Dan Gilman, a trade union activist and teacher, gives extensive testimony about being blacklisted and spied upon by undercover police officers including Carlos Saraki (HN104). He describes how police reporting led to his placement on construction industry blacklists despite not being a builder, the impact on his employment prospects, and systematic misrepresentation of anti-fascist defensive actions as violent criminality. Gilman provides detailed rebuttals to undercover police reports, describing attempts by officers to entrap him into criminal activity.
00:26:12 Good afternoon, everybody. This afternoon's proceedings are being uh transmitted after a 10-minute delay. Those with electronic devices uh may use
00:26:26 Those with electronic devices uh may use them to report what they've heard in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reported. Uh they may not be used for recording or photography. May the witness be sworn, please.
00:26:43 Yep. I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth
00:26:54 shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing and nothing but truth. Yeah, thank Please. Okay. Yes.
00:27:05 Yes. Thank you, sir. And Mr. Gilman, thank you for coming to give evidence today. Um, if you need a break at any time, please do just say so. We will plan to break somewhere in the middle of the afternoon. In any event, um,
00:27:17 afternoon. In any event, um, uh, you made a witness statement to this inquiry, sir. It's at UCPI 37751 tab A1 of your bundle, Mr. Gilman. was on the 4th of April, 2025.
00:27:32 on the 4th of April, 2025. Um, you've signed it um on the last page.
00:27:34 page. Can you confirm please that that statement is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yep, please. Thank you. Um, that um the whole of that statement, Mr. Gilman, goes into
00:27:47 statement, Mr. Gilman, goes into evidence. I'm going to ask you some questions this afternoon, as you know. Um, but I'm not going to ask you um questions on everything within it as it does stand as your evidence. Um, I'd
00:27:58 does stand as your evidence. Um, I'd like to start with uh your involvement in the trade union movement um between
00:28:10 in the trade union movement um between 1993 and 2008. You say at uh paragraph 1.1 of your witness statement that you've been an active trade union member since starting work in 1993.
00:28:20 in 1993. You were a member of the manufacturing science and finance trade union from June 93 to December 93. You were a member of the ACTS one stroke 11 at the transport and general workers union uh now referred to asite from December 93
00:28:33 now referred to asite from December 93 to June 2003. You were a member of the National Union of Teachers uh from June 2003 to date and you were a member of
00:28:44 2003 to date and you were a member of the builders joint sites committee the JSC from 1993 to 1999. Is that right? Yeah. The JSC was trade unionists rather than a trade union. But yeah,
00:28:56 than a trade union. But yeah, thank you. At paragraph 1.2 two of your statement, you say that you believe you were on a blacklist um very early on in your career because you were dismissed
00:29:11 your career because you were dismissed from a carpet cleaning company that had the contract for checkers in 1987 when you were only 15 years old. And you believe that was because of your activism with the campaign for nuclear disarmament and the anti-apartite movement. Is that right?
00:29:23 movement. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, I don't believe it. That's that's what someone on the phone said to my employer. They said, "You've got Dan Gimman working for you. You've got the contract for cleaning checkers carpets. You'll lose that contract unless you sack Dan Gilman. He's in Antiparta movement and CND.
00:29:35 movement and CND. I got well with a boss, but in the end he said, "Listen, I can't lose a contract." So, he sacked me. Thank you. At paragraph 1.5, you say that you also know that you were on the consulting association's construction
00:29:47 consulting association's construction industry back blacklist from about 1999. And that's although you were not a builder, you were a merely supporter of the builder joint sites committee. But you know that you were on that blacklist. How did you come to find that out?
00:30:01 out? Dave Smith, who should be here instead of me, Dave Smith, I think, found out first about the builder's blacklist. He is um you know, he is a trade unis. He's a builder. Um and he found out about builders list builders blacklist. And
00:30:13 builders list builders blacklist. And the first thing he did was look through the blacklist and spot all these activists and friends are on the blacklist. And your name was on it. And my name was on it even though I'm not a builder. Yeah. Um, you say in your witness statement that you believe that it was Mark Jenner's reporting that led
00:30:29 it was Mark Jenner's reporting that led to you being included on that blacklist. Why why do you believe it was his reporting that led to you being on that list?
00:30:39 list? Because the blacklist um I'm sure you've seen I think my I think my bit is in my appendix here, isn't it? The blacklist is if a builder um complains about terms and conditions of health and safety uh they get put on the blacklist. But I
00:30:50 they get put on the blacklist. But I didn't. I wasn't a builder. My entry on the blacklist is about being on a demonstration. Um, and it's from 1999. So demonstration, there's a special demonstration squad. It's 1999. I put
00:31:02 demonstration squad. It's 1999. I put two and two together. Someone like Mark Janna. Now it might not have been Mark Janna, but it's a demonstration that put me on a blacklist. And so someone in the
00:31:14 me on a blacklist. And so someone in the Metropolitan Police, it could be special branch, it could be in ordinary copper, it could be Mark Janna, they put information into this pool of information that then got sold to the private company and put us on a blacklist. Thank you. At paragraph 8.8
00:31:25 blacklist. Thank you. At paragraph 8.8 of your statement, you refer to thinking that the illegal dissemination of these files to blacklisting companies and employers by the special branch has had and continues to have an impact on your employment and the wages that you can provide for your family. Could you
00:31:41 provide for your family. Could you expand a little bit on that please? What type of impact do you think it has had in the past and continues to have on you? Yeah, it's tricky because when they when they went into the consulting association office, the the warrant they had was just for the builder's
00:31:55 had was just for the builder's blacklist. So, they walked in the office and there was all these filing cabinets for all different industries and the only one they could go to was the builder's blacklist. So, the only evidence is is the builder's one, but there was filing cabinets for everything else. You know, how many cabinets I was in, I just don't know. But I'm a teacher. Um I'm a good teacher. You
00:32:09 teacher. Um I'm a good teacher. You know, whenever I have an offstead or an inspection from my boss, I'm a good teacher. Um, and yet I could not get and cannot get a job in my local authority. You know, I've applied for job after job after job and different stories come out and different tales come out about why
00:32:21 and different tales come out about why I've not got the job. Couldn't get it. The first time I pipe a job outside of my local authority, I got it first time. I've kept it ever since. I see. And you believe that's because you're on a blacklist in relation to that local?
00:32:33 that local? Yeah. Whether it's a formal one like the builder's one that's written down or whether it's just word of mouth from head teacher to head teacher, but um yeah, it's I I can get a job outside my burough. I couldn't in my bar. I put two and two together again.
00:32:53 and two together again. Yes. I see. At paragraph 1.7, you referred to uh Carlos Sarra's deployment and his reporting on the fact that you were active in the National Union of Teachers. Um even though trade unions were not supposed to be a factor in his deployment, presumably you object to
00:33:04 deployment, presumably you object to that reporting by him on you during that time.
00:33:10 time. Yeah, I mean I I think the whole SDS shouldn't happen full stop. But if if if you think it's got a remmit, which is public order, what has my membership of a trade union got to do with that? And time and time again, him and Peter and
00:33:21 time and time again, him and Peter and Mark keep referring to our trade union activity, what we did, um my details, trade union details often reported. It's got nothing to do with public order. Yes, thank you. Um I'd like to look at your involvement then in political and
00:33:34 your involvement then in political and social activism and the groups that you were um involved with to one extent or another. I'd like to start first please with militant tendency or militant labor which later came to be known as the
00:33:46 which later came to be known as the socialist party. At paragraph 2.1 of your statement you say you were an active member of militant tendency or militant labor or the socialist party
00:33:57 militant labor or the socialist party between June 1993 and September 2015. Is that right? Yes. Um I joined militant labor when it left Labor party because I didn't support entism. So when they left became a separate party that's when I joined it.
00:34:15 it. Thank you. Um you say that you served you served as a branch secretary, national committee member, youth organizer, chief steward and local election candidate uh for for that
00:34:26 election candidate uh for for that group. You say that the socialist party had several thousand members. Um can I ask you about the role of a steward and particularly a chief steward in this particular organization please? What was
00:34:40 particular organization please? What was the purpose of stewards in the socialist party or militant labor? I mean those who have been here all day have heard all this this morning from Lois but I mean it's the same point where if we are encouraging young
00:34:55 where if we are encouraging young people, working-class people, men and women to come out on demonstrations we have an obligation uh for their safeguarding. Same as I'm I'm a teacher. If I'm looking after kids, I need to make sure they're safe. If you call a demonstration, you need to make sure
00:35:07 demonstration, you need to make sure people are safe. And so the stewarding is all about making sure people are safe.
00:35:10 safe. And how how what what did that involve practically speaking? Well, I mean um because of our experience of what can happen on demonstrations, they can be attacked uh by the far right, by the police. We heard that this morning from Lois. Um
00:35:21 heard that this morning from Lois. Um you needed to have a wall of stewards around the demonstration to protect the demonstration. Um, you need to if you've got an agreed route for the demonstration, you need to do that agreed route. Particularly if you are
00:35:35 agreed route. Particularly if you are demonstrating against fascists, you need to make sure that the you're not going to bump into a bunch of fascists around the corner. You know, often in East London, you'd be demonstrating and then you'd be attacked by fascists who are hiding around the corner. So, it's about
00:35:46 hiding around the corner. So, it's about defending the demonstration, being aware of the the context they're demonstrating in. um if things do erupt into violence, make sure there's safety, make sure people are looked after, try and get
00:35:57 people are looked after, try and get some first day care. Um you have legal advisers too to make sure that things legally following. So it's that bigger picture of of safety and making sure that that demonstration can fulfill the purpose he wants to fulfill.
00:36:10 purpose he wants to fulfill. Thank you, Mr. Gilman. I'm just being asked if you could perhaps slow down ever so slightly. I told that all the time. I'm a kid at school. Yeah. You speak very quickly. It's not a criticism. It's just the stenographer has to keep up. very much.
00:36:21 has to keep up. very much. Um, thank you. We'd be very grateful. Um, I I want to ask you about um the Socialist Party away team. Um, we've heard some reference to an away team in Y this morning from Lois, but I I want
00:36:32 Y this morning from Lois, but I I want to specifically ask you about militant labor or socialist party away team. And I want to um look at a document MPS treble04158
00:36:47 treble04158 and that's at tab B17 of your bundles. Sir,
00:36:49 Sir, um in this report, um the away team is referred to and it says that Dan Gilman and Frank Smith,
00:37:00 says that Dan Gilman and Frank Smith, both members of the Socialist Party and founders of the relatively new anti-fascist group, No Platform, and I'll come to No Platform in a moment,
00:37:12 I'll come to No Platform in a moment, but took a group of 20 to 30 activists to Berlin for a demonstration against German neo-Nazis in the city. The protest took place over the weekend of
00:37:23 protest took place over the weekend of the 7th and 8th of October and the group comprised disaffected members of anti-fascist action AFA and the socialist party awaiting. Um source comment said Gilman views trips of this nature as good PR as it reflects that the group is serious and can muster numbers if required. So
00:37:40 can muster numbers if required. So there's mention there of a socialist party away team. Um, is that a phrase you recognize in relation to militant labor or the Socialist Party as opposed to Yre?
