Martyn Lowe, activist with London Greenpeace, testifies about HN10 Bob Lambert's infiltration of the group starting in 1984. Lowe describes how Lambert became integral to the group, took on administrative roles, and influenced its direction. The testimony reveals the personal betrayal when Lambert formed a deceptive relationship with a woman known as 'CTS', whom Lowe was friends with. Lowe describes hosting Lambert and CTS for dinner, unaware Lambert was an undercover officer deceiving his friend.
00:24:57 e e
00:25:43 good afternoon everybody and welcome to our what I think is our seventh day of uh uh evidence hearings um those who have mobile electronic devices uh may use them to transmit
00:25:56 devices uh may use them to transmit silently into the outside world what they hear this afternoon in the hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed so as to fit in with the live stream uh the devices may
00:26:09 with the live stream uh the devices may not be used for recording proceedings or taking
00:26:13 taking photographs thank you could the witness this war please thank you okaye me I do solemnly sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm
00:26:26 declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth Mr L please sit down please sit down thank you yes
00:26:43 sit down please sit down thank you yes thank you sir Mr low please can you give the inquiry your full name Martin Anthony low Mr low you've provided to the inquiry a witness statement that is dated the 14th of December
00:26:57 dated the 14th of December 2023 it's 41 pages long could we please have it up on screen screen it's ucpi 36683 it's a A1 in the hard copy speak
00:27:09 36683 it's a A1 in the hard copy speak up a bit of course I'll begin again yeah or near the microphone you've provided a witness statement to the inquiry 41 Pages dated
00:27:22 statement to the inquiry 41 Pages dated the 14th of December 2023 is that right that is correct could we have it on screen please it's ucpi 36683
00:27:33 can you see that on the screen in front of you yes could we please turn to page 41 the signature
00:27:49 page the signature is covered by a reduction but do you recall signing this document I do can you confirm that it is true to the best of your knowledge and belief
00:27:58 belief it is thank you that can come down Mr low I understand that your early activism if I can put it like that was centered around pacifism is that right
00:28:13 centered around pacifism is that right that is correct you were active in the peace pledge Union which I understand from your witness statement to be the British British section of the war resistors International that's correct
00:28:27 resistors International that's correct could you give a very brief overview of the war resistance International and explain where PPU the peace pledge Union fits in
00:28:37 fits in the right the war resistance International wri is the pacifist International which has sections in
00:28:48 International which has sections in various uh countries of the world the peace bled Union being the British section uh but its purpose is to promote pacifism
00:29:03 pacifism and um also to uh help and promote conscientious objection uh it's got a special status with the United Nations um as consultative organization on
00:29:18 consultative organization on conscientious objection but primarily it is to work for a pacifist world thank you in your witness
00:29:29 world thank you in your witness statement you discussed the notion of nonviolence a single non-hyphenated word could you help us with what you mean by
00:29:37 mean by nonviolence non well there is nonviolence is two words and that's without violence nonviolence is a philosophy of uh a pacifist
00:29:55 is a philosophy of uh a pacifist philosophy of um not hurting or causing to be hurt or killed or damaged any
00:30:08 individual how has that notion influenced your involvement in groups or campaigns it's Central to my uh way of thinking I uh wouldn't join a group that uh
00:30:19 uh hadn't
00:30:24 hadn't a well any group that would Advocate violence I would not wish to join
00:30:32 you've been involved in many groups I think over the years the questions I'm going to ask are going to focus on your involvement with one group in particular that's London Greenpeace the reason for
00:30:50 that's London Greenpeace the reason for the focus is that London Green Piece was infiltrated by undercover officers from the special demonstration Squad most specifically in your case by hn10 um who you knew I think as Bob
00:31:03 hn10 um who you knew I think as Bob Robinson and who I'll call Bob Lambert yes firstly before we get into the infiltration by the SDS I'd like to ask you about the origins of London Green Peace I understand that it was founded in the early
00:31:14 in the early 1970s by peace news and War resistors International activists is that right that is correct were you involved in the
00:31:30 that is correct were you involved in the group who formed London Green Peace no I was involved with peace news well I I helped with peace news uh but I was the the first time I became actively involved that did anything with the group was when the
00:31:44 anything with the group was when the group was about to have the London to Paris March and that was 1973 and is that one or two years after London Green Peace that was about two years after it
00:31:56 years after it started the circum es in which it came to be founded the people who founded it what does that tell us about London Greenpeace well the the idea
00:32:12 Greenpeace well the the idea was um still is I think to show the connection between um the ecology and um the military and to combine campaigning on on the
00:32:24 combine campaigning on on the to thank you I'm now going to ask you questions about your early involvement in London Green Peace roughly up until 1984 um at a general level whilst you
00:32:44 1984 um at a general level whilst you were um part of the group what was the structure or absence of structure of London
00:32:45 London Greenpeace it it was a
00:33:00 it it was a very loose uh loose group in in as much as different people took on different roles but but it didn't have a to my knowledge any uh structure of uh hierarchy you know um there was a bank account and decisions were made at
00:33:19 account and decisions were made at meetings and so when we're dealing with London green piece's involvement in something or the support of London Greenpeace for something else is it really possible to speak of London Green Peace as speaking with One Voice or were there many
00:33:30 there many voices
00:33:32 voices there I think it's better to say that between us those who were involved in the group we had a series of aims and um we would work in
00:33:46 aims and um we would work in consultation with each other with decision practical decision making being done at the meetings at the weekly
00:33:58 done at the meetings at the weekly meetings if we were to look at London greenpeace's stance on certain issues is it possible in respect of perhaps broad issues such as pacifism to say that London Greenpeace spoke with
00:34:14 say that London Greenpeace spoke with one voice in relation to that issue can you repeat that please of course um London Green Peace was a group comprised of many
00:34:26 of many people on some issues did all people agree initially the focus was apart from the general aims it was to stop the bomb test um
00:34:38 aims it was to stop the bomb test um taking place at moroa and everything was you know everything was focused that way it was only later on that we started looking at uh bomb test elsewhere
00:34:51 looking at uh bomb test elsewhere because the very early people in the group a lot of them were austral Asians so it it's local to
00:35:04 them I want to ask you about the activities of London Greenpeace and its members were there public meetings that
00:35:16 members were there public meetings that were held by London Green Peace I don't remember any public meetings I do remember March years and um
00:35:25 demonstrations for instance a dying outside the French Embassy
00:35:32 when the group would come together to meet who would be invited to those meetings I don't think we ever invited anything anyone people turned up who were interested in taking part in the
00:35:51 work the work you've mentioned would involve organizing demonstrations are there any other
00:36:03 demonstrations are there any other organized activities that London green pieace would be involved in I can't remember any at that stage apart from maybe uh Distributing the Green Piece broad shap which was published initially in peace
00:36:18 news I'd like to come now to the issue of um
00:36:22 of um disorder there's much made in this inquiry of the notion of public disorder does that notion have a meaning to
00:36:39 to you nobody was actually out aiming to do any public disorder the um the purpose of demonstrations the purpose of campaigning is to get one's ideas over and persuade people that we need
00:36:57 change I if you if you land up in a situation where there is disorder it's usually people from outside or um there's a bit of legislation you weren't aware of but he walk
00:37:09 of but he walk away and so do I understand your evidence to be that as far as you were concerned it was not the aim of those in London Green Peace to create
00:37:24 London Green Peace to create disorder precisely it was it was never on the
00:37:25 on the agenda however my it have occurred at demonstrations organized by London Green Peace
00:37:33 Peace members I can't remember any that caused
00:37:48 problems in fact when we had uh some of the demonstrations the uh we coordinated I can remember one in 74 where we went and talked to the police about the route we were going to use you know it's straight forward that
00:38:03 straight forward that way the period that we're talking about now in your mind are your answers applicable to the entirety of your involvement in London
00:38:15 Greenpeace I I think you would need to ask that question in a different way well we'll come to some specific specific examples later
00:38:31 later on um for now I think in your Witness statement you um discussed the Tores anti-nuclear allowance could we please have the witness statement back on the screen it's ucpi
00:38:43 it's ucpi 36683 and I'd like to turn to page 15 paragraph 56
00:38:55 please thank you um Mr L I'm I'm just going to read this out so that we're all talking about the same thing and then ask some questions arising from it you say I do however recall that
00:39:09 it you say I do however recall that during the course of 1979 there was a long debate between different groups about different kinds of direct action and whether destruction of property was a violent act this discussion mainly took place within the Tores Alliance of
00:39:23 took place within the Tores Alliance of which London Green Piece was a part and so involved in those discussions I was of the attitude that it was not a violent act to get rid of equipment that was being used for destructive purposes we had an agreement between all the groups not to do
00:39:43 between all the groups not to do anything like that yes firstly can you explain what the toris anti-nuclear alliance
00:39:45 alliance was um
00:39:47 was um it right at that stage they were building the first uh reactor in Britain for a couple of decades uh it it was a green field
00:40:03 decades uh it it was a green field site and the what was happening was that we organized
00:40:14 we organized demonstrations at the site as part of a overall campaign with other groups and organizations um to try and stop it happening the occupation of
00:40:26 occupation of Tes there had been lots and lots of discussions about how it should proceed nothing was ever said
00:40:46 proceed nothing was ever said about taking action or trying to destroy any equipment at the time and that was quite clearly understood by everybody who been involved up to that stage thank you and in your witness statement here um you say I was of the
00:40:59 statement here um you say I was of the attitude that it was not a violent act to get rid of equ that was being used for destructive purposes um does that mean that you
00:41:12 purposes um does that mean that you would or may have supported the damaging or destruction of property at toness there is some equipment that you do not want to try and Destroy because trying to destroy it
00:41:29 and Destroy because trying to destroy it would actually cause more harm than good for instance people talk about slashing tires don't do it because the pressure inside would hurt yourself you you know you you've got a lot of people who you know take this
