HN299/342 & Professor Jonathan Rosenhead - Stop the Seventy Tour Infiltration

Full transcript

00:09:19 good morning everyone and welcome to the fourth day of evidential hearings in tranche 1 phase 2 at the undercover policing inquiry

00:09:28 inquiry my name is neil fernandes and i am the hearings manager for those of you in the virtual hearing room please turn off both your camera and microphone unless

00:09:40 both your camera and microphone unless you are invited to speak by the chairman as zoom will pick up on all noises and you will be on screen i now hand over to the chairman sir john mitting to formally start proceedings chairman thank you for the first 20 minutes or so we're going to hear

00:09:56 20 minutes or so we're going to hear miss mulligan summarizing the evidence of an undercover officer and um

00:10:04 analyzing the documents produced by another underground cover officer who has not produced a witness statement

00:10:13 thank you sir good morning hm 299 hn 342 david hughes hn299 served on the sds from 1971 to 1976.

00:10:27 1976. he reported on the international marxist group throughout his deployment but also on various other left-wing groups linked to the img

00:10:39 groups linked to the img and groups campaigning on irish matters publication of his real name is restricted

00:10:45 hn299 served in special branch before his posting to the sds unusually for a police officer he used to wear a beard and he recalls that on a visit to scotland yard in 1968

00:10:57 scotland yard in 1968 this led to a senior special branch officer tasking him to attend vietnam's solidarity campaign or bsc

00:11:01 or bsc meetings to get information on forthcoming london demonstrations and the planned march from aldermaster wearing casual clothes and he thinks using a fake name

00:11:15 using a fake name he attended a number of meetings between february and april 1968 where he was able to gather a lot of information about upcoming protests including the 17th of march 1968 vsc demonstration

00:11:29 demonstration he further recalls reporting to senior management that vsc members were planning to throw stones at the daily mirror building in response to perceived negative coverage of anti-vietnam war protesters in its sister paper in germany

00:11:41 in its sister paper in germany when activists turned up they were surprised by a large police presence hn299 recalls that senior management very pleased with these reports

00:11:54 very pleased with these reports which earned him a commendation he believes that the success of this reporting

00:11:57 reporting may have contributed to the genesis of the sds

00:12:01 the sds other than his reporting on the vsc in 1968

00:12:03 1968 hn299 states that he did no further undercover work in special branch before joining the sds 1971 the chief inspector of the sds phil saunders

00:12:13 saunders recruited hn299 he believes that phil saunders considers him suitable for the job

00:12:20 job because of his earlier reporting on the bsc

00:12:23 bsc while he has no recollection of the content of his initial conversation with phil saunders he thinks it's likely that he told him about sds work and who remembers it as quite informal in tow

00:12:37 quite informal in tow he joined the sds fairly soon afterwards married at the time he thinks that no manager spoke to his spouse about his new role

00:12:44 new role and the possible impact on his family life

00:12:45 life he had no training formal or informal for the role of an undercover officer and believes he was deployed soon after joining the sds despite the lack of formal training he

00:12:58 despite the lack of formal training he states that as special branch officers they knew

00:13:03 they knew or should have known how appropriately to conduct themselves was deployed and that he understands that sds management tried to select officers who could be trusted to exercise good common sense and sound judgment

00:13:16 his cover name david hughes he thinks he made up

00:13:19 made up it was not the identity of a deceased child his cover background was that he'd come down from glasgow looking for work hn 299 recalls that he went up to glasgow soon after joining the sds

00:13:31 glasgow soon after joining the sds and knocked on the door of well-known las region left-wing activist tony southall he introduced himself and said he was interested in getting involved in left-wing politics tony southall was friendly and encouraging

00:13:46 encouraging and in the field hn299 then alluded to his friendship with tony southall as a way of burnishing his credentials it helped his cover when tony salvo came down to london for meetings and demonstrations

00:13:58 demonstrations and hn299 was able to be seen talking to him

00:14:00 him he had a driving license in his cover name but no other cover documentation within six months of being deployed

00:14:12 within six months of being deployed hn299 obtained cover employment as a van driver for a carpet supply and fitting business

00:14:14 business an arrangement which was approved by the sds office hn299 had a number of cover flats throughout london moving from one to the next and the groups on which he reported

00:14:29 groups on which he reported changed the locations of their meetings he got his first cover flat soon after entering the field and spent six to eight weeks visiting places in the local area such as pubs shops and the library to establish his cover background

00:14:41 establish his cover background once this was done he started attending meetings

00:14:48 meetings when he joined the sds hn 299 recalls that he was not tasked to infiltrate specific groups but was instructed to attend meetings he found information on left-wing meetings in the agit prop section of timeout

00:14:59 in the agit prop section of timeout and as he had the autonomy to choose which ones to attend he went to whichever looked most interesting he asserts that to a large extent he was left to his own devices

00:15:13 left to his own devices hn299 claims that the img is the group most likely to have regarded him an informal member and he reported on it throughout his deployment he describes falling in with the img after meeting people at publicly advertised meetings

00:15:26 advertised meetings he then invited him to other meetings he thinks

00:15:30 thinks the north london claimants union might also have considered him an informal member

00:15:34 member as he was involved with them for two to three years and he recalls involvement with the international socialists the documents show that he reported on several different groups

00:15:46 several different groups international solidarity campaign or isc the anti-internment league or ail tottenham red circle fight on the troops out movement or tom and on members of the palestine solidarity campaign and people's democracy

00:15:58 democracy he also reported on marxist and marxist leninist discussion groups held in private addresses he recalls that the groups he infiltrated were not very organized with no formal membership registers

00:16:09 registers and with people constantly drifting in and out

00:16:11 and out the report showed that the groups had aims activities and members in common hn299 recalls hearing about most meetings he attended through word of mouth he remembers very

00:16:25 through word of mouth he remembers very limited verbal participation in meetings and he held no positions of responsibility after meetings he would sometimes go through a drink with group members

00:16:35 members throughout his deployment hn299 believes he attended between one and six meetings per week and quite often the demonstration on the weekend as he would report on every meeting and most demonstrations he attended

00:16:47 most demonstrations he attended he is certain that many of his reports are missing such as those on a marxist class in streatham most on the north london claimants union

00:16:59 claimants union most from the year 1973 and a number on forthcoming demonstrations and future meetings

00:17:02 meetings he notes that none of his telephone reports in which he would impart urgent information to appear in his pack

00:17:10 hn299 would submit his handwritten reports

00:17:11 reports which was similar in style and content to his special branch reports on groups or events

00:17:19 or events to the sds office who would type them up and make additions such as file references hn299 states that his previous experience of special branch reporting meant that when he joined the sds he

00:17:31 meant that when he joined the sds he knew the kind of information that would be of interest he understood that he was expected to find out whatever information he could on the groups with which he came into contact

00:17:42 contact in particular the sds office were interested in any advance notification of an event which might present a public order issue any information material to public order policing at forthcoming events

00:17:54 policing at forthcoming events the identity of attendees at meetings and demonstrations particularly those considered active rather than occasional participants any major changes within the group and the identities of those in charge of the groups

00:18:03 groups and those who decided policy in his reports on meetings and attendees he would include the names of people he'd not encountered previously

00:18:14 not encountered previously in case they became prominent in future and he acknowledges that they would sometimes have no further involvement with the group

00:18:24 in relation to upcoming demonstrations he would report whatever information he came across and understood that it would be used as part of a broader special branch assessment

00:18:37 branch assessment of how best to police that demonstration hn 299 believes that his reports on upcoming events assisted in making sure uniformed offices were present in the right numbers and that they were ready to deal with potential issues when hn 299 knew they might arise

00:18:50 might arise such as groups splintering off from the main body of the protest in this way he believes his reporting helped uniform police

00:19:03 helped uniform police effectively to manage demonstrations a possible example is a report on a fight on film show before a tom demonstration hn299 records that it included a film of left-wing demonstrators breaking up large fascist open-air meeting in milan

00:19:15 meeting in milan by routing the 10 000 police officers present

00:19:16 present and that the intention of showing emotive films immediately prior to political demonstrations was open quotes clearly to whip up a militant aggressive food in demonstrators

00:19:29 demonstrators close quotes he states that he believed it was important to impart a special branch that demonstrations arranged by fight on

00:19:36 fight on were more likely to turn violent and for uniform

00:19:37 uniform police to prepare appropriately

00:19:44 the first report in hn299's pack is dated the 11th of november 1971 but he thinks it's unlikely that this is the first he submitted in it hn 299 records that one of the

00:19:59 in it hn 299 records that one of the attendees at the small spartacus league slash img meeting in an individual's bedroom

00:20:01 bedroom was a bank robber with a history of violence

00:20:03 violence in a report regarding meetings to discuss tactics and policy for an upcoming student's demonstration at which peers corbyn is present hn299 reports a request for

00:20:15 reports a request for open quotes three volunteers to take part in special tasks during the demonstration which would involve breaking the law close quotes

00:20:26 involve breaking the law close quotes hn299 also reports on members of the img being instructed to join the labour party

00:20:27 party in anticipation of a split within it hn299 states that he was aware during his deployment of img efforts to infiltrate the labour party as a vehicle to achieve national prominence

00:20:39 prominence he asserts that while he was not specifically tasked by the sds office to obtain intelligence about subversion he was aware that the infiltration of the labour party and trade unions by

00:20:54 the labour party and trade unions by open quotes extreme political groups was of concern to both special branch and the security service and so he reported on it when it arose he believes that his reporting helped the security service to discharge their

00:21:11 the security service to discharge their duties in relation to counter-subversion he further states that while the img's entry-ism into the labour party was subversive it was ultimately unsuccessful and that generally the people on whom he reported talked a lot about revolution

00:21:22 talked a lot about revolution and attended many demonstrations but did not actually engage in subversive activities

00:21:31 hn299 states that he also reported on the img attempting to reach positions of prominence in tom for the reason that some of its members advocated violence to achieve its political aids and as such in his opinion an img controlled tom

00:21:43 controlled tom could present a serious threat to public order

00:21:50 order there are additional reports on larger ing gatherings which feature core participants to the inquiry such as tara cali and piers corbin hn 299 submits in evidence that piers corbin was someone who may recognize

00:22:01 corbin was someone who may recognize but to whom he does not recall talking during his deployment other than perhaps in passing hn299 also reports on a marxist study session introduced by core participant richard chesson and attended by mary

00:22:17 the documents show that hm 299 reported on the img's attitudes to the ira and he states that this was because special branch closely monitored the ira and organizations that were supporting them and passed information onto the security service

00:22:29 security service hn299 reports on plans by the isc which was linked to the img to carry out collections for the ira around building site sites and also on peter gowan's assertion at a

00:22:42 peter gowan's assertion at a pre-conference meeting for london members of the ing that its political committee intended changing their official slogan on ireland

00:22:51 ireland from victory to the ira to solidarity with the ira he asserts that the img's support for the ira during his deployment was limited to verbal statements and to attending demonstrations advocating irish republicanism

00:23:09 attitudes to the ira are also a feature of hn299's reports on groups campaigning on irish matters he records the defection of an anarchist member of the people's democracy to the north london claimants union because of the former groups open quotes unconditional close support

00:23:23 open quotes unconditional close support for the provisionals bombing campaign in northern ireland he states in evidence that support for indiscriminate violence by the ira was not particularly common in the groups he infiltrated and while many more supported targeted

00:23:34 and while many more supported targeted attacks against the state in capitalist interests more than half of those he met who supported irish republicanism were opposed to the use of lethal violence

00:23:47 violence on occasion hn299's reporting reflected his personal views in one report on an occupation of a section of eaton's playing fields by ail members

00:23:57 members hn 299 describes the protesters arguments as open quotes always pathetic close quotes and the demonstrators as open quotes a crowd of argumentative

00:24:09 crowd of argumentative half inebriated irish labourers close quotes

00:24:12 quotes hn299 accepts that the tone of this report is sarcastic and states that the sds office never told them that this was inappropriate

00:24:23 told them that this was inappropriate and or not permitted in another report hn299 describes a speech on women's liberation as confining itself almost entirely to an attack upon men at the conference which apparently elicited open-quote squeals of delight close quote from female members of the

00:24:36 close quote from female members of the audience he describes the female members as

00:24:39 as completely dominating the session as if to emphasize their liberation using open quotes obscenities to punctuate their prose close quotes and as running onto the stage as often as possible for open quotes maximum effect close quotes

00:24:54 maximum effect close quotes a report on a marxist class records an attendee's belief that come the socialist revolution in england two million people who presented a permanent threat to its continuance including senior police officers particularly those in

00:25:08 particularly those in special branch members of the security service

00:25:10 service and all members of this conservative party would have to be liquidated hn299 notes in his statement that while some members of this class shared this belief

00:25:19 belief and that such views were present to varying degrees in activist groups like the ing

00:25:24 the ing the majority of the activists he met through his deployment were not that extreme

00:25:34 extreme in a report on a discussion at the study class hn299 records an individual's assertion that unmasked police spies present in left-wing groups should get a open-quote good hiding close quotes he does not recall that such comments made him feel particularly threatened

00:25:46 made him feel particularly threatened and as he remembers the report prompted no extra measures from sds management to protect his welfare while hn 299 believes he was trusted by group members he recalls that they quite often urged

00:25:59 he recalls that they quite often urged others to be on the constant lookout for special branch spies unlike most of his sds colleagues hn299 joined a trade union while undercover the transport and general workers union to bolster his cover

00:26:11 to bolster his cover he states that he attended some meetings but probably did not report them because open quotes those meetings would be covered by an ordinary special branch officer

00:26:19 officer close quotes hn 299 states that at meetings at the sds safe house which took place two to three times a week undercover officers would sometimes speak to

00:26:31 officers would sometimes speak to managers about activist meetings they had been to in front of other officers if involved in similar activities officers might discuss group related matters for one another sometimes when managers were present

00:26:44 managers were present he recalls that the chief inspector or inspector of the sds would usually come to safe house meetings and would at times task officers to go to a particular meeting or demonstration

00:26:55 or demonstration he also recalls very occasionally asking for and being provided with a special branch file about a person with whom he had come across while deployed occasionally at the safe flat someone would cook a meal

00:27:08 flat someone would cook a meal and the ucas and managers would eat together

00:27:10 together during his deployment hn299 would speak to the office daily to let managers know that he was okay while he believes that management were

00:27:21 while he believes that management were conscious and aware of officers welfare hn299 states that it was nonetheless incumbent on an officer to raise with the sds office any serious welfare issues experienced while undercover

00:27:34 during his deployment hn hn299 recalls then commissioner sir robert mark visiting the sds say flat and saying something to the effect that open quotes you realize that you could cause me tremendous problems under certain circumstances

00:27:45 certain circumstances close quotes deployment which lasted approximately 240 weeks ended in 1976.

