Morning session featuring Belinda Harvey's testimony about her relationship with undercover officer Robert Lambert ('Bob Robinson'). Harvey was NOT an activist but was deceived into romantic relationship 1987-1988. Testimony reveals Lambert's systematic deception: fake backstory, tricking her to meetings, living in squalid flat as cover, disappearing for weeks claiming 'work' when actually with real family. Powerful account of profound betrayal by police officer targeting non-activist woman.
00:25:57 e e
00:26:43 good morning everybody uh today's proceedings are uh being broadcast on the live link with a 10-minute delay uh those of you at the back will know what I'm about to say uh if you have got
00:27:02 I'm about to say uh if you have got electronic devices here you may use them to tell the outside world what you have heard in the hearing room but only 10 minutes after the event you are describing you may not use them for photography or recording
00:27:23 yes do the affir okay if you like to repeat after me I do solemnly sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give
00:27:34 affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth yes M Harvey um we have a break um halfway through the morning proceedings of quarter of an hour for the benefit of
00:27:49 of quarter of an hour for the benefit of the transcribers but if you at any stage feel you need a break yeah just say so and I'll rise and you will have it thank you thank you yes Miss Harvey do you recall providing two witness statements to the inquiry
00:28:02 two witness statements to the inquiry one dated the 17th of June 2024 and a second dated the 12th of November 202 yes I do are you familiar with the contents of those statements yes I am
00:28:13 contents of those statements yes I am and can you confirm that the contents of those statements are true and correct to the best of your knowledge I can thank you can you please tell us your name um Belinda an Harvey you're a core
00:28:27 Belinda an Harvey you're a core participant in this inquiry because you had a relationship ship with an undercover officer called Robert Lambert who you knew as Bob Robinson we'll start by looking at some very some
00:28:39 start by looking at some very some background briefly then we'll look at your relationship with Lambert how it started and progressed and various notable incidents that took place over
00:28:54 notable incidents that took place over the course of that relationship and then we'll move on to the impact it's had on you finding out the truth about him we'll start Miss Harvey just with some background to your beliefs um have you ever been an
00:29:06 beliefs um have you ever been an activist um no I haven't ever been an activist um I may have gone on um sort of Marchers and things like that like demonstrations for CND
00:29:21 demonstrations for CND particularly U things like that but now I've never I'm not I wouldn't call myself an activist at all in your witness statement you refer to uh attending a few student demonstrations when at Lanas University yes you say CND
00:29:33 when at Lanas University yes you say CND D and anti-apartheid yeah but that's the extent of yeah absolutely um were you at any point
00:29:44 absolutely um were you at any point affiliated with any group or campaign affected by SDS undercover policing no not at all you say in your witness statement that whilst you have never been an
00:29:56 that whilst you have never been an activist you have strong political and ethical beliefs and interests can you tell us just a bit about those um yeah well I've always been interested in um particularly women's issues um and
00:30:13 issues um and uh things like um children overseas in developing countries and you know not having enough food and things like that and sort of maybe issues of inequality um yeah thank and
00:30:28 inequality um yeah thank and you will sit in your witness statement that your father brought you up to have the courage to challenge the status quo and to try and change the world for the better is that right yeah I mean he was
00:30:44 better is that right yeah I mean he was always um very outspoken in his beliefs but equally he also you know um instilled in me that you know you have
00:30:55 instilled in me that you know you have to recognize Authority and you know live live live a lawful life um yeah so yeah he gave me quite a lot of values like that but
00:31:08 values like that but also you know not to just blindly follow the crowd and to think for myself yeah yeah and a strong sense of right and wrong yeah really strong sense of right or wrong I went um I'm not religious now but I was originally brought up as a
00:31:20 but I was originally brought up as a Catholic and that was very important to me as well you know when I was very young yeah and gave me that kind of moral you know guidance yeah moral compass
00:31:31 compass you say that you became a vegetarian at University yeah and you broadly agreed with the sentiments of the animal rights movement is that right yeah I mean it was never
00:31:40 was never particularly a strong issue for me animal rights um I was more interested in you know women's rights really and children's rights um but yes when I was
00:31:59 children's rights um but yes when I was at University I sort of met people on my you know in the in the residences who were
00:32:00 were vegetarian and yeah I decided that I actually preferred vegetarian food and started thinking a little bit about things like factory farming I did I
00:32:16 things like factory farming I did I thought you know factory farming wasn't right yeah um yeah and it was just a personal feeling I didn't sort of impose it on anyone else it was just I didn't want to you know
00:32:28 it was just I didn't want to you know want to do the least harm that I could um in the world and it just suited suited me yeah yeah you say in your witness statement that you didn't and you still don't believe that activ activism is an
00:32:43 believe that activ activism is an effective means of bringing about change why not at all um well again I think originally it might have come from my dad that you know it's better if you want to change things to do it sort of within the
00:32:54 within the system um and yeah sort of yeah if you want to change a particular thing then you join in with
00:33:10 particular thing then you join in with that that group like for instance um you know be later on in my life I became a midwife and you know again that was because I wanted to make things better um for women and you know the way to do it and to make changes is to actually
00:33:24 it and to make changes is to actually become involved in that profession yeah within the system yeah ABS 100% yeah and you say that again around the time you met Lambert you wanted a career and a stable Family
00:33:41 a stable Family Life yeah that was always very important to me I mean you know my background we were we weren't very well off and you know sometimes struggled with housing issues and even you know all sorts of things and yeah I wanted to be
00:33:53 things and yeah I wanted to be independent and you know it was important to me to to have a career and not to be dependent on a man or anybody
00:34:05 not to be dependent on a man or anybody else really and to sort of you know make my own way in the world yeah yeah so that was your focus so you didn't is it fair to say you didn't have the you you didn't have the time to devote to activism but nor did you have the inclination to get involved it's just
00:34:19 inclination to get involved it's just not something I was interested in at all I I didn't actually in those days I mean rightly or wrongly I don't know but I've always felt it's it's it's not the way to change things um and
00:34:35 it's not the way to change things um and yeah I was sort of I was quite ambitious as well I wanted to do well and I felt that if I was working I wanted to you know earn as much salary
00:34:47 wanted to you know earn as much salary as I could and things like that in order to you know be independent and be able to yeah have my own home and things like that I have a stable life yeah
00:35:10 um when you met Lambert um He suggests I won't bring it up but in his interviews that he had with operation Hearn in September 2013 he says this about you when you met he says that you were part of a fairly sort of political angst sort of anti-
00:35:24 sort of political angst sort of anti- police and sort of pro- anarchist sort of
00:35:28 of scene is that an accurate description of your scene at the time no not at all I mean I would say in those days I didn't even know what an anarchist was um I didn't know what that
00:35:44 was um I didn't know what that meant um most of my friends well pretty much all of them were people from Lancaster
00:35:45 Lancaster University that we'd all come down to London and really to look for careers and all my friends were mostly working
00:35:58 and all my friends were mostly working in public service at things like British Telecom and I was working for the electricity board at the time um so yeah we all came down and we were all working fulltime
00:36:14 fulltime and yeah so they weren't an aurs not at all um and were you and your friends
00:36:25 all um and were you and your friends anti- police not at all no I mean I've never really had any involvement with the police I didn't really have any feelings either way if anything I was the kind of person that would go to the police if I was in any trouble you know
00:36:33 you know generally
00:36:35 generally um yeah I mean I think I did have a little bit of a weariness of authority which was partly because just from my parents been
00:36:52 because just from my parents been struggling sometimes and maybe you know things like that but my parents were never in trouble with the police so essentially you saw the police as a force for good in those days yeah yeah yeah um in that same interview from
00:37:12 yeah yeah um in that same interview from 2013 uh Lambert states that you may have gone to a few animal rights meetings with him did you go to any animal rights meetings with him not at all I mean the only time I ever went to well it wasn't really an animal
00:37:24 to well it wasn't really an animal rights meeting it was a London Green Peace meeting um he was always trying to get me to go to London Green Peace meetings you know but I just wasn't
00:37:38 meetings you know but I just wasn't interested at all um can I ask when you say he was always trying to get you to go to them how was he doing that was he just trying to persuade you to come along no he just He suggests why don't you come along with me you know it's
00:37:49 you come along with me you know it's really interesting I God no it's not interesting at all to me you know although what I did do right from the beginning was go to the Hub
00:38:00 from the beginning was go to the Hub afterwards where they used to meet you know after after the meeting you know because yeah you know was quite Keen in those days you know and going after work not every night but going to the pub
00:38:17 not every night but going to the pub yeah um socializing you know that was a big a big thing you know at Lancaster University it was really really good social life um yeah and going to the pub and meeting people and and yeah maybe talking about
00:38:31 talking about politics and stuff in a general way yeah um but that was after the meetings so you'd meet oh yeah meet some of those people socially but not all a lot socially yeah yeah yeah um so you say
00:38:43 socially yeah yeah yeah um so you say that there was one meeting or you refer in your witness to one London Greenpeace meeting you attended can you tell us how you ended up at that meeting yeah so
00:38:57 you ended up at that meeting yeah so really um it was sort of almost like I was sort of tricked when I look back into going and even at the time I sort of thought oh he's got me at this meeting um you know in a kind of amused kind of way
00:39:08 kind of way because um yeah we were actually going somewhere else or on the way back from something yeah and he said oh yeah I just need to pop in here and I was didn't know where we were going and
00:39:21 didn't know where we were going and before I knew it I was sat in this room at a London green peast meeting um just you know and I I would I didn't leave I think it it wasn't at the
00:39:32 didn't leave I think it it wasn't at the beginning I think it was halfway through I was only there about 20 minutes half an hour and you know it was quite sort of formal and everyone's sort of quiet so obviously once I was sat in there I didn't sort of get up and leave yeah I
00:39:45 didn't sort of get up and leave yeah I just sort of stayed there and listened yeah well I think you say in your witness statement as well that you were you would have been embarrassed to get up and leave so partly out of politeness
00:39:58 up and leave so partly out of politeness yeah social embarrassment yeah to get up and leave it would just soon a bit rude yeah um did you say anything to him afterwards about the fact that he tricks you into coming to the meeting not really it was kind of an amused trick not you know when I look
00:40:10 amused trick not you know when I look back I feel it was tricked but it was kind of an amusement oh you didn't tell me we were coming to this meeting you know just laughed about it so he laughed about it he it like yeah yeah very
00:40:21 about it he it like yeah yeah very much um you say also in your witness statement that you attended one hunt s yeah I did um actually sorry just a quick question can you help us with when that lgp meeting was in
00:40:38 1988 um don't worry if you can't but just I say it was maybe about oh it could have been anytime really but maybe about August July August or something
00:40:52 about August July August or something like that I don't I don't really know it could have even been June right but a fair way into your relationship yeah yeah yeah um right sorry back to the hunt Sab so yes you say in your witness statement you attended one hunt Sab in
00:41:07 statement you attended one hunt Sab in 1988 yeah with a friend that Lambert had introduced you to um did Lambert go on this hunt Saab with you or did you go without him no I actually went without him I mean he was always asking me to go with him on
00:41:19 always asking me to go with him on things right um but I was really you know I just fell madly in love with him both Bally and you know I wanted to show
00:41:32 both Bally and you know I wanted to show an interest in what he was interested in and try and understand it really and yeah there was one friend who was going you know was going to on this hunt s and yeah I mean he suggested I go on
00:41:45 s and yeah I mean he suggested I go on one loads of times anyway and I thought oh yeah you know finally I decided yeah
00:41:58 oh yeah you know finally I decided yeah I'm I'll go and see what it's about yeah and so he had given you the impression that he was passionate about hunts happing absolutely yeah okay so you thought that by going it was a way of connecting with him 100% yeah um I sort
00:42:11 connecting with him 100% yeah um I sort of saw it as a day out to be honest and in a social way you say that when you were on that Sab you spent most of your time in a Land
00:42:20 Land Rover
00:42:22 Rover um did you participate in any sort of sabbin activity oh no not at all but to be honest I don't think anyone there was not much happened um so from what I
00:42:33 not much happened um so from what I remember we were just driving around from one place to another I think yeah there was one point where I did stay in the Land Rover and the others got out yeah
00:42:45 yeah and yeah there was some kind of minor confrontation with the the Hun Hunters
00:42:58 confrontation with the the Hun Hunters yeah um but nobody was hurt or anything like that it was and can I ask why did you not get out of the Land Rover and join well I was just going along as I say as a social if I mean it's not something I actually F I wasn't even sure how I felt about it really um
00:43:10 sure how I felt about it really um because mainly because of my feelings that you know human suffering is my main interest and and yeah women's women's rights
00:43:32 rights and I just didn't have any not at all I wasn't really that interested in it I just as I say it was just a way of I wanted to impress Bob to be honest that's why I went yeah and was he impressed was he happy I think he was
00:43:44 impressed was he happy I think he was yeah yeah was he yeah yeah that's really good you know did you try and encourage you to go on more hunts ABS he he was always trying to encourage me to do anything like that any yeah all the time
00:43:51 time um I'm just going to take us to a document in a minute actually this is about a meeting in Manchester that Lambert refers to again in those 2013
00:44:05 Lambert refers to again in those 2013 interviews and you comment on it in your witness
00:44:06 witness statement um you say in your witness statement that you think you may have gone to Manchester with Lambert on one
00:44:18 gone to Manchester with Lambert on one occasion yeah so obviously this has come up a few times so I've had time to really sort of delve into my memory um and the main thing is yeah my best friend at the time from Barn furnace where a went to school and six
00:44:32 furnace where a went to school and six form and stuff she was at um Manchester poly
00:44:33 poly Technic
00:44:34 Technic and I think I might have even stayed with her I can't remember if Bob stayed there as well in her you know Halls of residence and that's the only bit I
00:44:45 residence and that's the only bit I remember sure stay seeing her and yeah vague memory of it and you think Bob was there oh Bob was definitely there we definitely went up there together okay um yeah and he was going up there for
00:45:02 um yeah and he was going up there for whatever meeting or some event which I may or may not have gone to I can't quite recall well I'll bring up what appears to be his report on that event see if that jogs your memory but don't
00:45:15 see if that jogs your memory but don't worry if it doesn't um so yes he says in his Hearn interview that he that you attended with him what he describes as quite a big meeting in Manchester I don't know if it might have been in a
00:45:32 don't know if it might have been in a university it was a big Hall and lots of animal rights activists from around the country um if we could bring up please MPS
00:45:40 07445 uh sir this is tab one in your supplemental bundle uh page two
00:45:51 bundle uh page two please and this is a report from Lambert dated the 6th of October 1987 and it records a meeting
00:46:02 1987 and it records a meeting which appears to fit the description in his Hearn yeah interview um a large meeting of 80 attendees of a group called The Federation of local animal rights groups or flog in Manchester um if we just look at paragraph two
00:46:13 if we just look at paragraph two please he writes on Saturday the 26th of September the Federation of local animal rights groups flog held a planning
00:46:24 rights groups flog held a planning meeting at the University of Manchester and Oxford Road 80 activists mainly anarchists attended the meeting several leading animal Liberation Front activists were identified at the meeting
00:46:39 activists were identified at the meeting does that rig any Bell um I sort of have a vague memory of something going to a something where he might have been speaking right I don't know if he spoke there and I sort of I would have been
