Afternoon session featuring Belinda Harvey's detailed testimony about her relationship with Bob Lambert, his knowledge of and involvement in the Debenham's incendiary device attacks, their relationship dynamics, and the devastating impact of discovering his true identity.
00:23:57 e e
00:24:56 that
00:25:01 as at the beginning of every lengthy session of uh oral evidence I must remind everybody about the rules the uh hearings are being broadcast after a 10-minute delay those with electronic
00:25:12 10-minute delay those with electronic devices may use them to report to the outside world what they have seen and heard in the hearing room but only 10 minutes after the event that they describing they may not use those
00:25:31 describing they may not use those devices for recording or photography yes Miss Harvey um I'd like to talk now about
00:25:37 about deams um in paragraph 221 of his inquiry witness statement Lambert denies discussing the deams IID attacks with you which took place on the 11th and
00:25:48 you which took place on the 11th and 12th of July he denies discussing them with you before they happened on the basis that he says he didn't know they were going to happen in your evidence in your witness statement you say that he in fact
00:26:04 statement you say that he in fact discussed the plans with you on several occasions before they happened is that correct uh yes it is to the best of your recollection Miss Harvey when did he first around what
00:26:15 Harvey when did he first around what time did he first mention the plan to launch these attacks um maybe about four four weeks before okay so early June 1987 yeah
00:26:26 before okay so early June 1987 yeah maybe a little less than that I'm not not sure I can't remember exactly but around that time yeah so it was quite
00:26:38 around that time yeah so it was quite early on in your relationship then yeah um I mean yeah exactly when the relationship started is yeah I'm not exactly sure yeah um where were you when he first told you about the plan yeah I
00:26:53 he first told you about the plan yeah I think at my house in mport Road were you in a in your bedroom yeah and it was just the two of you yeah
00:27:02 you yeah what did he tell you about the plan
00:27:13 plan um well I think first of all he talk in general terms about it um and what did he say in general terms well he I remember him talking
00:27:24 remember him talking about how they built how they made an incendiary device right um and
00:27:25 and obviously and and what they were planning to do when you said how they built the incendiary device did he give the impression that he was involved in building the incendiary devices no not
00:27:40 building the incendiary devices no not really no he gave me the impression that it wasn't him personally that were building them but he was certainly part of the planning of it okay and did he tell you who was involved in the plan um yeah he did um I know we have to be
00:27:53 yeah he did um I know we have to be careful with names but did he tell you Jeff sheeper was involved in the plan yeah and he tell you Andrew Clark in the plan and he told you that he was involved in the plan yes he did did he
00:28:08 involved in the plan yes he did did he say that Helen steel was involved in the plan no did he say that Paul grait was involved in the plan no
00:28:10 no um so you said that he talked about making the devices was this when he was talking in general terms about the plan yeah just to go back a bit yeah um I
00:28:33 yeah just to go back a bit yeah um I think he might have he did say something about Paul grait being involved in the initial stages like previously before before it actually happened yeah but before yeah but by the time he talked to me about it that was in the past kind of thing whatever you
00:28:45 in the past kind of thing whatever you know my understanding I I I don't know I can't sorry what was in the past you mean Paul grait is no longer involved that I can't remember exactly but I I do remember you know him I don't know if I even knew Paul grabit then I'm
00:29:00 know if I even knew Paul grabit then I'm not sure right well I didn't really know I didn't know Andre or Jeff either sure um and Paul grow was one of the first people he introduced me to right um but as I say this was quite early on um it was always Jeff and Andrew and
00:29:18 on um it was always Jeff and Andrew and and and him um um but also he I think he might have at one point I think potentially it was after right he told me that one person had dropped out
00:29:36 had dropped out right um which is where he may have mentioned Paul right understood
00:29:48 understood um so he gave you the impression that he dropped out of the plan on the day of the plan was that what he said
00:29:50 said um he gave me the impression and as I say I can't remember if it was before or after now I mean it was sort of fit that it was after but I I can't remember exactly what happened before and after
00:30:01 exactly what happened before and after before I just remember him talking about him and and Jeff and Andrew right um but there was something about there was
00:30:13 there was something about there was something about that they him and Jeff and Andrew thought that Paul was like
00:30:27 and Andrew thought that Paul was like potentially some kind of police Informer okay maybe that they all suspected that he so yeah he did say that he was involved in it at stage potentially before but you think that the the what he said about
00:30:40 think that the the what he said about him being a police informa was after the attacks potentially right yeah um going back to what he told you before the attacks yeah what did he did he tell you what the purpose of the plan was yeah I mean first of all he did tell
00:30:55 was yeah I mean first of all he did tell me that there were other people involved in the
00:30:56 in the planning um just asked me that question again well what was the target of the plan I'll put it that way yeah he said that um because obviously when he told me I I mean I
00:31:07 obviously when he told me I I mean I didn't want to even hear about it but he used to talk about it a lot like I'd say at least four four occasions before it
00:31:18 at least four four occasions before it happened yeah um and he said obviously I was really really worried about it and but to be honest I didn't really take it very seriously I thought I didn't really think he actually meant he was going to
00:31:35 think he actually meant he was going to do it really I know that sounds strange now but it's only with hindsight that yeah yeah um I didn't really take it seriously I've always felt you know what I feel like sort of a bit of guilt and shame that I didn't do anything tell
00:31:46 shame that I didn't do anything tell anyone that I could have potentially stopped it but you know so that's I've sort of got over that now because I want to tell the truth yeah um
00:31:58 to tell the truth yeah um but yeah so did he did he tell you who they were planning to Target with these
00:32:08 they were planning to Target with these devices yeah and I want I did want so I did ask you know I was shocked that he could even consider such a thing yeah and that it was really dangerous but just going back a little bit what what
00:32:19 just going back a little bit what what had he told you he was going to do what was the thing right so the plan was um that they were going to set off these incendiary devices but the that they weren't designed to set on fire yeah that they were designed to let off smoke right and that that would set off the
00:32:34 right and that that would set off the sprinklers yeah and then that would um destroy the fur coats um so that they couldn't be sold yeah and um that you know no he he was very
00:32:43 very insistent that no nobody would be put into any danger that there wasn't any any possibility of it going wrong yeah and starting an actual
00:32:55 and starting an actual fire um you know it was very insistent that that wasn't going to happen and you know and I was very worried about about hearing this and and said to him you know you what about security
00:33:09 him you know you what about security guards or what if something goes wrong you know you could somebody could get hurt and also you know I would never I mean to even do such it's just a terrible you know it's like vandalism again even you know even though I don't
00:33:26 again even you know even though I don't agree with the F tread in the slightest I would never think that it was an appropriate thing to do um and I think I think I was so troubled by it
00:33:37 think I think I was so troubled by it that you know rightly or wrongly I kind of involved my friend Simon in it because I wanted to know what he thought as well what so you talk to Simon about it no I didn't talk to Simon about it
00:33:54 it no I didn't talk to Simon about it myself yeah but I kind of I think I felt like Bob wants to talk to somebody else about it as well and I thought Simon might be able to swayed him as well yeah um so I didn't want to just I shouldn't you know I feel bad that I involved that anyway you know
00:34:08 that I involved that anyway you know Simon Were You There When Bob talked to Simon about it no cuz I was never quite sure if he had but but Simon I kind of wanted yeah yeah yeah did Bob tell you
00:34:23 wanted yeah yeah yeah did Bob tell you did Lambert tell you in advance of the attacks that deams was the target oh yeah he did right but did he tell you which specific deham stores yeah I mean at the time I wouldn't have remembered the details but he told me that there
00:34:35 the details but he told me that there was I think he said I think he said that there were four right um deams yeah places um but I was a bit mixed up about
00:34:46 places um but I was a bit mixed up about it I can't my recollection of it yeah is not that there was four people involved that there were three and that maybe one of them was going to do two places but yeah it's a long time ago so no understood um did he tell you how many
00:34:59 understood um did he tell you how many devic they were planning on putting in each of the stores yeah one device my understanding did he tell you where they were planning on putting the devices in the stores yeah I
00:35:11 yeah I mean my
00:35:16 mean my recollection and I don't know if if if this is right but my recollection is quite specific so he must have said this to me at some point CU I've no reason to think it otherwise he said something about
00:35:30 about um putting them in um the sopers in the in the F
00:35:33 in the F Department um I don't know if it was in the same location in all of them right but sorry is that where he said he was planning to yeah I think so but this was probably before so I don't know if
00:35:50 probably before so I don't know if that's what actually they decided on in the end right um but he said down the back or the side of the sofa okay um that was like the waiting area where people were trying on the fur coat
00:35:58 coat and um just for the avoidance of doubt
00:36:06 and um just for the avoidance of doubt he was clear that he was going to be one of the people planting the devices 100% he was one of the people yeah him the three of them right but you know he was you know well involved he wasn't like a doing what the other two wanted or anything like that it was kind of an equal thing that was the impression the
00:36:22 equal thing that was the impression the least yeah definitely right from the way he spoke about it that was the impression yeah it was yeah it was something he wanted to do yeah um did he tell you when precisely they
00:36:34 um did he tell you when precisely they were planning to do it no he didn't no he didn't I didn't but what happened was you know there was one night when we were just going to bed um and from my
00:36:45 were just going to bed um and from my memory it was like 11 or 12:00 yeah at night and suddenly he said as I was
00:36:55 night and suddenly he said as I was actually getting into bed he said no I'm I'm going off now to do this thing so can I ask you to stop you there miss Harvey was that to the best of your recollection given that we know that the devices were planted on Saturday the 11th of
00:37:03 11th of July was this do you think this was Saturday the 11th of July or FR you think it was that I do think it was that well I don't know what time of day was
00:37:14 well I don't know what time of day was it that there were um I think they were planted some I'm not entirely sure the exact time but sometime I think in the afternoon on Saturday of 11 but they didn't that means Friday okay so it's
00:37:26 didn't that means Friday okay so it's Friday the 10th yeah but I mean I didn't know if they were going to do it that night or the next night or whatever but sorry I interrupted you so what happened so he suddenly said on the Friday night yeah he said that that he said he's
00:37:39 yeah he said that that he said he's going to go off and do it now and that um he said he was going to go and meet Jeff and Andrew in a park and that they were going to have get all the devices I mean I
00:37:57 to have get all the devices I mean I assume one of the others had the devices not him yeah that was the impression I got yeah and that they were going to meet in this park and then that they
00:38:08 meet in this park and then that they were going to go their separate ways and plant them in wherever they were going you know
00:38:08 you know separate so yeah I mean you can't I don't know how they were going to get that I mean I didn't I was just a bit taken up very shocked um what time I
00:38:19 taken up very shocked um what time I felt really bad you know going to sleep and oh my you know even then I didn't really think he was going to do it yeah to be honest what time of night was that Miss Ry yeah it was like 11 about 11:00
00:38:33 Miss Ry yeah it was like 11 about 11:00 at night did you try and tell him not to do it at that stage well I would like to think I did but but his did he seem like his mom was made up oh yeah yeah and he sort of said he was going to do it put his coat off
00:38:49 he was going to do it put his coat off and went right and what was his demeanor did he
00:38:50 did he seem calm was he agitated it seems fairly calm I would say but so quite serious
00:39:08 yeah what did he say to you did he tell you to keep it a secret when he oh yeah I mean that started before you know when he first started telling me about it yeah cuz I remember as I said him talking about how these incendiary
00:39:25 talking about how these incendiary devices were made yeah and he had like I remember in the living room um
00:39:32 room um and this was like on an occasion when he didn't say that he was personally going to do it this was you know when he was just talking generally about incendiary devices right so I think it might have been before he said he was personally
00:39:43 been before he said he was personally going to do it so like maybe four weeks before or something you know before he told me he was going to do it and Jeff and
00:39:48 and Andrew you know he's wearing these instructions about you had these Bits of Paper and I was just like what on Earth is this you know why would I want to know this stuff right but like he was
00:40:01 know this stuff right but like he was seemed determined to tell me it all yeah and I just didn't want to hear it or know anything about it um and he said you know these are the instructions on how to do the incend device I they were from The anist cookbook I think well
00:40:14 from The anist cookbook I think well that's my memory but um I don't know if it was from The anist cookbook or not it was just some loose sheets of paper about three sheets of paper and he actually showed me it and I'm like what
00:40:25 actually showed me it and I'm like what why would I want to know about this what was his demeanor when he did that was he
00:40:37 was his demeanor when he did that was he sort of exp J J I'd say right yeah um so he told you to keep it a secret why did he give you a reason for I mean it might
00:40:49 he give you a reason for I mean it might seem like a stupid question but did tell you why he wanted to yeah so the main thing he wanted to keep a secret was that it was him and Jeff and Andrew right and he told me on several occasions don't tell Jeff and Andrew I've told you yeah and actually I didn't really know Jeff and Andrew but
00:41:02 really know Jeff and Andrew but obviously I may come across them um you know in these regular times I went to the molten hops the PO right which is where we always used to go and Simon we always went after work yeah and King's cross yeah yeah um so like and he said
00:41:16 cross yeah yeah um so like and he said it to me loads of times oh don't don't tell Jeff don't tell anybody that they'd really God they'd be really you know he'd laugh about it say oh they'd be really they'd be really annoyed with
00:41:27 really they'd be really annoyed with with me you know and I took that to be that you know instead of thinking what I should have thought yeah I thought wow he really loves me you know he's
00:41:40 he really loves me you know he's prepared to share yeah this terrible thing yeah that he's going to do with me you know and and I couldn't believe he like cuz surely if you're going to do something like that you
00:41:52 going to do something like that you don't go telling people like before you even do it and so I just took it wrongly yeah that he loved me and like when I've reflected back I even wonder if he wanted me to tell someone like
00:42:03 if he wanted me to tell someone like maybe he didn't want to do it really um you know with the remembering what I've said is that I didn't really think he was Ser you know properly think he
00:42:17 he was Ser you know properly think he was serious about it you know it could it's just beyond comprehension really that somebody Your Love could consider doing something like that so well you
00:42:28 doing something like that so well you anticipated my next question cuz I was going to say in retrospect why do you think he told you did he tell you at the time why he was telling
00:42:41 time why he was telling you no but I took it to be because we were so close he told me absolutely everything um yeah and I think it's only as I say looking back that I feel as though maybe he want CU he told me he wanted me to
00:42:59 he want CU he told me he wanted me to tell someone cuz he he told me so many times there so much details that I didn't want to hear yeah yeah the
00:43:07 yeah yeah um yeah he told you more than you wanted to know did did you get the sense at all that he wanted to unburden himself yeah because once he said to me just on one
00:43:18 me just on one occasion cuz obviously I tried to dissuade
00:43:23 dissuade him and then he said to me oh I can't I me he said you know his very words I remember he said oh I can't I'm in it to too
00:43:32 too deep that's what he said yeah um yeah so like
00:43:43 um yeah so like that's I to say in retrospect like I'm such stupidly you know loyal and believe you know fully you know like there's no way I would ever break somebody's confidence like that I loved like that yeah even
00:43:55 like that I loved like that yeah even though it was so wrong yeah even though I thought it was so wrong
00:44:01 the you know I know what a lot of Integrity I have got and I don't know how he would expect me to have that amount of integrity and not even tell my best friend I didn't even
00:44:12 even tell my best friend I didn't even talk to Simon about it though as I say I did kind
00:44:18 did kind of try and direct Simon them to discuss it um to get Simon's you know hoping Simon would be able to persuade him not to do it and what did Simon make of it I mean was Simon well to be honest me and
00:44:32 mean was Simon well to be honest me and Simon didn't talk about it till we found out that um he was a policeman um so that was many years later um we never really because again my loyalty was you know at that time I
00:44:49 my loyalty was you know at that time I thought he'd gone on the run because of it yeah and also that um you know Jeff and Andrew had gone to prison and you know he could go to prison as well he you know yeah so that's why by you kep and I wished I didn't know about it as
00:45:01 and I wished I didn't know about it as well so I didn't want to know about it so I kind of blanked it out yeah yeah yeah and and no I didn't talk to Simon about it explicitly cuz and he didn't talk to me
00:45:14 talk to me either um Miss Harvey you say in your witness statement that you think you were under the impression there were between 10 and 12 people who knew something about it um did you I mean I assume you gleaned
00:45:37 um did you I mean I assume you gleaned that from things that Lambert told yeah I'm not sure where I said that but thinking back yeah um I thought there was at least five people right
00:45:51 was at least five people right but I'm not sure about the 10 people I'm not sure exactly where I said that it's in your witness statement that could have been
00:45:52 have been something from after cuz I remember you know Simon did talk to me about this meeting that was at our house once and that was 10 about 10 people right okay and you know Simon was
00:46:05 right okay and you know Simon was convinced afterwards when we did talk about it totally convinced that that was a meeting about that which I wasn't I
