to be
03:22:29 be and did big flame have as an objective overthrowing parliamentary democracy they wanted to establish a socialist society as opposed to a capitalist society an economy
03:22:43 society an economy uh that i think does not necessarily mean that they want to overthrow democracy
03:22:44 democracy parliamentary democracy thank you can i move now to a completely different topic and that is the sexual relationships uh which rick gibson
03:23:00 became involved in as an undercover police officer the inquiry has been greatly assisted by a witness statement from the woman who we
03:23:07 we are calling mary and so i needn't ask you a great deal of detail about this but what i would like to ask you is did you know about
03:23:20 is did you know about the sexual relationship at the time i knew about the relationship that rick gibson had established between mary and her friend mate
03:23:33 her friend mate that was common knowledge in the south east london branch i also knew that he was involving himself
03:23:41 himself in a relationship with someone in big frame
03:23:44 frame i got the feeling that these relationships were not um substantial but they were sexual relationships um i didn't find out until later that it
03:23:56 um i didn't find out until later that it had a much more substantial relationship with another woman in big flame
03:24:04 sticking with mary for the moment did the fact that it was known that he was having a sexual relationship with mary um have any
03:24:15 with mary um have any influence on whether or not you suspected rick gibson of being an undercover police officer no because this kind of sleeping around was very common
03:24:28 was very common in in that time amidst the kind of people
03:24:34 people um that i knew um it came as a great culture shock to me when i moved to london because i i was a methodist from a village and we we had a very different culture but uh certainly when it when when i moved to london i discovered that people that many of the people i knew
03:24:46 people that many of the people i knew had a completely different culture and and their lifestyle was very different so
03:24:56 so um the fact that rick gibson along with many others was involving himself in this lifestyle um would not have aroused suspicions about him any more than all the other people well perhaps the other way around would he delayed any suspicions you
03:25:10 would he delayed any suspicions you might have had in the sense would you have expected a police officer to do that
03:25:14 i wouldn't have expected a police officer to do that no although of course we now know that many of them do i'm sensing that you didn't have any
03:25:25 i'm sensing that you didn't have any real suspicions about rick gibson anyway is that fair it is except to one proviso
03:25:38 it is except to one proviso that uh when he first appeared on the scene uh my then girlfriend and i uh we did discuss him and uh we discussed the fact that why is he so interested in ireland um because
03:25:44 because most of the people we knew who were interested in ireland had they were either of uh i they had either had an irish connections um in the sense that they had irish family connections
03:25:56 family connections or uh they had been involved in other left-wing campaigns and then began to rethink their attitude to ireland as well uh rick didn't fall into either of these two categories so
03:26:08 two categories so it puzzled us as to why he was so interested um and we did discuss we even discussed the possibility that you know could he be a could he be an infiltrator
03:26:24 an infiltrator of some kind uh but uh as time went by and we got to know him we became friendly with him uh a year or two later we looked back and said oh weren't we paranoid you know we thought we thought rick might be an undercover officer of some kind when we first met him uh you know it's
03:26:38 when we first met him uh you know it's embarrassing we were so paranoid at the time
03:26:41 time of course our we were right the first time
03:26:46 time see now you tell us in your statement that
03:26:47 that there was another female tom activist with whom rick gibson had some sexual contact
03:26:59 contact obviously without revealing her identity in any way can you help us with how uh whether you a whether you knew that at the time
03:27:11 there was one one woman in big flame that i think it was common now just as it was common knowledge that mary and her flatmate had had a sexual relationship with rick gibson so it's fairly common knowledge that this other woman in big flame had had
03:27:22 this other woman in big flame had had that kind of relationship and then so the and the fourth relationship though was
03:27:29 was unknown to you at the time that was unknown to me until um rick was uncovered as being an undercover police officer
03:27:44 undercover police officer um and i was shown the fire on him that big flame had where he had left a note to that other woman explaining why he was leaving and you tell us that you were given to understand that that was a more serious relationship can you again without revealing the identity of the woman in any way
03:27:55 the woman in any way help us with any details i wasn't told the identity of that woman and in fact i still don't have definite information about it although i now have suspicions about it
03:28:05 about it um the reason why um i was given to understand that it was a very substantial relationship was that when
03:28:17 when when rick gibson was uncovered and departed from the scene he he felt obliged to leave a note to that woman explaining why he'd gone away he didn't feel obliged to leave that
03:28:32 he didn't feel obliged to leave that note to anybody else he left it to her her alone so it was clearly a close relationship and it had been long-standing thank you can i move now to the officer we know as hn 353
03:28:45 hn 353 who use a cover named gary roberts on the information that we were able to provide you when we requested a witness statement uh you didn't it didn't ring any bells now that you've had access to the hearing bundle
