Oli Rodker - Ernest Rodker Stop the Seventy Tour

Full transcript

00:09:17 petrol hearing room please remember to turn off both your camera and microphone i will now hand over to the chairman sir john mitting to continue proceedings chairman thank you mr rodka's

00:09:32 thank you mr rodka's son is now going to read his witness statement the usual video will not be played because this is being transmitted live and anyone is free to

00:09:46 live and anyone is free to tweet or transmit what is going on at any time mr rodger thank you good afternoon um

00:09:57 thank you good afternoon um i'm uh actually going to be reading just the most salient parts of ernest's statement so not every every word um stop me if you're losing track and that's just to save time

00:10:08 that's just to save time i will be reading obviously all the relevant parts um can i just forgive me for interrupting a moment if you're not going to read the whole statement it may be that you can complete this task

00:10:22 complete this task by about a half past three if you're going to do that then we won't take a break um i am not i i haven't sort of read it out out loud but i'm not predicting it won't take more than an hour so yes i would hope we would be finished by half three thank you

00:10:37 by half three thank you um i believe there's a photo document 0.50

00:10:40 0.50 uh if i could just um show that's a photograph of my father ernest to show the inquiry to begin with

00:10:50 is that there would i see it if it was there

00:10:56 it has not yet appeared but i can i can

00:11:13 that's it uh okay so that's my that's my father ernest um thanks very much um so to start the statement my full name is ernest rodker on the

00:11:25 my full name is ernest rodker on the 20th of december 2019 i was provided with a rule 9 request to provide evidence to the inquiry it relates to some of my campaigning activities over a period of 30 years from the late 60s to the late 1990s and poses questions relating to my

00:11:38 poses questions relating to my interaction with a number of undercover police officers including jim pickford michael scott phil cooper jim sutton andy davey

00:11:50 phil cooper jim sutton andy davey and mike ferguson i have been provided by the inquiry with a bundle of about 53 documents with a rule 9 request posing 22

00:11:57 posing 22 questions

00:12:05 stop the 72 campaign i'm asked what my political activities as a member of the stop the 70 tour were including my positions of responsibility and the dates held i was active in stop the 70

00:12:19 the 70 tour throughout its existence it started in 1969

00:12:26 in 1969 until it was disbanded in may 1970 with the cancellation of the planned 1970 cricket tour of the uk by the white only south african team

00:12:38 african team the campaign against sports connections with south africa continued beyond the 1970s in other forms and i remained involved in those campaigns i did not have a formal position within stop the 70 tour as far as i recall i was active in a much smaller group of activists a direct action group

00:12:53 activists a direct action group dag for short which i also described below

00:12:58 i am asked what were the aims of stop the 70 tour its immediate and principal aim was to stop the white only south african cricket team from touring the uk in 1970

00:13:11 from touring the uk in 1970 more broadly its aim was to make a very strong political point that people representing apartheid were not welcome in the uk i'm asked about its methods we sought to impress on the south

00:13:25 we sought to impress on the south african teams the fact that as an all-white team effectively promoting the apartheid regime they were not welcome we wanted them to know the level of opposition there was to what they stood for

00:13:37 for and for them to reflect on whether it was the right thing practically and ethically to tour the uk we used all classic forms of non-violent direct action

00:13:49 direct action nvda pitch invasions were the most prominent

00:13:53 prominent we understood and sought to follow the well-known principles of nvda and civil disobedience learn from recent history

00:14:00 history such as the struggle for indian independence by mahatma gandhi and for black civil rights by martin luther king i personally had already absorbed and applied these principles

00:14:12 applied these principles as a result of my earlier involvement in the committee of 100 which was referred to below so for the stop the 70 tour it was clearly understood by anyone who came across uh

00:14:24 came across uh stop 72 or participated in its demonstrations that we would only engage in peaceful campaigning this was made known openly and explicitly regularly at meetings

00:14:36 explicitly regularly at meetings it was a common understanding for all those involved this comment applies to all other campaigns i was involved in such as a direct action anti-apartheid group i was involved in below and the committee of 100 below

00:14:52 i am asked if stop the 72 vetted its members

00:15:05 my uh my comments relate uh principally to stop the 70 tour um but i was also involved in a smaller group involved in direct action i cannot now remember what name this direct action group was known by these activities included things like going to a team hotel to carry out demonstrations there

00:15:22 demonstrations there for example in the campaign against the white only south african rugby team in 1969

00:15:26 1969 i booked into a hotel in an affluent part of central london overnight where the team was staying i sat among the players in the lounge eavesdropping on them and getting their room numbers while

00:15:38 and getting their room numbers while they were still in the lounge or having supper

00:15:42 supper i may myself have glued their door locks and certainly shared the room numbers with other campaigners who did so only a couple of doors were affected in this way but i understand it had an impact on the south africans

00:15:56 impact on the south africans they were unhappy about this i learned later from a journalist connection of peter hayne on other occasions we waited outside the team's hotels for them to get on their coaches

00:16:05 coaches we then got on the coaches as well and refused to leave we had to be carried out this both delayed the team and caused them inconvenience

00:16:18 it is worth underlining that we were effective in the sense that in the short term

