'Madeleine' gives powerful testimony about being infiltrated by undercover officer HN354 'Vince Miller' who infiltrated her SWP branch 1977-1979. She describes the SWP's non-violent political philosophy, the Battle of Lewisham, extensive personal surveillance including her employment and marriage details, and challenges SDS reports she views as embellished or misleading. In the second half she reveals Miller developed a sexual relationship with her in 1979 after her marriage breakdown, which she now views as rape by deception.
00:19:53 good morning everyone and welcome to day 13 of hearings in tranche 1 phase two at the undercover policing inquiry my name is Neil Fernandes and I am the hearings manager
00:20:01 manager for those of you in the virtual hearing room please turn off both your camera and microphone unless you're invited to speak by the chairman as Zoom will pick up on all noises and you will be on
00:20:14 up on all noises and you will be on screen I now hand over to the chairman Sir John Mitten to formally start proceedings chairman thank you as at the beginning of every live evidential session a recording is going to be played made earlier there will be a difference today the visual
00:20:26 will be a difference today the visual image of the only witness to be called Madeline is not going to be shown in the hearing room at all the rest applies business
00:20:52 I am conducting this inquiry under a statute the inquiries Act 2005. which gives me the power to make orders regulating the conduct of the inquiry including its hearings in the exercise of that power I have made a number of orders which
00:21:04 I have made a number of orders which affect what you may and may not do in the hearing rooms and after you leave them
00:21:11 them breach of any of the orders is a serious matter and may have serious consequences for you
00:21:26 for you if I am satisfied that a person may have breached an order I have the power to certify the matter to the high court which will investigate and deal with it as if it had been a contempt of that Court
00:21:35 Court if satisfied that the breach has occurred and merits the imposition of a penalty
00:21:44 penalty the high court May impose a severe sanction on the person in breach including a fine imprisonment for up to two years and sequestration of their assets
00:21:55 assets evidence is going to be given live over screens in the hearing rooms it is strictly prohibited to photograph or record what is shown on the screens
00:22:12 or record what is shown on the screens or to record what is said by a witness or anyone else in the hearing rooms you may bring your mobile telephone into the hearing rooms but you may not use it for any of those purposes
00:22:26 purposes you may use it silently for any other purpose
00:22:28 purpose in particular you may transmit your account of what you have seen and heard in a hearing room to any other person
00:22:42 in a hearing room to any other person but only once at least 10 minutes have elapsed since the event which you are describing took place this restriction has a purpose in the course of the inquiry I have made orders prohibiting the public disclosure of information for example about the
00:22:57 of information for example about the identity of a person for a variety of reasons
00:23:02 reasons these orders must be upheld it is inevitable that whether by accident or design information which I have ordered should not be publicly disclosed will sometimes be disclosed in a hearing
00:23:17 be disclosed in a hearing if and when that happens I will immediately suspend the hearing and make an order prohibiting further disclosure of the information outside the hearing rooms
00:23:32 information outside the hearing rooms the consequence will be that no further disclosure of that information may be made by mobile telephone or other portable electronic device from within the hearing room or by any means outside it
00:23:42 it I'm sorry if you find this message alarming it is not intended to be its purpose is simply to ensure that everyone knows the rules which must
00:23:56 everyone knows the rules which must apply if I am to hear the evidence which I need to enable me to get to the truth about undercover policing you as members of the public are entitled to hear the same public evidence as I will hear
00:24:07 evidence as I will hear and to reach your own conclusions about it
00:24:11 it the inquiry team will do their best to ensure that you can if you have any doubt about the terms of this message or what you may or may not
00:24:24 this message or what you may or may not do you should not hesitate to ask one of them and with my help if necessary they will provide you with the answer
00:24:28 foreign
00:24:31 can you hear me
00:24:38 Madeline can you hear me
00:24:45 it may be the the mute button is um
00:24:50 it's different from my computer at home
00:24:59 I do wish to swear or to affirm to affirm please may the words of affirmation be read to you please thank you chairman good morning Madeline can you see and hear me
00:25:12 I understand that you would like to affirm that's right yeah thank you please repeat after me I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincere and truly
00:25:23 sincere and truly declare and affirm
00:25:32 that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth countries and nothing but the truth Thank you Madeline chairman
00:25:43 Thank you Madeline chairman thank you I think we may have a small technical hitch because uh I cannot see
00:25:54 technical hitch because uh I cannot see Madeleine although the arrangements were made for me to see her I wonder whether that can be put right okay any senior now oh I can see you now Splendid that's marvelous um these technical hitches are bound to
00:26:11 these technical hitches are bound to occur I'm sorry they always occur mostly completed favorites but we'll do our best
00:26:12 best um we're planning to have a break at about a quarter past 11 but um if you need a break before then all you need to do is to say so and we'll have one immediately thank you Ms Hamilton is going to ask you
00:26:25 Ms Hamilton is going to ask you questions on behalf of the inquiry thank you
00:26:28 thank you sir
00:26:36 you will be known to this inquiry as uh Madeline throughout but you provided a witness statement dated the the 18th of February 2001
00:26:47 February 2001 but have you been able to review that witness statement recently um I have I'd just like to say um I had it was prepared in an incredibly short period of time and
00:26:58 incredibly short period of time and reviewing it now there are the changes that I would have made to it but but you know the time was uh very impressive um I was going to ask you whether you
00:27:11 um I was going to ask you whether you can confirm that it's true to your best of your knowledge and belief can you still do that albeit you want to make some uh changes to it oh no it's still true that it's just that I think I would have expanded on on some some
00:27:23 have expanded on on some some so there would be additions that you would make yeah but it is true yes I'm grateful well perhaps um you can have an
00:27:34 grateful well perhaps um you can have an opportunity to expand on the points that you want to make during the course of your oral evidence today um in your witness statement you set out your family history and how it influenced your growing political
00:27:50 influenced your growing political awareness and informed your later political activism is that right is right yes um you became politically active in your teens is that right it is right yeah initially with the young communist league and then the international
00:28:05 league and then the international socialists later Socialist Workers Party when you were in your early twenties is that is that correct that's right well I joined um is when I was about 15 I think and was active for a number of years I
00:28:20 and was active for a number of years I think there was this a kind of a short break when I was studying um and yeah kind of rejoined the um is which then became swp around about 1970
00:28:33 which then became swp around about 1970 uh I can't believe it was 1977 was that sound about right yeah earlier than that early then yeah
00:28:48 um you are also in your witness statement you set out the context in which you became a politically active both within the swp and the trades unionist
00:28:58 unionist um you refer to the rise of the far
00:29:09 um you refer to the rise of the far right and the increase in racist attacks that you became aware of is that right that's right yeah it was a very impressive at the time in 1973 you became a member of the Walden Stone branch of what became the
00:29:23 Walden Stone branch of what became the swp and then after the branch split the Leighton branch is that right that's right yeah yeah and this of course was the branch reported on by the undercover officer that you knew as uh Vince Miller
00:29:36 that you knew as uh Vince Miller throughout his deployment which is from early 1977 to the Autumn of 1979.
00:29:47 early 1977 to the Autumn of 1979. um I want to start please if I may just asking you some very general questions about the swp um the swp was a revolutionary Socialist
00:30:02 um the swp was a revolutionary Socialist Party is that right that's right seeking to create as you say in your witness statement
00:30:09 statement a society a fair and just Society this was its aim a fair and just Society through revolutionary rather than parliamentary uh means is that correct
00:30:20 parliamentary uh means is that correct um well I think I'd have to take issue with that slightly I think um
00:30:21 um we we saw Parliament as a kind of a useful forum and as a way of um you know being able to kind of focus people's attention to various things
00:30:36 attention to various things um saying election campaigns however we basically believed that extra parliamentary activity was essential because
00:30:43 because um
00:30:44 um you know it's um we wanted to kind of increase democracy we felt that people should be active and participate at all levels not just you know voting once every five years and then
00:30:56 every five years and then um having I think we just had to look now at how accountable politicians are and how self-serving and you know they they are so our belief is
00:31:09 you know they they are so our belief is in you know broadening participation and democracy
00:31:14 democracy um and through through both democratic means unrevolutionary means you mean um well I don't think a Revolution was imminent
00:31:21 imminent um in 1973 not in this country um we did believe that you know capitalism needed to be dismantled
00:31:32 capitalism needed to be dismantled um but you know we saw it as a system that was you know had inherent contradictions which you know with two
00:31:43 contradictions which you know with two classes you know in in constant kind of conflict and battle if you like and we basically
00:31:48 basically um felt that you know that system had to change
00:31:52 change and you know out and we kind of thought that it would change um through the acts of you know the working class through uh industrial activity through trade Union activity and change would occur in that way
00:32:05 and change would occur in that way um and is that how so how did you seek to bring about that objective that's uh overthrow of uh the capitalist system
00:32:19 overthrow of uh the capitalist system well I don't think that the swp or the left ever felt that it would be in a position where it could overthrow uh anything I think we we sought to um
00:32:28 um basically
00:32:30 basically um extend the class struggle you know to talk to educate you know to kind of draw out the contradictions to be active in our trade unions
00:32:47 our trade unions um to campaign on issues which we felt you know kind of um impacted you know greatly on of a working class in particular and um you know raise awareness like that and build a massive movement you know we
00:33:00 and build a massive movement you know we were not a terrorist group we were not a violent group we basically um you know so The Mask we wanted to build a movement a mass movement which we wouldn't necessarily have anything if it came to Revolution because I'm sure that we
00:33:13 Revolution because I'm sure that we didn't feel that we would be leading it and how did you seek to build the movement what what means did you use in the swp well we were all active in our trade unions um not because we were infiltrating them
00:33:28 um not because we were infiltrating them which you know I've seen that kind of um being referred to many times um but just because you know we believed that um
00:33:35 that um change only came from below so it was you know as people as workers it was in our interest to to be members of unions so that we could um help to Camp you
00:33:49 so that we could um help to Camp you know help to kind of improve conditions help to increase pay
00:34:03 help to increase pay um you know take action over um you know say safety at work you know those types of things and we had lots of public meetings always open to the public sold papers um went on demonstrations and just you
00:34:15 um went on demonstrations and just you know perfectly legal and just legitimate um methods what was the swp's attitude towards violence
00:34:22 we did not you know we did not support violence in any way shape or form
00:34:33 in fact um there were a group that were expelled from the swp I think it was red action who were expelled because of their um you know violent confrontations and that they were expelled you know we didn't we saw it as totally
00:34:52 didn't we saw it as totally counterproducted and alienating and you know we we sought to build a mass movement you know of and I think most people would quite rightly
00:35:01 rightly um it would be absolutely horrified at that point as as I am myself Madeline I'm being told by the um shorthand writers that your voice is quite quiet do you think you you I don't
00:35:17 quite quiet do you think you you I don't know whether that requires an adjustment to the volumes or whether sitting close to the screen would help or closer to the microphone
00:35:23 yeah I'll try and speak louder I do have a quiet voice yo thank you very much thank you if if you forget I'll try and remind you okay okay yeah thank you
00:35:32 thank you um
00:35:37 um your branch uh the Walden stove branch we see from the documents it was a relatively large Branch I think in
00:35:49 relatively large Branch I think in September 1977 it had 43 members before it then split into the late and and Walden Stow branches in late 1977. during the course of the split is that roughly half the numbers so there were sort of 20 some 20 plus in each branch
00:36:05 sort of 20 some 20 plus in each branch or how did it work I think yeah that's probably a kind of a fairly you know equal equal split um
00:36:09 um what is that
00:36:17 what is that um you know because geographically maybe more people lived in walthamstow they lived in leytonstone or Leighton you know there were probably there was probably a crossover of you know people from walthamstow um still attending our meetings at least for a period of time right um and was it relatively static
00:36:31 um and was it relatively static membership or did people drop in and come and go um there there was probably a kind of um
00:36:43 um there there was probably a kind of um you know kind of a central group who had you know been in the in is and then the swp for
00:36:45 swp for um quite a number of years um and there were other people that kind of came and left
00:36:56 of came and left um but yeah there was probably a fairly stable group
00:37:04 um Branch meetings those were weekly worthy largely yes yeah um we also see from the documents there is mention of the aggregate meetings that outer East London District so whether additionally to the weekly
00:37:18 whether additionally to the weekly meetings were there also the aggregate meetings that were attended by Branch members there were I think we were in
00:37:29 members there were I think we were in the outer London district and I think it composed of walthamstow at Leighton branch and I think ilford and new um and yeah I mean obviously they didn't happen every week they were less
00:37:43 happen every week they were less frequent but we did get together yeah do you know how frequent those meetings were
00:37:47 were I can't actually remember I think it was
00:38:04 put maybe every two months maybe maybe a month two months every three months okay so not not all that frequent in fact no unless something big was going on and then you know that they might be convened more frequently um other Branch activity um you
00:38:17 um you engaged in all members of the branch it seems from the from the documents were involved with the selling of the newspaper is that right that's right yeah it was a main focus for our activity as a way of um getting out and talking to people you know in the street and on tickets
00:38:33 know in the street and on tickets Etc and how frequently do you think you would do that in the course of any general week was that well every week every week it was a call it was a core part of our activity and would that be once a week twice a week or just whenever you had the opportunity
00:38:48 whenever you had the opportunity um well we had both walthamstow and Leighton Branch both had um I could call them pitches so we we had a regular you know um selling spot
00:39:03 had a regular you know um selling spot um in leytonstone we and we always had the permission of um you know the the kind of
00:39:04 kind of um
00:39:08 um say the shop owner or the building you know because in Lakeland Stone we actually met in the outside the Leb showrooms and we asked permission and we had a regular picture every single Saturday
00:39:29 Saturday um walthamstone was the same they're at the top of the market every single Saturday but during the week um we did we did also go to um
00:39:35 um uh workplaces so we might stand outside factories and we might have a regular sale outside factories especially if I'd say if there was a you know action kind of going on but
00:39:55 know action kind of going on but and we also then sold papers on Estates so we would sometimes go knocking door to door trying to sell our paper on estate so it could be once a week um
00:39:58 um you know the the two permanent sales yes but the other other sales yeah probably two or three times a week okay thank you um how about demonstrations how often
00:40:10 um how about demonstrations how often did you attend demonstrations as part of your well what do you think um during the 70s there were lots of demonstrations um sometimes uh every weekend right possibly you know depending upon you
00:40:30 possibly you know depending upon you know how important or how big the issue was or how current the issue was um everybody would attend and we see from your with this statement some of the documents fly posting was
00:40:47 some of the documents fly posting was was was another activity carried out by the branch how often do you think that would take place well we would do fly postings if we had a public meeting right we probably had a big public meeting
00:40:49 meeting um with a kind of you know a fairly well-known speaker you know or a very you know somebody like um Paul foot for example and we would
00:41:05 um Paul foot for example and we would then fly post and uh give out leaflets and stuff to basically build the audience for the meeting and how roughly how often were the public meetings you know I think we tried to have a public meeting about once a month it's a month right yeah
00:41:18 once a month it's a month right yeah but you know we had to pay for footballs and stuff like that so um expense was occurred it I'm trying to gauge the level of commitment that was involved in being a member of the so swp would it be fair to
00:41:40 member of the so swp would it be fair to say it was it took up really quite a lot of your oh yeah absolutely yeah I mean we were um we were pretty dedicated and we were um you know our lives revolved pretty much around politics and you know we
00:41:51 much around politics and you know we socialize together as well so our lives were very enmeshed and was that the the whole of your branch felt like that so sort of all or was that was it was it a very hard
00:42:02 was that was it was it a very hard close-knit group of people who all felt a similar way or was was it there were a
00:42:13 a similar way or was was it there were a sort of group in the center who who were very very committed with other people sort of coming and going around the edges
00:42:14 edges um well I think Center at
00:42:29 us to get them involved in activity as well you know we were our main focus was on being active um you know because you know we we had a message to spread we had a world to build um and in the Walden Stow branch and
00:42:43 um and in the Walden Stow branch and later the Leighton Branch what were the other members of the branch roughly at the broadly at the same sort of age and stage of life as you were or was it a mixture of different people
00:42:54 mixture of different people um on the whole it was a fairly young group
00:42:58 group um some of the people who had been around for longer um you know there were quite a few kind of married couples who were possibly
00:43:09 of married couples who were possibly um five or six years older than us right but on the whole it was young although we did have you know a few um you know kind of older people or two people that were in their 50s say but mostly it was people in their early twenties right
00:43:22 twenties right um
00:43:26 um you said that you also socialized together you say in your witness statement that after your weekly meetings you I think you had the recent meetings in a room above a pub is that right and then you'd go down to the bar yeah afterwards as a as a as a group is
00:43:38 yeah afterwards as a as a as a group is that right yeah yeah mostly it's a group yeah I mean some people might have to go home early because I had to get up for work but yeah it was we were we were
00:43:50 work but yeah it was we were we were very social there were lots of lots of socializing not just after meetings but we had parties and socials and you know met up a lot
00:43:59 a lot um and I you also say in your witness statement that sometimes particularly it's a weekend
00:44:10 it's a weekend um people might come back to your house that you shared with other s
00:44:16 s having a drink one that once the public closed is that right that's right yeah yeah my house was I lived in a it was a big house it was a big flat chef and we had you know four bedrooms we had a huge
00:44:29 you know four bedrooms we had a huge living room we had a shared kitchen and we were also very close to two incredibly popular pubs in Lake Stone which
00:44:41 Stone which were crowded with people at the weekend particularly not just for the swp but people from you know all sorts of people
00:44:52 people from you know all sorts of people and so we we did socialize widely and my house did host meetings on occasions and we did have parties and socials
00:45:05 parties and socials and your the other your housemates were they swp activists also yeah Julie
00:45:14 mostly we were we were all in the swp um Vince Miller hn354 as we also call him has described your house show as a drop-in center for swp activity but what's your does that
00:45:27 swp activity but what's your does that sound broadly accurate to how was your reaction to that description well it makes it sound as if it know we had a printing press or something like that it was
00:45:38 was as I say we were social you know people would pop round we would um you know we might meet there if we
00:45:50 um you know we might meet there if we were kind of going off to do something but yeah I mean we were we were young social adults we enjoyed you know enjoyed party I guess um the other Branch members with whom
00:46:02 um the other Branch members with whom you socialize would you have regarded those people as your friends at the time although the the did they make up most of your social group almost exclusively at that time I think yeah
00:46:19 um and that of course was the social group which was then infiltrated by Vince
00:46:28 which was then infiltrated by Vince Miller in 1977 I'm going to come on to ask you some questions about him in a little while and first of all I just want to look at a few please of the reports that you have in your uh pack and to see what it was he was reporting about the Walden stove and the Layton
00:46:46 about the Walden stove and the Layton branches of the swp during the course of his deployment in so far as it touched on uh you
00:46:48 on uh you um please can we have up on screen ucpi zero zero zero zero zero one seven four five six please
00:47:03 four five six please and so in the hospital bundle that's at tab 20.