00:28:01 ended in 1976. hn299 gradually went to fewer meetings and then stopped attending entirely telling people he was returning to glasgow

00:28:05 glasgow his withdrawal strategy was planned and agreed with the sds office hm299 does not recall witnessing any public disorders deployed and states that he did not participate

00:28:17 and states that he did not participate in any he asserts that he witnessed no violence to people or property and was involved in none he was not arrested charged or convicted of a criminal offence while serving undercover and he did not appear in criminal proceedings as a witness

00:28:31 proceedings as a witness there is no evidence that he engaged in sexual activity while in his cover identity

00:28:34 identity that concludes the summary of this officer

00:28:39 in addition to the witness statement and documents for this officer the inquiry is also publishing today documents in relation to hm334 sorry hn 344 whose cover name was ian cameron

00:28:54 cameron and who reported on the anti-internment league and the northern minorities defense force and this analysis can be found at pages 90 to 92

00:29:02 90 to 92 of council to the inquiry's written opening statement

00:29:16 thank you thank you very much we will now i think adjourn for approximately 10 minutes while arrangements are made to resume ordinary evidential hearings thank you

00:29:33 good morning everyone we will now take a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to join your breakout rooms please time is now 10 20 a.m so we shall resume at 10 30 a.m thank

00:29:52 you

00:49:20 um good morning everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you as at the beginning of

00:49:28 of every live evidential session a recording made earlier is going to be played if you're listening to it for the first time please listen carefully

00:49:46 please listen carefully i am conducting this inquiry under a statute

00:49:50 statute the inquiries act 2005 which gives me the power

00:49:54 the power to make orders regulating the conduct of the inquiry including its hearings in the exercise of that power i have made a number of orders which affect what you may

00:50:07 affect what you may and may not do in the hearing rooms and after you leave them breach of any of the orders is a serious matter and may have serious consequences for you

00:50:22 you if i am satisfied that a person may have breached an order i have the power to certify the matter to the high court which will investigate and deal with it as if it had been a contempt of that court if satisfied

00:50:38 a contempt of that court if satisfied that a breach has occurred and merits the imposition of a penalty the high court may impose a severe sanction on the person in breach

00:50:48 breach including a fine imprisonment for up to two years

00:50:50 two years and sequestration of their assets evidence is going to be given live over screens in the hearing rooms it is strictly prohibited to photograph

00:51:11 strictly prohibited to photograph or record what is shown on the screens or to record what is said by witness or anyone else in the hearing rooms you may bring your mobile telephone into the hearing rooms but you may not use it for any of those purposes

00:51:25 purposes you may use it silently for any other purpose

00:51:29 purpose in particular you may transmit your account of what you have seen and heard in a hearing room to any other person but only once at least

00:51:40 least 10 minutes have elapsed since the event which you are describing took place this restriction has a purpose

00:51:47 purpose in the course of the inquiry i have made orders prohibiting the public disclosure of information for example about the identity of a person for a variety of reasons

00:52:01 variety of reasons these orders must be upheld it is inevitable that whether by accident or design information which i have ordered should not be publicly disclosed

00:52:16 not be publicly disclosed will sometimes be disclosed in a hearing if and when that happens i will immediately suspend the hearing and make an order prohibiting further disclosure of the information outside the hearing rooms the consequence will be

00:52:29 consequence will be that no further disclosure of that information may be made by mobile telephone or other portable electronic device from within the hearing room or by any means

00:52:38 means outside it i'm sorry if you find this message alarming it is not intended to be

00:52:50 not intended to be its purpose is simply to ensure that everyone knows the rules which must apply

00:52:53 apply if i am to hear the evidence which i need to enable me to get to the truth about undercover policing

00:53:00 policing you as members of the public are entitled to hear the same public evidence as i will hear and to reach your own conclusions about it the inquiry team will do their best to ensure that you can

00:53:14 ensure that you can if you have any doubt about the terms of this message or what you may or may not do you should not hesitate to ask one of them and with my help if necessary

00:53:29 necessary they will provide you with the answer professor resonant

00:53:33 can you hear me

00:53:38 professor resinhead can you hear me

00:53:51 it may be you are still on mute if like me you find the use of these devices problematic to start with uh you were on mute yeah yes

00:54:07 that is a mistake we all make uh um uh repeatedly at the start of the use of the machine you are about to give evidence do you wish to affirm or to um uh swear on both sure then may you please be

00:54:17 please be uh affirmed good morning professor rizenhead can you see and hear me

00:54:30 see and hear me yes i understand that you would like to affirm

00:54:35 affirm yes thank you please repeat after me i do solemnly sincerely and truly i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm

00:54:46 declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth

00:54:54 the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you professor rosenhead chairman thank you miss hamilton

00:55:13 thank you sir um professor rosen head um your name appears in sds reports

00:55:17 reports relating to activities in particular of stop the 70 tour i'm going to ask you some questions about that um and in particular of the reports that have been attributed to

00:55:30 have been attributed to three sds officers that mike ferguson hm135

00:55:35 hm135 jill mozdale 346 and mike scott hn at 298. um before we uh begin i i i just want to make it clear that the inquiry notes your

00:55:48 your concerns raised in your witness statement and your request for further information about special branch

00:55:52 branch interest in your activities of course this inquiry is confined to looking into the activities

00:56:07 looking into the activities of the sds rather than a wider inquiry into special branch as a whole and so we're going to confine our interest in the sds for today's purposes um with that upset can i just ask you

00:56:25 with that upset can i just ask you a few sort of contextual questions about stop the 70 tour please uh um is it uh right it was formed in september

00:56:39 1969 with the short-term aim of stopping the british tour of the south african cricket team which was due to commence in june of the following year but the wider purpose was to isolate

00:56:53 but the wider purpose was to isolate apartheid south africa and ultimately to bring an

00:56:56 bring an end to apartheid in south africa is that a is that a sort of brief overview of the aims and purposes of the stop the 70 tour

00:57:09 stop the 70 tour yes that is correct the sporting boycott was one of the mechanisms for bringing pressure to bear on south africa and one of the more effective ones and it had already started but as tst racked it up a notch i think um and they used the

00:57:24 um and they used the south african rugby team that was touring in 1969 to 1970 to promote their aims is that right that by direct action on up

00:57:38 direct action on up at matches of the south african rugby touring team is that right yes the the the focus was on cricket you know only

00:57:47 know only after a little while did we realize that there was a rugby tour about to come up and therefore we should probably try and uh as it were develop our tactics and the pressure during that and in fact the tactics proved to be successful because the invitation for

00:58:02 successful because the invitation for the south african rugby team was in fact withdrawn

00:58:08 withdrawn very shortly before they were due to arrive in the uk is that right yes

00:58:13 sorry cricket team i'm terribly sorry of course yes

00:58:26 dealing now please briefly with the with that with the generality of the activities that were undertaken by the stop the 70 tour um the target of the activism was the rugby team is that right that's what you said in your

00:58:37 what you said in your up witness statement by the sdst and they targeted rugby grounds the hotels used by the rugby team and other venues

00:58:46 venues used by the team is that right yes and also cricket grounds where matches were

00:58:55 were to be played by the visiting south african team in june 1970 yes to a lesser extent because the dawn didn't take place but there was some proprietary activity

00:59:08 some proprietary activity and the aim you said in your witness statement was to disrupt the activities of the team through what you have called non-violent direct action is that right yes um and by

00:59:23 yes um and by that you mean it was not part of any plan

00:59:26 plan uh by those that coordinated the activities of the stop the 70 tour to use plan for a plan to use violence towards any person and so it's not part of their plan for

00:59:40 and so it's not part of their plan for demonstrators themselves to be violent towards any person is that right i put it more strongly it wasn't just that it wasn't a part of our plan it was a part of our plan that there should be no violence

00:59:52 should be no violence and you would use instead what you have called peaceful civil disobedient methods

01:00:04 by uh civil uh disobedience you you don't mean do you entirely non-criminal um behavior it could include some criminal behavior for for

01:00:13 for for example obstructing the highway obstructing the police matters of that nature

01:00:18 nature this had already happened of course in quite a large scale in the committee of 100

01:00:22 100 demonstrations in the early 60s and we we had the same philosophy of actually

01:00:32 actually in a sense offering ourselves up up as sacrifices to the law to demonstrate that there were things that we thought were outrageous and this was one way we could do it so there were

01:00:44 there were reaches of minor minor criminal law like obstructing the highway um and the tactics were used to cause

01:00:55 and the tactics were used to cause at maximum inconvenience or to actively prevent

01:00:59 prevent matches taking place or players from going about their business is that right i wouldn't say maximal inconvenience i think sufficient inconvenience for it to be noticed

01:01:12 to be noticed noticed not only by the the the players and the management but noticed by the public because obviously the we needed to get the british public to be aware

01:01:20 be aware that a team which was uh racially selected and representing an abhorrent regime was visiting the country and it wasn't just that the people in the ground should know that that people more generally shouldn't be recruited to the course

01:01:37 course and par part of that um a way of publicizing those aims was the organization of mass demonstrations is that right yeah um and i think you say in your witness statement

01:01:47 statement the um stop the 70 tour attracted tens of thousands to their demonstrations yes now i don't remember

01:01:55 remember the exact numbers certainly tens perhaps even

01:01:57 even hundreds of thousands in aggregate i don't know what the biggest demonstration was i think possibly it was in in dublin in fact when the team rugby team went there but there were certainly many thousands a number of different demonstrations

01:02:16 a number of different demonstrations um you have said there was no vetting in particular of uh participants in those demonstrations and perhaps it follows that they couldn't be if there were tens of thousands of participants i think i need to say that although i i see in the record that i

01:02:31 see in the record that i attended all kinds of meetings that were taking decisions about stop the 72 as a whole they don't i didn't really recall those meetings i don't think i was central to the planning

01:02:38 planning of those those demonstrations at all because by that stage i was more involved in the this what we call the special action group we'll come on to that in a moment i just want to sort of contextualize

01:02:52 want to sort of contextualize your activities i'm apologizing for my lack of memory of those other meetings or organizing the public demonstrations quite quite understood professor rosenhead um

01:03:09 it follows though doesn't it if there are tens of thousands of participants in a march

01:03:12 a march nobody could be sure of the dispositions of the individual marchers there can be no vetting of don't don't go back and previously know or people who are told that there is an event and they can turn up

01:03:25 is an event and they can turn up i think we would have published uh our intentions that it should be entirely non-violent and have done that in every way possible presumably with stewards and leaders and things like that but

01:03:33 that but there's no way you can control a lot of individuals they will do their own thing but on the whole i think they did comply

01:03:44 one of the other tactics used was that of pitch invasion is that right where demonstrators would get onto the pitch to prevent either to halt play or to prevent players from coming out onto the pitch

01:03:58 um and i think you say in your witness statement on one occasion you yourself invaded a pitch and were removed by the police is that right

01:04:10 police is that right yes and i think you said uh bef removed by the police before the rugby players succumb to the temptation to beat you up is that right it was quite scary because i'm not very big and they were and they look very angry

01:04:30 a match in a sizeable stadium like for example twickenham or a match like that could attract couldn't it tens of thousands of spectators so if this if it was a popular match the stands would be be full of

01:04:42 stands would be be full of tens of thousands of people yes and the one that i got on the pitch for i tried several but i'm not very good at climbing tennis so that i did succeed in an older shot and the the spectators there were very

01:04:53 the the spectators there were very significantly drawn from the armed forces so it was not just the people on the pitch who were a bit threatening so so were the um those in the uh who were spectators and i think you make that clear in your

01:05:06 and i think you make that clear in your witness statement that the atmosphere or the threat of violence you felt that came from the direction of the rugby

01:05:12 rugby supporters yes um but it it's right to say isn't it that that sort of

01:05:23 that that sort of pitch invasion or that sort of disruption creates a potential doesn't it

01:05:27 it for public disorder on a rather large scale if you've got a lot of people in

01:05:40 scale if you've got a lot of people in the stands are angry and upset about the disruption of their match there's a there's a potential for a form of public disorder um i suppose that depends upon the stewarding really i remember seeing the evidence that uh

01:05:54 i remember seeing the evidence that uh ernest vodka whose evidence was read out yesterday that uh my son that he was uh kicked by the spectators while being carried out and that didn't happen to me

01:06:08 and that didn't happen to me the studying seemed to work okay the police took us off the field to a room they had and then they photographed us by the way those photographs should have been destroyed since we were charged with nothing

01:06:21 nothing and it was only years later that somebody pointed out to me i think it was in local paper that the police had held onto these so the presumably the police were guilty of an offense at least as serious as mine perhaps more so because

01:06:36 so because they're under some kind of duty to obey the law

01:06:37 the law more than me is it it would it be fair to say that the potential for some form of public

01:06:48 potential for some form of public disorder contributed at least in part to the success of the campaign to um withdraw the invitation for the south african

01:06:58 african cricket team that it would be absolutely difficult to police and difficult to manage and therefore the invitation was withdrawn you need to ask the government of the day and of course most of those people are dead now

01:07:11 are dead now um but um it was the invitation was withdrawn

01:07:14 withdrawn at the very last minute you know anybody a week before the tools that i my impression was that it was the escalating size of the demonstrations uh which were peaceful but were very very large and getting

01:07:31 but were very very large and getting bigger i i have the impression that that was the main reason that if this was happening with a rugby tour rugby being our own rft sport and cricket

01:07:36 cricket coming down down the road and already there was a lot of disquiet about the exclusion of basil oliveira the

01:07:47 exclusion of basil oliveira the player of color who had been been selected for the british test team and then the south africans said they wouldn't have it so there was a lot of animus already among the british public population not only cricket

01:07:59 public population not only cricket lovers about the south african cricket so

01:08:01 so that was expected to escalate [Music]

01:08:12 the activities of the stop the 70 tour is this right depended on leaks regarding the itinerary of the touring rugby team i think you say in your witness statement that lord peter hayne

01:08:23 hayne had a contact who would leak details of their itinerary and so they've known where they were going to be at any given time and then direct activities could be organized to coincide with their

01:08:37 organized to coincide with their their arrivals at various destinations that ride

01:08:40 that ride yes but to the best of my knowledge that information was not used in any way to organize the big demonstrations those were only set pieces at the at the grounds not uh it wasn't using any private information thank you um does it follow

01:08:56 thank you um does it follow that some of the smaller episodes of direct action were activities arranged at the last minute

01:09:06 um when the details of the itinerary were leaked

01:09:11 i i didn't know how last minute we would i

01:09:16 i i never actually saw the details of this the information would get through i was in this little subgroup called the special action group and we would receive that information i know and i was never the one that received it and

01:09:27 was never the one that received it and i'm not quite sure when it was received but generally had enough time to for example on one occasion i went down to a hotel in in bristol where they were going to say stay and

01:09:38 stay and we knew about that long enough ahead of time to make a booking for a couple of us to book into rooms in the hotel um and make other preparations so it wasn't last minute but it would and we

01:09:52 we we knew which hotel they were staying at in london for example quite well ahead

01:09:57 thank you um

01:10:03 i just want to ask you about a document very briefly that doesn't appear in your the bundle of documents that have been sent to you

01:10:16 have been sent to you please can we have on screen ucpi000 [Music]

01:10:39 uh this is a special branch report so not an sds report regarding an agm of the anti-apartheid league uh from 1969