00:37:57 Socialist Party as opposed to Yre? No, the away team never existed formally as a group despite that comment this morning about this motion. There was no formal away team. Um,
00:38:19 is the away team simply another way of describing the group of stewards who's who you referred to a moment ago in relation to militant labor and the socialist party who would steward demonstrations? Yeah. So on a demonstration, the chief steward would have a plan for the demonstration and the chief steward would then get his body of stewards together for the demonstration. They'd say, "Okay, well, who is prepared to be
00:38:33 say, "Okay, well, who is prepared to be at the front, you know, t take the risk of being battered by a copper or assaulted by a by a fascist? Who is in a position to take that risk and who isn't?" If you could take that risk and you're prepared to be at the front and
00:38:46 you're prepared to be at the front and and face the obstacles of being at the front, then you would be in the away team as such. If you had responsibilities, obligations, so one demonstration I was there with two blind students and I had to make sure that
00:38:57 students and I had to make sure that these blind students got out safely. We didn't. We were attacked by the police still, but nevertheless, you you're being, you know, the home team as such. So, it was an informal way of describing people that were prepared to take risks at the front and those that had to
00:39:10 at the front and those that had to really prioritize being safe themselves. Can I just say this is completely made up. This this event did not happen. Yes, I'll come to the the rest of this report in a moment later on, but I just want to stick with
00:39:24 want to stick with the uh away team if if I may. Um, another report, um, I don't think we need it on screen, but the reference is UCPI 34442 and it's at tab 10 of your bundle, sir. Says, "The following is a list of
00:39:38 Says, "The following is a list of members of the away team, the militant labor stewarding group, which can be called upon if trouble is anticipated. All away team members are trusted street activists." Um, is that a um an accurate
00:39:52 activists." Um, is that a um an accurate description? Even if the away team label you don't agree with, is that an accurate description of those who could be called upon as that core stewarding group?
00:40:01 group? Well, take out the word street. I think street has got connotations about street violence. But the word about trusted people that have been stewards week in week out, know what to do in a difficult situation, prepared to to put themselves in the line of risk. That is fairly
00:40:16 in the line of risk. That is fairly accurate. It is informal. I don't think the word streets there but the rest of it I think yeah it was a core body of reliable cat stewards you could trust upon. Um so you know when Lois was
00:40:30 upon. Um so you know when Lois was attacked she would have stewards around her people she trusted upon. Yeah that that in effect was was what it was. Yeah.
00:40:37 Yeah. Was the use of violence against extreme right-wing activists as a preemptive or planned offensive tactic any part of that group's group of stewards role? Absolutely not. Um, was it any part of the role of the steward?
00:40:53 steward? No, we were always there to protect, to keep safe, to defend the campaign, defend the protest, defend the community. It was always a situation of, you know, if if you're committed to social change, it's not easy. You know, you have to take risks. You know, my
00:41:05 you have to take risks. You know, my wife is on her fourth week of strike action. You know, if you want social change, you have to take risks. If you're in a campaign or a protest, you have to take risks to defend that campaign, that protest. It was just
00:41:17 campaign, that protest. It was just about defending communities and protests and each other. Um, it was never about anything. You were pre never pre you use a word about preemptive.
00:41:31 preemptive. Never preemptive. It's never about attacking anyone. It was always about defending our communities and each other.
00:41:39 other. And did that core the membership of that core stewarding group, was that decided? as you've just said, they were trusted people you'd known for some time who could be relied upon to take on those roles regularly. Yeah. Um if if you've been in
00:41:52 Yeah. Um if if you've been in demonstration, you know, if if if you're about to be clobbered by by by a policeman or assaulted by a fascist, you want people around you who you can trust, who you can rely upon, people who aren't going to respond in a violent manner. You want people that going to keep you safe. So you want people, you
00:42:05 keep you safe. So you want people, you know, week in week out who you can rely on.
00:42:07 on. Dave Smith is a prime example of people you can rely on who will keep you safe. Um, can we look at MPS 0071194
00:42:24 and it's at tab B 143 of the bundle sir. Um, it's page one and it's the penultimate paragraph.
00:42:33 Um this report talks about again the socialist uh away party away team and it's described um as you are described uh along with others there as senior
00:42:47 uh along with others there as senior members uh of the socialist party away team a stewarding group that worked closely with AFA on its actions and had been involved in mass disorder during the London pole tax riots the BNP
00:43:00 the London pole tax riots the BNP bookshop riots in Welling the June 2000 and stop the city disorder and also smaller AFA organized actions against the extreme right-wing in do waterloo and brick lane. The away team also
00:43:13 and brick lane. The away team also undertook actions on its own initiative usually involving small BNP electioneering groups. The group would attack canvases destroying their material and using violence to convince
00:43:26 material and using violence to convince the extreme right-wing activists of the error of their ways. The away team was extremely tight and the leading members had personal relationships dating back 10 to 15 years. Um, in relation to
00:43:43 10 to 15 years. Um, in relation to various of the details set out there, I just want to ask your view on the accuracy of this description. the you would agree from presumably from what you've just told us that
00:43:54 what you've just told us that that away team if we're going to call it that the the group of core stewards um being described as extremely tight and the leading members have having personal
00:44:07 the leading members have having personal relationships dating back 10 to 15 years is that an accurate um description of that group yeah I mean I've been in I was in the socialist party for 20 years so you know you're you're campaigning with people that week in week out yes that's that's True. Yeah.
00:44:21 True. Yeah. Um did that group the away team as described here work closely with the AFA?
00:44:29 AFA? Um yeah, AFA anti-fascist action. Yes. So always I mean as um Lois said this morning, most anti-racist campaigns because sadly the left is is split. There's always three or four or five different groups. So we would work alongside whichever groups were also
00:44:40 alongside whichever groups were also campaigning in that area. Be it AFA, be it anti, be it New Monage Project, wherever it was, we would work with them. Yeah. Um, were you involved in the AFA AFA organized actions against the
00:44:53 AFA AFA organized actions against the extreme right-wing in Dova referred to there?
00:44:59 there? Yeah. So, anti-fascist action was a as a a broad group really. So, I was involved in Kent anti-fascist action which actually was pretty much run by the Y in Kent to be honest. So, I did in do um but that would have been through the Y and our role in CAFAC Kent anti-fascist
00:45:12 and our role in CAFAC Kent anti-fascist action. Were you present at a protest in Brick Lane on the 19th of September 1993 involving the BNP
00:45:27 involving the BNP um on one side of the street and members of the Kingsway anti-fascist group KFG on the other side? That's the week of the video we saw this morning.
00:45:38 morning. Um no, it's not. Um I mean the W and um all the anti-racist groups were in Brick Lane from week after week because the Brick Lane community were trying hard to eject the racist and fascist from their community. So we were in Brick Lane
00:45:49 community. So we were in Brick Lane regularly. Um I don't know if I was in Brick Lane that particular day. Okay. I I'll come to the video. Did see a video of the 19th of September. We did. Um I I can come to that. Uh,
00:46:05 We did. Um I I can come to that. Uh, so I think the one you're talking about we saw this morning I wasn't at. You weren't at? No.
00:46:12 No. Um, I I'll come back to that if I may. Um, I just want to finish off with this document. Were you involved in any um, AFA organized actions against the extreme right-wing in Brick Lane in 1998 or 1999?
00:46:20 or 1999? As I said, week on week, I wasn't here every week, but we helped the Bengali community throughout that time to try and reject the racist basis from their community. Yeah. Um, were you involved
00:46:33 community. Yeah. Um, were you involved in an attack on a BNP canvasing team in Slade Green, South London in either August or September 2001? Do you know? There were various election campaigns where racists would go around putting
00:46:48 where racists would go around putting racist filth through letter boxes and we would challenge them and say you can't go around intimidating community put forward your racist material. So there were campaigns that we were involved in. say green doesn't ring a bell, but it's it's possible.
00:47:04 it's possible. Okay. Do do you have any further comment on what said in that particular report in in particular that the group would attack canvases um and using violence to convince extreme right-wing activists of the error of their ways?
00:47:17 error of their ways? No, we never attacked canvases. We didn't use violence. But if you ever tried to have a conversation with a fascist, it never goes very well. There's no there's no political debate you can have with the fascist. You don't say, "Excuse me, young man. you can't give out your racist material cuz they
00:47:28 give out your racist material cuz they just punch you. So we would if we're in community campaigns defending communities from fascists spewing their racist filth through the letter boxes um you would approach them and say you need to not do that down the street mate. You're not welcome. Racists aren't welcome here. You need to move on. The
00:47:44 welcome here. You need to move on. The fascist responders to assault you. That that is the nature of fascism. So you are put in a situation where you self-defend yourself. You defend the community you're in. You defend your other stewards with you. You defend yourself. You never attack them. But the nature of fascism is they attack you and so you just defend yourself.
00:47:58 so you just defend yourself. Can I just remind you to slow down if you if you can remind me? Sorry. I'll come to some of the specific reports um particularly from Carlos Sarrai HN 104 um in a moment, but I just want to
00:48:12 um in a moment, but I just want to finish off the groups that you were uh involved in in sort of some general background. Um, so at paragraph 2.1b of your witness statement, you talk about
00:48:26 your witness statement, you talk about No Platform and you were a member of No Platform Anti-Fascist Network between 1998 and 2003. Yep.
00:48:34 Yep. You were a chief steward and lead organizer. Is that right? Y
00:48:38 Y no platform evolved into Antifa around 2002 to 2003. You say that uh no platform was an anti-fascist organization united by their commitment to opposing fascism in
00:48:50 their commitment to opposing fascism in Britain politically and where necessary physically. What did you mean there when you said and where necessary physically?
00:49:09 you said and where necessary physically? As I as I said before, you know, I am against fascism because it is unjust. It is unfair. um they assault the leftwing movement that I am trying hard to promote in society. Um when you challenge fascism politically, the fascists don't respond politically. The fascists respond violently. That is the
00:49:20 fascists respond violently. That is the nature of fascism. Their response is to attack you. So if you're going to politically oppose fascism, you have to be aware that they're going to assault you and so you have to be prepared and well organized to defend yourselves.
00:49:34 well organized to defend yourselves. You were chief steward in No Platform as well as in as well as for the Socialist Party. Was that role any different in No Platform to in the Socialist Party or was the purpose and the nature of the role the same?
00:49:46 role the same? Um the role of being chief steward is the same. The organizations were different organizations but the role of chief steward was the same as in if you are encouraging people to go out and campaign and be active and to challenge
00:49:58 campaign and be active and to challenge fascism, you need to make sure that they are safe. I am pleased to say that the entire time that I was chief steward but no platform, every single person left safe and uninjured. That's the main aim of Chief Stewart.