00:46:51 there and I sort of I would have been there you know support him um speaking yeah um and because it wasn't really stuff I was that interested in I think that's why can't remember any content well was I definitely can't remember
00:47:04 well was I definitely can't remember anything you know related to the animal Liberation Front because I would certainly have remembered that if it was
00:47:15 certainly have remembered that if it was something yeah in extreme in any way but yeah General animal rights meeting I I would gone I wouldn't have gone on my own yeah of my own accord in in any way cuz as I say it's to me I would see it's sort bit of a waste of time but but
00:47:31 sort bit of a waste of time but but obviously going with my boyfriend as a support support him in what he was interested in yeah um yeah it was generous of you in a sense that you were taking an interest in the things absolutely yeah and obviously the weekend would have been you know a
00:47:45 weekend would have been you know a weekend away together and just seeing it in that kind of social spending time together which you yeah can you remember at all what he spoke about at the meeting no I can't actually um
00:47:59 meeting no I can't actually um we'll just go back to paragraph two again he
00:48:05 again he says just halfway down will they were unable to discuss Alf policy and business in such an open Forum they had ample opportunity to do so during the course of the weekend at the homes of TR trusted Manchester comrades in
00:48:22 trusted Manchester comrades in particular they were anxious to discuss the setback to the to their incendiary device campaign against the fur trade caused by the recent arrest of Andrew Clark and Jeff Shephard in
00:48:35 Clark and Jeff Shephard in London now again in his Hearn interview he says
00:48:37 he says that he says this about this meeting he says on the same day after that kind of animal rights meeting I think going to a party and she's with me you're she and
00:48:49 party and she's with me you're she and there are some quite experienced animal rights extremists there do you have any recollection of that of going going to a party I think I I may well have done I was very keen on going to parties
00:49:02 was very keen on going to parties generally um and meeting different people but um I wouldn't actually know what an you know what an activist was I
00:49:14 what an you know what an activist was I didn't really know anything about thing anything like that yeah so um well you you've answered my next question which was going to be if you did go to this party were you aware of any discussion of Al activities of incendiary device
00:49:31 of Al activities of incendiary device deves not in the slightest I mean no not at all I mean as so it was a general it's just a party that yeah
00:49:43 general it's just a party that yeah right no not at all I mean as I say I'm pretty certain I stared with my friend right in the you know at night and I think he must have stayed there as well and again to the best of your recollection did Lambert say anything to you that weekend about discussions about Al activity or incendiary device is or
00:50:00 Al activity or incendiary device is or such like no I mean he did say things to me obviously say that I've put in my statement yes yeah oh yeah we'll come to that but I just mean this specific weekend yeah as I say it's really hard
00:50:11 weekend yeah as I say it's really hard to delve in my memory to remember that weekend at all but you know particularly as I say I particularly remember staying with my friend and seeing her
00:50:22 friend and seeing her and yeah and I have a vague memory now it's been mentioned so many times that he might have been speaking right at
00:50:33 he might have been speaking right at some event and and that we went there yeah and and going to a party would totally fit in with that yeah yeah um
00:50:44 totally fit in with that yeah yeah um right we'll move on now to how you met Lambert
00:50:46 Lambert yeah you were 24 at the time yeah and you were living in London in this large shared house in Mar Park Road that's
00:50:59 shared house in Mar Park Road that's right and was everyone living in that house a friend of yours from University yeah most nearly all of them I think there was one um who was a girlfriend of somebody I'd gone to University with cuz also I'd after
00:51:12 University with cuz also I'd after University I've gone out to America for a year and worked in America in a hotel and then when I came back my parents have mve didn't well they they didn't
00:51:26 have mve didn't well they they didn't they weren't their accommodation wasn't very uh they were living in kind of temporary
00:51:33 temporary accommodation and so I went to stay with my friend one of my good friends in in who lived in London in Stratford and um they all went to Northeast London poly right and
00:51:46 Northeast London poly right and so you know I knew them as well so yeah one or two of them were people from Northeast London poly Technic but mostly it was my friends from Lancaster University and how many people roughly living in that house it it was a big
00:51:58 living in that house it it was a big house it was a rented house um I think
00:52:09 house it was a rented house um I think it was about eight people maybe yeah and you were all working yeah I mean there was eight bedrooms but some of the people were couples so there would have been more than eight people living there cuz people had their girlfriends and boyfriends there quite a lot what were you going to say when was everyone
00:52:25 you going to say when was everyone working everyone in that house everybody in the house was working by then I mean they'd all finished by then their Student Life the ones at Northeast po yeah we were all working as I say mainly things like British
00:52:38 things like British telicom that's yeah all all mainly mainly public service jobs really and what did you do for a living at that time so I was working at the
00:52:50 at that time so I was working at the central electricity generating board as um originally I joined I started there um I got it through the job
00:53:01 there um I got it through the job center um as a clerical assistant in Rec the
00:53:05 the Recruitment and then after a year or so I got promoted you know as I say I've always been trying to you know improve my career um and then I became Like An accounts assistant in the payroll
00:53:20 accounts assistant in the payroll department and it was at bankside house yeah okay in London yeah and it there was a sort of career path I understand because they were going to train you be
00:53:31 because they were going to train you be an accountant yeah I mean my boss there was you know very interested in encouraging me to become an accountant um I mean I was slightly reluctant because I thought it was a little bit stuffy but then I got the
00:53:47 little bit stuffy but then I got the more I progressed in my career CU I got promoted again yeah um within the pero department and yes I was I you know he he was I was close to my boss he was you know in this sort of per you know annual review views and things he encouraged me and they
00:53:59 and things he encouraged me and they were actually going to um you know I could do it while I was working so that I'd be paid while I was doing the
00:54:11 I'd be paid while I was doing the studying I'd sort of do two days yeah on the accounts course and then the three days back at work in the proll department right so you're working hard yeah um but essentially you were a young
00:54:27 yeah um but essentially you were a young woman a graduate in London yeah having a lovely time socializing absolutely from responsibilities relatively speaking Yeah I mean yeah my main concerns were
00:54:38 Yeah I mean yeah my main concerns were my career building my career um meeting a partner because I was very keen yeah to have a family yeah and yeah socializing yeah you know to have a good time but also to meet a partner sure
00:54:55 time but also to meet a partner sure yeah uh the party was Simon tain's idea yes it was and can you just tell us quickly how you knew Simon yeah so I met Simon in Lancaster University and we
00:55:11 Simon in Lancaster University and we always just hit it off straight away um it was always a platonic relationship but very close one and um yeah he was really you know he was a really clever guy he knew a lot of stuff read a lot of
00:55:22 stuff read a lot of books and we used to have great conversations you know I'm I'm a great one for kind of intellectual conversations about stuff and and yeah
00:55:37 conversations about stuff and and yeah and and and also he likes to go to the pub as
00:55:41 pub as well um and you know Lancaster University was quite uh you know it was great in those days it was fantastic there was different colleges and they all had a
00:55:56 different colleges and they all had a bar and I remember when I arrived there you know they were all on rent strike and you know it was just kind of interesting and challenging different ideas yeah um there was a lot of people there who were from from the south of
00:56:08 there who were from from the south of England which had never really been down south in those days um you know and that was they were all new and interesting and yeah I loved it though
00:56:21 interesting and yeah I loved it though it was great yeah exciting yeah and and me and Simon were great friends and he studied politics didn't he he did he the impression I get from your statement and also his statements that he
00:56:33 also his statements that he was interested in politics and able to talk about them oh yeah I mean I was interested in politics as well in the sense that you know about Injustice in the world as I say you know yeah um I
00:56:47 the world as I say you know yeah um I was interested in it as well and and and to make the world a better place you know and to talk about it we all used to talk about it but not really do very much well that is my next question that s
00:56:56 s just for the avoidance of doubt he's he was not an activist no not at all no not at all you know we I would never wanted
00:57:10 at all you know we I would never wanted to I just wasn't interested in it for a start and it wouldn't better my career or yeah this there would be no reason for me to be interested in it and Simon at this time was working full-time for British Telecom he was yeah so um he
00:57:23 British Telecom he was yeah so um he suggested going to this party can you just tell us why did Simon want to go to the party yeah so yeah it was it it was the party was from someone from
00:57:39 the party was from someone from Lancaster University who I didn't really know yeah um but Simon knew her and he was he wanted he was single and he wanted he was interested in her yeah and he wanted to go and see you know see her
00:57:56 he wanted to go and see you know see her and see you know if he could develop his interest in her really sure yeah um and I understand that you were initially reluctant because it was a Monday night yeah but that he managed to persuade you yeah well I mean I didn't need much persuading to be honest but um yeah obviously with the
00:58:10 but um yeah obviously with the consideration we need both needed to go to work the next day yeah um yeah yeah a Monday night is quite an unusual night for a party but yeah um
00:58:21 unusual night for a party but yeah um Lambert just for the avoidance of Doubt again he says in his inquiry witness statement that you were at this party because you were and I quote connected to his Target group and his Target group was London Greenpeace and would you
00:58:37 was London Greenpeace and would you describe yourself at that time as being connected to London Green Peace no not at all I mean as I said before well
00:58:49 at all I mean as I said before well hinted at Lancaster University was quite full of a lot of quite you know ra not radical but you know people who were interested in political things just talking about things um but I do have a memory there was some people at Lancaster University who were interested in animal
00:59:02 in animal rights um I mean there was also people at the University who were interested in I don't think it was called feminism in those days it was more called animal women's
00:59:14 women's Liberation um but there was you know a group of I mean it was me there was
00:59:27 group of I mean it was me there was quite a lot of middle class people what I would consider middle class people there who maybe hadn't got into the university that they've originally Chosen and had gone to Lancaster University um you know and as a result it was full of quite sort of PE interesting people um and
00:59:44 sort of PE interesting people um and yeah I I wasn't I remember particularly the women's groups they were too too radical for me for instance they used to have some parties where like men were allowed which to me is just you know an aema why would I want to go to a party
01:00:00 want to go to a party well there's no men you know I didn't understand that and also there was things like yeah like really you know I remember I had this friend this male friend and he was kind of like all these women thought that he
01:00:15 of like all these women thought that he wasn't he hadn't been treating his wife very well or something and like they were shunning me they saying oh you shouldn't be hanging out with him but I mean you know I'm not going to listen to that you know he's my friend and yeah um but I do remember there was you know some people who were interested in
01:00:27 some people who were interested in animal rights and do you think the person as far as you can remember was the person who this girl whose time was interested in was she linked to that yeah well I didn't know that at the time
01:00:42 yeah well I didn't know that at the time but subsequently before he died right um we did discussed it obviously when we found out about all this and we were trying to work out um he thought maybe that she was but
01:00:54 that she was but only he wasn't yeah you know it was only he thought maybe she' she might she had been yeah so I think
01:01:05 she might she had been yeah so I think maybe she was um the party venue yeah uh again in his Hearn interview Lambert says that you met at an anarchist squat in a kind of again I quote kind of anarchist squatting Al supporting
01:01:22 anarchist squatting Al supporting environment and um in his inquiry witness
01:01:24 witness statement he says doesn't go quite that far but he says I met Belinda Harvey at a social Gathering organized by the squatting Community around May
01:01:37 squatting Community around May 1987 so can I ask was the party where you met Lambert held in a squat well I mean if it was I wasn't aware of it I mean to me it was a big Victorian house um it was just a seemed
01:01:53 Victorian house um it was just a seemed to me the same as the house I was living in like a rented house where lots of students were living um and it didn't look like a squat at all I mean obviously when you're a student you know think your house isn't
01:02:11 student you know think your house isn't that yes your stand it's not really nice furniture and things but I remember it being really quite nice and with nice carpets
01:02:15 carpets and furniture and it wasn't like really messy or anything I remember it was really big it had loads of different rooms and there was different people in different rooms um I spent most of my time in the kitchen
01:02:27 time in the kitchen uh yeah but it wasn't your impression anyway that it was a squat from not at all all that the I mean I I do remember thinking when I went there that the people you know quite you
01:02:42 people you know quite you know you know I don't know what the word is kind of in those days things like people a bit Punky and things like that Al kind yeah Alternatives that's the word I'm looking for um yeah I do remember I didn't know
01:02:57 for um yeah I do remember I didn't know anyone there at all not a single person except for Simon um yeah but I did notice it was a bit different right to the kind of parties that I usually went to slightly
01:03:11 parties that I usually went to slightly sure yeah um so are you able to comment on whether the party was organized by the squatting Community well as far as I was concerned it was not at all it was
01:03:23 was concerned it was not at all it was this friend from not friend of mine but friend of Simons from Lancaster University and it was her house and you know we all had parties at our houses regular you know every so often and
01:03:36 regular you know every so often and invited all our friends and yeah so not at all I mean not at all um small digression but it's just while we're talking about squats MH um in his Hearn
01:03:50 talking about squats MH um in his Hearn interviews Lambert also suggest that you yourself were a squatter
01:03:56 squatter um so again I won't bring it up I'll just quote it but from his Hearn interview from September 2013 he says in the event she was you know perhaps unusual in she was squatting it turned out she was squatting at a house around
01:04:12 out she was squatting at a house around sto Newington Hackney and then she moved to another squat so she was kind of an established member of that squatting scene and he also says her immediate group of friends you know they were sort of squatting I would go back to her
01:04:23 of squatting I would go back to her squat when you met lamber but were you living in a squat no I was living in a rented house um a student rented house in marer part Road IM Margery part Road
01:04:38 in marer part Road IM Margery part Road and so none of that I mean I didn't I'd never even been to Star Newton at that time right um so when I first came back from America after University um I was in Stratford three
01:04:50 University um I was in Stratford three two different houses before margerie par Road um but when you met him you were in margerie par road I was in margerie par road yeah with with all my friends working I mean again paying our rent
01:05:02 working I mean again paying our rent sorry give giv your answer this might seem like a silly question but were you an established member of the squatting scene no I mean I didn't even know what the squatting scene was really um no I
01:05:15 the squatting scene was really um no I wasn't I was an established member of of graduates yeah who um were all in London yeah renting houses now we'll come to this later I understand that later on
01:05:27 this later I understand that later on you came to live in a squat yeah through Lambert but we won't talk about that now we we'll come to that in due course
01:05:41 um right okay we'll go back to the party so
01:05:49 so yeah the first time you met Lambert um I understand from your statement that the party was winding down and Simon had gone to say goodbye to the girl hosting the party that he
01:06:01 to the girl hosting the party that he was interested in yeah and you were both planning to get the bus home is that right
01:06:03 right yeah so you were alone and then you caught Lambert staring at you yeah I mean I think I remember about this time it was kind of getting into like when the last bus was going to be leaving
01:06:15 the last bus was going to be leaving yeah and we started sort of thinking maybe we were going to have to get a taxi or to get home because we might miss the last bus so it's just kind of that kind of time and then he said oh
01:06:30 that kind of time and then he said oh I'm going to go and try again sure to to to with this girl I mean it had been to see you know it been see briefly before that but um yeah and i' maybe chatted to a couple of people yeah that I didn't know who were in the kitchen can I ask