00:47:24 uh thank you uh this is a report dated the 13th of June 1977 and it is a report about a meeting of the Walden Stow branch of the Socialist Workers Party held at the rosencrown public house with
00:47:38 held at the rosencrown public house with 25 people in attendance at between 8 p.m and 11 p.m is that broadly the sort of time a weekly meeting would take about three hours or was that quite a lengthy meeting
00:47:48 meeting um
00:47:52 um I think if there was a lot of discussion after
00:47:55 after um after you know this because it was usually there would be a speaker and then there would be lots of discussions so it could go on for that for that long and the Rosen Crown was somewhere that
00:48:07 and the Rosen Crown was somewhere that um was a was our regular meeting place here
00:48:13 um in paragraph three it makes it says this the discussion topic of the evening was revolutionary feminism and the guest speaker was a privacy from the new um teachers Branch the party the
00:48:37 teachers Branch the party the conversation became rather heavy however and was only in live and uh by comment from an unidentified female who would not listen to any of the proposed Specialists sorry reposed hmm
00:48:40 hmm specialist alternatives to her extreme view on the subject um revolutionary feminism um
00:48:50 um was that something that interested your branch
00:48:51 branch or feminism in general um well feminism in general yeah you know during the 70s you know the the women's Liberation movement um was uh you know making great
00:49:14 um was uh you know making great um you know had had a great impact on you know on people's thinking um and obviously you know it was something that um you know was kind of fairly close to our hearts you know because I think we saw you know the women's oppression um was you know not only were they
00:49:25 um was you know not only were they oppressed as workers but they also pressed to swim in them so that you know the the vast um you know the vast bulk of you know in in essence women had two
00:49:39 you know in in essence women had two jobs not only did they have to go to work because most families couldn't actually live on one wage but they also had you know crime responsibility for children the
00:49:54 crime responsibility for children the housework and all of those things and we we saw that you know the personal was very much political so yes it was something
00:49:57 something um that uh you know we were very interested in uh thank you um paragraph four uh says this the branch business was
00:50:09 uh says this the branch business was then discussed the anti-jubilee picnic in Epping Forest on Monday the 6th of June 1977 was to receive full support and this was to be preceded by a full branch
00:50:18 branch um
00:50:19 um full branch turnout on Saturday the 4th of June 1977 to sell copies of socialist worker featuring The stopka Jubilee headline the
00:50:31 headline the um
00:50:39 anti-jubilee uh picnic what what sort of occasion was that well it was a picnic in Epping Forest um I think at that time uh you know
00:50:50 um I think at that time uh you know there was a lot of kind of flag waving Empire Nostalgia and you know the the Jubilee was something that uh it was was hard to escape and you know not being a
00:51:01 escape and you know not being a supporter of the monarchy myself and you know we were not generally uh supporters of the monarchy we saw it as a kind of anachronistic kind of Relic you know
00:51:14 anachronistic kind of Relic you know hanging over from feudal times and we didn't support it um and we had our own alternative party so it was it was a it was a social occasion a party yeah it was a social
00:51:30 occasion a party yeah it was a social meditation in on yeah in Epping Forest you know on in the grass um was it likely to um involve any public disorder or anything of that nature absolutely not
00:51:41 anything of that nature absolutely not no it was just it was a picnic with with children I might add so yeah no possibility of public disorder was it was it a broader group of people than were involved in your branch was it a sort of swp wide picnic or well I think
00:51:57 sort of swp wide picnic or well I think it was because at that time so June 77 I think the rock Rock Against Racism had been set up by actually somebody in our
00:52:09 been set up by actually somebody in our Branch Roger huddle was uh instrumental in setting up ra and so that we would have had lots of um you know kind of young music fans people that were kind of gravitating around Rock Against Racism they would have come as well
00:52:20 have come as well thank you
00:52:21 thank you um
00:52:30 um the call for the full branch turnout to sell the Socialist worker Jubilee Edition
00:52:35 Edition um this would be a public sale would it of the Socialist worker not a covert activity okay not prefer at all no I mean we didn't we never you know we we
00:52:47 mean we didn't we never you know we we didn't feel that we had anything to hide we were very open we weren't doing anything clandestine and you know um it's free speech in this country you know if you don't support the Jubilee then you have every right to say so
00:53:01 then you have every right to say so um can you scroll down please in this document paragraph five
00:53:07 also that can see paragraph five and six actually that's lovely thank you very much but paragraph five reads uh following the unsuccessful attempt to occupy the Sainsbury's supermarket and Stratford in 15 as a protest against Rising prices organized by local women's
00:53:26 Rising prices organized by local women's action groups it was mentioned that this tactic would be tried again at various Sainsbury's Stores um
00:53:30 um the women's action groups was that something that you were involved in um I think I would have um yeah probably would have gone to some meetings but
00:53:46 meetings but I don't know if I can make a point about the this whole you know Sainsbury's thing of course at the time um you know we basically believe that um food prices were kept artificially High because of the need for big
00:53:58 High because of the need for big supermarkets to extract profit for shareholders and now I'm thinking to myself
00:54:10 myself goodness you know we were so right you know at the moment in this country we have over 2 million people you know um using food banks we have four million children um you know uh living in extreme in
00:54:22 um you know uh living in extreme in poverty what would be classified as poverty we have people like Marcus rashford having a footballer having to um organize to get free School meals I mean it's an absolute total indictment
00:54:36 mean it's an absolute total indictment of this system that children go to bed you know hungry that families have to choose between Heating and and food so absolutely um this is something that was extremely important
00:54:51 um the occupation of branches at Sainsbury's was that likely to involve large numbers of people or small numbers of people
00:54:56 of people um I don't think that
00:55:03 thing as such is that we would have turned up with leaflets and some banners um and you know would have been lethalating people coming in and people coming out
00:55:18 coming out and you know talking to them about these issues about you know why why are food prices so high and you know I believe that food like you know clean water fresh air Etc shelter for basic human rights
00:55:39 um paragraph six uh says finally it was announced that privacy wished to resign as treasurer of the branch and would therefore be replaced in the near future we know of course that Vince Miller was
00:55:50 we know of course that Vince Miller was appointed as the branch treasure at some stage and later the district treasure and and to the social committee of the outer East London District
00:56:07 outer East London District can I ask you this question slightly out of term the social committee of the um swp District what would that have involved do you know being on that committee what would what would be the what would what would what would he have responsibility for well I
00:56:21 responsibility for well I I remember this that clearly but I should imagine
00:56:31 maybe fundraising kind of music events fundraising parties you know that you know social activities pretty much um you know because social activities for swp members or social activities as
00:56:43 for swp members or social activities as a form of uh activism or both well both yeah yeah mostly um well I think you know if it was uh say music gigs and stuff like that you know we would
00:56:55 we would um maybe in conjunction with say Rock Against Racism um we did have um I think Carol Grimes played at one of the first for our gigs which was in um Forest Gate I believe which was near
00:57:09 um Forest Gate I believe which was near us so it could have been that they were kind of working um you know alongside those groups to promote that type of thing thank you very much
00:57:19 very much um you can take that document down now please and can we put up uh ucpi zero zero zero zero zero one seven five seven
00:57:33 zero zero zero zero one seven five seven one please this is at tab 21 of the hard copy bundle sir
00:57:55 uh this is a report dated the 15th of July at 1977 and it was a report of the decisions taken at a recent annual conference of the swp
00:58:03 um a meeting held in the rosencrown public house it's a meeting of the Walden branch of the Socialist Workers Party but with about 30 people present this is before the uh split of the
00:58:24 this is before the uh split of the branches between walthamstow and Layton um can we please scroll down to that paragraph
00:58:25 paragraph 4.1 please
00:58:36 um it says this the chief points raised were one when contacts were already
00:58:50 were one when contacts were already inside a workplace whether white collar or manual the Socialist worker and or are Rank and file bulletin should accompany articles of particular interest to the workforce at that establishment in an attempt to establish a periphery of sympathizers some of whom might be recruited to the swrp
00:59:12 might be recruited to the swrp was this is this an example of the sort of Consciousness raising that you the swp were carrying out amongst our workers yeah absolutely um you know we basically believe that um you know you start where people are
00:59:26 you know you start where people are um you know if you were to turn up and start talking about the finer points of dialectical materialism most people would you know show you the door um so yeah we were kind of
00:59:37 um so yeah we were kind of um you know seeking to raise Consciousness as you say about particular particular issues that were pertin to that workplace whether that was equal pay or whether it was uh
00:59:49 was equal pay or whether it was uh safety conditions or things like that and with the ultimate aim is this right of recruiting people to your cause is that right um yeah we wanted to build the movement
01:00:00 um yeah we wanted to build the movement not necessarily to get them to join the swp but we wanted to build the movement that that was part of our you know we were out in the community out you know
01:00:12 were out in the community out you know we weren't a kind of we weren't a secret sect we were very much Community Based um and perhaps that is uh uh supported by the second paragraph the campaign to
01:00:28 by the second paragraph the campaign to gain support for the right to work March and September will concentrate on the dolcues punk rock gigs and youth work and local trades uh unions does that support what you've just said about the
01:00:44 support what you've just said about the that you're trying to meet people where they were yeah and uh yeah and don't forget you know at that time youth unemployment particularly was uh very high you know there were lots of um yeah I mean there was lots of kind of feeling
01:00:56 there was lots of kind of feeling amongst young people that there was absolutely no future for them you know that they had faced a future of unemployment or low color at sorry low low paid
01:01:07 low paid um you know insecure jobs I'm a paragraph little three the work of various women's voice groups would Center on local issues such as the
01:01:18 Center on local issues such as the closure of maternity hospitals and abortion and at factories with a high proportion of female staff oh is this right was woman's voice a subgroup of the swp
01:01:39 subgroup of the swp um well it was yes and and It produced a a magazine and stuff and had separate meetings as well um but most of the swp women that were in uh in
01:01:47 in uh in obviously sorry swp women were members of women's voice as well as the swp but there were other people that were members of human's Voice who weren't
01:01:58 members of human's Voice who weren't members of yesterday right so it had a it had a broader a a a broader membership but yes as you picked swp women were part of women's voice but they might not but not all sop not all
01:02:11 they might not but not all sop not all women's voice members were CBP is that right exactly yeah and so it does it follow then that you were a member of women's voice and attended the music I yeah I would have been a member I would have
01:02:22 have gone to some meetings however at that time I think I was working on the buses then I was doing irregular shift work and I was heavily involved in my own
01:02:34 and I was heavily involved in my own Union which also had weekly meetings um so you know I had lots of lots of commitments on my time I wasn't particularly active in women's voice
01:02:48 particularly active in women's voice right so it was a you were a member of the group but you didn't necessarily become involved in the activism would that be is that right well it would have supported it but I I couldn't commit all my time to it
01:02:59 my time to it right
01:03:01 right um
01:03:12 paragraph uh for uh little four if you can just scroll up just a tiny bit clear just so we can get the rest end of that paragraph
01:03:13 paragraph thank you
01:03:14 thank you but with regards to United to United work with the Communist Party of Great Britain the swp was to take the initiative at Trade union and rank and file levels attempt will be made to
01:03:30 file levels attempt will be made to involve cpgb members it's all all levels including including that a u e w presidential campaign at racism and The Chronic dispute this did not extend to
01:03:42 Chronic dispute this did not extend to workers elections the swp would feel 50 to 60 candidates the next general election at an estimated cost of 50 a thousand pounds um is this an example of what you uh spoke about earlier the the the
01:04:04 spoke about earlier the the the the ways in which the swp was seeking to work also within a democratic setting whilst having ultimately revolutionary aims yeah I guess I guess so yeah uh thank you um
01:04:24 over the page please a paragraph four little eight please also want to look at very briefly
01:04:34 thank you but this reads as follows the swp restated its support for the provisional Ira but remained critical of that
01:04:45 Ira but remained critical of that organization's policy of random bombings of working class uh people um is is that a an accurate reflection of the swp altitude walls to the
01:05:01 of the swp altitude walls to the provisional Ira we did not support bombing at all um absolutely not we supported the United Island and we felt that the um you know the Irish people had the right to self-determination
01:05:19 to self-determination um and we saw the um the British army as basically an occupying Force but we did not support bombing at all in fact I I was working on the buses when the whole bombing thing was going on and you know we we didn't allow people to leave
01:05:36 we we didn't allow people to leave Parcels or or suitcases you know there were the old-fashioned route Master buses on on the back you know we were very security conscious this is something that you know was uh I I felt personally absolutely did not support those kinds of methods at all
01:05:52 those kinds of methods at all and I think you see in your witness statements um your view was that you supported uh the campaign for United Ireland and the uh
01:06:02 uh Irish
01:06:04 Irish a
01:06:12 and self-defense against the British Army and the Royal also constabulary is that right yeah but when we talk about self-defense um you know it's self-def self-defense has to be seen in broader terms it
01:06:23 has to be seen in broader terms it doesn't mean that we you know that we were thinking that the Irish people should start attacking anybody you know we felt that uh you know in fact there's there's a lot of evidence that the ruc and the British
01:06:36 of evidence that the ruc and the British army were the ones that were causing you know lots of you know look at Bloody Sunday for example they were causing you know
01:06:41 know um we're attacking the communities but you know we basically saw self-defense in terms of you know say for example
01:06:53 in terms of you know say for example that you might say you were going to go on strike you know you you would take action like that as a way of Defending Your Community or that you would have a rent strike or that you would um you know take that type of activity
01:07:09 thank you um
01:07:16 um um just scroll on please to paragraph six it's on the next page
01:07:27 um perhaps reinforcing an earlier point that you made about the publicness of your of your statements finally privacy appealed that for those uncommitted
01:07:44 appealed that for those uncommitted members of the audience to join the swp does it look as if this was a public meeting with access to all yes absolutely and you know and you have to bear in mind that you know a lot in some of these these reports
01:08:01 a lot in some of these these reports um you know there's there's a little bit of embroidery going on in many of the reports
01:08:02 reports um
01:08:10 um there would there would have been people there who would have expressed opinions um that we wouldn't necessarily agree with but you know we we would discuss and debate and argue with those people they don't necessarily everything that's reported in these reports does not
01:08:25 reported in these reports does not necessarily reflect the views of the swp was there a distinction between a private and a public meeting did you did the swp hold private meetings um we did hold private meetings and they were usually kind of um
01:08:40 were usually kind of um organizational things you know kind of um Branch business really
01:08:47 um yeah we didn't we didn't plot let's put it that way thank you you can take that document down now please um and can you please uh put up ucpi zero zero zero zero zero one one
01:09:06 ucpi zero zero zero zero zero one one one two nine please this is a tab 15 of the heart of people
01:09:12 good
01:09:20 this is a um a report dated the 2nd of August
01:09:21 August 1977 a meeting of the Walden Stone branch of the swp again held at the rosencrown public house and it was a
01:09:36 rosencrown public house and it was a meeting about Chile where there was a Chilean National who was um who was the guest speaker
01:09:47 who was um who was the guest speaker and if we can just focus please first on paragraph four um
01:09:55 um privacy who is the Chilean National that started by explaining that he was a former member of the Mir revolutionary group in Chile and said that the
01:10:10 group in Chile and said that the internal arguments between his party and the Communist Party have been a major factor in the Smashing of the Indie government he went on to say that there were many similarities between his former party and the swp the need for workers to be properly
01:10:26 the need for workers to be properly armed and have adequate supplies at the time of revolutions uh Revolution was Paramount
01:10:29 Paramount um
01:10:32 he
01:10:48 seems to be discussing the divisions between revolutionary groups which meant that any defense of the IND regime was fractured and secondly the failure to arm those groups and so they couldn't come to any sort of Defense to the Pinochet coup is that right
01:11:07 you know I think it's no secret that on the left there there is a lot of uh sectarianism and division um which obviously in a situation like