01:10:56 league uh from 1969 um you haven't seen this document before so it may be that you simply don't remember at all but did you were you in the habits of um attending

01:11:02 attending will you remember the aam of the anti-apartheid movement yes in fact in the year previous i had for one year been on the executive committee of the anti-apartheid movement

01:11:14 anti-apartheid movement and i think probably i left that in part because i got involved in stop the services tour which seemed to me a more effective way of pursuing our aims thank you i think it's quite likely that i was at that agm

01:11:31 that agm i think later on there's mention of your name and so it does look as if you were there but i just wanted to make sure whether you whether you to sort of uh focus you on the document a moment so can i can we can we sorry um can we turn onto page two of this document please

01:11:49 and there's a part there's some paragraphs in the middle that are headed stop the 70 tour if you can just scroll up slightly thank you very much just just leave it there

01:12:02 there um the document reads as follows dealing with the anti-apartheid movements of activities in sport but mr paul hodges spoke of the formation of the stop the seventy tour and said that detailed plans had already

01:12:14 and said that detailed plans had already been made to harass the springboks rugby tour

01:12:16 tour that was due to start at oxford on november the fifth he said he appreciated that the anti-apartheid movement could not be linked officially with the protesters because of the possibility of its

01:12:28 because of the possibility of its leaders being charged with conspiracy to commit public disorder just pausing very briefly there

01:12:40 just pausing very briefly there this document um reports a meeting that took place on the 22nd 26th of october 1969. um it appears that plans had already been made

01:12:48 been made to um to as it says harass the springboks rugby tour were you aware of those plans would you have been privy to those plans as part of the stop the 70 tour

01:13:01 tour what was the date of this meeting at 26th of october 1969. um i can't remember when there was the first national conference to stop the seventies tour which must have been vain

01:13:16 seventies tour which must have been vain much around that time clearly it already existed

01:13:21 existed and since i i know that i went to the first meet first national conference um i'm assuming that the information was was was public i'm

01:13:31 i'm not sure what question is thank you um

01:13:39 the paragraph uh goes on to say later on in that paragraph that the anti-apartheid movement could not be linked officially with the protesters because of the possibility of its leaders being charged

01:13:50 leaders being charged with conspiracy to commit public disorder

01:13:52 disorder this was is this right then anticipating criminal offences being committed during the course of the direct action that was being planned

01:14:04 being planned for the uh rugby matches is that right i i did

01:14:05 i did first of all i don't know who mr paul hodges was do you have any information on that

01:14:09 on that who was he speaking for the stop assemblies tour or for the anti-apartheid movement it's not clear

01:14:20 it's not clear it seems he was a member of the anti-apartheid movement yes there was a general perception i think that the antibiotic movement

01:14:32 i think that the antibiotic movement while playing a very valuable role was somewhat restricted and played a particular kind of pressure group role in british politics which had its which was very effective but also had his limitations on the

01:14:46 but also had his limitations on the stop the 70s tour was formed out of some sense

01:14:47 sense of dissatisfaction that the antibiotic movement wasn't being sufficiently militant and i think throughout this whole period of several months

01:15:00 this whole period of several months there was a tension between the two organizations in which the anti-apartheid movement was often distancing itself from the supper 70's tall while at the same time i think benefiting from it because

01:15:13 benefiting from it because it kept the the issue in the public eye and also made the antibiotic movement seem relatively moderate so there was an interesting dynamic going on there but i don't think that stop 72 felt it was being

01:15:22 was being encouraged or supported by anti-party thank you can we just turn on to page three very briefly please

01:15:36 i'm right at the top of the page thank you very much um the second paragraph down of the 74 who attended the meeting it was obvious that the following were the core of the coming protest

01:15:50 the core of the coming protest movement and you'll notice the names there

01:15:54 there miss christopher gurney um and then your name appears next to uh mr peter hayne

01:16:04 how does that assessment strike you would you have agreed with that assessment that you were the core of the coming protest movement i'm quite surprised i've seen my name at the top of or near the top of various lists that

01:16:16 or near the top of various lists that police collected and i wasn't aware that i was particularly central there wasn't much of an organization um i suspect i must have spoken and maybe volubly

01:16:28 volubly i don't know but therefore having said something about it and supported it maybe they thought i must be leading something but i think it it was a very informal grouping

01:16:37 grouping and probably people came together after events

01:16:41 events such as the agm of the antibiotic movement to think about how we could take this idea forward it was an idea that grew it wasn't something that was already preformed at the beginning of this

01:16:52 preformed at the beginning of this period thank you very much you can take that document now that down now thank you very much

01:17:04 can i now just ask you about some context about the special action group that was the group that you say you were in involved with that this you saying your witnesses was a subgroup of the stopper 70 tour is that right

01:17:17 that right yes and you said there was some overlap between

01:17:22 between that group and the central direction of the stop the 70 tour do you mean by that you had the same broad

01:17:30 broad aims absolutely yes it was it was in a center just as as the anti-apartheid movement could benefit from

01:17:43 benefit from stop the seventies tour but while there being no

01:17:48 being no establishable connection between them in the same way i think it stopped somebody's talk could benefit from what the special action group did while it was entirely deniable that we were acting because

01:18:00 because as it were under instruction we we were we were autonomous we received information we decided what we wanted to do but it but because we were in sympathy with the general and stopped the seventies talk there wasn't uh there was never any tension um

01:18:15 there was never any tension um and you uh say in your witness statement you that the special action group had no public profile didn't advertise existence or claim responsibility for any action

01:18:26 any action and as a result the stock of 72 didn't need to

01:18:27 need to own those actions either but were you a sort of covert arm of the stop the 70 tour is that is that the effect of it

01:18:38 effect of it well the cover is it makes it all sound a bit

01:18:40 a bit um suspicious a bunch of very nice well-intentioned people who thought that to achieve their aims they had to

01:18:51 that to achieve their aims they had to did they needed the element of surprise so you had to be a little bit quiet about it and we did take some precautions about trying not to phone because we assumed that if if the special branch knew about us they would very likely be

01:19:04 they would very likely be bugging our telephones so things like that

01:19:05 that what was the what was the purpose of why was it that you needed to have a smaller group that the stop the 70 tour didn't need to claim responsibility

01:19:21 claim responsibility for what was the purpose of that um well i i imagine that in terms of not claiming responsibility the the objective was to get very large numbers of people to these

01:19:33 numbers of people to these demonstrations and some people would have

01:19:35 have not wished to be associated with people doing sort of all almost undergraduate pranks you know there's nothing more serious than that no you uh one one member went into i think a hotel

01:19:50 one member went into i think a hotel room somewhere not in london somewhere outside

01:19:53 outside gained access and sprayed anti-apartheid messages on shaving cream on in on the mirror on the uh mirrors in players bedrooms to show just to show that they'd been there it was it was a it was a sort of

01:20:07 was it was a it was a sort of disquieting tactic so we would do things like that but it's not very dignified and it didn't really fit very well with the

01:20:15 the serious image of stop the seventies tour undermine the sort of gravitas of the message is that i think something else you know

01:20:19 you know we did stuff that while there was nothing wrong with it indeed i would say that it was entirely appropriate it didn't fit with what was empty or how it wanted to be seen

01:20:30 it wanted to be seen thank you um uh you are also operated the policy of non-violent direct

01:20:41 direct action and civil disobedience is that right

01:20:44 right yes although that included rather more specific

01:20:49 specific and targeted activities such as painting slogans and gluing locks and getting access to hotel hotels that the teams were staying at is that right um and your membership

01:21:03 um and your membership was rather more controlled because you were all known to one another is that right i think controlled is the wrong word um that it was a sort of informal network

01:21:17 network and i can't i really don't know how it grew

01:21:18 grew i mean um i i knew ernest rodgers socially previously but i i think we actually and then having known each other we met in the context of anti-apartheid so

01:21:32 of anti-apartheid so it was natural we would talk about things there but i don't know how other people came to be involved um but it had no formal membership it's

01:21:44 um but it had no formal membership it's people at a meeting would um would know about the next meeting i pretty much phone numbers and if anybody was absent we told them when we were getting together again um i don't think meetings were that

01:21:55 um i don't think meetings were that frequent because it was all this all happened in just a very few months yes um

01:22:02 yes um with that context in mind can we look please at the document which is the first national conference of the stop the 70 tour this is ucpi zero

01:22:10 ucpi zero [Music]

01:22:18 and it's behind tab 15 sir for for the hard copy bundle

01:22:37 um this is sorry

01:22:48 yes as a slightly uh blurry uh document uh i'm attended by a number of people and uh later on we'll have a look at it but but you

01:23:00 but but you christopher gurney and lord peter hayne are all referenced in the document um it's seems to have been taken the uh

01:23:14 there was a morning session and an afternoon session we can see the underlying type there morning session afternoon session the morning session

01:23:24 session open to the public as well as delegates and the afternoon session open to delegates only can we look please at paragraph five of this document which is on the second page

01:23:42 can we just make that a bit larger thank you very much um michael briley at phonetic a northern university lecturer and middlesex

01:23:54 middlesex cricketer gave a well-reasoned speech in which he warned delegates against the use of violence for violence sake in their demonstration he spoke for the moderate within the stop the seventy tour who were against all forms of violence

01:24:06 who were against all forms of violence unfortunately neither briley nor any of the other speakers could satisfactorily define

01:24:15 define violence which complicated the arguments for and against it uh professor isn't does does that paragraph uh

01:24:22 uh indicate that not all the participants in the national conference were entirely ad item on the issue of the use of uh

01:24:33 issue of the use of uh violence during the course of stop the 70 tour demonstrations i think based on on that paragraph and on

01:24:46 on other documents i think it would be unwise to take these reports as a neutral and objective statement of what was going on in the meeting i think there's an

01:24:58 in the meeting i think there's an element of self-justification here for police involvement um there was i i am the possibility i'm rewriting with hindsight but i i that i'm pretty sure that i'm the i sense no movement

01:25:10 movement towards violence the whole point of stop the seventies tour was that it needed to bring public opinion along and violence would have the opposite effect and

01:25:22 the opposite effect and i don't recall at any stage not just at this conference but any other anyone advocating violence um can we look now please at paragraph eight it's on a the same theme and i just want to invite your

01:25:33 just want to invite your comment on it's on page three please

01:25:44 thank you very much during the general discussion which followed it became apparent that the only real ground for disagreement amongst the delegates was on the questions of whether or not violence should be used at the demonstrations

01:25:56 at the demonstrations which would take place during the cricket season and indeed what constituted violence some felt that violence could only be used against the person but others felt that property came within the definition

01:26:09 within the definition and also the threat of violence at a later date was in itself a violent demonstration despite this difference it was stressed that the stop said 70 tall was not a monolithic organization and its avowed policy was one of non-violent

01:26:20 non-violent militant direct action if individuals or individual groups felt that violence was called for then they must be the final judges of what action

01:26:35 what action was appropriate and that concluded the morning uh session um professor rosenhead that's uh is this right that indicates that whilst the um sort of publicly

01:26:51 um sort of publicly stated uh case for this for the stop the 70 tour was one of uh non-violence in fact what was being um sort of communicated at the meeting was that um

01:27:04 at the meeting was that um each person must take their own course and whilst to stop the 70 tour wouldn't condone any violence if people thought violence was appropriate that was up to them

01:27:14 them does that sound a fair assessment absolutely not no i think this is self-serving nonsense to be honest i think this is somebody writing a

01:27:22 writing a report i can only think uh writing down what he thinks his superiors would like to hear and uses justification um there was absolutely no sense that everybody could

01:27:35 everybody could it it was a smorgasbord where we could do what they wanted stop this only thought was absolutely clear that anyone who took part needed to be non-violent and if it's possible that this meeting a person or two

01:27:48 or two may have said that they disagreed with this but there was no take-up no and i i don't i don't believe that to be the case but if it was

01:27:55 was there was certainly no take-up and no sense that this was a strand which needed to be reported about in one of the longer paragraphs thank you chris rosenhead um just can we just

01:28:05 just briefly look now please at paragraph seven it's on the same page it's just that

01:28:12 that just if you just scroll up slightly please

01:28:23 um in fact it's a paragraph that begins over the other page and it's a um

01:28:27 a um it comes from a speech to the morning session by peter hayne but the paragraph i want to just

01:28:35 just possibly want to just look at um is on the top of the third page

01:28:47 please uh where uh peter hayne says the support which had been gained in such a short time

01:28:50 time should not be allowed to dissipate at the end of the spring box tour from attacking apartheid in sport they must move into the wider field of racism

01:29:05 must move into the wider field of racism both in south africa and in this country and finally the capitalist system which uh nurtured it um an attack on the capitalist system which uh nurtured uh racism

01:29:20 uh nurtured uh racism in this country and in south africa was that something that uh you contemplated and something that others agreed with at that meeting can you recall

01:29:33 recall um i think that would have resonated yes um clearly i mean i used to watch lancashire play cricket in liverpool which was my hometown but i wasn't exactly a

01:29:44 wasn't exactly a major cricket fan and that that had been some time previously i guess that some some people who were involved in this cared about sport very deeply but i think we would all care about politics and racism in politics much more so so it was not about

01:29:59 much more so so it was not about stopping atoll from happening it was about putting pressure on the regime in south africa to change and in the end of course through international ramifications and sanctions and so on

01:30:10 sanctions and so on that became what happened um i i think you also have to recall the very

01:30:18 very substantial links between london as a center of capitalist finance and south africa there were major

01:30:30 and south africa there were major campaigns going on about that barclays bank was the subject of a campaign for i would have thought

01:30:37 thought more than a decade i didn't quite how long it went on supported by the national union students and all sorts of others but because of its complicity in at that period

01:30:47 period in the um in the apartheid regime and it was one of perhaps the largest bank operating in south africa but there was also kinds of all kinds of finance capital that was supporting the continuation of the existing system so

01:31:01 existing system so there was seen as collaboration between basically

01:31:02 basically fascist regime in south africa and the capitalist system which we were part of is that what you think is that how you would as

01:31:10 would as how you would interpret the expression the capitalist systems which nurtured an attack on

01:31:16 attack on banking regimes that funded southern african minority white rule is that how you're interpreting that expression this is a this is a speech by peter

01:31:34 this is a this is a speech by peter hayne who was then in the young liberals and though after after was migrated to the

01:31:39 the um the labour party he was uh peter will speak for himself no doubt tomorrow but he

01:31:42 he he was by name is an extreme leftist in in

01:31:42 in the labour party um uh i would say centrist i had a great respect for what he did there but i think it's unlikely that he's talking about root

01:31:53 unlikely that he's talking about root and branch revolution i don't think that was his back thank you um

01:32:04 paragraph 10 please towards the bottom of this

01:32:05 of this page

01:32:13 i'm just going to finish off with this document and then we're going to have a short break professor resident header because that's near near the time to have our break um paragraph 10 this is a

01:32:25 um paragraph 10 this is a paragraph which deals with the future plans

01:32:26 plans of the stop the 70 tour

01:32:37 and the at one a welcome should be extended to the white south african cricket team when they arrive welcome in inverted commas if this was at all possible to arrange um a tu spokesman um