01:06:43 know who were in the kitchen can I ask you sorry where was this house can you remember is it walam Stone I can't really remember I think Simon said in his statement where he thought it was
01:06:58 his statement where he thought it was yeah I think I think it's wam St yeah um and you had to get back to Forest yeah to Forest Gate yeah oh yeah um so you caught Lambert staring at you yeah cuz it was kind of the kitchen and then it was kind of kitchen living room yeah um
01:07:12 was kind of kitchen living room yeah um and he was like in a circle with a group of people about I don't know about eight people um yeah and I just kept noticing him looking over at
01:07:23 him looking over at me um
01:07:26 me um and how did you respond to that yeah well as I say I was looking you know I was I was looking out for a partner as you do at 24 when you're
01:07:40 you do at 24 when you're single um and so yeah he was good really goodlooking I thought and and yeah I started looking back right but he was making it clear nonverbally that he was
01:07:54 making it clear nonverbally that he was interested in absolutely sort of looking over and then maybe giving me a little smile and things like that um I think I think that started before
01:08:08 um I think I think that started before when I was still talking to Simon before he went um off yeah yeah and it was one of the reasons why we maybe didn't go for the last boss because i' noticed this guy who was looking at me and yeah you know yeah he was showing an interest you yeah um did he come over to you and start talking yeah he did yeah
01:08:25 start talking yeah he did yeah um you say that you found him in that conversation Charming interesting intelligent and assertive yeah can you help us with what it what was it about him that was so interesting yeah well I to say I I
01:08:40 interesting yeah well I to say I I wouldn't um I didn't go over to him because you know that isn't you know you sort of expect a man in those days you know the man would sort of show the interest and um you know yeah he he W basically we to
01:09:01 um you know yeah he he W basically we to when Simon went off again as I said been H the eye contact had been starting before
01:09:02 before that maybe for a little while and um Simon went off and so I was stood on my own in the kitchen there was about four
01:09:18 own in the kitchen there was about four or five other the people there just who I didn't know um you know and he came over and what was he talking to you about like how did he start that conversation just in the normal way hi I'm Bob um and you asked me I think what I found yeah what did you find
01:09:31 I found yeah what did you find interesting about him yeah he was he was tall and
01:09:39 tall and good-looking um he was maybe a bit sort of Scruffy dressed but he was had a really nice smile and really Charming um and yeah and when I once I started talking to him you know he's very confident
01:09:53 him you know he's very confident and really you know really interesting and yeah immediately yeah was attracted and you know and and pleased that he was interested in he
01:10:05 pleased that he was interested in he seemed interested in me would it be fair to describe the way he was talking to you as he was chatting you up oh yeah 100% yeah yeah um but you had a rapport like you had a instant chemistry oh
01:10:18 like you had a instant chemistry oh straight away you know it was like we talking and both had a lot to say and yeah there was no silence answers or anything like that it was just immediately obvious and he was
01:10:30 immediately obvious and he was interested in you and that he asked you a lot of questions about yourself yeah he was interested in me and equally back I was interested in him and you know your body language and things like that sure yeah did he try and establish then
01:10:46 sure yeah did he try and establish then whether or not you were an activist did you ask you any questions about that not at all I mean we may have talked about politics in that the way that students types do
01:10:55 types do yeah um like how you feel about various issues you know nuclear disarm was quite a big thing in those
01:11:10 disarm was quite a big thing in those days um and yeah so we could I don't I don't remember talking about no we didn't talk about animals animal rights no but we might have talked about other and also I think we talked about about music quite a
01:11:22 music quite a lot um because we were both interested in music and yeah yeah and he was telling me what bands he liked right and and he was uh he was slightly older than me so slightly different you know some
01:11:33 me so slightly different you know some of the music that he was interested in was like sort of fam Morrison and things like that um yeah and yeah I was more sort of Genesis and Pink Floyd kind of
01:11:45 sort of Genesis and Pink Floyd kind of stuff safe to say you you clicked anyway it was AB straight away yeah really real chemistry like you say yeah um you say in deep deception that you'd had your
01:11:59 in deep deception that you'd had your heart broken not long before you met him do you think that affected the way you reacted to lamb but in the sense do you think it made you more receptive or do you think it had little to do with um yeah I had had my heartbroken
01:12:14 with um yeah I had had my heartbroken like I've gone to America with somebody I'd met at Lancaster University and you know we had a great time out there and then it was quite unexpected that he suddenly
01:12:26 unexpected that he suddenly decided he wanted to find himself and he wasn't ready to settle down and stuff like that um so yeah I had had my heart broken um and a little time had passed
01:12:41 broken um and a little time had passed and I wanted to meet somebody else um so I was open to meeting a partner so in that sense yeah it did have some yeah in that sense that I was yeah yeah your susceptibility it were I I was single
01:12:54 susceptibility it were I I was single and yeah yeah and young yeah um we're going to talk now about Lambert's age yeah
01:13:03 yeah um now I understand again that you were having such a good time with talking to Lambert that you gave up all idea of getting the bus home yeah absolutely and then he offered you and Simon a lift
01:13:15 then he offered you and Simon a lift home is that right that's right yeah I mean Simon had kind of come back by this point and then I'd sort of told him to go away you know had indicated you know
01:13:26 go away you know had indicated you know and he saw cuz he'd come back to see if I wanted to go really yeah um you know and I was S no I'm not ready to go yet and so he went back off to talk to this girl
01:13:36 girl again um and then I think probably another half an hour went by uh and then Simon came back and then he started talking to Bob as well talking together
01:13:54 talking to Bob as well talking together yeah and then yeah the party was winding down and we started talking about going home and me Simon started saying you know how we going to get harm yeah U maybe we'll get a taxi and um and then Bob helpfully yeah offered a lift and
01:14:07 Bob helpfully yeah offered a lift and yeah of course we both yeah that's great thanks very much yeah um can I ask on that lift home were you s was this his
01:14:18 that lift home were you s was this his van that he was driving you in yeah and were you sitting in the front with him yeah the van and was Simon where was Simon yeah he must have been in the back yeah um cuz I was definitely sitting in the front right so next to him yeah
01:14:31 the front right so next to him yeah um now in your witness statement you say that on the ride home you asked him his age can I just ask when you to the best of your recollection when you asked him that did he know you were
01:14:47 that did he know you were 24 um well I would think if I was asking him his age he would ask mine so yeah absolutely I mean I from my memory he was like about five or six years older but I think in reality it was actually more than that yeah yeah well we we'll come to it so he
01:15:02 yeah yeah well we we'll come to it so he what I understand from your statement is that he told you he was 29 and the the reason you remember that is cuz you clocked that he was around the same age as your older sister correct yeah my older sister's five and a half years older than me um and and also yeah that
01:15:15 older than me um and and also yeah that was the kind of music you know yeah that that age group listened to and he told me that he was that age and and that's as I say that's why I remember it CU I thought oh he's about the same age as my
01:15:26 thought oh he's about the same age as my older sister yeah yeah so sort lodged it in your mind yeah
01:15:38 in your mind yeah um now we know that he was in fact 35 at the time he wasn't 29 and actually His official cover age was also 35 okay
01:15:41 35 okay so does it follow from what you've said that at no point he showed you any cover documentation I mean you wouldn't have known it was cover like a driving
01:15:52 known it was cover like a driving license anything like that I you'd have no reason to ask to see somebody's documentation I mean I suppose it's possible that I've remembered wrong about his age but I don't know 10 years seems a long a big 11 years seems a big
01:16:06 seems a long a big 11 years seems a big difference I feel as though I would have remembered that if he was that much older than me CU especially when you're 24 that's a big Edge Gap yeah it always means more yeah so I'm I'm I'm pretty
01:16:20 means more yeah so I'm I'm I'm pretty sure he didn't tell me he was 35 I would have I would that would have been a bit of a bit of a sort of red FL I don't know I wouldn't have liked that M yeah um did you over the course of your
01:16:31 um did you over the course of your relationship with him did he ever celebr did you ever celebrate his birthday yeah I know I had his his his birthday written in I mean my diary from I've got all my Diaries except for the one from
01:16:43 one from 1987 including I've got I've got 1988 so I've got written in there Bob's birthday right can you remember the date of it don't worry if you can't no don't worry March I can't remember but I know in my
01:16:54 March I can't remember but I know in my diary I've got I've got it written down Bob's birthday do you recall at all that when you celebrated that birthday did he say he was turning 30 I just can't remember and did you
01:17:08 30 I just can't remember and did you celebrate it with a group of people or was it a more intimate celebration I think it was most likely to be with a group of people but I can't specifically
01:17:20 group of people but I can't specifically remember okay don't worry um right going back to the lift home in deep deception you say that on this journey he told you that he was a vegan who was passionate about animal rights do you recall is that something
01:17:32 rights do you recall is that something he told you on that yeah well it might have been just as we arrived home yeah he he mentioned um being a vegan
01:17:44 he he mentioned um being a vegan definitely I'm not 100% sure if he mentioned animal rights but he definitely mentioned being a vegan because I remember being quite taken back cuz I I didn't really know anyone
01:17:55 back cuz I I didn't really know anyone who was a vegan why why you taking a b but I mean well in those days it was quite unusual to be even a vegetarian you know it was quite unusual just taking a back cuz I thought well what does it what you know I couldn't think
01:18:06 does it what you know I couldn't think what you would eat um you know in those days yeah um yeah like when you went out and things it was quite hard to be a
01:18:19 and things it was quite hard to be a vegetarian no nowhere cared for it um and yes so I was quite T yeah yeah like stop it pulled you up a little bit yeah yeah um so I understand that Lambert dropped
01:18:33 um so I understand that Lambert dropped you and Simon off he got to margerie par road so he obviously knew where you lived and is it right that Simon tamaine got out of the van and then went up to the front door leaving you and lamber in the van yeah or maybe stood outside the
01:18:49 the van yeah or maybe stood outside the van together right um I understand that you
01:18:50 you kissed yeah uh can I ask who initiated that kiss yes I would say it's probably Mutual um yeah I mean yeah it was
01:19:01 Mutual um yeah I mean yeah it was mutual and after that kiss what did he say I mean when I say it was Mutual um
01:19:13 say I mean when I say it was Mutual um as I say in those days things were like men and women it was a bit different like it was all you know woman wouldn't really instigate thing I don't know no more body language type thing but I
01:19:26 more body language type thing but I would certainly be receptive yeah to it so what what was the next B sorry yeah the next one is after that kiss yeah what did he say I mean I understand that he asked you he made it clear he wanted to get in touch is that right 100% yeah it was you know left that oh yeah want
01:19:44 it was you know left that oh yeah want to see each other soon yeah and did he ask you for your number yeah and you gave it to him yeah so yeah it was very clear that he was interested in you romantically there was no doubt about that abely really very clear how how did that make you
01:19:56 very clear how how did that make you feel did that make you happy oh yeah it was it was fantastic I just thought wow you know this is great you know I really really like this guy I straight away I'd only met him a couple of hours before
01:20:09 only met him a couple of hours before and you know he was showing an interest I mean at that point I didn't know if he would get in touch again sure um and yeah and I didn't I don't
01:20:25 um and yeah and I didn't I don't remember him coming in I don't think he did come in no um for to or anything I don't I don't think he did cuz I have this memory of him you know because I remember thinking we've got to go to work
01:20:33 work tomorrow and and obviously by this time it was getting a bit late sure um and needed to go to bed and get ready for
01:20:44 needed to go to bed and get ready for work the next day uh and again for the avoidance of Doubt um in his witness statement Lambert says about your meeting and the beginning of your relationship but he says about that particular first time you met that was the beginning of a friendship that
01:20:57 the beginning of a friendship that developed into a sexual relationship subsequently yeah I mean you didn't sleep with him that evening but would you ever describe your relationship with
01:21:09 you ever describe your relationship with him as a friendship at no not at all not at all straight away there was kind of romance and chemistry yeah um yeah straight away yeah it was on the cards I mean I was you know want to see someone
01:21:26 mean I was you know want to see someone a couple of times anyway before sure but yeah yeah um yeah so that's never friendship no way uh I'd like to bring this up this is one of your exhibits uh Miss Harvey it's um MPS
01:21:37 um MPS 0737
01:21:44 0737 136 uh page five please this was an exhibit you provided to operation sparkler uh sir it's at tab C1 uh this is a letter to you from
01:21:55 C1 uh this is a letter to you from Lambert yeah um I'll read it out it says at the top Tuesday evening 228 Graham Road E8 dear Belinda just a line to say that I'm thinking about you a lot and that I'm looking forward to seeing you again soon so I'll limp downstairs to
01:22:09 again soon so I'll limp downstairs to the letter box and post this card to you and then I'll search for a phone box that works and ring you for a date Love
01:22:21 that works and ring you for a date Love Bob um can you help us with when you got this letter yes it was very soon after the party
01:22:22 the party so yeah he's put put Tuesday night it must have been he put Tuesday evening so I must have got it Wednesday after when I got him from work yeah and the party
01:22:35 I got him from work yeah and the party was Monday night yeah it was hand it was hand delivered right well that was my next question cuz he says in the letter something about going to a letter box and posting it but actually it was hand delivered that's what I remember I
01:22:50 delivered that's what I remember I remember that's what I recall rightly or wrong that might not be right but I recall yes it was hand deliver but that might not be right yeah I understand that Simon told you i' have been hand like Simon handed you the letter is that
01:23:02 like Simon handed you the letter is that right yeah he did so I came in from work and he was like oh you got a letter you know yeah maybe it's from that guy yeah yeah yeah
01:23:10 yeah yeah um this is just a tiny point but do you know what Lambert meant when he said in the letter I'll limp downstairs was there something wrong with that he'd
01:23:26 there something wrong with that he'd gone over on his ankle or something like that um yeah I yeah okay okay um what was your reaction to getting this letter well I mean it's so enthusiastic isn't it I mean you can't really you know there's nothing to be mistaken
01:23:37 know there's nothing to be mistaken there cuz I wasn't although he'd said he'd get in touch and we see each other I didn't know if he actually would yeah um and it came so soon after the party as well like he didn't wait a week or
01:23:48 as well like he didn't wait a week or anything like that and yeah I mean I was absolutely delighted to get it I thought wow you you know this is really this could be really yeah this is really
01:24:01 could be really yeah this is really exciting yeah very keen yeah um and did he ring you for a date as he said he would y uh can you remember when he did that how soon after getting the letter within a day or two you know very
01:24:12 letter within a day or two you know very very soon uh yeah and I can remember the first day yeah we'll come to that um and he I got the impression again from
01:24:30 he I got the impression again from deception that you agreed you decided to go to a vegetarian restaurant in Stoke Newington yeah so was that a mutual decision or did he suggest no not at all I mean I'd never even been to St Newton so I wouldn't have a clue no he definitely would have suggested that and he took me there right uh in the van so
01:24:45 he took me there right uh in the van so he kind of came and picked me up then we went in the van do you can you recall again don't worry was it a Lebanese restaurant I can't remember what kind of I remember where it was um on Church
01:24:56 I remember where it was um on Church Street okay um in St new inter but it served vegetarian food in any event it did I mean I think it's not there anymore I think there's a car park there
01:25:08 anymore I think there's a car park there now but um yeah I remember exactly where it was yeah and it did serve vegetarian
01:25:21 it was yeah and it did serve vegetarian food and I was a vegetarian so yeah good news uh right so we'll look now at the first date um you say in your witness statement that on his date he he was wonderful essentially he presented as genuine romantic and
01:25:33 genuine romantic and attentive um just looking at that in a bit more detail what was it about him that came across as genuine um well he sort of gave you eye contact UM smiling sort of maybe you know a little