00:46:18 a meeting about that which I wasn't I didn't really think it necessarily was I thought it was just yeah something else or you know yeah well so that's where the 10 or 12 has probably come into my head fine okay that makes sense but what he actually said to me before hand and immediately after and
00:46:29 hand and immediately after and afterwards really was that there was you know four five six people something like that but but the main thing the the people who eventually decided to do it was three people him
00:46:46 decided to do it was three people him Jeff yeah shepher absolutely him yeah Jeff and
00:46:47 Jeff and Andrew um we'll move on now to the actual attacks in the aftermath yeah um
00:46:59 well sorry actually just before I move on in in terms of what he told you before the attacks did you have any reason to doubt the truth of what he was telling you not at all and one of the
00:47:12 telling you not at all and one of the reasons for that is because he did talk about on a number of occasions what he said was very
00:47:24 said was very consistent it didn't sort of change yeah it was always consistent about you know with and it was always Jeff and Andrew yeah and the details of the plan were they
00:47:27 they consistent yeah I mean the details of the plan weren't discussed that many times right mainly only you know about the devices yeah that wasn't really disgust well apart from when I tried to
00:47:38 disgust well apart from when I tried to disuade him and he insisted that it was only going to let off smoke yeah um did you talk about the sprinkler system yeah yeah yeah that's the whole point was to set off the sprinklers Not to cause a
00:47:51 set off the sprinklers Not to cause a fire but yeah we didn't talk about that that many times right but what he did talk about a lot was that him and Jeff and Andrew were going to do this um
00:48:01 um yeah now after the attack so they took place on the 11th and 12th of July the 12th of July was the
00:48:15 12th of July was the Sunday um I understand that you were at marjerie Park Road on the night of the attack so the Saturday night the 11th yes I can more remember the Friday night because that's when he that's when he went off and I didn't know it was going
00:48:27 went off and I didn't know it was going to be on the Saturday yeah so remember I didn't sleep that well that night cuz you know I was worried about it and what should I do and does he really is he really going to do this thing and did he mean it and what what's going on and I
00:48:41 mean it and what what's going on and I remember you know I've always listened to Radio 4 quite a lot and I remember like in the early hours and this would be Saturday morning so now I know it wasn't then that it happened yeah you
00:48:53 wasn't then that it happened yeah you know I was listening to radio 4 to see if he actually meant it and I thought surely if had' done it and I thought it was overnight so I didn't realize it was the next day until you've said it now actually
00:49:04 actually um well it was it was overnight they planted them on the Saturday the 11th and then I think what I thought from
00:49:15 and then I think what I thought from what Paul said that it was during the when the opening hours but but at the time I thought they were going off from the park in the middle of the night to plant them which was a bit yeah not logical cu the stores w't be open would they no but I just
00:49:28 open would they no but I just remember that night after he left and it's not very logical but that you know listening to the news thinking surely if he really did was going to do it CU I I
00:49:43 he really did was going to do it CU I I still didn't really believe he was going to do it so how did you find out that the attacks had taken place um the only way I found out was he told me that it happened so I didn't
00:49:55 told me that it happened so I didn't hear anything on the news or anything from anyone else it's just that subsequently I think I didn't see him for a few days or something can you remember when you did see him next say so you saw him on the Friday night yeah roughly when did you see him there I said it's maybe
00:50:10 you see him there I said it's maybe about six days later something like that had you had any contact with him in those intervening days well no to be honest I was like so shocked and upset by it that I can't remember
00:50:22 remember but no he was kind of not there for a few days and I didn't really want to get in touch with him because yeah I was so shocked
00:50:34 shocked and I don't know so did he come over to marjerie Park Road to the best of your collection is that when you saw him next I can't remember exactly where I saw him next but we suddenly resumed
00:50:49 saw him next but we suddenly resumed back from where we were before right and like really I didn't want to know about it um and what did he tell you about he told me that they'd done it right so he told me that they had done it
00:51:05 told me that they had done it yeah and yeah at first I didn't remember this but after I heard Paul Graphics evidence I remembered that it said to me that one of them didn't go off that's what I remember saying him saying but I didn't get the impression it was one that Paul
00:51:19 get the impression it was one that Paul was involved right I just remembered him saying that one didn't go off
00:51:24 off um and that it you know as I say he told me
00:51:34 either after or before I did I really didn't know that Paul was involved in it um but that Paul had dropped out yeah
00:51:37 out yeah that's all I can remember and did he tell you who had
00:51:52 remember and did he tell you who had planted which device and which store no cuz I didn't want to know and even now I'm not 100% sure um it was like many years later I think when when it all came out H that there was in the guardian there was a picture of one of the stores had burnt down and and that was the first I actually
00:52:04 and that was the first I actually knew that that one of the stores had actually had actually burned out so so Lambert didn't tell you that at the time no
00:52:17 no no yeah I mean I remember as I say this is after finding out that he was a policeman yeah right so you didn't know at the time that the at all not until I found out it's I didn't know that one of them had burnt down so I still thought
00:52:30 them had burnt down so I still thought it was Just Sprinklers and the and also it was never on the news so I thought I wasn't even sure if he'd really done it actually okay um what did he tell you
00:52:45 actually okay um what did he tell you after the attacks about what he had done did he say he had gone through the plan yeah planted the device yeah uh did he say whether or not he'd done it down the back of a
00:52:55 back of a sofa no I think that was before he' said that um
00:53:03 that um um I just remember this thing about one of them not going off um I seem to get the impr this is obviously not right but you know that one of them didn't go off but it was in the same store you know one of them did and one of them
00:53:15 know one of them did and one of them didn't I I say I thought there was only one in each one but since hearing Paul gr it's kind of jogged my memory like something about another one that didn't go off but it wasn't another person involved
00:53:29 wasn't another person involved so I don't know yeah I mean did he say anything about there being a spare device after the attacks about there being one device left over no not all anything about that um when you saw him first after the attacks what was his
00:53:57 demeanor was he sort of oppressed or no just as same as usual just his normal cheering yeah yeah he didn't seem to as I say I wasn't even I think you know I get the feeling he talks about him more before than he did after okay it wasn't until suddenly
00:54:09 did after okay it wasn't until suddenly there was this you know the cases at the old Bary that I realized like thinking back now I don't think he actually we did talked about it afterwards that much I don't think he
00:54:22 even or which is different to what I just said a minute ago I'm not really sure that he told me okay straight after that it had actually happened and I didn't want to know right and but
00:54:38 didn't want to know right and but definitely by the time the cases came up obviously then yeah it was obvious that it had happened right but to now I'm thinking yeah it wasn't really until then and suddenly that was a bit of a shock sure where you realized the gravity when I realized actually they
00:54:52 gravity when I realized actually they had done it yeah so he definitely yeah he talked about it more before it happened and all those details yeah than than after though I think he must have
00:55:05 than after though I think he must have told me something after cuz but it could have been as late as when the old berly trials were that one of them didn't go off okay so obviously it's a long time ago no no I understood I mean it was a long time ago and yeah it's something I
00:55:20 and yeah it's something I feel I'm not proud of it and I didn't even want anyone to know but you know in the interests of the truth that's why I've because obviously it doesn't reflect very well on
00:55:30 on me at all and it's really
00:55:46 only yeah well you he put his trust in you and you were in a difficult position um I want to talk now about a raid on Lambert's house in Graham Road his bedset I should say um earlier we heard about Lambert writing to you from Kings Linn and saying that he had to do a
00:55:59 Linn and saying that he had to do a gardening job in September 1987 and we think that it might have been after the 12th of September because of that date by the Hammer Smith odion I know we're not quite sure but either before or
00:56:14 not quite sure but either before or after maybe more likely after the 12th of
00:56:19 September now Andrew Clark and Jeff Shepard were arrested for their role in deams on the 9th of September right okay and on that same date Lambert's bedsit at Graham Road was raided right it was a fake raid
00:56:39 raided right it was a fake raid obviously to bolster his cover yeah did he say anything to you about that raid no never metion not that I could remember he may have done but if he did I can't remember right do you happen to know Miss Harvey whether or
00:56:53 whether or not Lambert had any photographs of you and he together at Graham Road looking like a couple I should say what he may have
00:57:08 say what he may have done um I mean certainly you know SE and point where I was we'll get to that we'll get to that but yeah I don't remember as I say it's I remember so much and so many details but you know
00:57:19 much and so many details but you know yeah I don't remember anything about gr road so it does kind of ring a bell well it's probably you're hearing lots of information at lot times so yeah yeah but you don't have a clear recollection of him telling you at that
00:57:37 recollection of him telling you at that time around that time he was either just about to go to kingslin or had got back from kingslin about his place being raided no
00:57:39 raided no right um how did you find out about Jeff Shepherd's and Andrew Clark's
00:57:50 about Jeff Shepherd's and Andrew Clark's arrest did Lambert tell you yeah and can you remember roughly when he told you uh yeah cuz we actually we'd gone to we went to a concert yeah I think
00:58:04 to we went to a concert yeah I think that was I think we've established it's probably the concert it's probably the RM concert yeah yeah so I obviously I Knew by then yeah right um and I don't know how long that was after well that
00:58:15 know how long that was after well that was the 12th of September so they were arrested on the 9th right yeah cuz they were they weren't actually in prison they were in custody police police station yeah
00:58:26 station yeah um so he probably told me on the day they got arrested I would imagine okay on the 9th you think I would imagine but I certainly by the 12 when because we went
00:58:41 went sure um just briefly before we look at that visit um you said that well I understand from your evidence you didn't know Andrew Clark and Jeff sheeper
00:58:52 know Andrew Clark and Jeff sheeper before the deams attack no I don't I may have met them but I can't remember meeting them but you say that Lambert spoke a lot about Jeff Shephard in
00:59:05 spoke a lot about Jeff Shephard in particular yeah and and Andrew but yeah he I think what I'm saying is if I met them I didn't know they were Jeff shepher you know because I knew their names very well because he kept telling them to me yeah so I'm pretty certain I didn't meet them before sure they came
00:59:18 didn't meet them before sure they came out of prison you know I have met them um in your witness statement you talk about Lambert being particularly close to Jeff Shephard yeah he used really
00:59:29 to Jeff Shephard yeah he used really admire it was like he admired him and he thought he was great really and really you know fantastic and I don't know why but so he'd say that to you he'd tell you how wonderful like a close
00:59:48 he'd tell you how wonderful like a close friend really close friend yeah and like they were comrades you know sure uh did you get the impression he had a lot of respect for Jeff Shephard more as a close friend than a respect was it in any way paternal did
01:00:00 respect was it in any way paternal did you feel yeah yeah bit like that right yeah um and you say in your witness statement that you remember him going Jey eyed when he talked about Jeff was that after debam is that after the
01:00:12 that after debam is that after the arrest yeah it was after the arrest so I think he
01:00:21 think he felt like my my interpretation of it at the time was that he felt guilty right that he hadn't been arrested and they had okay and that he was very upset particularly about Jeff right that he was in so much trouble and
01:00:35 was in so much trouble and yeah yeah he you know he felt like he'd like betrayed him or something sure by not getting arrested and they had right yeah but he didn't seem as bothered about Andrew for some reason yeah so it
01:00:48 about Andrew for some reason yeah so it gave you the impression he was closer to Jeff than he was to Andrew yeah um so we've mentioned you went to visit Jeff sheeper and Andrew police Cody and I understand from your statement you were unable to see Jeff
01:01:02 statement you were unable to see Jeff for some reason but you did manage to see
01:01:03 see Andrew um I think you you're unable to unable to recall which police station it was but you think it was somewhere in North
01:01:13 North London yeah and um you know my my memory of that's the first time I ever met Andrew was on that occasion um and actually
01:01:26 occasion um and actually that we were going to try and see Jeff Manley sure but that Jeff wasn't allowed to see seers so we saw but Andrew was
01:01:38 to see seers so we saw but Andrew was allowed yeah so we briefly you know they briefly brought Andrew into a room to see Bob and I was there as well yeah and what what happened on that visit can you remember what they
01:01:55 discussed well they didn't discuss anything about deons or anything like that uh it was more
01:02:01 about you know kind of a supportive friendly you're my friend and it was only five minutes and like
01:02:12 and it was only five minutes and like what was what it was like in the police cell and things like that and like if you had enough clothes and sure stuff like that and how he was being treated and what did Andrew Clark
01:02:24 being treated and what did Andrew Clark say was he think it was right I think it was okay did he seem all right in himself how did yeah he did seem okay obviously scared yeah and yeah I mean I didn't really know I didn't know him
01:02:35 didn't really know I didn't know him that was I think it was the first time I'd ever met him and I was just there I wasn't I didn't want to go i' never been in a police station I don't think never mind I
01:02:49 station I don't think never mind I didn't even know that they had celles in police stations so like it wasn't like earlier on in the night say oh we're going to go and see them we've been to this
01:02:55 this concert and then as we were on the way home he suddenly said oh I want to just go into this police station and see and try and see them that I know that they're being held here so potentially it was near hsmith
01:03:10 here so potentially it was near hsmith but I don't know okay um so a bit like the lgp meeting that it was sort of sprung upon you exactly like that and
01:03:22 sprung upon you exactly like that and did you feel a bit awkward oh yeah well I as I say I'd never even been in a police station really yeah that I recall um I just want to look very briefly at visits to Jeff
01:03:34 look very briefly at visits to Jeff sheeper uh that you made with the lamber right so this is later on after yeah so is this when he is this your understanding that these visits took place when he was on remand or after he'd been convicted or well what was the how when would he have been convicted he was convicted in summer
01:03:47 was convicted in summer 88 I think probably before an hour so when he was on Remar I think there was about three at least three occasions um yes you say three in your witness
01:04:03 um yes you say three in your witness statement and again what do you recall was discussed during those visits between Lambert and Shepherd well again nothing at all political or about what had happened anything about the
01:04:16 had happened anything about the trial or not that I can remember it was more
01:04:18 more about you know I remember Bob saying like he's you know he's teeking vegan food
01:04:29 he's teeking vegan food in and saying that he couldn't get very good vegan food in the prison and also taking cigarettes right because although Jeff didn't smoke
01:04:40 cigarettes um apparently you can use them as currency and when you're in prison to buy things right like food and stuff yeah and so he was taking them with that purpose taking the cigarettes yeah so to the best of your
01:04:53 cigarettes yeah so to the best of your recollection there was no discussion of legal strategy no not at all not when I was there no right um moving on now to the trial uh you convey the sense in
01:05:04 the trial uh you convey the sense in your statement that Lambert went to the trial a lot yeah did he attend every day yeah I think so that's what I remember because I would be going to work and he
01:05:19 because I would be going to work and he would go off to the old Bly yeah and you say in your witness statement that even at the time you found Lambert's Obsession and love for Jeff and his interest in the trial a bit intense yeah because I I thought it was a bit strange that as he was involved he was
01:05:31 strange that as he was involved he was going to go there because I would have thought that's the last place he'd want to go because like he might get caught or impar to you know so I thought that
01:05:43 or impar to you know so I thought that was a bit weird did he did you say that to
01:05:45 to him possibly yeah and what was his reaction that yeah he just nobody knew and he' would just be there like other people did
01:05:56 be there like other people did sorry yeah all the people that were there he'd be in the like OBS observing in the gallery or and there's no
01:06:07 in the gallery or and there's no reason did he T you about the progress of the
01:06:08 of the trial not really no but I wasn't interested so I don't know sure don't know um now after Andrew Clark and Jeff shepper were
01:06:20 shepper were convicted to the best of your recollection I know that Lambert went to visit him did you go and visit it either Jeff or Andrew after conviction to the best of your recollection as I said there were three
01:06:37 recollection as I said there were three occasions and I can't remember if it was after I feel as I feel as though it was in 1988 that these three occasions but so it must it could have been after they were convicted I don't know okay never mind um yeah yeah it's fine um you refer in your witness statement though to
01:06:56 in your witness statement though to Lambert coming home after visiting Jeff yeah and this is in October 1988 right um and that he was in the sort of gloomy frame of mind
01:07:12 was in the sort of gloomy frame of mind would we'll get to that in due cause but would Lambert visit Jeff in prison yeah often to the best of your recollection well more certainly more than the three times we' went together yeah and was it your understanding that those visits were in his capacity as Jeff's friend or
01:07:23 were in his capacity as Jeff's friend or in some sort of official role as part of Alf prisoner support friend as a yeah um right just very quickly Miss Harvey I
01:07:39 right just very quickly Miss Harvey I just want to talk about Lambert having a key to Marjorie Park Road um this is something that Simon Tain says in his witness statements
01:07:55 statements um did Lambert ask for a key to margerie par Road um I think I would have you know he was so much and it was so our relationship was so established that and also his flat was it was just a
01:08:07 that and also his flat was it was just a practical Arrangement because I wouldn't get home from work till 6 or yeah something half six and he would be home so it might have been a mutual a mutual thing rather than something he pushed for yeah is that fair yeah I mean