00:50:11 of Chief Stewart. I just want to look briefly at one report uh now. Uh MPS 06407 tab B50 of the bundle. Sir, this report says no platform NP is
00:50:26 this report says no platform NP is supplying stewarding for the hunger strikes strikers demonstration in central London over the weekend of 22nd to 23rd of September 2001. And the source comment reads, "Dan Gilman
00:50:40 source comment reads, "Dan Gilman anticipates that the right wing will be attempting to attack this event and he
00:50:52 attempting to attack this event and he is therefore eager to supply stewards as the chances of confrontation are high." Um, is that report accurate? Were you keen to supply stewards to this demonstration? No. There there are there were two demonstrations that we were initially involved in with the bloody Sunday
00:51:03 involved in with the bloody Sunday march. Um, I don't know which one this is referring to. the f both stu both demonstrations because some of the the anti-fascists were anarchists and involved in the the Irish Republican
00:51:17 involved in the the Irish Republican movement um were in the stewarding team for the demonstration sort of months before the demonstration and the stewards said we need some stewards can you bring along some of your anti-fascist stewards and so we would go along at the request of the chief
00:51:33 along at the request of the chief steward for the demonstration that the first year we did that um and it was attacked by fascists Um the second year and I'm not sure which one this is referring to. The second time we were asked to go along the steward said actually do you know
00:51:44 the steward said actually do you know what um we've learned the lessons from last year. We've got a more secure student team. You don't need to come. So we didn't go along. Yes. There is another report about that. I'll take you to that. So this is the first one is it? This is the first one.
00:51:59 This is the first one. Yeah. So the first one we were asked by the uh Bloody Sunday March to go and help defend their march um from the fascists. We did we didn't know of course it was a bunch of paratroopers who attacking the demonstration but it turns out it was but we were asked to go and help Stuart and we did go and help
00:52:12 and help Stuart and we did go and help Stuart and the march thankfully got past that fascist attack. Thank you. Um Kent Anti-Fascist Action
00:52:24 Thank you. Um Kent Anti-Fascist Action Committee. Um you were a member of that group which comprised you say about 50 local activists through Kent led by militant or the socialist party and loosely affiliated with anti-fascist action. You say paragraph 2.1D of your
00:52:42 action. You say paragraph 2.1D of your statement you were an active supporter of Ka FAC. You were never associated with AFA. AFA's objective was to confront fascists and AFA ceased to be active in 1998.
00:52:54 active in 1998. Um, when you say AFA's objective was to confront fascists, do you mean physically?
00:53:06 AF I never joined AFA because it was more militant than I was prepared to be. Um, you should invite AFA to come here and talk about their approach to anti-fascism. I'm sure they were inspired upon 100 times more than I was. Um, so I didn't join AFA precisely because they had a different approach to their limited anti-fascism. And what was different about it?
00:53:21 And what was different about it? I think they were more prepared to take risks. They went I mean I' I've I've never I'm looking for David for advice. I've never seen Afer attack anyone, but I have seen Afer is put themselves in a bigger level of risk to defend people
00:53:33 bigger level of risk to defend people than I was prepared to do. Was part of their philosophy in terms of confronting fascists directly and by any means necessary?
00:53:44 necessary? Did part of that include physical force or violence? Well, it goes back to the point where if you are going to challenge fascism, sadly, you can't do it politically over a bite. If you challenge fascism, they attack you. So, by your nature, you have to go prepared to be assaulted. And so
00:53:58 to go prepared to be assaulted. And so what was different in the philosophy of CAFAC in terms of confronting fascists directly and by any means necessary than that of AFA?
00:54:11 that of AFA? Um CAFAC was predominantly run by us in the YR in Kent. So we had a slightly different political agenda to AFA. AFA
00:54:22 different political agenda to AFA. AFA were AFA saw anti-fascism as just really anti-fascism. they had a separate political group whereas CAFax or anti-fascism as a broader political program you the the the the jobs and homes not racism would be a good example. So we had we had a broader
00:54:35 example. So we had we had a broader political strategy than just AFA did but AFA welcomed us and we were you know we were always welcome as part of AFA they were tolerant of us and helped us but slightly different political agenda. I
00:54:46 slightly different political agenda. I see. I just want to look at one report in relation to um AFA MPS 05305.
00:54:59 in relation to um AFA MPS 05305. It's a tab B24 of the bundle. Sir, this is a report dated the 9th of February 2001.
00:55:03 2001. And it refers to you being a leading light within no platform. um being approached by representatives from Irish Anti-Fascist Action to provide security
00:55:17 Anti-Fascist Action to provide security for a benefit that they were holding on the Saturday the 10th of February 2001 at the Button Factory off Cold Harbor Lane in Brixham and it says that you had
00:55:29 Lane in Brixham and it says that you had agreed to provide security for the event as you as he is keen to develop closer links with AFA. Um, did you provide security for this event in February 2001?
00:55:40 2001? That's just that's just not true. We run it. It was our it was our our event. We got all the proceeds. That would have made sure they have kept him a fair to run it. No, it was our event. We run it. We we still did it. We booked the bands. Um, it was nothing to do with a fun.
00:55:54 Um, it was nothing to do with a fun. Okay. Is is the report accurate when it says that you were keen to develop closer links with AFA or not? Um, no. I What year is this? What year was that? Uh it's 2001 2001.
00:56:06 2001 2001. No, I think by 2001 AFA seemed to be a a main contributor to anti-fascism in London at the time. So no, I I mean that's just not true.
00:56:19 that's just not true. Uh youth against racism in Europe. Then uh you deal with this group at paragraph 2.1F of your statement. You say you were a member of Youth Against Racism in
00:56:31 a member of Youth Against Racism in Europe from 1993 to 1998. It was run by the Socialist Party, although was separate in principle. Is that right? Yeah.
00:56:39 Yeah. You say you were a leading activist, steward, and sometimes a chief steward. And you say that the Yre was politically active against fascists ideas and organizations.
00:56:52 organizations. Its aim was to oppose the rise of the far right. The yre was prepared to support its political activism against the fascists by defending its own
00:57:03 the fascists by defending its own meetings and/or events and actively defending ourselves and our local communities, standing up to fascist and racist violence and intimidation. When you say actively defending
00:57:15 When you say actively defending ourselves, what do you mean by that in practice? Well, I think I think again Loris made the point well this morning, the beauty is with things run by the Socialist Party, formerly militant, you know, you are surrounded by some
00:57:26 know, you are surrounded by some fantastic trade union activists who've been on picket lines, who've been shured in for years and they've got a very committed, clear picture of what you need to do to run protests properly and
00:57:43 need to do to run protests properly and efficiently and not get assaulted by the police and by fascists. So, it is about being very proactive in your in your defense. That means you have your stewards at your meeting and then stewards also watching just down the road to make sure your meeting is going to be safe. So it's it's a it's it's a really good
00:57:57 really good professional approach to stewarding that other groups didn't have that that's what attracted me towards the war. Would that have included physically defending yourselves from violence by others against you?
00:58:08 others against you? Absolutely. I mean if anyone is assaulted by a fascist you are going to defend yourselves. Yeah. With physical force. Well, you might, you know, you might put your arm up and you might duck and you might run away given half a chance, but if a fascist is pinning you to a corner, you you have no response but to defend yourself.
00:58:25 response but to defend yourself. Um, was that use of uh physical force only ever in self-defense? Absolutely. I mean I the point the point about being a socialist is is you believe in in social justice and in fairness above all else. Assaulting
00:58:39 fairness above all else. Assaulting someone is not fair. That is why we are socialist because we are against unfairness and using violence. So you wouldn't be a socialist if you were out there to cause violence. The two are diametrically opposed to each other.
00:58:54 diametrically opposed to each other. Um was there ever any use or contemplation of the tactic of using preemptive force? Never preemptive. Always an awareness that you might get attacked. Never preemptive.
00:59:05 preemptive. Um at paragraphs 3.1 and 3.2 two of your statement. Um, you say that fascists are only interested in winning power through violence. In the end, they can only be opposed in the same way and that fighting fascism politically by the very
00:59:20 fighting fascism politically by the very character of its ideology means that you have to be prepared to fight it physically too. Does the acceptance there of using violence to oppose fascist violence and to being prepared to fight fascism physically mean that
00:59:37 to fight fascism physically mean that the wiry was prepared to contemplate the use of preemptive violence in its resistance to far-right groups as opposed to only defending yourselves?
00:59:48 opposed to only defending yourselves? But you've missed out the context of of that paragraph where the point is is that Churchill wasn't a preemptive violent person. My granddad wasn't. They were forced into that situation by the nature of fascism. You know, millions of of men and women died in the wars
00:59:59 of men and women died in the wars against fascism because people hadn't earlier on clocked on you had to stand up to them. So
01:00:10 up to them. So the nature of fascism means unless you challenge them, unless you stop them giving out their racist and fascist filth, they just grow and they grow and they grow. And the earlier you intervene, the the less people are, the less disrupted there is, the less death there is.
01:00:21 there is. Um you say you were a steward and
01:00:34 Um you say you were a steward and sometimes chief steward for y. Was the nature of stewarding in y similar to stewarding for no platform and the socialist party? Well I mean we were smaller in no platform. So the point of our stewarding was to keep people safe. Um so we had
01:00:45 was to keep people safe. Um so we had less people to keep safe. Frustratingly with the wre you know it was thousands of young people. Um um and often it was their first demonstration. So there was much more focus, much more focus on keeping things really safe, really
01:01:01 keeping things really safe, really secure. Um almost like safeguarding a teacher because you got thousands of young people. When you had smaller groups like no platform, you had more people that have been out more regular demonstrations. They were a bit more confident. Um so the the nature of what you did might change, but in the end
01:01:18 you did might change, but in the end it's still keeping people safe. just the size of the demonstrations and groups would change. I see. And we've heard quite a lot of evidence this morning from uh Lois Austin about Yre, but I just want to ask you some questions specifically about the Yre away team.
01:01:36 the Yre away team. Um was it commonly known and referred to as that in that way at the time as the away team?
01:01:44 away team? No, it's become a bit of a legend since hasn't it? No, at the time it was it was literally literally the chief stew say right it used that term home and away because it's it's it's from football isn't it? It's so it was an easy way of designating to what level risk where are you going to be on that demonstration? Um so you use it in conversations and
01:02:00 Um so you use it in conversations and help planning demonstration but um no it was never a time it was never an official label at the time. It was a shorthand. It's a It's a way of describing what your role would be on that demonstration or in in that campaign. Yeah.