00:41:40 lot of people who you know take this romantic idea almost of their romance that
00:41:42 that um destroying property is something that can be done it's not as simple as people
00:41:53 can be done it's not as simple as people think it is um there is a symbolism with the broken rifle the symbol of War res
00:42:04 the broken rifle the symbol of War res so War is international of you know the broken rifle breaking it but try and break uh break a rifle it's not as straightforward as people think it is regardless though of the utility or sense in damaging property do I
00:42:18 sense in damaging property do I understand it that you don't have a moral objection to the destruction of property in certain circumstances I have a moral objection your ideological objection to hurting people and our
00:42:35 objection to hurting people and our fellow creatures some property should never be produced in the first place um so destroying it I've got no problem with the question is how it's
00:42:54 problem with the question is how it's done and I've not actually been involved in that kind of thing um it's not as as simple as uh people think it is and if that entails breaking the law or committing a criminal offense is your attitude so be
00:43:06 attitude so be it can you repeat if in damaging the property or destroying it that amounts to the criminal offense of criminal
00:43:18 to the criminal offense of criminal damage what's your attitude to that um I don't think anyone who talks about this thingss in terms of criminal damage they talk
00:43:25 talk about what is done to uh immobilize the equipment or Pro or or item so that it's
00:43:39 or item so that it's unusable they just don't think oh that's criminal you know that's not criminal it's a question of how we can stop it being
00:43:49 being used but it was never something I I was personally involved in doing could I ask you about a different topic now and that the method of producing Publications at London
00:44:08 producing Publications at London Greenpeace and we'll go to an example that you yourself have provided it's ucpi
00:44:14 ucpi 3666 7 it's at A5 of the hard copy bundle
00:44:15 bundle sir it's a report that was submitted to the wri trienal conference and it'll be on the screen in just a
00:44:31 okay do you recognize the leaflet oh I know that one well great can you describe the process in terms of collaboration or otherwise by which this leafl was
00:44:43 which this leafl was produced which par or is it just the entire publication all right yeah how did it come to be
00:44:58 produced I think that I mean that does sum up what we were doing most most protest
00:45:06 protest um you turn up and it's simp it's symbolic it really is symbolic um because you're never going
00:45:19 symbolic um because you're never going to get inside the gates or um in in in you know inside the the other side of the
00:45:20 the fence what you're looking for is to persuade people that the place you're demonstrating outside should not
00:45:31 demonstrating outside should not exist and you know you you would hope
00:45:45 exist and you know you you would hope people working there would decide not to continue working there but um a lot of it is persuasion about ideas and changing the society we live in this leaflet do you know who wrote it oh um it was produced over the years
00:46:08 it oh um it was produced over the years so um there's different versions of it I know one version Albert did but um that was tweaking it but
00:46:20 was tweaking it but um it it' been in existence since the group had uh started but just added other examples later on and so in general for the production of public applications by London Greenpeace was it a collaborative
00:46:33 a collaborative process very much so um one of us would
00:46:45 process very much so um one of us would go away and produce a draft and then we would talk about how it needed U revising grammar spelling Etc but you know it was never one
00:46:56 Etc but you know it was never one person what about the contribution of competing IDE years into a
00:47:07 competing IDE years into a draft the how would it come to be that a central message in a publication was agreed
00:47:08 agreed upon
00:47:10 upon discussion I mean we' go through over a period of time uh some of us would get together we'd look at uh
00:47:24 us would get together we'd look at uh what was being written we would discuss what was being written but it would go to the group meeting to uh finalize what what was being done except sometimes there would be a
00:47:41 done except sometimes there would be a leaflet produced last moment but there was a general agreement in the first place of what should be in it I'm going to ask you now in brief about Bob Lambert will come back to deal with him in more detail later on um I
00:47:57 with him in more detail later on um I want to transport you to the summer of 1984 at London Greenpeace is that how you came to meet Bob Lambert first time yes at one of the group
00:48:12 group meetings I had never heard of him before just turned up in your early dealings with him what was your impression of
00:48:23 was your impression of him same impression that I have still very intelligent bloke and very amiable I think that's what fooled most of us thinking that he was okay but highly highly intelligent very
00:48:44 amiable from the summer of 1984 and for context Bob Lambert's deployment began around the 18th of June
00:48:57 around the 18th of June 1984 so if we take June 1984 to December 1984 what was the nature of your relationship with him very
00:49:03 very friendly um because we used to go to the pub afterwards and drink together and yeah it was just very friendly there but
00:49:15 yeah it was just very friendly there but at that period um that was the main main thing with him when you say you used to go to the pub afterwards is this after was there a we of me was there a regularity to the meetings was it every Thursday it was
00:49:28 meetings was it every Thursday it was every week that we you know we'd have the meeting then old groups of us would go to the pub together and chat over
00:49:39 go to the pub together and chat over various bits and pieces that was going on um but it was it was just you know the socializing bit as opposed to the uh the political bit in the
00:49:57 meeting in those early months what was Bob Lambert's influence within London Green Peace and this I've thought about a lot um in retrospect
00:50:14 he he did mention I can't remember things he mentioned but all the time I knew him he kept trying to persuade me to get involved with h sabar
00:50:27 involved with h sabar Association uh which I wasn't interested in and he
00:50:30 in and he also the first one of the first things
00:50:42 also the first one of the first things he did was to organize a um bring up an organizer picket demonstration at the AGM of
00:50:49 D we'll come to that specific example
00:50:55 example um how would he get involved in the group's activities
00:51:01 I think the same as everyone else turn up take part in the meeting and if we had an event or a demonstration just go to them I can't remember any specific ones he was at I wouldn't even
00:51:19 try we're all familiar with being in group
00:51:20 group settings and different people take on different roles within groups be they formal or informal
00:51:32 formal or informal yes what kind of role did Bob Lambert take on within London
00:51:40 Greenpeace I remember him bringing up issues I don't remember him uh taking on any formal uh tasks he may but I don't
00:52:00 remember were there for tasks to be taken on at London Green pece Oh dealing with
00:52:01 with Finance dealing with General inquiries but by the time Bob turned up we had form letters and leaflets on different subjects so it was just the
00:52:13 different subjects so it was just the matter of putting an information pack
00:52:23 together thinking back to the summer of 1984 can you remember how old Bob Lambert was in relation to others who attended Greenpeace meetings in terms of the scale I
00:52:35 meetings in terms of the scale I think well Bob's about the same age as me um so that was easy there were some younger people but the majority of the
00:52:51 younger people but the majority of the people I was working with were late 20s early 30s
00:52:59 it was only later that
00:53:08 changed I'm going to move now to ask you some questions about the direction of London green pieace over the years um I'm going to deal firstly with the period before Bob Lambert arrived at London Greenpeace and then secondly
00:53:21 London Greenpeace and then secondly we'll move on to deal with the period after he
00:53:23 after he arrived just to bookend this I think you
00:53:34 arrived just to bookend this I think you left London Greenpeace around October or the winter of 1985 I think it was September
00:53:37 September um
00:53:42 um it's at this stage yeah it was a PO I was pulling out um and one of the things I did was to uh write up an office
00:53:59 manual Mr low one view of the documents that have been produced to this inquiry is that the focus of London Greenpeace over time shifted towards
00:54:12 Greenpeace over time shifted towards being increasingly focused on animal rights
00:54:16 rights issues broadly do you agree with that view or not it changed it really changed the very beginning was antinuclear non
00:54:32 violence and what did it change to
00:54:38 to well there was one occasion when there was a derailment at Stratford of a nuclear waste flask which I dealt with uh downstairs in the telephone and did some press work and when I came up the
00:54:51 some press work and when I came up the people that were turn that were turned up which had been influenced by Bob they weren't interested all they wanted to know was about the animal issues um I
00:55:03 know was about the animal issues um I wasn't interested and that's the point at which I I really started think why am I
00:55:22 here on the topic of animal rights was there anything objectionable in principle to animal rights being an issue of concern at London Greenpeace
00:55:33 in principle no but it was not the group's focus it was not what the group had been set up to
00:55:45 do although I will also say that a very a a a certain proportion of the group were
00:55:55 were vegetarian um or have were um vegan in some cases so there's a real sympathy toward towards that kind of thing we've heard you discuss the
00:56:07 thing we've heard you discuss the anti-nuclear side of London Greenpeace and earlier in your evidence you mentioned ecology concerns do concerns for animal rights and concerns for E ecology overlap with one
00:56:17 one another yes because if you if you we Pro produced a poster nuclear power you know nuclear weapons kill animals too was
00:56:33 nuclear weapons kill animals too was just making the point that it wasn't just human beings that would that hurt um and we looked at um the kind of
00:56:45 hurt um and we looked at um the kind of damage that radiation did to animals but it was not a major um focus on what we were doing it was one of a number of um issues we were looking at
00:57:00 I want to ask you now about your connection with Ronnie Lee Ronnie Lee is credited by some with having established the animal Liberation
00:57:16 having established the animal Liberation Front or having coed the notion yeah and as having been its press officer in the late
00:57:21 late 1970s in 1987 who Reserve um he received a term of imprisonment of around 10 years for criminal activity related to animal
00:57:30 animal rights um firstly we'll come on to deal with the the thoria questions but firstly how did you know him Ronnie turned up and was part of the the
00:57:43 turned up and was part of the the group around I remember meeting him at you know he was at meetings in 1974 I'd met him before that in uh in terms of some peace movement activities
00:58:01 in the early 1980s so in the period leading up to 1984 what was his involvement with London
00:58:15 Greenpeace Ronnie just I remember turning up at meetings but he wasn't a major you know activist a lot of people just turned up at meetings and went along to events but they weren't doing organizing
00:58:27 they weren't doing organizing work so would it be fair to say that he did not directly influence the direction no of London Green Peace what about indirectly perhaps as a
00:58:43 Peace what about indirectly perhaps as a source of inspiration only in as much as he uh uh the one thing he did tell me