00:16:21 term the rugby team was we learned keen to stop the tour and wanted to go home as a result of our actions in the medium term

00:16:29 term we contributed towards a decision to abandon the 1970 cricket tour plans and in the long term we contributed to the isolation of apartheid south africa from international sport

00:16:40 from international sport a factor in its eventual downfall

00:16:48 i know i am not asked about my knowledge or interaction with mike ferguson i can say that i don't remember this person i

00:16:55 person i understand in any event that this is the officer's real name as opposed to his cover name the name i might have known him by and if i am said to have come across him it would obviously help to know his cover name

00:17:07 cover name if i were asked to comment on him i would also be assisted by seeing the con temporaries photograph of him and other information about what he looked like and what his involvement with me was

00:17:23 with me was i'm asked about the stop the 70 tour first national conference on the 7th of 1970 and a report on it dated 9th to the 3rd 1917.

00:17:36 1917. specifically i am asked if this meeting was open to the public in the morning and private delegates only in the afternoon

00:17:37 afternoon i cannot remember if this was public in the morning and private in the afternoon

00:17:50 i am asked by reference to paragraph eight at page three of the report about stop the seventy tour's attitude to violence

00:17:53 violence i agree that we were committed to non-violent direct action i would not accept that it was right or accurate to describe our tactics as the report does

00:18:04 report does as quote militant particularly given the connotations of that word in that era

00:18:15 of that word in that era yes we were committed to disrupting the apartheid south african sports teams but it was always very clear and frequently said that our opposition to them would not include acts of personal violence towards them for example punching them it involved peaceful civil disobedience

00:18:29 peaceful civil disobedience it also included relatively minor damage to property for example gluing door locks but nothing more significant than that anyone attending any of the meetings or

00:18:41 anyone attending any of the meetings or participating in the campaign generally would be made aware of this and by continuing to be involved would be understood to have committed to these principles the common and the fundamental principle it kept to

00:18:54 it kept to was nvda no violence to people and only minor proportion of damage to property

00:19:10 this is paragraph 47 now i am asked how concerned we were generally about the risk of reporting by undercover officers there was an awareness that it would almost certainly be the case that there would be infiltrators within the movement and that more generally

00:19:21 that more generally the authorities were trying to monitor what we were doing by the use of phone tapping and suchlike and the placing of people covertly at meetings

00:19:33 meetings our principal concern was that the uk police were the ones monitoring and infiltrating us and this included the possibility of there being the likes of undercover police officers in our midst

00:19:44 police officers in our midst i assumed that the apartheid south african authorities and security services

00:19:47 services also had an interest in may have monitored or infiltrated and may even have taken action against the anti-apartheid movement

00:19:56 movement i assume that they were particularly interested in the high-profile organizers those who were central to the national campaign

00:20:07 our overriding response to this was that none of this should deter us doing what we plan to do and of course some actions were planned outside the wider group to keep them secret and guard against the risk of them being known to anyone monitoring us

00:20:21 i am asked if i was surprised to learn that undercover officers reported on my stsd activities as the acronym for stopping tour i am not surprised that they monitored my activities

00:20:36 my activities this is partly because before i was involved in the campaign against apartheid i was involved in the committee of 100. this was a british anti-nuclear group of the 1960s

00:20:44 the 1960s it had come to the attention not only of the media but also police the prosecutors and the courts as a result of a high profile campaign and campaigning methods involving nonviolent direct action

00:21:00 nonviolent direct action for example through my involvement in the committee i and many others in the committee including the philosopher bertrand russell had been sent to prison as a result of our campaign of nonviolent direct action against u.s nuclear bases

00:21:11 against u.s nuclear bases this came about when a number of us were prosecuted for planning disruptive demonstrations and civil disobedience we appeared i think both in magistrates court and were found guilty

00:21:22 court and were found guilty of a breach of the peace or some similar wrong

00:21:25 wrong we were given the option of agreeing to be bound over to keep the peace or to go to prison for three months or more most of us chose to go to prison i seem to remember that some

00:21:40 to prison i seem to remember that some of the evidence used against us included evidence from the police of covert surveillance of our plans and discussions for action

00:21:47 action i am asked to what extent did 72 break the law in order to further its aims i am asked this question in the context of a report on a meeting of the london region conference of stop 70 tour a meeting i am said to have chaired on the 5th of april 1970

00:22:03 the 5th of april 1970 in saint pancras london which mentions the possibility of conspiracy charges

00:22:10 the direct action group i've just dropped down to paragraph 55 the direct action group was about planning actions rather than for organizing public events or

00:22:17 or published in the conventional sense certainly direct capturing group could not be described as delicate to the stock

00:22:24 stock 70 tour in the way the planning committee was apparently seen in this report

00:22:34 report but yes we were aware that conspiracy or other criminal offences might be used against us i have no legal training but i understand that at this time the now discredited conspiracy charge could be used to prosecute as a criminal offence the planning of white

00:22:46 offence the planning of white what might otherwise amount to civil wrongs such as trespass and further in those days the use of conspiracy charges took on a political aspect

00:23:01 we were involved in civil disobedience we were putting our bodies in the way of apartheid south african tourists we were not planting bombs we were not even carrying out wanton acts like going into south african rooms and trashing belongings