01:08:19 for yeah is that fair yeah I mean obviously I can't recall but he might have mentioned it but I can't recall I'm sure I didn't want to voluntarily I don't know it could have been Mutual I think but you were happy
01:08:34 been Mutual I think but you were happy to we were so close yeah yeah yeah did you talk to your housemates before giving lamber to key no but as I say I think people's Partners did other people's part who lived their Partners did
01:08:45 did stay I understand that he asked you on one occasion if he could have a meeting hold a meeting at Mar no actually he
01:08:57 hold a meeting at Mar no actually he didn't oh he didn't no he didn't ask it was I came home from work yeah um I don't remember him asking um but yeah no he actually I do recall
01:09:12 um but yeah no he actually I do recall that I wasn't really expecting it but it wasn't I wasn't that shocked I was a bit shocked but yeah he told me a you know on on that evening cuz I came home from work and there were all these people there m
01:09:31 and there were all these people there m and Simon was already there already home and he was sort of quite concerned that they were having this meeting and so Bob came out and I asked him why what they were doing and he said oh they just
01:09:43 were doing and he said oh they just needed a I think he said a safe house a safe place to have a private meeting with his friends his activist friends and can you help us with when this was
01:10:00 and can you help us with when this was right do you think this was before debam so sometime before July 198 I I really can't remember I really can't it was definitely a margerie par road so it was 1987 but I
01:10:11 1987 but I just I can't honestly can't remember no don't worry um Simon comments on the fact that he came home to find this meeting yeah in train and that he was looked at as an
01:10:28 and that he was looked at as an interloper yeah and that it made him cross yeah was that something he expressed to Lambert well I think as I say when I came home I think that had already
01:10:39 came home I think that had already happened so no I didn't obviously Simon said to me when I came in oh what's going on why you letting you know what are all these people doing in our house yeah
01:10:53 um yeah and and I just like made light of it
01:10:56 of it um you know there was quite a lot of people friends coming and going you know we were all very sure relaxed yeah so it
01:11:07 we were all very sure relaxed yeah so it didn't bother you unduly no a little bit because there was quite a few people but they all seemed really friendly and
01:11:19 but they all seemed really friendly and I don't know was Lambert um did he give you any assurances about it not happening
01:11:21 happening again well I know because Simon and other people in the house weren't very
01:11:32 other people in the house weren't very happy about it at all so because of that I told him you know it was understood that it couldn't happen again yeah yeah understood um sir I'm about to move on to a new topic I'm wondering if now is a good time for a break certainly um we'll
01:11:48 good time for a break certainly um we'll break now for quarter of an hour roughly how much longer do you think you have left in this phase of your questioning I think I I would say another couple of it's hard to say I'd
01:12:03 another couple of it's hard to say I'd say an hour and a half yes so we maybe a little bit longer than that we've got a full afternoon you willing to bear with us well yeah that's what I'm here for thank you very well we'll break for quarter an hour all
01:12:24 rise
01:27:53 e e
01:28:55 Miss har I'm sorry to go back to a topic we've just covered there just something I want to clarify on the deams attacks um you said that you you're not my understanding of your evidences you weren't entirely sure when you found out the attacks had happened
01:29:14 yeah you think Bob Lambert told you yeah but you can't remember exactly when that was right do you I mean can you orientate it at all if we look about look at if we take the RM concert something you do remember yeah can you remember in relation to
01:29:31 yeah can you remember in relation to that that was the 12th of September do you remember finding out before that before Lambert went to
01:29:38 kingslin probably okay but I'm not sure sure um in terms of Lambert talking to you
01:29:51 um in terms of Lambert talking to you yeah about the attacks yeah you said in your evidence that it was your understanding that that was around four weeks before the attacks happened what leads you to believe it
01:30:05 happened what leads you to believe it was around four weeks before the attacks happened if you're a little bit unsure about when the attacks happened does that make sense no I'm sure when the attacks happened because the night that he was going to do it he said he was going to do it
01:30:19 going to do it and is there any that night when he said he was going to do it is there anything in your I mean we know now that the attacks happened on the 11th and 12th of July is there anything from your memory then that brings to mind the date of that night that you can pinpoint that
01:30:33 that night that you can pinpoint that date no no only that I know now that it happened then right so that's something you've put together well I remember him going off saying he was going to do it
01:30:54 going off saying he was going to do it the night before he did it and yeah that July is sounds the right time just cuz it was you know a few months like certain amount of time into our relationship like reasonably early on yeah um is there any other way you can pinpoint it apart from what you found
01:31:06 pinpoint it apart from what you found out in terms of was there any event you attended together immediate soon afterwards or before that can help just pinpoint that
01:31:19 date don't worry if not no not really um anything do you remember anything particular on the radio you said you were listening to to Radio 4 can you remember anything in the news or anything that might help pin it
01:31:43 down what are you suggesting he might have said it on a night that it didn't happen it's it's just to try and
01:31:53 and verify I mean it as far as we can yeah what your recollection is because obviously you've heard things subsequently right don't worry if you can't but I mean this is not stuff I heard I didn't talk to anyone about it even Simon until no not not really um let me
01:32:15 think well I do know it was in the summer
01:32:17 summer yep
01:32:18 yep [Music]
01:32:21 [Music] um and
01:32:30 um and you know I've just been thinking about it and I think as I say I think I saw him about six days afterwards and he told
01:32:35 told me I think he did tell me briefly it had happened but that was it and then we didn't talk about anymore and then it was only when the we didn't talk about I say it didn't certainly didn't say that one of the stores had burned down and
01:32:46 one of the stores had burned down and that was the only way you say that you only found out from him you didn't see any other news flash about it no El definitely didn't see any news flash about
01:33:22 it
01:46:51 e e
01:47:46 there must be no reporting uh to the outside world of uh what you heard between 8 minutes past 3 and 11 11 minutes p 3 this
01:48:00 afternoon please if we could bring up again MPS 03 7218 thank you very much um so we were talking about Howard yeah and you were saying that it was your
01:48:12 you were saying that it was your impression he was not an activist yeah at the time you lived with him because you say he was just going to work and then just spending time at the flat is that right abs absolutely all going to
01:48:27 that right abs absolutely all going to the pub all going to the pub yeah um can we please go to paragraph two of that
01:48:37 report no apologies can we sorry so sorry paragraph one where he's described by Lambert
01:48:51 one where he's described by Lambert as a he says he's referred to a member of staff at housman's anaka Bookshop he's been referred to a a leading Anarchist with close contacts in the animal Liberation Front class war London Green Peace and the peace news Collective Miss Harvey would you say
01:49:07 Collective Miss Harvey would you say it's accurate to have described Howard then as a leading Anarchist no I mean he called himself an anarchist he would say he was an an he
01:49:23 anarchist he would say he was an an he would describe himself as such but there was nothing in his behavior that would leave me I don't really know what an anarchist is except they don't vote um
01:49:29 um but but he was definitely interested in the peace news Collective and that was connected to his work that at the book shop um but no he didn't have any connection at all that I'm aware of with
01:49:46 connection at all that I'm aware of with animal any any Animal Rights group he he used to talk quite a lot about like say 10 years earlier in his life when he did seem to know right um people who were an
01:49:59 seem to know right um people who were an aist and he um who might have been doing stuff that he wouldn't tell me about anyway right he was quite secretive and private person right um but he's 100% not doing anything CU I was home every even I you know I knew I was there I
01:50:17 even I you know I knew I was there I would have known if he was wasn't never went to any meetings never saw anyone except in a social
01:50:29 except in a social capacity thank you if we talk now about Natalie North yeah have you got the cipher list now miss Harvey I have yes you refer to her in deep de deception as Greta that's the pseudonym she's given there yeah but we're calling her Natalie North yeah is it correct
01:50:47 her Natalie North yeah is it correct Miss Harvey that Natalie North this is something actually in another hent report but that she was married but it was a sort of convenience I marriage as opposed to a love match is that fair yeah right that was your
01:51:02 that fair yeah right that was your understanding of her she was English um I'm not sure don't say yeah don't say where she was from she wasn't English yeah she wasn't English and I think there was something about a marriage in order for her to get her
01:51:13 order for her to get her citizenship so she was Mrs North yeah but I never knew who she was married to or anything from what you saw was she an anarchist
01:51:32 from what you saw was she an anarchist or an anarchist activist of any I never I never talked to her particularly I wasn't very close to her at all um she was a bit sort of cold I felt right um she seemed really really
01:51:44 right um she seemed really really friendly with Bob they seem to get on really really
01:51:54 really really well um you know too well in my opinion I understand she used to it says deep deception she walked around the flat naked yeah she did she was quite a strange woman did she walk around the flat naked in front of Lambert and Howard
01:52:13 yeah and you didn't you weren't close to her not I thought she was a bit strange I didn't really take to her like I did
01:52:20 Howard you say in your witness statement that Lambert also had a key to Sean point this is before he moved in which we'll come to he had a key again how did he come to have a key to that address
01:52:31 he come to have a key to that address well as soon as I moved in I got him a key CT I mean and you know I checked with Howard and Natalie and they were quite happy you know after all he was friends of theirs yeah he was quite happy in fact I think potentially used
01:52:43 happy in fact I think potentially used to go around there before I even moved in but I don't know if he would have had a key but he certainly was going around there sometimes socially
01:53:00 yeah how often when you after you moved in there how often would Lambert come over to that flat oh you know all the time um as I said I think by then he started doing the taxi in a bit more right more nights than
01:53:12 right more nights than before um you know earlier on it was more sort of gardening and stuff but yeah he was doing the taxi more um and you know that was the time when he would like I I'd come home from
01:53:25 when he would like I I'd come home from work and see his van if he was there I'd see his van right parked so he was there before me and would he be there alone well no I think from my memory Howard
01:53:39 well no I think from my memory Howard finished work quite early much earlier than me so I like worked in central
01:53:50 than me so I like worked in central London and had to get the the train home um and he would be already home and Natalie don't know what she I can't remember her there as much but Howard was always there you know there yeah of an evening
01:54:04 there you know there yeah of an evening yeah yeah but I mean essentially Lambert could come and go as heed 100% uh I just want to make a quick digression at this point just to talk
01:54:17 digression at this point just to talk about John dyes okay because it's around this time if we're talking sort of February March 1988 yeah that you say you met dines when you accompanied Lambert to visit an activist in Stamford Hill do you
01:54:31 activist in Stamford Hill do you remember that yeah I do remember I can't remember now the exact date but it was when um you know the housing was getting all um evictions yeah the
01:54:42 all um evictions yeah the evictions yeah Stanford Hill and you commment in your witness statement on the way that dines and lamber greeted each other can you tell us about that
01:54:57 each other can you tell us about that when they saw one another can we just go back to the date when was the day so it's around March 1988 right yeah and you say that they greeted each other in a very friendly fashion do you remember that absolutely I remember it very distinctly and
01:55:13 I remember it very distinctly and clearly uh can you tell us a bit more about it and what yeah so I think we parked the car and Bob was going to this um meeting with this activist and I I was
01:55:30 meeting with this activist and I I was going to see my friend who had you know who I who I knew and um she had a baby and yeah I wasn't interested in going to the meeting but I think I might have briefly gone in and then thought it was really boring right and left you
01:55:45 was really boring right and left you know and really intense and serious and I'm just not interest in things like that um although I was you know broadly supportive of the because my friend lived there and had a baby yeah and they were going to get
01:56:00 were going to get evicted so I kind of after being there five 10 minutes I left but I can't remember if John di was at the meeting so it's before we went up to the meeting y that we met in the car
01:56:14 y that we met in the car park or it yeah it was at some point or potentially we went to the meeting for the five minutes and then I went down to see my friend potentially Bob came down with me I can't remember the details and then he went back up um yeah and I
01:56:31 then he went back up um yeah and I remember John dyes if my memory is correct had like a flat bed
01:56:38 bed van and yeah they were sort of oh wow great to see you you know they threw their arms around each other and it really was like they were so close like brothers or something did you comment on it afterwards to
01:56:50 it afterwards to Lambert well I didn't think it was no not well I said oh he's obviously a great friend and what did he say he said yeah he is he's my old friend yeah we're really close did he tell you anything about how they knew each
01:57:09 about how they knew each other no but I got the impression it was you know it was a fellow activist right and that's how they knew each other you say that you would see dine socially yeah with
01:57:21 socially yeah with Lambert well with and without actually okay and again was this at the pub in King's cross all around the place not in King's cross I don't really remember seeing him there but I remember seeing
01:57:40 seeing him there but I remember seeing him you know around Stanford Hill in the because the flats there was people we knew in all the flats yeah I mean by then I did sort of know people in the squatting Community by this time cuz Bob had introduced me to them all yeah um so by that time I knew them
01:57:56 um so by that time I knew them and I've made friends with them and as I say started seeing my other friends a bit less so I still did see them right so yeah my direction was kind of changing of who I was hanging around
01:58:08 changing of who I was hanging around with what was the question you see him so it was about seeing John Dy so sometimes like maybe when Bob was for
01:58:21 sometimes like maybe when Bob was for instance doing the taxi in the night or something you know I'd be like social events at people's houses we used to always spend a lot of time at people's houses each other's houses right um and
01:58:33 houses each other's houses right um and roughly how many times do you think you saw John dyes in a social
01:58:40 setting well where you saying it was quite early on that I met him there well
01:58:52 quite early on that I met him there well March 1988 yeah around well I carried on seeing him probably a good few months um I'd say maybe 10 times social or maybe more I don't really know well I remember we I quite liked him you know
01:59:04 remember we I quite liked him you know we were quite why did you like him well he just seemed friendly and I like people who are quite light-hearted and joal you know he was quite friendly and good to be company good company he
01:59:20 good to be company good company he seemed to like me he was a friend really good friend of Bobs that was in important right and obviously being friends looking back I suppose I thought you know being friends it wasn't like
01:59:31 you know being friends it wasn't like the calculated in any way I just liked him and yeah and you like Bob yeah and he he seemed to have like the people that I you know friends we had sort of common friends really that as much as
01:59:45 common friends really that as much as anything was it your impression that he knew that you and Bob you and lamber were in a relationship oh yeah of course 100% right and how just from the first very first time I met him I was introduced as his
02:00:00 met him I was introduced as his girlfriend um you know the very first time in the car park this is this is Belinda my girlfriend um pleased to meet you oh it's really nice to meet you and yeah and very friendly right from the beginning and did you become quite
02:00:18 the beginning and did you become quite friendly with dines then yeah I mean not sort of Buzz and buddies but yeah I saw him a lot as I said we seem to have a lot of friends in common yeah um and we liked each other yeah I mean it wasn't a
02:00:31 mean it wasn't a special you know like I wasn't as close to friend to say as as as with Howard right um
02:00:38 sure you say miss Harvey that in your witness statement that he seemed to you like d this is seemed to you like quite a fringe person what do you mean by that um
02:00:57 I think I mean is that in relation to activism or socially yeah activism you think yeah he wasn't like I didn't get the impression he was a
02:01:08 the impression he was a massive activist he was more of a social activist if you know what I mean like pretending or I think maybe he was interested in Hunt sabbin a bit and did you ever see him with Helen steel
02:01:23 no um just bring I'll bring this up quickly can we please bring up ucpi
02:01:33 37014 this is the diary entry from the 23rd of June 19 yeah just to go back when I say I never saw him with Helen steel I mean I think we were all both situ social things together right but you didn't see them together as a no
02:01:46 you didn't see them together as a no more like as a couple no definitely not at that
02:01:51 at that time um I'm so sorry so I don't have the bundle reference for this apologies can you make it a bit bigger please yes yes please
02:01:58 please do
02:02:00 do um this I understand is a diary entry from the 23rd of June 1988 yeah just to say that might have been the couple of days before or a couple of days after
02:02:11 days before or a couple of days after and that I just wrote it on that page oh fine I understand yeah yeah before after or before you got the message yeah well no I wrote it down when I got the message but my diary might not have been over on yes no the actual day yeah um
02:02:29 over on yes no the actual day yeah um does it say my reading of it is that it s at the top phone Paul lter yeah and then there's a number yeah and then it
02:02:40 then there's a number yeah and then it says if Paul sees Bob give phone number if Bob or friend John Rings say ring above number need to ring urgently might not phone though yeah what do you remember about this message it's a
02:02:51 remember about this message it's a little bit okay well I think the bit that says F Paul Luton is separate right that that might have been in the diary already okay um and then I wrote the phone number
02:03:07 um and then I wrote the phone number there suppose somebody rang up yeah and I seem to remember I was in the middle of doing something else and this
02:03:18 person you know was quite wanted to get a mess this message
02:03:26 so I don't know what Paul that refers to fine don't worry I just want but I don't think it was Paul lutter and I think pretend it could have been Paul grabit I don't know you say in your witness statement that about this that you remember it was a given us a really
