Celia Stubbs gives testimony about the death of her partner Blair Peach during the Southall demonstration in 1979, the subsequent campaign for justice, and the infiltration of the Friends of Blair Peach Committee by undercover officers. The session also includes summaries of witness statements from families of deceased SDS officers HN300 and HN13.
00:09:36 good morning everyone and welcome to day 11 of hearings in tranche 1 phase 2 at the undercover policing inquiry my name is neil fernandes and i am the hearings manager
00:09:48 hearings manager for those of you in the virtual hearing room please turn off both your camera and microphone unless you're invited to speak by the chairman a zoom will pick up on all noises and you will be on screen
00:10:00 noises and you will be on screen i now hand over to the chairman sir john mitting to formally start proceedings chairman thank you ms campbell
00:10:06 thank you sir
00:10:13 i will begin by summarizing a statement given to the inquiry by the family of hn 300
00:10:14 300 cover name jim pickford the statement was made in december 2017 during the course of the inquiry's anonymity proceedings
00:10:26 anonymity proceedings and is a joint statement by hn 300 second wife to whom he was married during his deployment and his two daughters hn 300 is now deceased
00:10:37 hn 300 is now deceased due to the nature of this statement i'll be summarizing certain sections and reading others in full the full statement will be published on the inquiries website today the statement begins with the family
00:10:49 the statement begins with the family stating their concerns about the real name of hn 300 being disclosed through the inquiry they note
00:10:57 note that hn 300 was given an assurance of anonymity by the police during his time in the sds they say quote before commencing deployment as an undercover police officer
00:11:08 undercover police officer our late ex-husband father was given assurances that his identity reel and cover would never be released
00:11:21 he operated under the belief that his identity
00:11:28 identity and therefore his personal safety
00:11:33 [Music] a great many times he also focused much of his time talking to us as children and adolescents about the importance of being vigilant not divulging information and maintaining a level of suspicion
00:11:49 maintaining a level of suspicion of any individual slash organization seeking information no matter how innocuous it seemed through overt or covert means while he would talk freely about his general police work
00:12:00 general police work he never talked about his undercover work end quote
00:12:06 they note that hn 300 did change his physical appearance for his deployment by growing his hair and beard but that he would still be recognizable to the public
00:12:15 public due to his distinct facial features and mannerisms
00:12:20 when describing the impact that h 300's deployment had on the family they state that he would quote disappear for long periods of time with no way of contacting him and that quote
00:12:33 quote there were no emergency contact details given to his wife and no support during his absences they continue quote in order to safeguard his identity at home
00:12:46 safeguard his identity at home he would park his cover vehicle away from the family home he mostly returned home during the evening and at night time with only occasional contact prior to his arrival
00:12:58 his arrival this caused considerable disruption to any sort of family routine especially since both children were very
00:13:10 young in order to preserve anonymity and to avoid compromise of cover there were no joint social engagements i.e no attendance to social gatherings or visits to friends or entertaining in the home as a married couple
00:13:20 couple leaving his wife extremely isolated whilst trying to bring up two small children
00:13:30 his wife had no family living in the uk making her reliant upon close friends which she was not able to speak with or seek support from at any time in relation to her family circumstances
00:13:47 in relation to her family circumstances joint socializing with existing friends including police officers was minimal so she had few sources of support to help her with the children whilst she brought them up effectively as a single parent this resulted in her being socially vulnerable and alone
00:14:02 vulnerable and alone there was no support available to her from the special branch at any time end quote
00:14:12 the family continues by describing a relationship that hn 300 engaged in while undercover quote during the time he was working undercover he began a relationship with a woman
00:14:24 a woman whom his wife had become aware of we do not know how or where they met this coupled with the great strain placed upon their marriage and family life by the various challenges
00:14:36 the various challenges and demands of his deployment resulted in divorce from our family a year after his undercover deployment
00:14:49 ended later married the woman we all met her and we children went on some family holidays with her and our dad although we were very young at the time this marriage also ended in divorce some years later this woman then moved and it has been
00:15:04 this woman then moved and it has been impossible to locate slash contact her end quote
00:15:11 the family note that hn 300 had a child with this woman the daughter's half-brother but that he would have adopted a different surname when his mother remarried
00:15:23 remarried with regards to hn 300's cover name the family
00:15:23 family say quote we do not know our ex-husband slash dad's cover details because he never spoke about them
00:15:35 because he never spoke about them however his later wife sometimes used to call him jimmy and that made us wonder if he used that as an alternative name end quote
00:15:46 the statement continues by describing hn 300
00:15:47 300 later postings within the police including details of public facing the family also note their concern about quote
00:16:00 quote unscrupulous individuals from h 300's later life seeking to profit from his story should his real name be made public
00:16:11 the family note their concerns about the risk of members from infiltrated groups tracing them online or in person they note that quote we do not know for certain what groups he infiltrated whilst deployed
00:16:24 deployed but we are what we firmly believe he infiltrated at least two groups with a high level of risk slash danger one of which is still active in another form today
00:16:37 another form today we remember how vigilant he made us be end quote
00:16:42 the family continue by noting the impact of the inquiry on their well-being and describe the effect that hn 300's deployment had on their welfare they state quote
00:16:55 they state quote this process has necessitated long searches within our past memories and experiences which are of a time when situations were difficult and painful for us children
00:17:06 for us children it has been exceptionally difficult for us for us to hear of times when our mother was left alone and unsupported whilst trying her best to care for us we have at times disagreed amongst ourselves about
00:17:20 ourselves about what the best course is and that has added
00:17:24 added extra distress it is also particularly stressful to anticipate what information may come to light
00:17:35 what information may come to light regarding the father we thought we knew we are aware of some aspects of his undercover work which have been pieced together over time however our late ex-husband slash father was incredibly stringent in maintaining secrecy therefore
00:17:50 maintaining secrecy therefore we simply do not know the nature of information that may be uncovered as a result of the inquiry and the fear of the unknown is causing us excessive worry
00:18:08 is causing us excessive worry throughout the years we have all upheld our obligations of confidentiality in relation to the work he undertook consequently the notion of this information being released leaves us with a feeling of betrayal particularly in the case of his ex-wife who was not given any support during the deployment or subsequently
00:18:22 during the deployment or subsequently following the collapse of the marriage end quote
00:18:30 the statement concludes by providing details of the risks the family believes they would be exposed to should the re should agent 300's real name be released and details of the family's current circumstances
00:18:42 circumstances the statement is signed by hm 300's former wife and dated the 22nd of december 2017.
00:18:53 sir i will now continue by reading the statement provided to the inquiry by the widow of hn13 due to this the short length of this statement i will read it in full
00:19:04 this is the first witness statement of the former wife of hn13 i have been asked to provide a witness statement for the purpose of
00:19:15 statement for the purpose of assisting the undercover policing inquiry
00:19:20 inquiry i am the widow of hn13 a former sds officer
00:19:26 officer i make this statement in relation to the cover name used by my husband during his sds deployment the surname of the cover name used by my husband was loader i knew that it belonged to a deceased child from wiltshire
00:19:40 deceased child from wiltshire i came to be aware of this part of my husband's cover name because he told me what it was he also told me
00:19:45 told me it was the surname of a deceased child my husband never told me what first name or names he used i do not remember the exact circumstances of how i came to be aware
00:20:00 circumstances of how i came to be aware of this aspect of his cover name or when i first became aware of it it only had to be said once for it to be imprinted in my mind i used to work in the west country i
00:20:12 i used to work in the west country i would often come across people with that surname through my work and this reminded me of the cover name it is not an unusual name in the west country
00:20:22 country and the statement is signed and dated the 20th of august 2019.
00:20:29 so that concludes the summary of the statements for today in addition to publishing both of those documents
00:20:39 documents the inquiry will also be publishing documents related to the officer hm296 cover name jeff wallace this officer was deployed between mid-1975
00:20:50 mid-1975 and late 1978 primarily into the hammersmith branch and the inner west london district of the international socialists the inquiries analysis of those documents can be found at page 108 to 191
00:21:06 108 to 191 of appendix 2 to counsel to the inquiry's opening statement for trench 1 phase 2. thank you sir thank you we will now have a 10 minute
00:21:17 thank you we will now have a 10 minute break while technical arrangements uh do permit us to hear the evidence of celia stumps
00:21:30 good morning everyone we will now take a break may i remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please the time is now 10 15 so we shall reconvene at 10 25 am thank you
00:44:36 good morning everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you as at the beginning of every
00:44:43 of every live evidential session a recording is going to be played if you're listening to it for the first time please listen carefully
00:44:58 i am conducting this inquiry under a statute
00:45:03 statute the inquiries act 2005 which gives me the power
00:45:06 the power to make orders regulating the conduct of the inquiry including its hearings in the exercise of that power i have made a number of orders which affect what you may
00:45:19 affect what you may and may not do in the hearing rooms and after you leave them breach
00:45:30 and after you leave them breach of any of the orders is a serious matter and may have serious consequences for you if i am satisfied that a person may have breached an order i have the power to certify the matter to the high court
00:45:42 to the high court which will investigate and deal with it as if it had been a contempt of that court if satisfied that a breach has occurred and merits the imposition
00:45:57 the imposition of a penalty the high court may impose a severe sanction on the person in breach
00:46:01 breach including a fine imprisonment for up to two years
00:46:02 two years and sequestration of their assets
00:46:13 evidence is going to be given live over screens in the hearing rooms it is strictly prohibited to photograph or record what is shown on the screens or to record what is said by a witness or anyone else in the hearing rooms
00:46:30 or anyone else in the hearing rooms you may bring your mobile telephone into the hearing rooms but you may not use it for any of those purposes
00:46:37 purposes you may use it silently for any other purpose
00:46:42 purpose in particular you may transmit your account of what you have seen and heard in a hearing room to any other person but only once at least
00:46:53 least 10 minutes have elapsed since the event which you are describing took place this restriction has a purpose
00:47:00 purpose in the course of the inquiry i have made orders prohibiting the public disclosure of information for example about the identity of a person
00:47:11 person for a variety of reasons these orders must be
00:47:12 must be upheld it is inevitable that whether by accident or design information which i have ordered should not be publicly disclosed
00:47:28 not be publicly disclosed will sometimes be disclosed in a hearing if and when that happens i will immediately suspend the hearing and make an order prohibiting further disclosure of the information
00:47:39 of the information outside the hearing rooms the consequence will be that no further disclosure of that information may be made by mobile telephone or other portable electronic device
00:47:50 portable electronic device from within the hearing room or by any means
00:47:51 means outside it i'm sorry if you find this message alarming it is not intended to be
00:48:03 not intended to be its purpose is simply to ensure that everyone knows the rules which must apply
00:48:06 apply if i am to hear the evidence which i need to enable me to get to the truth about undercover policing
00:48:13 policing you as members of the public are entitled to hear the same public evidence as i will hear and to reach your own conclusions about it the inquiry team will do their best to ensure that you can
00:48:27 can if you have any doubt about the terms of this message or what you may or may not do you should not hesitate to ask one of them and with my help if necessary
00:48:35 necessary they will provide you with the answer
00:48:51 ms dubs do you wish to affirm or to be swarm to a firm please and may the words of affirmation be spoken to please yes thank you chairman good morning miss stubbs can you see and hear me yes i can
00:49:02 hear me yes i can i understand that you would like to affirm yes thank you please repeat after me i do solemnly
00:49:08 solemnly sincerely and truly i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:49:19 sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth
00:49:26 the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you miss stubbs chairman thank you
00:49:37 thank you miss stubbs chairman thank you ms wilkinson um i understand we're going to have a break at about 11 45 if you could um bear that in mind when asking your questions i'd be great thank you sir
00:49:52 ms dobbs could you give us your full name please celia veronica stubbs and i think this morning you'd like me to refer to you as muzz
00:50:02 muzz stubs is that right thank you we'll be talking
00:50:05 talking a lot about um your your partner blair peach
00:50:10 peach would you like me to refer to him as mr peach or with his full name or his christian name um oh maybe blair peach i partial do you say ms stubs you made
00:50:23 i partial do you say ms stubs you made a statement uh for the inquiry dated the 16th of january 2021 and that is before us today is that true and correct in its contents to the best of your knowledge and belief
00:50:40 best of your knowledge and belief yes that includes the supplement doesn't it it does that's the supplemented version where you um made any amendments you wished and you appended two exhibits as well now that statement in its supplemented form is going to be published on our
00:50:52 form is going to be published on our website today with the exhibits that you intended
00:50:56 intended and so that will be the the body and background of your evidence um already published so that will all be taken into account so this morning i'll be highlighting some key features but we won't be
00:51:07 some key features but we won't be reading through every part of your witness statement is that okay yes um ms stubbs you are here
00:51:18 um ms stubbs you are here today to help us with evidence in relation to the late particularly the late 1970s for the purposes of this tranche today
00:51:29 the purposes of this tranche today because you and your partner blair peach were both members at that stage in the late 70s
00:51:33 late 70s of the socialist workers party and you both attended an anti-national front demonstration outside
00:51:41 outside south hall town south hall town hall on the 23rd of april 1979 when tragically your partner was killed can you help us a little with your
00:51:55 can you help us a little with your relationship how long had you been in a relationship with blair peach by the time of these events that we'll be concentrating on today um
00:52:08 concentrating on today um my ex-husband and i were spent three years in new zealand as he had a contract to to he was a secondary school teacher he had a contract to teach there for three years
00:52:18 years and we first met blair when he was at high school and then at his when he went on his first year at university and then we returned to england um blair uh visited us
00:52:33 um blair uh visited us um in england with his friend went back and then came back for good and at that time i was um
00:52:45 and at that time i was um separated and later divorced from my husband
00:52:46 husband so um that was that was 1970 so i first met him in yes [Music]
00:53:01 before before 1917. i missed him about 1962
00:53:02 1962 yes 1963. and i've lived with him since um the end of uh 1971.