01:02:12 or in in that campaign. Yeah. And in that context, were you part of the Yre away team? Yeah. So, at times when when the chief steward to say, okay, well, this is the campaign, this is the protest, what role
01:02:23 campaign, this is the protest, what role do you want to play? You know, if if I'm feeling that I'm prepared to put myself at the front of that, then I would have done that. Yeah. Yes. And you said that the the role and purpose of the away team is to be at the forefront of
01:02:35 team is to be at the forefront of stewarding of demonstrations. Um did that involve um the risk of confrontation and violence? That's that's why you say yeah do you know what I'm going to be the team because you think on that demonstration that demonstration needs particular
01:02:49 that demonstration needs particular defending. You know our experience is as we've heard is the police attack demonstrations the fascist attack demonstrations. So yeah, you would you would know if you're saying, "Yeah, I'm prepared to be the away team this week."
01:03:00 prepared to be the away team this week." Then you would know there is someone has assessed the chief steward has assessed on this demonstration. We need some more people at the front who prepared to take that risk. So was the away team in the at least a subgroup of the wider stewarding group?
01:03:16 subgroup of the wider stewarding group? No, you'd always you'd always meet there'd be a chief stewards um often it was Lois or Hannah. there'd be a chief steward and then you'd all meet together and then you'd plan what you were going to do in that campaign over the weeks or on that demonstration on the day and you you you know you'd be given different
01:03:29 you you know you'd be given different roles depending on what what you flagged up as your as your focus and again was was there any contemplation of uh violence or physical force against extreme right-wing activists as a planned offensive tactic
01:03:40 activists as a planned offensive tactic any part of the away team's role? No, it was always an awareness that the fascist could and did attack us and it was being prepared to make sure they didn't hurt anyone.
01:03:53 anyone. Was the away team in the Y all male at the time?
01:03:58 the time? Do you know what I think I think on reflection? We were probably a bit misogynistic at the time. Yeah. And it was it probably was
01:04:11 predominantly male. Yes. And was it required to be all male or did that just come? Oh, and and you know, so I mean, no, so the because we were part of a broader sort of stewarding group, you know, she'd meet as as a stewarding group before the
01:04:26 as as a stewarding group before the campaign, before the demo, and there'd be men and women there. Um, so
01:04:30 so go on, repeat me your question. Make sure I've answered it properly. Thank you. Um, was it required to be all male or did it simply come about in that way? So I'm s feeling a bit guilty
01:04:41 way? So I'm s feeling a bit guilty because from reflection it probably was two male and it would have been better to have more females in it but it wasn't all male all the time but predominantly it was.
01:04:52 it was. And did that reflect an attitude towards physical confrontation and the use of violence
01:04:54 violence or was it for some other reason? I think sadly the labor movement is dominated by men to a large anyway
01:05:05 dominated by men to a large anyway numerically. Um I think it might well have reflected um what you were prepared to risk on the day. Yeah, probably. Yeah.
01:05:21 day. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Uh we've mentioned and it's been shown this morning some clips of the ITV World in action series program. It was series 8 uh series 30 uh episode 8, Violence with Violence, which was aired on the 15th of November 1993.
01:05:33 15th of November 1993. I don't need to play it again. And I think you've seen it.
01:05:44 think you've seen it. You've seen it before today and then you've seen the clips played today in evidence. Thank you. Um just for reference, it's UCPI 39414 in the bundle. Um in relation to that video and how the YR
01:05:55 in relation to that video and how the YR away team is described um in that video, I just want to ask you some questions about some specifics of whether those descriptions are accurate. Uh it it was the YRE leadership is
01:06:08 Uh it it was the YRE leadership is described as not officially advocating violence. Do you agree with that? Absolutely not officially. If it didn't advocate violence, full stop. Um were there around 25 members of the YR away team?
01:06:25 YR away team? No. As I said, it it would vary on every campaign, on every demonstration, you'd be asked where you wanted to put your priority. It would vary from demonstration to demonstration. Was the away team a hidden group within the organization?
01:06:36 organization? No. I mean, I I wasn't particularly important in the ware or the socialist party, but I I was asked, would you rather be away or home team this week? So, no, it wasn't hidden. Was the away team used for defense and direct confrontation?
01:06:48 direct confrontation? Definitely defense, no direct confrontation. Uh in that video there is reporting on the demonstration
01:07:02 there is reporting on the demonstration on the 19th of September 1993 that we've referred to already. That was a BNP demonstration celebrating their bi-election victory at the aisle of dogs. And the the Y away team is reported in the video as being pres
01:07:13 reported in the video as being pres present under the anl banner protesting on um the other side of the street from the BNP. Um is that your understanding
01:07:26 the BNP. Um is that your understanding of what's in that video? Well, I mean, I wasn't there at the demonstration. Um, and I would find it highly unlikely that anyone who's on that day been given an away team shu responsibility would stand there hiding behind an ANL banner. That
01:07:42 there hiding behind an ANL banner. That wasn't their job. Their job was to make sure the demonstration was safe. So, I wasn't there, but I would imagine the way team were on the edges making sure the fascists weren't attacking the counter demonstration. The um type of
01:07:59 counter demonstration. The um type of behavior reported by the YE away team in that um video clip is that some dressed as skin heads crossed over to the BNP protesters side of the street pretending to be racist and effectively confronted those BNP members. Um, was that type of
01:08:18 those BNP members. Um, was that type of tactic something that was um part of the YR's uh tactics in uh confronting fascists?
01:08:25 fascists? So, I currently have got quite short hair and I'm wearing my DMs and if I approach a demonstration, would would you think I was a a fascist or a racist? I mean, there's no dressing up as racist and fascists. We're just ordinary workingclass people who wear
01:08:38 ordinary workingclass people who wear ordinary clothing. So the police made that assumption, oh, white working-class BS, they must have been fascists. I'm wearing now what I have worn at the time.
01:08:47 time. But in terms of what's seen in that video, there was a separation, wasn't there, of the BNP demonstrators and the anti-fascist demonstrators by the police. One on one side on one side of
01:08:58 police. One on one side on one side of the street, the other on the other side. Yeah. And what's shown and what's reported, it said in that um video is that the uh anti-fascists
01:09:12 that the uh anti-fascists deliberately go to confront um BNP uh demonstrators on their side of the street. Um would you agree that that strays into a preemptive physical confrontation?
01:09:23 confrontation? No, because No. Um I first of all I can't tell you what they thought on the day because I wasn't there. Lois was. I think she gave a quite a clear description this morning of what happened on the day. It's not
01:09:39 happened on the day. It's not preemptive. It is you are after weeks and months of working with the local community, the Bengali community. They've just seen a fascist barely fascist uh council elected. There they are on on Brick Lane, the center of Bengali community. Week in week out,
01:09:52 Bengali community. Week in week out, month after month, we've campaigned to get them removed and they've not been removed. That's that's a that's a a natural response of people who are tired of hearing this racist diet triro thrown out at them. It's a natural response. It's not a preemptive attack.
01:10:04 It's not a preemptive attack. But do you accept it goes beyond defending yourselves? No. Because we we were getting attacked. The community was getting attacked. People were being killed. I mean, Britain was one of the streets that
01:10:18 Britain was one of the streets that Copen put one of his nail bombs on, you know. So, when it comes to who's been attacked, the community has been attacked. It's not the fact who's been attacked. Do do you accept that it seems to show an appetite for violence or
01:10:30 to show an appetite for violence or physical confrontation amongst the Y stewards?
01:10:36 stewards? What it shows is a is a is a commitment that I'm wasn't there. I'm assuming that they had at the time a commitment after months and months of working with local community to get eject the fascists from their community. It's a commitment. Uh in the program it's reported that the
01:10:50 in the program it's reported that the away team claimed to achieve their their aim of attacking the BNP and driving them off the streets. Um do you have any comment on the accuracy of that? The fascists never came back to Britain but but that was part of the of a of a
01:11:04 but but that was part of the of a of a of a month of political action but they did never come back. And how do you feel about the way in which the Y away team was depicted in that program generally? Do you have any further comment on that?
01:11:18 further comment on that? Yeah, it's it's it's very negative. It's got this assumption that there was this this secret core group of 25 violent thugs. That isn't what existed. As I said before, there was there was a massive campaign group of professional stewards and you'd just be asked per
01:11:30 stewards and you'd just be asked per campaign per demonstration, how would you help to prioritize your effort in that campaign? That isn't what that video shows.
01:11:42 video shows. Thank you. Um I want to move on just to um going through the final groups that you were part of, please. Um, Reclaim the Streets. You say you were a Reclaim the Streets supporter between 1995 and 2000. You described them as a loose
01:11:53 2000. You described them as a loose confederation of several environmental groups. There was no formal structure or membership and it later evolved into Extinction Rebellion. Is that right?
01:12:06 Extinction Rebellion. Is that right? Yeah. Um, you say that you were arrested on the 30th of November 1999 on suspicion of being an organizer of the 18th of June 1999 carnival against
01:12:17 18th of June 1999 carnival against capital capitalism charges that were later dropped. And you say you were falsely accused and you were never more than an active and keen supporter of reclaim the streets. Is that right?
01:12:34 reclaim the streets. Is that right? Yeah. Um, it it makes me laugh at how ridiculous it was to arrest me for using scuba diving signals. It's it's just ridiculous. You say you've also been a supporter of Unite Against Fascism since 2003. And you've also stewarded for
01:12:46 And you've also stewarded for Searchlight and Hope Not Hate. Is that right?
01:12:50 right? Yeah. So, I continue to work with my community to reject racism and fascism, which means that from time to time I go out and help steward whichever
01:13:02 out and help steward whichever organization is stewarding organizing that demonstration. Were you at one point the chief steward for Search Light?
01:13:07 Light? Don't really think so. I mean, we worked closely with Search Light, which we got a lot of abuse for from other people. Um, no, we would work closely with them. They didn't really have a stewarding team. We work with them.
01:13:20 team. We work with them. A a report in um on dated 24th of May 2004. It's MPS0712798.
01:13:29 It's at tab D6 of your bundle, sir. I don't think there's any need to bring it up on screen, but it says that um you are reg in regular contact with search light, which has once again started feeding information to him. He now
01:13:42 feeding information to him. He now describes himself as the search light chief steward. Do you say that's that's just made up? That's just nonsense. They didn't have a stewarding team. I wasn't their chief steward. I worked closely with them. No, that's just made up. Uh, was stewarding for
01:13:59 just made up. Uh, was stewarding for Search Light similar to the other groups you were stewarding for or was were there any differences? Yeah, they didn't have a stewarding team. They they're an educational charity that gather information about the far right. They they they haven't got a student team. So, no, I wasn't the chief student for them.
01:14:16 chief student for them. Um, more recently, you say you've been involved in Black Lives Matter in 2020, and you were chief steward for marches both in 2020 and pro protests in 2024. Is that right?
01:14:28 Is that right? Yeah. So, the EDL have three times tried to march through my community and three times my community have said no. Um, at paragraph 3.3 of your statement, you say that um, Carlos Arachi accurately reports that no platform
01:14:40 accurately reports that no platform never had a squadist approach. Um, that phrase squadist approach also appears in a report at MPS Treble0628.