00:23:17 belongings we were doing nothing on the scale of what the south african state regime was doing to its majority black citizenship under apartheid systematically and repeatedly under cover of the law and i know that of paragraph 11 of page 3 of this report is recorded that stopper 72 noted the

00:23:35 is recorded that stopper 72 noted the quote necessity for the maintenance of strict discipline within these groups who would be participating in the demonstrations unquote this is correct what we did not want was for people to get over excited and say

00:23:45 and say punch a south african cricketer or try to rip their clothes or throw a bomb we were keen to keep away from violent actions

00:23:51 actions the main tactic of stock 72 and the actions of the majority of those taking part in its demonstrations was to run onto cricket and rugby pitches to disrupt the play i think i'm right in saying that this

00:24:04 i think i'm right in saying that this was seen as a trespass and trespass was not at that time a criminal offence i don't know for sure if getting on a bus and stopping it from moving was a criminal offence i think it was not

00:24:16 criminal offence i think it was not but i did all these things i sat on a cricket pitch at least once at lord's and may have attempted something similar at the oval i cannot remember what happened to me in

00:24:28 i cannot remember what happened to me in terms of the law but i do remember being carried out by security or police and being kicked by spectators i also painted slogans on the wall on lords

00:24:38 lords uh on the walls outside alongside john's road i wrote a message like stop the tour go home something along those lines we did not write offensive swearing messages

00:24:48 messages i did not put tic tacs on pictures i would have considered that as violence this was not part of stop the 70 tours or my direct action group

00:24:59 or my direct action group we disapproved of this sort of action and this was well known i do not recall digging up pitches myself

00:25:06 myself i may have put weedkiller on the pitch or this though i would have considered marginal in terms of justification within nvda as it was non-harmful of people so i may have considered it

00:25:20 have considered it the test against how we measured our actions was not whether it broke the law but whether it was consistent with non-violent direct action principles these were observed by those involved in the campaigns i was involved in

00:25:34 the campaigns i was involved in it was understood by those taking part it was frequently discussed it was implicitly understood as a core value of those engaging in the campaign against the apartheid south african

00:25:47 the apartheid south african regime we did not want our principal message to be confused by adverse publicity about violence one factor in our thinking was that we wanted to set ourselves apart from the extreme of violence which the apartheid south african regime was showing to its black citizens

00:26:06 um section 8 pavement i'm asked to summarize my political activities as a member of the pavement collective pavement collective ran from about 1970 for about 20 years certainly for many many years i was one

00:26:20 certainly for many many years i was one of the main motivators behind setting it up

00:26:23 up and running it throughout there were others involved too they they may not have been involved throughout some of the meetings were held at my house i think i was still living in fulham

00:26:39 fulham and i dress on rumbled road at the beginning of pavement's lifespan i later moved to an address in wandsworth most meetings were at the people's aid and action center meetings were also held at the home address of one of the others who were active

00:26:52 active i was on the payment collector's editorial committee throughout its existence

00:26:59 its aim was to report on local activity and the actions of local community groups

00:27:00 groups we sought to publicize the actions of those who defended their local community and to encourage campaigns by local communities on issues like housing on race jobs and similar

00:27:17 on race jobs and similar we also sought to challenge the council on some of its policies around housing and redevelopment and this brought us into opposition with developers we also received support for example on the 18th on

00:27:28 the 18th on on the 18th birthday payment we received letters of support from the likes of michael foot mp the former labour leader and donald trulford the editor of the observer and the team at the windsor floor center i am asked about its methods

00:27:41 i am asked about its methods the pavement collective was a grassroots community initiative based mainly around a publication pavement this was circulated on the streets in sympathetic news agent and outlets

00:27:53 outlets in local housing estates and in community centres we sold it and it came out about once a month

00:28:00 month we also took action for example by having a presence outside roswell's town hall

00:28:06 hall on the evenings of council meetings and similar

00:28:08 similar the numbers ranged between just a handful and hundreds depending on what the council was discussing or two occasions we also intervened in council meetings

00:28:19 council meetings either full council meetings or committee meetings we did so by standing up in the public gallery and putting questions to the counsellors in one or two cases we held a

00:28:31 in one or two cases we held a demonstration near a counsellor's home address

00:28:32 address the demonstration would take place on the road outside and we would not seek to enter their homes which were all set back from the road we wrote letters to the local and

00:28:45 we wrote letters to the local and sometimes national papers with our concerns about issues we thought important

00:28:47 important and while there were issues affecting the local community we also leafleted and organized public meetings challenging what the council was doing these meetings were on issues like the development of fantasy power station

00:29:03 development of fantasy power station there were one or two very big meetings on that and the sale of council houses and the cuts in council services

00:29:10 am i asked if pavement vetted its members

00:29:13 members we did not go through the kind of vetting process a large group would need the core group was roughly about 10 of us i wouldn't call them members and we knew each other

00:29:27 i am asked if we were concerned about infiltration by police or others and we were concerned in principle but we were also a small group of people

00:29:38 we were also a small group of people most of whom had known each other over a long period of time and therefore trusted each other