00:53:17 the end of uh 1971. um so he was your long-term partner by by 1979. and um had he did you have children already by then from your from your first marriage yes i had two daughters
00:53:30 daughters did he help um in your care affair yes he did
00:53:39 now as we will hear the tragic events of the 23rd of april 1979 ignited immense strength of feeling and you have ever since been part of campaigns
00:53:54 campaigns that have flowed from that event most notably you have come campaigned for a public inquiry to be held into blair peach's death so that those responsible can be held to account
00:54:04 account you have campaigned for greater accountability in policing generally and you've been involved in organizations supporting miscarriages of justice cases
00:54:15 justice cases for example through the hackney community defence association and the colin roach centre is that right yes that's right and we'll see
00:54:27 yes that's right and we'll see that although your name appears a couple of times in a couple of reports that have been submitted by sds officers before the death of your partner the vast majority of the reports that have been
00:54:38 have been um that have been provided to you from the undercover offices provided in your pack for this
00:54:49 your pack for this tranche have been to do with the blair peach campaign and events that took place
00:54:50 place after april 1979 rather than in your personal capacity uh in in any other way do you agree with that
00:55:04 that yes i do although um i have discovered through readings with statements that um blair and i both had registry files
00:55:10 files i think mine was 1974-75 and bless was opened in 1978 and i haven't had sight of either of these registry files so i feel that
00:55:24 so i feel that there's documents that i haven't seen that might be helped might have been helpful yes i had great difficulty writing my first statement because
00:55:30 because i hadn't seen i had to write it by the 31st of january 2020 and i hadn't seen any statements at all i'd only seen uh
00:55:45 uh quite faded copies of police statements about meetings well we've now got your statement that is uh
00:55:55 is uh informed by the reports that you have seen
00:56:00 seen your approach 21. yes well you you the registry
00:56:02 registry file reference the rf reference i think you're referring to we can see in in i think the very first report
00:56:07 report where you can tell that the middle number is the 74 figure which i think is what's
00:56:14 what's assisted your reference to that and of course um the rf files are held by special brands generally and we're here today focusing on the sds which was a
00:56:25 on the sds which was a a fragment of that uh so that's what we're dealing with the undercover reporting rather than any broader policing in respect of um
00:56:40 policing in respect of um special branch generally um so that's what we're going to focus on for now we um as far as undercover policing is concerned and the reports that you've seen that have been generated by
00:56:53 seen that have been generated by undercover officers you consider i think you say in your statement this to be an abuse of police surveillance powers because you consider these undercover officers to have been reporting
00:57:06 officers to have been reporting information back to the metropolitan police to protect the police from facing justice is that what you say in your statement yes that's right i couldn't
00:57:17 yes that's right i couldn't uh i i just don't understand why i was spied upon what was the purpose and i certainly like to know what you
00:57:28 and i certainly like to know what you know how it's going to be used how long it will be kept and why they did it
00:57:39 we um need now to look i think at the context of what was going on in the 70s and the political um your political activity and involvement in um any activism and that of your partner and what was generally going on as far as the
00:57:54 as far as the feelings in the country and the general elections and that sort of thing so if we can um let's just go back
00:58:08 so if we can um let's just go back please if we can to the early 70s is it right that you became a member of the international socialist in 1972 yes that's right what were what were the core aims of the international socialists then
00:58:22 they believed very much the struggle to achieve socialism was through the class struggle and that we had to build a large working class base
00:58:33 class base emphasis was on building rank and file we had a weekly newspaper socialist worker which we we sold in public places every week so we were able to talk to members of the public about our aims and
00:58:48 the public about our aims and and encourage them to come to the public meetings we held we also sold um outside factories and places of work i remember
00:58:59 factories and places of work i remember selling outside the metal box the metal box factory in hackney when it doesn't exist anymore when it was open um we had public meetings we had um
00:59:11 um we had public meetings we had um private meetings open to members only where we discussed policy and actions um we opposed racism uh
00:59:22 we opposed racism uh in all its facets and we we went to demonstrations and supported other workers struggles and also um
00:59:27 also um worked in our trade union that worked what sort of actions you referred to you would discuss policy and actions what sort of actions would your um group take that you were a member of
00:59:47 well um maybe one example is um the national front had quite a large power base in the 1970s in east london where we lived i i am was a member of the hackney branch of is there were also two other
01:00:02 there were also two other branches in hackney one in stone newington and one in clapton uh i remember discussing um
01:00:12 one action when the the national uh the national front had their headquarters in south hackney and um i remember we discussed about contacting the council it was a council building which said rented to to
01:00:28 building which said rented to to hope to get that closed and perhaps in the end we actually were um we were able to do that in 1978
01:00:39 um we were able to do that in 1978 and also um we discussed um round brick lane the national front used to sell their newspaper on a sunday and um i remember going down there to
01:00:50 i remember going down there to to oppose them there were always quite a lot and a lot of police
01:00:56 so that that's um how would you oppose them if they just just to help us understand the context on the ground if they were selling their newspapers in what way were you demonstrating your opposition they chose brick lane because there was
01:01:09 they chose brick lane because there was a very large bangladeshi community that lived and worked down there
01:01:18 they were incredibly racist and abusive their newspaper they used to sell was really offensive and we went down to oppose them
01:01:30 and we went down to oppose them yes i mean when you were there one level it was i mean it was it was usually around about every sunday about 11 between about 11 and 2 o'clock and there was always a large
01:01:36 large police presence um so it was really while i'm trying to you know well in fact you
01:01:48 trying to you know well in fact you couldn't actually talk to them but to actually trying to talk to people there who might come
01:02:01 be influenced by them to try and you know oppose them in that way and also there was quite a lot of obviously a lot of shouting and so would would you would you chant some slogans would you carry any banners at that point or was it just
01:02:12 point or was it just banners and we had our newspaper were there any confrontations were there any physical confrontations when you would oppose these newspapers not
01:02:28 uh i think in terms of the campaign you you referenced or the efforts to make sure that the um the national front headquarters in hackney uh office effectively was closed down i think your partner blair peach was
01:02:42 i think your partner blair peach was involved in that effort as well with you is that right yes very much so um
01:02:49 he was in the national union teachers a very fervent um trade unionist and in the last year of his life he was um president of east london teachers association
01:03:03 association and um we were unions at that time our unions were um we were ah with um the the trades councils we were affiliated to on to
01:03:15 councils we were affiliated to on to hermits and hackney trades councils and so
01:03:20 so you know part of our work was in fact um speaking to them as well
01:03:26 so you were having you were a member of the international socialists which then in 1977 effectively renamed naturally renamed the socialist workers party
01:03:38 workers party was that so that it could become a more electable
01:03:42 electable uh party and become more involved in in the um
01:03:44 the um voting system
01:03:54 yes i i honestly can't exactly remember because um we you know we've we parliamentary democracy that we had wasn't
01:04:04 wasn't particularly democratic at all but um it was to make it more sort of open to maybe uh the gen the general public yes you might not have been interested in
01:04:16 have been interested in in left-wing politics that's right yes i just wanted to correct you and say i don't know if you'd said it but in fact blair didn't join the socialist workers party at all i think it was about 1977 or 78.