01:14:56 a report at MPS Treble0628. It's at tab B57 uh of your bundle, sir. It says, "Members of no platform recently held a meeting in order to discuss concerns expressed by the Socialist Party that NP is squadist in
01:15:08 Socialist Party that NP is squadist in both outlook and method of operation. In addition, it was taking activists away from their primary role within the SP." Um, what do you mean by the term squadist?
01:15:17 squadist? Yeah, it's a good question because I was having a a rave about this recently. So um I think squadist is where you seek to replace the class struggle with a small group of of um freedom fighters,
01:15:32 group of of um freedom fighters, terrorists, activists who try and carry out things themselves instead of the wider movement which which we never did. And is that what did you understand Carlos Sarrai to mean by not having a
01:15:44 Carlos Sarrai to mean by not having a squadist approach? Would he have had the same understanding that you do? Yeah, hopefully. I mean for all for all these meaning and one thoughts I think he got it right there. We weren't squadish. We didn't try to replace a broader political program. We were part
01:15:59 broader political program. We were part of a broader political program. I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will tell me afterwards. And would you say this report is um accurate that there had been some concerns expressed by the Socialist Party about no platform being squadist? And you would say they were simply inaccurate about that?
01:16:14 inaccurate about that? I I don't the the reason that I'm not as clear about what squadism means as perhaps I should be is I just don't recollect ever being an accusation that was that was thrown at us. That's why I've had to recently think about what
01:16:25 I've had to recently think about what what does this what does this term mean? I see.
01:16:31 I see. In terms of um the impact that no platform uh had uh in relation to its activism, at paragraph 3.6 six of your statement you you say that the SDS themselves admit
01:16:44 you say that the SDS themselves admit that no platform had a big impact on the absence of Nazi music gigs in London during its time. Um there's a report uh at MPS 0073304
01:16:59 at tab D8 of the bundle and it's at page three which says a particular aspect of AFA's time was the targeting of extreme right-wing music gigs. AFA were
01:17:10 right-wing music gigs. AFA were particularly successful at disrupting these. So much so that during most of NP's time there were very few gigs held in London. Um would you agree with that?
01:17:23 in London. Um would you agree with that? Yeah, it's one one of the things that I that I am proud of. You know, fighting fascism is a is a it's a political strategy that the point about fighting
01:17:34 strategy that the point about fighting fascism is fascism is is not normal. You know, it's it's unique. It just thrives on violence and hatred. Having a music festival after day when you've been beating people up because they're a different color to you makes it seem normal. So, I'm really pleased that if we played a role in stopping
01:17:46 that if we played a role in stopping fascists having a nice dance and beer after being violent thugs. Yeah, that's good.
01:17:52 good. Um, Carlos Rarachi in this report on
01:18:03 Um, Carlos Rarachi in this report on page one states that no platform was set up in early 2000 and that the group quote agreed that it would itself undertake violent action against rightwing activists and seek to disrupt their activities by whatever means available.
01:18:14 available. It's
01:18:18 It's I believe somewhere in the middle of that page. Yeah. At bottom.
01:18:29 Did no platform agree it would undertake violent action against right-wing activists?
01:18:39 No. That's just that is just not what we exist for. That that is why I'm not going to
01:18:42 going to I'm committed to fighting for justice and equality. The last thing I want to do is spend my time and effort and money on a group committing violent action. It's just not true.
01:18:55 It's just not true. What about physically disrupting their activities by whatever means necessary? No, the whatever means necessary is take whatever you can do to defend yourself.
01:19:06 whatever you can do to defend yourself. Do what you have to defend yourself, not attack fascist meetings. Never attacked a fetish meeting. Um, was there any type of vetting by no platform of its members to seek to
01:19:23 platform of its members to seek to ensure they didn't have a propensity for violent preemptive action which went beyond the potential for uh self-defense? No, we were so the full name was no platform anti-fascist network. So we tried to fill a gap when other groups
01:19:34 tried to fill a gap when other groups withdrew from anti-fascism. We tried to
01:19:41 withdrew from anti-fascism. We tried to fit a gap which is just putting together the the bits and pieces, the odds here and there, the small groups here and there in a in a broader umbrella network. Um I only ever felt responsible for the the socialist party of um no platform. Um there was no leadership. So all the
01:19:56 there was no leadership. So all the different groups would meet together and the different groups would take responsibility for their different groups within their sort of remit. So there wasn't vetting because it wasn't our job to tell anarchists what to do or
01:20:10 our job to tell anarchists what to do or hunts what to do or the wombless what to do. We would just make sure that we are committed to just challenging the fascists. Uh I'd like to look at a report MPS treble04904
01:20:22 report MPS treble04904 please. It's at tab B20 of the bundle. Sir, it's a report dated the 19th of December 2000. Um Mr. Gman, you deal with this at paragraph 3.7 of your
01:20:33 with this at paragraph 3.7 of your witness statement where you say that no platform successfully defended a pub which was a regular meeting point for left-wing and Irish groups in Summerstown near Camden from extreme right-wing intimidation and by the
01:20:44 right-wing intimidation and by the National Front. Um this report which names you and Joe surname unknown lead members of the anti-fascist group no platform have expressed satisfaction at
01:21:01 platform have expressed satisfaction at the recent attack by their group on the right-wing demonstration outside the public house in Houston despite a number of no platform members being arrested at the event. It is viewed as a success as they were able to attack fascists and disrupt the protest. Now
01:21:18 fascists and disrupt the protest. Now you say at paragraph 3.7 as the police were not prepared to remove or arrest those fascists threatening the venue no platform and other anti-fascists had to intervene to disperse uh the fascists
01:21:31 intervene to disperse uh the fascists and you say although there were arrests that no one was charged. What do you say about the accuracy of this report of Carlo's report? Yes. Um, yeah, it's it's it's just clearly his his one-sided view of it
01:21:46 clearly his his one-sided view of it painting a negative picture. I'm I'm I'm proud of the fact that this this this community pub um can continue to support whichever bands it wants to to to play and events it wants to have. Um we
01:21:59 and events it wants to have. Um we defended their right, that the landlord wanted support. We went along and supported the landlords. We defended the pub from a fascist attack. Um there was
01:22:12 pub from a fascist attack. Um there was no joy in in what he says we are pleased about the number of the amount of he's pleased about something it was viewed as a success is they were able to attack fascists the bridge it's a success because the pub still hosts host leftwing and Irish events that's why it's a success
01:22:25 that's why it's a success so you wouldn't agree with the characterization in the report of you and no platform attacking the right-wing demonstration or the fascists
01:22:38 demonstration or the fascists no the the the fascists were trying to stop the um the the Irish event from taking place. The police were doing nothing to stop the fascists. The police were coring, kettling in the people defending the pub. Um they were doing nothing for the fascists and the
01:22:52 nothing for the fascists and the fascists at any point could have broken in and just smashed up the event as as was their plan. Was there physical intervention to by the anti-fascists to disperse the fascists?
01:23:07 fascists? We the fascists were trying to break up the event and we stopped the fascists from attacking that community pub. And when you say stopped them, what does that mean in practice? How did you stop them?
01:23:16 them? Means when when they're about to throw bricks and things through the window and about to assault the pub, you you stand in front of the pub. You say this is not going to happen. You're not going to attack this community pub. We've been asked here by the landlord to defend this event. This is a completely legitimate event. We're here to defend
01:23:28 legitimate event. We're here to defend that event. When the fascist attack you, you're standing away. But when you stand in the way of the fascist, they start to assault you. So you would accept that it does involve physical confrontation.
01:23:41 physical confrontation. Does that say go slow again? It does. Yes. Well, well anticipated. Yes. If you could I'm sorry. I should remind you every
01:23:49 every try and slow down. Thank you.
01:24:00 try and slow down. Thank you. Um so sorry I was asking doesn't that involve uh some physical confrontation? As I as I keep keep saying, if if you are committed to promote the labor movement and communities and defend them from fascism, the nature of fascism means is
01:24:15 fascism, the nature of fascism means is that they're going to assault you and so violence erupts because the fascist bring that violence with them. Um,
01:24:16 Um, wouldn't you accept though that proactively dispersing fascists from a location would involve some offensive violence as opposed to only defensive?
01:24:28 violence as opposed to only defensive? No, because they were there for the sole purpose of attacking. They weren't there for the gig. They weren't there for the
01:24:39 for the gig. They weren't there for the music. They were there to attack it. All we're doing is defending that pub and and that event.
01:24:50 and that event. Can we look please at MPS treble06121 at tab 42 sir of your bundle. Um this is a report dated the 18th of June 2001 and it says no platform are intending to carry out more targeting on right-wing
01:25:02 carry out more targeting on right-wing extremists with a view to attacking them whilst out canvasing or leafleting. It is hoped that the organization can build up a good intelligence portfolio of known right-wing extremists who can be
01:25:15 known right-wing extremists who can be visited at appropriate times. And then the source comment says, "It would appear that NP is adopting more and more of the type of tactics of anti-fascist action.
01:25:26 action. Dan Gilman is particularly in favor of this type of activity. Was no platform intending to carry out targeting of right-wing extremists with a view to attacking them whilst out canvasing or leafleting?"
01:25:43 canvasing or leafleting?" I'm really pleased you brought this up because if you hadn't, I was going to raise it. This is this is one of the prime examples of just his complete madeup nonsense to try and make us sound much more scary to justify what was a a nice time that Carlo was having. It's it's madeup nonsense. At no point has
01:26:02 it's madeup nonsense. At no point has any leftwing any anti-fascist group I've ever known, let alone what I've been involved in done this. Just it just doesn't happen. And this this report refers to more targeting. Had there ever been any of this type of targeting that is preemptively going out seeking confrontation with fascists as opposed
01:26:14 confrontation with fascists as opposed to defending other anti-fascist events? I I I mean if if you can find me ever in the history of anti-fascism, any
01:26:25 the history of anti-fascism, any anti-fascist group has gathered a body of evidence about fascists to attack them. Just it's just not what anti-fascists do. It's why we're anti-fascists. We do not do this. And the particular reference to you being in favor of this type of activity, what would you say about that? I think
01:26:38 what would you say about that? I think it's just Carter trying to paint a bad negative picture of me. It's a lie. Yeah.
01:26:42 Yeah. Um, what do you think is the reason he reported it in this way? I think I what a cracking job he's getting paid to go out and drinking with his mates and having fun. He has to justify he has to justify the the millions of pounds being spent on him
01:26:56 millions of pounds being spent on him and his nice flat and everything else is spent on him. He got to justify that. So, he has to create this picture that's just it's not a real picture. It's just
01:27:07 just it's not a real picture. It's just there to try and justify the the the the im immorality of all he's doing. He's trying to justify it and it's just not true.