02:03:41 remember it was a given us a really important message oh yeah it seemed like this person seemed and I didn't know this person whoever it was from Adam right somebody I didn't recognize or know yeah and he kept saying oh don't
02:03:52 know yeah and he kept saying oh don't worry it's fine um but if you know don't worry though it's fine uh you know if Bob our friend John John phones say ring above number so that number is obviously
02:04:08 number so that number is obviously related to the message right um but it is a bit confusing that F Paul Lon is there because I don't think it was that Paul but I don't know it could have been but I don't think so but the gist of it was that it was a message that had to be
02:04:22 was that it was a message that had to be passed on to Bob or if not Bob John yeah and the phone number was the critical bit of it I think but whatever it was it was something urgent they seemed
02:04:33 urgent they seemed quite I don't know how to describe what they seemed like quite pressing yeah quite pressing but also then dismissive at the same time oh
02:04:46 then dismissive at the same time oh don't worry if it doesn't if it doesn't wrate if Bob or friend John F say ring above number yeah they need to ring urgently this person wanted to get in touch
02:04:52 touch with either Bob or John essentially um but but don't worry they might
02:05:06 not you know it might not they might see them before or something obviously it doesn't make much sense the message and I remember I was like doing something else at the time
02:05:18 like doing something else at the time and just writing something in short hand all right well don't worry so okay yeah but I mean it is something to do with Bob or friend John right and yeah that by that you understood John John yeah John D yeah um okay we can take that
02:05:34 John D yeah um okay we can take that down now please um I want to move on now to your um Bob yours and Lambert's moving in together or are they his moving in to seat and point yeah
02:05:55 um now my understanding is that you raised I'm not entirely sure when in 1988 but early in 1988 you raised with him the possibility of you're living together yeah and he had a negative
02:06:06 together yeah and he had a negative reaction to that yeah I think it was quite early in 1988 as I say part of the reason I moved into Su Point um but then he suddenly changed his mind is that
02:06:17 he suddenly changed his mind is that correct yeah so how long after that sort of quite strong negative response did he then seem to have a change of heart a few months right and did he explain to
02:06:34 few months right and did he explain to you why he hadd had a change of heart no not really it seemed a bit random
02:06:40 random and how did you feel when he changed his mind oh I was just delighted I thought yeah
02:06:41 yeah delighted and it was fine with Howard and Natalie North they were happy for
02:06:52 and Natalie North they were happy for him to oh yeah cuz he was there a lot anyway um I'd like to bring up is ucpi
02:06:56 is ucpi 37011 Services tab
02:07:14 A2 Miss Harvey this is a diary entry of yours from May 1988 yeah um I'll read it out if that's all right it says the the main text says I'm beginning to feel this nagging feeling that Bob isn't good for me not at the moment but in the future I I think maybe we're too different what hell it's going to be when we do Parts I'm going to see what
02:07:28 when we do Parts I'm going to see what it's like when he moves in here at the end of the week but I want a home and I'm not sure he does and I realize that I'll have to do something about it at some point one thing I do know is that I don't want to be looking over my
02:07:39 don't want to be looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life because of a man and then well he's not just any man that's the problem so the date of that is May 1988 and you refer to him
02:07:56 that is May 1988 and you refer to him moving in at the end of the week yeah so from that it follows that he moved in some time around May yeah 1988 yeah um from this it seems that even
02:08:08 yeah um from this it seems that even though he was moving in you still had doubts
02:08:14 doubts about I was just starting to have doubts as I say about stuff he was up to and that maybe he wasn't going to change direction right and that I was going to end up
02:08:24 end up you know looking over my shoulder yeah to
02:08:31 to see because the police were after him is that the idea yeah exactly because of that this is just a brief point but you've written at the very top PS if you read this Bob what's written below was when I was depressed and feeling really negative can I ask
02:08:43 negative can I ask did did you have a notion that he might be reading your diary well yeah because I thought we were going to be together and yeah and he did write in my diary and yeah he could read my diary cuz I
02:08:55 and yeah he could read my diary cuz I would leave it in the bedroom or this was more of a journal than a diary but I mean obviously you're confiding quite personal feelings to it but it was yeah but we were you know I I thought there
02:09:09 but we were you know I I thought there was a possibility he could read it and I didn't want him to think you
02:09:12 think you know but it's a joke now and I look at it but yeah I changed my mind very quick you know obviously when he so June 20th by then he must have moved in at the
02:09:23 by then he must have moved in at the bottom it said June 20th and then I've written that at the top on the same day by the look of it it's the same pen um so it moved in and obviously by then I
02:09:39 so it moved in and obviously by then I was beginning to think I do remember him well on more than one occasion once in 1987 but certainly in 1988 specifically him saying that he wasn't he was he was going to stop doing it all right and he was going to you know become more low abiding was that
02:09:54 know become more low abiding was that after deams do you think yeah it was one point yeah after deams yeah in 1987 and then in 19 at this time as well right in 1988 he said he was going to change his way but there was two
02:10:06 change his way but there was two occasions when he said that to me and then it just you know obviously in the main 88 one it was be I was beginning to feel you know that he wasn't good for me
02:10:22 feel you know that he wasn't good for me yeah and the reason you thought that was because he didn't seem to be changing his ways essentially he didn't seem to be Chang his ways and not only that I was thinking he didn't want to get married and have children which was
02:10:36 married and have children which was something I wanted you know to do a lot yeah um and again we'll we'll come to discussions that you had you say in your witness statement that after you wrote this he wrote he did move in about a week later and you helped him move what few possessions he
02:10:49 helped him move what few possessions he had from his flat to yours so you helped him F his possessions from Graham Road to point and it was your understanding
02:11:04 to point and it was your understanding then that he was moving out of SE Road end of the police gram road yeah that was sorry Graham Road but that was finished yeah that was my understanding um I'd like to just bring up please ucpi
02:11:20 37262 this and page one please sir that's tab two of your supplemental bundle
02:11:32 and this is a letter from Lambert to Paul gravit that he sent around March 1988 around a similar time to the earlier exhibit we looked at from Helen still when he was in elely right supposedly planting trees around a
02:11:44 supposedly planting trees around a bypass yeah now I I'm bringing this up Miss Harvey because Lambert in his witness statement denies
02:11:51 denies living with you yeah um you obviously say that that's not the case and that you did live together yeah if we I just want to look at
02:12:06 yeah if we I just want to look at paragraph two of this he says here and given this is we think again we can't exactly pin it down but we think sort of late March at8 he says I moved out of
02:12:17 late March at8 he says I moved out of Graham Road when I started this job I.E the job of planting trees around the yeah
02:12:18 yeah bypass weekends I'm at point on the Nightingale estate with Belinda Howard and Natalie North Monday to Thursday nights are spent in the back of my van
02:12:32 nights are spent in the back of my van with good music to listen to obviously especially Steely Dan so does that sound accurate to you was he I mean potentially I've got you
02:12:45 was he I mean potentially I've got you know when I moved helped him to move out of Groom
02:12:46 of Groom rad potentially that was earlier than when he actually moved fully in with Me Maybe he I don't think he went anywhere else though now I can't really understand why that's the different
02:13:00 understand why that's the different dates to when I said he moved in which was May fine well don't worry we can take that down now um but yeah he does certainly say that's so that's this is particularly about when he was doing
02:13:14 particularly about when he was doing this job isn't it yeah um so yeah it's around March April 88 March April so then oh right so if it was April and then it was May that he moved in he was the job maybe was the one that lasted four weeks I don't know or was that
02:13:26 four weeks I don't know or was that later well we think that's the summer yeah that's the S one but it still could have been well it depends when this letter was doesn't it yeah we don't have a precise date for the letter but the post but Helen's one Helen's had a
02:13:38 post but Helen's one Helen's had a postmark of 30th of March and he refers in this to Easter being something that's coming up oh yeah yeah what it is such a long time
02:13:55 long time ago but in any event the fact that he was spending most of his time at the night Andale estate oh yeah he absolutely was is accurate
02:13:59 accurate um when he moved into to Sean Point yeah he did you split the rent and the bells I can't actually remember I mean
02:14:15 bells I can't actually remember I mean in my head I was paying the rent did he make any sort of financial contribution well you would think so
02:14:26 contribution well you would think so wouldn't you but did he I can't remember right um but again for the avoidance of Doubt season point was not a squat was it oh no not not at all I mean it was a council flat I mean I'm not sure that Howard was really meant to be having
02:14:39 Howard was really meant to be having other people there but I I certainly paid a third of the rent
02:14:49 yeah and at that time I was trying to serve up to buy how the flat like a deposit yeah yeah again so yeah we're just about to come to that actually
02:15:03 so looking now at the way that Lambert influenced your life and the course of your
02:15:04 your life you say in your statement you distinctly recall this period of living together at Satan Point yeah because
02:15:17 together at Satan Point yeah because during it you stopped seeing as much of your University friends your graduate friends yeah um and you suggest that this may have been the point you touched on earlier that some of your University friends were
02:15:33 friends were alienated by Lambert's politics yeah so does it follow from that that when he was with your friends he would talk about his politics and his activism not necessarily as activism but certainly as politics which you know being sort of anarchist stuff I don't
02:15:45 being sort of anarchist stuff I don't really know what anarchism is but yeah just being not having a job and yeah and you feel like that yeah not being not trying to better yourself
02:15:55 yourself and you know your life and you know everybody else was trying to improve themselves not sort of drag themselves down so did you get a sort of sense of tacet disapproval yeah
02:16:11 sort of sense of tacet disapproval yeah a little bit a little bit but I do carry on seeing them all yeah um particularly Simon obviously sure um you say that you
02:16:23 Simon obviously sure um you say that you ended up spending all of your spare time with Lambert and his friends when you lived in Seas Point yeah was that again going to the pub is this with yeah it would include
02:16:36 yeah it would include Howard yeah Paul grait yeah LGB people from
02:16:43 from lgp London green pieace yeah some some of them not necessarily but yeah but Paul grait particularly um BLX right he was a very close friend of
02:16:58 close friend of Lamberts he was the first person I met even before Paul yeah Robin Lane
02:17:01 Lane uh no not that TI let me
02:17:13 think no I don't think I met him I didn't meet him till later right okay um but he was somebody that you know before I met him Bob used to talk about him a lot and kept saying oh you'll really like him he's really
02:17:26 oh you'll really like him he's really he's a great guy and yeah you must meet him we must arrange to meet him let's let's go out and meet him yeah and he mentioned it so many times that actually I remember when I when I did eventually meet
02:17:41 when I did eventually meet him I sort of was a bit oh you know you think you're you know why haven't you you know I don't know what do you mean by that what you think that well cuz I
02:17:52 by that what you think that well cuz I it felt like he hadn't want to met meet me or something I don't know why you know I got but I don't think he actually unbeknown to me wasn't a buzzom buddy of bobs at the time but I thought he was um so I thought it was strange
02:18:08 he was um so I thought it was strange that we hadn't met before but but that was the impression but when I met him when I did meet him we got on like a house on fire you know so yeah um so you were drifting away from your friends is that fair to say well once I was
02:18:20 that fair to say well once I was drifting where but seeing less of them
02:18:31 drifting where but seeing less of them right and you've just mentioned how you started thinking about buying a flat yeah
02:18:32 yeah um now that summer where Lambert was supposedly working but was actually away with his family for that long period so
02:18:44 with his family for that long period so 3 to four weeks yeah my understanding is that in that period you started house hunting I did is that right looking for a flat yeah um because you've got a promotion at work yeah and you didn't you were sick of seat and points it was
02:19:04 you were sick of seat and points it was depressing yeah and I'd served up enough money for a deposit by then right and when Lambert returned from that work trip holiday um you showed him the flat yeah I was really excited uh you know that I was buying this flat and I'd even put an
02:19:15 buying this flat and I'd even put an offer in yeah and what was his reaction to the flat I just didn't like it didn't think it was a good idea at all I mean at first he was he thought it was okay
02:19:28 at first he was he thought it was okay and then he went round yeah and I showed him it and I was really excited and thought this would be our future and you know the main thing he said oh you do realize it's above a
02:19:42 said oh you do realize it's above a fried chicken shop I mean it was kind of set back from the Fried Chicken shop so I had really noticed the Fried Chicken shop
02:19:43 shop before it was kind of set back and then you know so you couldn't really see the Fried Chicken shop yeah so I didn't actually real realized it was above a fried chicken shop really um but yeah he was adamant that
02:19:59 really um but yeah he was adamant that oh this isn't this isn't suitable it's above a fried chicken shop that's you know I'm a vegan and you're a vegetarian and why would you want to live above a fried chicken shop right so like I was really it just spoiled it for me cuz I
02:20:14 really it just spoiled it for me cuz I that the whole reason I mean I wanted to have my own you know I'd always wanted to have my own place as soon as I could afford it and actually subsequently I never went I never managed to get my own place till much later well you've
02:20:27 place till much later well you've anticipated my next question so said I understand that because he reacted in the way that he did you withdrew your offer is that correct 100% yeah and can I ask why did his approval mean so much
02:20:40 I ask why did his approval mean so much to you I just regret it so much now that I did I really well because who was my future at the time and I loved him and I thought I wanted to be with him more than anything more than I wanted a flat
02:20:54 than anything more than I wanted a flat of my own on so if I'd have bought that flat and then he didn't like it and didn't come around then that's not that's not the objective the objective was that we had a flat together and live together
02:21:01 together and yeah yeah um after that I mean you've said that you only it took a while then before you did buy a flat
02:21:12 while then before you did buy a flat after that did you then just give up on buying a flat for the immediate future so what date was this J know this was summer 1988
02:21:26 was this J know this was summer 1988 yeah well what happened was around that time he introduced me as I say around the same time when I say I stopped seeing my other friends as much he introduced me to this whole new set of people who were in The squatting
02:21:38 people who were in The squatting Community um in St into Hackney in St Newton um and one of those people particularly is one of my best friends now um and she lived in this particular there was this particular squat house
02:21:50 there was this particular squat house that was squatted is this sack Road no right that this was before yeah in about June or something around the same time
02:22:02 June or something around the same time and um just looking if some one of the people
02:22:10 here I can't I can't see any of the names of the people that were there on this
02:22:11 this list um but looking back that you know they were I mean well why isn't there's a particular one who is a core partip who's not on this list oh so I don't
02:22:23 who's not on this list oh so I don't know if I you can write it down if you want you can write it down and then we can have a look at it I mean he didn't actually live in this he was one of the people he was in a different PL
02:22:40 people he was in a different PL place but but there was this particular Squat and he took me around there yeah this person didn't live in this particular house yeah of course yes but I saw that person
02:22:53 I saw that person separately in in a different squat thank you um but yeah he introduced me to it and um to these people and the women there who weren't activists really they were just squatters from I don't know they were in the squatting
02:23:08 they were in the squatting Community I think were just so lovely they were just such lovely women I I just loved them so much I just thought they were great you know and I'm like oh wow these are so lovely these people are so lovely like really kind
02:23:24 people are so lovely like really kind and giving and unselfish you know that's how it seemed to me yeah and not orientated on money and they just seemed such nice people and I immediately fell for them right and wanted to see them
02:23:35 for them right and wanted to see them more right as friends and I did actually make friends with them one in particular yeah who came around to De see point and but what how does that link to your
02:23:52 but what how does that link to your decision not to buy a flat was that were those two things linked some way I suppose not but it just took my attention off that sure and do you think also maybe was there an element of they were squatters
02:24:08 there an element of they were squatters they weren't interested in it's not like the kind of buying a house is not kind of the same it's in a different whole different world isn't it you know it's capitalist or whatever you know I didn't want to I didn't want these people to
02:24:19 want to I didn't want these people to think I was a capitalist most of them didn't really work yeah and I worked full-time already as it was so that and also most of them dressed like sort of like Punky and things like that and I didn't but I
02:24:32 things like that and I didn't but I still loved them you know yeah yeah and thought they were great yeah and I wanted them to like me yeah yeah I understand so your priorities changed yeah and suddenly it didn't and suddenly it didn't seem as important but I
02:24:45 it didn't seem as important but I understand from what you said not long ago that you now regret not buying oh gosh yeah I really do it was a big bad very very bad decision very bad um miss Harvey I'd like to talk now about
02:24:59 Harvey I'd like to talk now about vulnerability you say in your witness statement that while at the time of your relationship with lamber you didn't consider yourself to be vulnerable that looking back you now think differently yeah can you explain why you think
02:25:12 yeah can you explain why you think differently now partly because of my parents like their financial situation and moving house all the time and and
02:25:23 and moving house all the time and and you know the fact when I came back from America I just you know this boyfriend had dumped me and I didn't actually have anywhere to live and I had to get a job quickly
02:25:35 to get a job quickly and I staying on friend's couch for a while before this was sort of before I met Bob but my situation my