01:04:29 about 1977 or 78. i had i hadn't given a date but um i'd said late 70s because i'd noted in your statement you said 1977. what he was a part um part of and i think a member of was one of the
01:04:42 and i think a member of was one of the significant campaigns that was fronted by the international socialists which was the anti-nazi league actually and i think he was a member from of that from 1975 were you also a member of that i was yes and that was launched by
01:04:55 i was yes and that was launched by um or by the as it was the is and then maintained through the swp in response
01:05:09 maintained through the swp in response as you've mentioned to the growth of the national front in the 1970s wasn't it yes it was i think there was also from that also came rock against racism and that was founded uh
01:05:23 and that was founded uh by a musician after um remarks that eric clapton made at a at her concert venue and um also uh dave widgery who was uh he was a doctor in tower hamlets
01:05:34 uh he was a doctor in tower hamlets and he was he was in um the is the nswp and he was very involved in that side of it
01:05:41 it but it was also a mainstream organization although it was launched by the is
01:05:49 the is it the idea was also that it would attract
01:05:53 attract uh younger people and maybe people who who wouldn't have joined the swp but would have joined the anti-nazi league and i think
01:06:05 anti-nazi league and i think the it really took off the anti-nazi league and knock against racism and and that was it took off as effectively so did this um growth uh in uh in noise and support
01:06:19 uh in uh in noise and support for the national front and is it right that by the local elections in may 1976 um we there have been incredibly high numbers
01:06:28 numbers of votes for the national front particularly in leicester and uh there are increasing numbers of national front protests taking place
01:06:39 national front protests taking place and racist attacks occurring yes and i believe on the uh national front and won a council seat and the isle of dogs entire hamlets in the local elections can we have them
01:06:54 in the local elections can we have them worrying yes sorry i didn't mean to cut you off
01:07:00 yes yes so that was that was the particular um concern that was being um met or or was the focus of the anti-nazi league in particular and and other groups like you say of rock against racism
01:07:14 racism yes could i ask you um now we'll have a look at
01:07:15 look at two reports that are dated in 1976 in fact both of them dated in august 1976.
01:07:22 1976. um stubs i know you have a hard copy bundle i'm going to ask for them to come up
01:07:26 up on the screen but the chairman also has a hard copy bundle as well reference the tab numbers as well as the unique identifying code
01:07:38 identifying code this is behind tab one and it's report ucpi five zeros one zero seven six nine
01:07:50 one zero seven six nine it will come up on screen and if you need it to be any bigger then please just say so
01:08:05 uh thank you this we can see is a report about on the left hand side the international socialists and we see the date is the 4th of august 1976.
01:08:19 we can see that this was a meeting at paragraph
01:08:22 paragraph 2 it was a meeting that had taken place on the 22nd of july 1976 and we can see also from paragraph 2 that it was taking place at stoke newington town hall
01:08:36 just at the bottom of paragraph 2 we can see that approximately 250 people had attended it was that that was that sort of number of people in attendance
01:08:48 of people in attendance a common feature of meetings of of the is in 1976 or was that unusually high i think it was unusually high but also because
01:08:58 because uh the hackney community relations council
01:09:02 council was involved in the meeting having its first meeting and i think that's what increased the numbers
01:09:11 the um if we can now have a look further down the screen at paragraph four i'm going to read from about halfway along paragraph four just to get an idea of um what was taking place
01:09:25 of um what was taking place and there's a gentleman that's referenced um codecara in fact i'll read the whole paragraph out for context cody cara and two other speakers unidentified
01:09:38 unidentified delivered impassioned speeches on racialism generally with no interference from the floor it was only when a member of the national front decided that he wished to make a comment during
01:09:52 comment during question time that trouble occurred a man was pounced on by a group of stewards
01:09:56 stewards and ejected from the assembly room amid a shower of fists and invective a timely hoax bomb call to the town hall finally brought the meeting to a close at about 10 15 p.m next paragraph
01:10:11 at about 10 15 p.m next paragraph it was at this point that several members of the national front appeared from the rosen crown public house
01:10:16 house opposite the town hall and began taunting both those leaving the meeting and members of the international socialists who were waiting outside
01:10:27 socialists who were waiting outside this provoked a sharp interchange of slogan chanting after which all members of the left-wing group's presence decided to retreat on mass along stoke newington church street
01:10:39 newington church street towards the high street this group of about 60 persons was followed at a distance by several members of the national front until it split up into small groups and disbursed
01:10:49 disbursed quietly mrs does that accord with that can be taken down off the screen now does that accord with the um
01:11:05 does that accord with the um your recollections of the level of animosity
01:11:08 animosity and the impact on public disorder that was regularly occurring at meetings in 1976 onwards um there were some meetings like that
01:11:27 certainly you know not all i can only remember one other one somewhere i think around
01:11:28 around east ham that was similar um it's interesting at the end though that it said dispersed quietly i mean
01:11:39 it said dispersed quietly i mean and there was no i don't think anyone was arrested i mean my memory of that meeting i think is only because i don't i can't really remember what was talked about but i do remember this
01:11:54 remember this person being ejected from the hall and i think it's because there was a crowd of national front uh people outside and it's sort of very intimidating and frightening and and so that's why we dispersed all together
01:12:10 together and do you um you've your recollection you say in your statement of the activities of is and the socialist workers party was that violence was not part of the agenda and was not anticipated
01:12:31 anticipated do we see in that example of the report um the group retreating as opposed to instead of confronting yes yes i mean
01:12:40 you know the they have i do remember unprovoked attacks and you know of course
01:12:44 course members of the left were often arrested you know i remember that but it it wasn't we you know we certainly didn't go to
01:12:56 we certainly didn't go to go out to to do that you know we didn't go to provoke can we have a look at uh the other report from 1976 that's
01:13:07 report from 1976 that's in the bundle this is tab two the ucpi number is five zeros one zero seven seven nine
01:13:16 please
01:13:35 the report is dated again the 4th of august 1976 but we can see at paragraph 2 this is actually a report of a meeting that had taken place a few days after the last one
01:13:49 one on monday the 26th of july 1976
01:13:53 1976 and we see at the end of paragraph two this was attended by 23 persons again about the international socialists does that is that perhaps a more typical number of people that would attend regularly
01:14:05 regularly yes
01:14:10 paragraph three i will read out the meeting dealt exclusively with questions raised at the national conference of the international socialists and most of the evening was taken up with boring speeches
01:14:23 with boring speeches from privacy and privacy the two delegates
01:14:31 delegates to the national conference now this was a uh report being submitted by an sds officer back to his superiors um can you just help us with
01:14:37 with what the content would would have been that was being described there as boring speeches
01:14:42 speeches i'm afraid i can't remember
01:14:50 paragraph four little of any interest to special branch was discussed during the session of questions from the floor except that privacy accepted the role of distributor
01:15:01 distributor within the east inner east london district of the worker and also the role of irish coordinator for the district privacy suggested a programme of anti-army recruiting
01:15:14 anti-army recruiting within the district especially outside army careers information offices this was met with stern approval from privacy
01:15:27 privacy who promised to act upon this suggestion so um do we see from this report that that what appears to be of interest using the expression in the report to special branch doesn't appear to be the content of the
01:15:44 doesn't appear to be the content of the speeches but rather here in this example the mechanisms of where the newspaper might be
01:15:45 might be being distributed and what events are coming up that are going to take place in
01:15:54 place in in public places outside here for example army officers yes uh this person was she was also a member of tom troops out movement and we we often shared meetings and
01:16:12 we we often shared meetings and uh supported each other yes and that's why
01:16:18 why i know the policy was to um to talk to young men and women who were thinking about
01:16:20 about uh signing up for the armed services yes to talk to them about it and also i just wanted to go back to the boring
01:16:31 wanted to go back to the boring it was this was probably i mean we were probably talking about uh policy and that sort of thing and maybe
01:16:38 maybe you know undercover officer obviously although he was pretending to be in is he
01:16:46 he you know he wasn't there because of his political beliefs and so might have found it rather boring yes and what we do see um by that description is is the as we say
01:17:01 description is is the as we say the the interest there from the policing perspective which is on the face of this example more to do with
01:17:09 with what's going what are the actions that have been to be taken by the group what perhaps where the where the scope for
01:17:14 for um disorder might arise except he he didn't know that um we were going to talk about
01:17:25 talk about um uh what troops out movement might be doing
01:17:32 um the sds says um
01:17:39 proclaimed uh purpose in its early days was to assist with the policing of public events and demonstrations as we understand is the justification for the setting up of the unit
01:17:51 unit and so intelligence about who was going to be attending what events and where was obviously going to be something that would be of interest to this particular unit
01:18:05 unit obviously one of those events that took place
01:18:06 place in 1979 was the demonstration that took place at south hall town hall which had the tragic consequences that it did
01:18:20 that it did and so on the face of it undercover policing
01:18:22 policing and advance information about demonstrations like that is something that the
01:18:27 that the sds would have been interested in and how to police events that they know are coming up with something that the sds
01:18:35 sds ought to be interested in and indeed what policing to deploy on the streets would also have been a consideration to have been factored in
01:18:49 have been factored in and we know and you can help us with the policing that was used at that event in 1979 so can we now move um if we may to that year
01:19:06 um if we may to that year and can we start by looking at tab three in your bundle and his and the chairman's bundle and on the screen please can we have um
01:19:17 report ucpi five zeroes two one two zero seven
01:19:37 um mr stubbs i know that you've um made particular reference to this report in your statement and if i may i'll use this as the bedrock to
01:19:48 i'll use this as the bedrock to uh deal with the topic and then ask for your
01:19:52 your personal recollections if i may deal with it in that way this is a report dated the 26th of april 1979 so three days later
01:20:03 1979 so three days later than the demonstration itself it's a report um we can't see it on the page at the moment because it's zoomed in but
01:20:15 in but and we don't need to but we'll see it in a second it's a report about the socialist workers party and it is reporting back from a meeting that had taken place literally the day after the south hall town hall events
01:20:30 town hall events it was on the 24th of april 1979 it was at a public a public house in northwest london
01:20:41 northwest london and it was taking place at eight o'clock in the evening there were about 60 people present paragraph three references tony cliff being the main speaker
01:20:58 tony cliff being the main speaker of the evening but he declined to speak about
01:21:01 about the planned discussion because he was much more concerned to talk about the recent events now i understand ms dubs you weren't present at this meeting for understandable reasons
01:21:13 for understandable reasons um but if i may i would like to read out from
01:21:14 from halfway down that paragraph so we might just need to scroll up on the screen please
01:21:25 thank you
01:21:40 uh he in fact i'll start from the second the third line down he considered it far more important thank you technician to discuss
01:21:44 discuss the battles with the police during the recent anti-national front demonstrations he concluded that the difference between leicester on the 21st of april 1979
01:22:05 leicester on the 21st of april 1979 and south hall on the 23rd of april 1979 was in the preparation planning and organization done by the anti-nazi league
01:22:06 league because the anl had provided local stewards and maps of the leicester area there had been a successful attack there on the police
01:22:20 on the police by about 200 demonstrators high police injuries
01:22:21 injuries and a small number of arrests on the other hand at south hall due to the lack of organization
01:22:32 the lack of organization and inadequate anl stewarding a lot of police had been injured many demonstrators had been arrested and more importantly men and demonstrators had been badly injured with one death
01:22:47 injured with one death cliff therefore maintained that it was bet that it was essential that any future anti-nf action should be better organized please scroll down
01:23:05 many of the contributors from the floor then recounted their adventures during the demonstrations in leicester and southall and discussed instances of quotes
01:23:11 quotes extreme police brutality end quotes paragraph five finally it was announced
01:23:22 paragraph five finally it was announced that on saturday the 28th of april 1979 at south hall there would be a peaceful march and vigil in memory of blair peach who had died during the demonstrations on the 23rd of april
01:23:42 ms stubbs we can see from that report that there had been
01:23:50 a demonstration in leicester on the 21st of april
01:23:56 of april then two days later a demonstration in south hall on the 23rd of april in 1979 and do is this because the national front had arranged to hold meetings and in particular the 23rd of april
01:24:11 particular the 23rd of april had arranged to hold a meeting at south hall town hall in the run-up to the general election in 1979
01:24:22 1979 and despite much lobbying by many groups to persuade the local council not to allow the meeting to take place at that town hall the national front meeting had taken place there and it had gone ahead and so it was felt that there were
01:24:36 that there were ought to be a demonstration and a picket outside
01:24:37 outside the south hall town hall so as to demonstrate the strength of feeling against the national front
01:24:48 feeling against the national front on that occasion the 23rd of april and that was the event that both you and your partner attended is that right yes um