01:25:47 smiling sort of maybe you know a little bit of touching on the shoulder um yeah and sort of mutual interest in every topic we were discussing yeah um you know no kind of of awkward moments or
01:26:02 know no kind of of awkward moments or anything like that just yeah really nice and same question really about romantic what was it about his behavior that was romantic um what I think not during the meal it was just yeah looking at each
01:26:13 meal it was just yeah looking at each other and sort of Leaning forward things like that s body language really yeah um and then yeah I remember after we left the restaurant
01:26:34 the restaurant we we we held hands yeah yeah I'll come to the bit where you go to gr Road in yeah a short while um did he pay you lots of
01:26:36 lots of compliments yeah I
01:26:43 mean yeah I mean I can't really recall exactly on that first day what compliments uh or how much but we certainly were in you know as I said just body language and being generally interested in each other and finding out
01:27:01 interested in each other and finding out about each other yeah yeah um you say in deep deception that on this date it sounds like he revealed a little bit more about his activism um that he told you at this point that he was a member
01:27:14 you at this point that he was a member of London Greenpeace and that he was a supporter of the Al and a vegan um but you say we know the veganism was mentioned all the way back
01:27:26 veganism was mentioned all the way back from the party but is that correct so on the date he told you about London Green Peace and supporting the AL well I can't remember him saying about supporting the ALF and I didn't really know particularly what the ALF
01:27:41 really know particularly what the ALF was though I had I had heard of the ALF because of some the only thing I knew about it was something about some baby food and so it was on the news yeah like they said they put some glass in some baby food or something and I thought
01:27:55 baby food or something and I thought that was a terrible thing at the time you know obviously and now but apparently they didn't it was a hawks or something and it was but I would have thought I was such a stupid thing to do but I can't remember him actually mentioning the ALF at that point but he
01:28:11 mentioning the ALF at that point but he definitely mentioned London green pieace and can you remember what he said about it just roughly yeah he said that it wasn't exactly like the normal Green Piece um that it was slightly different um like a you know slightly different
01:28:22 um like a you know slightly different Focus or but generally yeah yeah I mean I knew I was I was a supporter of Green Peace yeah um and you know not when I
01:28:36 Peace yeah um and you know not when I say a supporter I was interested in it and heard of it I wasn't a member or anything yeah um did he talk about anarchism specifically did he describe himself as an anarchist or yeah he he might have done but to me I think maybe
01:28:48 might have done but to me I think maybe we would have had a discussion about whe voting because you know I was brought up to always vote and it's really really
01:29:02 to always vote and it's really really important that you vote in the general election you know my dad always right you've got to you know you must vote yeah and
01:29:04 yeah and um if anything I didn't really know and I don't don't you know don't really know much about anarchism um especially in
01:29:15 much about anarchism um especially in those days um but the one thing would be that he might have said he didn't vote right because being an anarchist meant you didn't vote which I just thought was stupid really at you know because well
01:29:26 stupid really at you know because well why not yeah you know how are you going to ever CH have an influence if you don't vote and you know and that that just seems to me crazy um so that would have been as far as it would have gone in terms of a discussion about anism can
01:29:43 in terms of a discussion about anism can you recall how you felt when he told you that he was involved in London green peece like was it something that you found appealing or did it put you off a bit or no I would say I suppose I was
01:29:55 bit or no I would say I suppose I was quite impressionable really when I look back I I think I was kind of impressed yeah that he was involved in something and felt it was worthwhile giving his time to something that you
01:30:11 giving his time to something that you know to trying to yeah to me Greenpeace was trying to do some quite good work yeah and I obviously thought that you know similar kind of thing um and there was like you know the whales and
01:30:23 was like you know the whales and everything and you know just stuff about green pece and nuclear stuff as well anti-nuclear Green Peace was sort of involved in antinuclear you talking
01:30:37 involved in antinuclear you talking about Green Peace Green Peace not London well I am because that's how I thought that's all I knew about London Green Peace he told me it was diff a bit different but still in my head I didn't
01:30:48 different but still in my head I didn't I didn't thought it was similar sure um and so you you were quite impressed so thought he was a man of principle exactly yeah I thought wow that's you know
01:30:54 know you know sort of self it's not self-serving is it it's something you do yeah you know it's something you would do as a good thing that you thought like highly principled I thought he you know
01:31:09 highly principled I thought he you know he was strong and had principles and you know like yeah so that I would I would be slight so no I wouldn't say I was put off at that point um with that because I thought it was quite you know good did you find it slightly I don't know if
01:31:22 you find it slightly I don't know if it's quite the right word but a little bit intimidating in the sense that it made you feel a bit self-conscious about the fact that you weren't as principled as him yeah I did actually I did because I felt I think I always felt like I
01:31:40 I felt I think I always felt like I should be more involved in politics and not activism but going on M you know going on demonstrations like for CND particularly um and anti- aarti I was
01:31:51 particularly um and anti- aarti I was really interested it but I always felt a bit guilty that I didn't actually go yeah to the to the Marchers as much as I should uh you know I felt a bit like I should um um we you've you've said in
01:32:02 should um um we you've you've said in your witness statement um about feeling slightly ashamed or he's not wanting to reveal to him that you worked for the central electricity generating board yeah that's right
01:32:17 yeah that's right um why was that it was that because you thought he he disapprove yes so yeah I kind of it was a bit of a thing really that I didn't actually tell him where I
01:32:33 him where I worked um and it became a bit of a thing I did definitely didn't tell him on the first day did he ask you where you worked I can't really remember I certainly would have lied CU I'm not I'm not that kind of person but I would have kind of you know give some kind of
01:32:44 kind of you know give some kind of General answer or sure um yeah because I didn't I
01:32:49 didn't I thought I did know quite I did know some people who were kind of like a bit more radical not radical but alternative time types
01:33:01 types who you know they're mly I mean this is in my naivity or whatever you know I felt you I was from a workingclass background and you know when you work in class you money's you know getting some money is important you need to Buble to be self-sufficient and so like a lot of
01:33:17 be self-sufficient and so like a lot of the people at Lancaster University were from middle class Southern Homes you know and they had money from their
01:33:24 know and they had money from their family and things like that they used to send them money when they were students which I never had anything like like that um and so I was kind of used to people sort of bragging about how
01:33:38 to people sort of bragging about how alternative they were or I don't know um yeah and I never really I always had this feeling I didn't really want you know want
01:33:43 know want to that I should be better than I was kind of thing I always felt I should be doing more I should be yeah and and when I met him I was just so you know it was
01:33:57 I met him I was just so you know it was going so well that I didn't really want to spoil it I thought oh I wonder how he'll feel that particularly that I worked for somewhere that's involved in new nuclear power stations you know to me I thought you might disapprove um so
01:34:10 me I thought you might disapprove um so it took a while for me to tell him sure yeah we'll come to that when you do tell him the truth about that um you say you make a point in your witness statement about
01:34:21 about he while you were you know you were quite impressed by the fact he was so committed to these CES that also you didn't take it entirely seriously is
01:34:36 didn't take it entirely seriously is that fair to say yeah that's right I mean it kind of started as I say at Lancaster University that you know people would sort of say they you know everyone would like pretend they had less money than they did and pretend they were more working
01:34:56 did and pretend they were more working class than they were for whatever reason I don't know but it was kind of seen as quite cool to yeah you know to be like that and did you think he was did you suspect that he might be doing that as well like slightly overplaying it yeah oh definitely 100% because partly because he didn't present as a person
01:35:15 because he didn't present as a person who would be involved in anything like that he you know he seems like fairly middle class and yeah well educated uh that's how he seemed and yeah he just didn't seem the kind of person and yeah I thought yeah he just a
01:35:31 person and yeah I thought yeah he just a lot of it's just you know bragging he'll just yeah it's not really serious he'll grow out of it yeah he doesn't really mean yeah yeah mean it necessarily yeah um can I ask what did he tell you on this date about his relationship status
01:35:43 this date about his relationship status did he say anything about oh absolutely told me he was single yeah and and yeah and did he ask you about yours yeah
01:35:55 and did he ask you about yours yeah right yeah so it was established you were both absolutely because I mean I'm not the kind of person that would be interested in anyone who is going out with somebody
01:36:09 anyone who is going out with somebody else or interested in somebody else yeah um as I say I was looking for a partner you know a life partner you know I I obviously didn't think at that point that it was going to be him but you know after a while with in a partnership then you know these things develop yeah we
01:36:22 you know these things develop yeah we wanted to know there could be a future to it oh absolutely I definitely wouldn't have gone gone on dates with people who were had any kind of um other commitments in any way uh now after the date I understand
01:36:37 way uh now after the date I understand that you went back to his flat in Graham Road was did he suggest that oh yeah yeah I mean it was quite early on in our relationship really I mean I don't know yeah met him at the party and then on
01:36:49 yeah met him at the party and then on this date how soon after the party was the date roughly it like it was probably at the weekend you
01:37:01 at the weekend you know um did you drive back to the flat or walk
01:37:08 or walk back well I remember we drove there so I'm sure we would would have drove we would have drove so like yeah I rememberers walking and as I say holding hands for the first time um yes you mentioned that and so that was a
01:37:20 mentioned that and so that was a significant moment because your first sort yeah because it was like establishing it as a romantic thing rather than anything else yeah like a couple yeah I mean yeah and was the restaurant close to his
01:37:32 restaurant close to his flat um well it was in St new in turn and so it wasn't like really close but uh his flat was in gr Road right in in Hackney so we would have drove or got
01:37:49 Hackney so we would have drove or got the bus it's not walking distance right so we would have drove yeah in in his van I mean we would have discussed you know we discussed as I say we held hands
01:38:00 know we discussed as I say we held hands yeah and then that was kind of it really yeah um and then yeah he suggested coming back to his yeah rather than me going home yeah and and I agreed you were Keen yeah yeah um you describe uh the flat or the
01:38:14 um you describe uh the flat or the bedsit on Graham Road as groty and sparely furnished and you say it was above a barber shop it was um and it's not just that it was it was
01:38:30 um and it's not just that it was it was sort of meager in terms of its size but also it was dirty is that right yeah I mean I was actually quite shocked when I walked in there yeah I really was taken back why were you shocked well it just it was so it was
01:38:47 shocked well it just it was so it was just wasn't nice it wasn't very nice it was kind first of all you went in through the door and then the stairs were probably quite was quite grubby and like a very old carpet I don't know I
01:38:59 like a very old carpet I don't know I just didn't expect him to live somewhere like that um not that I lived where I lived was fantastic but it was certainly better than that but it was at odds with the Persona he presented you didn't
01:39:10 the Persona he presented you didn't expect him to live in such a yeah though he was to say he was reasonably scruffy he was a bit scruffy dressed yeah and I
01:39:21 he was a bit scruffy dressed yeah and I did think that but nothing that unusual because students were well he wasn't a student but student types were um but yeah I was really shocked that his mattress he only had a single mattress and it was on the floor you know it wasn't even a bed um and yeah
01:39:35 know it wasn't even a bed um and yeah there wasn't much just a room and and the kitchen was absolutely tiny and it had like a sort of geizer boiler thing for your hot water yeah and and he
01:39:53 for your hot water yeah and and he shared it with this other guy and who yeah it just seemed it just seemed horrible and then in his room I mean it was a reasonable size but yeah the windows were really dirty and I remember thinking oh God you know but then you
01:40:06 thinking oh God you know but then you know London Windows do get dirty it was particularly dirty like you could hardly see out of it you know um do you think he could tell that you were
01:40:21 he could tell that you were shocked possibly not because I covered it up because I didn't want to yeah I didn't want to put him up you know I didn't want him to think that yeah I didn't want to put him off I was really keen on him and yeah so you HD it
01:40:33 really keen on him and yeah so you HD it so what you hid the fact absolutely yeah I definitely didn't say anything I didn't say well what's this place or anything like that I just I yeah I just like took it in my
01:40:47 just I yeah I just like took it in my stride really just thought these things internally to myself yeah and also you liked him a lot so I really liked him but also it looked like very sort of poverty stricken kind of you know and I wouldn't have I don't know he didn't seem particularly poverty stricken right
01:41:04 seem particularly poverty stricken right did he pay oh well he offered to pay for the meal didn't he I know he didn't but yeah yeah he did offer to pay for the meal um and I you know insisted on paying half because I didn't want to be beholden or yeah it's just not my kind of style really I'm very very
01:41:18 of style really I'm very very independent and and you know my parents you know my mom yeah you know my dad they used to argue quite a lot on things and you know I didn't want to ever have to be trapped in any relationship that
01:41:32 to be trapped in any relationship that yeah yeah so you weren't interested in him because you thought he was a well off no not slight no not in the slightest um you said in your witness statement that when you were in this flat he he acknowledged that it wasn't
01:41:47 flat he he acknowledged that it wasn't much yeah um and that he said sort of by way of explanation is the way I understood it that at night he drove a taxi and that he shared it with a friend and that that's that way he earned money to pay for the
01:42:02 to pay for the rent is that what he told you absolutely yeah he he said he I don't know what point he told me exactly I don't know if he told me that night right um but you know over the course of the first few
01:42:18 know over the course of the first few weeks he told me that he worked he was he told me he was a taxi driver initially it was probably a bit later on when he admitted that it wasn't actually his taxi it was somebody else's taxi and that he yeah he drove it during the
01:42:29 that he yeah he drove it during the night and this guy drove it during the day right so you don't think that came out not at that point no This was later he kind of drip feed of this for all
01:42:41 he kind of drip feed of this for all this stuff you know as it went on yeah increasing in sort of yeah I mean at that point yeah he would have mentioned as I say I didn't tell him I worked at the cgb so obviously work didn't particularly come up but the point he
01:42:54 particularly come up but the point he was making here the I get is that he was he made it clear that he he only did sort of casual quite low pay yeah he
01:43:05 sort of casual quite low pay yeah he said that his his man interest was being you know animal animal rights and and campaigning and and that he didn't really you know work and career wasn't like his main focus um yeah at all yeah
01:43:18 like his main focus um yeah at all yeah that wasn't his priority that wasn't his priority at all no um did he mention anything at this stage about doing gardening work or any casual I mean I mean I might have put that in the book
01:43:29 mean I might have put that in the book but that's sort of yeah he it was I just say it could have went on really I I sort of mainly remember the taxi thing at the beginning and then I think it was later that he started saying that he did gardening work as well yeah yeah I don't think he did that all the time it was
01:43:40 think he did that all the time it was sort of on and off like you get a job and and somebody and and he said that he used to work I think in hamstad in like
01:43:51 used to work I think in hamstad in like quite well off areas yeah um because you know you could earn quite good money doing that but it was all casual it was all on the Casual foot yeah you say um that in any event
01:44:08 yeah you say um that in any event despite the grotty flat you had a lovely time and you spent the evening talking and drinking just a very small digression did Lambert drink quite a lot of alcohol generally not really no no
01:44:21 of alcohol generally not really no no okay no not really um in the flat you say that you noticed Pine of the what's wrong with McDonald's Leaf flirt so that might not been on the I don't think that was the first occasion when I went around it could have been
01:44:34 when I went around it could have been fine okay yeah I'd interpreted it but maybe it wasn't but it was something that you noticed when was yeah there was one occasion when I went around there