01:32:53 um a tu spokesman um some something that's been redacted for privacy reasons of sogat said he would endeavor to arrange for everything connected with the tour to be blacked

01:33:00 blacked which was considered an appropriate form of action and this would commence at the airport itself what does that mean what it what what did he mean by black well um trade unions were much more

01:33:15 well um trade unions were much more um you have a bit much bigger membership and

01:33:20 and more more heft if you like in those days than they do now where they're being reduced by anti-trade union legislation etc i'm trying to remember what branch sugar organized does anybody do you know he was print trent yes so they they they couldn't actually

01:33:37 so they they they couldn't actually interfere with the workings of heathrow airport

01:33:38 airport and therefore i assume what they're talking about is trading in solidarity that they would call on other unions to behave in that way um in the event of course it didn't happen so perhaps he was slightly oh he or she i imagine he

01:33:51 he or she i imagine he was overstating the their ability to to have things black means that that you don't basically you don't cross a picket line that that sort of arrangement but if one union

01:34:04 if one union is taking action others don't violate their ticket lines thank you um over the page please page four

01:34:15 over the page please page four and then the small paragraph at the top of the page

01:34:25 um a national demonstration should be held at lord's on saturday june the 6th 1970 the opening day of the tour and it should be of such proportions that it should

01:34:38 that it should effectively finish at the tour um

01:34:50 does that mean it was anticipated that it would be such a large demonstration that the cricket team would simply go give up and go home because the possibility of playing another match when confronted with that waste sheer waste of numbers would be would be entirely pointless

01:35:01 would be entirely pointless i'm not sure what this is who is supposed to have said this um these are simply that the plans that have been put in place by the stop the 70 tour um for

01:35:13 by the stop the 70 tour um for uh action in the future for the forthcoming uh summer and who said that i should get the authority for it um

01:35:30 these were group discussions held by various parts of the stop the 70 tour in group discussions during the course of the conference doing the delegates court telling it it sounds like this is one of the bright ideas that was performed in a breakout group which as we call it now

01:35:43 we call it now it doesn't mean it was necessarily bought into everybody but that's the way it works you the ideas you

01:35:48 ideas you generated are then fed in and not necessarily accepted or rejected but are there

01:35:53 there as a result i don't i think it's it's quite a strong aspiration maybe it could have worked it didn't have to because the government pulled the plug

01:36:03 the plug and i think the government pulled the plug because of worries about what would happen

01:36:09 happen in terms of the scale of demonstrations if they didn't so i think in a sense the statement is true because the thought of such demonstrations was probably sufficient to

01:36:21 probably sufficient to get the tour cancelled whether had it gone ahead what how it would have played out we don't know but certainly if there had been

01:36:27 been many tens of thousands of people surrounding laws and bringing traffic to a stop and stopping the match from getting hit i think that would have provoked prices certainly but whether that would have happened either

01:36:45 happened either and perhaps the the third idea that was mooted during these breakout groups which is

01:36:46 which is set out there plays into that as a preliminary to two as in preliminary to the um mass demonstration it was felt that the local demonstration should be held

01:36:58 local demonstration should be held outside all the grounds where the south africans will be playing at the earliest possible date after the beginning of the qriket season these demonstrations should take the form of propaganda exercise consisting of leafleting

01:37:09 of leafleting and picketing the grounds the leaf that should contain a warning that if the south africans played at the grounds then the matches would be disrupted

01:37:16 disrupted and the dates of these demonstrations will be decided uh later does that that's all about the propaganda is it of this potential mass demonstration uh

01:37:27 of this potential mass demonstration uh should the tour come to fruition it's a combination i i suspect you know inferring from i don't remember this this idea or necessary the meeting in which it took place but um

01:37:41 place but um it's building support if you this is a form of

01:37:46 form of uh advertisements you go to the grounds where the

01:37:46 where the games will be played therefore people who interested in cricket will be going to those grounds and it's a possibility of informing them that what may happen they may be recruited to it

01:37:59 they may be recruited to it they may use their influence to say look this is

01:38:02 this is serious uh we don't want this to happen can't we get the tool stopped you know there could be a number of things that could happen from getting the word around

01:38:10 around thank you um i i think that's probably a convenient moment sir yes before we break could you um clear up two

01:38:19 up two minor matters for me please uh can i take it that the michael really referred to there is the man who went on to become the captain of the england cricket team and the special action group of which

01:38:32 and the special action group of which you speak is that the same as the direct action group spoken of by mr vodka i don't know the the name direct action group but

01:38:39 group but but there was only one so maybe different terminologies were used thank you we will now break i think 15 minutes let shorthand writers have a break

01:38:51 break and you as well we'll be back in 15 minutes

01:39:01 good morning everyone we will now take a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakup rooms please the time is 11 20 a.m so we shall reconvene at 11 35 a.m thank you

01:54:21 good morning everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you

01:54:32 thank you sir um professor rosenhead um i want you to look at another document now please this one is ucpi zero zero zero zero zero one four three nine nine

01:54:46 one four three nine nine and that's a tab three serving the whole copy bundle

01:55:02 uh this is a london region conference of the stopper 70 tour held on the 5th of april 1970 um 50 delegates presence at the chairman ernest at rodka

01:55:17 ernest at rodka uh in paragraph four somebody whose name has been redacted for privacy reasons spoke about the uh so if you can scroll down please

01:55:30 paragraph four on that page thank you a little bit further thank you very much that spoke about the subject of apartheid and expressed the hope that those present

01:55:43 those present would not be disappointed if the colored population seems somewhat wayward uh in supporting the campaign he said it was due to two factors firstly that many colored people felt cricket did not really affect them and second that for various reasons it was

01:55:56 second that for various reasons it was very hard to mobilize them in any great numbers

01:56:00 numbers he concluded by saying that the stop the 70 tour was a small organization but with a hardcore of militants

01:56:13 but with a hardcore of militants who could help to destroy apartheid and racialism the expression used there a hardcore

01:56:14 hardcore of uh militants um does that strike you as an uh fair or accurate assessment of the stop the seventy tour

01:56:30 the stop the seventy tour small organization with a hard core of militants

01:56:34 militants first of all i'm just curious as to who was saying this it says privacy so this presumably is not a

01:56:44 not a an undercover cop speaking so i'm not quite clear why the name has been removed

01:56:48 removed it would help to understand whether we should

01:56:50 should uh what wait we should give to the views expressed here

01:56:56 can anybody provide any clarification on in what role this person was speaking um a number of names of private citizens um have been removed to protect their

01:57:10 um have been removed to protect their their privacy that that that's why that name has been redacted and no that's right

01:57:11 right it's not an undercover police officer speaking could we just scroll up a bit so i can see under which item of the agenda this is coming because that might give me a clue as to

01:57:22 give me a clue as to whether this was a paragraph three please

01:57:26 please so which which part of the agenda is this

01:57:29 this it appears to be the beginning of the agenda the gender was um somebody who was taking over from somebody else who'd been in dispose apartheid in sport and racialism in great britain it appears to be

01:57:43 appears to be that item of the agenda it's hard to know sometimes people do make speeches which represent their own views and

01:57:51 views and obviously it sounds as if he was an ioshi

01:57:52 ioshi with an invited speaker um and uh presumably representing views from outside the organization

01:58:03 from outside the organization and it doesn't mean it's he he or she got it wrong i think the language is perhaps redolent of certain

01:58:14 redolent of certain militancy of the day [Music]

01:58:18 [Music] i think if you say said hardcore you said

01:58:18 said small number of committed individuals i think that would be true but to call them a hardcore there was no party line um i mean

01:58:33 there was no party line um i mean i i was not in any organization with any of the other people who were that i was working with other than stop the 70s tour so the idea of militants is normally nowadays seen as

01:58:48 nowadays seen as a group with a line that is trying to push on everybody else and this is simply

01:58:52 simply not a good description stop the 72 was a nice

01:58:56 nice floppy liberal organization which many people could join who had maybe different activities outside but agreed on this one thing so i don't think that's the normal sense of hardcore and militants

01:59:09 of hardcore and militants i think if you wanted to say there was a a a loose penumbra of feelings that south africa was really so unpleasant that many people who had different views on other things would would agree on south africa

01:59:25 would would agree on south africa and that some people were more committed to that than others and particularly of course in the anti-apartheid movement

01:59:30 a lot of those would be exile south africans no we we were mostly not and stopped himself we were mostly

01:59:39 mostly born and bred roots rather than emigrates

01:59:45 emigrates um but uh and i guess south africa might have been a little bit more committed because it was their home that we were talking about whereas for me it was an option you know this was a you know you like this is an expression of my values it wasn't

01:59:56 of my values it wasn't that my life was on the line and i think that might be too many others so hardcore militants doesn't sound right at all thank you i can't comment on the extent to which what is described there as colored people

02:00:10 people um because that was the language of the day i can't say whether that was accurate or not no i'm not asking you to comment on that thank you um can we move on please to page two i want to look at paragraph

02:00:24 six

02:00:31 it was agreed that in view of the possibility of conspiracy charges arising from any activity which could be construed as urging others to disrupt public events it would be wiser not to discuss

02:00:43 it would be wiser not to discuss detailed activities at this stage

02:00:55 detailed activities at this stage but that a planning committee should be set up which could advise branches on tactics which might prove successful in disrupting cricket pitches the planning committee would consist of a small group of known trusted delegates and could meet at a convenient date in the near future

02:01:15 is that a reference do you think to your group the special action group there or is that something different

02:01:21 it i have never collected of this but it does seem

02:01:27 does seem that that could have been the german of the idea which were into the special action group what was the date of this document uh the document is uh dated at the 7th of april and reflects a meeting on the 5th of april 1970.

02:01:38 april 1970. well the special action group had been in existence for quite some time before that

02:01:47 that right so i don't think that can be that may be just that must be some other activity right okay um uh

02:01:54 um uh thank you um

02:02:06 thank you um thank you can we we can take that document

02:02:07 document down now please

02:02:11 um can we now look at document

02:02:20 zero ucpi000 zero zero eight six zero seven that's tab nine of the hard copy bundles

02:02:41 this is a meeting which took place on the 7th of may 1970 so not very long after that previous meeting and it's a meeting of the special planning group of the stop the 70 tour

02:02:55 group of the stop the 70 tour held in a room at the london school of economics

02:02:56 economics attended by nine people in paragraph three the the

02:03:07 in paragraph three the the purpose of the special planning groups is said to be to suggest coordinate and implement activities within the london area uh from the time of the arrival of the south african cricket team

02:03:18 cricket team until their uh departure um i i i think in your witness statement you query whether that in fact

02:03:31 you query whether that in fact was the uh meeting of the special action group

02:03:32 group is that right

02:03:39 i find this can is there a list of who attended at the end uh so that would help to clarify that point uh there is but they have been uh

02:03:51 uh there is but they have been uh redacted for for privacy reasons and only your name appears i'm afraid um professor isn't ahead um but there are nine people in attendance including yourself

02:04:05 yourself i i would say first just in passing that s108 was my own room at lsa it was a lecturer's room it was a small lecturer's room it's um very very thin and not very long

02:04:20 um very very thin and not very long how on earth there were nine people there i think i think this is this policeman has invented that how could there be nine people in that room it's hard to get for it but so i i i didn't i don't know also if there were redactions it

02:04:34 also if there were redactions it suggested it wasn't the special planning group because then there would be other names there which are

02:04:38 which are subject matter of this inquiry and if their those names were not there how can it have been a special planning group one is um ernest's name not their wives

02:04:52 one is um ernest's name not their wives mike kraft's name not there and so on i i

02:04:56 i i had i find it hard to know what this was this meeting is there any evidence further down that would happen can we yes can we can we we're going to move down at the report can we look at uh paragraph but three please

02:05:09 uh paragraph but three please well first of all sorry sorry just just briefly going back to this i've got two paragraph threes in this uh document can you just scroll up slightly

02:05:19 slightly and so that we can see that what the points of discussion were

02:05:31 that what the points of discussion were likely to be during this planning group this group therefore had at this stage broad discussions on the following points

02:05:35 points heathrow demonstration tickets demonstrations outside lords on june 6 which is the first day of the cricket tour and hotel demonstrations and now just scroll up slightly so we can see the bottom of the see the whole of that paragraph three

02:05:51 paragraph three at this stage no definite plans will be made for a demonstration at heathrow mainly because of a lack of information about the time and place of a rival of the teams

02:05:57 the teams however the general assumption was that they would arrive at 8am on june the 1st by a scheduled voac flight at heathrow to this

02:06:11 flight at heathrow to this and members of the planning group agreed that a recce would be made of the airport

02:06:12 airport with particular reference to the exits there from it was generally felt that it would be impossible to prevent the team from leaving the airport

02:06:23 from leaving the airport but that incidents could well be staged on route from the airport to their hotel does this sound like the sort of thing that your special action group would have discussed direct action

02:06:38 discussed direct action targeted at the rugby at the cricket team

02:06:42 team this is clearly much more public not in any way clandestine at all and the reference there to the planning group suggests it could be been the group that

02:06:55 group that was mentioned in the previous i would have in the last document the united st i guess i must have been a member of it but of course it didn't last very long because the torah canceled and none of this was was required so i don't know a collection of it and

02:07:08 i don't know a collection of it and presumably other people whose names have been redacted were on the planning group but not on the special action group so i think this might be an entirely different activity uh thank you um the reference to

02:07:21 to uh incidents are being uh staged uh on route um what so it says the incidents could be staged on route from the airport to their hotel what sort of incidents

02:07:35 their hotel what sort of incidents might have been contemplated by the special planning group you know well i say this wasn't the special planning group as far as i can tell

02:07:44 tell and i have no i've no idea what that could have been but certainly if there were incidents to be

02:07:51 be pla to be carried out then you thought it would need to be rather carefully organized whatever they were

02:07:57 were um i imagine it could have been new some kind of

02:07:58 kind of traffic interruption but it's hardly hardly likely i can't think what else it would be but you could hardly do this thing in an open public meeting

02:08:09 open public meeting you plan are you going to block a road or something and certainly we did not do that in a special training group this it was never the special action group what do you want to call it it it was never something that i recall

02:08:22 it was never something that i recall even being on the agenda let alone a great year right can we turn on please to page two in this document and look at paragraph five

02:08:36 paragraph five thank you um

02:08:44 somebody whose name has been rejected for privacy reasons presented plans and aerial photographs of lords and described the defenses as they existed at present

02:08:55 existed at present he said that there would probably be two points of attack open to demonstrators first the raised stand believed g and e stands where there was a drop of approximately five feet um to the ground and as there were

02:09:06 feet um to the ground and as there were no barbed wire or other obstructions at this stage it would be it seemed the most likely place from which to launch an attack and b from the gates opposite the pavilion from where uh can't really

02:09:22 uh can't really understand that word uh etcetera were brought to the ground uh rollers rollers etc were brought to the ground grateful therefore bearing these two places in mind

02:09:35 mind demonstrated to be advised to purchase tickets for these areas um the expression user from which to launch an attack what what what can you recall what might have been meant by that