01:24:59 yes um with that context in mind i know you were asked in your um statement in the build up to those to that event and and that demonstration
01:25:12 that demonstration had you attended any meetings discussing what
01:25:14 what activities should or should not take place on the 23rd of april
01:25:24 yes can i just say something before um should we take this report now so we can see you ms dubs thank you
01:25:34 i wasn't at the meeting tony cliff founded the international socialists
01:25:44 uh he was very different to me i actually i i wasn't at leicester
01:25:48 leicester i i knew about what happened but it's absol
01:25:51 absol i think it's absolutely wrong to compare lester and southall and to say because there wasn't enough anl stewarding i mean southfold town in itself was a very close-knit community
01:26:03 very close-knit community um it had a very high percentage um different different ethnic groupings and um
01:26:13 um and a real industrial base at that time there were lots of um uh factories around uh heathrow and a lot of the residents some worked there so there's a very strong community
01:26:26 there so there's a very strong community a very strong indian workers association um on the days there was an over 5000 people signed a petition to stop
01:26:37 petition to stop the the candidates standing didn't even live in southall and the national front hadn't been known in south all but they were targeting towns with high um asian
01:26:51 towns with high um asian and black population not just leicester but
01:26:54 but but brixton somewhere in south east london um
01:26:55 london um east london they they they marched on the day before to ealing town hall to hand the petition in and
01:27:06 in and they asked they actually asked anti-racists from all over london to come and support them but they provided their own leaflets and they called a half day strike on monday
01:27:21 they called a half day strike on monday nearly all the factories closed down the whole town closed down and the plan was to have a peaceful demonstration outside the town hall but literally by hoppost one the police over three
01:27:39 by hoppost one the police over three thousand police had moved in with horses and it was a town under siege and they with something which the national council for civil liberties later said the worst thing they did was to cordon off the town
01:27:51 off the town southall town hall was at a crossroads and they closed off all those four roads so no one could move and when the sit-down started they started dragging
01:28:04 started dragging just people who who just felt very angry about the national front but weren't weren't in the anti-nazi league they weren't in is there was a really strong south or youth movement because there'd been a
01:28:17 movement because there'd been a tragic killing of white youths by um a young sikh uh girdup singed when in when he was only 17 he was killed in 1976
01:28:29 killed in 1976 in south hall um and the indian workers association was a very s was very strong there um they had uh they also had a an asian mp
01:28:42 they also had a an asian mp piers um i can't remember his last name sorry
01:28:43 sorry um so they asked anti-racist to come along and we heard about it through our trade unions the anti-nazi league were involved there wasn't an is branch
01:29:00 wasn't an is branch in southall there was one in acton i believe and one in hounslow but not actually in southall so they were asking us to come and protest against this this meeting you know which that's what the national front do they set up
01:29:13 the national front do they set up pre-election meetings in places they don't have a stronghold it was just to absolutely cause mayhem and i think and it was almost because of what happened it was almost as the police punished the people of south form in
01:29:24 punished the people of south form in in what what happened later on with the
01:29:36 in what what happened later on with the uh with the 700 people who arrested and then there were 348 people actually uh charged with offenses i you are um you are very able um helping us with the with the details um
01:29:50 details um of that day and you have very clearly set out a lot of that detail in your statement so thank you i think you're about to say do you want me to carry on with the detail of of that those numbers um if i if i may just
01:30:01 those numbers um if i if i may just try and take it in slightly coronal chronological stage um we can see there that there is a report
01:30:10 report that post-dates the events where the swp were talking about and tony cliff obviously um giving his opinion about where things had gone right or wrong um what i was hoping you might be able to
01:30:24 what i was hoping you might be able to shine some light on if you can from your recollections is whether discussions took place before um the 23rd of april as to either in swp meetings or any other
01:30:37 in swp meetings or any other group or branch meetings that you recall about what activities were going to take place
01:30:44 place and what activity and what actions were going to take place by those who are going to attend no it was we both heard of it through our unions i
01:30:51 unions i i worked in islington i was in nalgo and um we heard of it through now go and blair heard of it in um entire hamlet through um
01:31:06 in um entire hamlet through um the nut so i don't remember any discussions it was something that also the people of southall has asked us to come to and you know some of the some of the newspaper headings
01:31:21 newspaper headings uh made it sound as though outsiders came and caused trouble you know blair after he was killed was was called the red and as labeled as so so left-wing the time it wasn't surprising
01:31:32 surprising he got killed were you um attending meetings of any political groups
01:31:42 groups at that stage in 1979 before this event do you recall yes i would have been um attending um meetings of hackney swp
01:31:57 attending um meetings of hackney swp yes i i don't have an enormous memories um
01:31:58 um but yes i would have been but certainly i certainly don't remember either of us some
01:32:06 some hearing you know hearing about it through swp it was really through our unions from what you understood before you were before you attended the event
01:32:18 event did you understand it was going to be um widely attended that high numbers of people were going to be attending this
01:32:29 demonstration we hoped there would be yes we hoped there would that people would respond to what south or the dust just and uh and you have and you gave us a
01:32:42 and uh and you have and you gave us a an insight in what you've just said you have
01:32:42 have um extremely grave uh view an extremely great view of the policing tactics that were deployed and considered appropriate for that day
01:32:56 and considered appropriate for that day and the conduct of police on the street on the 23rd of april yes
01:33:08 you i think um and you deal with this um at your uh paragraph 36 um of your statement um
01:33:19 of your statement um you attended at a different time from from blair peach he'd it was the school holidays i think you'd said and he was a teacher so hadn't been at school that day and you were at work and so you'd arranged
01:33:29 arranged to meet him there yes um can you arrange to meet roundabout outside the town
01:33:40 town hall but of course no one could get near the town hall so can you now tell us um what about that uh day if if the events aren't too difficult for you to recall yes no i came with friends from from work
01:33:55 no i came with friends from from work uh there were about six or seven of us and we arrived in southhall and the whole time was barricaded and it was very very difficult to get anywhere and also
01:34:06 also um i'd actually never been to southall before
01:34:10 before and probably not many people had and it was out of west london and we lived in east london i remember eventually trying getting round on the um the east side uh
01:34:24 um the east side uh near southall park i remember that quite quite vividly because um we were chased by police on horseback and also police on foot with truncheons
01:34:36 truncheons chasing us and hitting people did you manage to make it round to the side of the demonstration that you wanted to
01:34:49 wanted to i then um i couldn't get near the town hall but then i sort of went um just trying to think sort of north and round some back streets and managed to get in
01:34:58 to get in to the way but then it was
01:35:09 to the way but then it was it was just absolutely you know there were sort of ten rows of police and lots of demonstrators just surging around
01:35:09 around and i think about um
01:35:22 and i think about um uh about six o'clock i sort of managed oh no about seven o'clock to get some back to the station and go back to hackney
01:35:24 hackney you'd obviously fail to meet up with and was it um later that evening about 10 o'clock at night
01:35:35 10 o'clock at night that you received a call from your friend uh telling you yes she was at healing hospital and phoned me and said i should come quickly because they had been hurt
01:35:50 miss mustaps you
01:36:01 know and have now seen that um and we'll deal with the reports that flowed
01:36:02 flowed from um the events that day but amongst the reports that you've been shown in it includes the uh reporting of
01:36:17 the uh reporting of from undercover police officers who attended the funeral of your partner that took place on the 13th of june within a couple of months of those events
01:36:30 events can i just say one thing which i wanted to say sorry um i just wanted to say that was there was one officer who there was only one report from one
01:36:46 there was only one report from one undercover officer about i'm attending the 23rd of april demonstration um i did have his hn number i can't find it um
01:36:54 um he oh no uh
01:37:05 i think i i can't remember his number i can try and find it pew in the break um
01:37:08 um he in his report which was very very short he said um he'd gone to south was horrified um at the police that he'd seen the violence against the police
01:37:20 violence against the police and he left early before the incident with blair uh it it
01:37:32 uh it it it was incredible it was once again um i felt that he was distancing himself immediately
01:37:36 from the person who'd been killed
01:37:43 and it it remind it just reminded me of um
01:37:56 no that's after um it later reminded me uh you haven't come to that but it later reminded me about um
01:37:58 um uh the the um the six police officers who were
01:38:09 the six police officers who were suspected one of them whom killing blair that they in their statements i mean in the cast report uh cass says that um they um they lied to him they they um
01:38:20 um they lied to him they they um tried to say that the carrier which they were in
01:38:21 were in u11 uh stopped at the bottom of broadway and beechcroft they didn't want to say that it stopped at the top of beechcroft in the corner of
01:38:37 corner of portrait which is where blair received the blow on the head which killed him and
01:38:42 and two of them changed their statements and they also said there were other police present
01:38:43 present present which um cass had done ruled out um can i help you with your reference i think did you did you take that
01:38:55 take that um reference from the undercover policing from one of the uh the sort of cumulative gists of it might have been
01:39:04 have been yes i'm just thinking i think it's yes it was the the closed officer just the end of summer
01:39:09 summer so an officer whose name is
01:39:16 and that was even more horrifying to me because
01:39:21 because you know where we met with most of the undercover officers at least we know their cover name this man we don't know his covenant his real name and not even his hn number nothing and you feel that there are parallels in the way that that
01:39:35 parallels in the way that that experience of that officer was reported on the 28th of april and parallels with the way that the spg officers and special patrol group officers gave their evidence to the various
01:39:47 evidence to the various um investigations that took place which we will come to thank you um you have seen um that then as far as actual undercover reporting that you um have have seen
01:40:00 reporting that you um have have seen you uh know and are aware that there were undercover police officers present at your partner's funeral on the 13th of june
01:40:11 june and that they that they provided a list of the
01:40:15 of the vast numbers of named names of people that attended on that occasion and i think you've also seen in the report three um
01:40:27 report three um reports where photographs had been taken of people that have been attending at the funeral and i think you've commented in your statement you find it very distressing and you found it distressing when you learned of the fact that undercover police officers had been present at his funeral
01:40:39 present at his funeral and photographs taken is that right yes it was hn 106 and he put in his he put in his statement that he attended the funeral because in
01:40:52 the funeral because in case there'd be a risk of public disorder
01:40:53 disorder i mean i thought what absolutely ludicrous statement um blair peach's mother his aunt his oldest brother and his wife
01:41:08 aunt his oldest brother and his wife and a cousin had all come to new zealand for the funeral there were 10 000 people at the funeral they all came to pay their respects
01:41:19 they all came to pay their respects there was he also said that it was to um protect his undercover identity which i think is is rarely sickening if he has to do that and also the list of attendees i think i counted them i think they were about
01:41:37 counted them i think they were about he listed 71 people i mean there were 10 000 people yes and i'm afraid i the three photographs i couldn't identify didn't know who they were
01:41:42 were thank you in terms then of events that flowed after um the death of your partner um we can see that
01:41:58 um we can see that uh just looking at a few examples of the reporting
01:41:59 reporting that um is in 1979 after the april date we can see um the real mobilizing of the feeling of the real sense of grievance against
01:42:11 of the real sense of grievance against the police that this triggered in people
01:42:23 the police that this triggered in people as well as support for you and your loss and may i just now go through a few examples of the reports from 1979 in the aftermath of these events please can we first of all turn to tab four
01:42:30 four which is report ucpi five zeros two one two eight
01:42:40 please
01:42:52 two one two one eight i think sorry did i say that incorrectly two one two one eight i apologize to the technicians
01:42:59 thank you sir
01:43:17 again this was not a meeting uh ms stops where you were present but this is indicative of the mobilization of the people in support of
01:43:28 support of what what you'd gone through and an outrage
01:43:33 outrage at the events this is a report dated the third of may 1979 about a meeting that had taken place on monday the 30th of april 1979. i'm going to read from paragraph three
01:43:50 i'm going to read from paragraph three the meeting was chaired by privacy and began with a summary of the incidents during the past week at south hall given by privacy a teacher and member of acton swp he stated that a temporary headquarters had been set up in south hall
01:44:04 had been set up in south hall from which privacy and privacy would be carrying out an investigation into the death of blair peach
01:44:14 and if we go down to paragraph seven please halfway down right at the bottom of the page i'll read from paragraph seven two collection funds have been set up as a
01:44:26 collection funds have been set up as a result of blair peach's death in south hall
01:44:29 hall one fund is for peach's dependence and the other to pay the fines of those arrested during the anti-national front demonstration on the 24th of april 1979.