01:44:45 one occasion when I went around there and yeah there was like great big piles like this tall like about four or five piles of these like lad of these leaflets like not just a few yeah like
01:44:56 leaflets like not just a few yeah like not they weren't in boxes they were were just like freestanding piles on on this table what did he say about the Le flirts did he tell you what he intended to do with them
01:45:11 them um well I think there were London Green Piece Lea flets I think you said there were London Green Peace Lea flets um
01:45:14 flets um you say again in your witness statement that you weren't surprised when you saw all these leaflets in his flap because at the time you knew he was a committed vegan campaigner yeah absolutely so he
01:45:30 vegan campaigner yeah absolutely so he impressed that upon you yeah um and you also say that you agreed with the sentiment in the leaflets although you thought that some of the claims were a bit farfetched yeah so does it follow from that that you had a look at the
01:45:41 from that that you had a look at the leaf you had lots of leafl I mean even going back to Lancaster University people you know were quite sort of used to talk about multinationals and how yeah they were causing problems in developing countries and you know
01:45:59 developing countries and you know obviously you know children you know not having enough food in Africa and things like that you know was a really big concern of mine yeah and um you know some people used to say that
01:46:11 some people used to say that multinationals could have kind of caus some of that um by exploiting yeah so yeah so generally yeah I thought it was a bit far it was quite funny I thought it was
01:46:22 far it was quite funny I thought it was quite amusing the leaflet I thought you know
01:46:23 know it's it said things like they're responsible for clearing the rainforest and things like that which I didn't thought I mean I remember trying to
01:46:34 thought I mean I remember trying to check things like that ler and finding out yeah actually there was a bit of Truth in that yeah that actually that was a bit of truth but at the time when I read it yeah it was well yeah that's a bit farfetched you know and also I'd
01:46:45 bit farfetched you know and also I'd never previous to that had any reason to think McDonald's were any worse than any other sure multinational company you know um you're aware that ultimately
01:46:57 know um you're aware that ultimately McDonald's sued members of London Green Peace for liable are you able to help us with whether it was your understanding
01:47:08 with whether it was your understanding that that leaflet was the same leaflet that was the subject of those liable proceedings yeah absolutely I mean I'm not aware of any other leaflets I mean I think people have said to me recently that there might have been different versions of it or I think it was in one
01:47:20 versions of it or I think it was in one of the evidence days that somebody said there were different versions of it but I wasn't aware of that before I thought
01:47:31 I wasn't aware of that before I thought there was just one version and this was definitely the one yeah version yeah I mean it was just maybe it was maybe two a four sheets you know made into a booklet yeah um or maybe just one but two I think
01:47:42 um or maybe just one but two I think yeah um and it said things like yeah about the rain forest sure um and the date roughly when you saw these leaflets was it quite quite soon after you and
01:47:56 was it quite quite soon after you and Lambert met so are we thinking sort of I mean if it wasn't on that first night but we're talking May June 1987 well it was in 1987 definitely it was in
01:48:09 was in 1987 definitely it was in 1987 um I can't remember the exact date but fairly early on maybe July August okay thank you um
01:48:20 maybe July August okay thank you um still on the topic of the leaflets yeah um I understand from Deep decep that probably around this time I suppose around July 1987 you were strolling around a park with Lambert when
01:48:40 with Lambert when he told you something well he told you that the police were looking for him because of the leaflets is that correct
01:48:41 correct um from what I remember he told me the police were after him for some parking fines right rather than no it didn't say I don't think no he didn't say they were aftering for the leafl okay um no not at
01:48:59 aftering for the leafl okay um no not at that point he didn't he didn't tell me I don't even know what point he told me the police fine I can't say it was like early on no I might be conf no I might be compl conflating two things but I do
01:49:11 be compl conflating two things but I do understand that as I say everything sort of gradually built up wasn't like I learned all this stuff about him on the first day it was sort of a gradual thing as we got to know each other um and he told we talked more about it to each
01:49:28 told we talked more about it to each other about of know past and yeah well you said he dri fed to you which is a good word yeah um but in any event I understand that around July 1987 he told you that he had written the leaflets is that correct yes I think it was more like
01:49:42 like September you know CU I soon to remember it was sort of autumn um okay so to the best of your recollection was that after deams if we can just try and oh yeah point at right
01:49:59 can just try and oh yeah point at right um and can you just tell us how he told you what did he say about yeah we were just walking in the park and you know and it just I don't know why it came up uh I I can't remember why we started talking about the
01:50:10 talking about the leaflet um I mean the leaflet was quite a thing because not only had to seen these piles of leaflets obviously it was intended to distribute them it was kind of trying to get rid of them as it were
01:50:24 of trying to get rid of them as it were you know um to get people to distribute them so that was an ongoing thing cuz there was so many of them um and yeah he said that he told me started laughing and said that oh actually um you know I I wrote the
01:50:38 actually um you know I I wrote the leaflet he told me that he wrote the leaflet I think he said it with one other person right said him and this other person WR wrote the leaflet um and he just thought it was absolutely hilarious and I I couldn't
01:50:50 absolutely hilarious and I I couldn't really understand why I thought it was so funny I remember thinking why was so funny I you know I just didn't get why I thought it was so funny that he'd written the leaflet did you ask him
01:51:02 he'd written the leaflet did you ask him why he found it so funny yeah I did yeah and what was his reaction I don't know I don't know I can't remember really just laughed yeah just thought it was really funny what
01:51:13 just thought it was really funny what did you think about the fact that he had written the leaflets I think by the time then I I say it was like September or something yeah I was getting to know more about
01:51:26 yeah I was getting to know more about him so it didn't really surprise me that he' written the leaflet CU yeah he was quite you know involved sure in things and he was quite a leader you know he's a kind of leader type person I mean I think I was a bit as
01:51:40 person I mean I think I was a bit as well in those days you know and you know our
01:51:46 our personalities um and he you know in some ways I was I mean I actually wasn't anywhere near as confident as him yeah um but yeah it didn't surprise me at all really and you weren't bothered by it
01:52:02 really and you weren't bothered by it you didn't think not really no cuz as I say even at Lancaster University I had friends
01:52:03 friends who you know showed off about what they did and everything and and it was just a leaflet and I found it quite amusing the leaflet really I thought it was a bit
01:52:14 leaflet really I thought it was a bit over the top yeah I mean you say in your witness statement that also you were quite impressed because you thought he was pushing the boundaries I think is how you yeah I guess so I mean was a bit naive of me but yeah I I kind of yeah
01:52:33 naive of me but yeah I I kind of yeah it's quite an assertive thing to do and quite a you know it's not like a shrinking violet yeah yeah um I understand from Simon tamaine statements that Lambert on two occasions he says
01:52:46 that Lambert on two occasions he says that Lambert told him that he wrote the leaflets were you around were you present on either of those two occasions well I mean it's a long time ago but I'm sure yeah I mean he used to men you know yeah I mean the leaflets were talked
01:52:58 yeah I mean the leaflets were talked about obviously he brought some round to our house as well right not that we were that interested in them anyone in my house but yeah everyone looked at them and thought they were funny yeah so he advertised the fact that he wrote the
01:53:09 advertised the fact that he wrote the leaflets he advertised the leaflets I don't know if he told everybody it was as I say it was later on that he told after we'd seen the leaflets and
01:53:21 after we'd seen the leaflets and everything they've been around a while um it was after that that he told me that he' actually written it right so initially he didn't tell me he WR it yeah um did he give you the impression that that was information that you you
01:53:35 that that was information that you you should not advertise in the sense that that was that was yeah secret information to remember that he said oh but not everyone knows that we are I I can't really remember I've got a
01:53:48 can't really remember I've got a feeling yeah that everyone thought that it was it was meant to be like a collective thing that London Green Peace had done yeah whereas actually he said it was just him and this other guy and I think I think maybe the other people
01:54:04 think I think maybe the other people might think that I don't know that it was meant to be a collective leaflet that everyone has written together whereas he thought it was hilarious that actually just him and this other guy had written it yeah and that was a sort of secret Revelation as in it's not it's not the sort of thing that I go around talking about um just because it given
01:54:23 talking about um just because it given me the impression that everyone else you know he didn't want to take credit for it as it were sure that that would be kind of bigheaded or yeah um sir I'm about to move on to another topic I'm wondering if now is a good time for a break certainly um you
01:54:40 good time for a break certainly um you have a break for a quarter of an hour if you need longer just say so okay no that's fine thanks all
01:54:51 right
02:10:50 e e
02:11:39 Harvey I'd like to talk now about contraception personal subject um you soon started having a sexual relationship with Lambert after that first date
02:11:55 first date did he initiate the sexual relationship with
02:12:03 you um I was probably say it was fairly mutual and can I ask did you discuss contraception before the first time you were intimate with each other I mean yeah I would always want to know you
02:12:14 yeah I would always want to know you know we I would always dis well I I I was using contraception myself so I'm not really sure exactly when he asked about contraception but I would
02:12:31 about contraception but I would imagine yeah the F the first time right and and your recollection is that he asked
02:12:36 asked you yeah and you told him that you were using contraception yeah I mean if he hadn't asked me I would have told him anyway because obviously you know otherwise you might
02:12:47 obviously you know otherwise you might get pregnant yeah um so I would expect a man to want to know that and again I'm sorry for ask these personal questions but does it follow from that then that he was not using condoms that's
02:13:03 he was not using condoms that's correct uh I want to move now on to the emotional side of the relationship and how that developed yeah um you say in your witness statement that from that
02:13:14 your witness statement that from that first date onwards the relationship was idilic and you identify as one of the reasons for that being that Lambert essentially professed his love for you
02:13:27 for you repeatedly when did he first profess his love to you how soon after that first date
02:13:31 date um I'm not sure exactly but it would have been more demonstrative um right from the beginning so I can't exactly remember a specific time sure um but you know the
02:13:44 specific time sure um but you know the way we were with each other we were sort of you know was holding hands and hugging and so very physically looking after each other you know each other each other's interests um but definitely yeah at some
02:14:05 interests um but definitely yeah at some point um we expressed that to each other yeah and he was kind to you oh yeah I mean yeah he really was and can you remember ways in which he was kind like things like for little romantic gestures um maybe little gifts
02:14:24 gestures um maybe little gifts or you know offering to pay for things or which I wouldn't accept anyway but yeah and then [Music]
02:14:27 [Music] um yeah just generally being nice and encouraging um in in what I was doing at work for instance you know once yeah we
02:14:41 work for instance you know once yeah we discussed work once we yeah and you say that
02:14:42 that he had a great emotional intelligence oh yeah and is that what gave you that impression was that all part of what you've just just been
02:14:53 part of what you've just just been telling us just that he was kind and I did tell him quite early on about my previous relationship and now I'd had my heart broken um cuz this guy that had gone as I say I lived I was within
02:15:05 gone as I say I lived I was within America he suddenly decided he wanted to find himself and you know it was a big shock and I was heartbroken and I came back to England to
02:15:20 back to England to London and I told him about that I told him straight away you know that he had been in this relationship because at first
02:15:21 first um when we first started seeing each other I remember that I still felt very attached to this other guy even though he' you know it was like a year or two
02:15:35 he' you know it was like a year or two earlier um since we'd split up you know still
02:15:39 still was feeling for him so it was kind of gradual change to that being to Bob filling that space that previously he had
02:15:46 had filled and was Bob very empathetic about oh yeah very pathetic and seem to really understand and also things like about my childhood you know some financial
02:15:58 childhood you know some financial difficulties and you know just being you know we moved around a lot my dad had to move around a lot for his job to get
02:16:12 move around a lot for his job to get work um and I'd had to move to school a lot and things like that and he was always very you know interested and you know not sort of just putting things aside that he'd be very interested in what i' got
02:16:29 he'd be very interested in what i' got to say and and like affirmative yeah um when I said things and so I take from that that you confided a lot in him you were very open with him oh yeah I've
02:16:42 were very open with him oh yeah I've always been a very open person um that's just in my nature so you say that you thought he was your soulmate yeah absolutely and was it your impression that he felt the same way about you 100% yeah
02:16:54 about you 100% yeah in your witness statement you say that looking back you can see that I'm quoting from the witness statement he
02:17:07 quoting from the witness statement he totally wared my sense of what a healthy relationship should look and feel like and created completely unrealistic expectations for any future relationships yeah absolutely by that do you mean that no genuine partner could ever be as perfect as he was yeah he always seem to agree with me about
02:17:21 always seem to agree with me about everything you know like you know might have little well as I say my parents used to argue yeah a lot mainly because of financial difficulties and stuff like that um and they were you know maybe
02:17:37 that um and they were you know maybe shouting at each other sometimes and and you know I didn't want that and um we never even had the slightest little disagreement about anything and I just thought wow we're so well matched um apart from you know my concerns about his career and things
02:17:53 concerns about his career and things like that yeah we'll come to that but essentially it was was a very happy absolutely yeah and and also you know subsequently after he left I subsequently went on to have a
02:18:07 I subsequently went on to have a relationship a long relationship which unfortunately has now ended after 25 years um yeah he you know it came between us quite a lot of thing cuz apparently I say things like oh Bob never Bob was never like that Bob never
02:18:18 never Bob was never like that Bob never did that you know why can't you be more like B was yeah so that's why I think it warped my sense of what a normal relationship is like cuz I still don't really
02:18:34 really know yeah he was like the perfect part he really was he just we agreed on everything pretty much on a typical week yeah how much time would you spend together say about four or five nights it's and when you
02:18:46 four or five nights it's and when you were living at margerie Park Road would you spend those nights at Mar Park Road on the whole or would you split it between margerie Park Road and Graham Road no I didn't really go to Graham
02:18:59 Road no I didn't really go to Graham Road very much because first of all he had a single mattress on the floor yeah so which didn't wasn't very appealing and the kitchen situation wasn't very appealing none of it was
02:19:10 wasn't very appealing none of it was appealing I think I probably only stayed there in the whole relationship about four times I just wasn't somewhere and also he liked to come to mine it was much better you know it was more fun
02:19:25 much better you know it was more fun yeah we all used to cook together and yeah you know I mean he would go off doing his taxiing but he' he'd spent you know spent the whole after he there from work from when I got home from work till he went off to do his late night taxi
02:19:38 he went off to do his late night taxi job yeah again we'll we'll explore that in a little bit more detail in a bit but so it said you'd have four or five nights a week or evenings together yeah and a lot of thoughts he would St CU I
02:19:49 and a lot of thoughts he would St CU I think think he might have on it at the weekends I'm not sure really the taxi D but he certainly yeah stayed the whole night as well a lot of most of those
02:20:00 night as well a lot of most of those occasions a lot and he because he was at margerie Park Road a lot he got to know your housemates particularly Simon yeah yeah and I understand that they would have long
02:20:11 have long conversations uh would you be present when they had those long conversations or did they develop a sort of independent friendship yeah I mean some
02:20:22 independent friendship yeah I mean some of the time I was but that was more when we were talking about other things like socializing so just social sort of talk um but then sometimes later on um you know if they started talking about
02:20:35 know if they started talking about politics quite a lot then i' I'd get a bit bored