02:25:47 situation my parents I think my parents were living in a caravan at that time y and my dad has lost his job again
02:25:59 and my dad has lost his job again and I don't know I just felt a bit lost so things weren't very stable in your life no but I don't want to be see myself I've never want to see myself as a vulnerable person but you know I want to be strong and I want to be yeah in
02:26:19 to be strong and I want to be yeah in control and and you know yeah um do you think that the age gap between you and Lambert yeah had yeah that makes me angry I was 24 25 maybe 26 when he left 20 yeah no 25
02:26:33 25 still and um no I must have been 26 when he left but when I first met him I was 24 and can I ask him what way do you think that disparity age I mean as it now transpires there was well because now looking back he had his life sorted out already he already had a wife or
02:26:45 out already he already had a wife or family and a house and everything and I didn't and he stopped me having that you know it completely changed the direction he introduced me to all these lovely people who I still love but they
02:26:59 lovely people who I still love but they were squatting and that wasn't the way I was
02:27:03 was going you know I wanted to have my own house and have a professional career and to what extent do you think that the fact that he was older and that as you've described was incredibly
02:27:15 incredibly confident what do you think that gave him a greater ability to influence yeah I mean looking back I feel as though I was like groomed really like played with like a play
02:27:31 really like played with like a play thing and I think he used me to get closer to his targets um you know and I thought they were his buzz and buddies and he was introducing me to his close dearest
02:27:43 introducing me to his close dearest friends and now I find out he was using me as part of his job yeah well again we'll talk about the impact on you and
02:27:54 we'll talk about the impact on you and the way you f the way you felt when you found out the truth well that is how I felt that is how I feel yeah no I understand and as I say this public inquiry every time I
02:28:06 inquiry every time I come it's another blow yeah you mean you f because you find out yeah I find out more and more yeah you know it only just become app parent to me these people because you know I come and all these
02:28:18 because you know I come and all these friends of mine are on the you know you are you're right Miss Harvey would you like to take a break no I'm okay your eyes yeah pause a moment yeah I'm
02:28:33 moment yeah I'm okay yeah no I'm can't that's fine it's fine isues there yeah no I'm fine okay I'm fine you know I haven't done anything wrong on the contrary we yeah I have all all I am concerned about is your well-being and yeah the moment you
02:28:48 your well-being and yeah the moment you need a break just say so I'd rather get through it do you know what I mean understand we have got to have a break at some stage yes well we'll have a yeah I'll let you know if I need one thank you so
02:28:59 you so much um just for the transcript I'm just going to mention that M Harvey when you wrote the name down of someone that you want to know that was Steve Curtis and we can say that now yeah so again just making that clear for yeah so he's he's
02:29:13 making that clear for yeah so he's he's again a close friend who I still know I don't see him that much these days but he was a particularly quite young he was he's younger than me and he's particularly someone who looked up looked to looked up to Bob as a
02:29:30 up looked to looked up to Bob as a father figure 100% I'm very influenced by him right that's my memory right talking now about children yeah
02:29:41 right talking now about children yeah and conversations you had with Lambert about that yeah did you and Lambert discuss having children yeah we did so I always assumed that you know yeah I we
02:29:54 always assumed that you know yeah I we did um and when I when I told him that I wanted children and this was really important to me he you know to my shock and horror and I think it might have just been around that time when I wrote that saying I don't think he's very good for me in the future so it's May 19 um he to
02:30:13 me in the future so it's May 19 um he to my astonishment said that he didn't want children and he already had one that he couldn't provide for and activism was his most important raise on Detra as it were
02:30:25 were and that was his main focus and having you know all the things I wanted yeah seemed like not as you know he was kind of making out they weren't very important like they were kind of Bourgeois or
02:30:36 Bourgeois or something you know that that was something that you shouldn't really strive for because there was much more important things you should be trying to
02:30:48 important things you should be trying to do yeah in the world you know I fell for it yeah right and was that the first time you talked about having children and the fact he didn't want to have them was that around May 1988 I think around that time
02:31:04 that time yeah how did you feel when he said oh it was devasta I remember crying did you cry in front of him oh yeah I cried and cried yeah I cried yeah cuz I couldn't believe
02:31:13 believe it you know it like my everything was going up in smoke and it wasn't at all what he yeah I wasn't going to be able to change his
02:31:25 to change his mind and what did he say when you cried did he try and comfort you or was he yeah he started saying things like oh you deserve better than me and stuff like
02:31:34 like that
02:31:36 that you refer to Lambert when you were in Dorset on that final trip together in December yeah saying that saying to you
02:31:47 December yeah saying that saying to you that he wanted you to meet someone else
02:32:00 that he wanted you to meet someone else that you could settle down with and have children with yeah what did you make of him saying this to you well by then he was going to be going on the run you know that was our final um but I was still wanting thinking no we love each other too much it can't be I was not accepting it
02:32:22 and yeah it was again the same thing that his politics was more important to him that these like having a a family and and a wife of family weren't an important thing and that you shouldn't it's not his priority and because he
02:32:34 it's not his priority and because he have higher things and I believed it yeah and did and I felt like I was stupid for wanting these things well that was going to be my next question so did he make you feel as if you were a
02:32:46 did he make you feel as if you were a bit Yeah lightweight yeah exactly that and you know that wasn't what what you should be wanting you should be wanting to improve the
02:32:58 you should be wanting to improve the world more and like you know wasn't yeah like I was a less that was a lesser ambition and yeah not appropriate ambition and but while you were having these arguments in the time you spent
02:33:11 these arguments in the time you spent together yeah aside from these arguments did he continue to be loving and affectionate and kind so would it be fair to say that you were getting incredibly confusing mixed mess very
02:33:22 incredibly confusing mixed mess very mixed messages because the way he acted and the way he was like always hugging me and looking at me and telling me how great I was it was you know it was just completely different to the things he was saying which is why I couldn't
02:33:43 was saying which is why I couldn't believe it and you know remember on the trip to dorsa again you know crying my eyes out crying and crying in the car and then he he actually relented and came around and said that he would I could go to sper with him cuz like by that point I was his spell yeah I was
02:33:54 that point I was his spell yeah I was willing to give up everything yeah and go on the run with him I mean it's ridiculous when I look back I can't believe I was even thinking yeah that I would do that but I would have done it yeah and you talked about you had these
02:34:06 yeah and you talked about you had these discussions about children on more more than one occasion is that correct yeah I mean that was the main one um that you know the original time can you remember
02:34:18 know the original time can you remember how many times rly you discussed it well obviously with with him having such a big reaction against I didn't want to bring it up again too quickly but it was the way he was towards me and so loving and as though we were going to be
02:34:31 and as though we were going to be together I can't exactly remember sure ju again just for the avoidance of Doubt Lambert States in his witness statement
02:34:42 Lambert States in his witness statement that you had no discussions about having children well it's not you ref that I mean why would I make it up I mean it's just it's just not true true um briefly I want to talk about
02:34:54 true um briefly I want to talk about Lambert's interactions with your family yeah uh he met your parents I understand on several occasions uh he went to you
02:35:06 on several occasions uh he went to you and he went to visit them yeah in Wales yeah um there are two photographs you exhibit I won't bring them up because he's not with your parents but they're taken in a place called Connor's key
02:35:17 taken in a place called Connor's key yeah which I understand is that's where they live where they live and
02:35:22 live and when he went to visit your parents did you stay in their house yeah you say that I think your dad had some concerns about his job status yeah because you know they were expecting me to have a professional I've been to
02:35:36 to have a professional I've been to University I was the first one to go to university and I you know they weren't expecting me to start being living in a squat and hanging around with some you
02:35:47 squat and hanging around with some you didn't of a job so they knew that that's what you were doing but you told them that right but not with withstanding these concerns that your father had were they friendly towards Lambert yeah so just going back actually I didn't Liv in the squat alera so probably you know
02:36:01 the squat alera so probably you know when I went to visit when we went to visit them I was still living in suan point or the previous house marjerie par road so I was actually renting so as far as my parents were concerned I was really still living on my Lancaster
02:36:12 really still living on my Lancaster University friends and I was only like 25 so yeah um you know not quite at the you know it wasn't too late for me to be settling down and having children sure
02:36:23 settling down and having children sure um but they were you know expecting me to go in that start and they certainly didn't expect and he was quite scruffy and he didn't have a job and he didn't have a degree apparently he
02:36:37 didn't have a degree apparently he didn't you know he wasn't it just wasn't the right direction but nevertheless they could see how much I loved him yeah and how much he apparently Lov me yeah
02:36:51 and how much he apparently Lov me yeah and so you know they accepted that and I did eventually tell them that was stuff you know maybe I don't know at what point but later on that it was stuff he was up to that was in in a higher you know more important than having a professional career I never told them
02:37:07 professional career I never told them what yeah yeah but they were kind to him they and they were supportive of your relationship with you know my mom went out of her way to find vegan recipes for him yeah it's a joke um moving on now to your sister
02:37:26 joke um moving on now to your sister your younger sister um I understand that you made seever several visits to your younger sister CU I always you know been very close to her right um can I bring up actually [Music]
02:37:36 [Music] 37012 tab
02:37:39 37012 tab A3 it's a photograph uh page five please and it's the exhibit I so page five please
02:37:56 and this these are photographs I understand miss Harvey of Lambert with your sister yeah on these visits yeah um and again when you visited your sister did you stay in her house with lbert
02:38:10 did you stay in her house with lbert yeah and again was she welcoming oh 100% yeah you
02:38:14 yeah you describe your younger sister being not quite as enamored of Lambert as other people yeah uh and you refer to a sort of discussion that turns into an
02:38:27 of discussion that turns into an argument yeah on a car Journey can you just tell us a little bit more about that yeah so that was well after this so it was yeah you know At first she liked him and
02:38:39 him and everything but yeah she just I don't know there was some some like minor little argument and she she was upset she you know we've both had difficult some difficulties in our lives and
02:38:52 some difficulties in our lives and you know she got upset and I think I we fell out a little bit as well because and then she said she didn't really like Bob um yeah how did you feel about when she said that well she was the first person who's ever said that to me but I
02:39:10 person who's ever said that to me but I should have listened did you say why she didn't like him she said she thought he was a bit false but an over Jolly um moving on now to a visit your grandmother yeah you say that you took
02:39:28 grandmother yeah you say that you took Lambert to meet your 99y old grandmother why did you want your grandmother and Lambert to meet well at that time we were going to my parents um and I thought my grand granny might you know be going to die soon because she was so old and it was really important to me
02:39:43 old and it was really important to me that he met her and she met him because I thought he was going to be my life partner yeah and I wanted I wanted them to meet you know because I thought this this was my future this was my future yeah yeah um and your grandmother told
02:40:00 yeah yeah um and your grandmother told you that he had a good heart yeah I mean she was a big Catholic you know she was a
02:40:01 a massive
02:40:03 massive Catholic um you know she lived in a council house all her life she didn't have any money they were very hardworking you know very
02:40:20 hardworking you know very religious um and she was lovely yeah and she'd come to live in Conor key on all people's home right so my dad could um look after her you
02:40:26 you know and it was important to you that she and Lambert met oh yeah I mean she used to come and stay with my mom and dad from the old people's home you know nearly every weekend but not on that
02:40:41 nearly every weekend but not on that occasion cuz we were there um you know taking up the spare bedroom but um so
02:40:51 taking up the spare bedroom but um so yeah it was really important to me that he met her and that she met him um you also went on lots of little trips and holidays lamber I understand um I'll bring this Photograph up uh it's ucpi
02:41:08 37012 page one please it's exhibit a so it's at tab A3 but it's a photograph um this is a photograph so the top one at a I understand this to be Lambert at
02:41:19 I understand this to be Lambert at glenberg yeah is that right yes so that's the end of [Music]
02:41:22 [Music] June
02:41:24 June 1987 yeah yeah um just a quick sorry to keep going back to this does this assist at all with the deams questions I was asking you about trying to orientate
02:41:39 asking you about trying to orientate that at all if not please don't worry not really no fine don't worry just thought I'd mention that um this trip to glastenbury was this with mainly Bob's friends or no it's just me and him oh just the two of you
02:41:56 yeah can I ask did he take drugs at all at Glen B did he smoke no he when I was with him he never ever smoked any drugs no he did he did used to smoke rollups um with licorice purpose right that's
02:42:07 um with licorice purpose right that's what I remember he never did you ever say anything about smoking weed no he why of he might have done can remember what he said
02:42:21 done can remember what he said he might have said that other PE you know
02:42:23 know sometimes like if he was in a situation where people were smoking he might have a little bit but then wouldn't inhale it or something like that he wasn't interest he said he didn't like didn't
02:42:34 interest he said he didn't like didn't like what the effect it had right okay and he wasn't really a big drinker either but he did like to have a roll
02:42:47 up uh another Expedition you went on was the Cambridge Folk Festival yeah if we could bring up it's the same exhibit but just page two please same document
02:43:03 sorry and C and D I understand these to be photos of you at that festival and that took place July 88 is that correct um you say in your witness statement Miss Harvey that it's very difficult for you to look at these photos now can I ask you why that is
02:43:17 photos now can I ask you why that is well because it was very very intimate time we had um and looking back you know some intimacy you know went further than I
02:43:28 intimacy you know went further than I would have had with other anybody else yeah in my past and it was totally initiated by him right so it was very passion I would almost say it was an
02:43:41 passion I would almost say it was an assault actually oh I would put it that strongly what that took place this weekend
02:43:46 weekend yeah yeah it did something to me that I hadn't consented to yeah and so it's very difficult all right to think back to it because at the time it seemed so
02:44:01 time it seemed so special right but as I say now it feels like an assault right that was not consented to yeah yeah I'm very sorry to hear that so one of these people is you know on this Cipher
02:44:17 Cipher list is always one of the people yeah just that sat there yeah BLX okay is that gray t-shirt yeah wearing thank you very much are you all right to carry on yeah I
02:44:30 all right to carry on yeah I am um moving on briefly to what Lambert told you about past relationships we touched upon this but I just want to mention the person that we're calling CTS so this is who is referred
02:44:45 CTS so this is who is referred to in the in his witness statement as sexual
02:44:48 sexual relationship oh yeah I've never met this person never met just very quickly did he tell you anything about this relationship yeah if it was the person who he went out with
02:45:01 it was the person who he went out with before me apart from Jack before Jackie yeah yeah yeah he did he he seemed to really be quite fond of her right um yeah and she'd gone off to University so did he give you the impression that's why the relationship had ended totally right so it was circum stance rather
02:45:19 right so it was circum stance rather than yeah right falling out I think her she was younger as well yeah
02:45:23 yeah and yeah he told me that they planted a tree together to Mark the end of their relationship which I thought was a bit stoppy and he showed you a photograph he did
02:45:38 did um you say in deep deception that you tried to press him further on this relationship but that he was a closed book is that yeah but I mean he did tell me about it
02:45:50 me about it and I think I was you know he only told me because I was pressing him on it so the closed book bit yeah he told me it so was he was quite open about it okay um but what you've told us now that's
02:46:08 um but what you've told us now that's the extent of what he told you about it is that correct yeah he's yeah pretty much but he did seem to be quite you know at the time he was he was sort of upset about you know her right you know it seemed like maybe he didn't want it
02:46:24 it seemed like maybe he didn't want it it's finish I don't know but obviously I have no idea it was all piz anyway but um that was the Imp it said I got the impression that it was a proper you know a proper you have proper feelings for her
02:46:32 her yeah all right um now I talked to you earlier about what Lambert told you about Jackie yeah
02:46:44 what Lambert told you about Jackie yeah I want to explore something with you now about his contact with TBS y
02:46:53 you say in your witness statement that and you've said it in evidence today that you met TBS a few times during your relationship with Lambert and you went on some days out together yeah now we've restricted his age for privacy yeah but
02:47:08 restricted his age for privacy yeah but when you went on these days out was he a toddler you describe him as a todler so he was walking yeah it was at least one and a half now can you help us miss Harvey with when was the last time you saw BBS with
02:47:20 saw BBS with Lambert I think it
02:47:28 was maybe SE August August or something is
02:47:30 is 1987 I didn't see him at all in 1988 right that I can remember all when I was living at margerie Park
02:47:45 Road can you help us with what Bob told you about well sorry did as far as you're concerned that was the last time you saw Bob and TVs yeah but do you know what did Bob
02:48:06 TVs yeah but do you know what did Bob tell you about the last time he saw TBS well he gave me the impression that um Jackie had met somebody else and that when was
02:48:10 that well I had the feeling that it was
02:48:19 around March or something by March March 88 or February 88 um but I got the feel he didn't I don't know why I didn't
02:48:31 didn't I don't know why I didn't suddenly I would suddenly yeah I mean I wasn't seeing