02:09:48 have been meant by that i think this would be launched this is like the

02:09:49 like the the hyperbolic language elsewhere it's not a language you would ever review

02:09:58 you know i refer to it i think this is person

02:09:59 person writing this is again presumably a a covert report we're seeing here not a public document and then he's whoever's writing it is it can do that with the certainty that it

02:10:13 can do that with the certainty that it will not be refuted or adjusted and the the terms seem to be directed to make this seem more serious than i think it can have been i

02:10:24 it can have been i this section of it does look more like the sort of thing the special action group might have got involved so maybe this was some kind of hybrid it was both planning uh demonstrations and the purchase of tickets and so on which would be a

02:10:38 tickets and so on which would be a mainstream stst activity we didn't have any money

02:10:40 any money and we didn't buy we didn't have no mechanisms for acquiring tickets or distributing to other people so um there seems to be an odd mixture of things going on here assuming this

02:10:52 things going on here assuming this meeting took place i don't imagine that meetings were invented but i think the way it's described is seems to me implausible that we would have done we there were i can remember odd meetings

02:11:06 there were i can remember odd meetings where we talked about what we might do at the beginning of the cricket um season if it happened and they were they weren't planning picture invasions because that's not what we did

02:11:20 because that's not what we did we we didn't mobilize large numbers of people

02:11:25 people what we did was done with a very small number of people sometimes one or two sometimes six you know i i didn't remember but certainly we would not do organize anything that involved large numbers of people

02:11:36 involved large numbers of people the ideas we had for quickie grounds were thing like could we could we find somebody who could fly a model aeroplane over the cricket ground with

02:11:44 with with a streamer with an antibody message it was that sort of thing not things involving large bodies of people

02:11:55 of people so whatever this meeting was about it wasn't special planning group and i think it's been

02:12:08 think it's been suited up for the eyes and ears of the senior officers in terms of language thank you can we scroll towards the bottom of the page please um

02:12:15 thank you that's great thank you um i just want to ask you about these a series of points in view of the different groups and organizations which would be present on june 6th it was difficult to make specific

02:12:27 6th it was difficult to make specific plans for any one type of action on the ground but the following points were felt to be relevant

02:12:35 a mass attack on the ground was desirable but this should be delayed until near the lunch interval before and after this demonstrators should

02:12:42 should should endeavor to get onto the pitch in twos and threes and once having reached the playing area the best advice was that each should uh do their own thing uh

02:12:54 do their own thing uh general distraction should be mounted throughout the period of play in the in the form of shouting and moving about so as to distract the player's attention as far as possible newspapers should be brought in and

02:13:07 newspapers should be brought in and allowed to blow over the pitch wherever possible

02:13:08 possible the possibility of using balloons was discussed but it was thought they were not very effective the use of fireworks flares and other material of a similar nature was advocated

02:13:21 advocated it was said that blacks are believed black and edgington limited 22 grays in road apparently stock a mini flare used by climbers and others as a form of distress signal

02:13:33 as a form of distress signal which has a small launcher attachment little bigger than a fountain pen and could therefore be easily smuggled into the ground and if you just please can you scroll down to the next page page three just the top of that page

02:13:54 just to finish that paragraph uh somebody whose name has been redacted for privacy reasons said that he was endeavoring to obtain the key to a school army training unit in order that he could make use of its thunk of its store of thunder flashes um

02:14:10 thunder flashes um can you just return to the previous page please

02:14:12 please a little paragraph a

02:14:22 uh the advice that people should endeavor to get to the pitch in twos and threes and once they're do their own thing what what can you remember what might have been meant by that by the expression do their own thing

02:14:39 where was this meeting taking place um it took place on the 7th of may 1970 at the lse and is said to be a

02:14:51 1970 at the lse and is said to be a meeting of the special planning group of the city in my room or not um it was in room s-108 that was my room i imagine that that's not invented um and i was there i have no recollection of it

02:15:06 recollection of it it's a different order of planning than we

02:15:08 we would normally have been involved with um

02:15:12 um so what was the specific question can you can you recall what might have been meant by the advice that pla but the demonstrators on reaching the pitch

02:15:23 reaching the pitch in twos and threes should do their own thing

02:15:24 thing well the one time that i got onto the pitch i got under the pitch and there was nothing to do i just had to wait there until somebody came and removed me and i imagined what was saying there is no action to take once you're there you might do i suppose uh

02:15:40 you might do i suppose uh try to elude the police service to make the interruption longer i didn't i just waited to be taken away and i imagine that's what they mean there was no specific action

02:15:56 specific action um rather than that though that's um code for do some terrible things um the the the points up the advice under d the use of fireworks flares and the possible use of thunder flashes uh um

02:16:12 thunder flashes uh um what was the what was the what was the purpose of using fireworks and flares and other sort of well no says it was advocated that means somebody brought forward this bright idea it doesn't

02:16:26 bright idea it doesn't really mean that we decided to do it and i

02:16:26 i um i

02:16:32 um i think that was probably somebody who's a little bit more um adventurous than most of us would have been happy with i'm not i can't say now because as i said i knew a collection of the meeting but

02:16:45 meeting but people were casting around for things to do that might interfere with the games i remember the one one scheme we actually had a meeting in

02:16:56 we actually had a meeting in the flat of a sympathizer which i don't know

02:16:59 know that this was reported on which a flat that actually overlooked gloves and we were thinking about would it be possible to have a high pressure hose that could sort of somehow

02:17:11 somehow project a parabolic arc of liquid onto the pitch

02:17:16 the pitch from over the stands and so on so there are all kinds of crazy ideas going on which never went anywhere as the model airplane never went anywhere either and i think this is probably just one of those brainstorming ideas that um [Music]

02:17:29 [Music] that's what you do with a brainstorm you try and get ideas out and some may get implemented some may not

02:17:36 not and doesn't look as if this one had any take-up but in any case as we know the opportunity to use these ideas was removed from us by hm government who stopped the talk uh yes

02:17:47 who stopped the talk uh yes stopped shall we say and the use of fireworks or thunder flashes or whatever they're um however they're referred to but

02:17:58 however they're referred to but presumably that their use would be to create

02:17:59 create anxiety and and um amongst the public watching who wouldn't necessarily know how to attribute the noises that they were hearing but

02:18:12 the noises that they were hearing but that would i i don't think that idea was ever accepted and had it got near to implementation we would have had to think seriously about those aspects but uh but it didn't so this was just an idea lying on the table and it was it wasn't immediately negated

02:18:24 it was it wasn't immediately negated because it looked like we were thinking about all sorts of ideas um trying to think of things that we could do that would be effective but none of these things were decided on we can take that document down now up

02:18:41 we can take that document down now up please and the next document i want to look at

02:18:41 look at is uh mps-0736368

02:18:52 is uh mps-0736368 which is behind tab one of the hard copy bundle for your notes sir

02:19:03 this is another meeting of the special planning group that held on the 13th of may this time just a little later than the previous one um again

02:19:15 previous one um again nine people appeared to have been present

02:19:21 present the points of discussion on the heathrow demonstration the heath that the hotel demonstrations that the june demonstrations when the tour was actually underway and uh future activities um

02:19:34 activities um if we uh scroll down please slightly um down the page so that we can look at the whole of paragraph four please thank you very much

02:19:49 you very much um the the start part of that paragraph says that the demonstrations at the airport couldn't be finalized because no one knew when quite when the south africans would have arrived

02:19:58 arrived but the second paragraph says the airport has been surveyed and photographs taken

02:20:09 photographs taken and the general conclusion is that the flight will arrive at number three building

02:20:10 building and the south africans will be spirited away through a vip lounge into a waiting coach and thanks to their hotel if if advanced information is received that they are actually in transit then an advanced warning system to

02:20:28 then an advanced warning system to demonstrators will be put into operation to get them to assemble at the airport it is considered feasible that a commando group of some 20 demonstrators could gain access to the area where passengers from the plane disembark to throw

02:20:40 disembark to throw fireworks etcetera thus giving the south africans

02:20:41 africans a rousing uh welcome

02:20:52 a rousing uh welcome again the uh reference to the use of uh fireworks but this time um at the airport uh um again would the purpose of using fireworks at the airport

02:21:03 the airport uh be to create panic amongst those people arriving and other other other users of the airport at that time

02:21:18 users of the airport at that time well first of all discounting the um hyperbolic language which is whoever this is it seems like the same person is using um i think these were ideas that had not

02:21:32 i think these were ideas that had not been accepted there are ideas that were floating around uh we were nowhere near implementing any of these things fireworks weren't bored no there were no names

02:21:43 names it isn't there's not operational thing this is if you're like some thoughts being put out there demonstrators could be stationed in the car park

02:21:52 car park there's nothing definite here this is thoughts about how one might go ahead with something that was going to take place in

02:22:02 place in the following months um concerned by uncertainty almost certainly uh very little of this would have been put into action and it's not

02:22:12 not not been accepted that we were going to go through the airport throwing fireworks um i'm i'm assuming that i was there because it's my room and that some discussion of fireworks was

02:22:21 was uh was in place

02:22:26 at the end of the report as somebody who was in attendance yes that's what i thought by the way i noticed that at the beginning it says from a reliable and delicate source now i know this is code please code can somebody tell me what that means

02:22:41 that means it's the way that the reports begin in this in this era that's how intelligence reports are written in this era because there isn't that i don't think all of them have that but maybe i'm wrong i thought that sometimes it meant that it was

02:22:56 sometimes it meant that it was an undercover policeman and another form of words meant it was somebody who was a member of the organization but was supplying information is that not right i simply don't know pressure isn't i'm afraid okay um yeah can we uh

02:23:09 um yeah can we uh sorry i'm sure i answered your question entirely but the idea of a commando group nobody would none of us would have used that language we weren't militaristic you know we this is this is being translated

02:23:22 translated into a kind of jargon for something which was

02:23:23 which was disorganized um fluid um people interacting with each other

02:23:32 other it wasn't a board of directors with people taking instructions or coming to your conclusions it was thinking about what we might do in preparation for what might happen later perhaps can we turn over onto the second page please

02:23:49 second page please and look at the top paragraph paragraph five

02:24:01 um as had been agreed each of the london groups will be given a specific date and time when they're expected to pick it outside the team's hotel it was suggested that once the hotel was known individuals from each group should familiarize themselves with its

02:24:13 familiarize themselves with its layout and thus be in a position to gain access

02:24:16 access wherever possible or necessary sorry whenever possible or necessary it was also suggested that although there would be would undoubtedly be police guards at the various entrances and exits there would perhaps be times when this guard could be relaxed

02:24:28 when this guard could be relaxed and if there were a sufficient number of demonstrators present then that would be the time to march boldly into the hotel and stage some sort of happening the most spectacular would be the release of smoke bombs in the foyer

02:24:41 release of smoke bombs in the foyer or near the south africans if they could be

02:24:42 be located um

02:24:52 i this is evidently a suggestion made by a member of this nine group special

02:24:53 special planning group um again

02:25:00 um again a reference to a a smoke bomb is that is that in order to create sort of maximum anxiety and

02:25:13 sort of maximum anxiety and worry amongst the south african team and other members of the people using the hotel this is quite assuming this is accurate uh roughly this is

02:25:23 this is clearly wishful thinking by one person sort of

02:25:28 sort of brainstorming uh some ideal scenario that they hope they might get a chance none of this could conceivably happen i'm sure none of us were taking this at all seriously yeah i mean it's uh you can't take

02:25:40 yeah i mean it's uh you can't take things that i've said at a meeting there's a commitment of even those other people at the meeting unless it says that was decided and this this obviously a policeman

02:25:52 and this this obviously a policeman or policeman's agent or wherever it was that was the reliable and delicate source we would have been looking for things like this to report

02:25:59 to report regardless of whether they were agreed on or not and and it's quite clear that these no steps were taken to implement these unless you can find me other evidence so that was the case i

02:26:10 was the case i i have to say i'm doing international documents not for memory my memory is limited to the sorts of people who are there the sorts of status of the organization of discussions that it was not um a dedicated cell

02:26:25 that it was not um a dedicated cell it was people they were doing different people at each meeting and and so on it was not afraid we weren't that disciplined um completing our look at this report in paragraph six

02:26:41 look at this report in paragraph six it says apart from the obvious forms of demonstration already discussed at length the following additional points have arisen a meteorological balloon is to be purchased also a cylinder of hydrogen

02:26:52 purchased also a cylinder of hydrogen with the intention of releasing ticker tape or similar substances overlords during the match and a free radio

02:27:01 radio expert not identified has stated that it should

02:27:04 should be possible to jam police communications at crucial period it was stated that he has the equipment which is necessary for this and is prepared to assist but can you remember that suggestion being made

02:27:20 remember that suggestion being made no it's the the whole thing is littered with wishful thinking and wild speculations and i i i don't have any recollection the fact that it didn't register suggests that it was never taken forward in any way or

02:27:33 in any way or possibly uh given that it's not doesn't fit

02:27:33 fit with my my my general politics and my state of mind you know i think it's i probably dismissed it as as blaster and as it well

02:27:48 as blaster and as it well we don't know because nothing we didn't get to the stage of the quick tour but my

02:27:52 my my doubt is that any of this would have happened and we would have stuck to stuff

02:27:54 stuff that we'd been doing already which was like mass demonstrations and occasional little forays or one or two people to try and add a little bit of extra

02:28:10 extra uh spice to the to the source right um uh thank you um

02:28:17 i think we can take that uh document down now please

02:28:27 um can we now look please at ucpi zero zero zero zero zero eight six three five behind tab four in the hard copy bundle please

02:28:48 now this is a meeting of the national committee of the stockton 70 tour at which you were present which took place on the 24th of may 1970 so just after the time that the invitation extended to the

02:29:01 that the invitation extended to the south african cricket team had been withdrawn

02:29:11 withdrawn and so the campaign had been successful and i just want to ask you a couple of questions

02:29:13 questions about it please paragraph

02:29:22 1.2 i think um there was a uh make sure i just got the right document

02:29:28 document sorry yes um it was agreed that uh they participate in the roskin kitson march over the weekend but that

02:29:39 kitson march over the weekend but that stst should not meet at lord's as rage but in

02:29:43 but in regents park if you can just scroll up a little bit please

02:29:51 thank you the june the sixth rally which was being organized by the ansi apartheid movement was going on as planned

02:29:58 planned but the general feeling of those present was that the rally would be somewhat of an anti-climax and that most at stop the 70 tour supporters would not be particularly interested in participating

02:30:09 participating under no circumstances should the stop 72 use it

02:30:11 72 use it as a victory rally does that indicate that the march was likely to be a great deal smaller than had been anticipated

02:30:28 anticipated i think it says so in terms of the the the purpose of the stop the 70 tour had been achieved but the the rally was not the stop and 70 tours right as i understand it it was the anti-apartheid movement

02:30:41 the anti-apartheid movement and the only question was whether st should

02:30:46 should participate and in what way thank you um and uh

02:30:49 um and uh finally uh this paragraph three if you can just scroll down a little bit please