02:20:37 bit bored frankly um you know and I'd want to go and I don't know do something else or so you'd leave them to it yeah quite often um so they did have an independent
02:20:48 um so they did have an independent relationship as well as you know the three of us spending quite a lot of time together as well yeah and that was going to be my next question did would they largely talk
02:21:06 question did would they largely talk about politics was that the main topic I mean not always but when I wasn't there probably that was why I wouldn't be there I mean although they had a friendship it was sort of depend because he was there because he was coming to see me I mean they wouldn't they didn't have it like meet up on their own or
02:21:24 have it like meet up on their own or anything like that it was just that like Simon was a really really close friend of mine yeah like a brother almost um that's how our relationship was like brother sister kind of thing um you know and we were both from up North and we looked after each other yeah kept an eye out for each other really um so yeah
02:21:40 out for each other really um so yeah that he was there a lot so they got to know each other and became yeah so sometimes I got to bed before they did and you know they'd be talking yeah and as I say I'd go off if I got if they got yeah and did Simon from what you could
02:21:52 yeah and did Simon from what you could tell did he like Bob oh very much yeah he did really like him he thought he was really
02:21:59 really interesting um right I want to take you now miss Harvey to an incident that I think took place around May June 1987 so you'd been in the relationship
02:22:21 1987 so you'd been in the relationship with Lambert about a month yeah um and I understand that you were in a cafe with Lambert this is referred to in deep
02:22:22 deep deception where he extracted a promise from you that you would be faithful to him yeah I can't remember exactly how
02:22:37 him yeah I can't remember exactly how far I feel as though it was a bit later than that but um yeah it certainly wasn't within a month and and yeah yeah he he did it was probably within three months so
02:22:49 within three months so he yeah he he said to me that yeah he sat me down and I was quite sort of surprised that suddenly the conversation became quite serious cuz as I say it was all pretty you know everything was we
02:23:01 all pretty you know everything was we agreed on everything and then suddenly he became quite serious yeah and he talked to me about um that I mustn't ever be unfair full to him um which I
02:23:13 ever be unfair full to him um which I was quite surprised about because I just thought it was obvious that I wouldn't be unfair to him when when would have had the time to be unfaithful to him you know we were always together and why would I want to do that it's just a crazy thing but yeah we hadn't ever actually talk said yeah I just thought
02:23:32 actually talk said yeah I just thought it was obvious right um and yeah he was quite serious and and I remember
02:23:34 remember thinking yeah and he mentioned HIV so it was your understanding that he was saying you need to be faithful to me
02:23:45 was saying you need to be faithful to me because I don't want to get HIV well not because of that I think it was just because well well yeah I suppose that was why he said it did seem that but as I say I would have thought it was obvious that we wouldn't be because we were in such a romantic relationship I
02:24:00 were in such a romantic relationship I mean what you know it's obvious to me um but
02:24:01 but clearly he there was some stuff on the news about HIV it was around then yeah it was I think it was around the information Camp the don't die of ignorance exactly public information
02:24:13 ignorance exactly public information campaign so it was a big exactly it was a big thing so it was something that people rightly checked you can't make assumptions yeah um but I was quite
02:24:26 assumptions yeah um but I was quite shocked like how serious he was about it and I said obviously not no of course I would never do that um and you say in your witness statement that you actually felt slightly insulted when yeah a little bit because as I say I thought it was you know it would
02:24:44 say I thought it was you know it would trust me enough to know that I certainly wasn't going to be doing that yeah and also we've established this but again just for the avoidance of Deb he wasn't using condoms no wasn't and obviously when I reflect back I'm like that's just another yeah another wrong that he did
02:24:59 another yeah another wrong that he did me I mean you know I just can't believe it yeah it's just shocking but D definitely wasn't using condoms hence why he was saying if he was worried about HIV exactly un exactly did you
02:25:13 about HIV exactly un exactly did you reciprocate did you promise him I mean I infer from what you said that you said of course I'm not going to be but did he did he sorry did he reciprocate did he
02:25:25 did he sorry did he reciprocate did he say oh yes I will be faithful to you I I'm sure he did I mean I can't specifically remember but I mean it would be a bit one-sided if You' had just asked me I mean okay men and women you know it was a bit different then but you certainly wouldn't expect no we
02:25:37 you certainly wouldn't expect no we would we would definitely have talked about it I can't specifically remember it sure but 100% sure that we would have you know it would have been reciprocal yeah of course you say in your second
02:25:51 yeah of course you say in your second witness statement is in respect of the Revelation that he was in fact still sleeping with Jackie on occasion when he was seeing you just now and again um
02:26:02 was seeing you just now and again um that he gave you the impression that the relationship was monogamous so again while you can't remember an explicit necessarily precise
02:26:17 remember an explicit necessarily precise time when he said I am this is exclusive well yeah it was it was definitely you know in summer 87 yeah so yeah it was early on but he the
02:26:28 yeah so yeah it was early on but he the way he behaved the way he acted towards you always gave with the impression of course yeah it was exclusive yeah
02:26:38 definitely I'll move yeah just sorry just you know obviously what you're saying about Jackie is something just only recently I've been told I mean obviously at the time that wasn't no my understanding in the slightest you know
02:26:52 understanding in the slightest you know no he told me and Simon a very different story to that and it's in Simon St too right yeah we'll come to that but yes I mean I understand that's painful because that is something you've just discovered recently another shock yeah yeah
02:27:05 recently another shock yeah yeah yeah um moving now miss Harvey just to this matter of your job at the central
02:27:20 this matter of your job at the central electricity board I understand that you open you told him the truth about that oh yeah and that was about four dates into your relationship that's about right and uh your reason for doing that was that you felt guilty about not having told him yeah as I say I'm a very
02:27:32 having told him yeah as I say I'm a very open and honest person I don't see I was certainly not the kind of person's tell to keep something like yeah you know and I knew I had to tell him but I was a little bit concerned he might suddenly want to split up with me because of it I really was because of it's linked to
02:27:44 really was because of it's linked to nuclear power exactly and it didn't fit in with her his kind of persona sure and his friends and things um and when you did tell him how did he react oh I was
02:27:56 did tell him how did he react oh I was so relieved he was just just like it was nothing I think he laughed right he just thought no not at all of course it's not a problem why would I think it was a problem and then I said why I thought he
02:28:10 problem and then I said why I thought he might think it was a problem and he said no no I'm not like that I you know so you were relieved yeah I felt like he wasn't a controlling person at all yeah
02:28:24 wasn't a controlling person at all yeah zeelot I suppose yes exactly yeah he was yeah he wasn't a zeelot
02:28:35 yeah he wasn't a zeelot exactly um but I understand that on this occasion he then also made a confession to you and this is about TBS yeah can you and we we're referring to this person as TBS yes um but you have a cipher list just in case you need to remind yourself can you tell us what he told you about
02:28:57 TBS well he told me that he'd been seeing you know before he met me he'd been um seeing somebody yeah who's
02:28:58 who's Jackie um and that they'd had a child together right and that was TBS did he tell you why he'd not mentioned this to you before well as I say it was I had
02:29:10 you before well as I say it was I had mentioned where I worked so that was a
02:29:21 mentioned where I worked so that was a bit you know it isn't as isn't the kind of thing you necessarily say straight away because it's quite unusual for someone at my age to find out that somebody they're going out with has got a child
02:29:28 a child already um yeah yeah so what did he tell you about the
02:29:39 so what did he tell you about the situation with TBS as it stood then yeah he Tau me very much loved him um and he
02:29:50 he Tau me very much loved him um and he cared about him a lot um but he thought that he wasn't a good enough dad right um and he felt a bit guilty that he wasn't a good enough dad and that because of his activism right and that he devoted so much time to that and yeah I think he felt a
02:30:01 I think he felt a bit a bit bad that he couldn't be you know do more for him and do you what impression did you get then of how often he saw TBS well I mean I saw him
02:30:12 he saw TBS well I mean I saw him reasonably you know quite a few times myself
02:30:17 myself um um I think he saw him once or twice a week
02:30:20 week and with that that was taking him out yeah he go around to Jackie and pick him
02:30:33 yeah he go around to Jackie and pick him up take him out I didn't understand that they spent time in the house together I understood that he picked him up and took him out you know like absent fathers do and that they spend the day together and as I say sometimes he'd bring him around to mine and we' could
02:30:45 bring him around to mine and we' could go out together and other times but more often he'd see me during the week maybe when I was at work right him out for the day again we'll we'll look at some of those outings and also an incident that
02:31:00 those outings and also an incident that Simon talks about a little later on um I just want to ask you now miss Harvey about what Lambert told you about how TBS was
02:31:10 conceived what did he tell you about the circumstances surrounding TBS conception well I find it a bit difficult to talk about because I don't want to upset no I I am understand and
02:31:23 want to upset no I I am understand and that's incredibly tactful of you at all in the in so far as it's in undercover you said yeah I think it's all right to say that's we don't need to go into great detail and I completely respect
02:31:34 great detail and I completely respect and understand why you feel the way that you do but there is a factual dispute um and it it's in undercover so we we only
02:31:46 and it it's in undercover so we we only go as far as that yeah but I understand from that that he said that he told you that she had tricked him yeah I mean remembering that this man is a tall liar yeah um now we know
02:31:58 man is a tall liar yeah um now we know you know but that is what he said to me right and well when I said tricked that he said she said she was using conception when she was maybe wasn't I
02:32:10 conception when she was maybe wasn't I can't you know and I think she said the same thing to Simon yeah and Lambert obviously denies saying this to you yeah but you repudiate that and say especially because you know I've
02:32:23 say especially because you know I've only really just got around to reading Simon's statement last night in preparation for today and I and I and noticed it in there last night and previously I hadn't known that he'd said he'd said it to Simon as well yeah um
02:32:36 he'd said it to Simon as well yeah um so yes it's not just part of his story I'm not saying it's true no in any way oh absolutely not and that is not what I
02:32:48 oh absolutely not and that is not what I would be suggesting but yeah but that is what he told you because I feel Terri terrible yeah for her and for her for her son their son yeah just shocking um in your
02:33:05 shocking um in your 2018 statement you refer to this is um yes you refer to Lambert telling you that he was really pissed off about this about the fact that he had been tricked for want of a better word is that
02:33:19 for want of a better word is that correct um that's maybe putting a bit strong as I say he really loved this this the child he really you know cared about him a lot and and for Jackie you know he has
02:33:31 lot and and for Jackie you know he has expressed how you know concern for her right as as his the mother of his of their child yeah and he had nothing but love and concern for him right yeah I mean I think the the impression I get
02:33:47 mean I think the the impression I get from your 2018 statement is that you say that you thought he was making a point about how unhappy he was about it wasn't so much about his feelings towards TBS subsequently but about the fact that he was conceived
02:33:58 about the fact that he was conceived without his permission as it were or without his voluntarily doing it you felt that he was saying making a point of that to deter you from getting pregnant yeah is that accurate
02:34:09 pregnant yeah is that accurate absolutely that's 100% accurate yeah because he yeah that's right so that's what you took from that you thought I
02:34:21 what you took from that you thought I better not get pregnant or he'll get no I I wouldn't actually consider getting pregnant with somebody that I wasn't yeah you know in a proper relationship with I mean yeah we were in a proper relationship but we weren't like living together
02:34:29 together or married or anything you know it was still in its early stages fine so there was no discussion then I would I
02:34:42 was no discussion then I would I wouldn't have considered having a child myself so at that point right um you know obviously later on in the relationship I did you know would maybe think about bringing up yeah having one in the future um but not at this St but yeah I certainly took it to me and he wasn't
02:34:53 certainly took it to me and he wasn't ready for another one put it that way quite yet yeah yeah because he felt I think there was some concern about not being able to provide financially for for him you know and
02:35:06 financially for for him you know and that was part of what he felt bad about that he couldn't provide financially as well as he would like to yeah because he did all this casual his work was only casual and low pay
02:35:19 his work was only casual and low pay yeah there was a so when I looked back he did seem to have plenty of money yeah well again obviously at the time come to it yeah
02:35:27 it yeah um can I ask again I do understand your reticence about talking about Jackie but again this is something we just need to explore briefly yeah because there's a factual
02:35:38 factual dispute when
02:35:46 did sorry what did Lambert tell you about how the relationship with Jackie ended
02:35:53 um I think it was always well what he told me again I really I don't really want to talk about this but he you know he told me it was like a a relationship that only lasted a couple of months right okay it was like more of a casual
02:36:07 right okay it was like more of a casual relationship that's just what he told me but obviously that fitted in with what he wanted me to think yeah did he give you any sense of when it ended like a couple of months before or even quite recently before he met me right
02:36:27 um I'm leaping ahead in time a little bit here um this is something Jackie says in her statement I'll I'll read it out I don't think we need to bring it up but she she makes the point that she knew nothing about yours and Lambert's relationship at the time yeah and she then says I
02:36:40 at the time yeah and she then says I have since met Belinda and she told me that she would sometimes accompany Bob when he dropped off TBS at the end of a weekend but that he would instruct her
02:36:51 weekend but that he would instruct her to wasit around the corner from my house so that I wouldn't see her she told me that the reason he gave was that I would apparently have kicked off if I thought he was sleeping with someone else
02:37:06 he was sleeping with someone else despite the fact he had told her that our relationship was over is that correct is that what he told you
02:37:08 you so yeah I remember parking like down the road a bit so like not outside the house I mean though it was near enough for me
02:37:19 I mean though it was near enough for me I'll be able to see her come to the door yeah but he didn't want her to see me sitting in the car yeah um right I think it might have been to do with I don't know really why exactly so he didn't
02:37:31 know really why exactly so he didn't give you the impression that Jackie or did he give you the impression that she
02:37:42 did he give you the impression that she was jealous that she would be not at all no I think it was more no he didn't say that I I didn't really know why but I think it was more that she might not want her son to be spending time with another woman I think that's that's what I thought do
02:37:53 think that's that's what I thought do you know what I mean cuz you would I can kind of understand that it never crossed my mind that they were having still having a relationship a million years yeah um but yeah you know that she might
02:38:11 yeah um but yeah you know that she might or you know disapprove of him of her son right spending time with his dad with another woman which I can kind of understand that that is how I understood it anyway yeah and so you were happy to go along with what he wanted well yeah I didn't think I well I knew I was a nice person that I wouldn't you know so I
02:38:24 person that I wouldn't you know so I wouldn't I would be nice to her son you know I was always nice to him and looked after him and kept an eye on him when we were together when I was there with him yeah I mean obviously I didn't at that
02:38:41 yeah I mean obviously I didn't at that time I didn't have much experience with children but sure um yeah was I so I didn't have any concern myself because I knew that I would be looking after him and I wasn't distracting Bob from his fatherly time with his son I would put that that was
02:38:54 with his son I would put that that was the priority you know he was seeing his son and I was there as well and you understood that to be important to him he gave you that impression well that was important to me and and and my own
02:39:07 was important to me and and and my own morals um you know cuz children have to come first but um yeah yeah I don't know if we talked about it
02:39:13 about it exactly yeah I mean I was a bit surprised I mean it wasn't my choice to park down the road I was a bit surprised and I thought oh surely he should be honest with her yeah you know that seems