02:48:41 seeing TBS Beyond 1987 I can't remember exactly when sure but it was mainly in the summer of 87 that I saw him right um potentially in 87 but certainly not in
02:48:54 potentially in 87 but certainly not in 88 and quite early on when I moved to Su point now Lambert and Jackie both agree that contact between Lambert and Jackie
02:49:11 that contact between Lambert and Jackie and TBS stopped in October 87 yeah that sounds about right so does that sound right yeah it does cuz that's what I just said it was about September yeah
02:49:16 yeah and again sorry I haven't structured the questions very well but when cont stopped in October 87 yeah what did Lambert say then about the reason
02:49:27 Lambert say then about the reason contact had stopped yeah because she'd met somebody else he said that in October
02:49:29 October 87 well I can't remember when he said it but I mean I would want to know wouldn't I it wouldn't make sense for me not just not to ask or to say anything or
02:49:43 not to ask or to say anything or potentially is potentially I do remember around February March Time him saying about the Jackie had met this other guy and that you know they were sort of being trying trying to be a family yeah and that Bob was
02:50:01 be a family yeah and that Bob was concerned for the be he wanted the best for
02:50:02 for TBS and he felt that he himself as a father wasn't a very good father because his activism was to was his most important thing
02:50:16 important thing so he was sort of quite pleased that Jackie had met this guy that could potentially be a father
02:50:31 guy that could potentially be a father um so that means that between October 87 and February March 88 when Lambert told you that Jackie met someone else he wasn't seeing TBS but he also hadn't told you why I mean I can't really remember now but I think it's possible
02:50:47 remember now but I think it's possible that Jackie had decided that she didn't want Bob to see him anymore because of his animal right his fact as his activism she maybe she was thinking he wasn't a good influence on on her son you think I might that might be wrong I can't remember specifically okay guessing because the partner thing I
02:51:03 guessing because the partner thing I only know for sure from 1988 early 1988 yeah but I do feel as though I stopped
02:51:14 yeah but I do feel as though I stopped seeing TBS yeah about September but what you just said about Jackie not wanting him to see TBS anymore because of his activism is that speculation on your part or is that a vague recollection it's it's a very vague recollection but it might be wrong so obviously I'm
02:51:25 it might be wrong so obviously I'm talking about other people's lives that are not mine yeah of um so I wouldn't want
02:51:30 want to you know even specul even speculate really I just know that I stopped did wasn't seeing him and you've mentioned Bob saying that he wanted TBS to have the best life he could possi yeah he did
02:51:42 the best life he could possi yeah he did he did he really seemed to care you know obviously care a lot about him to the best of your recollection in that period before February March when he said that Jackie had met someone
02:51:53 Jackie had met someone yeah did he express any emotion any thoughts about the fact he wasn't seeing TBS then I think he just from what I can remember he just thought it was probably better for TBS not to see him you know
02:52:11 better for TBS not to see him you know it was that was the best thing for TBS right because he was a wronger yeah right
02:52:12 right yeah
02:52:24 um very briefly Miss Harvey I'd just like to explore something that an event that happened around this time yeah so we're talking now sorry I am jumping around rather a lot this is actually the 15th 16th of October 88 so this is coming quite far on into your relationship yeah yeah
02:52:40 relationship yeah yeah um now we understand from Robin Lane's evidence that that weekend he was released from card offf prison and he
02:52:53 released from card offf prison and he had a small get together a party to Cate that was thrown by someone else on his do you remember that yes I do and we understand you were there that week I was can you tell us at that stage how did you know Robin was that through
02:53:08 did you know Robin was that through Lambert or but uh Lambert had introduced me to him as I sort of said earlier he even before I met him he was talking about him a lot and thought I'd really like him and we get on well and in fact we did right um but yeah um Robin when
02:53:20 we did right um but yeah um Robin when he gave his evidence he didn't remember but I remember that Lambert introduced
02:53:31 but I remember that Lambert introduced me to him when we went to a pob in South London yeah and we immediately you know were talking and I even remember Bob s going off and talking to someone else and we were just talking yeah um yeah he hit it off yeah um this party in Cardiff can you tell us
02:53:45 um this party in Cardiff can you tell us what how many people were there what was the vibe what was the General it was like really good good fun okay it was sort of yeah it was like it was amazing it was really good fun really good time
02:53:57 it was really good fun really good time it was a really beautiful house we were staying in lovely grounds yeah it was like heaven you know it's fantastic how many really nice food
02:54:08 many really nice food provided you know they didn't you know was offering to pay contribute some money and the person didn't want to can you remember who threw the Party Don't name names but who that person was well no I can remember them
02:54:27 no I can remember them yeah but I couldn't no I mean I've been reminded who they are by other people since but no I just can you say what role they had I thought was um a solicitor right F yeah um so it was a lovely scene it was lovely yeah we had a fantastic time yeah and it was a good
02:54:40 fantastic time yeah and it was a good time essentially so there was no from what you could tell business not about
02:54:54 what you could tell business not about it it was all about celebrations 100% so um I'd just like to bring up um
02:54:57 um a no I'm not going to bring that up sorry I'm going to read a section yeah of a Lambert report on that Gathering
02:55:13 of a Lambert report on that Gathering from that weekend yeah and this is what he wrote during the weekend the 15th 16th of October 1988 leading Al activists met in Cardiff and py pool South Wales in addition to celebrations
02:55:27 South Wales in addition to celebrations regarding the release of imprisonment of comrades Robin Lane and privacy privacy there were some important tactical and theoretical discussions from what you witnessed is that accurate not at all I I don't know I mean
02:55:37 I mean potentially I think we went there's a photo of was in a pub yes um in the beer garden I do have a little sort of memory of
02:55:50 of so maybe three three or four people including
02:55:54 including Lambert yeah moving away and having a little
02:55:55 little chat
02:55:58 chat and thinking it might be about some political thing but it was only about five minutes right um and that was the day after yeah we've got a photograph of that actually I don't think I need to bring out but there's a photograph of
02:56:11 bring out but there's a photograph of you Lambert and Robert Robin Lane yeah in the pub mhm that Hellen steel exhibits yeah fine so on that day you call lamb going off for a little tly yeah verly but I didn't know what it was
02:56:26 yeah verly but I didn't know what it was about or if it was about political thing but
02:56:28 but um thank you right yeah um I'm going to move on now to the end of the relationship and the
02:56:42 end of the relationship and the aftermath are you all right to is the stenographer will right to carry
02:56:53 on you okay all right sorry um so we'll move oh
02:56:57 fine okay sorry apologies
02:57:04 um I've got about 45 minutes left to go is that going to
02:57:09 be I mean if it's all right with the chair of course no no I mean it's unreasonable to expect people performing that role to do it um without a break
02:57:20 that role to do it um without a break for it is I'm sorry we're going to have to have another another break how long would you like 10 minutes 10 minutes 10 minutes right okay thanks sir
02:57:47 right
03:14:16 e e
03:15:14 yes M Miss Harvey sorry one thing I forgot to ask you about the party of the 15th on the weekend of the 15th 16th of October yeah to celebrate Robin Lane's Rel yes just one quick question was it your impression that Lambert was drunk and or stoned at that party
03:15:29 and or stoned at that party no um I'd like to move on now to the end of the relationship and how it ended I understand from your witness
03:15:41 ended I understand from your witness statement that it ended in January 1989 you describe it in as following both prolonged and distressing
03:15:48 circumstances I referred to this earlier on one occasion Lambert went to visit Jeff Shephard in prison and you say on his return he was very Sullen and you say that although he
03:16:01 Sullen and you say that although he refused to say anything about it it was clear that the visit had left him feeling really down do you remember this
03:16:13 mhm this was October 1988 can you help us with when in October please don't worry if not no okay
03:16:22 does it follow from your saying that he refused to say anything about it that you tried to talk to him about why the visit had made him yeah I mean I think it might have been later in uh October um well normally he was so happy and
03:16:37 um well normally he was so happy and jolly and so it was unusual for him not to be yeah and to be worried about something um so was out of character yeah yeah and that concerned you
03:16:48 yeah yeah and that concerned you yeah but he refused on that when he returned he wouldn't open up about no I wouldn't really tell me what it was
03:17:00 wouldn't really tell me what it was about you say the following that day though he did open up a little bit and that he said he was going to have to leave at short notice is that
03:17:16 have to leave at short notice is that correct yeah can you tell us how he came out with that well that's when he started so
03:17:20 yeah for the first time that we were going to not be able to be together going forward and he was going to have to go because he said he was in trouble
03:17:32 to go because he said he was in trouble with the police did he say why he was in trouble with the police can't specifically remember I
03:17:40 mean I can't really but I mean it would make sense that it was related to deons but I don't think it it was but did you say anything about parking tickets at this stay well he did I mean
03:17:53 tickets at this stay well he did I mean that sort of my first impression that it was like all these said he had hundreds of parking tickets but then you won't move abroad because of hundreds of parking tickets but I think it was a cumulative thing like of all different things that could have been speculation
03:18:05 things that could have been speculation on my part I mean he certainly told me I had hundreds parking tickets just as a small digression yeah did he get lots of parking tickets when you were with him no he didn't get any but right no these
03:18:19 no he didn't get any but right no these are historic parking tickets apparently yeah
03:18:22 yeah um your 2018 statement actually you pinpoint this discussion so the one where he said he was going to have to go on the run to the 31st of October 1988
03:18:33 on the run to the 31st of October 1988 does that ring a about yeah it was kind of an estimation I think there was something written in my diary yes um
03:18:45 yeah when he told you that he was going to have to go on the Run what was his demeanor
03:18:48 demeanor well he was regretful like he said he couldn't imagine us not being together either and how did you react to him telling you that he had to do this
03:19:04 telling you that he had to do this obviously I was extremely distraught and upset well I I and I tried to persuade him to let me go with him
03:19:18 right now I understand Miss Harvey that at this stage he he suggested that you move house is that correct yeah so can you tell us what happened what did he say yeah so if that was before the
03:19:30 he say yeah so if that was before the time when the special Branch came and read the
03:19:31 read the house yeah he um he told me that he thought he was in trouble with the police and that they were on to
03:19:47 the police and that they were on to him and that he didn't want me to be mixed up in it or to get affected by it and obviously I you know I was like my career and everything I
03:19:58 I was like my career and everything I didn't want C last thing I wanted was any police anything to do with the police I had done anything wrong apart from being with him which was pretty stupid
03:20:07 stupid um so I I I wanted to move out because and he said oh you don't have to you can still live here but just be somewhere
03:20:20 just be somewhere else what did he mean by well I mean I could still you know we could still see each other just as much we could still be together it wasn't like we were splitting up in any way it was more you know I got the feeling it was more for
03:20:41 know I got the feeling it was more for my safety right joke but um from my part I didn't want anything any trouble at work I didn't want anyone at work I didn't want any trouble at work so he gave you the impression that that he expected the police to come to Sean
03:20:53 expected the police to come to Sean Point well that there was a possibility right
03:20:54 right and so you were happy to move I mean Happy by this time it was there was the people in this squad you know they the the sack road is
03:21:05 the sack road is that they um I even think this is what
03:21:17 that they um I even think this is what one of them came around and Bob rang her up and she came around and said look do you want to come and move we've got a spare room do you want to come yeah and live there for a bit so I don't know what he said to her but she wasn't an activist but she was part of the squatting
03:21:32 squatting community and um yeah yeah and you liked this person oh yeah I thought she was great so you agreed to act yeah I really wanted to be friends with these women and
03:21:40 and yeah and you understood when Bob was making this recommendation that yeah he was acting in he was making the suggestion out of concern yeah for your interests yeah
03:21:51 interests yeah yeah um I understand also that you believe that the move to sack Road would be temporary only is that right well I think by then he started
03:22:06 right well I think by then he started talking about Le well yeah I thought was going to go off to Spain with him well we'll come to when he told you that but at this stage or will establish when he
03:22:17 at this stage or will establish when he told you that but at this stage in your witness statement it suggests that he hadn't yet mentioned Spain he just said no he hadn't mentioned Spain he had to keep a low profile because the police were after him is that correct yeah it was temporary that's right so it was
03:22:30 was temporary that's right so it was really until he felt the police it was off the police radar as it were and it was safe for me to move back so I left most of my stuff there right fine and
03:22:45 most of my stuff there right fine and but you did move well I did and and and like I really want to see these you'll be with these women they were so lovely and such so nice and yeah and I didn't really like Su point that much but that's not why I moved um it was because
03:23:03 that's not why I moved um it was because he told me to and he suggested it and he got this woman to come around he was really friendly and say we've got a spare room come in love with us and you trusted him yeah um do you know whether
03:23:15 trusted him yeah um do you know whether Natalie North and Howard were told that the police might be looking for I don't know that at all I don't I don't think there were I think it was just sort of
03:23:34 there were I think it was just sort of privately to me fine because of my work right and the people in sack Road you say they weren't activists were they friends of Lamberts yes so one of the PE one or two of the people in the house were act were sort of potentially activists like in
03:23:45 sort of potentially activists like in terms of hunt sabb and stuff potentially and animal rights but the women there weren't they were just sort
03:23:55 just sort of yeah there because the you know they were sort of bit Punky and things and into the music and yeah living an alternative lifestyle an alternative lifestyle
03:24:05 lifestyle yeah now I want to explore with you the night in mid November when you went to season Point afterward oh yeah yeah um
03:24:17 season Point afterward oh yeah yeah um can you recall this is the The Raid yeah can you recall when in November Miss Harvey again don't worry about no um when you went to Satan point on this date what did you find there well
03:24:31 this date what did you find there well yeah first what state was Natalie North in she was upset but not that upset was she there alone or was how there yeah she was there alone and what did she tell you it happened she said
03:24:48 did she tell you it happened she said the police had been round and raded the flow and it was special branch and that they had looked in Bob's room and you know obviously I was previously
03:25:00 and you know obviously I was previously living in that room yeah as well and all my stuff was in there and particularly apparently she said that they picked up my shoes and said who's are these shoes and that she said oh they're they're
03:25:11 they're blinders and I was like really shocked and horrified cuz I thought they had my name name my first name and I said did you give did you say my surname you know and she said
03:25:23 my surname you know and she said no and I just couldn't yeah Special Branch you know I mean I'd only seen heard about them on TV programs so it was your understanding
03:25:37 programs so it was your understanding that they told Natalie North that they were officers from special bro absolutely special Branch you know wild
03:25:48 absolutely special Branch you know wild was you know to me that's the top police what on Earth would they be interested in me for my shoes do you know whether or not how they gained entry to the flat did they kick the door down or did Natalie North let them in I think potentially she let
03:26:00 let them in I think potentially she let them in because I don't remember the the door being knocked out it's quite sturdy the doors in those Flats did she tell you how many officers came in I got the
03:26:15 you how many officers came in I got the impression it was like three or four and was the flat in a state of
03:26:24 disarray not too bad it wasn't like they'd ripped the place apart but like like
03:26:28 like the like you know the things were off the bed the bed had been stripped and did she say how long they'd been there for no I got the impression it wasn't a long time though because I
03:26:39 wasn't a long time though because I think they were looking for him yeah that was going to be my next question did she tell you that that's what they told her yeah they were looking for him and what did she say in response to he not
03:26:56 she say in response to he not here did they ask her where he was do you
03:27:00 you know what if they did she said she didn't
03:27:02 didn't know we know uh that she told you that they looked at your shoes yeah did you get the impression they looked at gone through your other possessions of
03:27:19 through your other possessions of yours I just remember her saying they picked up my shoes said who do these shoes belong
03:27:25 to did you have photographs there at seatan Point at that time of you and Bob looking like a couple I can't actually remember but potentially yeah because I I I know I still had quite a bit of stuff
03:27:43 still had quite a bit of stuff there so it's possible that they could have in the course of this raid found such photos yeah that's yeah
03:27:50 now after this when you found out this had happened what did you do did you stay at seatan Point did you go back to sack road yeah I went to sack Road sa
03:28:06 sack road yeah I went to sack Road sa Road did you have any way of contacting Lambert well no we didn't have mobile phones
03:28:07 phones so no did you know where he might
03:28:17 be no we could have been at work or I don't know right but you didn't know essentially I mean I think I was probably intending to meet him because otherwise that's why I went around there cuz I'd moved out had I by then yes you've gone to half moved out um though
03:28:33 you've gone to half moved out um though my my stuff was still there including my shoes um so I was obviously expecting him to come but obviously he wasn't going to do now yeah um I think she said she might have said she got a
03:28:47 said she might have said she got a message to him to tell him the house had been red right so I don't know how she did that but that's what she told you she and roughly how long after you had
03:28:58 she and roughly how long after you had moved out well be it you left a lot of your stuff there of SE and point did this raid take place oh literally I think it was no more than two weeks if not less than a week right what was your emotional state when