00:58:54 he uh uh the one thing he did tell me and which I've picked up on was um vegam which was a vegan organization supplying yeah um trees to grow um for food in developing countries that I you
00:59:08 food in developing countries that I you know and it was that kind of practical U project that I learned from him um he wasn't doing the uh head-on campaigning which uh the LF was doing at that
00:59:26 stage in fact when we leared about him being arrested we were somewhat uh taken
00:59:36 aback I'd like to ask you now about a passage of your witness statement which I'll have brought up on screen sorry I'm going to ask you about your witness statement it's going to come up on
00:59:48 statement it's going to come up on screen it's page um 14 paragraph 54 please the reference is 36683
00:59:59 it begins um on page 14 and it goes over onto page
01:00:08 onto page 15 again I'm going to read paragraph 54 and then ask you some questions about it
01:00:10 it it's it says this yeah there was no alignment between individuals who were active members of London Greenpeace and those who were active in the AL apart from the odd
01:00:21 from the odd individual when campaigners who were supportive of the AL turned up to London greenp meetings the complexion of London Greenpeace really changed I cannot put a face uh put a name or a face to people
01:00:38 face uh put a name or a face to people who took these views as those attending never expressly said they would have S supported the AL or animal rights militia the issue of animal rights direct action was never discussed or brought up at the
01:00:49 brought up at the meetings by the meetings are you referring to the same thing you've been referring to all along um London Green Piece has a meeting and anybody can attend it was never brought up at a
01:01:00 attend it was never brought up at a green pieace London meeting as an issue the first person who bought up anything to do with that was
01:01:11 Bob thank you that can come
01:01:24 down was it discussed as a topic of conversation at all support for the animal Liberation Front I cannot remember that happening except in as much as Ronnie had been part of
01:01:42 in as much as Ronnie had been part of the group and Ronnie was one of the bock 14 um and I at one stage had shared a a flat with one of the 14 a new Alber so of course it would have been met talked about but it wasn't a specific Green Peace
01:01:58 issue there's a document you've provided to the inquiry we've also been provided it by another witness Paul grait it's slightly easier to read in the format he's provided it so I'm going to ask for his version to go up onto the screen it's ucpi
01:02:14 it's ucpi 37233 sir it's at the back of your bundle a for Martin low
01:02:28 do you recognize this Leaf I remember this one well
01:02:35 yes can you recall who produced it I drafted
01:02:44 it and there were different versions so through the questions I'm going to ask you now we're going to see over the page but not just yet that this one is dated April
01:02:58 one is dated April 1980 and there's a later updated version just July 1984 just so you know the direction of
01:03:09 travel you produced this was there collaboration in the way it was produced like with all Greenpeace documents or was this
01:03:10 was this different at that stage um if I was working on a document I would work on it with one or two other
01:03:27 with one or two other people uh certainly in I I could name an individual who uh was involved in the group but not at that stage who every time we sent Letters Out would check the letters would check anything that there
01:03:44 letters would check anything that there was no um spelling mistakes grammar what whatever and we would talk about that that kind of thing as well but it was
01:03:56 that kind of thing as well but it was understood I think amongst us what uh line
01:03:58 line was before Distributing a leaflet such as this would you run it past others in
01:04:09 as this would you run it past others in the group to check they were comfortable with it being published in the name of Green Piece e even if it was uh uh hadn't gone to a group meeting it would have been uh gone through with a
01:04:25 would have been uh gone through with a number of um activists at at the at who were involved at the time and but at that point we were still a very small group so that was very easy to
01:04:39 group so that was very easy to do do you recall any specific objection to this publication no there was none or you can't recall whether there was any I think people were just happy with it do
01:04:53 it do it it was produced because of the problems of confusion that was been ca for us and those problems in confusion as we now go through the document do you mean in relation to
01:05:07 document do you mean in relation to being able to distinguish London green peace with green peace International Green Peace International Greenpeace Foundation the whole range that they went
01:05:17 went by um on page one of this leaflet you describe the difference between the two and on page two if we can go over
01:05:37 please at the top I'm going to ask for the up until the end of the word ecologist philosophy be highlighted
01:05:50 please to the end of the next paragraph please there thank you I'm going to read this now and ask you some questions same as before yes
01:06:02 you some questions same as before yes issues related to the question of animal Liberation such as vegetarianism population land use agriculture and this obviously follows on from the the previous page below is listed some of the groups and organizations that are working within
01:06:13 organizations that are working within this area compassion in World farming beauty without cruelty the vegetarian Society the vegan Society a number of people involved in this group are
01:06:29 people involved in this group are vegetarian and see vegetarian M as part of their political SL nonviolent SL ecologist
01:06:35 ecologist philosophy this document is signposting people to groups who are concerned with animal rights issues is that is that a fair
01:06:53 summary I think that well actually at that stage we never talked about animal rights weal you know um animal Liberation had a kind of
01:07:05 um animal Liberation had a kind of different meaning I think it was still developing as a philosophy for people
01:07:07 people um very difficult at this stage to say yes that was you know definiely what we
01:07:21 yes that was you know definiely what we were thinking but it was very much tied up with an extension of um vegetarian ideas and way of
01:07:32 ideas and way of life the the the thing I should say is that when I got involved in the peace movement a very high percentage of pacifist were vegetarian it just went hand in hand could we zoom out from this please and pick up from the next
01:07:47 please and pick up from the next sentence two magazines to the bottom of the paragraph after thank you that's perfect two magazines which cover the animal liberationist struggle are the
01:08:02 animal liberationist struggle are the beast and how details of how to obtain them how is a publication produced by the hunt sabar Association then the document says this the one group with which we can express political agreement is the animal
01:08:15 political agreement is the animal Liberation Front Ronnie Lee one of the people who has been jailed for his animal Liberation activities is an exg group activist Ronnie was first arrested in 1974 for his animal Liberation activities
01:08:30 activities which have included attempts to save seals from Slaughter as the AL is organized in such a way that is consistent with our own style of working and because we agree with much of their work we're we are including their leaflet as an
01:08:41 leaflet as an appendix the the question is this within mind that this had been written in April 1980 what does it tell us about the
01:08:53 1980 what does it tell us about the connection between London Greenpeace and the animal Liberation Front at this time the thing with the AL in the early days it it had a
01:09:10 days it it had a nonviolent ethos to it in many ways uh before they went into a Viv section laboratory of for instance they would check there was no people there there was no animals that was going to get damaged Etc it was purely the
01:09:27 damaged Etc it was purely the property uh you know making sure that it was safe from hurting anyone in fact at one one stage I was told um that
01:09:44 told um that Ronnie um with his uh ideas of um nonviolence was actually anti-abortion it would you they went along with him that stage I don't know what he's thinking is now but that is what I get at the
01:09:57 what I get at the time this document suggests there is something of an alignment between the aims of London Green Peace and the animal Liberation Front no is that an
01:10:19 animal Liberation Front no is that an accurate summary or not no it was just here's some background information on the issue rather than a political statement by the
01:10:27 group The Leaf for the AL is said to be appended to the document yes um Paul grait has provided the leaflet which is on page three of this document
01:10:40 please do you recognize this I recognize
01:10:51 that and I will also point out that the address on it uh was the address for peace news and when things
01:11:02 when things changed peace news said we're no longer going to allow you to have to use our office and what I like about this one is that it refers to reverence for
01:11:18 that it refers to reverence for life just pausing there when you say when things changed what are you referring to the influence of the animal rights militia
01:11:31 could we please zoom in on aims and
01:11:47 methods I'm going to read it again our long-term aim is simply to end totally the exploitation of animals by human beings in the short term we hope to save as many animals as possible from suffering under methods are methods are direct action this usually takes two
01:12:02 direct action this usually takes two forms which are often combined in one action firstly rescuing animals from establishments where they are being or will be subjected to suffering these animals are either released into the wild if it is thought that they will
01:12:16 wild if it is thought that they will stand a reasonable chance of survival or found good homes secondly destroying or damaging property used in the process of causing suffering to animals
01:12:34 this leaflet circulated by London Green Piece encourages others to take direct action doesn't it we were doing it as part of
01:12:48 it as part of uh all a range of other leaflets we were putting out it will should not be seen in
01:12:49 in isolation but um
01:13:04 yeah I I can't see U right the aims I've got no um I can't see that as being a problem um and when it says direct action there's so many different forms of direct action that would have to be much more
01:13:17 specific um the last part of it destroying or
01:13:28 um the last part of it destroying or damaging property used in the process of causing suffering refg to animals well it's the same if you found an animal trap in the countryside making sure that you know it it didn't spring and have hurt an animal that's you know making
01:13:43 hurt an animal that's you know making sure that you know if you could removing the the the mechanism so it couldn't be used again it's exactly the same kind of idea I
01:13:54 idea I think we will come to explore the impact operationally of Bob Lambert's deployment into London green peece but in this document circulated as of April 1980 does it indicate that the
01:14:12 1980 does it indicate that the association between London Greenpeace and the animal Liberation Front goes back before his
01:14:20 deployment if I recall rightly we wanted to have a range of leaflets uh looking at animal issues and that was one of them but we didn't
01:14:31 and that was one of them but we didn't have any working relationship with them at the
01:14:37 time and if we had I you know I wouldn't have been
01:14:47 interested thank you I foreshadowed um the issue we're going to talk about now a few times now we're going to talk about Bob Lambert's deployment into London Greenpeace and the impact operationally it had on the
01:15:06 group there is some context that I'd like to begin with and this begins in a document that you were directed to in the days before today I think last week it's an intelligence report written by
01:15:19 it's an intelligence report written by hn1 who is Mike chitty he was somebody deployed into the animal rights field primarily in South London before Bob Lambert's deployment the document is CPI 20790 so again it's on its own at the