00:29:44 i believe that jim pickford undercover officer had infiltrated pavement the editorial committee by late 1976. i refer to minutes i have of a pavement editorial committee meeting in november 1976

00:30:00 1976 i would like to know more about what jim pittsford did within pavement and when and why

00:30:08 it appears that another undercover officer michael scott was also active in pavement

00:30:12 pavement i referred to a box file entry of mine uh

00:30:16 uh michael scott describes michael squat michael scott there's a document reference on that entry i recall that he is connected with pavement sales

00:30:29 is connected with pavement sales as well as young libs this suggests to me that the uco michael scott was involved in selling pavement

00:30:35 i would like to understand why pavement was

00:30:36 was seemingly targeted by a number of undercover officers for example whether it was used as a way of building undercover officers credibility within other movements and campaigns

00:30:51 within other movements and campaigns um i'm going forward to section 10 the battery redevelopment action group which is uh paragraph 96 and i believe you have a photograph um reference 051.051

00:31:06 reference 051.051 which shows my dad's campaigning in battersea at that time and if that could be put up please

00:31:18 and if that could be put up please that's the one um that's uh that was a stopping at trying to stop a development in battersea um and there was uh

00:31:30 um and there was uh there was a demonstration at the development and he's a that's earnest as standing above a billboard okay thanks very much

00:31:42 um so paragraph 96 i was asked to summarize my political activities and as a member of battersea redevelopment action group that's bragg for short i was active in setting up bragg in about 1972

00:31:56 about 1972 and remained active until it was disbanded many uh after many years at least a decade later

00:32:05 later i would not give myself a formal title within bragg and others did not have formal positions either i was one of the group of people taking decisions that group fluctuated in numbers

00:32:12 numbers the core group was no more than 10 in number and it was even smaller than that at times

00:32:25 i am asked what bragg's aims were and whether they were accurately reflected in a report i have been shown dated 23rd of december 1974. the report i am referred to does not accurately reflect bragg's aims

00:32:40 paragraph 102 the brag campaign was much broader than this our main activity revolved around what was happening at battersea power station the council and private developers wanted to transform it into a luxury housing

00:32:53 housing if the power station was to be developed bragg wanted there to be affordable council housing and community projects and facilities this was bragg's overarching objective we also campaigned against the council selling off other property

00:33:08 selling off other property selling off council houses in the area these were the sorts of general concerns we had and campaigned on

00:33:16 i am asked if bragg subscribed to a particular political doctrine there was no party political doctrine the politics we espoused were based on the principle that council developments

00:33:28 the principle that council developments and initiatives should be public and for the community rather than private and full commercial interests

00:33:35 interests it was a typical community project campaign founded on localism i am asked what methods bragg used to advance its aims we were committed to conventional

00:33:46 we were committed to conventional campaigning methods and of course the principle of non-violence within that framework we considered any appropriate action leafleting an area organizing public meetings in local areas door knocking on certain issues

00:34:02 certain issues in a wider sense we would go to council meetings and put questions to the council

00:34:04 council intervening from the public gallery if that's what was needed to ensure our questions were asked and the answers were given

00:34:14 and we were also active in public inquiries and planning applications around the development of battery power station

00:34:21 station and the area around it particularly along the riverfront

00:34:30 i am asked if bragg vetted its members we felt that we did not need to vet anyone

00:34:31 anyone but suspicions concerning one person did lead us to a confrontation at one of our committee meetings and that person was excluded

00:34:42 excluded i recall it was quite an unsettling incident

00:34:43 incident our concern may have been whether that person was an undercover police officer and i would like to know from this inquiry whether that person was an undercover police officer or similar

00:35:04 more broadly i would like answers from this inquiry on the following issues i would like to know if any other undercover police officer beyond those already disclosed to me was involved in any of the campaigns i have been involved in i would like to know what information

00:35:18 i would like to know what information ucos obtained from those campaigns and what was done with that information i would also like to know whether and if so how any uco sought to disrupt the campaigns

00:35:27 campaigns did any uco seek to have a genuine campaigner ejected from the campaign for example

00:35:35 example i'm concerned about uco's interfering in the organizing of political groups such as the ones i was involved in and it is worth bearing in mind that these are often small groups run by their members all of whom are volunteers

00:35:47 members all of whom are volunteers and i would be very concerned to learn if ucos were participating in the political decision making of those groups

00:35:54 groups i hope that the inquiry will address these issues uh going to go forward to paragraph 123. um i'm asked how frequently

00:36:12 123. um i'm asked how frequently i experienced violence during my time at bragg or any other group going forward again to 127. there was police violence against the committee of 100 when there were demonstrations at the american embassy or a nuclear base

00:36:27 american embassy or a nuclear base we were knocked about by the police when we were arrested or even moved from the base

00:36:27 base sometimes the physicality was quite severe they dragged people by the hair accidentally in quotes stamping on people so

00:36:36 people so they drank people by the hair and in quotes accidentally unquote stamping on people when trying to remove them i was occasionally stamped on i

00:36:47 i was occasionally stamped on i witnessed others being stamped on or pulled by their hair all of our actions were passive forms of civil disobedience such as lying in the road