03:29:00 had access to the hearing bundle is it still the case that it doesn't ring any bells it rings a few bills now because i've learned that he became vice president of the students union at thames poly
03:29:12 the students union at thames poly and we did have someone on the executive office thames poly it was very sympathetic to us and it was very helpful to us when we were organizing local things so i now realized that that person was gary roberts
03:29:25 gary roberts are you able to help us then at all with with what he did uh no i can't remember much about it i know that when um when we organized center we wanted to get the support of local students as well as the local labour movement
03:29:40 well as the local labour movement and we contacted thames polly because we knew that that that particular political that particular students union was sympathetic and helpful and we knew that there was one person there who belonged to a left group and
03:29:54 belonged to a left group and and was particularly sympathetic and that was gary roberts i now realize that it was yes thank you can we come now to um
03:30:06 can we come now to um big flame discovering that rick gibson was not who he said he was you've touched upon this um already
03:30:19 you've touched upon this um already you've explained that you only found out later when you returned to london to to visit old friends can you help us with
03:30:32 how it was that big flame established that rick gibson was not who he said he was yes um i returned to london um uh in order i wanted to see lots of old friends it was a
03:30:45 old friends it was a it was the first time i'd been back to london since moving to the midlands and um one of the first things i did was to go to
03:30:53 to go to the west midlands uh meeting of the troops out movement the west side the west london meeting of the troops out movement which happened to be meeting that day so i went straight to that meeting before i went to the accommodation i'd established in london
03:31:08 established in london and when i attended that meeting i was immediately approached by the scene the most senior member of big flame who said i want to talk to you about your friend rick gibson he said i've got my i've got my um clothes in the laundry
03:31:20 clothes in the laundry down the road if you'll wait until after the meeting's finished come with me to the laundrette and i'll tell you all about it and he then told me all about the way in which they had uncovered rick gibson he said that they had become suspicious
03:31:33 he said that they had become suspicious of him and he decided to investigate him um that they had somehow rather got hold of his um
03:31:45 of his um birth certificate oh no they got a they got somehow got hold of his date of birth
03:31:49 birth um from a document of some kind and they went to somerset house to look up his birth certificate which they found there um but they weren't content with that it's
03:31:59 it's told them where he was born and they went down to the local records office where he was born somewhere in kent i think it was and there it was
03:32:10 there it was they discovered his death difficult so they were quite thorough in their investigation when they discovered that he was
03:32:22 discovered that he was not who we said he was they were unsure who he was they didn't know whether he was special branch mi5 he claimed to have worked before he came to
03:32:29 to london at a campsite in essex somewhere and they went to visit that campsite and discovered it was run by an army major and his son so they wondered if he was army intelligence
03:32:42 if he was army intelligence they even wondered whether he was from a fascist organization so they even though they knew he wasn't who he said he was they were unclear as to precisely who he was though they thought that
03:32:53 was though they thought that the most probable thing was that he was the state in some form um when they discovered that he was not who he said he was
03:33:04 who he said he was they were rather scared about this they wanted to
03:33:08 wanted to um they wanted to as it were persuading to go away so they told him that um they checked everybody who joined big flame or tried to join big flame and this was a routine thing but
03:33:21 routine thing but would he tell them things about school he went to if he had relatives anywhere that they could check up on or these kind of things
03:33:30 things um they actually checked the school that he said he'd been to and they said nobody of that name has ever been here and they confronted him with that and he told them
03:33:42 told them every time they confronted him with something he made up another story he said oh well he said it was embarrassing i got i got expelled from the school i went to so i lied about which one i'd gone to i didn't want you to know about that and he gave them
03:33:54 he gave them the names of people who he claimed were his relatives and they checked those out and they were the same surname but
03:34:05 the same surname but they didn't know anybody called rick um they told me that um a couple of the people they checked out they had they have given their addresses and they were people who lived at ports and this aroused their suspicion that he might be a special branch because they thought that one of the jobs of
03:34:16 they thought that one of the jobs of special plants was to check the ports and um this would give him an alibi for being there if he was seen there so they became more and more convinced
03:34:28 so they became more and more convinced that he was special branch of some kind um but they didn't want to reveal to him that they really knew who he was they they wanted him to still think that they were just checking up on him
03:34:39 him in the hope that that would make him go away they'd take fright and go away and it was only when he didn't go away he bluffed it out the whole time that they decided after a meeting