01:15:32 20790 so again it's on its own at the back of section A I think of the hard copy
01:15:34 copy bundle it's ucpi
01:15:44 20790 could we focus in on paragraph three please and the first line of paragraph four Al together thank
01:15:56 paragraph four Al together thank you to give you context Mr low this is a an intelligence report written WR by Mike chitty on the 9th of April
01:16:07 Mike chitty on the 9th of April 1984 in it he is reviewing the animal rights movement in general in London I'm going to ask you whether you agree with the picture being painted of the animal rights
01:16:19 being painted of the animal rights movement in London in April 1984 but I'm going to read it first and then ask you to comment okay the last two years have seen a dramatic increase in activity by the growing number of animal rights activists throughout Britain I.E the
01:16:34 activists throughout Britain I.E the recent formation of numerous small local groups usually aligned with one or more of the major anti Vier section societies the regular media coverage and the lavish funding of organizations such as the international fund for Animal Welfare are indications of increased
01:16:49 Welfare are indications of increased public concern for the plight of animals used for research food clothing Sport and
01:16:52 and entertainment paragraph four political complexion and campaigning activities support for the movement is drawn from all levels of society and virtually every political persuasion is represented in this amorphous
01:17:04 represented in this amorphous group firstly do you feel able to comment on the accuracy of this at that stage I was
01:17:16 stage I was not aware of most of these groups I just picked it
01:17:17 picked it up odd things in in uh magazines of different sorts it was not an issue
01:17:32 different sorts it was not an issue that uh most of the group were at that stage were concerning themselves with we'd had
01:17:34 we'd had um work on nuclear power U you know nuclear weapons nuclear power then we had all the work we were doing about the Forkland war and trying to stop that
01:17:49 Forkland war and trying to stop that there was you know a lot of pacifist input this would have been a minor uh aside and and just to be clear this is not reviewing London Green Piece
01:18:02 this is not reviewing London Green Piece it's reporting to review the movement in general thinking back to the time are you able to comment on whether this is an accurate depiction of the I can canot say okay it just wasn't focus on
01:18:18 say okay it just wasn't focus on it could we turn to page two paragraph seven
01:18:23 seven please it's page two turning on to page three
01:18:34 this um purports to summarize
01:18:36 summarize the The View on direct action or Civil Disobedience of animal rights activists it says this support for activities
01:18:48 it says this support for activities which involve the commission of criminal offenses be they minor public order offenses or the more serious offenses against the Theft Act and criminal damage Act is in the main confined to the younger Anarchist members of the
01:19:03 the younger Anarchist members of the movement most of whom will be unemployed and prepared to spend some time in police
01:19:10 police cells you described earlier yourself and Bob Lambert being on the older side I think of London Greenpeace is it possible that it was
01:19:21 Greenpeace is it possible that it was the age of those becoming to be involved on the younger side that drove the interest in animal rights that and the fact that I think Bob was encouraging them to turn up
01:19:32 up through uh through going to other
01:19:40 groups thank you we can take that
01:19:50 down I'd like to ask you now about your understanding of Bob Lambert's involvement in the in issue related to the Richmond Park deal it's something
01:20:02 the Richmond Park deal it's something you deal with in your statement at page 35 paragraph 134 please it's ucpi
01:20:11 36683 page 35 paragraph
01:20:24 134 thank you you say this it was Bob who reported about an action to stop the Richmond Park deal this was not an action which anyone in the group had been had already been involved in at the time I wondered whether there was more to Bob's interest
01:20:37 whether there was more to Bob's interest in this campaign which we were not being told about I remembered he mentioned something about the gates of the park and now I think that he had already before bringing the campaign to Greenpeace Taken part in an action to
01:20:51 Greenpeace Taken part in an action to stop the cull going ahead by locking the gates of the park
01:21:03 do you mean by this that you understood he had been involved in this action before ever turning up to London Greenpeace IE prior to the summer of 1984 I remember very
01:21:16 1984 I remember very clearly sitting at the table in meeting room at um 6 engley Street Bob was there he bought up the subject of the the gates he reported
01:21:34 subject of the the gates he reported what had happened uh in terms of locking it what went through my mind was he knows more about this than he say that is the last I can recall of it
01:21:52 say that is the last I can recall of it up until the later stage when he sent me a letter asking if there had been any local press coverage about it and that was it but it just seemed to me that he was telling only part of what he
01:22:06 telling only part of what he knew it's my understanding that the C in the 1980s would take place roughly in the summer of each year do you recall which year you had this conversation with Bob Lambert that that was uh
01:22:23 with Bob Lambert that that was uh 84 that would be right at the start of your association with him the the summer rative I think it was during
01:22:28 during 84 I cannot actually be I remembered a conversation uh I can't be clear on an exact date it was but it was a summer
01:22:45 definitely is it possible or not that it was
01:22:45 was 1985 it might be but as I say I was just not um you know focusing that much it was just
01:23:01 you know focusing that much it was just something he mentioned I I would just as I I think it there must be more to this it only later on when I got that letter when he was asking that
01:23:16 when he was asking that um I uh realized that um there's something else
01:23:26 there you spoke about unigate earlier on um going to deal with that now the unigate demon demonstration
01:23:33 yes you in your witness statement say that Bob Lambert organized a
01:23:47 that Bob Lambert organized a demonstration against the unigate annual annual general meeting in September of 1984 um unigate a large and perhaps multinational company at the
01:24:01 multinational company at the time um please could be turn to ucpi 366 78 it's at a15 of the hard copy bundle it's an exhibit you produced to the inquiry Mr
01:24:22 L this is a leaflet advertising a demonstration that is going to take place on the 6th of September um outside the unigate annual general meeting is that right
01:24:38 general meeting is that right yes can you recall who wrote this leaflet that is Bob's handwriting there's no there's no doubt about that that is in his
01:24:46 in his handwriting I think that speaks for
01:24:54 itself I've seen other uh documents and letters I received the same P writing is
01:25:07 received the same P writing is there and it says meet his murder let the shareholders know what we think organized by London Greenpeace could we have a different document this time please ucpi
01:25:19 document this time please ucpi 20434 so it's an intelligence report at B3 of the hard copy bundle Mr low this is going to come up on the screen it's an intelligence
01:25:30 on the screen it's an intelligence report submitted by Bob Lambert on the 31st of August 1984 please could we focus on paragraphs 2 through to
01:25:46 four it states the date and time of the demonstration says at paragraph 3 it's based on the fact that unigate limited is concerned in the manufacturer of animal food stuff on a large scale paragraph four Martin low longtime
01:26:02 scale paragraph four Martin low longtime member of London Greenpeace is trying to arrange support and publicity for the demonstration he is confident that many members of the animal rights movement
01:26:13 members of the animal rights movement will join the picket along with several young squatters concerned in the stop the city
01:26:17 the city protests were you trying to arrange support and publicity
01:26:21 publicity no I was
01:26:24 no I was at the stage concerned with other issues it was you know as to say Bob was the one who was um dealing with the only
01:26:36 the one who was um dealing with the only other person who did publ it or did some stuff on it was Albert who phoned up the Press office at uniate Albert be Albert Beal who phoned the um press office at
01:26:51 Beal who phoned the um press office at uniate asking if he could get a press it because he wanted to find out more about it was a way of doing it and at the last um question he said has there been any
01:27:08 um question he said has there been any demonstrations before on the uh on your agms and they said no why I was just wondering he phoned up a little while later to ask about you know some the tick in uh
01:27:23 tick in uh Arrangement by which stage they' panicked
01:27:32 panicked you know um but that was the the sum of the publicity what went out which just went out by uh various contacts or um might have been mentioned in you know some of the political listings but it wasn't something I was you know
01:27:44 wasn't something I was you know concerned with doing the uh PR with was
01:27:56 concerned with doing the uh PR with was any one person driving the demonstration no I think it all came down to Bob just doing that and I think if he produced that leaflet he would have uh pass it on
01:28:17 elsewhere please could we have ucpi 37381 on the screen so again I think it's at the back of um your bundle a this is a leaflet that was handed out at the D demonstration a leaflet that
01:28:28 at the D demonstration a leaflet that was handed out at the demonstration will come on screen
01:28:39 shortly this is a document which was handed out at the demonstration is that Accord with your recollection I remember the
01:28:47 the leaflet and again this is Bob's handwriting
01:28:54 and I do not know how he researched
01:29:05 it just to square the point on the handwriting could we also have ucpi
01:29:12 36674 which is a letter from Bob Lambert to
01:29:23 you this is a letter we'll come back to deal with later on oh yeah but is this one of the documents that you're relying
01:29:34 one of the documents that you're relying on to say what Bob Lambert's handwriting was yes and I've had that confirmed by someone else who knew
01:29:49 him we can take that down now thank you both of the leaflets use the slogan meet is
01:29:51 is murder so this demonstration had something of an animal rights focus is that
01:29:59 is that correct presume so I it it was just something that the group always had a
01:30:11 something that the group always had a wide range of issues it was dealing with and this was just one of them
01:30:19 them um and a demonstration such as this against a large corporate entity
01:30:21 entity yeah you would it be multinational I can't remember whether it was National you know don't ask me in any event a protest against a company such as this
01:30:36 protest against a company such as this by London Greenpeace would it be single issue or
01:30:41 issue or multifaceted on that one I think it would be single
01:30:55 issue could we have ucpi 20189 on the screen scen please so it's at
01:31:01 at B4 oh I should also point out the the wording me is murder was something that was around at the time and there was the lp with the Smiths with that name as well so it
01:31:12 Smiths with that name as well so it wasn't something that was just plucked out the
01:31:19 air we have a an intelligence report here dated the 11th of September 1984 could we zoom in on paragraph two and three
01:31:26 three please it's an intelligence report which reports back to the SDS what happened at this uh
01:31:36 this uh demonstration um it says that there were nine protesters leafleting unigate limited shareholders that the broad grounds of
01:31:52 shareholders that the broad grounds of the complaint are set out in the leaflet which we've just looked at there was no disorder or un incident do you agree with that yes that that sounds about
01:32:04 that sounds about right could we please turn to page two now and focus on Martin low please and the text to the right of