00:36:55 road as to stop the seventy tour and the direct action group i also experienced or witnessed violence when i was involved in a demonstration at the center of lord's qriket ground i remember the stewards

00:37:10 remember the stewards or even members of the public roughed us up unnecessarily when dragging us off the pitch

00:37:11 the pitch they also surreptitiously punched us i remember being dragged past the seated spectators and the crowd kicking me on the way causing me bruising i witnessed similar things happening to other campaigns

00:37:26 during the anti-nuclear campaign in the late 1960s onwards we occupied grovner square and trafalgar square whitehall and other sites in central london on various occasions

00:37:38 central london on various occasions these were mass demonstrations peaceful sit-downs

00:37:41 sit-downs with some campaigners linking arms and others using padlocks and chains to attach themselves to each other it was clear to me that the police frosted frustrated by the task of having to remove us lost control and used

00:37:52 remove us lost control and used unnecessary force against us they punched often surreptitiously dragged people violently out of the way stamps on people who were in the way of another person they sought to remove and this happened to me on several

00:38:08 and this happened to me on several occasions i was pretty violently removed from peaceful protests including being stampeded

00:38:10 stampeded similar things happened at weapons bases i recall being stamped on dragged across fields generally knocked about by the police who were removing me it was unnecessary violence because i was passive and peaceful

00:38:25 was passive and peaceful i do not recall the police ever taking action against those responsible for violence against me or against other campaigners i don't recall them taking action against stewards or members of the public or fellow police officers

00:38:37 public or fellow police officers i would like to know if undercover officers ever experienced such violence while posing as activists whether they witnessed violence against other genuine activists

00:38:49 other genuine activists whether there was any incentive to record or report this and whether they ever did so and whether they could have given or indeed ever did give

00:38:57 give evidence against those responsible for violence against activists i am sure that undercover officers could have done all of these things looking back on the basis of what we

00:39:10 looking back on the basis of what we know now it seems logical to conclude that there was a policy of allowing aggressive and violent behavior towards activists to go unchecked undercover officers would have known what we were experiencing and probably reported it to their

00:39:23 and probably reported it to their handlers yet it was still being allowed to happen

00:39:36 um just going forward again a bit to um paragraph 139 uh section 12 jim pickford and a report on the ones with branch of the annika's workers association i am asked about this group in the light of this

00:39:50 about this group in the light of this report of a meeting of that association on

00:39:50 on the 8th of january 1976. the only comment i can make is that it appears that in november 1976 he used

00:40:04 appears that in november 1976 he used his role in pavement and in circulation and in the circulation of this publication as a bridge to being involved in and perhaps gaining credibility within the awa that's the

00:40:16 within the awa that's the anarchist workers association i do not know if this my own understanding of what may have happened accords with what the inquiry knows from its own records and investigations

00:40:28 investigations section 13 personal information on me obtained by ucos i am asked about two special branch reports

00:40:33 reports dated 1976 and containing very personal information about the birth of one of my children

00:40:42 children and a health condition of mine the first thing to say is that the information in the first report about the birth of my son is accurate i did have a health problem of the sort described in the second report

00:40:58 described in the second report at the time reported however i cannot be confident that it was as serious as is reported and the name of the hospital treating me may be wrong too i am asked if this information was widely known the information about the birth of my son was of course known to close friends and family

00:41:09 and family but it was not reported formally publicly anywhere or of wider interest and similarly my health condition would have been known among my friends and family and there would have been some concern

00:41:20 concern but it was not more widely known than this or of wider interest i am asked my reaction on learning that information of this nature was reported on by undercover officers

00:41:33 on by undercover officers this has surprised me i find it sinister and invasive and it troubles me greatly to learn a bit even after all this time it is not a surprise to me that the police were monitoring some of the activities i was involved in

00:41:44 activities i was involved in but it is a surprise to me that they were taking a note of the birth of my son and of my health those things were unconnected with political activity and were of a particularly personal nature

00:41:58 although i am not asked this i am particularly surprised that these records have been kept for over 40 years this is also quite sinister it is not as if i was an international criminal

00:42:10 if i was an international criminal it is reminiscent of the behavior of authoritarian states it has no legitimate justification and it reinforces me in my view that i would like to have from the police through the inquiry

00:42:20 inquiry all information that all ucos and special branch have recorded and stored about me at any point

00:42:32 about me at any point i would also like to know which officers were monitoring me at any time in my life

00:42:34 life and what they did in order to gain this information and what use they put this information to

00:42:45 section 15 is events at a hotel in richmond

00:42:46 richmond um there are two photographs um that relate to this that i think you have there the ucp references ending 0.72 there's two

00:42:57 references ending 0.72 there's two photographs you could show them in turn

00:43:04 i think they're just photos two and three in the list

00:43:24 i i can re i can carry on reading if i know here we go

00:43:30 so that is um earnest with the camera

00:43:40 and the following one uh at least with the notebook

00:43:44 okay thank you very much

00:43:51 so paragraph 153 i'm asked to set out a factual account of my involvement of this demonstration including planning in advance my arrest and prosecution in the light of a number of

00:43:59 of reports it was a demonstration at a richmond hotel on the occasion of