01:11:18 um which obviously in a situation like Chile would have to be overcome however you know I think we have to you know thinking about Chile um you know I I know that I later say in my statement um that
01:11:27 um that um you know I I talk about this but we have to remember there was a illegally elected government of elende which was
01:11:43 elected government of elende which was violently overthrown by an illegal coup led by Pinochet our feeling was that had the
01:11:45 had the um
01:11:50 um Allende government basically distributed arms to defend that legally and democratically elected majority um things could perks have turned out
01:12:02 um things could perks have turned out differently and with a lack of Defense you know don't forget you know countries go to war to protect themselves um you know this this isn't particularly controversial I don't think
01:12:17 controversial I don't think um and I think given the um the lack of of support we saw thousands of uh you know left left Wingers trade unionists journalists anybody that was opposing them
01:12:32 them um you know brutally murdered disappeared and tortured you know it was uh it seems to me to be an entirely sensible thing to do
01:12:44 sensible thing to do um this individual seemed to draw a comparison between uh his former revolutionary group in Chile and the swp can you recall that
01:12:55 can you recall that um not off the top of my head I I can't but I should imagine that he was talking about our long-term aims you know bear in mind we we were not an armed
01:13:08 in mind we we were not an armed paramilitary group we did not didn't train ourselves up or anything like that so you know he's talking about ideology he's not talking about
01:13:19 he's not talking about and probably the way that they operated in an open Democratic fashion to us um and that of course that long-term own being Revolution overthrow of because
01:13:34 being Revolution overthrow of because that long-term aim being to create Fair Society I would say can we just scroll down to paragraph five please
01:13:47 um this speech led to a great deal of discussion on the method by which the inevitable revolution in in the United Kingdom could be achieved and protected it was decided that arming the workers
01:14:03 it was decided that arming the workers would have to be the first step and you you of course have addressed this in your witness statements that's absolutely leave nonsense
01:14:18 leave nonsense nonsense um did the swp uh see the revolution as imminent no and how about inevitable I
01:14:19 I I think that we felt that capitalism would collapse at some point that was inevitable because of you know the kind of the contradictions and the conflict
01:14:30 conflict um you know where you have a society where you have a tiny tiny minority owning and controlling everything and the majority you know having virtually
01:14:42 the majority you know having virtually nothing we felt that this you know was a stage of development capitalism it's a stage of development that we would pass through and that you know at some point we would we would have a socialist
01:14:54 we would we would have a socialist society that that was that was our our main name
01:14:59 main name was it anticipated that in order to bring about any ultimate Revolution imminent or not um the workers would need to be armed was that something anticipated by the
01:15:13 was that something anticipated by the swp no I I just it it it's this uh view it seems to be uh it's such it lacks it totally lacks Nuance doesn't it it's kind of um
01:15:24 um no absolutely not we we did not you know we we foresaw as I've said that um
01:15:36 um a new society would be born when the vast mass of people um basically you know organize themselves took action and decided that things would would change we didn't believe that a tiny
01:15:51 change we didn't believe that a tiny tiny sect of people you know we weren't the red brigades you know or anything like that we didn't support that type of activity we basically believed that you know the working class would organize
01:16:03 know the working class would organize itself and the working class would bring about this change not us
01:16:14 um a paragraph six no um the guest speaker also indicated that no peoples no People's Army could directly oppose a fully trained one and to achieve Victory the standing army would have to be infiltrated this idea
01:16:31 would have to be infiltrated this idea was accepted as an important and logical step in any Revolution on the left uh was that something the swp um contemplated infiltrating the standing army no not at all not at all interestingly though
01:16:48 interestingly though um as you brought this point up the national front it was one of their policies
01:16:53 policies um to enroll within the territorial Army and they were actually um you know they they had secret cells they were building links with European
01:17:04 they were building links with European far-right groups and there was evidence that they were actually training in Germany they were training themselves militarily the swp we were selling papers and having meetings we did not support this at all
01:17:22 um and finally paragraph seven the meeting was finally addressed by privacy who broke down in tears after
01:17:33 who broke down in tears after summarizing the Chilean conflict and the result of a recent rape case heard in the high court yes this Outburst was rapidly followed by another comrade throwing an epileptic fit which effectively put a stop to any further uh business but um you have said in your witness
01:17:50 um you have said in your witness statement that that sums up the attitude of the author only and appears to be written for a comic effect oh
01:17:55 oh I think it was I mean you know I knew somebody
01:17:55 somebody said in my state who was a political I've been a political uh journalist in Chile who had been arrested and have been tortured
01:18:08 been arrested and have been tortured have been hung up over a vat of liquid and it had electrical um you know electricity kind of applied to his body and it finally you know managed to get out of the country and been given Asylum here you know this
01:18:21 been given Asylum here you know this you know we're talking about you know incredibly grave matters you know very moving you know no wonder she was crying
01:18:33 moving you know no wonder she was crying um you know this is you know most people in the swp to my knowledge were very compassionate people and the fact that somebody could write this and find it funny almost
01:18:45 find it funny almost um just Beggar's belief uh thank you you can take that document down now please
01:18:57 but just dealing with matters chronologically um that meeting was in early August of 1977 and on 13th of August 1977 was the battle of lewisham
01:19:10 battle of lewisham which we know there were significant violence on that day at various points um Vince Miller
01:19:21 um Vince Miller hn354 says in his witness statement that he went to the area of the proposed
01:19:33 that he went to the area of the proposed route of the national front march on the previous evening and deposited bricks at strategic
01:19:46 and deposited bricks at strategic locations along that route for use during the course of the March um
01:19:51 um did you know anything about that um
01:19:54 um let me go on to this could could I just ask if you could bring up one of my images yes of course I'm going to I was going to do that in any event let's do it now which one would you like if you could bring up the one that end the entry for three nine
01:20:11 the entry for three nine yes that's that's ucpi yeah zeros three three nine five yeah that's right
01:20:34 okay yeah now this is something that you know because of my family history I feel really really strongly about this and I think what we can see here uh you know
01:20:41 know uh well and I'd just like to you know to say I find it absolutely horrifying that we were just over 30 years um from the end of world war taught the two a war in which 60 million people
01:20:56 two a war in which 60 million people including five million Jews were killed we'd seen searing images of Wilson Auschwitz and it was within living memory you know lots of people like
01:21:08 memory you know lots of people like myself you know we were kind of the Next Generation we were living um you know with with traumatized parents or whatever it was incredibly you know still a very potent you know kind of thing and I just find it amazing that a
01:21:20 and I just find it amazing that a validly Nazi parties were allowed to organize and to demonstrate some of the streets of this country seemingly with the the um approval of the government of the day and with the protection of the police you can see Colin Jordan there
01:21:36 police you can see Colin Jordan there who was uh the founder of the National Socialist Party in ninth British National Socialist Party in 1962 wearing
01:21:51 National Socialist Party in 1962 wearing a Nazi uniform with a fascist armband of the British movement that you can just see posing in front of a picture of Adolf Hitler um there were many far-like groups at the time in fact one of the Splinter parties of the far right was called column 88 which for those that don't
01:22:04 column 88 which for those that don't know 88 stands for the eighth letters of the alphabet Heil Hitler um they believed in the Aryan ideal
01:22:15 um they believed in the Aryan ideal white supremacy and regarded black and in most in particular black races as inferior sub-human scum these are the groups that were the Forum of the NF
01:22:21 of the NF and I find it amazing that even you know though the race relations act in 1968 and outlawed the promotion of
01:22:33 in 1968 and outlawed the promotion of raceh hey these far-right parties as I said were building links to other fascist groups abroad undertaking military training Etc
01:22:46 military training Etc um and yet you know we we know that the far right wasn't being monitored by using whether it's the SDS or the security services or whatever wasn't being monitored until the 1980s I just find that absolutely extraordinary that's all I wanted to say about that
01:23:03 that's all I wanted to say about that I'll I'll give an opportunity to comment on the other image in a moment if I can often take it in we'll take it in uh stages yeah can we take that document um that photograph down now please
01:23:20 with with that context in mind the uh depositing of bricks along the proposed route of the national front March that Vince Miller says he took part in was that something that
01:23:32 took part in was that something that members of your branch took part in yeah absolutely not I would you know I really take issue with this um
01:23:41 um you know
01:23:46 you know this is he's also claimed that we took weapons in bags to the March there is absolutely no way that any of us we all came on public transport there's no way that any of us would have bought weapons in bags
01:23:57 in bags um you know this is the obvious risk that we would be picked up at the police station uh sorry at the train station and you know it did not happen and as for the bricks
01:24:09 for the bricks um you know that's the first I'd heard of it when I when I read that report so what I'd really like to know is
01:24:16 is how much you know was Vince Miller acting as an arjon provocateur was he depositing bricks
01:24:27 depositing bricks and if he knows that people will depositing bricks or whatever why isn't there in what where are the names you know this is I absolutely refute this uh there were lots of bricks laying
01:24:43 uh there were lots of bricks laying around in at that time because you know it was a rundown area there were lots and lots of uh building sites and I think that the road was being repaved as well so
01:24:48 well so yeah no that didn't as far as I'm concerned that didn't happen and it's not something that anyone that I know would have supported um you you say in your witness statement
01:25:05 um you you say in your witness statement that you attended the demonstration with members of your branch and I think you say you demonstrated you went to the part of the demonstration organized by the all nourishing campaign Against Racism is that right that's right yes
01:25:28 yes there was another uh group Loosely Affiliated the August the 13th ad hoc organizing committee which was a it seems to have been a broad Coalition of swp IMG and the CPE were you mean were you mainly aware of the sort of alkarath demonstration or did
01:25:41 sort of alkarath demonstration or did you have anything to do with any other organization well I think
01:25:49 you know I I think um that we have to kind of Bear in mind that you know alkarath was set up in you know which was a broad-based
01:26:03 know which was a broad-based um group including trade unions local community groups Faith groups church leaders Etc um in I think it was in January 1977 mainly in response to National front
01:26:17 mainly in response to National front attacks and violence which was going on in the area um just a little bit more kind of context to that that whole March the police who I think
01:26:31 who I think share a huge amount of blame for what happened on that day um were carried out you know because the national front you know their vote had grown exponentially in the area they
01:26:42 grown exponentially in the area they were feeling very confident there were attacks on I think the Sikh temple was attacked they were attacking shops they attacked individuals
01:26:55 attacked individuals and the police at that time decided to um
01:27:05 um basically start an anti-mugging campaign and that it's well documented actually that I think um what I'm not sure which month it happened in but it was it's kind of in the early summer
01:27:18 the early summer They carried out a number of dawn raids which have been described as apartheid like grades on the houses of young black people where they Smash down front doors and back doors with axes arrested a large number of young people
01:27:33 arrested a large number of young people in fact it's well documented that one of the young people was a 16 year old boy was dragged out into the street in his underwear
01:27:39 underwear and a girl who was living at in in his house a white girl was taken to the police station strip searched and was subject to
01:27:50 was subject to um violent comments by the police about the diseases that she may have caught in living with black people as a result of this um I think something like 60 people had been arrested 18
01:28:06 like 60 people had been arrested 18 young people were charged by the police a defense committee was set up in the community to defend those young people and
01:28:17 and as a result of the defense committee which involved the families of those another three people were arrested by the police so there were 21 in total and the the ocean I think it was called
01:28:33 the the ocean I think it was called volusion 21 defense committee that was set up
01:28:34 set up they had a March I think it was in about June or July which was attacked by the national front
01:28:49 which was attacked by the national front in which acid was thrown on a young girl somebody's jaw was broken and a teacher was knocked unconscious
01:28:55 the in the community it was widely and I think Paul Foote has reported this the late journalist called foot reported that
01:29:07 that in the community it was believed that lewisham police had logged the um
01:29:14 the um the the arrests as operation pnh which and I don't mean to be offensive stands for
01:29:27 for as the community believed it was an acronym for police hunt um this it was widely felt in the
01:29:39 um this it was widely felt in the community that the police were racist um that they were disproportionately picking on young people um young black people and the national front were feeding on this this whole um you know an anti-mugging kind of
01:29:52 um you know an anti-mugging kind of thing so I think that's the context that if you know before we think about that March we have to think about the whole context of the preceding six months
01:30:05 context of the preceding six months and the out of control nature of the NS and it seems of the police so sorry
01:30:07 so sorry thank you very much um what I wanted to ask you about is what part of the events of that day you attended uh we know there was a
01:30:20 attended uh we know there was a demonstration in the morning organized by our carafe um at which uh messed up later well Park and was addressed by I think the mayor of lewisham and the bishop of southwark
01:30:34 of lewisham and the bishop of southwark amongst other people and then there was then a peaceful march to Lone pits veiled did you did you join in that part of the demonstration I did and I and I think what had happened prior to that because
01:30:45 prior to that because um you know there was obviously some elements uh you know of the in in the
01:30:56 elements uh you know of the in in the anti-fascist movement that believed that having a simple March you know um to just you know
01:30:59 you know um
01:31:00 um oppose them um
01:31:05 um was insufficient that they actually needed to be stopped um because when you think about it you know they're anti-mugging March that they called um wasn't in the West End it was a
01:31:17 um wasn't in the West End it was a deliberate provocation it was an act of violence against the community itself it was determined to go through uh an area of you know High immigration where
01:31:31 area of you know High immigration where it was already like a Tinderbox you know and allowing that march to go ahead it to me it was you know effectively the police struck the match and threw it and watched the whole thing blow up with with that with that in mind we know that a number of demonstrators who were on
01:31:48 a number of demonstrators who were on the alkarath uh demonstration that then went through the back streets to that new cross uh gate which was along the the ruse of the national front March the
01:32:02 the ruse of the national front March the members of your branch uh do that do you think yes we did but as as well um the alkarath March had been coordinated with the swp and the others so that it was timed so that the two marches wouldn't happen simultaneously but they were timed so
01:32:14 simultaneously but they were timed so that there was enough opportunity for people to leave the first March and then go
01:32:20 go to the second March and I think we did go down there I'm a bit vague about the geography of the streets and all the
01:32:31 geography of the streets and all the rest of it but we were basically aiming for Clifton rise where we wanted to basically use the sheer numbers because there were thousands there of locals you
01:32:46 there were thousands there of locals you know lots of black kids lots of not just anti-fascist you know not just swp not just the left huge numbers of the community and we felt that our sheer you know physical bodies would would
01:32:57 you know physical bodies would would stop them from being able to March so that that was your intention to physically stop the March yeah to visit
01:33:08 physically stop the March yeah to visit yeah to block the road and you know and if to be honest you know if I were in charge of
01:33:12 charge of public disorder on that demonstration I I would have you know basically um have stopped the March which you know there was an attempt to stop the marching up going through the high court and
01:33:24 and it was
01:33:29 it was um basically it was allowed to go to go ahead the the route and in actual fact talking about the algorithm March itself the route had been arranged and then was was changed at the very last minute by the local police chief who told who was
01:33:48 the local police chief who told who was told that he had orders from on high so presumably the government on High
01:33:54 on High um to curtail their March and to make it go in a kind of a circle and there's film footage of the discussion between the the one of the I think it's the mayor and the police chief
01:34:05 mayor and the police chief um where he he basically said you know you'll be arrested if you carry on if you carry on the March meanwhile
01:34:24 on if you carry on the March meanwhile they were allowing the national front to go down the High Street which the local community saw as a total affront and that the police were taking sides um we know that there was a confrontation in Clifton rise between that demonstrators and the police