01:32:17 it Mr L this is a list of those who attended the demonstration right your name appears there your association with London Greenpeace and it describes you as organizer of the picket is that accurate I turned up but
01:32:35 picket is that accurate I turned up but I didn't organize it who did no who did organize it I think it was
01:32:51 Bob well hold on a second um being careful not to mention any other names
01:33:04 um the the thing with the stop the city I was I was at meetings where it was discussed but I wasn't involved in it okay I'm going to move on and ask you
01:33:17 okay I'm going to move on and ask you about a different intelligence report now it's ucpi 20220 it's at B5 sir
01:33:31 please could we focus on paragraphs two and
01:33:43 three Mr L this is dated the 18th of September 1984 so shortly after the uniates
01:33:45 uniates demonstration and it says that London Green Piece members and Associates will
01:33:56 Green Piece members and Associates will demonstrate outside clar's hotel where a major for Fashion Show is to be held Martin low organizing the protest believes that there will be two shows held during the day he plans to ask demonstrators to assemble outside and
01:34:08 demonstrators to assemble outside and maintain a vigil until the end of the evening
01:34:12 evening show do you recall whether you organized this protest I didn't organize it I can't remember any meeting about it I wasn't on it I think ni clear um
01:34:24 clear um if you don't recall it does it follow that you can't tell us who did organize I don't know who was on it as I say I
01:34:37 I don't know who was on it as I say I was not involved in that particular uh U event and in
01:34:44 fact I'd have to go back on what day of the week that was but I uh during that period I was working on every Wednesday from 9:00 a.m. until 8:00 p.m. so it
01:34:56 from 9:00 a.m. until 8:00 p.m. so it would have been difficult for me to be
01:35:11 there please could return to ucpi 20230 it's at B6 sir
01:35:25 please could we focus in on paragraph three to begin
01:35:35 with Mr low this report is about London greenpeace's regular weekly meetings it's dated the 25th of September 1984 it says at this at the top as usual the meeting covered a wide range of
01:35:47 the meeting covered a wide range of subjects within the areas of ecology peace animal rights libertarian and Anarchist politics just pausing there is this important context to the range of issues discussed at London
01:36:03 issues discussed at London Greenpeace yeah I could add other issues as
01:36:04 as well um we did uh protest for instance on uh land
01:36:24 uh protest for instance on uh land rights on uranium mining on the building of hydro electric dams there was a very wide range of issues that we we campaigned and talked about and so if those of us reading the documents published by the inquiry see repeatedly animal rights reported on within London
01:36:42 rights reported on within London Greenpeace meetings would you encourage us to remember this context when we're reading I can't remember that specifically but at the early earlier days it was
01:36:53 days it was um it was not something I was concerned about
01:36:54 about out
01:37:01 so thank you could we turn to paragraph four
01:37:11 please this is about stop the city and Dave Morris I'm going to read from the top um until about halfway down and then I'll ask you some
01:37:23 ask you some questions in relation to stop the city it says Dave Morris asked everyone present to make a special effort to circulate leaflets for the demonstration on the 27th of September he added that he was confident that it would be the biggest and best stop the city so far
01:37:38 biggest and best stop the city so far announced there would be a defendants meeting for those arrested three new leaflets were circulated amongst the group an argument then ensued between Morris and Martin low Morris wanted the next London
01:37:51 low Morris wanted the next London Greenpeace meeting to be devoted in its entirety to the outstanding Affairs of those people involved in the legal and backup services to stop the city whilst Martin low wanted the meeting to proceed as normal the latter that's you was
01:38:04 as normal the latter that's you was concerned that the peace pledge Union the land landlords at six endly endsley Street where Greenpeace held their meetings could be embarrassed by a close association with a potentially violent
01:38:26 demonstration first question would you look out for the concerns of the peace pledge Union at London Green Peace meetings if something had gone wrong it would have
01:38:45 um perhaps it caused other problems in terms of image but I can't remember saying anything in those
01:38:54 terms did you see stop the city as being a potentially violent demonstration
01:39:03 no the original idea of stop the city was to move on from demonstrations in the countryside at military bases and take it where the
01:39:17 take it where the responsibility for the um the military started and that was the HS company
01:39:22 Etc thank you para five
01:39:30 please oh there was one other thing with um
01:39:37 um this the um that the expression the Day of
01:39:39 of Reckoning I'm responsible for that because I pointed out it was the day when they had a quarter day and they
01:39:53 when they had a quarter day and they said what's that and I went oh it's the day they reckon up their accounts you
01:39:55 you know that was
01:40:05 it um paragraph five Mr low this deals with an anti- fur demonstration on the 10th of October 1984 at
01:40:12 1984 at clares it says Martin low gave details of the
01:40:13 of the organizers however he stated he was uncertain of the exact nature of the event a little further down he said after it says after discussion the group
01:40:25 after it says after discussion the group decided to confine its activities on the day to a peaceful demonstration outside the hotel if individuals wish to disrupt the event that would be a matter for them in this respect Bachelor that's
01:40:39 them in this respect Bachelor that's Gary Bachelor said later that he would leas with privacy and privacy both prominent figures in this field of
01:40:54 prominent figures in this field of protest as to the feasibility of such further action he added that hotel security would be a major problem do you recall being involved in conversations about this demonstration I cannot recall that at all in fact it's only later on when this document was supplied to me that I
01:41:07 document was supplied to me that I leared that my name had been used that
01:41:20 leared that my name had been used that way you your evidence is that you can't recall this happening can you rule it out I can honestly say I was not involved in it
01:41:30 do you have any idea why you may have been named as being involved well it may be this whole thing that they
01:41:37 that they just put all the names of they added names later without verifying uh who who and actually said
01:42:07 verifying uh who who and actually said uh something remembering that it was the sergeant in the squad for the SD uh the uh uh SDs that wrote these things up I don't remember you know anything like that certainly was not there thank you I'm going to move now to ask you about
01:42:18 McDonald's we know from what goes through the 1980s and particularly into the 1990s that London green piece became interested in demonstrating against
01:42:30 interested in demonstrating against McDonald's yeah can you recall how that interest began very clearly um I
01:42:48 clearly um I remember after a meeting at um the one of the group meetings when we went to the pub I was in the pub with Gary and with um Bob and Bob bought up the fact that there hadn't been any demonstrations on fast food
01:43:02 food companies and that evening I went away and thought Oh yeah right and I thought about that and I produced a spoof leaflet on McDonald's which was McDonald's the sord ass
01:43:14 which was McDonald's the sord ass people that was T you know and I showed
01:43:25 people that was T you know and I showed it around and people particularly Bob uh picked that up and ran and with it for organized a de a demonstration I just thought it was um for
01:43:31 for me a side issue
01:43:36 um that was
01:43:46 it how if at all did it relate to the demonstrations against unigate I don't think that you know I I can't think of any relationship
01:44:07 there could we have ucpi 36677 sir it's at A4 of the hard copy bundle this is the spoof leaflet I think you were speaking
01:44:22 about we can see um within the burger seems to be a cow and further down the page the third sawdust it says on the bloody floors of McDonald's slaughter
01:44:37 houses is it fair to say that there is an animal rights angle to this
01:44:47 leaflet I think it's the combination of uh
01:44:51 uh issues which are in the sawdust people and that's the bid I wrote and for example we have um what seem to be ecological concerns in terms of the destruction of the rainforest MH
01:45:06 of the destruction of the rainforest MH we have in the document what seem to be ecological concerns yes for example destruction of the rainforest yes so this spoof leaflet is approaching the issue from
01:45:21 leaflet is approaching the issue from more than one angle multiple multiple issues
01:45:26 issues as I say I just did it as a spoof not expecting it would take
01:45:33 off you have just said that you contributed to writing the sawdust element I wrote McDonald's the sord dust people and they B they get sord dust sword dust swust McDonald's the sord
01:45:45 sword dust swust McDonald's the sord dust people that was it you didn't do anything that comes above that section nothing else but that being careful with names can you recall
01:46:04 being careful with names can you recall who did contribute to the leaflet above that section that you did I cannot recall on this
01:46:12 one not on this particular leaflet not from that
01:46:22 time when you produced the first draft which I think is what your evidence was was Bob Lambert part of the people you took that first draft heol with the
01:46:33 you took that first draft heol with the group at the time and was turning up at the weekly meetings but can you recall whether he was specifically involved in
01:46:46 whether he was specifically involved in discussions about this leaflet I cannot specifically recall I wouldn't like to go either way on
01:46:57 could we please turn to ucpi
01:47:00 ucpi 14460 it's document B9 in hard
01:47:15 copy Mr L this is an intelligence report dated the 23rd of January 1985 reporting on the demonstration against McDonald's on the 19th of January
01:47:26 January 1985 pausing here 19th of January 85 that's what the original spoof Le flot was trailing
01:47:40 yeah the protest itself were you involved in planning that event I wasn't there and the thing that that I remember very
01:47:54 very clearly is that it was snowing heavily which was difficult to get anywhere and um I was with somebody I was involved with at the time or getting involved with at the time no names
01:48:14 with at the time no names obviously uh so it that's why it stucks the date but I didn't see it as um the most important thing to do and I think Mr low if we zoom in on paragraph four please we can see that in fact you're reported not to have been
01:48:29 fact you're reported not to have been present however it describes you Dave Morris and Albert Beal as being much concerned in the preparations for this event do you agree with that assessment it
01:48:45 it wasn't and there's one other thing there when and I was told this afterwards I knew that they were going to meet on the steps of St Martin in the
01:49:04 to meet on the steps of St Martin in the field the police outside of South Africa house were the ones that noticed it and followed them down to the Strand so you know um that is how subsequent events took place
01:49:16 place um it is reported here Mr low that there were adverse comments made about you and the planning strategy of course you
01:49:27 the planning strategy of course you weren't there but do you know whether these comments were in fact made about you the first I knew about them was reading this
01:49:52 report I'm not going to turn to it Mr low but you've also provided to the inquiry
01:49:56 inquiry the same spoof leaflet which has the date the 13th of April
01:50:07 date the 13th of April 1985 which I think is a second iteration of the same leaflet trailing the same kind of event is that right
01:50:09 right with you've also provided to the inquiry a second copy of the leaflet oh yes which advertises an event on the 13th of April