00:44:10 at a richmond hotel on the occasion of the british line's rugby team departure to the airport for their tour of apartheid south africa at the time of the incident i understand that the hotel was called the star and garter

00:44:24 i do not recall this incident or what followed very well but i have had my memory refreshed by reading the documents provided by the inquiry the following broad points which come out of the report and documents do seem broadly accurate

00:44:36 seem broadly accurate i was a main organizer of the demonstration and we those who are going to be involved in it met on the day of the demonstration at my home before the demonstration to plan and prepare for the action

00:44:54 and prepare for the action i see that michael scott a uco attended the planning meeting for the demonstration having supposedly been told of it by peter haynes mother on the phone this sounds unusual and out of the ordinary she

00:45:08 and out of the ordinary she ad is likely to have told someone she did not

00:45:09 did not sorry she add is unlikely to have told someone she did not know about something so delicate on the phone i knew her and what she was like she would have been very careful about

00:45:20 would have been very careful about giving out this sort of information particularly given her experience of south africa and surveillance it is therefore possible

00:45:28 possible that michael scott may have got involved in the planning for the demonstration in another way other than the one described in the report

00:45:40 in attending the meeting before the demonstration the uco may have added his voice to the decision to take direct action before the action took place our plan was to blockade the uk rugby

00:45:58 our plan was to blockade the uk rugby teams coach at the star and garter hotel in the hope that the players would miss their flight to apartheid south africa for the forthcoming tour there these plans included ordering skips to the hotel

00:46:04 the hotel and cars being parked in the way of the coach and protesters getting in the way the vehicle all in order to block or delay the coach's departure from the hotel to the airport

00:46:19 airport i cannot now remember precisely what i did or where or the order of events the order of events but i do remember being arrested outside the hotel before that i may have parked my car a

00:46:33 before that i may have parked my car a maroon renault 4 with a roof rack in the car park at the entrance to nightingale lane

00:46:39 lane to cause a blockage there i may then sat down to block the coach possibly in the car park

00:46:39 car park as the coach left the car park i cannot remember what others did some may only have taken action in the car park

00:46:49 park and i have found and now produce six photographs which appear to date from the incident two of those photographs are the ones we've just seen like i can be seen in those photos

00:47:07 going forward to paragraph 167 i have now found a letter in my paperwork from pt to me dated 14th of june 1972 attached to it is what pt describes as my rather uninformative account of

00:47:21 my rather uninformative account of of the events at the hotel he signs the letter off by wishing me best of luck with the trial and i produce this letter and account

00:47:33 he describes the incident his role in it and he also describes what mike scott did

00:47:41 paragraph 171 a lot of this tallies with my own independent recollection of events

00:47:47 and going forward to 173 i was arrested and prosecuted it is almost certain confirmed by the intelligence reports that there was discussion between the activists who were defendants about our case preparation for a trial including

00:48:01 preparation for a trial including possible defenses to the criminal charges

00:48:03 charges it would not have been common for defendants to have shared with other activists who are not defendants information about say their discussions between themselves

00:48:14 between themselves about their case nor would it be common to share with those others the views of their lawyer or discussions held with the lawyers by their defendants there would only be some sharing of

00:48:26 there would only be some sharing of information with non-defendants if there was a particular reason for doing so for example to try to find witnesses or to get wider support for the case

00:48:38 to get wider support for the case one possible defense to the charges we faced was that relevant events took place in the car park and that this was not part of the highway the relevant road being nightingale alone

00:48:51 it seems from intelligent from the intelligence reports i've been referred to

00:48:53 to that michael scott or those who recorded information he provided could have given relevant evidence some helpful to the defense in the criminal proceedings and i note in particular these references in the

00:49:08 in particular these references in the intelligent reports which appear to show that michael scott and those receiving the reports knew that most of those arrested were not guilty scott could have given evidence about the location of the demonstration about

00:49:20 the location of the demonstration about whether it took place in the car park or in the road or the highway or beyond the car park

00:49:29 car park the police uco record records contain a report dated 16th to the 5th 1972 and the report writer does not suggest that this is in any way a false defense at least for the majority of the defendants

00:49:40 defendants the defense is consistent with the account of events at the hotel provided by

00:49:46 by hn298 earlier in his report

00:50:00 there is no attempt by special branch to inform anyone involved in our prosecution that any of us may have been innocent though i note that the metropolitan police report was sent to the solicitors department and to special branch

00:50:12 and to special branch evidence from michael scott supportive of the defendant's account and contradicting uniform police officers evidence would coming from a serving police officer have been more credible than had it come just from protesters

00:50:29 than had it come just from protesters i normally plead not guilty in protest related prosecutions i'm going forward to paragraph 189 but the approach i took to my defense would have been different had i known that michael scott was an undercover

00:50:43 that michael scott was an undercover officer it would have been different had i been aware of the contents of the intelligence reports now provided to me by the inquiry the account of pt would have been much more significant had i known that the mike scott he

00:50:57 had i known that the mike scott he referred to was an undercover police officer

00:51:04 officer i understand the offence of obstruction of the highway contrary to section 121 of the highways act required the prosecution to prove that there was an obstruction of the highway and that it was not reasonable the actions and evidence of the uco