02:39:26 honest with her yeah you know that seems the right thing to do but he didn't feel able to do that and as I said my interpretation of that was that she might not want her child to be spending time with another woman but he didn't again that's something you inferred that's not something he told you
02:39:38 that's not something he told you explicitly and it was always left slightly ambiguous the reason why you had to do that yeah I don't know why but yeah it
02:39:46 yeah it was
02:39:48 was um changing topic slightly uh this idea of Lambert drip feeding you information about his activism and the gravity of the actions that he was prepared to
02:40:06 the actions that he was prepared to undertake uh I understand that he built up gradually to the Revelation that he was involved in direct action we're going to get to Green Piece I not to
02:40:17 going to get to Green Piece I not to Green Piece to deham sorry in due course I'm just talking generally yeah um can you help us with how far into the relationship you were when he first revealed that he himself was involved in direct action I mean it was quite earlier Sean I mean when I said drip
02:40:28 earlier Sean I mean when I said drip feed it was over the first couple of months you know but by then it was I was already had over heels in love with him you know
02:40:39 you know um I mean I think if it had told me all of it right at the beginning I would have been really put off I would have been put off but by then as I say in my head we were like on a course to to being together forever kind of
02:40:50 to to being together forever kind of thing potentially obviously you don't know at that stage but in my head that's the way things were kind of in my mind going going yeah um and can you recall sort of what
02:41:06 yeah um and can you recall sort of what he said about the type of direct action that he
02:41:09 that he undertook at what stage well when he first started talking about it not particularly at first it was hunt saing right um I think that's the first thing
02:41:20 right um I think that's the first thing he told me about and what about criminal damage type of direct
02:41:27 action not really I think that was later on how much later
02:41:39 on well when you say criminal I mean for his taxi driving was criminal because he wasn't well we we'll get to that but I mean more that criminal Dam you was quite late like 1988 even um and I think you've you've anticipated the question I was going to ask which was that your
02:41:51 was going to ask which was that your reaction to it because you were so in love with him yeah you just didn't mind you took it all on well I did when he started talking about some of the things later about the criminal activity about
02:42:03 later about the criminal activity about the Crim you know and it was going on as well because it wasn't didn't like it was looking less and less like it was a phase he was going through I did start getting more concerned I did um so I did I was getting more concerned
02:42:19 um so I did I was getting more concerned but I loved him so much that I thought I I just thought it was a phase really that he was going to get over it and I could I could I could help him get over it I you know he would get over it because he was mature he seems like quite immature you know it was a very
02:42:34 quite immature you know it was a very immature things he was doing yeah and to me you hadn't quite grown up yet and like some men are like that they don't grow up till they're quite old yeah yeah so that's if ever um but you know
02:42:45 so that's if ever um but you know whereas more wom tended like you know because they want to have a family maybe and stuff you have to kind of get a bit more sensible earlier on whereas some men just you know especially in those
02:42:56 men just you know especially in those days kind want to be carefree and like bachelor lifestyle and stuff yeah so so when he mentioned it rather than thinking he was like a Sinister figure you thought it was a bit of sort of
02:43:08 you thought it was a bit of sort of silly Immature Immature yeah I mean at first I thought it was all bravado actually I didn't even really think a lot of what he said was serious yeah but yeah gradually
02:43:19 yeah gradually yeah I did get start getting more concerned I did yeah we'll we'll explore that um just briefly what he told you
02:43:30 that um just briefly what he told you about his family yeah I understand from uh your witness statement that he told you very little so while obviously you were opening up to him a lot he didn't reciprocate in that respect
02:43:42 reciprocate in that respect he he did in a sense but he you know he didn't seem to have much of a family right um they were all either dead or or I can't even really remember what about his parents what he said but I
02:43:57 about his parents what he said but I think you know and I think in those days I I hadn't I mean my own mom died when I was 29 so obviously after that I realized what losing a parent means but I think in those days I wouldn't really
02:44:11 I think in those days I wouldn't really understand the the devastation of losing a parent and so like when he didn't really talk about his parents that much I think he might have said one of them had um Alzheimer's or something right so
02:44:23 had um Alzheimer's or something right so wasn't actually dead okay and then there was a relative who lived apparently lived in gr of of sanss right either gr over s or askam because you see that's
02:44:34 over s or askam because you see that's near barwing furnace where I'm from so I remember thinking oh that's near where I'm from but yeah he said either one of those two places askam or grain over
02:44:47 those two places askam or grain over Sans I think it might have been an uncle or his dad there I can't quite remember is this the relative that he would go and visit yeah OCC yeah and you asked to go with him on those visits of course he deterred you from doing that there was always either
02:45:00 from doing that there was always either some excuse like I don't know why that I couldn't go it it was always something like he'd either go at the last minute before I'd had time to get on your leave from work or there was some reason he didn't want me to see this person
02:45:18 didn't want me to see this person because he had Alzheimer's and would you know it'd be boring I mean I don't know there was always some reason I really wanted to obviously yeah I wanted to know his family but there just didn't seem to be much I felt bit sorry for him
02:45:29 seem to be much I felt bit sorry for him actually cuz he just didn't seem to have seem to be on his own and that sort of
02:45:41 seem to be on his own and that sort of fitted him with his me thinking he was a bit immature sure and because he didn't really have proper guidance from his a dad or and and a mother yeah didn't really have proper yeah um did he and did he give you the impression that it it was all very painful for him and something that yeah
02:45:52 painful for him and something that yeah I kind of got the Feeling didn't really want to discuss it that much and yeah I understood I thought maybe yeah but I I
02:46:03 understood I thought maybe yeah but I I should have been more inquisitive than I was I don't know why I wasn't more when I looked back yeah but at the time I just accepted it and did it make you feel sorry for him yeah it did I did feel Sor a bit sorry for him about that and quite protective baby oh yeah
02:46:15 and quite protective baby oh yeah definitely and as I say I thought I could change him you know yeah yeah and like lead him down a better path CU to me it seemed like he' gone down the wrong path he was going down the wrong
02:46:33 wrong path he was going down the wrong path with all this and he and he seemed so capable and I say professional kind of person and and you know seemed to me to have a lot of integrity and and and want to do the right thing and I couldn't I think it just gone down the wrong path that's
02:46:44 just gone down the wrong path that's that's how I saw it yes he and I was hoping that I would get him right back on the right path yeah you could guide him yeah uh going to cover employment
02:46:57 him yeah uh going to cover employment this matter of the taxi you mentioned earlier that he didn't at that first point when he told you about the taxi reveal that he was sharing it with someone else this information came out subsequently
02:47:12 subsequently um and he told you that he was impers he would impersonate the owner of the taxi is that yeah so it wasn't so much
02:47:23 taxi is that yeah so it wasn't so much that it impersonate them but if I mean he wouldn't need to impersonate them but like if ever he got stopped or anything like that he would have to pretend to be this other person um I don't think he had to represent himself to anyone because I
02:47:34 represent himself to anyone because I think he just picked the taxi up from this guy when he wasn't using it and was it black taxi was that the key I don't no no it wasn't a black tax it
02:47:47 no no it wasn't a black tax it definitely wasn't because I remember the main thing he used to do was to go to Heath and I remember him saying that you're not supposed to go to Heathrow like unsolicited as it were there was some rule where like if you get a taxi from Heath that isn't a black taxi
02:47:59 from Heath that isn't a black taxi you're supposed to call it in advance right um and he said he might get into trouble for doing that because that's not what he did he just went there and see see if he could pick anyone up and
02:48:15 see see if he could pick anyone up and the arrangement as you understood it to be was that he would take the taxi at night and the man who owned the taxi would drive it around in the day so it was yeah I mean it wasn't always that it some cursion of the other way around that he do it during the day but predominantly it was when whenever this
02:48:30 predominantly it was when whenever this guy wasn't using it really so it was the other guy who was deciding you know when it was available as it were it was his uh the other guy you say in your witness you can't remember his name Simon says that he
02:48:43 remember his name Simon says that he called him Terry does that ring a bell yeah that does ring a bell um roughly how many evenings a week would Lambert go out driving the taxi when you I think in 1987 it wasn't so
02:48:55 when you I think in 1987 it wasn't so much I think it built up more right so at its so when at the beginning of our relationship he wasn't doing it so much um the taxi but he you know it
02:49:07 much um the taxi but he you know it built up to what so definitely when we were at se point so by the time we were at se point in 1988 I'd say he was doing it about four
02:49:19 1988 I'd say he was doing it about four times a week he was doing it quite a lot and that's on nights so he go out for the rest of the night yeah in the taxi but it wasn't that much earlier on cuz we were spending nights together um so then I think it was like one or two nights the week at
02:49:31 nights the week at first right yeah um okay so you also say in your witness statement that you you do still believe that he was driving a taxi at night
02:49:47 that he was driving a taxi at night because you can't believe that he was going back to his family on all the nights when I don't know that's something under the police now um I just but but essentially it's because he was out I mean as you've just exp I mean now I I think now now I know everything I
02:49:59 I I think now now I know everything I know about him it's anything's possible he could have been do I you know I just can't imagine at the time when I first until very recently especially coming to these
02:50:12 these hearings I didn't really fully realize what he was capable of and how bad it was to be honest and you know even in until just a couple of years ago I still thought there was some genuiness in the
02:50:30 thought there was some genuiness in the relationship you know so it's hard yeah no understand to to Really accept that he it was so bad um in addition to his taxi work he also told you that he did some gardening work I understand which you've
02:50:46 work I understand which you've mentioned um and I also understand from your evidence and also from other evidence that there were times he had to go away he said that he had to go away for longer periods yeah for work I just
02:50:57 for longer periods yeah for work I just want to have a look at three examples of these because it just helps create a
02:51:09 these because it just helps create a chronology also for Lambert's deployment um so the first time appears to be in over the course of your relationship appears to be September 1987 um in respect of this I'd like to bring up please MPS 0737
02:51:26 bring up please MPS 0737 36 page six and this is a letter he sent you miss Harvey from Kings Linn yeah page six
02:51:32 please um you say I think in your witness statement when you think this was about planting trees around a Motorway I think you might be confusing it with a subsequent trip away I that was later on um but I'll just read a bit of this
02:51:43 um but I'll just read a bit of this letter out so it says at the top Kings Lin Tuesday evening dear Belinda this is an interesting part of England flat but full of gentle charm the grounds of the house we're working on haven't been
02:51:55 house we're working on haven't been looked after for maybe 50 years in one way it's a shame that it's getting licked into shape now the house will
02:52:06 licked into shape now the house will become a conference center for business courses so it seems he's claiming it's some sort of landcaping draw yeah absolutely um can we go to page seven please he says here
02:52:16 here that he I'm reading the second second paragraph uh I hope everything's going okay with you I can't wait to see you again I left my diary at home and with it your phone number I keep trying to
02:52:28 it your phone number I keep trying to remember it properly last night I rang two numbers privacy and privacy without success I know I'm close did he ring you to the best of your recollection when he was away on this
02:52:42 was away on this trip no I think no you know there was a bit of a gap there but I mean in those days we didn't have mobile phones people weren't in touch as much letters yeah I hadn't heard from him for a couple of
02:52:53 hadn't heard from him for a couple of weeks or something so yeah and you were missing him a lot a lot yeah wondering what was going on but obviously when I
02:53:05 what was going on but obviously when I got the letter and he said that it it it didn't have my phone number yeah then that kind of made perfect sense yeah yeah yeah um if we can move to page
02:53:10 10
02:53:17 please um I just want to look at the map that he drew
02:53:28 um thank you uh now this is just by way of trying to date this letter you can see on this map that he's one of the places he's marked as the Hammer Smith odion and he's written a date underneath that 12th of September
02:53:42 that 12th of September 87 um I understand that that was a gig that
02:53:44 that you attended but is that correct yes I mean that was one of the things we did a lot together and one of the few
02:53:56 did a lot together and one of the few things that I kind of let him paay for because we went to loads of gigs yeah loads and and you know and I kept all the ticket stubs you know um you know and the letters you know kept it all
02:54:10 and the letters you know kept it all because they were meaningful 100% And um yeah that particular one I have looked at and um yeah it was an RM concert so
02:54:21 at and um yeah it was an RM concert so is it your impression that that he sent this letter before that concert so by putting the date here it was in I mean I would say it was probably just after right
02:54:36 right okay but I'm not absolutely sure I would think it was after because that wouldn't have been a special date to talk about beforehand cuz I mean RM just happened to be one of
02:54:48 cuz I mean RM just happened to be one of my favorite bands at the time you know I was crazy about them um well I ask also because you described this trip to Kings Lin of taking place in the
02:54:57 in the summer but trip September wouldn't necessarily but it may just be that he went and came back I mean I'm not quite sure just I'm not first I'm not sure which what you're referring to when you
02:55:09 which what you're referring to when you say I said it was in the summer that is from your witness statement well you say in your witness statement we can bring it up but I think it's a par paragraph 3.3 to you say that he had to go to
02:55:23 3.3 to you say that he had to go to Kings Lin Norfolk in summer 87 you don't specify so it's just by I'm just trying to pin down the date of the letter just with a little bit more pris yeah it could be I'm guessing it mixed cuz he
02:55:35 could be I'm guessing it mixed cuz he went away in 1988 yeah for even longer period of about four weeks or something um in 1988 and that was in the summer yeah so I mean it wouldn't have been in the summer of 87 so I've got that wrong okay fine so you think this
02:55:47 that wrong okay fine so you think this was i' only just met you know it defin no it would have been that that fits um September 87 so you think it was after the 12 more I it was probably just
02:56:00 the 12 more I it was probably just immediately after okay thank you yeah um you also comment in your witness statement on how lovely it was to get this letter because you felt that it just I mean even just looking at it it's so personal and you know he's drawn a little picture and I mean the rest of
02:56:14 little picture and I mean the rest of the contents of the letter all about how he's missing me and and everything and it and you know it made me laugh because you know he's put all Roman wall to keep Northerners out which is just like a
02:56:27 Northerners out which is just like a joke between us cuz he was a southerner and I was a northerner yeah so it was just you know humor yeah a lot of humor in our
02:56:36 in our relationship and a lot of thought put yeah and he's really you know and it made me smile and I thought oh it showed to me it showed how much he cared yeah even though he hadn't wronged me for a couple of weeks which I was probably a bit miffed about yeah but the letter made up for it yeah yeah and and it's
02:56:51 made up for it yeah yeah and and it's got a lot of his what I thought of as his
02:56:52 his personality I mean I'd lived on the aisle of white as well a couple of times as a child right you know on two of my the occasions move in and stuff cuz my dad had a job doing radar uh down there
02:57:11 dad had a job doing radar uh down there and um and he so that was a nod to that again it shows that he knew that that was meaning for that significant absolutely and this Old lir Line full of mystic energy that's a bit of a joke between us cuz he was quite sort of more of a hippie and things like that and
02:57:23 of a hippie and things like that and into Van Morrison he was like a dreamer you know yeah um yeah whereas I took things a bit more seriously yeah than he did so it was it was just a joke yeah
02:57:35 did so it was it was just a joke yeah yeah but it was it made you very happy to get it it did um if we look at the next time it seems he went away for work purportedly uh around this was around March April 1988
02:57:51 um now the document suggest that for an extended period of time around this those dates March and April he claimed
02:58:03 those dates March and April he claimed to have gone away planting trees by that was more the planting trees in the M way can we please bring up uh ucpi 37425 sir that's tab three in your