01:50:24 13th of April 1985 I had that but I wasn't in I didn't go on that
01:50:30 event please could we turn to ucpi
01:50:38 366767
01:50:46 sir it's a letter you received Mr low from Bob Lambert yes we can see at the top that it's dated Tuesday the 27 2nd of April
01:51:00 1986 I'm going to read it all through okay and then ask you some questions at various
01:51:02 various points dear Martin listen why don't you
01:51:14 points dear Martin listen why don't you come along to Ensley Street one Thursday just as a guest I appreciate you don't want to get involved anymore your pre presence is missed if not your views what I mean is I'd like to buy you a drink in mables is that the pub that you would go to after the
01:51:29 meetings Mr low is Mabel's the pub that you would go is the pub yeah
01:51:37 uh um he says more about the pub and a provisional date to meet you at this time Mr low you had withdrawn from London Greenpeace what was your relationship
01:51:53 Greenpeace what was your relationship with Bob Lambert around April 19 1986 just
01:51:55 just correspondence I never saw him after
01:52:07 correspondence I never saw him after pulling out the group until I was part of the group that outed him um the decade over
01:52:19 ago and then we move to the next paragraph it says now what I need to get hold of is Big Mac the unauthorized story of
01:52:24 story of McDonald's by um I'm afraid I can't read that but somebody in Steve chain new American Library I thought I'd ask you first as you're a librarian but I guess I could order it at
01:52:37 I could order it at housman's do you recall him asking for this
01:52:41 this book I can only recall what's on this letter do you recall whether you obtained it for him or not no I did not get it for him
01:52:54 um anyone in live would say we'll put in a request for
01:53:02 it the next sentence Paul has now been committed to Crown Court for an offense under the indecent displays Control Act I.E giving out that leaflet outside Murray's meat market in
01:53:17 Murray's meat market in Brixton firstly um I think you want to correct something from your witness statement you believe I think that this is Paul grait but you're not sure I have
01:53:42 is Paul grait but you're not sure I have no all I have is what is written there I think I made a presumption it must have been but um I have now I I Now understand that Paul wasn't there so we draw
01:53:54 that do you recall the leaflet that he's speaking about when he says that leaflet I never saw it do you know what he's talking about
01:54:06 it do you know what he's talking about at all only from what's uh in the letter and from the reports that I read uh since then since the inquiry started what do you think the leaflet
01:54:18 is I think it was just a general one saying meat is um it goes back to the mees murder idea um but I never saw the
01:54:29 mees murder idea um but I never saw the leaflet at all so I don't know what the wording
01:54:39 was it it seems to imply that this is a leaflet of notoriety yes it's a leaflet that people know about including you is the
01:54:51 know about including you is the implication do you have a specific image in your mind of what leaflet you think it is
01:54:53 it is only from what I've read I don't know it would have been a general one on
01:55:07 know it would have been a general one on you know um about butchers as I would as I would understand these things to be but as I say I not seen a copy of it so the specifics of it I'm unable to comment
01:55:20 upon thank you
01:55:28 and we can take that document down now thank you sir I'm about to move to a slightly different topic I wonder if now is a convenient moment for a Break um how much longer do you anticipate
01:55:39 how much longer do you anticipate being um not shorter than an hour right in which case um the short hand writers need a break yes we'll break for 15 minutes thank
01:55:53 minutes thank you we'll break for 15 minutes now Mr L to let short hand writers have a break
01:56:21 go
02:14:20 e e
02:15:00 misso I'm going to now ask you about the connection or otherwise between London green piece and the AL after Bob Lambert infiltrated the group please could we have ucpi
02:15:11 ucpi 14474 on the
02:15:20 screen sorry S I don't have a a hard copy reference for this one it's the 30th of January 1985 and please could we have paragraph three blown up it relates Mr low to a meeting on the 24th of January
02:15:41 1985 it says that the main item on the agenda concerned the group's association with the
02:15:42 with the ALF Martin low a member of 14 years argued that the recent activities of the AL I.E
02:15:51 AL I.E the Mars Bars poison hoax shampoo and turkey poisoning threats of violence to Viv sectors Etc made it necessary for
02:16:06 Viv sectors Etc made it necessary for London Greenpeace essentially an anarco pacifist group to withdraw its support for the AL forth
02:16:19 for the AL forth with firstly do you recall saying these things I can't remember saying things the sack word but that would have been my attitude um I very very much re remember the marsbar hoax which I thought was
02:16:36 stupid the implication of the comments attributed to you are that London Greenpeace should
02:16:49 to you are that London Greenpeace should withdraw its support from the ALF and so the implication is that it did in fact support the ALF what do you say about the accuracy of
02:17:05 that should be seen to be associated with giving tacet support for but it there was nothing official uh saying we are part of you get but just saying well we we shouldn't um have um
02:17:18 um have um been uh seen to be part of um the whole process that they were doing it was the difference between the original Al doing nonviolent stuff and
02:17:37 original Al doing nonviolent stuff and the one which was getting um all all the um the violent actions the um and that was the animal rights uh
02:17:48 um and that was the animal rights uh militia but at that stage the ALF had actually produced a leaflet or a document saying it was okay to use violence that is as I understand
02:18:03 violence that is as I understand it were individual members of London Greenpeace supportive of the
02:18:07 AL politically yes I
02:18:13 think but as individuals
02:18:24 politically yes can you explain what you mean by
02:18:25 mean by that sympathetic
02:18:40 too that's support for or sympathy with do you know if anybody who would regularly turn up to London Greenpeace meetings was involved in Al Style if I
02:18:53 meetings was involved in Al Style if I can put it that way activity no I do not recall anyone being
02:19:04 uh I cannot give any names because I didn't know anyone who was doing
02:19:13 it I didn't know Ronnie Lee and I did know Vivian Smith because I was working at Putney and they had an office around the corner and because of bump into Ronnie i' met them but that was
02:19:29 Ronnie i' met them but that was it but I wasn't talking them at all about what the ALF were
02:19:45 doing at this time so this is January 1985 was your time at London Greenpeace coming towards an end definitely I was fed up with what yeah attitude was and
02:19:58 fed up with what yeah attitude was and after all the years I've been involved I was tired of it you try go going to a meeting once a week for you know a decade and a half you're going to get tired you spoke earlier about being
02:20:11 tired you spoke earlier about being dismayed if I can put it that way with the lack of a reaction to nuclear issues you have just mentioned that you became tired with the
02:20:31 became tired with the group was there anything going on in the group that you found objectionable that you found you could not associate yourself
02:20:32 yourself with it was the more the attit the general attitude I think than anything
02:20:45 specific the attitude to what the the the general attitude of people who are there this you must remember is a time
02:21:01 there this you must remember is a time when and punk was uh very much in Vogue and I think PE some of the people turning up uh were influenced by it in what way as a styled
02:21:18 statement were you concerned about the activities of anybody in the group not specifically uh there was this guy
02:21:39 Axel we we won't mention names okay but you you can carry on for now there one individual right um but for other reasons
02:21:40 reasons um
02:21:42 um but no I
02:21:46 but no I mean you know there had been somebody who turn up at the um end of one of the
02:21:58 who turn up at the um end of one of the slop slop the cities whose attitude was pretty antisocial and that was
02:22:02 it but he
02:22:11 disappeared and I can't remember his [Applause]
02:22:21 name please could we have paragraph four of the report up on
02:22:31 screen we're still dealing with the same intelligence report the meeting was the 24th of January
02:22:38 January 1985 and it says this Lowe's comments were met with derision from an audience which included many Al supporters
02:22:53 when you made comments of this kind to try and dissociate yourself and the group from the actions you've spoken about do you recall being met with
02:23:07 derision I I can't remember that but I remember that people a few people were being der they had a derogatory attitude for what I was trying to
02:23:25 do if we pick this statement up slightly further down we have Dave Morris at the far right and it says Dave Morris a supporter of any action which can be described as anti-establishment stated that Alf should receive the full
02:23:38 stated that Alf should receive the full backing of London Green Piece as it had always
02:23:39 always enjoyed do you recall whether or not Dave Morris made that statement or words to that effect I cannot recall it
02:23:57 if anything Dave and myself would argue politics but it was as part of a process of working out uh where we were going well on that point then if we can move to ucpi
02:24:15 28493 it's an intelligence report of the 21st of January 1986 sir it's at B21
02:24:26 this is a report specifically about you Mr low and about you leaving London Green Piece could we have paragraphs two and three
02:24:35 and three enlarged thank you it says this Mr low after an
02:24:47 you it says this Mr low after an association lasting 13 years Martin low left London Greenpeace in December 1985 his departure followed many arguments with dve Morris and other group members who were prepared to support violent direct action loow is a confirmed pacifist who cannot even
02:25:05 confirmed pacifist who cannot even accept the morality of Smashing butcher shop Windows an activity that became increasingly popular amongst London Greenpeace activists during 1985 there's some comments to unpack there the first
02:25:17 there the first is the arguments between yourself and Martin and and Dave Morris were they theoretical or practical what were the
02:25:26 were the issues theoretical and practical uh I'll say that Dave and myself have always argued politics but it's
02:25:36 it's understood you can argue politics but you can still like the P the person and
02:25:50 you can still like the P the person and yeah I think Dave is one of these people you really like but you're always going to have an argument with on politics it's just the way it is secondly then this suggestion that Dave Morris and other group members were prepared to support violent direct
02:26:03 prepared to support violent direct action what do you have to say about the accuracy of that
02:26:12 statement the thing is that there's the rhetoric and there's a reality
02:26:20 reality um and as to Smashing butcher windows the glass that is actually you know knocked out is a danger to other people are going to cut themselves on it's not a wise thing to
02:26:42 do the notion that Dave Morris himself was prepared to support violent direct action do you agree with that or disagree Dave is always been more in favor of doing Direct direct action uh
02:26:53 favor of doing Direct direct action uh then and and it depends what you mean by direct action as well um because there's different types of direct action I mean we talk about nonviolent direct action
02:27:15 we talk about nonviolent direct action as one thing uh but it's direct action so Dave has always been uh direct you know direct action orientated whereas I've always uh I still take the view you've got to work in every level of
02:27:34 society on the subject of violence and unpacking that notion I'm going to ask for a paragraph of Bob Lambert's statement to be put up on screen so that you have an opportunity to comment on what he says about you right it's page 52 please it's paragraph 67.1