00:51:17 the actions and evidence of the uco michael scott would have been relevant to both of these issues and whether i had defenses based on them

00:51:26 i am asked if i recall michael scott the undercover police officer apparently involved in the protest and court proceedings and i do not recall a michael scott being involved in the protest and court case

00:51:35 case i do not remember him at all on the information provided to me by the inquiry

00:51:37 inquiry i would be assisted if i were to be shown contemporaneous photos of him and some other description of him and his appearance and other interactions i may have had with him

00:51:52 may have had with him i know however that his name and details appear in my box file of contacts from that time

00:51:57 that time and i note that the first address for him on these box files is the one he gave to the court 16 weatherby gardens sw5

00:52:09 16 weatherby gardens sw5 i'm asked if i'm surprised to learn that one of the 14 people arrested that day was an undercover police officer and i am surprised that the police used its resources to place an undercover officer in a peaceful demonstration

00:52:22 officer in a peaceful demonstration part of a wider campaign to contribute to the isolation and collapse of the apartheid south african regime i am asked about my reaction to learning michael scott was an undercover police officer

00:52:33 officer i was very concerned to learn many decades later that an undercover officer was involved in the demonstration was arrested with me and stood in court with me and others

00:52:46 with me and others i am concerned that he did this in his false identity that he may have given the court a false name and that he may have given evidence in that false name furthermore the undercover officer was convicted and sentenced under that false name and i would like

00:52:59 under that false name and i would like to know whether that individual accepted that he was a criminal when living later under his true identity whether he whether he declared this conviction when asked about his previous criminal convictions

00:53:21 paragraph 200 i am concerned that this officer appears to have been involved in discussions with the group of activists and defendants about how to deal with the prosecution michael scott may also have been privy

00:53:33 michael scott may also have been privy either indirectly from what people told him or directly by attending meetings to private legal discussions between activists and defendants and their lawyer

00:53:38 lawyer and he may even have influenced or had the opportunity to influence those discussions these discussions may have been about fundamental questions the evidence the prosecutions and ours and what defenses we might have and whether to plead guilty or not guilty

00:53:53 plead guilty or not guilty and he may have reported directly or indirectly to the prosecution what was discussed supposedly confidentially between the activists and or their lawyer

00:54:04 and i know that there is a reference to the police being conscious of the quote potential of embarrassment to police unquote if michael squat michael scott were to have been involved in the protest and in the criminal prosecution in his cover name

00:54:18 prosecution in his cover name and then for it later to come out that he was the uco this seems to highlight a failure to have procedures and criteria for the oversight of ucos in this situation

00:54:32 oversight of ucos in this situation there is no mention in the note of more important concerns that the other defendants in the criminal proceeding should have a fair trial

00:54:37 trial that innocent demonstrators should not be convicted of offences that they have not committed the only concerns expressing to be for institutional damage to the police and the failure to view activists as

00:54:48 and the failure to view activists as individuals with their own legitimate rights and interests and the decision to place those second to the unfettered gathering of information on them

00:55:00 information on them may be a precursor to some of the more gross abuses of activists that i know happened in later periods of undercover policing of campaigners

00:55:18 going forward to paragraph 209 section 19.

00:55:24 19. i am asked if there is anything else of assistance to the work of the inquiry that i want to add we were aware that there must have been some plant an authority placed figure within stop and 70 tour i was pretty

00:55:35 within stop and 70 tour i was pretty sure at the time that i personally was of interest to the authorities this is because before the incidents and campaigns i am now asked about i had been involved in more direct action as part of other campaigns

00:55:51 part of other campaigns i was part i was one of the committee of 100 which campaigned against nuclear weapons and took action at military bases

00:55:53 bases and elsewhere this was in the 1960s and indeed before that i was involved in cnd2

00:56:01 cnd2 i took part in and was very involved in publicizing the first aldemarstone marches popular marches that were from 1958 onwards against nuclear weapons

00:56:12 nuclear weapons particularly those stored at awe all the master military base it seems to me that my political activities before 1968 and the intelligence held on me by the police during this period

00:56:30 police during this period are relevant to this inquiry for example i refer to these comments in page one of the reports surrounding my involvement with other protesters in the hotel protest in may 1972

00:56:40 the group of protesters is referred to as a quote group of anarchist orientated extremists under the control of ernest rodker quote unquote and it then describes me as

00:56:57 as follows quote this man has been a thorn in the flesh for several years now having had no fewer than 14 court appearances prior to 1963 for offenses involving public disorder he was considered to be a menace at the time of the protest demonstrations

00:57:10 time of the protest demonstrations taking place in this country concerning the spring box rugby tour in 1969 and the stop the 70s tour in 1970 unquote now i do not accept this characterization of me

00:57:21 characterization of me the other protesters or our actions for example from memory my arrests were for acts of nvda and civil disobedience and were against nuclear weapons and the apartheid south african regime

00:57:33 apartheid south african regime the intemperate language in this report suggests a lack of judgment on the part of the police and a lack of respect for the right of peaceful protest but the point i make here is that

00:57:46 but the point i make here is that special branch and the undercover police they work with had access to much more material and intelligence and intelligence a blight incorrect and dating back before 1968 then has been disclosed to me and this