01:44:40 on the 24th of april 1979. you can take that report down does that
01:44:48 accord with your recollection ms stubbs of
01:44:51 of what was taking place on the ground people
01:44:54 people commissioning their own investigation into what had happened at south hall town hall and so that temporary headquarters almost like a military operation in itself had been set up
01:45:08 set up and uh and then in support of you there was a
01:45:12 was a and others there was a fund collection going on
01:45:14 going on is that just an example of the strength of feeling that was taking place yes it was i i i didn't really know about
01:45:21 about the setting up the headquarters certainly when we come on to the fence of blair peach and i was more involved with them
01:45:32 i was more involved with them yes the funds yes it was absolutely amazing because um there's no uh legal aid for inquests and our inquest cost twelve thousand pounds and they raised
01:45:42 raised twenty in the first year for the friends so it was amazing thank you
01:45:50 you the um we'll see reference to um to the setting up very shortly of this
01:46:05 this group can i just look at the next report tab five ucpi number five zeros two one two seven zero
01:46:26 this was a in in the left column um if we need to see it we can check it but it's clear from the context i'm about to read
01:46:31 read that this was a meeting of the indian workers association in south hall and this was the very vibrant uh association that you referred to um earlier is that right ms stubbs yes this says um
01:46:47 yes this says um that the under mentioned persons were among those who took part in the demonstration in south on the 28th of april
01:46:55 april 1979 organized by the indian workers association and the anti-nazi league in protest at police actions during the anti-knights the anti-national front demonstration
01:47:08 the anti-national front demonstration in south hall on the 23rd of april and in particular the death of blair peach so another example of what was going on on the ground and the
01:47:23 what was going on on the ground and the strength of feeling and the actions that were being organized in the immediate aftermath of this event is that right yes can we have a look now at the next report tab six
01:47:34 ucpi21297 please
01:47:44 and we can see in the left hand side of that page
01:47:50 that page of this report by this time which is um the 30th of may 1979 the friends of blair peach committee had been established
01:48:02 been established so this is what you were referring to i think ms stubbs in terms of the action group being set up very quickly after after the event
01:48:09 the event is that right yes um we submitted here with is a leaflet which has been received from a reliable source
01:48:21 reliable source the leaflet was issued by the friends of blair peach committee and seeks to highlight the circumstances which it maintains
01:48:34 which it maintains led to the death of blair peach at south hall on the 23rd of april 1979 during an anti-national front demonstration number two it contains a list of activities necessary to widen the campaign
01:48:41 campaign especially within the trade union movement and is mainly the work of privacy who was with peach at the time he received the injuries which it is alleged caused his death
01:48:59 the officer reporting this information back on this report to the sds that paragraph three goes on to add it is perhaps of interest to note that privacy a dedicated member of the socialist workers party
01:49:13 of the socialist workers party and a close personal friend of peach is highly critical of the way the swp central committee are handling the whole issue and especially of the party's coverage of the socialist in the socialist workers newspaper and she
01:49:28 workers newspaper and she and has let it be known that she intends to rectify this situation by publicizing the aims and the activities of the friends of blair peach committee
01:49:41 peach committee at every available opportunity that line concludes
01:49:44 concludes if we may go to the next page we can see the leaflet and i just wanted to um confirm the objectives of the committee with you halfway down the page um stops if if we can
01:49:56 um stops if if we can if we scroll to the latter part yes second hole punch we can see will be a very faint type um we call
01:50:09 type um we call on can we see those words and stops you able to see it and make it out a little yeah thank you very much
01:50:14 very much we call on our members to a organized collections in their workplaces for the blair peach memorial fund
01:50:22 fund b circulate the
01:50:29 uh the petition calling for a full public inquiry c secure the maximum attendance at the funeral ceremony
01:50:41 ceremony further we call on the national executive of our union to a make a substantial donation to the blair peach memorial fund
01:50:53 blair peach memorial fund b affiliate to the national anti-nazi sorry to the anti-nazi league c give full support to the calls to disband the special patrol group and to bring to justice those responsible for blair peach's death
01:51:14 is that were those the core um aims as you understood them to be behind the
01:51:20 the this group that had been set up um as a result of the events on the 23rd of april with stubs yes i wasn't involved with the friends immediately afterwards but yes i knew those were the
01:51:32 those were the core events although are you gonna i mean
01:51:38 mean you know the things that we were going to go on to the things that they were asking us to do or asking people to do it things like to contact your mp
01:51:47 your mp to write to the newspaper about for a letter to um to speak to your local radio station and and also to have our meetings
01:51:59 and and also to have our meetings about i'm very happy to continue to read this these this leaf it is itself evidence and if you'd like to highlight a little bit more of this particular
01:52:10 a little bit more of this particular document i'm very happy to do so mister we can see just as you were saying on that screen um just after the line that i'd finished reading it was inviting a number of asterisk points if you can see right right there as you were saying phone your local
01:52:24 your local radio station and demand answers to the questions above write to your local papers arrange a street meeting uh get copies of the petition and the collection sheet and distribute them widely
01:52:37 sheet and distribute them widely um i can't i can't work out the next um word but there's a reference to the um
01:52:44 um writing too and the address for the fund gets copies of the fact sheet
01:52:54 sheet uh sponsored by east london uh teachers association and something to them to further your arguments from
01:53:06 them to further your arguments from and there's an address right to your mp demanding his or her support for a public inquiry i'm very happy to carry on to the next page to
01:53:15 page to finish that list of actions um if we can do that
01:53:26 on the screen it's just the next page of four more asterisks points thank you very much arrange pickets of suitable places in london there have already been pickets of scotland yard
01:53:37 already been pickets of scotland yard the home office and the coroner's court and elsewhere in the country of local police stations get a speaker from the anti-nazi league or friends of blair peach by contacting the information is given duplicate this sheet and spread the campaign
01:53:49 sheet and spread the campaign and get a stall at any trade union functions or community functions in your area to get the petition signed and collect money etc so it's a real mobilization
01:54:01 etc so it's a real mobilization of the feeling of grievance that we are seeing in these reports that are being sent by sds officers back to special branch is that right miss dubs
01:54:09 dubs yes we can also um you know absolutely sort of uh before social media and smartphones just the sort of things you did in
01:54:25 just the sort of things you did in in the 70s and but nothing violent there's no suggestion of violence can i um deal with two more reports in that were all dated in 1979
01:54:37 that were all dated in 1979 um just to help us understand
01:54:48 um just to help us understand how uh the activities were taking place tab 10 for your bundle sir and i think possibly yours um stubs but the reference is ucpi five zeros two one zero four four
01:55:12 this is a report on the screen that we can see
01:55:23 dated the 16th of july 1979 about a meeting that had taken place on the 5th of july
01:55:31 and it's it's a socialist workers party meeting
01:55:35 meeting and this happens to be the leighton stone
01:55:35 stone um so wolfram forest district of the socialist workers party that was holding this meeting the meeting was entitled as we can see in paragraph
01:55:55 in paragraph two of this report as follows police are the murderers disband special patrol group and some 25 people had attended at paragraph four if we can scroll down this report please
01:56:11 i'll read from paragraph four privacy the only one of the invited speakers to attend then delivered his talk he maintained that the role of the police in any capitalist society was to protect the system at all costs and police in the armed forces
01:56:24 and police in the armed forces although both of working-class origin must therefore be considered to be the repressive arm of the state in his view the dissolution of the spg was just a small step on the road to a socialist revolution
01:56:38 socialist revolution but even so its disbandment had to be aimed for
01:56:41 aimed for in the light in the light of the present public attitu public attitude towards the police following the death of blair peach the remainder of the speech was then adopted the usual line of um
01:56:58 then adopted the usual line of um just society will of a just society will only be achieved through socialism and this is what we must all work for so um we're about to come on to um the spg but this um
01:57:14 the spg but this um was this again is this an indication of the strength of feeling and um an indication of the national campaign that had been uh triggered to disband the special
01:57:27 the special patrol group after the events the 23rd of april
01:57:29 of april yes yes it was
01:57:42 yes yes it was i just wanted to check if there was a reference in this report but i think it's in the next report um that we see a picket that had been um arranged for the eve of the inquest
01:57:54 um arranged for the eve of the inquest and so let's just go to that please tab 11
01:57:55 11 and that's report ucpi five zeros one three four six eight please
01:58:20 ah now i have a different reference here but perhaps
01:58:35 please may i ask in fact for a different report to come up and i apologize for giving the wrong reference um and i don't quite know how i've achieved that in my um tabbing do you apologize can i ask for this report to come
01:58:50 for this report to come up on screen ucpi five zeros one three four three five
01:59:01 i have that behind my tab 11 sir and you may as well miss stubs but it's a report dated the 1st of october 1979.