02:27:58 I'm sorry the reference is
02:28:12 3581 and if we could go directly to page 52 and paragraph 67.1 please thank
02:28:24 you Mr low I'm I'm going to read it out and then ask you for you to comment on what's implied from this statement he says he's considered a particular report he accepts that it's his he says
02:28:40 report he accepts that it's his he says I was reporting on Martin low because of his involvement in London Greenpeace this report confirms that low had a special Branch file going back to 1978 I would have report been reporting
02:28:54 1978 I would have report been reporting on him because of this interest the fact that he had left London Green Piece was Intelligence worthy of reporting maybe in the future if low ceased to be involved in supporting violence future reporting might not be necessary but the SDS would not simply stop having an interest and decide that no further
02:29:08 interest and decide that no further reporting was necessary or Justified just because a longstanding Target linked to London Greenpeace claims they were giving up their association with violence this Mr low suggests that at
02:29:21 violence this Mr low suggests that at one time you did support violence what did you say to that
02:29:27 suggestion the reason for setting up the Federation of a narco pacifist was because of concern about class
02:29:37 class war it was nothing to do with the internal politics of Green Peace
02:29:54 London and that's what I will emphasize what about the suggestion that you at one time supported violence no i' you know I've been a pacifist uh All My
02:30:06 pacifist uh All My Life um my first demonstration was 1968 as a pacifist I worked in pacifist circles ever
02:30:15 since just picking up on something you said about class war and with no names being mentioned please what was your concern about class war at the time that they
02:30:33 time that they were wanting just to do politics of of Confrontation and had no quarms about using
02:30:39 violence and it was giving anarchism a bad name
02:30:58 was that something confined to class war or was it something that other groups you were involved with were tending towards it was specifically about last [Music]
02:31:05 [Music] war it follows then that you specifically did not have that concern
02:31:21 specifically did not have that concern with London Greenpeace I didn't because that was the that was the way main uh problem that those of us who involved in setting up the Federation um we we we were concerned
02:31:40 about um please could we turn to ucpi 36674 it's A1 sir it's a letter from Bob Lambert to you yeah in your witness statement you give
02:31:56 yeah in your witness statement you give the date the 7th of January 1986 to this letter how do you date this letter how do I how do you put a date on this letter it would be a how how is it that you have come to be able to give us a
02:32:08 able to give us a date I can't remember I've I've got these letters okay um the fact it's got
02:32:19 um the fact it's got um you know the the January it must be 86
02:32:30 thank you the letter reads as follows and we start on this page we'll have to turn over the page because it follows one then two down and we'll come back to this one he says Dear Martin Highgate is very pleasant under two inches of snow cars of ground to a stand still on the
02:32:44 cars of ground to a stand still on the hill they can't cope I trust you're well thanks very much for your letter and interesting cuttings apparently I was lucky and if we could turn over the page thank you to get it you addressed it to n16 where it went then it had an
02:32:57 n16 where it went then it had an interesting Journey around harringay Tottenham muswell Hill and Finchley
02:33:09 Tottenham muswell Hill and Finchley before arriving in n6 in rather a sorry State he says news Dave M I think your understanding is that that's Dave Morris that Dave Dave M's Dave Mor is in Amsterdam following a fine of100 for shoplifting at Tottenham magistrates
02:33:20 magistrates all I've got is that to go on uh I was not told anything else at the
02:33:28 the time if we could go back to page one by that stage I was primarily involved with war resists thank
02:33:40 war resists thank you it says that Dave Morris was caught nicking booze and he a teeth totaler a moral somewhere he says Bob me backwards
02:33:51 moral somewhere he says Bob me backwards and forwards to Cowell green magistrates Court Distributing insulting leaflets outside a butcher
02:34:00 shop what was the nature of your relationship with Bob Lambert at this point Justin correspondence that was it people move on and then finally on this document page three
02:34:18 please he says P.S after Love Bob shock horror an individual who we won't name came to a London Greenpeace meeting on Al and didn't say a word all
02:34:32 night does this give us any insight into the relationship between London Greenpeace and the AL in January 1986 it's after my
02:34:45 1986 it's after my time therefore I cannot comment upon it or rather I'm unable to comment upon here
02:35:09 two more questions on the end of your time at London Green Peace the first is in relation to Dave Morris according to the reporting he seems to have been a dominant figure in London Greenpeace at the time that you left yes is that accurate I think
02:35:24 left yes is that accurate I think so what was the nature of his influence in the group at the time you left I think he's just got a strong
02:35:35 left I think he's just got a strong personality and uh expresses his views very you know very much so four
02:35:43 um another personality in the group at the time you left Bob Lambert yes what was the nature of his influence in the group at the time you
02:35:57 group at the time you left I'm looking at it in terms of what I felt at the time and what I've seen later at the time I don't I don't remember him pushing
02:36:09 don't I don't remember him pushing things but in retrospect I think he was influencing people um but more by being the the nice guy the very friendly bloke who uh was just talking to them
02:36:27 separately I just regret that I didn't um pick up on this at the
02:36:40 time I'm going to move to a completely different topic now it's the final major topic that I'm going to ask you questions
02:36:46 questions about it's in relation to Bob Lambert's first sexual relationship whilst Undercover with a woman who we're calling CTS yes you know her real name don't you yeah but we're not going to use it throughout the evidence
02:37:03 today how did you know CTS how did I how did you know
02:37:13 CTS it was obvious they were in sorry how did you know CTS oh because of the the um because of turning up at the group CTs would turn up at London Green
02:37:26 group CTs would turn up at London Green Peace meetings yes during uh this summer of um well she turned up about six weeks after
02:37:43 Bob and that's when they start you know got
02:37:46 know got involved it wasn't long after
02:37:56 what was your impression of CTS as a person very uh very pleasant and um concerned about you know changing the world for the
02:38:13 better what was her personality like
02:38:27 to say very pleasant and um you know a lovely individual really nice individual there was [Music]
02:38:32 [Music] no there was no really nasty things you know about
02:38:40 her do you remember how old she was roughly when she joined London Greenpeace about 19
02:38:57 what do you remember of her early interactions with Bob Lambert I remember I think she may have been on the uniate
02:39:12 uniate demonstration uh and I can't swear to that but um it was obvious that they were a couple or become a couple maybe to assist your recollection in the intelligence report that Bob
02:39:25 in the intelligence report that Bob Lambert submitted about unigate he named her as an attendee
02:39:35 yes Bob Lambert's deployment began he says on the 18th of June
02:39:44 1984 when do you think his relationship with CTS
02:39:57 began or September I mean August prob yeah July yeah end of July August I think but at this stage without a
02:40:14 diary when did you form the impression that they were more than just friends fairly soon after I think
02:40:23 it was the and you then they came over for
02:40:25 for dinner and they'd look like and what went through my mind they looked like the devoted couple you know he was
02:40:37 the devoted couple you know he was playing you know and the devot you know the devote couple
02:40:46 there at the time that you invited them over for dinner did you understand them to be in a romantic relationship yes
02:40:56 I'm going to ask for some photographs to be handed to you now but just some instructions on what's going to happen with those photographs okay these are photographs that you have provided to the inquiry of Bob Lambert and CTS yes
02:41:09 the inquiry of Bob Lambert and CTS yes in the version that's available to the public there is a box which says privacy yes over the face of CTS I'm going to now for a version
02:41:23 CTS I'm going to now for a version without any privacy box to be handed to yourself and to the chairman and please don't hold that photograph up at any point just keep it on your desk for you to look at yourself and I'll ask you some questions about it okay thank
02:41:41 you you and is that both of the photographs could we have both thank you
02:42:06 the first one I want to ask you about um and for anybody who needs the document reference it's 36671 at A9 of the
02:42:18 bundle do you recall when they came over for dinner
02:42:23 September
02:42:27 OCT no I can't give an exact
02:42:37 date when they came over for dinner did the nature of their interactions with each other give you an impression of how long they had been together no
02:43:02 did they appear to you to be in the very first days of a romantic relationship or more
02:43:11 settled my impression was that they were devoted to each
02:43:13 each other rather than either of those
02:43:29 looking at that first photograph that you have um but that nobody else is looking at without revealing any features that might identify CTS and stepping back can you give us an idea of what impression that photograph gives you of the nature of their
02:43:47 relationship close that is the
02:43:56 very close to each other and as I say he was and
02:44:02 devoted could you take up the put that one down on the desk please could you put that photograph down on the desk and pick up the second one do you have the second photograph yes could you have a look at
02:44:16 photograph yes could you have a look at that please the second photograph behind the first
02:44:29 same yeah are you looking at the same photograph or a different one the to make it easier if it's the copy I've got it shows negative with the 20 all right
02:44:42 shows negative with the 20 all right thank you right that makes it easier thank
02:44:43 thank you same question yeah what does this Photograph tell us about the nature of of their
02:45:02 relationship it's a closeness just the real closeness to each other and and she was devoted to him I think thank you I'm going to ask if those photographs could be taken back up thank you very much thank
02:45:14 thank you very much thank you give me for interrupting were the photographs taken on the same occasion on the same occasion yes same same place I was living
02:45:35 in Mr low we've looked at the photographs a snapshot of their time together can you remember anything else about how often they would see each
02:45:57 about how often they would see each other and in what circumstances I do not know um I'd see them together at the meeting
02:46:04 meeting um but aside from that just what I was told and what I was told
02:46:15 afterwards did there come a time when CTS left London to go to university yes
02:46:27 when that would be about October of uh 84 and she came back again later at the Christmas uh during Christmas period And I met her on her own
02:46:42 I met her on her own then when you met her then what did you learn of her relationship with hn10 she I think was planning to meet him him but there was nothing really said about that at
02:46:59 said about that at all when I did talk to her much later on is after uh he had been exposed and um she came over to talk to to um Rob
02:47:16 to um Rob Evans can I just pause you there and stay around Christmas yes 1984 did you understand CTS and Bob Lambert to still be in a relationship with each other I had the
02:47:28 relationship with each other I had the impression from the letters that he sent me later on that he was still um you know he he he was still