00:58:00 then has been disclosed to me and this appears to have informed their decisions on how

00:58:04 on how i and the campaigns i was involved in should be monitored and policed from 1968

00:58:09 1968 and i wish to see all this material and intelligence

00:58:15 i challenge the legitimacy of the police spying on me at all and to such an extent and then retaining these records for such a long period of time

00:58:26 i will be very interested to learn what else the uk authorities may have recorded about me and my

00:58:39 activities 218 i am aware from what i have seen in the public domain that special branch collated more information on me and the campaigns i was active in beyond what has been disclosed by me by to me by the inquiry

00:58:58 of 222 i would like this information not only to understand the extent of state surveillance on me but also more practically in order for me to be in a position to provide further and fuller comments of assistance to the inquiry

00:59:11 assistance to the inquiry for example i have been made aware of the following police records not provided to me by the inquiry but obtained by my solicitors from materials in the public domain

00:59:22 in the public domain there is a metropolitan police special branch report dated

00:59:33 branch report dated 7th of april 1970. it is supposedly the quote first of a series of fortnightly reports and comment regarding the proposed actions of persons and organizations opposed to the cricket tour due to take place from the 2nd of june

00:59:42 june to 28th of august 1917 and its reference to me appears at paragraph 12 as follows some of the leading personalities in the stop the 70 tour and allied organizations

00:59:54 and allied organizations are dot dot dot ernest rodker stop the 70 tour

00:59:58 70 tour x committee of 100. now this the reference to committed 100 suggests that special branch in 1970 were aware of and had a record of my time in the committee of 100

01:00:10 committee of 100 and this tallies with what i knew when i was active in the committee when i and others were taken to bow street magistrates court found guilty in sentence

01:00:16 sentence i recall that the prosecution produced evidence that the police had observers and infiltrators at the committee of 100 meetings recording what was said and they were therefore able to prove

01:00:29 and they were therefore able to prove that we were at those meetings and the part played by the defendants in those discussions that was part of the prosecution evidence at the trial

01:00:47 paragraph 228 secondly there is a 10th of april 1970 metropolitan police special branch report which includes a paragraph for this reference to me in the context of the second conference of the stop 70 tour and a discussion about the use of mirrors to shine into players faces during sports matches

01:00:59 during sports matches ernest rodker the chairman of that meeting was overheard to remark to those present

01:01:09 present that the mirrors had sharp edges and in order to obviate the possibility of those

01:01:10 those found in possession of them cricket matches being charged with possession of offensive weapons the edges should be bound with adhesive tape now this is the sort of responsible

01:01:23 now this is the sort of responsible thing i would have done to reduce the risk

01:01:26 risk that by using mirrors that stop the 72 demonstrations we might inadvertently cause damage and run the risk of arrest for a more serious offence i do not understand why this report which names me and cast me in a good life

01:01:39 life has not been disclosed to me by the inquiry

01:01:48 and finally paragraph two through one this makes me question whether the police have provided all information to the inquiry and or whether the inquiry has disclosed to me all relevant materials i feel i should be entitled to see

01:01:59 be entitled to see all special brands and undercover officer material and intelligence on me

01:02:11 officer material and intelligence on me i would like this for its own sake so i can contribute fully to the inquiry to have some reassurance that the inquiry is canvassing fully the views of activists such as me who have been victims of undercover policing

01:02:17 policing and to have some level of reassurance that the inquiry's examination of the evidence

01:02:26 evidence and its conclusions can attract the confidence of the victims of the undercover policing i'll finish there thank you very much you very much for bringing your father's words to life

01:02:42 words to life may i um raise two things with you first of all your father can be reassured that the inquiry has provided has done its best to provide to him all of the um documents that it has

01:02:56 all of the um documents that it has in which he is mentioned or which refer to him

01:03:00 to him that does not include all of special branch reports such as there may be upon him because i am only investigating one small unit within special branch the special

01:03:13 within special branch the special demonstration squad and that may well be why he has had he has been able to obtain

01:03:17 obtain special branch documents but the reason is they don't come they weren't produced by the special demonstration squad the second thing is this is question to you which to which i suspect i know the answer

01:03:32 answer if i were to conclude that your father's conviction arising out of the star and data demonstration

01:03:40 was at least arguably a miscarriage of justice

01:03:43 justice and i therefore am required by my terms of reference to refer it to a panel which will consider what to do am i right to assume that you and your father would like that to occur

01:03:54 father would like that to occur promptly rather than to wait until the end of the inquiry i think that would be that would be his position i mean the reason i'm speaking is because

01:04:05 is because um he's i'm unwell he is elderly and in ill health and it would certainly ease his mind to know that things were proceeding as promptly as i'm subject to something unforeseen occurring

01:04:17 occurring you may reassure him that i will do my best to do that thank you sir john thank you

01:04:30 i assume i just um turn off my channel as it were now or it will be turned off for me yeah we're going for mr fernandez is going formula to close the proceedings and uh you will then as you rightly observe it turned off okay thank you

01:04:46 thank you everyone the hearings have now finished for the day we shall resume at 10 am tomorrow

01:05:23 you