02:31:02 um thank you and maybe just make it a little bit larger

02:31:09 can you zoom in a little bit thank you very much

02:31:16 very much uh the general consensus of opinion was that although um stop the 70 tour had served its purpose the organization which had been set up should not be disbanded but should remain as a latent power in the event of any other apartheid team endeavoring to enter great britain it was felt also that the numbers of

02:31:28 it was felt also that the numbers of supporters who had been mobilized so successfully over the past months should not be left to dissipate their enthusiasm and it was essential stop the 72 found another cause as soon as possible

02:31:44 another cause as soon as possible discussions would take place with group leads to seek their ideas of possible targets

02:31:48 targets but one which received the most sort of you can just scroll down general support was the kebora basa

02:32:05 general support was the kebora basa dam project it was therefore seen most likely that those who remain supporters of stop the 70 tour now

02:32:12 now the tour has been cancelled will have their thoughts directed towards this scheme um the uh kabura basa dam project um there was a group

02:32:25 project um there was a group called the um dumbbusters um mobilization committee is that what's envisaged there that the stop the 70 tour supporters

02:32:36 that the stop the 70 tour supporters would focus their attentions instead on the danbusters mobilization committee or or just causes or other campaigning groups towards the

02:32:49 towards the aim of the downbuster's mobilization committee which was to stop the building off that dam

02:33:02 off that dam can you remember um i don't remember the specific meeting or this specific proposal but there were clearly discussions that i do remember about what we do with the 72 now that it's

02:33:11 it's um achieved is subjective which is a very unusual situation for a political group like this to be in um

02:33:18 um and i was certainly someone who was arguing

02:33:23 arguing that with all this mobilization we would know

02:33:24 know we'd have the the names and details of thousands of people around the country who'd taken the time and trouble to get in touch with us and this the the movement

02:33:37 movement could be made or reinforced out of this i don't remember the um that there were ever was ever an agreement on a target or a focus for such a group um

02:33:51 or a focus for such a group um and i didn't there and i'm pretty sure that there wasn't and that therefore the kebora bus saddam development happened the mobilization happened independently

02:34:02 independently of any any influx from stsd individuals may well have gone i i believe that um christopher gurney who's on this afternoon will be able to give you better information on that

02:34:14 give you better information on that thank you i could my my experience of that discussion was that the idea of maintaining stst as a separate activity with obviously with some change of name

02:34:30 of name and focus was not implemented and in the sense it

02:34:30 sense it the group was i don't know exactly how democratic it was obviously the people who turned up to demonstrations had no vote or not persuading your voice and so the

02:34:43 persuading your voice and so the relatively small number of people were involved in organizing and for whatever reason by whatever dynamic in turn of that group which i wasn't central to uh basically it was wound up

02:34:57 uh basically it was wound up that there was no success or organization which i found thought was a disappointing and a waste

02:35:07 um can we move on very quickly please to the

02:35:07 the um sorry we'll just look at this photo

02:35:13 mps

02:35:31 0736399 answer tab 10 uh you wanna have your corners hardcopy bundle so

02:35:39 thank you um

02:35:51 this is a report which you deal with in your witness statement between paragraph seven and ten uh um about a meeting said to have taken place

02:36:00 place in uh your room at um the or certainly at the um the lse about a plan to form a group called keep politics out of cricket

02:36:14 called keep politics out of cricket commission and to circulate a petition and

02:36:17 and invite signatories to the petition to attend the ground which would have resulted in a confrontation between demonstrators and the police

02:36:29 demonstrators and the police and this report says that advertisement was placed in the telegraph and in the times with a box number and if we scroll down we can see that the text that appeared in the telegraph advertisement

02:36:54 a paragraph four in the personal column of the daily telegraph cricket lovers helped circulate a petition to save the 70s tour keep politics out of cricket

02:36:56 cricket and then a write cl triple 182 delhi daily telegraph ec 4

02:37:12 ec 4 um and i think that you say in your witness statement that this was a a complete fiction created by an acquaintance of yours who wanted to discredit uh you and your political affiliations

02:37:28 uh you and your political affiliations to undermine you in the eyes of another and

02:37:31 and uh this was a complete fiction that has been reported by the undercover police officer is that right

02:37:38 right that's correct yes i'm going to explain on that

02:37:42 on that i could do so um well i don't want you to i don't want to trespass into any any others that might be private to you because i i i know that you you of course you don't necessarily need to give us the background but i just wanted to ask you

02:37:56 background but i just wanted to ask you about this um it's said to be a meeting that took place in your room with a number of other people including somebody who'd not previously taken any part in any

02:38:09 previously taken any part in any stop the certainties talk activity that's in paragraph three and the text that apparently appeared in the daily telegraph gives a box number

02:38:22 a box number and i just wanted to ask you this that that box number it it would mean wouldn't it that this advertisement couldn't on its face be linked to to to you

02:38:36 had i put it in it would not have been noticeable now yeah no um and uh it it appears that the report seems to say that three on the 11th of may

02:38:52 say that three on the 11th of may at this uh this advertisement did appear in the daily telegraph can you recall that do you know anything about that i know i had nothing to do with any of this and it's interesting if you go scroll up a bit you see it's this one says

02:39:07 says information inquired from a reliable source it's not from a reliable and delicate source so i guess it's coming from some different source it's not and evidently it's not from the meeting it's something that's been acquired outside the meeting

02:39:18 outside the meeting [Music]

02:39:20 [Music] i'm i don't know by what mechanism this was uh noticed and brought to the police's attention and linked to me

02:39:32 police's attention and linked to me since it seems the advertisement doesn't mention me possibly special branch approaching the newspaper to say who put who put this

02:39:43 this advert in i don't know uh to whom would it be

02:39:43 it be sent my guess is i this was not the only example of its kind there was another

02:39:55 kind there was another one at very much the same period um inviting people to write in for pornographic material to me by name but this was this was in um i think that one i think was in

02:40:07 one i think was in either city limits or timeout i can't remember that one spotted by a friend of mine and happened to be doing the layout and on the magazine presumably in order to

02:40:19 on the magazine presumably in order to link it to you uh that friend of you you would have had to be a name you were named in that advertisement were you there

02:40:24 there my guess is the other one could only have been that all is this stuff from people writing to me

02:40:32 me from the box number the box number would come to me and i would therefore be aware of the risk that if i if i went on seeing the person that i was seeing um that all the stuff could could could be escalated that's all i can think but it has nothing to do with politicians

02:40:47 it has nothing to do with politicians anything to do with jealousy and rage and upset

02:40:52 and upset it's a bit shocking to see it here in in public inquiry thank you we can take that document down now please

02:41:05 now please ms hamilton i think it's right to say isn't it that this document is not we think uh an sds document oh that's right

02:41:15 yeah that's right i'm grateful uh um a final document uh before we uh move on to the arrest and prosecution at the star and garter um at ucpi zero zero

02:41:31 um at ucpi zero zero zero zero zero eight two four five please

02:41:46 i should say this is a very poorly very poor quality documents and it's quite difficult to to read this

02:41:59 to read this is a document a report about the meeting of the london action committee against racialism which appears to have been held at a private uh house on the 10th of september at 1971.

02:42:07 1971. um

02:42:14 that the subject of the meeting is mainly a a protest to be arranged at the miss world competition in 1971

02:42:27 world competition in 1971 and if we scroll down to paragraph four and five please

02:42:36 um the plan of action would be similar to that

02:42:41 to that of the previous year after gaining admission they hoped to generally direct sorry disrupt the contest if however access to the albert hall was

02:42:55 access to the albert hall was something the plan would plans would plans would be made to sabotage the news broadcasting vehicle

02:43:00 vehicle which were usually parked in the vicinity on the on in the previous year it's right has did there been a

02:43:17 it's right has did there been a a disruption of the miss world contest by the women's liberation movement is that right women's ablation front can you recall that yeah yes and this was a plan to stage something similar

02:43:32 something similar so it seems yes but if not to sabotage the new broadcasting the news broadcasting vehicle how would that have been achieved the sabotage the news broadcasting vehicle can you recall um i have no recollection of this at all

02:43:46 of this at all um to what extent was this connected to stst can

02:43:50 stst can i see peter ham's name is just visible at the bottom i don't know who was without the full document i don't know where this was or who was participating if you

02:44:02 if you if we just scroll down we can see that you were

02:44:05 you were present but other names present have been

02:44:06 been uh redacted for privacy purposes um so you were present at this meeting but it is

02:44:12 but it is your evidence that you've got no recollection of it i'm afraid not okay um just in the paragraph that's visible there paragraph seven on tuesday 21st september 1971

02:44:27 september 1971 peter hayne was due to i think it must say appear at bow street magistrates court somebody is redacted for privacy reasons that the earliest

02:44:41 that the earliest i think that must be opportunity would liaise with the young liberals in the hope

02:44:45 hope that a combined effort could be made to disrupt

02:44:48 disrupt the court proceedings together with a demonstration um can you recall any conversations of that nature sorry no this is this is as

02:44:59 sorry no this is this is as i'm assuming that i was actually there i didn't worse was that i can't imagine what the nature of the meeting was or that i would have been in any way involved

02:45:08 involved with that aspect since it seemed to be a young liberal thing um so you can't recall what might have been

02:45:16 been envisaged for the disruption of the court proceedings no absolutely not thank you we can take that document down now please

02:45:31 i'm now going to move on to the final topic which is the um demonstration at the star and garter hotel

02:45:40 hotel the subsequent arrest and conviction at the magistrates court well it seems to be a i'm just looking at a purple screen what if that document can be

02:45:47 can be fully taken down so i can

02:45:57 thank you uh um we understand that the plan at the star and garter hotel

02:46:11 at the star and garter hotel where the english rugby team was staying prior to their departure for south africa

02:46:15 africa was to attempt to disrupt their departure to the airport is that right to to interfere with their um taking an airplane to fly to south africa to begin their tour is that right

02:46:26 that right ideally have them mr plane yes um and you say in your witness statement that your

02:46:34 that your the plan had been to block their coach which was due to taking to the airport um

02:46:44 um in the car park so blocked the passage of the coach from the car park to the road to take them to the airport and the plan the demonstration was staged in the car park is that right

02:46:56 is that right that was a plan it seems that took shape at the house of ernest rodker and hn 298 mike scott the undercover police officer was present at that meeting it seems

02:47:13 at that meeting it seems can you recall mike scott or somebody of that name

02:47:17 that name being involved in anything about this mata

02:47:18 mata no zero and uh from the statement of hn29a2 i gather is mike scott we don't know what his real name is and i have i've had no photographs of him

02:47:31 i've had no photographs of him at the time which would enable me to identify him but from his own evidence and

02:47:38 and i i accept some of this is almost certainly true he he appeared on that afternoon or was it morning i don't even know what time of day it was having he said being told about this meeting by

02:47:54 meeting by peter hayne's mother whom he had phoned so he'd phoned up someone who was a dedicated and experienced south african political activist who'd been exiled to this country

02:48:05 been exiled to this country who had been the subject of amazing police intrusive behavior in south africa

02:48:08 africa and she is supposed to have told him oh if there's some there's something interesting going on in the afternoon why not go to this address in fulham i find this so implausible but the point is this guy therefore shows up having had no contact

02:48:22 shows up having had no contact also over the group having heard about this meeting somehow now he's not that presumably they're not obliged to tell the truth but it does seem to me more likely that they'd obtain their information in some other way

02:48:35 other way um possibly by a telephone tap or some other thing i don't know but he the result is he parachutes into this meeting and is accepted because we were not security conscious we didn't worry he

02:48:46 security conscious we didn't worry he said i heard about this from your mom i don't know what he may have said and we were milling around in fact i didn't i'm sure peter wasn't there so

02:48:57 there so um uncle peter didn't get involved in these sorts of activities um so i i guess we took it to him for granted because who the only people who knew about this were people that have been told by people who are

02:49:09 that have been told by people who are already involved in the special action group

02:49:12 group so you may say that was naive of us but there we are i have no visual recollection of him this this the special action group having uh been formed in what 1969

02:49:25 having uh been formed in what 1969 wasn't thereabouts was was still ongoing was it in

02:49:26 was it in may 1972. this was a sort of loose social contacts and friendship group yes sir

02:49:37 group yes sir so we knew some of the people and we i think a car which you mentioned a meeting of document just now that was one of the attempts to maintain some to generate some kind of continuing activity from stst

02:49:48 stst we were not part of a car but we were an informal group that thought we'd like to do some more stuff on the apartheid question which was our main preoccupation of time i think you should realize that at the time south africa was

02:50:01 was the dominant political activity for those who were progressive just as um some years later vietnam became the the central activity and as now in the same way

02:50:14 now in the same way palestine is the center of activity for people who care about human rights so that you need to understand its status that we were not just not just it dances saying oh let's have another go so that'll be this was a

02:50:27 another go so that'll be this was a a concern that had been going on by then since the boycott of south african goods started which was some 10 to 15 years previously there's been a continuing threat of activity so we gathered together and we did various actions together um

02:50:40 and we did various actions together um i can't remember all of them but one of them was around a there was the publicity that we picked up for trade centers that was going to be

02:50:47 be south african trade center that was going to be located in san martin's lane in a big in an office building there and we did those activities around there to make it clear to the people who might be letting it to them that this would cause trouble

02:51:02 them that this would cause trouble and we had demonstrations there so if this was not a one-off activity the the the hotel in enrichment but it was probably i think the last activity that we did in that way right thank you

02:51:13 thank you um can we now look at some of the documents and try and piece together um a kind of an account from the available

02:51:23 available uh documents please can we have up on screen mps-0526782

02:51:44 and once there can we go to page nine please

02:51:53 this is a composite document and so is we're going to be sort of dotting around a little bit i'm afraid

02:52:04 um the this is the uh officer's report about events of that day uh um and he begins his report setting out that this was a me that started it was initiated by a meeting

02:52:15 initiated by a meeting at ernest rodka's uh home address

02:52:26 at ernest rodka's uh home address and goes on to say that there were 21 people present at the bottom of paragraph

02:52:27 paragraph two he says this there appeared to be only a small group of three or four who had actually been involved from the beginning of the planning

02:52:41 beginning of the planning of what might correctly be described as a military-style operation rodka was the key figure of this group which also included uh jonathan

02:52:52 which also included uh jonathan rosenhead is that right were you and ernest rodker two of the the the main instigators and organizers of the activities of this uh group in particular in the

02:53:05 of this uh group in particular in the planning of this particular event would you say

02:53:06 you say that's right i'm sure there were others but we were certainly deeply involved to cultivate a military-style operation overestimating the chain of command that we had but we did try to think through

02:53:19 we had but we did try to think through what you might call a deployment how we might manage to make that parking lot hard for the coach to get out of they would be foolish to go there without thinking that through yes um scrolling on down the document please

02:53:40 uh um rodka with the help of a fairly accurate hand-drawn map of the relevant part of richmond indicated where people and cars should be positioned according to the turn of events and

02:53:52 according to the turn of events and outlined a variety of maneuvers designed to cope with most eventualities and paragraph four sets out the detailed plan that was to be put into place uh after some discussion about who should fill what roles