01:27:16 true. The report also refers to building up an intelligence portfolio of right-wing extremists who can be visited at appropriate times. Was no platform interested in identifying or visiting fascists?
01:27:27 fascists? Absolutely not. Never. And not just us. No anti-fascist has ever done that. Um, what about the portfolio? Did a portfolio or database of any kind exists in relation to extreme rightwing?
01:27:41 in relation to extreme rightwing? Nothing that that I've I've never seen a portfolio or or database of of fascist names.
01:27:44 names. Are you aware if search light had any such portfolio or similar database? I'm not in search light. I can't I I doubt it. I don't never I've never seen it.
01:27:57 it. Um so you would say essentially all all of the action um referred to here was all about defense not about targeting or offensive action. Yeah. If ever we got information from search light it was we have heard the
01:28:11 search light it was we have heard the fascist is going to attack this meeting. We have heard the fascist are going to do this thing. It was never an address or a name of a fascist or a photograph. It was always they're going to do this thing. They're going to attack you here. So it was was was never never a sponsored kind of database.
01:28:26 sponsored kind of database. Did did you ever see or were you ever aware of anti-fascists seeking to provoke violence from extreme right-wing activists or protests in order to respond with violence in kind.
01:28:41 respond with violence in kind. If you've ever seen Combat 18, the last thing you want to do is provoke them into a fight. No, we've never tried to provoke these great big Nazi thugs into a fight. It's just just not a wise thing to do.
01:28:54 to do. There was though, as I think you've accepted an and acknowledged risk of violence occurring. Um, how could you be confident that your protests or your disruption of right-wing protests wouldn't end up with someone getting
01:29:06 wouldn't end up with someone getting seriously hurt? Because the whole point about stewarding is to make sure that if you are encouraging people to get politically active and get involved in campaigns and to defend the community,
01:29:19 campaigns and to defend the community, the first thing you have to do is make sure they are safe from doing that. Um what what would have been the threshold for you to decide to cancel an event or your participation in an event
01:29:30 event or your participation in an event because of such a risk? Well, I mean the only the only time we've done that was was that second bloody Sunday march when the the stewards said, "We've assessed the situation. We think that we are confident that if the fascists do attack it, we are well suited. We're safe. We
01:29:42 it, we are well suited. We're safe. We don't need you." Then we didn't go on.
01:29:55 don't need you." Then we didn't go on. Um so did you routinely, perhaps not formally, but did you routinely consider the risk of violence or public disorder in your attendance at events? Yeah. Well, you know, the the the reason you have a stewarding team is our
01:30:06 you have a stewarding team is our experience in the war socialist party no platform is that the police and the fascists attack demonstrations. They try and stop you uh changing society for positive reasons. So, um you you always
01:30:19 positive reasons. So, um you you always go there with the expectation that there is a chance it will be attacked. Yeah. Um, I want to look at a number of other reports to ask you about some of the details within them and their accuracy. Um, I anticipate your answers are going
01:30:35 Um, I anticipate your answers are going to be very similar in relation to all of them. Uh, as the answers you've already given. So, I'm hoping we can move through these relatively quickly, but um, if we just see how we go this
01:30:47 um, if we just see how we go this afternoon with time. Um, can we look at please MPS treble05831 at tab B37? Um this is a report dated the 4th of May 2001.
01:30:54 2001. Um and it refers to recent um anti- anti-fascist activity in uh Leicester on that date and the view that it had been uh an overwhelming success. It says Dan
01:31:08 uh an overwhelming success. It says Dan Gilman was particularly pleased with the day as the National Front were unable to march in the town center and were
01:31:25 march in the town center and were restricted to holding the march in a car park on the outskirts of the city in an industrial estate. He was also pleased with the attack on a car carrying NF National Front supporters outside Hinkley BR station. The attack was the result of educated guesswork by NP and
01:31:36 result of educated guesswork by NP and was carried out by members of London NP and Nottingham, formerly AFA. Um, so this report refers to disruption of a National Front March in Leicester
01:31:47 of a National Front March in Leicester and you being pleased with the success of that anti-fascist anti-fascist activity. In that regard, is that aspect of the report accurate? No.
01:31:56 No. So
01:32:03 So to the best of my knowledge, he has made up this National Front March. As far as I'm aware, there was no National Front March. What there was was the first ever gay pride in Leicester. I see.
01:32:11 I see. The fascist Well, let me explain. The fascists had told someone in the media they were going to attack the march. And so the police banned the march. Didn't didn't ban the fascists. They banned the march. So, the gay pride
01:32:22 banned the march. So, the gay pride stewards contacted us and they said,
01:32:34 stewards contacted us and they said, "We're going to go anyway. Can you come and help us out?" So, we went along to help the first ever um Leicester gay pride march take place and start a fascist attack in it. And you think that that um gay pride march was on this date, the 4th of May, 2001, and that was what happened that day, not not what's in this?
01:32:48 day, not not what's in this? Absolutely. What what he's tried to do is is try to create a completely false picture. There was no National Front March. They were gathering to attack gay pride march. That's what fascists do. And so the reference to an attack on a car containing National Front
01:33:02 car containing National Front supporters. Um is that aspect of the report accurate? We didn't attack a car. The National Front were getting their their hit squad ready to attack the gay pride march. Thank you. The police were stood by. The police were doing nothing.
01:33:16 were doing nothing. Can't be banning the gay pride march. Thank you. Can we look at MPS uh treble06937?
01:33:20 It's at tab B63 of your bundle, sir.
01:33:32 Uh that's a report dated the 8th of October 2001. And I just want to look at certain aspects um of this report and again get your comment on how accurate it is. Um this is a report about um no platform activists planning uh for the
01:33:46 platform activists planning uh for the right-wing activity around Remembrance Sunday in central London in 2001.
01:33:57 Sunday in central London in 2001. And it says the main aim will be to disrupt the right wing wing wreath laying ceremony or to physically confront the right wing. Um, it then goes on a little further down.
01:34:10 The leading faces in NP, such as Dan Gilman and Mario, which is a cipher we're using um to protect that person's anonymity, will be used as a decoy for the police spotters by going to an
01:34:23 the police spotters by going to an unconnected location, possibly Hide Park or Green Park. Dan Gilman will use his phone which he believes to be monitored to suggest that the NP meeting point will be at this unconnected location.
01:34:35 will be at this unconnected location. It it carries on a little bit further on. It is hoped that this will give the NP the breathing space away from police attention that they need to organize an attack on the right wing.
01:34:50 attack on the right wing. Um and the source comment at the end um says London NP are determined to make this a successful activity and to avoid spoiling by the police. So this reporting suggests doesn't it very
01:35:02 reporting suggests doesn't it very deliberate pre-planned premeditated use of violence? Is that aspect of the report accurate? That is what it suggests and it's made up nonsense.
01:35:19 up nonsense. Did you intend to use a tactic of being a decoy for police spotters on this occasion?
01:35:22 occasion? Absolutely not. That that was that was the meeting point where we're going to meet at Green Park which is just around the corner from the Senate half and we were as antifascists do every single year go and protest at fascists
01:35:41 year go and protest at fascists celebrating at our center. Um, was this a tactic, the tactic of using certain activists to be a decoy for police spotters so that police were drawn away from where the actual action was? Um, a
01:35:52 from where the actual action was? Um, a tactic used by you or other no platform activists generally? No. As I said, that that was our meeting point. There was no no plan decoy. That was where we were meeting. Did you ever use such tactics? No.
01:36:08 No. Um, you did believe your phone to be monitored. Well, it was I mean on his on his report he's got my phone number and he's got my wife's phone number. We'll come to that a bit later, but yes. So, you did believe your phone to be monitored.
01:36:22 monitored. Um, did you ever use your phone to talk about a false meeting point in order for police to or no state to listen in on that that that false information? This is this is this is quite simply not true. I mean, I I use my phone in the
01:36:36 true. I mean, I I use my phone in the knowledge that I've seen it. My phone is on some special branch report. I use it all the time. The point I mean know we never hid anything. Nothing we did nothing we did was illegal in all the years that we were spied upon. Not a single one of us got arrested or charged with any anti activity. Nothing we did
01:36:48 with any anti activity. Nothing we did was illegal. So I'm more than happy to use my phone and still do any time. And do you have any further comment on the suggestion in the report that tactics
01:37:03 suggestion in the report that tactics such as using a decoy would hope to give no platform breathing space away from police attention that they needed to organize an attack? In other words, offensive preemptive violence on the rightwing. No. And in particular, every single year we anti-fascist movement always go and
01:37:17 we anti-fascist movement always go and challenge the fascist celebrating at the senator. Nothing to hide in there.
01:37:24 Um can we look please at MPS 000011626 which is a report at tab B 102 of your
01:37:39 which is a report at tab B 102 of your bundle sir um you deal with this report Mr. Gilman at paragraph 3.10 10 of um your statement. Um the report is dated the 31st of March 2003.
01:37:49 2003. Um and you say Carlo suggests that I was involved in organizing an attack on a BNP meeting. This is just not true. No platform never attacked the BNP meetings. And more importantly, there is
01:38:04 meetings. And more importantly, there is no evidence of this ever occurring. What we did do was to prevent the BNP from attacking other people's meetings. Um this refer this report referred to a meeting that is planned in for Crouch End on the evening of Tuesday the 4th of February 2003 and it was said in the
01:38:17 February 2003 and it was said in the report that the group intended to hire a van and place between 8 and 10 activists in inside. Spotters who will be covering the area around the town hall and
01:38:30 the area around the town hall and surrounding tube and rail stations will then direct the van to the BNP meeting or onto any BNP activists in the area. The NP activists will then attempt to attack the activists or disrupt the meeting. Um, and what it says about you
01:38:46 meeting. Um, and what it says about you is that those NP activists most known to the police, Dan Gilman, Mario, and Frank Smith will go to the main demonstration
01:38:59 Smith will go to the main demonstration outside the town hall in order to divert attention away from the main team. Um, do you recall this particular BNP meeting on the 4th of February, 2003 in Crouchend? There was no BMP meeting in Crouchend on that day.
01:39:11 Crouchend on that day. So you didn't attend a demonstration outside the town hall on that occasion? I absolutely did go to Crouch End on that day and we did stand outside the town hall because there was a meeting in the town hall of which I've forgotten
01:39:22 the town hall of which I've forgotten that we were there to help defend. The fascist didn't turn up. Job done. Um so again the language um used in this report particularly the use of the word attack seems again to suggest deliberate
01:39:37 attack seems again to suggest deliberate and pre-planned violence. Um what do you have to say about that? It does suggest it. Again he's trying to justify a nice smooth job that he had. Um it's it's made up nonsense there. There was there was no B&B meeting. We weren't going to attack it. We didn't
01:39:49 weren't going to attack it. We didn't get a van. There were no spotters. We were in Crouchend to defend a meeting that if I remember rightly the fascists have threatened to attack. They didn't attack it. So it's all it's all just
01:40:00 attack it. So it's all it's all just made up to create a scenario that's just not real.