01:34:35 that demonstrators and the police because the police were pending in the demonstrators did you witness did you witness that confrontation I was in the middle of it yeah um yeah we I think we made our way um down to Clifton rise
01:34:48 um down to Clifton rise and at some point I can remember everybody was kind of kettled at some
01:34:59 everybody was kind of kettled at some point and there was a kind of a crushing situation arising and people were climbing up onto um you know kind of there was lots of corrugated iron from what I remember people were trying to get away from the crush and to get out
01:35:13 crush and to get out and then I can remember being I think it was
01:35:15 was um
01:35:15 um yeah Clifton rise the one end of the street was completely there was a wall of police at one end of the street there
01:35:29 of police at one end of the street there were shops opposite behind us there were some fairly uh there were lots of housing with Gardens um
01:35:30 um a lot the people that lived in the houses all the windows were open there was lots of loud music pumping out um there were people hanging out of
01:35:42 um there were people hanging out of Windows standing on walls and it was absolutely solid solid with people and my understanding at that time is that
01:35:53 that um the the national front were around the corner in a car park and nothing happened for quite a long time and I think some people were kind
01:36:10 time and I think some people were kind of trying to find out what's happened as the March stopped you know what what's going on and they reported and a few people went up and came back and reported that the national front were too frightened to come out because it'd seen the huge numbers of people there was a massive wall of sound
01:36:23 was a massive wall of sound and they were totally outnumbered [Music]
01:36:25 [Music] sorry and I was going to say but sometimes sorry so then at some point a whole load of police horses just
01:36:39 a whole load of police horses just charged straight through the crowd right the way through the crowd causing absolute Mayhem and panic we will push back crushed back against the road against the the walls of the The Gardens and everything people
01:36:55 The Gardens and everything people climbing into the gardens to escape because it was lots of places just charged straight down and it was very frightly really frightening actually um
01:37:14 I think this might be an opportunity to show your your second photograph but yeah you know that some of the demonstrators managed to break through the police lines that were being held at Clifton Rise
01:37:25 Clifton Rise um I don't think we broke through the police police lines I think what happened
01:37:26 happened is that the police to my recollection that the police were solid at one end then suddenly the police forces came through
01:37:39 through and then the national front I think they had to show their National front badges or whatever were more or less pushed out they had the honor guard at the front with their banners and their flags and
01:37:51 with their banners and their flags and everything and they got pushed out into this crowd what were they thinking what were the police thinking pushed into this crowd and I think the honor guard seemed to have
01:38:02 have um kind of Fairly adequate police protection but once the honor guard had gone through and they had the ordinary you know the less hardcore National Fund
01:38:21 you know the less hardcore National Fund there was virtually no police protection at all which we all found considering how many police that were there they were absolutely exposed and then you know as we know all hell brokers
01:38:28 brokers I think from a public order point of view that was a disaster and by all hell breaking news are you referring to the
01:38:44 breaking news are you referring to the missiles throw in the bricks the bottles lots of things coming from behind us actually and we were you know I can remember we were just ducking and thinking what's going on there was lots of things being thrown over our heads some landing on people you know I am a
01:38:55 some landing on people you know I am a five foot three in those days I weighed seven and a half Stone there's no way that I wanted to be in a confrontation with anyone and we were trying to kind
01:39:07 with anyone and we were trying to kind of get out of the situation to get back away from missiles and stuff like that does it follow then that you weren't involved in any of that violence no not at all not at all I didn't have a
01:39:20 at all not at all I didn't have a missile would never refrain a massage in fact one of my best friends who was there
01:39:22 there um saw somebody fall over who it turned out was was a national front member and she helped him up and asked him if he was okay
01:39:32 was okay thank you and finally at this just before we have our break um there was some later violence towards the police at lewisham Town Center or
01:39:46 the police at lewisham Town Center or either you or any of your group involved in that can you recall oh uh I think what happened is that uh um now after you know my memory of the day I you know when we kind of somehow got from that situation we were in the
01:39:58 got from that situation we were in the High Street and it was an absolute chaos police fans a police fan was driven into the crowd and it seemed to me that the
01:40:09 the crowd and it seemed to me that the police just lost control and just went wild they were picking people up arresting anyone that they could get their hands on and we you know at no point did they announce yeah we
01:40:23 at no point did they announce yeah we found out later that the national front had already Departed there was no announcement that the national front had gone there seemed to be no attempt to
01:40:34 be no attempt to um calm things down from the police it seemed as though there was a you know the police were in a rage and they were picking people up we left we had to walk miles to get to
01:40:50 had to walk miles to get to um a train station because we were afraid that we would get arrested and I think you know from everything that I understand of um the aftermath of the March
01:41:05 um the aftermath of the March is that it was basically a pitch battle between the local Youth and um
01:41:06 um the the police and given you know especially black youth I mean one of the things that I could say is that in
01:41:14 that in and it's probably not that much different now is the majority of people on marches were white and yet there were huge numbers of black people um you know obviously they're local to
01:41:25 um you know obviously they're local to lewisham and you know given the pnh and you know everything else which had been happening
01:41:35 happening it was absolute rage and frustration and hatred towards place and it exploded
01:41:49 hatred towards place and it exploded thank you very much Madeline sir would that be a convenient moment certain it would let's see thank you
01:41:56 thank you good morning everyone we will now take a break the time is now 11 25 a.m so we shall we convene at 11 40 am thank you
01:59:50 good morning everyone and welcome back I will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you Mr Thomas
01:59:56 Mr Thomas thank you
01:59:58 thank you um before I uh move on in the bundle that can I just correct uh one thing that I I may have inadvertently said um Vince Miller
02:00:17 um Vince Miller hn354 in his witness statement says this but the night before that is the night before the lewisham the Battle of lewisham I turned up with SW with the swp to plan the counter demonstration
02:00:31 swp to plan the counter demonstration some members of the swp deposited bricks at strategic locations to use the next day he does not say that he was the person at planting bricks I'm asked to make at that correction so I I make it
02:00:53 make at that correction so I I make it um can we uh please uh look at document ucpi zero zero zero zero zero one one nine six please that's tab 16 sir of your hard copy bundle
02:01:05 uh thank you a document dated the 26th of August uh 1977 so shortly after that the events at lewisham it was in fact it's a meeting
02:01:18 lewisham it was in fact it's a meeting that was held on the 17th of August so very shortly after the events in lewisham
02:01:20 lewisham um it is a meeting held at the rosencrown Public House of the Walden stove branch of the Socialist Workers Party
02:01:29 Party um
02:01:35 I haven't got I haven't got Madeline on the screen actually maybe that's was it simply because she's not speaking I can't see her I'm here can you hear me thank you very much thank you that's wonderful thank you thank you um
02:01:43 um uh this is a meeting of 30 people a regular uh weekly meeting it says it postates the Battle of lewisham can we look at paragraph four please
02:02:05 well first paragraph three privacy gave a spirited speech on fascism which lasted about half an hour and the meeting was then open for discussion from which nothing of particular interest arose a paragraph four it was concluded that the main tactic of the
02:02:19 concluded that the main tactic of the now beaten and retreating National front would be individual intimidation following a lengthy discussion on this
02:02:33 following a lengthy discussion on this issue several comrades decided that they would arm themselves with catapults and ball bearings for use in the event of personal attacks um you have addressed this in your witness statement that does that sound right that um individuals at this
02:02:48 right that um individuals at this meeting or 30 people are indicated there are uh intention to arm themselves with catapults and bull bearings uh not to my recollection I think that's you know if somebody had said that
02:03:10 you know if somebody had said that um it may have been a personal view that somebody had expressed that was not our view and in actual fact after the the demonstration I'm just wondering if they're going to be talking about lewisham a little bit more whether it might be worth bringing up my other picture which I'm awfully sorry I forgot to do that and said I would do it let's go back to that now then please
02:03:26 go back to that now then please ucpi zero zero zero zero zero three four three nine six
02:03:35 so this is a photograph that you have supplied that's right yeah for use thank you yeah what I wanted to say about this is that just prior to the March
02:03:51 is that just prior to the March um Martin Webster had a press conference and he said we intend to destroy race relations here in lewisham it's you know it that's a deliberately provocative um you know to March through that Multicultural area
02:04:03 Multicultural area um with a high immigrant population with such a message of hate and I really you know have to kind of stress that um you know permitting a facilitating that March
02:04:15 facilitating that March you know the the police were inflaming things
02:04:16 things and now
02:04:17 and now intention on that March was to help protect the community which was you know is obviously under under attack
02:04:31 is obviously under under attack they actually this isn't a pic a picture of their front um the banner that they had at the front of the meeting
02:04:42 of the meeting um but they did have a banner which said stop the muggers it was in flagrant breach of the race relations act said stop the muggers it said 80 of
02:04:54 said stop the muggers it said 80 of muggers are black 85 of victims of white and in this picture you can just spot a guy just
02:04:57 guy just um
02:05:01 um looking this way near the NF just underneath the NF site sign or I'd describe him as a Charming example of the master race holding two huge lumps of wood uh on the March
02:05:12 uh on the March standing by a flag which you know is the closest you could probably get away with um in terms of representation of a
02:05:25 um in terms of representation of a swastika police standing around doing nothing
02:05:27 nothing given that you know lots of them were holding weapons Like These Lumps of wood and I'd have to ask you know but you know police racism at that time has
02:05:43 know police racism at that time has has uh you know been widely reported you know did they have sympathy for the NF you know why why were they so intense on protecting them
02:05:56 protecting them and another point you know I'd like to make is that it's also been reported that in December of 1977 Durham Police actually hosted Martin Webster
02:06:10 actually hosted Martin Webster um to give a talk to the police on the issue of Law and Order thank you
02:06:11 thank you it's outrageous absolutely outrageous
02:06:21 in terms of subversion another word that we've seen a lot about whether or not we were subversive groups there is clear subversion from the national front um you know they were standing in
02:06:32 um you know they were standing in elections they were totally undemocratic you know we could we could see where their philosophy ends you know we know where it ended you know my husband is Jewish his family have the yellow star
02:06:43 Jewish his family have the yellow star of his great grandfather his family uh part of his family were immigrants from Germany we have a family tree at where part of the family tree ends
02:07:01 at where part of the family tree ends in the 1940s at Auschwitz you know this is you know this has to be understood that these are Nazis
02:07:09 thank you we can probably take that photograph down now please
02:07:16 I'm not going to take you to these uh two reports um
02:07:25 um perhaps I will briefly you use CPI zero zero zero zero zero one one five one three please
02:07:40 uh this is uh in reference to a meeting that took place on the 27th of October 1977 at Wood Street Library and this was the Layton and waldenstone branches as the Socialist workless parties so it
02:07:58 the Socialist workless parties so it post-dated the um the uh division of the walthamstow branch into two groups um a joint meeting to discuss the life and works of William Morris a local-born revolutionary is is that William Morris
02:08:14 revolutionary is is that William Morris he was a Victorian thinker is that right I'm socialist that's right he's one of the famous sons of wolfenstead and also an artist influential in the Arts and Crafts movement that's right yeah a famous
02:08:30 famous um for his wallpaper designs which were all the rage actually in the 70s um the the third paragraph where he's a speaker speaker was privacy who developed a well-prepared speech which he Illustrated with photographs and slides in short he said that Morris could
02:08:46 in short he said that Morris could probably be described as the pioneer of English socialism even though some of his views were not entirely com consistent with those of the SW of P um a little discussion followed in the
02:08:59 um a little discussion followed in the meeting was quickly brought to a close have you got any comments about that that report about the life and works of William Morris no not not really I mean
02:09:10 William Morris no not not really I mean you know he's written many books there's there's now again
02:09:22 established in in walthamstow with the help of people and it's actually there are a few swp members who volunteer there at the moment um in terms of his you know it's pretty mainstream in terms of his uh his books and his thoughts
02:09:33 and his thoughts and his designs and I'm just wondering why on Earth the SDS felt it necessary to report on a meeting
02:09:44 felt it necessary to report on a meeting like that but it's so mainstream and not at all subversive um you can take that document down now please and perhaps a document that uh May uh
02:09:59 make give you the same reaction I'm not going to take you to it but there is another meeting in your uh that was sent to you that at which you were present a public meeting featuring the theater Group North West at spanner
02:10:13 Group North West at spanner I think that was a uh let me just
02:10:24 a joint meeting between the London the Layton uh labor at least labor women I think it is and the uh
02:10:33 the uh sorry let me just get this right
02:10:40 the latent labor women um and a meeting of the Waltham uh just
02:10:52 um and a meeting of the Waltham uh just Waltham forest district to the Socialist Workers Party uh jointly had a public meeting featuring uh the the theater Group North West uh spanner again um can you think of any reason why that that particular public meeting might
02:11:03 that particular public meeting might have been reported on but featured a theater group
02:11:13 from you know it was kind of basic adject prop you know kind of acting and yeah
02:11:16 yeah absolutely mainstream uh thank you um
02:11:20 um the next uh document I wanted to look at please ucpi zero zero zero zero zero one one three three seven at your tab 12 sir
02:11:37 foreign
02:11:53 document dated the 31st of July at 1978. I wonder if we can make it a little bit bigger please
02:12:01 thank you um a meeting that took place on the 12th of July at 1975 of the Waltham forest district of the Socialist Workers Party is an aggregate meeting is this what the
02:12:20 is an aggregate meeting is this what the um outer East London District became the Waltham forest district I think that must be 78 actually
02:12:24 yes
02:12:31 yeah it um
02:12:33 um yes the kind of meeting that we would have had here and if you could just scroll down a little bit further please
02:12:42 sorry a little bit further up it's got too far I want to look at paragraph four it was confirmed that the walls and so District would be we're changing the format of its meetings geographical branches
02:12:55 its meetings geographical branches um was an I.E waldemster and Layton would now meet fortnightly and in the intervening weeks comrades would get together in the following groupings
02:13:07 together in the following groupings under the leadership shown and so there are the different subgroups set out there women's voice industrial group
02:13:21 there women's voice industrial group adject prop anti-nazi League school kids against the Nazis the right to work and uh so-called uh black upwork um
02:13:28 um the industrial group the leadership of the industrial group has set up there Paul weirden and Vince Miller what what was the Industrial group responsible for can you remember yeah so that's Pete wooden
02:13:40 that's Pete wooden um well it was to coordinate paper sales at factories
02:13:57 paper sales at factories um it would have yeah that would have been the main focus coordinating supporting pickets for example um there was um while I was in the swp at that time I can't remember which year it was but there was a firefighter strike because of cuts and
02:14:11 of cuts and you know they would they were going to take some
02:14:19 take some um appliances away which is obviously um would impact on public safety and impact on
02:14:21 impact on fire fighter safety and there was a strike they had pickets we collected money for their strike fund and supported them so it's that type of
02:14:35 supported them so it's that type of activity that the industrial group would have
02:14:36 have um looked at interestingly I don't know if I can say this um but uh at this point is that
02:14:48 this um but uh at this point is that you may be going on to talking about Vince Miller talking about the success yes well I think to assist you we'll look at that document yeah if you can take that
02:15:00 document yeah if you can take that document down now please can we put up ucpi
02:15:02 ucpi zero zero zero zero zero one three zero six at three at tab 19 of the hard copy bundle
02:15:18 a a report dated the 3rd of January so some five or six months after that previous report that the following information concerning the newly formed
02:15:32 information concerning the newly formed Walden forest district to the Socialist Workers Party has been received from a reliable source and this in fact is a report uh setting out the organization
02:15:43 report uh setting out the organization of the branch into the various uh sorry the districts into the various groups and their activities um at presence and if we turn scroll forward please to Page Three B it lists the various