02:54:06 should fill what roles which was governed to a large extent by whether or not they had a car which could be used it was agreed that privacy would be the strikers it was their job to turn off the fuel supply to the england rugby team's coach or otherwise immobilize it and then to indicate to somebody else

02:54:20 and then to indicate to somebody else who's been redacted who will be playing football in a nearby field that it had been done they in turn would wait until the players began to board the coach

02:54:30 the coach and then indicate to somebody who's been transcribed as pt who would be stationed on richmond hill uh looking down upon them it was his job to inform rodka

02:54:41 to inform rodka and that's somebody else that the players were boarding the coach they should block the petersham the petersham road side of the car park with their cars after a time lapse of one and a half

02:54:52 after a time lapse of one and a half minutes the other three cars also parked on richmond hill were to block the nightingale lane car park exit

02:55:01 park exit the drivers of the vehicles were then to lock them up and block the path of the coach with their bodies to complicate matters further broadcard ordered two skips to arrive at the upper part of the car park at 4 00 pm

02:55:14 00 pm um you say in your witness statement that you think that sounds uh broadly accurate is that right that that was the plan i think it's actually rather impressive

02:55:25 think it's actually rather impressive remember we were doing all this without mobile phone so i'm not quite sure how the signaling was going on i imagine people up on a hill waving to somebody down but i could see them or vice versa but uh yes i i i'm

02:55:37 but uh yes i i i'm i think ernest was probably more involved in that than the the organization than i was but it looked like quite a well-thought-out plan

02:55:47 plan um you have submitted to the inquiry a series of

02:55:51 series of um printouts of uh the area and perhaps we could just i don't know quite how this is going to work remotely but perhaps we can just try and just have a little look to see whether we can make it clearer as to the geography um they are at ucpi zero

02:56:05 they are at ucpi zero zero zero zero zero three four o seven one please if we just have that up

02:56:16 seven one please if we just have that up if this is simply not going to work then perhaps we'll abandon it but we'll have it we'll have a go um this is this right this this shows the outside of the what was then the sarangata hotel is that right yes i think i'm i'm guessing this is i

02:56:30 yes i think i'm i'm guessing this is i don't think this is part of the car park that i was in there's a this is a i think a lane that's leading from the main road to the hotel and then there's another so you can't see me but if looking at the picture off to the left i think there was another car park

02:56:43 i think there was another car park another entrance i think you come in one way and

02:56:46 way and the other vice versa and i think the coach was on the other side we've got an aerial view coming up so perhaps we can scroll onto the next page please

02:56:55 please i think you'll have to turn the image of that

02:56:58 that it's a very nice hotel by the way my brother had his 16th birthday party there as it happened so i i was able to revisit

02:57:03 revisit it looks delightful um shows a slightly different view of the hotel and car park and and you see

02:57:17 the hotel and car park and and you see do you say round to the left um i think so that's

02:57:21 so that's going from memory and that appears to be a road leading up uh if you look at the extreme left of that image a road leading up past the hotel

02:57:27 hotel on a slight incline is that right uh going down the side that is i think the public road probably i'm not quite i may have got the the

02:57:37 the the car parks in the wrong order but there was a

02:57:42 was a one i think the way in and out from that lane

02:57:43 lane into different parts of the car park um the next image may make it a little bit clearer because it's a google maps image it may not but

02:57:57 it may not but we'll just look at it briefly if you can just help me with this as somebody who evidently knows the geography um we can see uh the little sort of hotel sign in the middle of the um image there the little kind of bed sign

02:58:15 sign with the road nightingale lane leading up from there to the petersham road and then running a little bit further up the page richmond hill running down the page

02:58:26 richmond hill running down the page uh past the the words the wick the the the parts

02:58:30 the parts in white there is that that that's the the hotel

02:58:36 the hotel premises is that right that's the car parks and the and the hotel itself and the roads are then in white nightingale um petersham road and richmond hill which are the the roads that we're associate we're concerned with does that sound right

02:58:48 right yes it doesn't actually look at all like i remember it but uh nightingale lane is something um i i guess that's probably about um

02:58:59 i guess that's probably about um a few hundred yards long i'm not sure it's not it's not quite as short maybe as it looks there and it's and it's almost a country lane and a part of the plan uh was that

02:59:13 and a part of the plan uh was that the that there are evidently two exits to the carpark the peterson road exit and the nightingale lane exit so it looks as if there's a there's a exit at the at the top of

02:59:26 there's a exit at the at the top of petersham road going down from the hotel and then one leading out from the other part of the car park is that right i mean it's very difficult to see from sorry i should always go back and have a look at it before because they may have changed their aim don't worry let's let's just let's just move on

02:59:41 move on uh please but next page please page four which i'm not really sure this is going to assist but um i want you to opportunity to look at it since you've provided it um what we can oh sorry

02:59:54 um what we can oh sorry what we can see there is in fact that's the start that's the other part of the star and garter isn't it rather than the hotel that's the wrong building yes the zaryan garter hotel that was for ex-servicemen

03:00:06 ex-servicemen and so on there's now been converting to luxury flats i believe but that's not that's not it that the sauron got a hotel in fact is at the top left isn't it where we can see

03:00:14 see very faintly written nightingale lane it's just up there and the wind can see the starting hotels from there right okay thank you okay i'm aware i think it says

03:00:22 says it's further away than that and um up on the top of the hill and where it's the pediatric motor is further down towards the river

03:00:35 towards the river thank you thank you over the page please page

03:00:36 page five

03:00:42 gives a rather more extreme sort of zoom out

03:00:45 out you can see there the distance is much greater yes so we can see the wick is right up next to richmond hill and the

03:00:50 the restaurant at the petersham the petersham hotel is down towards petersham road right at the bottom of that

03:00:59 that towards the bottom of that stretch yes and a nightingale lane leading from the peachtreum hotel to the um

03:01:05 um petersham road there and finally please the final one of your documents that you have

03:01:14 have provided to the inquiry which was probably

03:01:19 probably uh maybe the clearest next page please page six

03:01:36 which shows doesn't it the the car park in a little bit more detail perhaps

03:01:37 perhaps uh and uh the positioning of the peterson road and the night nightingale lane

03:01:44 lane can can you do you do you know where the individual cars were parked and what entrances were supposed to be blocked can you help us with that i can't even remember for sure where the where the coach was

03:01:57 where the coach was i'm pretty sure that so my car was one of the ones that was used to block and i'm pretty sure it's in that

03:02:06 that car park that's going up the hill towards nightingale lane yes my guess that's where it was because i think there was an exit there and we put some

03:02:16 put some a couple of cars there to stop the coach getting out too easily and i think there was another exit onto petersham road um but i'm not sure it doesn't look as there is

03:02:27 doesn't look as there is necessarily an exit there i think that the coach was probably located in this the shadow that's just behind the hotel now the shadow that the hotel is casting that would be my best guess

03:02:42 guess thank you thank you um can we return please now to

03:02:48 mps-0526782 and this time to page 10.

03:03:22 could you be to repeat the number it is um

03:03:23 um mps dash of

03:03:36 thank you and can we turn to page 10 of that document and just enlarge it a little please this is going back to the report

03:03:52 is going back to the report by hn298 of the events of that day and just looking at paragraph six before report departing for richmond vodka gave up the telephone number of several solicitors

03:04:04 several solicitors and the nccl he destroyed all the notes he'd made about the day's activities and told the others that if they were arrested it was essential that they should deny having met together previously and

03:04:15 having met together previously and should say that they had received a note through the post outlining the activities sorry the action which had been planned he added that this was to squash any possibility

03:04:26 possibility of a charge for conspiracy uh was it anticipated that you therefore that you may be arrested for the action that you took on that day

03:04:38 the action that you took on that day i didn't think there was any i i didn't remember discussion about conspiracy uh it wasn't a major part this was maybe like a little little warning that you give to people

03:04:51 give to people um like if when people were going out on demonstrations they sometimes people used to hand out lethal saying if you are arrested this is what this is what your rights are that's what you should do i think this is more

03:05:02 you should do i think this is more uh a low-key precautionary statement i don't think i don't remember being aware of it i don't remember destroying any any notes so i didn't think i knew what the law and conspiracy was

03:05:13 conspiracy was it wasn't in anticipation of the commission of any criminal offence you don't think no no it's just that i think we were vaguely aware that

03:05:25 i think we were vaguely aware that the things that were not themselves crimes could become a crime if they were if you if there was a conspiracy to do them and so that we didn't want to run that risk something in that area anyhow

03:05:36 risk something in that area anyhow and can you recall you you may not did you go straight from mr orca's house to the star and garter hotel can you recall that i must have done i can't i cannot remember

03:05:47 remember actually i can't remember the meeting at earnest house or the journey i just remember being in the car park but there's been lots of time for the memories to go paragraph eight in this report describes the

03:06:01 eight in this report describes the movement of the cars into the position and uh the arrival of the police and by 3 55 pm all were in their allotted positions and almost immediately the signal was

03:06:14 immediately the signal was received for vodka and privacy to leave after one and a half minutes the other cars departed uh from nightingale the nightingale lane exit as they did so a

03:06:25 exit as they did so a lorry containing an empty skip turned in front of them and drove into the car park

03:06:29 park three cars followed were confronted by a police officer who made no attempt to stop them blocking the coach's exit

03:06:39 stop them blocking the coach's exit they positioned the cars locked them and left later to join other demonstrators standing by the coaches with placards it would appear that the officer's presence in the car park had deterred at privacy

03:06:46 privacy from making any attempt at immobilizing the coach

03:06:55 does that roughly accord with your memory of the episode it's it's not inconsistent certainly i don't remember the detail but if there's nothing there i would seem to be wrong can we move on to paragraph 10 please

03:07:17 um paragraph nine sets out the uh attempts to move the vehicles to um block the that were blocking the passage of the coach and paragraph 10 says a melee ensued

03:07:34 and paragraph 10 says a melee ensued um with the demonstrators sitting on and in front of the vehicles whilst they were being lifted one of the hotel staff succeeded in ripping off half the front bumper of one car from its mounting i think that was in fact your car

03:07:47 car um and uh the police took responsibility for that

03:07:54 for that uh damage can you can you recall a melee would you have described it as a melee [Music]

03:08:00 there was a group of people clustered around

03:08:01 around the coach and i imagine not sitting down but uh there was no no fisticuffs nobody was

03:08:12 was trying to restrain us in any way by the way i didn't think it was the bumper i thought

03:08:15 thought it was the the roof rack that got damaged but who knows it doesn't matter now the officer may have accepted responsibility for it but i never got any money

03:08:26 um can we just very briefly return to paragraph five just slightly up the page

03:08:34 um um paragraph uh five uh the final the final two sentences of that paragraph rosenhead volunteered the use of three flares which he had with him

03:08:50 flares which he had with him but there was not much support for this that later at the car park he lit and threw a flare can you recall doing that absolutely not i think this uh possibly a mistaken identity isn't it isn't it likely that

03:09:01 isn't it likely that most of this report it seems reasonably accurate apart from slight inflation of language i i wouldn't have even had anything to light the flower with i have no recollection of ever owning a flare in my life it seems

03:09:15 my life it seems possibly somebody else but i don't remember any smoke in the um [Music]

03:09:20 [Music] or or or light or anything of that kind in the whole event it's all a beautiful sunny day um and i don't remember

03:09:25 remember anything consistent with that doesn't necessarily mean i didn't do it but i certainly

03:09:34 certainly don't think i did um just look let's look just very briefly as a um another report please um mps-0737

03:09:46 this is tab six of your bundle sir

03:10:00 thank you paragraphs um the second paragraph and the third paragraph

03:10:05 paragraph this is the the report from the officer that had one of the officers that attended

03:10:11 attended this incident and the second and third paragraph

03:10:14 paragraph set up what they found there the patrolling officer sbs attended it once just after 4 10 pm about 30 persons arrived and mingled with a crowd of hotel staff and residents and some building workers

03:10:30 and residents and some building workers in the car park of the hotel two of them two of them left morris minor motor vehicles in the car park entrance at nightingale lane blocking the way out for the rugby team's coach which was about to leave with helpful members of the public and

03:10:41 with helpful members of the public and police who've been called to the scene the sbs tried to move one of the vehicles then some of the 30 people who just arrived started sitting down in the road

03:10:49 road outside the same entrance and completely blocked the way they did so in groups of three or four at a time

03:11:00 at a time as each group sat sps asked them to move they refused and they were arrested whereupon a fresh group replaced them 14 people acting this way

03:11:07 this way taken to advance this station and charged

03:11:12 charged um does that accord with your memory of how this episode up played out that you i don't remember it in that detail

03:11:22 detail i didn't remember the this idea of people sitting down one of my you know small groups wasn't all together i it could well have happened i wouldn't i wouldn't substantiate that or deny it it's

03:11:33 it's it's it wouldn't make that much difference if we'd all sat down together or done it in groups and i can't think quite why we would have done it in groups but maybe we did

03:11:46 groups but maybe we did um it it's it's right i think from your witnesses it's right to say you've got little independent recollection of the court proceedings that followed your arrest your first appearance it seems as on the

03:11:59 appearance it seems as on the 14th of may sorry we can take that document down now please when it appears that not guilty pleas were entered to um obstructing a highway

03:12:12 um obstructing a highway and to a new charge uh with obstructing the

03:12:16 the charge with obstructing the police on on that occasion as well not guilty plea added to that as well um thereafter you were bailed it seems until the 14th of june and then two meetings

03:12:27 of june and then two meetings took place of your group at private houses they're just going to look very briefly at those meetings please can we have up

03:12:44 mps-0737109

03:12:58 this is a meeting which took place on the 21st

03:13:07 the 21st of may so six or seven days after that first court appearance at your house um and 13 people were in attendance including as we now know hn 298

03:13:20 as we now know hn 298 mike scott and also including ernest rodker

03:13:21 rodker and christabel gurney um this was a meeting was it not where you discussed your forthcoming uh court appearances

03:13:42 your forthcoming uh court appearances and how you were proposing to deal up with the case in hand is that right oh so it seems yes um paragraph two uh uh you uh it's uh set out there that you had um

03:13:53 uh set out there that you had um obtained a number of press photographs and in fact you've submitted a number of uh photographs with your witness

03:14:04 uh photographs with your witness statement are those the same photographs that are referred to in that paragraph they must be yes thank you i'm not going to take you through those but those those have been now published um paragraph six

03:14:15 now published um paragraph six please if we just scroll down the page slightly

03:14:19 slightly can i just say on that that um the stuff about uh

03:14:23 about uh photographs of showing people in the road um

03:14:30 road um i was never in the road and yet i was uh i was accused of being in the road so i don't know whether there was as as ernest has reported as saying that he was photographed in the road i just can't say but but if so he was the exception we were in the car park

03:14:42 the exception we were in the car park and it's quite a large car park as you saw and we were near the hotel and not of the road and that formed i think the basis of your defense for your trial is that right there were

03:15:04 um

03:15:20 yes rosenhead next began to compile a list of those who had witnessed the arrest of any of the others but most could not recollect the more important details that had occurred