01:59:16 and if we can um it's a report about the socialist workers party again and if we can just scroll to paragraph five please
01:59:31 on the 10th of october 19 reading from paragraph five on the 10th of october 1979 the eve of the blair peach inquest a picket will be held outside holston police station from 7 30 p.m until 9
01:59:46 police station from 7 30 p.m until 9 30 pm and kilburn police station from 10 p.m until 12 min midnight pickets will coincide with door-to-door leafleting in the area to complain about the proposed introduction of a special patrol group contingent into the brent
02:00:03 group contingent into the brent area so this um was an example and it may well be that the report that the number of which i gave just a minute ago was another example of the fact that many pickets had been arranged
02:00:12 arranged for the eve of the um inquest that was set up to start at the coroner's court is that right
02:00:26 coroner's court is that right yes it was it was the first inquest yes and there were over a hundred police stations i think i said 50. there were over 100 police stations uh picketed
02:00:36 picketed outside it was just a reminder and uh just for people are still so angry about it to able to express themselves
02:00:50 about it to able to express themselves and this so this was six months on and if i if i may just pause there and and see if if we if i have the chronology right about about the inquests and the various reports
02:01:00 reports um blair peach had died on the 23rd of april
02:01:01 april 1979. do i understand that there was um the inquest was technically opened in the sort of pro forma way that it has to be on the 26th of april 1979.
02:01:16 on the 26th of april 1979. yes that's when they just open and close don't they just yes
02:01:22 why i called it the first inquest oh you must know because because the coroner refused to sit with a jury
02:01:32 a jury or to allow the cass report that's why we had to go for the judicial review can stop if if i may just try and try and elicit a chronology and
02:01:43 and try and elicit a chronology and please correct me like if i do have this wrong and add the extra detail and then it may be the convenient moment to go for a break if we if we just get this um chronology right if i can
02:01:50 if i can so the technical opening happened on the 26th of
02:01:51 26th of april 1979. do we understand that there was then an internal investigation by commander john cass that um
02:02:05 by commander john cass that um had been triggered as a result of the usual
02:02:08 usual the the complaint investigation bureau that reported well the first of his reports was dated the 12th of july 1979. yes
02:02:18 1979. yes and then was it the case that the uh the inquest formally opened in october uh 1979 as we saw reference there
02:02:25 there on the presumably then the uh the 11th of october if the 10th was the eve and did that
02:02:36 did that uh inquest shared by john burton the coroner
02:02:42 coroner was that um that did that inquest run from october 1979 to may 1980 when it eventually no
02:02:53 to may 1980 when it eventually no it was stopped the first day but cass uh submitted a second report in september and the dpp in september who was um but i know his name so well it's gone out of my head the dpp
02:03:05 out of my head the dpp uh declared um that there was no case to answer and no policeman would be charged and this having read the cast report which we weren't allowed where it actually said that a policeman had killed blair
02:03:22 that a policeman had killed blair and i will go into that a bit more but no it had to be adjourned because we applied to go to the high court so it began in october 1979 there was then a pause and as you say there was
02:03:29 there was uh there were two um aspects of the cass report that had taken place before the start of that inquest
02:03:43 the start of that inquest that's right first reported 12th of july 79 and then there was the 14th of september 79 additional update of the of the castle the report yes then the inquest opened in october 79
02:03:55 79 yeah on the 11th on the 11th it was then paused
02:03:56 paused from from what you tell us and then ultimately did it start again in april 1980 and conclude in may 1980
02:04:08 1980 and conclude in may 1980 yes i think it was the 29th or 28th of april it started and concluded in may um yes some weeks later may 1980 and um there was a a verdict recorded
02:04:22 um there was a a verdict recorded where a jury were involved of death by misadventure um we're gonna come on to that yes yes
02:04:33 um we're gonna come on to that yes yes but as i understand and what i wanted to make clear i'm just trying to get the dates so that we can understand the currency
02:04:37 currency um you have in your statement in very clear
02:04:38 clear terms set out um using extracts from the cast report the basis of why you are severely critical of the coroner's approach to that
02:04:50 of the coroner's approach to that inquest his assessment of the evidence and the verdict reached aren't you yes and it wasn't until the 27th of april 2010 that you received disclosure of that cast report
02:05:02 cast report which sets out a view of the evidence commander john uh he was commander john cass wasn't he police force yeah that commander john casa's view of the evidence regarding um the spg
02:05:20 of the evidence regarding um the spg officers was in your view very much at odds
02:05:23 odds with the coroner's view that was expressed
02:05:26 expressed during the course of the 1980 concluded inquest um if i may that might be a convenient moment for a break and then we're going to look at one of the exhibits that you have provided for us um
02:05:39 provided for us um i just mentioned something as you're going in chronological order as i forgot in and why maybe there was such high feeling about the special troll group at the beginning of june
02:05:51 troll group at the beginning of june in it station in special patrol group lockers a whole lot of unauthorized weapons were found and also at um one of them one of their
02:06:02 and also at um one of them one of their homes that was pc bint where they found nazi regalia and also unauthorized weapons was that part of the investigation that commander cass was
02:06:11 was leading yes and that was leaked to us yes and um my solicitor went and saw the weapons
02:06:23 weapons and that's that so that was all part of his investigation and he gathered evidence
02:06:24 evidence and heard from the officers or heard or didn't depending on who chose to to give him evidence yes that was all part of his inter his investigation yes it was
02:06:37 investigation yes it was by being done yes and i mean one of the weapons was a was a long cost with a metal piece of metal at one end i think you've given us a lot of
02:06:49 given us a lot of you've helped us um with that yeah in your statement yes but that was the that was the i think that added to the anger that people
02:07:01 anger that people felt about the special patrol group when you say that was leaked did people know about that discovery then at the time in 1980 yes it was june 79
02:07:16 yes it was june 79 that it was lit that it happened and my solicitor went to view the weapons it was yes just before cass um the first part of his report was finished
02:07:25 finished so that was widely known what had been discovered in that yes absolutely yes it was in national newspapers yeah thank you ms dobbs if that's a convenient moment sir
02:07:38 convenient moment sir for the for the break certainly and we'll have a break but may i ask um by what time approximately assuming you restart very shortly after 12 you anticipate positioning well um so i have um
02:07:55 the probably within about um 20 minutes or so i would say okay and we'll break for our usual quarter of an hour to let shorthand writers have a break
02:08:03 break thank you sir
02:08:11 good morning everyone we will now take a break may remind those in the virtual hearing room to join their breakout rooms please the time is now 11 50 a.m so we shall reconvene at 1205 pm thank you
02:24:35 good afternoon everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you
02:24:48 thank you sir mr stubbs um we had uh just concluded the chronology of the um investigation and inquest dates and um
02:25:01 and inquest dates and um as i said that was in the context of a national campaign that had really uh captured quite a lot of
02:25:06 of attention in the year 1979 towards into 1980 all about disbanding the special patrol group um that
02:25:23 um that 19 that that national nationwide campaign um we get a flavor of in the uh and the basis for it we get a flavor of in one of the exhibits that you provided
02:25:38 exhibits that you provided um for the inquiries assistance which we can pull up on screen and is a i think a book or a a large i think an article or book or magazine type a document
02:25:52 magazine type a document titled the blair peach case license to kill
02:25:56 kill which was written by david ransom who was
02:25:58 was part of the friends of the blair peach committee is that right yes and he was a teacher at the same school as blair yes it's a booklet yes it's a booklet thank you that's the word i was looking for um you see
02:26:14 word i was looking for um you see we have this on our screens at ucpi five zeroes three four zero seven seven and if we can turn to page 12 of that
02:26:35 and if we can turn to page 12 of that please for the technician's assistance thank you if we look further down halfway down the page we can see that this part of the booklet is focusing on the special patrol group
02:26:48 the special patrol group and if we start at the paragraph that begins most of the attention
02:27:04 i'll read these two paragraphs here most of the attention since has focused on the spg which was involved in all the worst violence in south hall the overall strategy of the police has been somewhat obscured
02:27:16 been somewhat obscured however it is clear that small as their numbers were the spg played a vital role in this overall strategy and without them such a strategy would probably never have been contemplated just pausing there ms dubs this
02:27:30 just pausing there ms dubs this is referring to the general policing that was deployed on the 23rd of april isn't it
02:27:44 yes is that um white law again because i'm very horrified at that first paragraph i'd forgotten about that yes now what what the very top the little paragraph at the top yes where he said that more or less he deserved to be killed didn't he
02:27:58 deserved to be killed didn't he yes this is um a booklet written as we identified from um from a member of the uh friends of blair peach committee he is there setting out um
02:28:14 he is there setting out um what he is now referring to here in this paragraph about which is i think the police strategy and of course
02:28:18 of course we must try and remember that the the chairman in the inquiry here is focused on the undercover policing aspect of policing and obviously
02:28:31 aspect of policing and obviously it's right to say that commander cass and indeed the coroner were focused on different things um
02:28:43 were focused on different things um but what this helps us with a little bit is the role that the spg played as part of the overall policing which would would have included undercover policing um on the day and what the response
02:29:00 um on the day and what the response was decided to be by the by the police on the 23rd of april and that's what this book is focusing on from his perspective but but there was one undercover policeman there if we are to believe that we've got all the statements
02:29:12 the statements and he was there for a couple of hours yes thank you and that was um that gives me an opportunity to uh remind ourselves that that you're referring to
02:29:25 referring to the closed officer gist if you remember that collection of all the closed officers witness statements for transgender phase two and that was collated down into a document that's
02:29:40 collated down into a document that's been published and it's from that that you get the information about the officer that was present is that right yes but it's it's in the singular
02:29:49 singular singular not the plural yes yes you're saying there's more there's a whole bunch of officers saying that no we're saying that there is um that gist
02:29:54 gist was created as i understand it by uh summarizing the important aspects that could be published from a number of different offices witness statements
02:30:10 different offices witness statements and one of those officers whose identity it's right to say you do not know and you do not know their cover name but one of those officers was able to contribute in the way that they did in their statement and that's been put into open
02:30:21 open in the gist which confirms that he was present
02:30:25 present or he or she was present at um on the 23rd of april as you said for a period and then as you've referred to left but are you actually telling me there were more undercover officers at southall
02:30:39 southall i am referring to the fact that this information came from a gist of a collation
02:30:45 collation oh it is a bunch of them at southall i have no doubt that if there was evidence that needed to be just to the plural it would have been gisted in that way okay so just the one yes that's why
02:30:56 okay so just the one yes that's why there wasn't really well maybe we'll come on to that because something i've i don't know if it's appropriate now to speak about it would it would would it be now now
02:31:09 would it would would it be now now convenient i think to just can we focus on the document that you've exhibited for our assistance yes yes this david's book yes if that's all right
02:31:14 all right okay um so what we were and it's my fault because i distracted to to talk about the fact that this was part of an overall policing strategy
02:31:25 of an overall policing strategy and this particular paragraph is focusing on the spg as part of that overall policing strategy
02:31:39 um the second paragraph uh that i will read from which is the
02:31:43 is the penultimate on this page is what david ransom
02:31:48 ransom um refers to him having found in the observer
02:31:49 observer on the 29th of april published he says here scotland yard's own account of the spg it was the only specialist unit in the metropolitan police force
02:32:05 metropolitan police force vacancies were generally oversubscribed so that something like 50 percent of applicants failed on vetting there was a 25 annual turnover and a full tour
02:32:14 full tour lasted three years a scotland yard spokesman emphasized that the spg had no room in its ranks for the headstrong type or those who are liable to overreact
02:32:22 overreact to any difficult situation and if we can move something's wrong there isn't it because they are supposed to only be there three y
02:32:33 there three y three years but the the driver of carrier u11 had been there something like five or six years mr stubbs let me help you because i'm
02:32:44 mr stubbs let me help you because i'm about to move to that next part in this um in this booklet to to uh highlight these particular features if we can move to page 14 of this unique reference please
02:33:01 in the paragraph that begins most seriously of all which is just at the bottom of this page thank you most seriously of all however the inquest revealed
02:33:13 the inquest revealed that the purportedly rigorous controls over the spg in reality had never existed at all at least seven of the spg officers who gave evidence to the inquest
02:33:24 evidence to the inquest have been there for more than four years one for eight years and two virtually since the spg was founded in 1965. one of these two was pc chalky white the magpie of unit 1
02:33:38 magpie of unit 1 and the driver of uniform 1-1 in south hall
02:33:39 hall on the 23rd of april 1979 and he'd been a member of one of the four spg units dispatched
02:33:51 four spg units dispatched um to anguilla in 1969 at a different i certainly got the number wrong didn't i he'd been there 14 years um if i may then move to the final extract of this booklet that i'd like to highlight which is on the next
02:34:05 like to highlight which is on the next page say page 15 and it'll be the last paragraph beginning the sunday times
02:34:20 and again this is david ransom's um uh account of what he'd read um he tells uh that he publishes in this booklet in the sunday times of the 1st of june 1980.