02:16:00 it lists the various subgroups and at 3B it deals with the industrial subgroup and it says this convened by privacy but
02:16:11 and it says this convened by privacy but specifically moved in towards and Forest by privacy for the purpose for the purpose this active and politically
02:16:24 purpose this active and politically aware group is concentrating on building its contacts within the local factories mainly based on the stuffer Road industrial estate sales of the party's newspaper socialist worker are on the increase but not in fact she's where the workforce is predominantly Asian as these workers
02:16:35 predominantly Asian as these workers have stated they have been threatened with either violence or the sack if they were to persist in their support yeah so so could I just say something at this point of course
02:16:48 point of course is that Vince Miller by getting himself on the industrial committee we know he was also Treasurer we know he was also a social secretary had lot had access to
02:16:59 social secretary had lot had access to um contact details of lots of people one of the things that we would do is you know selling papers outside factories and things like that is that people would sometimes give us their contact details so that they could be told if
02:17:13 details so that they could be told if there was a meeting coming up that they could come to and just you know that type of thing and that's interesting that he says um either that the workforce predominantly liation
02:17:25 predominantly liation workers have stated to our sellers including Vince Miller that they've been threatened with the Sac or violence in some on some occasions
02:17:36 some on some occasions um if they persisted in their support I find it really interesting to think he had the contact details possibly of
02:17:48 had the contact details possibly of people that were sympathetic to us that may have given us their details what we now know about blacklisting going on is I wonder whether
02:17:58 whether they use these details they knew where these workers which factories they were working in and whether you know they they were passing on details to
02:18:14 passing on details to um Factory owners and bosses about which particular workers were sympathetic to the swp he was in the perfect position to do that I find that you know I find that subversive
02:18:25 you know I find that subversive the paragraph continues the industrial group published a bulletin based on the above mentioned estate and have held two public meetings one on the Ford dispute
02:18:40 public meetings one on the Ford dispute another on the restrictions and cuts and local hospital Services the group is also making good progress within National Plastics and phono disc two adjacent factories situated on the North circular Road at chingford and are currently achieving
02:18:52 chingford and are currently achieving combined Socialist Workers paper sale of 50 coppers per week there was little doubts within the next few months the industrial group will prove to be the most effective in increasing the membership of the party it has had a boost from the current
02:19:07 it has had a boost from the current current Baker's strike benefiting in particular from the presence of Neville's on the staffer Road estate the largest Bakery in the area the swp now feel they have gained considerable favorable publicity as the only
02:19:18 favorable publicity as the only political party to have successfully intervened on behalf of the local uh Strikers
02:19:28 Strikers uh what we know of course that at least in July of 1978 Vince Miller had been the leader of that subgroup what is your reaction to the report that says that
02:19:43 reaction to the report that says that this is the industrial group is the most um it is the most effective in increasing the membership of the party please
02:19:53 please well you know possibly he was doing a good job
02:19:54 good job you know we had 50 50 sales a week was was pretty good but as I said you know he positioned himself to get you know uh you know
02:20:04 you know he was in a favorable position to get lots of information about what was kind of going on and you know this is an example of how you know this type of
02:20:15 example of how you know this type of activity this type of intervention by the swp was an example of uh you know there is a good reception that we were getting from people um you know we could Supply them with
02:20:27 um you know we could Supply them with possibly you know help print leaflets for them and things like that to kind of you know deepen and spread their calls so yeah it's a good activity
02:20:41 so yeah it's a good activity can we move on to page four please just one other brief point I want to ask you about four little e please in the middle of the page
02:20:58 this is a paragraph about uh scan school kids against the Nazis and it reads as follows scan have been very successful set up initially by privacy and now almost entirely run by
02:21:11 privacy and now almost entirely run by privacy the group can with short notice get large numbers of school students onto the streets should the need arise but for example to Heckle and impromptu National front meeting but the group started a year ago when
02:21:23 but the group started a year ago when the national front held a public meeting at privacy School in waldenstone at that time an anti-nf picket of about 200 persons was organized following the
02:21:35 persons was organized following the inevitable confrontation with police 18 arrests were made and of these all but one were black this gave good impetus to the formation of scan as a youth anti-nazi group and it has since been adopted and promoted nationally
02:21:50 adopted and promoted nationally indeed it is largely through these students activities um that the ANL the anti-nazi league in Northern Forest has been able to earn any success
02:22:01 any success um just this please but is it right um that uh the group could get at short
02:22:12 um that uh the group could get at short notice large numbers of school students onto the streets do you think that sounds an accurate portrayal well this particular you know this particular
02:22:23 particular you know this particular group was set up because as it's as it says a public meeting of the national front was was to be held in their school it was a school that had a huge number
02:22:34 it was a school that had a huge number of black kids at that school it it was a self-organizing group pretty much um you know they they were outraged um they knew what the national front stood for
02:22:47 stood for um you know lots of these black kids had been subjects and Asian kids have been subject to racism on the streets um and yeah they felt very strongly about it
02:22:54 about it um you know the idea that somehow we would have had to have kind of planted these ideas in their heads you know is his is bit ludicrous really
02:23:09 his is bit ludicrous really um you know their own experience so they were a self-organizing group that's all you know um and as young people would be um they you know wanted um
02:23:20 um you know to be active in their opposition to the National front uh thank you we can take that document down now please
02:23:41 um and can we put up please uh ucpi zero zero zero zero zero it's tub 13 of the hard copy bundle please
02:23:57 oh sorry sorry is it I've gotten the wrong number zero zero zero zero zero one two nine two four
02:24:14 um a meeting at dated the second of uh November at 1960. eight
02:24:20 eight um
02:24:25 of the Waltham forest district to the Socialist Workers Party it's an aggregate meeting 22 of people who were present can we scroll down the page please
02:24:35 please paragraph six
02:24:49 um this reads as follows a privacy then organized a rotor of comrades who were to sleep at privacy um dagenham in order to protect a black girl resident there and her Jewish boyfriend from attacks from the national France
02:25:04 France and if you scroll down the page please to the next page and go to paragraph at nine there is a gloss on that account
02:25:15 with reference to paragraph six of this report it is being confirmed with dagenham police station that at 11 15 pm on Wednesday the 18th of October 1978 two windows at privacy and dagenham the
02:25:29 two windows at privacy and dagenham the home of the name has been redacted aged 24 years a half cast were broken with two bricks one brick contained carry the letters d a k understood to mean dagenham ax Clan while the other had a
02:25:43 dagenham ax Clan while the other had a leaflet of an extreme right-wing nature wrapped around it so evidently a matter that has been reported to the police um was up
02:25:59 the rotor to um protect this couple that was that
02:26:13 um protect this couple that was that something uh often organized by your swp District or was that was that something that was fairly rare well I I think this this has been interesting [Music]
02:26:24 you know the Dak we understood that the K stood for the Klu Klux Klan and yet the police seem to have kind of um muted that somewhat way translating it as Clan with a C
02:26:41 translating it as Clan with a C uh it's a it was an obviously Neo-Nazi um group whoever they were it's it's interesting that um uh there were no records of them in the plea in the police force um
02:26:53 um and yeah you have to kind of Wonder you know why was it left to the left to protect these people was this a group known to you when you were in the Wolves so branch of the what the da Dak no
02:27:04 so branch of the what the da Dak no we've not we'd not heard of them we hadn't heard of them but um I'm not sure how we came to know about this um but the rotor consisted of basically sleeping in her house because she was so
02:27:20 sleeping in her house because she was so frightened so why were we protecting her and not the police how how might um members of the swp who are on the Rota have sought to protect have protect
02:27:33 Rota have sought to protect have protect this uh girl and her boyfriend hell well the national front were you know doing things like you know smashing their way into people's flats and stuff like that you know so
02:27:48 you know so obviously the first thing to do would be to call the police if the police didn't come you know as far as I'm concerned people have the right to defend themselves self-defense is no offense if somebody smashed their way into my house I would try and defend myself
02:27:59 I would try and defend myself and I would hope that there were people there to help me thank you so is that the sort of thing that was envisaged if there were to be another National front attack on these
02:28:11 another National front attack on these yeah entirely self-defense you know our whole Focus um you know with regards to the fascists was that you know we were very concerned with keeping ourselves safe we tried to
02:28:24 with keeping ourselves safe we tried to you know we tried to avoid confrontation with them because you know they they were hardened boot boards you know that they were Street Fighters we weren't we were pretty soft and um you know I could run fast you know
02:28:35 you know I could run fast you know that's one of the things that I would try and do is is to run and get myself out of danger um but if they're actually attacking someone's house uh with people inside it vulnerable
02:28:49 uh with people inside it vulnerable people inside it I think it was only morally right to offer that that form of support to somebody
02:28:57 somebody thank you but we can take that document down now please
02:29:04 just a few uh left now Madeleine um the next document please
02:29:09 ucpi00021044 please
02:29:13 tab 22 in the hard copy bundle
02:29:30 thank you um a report dated the 16th of July 1979 and it's a Walden forest district the Socialist Workers Party meeting entitled Untitled police are the murderers disband the special Patrol group
02:29:45 disband the special Patrol group um and if you can please scroll down to paragraph four
02:29:57 this reads uh privacy the only one of the invited speakers to attend then then delivered his talk he maintained that the role of the police in any capitalist Society was to protect the system of all um at all costs and and police and the
02:30:10 um at all costs and and police and the Armed Forces although both are working class origin must therefore be considered to be the repressive arm of the state in his view the dissolution of the SPG
02:30:22 in his view the dissolution of the SPG was just a small step along the road to a socialist Revolution but even so its disbandment had to be aimed for in the light of the present public attitude towards the police following the death of Blair Peach the remainder of privacy
02:30:37 of Blair Peach the remainder of privacy speech then adopted the usual lines of a just society would only be achieved through socialism and this is what we must all work for first of all before I ask you a little bit about the um special Patrol group the speaker that
02:30:51 special Patrol group the speaker that said that the role of the police in a capitalist Society was to protect the system and should therefore be considered to be the repressive arm of
02:31:03 considered to be the repressive arm of the state was that a view that was held uh generally by swp members or was that somebody expressing your view at a
02:31:17 somebody expressing your view at a meeting that wasn't necessarily the view of everybody at the meeting can you remember
02:31:19 remember um well I think it was it's obviously the view of an individual and I think that you know the police action
02:31:33 police action um you know we've seen with the with the SDS it seems to be entirely political you know if the SDS for example were looking you know for you know we keep hearing about public disorder and
02:31:46 hearing about public disorder and violence they were looking in the wrong place you know the national front were known to be violent um football hooligans are known to be violent you know in terms of the propensity of the violence on the left as opposed to any other
02:32:00 on the left as opposed to any other sector of society I think you know we haven't seen reports of widespread arrests for violence or whatever of people nonetheless throughout this this
02:32:11 people nonetheless throughout this this inquiry and I think that's you know the police the SPG in particular um you know and we've seen in relation to the death of Blair Peach
02:32:24 to the death of Blair Peach of the um you know the locker revealing the weapons Etc that were held by some of the SPG yeah I think the SPG were an out of control group
02:32:35 control group um just just dealing briefly with the police in general it seems to be the first Focus I think communist speakers I just want to ask you this I think was it sorry I don't want to interrupt you but
02:32:47 sorry I don't want to interrupt you but was it your was it your view at the time uh that um the police should be considered the repressive arm of the state or was that simply somebody
02:32:59 state or was that simply somebody um speaking in a sort of rhetorical and perhaps polemical fashion at a public meeting well I think
02:33:10 I think State however community policing where you know um you know the Dixon of Doc green if you like you know where um people are protected um communities are protected and the police
02:33:21 police um investigate crime as opposed to political thought which it it seems as though this was the focus
02:33:32 it seems as though this was the focus that it was you know orwellian kind of um
02:33:34 um you know kind of um
02:33:48 view of uh you know our our thoughts Etc so yeah I'd have to make the distinction between community policing or policing that looks after people's safety and this SPG that seems to me to be an entirely political force um uh the SPG of course the special
02:34:02 um uh the SPG of course the special Patrol group they were the mobile units of the Metropolitan Police that were targeted public disorder and and they were present at the anti-nazi league protests in the Southall that are
02:34:17 protests in the Southall that are responsible for the fatal blood they had um which killed that blur Peach of course we heard from his uh former
02:34:28 course we heard from his uh former partner last week that that incident had taken place three months previous to this report uh does this meeting
02:34:42 this report uh does this meeting indicate the attitude of the swp towards in particular the SPG following that demonstration which led to blood to peaches death I think it did yeah I think you know
02:34:50 it was that the that had killed Blair Peach it was a police officer to have done it the SPG we felt were out of control and you know from many of the reports of
02:35:02 from many of the reports of demonstrations Leicester Southall wherever
02:35:04 wherever um
02:35:05 um there was a lot of violence um perpetrated by the police on the left and on you know uh
02:35:18 and on you know uh you know even in yeah that's all I have to say really
02:35:29 to say really um uh he says that um the dissolution of the SBG was a small step on the road to a socialist uh Revolution um
02:35:31 um did was that a view shared by other members of the swp do you think I didn't think it was a small and important step along that road I think it's an
02:35:44 along that road I think it's an irrelevant step I mean I think you know it was
02:35:45 it was the SPG needed to be disbanded and we felt that policing had to be uh responsive to community need and it was they were kind of Behaving
02:36:01 and it was they were kind of Behaving almost like a paramilitary force against the population of this country um yeah but it had nothing to do with um you know a step to Revolution or anything like that at all
02:36:14 anything like that at all can we just scroll up the page please to paragraph uh three
02:36:24 uh this reads as follows because the meeting had not been advertised in any paper or Journal information concerning it had been passed from hand to hand amongst members of the swp and their contacts
02:36:42 contacts for the attitudes this so the attendance of two strangers who arrived separately caused some suspicion and both were assumed to be police agents this seemingly accurate assumption was based on their General appearance on the general appearance of the strangers Two Men And the fact that they refrain from giving any information about themselves
02:36:56 giving any information about themselves it was also noticed that they both left early having clearly tired of the evening's Marxist rhetoric after they'd left privacy the chairman announced that they were obviously
02:37:08 announced that they were obviously members of the special Patrol group or perhaps a special branch this appears to have been a meeting which was slightly more private in nature is that is that right that has been
02:37:20 that has been um organized amongst the swp and not advertised more broadly does that sound right well yeah
02:37:31 broadly does that sound right well yeah without any Sinister kind of implication it could well be that it was just a meeting which was called at the last minute and so um you know the only people that had been informed were
02:37:44 been informed were you know people that that we that we knew
02:37:45 knew um in terms of I think
02:37:54 I think you know we were generally very concerned with security um because you know as you've heard from other
02:38:00 other Witnesses
02:38:04 Witnesses uh meetings weren't sometimes broken up by the national front um so I think you know particularly in the aftermath of I'm not sure David this again but in the aftermath Revolution
02:38:16 again but in the aftermath Revolution there was an increase in attacks so we were becoming very security conscious so two people that turned up um out of the blue in those
02:38:31 um out of the blue in those circumstances you know we probably would have looked at them and thought who are you
02:38:32 you um
02:38:36 um but yeah I I don't see anything anything Sinister about that meeting at all thank you
02:38:49 that meeting at all thank you um now I'm going to just take you very briefly to three uh further reports before we move on to um considering um Vince Miller in a little bit more detail but can we look at
02:39:03 ucpi000011550 please at tab six hmm
02:39:14 oh nice right that's not the right yeah thank you that's right um a report dated the 17th of November 1977.