03:29:11 right what was your emotional state when you found out that there had been a raid and that special Bron lbert I was really scar
03:29:17 scar scared I was scared for myself and scared for him what were you scared of if that doesn't seem like a well I was scared of the police of my being in trouble with the police my dad a good
03:29:37 trouble with the police my dad a good ballistic and I W I didn't want that I my career you know I want my my get a reference and I don't know it's just like and also you have these secret files don't they if you people i' heard about that and I thought I was going to have my name in a secret file
03:29:48 have my name in a secret file yeah like that would Blacklist me for something yeah and even later when I went to be a midwife I was worried about it that you know there might be something like when I got
03:29:59 something like when I got a you know crb check and stuff oh my God you know but then you know I've never done anything so but because of that I thought they they might know who I was you know not who I was but that you were Ted by your Association yeah
03:30:14 Ted by your Association yeah exactly um Looking Back Now and giv what you know now why do you think that raid took place
03:30:20 well I think it was probably something to do with uh the deams thing or he'd been in trouble doing something else I soon to remember like
03:30:35 something else I soon to remember like he told me he wasn't doing any activism all through at8 and then at some point he told me admitted that he had done something but I can't remember what right and that that was what he was in trouble
03:30:46 trouble about if not the parking tickets you in a combination he didn't specifically tell me right but I didn't want to know anyway yeah I already was
03:31:14 in
03:41:44 e e
03:42:40 okay there's not that much more to go there must be no disclosure or publication made of the information stated during the hearing ing uh today between 5:05 and
03:42:53 between 5:05 and 57 those in the back row will know the ropes I see thumbs
03:43:00 up um Miss Harvey
03:43:02 Harvey briefly I understand from your witness statement that it was your understanding that Lambert parted company with his
03:43:13 that Lambert parted company with his activist colleagues yeah around November 1988 yeah and that's when he told them he was going on the Run yeah um did he
03:43:27 he was going on the Run yeah um did he from from what you've been you were told by then did they know then did he tell them he was going to Spain or did he just say he was going I don't really know I didn't really
03:43:40 see don't worry I mean I did see Robin and
03:43:49 and Paul um when did you see but I can't Contin to see them after yeah who'd gone
03:43:50 gone [Music]
03:43:54 [Music] um and they told you I just can't remember I
03:43:59 mean I mean I don't think I would have told
03:44:01 told them I don't know when he exactly mentioned SP to be honest that's fine but just on the run you know yeah but I suppose my point is that he told them he was going on the run and part a company
03:44:14 was going on the run and part a company with them before he part a company with you oh yeah definitely definitely because yeah subse I didn't talk about it but
03:44:25 it but subsequently yeah had some sort of minor trouble convincing them that I did see him in
03:44:29 him in January cuz they thought that no no he went you know I said no actually it
03:44:50 went you know I said no actually it didn't I I still did see him in December and January okay understood and we went on that holiday yeah yeah yeah um I'd like to bring up MPS 0 7 37136 so this is tab A3 uh Pages 3 to 4
03:45:05 please uh this is the letter that Lambert wrote to you after the raid yeah not the final letter um yes Pages 3 to four yes thank you uh I'll just read that out so the address at the top is gray Road
03:45:18 address at the top is gray Road Wednesday afternoon and he says Belinda I hope you're not feeling as Dazed and Confused as I am I hope you've been able to carry on with the routine of daily life if everyone at work gets the wrong wages next week I wouldn't be at all
03:45:38 wages next week I wouldn't be at all surprised I hope most of all that we can talk this something over together soon when we know what we really feel and think also if you don't mind I think I might benefit from talking to Simon who's got a good clear mind as long as I don't buy him too much Stella but I
03:45:53 don't buy him too much Stella but I haven't got his phone number could you post it to me or drop it round please take care I love you let me know if there's anything you want me to do or not do
03:46:00 not do Bob it's not dated but can you help us with when you
03:46:11 dated but can you help us with when you received this letter so would have been say a week after the raide
03:46:18 raide and is it it right that you hadn't seen him yeah so this was the first you'd heard from him since the raid yeah and I yeah I thought he' moved out of gr Rod so well that was going to be my next question in I don't know yeah
03:46:36 my next question in I don't know yeah well when he says that he wants to speak to Simon does he mean Simon to May yes and when he says I haven't got his phone number could you post it to me or drop it round so did you post his number or drop it round to Graham Road oh yeah clearly I did did you find it odd that he was back
03:46:50 did did you find it odd that he was back at Graham Road given that you helped him move out yeah but I don't yeah I can't remember feeling surprised like oh he back at gra Road I
03:47:06 Road I think I think yeah in just reestablished his I don't know yeah I can't I can't remember but so he I take from that that he gave you no explanation about how he came to be back at gr and r no but yeah he was back there he had to
03:47:21 no but yeah he was back there he had to be somewhere I suppose yeah um but yeah I was quite was quite surprised cuz I thought he moved out of there yeah but it turned out that he still had some connection with it and was back there but I mean it seem
03:47:32 and was back there but I mean it seem strange CU surely the police would look for him there well that was going to be my next question you didn't say anything about the fact the police were looking for him but he was at in the no as far as um I was aware he was living at
03:47:47 as um I was aware he was living at certain points I I didn't know anything about that the police knew anything about gra road so it could be as far as I knew and Anonymous place I mean I've subsequently heard that maybe grro got raided as well but I don't know if
03:48:00 raided as well but I don't know if that's true and I didn't know about it at the time it's only what I've heard well gry Andro did get raided we know that it did in September 87 oh in September 87 yeah around after
03:48:12 87 oh in September 87 yeah around after deums but anyway don't worry the fact of the matter is but this is see point was 88 it got red yeah SE and point yeah but great anyway don't wor getting down it's fine but um so no you can't specifically
03:48:27 fine but um so no you can't specifically recall dropping round Simon's number but you think you did maybe I do remember that that he told me it was RA is now uh but so say that again so do you recall
03:48:43 but so say that again so do you recall going to Graham Road and dropping around Simon's number or I must I can't remember it how did you feel when you got this letter you know now you mention it I
03:48:55 letter you know now you mention it I think I did take it round right yeah I think by then I was driving I think I had a car by then yeah okay how did you feel when you got this
03:49:05 got this letter well glad first of all glad glad that he was I knew where he was and he was in touch with me um so yeah reliev to hear from him really yeah yeah
03:49:30 um lamber in his inquiry witness statement says he has no recollection of a raid on season point right do you is it your evidence that he knew at the time that season Point had been
03:49:38 raided or do you not know that I don't know it's stuff was there uh yeah because he went on the Run did he when you saw him next did you talk about the
03:49:55 did you talk about the raid yeah I think we probably did I mean but can you specifically recall talking about the raid no but I think that was the
03:49:56 the reason why he gone on the run right but then why he gone on the run to gr road I don't know I was very far um you say
03:50:08 don't know I was very far um you say that in late November 1988 this is in your statement that Simon tamaine got into touch with you to let you know that Lambert was staying with him in
03:50:21 Lambert was staying with him in Greenwich yeah so I don't know how I you know I thought he was staying there quite a while but you know in Simon's statement it's not well the two State his two statements are a bit
03:50:32 his two statements are a bit contradictory actually but M yeah he was staying there staying at different places right but one of the places he was staying was at Simon's right and at my understanding was he wasn't staying with any activist people okay and that was deliberately yeah because they
03:50:48 was deliberately yeah because they didn't they all thought he'd gone right okay um so I don't know who he was staying with but my understanding was he was M St with Simon okay and did Lambert tell you why he decided to stay with
03:51:00 tell you why he decided to stay with Simon yeah because it was a safe place to stay and the police wouldn't be able to trace him to that to there and as far as you recall Simon was happy to have him
03:51:10 him there I think he wasn't delighted because equally he was just
03:51:21 delighted because equally he was just like a law abiding like me and he didn't he had his career as well he didn't you know we didn't want to be all this trouble but I think it was out of loyalty to me and also friendship to Bob because by then you know he was friends with him independently as well so it was again he was under his spell yeah as
03:51:34 again he was under his spell yeah as well yeah um when you next saw Lambert
03:51:46 well yeah um when you next saw Lambert after the raid what sort of a estate was Lambert in it didn't seem just seemed completely normal I mean I was completely Ang stridden and he was just like his usual Jolly self I I couldn't wow he's really seing it
03:51:59 seing it well did you say that to him yeah and what was his response to
03:52:12 that basically he just wanted to have to be intimate with me right he wanted you know he was just so glad to see me and wanted to be intimate right
03:52:22 you say in your witness statement that he told you you were an ridden and he sought to reassure you yeah by saying that Simon's place was safe yeah but
03:52:36 that Simon's place was safe yeah but that he also told you not to tell anyone oh God yeah so from that I understand not to tell anyone he was there yeah and that he also told you not to trust him anyone yeah so how did that affect you
03:52:51 anyone yeah so how did that affect you being told not to trust anyone and not to tell start become quite paranoid really I mean I remember going around there one day on the tube and like feeling I was being followed and like
03:53:06 feeling I was being followed and like waiting for the two doors like I waed on one platform and then waited like till the tube doors were nearly shut and then ran across the platform and jumped on
03:53:18 ran across the platform and jumped on the tube just to make sure I wasn't you know cuz I I had a feeling I was being followed um yeah and I became a bit parent I don't want to be again CH I've done anything it's ridiculous yeah so you're very unett it was just
03:53:33 you're very unett it was just awful um you say that over the course of December 88 you visited Lambert regularly is that at Simon's place in Greenwich so roughly what sort of time period do you remember that as being was
03:53:53 period do you remember that as being was that because I know you went to Dorset a couple of weeks yeah two or three weeks before you went to Dorset yeah
03:53:54 yeah and I think at one place in your statement you suggest that Lambert stays at Simon's place for two months then is that a mistake I think that's an over I think that was my first impression
03:54:08 think that was my first impression before I Really Right thought about it but now you think it's more like two
03:54:19 but now you think it's more like two weeks it depends in November when it was don't I mean it's yeah depends where we went because I think so I thought I thought we've gone to Dorset or whever it was I can't remember now s's mom's yeah dors apparently um I thought we'd gone the
03:54:30 apparently um I thought we'd gone the two weeks before December or the week before I mean the end of December before Christmas but I think when I read Sim's statement last
03:54:43 statement last night it said something about the middle of December yeah it's a little his statement is slightly confusing but he says that he last Saw Lambert around the 15th or the 16th of December and then he says following the
03:54:56 December and then he says following the trip to Dorset but I wasn't quite clear if he meant Dorset was before or after the yeah I think he's he's he's doesn't remember it I mean it's again when he gave that statement it was a long time
03:55:08 gave that statement it was a long time ago and his mom by then had died so my memory of it is that we went for two weeks in December at yeah at the end of the last two weeks of December that was my memory because his mom was
03:55:27 that was my memory because his mom was on holiday abroad yeah okay well we'll get to the trip to Dorset but in the period in which you were visiting Lambert in Greenwich yeah um I understand from what you just said and from your winner it was very passionate physical relationship very passionate
03:55:40 passionate always
03:55:47 always um now again from your witness statement you say that one night when you visited Lambert was that at Greenwich yeah he told you that the police had been looking for him again and that they had caught up with him again about his overdue parking VES is that
03:56:05 correct did I write that yeah that's in your witness I think I was probably trying to to some extent at first when all this came out I was trying to cover up the fact that I knew anything about devam very slightly what
03:56:14 what because I was ashamed and embarrassed and I didn't want people at work to find out right I mean I have recently retired though I'm still working there two days a week yeah but I didn't want anyone to
03:56:26 a week yeah but I didn't want anyone to know at work and and it's because I was still trying to get promoted at work and things yeah um yeah so that was I was probably
03:56:39 um yeah so that was I was probably ashamed and embarrassed but now I want to be all open what do you mean in between giving your witness statement and giving evidence yeah so when you gave your witness statement you embarrassed about revealing yeah that I
03:56:50 embarrassed about revealing yeah that I knew anything about that you knew about de especially that I knew about it beforehand I was like really ashamed and and yeah I didn't want anyone to yeah I mean I was under his spell completely
03:57:03 mean I was under his spell completely you are clear in your witness statement though that yeah you say that you knew about deam oh gosh yeah I am yeah so yes so it
03:57:13 so it can't so it's I can't really remember to be honest I mean what it just seems a bit inong that you go on the run for parking findes so I can't believe that I would think that but I think that's what he Pro he told me but I I think deep
03:57:26 he Pro he told me but I I think deep down I thought well no cuz you seem to have got off completely got off the devim thing yeah and it had been quite some time before so I
03:57:37 some time before so I think yeah I'm getting a bit don't worry you know well there's a lot of information and yeah it's all getting a bit um it's confusing so I don't want to start being inconsistent now and clear don't worry
03:57:53 inconsistent now and clear don't worry um can you recall when he told you that the police were after him and they caught up they were catching up with him again can did he tell you how he had found this out like had he heard it from someone else how he found out that the
03:58:04 someone else how he found out that the police were after were looking for him again CU I think the idea is that this was subsequent to the raid on Sean Point he'd got another indication that the police were on his tail looking back it
03:58:22 police were on his tail looking back it was clearly just an excuse wasn't it but um I can't remember what he said and he told you at this stage that he had to disappear yeah and he told you that he
03:58:34 disappear yeah and he told you that he was going to Valencia is that correct so this could have been quite late on like when we went to dorsa right so this is December 8 yeah oh yeah definitely in December um you say that at this time he said nothing about his brother sorry I think I forgot to cover this
03:58:46 sorry I think I forgot to cover this earlier actually but that when he was telling you about his family yeah at the beginning of the relationship he told you that he had a brother in Valencia is that right so yeah I think so so you
03:58:57 that right so yeah I think so so you inferred that he was going to go and see his
03:58:58 his brother no he told me he was going to see his brother yeah did he just out of Interest did he tell you anything else about his brother like what he did for a living or anything like that no whether
03:59:12 living or anything like that no whether he was older younger no just a just his sort of shadowy brother um was this the first time that he had mentioned going to Spain yeah in December and what was your reaction Miss Harvey to his saying that
03:59:29 reaction Miss Harvey to his saying that he was going on on the run to Spain well I I was devastated and I wanted to go with
03:59:36 him you say that he commented that once he returned from Spain he would come and find you and watch you in your new happy life yeah what did you make of that at the time I thought it
03:59:50 make of that at the time I thought it was ridiculous because we were going to be together so why would you be saying that um looking back what you make of that statement well yeah I have looked back uh especially since I found out
04:00:01 back uh especially since I found out well over the years I kept expecting to see him and and I felt upset that he would come back and not tell me he was back because for quite a number of years
04:00:15 back because for quite a number of years I thought if he came back I would be off like a shot you know with him it's just again yeah crazy um and later on after I found out that it was the policeman I thought it made more sense
04:00:29 policeman I thought it made more sense because I thought yeah he a policeman he could know he's know where I was at any
04:00:39 could know he's know where I was at any time okay he could easily come and watch me I see what you mean so like he could keep tabs on you so makes more sense watch me and see who you know my children and yeah so the comment makes more sense now than it did at the time way um you went on this final trip
04:00:53 way um you went on this final trip together to Simon's mom's place in Dorset in late December yeah I understand that in the car Journey down and up until that point Lambert was Resolute that he was going
04:01:07 Lambert was Resolute that he was going on the Run alone yeah yeah is that right yeah and then what happened on that car Journey well you know I persuaded him I mean I cried my my eyes out um what did you persuade him to do or at least to proom send for me that I
04:01:22 or at least to proom send for me that I could come to Valencia as well right and agreed you know he started to agree reluctantly yeah he started yeah I know what you mean I can't live without you either right that's what you I remember him saying he couldn't live without me
04:01:36 him saying he couldn't live without me either and how did you feel when he said that well relieved I was prepared to give up everything my whole life yeah um and I think he even said I w't be able to contact my parents again
04:01:47 w't be able to contact my parents again and stuff even then I was still prepared to do it so he said that to you he said if you come to Valencia you won't be able you'll have to cut all your ties yeah and like almost take a new identity
04:01:58 yeah and like almost take a new identity I mean I can't believe I even considered such a thing my sister and everything this is
04:02:01 this is ridiculous I just I'm I just it's like I don't recognize myself from back
04:02:13 then those final days or weeks you're saying it was a couple of weeks in your Rec
04:02:16 Rec I'd never I'd never give up my sister by the way I would I would get in touch with him secretly I would never have done that yeah um that time you spent together in Dorset so obviously he'd given you these assurances on your
04:02:27 given you these assurances on your evidence that you were going to be together again yeah so did that enable you to enjoy that period inors because you didn't think it was the end I
04:02:39 you didn't think it was the end I wouldn't say yeah we did have a nice time because actually we sort of pretended it wasn't happening I just carried on as