01:40:04 not real. So deliberately untrue reporting by him, you would say? Absolutely. Um was this type of strategy or tactic described in this report used more generally or on other occasions by no platform?
01:40:22 platform? The strategy of attacking BMP meetings. attacking BNP meetings and um diversion of police with others. Absolutely not. We have I have never attacked a BNP meeting and I've never tried to divert the police away from what we're doing. Never being ashamed of what we've done.
01:40:40 what we've done. Um you say that what you did do was to prevent the BNP attacking other people's meetings. Um what type of meetings are you referring to there? Well, the BMP would attack any meeting against the BMP. I mean only this month
01:40:51 against the BMP. I mean only this month there was an an NEU meeting in town amit attacked by fascists and they they attack any meeting that they see as a threat to to their domination of a community and as a threat to them they attack them. So treasure meetings,
01:41:03 attack them. So treasure meetings, socialist meetings, community meetings, any anti-racist meeting, uh gay pride marches, all these are all the things that fascist attack and these are the things that because I believe in helping people and in social cohesion, they're
01:41:16 people and in social cohesion, they're things that me and others will go along and defend. Um there would have been an accepted risk of violence even in in a in carrying out that role even of defense
01:41:28 carrying out that role even of defense though, would wouldn't there? you as I said you know if you're taking on the state whatever you do whether it's an economic uh damage of strike action or whether it's a standing in front of a
01:41:40 whether it's a standing in front of a demonstration that there is a risk sadly that is come to being a socialist there is a risk involved and and of public disorder the I've rarely been in a demonstration where the police or fascists haven't tried to cause public disorder. Yeah.
01:41:51 tried to cause public disorder. Yeah. I've never been in one where we we set out to cause it ourselves. Um, a report at MPS Treble04993,
01:42:04 Um, a report at MPS Treble04993, please tab B22 of the bundle. I think this is the report that you were referring to about the Bloody Sunday um demonstration. It's dated the 17th of January 2001.
01:42:23 The report says that you had indicated that the group will not be attending the Bloody Sunday commemoration on the 21st of January 2001 as there is likely to be an unusually strong police presence which would inhibit any activity the
01:42:34 which would inhibit any activity the group would normally be involved in. However, if the organizers of Bloody Sunday request assistance in stewarding their rally, then no platform would be happy to help out. Um did you give such
01:42:50 happy to help out. Um did you give such an indication that you would be willing to steward the rally if they asked for assistance? I think one of I think um Mario was part of the the stewarding group for the march anyway separate from the anti-flyascist group. So he would just communicate with us and that they said didn't need us so he didn't go.
01:43:07 didn't need us so he didn't go. Um this report implies that no platform and you particularly would have been seeking to act in a way which would attract police attention presumably arrest. um activity such as violence or public
01:43:20 activity such as violence or public disorder. Um do do you agree with that? No. So we we only ever defend demonstrations and protest. We don't go there to to to attract public disorder. So this is a good example of where we
01:43:33 So this is a good example of where we don't need to defend something. We don't go that's why we don't go is because we don't need to defend it. Um, would an unusually strong police presence, as is reported in this report, have ever put you or no platform off from attending a demonstration?
01:43:50 demonstration? No. Um, because we we're not you don't never set out to to pick a fight with the police. You set out to defend a demonstration and and the police generally do police demonstrations. So, no, we'd never not go because there were going to be police there. And that there's some suggestion in some of
01:44:01 there's some suggestion in some of Carlos Sarra's reports that a strong police presence would preclude you and other no platform activists fulfilling
01:44:12 other no platform activists fulfilling your objectives of offensive preemptive violent confrontation. Um if that suggestion is maintained, what what would be your response that that is a fundamental
01:44:28 that that is a fundamental misrepresentation of what our whole purpose was in being at events? Um the
01:44:37 the seeking out of fascists or members of the extreme rightwing with the deliberate aim or purpose of violent confrontation or attack or ambush is a theme that runs through much of Carlos Sarra's intelligence reports concerning
01:44:56 Sarra's intelligence reports concerning no platform and you personally. Um, what comment do you have on that general theme throughout his reporting? It turns out I had stood next to me at nearly every demonstration I was at a policeman Carlo.
01:45:11 policeman Carlo. Never at any single point did I ever do anything of any violent nature that would meant that he could get me arrested. I mean, so the evidence of Carlo himself, his presence himself proves
01:45:21 proves never had any interest in this kind of violent preemptive action. That's please me. He'd have known. He'd have seen it. It never happened the entire time he was there.
01:45:32 entire time he was there. So, it's all wild exaggeration. Simply untrue.
01:45:35 untrue. It's all simply untrue. It's to justify what for him was a nice fun four years.
01:45:49 So, I'm conscious of the time. Um, we did start a little late. I I can carry on if everyone else I have been trying to be fast, so I'm trying to do my thing. I know. And I I'm conscious that I've asked you to move through these things quickly, but then also slow down. So, I
01:46:05 quickly, but then also slow down. So, I apologize for that. Um there are various other allegations um that uh you make against uh Carlos Arachi about his reporting and indeed allegations he makes about you in his reporting that I want to deal with. Can we just look at
01:46:18 want to deal with. Can we just look at some of those in more detail please? Can we have on screen MPS064?
01:46:22 It's at tab B 51 of the bundle.
01:46:29 uh you deal with this report, Mr. Gilman, at paragraphs 3.13 and 3.14 of your statement. Uh this report is dated the 9th of August, 2001.
01:46:53 Um, it refers to no platform activists planning to sabotage the red, white, and blue weekend arranged by the BNP in Mid Wales over the weekend of the 11th and 12th of August. Um, and approximately 40 activists from London, West Yorkshire, and Nottingham sections of NP are
01:47:04 and Nottingham sections of NP are planning to travel to the event. The intention is to completely disrupt the event. Um NPS NP activists will be divided into self-contained groups. A
01:47:20 divided into self-contained groups. A group will comprise of the individuals in each car and the one minibus hired for the event. Uh it refers to specific tasks being allocated and then it says an attempt will be made to break into the site of
01:47:31 will be made to break into the site of the event and cause criminal damage or vandalize any property found inside. It is also intended to sabotage the water supply for the event by locating the supply pipes and disrupting them. In
01:47:47 supply pipes and disrupting them. In addition to the above, there will be roaming patrols around the area on Friday evening and Saturday looking for right-wing activists traveling to the event. The intention is to ambush and
01:47:58 event. The intention is to ambush and physically confront any likely looking individuals. Um it continues a little later. uh the group has enough funds to hire vehicles and intelligence is being supplied to Dan Gilman by Searchlight.
01:48:12 Dan Gilman by Searchlight. And it then says that NP activists are actively seeking to establish the location of the home of Nick Griffin. And um NP is confident that their
01:48:23 And um NP is confident that their sources will find this information and if successful, an attack on Griffin's home whilst he is at the PNP event will take place. Um the exact location is
01:48:39 take place. Um the exact location is well known to Dan Gilman and then later on source comment. There is great potential for serious disorder. Um so I want to get um your uh your comments on this. You say in your statement no platform indeed did decide to disrupt the festival. Yeah.
01:48:55 the festival. Yeah. Is that right? Um, and that that was an important part of highlighting the nature of fascism and preventing fascists from spreading the kind of racist, intolerant and anti-democratic ideas which the agencies of the state
01:49:07 ideas which the agencies of the state should be but weren't tackling. And he you also say at 3.14 that as uh Carlos Sari points out in his report, you were planning to sabotage the site, but it is clear from the report there was no violence or attack
01:49:18 report there was no violence or attack on the festival planned. Um, so I just want to look at some specific aspects of the report and ask you if they're
01:49:30 the report and ask you if they're accurate. Um, was intelligence supplied to you by Search Light in relation to this event? No.
01:49:38 No. Uh, are the numbers of activists involved in this event accurate? Around 40.
01:49:41 40. Absolutely not. I think we had a mini bus full.
01:49:44 bus full. So, a dozen. Yeah.
01:49:44 Yeah. Or so.
01:49:49 Or so. Um, you say a mini bus was hired for the occasion. So that's accurate. It was Wales is a long way away. So we spend the money in a mini bus. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Um was there a plan to attempt to break into the site? You've accepted I think in your witness statement there was
01:50:04 statement there was it was a sabotage to make to make it difficult to happen. Yeah. Um you accept there was a plan to disrupt the utilities. So is is that aspect of the report accurate? I don't think any of us were skilled enough to think about attacking
01:50:17 enough to think about attacking utilities, but it was to disrupt it to make it not a normal event. what whatever we could do to make it not normal would have attempted. Yeah.
01:50:30 normal would have attempted. Yeah. In your statement, I think you say disrupting the utilities perhaps having an impact on the sound, lighting, etc. Was that the type of disruption? Yeah, it's it's to is to to come across that this is not a normal thing. This is this is a fascist weekend school. You're
01:50:44 this is a fascist weekend school. You're teaching people how to be good fascists. So to make to make it Yeah. to disrupt it. Yeah. Is the report that you were planning to sabotage the water supply accurate?
01:50:56 accurate? I I've never No. I mean, that that that would that that would that would risk lives, wouldn't it? Water would risk low. No.
01:51:05 low. No. Um do you accept that what you were planning to do was um planned vandalism and potentially criminal damage?
01:51:14 If you're if you know if if you're going to disrupt the sound system probably is a bit damaged. Uh at paragraph 3.14 you say um Carlo's report though hugely overemphasizes our
01:51:28 report though hugely overemphasizes our plans and logistics for that weekend and is a mass exaggeration of our capabilities and aims. You say, for example, there never were, nor were there ever planned, roaming patrols of
01:51:40 there ever planned, roaming patrols of cars driving around looking for likely looking individuals. Absolute nonsense. It's not nothing we have ever done or would ever do. Um, you say in your statement, there was certainly no plan to visit Nick
01:51:52 certainly no plan to visit Nick Griffin's home while he was at the festival because as far as we are aware, the festival was at his home. Is that right? So, in that sense, there was a plan to visit his home, but that's because that's where the festival was.
01:52:06 because that's where the festival was. Yeah. But, but he's implying that we're going to use the this this event as an excuse to go and trash his house somewhere. But, we thought this was his farm, but that's why it was there. So, what he's implying, this secret hit on
01:52:18 what he's implying, this secret hit on his house is just not true. We thought this was his farm.