02:39:23 1977. the following information has been received from a reliable source uh Madeleine an active member of the Socialist Workers Party has obtained a part-time job as a privacy
02:39:38 part-time job as a privacy privacy privacy at a privacy school but privacy privacy and receives a weekly salary of about 25 pounds she began this employment on privacy but so we can see despite the
02:39:53 despite the proliferation of privacy redactions and as evidently a report about some employment you've obtained at a school and giving details of your salary um what's your uh uh sorry and also contains a a description of you her
02:40:09 contains a a description of you her current description is as follows it's all been redacted but that contains a
02:40:20 all been redacted but that contains a physical description of you what is your response to reading a report like that that written about you well I'm outraged really I mean I find that a real you know a gross invasion of privacy why did they need
02:40:33 privacy why did they need you know a detailed physical description of me
02:40:36 of me you know till the end what was that used for
02:40:47 for why you know was the reporting of my job uh when I started how much I earned um you know I I just yeah it's just um yeah it seems to me to be either irrelevant intelligence so-called intelligence gathering
02:41:02 intelligence gathering you know I'd like to know what that was used for you know I got a job in a school because I love kids you know that's always have and you know liked working with children very much
02:41:14 with children very much um another report in a similar vein please can we put up
02:41:25 please can we put up ucpi zero zero zero zero zero one one two eight nine please top 11.
02:41:36 thank you rather thank this one the following information has been received from a reliable source Madeleine a long-serving member of the Socialist
02:41:49 long-serving member of the Socialist Workers Party was married on a privacy 1976 at privacy register office to privacy
02:41:56 privacy the couple have been living at privacy appears to be the address but since their marriage Madeleine is the subject of uh and gives a file at reference number there again what is your reaction uh to this report
02:42:14 what is your reaction uh to this report which sets out details of your marriage some two years uh previously well yeah again
02:42:20 again I get absolutely outraged um I'd like to know how this information was got given that Vince Miller um you know hadn't been deployed at that stage you know it's so detailed how did you get that information um why was it necessary
02:42:32 um why was it necessary you know for anyone to know who I was married to when I was married Etc and as for this thing at the bottom
02:42:48 for this thing at the bottom you know I know that I'm the subject of something that's been redacted dating from 1970 when I was 16 years old still at school um and I find that you know absolutely you know I I find that really Sinister
02:43:00 you know I I find that really Sinister because I you know I became involved in politics at the age of 13. I was obviously being spied on in 1970 at the age of 16 was that being spied on before and you know I'd like to ask the chair you know what possible
02:43:13 chair you know what possible um you know for what possible reason you know this is over 51 years ago you know why can't I see what I was subject to that's been redacted I find that
02:43:26 to that's been redacted I find that really really Sinister and I want to know
02:43:30 know you know why they started spying in the first place uh finally um this report of
02:43:44 ucpi000021299 please at tab 14.
02:43:52 but the following information has been received from a reliable source this is the 31st of May 1979 Madeleine a member of the Socialist Workers Party has after a variety of jobs finally gained regular employment as a boss conductress
02:44:04 as a boss conductress and gives some more details which been covered by privacy and she continues to reside at
02:44:10 reside at um and your address has been redacted from that finally Madeleine what is your reaction to that report about him about
02:44:22 reaction to that report about him about some new employment well again you know why was it being recorded you know I left my job at school because I'm fortunate and I couldn't live on the wage although I loved what I was doing and I loved kids I couldn't afford to
02:44:35 and I loved kids I couldn't afford to live on that wage I had to find another job that paid me better as it were and
02:44:46 job that paid me better as it were and that was a job that I found at the time again you know is it because I was active in the union that that was reported
02:44:50 reported um yeah I'd like to ask why he recorded it but thank you you can take that document down now please
02:45:05 uh Vince Miller joined the Wolverine Stowe Branch it seems in early 1977
02:45:16 um the Walden Stowe branches in early 1977 were they members they wouldn't say Branch meetings were they members only Branch meetings or could anyone turn up yeah anyone could turn up that's how I think
02:45:25 think Vince Miller first made contact with the swp through the paper sale at the top of the market uh on Saturday mornings and eventually came to a public meeting I
02:45:42 eventually came to a public meeting I should imagine it was a public meeting first and then subsequently joined
02:45:44 joined um
02:45:51 um but yeah it was probably a bit meeting what was the um attitude of Branch members towards um new members or visitors who turned up how would they feel about new people
02:45:59 people um
02:46:05 um really really excited somebody new had turned up you know great you know we thought
02:46:05 thought um the more the merrier um and it's somebody like Vince who um we thought was just a you know kind of
02:46:20 we thought was just a you know kind of ordinary working class guy was exactly the kind of person that that we would um you know hope to recruit you know there were lots of teachers and social workers and people like that you know fairly kind of middle class white collar people in the swp at that time for
02:46:32 people in the swp at that time for students so you know if somebody like Vince would have been really welcomed and we would have welcomed him um Can Can you did he become active
02:46:44 um Can Can you did he become active within your group can you recall yeah
02:46:55 within your group can you recall yeah absolutely yeah yeah very active in our group yeah can you help us with what sort of things he got involved with please
02:46:58 please oh well he would have been selling papers
02:47:00 papers um he stood fly posting with people because he had a band so that's um you know could always give people lifts he went on pickets um actually with some of my flatmates that went to gromwick
02:47:12 that went to gromwick um he went down there he would have gone
02:47:26 um he went down there he would have gone on demos he would have gone to Giggs and yeah so every activity he would have joined in with every activity um
02:47:28 um you said he had a van was that in was that a common feature of swp members at that time some sort of Transport no no hardly anyone had
02:47:41 hardly anyone had you um and so of what use would that have been if a new member joined with a vehicle
02:47:46 vehicle um
02:47:51 well you know he obviously he we now know that he used that as a cover for you know his his supposed employment but it would have been useful because I think you know he picked up papers and
02:48:02 think you know he picked up papers and stuff like that and distributed papers I think he may have gone to the print shop but papers printed once a week picked up the papers distributed them distributed leaflets gave people lifts went fly
02:48:16 leaflets gave people lifts went fly posting you know with buckets of paste in the back and posters and that type of thing so it yeah it would have been really useful so he was a useful addition to your oh yeah yeah yeah I
02:48:33 addition to your oh yeah yeah yeah I mean he would have been useful without the van but you know added plus having
02:48:39 can you recall you you have described your you you have described it that your political activism was a huge commitment in your life and made up most of your took Apocalypse of your spare time and all your sort of socializing times but
02:48:55 all your sort of socializing times but either socializing with members of your group or being politically active with members of your group how about Vince Miller can you recall his level of commitment or or perhaps you can't
02:49:03 you can't yeah I think he was he was kind of he had his feet under the table let's put it that way he was pretty enmeshed
02:49:16 put it that way he was pretty enmeshed in the group socially and politically he may have kind of portrayed himself as a little bit naive politically you know not not a kind of Hardline hack or anything like that but yeah he he was uh you know part of part
02:49:30 yeah he he was uh you know part of part of the crowd part of the group you know go went to parties with us went to gigs with us you know he was well integrated
02:49:42 with us you know he was well integrated you know for three years from virtually the beginning of his deployment to the end
02:49:43 end but you have described a very sociable group that often went to the parable to parties together did he join that group
02:49:57 parties together did he join that group and was he as sociable as the others or how can you describe his socializing yeah Vince was always the first to develop
02:50:01 develop um he liked to drink always had a pint he came across as a very friendly you know jovial laid-back really really nice
02:50:12 know jovial laid-back really really nice guy everybody liked him he was he was he was well liked did the social aspect uh the socializing aspect of your um
02:50:28 aspect of your um swp activities did that have any sort of political Dimension to it did you chat about forthcoming demonstrations or plans for anything of that nature did did it have that sort of aspect to it the socializing or was that mainly
02:50:40 the socializing or was that mainly mainly dealt with in Branch meetings and public meetings and masses of that nature
02:50:41 nature well it would have mostly been dealt with uh Branch meetings and stuff like that and the socializing was probably less political and was
02:50:54 was probably less political and was probably much more people dancing and you know kind of um talking about all kinds of things politics would inevitably come up and people might then have them kind of build a debate about something but
02:51:05 build a debate about something but um yeah we've talked about all kinds of stuff really thank you
02:51:09 thank you um
02:51:14 you said that he accompanied you to other social occasions as well so it's quite a pop so there's the drink after the weekly meeting in the pub he went did he attend that yeah yeah always
02:51:26 did he attend that yeah yeah always always first of all always there with a point yeah and uh drinks after fly posting did he go to did he go to drinks after fly posting yeah I mean as well as um
02:51:37 um you know my house um lots of people often coming back to my house say after the pub and stuff I lived you know within a couple of minutes walk of two very popular pubs which were kind of you know at the
02:51:57 which were kind of you know at the weekends those pups were kind of meeting places for people as well they'd often be crowds of people with me sometimes people would come back to our house after the puppet shot and stuff but yeah come back to your house after the pub close with the others yeah he
02:52:07 my husband
02:52:17 um and how soon after he joined the branch do you think that that started to happen
02:52:21 with your group as well well I think
02:52:34 in actual fact I've been talking to one of my old flatmates who has extensive Diaries from those times and he told me a couple of days ago that he'd found
02:52:45 ago that he'd found um dates where Vince had been to our house as early as um I think May or June 77 So within
02:53:00 um I think May or June 77 So within within a few months he he was a regular um person dropping into my house um
02:53:01 um and did he become a trusted member of your branch oh absolutely absolutely and he was he was very good friends with my
02:53:16 he was he was very good friends with my best friend as well and her brother but he was yeah we all we all trusted him implicitly and uh you have said that you viewed other Branch members as your friends would you have viewed Vince Miller as your friend at this time as well
02:53:32 your friend at this time as well um when I first knew him I was married um and I
02:53:45 I probably was less friendly um and not unfriendly but less um you know kind of active sort of socially um I did regard him as a friend and obviously I had some very close friends within the swp and some people that I would regard him regard more as
02:53:58 would regard him regard more as acquaintances but yeah I regarded him as a friend increasingly um after my marriage broke up and I think your marriage broke up in
02:54:11 and I think your marriage broke up in about the Autumn of 1978 is that right that's right yeah thank you um
02:54:13 um can we have up on screen this is a photograph I think has been supplied by you
02:54:24 you ucpi zero zero zero zero zero three four three three one please
02:54:58 but thank you um this shows is that Vince Miller there with the guitar it is yeah and my best friend is there so her brother I'm grateful so two individuals who've been redacted for privacy reason the face is not shown yeah
02:55:08 yeah in a a flap it's just in a it's in a private house is that right it's just in a private house um this is given to me by recently by a friend who was in the
02:55:25 by recently by a friend who was in the swp and I think I said it was my friend Jay's house she's there but it wasn't her house it was the friend that supplied the photo it was his house and he was in the swp as well
02:55:38 as well so it's a private house uh thank you and uh is this a likely to be a political meeting or simply social occasion it
02:55:49 meeting or simply social occasion it looks to me like it's a social occasion um and is this typical of the sort of social occasions that you um engaged in when you were a 25 year old
02:56:04 when you were a 25 year old um in the swp at that time yeah pretty much yeah people came around and play music
02:56:06 music play guitar um
02:56:09 um you know have a few cans of beer you know that type of thing and was this typical of the sorts of occasions that Vince Miller attended during his time in your branch I couldn't say how many times that that
02:56:22 I couldn't say how many times that that he attended occasions where you know if I wasn't there because I wasn't actually at this on at this occasion
02:56:36 at this on at this occasion um but it shows how well integrated you know he was you know within our group um
02:56:39 um yeah thank you you can take that photograph down now please
02:57:04 um as to his uh character you have described him as Ladish and with the men and always the first at the bar with a with a pint but he had a softer side when he spoke with uh women is that
02:57:15 when he spoke with uh women is that right yeah that's that's my recollection yeah he was he would you know there was a bit of banter with the guys and you know quite a lot drinking and and everything but yeah he his to me there was notably I I felt softer with women
02:57:32 was notably I I felt softer with women and did he chat to both the men and the women in the group or did he tend to favor talking to the men how did he interact with your group um
02:57:33 um I think he spoke to both um yeah I mean as I said he was he was close friends
02:57:44 close friends um with my friend Jay who's female um
02:57:50 um yeah but but both I think okay thank you um
02:57:55 your relationship came to an end in Autumn 1978 and you said in your witness statement that was rather a difficult uh break up
02:58:03 break up by the following summer that you were aged 25 is that right in the summer of 1979
02:58:18 uh yeah um and were you still were you single at that stage yes and
02:58:27 a single 25 year old and that but in the context of a relationship having come to an end of marriage having come to an end
02:58:38 an end of marriage having come to an end were you seeking any new relationship or any further long-standing commitment um backstage can you remember
02:58:46 when the marriage broke up I was absolutely heartbroken because you know I've been
02:58:47 I've been you know passionately in love with him and it it went you know very badly wrong um
02:58:59 um I don't think I was actively seeking another relationship um
02:59:03 um I you know I'd hoped that one you know you know that I would have um you know a kind of another loving relationship at some point but I
02:59:16 loving relationship at some point but I don't think I was actively seeking women and what what sort of person were you when you were 25 um having come out of a um a relationship what can you describe what sort of person you were well in those
02:59:30 sort of person you were well in those days you know I was I was a I was very shy actually I was quite a shy um I would always it was fairly reserved when you know until I got to know people and then I would kind of open up and be much more kind of Chatty
02:59:46 much more kind of Chatty I felt very vulnerable at that time because of you know the because my husband had been um pretty abusive um so yeah I think I was quite fragile actually
02:59:59 actually but you have said you are considered Vince Miller to be a friend um did you trapped him about any difficulties in your life or anything about your life or was you simply
03:00:10 about your life or was you simply somebody who you socialize with after meetings
03:00:12 meetings I
03:00:18 I think before getting together with him I don't think I would have um necessarily spoken to him about you know my marriage although and I know actually that he
03:00:33 although and I know actually that he seemed to be saying somewhere that he didn't know my husband but there is actually a photo with him um in the same photo as my husband plus my sisters plus um you know other other friends and
03:00:45 um you know other other friends and everything at uh the book Against Racism uh conference he would have met him at my house um and I have you know Recollections of him laughing and joking high-fiving with my husband in in our house
03:01:02 my husband in in our house I don't think I would have discussed uh with with very many people at all actually about at the time about you know what was going on in my relationship because I think like
03:01:14 my relationship because I think like many women you know they're in abusive relationships um I felt a sense of Shame about it and you know didn't talk to people unless I was very cursed about it yeah
03:01:29 yeah um you said that until your relationship broke down you perhaps hadn't known Vince Miller but so well because you weren't so socially active did that
03:01:43 weren't so socially active did that change but once you're once you were you had your relationship had broken down did you become more socially active and did you become to know if it's a little bit better yeah well I I became more social active started
03:02:02 like that and yeah and he he I would have you know come across him much more and
03:02:04 and um
03:02:06 um you know one of the things about my first husband is extremely possessive and you know had he had he seen me talking to another man
03:02:18 talking to another man um for example it would have um you know been something that he would object to most strongly so you know obviously that had an inhibiting effect on my
03:02:29 had an inhibiting effect on my interaction with uh men in particular I think
03:02:38 um as you got to know Vince Miller a little better okay can you describe what sort of person you thought he was I thought it was lovely really nice guy um you know he's I thought he was a genuine um
03:02:55 you know lovely easy going you know person and you know he had the I thought he was sensitive you know he'd