03:34:53 that they decided after a meeting to take him into a pub and um and uh when
03:34:55 when they waited i was told they waited for him to buy his round of drinks and when he came back um they spread out his birth certificate and his destiny on the table in front of him and they said he went as white as a
03:35:08 and they said he went as white as a sheet he went very emotional he looks as though he's going to start and cry and he he still said it was a mistake in the records office he said i i said i can give you the number of a local company
03:35:23 number of a local company i can give you their extension number if you ring that number i have a brother who works
03:35:24 who works there you bring that number in the morning and he'll confirm who i am so they did that and again the same thing happened sure enough there was somebody there on that extension who had the name gibson
03:35:38 that extension who had the name gibson but he said i haven't got a brother. so they then went to his flats which i now know they had had a meeting in
03:35:54 know they had had a meeting in and they found it completely empty there was not a stick of furniture left in it and it had obviously been cleared out overnight um and they never saw him again
03:36:00 again uh but as i say he had left this note uh to the woman with whom it had a substantial relationship with and she handed it to big flame and they put it on the file i uh i was told who who had the file
03:36:12 i uh i was told who who had the file i went to his house and he showed me the file inside the file i saw his birthday recessive bit um and i also saw the note that he had left to this this woman i there was no name of the woman on the
03:36:26 i there was no name of the woman on the nose i can't remember whether there was none there or whether it had been redacted um so i mean i became very convinced that in fact yes you know he was he was the state infiltrating big flame they were so concerned uh that um
03:36:42 they were so concerned uh that um they actually compiled a little uh dossier which they put in a sealed envelope and the sealed envelope was given to i was told two different people and they were told that
03:36:54 and they were told that um only open it if something happens to a member of big flame otherwise it's all secret um so far from seeking retribution against rick while he was around
03:37:05 rick while he was around they were worried about retribution from the state because they'd uncovered him um and they they were quite scared they told me not to tell anyone about it all to keep it secret
03:37:16 to keep it secret um so for a long time i didn't tell anyone
03:37:18 anyone um eventually of course it's such a such an important thing to have happened that i did start to tell people and in the end i had i journalists came to see me in the 80s
03:37:32 journalists came to see me in the 80s they came to see me to talk about rick gibson and i was interviewed by i think three different journalists who came to see me at different times and i know now i now know that um
03:37:45 and i know now i now know that um the state were aware of the fact that these journalists were visiting me
03:37:56 thank you can you help us with whether any of the suspicions about rick gibson arose from [Music]
03:38:04 [Music] what he had been saying to the women with whom he'd been having sexual relations
03:38:10 um they never said that it was the women who had suspected him although when i knew that he had been uncovered as a um as as an infiltrator from the state
03:38:23 um as as an infiltrator from the state um one of the first things i did was to go to the threat of mary and she was still sharing it with that same flatmate and i went to the flat and i said to them
03:38:37 them um i want to talk to you about rick gibson
03:38:40 gibson and they knew that it disappeared from the scene
03:38:42 the scene and um i said well um why do you think he disappeared and mary's
03:38:48 mary's flatmate actually spontaneously said we wondered if he was a police officer and i said why was that and she said well we've got no real evidence but he
03:39:01 evidence but he after he'd had relationships with us of a sex of nature he never stayed until the morning he was left in the middle of the night we wondered if he was going back to a wife and family
03:39:13 wife and family um and i s and i said well i can tell you that i do have evidence now that he was an infiltrator and i told him the whole story
03:39:19 story uh about big flame and what was their reaction to that i think they were shocked but there's part of them but was not surprised
03:39:40 and you you took some steps of your own that you tell us in your witness statement you visited the premises of the employer that rick gibson had said he'd worked for well yeah this is another thing that looking back
03:39:52 looking back allows me it makes me realize just how much he was targeting me because before he became london organizer
03:39:59 organizer he had reported to his superiors that i was interested in the job of london organizer and it was after that that he managed to
03:40:10 and it was after that that he managed to get on the london coordinating committee and i didn't and i wondered if uh you know people were in on it whether to stop me getting there and then when i uh he reported i now know
03:40:26 uh he reported i now know to his superiors that i had got a job with the london electricity board in woolwich
03:40:31 woolwich and it was shortly after this that he told me that he had now got a job in woolwich
03:40:36 woolwich and there was this office at the around the back of a bank up up a staircase and i now think well it seems fairly clear to me now that that office was a front um
03:40:48 office was a front um and you know he he was obviously still wanting to keep in close contact with me i i relate those two things now so