04:02:53 carried on as though yeah it's something hard to face up to I I couldn't face up to it so I kind of just carried on as though it wasn't happening really yeah you just acted so lovely there you know lorth everything yeah was lovely sorry it was
04:03:06 everything yeah was lovely sorry it was lovely and again we were having a lot of intim intimacy and it just seemed impossible that it was going to end really yeah and his demeanor did he seem his normal self yeah
04:03:19 yeah um so when you got back from Dorset when was that roughly so you think was that after Christmas before before Christmas and then did you see
04:03:34 before Christmas and then did you see him again between that period and your final farewell in Finsbury Park no I think I saw him maybe one other time in Finsbury Park potentially briefly but I can't swear on that um did got a feeling there were two
04:03:46 um did got a feeling there were two meetings in Finsbury Park but the second one was the final one right okay fine so you think you met him twice in J potentially but definitely the yeah I can't completely remember when you met
04:04:01 can't completely remember when you met him in Finsbury Park did he give you any idea where he'd been staying in that period no I didn't know where he was staying at all right um can you just tell us briefly that final meeting in Finsbury Park you you understood then
04:04:23 Finsbury Park you you understood then that after that immediately he was going to Spain yeah right and that he said he was going to get get in touch with me did he give you after a little while fine so that was going to be my next question did he give you any sense of how long it would be before he expected to get in touch with you he just said he needed to get settled
04:04:35 just said he needed to get settled down I kind of expected to be I mean I did get a letter but I expected it to be sooner than it was but it Coulda be
04:04:50 sooner than it was but it Coulda be weeks or or couple of months right but you thought it would be couple of months
04:04:52 months um but you believed him at this stage that he would send for you you believe 100% oh completely convinced yeah and when you parted then what was
04:05:04 yeah and when you parted then what was his demeanor was he his usual self did he seem sad yeah I mean yeah it was sad
04:05:17 he seem sad yeah I mean yeah it was sad that we were going to have to spend some time apart and that I was going to have to go yeah on the run with him then he was still sort of trying to say cocc maybe you shouldn't come and no it was fine I was going to come you know yeah your mind was made up yeah um now I understand that you had
04:05:29 yeah um now I understand that you had such faith in his promise to you yeah that you made some changes in your life yeah uh so is it correct that you gave up your job at the central electricity
04:05:44 up your job at the central electricity generating board wasn't actually I think I gave him my notice um at the end of April right 89 is that yeah right so it took me a little while and it was kind of like
04:05:55 little while and it was kind of like when I didn't hear from him for a while I kind of was doing these things to try and make it happen almost I don't know I can't make sense of it but yeah I did but you thought by taking these steps it
04:06:07 but you thought by taking these steps it would make I would be ready yeah because I had to give a month's notice at work right and that would enable you to to be ready go
04:06:20 ready go um and you say that you also decided not to pursue your career in accountancy around this time is that right yeah I mean i' kind of been delaying it and putting my boss
04:06:36 delaying it and putting my boss off because again I didn't think being an accountancy was like a suitable profession for the partner of an activist you know it seemed a bit kind of capitalist yeah yeah and money oriented yeah and you felt which just
04:06:50 oriented yeah and you felt which just probably yeah odds with my friends who I was living with now and the whole sort of all these people you know all my new friends
04:07:00 friends and and and Bob's values sure and I wanted to
04:07:05 wanted to be the person who wanted me to be yeah and you thought that person was not anant yeah wouldn't be an accountant yeah um but I wish I'd done it I wish I I really always regret that but then I
04:07:18 I really always regret that but then I did have a good career as a midwife so yeah
04:07:19 yeah yeah um you say that a month
04:07:33 after your final encounter in fsy park it actually for the first time occurred to you that he might not send for you just glimmers you know I didn't want to accept it but I started glimmering oh maybe
04:07:46 maybe yeah maybe no no no he will no there's no way yeah and then you received the letter from Lambert so the final letter
04:07:58 letter from Lambert so the final letter yeah um I don't think I need to bring it up no but we're familiar with its contents but he essentially says that things aren't he doesn't feel right yeah
04:08:13 things aren't he doesn't feel right yeah about you coming to Valencia yeah um but you say that nonetheless you were confused when you read that letter well I was cuz it didn't actually say for definite yeah this is it we are not
04:08:25 definite yeah this is it we are not you're not coming it just said sort of skirted around it a bit and I remember I remember asking Paul grait to read it for me and to see what he
04:08:36 read it for me and to see what he thought and he said oh I'm sorry Belinda it really sounds to me like he's not coming back and even then I couldn't fully accept it but yeah yeah I don't know
04:08:50 know why again just stupid you know really I was just under yeah I just couldn't believe it didn't want to believe it and if it's not a stupid question yeah how do I mean you say you didn't
04:09:01 yeah how do I mean you say you didn't want to believe it you have any other emotional reaction to that
04:09:08 letter I was devastated and distra I lost a lot of confidence yeah I was distraught my mental Health everything so did was there a period in which
04:09:22 so did was there a period in which initially you didn't want to believe it but when it sunk in yeah and when it had sunk in then what happened to you what was your
04:09:34 what happened to you what was your state oh was terrible I had to go and stay with my
04:09:41 friend they looked after me how long did you stay with your friend for about a month I think I don't know I must have just been living on money that I had served up right so you weren't working at that time no because you
04:09:55 working at that time no because you didn't feel able to work yeah and I've never really signed on so yeah no I was I was at not in London
04:10:11 so yeah no I was I was at not in London I was at you know in Bristol right where my friend lived this friend of mine who I hadn't s from Lancaster University and she was very kind yeah and she put up with me crying all the time you know and just carried on you know normally and it didn't seem to impact her and she was
04:10:27 didn't seem to impact her and she was yeah yeah I'll never forget what she did she gave you Sanctuary yeah that's it period um the Ripple effects of Lambert
04:10:39 period um the Ripple effects of Lambert having done this again I won't bring it up but it's in your evidence which is the letter from your mother to you yeah dated 14th of March 1990 yeah
04:10:50 you yeah dated 14th of March 1990 yeah um I mean unless you want me to bring it up but I just no me she died in 1992 right yeah um but in that letter your mother return refers to a fracker between the two of
04:11:05 refers to a fracker between the two of you so a little disagreement round that you'd had and I understand from your witness statement that that was the first time you'd ever argued with her that you didn't have that kind of relationship not at all I'm alwaysed to argu with my dad but never with my mom and that argument related to Lambert is
04:11:30 and that argument related to Lambert is that correct yeah and that she had made a reference to his not having a proper job yeah and also by then I'd sort of told uh imp you know that he was he' been doing something and yeah potentially in trouble with the Poli and she obviously didn't like that and my dad went ballistic right you know just
04:11:42 dad went ballistic right you know just thought I was you know how could I ever have got myself involved in something like that I mean I didn't tell them the details but they knew it was something to do with activism and the police and you describe how before that point when
04:11:57 you describe how before that point when you revealed that he might have been in trouble you hadn't wanted to tell them about his activities because you didn't want them to disapprove of him that right right yeah and so in that sense your relationship with him led to your
04:12:12 your relationship with him led to your keeping secrets from your family a lot of Secrets and before you were in a relationship with Lambert had you kept secrets from your family
04:12:26 never and this letter shows on your evidence that actually lamber continued to cause division in your family
04:12:37 100% And you know y regret that she died not knowing about the truth um I understand that you met someone else in 1990 yeah and you had
04:12:50 someone else in 1990 yeah and you had your first son in 1992 yeah and after that you decided to train to be a midwife yeah um now you found out that Lambert was a police officer through
04:13:03 Lambert was a police officer through Helen Steel in 2011 yeah can you help us miss Harvey what was your immediate reaction on finding out well just again devastated felt used um
04:13:13 used um you know but for quite a long time I thought he still must have loved you know it was still a genuine relationship for quite a long time and it only grudged that gradually fell away yeah and as part of the this you know coming
04:13:26 and as part of the this you know coming to these that's why I've been coming so much just finding out new things all the time
04:13:33 time um and finding out more and more how used I was and how it just gets worse even now just gets worse all the time
04:13:47 even now just gets worse all the time yeah and is that because also the extent I was
04:13:47 I was [Music]
04:13:52 [Music] used and also you know for his targets and things you know used it's just are Beyond
04:14:10 Comprehension he says in some of his evidence that he felt there was genuine chemistry and that his having a relationship with you was not about gathering information how do you feel about him saying
04:14:30 that well I suppose genuine chemistry is not the same as caring about somebody's wellbe is it he certainly had no Integrity or consideration of my well-being or my life chances or which you you know if I wasn't so strong it would have completely ruined and he he's
04:14:46 would have completely ruined and he he's chain you know he's held me back a lot I think I would have done a lot better in my
04:14:48 my life if I hadn't
04:14:57 know has he has finding out the truth about him has that affected your self-esteem oh yes as soon as I found out I didn't get promoted again after that at work right I mean I I reached
04:15:10 that at work right I mean I I reached quite a you know good level at work I was like matron and I I didn't I couldn't go any further because of this no
04:15:20 no because I had to I had to tell them you told them I had to yeah CU could have found out yeah and um sorry okay
04:15:36 um sorry okay um yeah cuz being a midwife you have to be honest and it's in the midwife's rules yeah
04:15:47 has finding out the truth about him affected your ability to trust other people absolutely I mean it's this
04:15:56 day I don't trust anyone really except for my
04:15:58 for my sister and a couple of friends a few you know I I I saw it's like my close you know people that are friends I trust them it's like I trust
04:16:11 friends I trust them it's like I trust them most of the time and then suddenly I don't for a minute yeah I wonder
04:16:18 if you know there's other things going on yeah you talking a witness statement about the psychiatric impact it's had on you I don't think we need to yeah I mean I don't really don't we don't we don't
04:16:32 I don't really don't we don't we don't need to talk about it but the fact is it has had a effect on you that's been diagnosed
04:16:42 medically um I don't really want to comment on that fine don't worry
04:16:54 um you comment in your witness statement on the apologies that Lambert has given um and there are two of those one was in the channel 4 news program of
04:17:08 was in the channel 4 news program of 2013 where he said with hindsight I can only say that I genuinely regret my actions and I apologize to the women affected in my case so that's a one to all four women and then in his inquiry witness
04:17:23 women and then in his inquiry witness statement he says I recognize now that having a relationship with Belinda Harvey was wrong and I apologize to her well it's a bit late now isn't it yeah well my question would be how what
04:17:37 yeah well my question would be how what is your response to those apologies well I I say if it wasn't for comit for this public inquiry I wouldn't have still know the truth and it's still unfolding as far as I'm con concerned how do you feel miss Harvey about the role of the Metropolitan Police just
04:17:52 Police just devastated what have I ever done to deserve
04:17:53 deserve this you
04:18:03 know is there anything else you'd like to say to our chair that I've not covered not really I have no further questions for you okay there are likely to be some additional questions okay yeah
04:18:18 additional questions okay yeah fine you're almost but not quite at the end yes that's fine as uh M molon says there may be some additional questions those who've been following proceedings and your own Council uh May well wish to re examine yeah
04:18:34 re examine yeah yeah how long is needed do you think for this
04:18:39 this purpose 10 minutes 10 minutes certainly all rise
04:27:41 e e
04:28:29 yes so just one rule 10 yes um can we please bring up MPS 0726
04:28:34 0726 825 page five please this is a witness statement
04:28:48 please this is a witness statement provided to operation he by Steve Curtis oh yeah uh it's dated the 22nd of July 2015 it's the bottom of page five and it'll go over to page six just to warn you um just a discret point about Lambert he says as far as my
04:29:01 Lambert he says as far as my relationship with Bob is concerned I would say that we were good friends and I saw him as a father figure at around the time I knew Bob I was living with my then girlfriend in a squat in Hackney and we L drank at the three crowns
04:29:16 and we L drank at the three crowns Public House Bob was well known amongst the activists at this squat as babysitter Bob didn't drink much and quite often he would arrive at the squat have a chat for a few minutes then offer to watch the child going over to the
04:29:31 to watch the child going over to the next page please watch the child at the flat whilst the adults went to the pub the child was called privacy and she was a privacy old daughter of a woman called privacy who lived in the house we would leave Bob babysitting whilst we all went
04:29:45 leave Bob babysitting whilst we all went to the pub on our return to the squat we would usually find Bob asleep on his back with privacy cuddled up next to him Miss Harvey as far as you
04:29:59 him Miss Harvey as far as you know was this squat sack Road no I don't no do you know anything about this can you speak to this I do remember going to a house with a child that there was a
04:30:11 a house with a child that there was a child there but it was people I didn't know that as far as I'm aware are not core participant right um yeah there were kind of some squatters who I wasn't didn't know they were a little bit more extreme types right um
04:30:25 extreme types right um like not the kind of people I would have wanted to know like yeah they had these seem to remember they had two children but maybe only one and this was the
04:30:36 only one and this was the squat that you think Steve Curtis is talking about here I do yeah yeah and do you remember that Bob would babysit for people at the squats well I don't
04:30:48 people at the squats well I don't specifically remembering babysitting but I remember he was quite friendly with these people and I remember going around there and and there was a child there and but you can't he was very friendly
04:31:05 and but you can't he was very friendly with them and I believe that is the same cuz yeah but yeah um did Steve live in this W house or not is that I get the impression he did yeah yeah so that makes sense cuz I can't remember exactly where Steve lived right but but yeah putting two and two together that would be fine yeah but in terms of whether or
04:31:23 be fine yeah but in terms of whether or not B Babys sat you can't not assist us with that I can't I think it's quite possible yeah I
04:31:35 mean yeah don't worry if you if you don't if i' had have been a bit L on in my life I might have reported some social services frankly um just for a bit of neglect you know so I think that's probably I should wish I had said that now don't worry don't worry I
04:31:47 that now don't worry don't worry I didn't really know them or anything these people probably I mean yeah but it in any event the the key point is whether or not bald baby sat and you
04:31:58 whether or not bald baby sat and you can't assist with that you don't know that for certain yeah and I can't 100% say that it was the same child and the same parents either really so I can't help you with this right no I have no
04:32:12 help you with this right no I have no further questions for you I believe your Council has one question for you miss Harvey
04:32:18 Harvey yeah Miss Gil thank you um miss Harvey um in your witness statement you describe the discovery um that Lambert had planned his exit from your life yeah a full year before he
04:32:34 a full year before he actually um uh implemented it yeah and you say that it was incredibly upsetting um to find that out to know
04:32:46 upsetting um to find that out to know that he he made the decision to continue the relationship and continue damaging you making it harder for you to cope when it ended despite knowing all this time that he would have to leave you said it say it's awful and callous and
04:32:58 said it say it's awful and callous and that his behavior was so unnecessarily destructive do you want to explain what you mean by that yeah so it means it's the difference between it was
04:33:10 the difference between it was premeditated it's like a crime that was premeditated he knew he was going to do this and he knew he was leaving a year before and that he continued to let me think and believe that we
04:33:26 think and believe that we were going to you know to give up my you know to gradually lose my life chances and things um and you knew a year before I just can't believe it it's just astonishing to me so I was really
04:33:39 astonishing to me so I was really surprised as I say each new revelation is a new
04:33:41 is a new a new um nail in the coffin of whatever I thought we had which as I say needed a lot
04:34:00 say needed a lot of nails to actually make me convince me finally of his total lack of integrity and also I just don't understand you know what was wrong with him how could he do that it's just so unbelievably I say it's more
04:34:11 so unbelievably I say it's more premeditated it's not like he was just reacting to his situation and didn't know that when he was going to go I mean obviously he knew that he was going to go at some
04:34:27 that he was going to go at some time um but he actually knew when he was going to go a year before and it was almost went exactly to the day for that year it's
04:34:36 year it's just so the whole thing must have been pre-planned and you know each [Music]
04:34:42 [Music] sturge and it's abuse really nothing nothing
04:34:49 short yeah so it's just shocking thank and you know I thought the police were supposed to have integrity and professionalism and you know protect members of the public which is me a I'm a member of the public that's never done anything
04:35:04 that's never done anything so yeah what how does that fit in yes that's how I feel thank you s
04:35:15 M Miss Harvey may I speak to you directly
04:35:20 directly um I have to try and find out the truth of what happened about all these deployments including uh the deployment of Bob Lambert which is plainly one of the more important that I have to look
04:35:33 the more important that I have to look at yeah the evidence of witnesses such as
04:35:41 as yourself AIDS me to do that to an extent that those who give the evidence can't possibly
04:35:48 possibly appreciate may I say this without um I hope sounding pompous or patronizing
04:35:54 um you have clearly had a lifetime devoted to a
04:36:05 clearly had a lifetime devoted to a valuable Public Service as a midwife and matron um you've performed another very different valuable public service by giving the evidence that you have and may I thank you profoundly for it thanks
04:36:18 may I thank you profoundly for it thanks very much yeah appreciate that thank you thank
04:36:23 thank you we will now um adjourn again until 10:00
04:36:25 10:00 tomorrow all
04:36:40 rise e