03:03:09 I thought he was sensitive you know he'd had this story of heartbreak and all the rest of it I felt that he was a um you know somebody that was you know looking for um genuine relationships with people you know I didn't feel that he was any kind of
03:03:20 of um anything other than that but he was a genuine guy but we know that your relationship moved on and I want to now ask you please about that
03:03:33 about that um
03:03:44 that you give an account in your witness statement about attending a house party in ilford is that right that's right yeah
03:03:48 yeah um can you tell us please uh what what happened at that house party and I'll ask you questions along the way to sort of bring out aspects but if you begin then I'll start to ask you a few questions if I may okay so I've gone to the party with a group of people
03:04:01 the party with a group of people um it was in ilford I don't know how I don't know how we got there whether we were in a I don't think we're in a vehicle but a vehicle got mentioned
03:04:17 vehicle but a vehicle got mentioned later on were they were they swp people yeah yeah these were flatmates and people like that and the house in ilford was that an swp
03:04:28 the house in ilford was that an swp populated house it was somebody else yeah it's a semester BP house um when we got there um with quite a few people it was quite noisy
03:04:38 noisy um and I think Vince turned up late and he was sitting on a chair just just a few questions about the party please but what what sort of party was it dancing
03:04:49 what what sort of party was it dancing and drinking and that sort of party or a small quiet party or a sort of the dancing and drinking kind of thought yeah right and the source of people there first of all
03:05:03 there first of all how many people do you think were there [Music]
03:05:07 [Music] was it a largest sort of party or a maybe 50 50 something like that and were these all people at a broadly the same sort of age and Stage sort of young people in the yeah
03:05:18 sort of young people in the yeah twenties yeah mostly mostly Young people and largely people involved in the swp to some degree yeah and and maybe some friends of theirs and stuff
03:05:30 maybe some friends of theirs and stuff here did you go to the party with Vince Miller no no um you say he turned up at some stage do you know whether he came with other people or whether he came on his own
03:05:42 I'm not sure whether we
03:05:51 uh I don't know how we would have known where the party was I think maybe he was brought to the party I was going to ask you about that but the party the people in ilford were the were the SW people
03:06:07 in ilford were the were the SW people swp people in ilford connected with your branch of the swp or there's simply people that you knew through being politically active in general in the swp they were part of the
03:06:18 the swp they were part of the out of London District as it was and so Vince would have known them as well he was um so I'm not I'm not you know to be honest I'm not sure whether he independently was invited
03:06:30 independently was invited um or whether he was taken there by somebody else so I'm not sure about that thank you very much uh you became aware of him at the party is that right that's right yeah
03:06:43 right yeah um and I think you said he was sitting on a chair yeah he was sitting in a kitchen chair or something when you became aware of him what did you do um well smart him waved at him
03:06:55 um well smart him waved at him um went over and tried to you know it's very noisy tried to kind of say come up
03:07:09 very noisy tried to kind of say come up and dance or something and he basically pulled me onto his lap because it was very very noisy and I was having to shout in his ear etc for him to hear me and he pulled me onto his left and that's where I stayed for the rest of the night was that was it a surprise to you that he pulled you on to his lap
03:07:21 on to his lap I think it was yeah I think it was and some a point during the evening when I was on his lap he had said to me how
03:07:37 was on his lap he had said to me how hard it had been to get to know me in the past which surprised me um you know that I didn't know that he wanted to get to know me particularly any better but said yeah you're very hard to get to know
03:07:51 hard to get to know does it follow that you hadn't had any indication previously that he had any sort of romantic interest in you I don't think I did no no
03:08:01 no um
03:08:01 um he pulled you onto his lap was that something that you were that that was all right with you did you mind being on his lap was that okay
03:08:13 his lap was that okay that was okay yeah yeah I mean I trusted him liked him as friendly um yeah I enjoyed sitting on his lap um
03:08:22 um you
03:08:30 you said you spent the evening really sitting on his sitting on his lap what were you doing with him whilst he was sitting on his lap did you did you did you chat did you yeah chatting flirting yeah that that kind of thing and at some point another friend of mine
03:08:48 point another friend of mine who I worked with at some point I worked at the swp print shop and another friend described M turned up and saw me and came over and tried to get me to get up and dance with him and Vince
03:09:02 to get up and dance with him and Vince kind of put his arms around me and said no she's quite happy here kind of thing and so to help me down on his lap and I just thought it was funny enough right
03:09:14 right um
03:09:20 at some stage you've described in your witness statement uh that your friends sent to you if you want to lift we need to leave now was that right what was
03:09:32 to leave now was that right what was what was Vince Miller's reaction to that can you remember um
03:09:37 um were they said to him I think they said to me are you are you um you know because if you want as you say if you want a lift you're
03:09:48 as you say if you want a lift you're going to have to come home now and I was reluctant to go with them because I was enjoying chatting and flirting with Vince Miller and he said it's okay I'll make sure she gets home okay
03:09:59 um
03:10:01 do you recall uh going home that evening
03:10:08 um I think at the time of writing my initial witness statement I was kind of unsure because I was thinking did we walk did we go like a van I think now we may actually have gone in his van I
03:10:22 may actually have gone in his van I think his he may have had a vehicle and he took me back to my case but when you got to your uh house what did Vince Miller do please
03:10:33 did Vince Miller do please so he drove driven you back to the house who's who's instigation did he come into the house did you invite him in or did
03:10:44 the house did you invite him in or did you just come in or how did it happen um I think there was a kind of a mutual acknowledgment that he was going to come in I think yeah
03:10:55 yeah and once are in the house did he go into your bedroom not immediately no right um just just help us very briefly I don't I don't I'm not I'm not ask you to
03:11:11 don't I don't I'm not I'm not ask you to go into any sort of specific details but just help us briefly what happened when you got back to the house you you come back to the house he's delivered you home he comes into the house for little while do you stay downstairs and have a drink or what what happened I think I think that we may have done that think we might have had you know there
03:11:24 we might have had you know there definitely wasn't a party at my house though that night um there may have been a couple of my flatmates you're perhaps still up or something like that you know as I say we had a we had a a large living room
03:11:37 had a we had a a large living room um so we may have had you know a can or so of beer or something or he might have had a can of beer I'm not sure and then at some point we went up to my room
03:11:51 at some point we went up to my room um and how did that happen him coming up to your room did you did you invite him to come upstairs or can you remember how it came about I can't really remember how it came about but I think it was
03:12:04 how it came about but I think it was something that I think we both knew that we wanted to happen
03:12:09 thank you um and we um was that the start of a sexual relationship between you and Vince
03:12:20 relationship between you and Vince Miller that evening yes it was yeah um
03:12:25 um did he did he stay the night that night can you remember he did yeah he stayed and my flatmates um
03:12:31 um uh would have seen him in the morning yeah
03:12:35 um following that sexual encounter with Vince Miller but did your relationship with him change previously you'd said
03:12:51 with him change previously you'd said he'd regarded him as a friend but he was a very good friend of your friend yeah yeah
03:12:51 yeah um but you've now after a party had a sexual encounter with him how did your relationship change thereafter um I was very keen on him you know I
03:13:05 um I was very keen on him you know I think it was lovely if it's a really attractive
03:13:11 very keen to you know for it to continue and you know I I was never looking for a one-night stand for casual sex with anyone I was basically you know very keen and thought
03:13:27 basically you know very keen and thought was a possibility for you know a genuine relationship to develop and did you uh still see him at swp events yeah and did you socialize with them also yeah
03:13:38 yeah yeah and uh was there any uh diminution in your your contact your social contact with them or did it
03:13:49 social contact with them or did it continue the same as before I think it continued contain same as before it increased thank you very much um and it
03:14:02 just describes me how it increased and why it increased please well I think um
03:14:10 um you know say for example at meetings and stuff like that um he would come over um after the meeting and sit at the table with me and stuff like that you know more than he had done before um so yeah and so
03:14:21 um so yeah and so you had more contact with him following meetings and you might Summers you might have to socialize in a group and now there was more direct contact between you yeah right I think so yeah um
03:14:36 you yeah right I think so yeah um and you had described previously that he uh would come back to your house for drinks after meetings finished all that sort of thing did that continue yeah
03:14:55 um after that first that's initial encounter uh did um did the relationship continue to be asexual then it it yes it did yeah um over a period of I think was up to a couple of months yeah right
03:15:11 couple of months yeah right um did you discover anything about Vince Miller's past about his about his background his history anything of that nature yeah I did um
03:15:20 um what did he tell you well he told me and I know he told other people to tell my best friend as well
03:15:32 people to tell my best friend as well that he'd been in a committed long-term relationship and it kind of gone toxic in some way and he'd been absolutely devastated and heartbroken and he had left
03:15:43 and he had left um
03:15:46 um you know he'd broken up with this long-term partner he'd left um I don't know whether he said he was living with her or you know whatever but you know he he has a story of he left everything behind he left his
03:15:58 everything behind he left his record collection all the rest of it because he was so absolutely devastated because you know he thought that um
03:16:05 um you know
03:16:09 you know this was a long-term relationship that they'd become life Partners so they'd maybe get married and stuff like that and
03:16:20 and because of that he was very very wary of getting involved too deeply with anyone else because um he was afraid that he would be her again
03:16:29 again and I think as well at that point you know he'd also told me that he'd had some kind of difficult childhood
03:16:36 childhood so um I can't remember the exact details of that but something along the lines of it he may have been adopted or or something and found it very difficult
03:16:50 something and found it very difficult to trust people and to open up to people because of you know his experiences that he'd always had to rely on himself what what effect did it have on you his
03:17:04 what what effect did it have on you his um account of his childhood and then an unhappy
03:17:06 unhappy breakup with a person he thought was going to be a life partner well I made me feel really protective of him it made me feel that he was you know a
03:17:18 me feel that he was you know a vulnerable guy who you know felt very deeply was very sensitive and in terms of his you know his breakup with his long-term partner it felt as though although there's no evidence that
03:17:33 though although there's no evidence that she was abusive that it kind of mirrored my own heartbreak you know my own situation
03:17:42 situation and yeah I just I felt for him you know I felt quite motherly towards him I think I guess in a sense that these conversations that you had with him but where did they take place can you remember
03:17:54 some of them took place in bed um and
03:18:04 um and yeah mostly around him you know being afraid of being hurt I think you know happened in bed um
03:18:18 the relationship lasted you think about did you say about two months yeah up to a couple of months I was doing irregular shift work um so yeah it wasn't always kind of
03:18:30 um so yeah it wasn't always kind of around in the evenings and stuff like that so
03:18:31 that so um
03:18:34 um so you know in my memory it's about that length of time um and during that time did you go to his flat at all can you remember I didn't
03:18:45 didn't um I did actually um
03:18:48 um I found out where he lived um because obviously we had contact details and on a couple of occasions when I kind of was nearby his because it wasn't that far from the bus garage where I worked
03:19:00 from the bus garage where I worked um I think I went up there a couple of times on the off chance that you might be in knocked on the door and nobody
03:19:12 be in knocked on the door and nobody ever answered so yeah just because I thought I'd really like to see him um but he wasn't nobody was there um but does it follow then that the sexual aspect of your relationship really took place at your your oh yes yeah yeah
03:19:24 yeah yeah um I I don't I don't want to ask any uh detail about this but how frequently do
03:19:37 detail about this but how frequently do you think he spent he spent time at your he came to your house for the purposes of
03:19:41 of um your sexual relationship how often do you think can you can you think about how many times a week that might have happened or was it less than that maybe once a week once a week yeah yeah okay
03:19:57 once a week once a week yeah yeah okay not every week but yeah over a period of time over a period of time over about you and you think about a few months period of time um you said he spent the whole night with you on that first occasion uh that you had sex with one another
03:20:10 you had sex with one another on other occasions did he spend the night at your flat no what what happened is that we went to bed we had sex and that at some point
03:20:25 bed we had sex and that at some point in the early hours he would suddenly say he had he had to go home um and
03:20:26 um and would uh
03:20:28 would uh you know and give the explanation that he had to as he said I have to wake up in my own bed because that's where I feel safe and
03:20:41 feel safe and you know I can't handle getting too close type of thing and did you accept that as an explanation I did I did accept it as an explanation and
03:20:55 and um hoped that that would change but did kind of accept it as an explanation at the beginning and saw it as some you know kind of evidence of how you know how vulnerable he was um you uh the uh beginning of this uh
03:21:10 um you uh the uh beginning of this uh episode you considered uh Vince Miller to be a friend but during the course of the two months um this two months did you did you
03:21:22 um this two months did you did you develop any stronger feelings for him do you think
03:21:27 you think yeah I did I liked him very much yeah I was very fond of it did you make that clear to him would he have been aware of that sure he was I'm sure he was aware of that yeah yeah
03:21:46 um and how about uh uh him did you get the impression he had developed stronger feelings for you I think in the beginning he seemed very keen on me um he became increasingly distant and
03:21:58 and um
03:22:03 um yeah and I think I began to kind of um
03:22:03 um you know become disappointed that it didn't seem to be
03:22:14 disappointed that it didn't seem to be going the way I wanted it to go and yeah I kind of became a bit upset about it about which points during this two months do you think he began to withdraw do you think
03:22:31 possibly after a few occasions yeah okay okay um did did you consider that you were a couple or had it not reached that level
03:22:43 couple or had it not reached that level I don't think it had really reached that I was hoping that we would be
03:22:50 I wasn't entertained entertainment you know kind of going out with anyone else or anything like that you know he was he was the kind of the focus of my affections as it were
03:23:05 um and was it public knowledge that there was at least something going on between the two of you the members of that Branch know that well my flatmates knew because
03:23:16 pretty close friends and everybody knew everything that was going on in everybody else's life if somebody had stayed over um somebody had a girlfriend boyfriend everybody knew about it and I you know
03:23:30 everybody knew about it and I you know my best friend she knew and her brother knew because they were very close as well so amongst a small group of people it was known uh and would you have been happy for a wider group of people to have known
03:23:45 wider group of people to have known about it or was there any restriction on uh
03:23:52 uh wouldn't have been any restriction on me knowing about it um about me telling anyone
03:23:54 anyone um but I don't think it would necessarily have Arisen at that stage yeah
03:24:05 yeah in fact I was just going to say you know we're talking about whether people knew about it
03:24:08 about it is that I have a very strong recollection of my um
03:24:12 um one of my flatmates who I just called p saying to me one morning after Vince has stayed over and they knew that he'd stayed over when I came down on my own in the morning
03:24:24 in the morning to make some tea my flatmate said to me is Vince still in bed and I said no he's gone
03:24:32 gone and he looked a bit puzzled and said well when did he go and I said well you know he went I did three o'clock four o'clock something like that
03:24:44 o'clock something like that and my friend said to me at the time well that's a bit bad man it's only polite to stay the whole night and I think he was feeling you know this this friend my flatmate we were close friends he was quite protected with me and he
03:25:02 he was quite protected with me and he felt that I was in danger of being used right
03:25:12 um the relationship lasted about two months can can you help us please with how it came to an end the last time I saw him um we were at a meeting at my friend Jay's house
03:25:24 Jay's house um and there was a whole group of us in her living room sitting around on the floor and chairs sofa and all the rest of it and Vince was on the other side of the room sitting next to another woman
03:25:40 the room sitting next to another woman say this but I believe that she is the other woman that he had a sexual relationship with the swp with and she was they were kind of chatting
03:25:54 and she was they were kind of chatting away and she was being very flirty with him and I kind of sensed from her body language and everything that possibly something was going on but then I thought maybe I'm just being paranoid because you know my first husband had um
03:26:06 um as I'd found out had been quite promiscuous um and just just pause a moment
03:26:18 um and just just pause a moment this during the course of at this stage how long before that do you think had you last seen uh Vince has he been around to your flask and you've had sex I think maybe I hadn't