03:40:59 i i relate those two things now so i only went to that office once and there was a woman there and there was quite a few files but i didn't go right inside the office i could
03:41:08 could i went just inside it and could see see see the rest of the inside of it
03:41:15 rick had suggested to me that since he was working in village
03:41:25 was working in village we could meet every lunch time um and um maybe meet him at a pub and have a chat and there were two occasions when i i think i suggested it there was a village free ferry that went across the river
03:41:32 river and back again and there will be just time to go on that um and it was a nicer way on the woods free ferry um it was like a free boat trip we could meet on that instead of going into a
03:41:44 meet on that instead of going into a smoky pub room and we did that a couple of times
03:41:49 of times um so when when rick uh when i learned that ricka disappeared i thought well i'll go and investigate that office and i went to it and it was it was closed and
03:41:59 and i went into the i went into the bank at the front of the building and i asked uh information i said well that that office around the back of you know up the stairs
03:42:10 know up the stairs um are there still people there and they said oh no no it's um they they moved months ago um you know it was just as
03:42:21 um you know it was just as rick's flat it was empty of all sticks of furniture so so the office had been vacated so you know i thought oh this was obviously just a front it wasn't a genuine
03:42:31 genuine um office um rick claimed at the time he said he was driving a van when i
03:42:42 driving a van when i i i only went to that office once and that was his suggestion it was by my appointment with him and he said he had got a job driving a van and because of that he was
03:42:58 and because of that he was going to places like howe again a port and obviously now i know that he was undercover police officer he wouldn't have another full-time job so i the the bank actually gave me the telephone number
03:43:11 telephone number of the of the people who had moved from that office up their stairs and i rang that number um and when i rang it um to begin with they they said a hold the line
03:43:24 line um and they went off for some considerable time and when they came back they said well um he doesn't work here anymore but um
03:43:35 um he doesn't work here anymore but um we are still in contact with him if you would like to leave your name address and telephone number we'll we'll ask him to get back to you but of course
03:43:43 course obviously he never did thank you i just want to
03:43:44 want to go back to something you said a little earlier about speaking to journalists in the 1980s
03:43:53 the 1980s could we have up please tab 97 which is mps-0731078
03:44:09 this is a special branch memorandum from a detective sergeant to the chief i'm chief superintendent of s squad of which the sds was a part it stated the 24th of june 1986.
03:44:26 24th of june 1986. so the following information has been received from a secret and delicate source
03:44:27 source privacy a freelance researcher is currently engaged in obtaining material on special branch activity on behalf of privacy of the observer this research is expected to take at least four to five weeks
03:44:42 least four to five weeks and privacy is uncertain whether because of the amount of the information he is obtaining the final product will be published in the observer
03:44:53 be published in the observer or will appear as a book in particular privacy has received information from richard chesson who works as a press officer for the labour committee on ireland concerning a man named gibson who is known
03:45:06 known also to privacy it appears gibson was discovered to be a special branch infiltrator into big flame in the mid 1970s privacy has apparently told privacy that privacy another member of the lci
03:45:19 of the lci and of the troops out movement had seen gibson
03:45:20 gibson outside new scotland yard privacy has given privacy privacy's telephone number and has also suggested he contact privacy he was a member of big flame
03:45:34 privacy he was a member of big flame at the time so you mentioned earlier that you now know that the police were on to the communications between you and the journalists and this is evidence of that
03:45:45 of that but it's also evidence isn't it of a missing piece of the jigsaw namely that rick gibson had been spotted outside
03:45:50 outside new scotland yard i i know that i know the identity of the person who thought had seen him outside scotland yard this was a long time after he disappeared
03:46:02 disappeared um uh
03:46:06 um uh so yes he he nobody had ever seen him since but this particular person said reported the fact that it it seemed man he was sure was rick gibson entrance new scotland yard and as far as you're aware is that
03:46:21 yard and as far as you're aware is that is that how the connection with with the police
03:46:25 police as opposed to a fascist organization or the security service was made
03:46:32 uh sorry i didn't repeat that is that how a connection between rick gibson and the police was made as opposed to the other suspicions you had
03:46:42 had namely that he might have come from a fascist organization or from the security service well it was confirmation to us really that he was a police officer rather than anything else [Music]
03:46:57 [Music] i i had a friend who had written a book on the media and ireland and she often contacted me and said i've got a journalist who's contacted me um and um
03:47:10 who's contacted me um and um i i'd like to put him in touch with you because he's interested in in rick gibson and his disappearance is it all right if i give this journalist your name and number
03:47:23 journalist your name and number because it was um filtered by her and i trusted her i i said yes to several of them and they came to visit me in
03:47:38 they came to visit me in in sheffield actually uh you tell us that you got married in the summer of 1976.