02:47:40 still um you know he he he was still interested in her uh because one of the letters refers to her hair color please could we have ucpi 366 75
02:47:54 color please could we have ucpi 366 75 sir it's at a12 of the hard copy bundle I think this is the letter you were referring to Mr L yes it's a letter dated the 11th of September 1986 MH and it's from Bob Lambert to you
02:48:06 it's from Bob Lambert to you yeah the um two sections that are of interest to to us are on the far right hand side we'll begin with a slight tangent um the top right hand side
02:48:19 tangent um the top right hand side it says about cuttings from the previous page in your local paper this year about the
02:48:26 the deal
02:48:28 deal cheers was this a request from Bob Lambert to you for any cuttings in relation to the Richmond di it was anything but I I was taking the local newspaper at the time and I never saw
02:48:43 newspaper at the time and I never saw anything and then back to what we were discussing previously he says take care let me know instantly if ever you hear
02:48:56 let me know instantly if ever you hear or see a certain woman with privacy hair under singular smile now without re revealing what's behind the privacy box who did you understand this to be I understood it to be
02:49:14 her back to December 1984 when you met CTS presumably on her return from University for the Christmas
02:49:26 holidays did you understand her and Bob lbert to still be together or had they broken up I the way I understood it at the time was they were still a
02:49:47 couple I'm not going to turn it up unless we need it in your witness statement you say that you understood CTS to have been ditched by Bob Lambert by this point you say
02:50:01 by Bob Lambert by this point you say that that was your understanding from a conversation with her at Christmas
02:50:14 conversation with her at Christmas 1984 I refreshing your memory from your statement is that accurate or did you understand them to still be together
02:50:27 understand them to still be together I I got that really from much later on um when I um established contact with her again and that was what was it
02:50:41 2011 do you
02:50:49 recall whether over the course of 1985 5 the year that followed in your relationship with Bob Lambert whether the two of them were still together or not
02:50:58 not no nothing mentioned at
02:51:15 all please could we have paragraph 116 of Mr Lowe's witness statement on the screen it's ucpi 366 6
02:51:24 83 just going to show you the witness statement that you sent into the inquiry so that you can refresh your memory with the full context and then I'm going to ask you your recollection now so we'll just wait until it comes up on the screen
02:52:03 paragraph 116
02:52:13 Please Mr if you just take a moment and read that to yourself and let me know when you finished
02:52:35 so the the question is when did you find out that the two of them were no longer a
02:52:40 a couple you know I cannot be exact on that in any way at all
02:52:59 I did have correspondence with her but I can't recall what she put in those letters about her and
02:53:13 Bob and please could we go to Bob Lambert's witness statement it's 35081
02:53:15 35081 ucpi and page 10 77 paragraph
02:53:42 297 okay thank you
02:54:09 177
02:54:18 sh
02:54:53 thank
02:55:07 you Mr L this is a paragraph of Bob Lambert's witness statement in which he speaks about his sexual relationship with
02:55:14 with CTS um he named her as CTS he says how he came to realize what her name was he says at the bottom we formed a friendship after a London Greenpeace
02:55:25 friendship after a London Greenpeace meeting at the regular post meeting turn over the
02:55:26 over the page and just paragraph 297
02:55:35 please thank you uh we formed a friendship after a London Greenpeace meeting gathering at a nearby pub the Friendship started sometime in July 84 and lasted to September
02:55:49 September 84 pausing there is that roughly the same as your recollection my
02:55:54 rection is more like
02:56:04 October and that would logically fit into the academic
02:56:09 year he goes on to say this this involved attending several Greenpeace meetings and events and regular social Gatherings of London Greenpeace members at a pub after the meetings in addition
02:56:20 at a pub after the meetings in addition it involved attending a social gathering at your home on one occasion I gave her a lift home and was invited in and this was the start of a short sexual relationship I think this lasted for approximately a
02:56:31 approximately a month he gives details um of their relationship saying CTS stayed overnight at my cover address on two or three occasions and the sexual relationship
02:56:45 occasions and the sexual relationship continued there the relationship came to an end when CTS left London at some point late September CTS left London to live in privacy where she was
02:56:56 live in privacy where she was undertaking an academic course she made one visit to London probably early October this was the last time I saw her I cannot remember whether we had sexual relations during this visit we can take that down now thank
02:57:13 you Bob Lambert says the relationship ended when she went to University in your witness statement you say that you came to understand that he had and I quote ditched
02:57:28 her what is your understanding that he ditched her based
02:57:38 on trying to word this so that I'm not going to
02:57:40 going to uh trip myself up
02:57:44 up I I had the impression that if he ditched her it would have been the end of the year when she came
02:58:05 been the end of the year when she came over because I understood that she was going to attempt to go and see him uh over that Christmas period so you know I I assumed maybe wrongly that the relationship was continuing at that
02:58:21 point do you know or not who initiated the end of the relationship
02:58:33 no what are your Reflections now on the relationship between Bob Lambert and CTS as I said they just looked a devoted couple and that is the strongest impression I had and they I had the
02:58:48 impression I had and they I had the impression that as a couple they were going to last a long
02:58:59 time knowing now that Bob Robinson was in fact undercover officer Bob Lambert yeah what are your Reflections on the relationship on the relationship between the two of
02:59:12 them I was attempted to use some The Backs
02:59:19 Backs slang uh which is drb an absolute Dr sad he really badly treated
02:59:35 her you have said that CTS was approximately aged 19 yes in the summer of
02:59:50 1984 what was your impression at the time of the age difference between Bob Lambert and CTS she seemed mature for her
02:59:51 her age
02:59:56 age um you know well well Su as the expression goes
03:00:00 goes um and it didn't seem when they were talking to make much difference but I cannot
03:00:17 cannot say what other conversations were going on um you know to to verify anything else
03:00:31 how do you feel about the fact that you hosted your friend CTS and undercover off officer Bob Lambert at your house for
03:00:43 dinner in retrospect the humor in me when and he took my beer the uh the reality though is
03:00:55 is that I was just really sad what you know for what he done to her yeah really upset that anyone could behave that
03:01:15 way what has been the impact of the relationship on your relationship with CTS
03:01:25 CTS she didn't want to know about anyone in the group once that had finished and therefore I stopped getting correspondence but I was busy anyway didn't notice when I tried to contact her again after he'd been exposed I didn't know how to do it I
03:01:37 exposed I didn't know how to do it I tried via her parents I tried via her University got nowhere it was only after the uh Tombstone of the real Bob
03:01:53 the uh Tombstone of the real Bob Robinson um appeared in the guardian that she
03:01:54 that she contacted Rob Evans and Via
03:02:06 contacted Rob Evans and Via um VI via Network she contacted me and I was able to see her again and that was nice you
03:02:18 know the fact that she didn't want anything to do with um London green piece or those associated with Bob Lambert after the relationship had ended does that suggest that the ending of the
03:02:31 does that suggest that the ending of the relationship had a significant impact on her she got badly hurt that's the only way I can describe it that's both from what she's told me and the you know what
03:02:43 what she's told me and the you know what I've worked out for myself she got badly hurt
03:02:50 finally Mr low how do you feel about London Greenpeace having been reported on by SDS undercover officers part of me doesn't understand
03:03:07 officers part of me doesn't understand why they would want to do it given their politics
03:03:09 politics but
03:03:19 but it's I'm not angry I'm just disappointed that um we've had to go through this whole
03:03:20 whole process because of um one
03:03:34 individual Miss Lo thank you those are the questions I have there'll be a break now okay and um we'll come back in finished
03:03:35 finished proceedings thank you another another 15minute break if there are some more questions I don't think there'll be too many uh and your um exercise will then be
03:03:46 be over
03:04:16 for
03:09:16 e e
03:09:56 Mr wood I understand there are no questions from anyone other than reexamination by you just some very short matters I'm going to ask that uh
03:10:07 short matters I'm going to ask that uh uh Mr Lo's witness statement is brought up please that's UCC I
03:10:16 UCC I 36683 please and I'm going to ask you to look at um
03:10:19 paragraph 122 initially if you
03:10:28 can and this just deals with the question of age differences oh yes in the relationship and if you could just please look at and if we could have paragraph 122
03:10:43 up you were asked about the age difference you didn't seem to be able to say I just want you to look please at that paragraph can tell us whether that reflects the the the
03:10:56 position I think that is correct and uh there you indicated the
03:11:09 correct and uh there you indicated the age difference was something between 10 and 12 years old yes 12 years okay can we please move on please to paragraph 126 please slightly different topic this is about uh McDonald's and your leaflet that you were asked about yes and you were then asked whether um
03:11:23 yes and you were then asked whether um uh uh uh anyone else produced any other document and I just want you to ask you about that paragraph
03:11:36 about that paragraph there and in particular uh uh the last sentence of that
03:11:48 paragraph Yes a and can you please help us as to whether he he did prepare any other
03:11:53 other document as I as I was told as I understand it he did but at this stage I cannot
03:12:04 it he did but at this stage I cannot give chapter and verse it would have gone the it would have gone to the meeting
03:12:10 meeting but I just cannot give details now and even since writing you know doing
03:12:19 this okay it's a you know okay well then my final area that I want to ask you about is about Ronnie Lee all right yeah uh you you you talked about being associated and knowing Ronnie Lee and
03:12:31 associated and knowing Ronnie Lee and there was some material that indicated that Ronnie Lee was a friend uh how long was and when was Ronnie Lee involved in London Green Peace
03:12:41 Peace 1974 and for about how long was he involved a few well half a year but I knew him
03:12:49 knew him beforehand uh via the PE via some peace movement organization in 1974 for about half a year he's involved in London
03:13:01 half a year he's involved in London Greenpeace less than that less than that okay but a long time before the deployment of undercover offices and so forth way before okay yes so that's all all I have to ask thank you very much thank you um Mr L thank you very much
03:13:17 thank you um Mr L thank you very much for coming and telling us all about your experiences of 40 years ago your difficulty in Remembering precise
03:13:31 difficulty in Remembering precise details is wholeheartedly understood by someone who is slightly older than you are you yes I just had my 75th birthday I'm not asking your right in that event I won't confess
03:13:43 right in that event I won't confess it we will resume tomorrow at 10: when first of all I must hear some submissions from Mr wood uh uh uh and then we will resume the evidence and then in the afternoon uh I will hear further submissions when the evidence of
03:13:57 further submissions when the evidence of Dave Morris which will be given tomorrow is
03:13:58 is concluded thank you