03:15:28 occurred and then over the page please finally it was agreed that a small group including rosenhead vodka

03:15:39 including rosenhead vodka and two others would arrange an interview with ben bernberg um at the solicitor in about ten days time

03:15:44 time rocker suggested that all concerns should prepare a statement about what has happened and send it to burnberg's home address to enable him to get a clear picture of what had

03:15:54 what had happened and in fact you did i think speak to a solicitor and arrange for the solicitor to represent the group as a whole is that right not just a citizen ben bernberg is a

03:16:12 just a citizen ben bernberg is a highly esteemed uh human rights lawyer of an older general he's still alive he's a wonderful guy i don't i don't think he did become my own solicitor many years later but i i don't know who contacted him on this occasion

03:16:22 occasion um and uh the

03:16:30 request for uh notes about what had happened in fact we have we have one such set of notes do we not i think you have submitted it and perhaps we can have an extremely brief look at it ucpi zero zero

03:16:44 ucpi zero zero zero zero zero three three six two eight please

03:17:00 um and uh that just sets out the sort of covering letter as it were here with my rather uninformative account of the events of that fateful friday afternoon if we can turn on to page two

03:17:10 please

03:17:18 this is the tab 17 serve the hard copy bundle

03:17:23 bundle it's not terribly easy to read the top paragraph uh sets out the movement of the cars that this individual uh witnessed um

03:17:34 witnessed um and uh and the movement of a the arrival of a delivery van and a skip at the car park with skip of course having been organized by ernest rodker

03:17:51 and the people in the car park the second paragraph says this a smoke flare was set off for about 10 minutes after the start of the blocking attempt but well away at where for a while away from the scene of the

03:18:08 from the scene of the action that's probably a reference isn't it to the flare that was mentioned in mike scott's report but you say you don't think that was set off it might have been me but i just don't remember it i'm not thank you i'm not in a position to deny something i can't remember um the next uh paragraph

03:18:24 um the next uh paragraph reads after about 20 minutes most of the demonstrators had disappeared i could only see

03:18:24 only see mike scott and a girl whose name i believe wasn't something being redacted but trying to prevent the police from moving a red mini too roughly from the car park entrance

03:18:41 roughly from the car park entrance um and then in the fourth paragraph this writer says he then saw four demonstrators including mike scott and ernest rodker sitting on the grass verge of the road in police custody um you say you weren't aware of the

03:18:55 um you say you weren't aware of the presence of mike scott it does it follow then you can't really recall who was doing what and whether he might have been actively involved in the i did i didn't know he existed until

03:19:08 i did i didn't know he existed until these these papers started to emerge thank you

03:19:10 thank you um can we

03:19:18 move on please to the next document i'm going to take this quite shortly mps-0737108

03:19:38 um this is a report of a second meeting of some of those arrested after that demonstration at the star and garter held very shortly before your second appearance at court this is on the 11th of june again

03:19:52 of june again mike scott the undercover officer was present at this meeting it appears that at this meeting you that gave an account about your meeting with the solicitor ben

03:20:03 ben bernburg um can you recall giving such a an account perhaps you can't

03:20:14 perhaps you can't i said the account being what sorry account of your meeting with ben bernburg

03:20:16 bernburg um

03:20:16 um [Music]

03:20:25 i can't see that in the text closing who knows what i um it may not much matter perhaps we can just move on to paragraphs seven please because it's all deleted that i can't

03:20:37 can't i've got really no recollection of what it might have been that that i was reporting that might have helped

03:20:46 helped um some matters have been redacted from this document because they contain matters of legal professional privilege which is why they can't be um yeah i'm just explaining why i couldn't yeah really really

03:20:57 really paragraph seven can i just ask this that there was some concern over the costs of the case there was unanimous

03:21:11 costs of the case there was unanimous agreement that these should be defrayed equally regardless of individual fines and costs rocker suggested forming a defense fund as a means of uh raising the proportion of the expenses it decided to set up the richmond park defense britain defense fund sorry

03:21:23 fund sorry privacy agreed to insert an appeal in peace news and rosenhead added and christopher gurney can do the same with the aam the anti-apartheid movement was it anticipated that the anti-apartheid movement might be able to meet some of the costs of your your defense costs there was no

03:21:36 your your defense costs there was no expectation but it was an exploration that since christopher was very has been involved from from then until now with anti-apartheid matters that she would be well placed to find out if they would do it

03:21:52 find out if they would do it thank you just moving on very briefly please to paragraph eight

03:22:01 um the fundamental only fundamental difference we resolved was at least three of the number and it sets out the names there wanted to try to establish what they described as a precedent

03:22:14 they described as a precedent for furthering mckenzie representation not only did they want as is traditionally committed a layman in the court who could suggest lines of questioning for the defendant to pursue but furthermore a layman who was able to represent them in the same way that a solicitor might

03:22:27 way that a solicitor might they anticipated that a magistrate might not permit this and that they would be granted a further remand of one month for their case to be presented to the queen's bench division

03:22:39 queen's bench division um do you have any uh recollection of a further remark after your case was heard on the 14th of you appeared in court on the 14th of june it doesn't appear that you were convicted on that day unlike others might you have been part of this group

03:22:51 might you have been part of this group that sought the furthering of mackenzie representation um if you don't remember i didn't understand why i was i think ernest was reminded as

03:23:06 ernest was reminded as well for a further period and i didn't know why it wasn't dealt with some people were dealt with summer summarily on the occasion and others were not and i noticed i got a bigger a bigger fine some people got two bands fine and i got ten pounds fine i didn't know why i was

03:23:17 know why i was privileged in that way i didn't do more than the others it was the same offense sarah i noticed the time i've only got two more reports left to look at

03:23:28 two more reports left to look at it's likely to take about 10 minutes i don't know whether it's more sensible to to complete this now before breaking or whether to adjourn for lunch and come back at

03:23:44 adjourn for lunch and come back at ah sorry i'm told the shorthand writer requires a break i'm awfully sorry but i've literally got 10 minutes more so it won't be very long after lunch may i just ask the shorthand writer through you please

03:24:02 through you please to reconsider you've got 10 minutes left we then have to have a quarter of an hour break to commit anyone who has any questions to put them

03:24:10 put them to you uh it may well be that mr reizer wants to

03:24:14 wants to re-examine and all of that is going to take

03:24:14 take us well into the lunch break if we

03:24:23 run until we finish it it seemed to me to be sensible for you to finish your 10 minutes now and press then to break for lunch when all of those things can take place without interrupting proceedings further

03:24:36 proceedings further otherwise ms gurney is going to be um i think unreasonably delayed i'm told the shorthand grip writer is agreeable to that course so we we can complete this now i'm ungrateful and i just confirmed with professor rosenhead that that

03:24:50 rosenhead that that does not inconvenience him that's fine good

03:24:51 good thank you very much um

03:25:03 penultimate report please uh mps-0526782 which is the composite that we've already looked at but i want to just look at a different page of it please oh five two six seven eight two thank you

03:25:16 seven eight two thank you and can we go to page page four please

03:25:32 paragraph uh six of that this is about your appearance and court on the 14th of june of 1972 paragraph six indicates that the conclusion of the proceedings

03:25:45 conclusion of the proceedings christophel gurney and mike scott hn298 were found guilty and uh fined and um conditionally discharged um but at paragraph five

03:25:58 um but at paragraph five it appears uh that your case and that of ernest rodker were adjourned until the 28th

03:26:04 the 28th of june have you got any recollection of why that happened yeah and apparently there were two other people who are with us and i have no idea

03:26:17 idea why we were selected for this treatment sorry

03:26:18 sorry can we go back please to page three of this document just to see if this sheds any light on it it may not but i just want to ask you um this is a

03:26:33 um this is a the sds

03:26:37 the sds management report on this uh incident uh reporting back as to what had happened from hn hn294

03:26:51 had happened from hn hn294 who was the di of the sds at the time um who says um that in the third paragraph down having said that

03:27:04 down having said that various appeared on the 14th of june the remaining seven asked for their cases to be heard at a higher court and have been remanded further remarked until the 28th of june 1972.

03:27:19 of june 1972. can you can you recall requesting that your

03:27:20 your case was heard by the crown court i assume this was part of the advice by ben bernburg and i assume that he was saying there

03:27:32 and i assume that he was saying there was an advantage to going to a higher court maybe you can express your arguments in a fuller way i don't know and i guess the people who the seven who didn't do that were the ones who just

03:27:45 didn't do that were the ones who just wanted to get it disposed of now and not have to come back again another time so i assume it was that sort of selection self-selection rather than anything else uh we can take that document now down now please

03:28:00 now please the the point at issue during your trial you say in your witnessing was the location of the demonstration on whether or not

03:28:04 or not you were obstructing a highway or simply impeding the progress of the coach in the car park is that right that was the main plot at issue well that was the issue

03:28:19 plot at issue well that was the issue about whether we whether we were guilty as charged obviously the the main issues about the party in south africa but that was not sorry that was the main issue that was the main pointed issue during the course of the

03:28:28 of the court proceedings um and you say that whilst you have no independent recollection of the court proceedings you assume you pleaded guilty and had a trial

03:28:43 pleaded guilty and had a trial on that issue you did not guilty not guilty and had a trial yes yes i i remember that must have been the 28th of june

03:28:54 the 28th of june uh and you say that you seem to remember that you gave evidence that you were in the car park and you seem to remember others saying the same is that right yeah i i decided to say my mother my late mother was a magistrate up in

03:29:08 my late mother was a magistrate up in liverpool and she knows that i tell the truth

03:29:10 truth and she also knew the police officers tell the truth so when i told her what had happened with police officers basically lying through their teeth about where we were she she found this really a lot of cognitive dissonance she didn't know how to handle this but

03:29:23 didn't know how to handle this but she had to believe the police officers could lie all that i did so i just um i have i i recall this issue very acutely because of that yes yes um the

03:29:39 final document i want you to just very briefly look at is um mps-073712 six

03:29:51 um mps-073712 six please and whilst that's just being obtained you you say that you you seem to remember giving evidence you seem to remember of the others giving evidence

03:30:02 giving evidence can you recall does it follow you since you can't recall mike scott at all you can't recall whether he would have given evidence during the course of the trial yeah in fact whether he was in in the same court proceedings at that stage as you were

03:30:16 stage as you were he was reminded to the higher court as well was he uh no it doesn't appear so so the the the proceedings in those calls were extremely

03:30:27 those calls were extremely um abbreviated as i recall because they processed it all very quickly um i think that the fact that he was there is so outrageous that he that he sat in

03:30:41 is so outrageous that he that he sat in on our meetings with ben burnley because ben came to the court i think on that occasion

03:30:44 occasion so he would have been privy not just to reports of the interaction with the lawyer but actually there and then clearly reporting on that to the police so they would know that we were going to be making a case about it being in the wrong place

03:30:55 about it being in the wrong place all of that is seemed to me a total miscarriage of justice and speaks very badly for

03:31:05 badly for the political ethics of that time of that place

03:31:13 this final document uh just sort of perhaps completes this episode can we turn on to page three please of this document

03:31:33 towards the bottom of the page the bottom two entries that we can see that ernest vodka appears to have been convicted of obstructing a highway and obstructing the police and he was fined two pounds with ten pounds cost with

03:31:45 pounds cost with an and a conditional discharge on the 12th of july 1972 your name appears thereafter also charged with obstructing the highway and obstructing the police

03:31:57 obstructing the police also on the same date but fined 10 pounds

03:31:58 pounds with costs but no evidence offers neo no evidence offered on the second charge that of obstructing the police can you recall

03:32:10 recall you recall that well i didn't obstruct the police um but it's interesting that i i was that charge was dismissed um ernest was not dismissed

03:32:24 um ernest was not dismissed he was conditionally discharged and bound over whatever for two years yet he gets only a two pound fine and i get a ten pound five uh i'm not quite sure what i did to annoy the magistrate um really weird

03:32:37 um really weird does it follow since you were had no awareness of mike scott in your group that you had no awareness during the course of those criminal proceedings

03:32:48 course of those criminal proceedings that there was an undercover officer in your midst weren't informed of that no and reading the documents it seems that nobody in the court was informed indeed i think the

03:32:59 the well i'd be interested to hear brackets mike scott's evidence uh i think he's talking on tuesday too but but in his written evidence he doesn't say that anybody in court was informed which is uh

03:33:13 informed which is uh extreme thank you professor rosenhead and you've you set out in your witness statements uh the consequence that you see as having flow from that lack of disclosure and those are all going to be taken into account

03:33:28 going to be taken into account by the chairman when he considers what uh uh information uh to pass on to those that might need to see it um

03:33:39 it um that completes the the questions i have say one more thing or are you going to give me a chance so i didn't interrupt you

03:33:46 you no not at all not at all no president that that was going to be my final question

03:33:48 question um we have your very helpful and complete witness statement that will be taken into account uh um but i wanted to ask you whether there was anything that you uh wanted to add that you hadn't um

03:34:05 uh wanted to add that you hadn't um set out in that in that document that you wish the chairman to take into account

03:34:09 account but clearly i mean this inquiry is about what happened then but it's also clearly supposed to inform decision making now and i do think that the the emphasis then entirely

03:34:23 the emphasis then entirely on radical liberal radical and trade union organizations and to the virtually complete neglect of any danger from the right which arguably was much greater is

03:34:34 much greater is is striking and i'm worried i think we should think about this in terms of what's going on now i i am concerned in terms of the behavior of our my very own undercover police officer about

03:34:46 officer about the current legislation about making it actually uh changing the legal basis for in covert human intelligence sources activities so i do think that the um i hope that the the this inquiry will

03:35:05 i hope that the the this inquiry will perhaps retrospectively get those powers um

03:35:05 um reconsidered and the general picture that's going on reinforcing police fires powers is worrying given the evidence that we have

03:35:18 that we have in this case and there is a continuing police um

03:35:24 police um culture if you like of the abusive power and i i don't think that i think the people are doing this valuable service for the community which is

03:35:36 for the community which is raising issues which are uncomfortable they were uncomfortable for the powers that be in 1972 even though we now think that opposition to apartheid

03:35:45 apartheid is uh everybody's against it but they weren't then and that people who are pushing against the established view should not be subjected to these kinds of intrusive powers unnecessarily

03:35:59 thank you professor risenhead um so those are all the questions i have for professor rosenhack thank you may i ask mr ryder if he is listening whether he has whether he's likely to have any re-examination

03:36:18 uh thank you sir at the moment i don't anticipate any questions thank you i asked mary to help with timing so that

03:36:32 timing so that mrs gurney is not um told to appear when or requested to appear when she's not actually

03:36:33 actually needed yes of course very well uh we will um adjourn now until

03:36:43 until a quarter past two uh when uh if there are any further questions of professor rosenhead uh they will have been forwarded to ms hamerston and she will if she thinks it right ask them

03:36:58 if she thinks it right ask them otherwise we will then proceed to hear the evidence of this girl thank you thank you we will now take a break for lunch may i remind those in the virtual hearing room

03:37:13 remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join their breakout rooms please hearings will resume at 2 15 p.m thank you

03:39:46 you