02:58:18 37425 sir that's tab three in your supplemental bundle apologies I think I forgot to mention the bundle reference for the previous one um if we could bring that up
02:58:25 please uh page two please this is actually a letter exhibited by Helen steel okay uh if we look on this page he
02:58:36 look on this page he says it's you can see that the it's addressed he claims to be writing it from elely in Cambridge and he says how are you dear Helen how are you I hope
02:58:47 are you dear Helen how are you I hope you're keeping well and enjoying these windy spring days well it's especially windy up here you know it's very flat and the East Winds whip in from the wash across the north at broads that's enough geography for lettera and as a
02:58:58 geography for lettera and as a consequence I'm not sure that we're planting these trees Popa Beach and
02:59:10 planting these trees Popa Beach and Leland and then he talks about 16 of us planting them by the motorway
02:59:20 um do you recall this work trip then do you remember going away on this occasion yeah
02:59:21 yeah [Music]
02:59:26 [Music] and can you recall roughly how long he was away on this particular trip yeah I think I think that was that was one I was sort of thinking might have been in the summer but yeah I can
02:59:39 have been in the summer but yeah I can see that was earlier um um I understand this
02:59:43 this letter I I sorry if we could just go back to page one please I think the postmark shows that it was posted on the 30th of March March yeah so it would have been late March and he mentions Easter yeah so yeah that's that's yeah
02:59:54 Easter yeah so yeah that's that's yeah yeah so sorry I missed what you said how long did you do you think I think it was it was at least four weeks right potentially six but I don't think it was as long as that and you didn't see him at all in that
03:00:06 at all in that period I think it could only been for yeah I remember because I've you know I've written stuff in my diary about really missing him and yeah and I think that was around the time I tried to buy a hat a flat right
03:00:20 time I tried to buy a hat a flat right while he was away yeah yeah we'll come to that um the third time he appears to do this is summer 1988 which you comment on because he he subsequently said this is when he was away with his
03:00:35 is when he was away with his family um okay well the thing is that might not have been four to six week that that the summer one was the longer one the summer one was the longer one so
03:00:46 one the summer one was the longer one so the Easter I don't know I wouldn't think it was more than a couple of weeks but fine yeah so it's the summer one you think that was the very long one from June 1988 and he you say in your
03:00:58 from June 1988 and he you say in your witness statement he told you he had to go away for a month um you can't about June the June yes sorry yeah this is June
03:00:59 June 1988
03:01:01 1988 um and you remember this well because you missed him so much oh yeah when he was really missed him um did you keep in contact with him at all on that
03:01:13 contact with him at all on that trip yeah I think phone calls right I don't seem to have any letters from then have I or no you haven't exhibited a letter no I think yeah I
03:01:26 a letter no I think yeah I mean I mean my expectation I didn't think anything had finished or anything like that I was so yeah I'm sure the odd phone call probably I mean I was busy at work as well right and we didn't have
03:01:38 work as well right and we didn't have mobile phones in those days so you don't do WhatsApp and things like that yeah so you kind of don't really in those days you didn't
03:01:51 you didn't really wasn't this wasn't unusual to not speak to someone for a week or two in a way you didn't have the same expectations of contact we have no but I'm sure I had the odd phone call because I mean if you look at that previous letter he was making an excuse of reasons why he didn't have my
03:02:02 of reasons why he didn't have my telephone and he hadn't pH me for two weeks yeah so you know obviously it was phing me yeah certainly not every night but you know enough for me to feel I
03:02:14 but you know enough for me to feel I mean there might have been issues where there was no phone box or something like that
03:02:20 that you know he might have said oh you know I'm not near a phone box CU in the middle of nowhere isn't he working and stuff yeah and you trusted him you had 100% yeah I mean i' never ever disbelieved anything he said um I've
03:02:33 disbelieved anything he said um I've touched upon it but you and your witness statement referred to a passage from his 2013 interview in which he said that
03:02:45 2013 interview in which he said that this time he was supposedly away working he was actually away with his family on a summer
03:02:46 a summer holiday um I mean I'm sorry to ask a difficult question but how did you feel when you read
03:02:57 when you read that well it's just so betray so just so so stupid and naive like how could I fallen for it how could I've been so stupid and just you completely
03:03:16 completely deceived and you know it was even worse so hang on when you're talking about this is summer 1988 oh at that time before I knew he was a police yeah no no sorry how you knew when you found cuz you found out subsequently you
03:03:29 found cuz you found out subsequently you found out from reading his after I found out he was a policeman the my my men thought yeah the Betrayal and also how it's just unfathomable how somebody could have been spending all
03:03:43 somebody could have been spending all that money on somebody to be in my life like he was at work when he was seeing me I was just shocked yeah um just shocked you know and as I say I've always been a public servant myself and
03:03:56 always been a public servant myself and paying my taxes and that's what they're using it for you know I I just I just couldn't understand it at all and then that's apart from the you know the personal betrayal like if somebody say
03:04:08 personal betrayal like if somebody say you were seeing somebody and it turned out they were married you know that's one thing that's bad enough in itself
03:04:19 one thing that's bad enough in itself yeah but the fact that I just couldn't it's just so hard to to understand I just couldn't understand it I just couldn't work it out at all and and as I say I felt how stupid was I
03:04:29 I um well you trusted him well I I just don't know I just I mean yeah so when I first found out until more recent you know it's taken quite a long time to
03:04:42 know it's taken quite a long time to come to terms with it even up to now the public inquiry hearing all new things you know oh and this is in common with a lot of the other women that you know at first we all thought oh well
03:04:56 know at first we all thought oh well they did love us really you know it was a genuine
03:04:58 a genuine relationship you know it was genuine they must they loved you know we loved each other you know for all of us it was very special relationships and then you know it was a kind of gradual realization
03:05:16 realization well how they couldn't have done to do all that to us to be so you know and then I started thinking it was cruel uh
03:05:18 cruel uh um and
03:05:21 um and manipulative and like where's the Integrity how I just don't I just can't understand it even now I just can't understand it
03:05:32 understand it how yeah
03:05:40 how yeah um quickly I just want to have a look at other illegal activity just before we look at deams that he told you that Lambert told you he was involved in are you refer in your witness statement Miss Harvey to an incident uh that he recounted about apparently getting
03:05:53 recounted about apparently getting stopped in the taxi with a boot full of stolen hair dryers um on his account did he know that the boot was full of stolen hair dryers before he was stopped by the
03:06:07 police don't think he did and he said he had to go to court and pretend to be Terry yeah did he tell you any more about that like what happened at court did he did Terry get
03:06:28 happened at court did he did Terry get convicted I think he got I think yeah I think he did tell me I mean it's as I say described I think from what I'm recalling I might be wrong that he wasn't aware the hair dryers were in the boot right and that he got stopped and then the police who he was stopped by yeah opened the boot and
03:06:43 stopped by yeah opened the boot and there was all these hair dryers in there right that were stolen hair dryers turned out stolen hair dryers and then he said that he had no choice but to to go to cour and to pretend to be this guy and I think he he's told me that he did
03:06:54 and I think he he's told me that he did discuss it with this guy Terry yeah and that they decided they had to go through with it because otherwise it had come out that he'd been driving the taxi
03:07:08 out that he'd been driving the taxi right illegally yeah and and Terry get into trouble as well for that cuz was his
03:07:12 his license so yeah I think um what happened was he got a fine from what I can remember so like he didn't go to prison or anything which is you wouldn't really I wouldn't thought for Stu well I don't know but um went to court and did
03:07:25 know but um went to court and did Lambert when he told you the story did he seem troubled by it or was bit a little bit I mean I was obviously very concerned that he'd done that but I did understand his St you know I sort of
03:07:36 understand his St you know I sort of could see why he did it yeah yeah so I could understand it but I thought it was really stupid but I could understand why he he'd felt he needed to do that but I
03:07:51 he he'd felt he needed to do that but I thought you know again that's another of the things where I started getting you know feeling more and more uncomfortable about what he was doing yeah to it just got more and more bizarre you know I
03:08:04 got more and more bizarre you know I mean that is pretty bizarre yeah and can you remember that was in 1988 can you remember that was in 88 yeah so it's later on a little bit later relationship yeah it is um you mentioned also that he told you about uh smashing butcher
03:08:17 told you about uh smashing butcher Windows yes so I think that must have been a
03:08:21 been a ier can you remember what he said about that yeah he was talking about him and his friend activist friends yeah who I don't know who they were though
03:08:33 don't know who they were though obviously I've heard somebody's evidence um
03:08:35 um here
03:08:38 here um so yeah he told me that he told me about that that was one of the things that they got up to right did he talk about any specific inst es or was it more a general I got the impression it
03:08:50 more a general I got the impression it was more than one incident right it had more than once maybe three right um and did he give you the impression that he'd got away with it that it oh yeah right
03:09:09 got away with it that it oh yeah right that is the impression I got but I just thought just thought it sounded like vandalism really I just I couldn't understand it you know I didn't understand why he would think that that was an okay thing to do but he obviously did he gave you the impression he thought it was yeah he thought he did seem to think it was justified did he
03:09:20 seem to think it was justified did he seem proud of it not especially I don't think no I think he was he seemed a bit uncomfortable with it actually um I felt
03:09:31 uncomfortable with it actually um I felt that's the impression he gave maybe just because he wanted me to think that obviously I don't know if he was what what was
03:09:35 what was happening um that it didn't seem to be his favorite Pas time put it that way of his activism it was one of his less favorite things that so so did you give the impression that he was doing it slightly unwillingly that he sort of
03:09:50 slightly unwillingly that he sort of being yeah maybe with his I I got the impression maybe to impr impress his friends right you know one of his things to impress and to show like what a what a great activist he was you know what a
03:10:04 a great activist he was you know what a yeah yeah great guy to burnish his great yeah credentials exactly with his friends yeah um if we just look now miss Harvey at Bob's sort of ability or
03:10:18 Harvey at Bob's sort of ability or whether he had the ability to influence Inspire others uh you say in your witness statement from what you saw of Lambert's interaction with activist you dispute
03:10:32 dispute his repudiation of the fact that he was an agent
03:10:36 an agent provocator is that right sorry say that okay sorry that was a very garbled sentence you you make the point in your statement that Lambert from what you saw was an influential figure amongst the ACT
03:10:52 ACT so very much um and what gave you that impression yes so I can think for example one example particularly I mean it was all the time but yeah that time when we went to that London Green Peace
03:11:04 when we went to that London Green Peace meeting the one the one one I went to Y and after the meeting had finished um people were sort of chatting
03:11:15 finished um people were sort of chatting yeah and you know one of the younger one of the young activists had said something like oh you know people anyone who eats meat deserves to be murdered or something or killed or something and I was like really shocked that you know and I
03:11:27 really shocked that you know and I thought was God this is why I don't go
03:11:36 thought was God this is why I don't go want to go to any of these meetings what it's absolutely ridiculous but like Bob didn't seem to react like I would have expected but you know like he kind of made people want to impress him if you know what I mean I mean I thought that I didn't think that person meant that for
03:11:51 didn't think that person meant that for a minute didn't think for a minute they meant it um because it's a crazy thing to think and I just didn't think they meant it but it was like this person was trying to impress him right why don't mean they were trying to impress him
03:12:03 mean they were trying to impress him with and like Bob was kind of standing there and that's how it felt that everyone and and also when we walked into the
03:12:11 into the meeting this particular meeting the same meeting everyone kind of looked up and sort of stopped what they were doing you know Bob you know and they all like looked at him like sort of with dreamy eyes kind of thing I mean it was maybe just my impression but that's that's
03:12:23 just my impression but that's that's what it seemed like to me that was your impression that he was like very much oh this is who we've been waiting for to arrive kind of thing that's interesting
03:12:39 arrive kind of thing that's interesting and did he what sort of a role in the I understand it wasn't you you came away through you know the meeting had been going on for a little while but what sort of a role did he he take on at that meeting if any when you ared um I think he did speak but as I say he didn't say
03:12:53 he did speak but as I say he didn't say that M he didn't say that much really he wasn't we'd arrived kind of at the end so I think someone was already speaking yeah um but my main impression was that everyone sort of looked up and you know oh it was more a body language thing
03:13:05 oh it was more a body language thing that you know Bob's a right Bob's here and um they all seemed and and plus he seemed you know very impressive figure
03:13:17 seemed you know very impressive figure amongst the group what what do you mean by
03:13:18 by that well he was yeah a real leader a leader um like leadership kind of thing you know
03:13:32 leadership kind of thing you know everyone thought he was great and he was very personable yeah he laughed and smiled everyone looked at him um looked up to him I'd say people you got the Feeling people looked up to him and wanted to impress him that's
03:13:44 him and wanted to impress him that's that's the impression I got you talk about his confidence yeah as well compared to some of the activists with whom he Associated so did he give the impression of being a very confident
03:13:56 impression of being a very confident self yeah and like he wasn't as um like a lot of the people there were like very serious and sort quite quiet but very
03:14:08 serious and sort quite quiet but very serious you know they didn't want to go and have a laugh yeah whereas he could combine the two things you know he seemed to be able to be relaxed and still passionate about the ca yeah right and so that was a very winning
03:14:23 and so that was a very winning combination yeah yeah yeah um was he very
03:14:24 very articulate good at expressing himself
03:14:38 articulate good at expressing himself communicating yeah um yeah he was he was very much but as I say I I don't think he sa much at that meeting because it was already in full swing as someone else was
03:14:41 else was speaking and apart from potentially that Manchester event I don't remember him seeing him speak um but only in social situations um so and you noticed in
03:14:54 situations um so and you noticed in social situations that people yeah like hanging onto his every word and things like that um yeah he was a nice guy he seemed charming and interesting and well and you say also that my
03:15:06 and well and you say also that my understanding of your evidence is that there was a sort of reflected glory for you that because you were in a
03:15:17 you that because you were in a relationship with him people treated the activists with you socialized treated you with respect is that fair enough potentially I mean I only saw them in social situations but yeah that is fair enough yeah I mean I'd like to think I
03:15:28 enough yeah I mean I'd like to think I was you know interested in my own right yeah um but as far as I definitely wasn't when I'm saying I definitely wasn't an activist but you know and like sometimes like say people who are
03:15:39 sometimes like say people who are activists might not really sort of socialize with people who aren't I don't really know I'm making assumptions now yeah um but because I was Bob's girlfriend I was kind of a yeah in the
03:15:54 girlfriend I was kind of a yeah in the crowd as it were yeah welcomed him with yeah um Open Arms yeah sort of at the beginning but obviously I'd get to know that you know i' be there in my own right obviously in social situations I was very sociable and um
03:16:09 situations I was very sociable and um enjoyed being with other people and I was interested in other people and listening to them and things um sir I'm
03:16:21 listening to them and things um sir I'm about to move on to Deb I'm wondering if it's probably better to Break um a little bit earlier how long approximately do you think you're going to be
03:16:26 to be um
03:16:29 um well the thing is it's quite a lot you
03:16:40 well the thing is it's quite a lot you talking in overall or just deim just the Deon I think that would require 20 minutes I mean it's quite hard to actually
03:16:51 mean it's quite hard to actually demarcate exactly what deums means but I mean the immediate event I could do in about 20 minutes I well I think that is
03:17:05 about 20 minutes I well I think that is probably better dealt with after a break so we'll um resume at 10 to 2 then that all right with you yeah that's perfect thank
03:17:15 you
03:17:45 e e