02:34:31 1980. he refers here to an interview that had been published he says published in in the sunday times on the 1st of june 1980 published an interview with inspector alan murray following his resignation from the
02:34:47 following his resignation from the police presumably murray intended this interview as a vindication of himself and of the spg it is all the more disquieting for that he recounts how on the afternoon of the 23rd of april 1979
02:34:59 23rd of april 1979 he had addressed unit 1 about how the quotes loony left unquote were going to be present in la southall and how it promised to be a quotes
02:35:10 quotes tasty one in quotes he describes the quotes which as i which i understand to me
02:35:18 me enthusiasm that had been built up in his unit and how they had the habit of arriving on duty to the tune of the downbusters
02:35:31 duty to the tune of the downbusters the unit was proud to be known as quotes the cowboys end quotes another quote when i was out with my unit
02:35:43 with my unit i was my own boss to a large extent end quotes submarine quotes before acting
02:35:47 acting i didn't have can we move to the next page
02:35:51 page thank you to ring up and say governor do you think this is right i followed my own experience to do what was expected
02:36:03 for my own part my stubs i don't need to read any more because that gives a flavor of the of the perceived um behavior and indeed the account on the face of it given um
02:36:17 given um publicly uh by a former member of the spg
02:36:23 spg who was present on the 23rd of april is that right miss dubs yes
02:36:36 ultimately as we know from the cast report that was disclosed to you in 2010 and as we summarized in the inquiries opening um it's right to say and the conclusion
02:36:50 it's right to say and the conclusion there was that the lethal blow referring to the death of your partner was almost certainly struck by a member of the mps's spg that right
02:37:05 miss dubs i'd like now to move on if we can take that down please
02:37:13 to um and of anniversary events that took place after the um the events on the 23rd of april
02:37:24 the events on the 23rd of april now you explain in your statement that you have always found these to be difficult events no doubt quite understandably but do you also agree that they demonstrate
02:37:35 demonstrate the strength of feeling and the continued um place in the public's mind that the events
02:37:41 events of the 23rd of april have held
02:37:53 yes absolutely are you talking about um you're jumping way ahead to 1998 are you well no i'm talking about ambassador events that started as quickly as the following year in 1980 in 1981 and and that's what it said
02:38:05 in 1981 and and that's what it said you found it particularly hard that was something i said in 1998 yes yes yes forgive me you're right
02:38:17 yes forgive me you're right 1981 yeah no doubt that it becomes increasingly difficult um as well as it must have been at the time as well
02:38:31 time as well um so if we were to look now at tab 27 in your bundle and that of the chairman
02:38:35 chairman and we will see this report on our screen
02:38:35 screen at ucpi five zeros two zero zero nine four
02:38:52 i wasn't here was i no no i don't think you were yet no no yeah um what i'm trying to identify or rather highlight um
02:39:00 um here is that yeah yeah it's not the case it was the case wasn't it
02:39:07 it that these events have triggered um it have not gone away and the p and the public's recollection of these events has not gone away
02:39:21 events has not gone away and the strength of feeling about what happened that day has not gone away no yeah sure and these are anniversary events that took place
02:39:36 anniversary events that took place and that we certainly see in 1980 and 81 undercover police officers felt it's important to report back to special branch yeah yes and
02:39:44 yes and if we therefore look at this report which is dated the 18th of april 1980 we can see at paragraph three
02:40:02 we can see at paragraph three little one uh this being a meeting to do with the socialist workers party that on the 23rd of april 1980 from 6 pm until 8 pm outside holston police station
02:40:13 police station there's it was being announced that there was to be a mass picket will be held to commemorate the death of blair peach
02:40:24 blair peach organised by the north west london swp this will be attended by about 40 persons a similar picket will be held outside
02:40:31 outside kilburn police station this will be attended by about 30 persons from 5 p.m until 7 p.m on the same day
02:40:39 same day organized by the kilbernanty nazi league yes
02:40:40 yes also a picket on the same evening to take place outside barnet police station organised by finchley swp and this will be attended by about 20 persons
02:41:01 and we can um see that those police stations were not alone if we just have a look at one more report at this time behind tab 28 this is report ucpi5013891
02:41:19 this is report ucpi5013891 where we can see if we see the list of um police stations in their entirety
02:41:32 uh this report shows us that it was known that the following police stations
02:41:35 stations in the metropolitan police district will be picketed by members of the swp who are protesting about the death of blair peach and calling for the disbandment of the special patrol group so and this was um
02:41:50 so and this was um this was 16 police stations if we just look down
02:41:53 look down the full list that we're going to have um
02:41:58 um for a number of hours that evening pickets outside them
02:42:04 and this was this was a year on from the events
02:42:05 events and this was the level of activity and the strength of feeling that was being shown
02:42:10 shown is that right yes it is um can we see a year on after that for the second anniversary if we move to tab 37
02:42:26 if we move to tab 37 um report number ucpi five zeros one six four three four
02:42:47 again just an example of um a different campaign this is the right to work campaign and this is just an indication of the fact that
02:43:00 of the fact that here is is their plan in february for an event that was going to take place a couple of months later so we see this report back from the sds to special branch has attached a leaflet outlining the
02:43:12 has attached a leaflet outlining the future events planned by the south east london
02:43:14 london right to work campaign including a picket of eltham police station on thursday the 23rd of april 1981 the second anniversary of the death of blair peach
02:43:25 blair peach yes
02:43:38 tab 47 please um from in your bundle uh do i mean
02:43:51 yes yes i do um this is on the screen mps zero zero zero one two one nine
02:44:08 and here we are going into we're obviously jumping a number of years now mustaf's because we're looking at the 20th anniversary so this is a report as we can see dated in 1998. and
02:44:20 dated in 1998. and um i just wanted to what i'm here trying to highlight is the fact that this the events that took place in 1979 us are have remained a feature um in people's minds
02:44:34 a feature um in people's minds that has uh mobilized a continuing strong feeling about the events that day and and
02:44:43 and and the tragic situation that befell your partner
02:44:46 partner and hear um what we're looking at and it's unusual um must dubs this type of report demonstrates a very a large shift in the style of of the reporting
02:44:57 the reporting um because we see here uh
02:45:08 um because we see here uh the type a title and an intelligence subject on the page we see touchy subject
02:45:12 subject which is itself a code name of the reporting officer which i think information has reached you ms stubbs that that's what that means it doesn't mean that the content that's being discussed is itself a touchy subject
02:45:28 is itself a touchy subject this was at a meeting at the colin roach center
02:45:31 center and the underclover officer was mark cassidy
02:45:34 cassidy who'd infiltrated our group and was there for five years and um had a relationship with a woman there which caused her terrible distress when she found out who he was
02:45:48 he was that's correct um i think the last there's about six um different um files on where he's spied on us with in great detail um he seems to be um
02:46:04 um he seems to be um not particularly truthful it wasn't that i
02:46:07 i i i always found it quite quite difficult
02:46:08 difficult to at anniversaries and to keep on you know having anniversaries although i was
02:46:16 was still felt really honored that so many people still remembered there and wanted um to remember him but also the last paragraph there suddenly
02:46:30 the last paragraph there suddenly said potential for disorder i mean we'd had
02:46:31 had we'd had remembrance demonstrations after five years after 10 years and this was 20 years had never been any
02:46:43 been any any disorder i don't know why he put that i think it's pretty unpleasant suddenly he's putting something which no one has as no one's made that statement about um
02:46:58 statement about um our what what we did the friends of blair peach and continuing on um i just read the content into the record so that those that are following on um
02:47:10 that aren't able to look at the screen can follow the yes text in the transcript and this is a report date of the 28th of july 1998 and uh it says that april 1999 represents the
02:47:25 it says that april 1999 represents the 20th anniversary of the death of blair peach in south hall during an anti-nazi demonstration to help commemorate this event local trade unions are organizing a large rally and demonstration
02:47:36 large rally and demonstration which will be presented with a strong anti-racist anti-police flavour the temporary organizing committee have approached celia stubbs peach's ex-girlfriend to help promote the event which she has reluctantly agreed to do
02:47:49 agreed to do and there's a comment from the source who we know to be touchy subject and as you've identified that's the code name for the officer you've referred to the event will inevitably attract a left-wing
02:48:00 left-wing presence with particular accent on anti-police type groups and the potential for disorder will be significant and you've explained your views about this report and your reference there to
02:48:15 your reference there to reluctance on your part and you've explained
02:48:16 explained what that meant um as may i um in just keep keeping in terms of the fact that this continues to be
02:48:31 that this continues to be um remembered then deal with the fact that
02:48:31 that the 40th anniversary uh commemorated blair peach in a slightly different way or as well as marches and demonstrations and is it
02:48:46 marches and demonstrations and is it right and you help us with your in your statement at paragraph 23 to say that um in fact the uh the system of blue plaques the um i think now run by english heritage
02:48:57 heritage uh on the 40th anniversary of his death placed on the outside wall of south hall town hall a blue plaque and that scheme is designed to honor
02:49:14 and that scheme is designed to honor notable men and women and that is uh how that was
02:49:18 that was his the events of the 23rd of april were remembered on the 40th anniversary in 2019 is that right
02:49:28 right yes and also a plaque for goddamn chagar the young man who was murdered by white racists in 1976.