03:26:25 hadn't seen right yeah yeah they've been a break in the contact between you I think so I think so um but you know as I say I was I was
03:26:36 um but you know as I say I was I was doing shift work so my hours were all over the place yeah um and yeah so going back to that last time I saw him and he basically just didn't kind of acknowledge me like she kind of kept
03:26:49 acknowledge me like she kind of kept glancing over at me but didn't really acknowledge me um you know during the evening and I felt a little bit kind of miffed a bit upset you know that he wasn't acknowledging me
03:27:05 wasn't acknowledging me and at the end of the meeting he got up and went out and I thought like I need to go and speak to him kind of thing followed him out into the street and you know this is you know said you know you've been ignoring me all night
03:27:16 night and
03:27:19 and you know what why have you been ignoring me
03:27:20 me and he responded um by saying to me look I just don't know what you want from me I told you um that I you know I can't get involved
03:27:35 um that I you know I can't get involved too much you know I I'm just uh I'm not ready
03:27:35 ready to get involved and I'm just you know along those lines you know that I I don't want to get hurt again
03:27:50 don't want to get hurt again and he then told me that he was thinking of going to America to find himself in some way and because he liked West Coast California music and then I can just remember
03:28:03 and then I can just remember him sort of hugging me really and then the two of us standing there hugging for a long time in the street until we both went our separate ways
03:28:20 and that brought an end to your relationship did you did you see him again
03:28:27 again I think that was the last time I saw him um I can't remember in another occasion after that but I think I did that was the last time I saw them I don't think it was the last time other swp members saw him
03:28:37 saw him um
03:28:42 um but uh yeah I think it I'm sure it was the last time I saw him uh you will be aware that Vince Miller in his witness statement has said that
03:28:58 in his witness statement has said that this was a very brief encounter I think he'd calls it a one-night stand um and effectively there were no hard feelings on either side and you remained on good terms thereafter
03:29:15 um you have described something quite different so a relationship that lasted several weeks and then a a break and then no more contact
03:29:27 contact um
03:29:31 um can you can you can you help us with he says you remained on good terms after your sexual encountered was there ever any a chance to remain on good terms did you see him did you off the end of a
03:29:43 you see him did you off the end of a relationship how much contact did you have with him um well we really kind of good terms after the first night and slept together you know
03:29:53 you know um and then when he after that meeting I don't think that that I saw him with him again but obviously
03:30:05 again but obviously you know we now know that his deployment ended round about that time um and I
03:30:15 um and I again I basically kind of feel as though what he's trying to say is that um he was drunk on that first occasion so therefore couldn't be held responsible for what he did
03:30:22 did and to kind of minimize um what happened after because you can't keep on using the excuse of being drunk can you you know if you've done something you think I shouldn't have
03:30:37 something you think I shouldn't have done that I was drunk you don't then get drunk again and again and get D or you know so I think that he's using alcohol as an excuse and that it did go on for longer than he said
03:30:47 said do you think that alcohol played any part in the initial encounter between you and Vince Miller not really no you didn't seem drunk to me you know he may
03:30:59 didn't seem drunk to me you know he may have been drinking I wasn't I certainly wasn't drunk um you know may have had a bottle of beer and the he may have had a bottle of beer but
03:31:05 beer but he wasn't drunk and how about on any subsequent sexual encounter that you had can you remember yeah no not drunk thank you very much
03:31:16 thank you very much sorry I was just I was just uh I don't know if you're going to ask me this but um
03:31:28 um after he'd said that he did after he had said he was thinking about going to um
03:31:29 um America
03:31:34 I think it may have been I don't know I don't know how many weeks after um but my best friend Jay also came to work on the buses and she'd been working on the buses for a period and and I
03:31:49 on the buses for a period and and I don't know if you were going to ask me about the diary entry at all were you going to ask me about that um yes um yeah you have been able to provide some sort of date as this right yeah that's all this relationship by reference to a note yeah provided by
03:32:03 reference to a note yeah provided by your friend perhaps we can just have that up on the screen please it's ucpi zero zero zero zero zero three four three one oh please
03:32:29 uh dated the 9th of uh January which year do you think that would be that's in 1980 1980 yeah further Tales of Vince M's ex-lover apparently
03:32:43 of Vince M's ex-lover apparently he flees into the night after an evening of uninhibited lusts sorry his fleas in tonight after an evening are uninhibited loss were originally construed to be a psychological Hang-Ups further investigation May reveal him to
03:33:01 further investigation May reveal him to be an oversect vampire his Dash from the bed an attempt to return to his coffin Before Sunrise is Vince in America or Transylvania is he under contract to hammer films Incorporated until further news of his whereabouts keep your jugulars covered
03:33:18 this diary entry is dated from how was Vince Miller still part of the Woodland Stowe branch of the swp at this stage or Leighton Branch so this this this diary entry was written by my bus driver
03:33:33 entry was written by my bus driver friend Kay who I worked with and had worked with by that stage for probably about three years we were very very close friends and we
03:33:44 and we he was um very very funny very um very clever guy who felt he was kind of wasting his life working as a bus driver
03:33:58 driver and to amuse ourselves we because it's very boring working on the buses um but there's lots of kind of funny incidents that happen you know lots of there's lots of banter in the in the canteen there's a huge kind of
03:34:10 canteen there's a huge kind of you know kind of cultural sort of Rich cultural life and we started keeping a diary of that various different things um you know we used to write poems and
03:34:24 um you know we used to write poems and limericks and stuff and share them with each other and this was his diary and this actually came about when as I said my friend Jay had started working on the
03:34:37 my friend Jay had started working on the buses and we saw her once in the canteen I think it was the day before this and I hadn't seen her for a while because our shift work was uh we're on different shifts and she said to me have you heard about Vince and
03:34:48 and you know I was expecting to her to say that he'd gone to America and I said no well what and she said um apparently he's gone to America and I said well I knew that you know I
03:35:04 and I said well I knew that you know I knew that he was talking about going and apparently what had happened is that another member of our Branch who would call a
03:35:11 call a um went to Vince Miller's address because he just suddenly disappeared and wanted to know if everything was okay um we hadn't seen him for a while you know was there a problem whatever
03:35:32 know was there a problem whatever turned up to his address on Forest Road and Vince wasn't there but two other people answered the door who ate
03:35:35 who ate were Vince Miller's flatmates and he said they looked very Shifty and you know kind of um a bit weird as
03:35:50 and you know kind of um a bit weird as he described him Shifty and a bit weird and they said who are you why do you want to know where he is um where he's gone and he just said well we're friends of his and they said he'd gone to America
03:36:06 sorry are you okay no I'm fine sorry I just had to like myself thank you Carol so
03:36:11 so so subsequent to that conversation with Jay
03:36:18 Jay um my friend the driver then who you know was it took an interest in my love life let's put it that way you know it was always hoping that I'd find you know some some nice guy
03:36:32 you know some some nice guy um I'm just gonna pause a minute because okay sorry
03:37:32 apologies most undignified I'm awfully sorry
03:37:38 sorry are you okay yes I'm fine thank you very much please continue thank you I was like um yeah that so that entry came from my driver who um I'd talk to him about Vince
03:37:53 um I'd talk to him about Vince I talked to him about my previous marriage
03:37:58 marriage we were very close friends he was quite protective of me in fact he'd actually been hand picked by the garage manager as a kind of uh
03:38:12 as a kind of uh you know lovely responsible guy that you know would be suitable to to work with with me
03:38:15 with me um and you know we've become very close friends and he wrote this diary entry um Vince Miller was evidently still a topical conversation on the
03:38:27 topical conversation on the 9th of January 1980 yeah what what impact
03:38:29 impact did the ending of your relationship with Vince Miller have on you at the time can you remember how did you feel about it yeah well I think you know I felt upset I felt disappointed
03:38:42 I felt disappointed um
03:38:47 um I think it impacted my self-esteem um because I think I was feeling fairly fragile
03:38:49 fragile um prior to that I'd I'd you know my self-esteem and my self-confidence had taken a massive hit you know with the breakup of my marriage and I think you know I was kind of
03:39:08 and I think you know I was kind of thinking God if I made another mistake um you know I've got involved got involved with somebody that is
03:39:09 is um
03:39:10 um yeah it's it's not it's uh you know who who obviously doesn't want
03:39:21 you know who who obviously doesn't want to be involved with me that that's how I felt you know I did feel you know a sense of rejection but you know I think because of my prior you know marriage and everything I thought to myself I need to be very careful next time
03:39:41 be very careful next time um you you say in your witness statement that had it not been for the discovery uh that the man with whom you had a relationship as a young woman was an undercover officer it would have been a very little consequence is that right that's right yeah it happened over 40 odd years
03:40:02 I've had a happy life um I want to ask you uh now then about the impact that learning that information has uh had on you um and in your witness statement you draw a distinction between what the
03:40:13 draw a distinction between what the impact of learn that information would have been at the time and how you feel about it now and I'm going to take it in stages if I can first of all dealing with uh what would
03:40:27 first of all dealing with uh what would have been the impact how do you learned this at the time and again you describe two separate strands the first the impact of discovering that an
03:40:38 the impact of discovering that an undercover officer had infiltrated your political meetings and your political movements and deceived at your political group
03:40:49 group um what what would have been the impact of that at the time please uh I think it would have been devastating um you know I think I was a fairly naive young person and I think although
03:41:01 young person and I think although you know people entertain the kind of the possibility of infiltration and and kind of expected you know perhaps that there would be spies I don't think I really kind of
03:41:12 really kind of grasped
03:41:16 grasped how serious that would be [Music]
03:41:17 [Music] um
03:41:21 um I I think I would have been yeah I would have been absolutely shocked and distraught to to discover that on a political level I think on a personal level
03:41:32 level I would that would have um yeah I would have
03:41:37 have felt that to be such a betrayal you know I felt that I'd made myself very vulnerable to him and I trusted him and to me it would have been an absolute betrayal um you know I I know that I would have regarded as I do regard it now as rape
03:41:58 how do you feel about it now what's the impact on it now you learning that information all these years later can you help us with that well I think
03:42:10 I found it really difficult you know when I discovered that he was an undercover officer because you know I I rarely thought of him over the years um because you know my life is as you
03:42:22 um because you know my life is as you say it was a short thing in terms of the rest of my life it's fairly insignificant and my life has turned out very well
03:42:32 very well um but I had fond memories of him and you know kind of occasionally very occasionally may have thought God I wonder what happened to Vince hope hope he found someone hope you had a happy happy life and then to discover that
03:42:47 and then to discover that I didn't know him at all and that he was he was you know he was a fiction you know that's that's been quite difficult to actually get my
03:42:58 been quite difficult to actually get my head round you know that whole idea that he doesn't actually exist it was all an act he was wearing a mask it's just really chilling and Sinister um
03:43:13 um I just don't know how you know I we look at these undercover offices and I just cannot understand the psychology of these people you know the depth of deception and manipulation deceit I just find it disgusting really um I just don't know how people can behave like that towards one another
03:43:32 um Madeline I've come to the end of the questions that I want to ask you about this
03:43:33 this um is there anything that you want to say and you want the chair to take into consideration
03:43:46 um well I think I first of all I'd like to thank the chair for extending um the Restriction order to my husband it would have helped had it happened earlier you know because it is you know getting getting all this
03:44:00 you know getting getting all this information and knowing that the state holds
03:44:08 holds um information on you is is is actually quite is actually quite scary um and it's quite isolating um you know if you feel that you can't share it with the people that are closest to you so I'd like to thank you for that
03:44:18 for that um wish it happened earlier but you know I'd like you to consider the other women you know who haven't seen their um you know what what state holds on them and I'd like you to extend that you
03:44:35 them and I'd like you to extend that you know prioritize giving those women those disclosures not just the ones that are married but you know the everybody needs support you know everyone needs emotional support so that's one thing I'd like to say
03:44:46 I'd like to say um
03:44:51 um I want to know what's been redacted about me
03:44:57 about me um from 1970 I find that really really Sinister you know I'd like to know whether
03:44:59 whether you know because of um you know these files on me whether my son has a file whether my husband has a file
03:45:11 file um you know I'd really like to be able to understand how any of this is impacted not just my life but other people's lives um you know that are close to me and I'd just like to say that you know
03:45:29 and I'd just like to say that you know one of the aspects of this you know this whole inquiry is that you know we've seen the evidence of the undercover offices we've heard about their actions we've read their reports and the whole picture that's emerging is pretty dire you know it it's it does
03:45:41 pretty dire you know it it's it does make you kind of you know as I said it makes you wonder about the psychology of these people um because you know we've seen now multiple examples of miscarriages of
03:45:59 multiple examples of miscarriages of Justice you know we've seen evidence of police racism certainly sexism with her jokes and banter about women which is absolutely disgusting um you know regarding us as angry
03:46:14 um you know regarding us as angry whatever it was angry women that could be ignored um and it's the violence you know that we're hearing about you know undercover officers feeling it's Justified to punch you know innocent members of the public
03:46:28 you know innocent members of the public in the face to protect their cover we've heard about two deaths you know um Blair Peach and Gately at the Hanson at the hands of the police um and
03:46:39 um and you know I I'm just finding it all pretty appalling you know the whole thing and you know I'd like the chair to bear in mind reading
03:46:51 bear in mind reading um the reports hearing the testimony for the undercover officers you know lots of the reports seem to be as I said embroidered or Fabrications or seem to be
03:47:05 seem to be trying to justify their deployment because as far as I'm concerned um
03:47:06 um it was unjustified you know the whole of the the whole operation the infiltration of the left was unjustified if they wanted to stop public disorder
03:47:20 if they wanted to stop public disorder they wanted to stop violence they were looking in the wrong place and I think that that's all I really want to say thank you very much and I've got no further questions now
03:47:31 further questions now um but we have a procedure where we have to wait and see if other people have any questions but if I hand that back to the chairman you'll
03:47:42 chairman you'll set a timetable for that thank you
03:47:46 thank you um may I ask Miss Kaufman if she has any re-examination
03:48:03 so I wonder whether it will be possible to follow the same process as we did last time which was to see whether or not there are any other questions from anybody else and then follow that what I'm trying to do is to get some estimate
03:48:20 I'm trying to do is to get some estimate of timing and I'm saying as much as Stan now no nothing that's Arisen so far thank you and um Madeleine
03:48:27 Madeleine um I'm very much in your hands provided that my team can sort things out would you rather that we had a quarter of an hour break now for any further questions that anyone may wish
03:48:43 that anyone may wish uh to be asked of you to be a canvas uh for you then to do that at the end of quarter now or would you rather break now for a longer period
03:48:50 I don't I don't mind I'm I'm easy
03:48:56 I think uh that my team and everyone
03:49:09 further that we stuck to the quarter of an hour and could I ask you to come back after a quarter of an hour I'll be here thank you
03:49:11 thank you thank you
03:49:15 good afternoon everyone we will now take a break may I remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please The Time Is Now 1 30 p.m so we shall reconvene at 1 45 pm thank you
04:04:46 everyone and welcome back I will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you are there any questions I haven't been notified of any further questions sir no Madeline may I
04:04:57 Madeline may I um say personally thank you to you um Witnesses of events that occurred as long ago as those of which you were speaking are thin on the ground and
04:05:08 speaking are thin on the ground and especially those like you who've been willing and able to tell us about deeply personal experiences I'm very very grateful too I know that
04:05:21 I'm very very grateful too I know that you will be listening to and looking at the evidence of hn 354 tomorrow um although we normally have a quarter of an hour at the end for formulating questions I don't want to put you in a position where you feel rushed and if
04:05:36 position where you feel rushed and if you need more time tomorrow to formulate questions which can be asked by Mr Barr cancels the inquiry or of hn354 then you may have it okay thank you very much thank you thanks thank you very much thank you
04:05:57 thank you everyone the hearings have now finished for the day we shall resume at 10 A.M tomorrow