03:47:44 of 1976. did rick gibson attend your wedding oh no no no we didn't do that it was uh we didn't want we didn't want a big wedding it was a very small private family affair
03:47:57 private family affair so you know we didn't invite anybody outside of immediate family to it in the bundle that we've provided you with
03:48:07 with there are a number of reports about you and your partner as you've mentioned there's a report about your employment in fact there's more than one report about your employment there's a report about your wedding
03:48:19 there's a report about your wedding there's a report about you moving to kennel worth and then there's a later report about you moving to lemington spa in 1977.
03:48:31 spa in 1977. think on the basis of what you've told us by that stage you were a member of the labour party yes you've seen all of those reports what is your reaction to special branch having been
03:48:46 to special branch having been recording such extensive details of your personal life it's very surprising to me that they were interested in those personal details
03:48:57 i can understand them being interested in the political aspect of our lives but to be interested in those personal details to the extent of reporting on them
03:49:10 of reporting on them very often very trivial things um i do find that rather worrying i find it um i find it sinister actually
03:49:19 and my final question to you is you've expressed in your witness statement a concern
03:49:23 concern that there might be a link between the reporting on you and the difficulties you experienced later in life obtaining employment could you explain the basis of those fears to us
03:49:34 fears to us yes well i applied for thousands of jobs um i calculated that i'm about 1500 jobs over a period of five years in the 80s applying for absolutely everything
03:49:50 jobs which i was qualified jobs for which i was well overqualified uh in a desperate attempt to get work and i just never seem to be able to get an interview for anything
03:50:01 an interview for anything uh there were other other factors uh at work and i understand that but i think the sheer longevity of my unemployment and the fact that it went on for so very long
03:50:15 went on for so very long um does give rise to suspicion in my mind
03:50:19 mind and there was the occasion so much later in my life um when i when when i came back from edinburgh
03:50:24 edinburgh sheffield to live here again uh when i i was desperate for any kind of job
03:50:35 i i was desperate for any kind of job just to keep in touch with my children and um i applied for a job just as a sorter with the post office um and we had this little test we had to do
03:50:44 do um and i more than excelled in the tests they gave us um we were told that there would be feedback uh to tell us why they weren't employing us so
03:50:52 so i i called to ask for that feedback and i was told that in my case they couldn't give me any
03:51:05 give me any and i said why not and the man said well i'm not a liberty to sell you um now there had been um one or two letter bombs sent by republicans uh in
03:51:18 republicans uh in in the period just before then and i did strongly suspect at the time that they had access to the fact that i've been politically active on the question of northern ireland
03:51:26 ireland and that this might well be a factor this might well be the reason why they couldn't tell me why they couldn't give me feedback um obviously i had no direct evidence
03:51:38 obviously i had no direct evidence all the other jobs that i applied for but i know many of my friends were very surprised that i didn't get interviewed for some of those jobs
03:51:49 of those jobs and i was putting it down to other factors but in the end i began to think well is there something else going on here thank you mr chasm you've been very patient uh with my
03:52:02 patient uh with my uh many questions thank you very much if you could just stay there for a moment please press mr chairs about our um procedures require that there is now a break anyway apart from needing to
03:52:13 a break anyway apart from needing to have time to have to have some lunch so that those who may have questions that they want to ask of you through mr barr and put them to him
03:52:24 him would you mind coming back after a lunch break of an hour and um answering any questions there may be that will be fine if you need me
03:52:35 that will be fine if you need me um well would you be back in that please i ask
03:52:36 i ask in other words available on screen yes in that eventuality yes thank you thank you
03:52:43 you then we'll break now for our and for everybody to have lunch and for those questions to be contemplated
03:52:56 we will now take a break for lunch for those in the virtual hero please remember to join your breakout rooms the time is now 1 35 pm so we shall resume at 2 35 pm thank you
03:53:49 you