02:49:34 1976. thank you might i now um deal with um just to cover the reports that you have in your pack um for this trash um
02:49:47 um for this trash um and put them into a little bit of context about other work that you and the friends of blair peach committee were involved in to support other justice campaigns
02:50:04 justice campaigns can we just look now at three reports first behind tab 34 and that's ucpi four one four
02:50:25 nine sorry i said i didn't say the five zeros forgive me ucpi five zeroes one four one four nine i
02:50:34 apologize
02:50:42 um this is a a report about the friends of blair peach um in july 1980 and i'll just read from paragraph two the friends of blair peach committee are at present attempting to form a national coordinating body
02:50:54 national coordinating body with other such committees concerned with the cases of state brutality by the police
02:51:02 police and prison authorities so we can see um there the efforts and uh coordination of this particular committee with other groups
02:51:15 groups we can reading on it says committee's concern would include the richard cartoon campbell campaign and the jimmy kelly campaign they feel that the move would widen the political arguments behind the alleged brutality
02:51:28 brutality and increase publicity for any new incidents that might occur
02:51:40 so um and if we look at the next two reports as well can we see just say something about that yes that all right yes this was a meeting
02:51:50 that's right with jimmy kelly campaign and richard campbell i think they were quite at that stage there were four other campaigns that we got to know all pursuing miscarriages of justice
02:52:05 all pursuing miscarriages of justice and we felt if we pulled our resources and knowledge we could support each other the jimmy kelly campaign um which which uh this was the first time it came to the
02:52:16 to the notice of undercover officers that was um jimmy kelly was coming home from the pub where he'd been
02:52:27 from the pub where he'd been having a drink with his brother who was on holiday from australia and he was attacked and beaten up by police officers who took him to a police station in liverpool where he lived and he died in the police station
02:52:43 richard campbell was a a young black rest affair not only 19 years old
02:52:53 and and so you're you're you're the committee the friends of blair peach committee was aligning it sorry i i didn't i was just pausing and oh my fault that's all right he
02:53:06 that's all right he he
02:53:09 he was treated he was in
02:53:21 he was in um ashford prison which is now felt some young offenders um he was it he was on a uh uh charged with um i think it was
02:53:34 uh uh charged with um i think it was breaking a shock window which he denied he was in there he um he was fine at first
02:53:38 first he ended up being force-fed and he died on his own in illeshwood then there was um there was a little taz campaign
02:53:49 um there was a little taz campaign he was um a nightclub in newcastle he was beaten up by eight police officers and he died three weeks later um and the other the fifth campaign was
02:54:07 um and the other the fifth campaign was matthew o'hara who was a he was a member of the mental patients union in hackney and did a lot of work um he had mental health problems and um he was in he was taken to pentonville prison because he refused to pair fine
02:54:21 prison because he refused to pair fine he wasn't treated his diabetes and had to be taken to hospital he also said he found he was kicked in the stomach by a prison officer and he died in his flat uh three weeks later
02:54:34 later and really that was us getting together we felt
02:54:36 we felt there was so much we could share we could support each other we could um we could look at inquest reform um and the importance of having parliamentarians on our side support
02:54:48 parliamentarians on our side support each other at demonstrations at meetings and start sharing knowledge and we hoped in a year or two to be able to employ caseworkers who might be able to support the family at inquest
02:55:04 to support the family at inquest which um there was still that was campaigning for um inquest reform and the the ability to get legal aid
02:55:15 ability to get legal aid and that's that's don't understand why yes
02:55:18 yes why we were spied on and that's why you were um
02:55:19 were um that's the reference and and my i'm trying to highlight the the work of your the committee in your work
02:55:31 your the committee in your work um that features in these reports and your alignment with other justice campaigns
02:55:33 campaigns and you've just given us some um obviously very difficult um for you to express uh you felt very keenly about these other justice campaigns that you were aligned with
02:55:46 with yes might i just um deal with one more um example um bringing us uh quite it up to
02:55:58 bringing us uh quite it up to much more up-to-date times um as perhaps the last of the reports to to deal with that's
02:55:59 that's mps 0 0 0
02:56:02 mps 0 0 0 1 7 0 7 please now this may not have found its way into your hard copy bundle so we may have to
02:56:13 your hard copy bundle so we may have to just deal with this on the screen stubs yes
02:56:22 and this is 1999 and this was that title a report titled public order implications following a publication of the lawrence inquiry report and other events and if i might scroll down a few paragraphs to a paragraph i i think it begins the monitoring group
02:56:42 thank you
02:56:47 and we can see here that's what's being reported back is um the monitoring group which is organizing the blur peach demonstration 20th anniversary of his death on the 24th of april 99
02:57:01 his death on the 24th of april 99 will be viewed as being synonymous with the lawrence death and will therefore unite all of the disparate groups under one banner suresh grover who is the organiser of this event will
02:57:14 the organiser of this event will positively contribute to ensuring that the day passes off without disorder however given the large numbers of groups and individuals who are likely to attend this march the potential for disorder is high and that's what
02:57:28 that's what the officer's view was that he recorded and wrote back uh in his report but is this
02:57:31 this um as far as your bundle for this tranche is concerned is this another example of um alignment of the same feelings that you were just expressing there
02:57:42 were just expressing there about justice campaigns and your support for them
02:57:43 for them and do i take it that your view remains the same that you don't consider this to be an appropriate um use of undercover policing
02:57:58 um use of undercover policing i certainly disagree with potential for disorder is high because i think as i said before that um uh remembrance marches and
02:58:10 uh remembrance marches and for blair ever had any disorder there was no disorder um and you know the groups and individuals
02:58:21 and you know the groups and individuals they still wanted to remember blair yes thank you
02:58:21 thank you can we take this down ms stubbs um thank you very much for uh going through the events as clearly and in the chronological way that we've tried to
02:58:32 that we've tried to take things through this morning i've finished the questions that i wanted to highlight as i say your clear statement and all the detail that you set out
02:58:43 and all the detail that you set out in there about matters that you feel very keenly about is before the chairman and before the public published on the website with your exhibits and all the detail
02:58:56 exhibits and all the detail for people to to to know about and and consider in detail so that would conclude the questions that i have today um i don't know if this is the convenient moment for a break to see if there's any other
02:59:08 there's any other uh further matters that need to be added could i say could i say something before is that appropriate for them
02:59:26 thank you very much
02:59:42 sorry um um
02:59:49 um um the the um the police the metropolitan police annual report in took into south hall um they said that it was the most significant event
03:00:01 significant event of that year southall and less death
03:00:09 yet there isn't uh a single report except for that gist that was mentioned that i mentioned earlier
03:00:21 mentioned earlier there's um and no one admitting any knowledge of the events i think the same was in redland square where kevin gately was killed i believe there was hn 301 was there
03:00:36 i believe there was hn 301 was there but um there's no his evidence wasn't given to
03:00:41 given to and there was nothing written about that the contrast between these two and what happened at lewisham in 1977 is so glaring and that's why i wanted to mention it
03:00:55 mention it there were 18 undercover officers at lewisham
03:00:56 lewisham and over 50 pages of reports and yet no one was dead no one was killed
03:01:06 killed it but in the other two demonstrations somebody was killed at each of the demonstrations and it makes me think that
03:01:21 the police didn't want to be associated with
03:01:22 with deaths they they didn't want to
03:01:31 they they they just didn't want to be close to it they didn't want anything to do with it so and that's what makes me feel that that we haven't i can't believe that we've
03:01:40 we've there aren't statements because of what what because of lewisham it just doesn't make sense it feels like yet another cover-up and another boulder and another
03:02:02 you know once again not feeling that you're being heard also uh
03:02:06 also uh i just wanted to mention that um
03:02:16 about hn126 um you know i was told that um his rep statement was pertinent to my being spied upon in fact there's absolutely nothing in his statement that um that involves me
03:02:32 that um that involves me except when on the 12th of june 1979 he said he went with um the swp members of the branch he was
03:02:43 the swp members of the branch he was he'd infiltrated to view blair laden state
03:02:46 state at the dominion cinema in southall he said he only went because um it would have looked bad for him if he hadn't and might come have disturbed his undercover but he then immediately
03:03:01 then immediately after that said in his statement i never had anything to do with the family or friends of blair peach and that seemed to me that why did he make that remark it seems as though he quickly wanted
03:03:13 quickly wanted her to distance himself from that there must
03:03:17 must there must be something you know why why was i told that his his statement was pertinent to my being spied on it caused me awful anxiety actually
03:03:31 although it was totally evasive when i read it
03:03:32 read it um core participants are they're fighting injustice in a climate where we're vilified by by authority and we've been targeted we don't know why we've been
03:03:47 don't know why we've been targeted i just hope this inquiry um you know will protect core participants and that you know
03:03:54 know when when you come to write your report um this will be foremost in your mind i
03:04:07 um this will be foremost in your mind i mean blair was killed by police officers and our feelings and campaigns was was we were criminalized and the police i think wanted to keep ahead
03:04:16 ahead one step wanted to keep ahead of our campaign
03:04:17 campaign um so that um they're blessed killers um we were never able to
03:04:25 able to hold them to account i've i and i'm sure many other court participants well i know the ones i've listened to will feel really violated as i do
03:04:48 i think that's all i want to say thank you would you um be bear with me please and wait for 15 minutes well there may be questions that miss wilkinson is going to be asked to ask you uh and um
03:04:59 ask you uh and um perhaps um mr ryder will have questions of you as well and we'll come back in 15 minutes to deal with those thank you that's fine thank you
03:05:12 good afternoon everyone we will now take a break now reminders in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please the time is 12 45 pm so we shall reconvene at 1pm thank you
03:19:32 good afternoon everyone and welcome back i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you ms wilkinson i understand there are no questions asked what you're going to be asked to ask ms dubs
03:19:46 dubs at this stage that's correct thank you sir mr ryder do you have any re-examination no thank you sir mr stubbs thank you for taking the time and trouble to prepare your witness statement and
03:19:58 statement and to attend to give the oral evidence which you've given to me about events that began 42 years ago very grateful to you thank you
03:20:12 today's proceedings are now closed
03:20:23 thank you everyone the hearings have now finished for the day we shall resume at 10 am tomorrow
03:21:32 you