01:52:32 this was his farm. Um, when the report states that you knew the location of Nick Griffin's home, is that accurate? No, we we we never actually even got to the farm the
01:52:37 the uh so I'm I'm I'm a minute or two away from breaking. Yeah, just to reassure everyone. Um I just want to look at one more report that relates to this event. uh MPS treble06469 at tab 52 of the bundle and it states
01:52:50 at tab 52 of the bundle and it states that the heavy police presence over the weekend totally frustrated the NP plans and has caused leading lights within the organization to once again discuss
01:53:02 organization to once again discuss tactics for future events. Is that report accurate in that respect? No, we didn't plan future events because thankfully there hasn't been a festival after this. Um, we don't need to bring
01:53:20 after this. Um, we don't need to bring it up, but the report at MPS Treble06470 at tab 53 of the bundle refers to a section 14 public order act notice served on you which empowered police officers to impose conditions on public assemblies to prevent serious public
01:53:32 assemblies to prevent serious public disorder damage or disruption and the report notes that you felt you were being unfairly targeted. Um, does that remain your view? Absolutely. I mean, so this is a time when pubs were being bombed cuz they
01:53:44 when pubs were being bombed cuz they were a gay pub. This is a time when MPs were being stabbed. This is a time when black youth were getting stabbed in in South London. And then you're wasting time and money to pay two coppers from
01:53:59 time and money to pay two coppers from Wales to drive all the way to my house to give me a notice and drive all the way back. It's complete waste of resources that should have been spent on the real threats to public disorder, not me. Um the report at um treble06470
01:54:11 me. Um the report at um treble06470 also contains what might be said to be unprofessional and condescending comment on your partner and the effect of the service at your home of this notice. Um
01:54:22 service at your home of this notice. Um do you have any comment on the language in that report? We can look at it if you need to refresh your memory. There there are people in this room that have been abused by Carlo a thousand
01:54:35 have been abused by Carlo a thousand times worse than me and my family. But I I stand by that his his abuse of people who were not involved in any way is completely unacceptable. Thank you, sir. Is that's a convenient moment for a break?
01:54:46 moment for a break? Certainly.
01:54:52 We'll um break for 10 minutes. Is that long enough? Yes.
02:11:35 Thank you, sir. Um, Mr. Gilman, I just have one more question in relation to the event we were talking about before the break, uh, that I neglected to ask. Um, that's the event in Wales, the NP
02:11:50 Um, that's the event in Wales, the NP Festival. Um, I think you said when I asked you whether you received your intelligence about that event from Searchlight that you said no. H how did you know about that event? I think
02:12:00 I think it must have been publicized.
02:12:11 it must have been publicized. I'm not ruling out such didn't tell us. It did tell us things in the past, but as far as I remember, it's quite a it was there. It was there big public event, so I'm think probably it's publicly known. Thank you. Um can we move on then? We dealt um briefly with uh a report
02:12:25 dealt um briefly with uh a report earlier. I just want to ask you uh some particular questions about it. It's um MPS treble04158 and it's at tab B17 of your bundle sir. Um this is in relation to an event on the 7th and 8th of October 2000.
02:12:42 the 7th and 8th of October 2000. Um and it's a report about you and Frank Smith.
02:12:47 Smith. uh taking a group of 20 to 30 activists to Berlin for a demonstration against the German neo-Nazis in that city. Uh and I had asked you some questions about the away team reference in there, but you say in your statement that um Carlos
02:13:03 you say in your statement that um Carlos Saraki grossly exaggerates the number of no platform supporters who traveled to Berlin and it was three socialist party members, not 20 to 30. Is that right? Yes.
02:13:12 Yes. Um,
02:13:16 Um, you accept though that it's accurate in the sense that you and Frank Smith traveled to Berlin. Is that right? Y.
02:13:25 Y. Um, and without naming them for the moment, do you remember who the third was?
02:13:25 was? I do. Yeah. Um, could you write that name down for us, please?
02:13:34 I think he's on this list of names here, isn't he?
02:13:42 isn't he? If he if the person has a cipher that you can refer to the nominal on that cipher list, you can say that name. No, he's not on here. So, I've written it down here. Yeah, I'm very grateful. Um,
02:13:53 Um, would you say that that group comprised disaffected elements of the AFA? No, it was it was a straightforward the the protest in Germany was a a CWI a
02:14:05 the protest in Germany was a a CWI a socialist party Germany event and we were all three socialist party members. So it's primarily a socialist party uh event rather than a no platform or aper event.
02:14:19 event. And the third person you've written down is Joe Batty. Is that right? Yeah,
02:14:28 Yeah, he he's an open person so we can we can say his name. Um, did you think these trips were good PR? Is the report accurate in that sense? No, I I wasn't I wasn't aware that there would be any publicity associated with it. It was
02:14:39 publicity associated with it. It was supporting socialist the German section of socialist party in Germany. It did make the front page of the press, but I wasn't in it. Um, report MPS04991
02:14:54 tab B21 of your bundle, sir. Um this report dated the 13th of January 2001 um was in respect of uh police receipt of a considerable amount of intelligence from search light on activities and
02:15:09 from search light on activities and plans of the far right. And the report concerns um no platform activists meeting outside a pub to ambush a national front demonstration on 13th of
02:15:21 national front demonstration on 13th of January 2001. Um you've said a number of times that ambushing um or attacking is not the sort of activity that no platform uh took uh
02:15:33 activity that no platform uh took uh took part in. Does that apply equally to this occasion? Yeah, it's like I've almost fitting your script because this is another example of something that I would have raised if you hadn't erased it. This is completely made up. This this thing just did not happen.
02:15:50 happen. Um the there is um there reference to um when the NF National Front failed to appear. Gilman spelled wrongly with one L not two but you undoubtedly telephoned
02:16:02 L not two but you undoubtedly telephoned a privacy of the National Front in order to go him about their non-appearance. Um, you deny calling a National Front organizer to go him when they didn't turn up in your statement at paragraph 4.7. Is that right?
02:16:16 4.7. Is that right? Yeah. This this this this whole thing is complete made up. Would you have had access to any National Front organizers or members phone numbers? No.
02:16:27 No. Um, what about from Searchlight? They they would say if there was going to be a a fascist uh attempt to attack something, but they never they never gave me a name or phone number. No.
02:16:40 gave me a name or phone number. No. So the report itself states, as we can see there, it was indicated that the information regarding the demonstration had originated from search light, but you say that was the extent of the
02:16:51 you say that was the extent of the information you got, it didn't include phone numbers. I've got nothing about this because this didn't happen. Okay.
02:16:55 Okay. Um
02:17:04 you've um accepted that search light would uh often give you useful information and was that ever in relation to individual National Front members or their details or was it only concerning events?
02:17:18 only concerning events? We never got in individual information about National Front members. It was always about there's going to be a fascist attack on this community or this demonstration. Can you help steward or or they were going to have a they were
02:17:30 or they were going to have a they were going to have an event and they wanted some stewards to go to their event. There's never information about individuals. Can we look briefly then just at MPS Treble04660
02:17:36 tab uh B19 of your bundle. Sir,
02:17:44 this report states that as a the recent anti-fascist counter demonstration in London on the 12th of November 2000, Dan Gilman received at least five telephone calls from a representative of Searchlight. The caller relayed
02:18:03 Searchlight. The caller relayed information to Gilman concerning the location and numbers of right-wing activists in the area. Um, source comment states Gilman tended to corroborate the information from his own spotters prior to instigating any action. Um, is this report accurate? Yeah. I mean, I don't know the one he's talking about, but yeah, this is what
02:18:17 talking about, but yeah, this is what search would do. They would say they're about to tack your demonstration. This this is where they are. That's exactly what they would do. Yeah. So, would you say that the provision of information was solely for defensive? Absolutely. Yeah. Um,
02:18:35 Yeah. Um, so in this situation, we then had our own spots who would say, "Yeah, they're right. They're they're about to attack you."
02:18:40 you." Was this type of information ever used to target National Front members or activists? No.
02:18:42 No. Or protests? No.
02:18:55 Um, did the uh search light ever pass on photographs of uh National Front members?
02:18:57 members? No. I mean that one of the things we hated about the fascists was they had this this red watch this this website where they could put our photographs on it. We had nothing like that. We just did that's why we were anti-fascist. We were anti that whole concept. No.
02:19:15 were anti that whole concept. No. Um did you ever receive um such photographs from any other source? We got a CD once because we were is that separate question or uh no I'm sorry I interrupted you. I was going to say we could look at the report if it would assist in relation to that CD.
02:19:26 CD. Um MPS treble05537
02:19:38 tab B28 of your bundle sir and this states privacy formerly of anti-fascist action and responsible for much of the organization's photo library has given Dan Gilman of no platform a CD containing photographs of right-wing
02:19:51 containing photographs of right-wing supporters on demonstrations. The CD apparently contains a considerable amount of AFA's photo archive which Gilman intends to use for intelligence and identification purposes. Is that report accurate?
02:20:09 report accurate? We got given a CD. I said we were anti we were no platform anti-fascist network and so someone in that broader network did give me a CD cuz he wasn't in no platform but he thought sort of thing we might want. We didn't want it well interested gave it straight back. It never appears ever again in any of
02:20:26 never appears ever again in any of Carlo's reports. It wasn't what we did. This fellow misunderstood us. Gave it back to him. That would never never appeared again. I see. Did you uh meet with Searchlight activists?
02:20:38 activists? We met with Search Light. Yeah. Yeah. Um and was that uh relationship a two-way street of passage of information? That's another good question. I mean, no platform often got abused by the left of of being a front for search of giving search light information. So often we wouldn't get support from people because
02:20:57 wouldn't get support from people because they thought we were we were search kind of um moles, but we weren't. No, it was never it was never two-way. Um it was they would give us information about potential fascist attacks or they were having a demonstration could help them help them on their demonstration, but it was it was never two-way. Did you
02:21:10 was it was never two-way. Did you discuss with search light activists um anti-fascist strategy probably in conversation? [Applause]
02:21:23 They were fellow anti-fascists. So you you you chat to them and share with them. Yeah. And um reporting of the nature that you were and had been a good reliable contact for the organization search
02:21:35 contact for the organization search light. You would say that's an accurate description of your relationship. 100% proud of the fact of working research like this is a an educational body set up to help defend the Jewish community and the anti-fascist community from fascist attacks. I am more than
02:21:52 from fascist attacks. I am more than happy to say that I worked closely with search and I would do so now. Hope not hate is still one of the the great organizations challenging the fascists. Absolutely. Thank you. Moving on then, I want to ask you about a particular allegation made
02:22:06 you about a particular allegation made against you by Carlos Saraki which you deal with at paragraph 4.23 of your statement. Um before I deal with the specifics, I just want to ask you some general point about some general points
02:22:24 general point about some general points you make in that particular paragraph of your statement. You say that hatred and violence are the opposite of your beliefs and that you never supported any group that saw violence as motor for change. Is that right? Absolutely.
02:22:36 Absolutely. And when you say motor for change, what do you mean exactly? I and all the people at the back are all committed socially believing that the the working class produce the wealth in
02:22:50 the working class produce the wealth in society and we use that power to change society through economic and social means not violently. And can I just ask you how those statements there relate to those you've made earlier earlier in your statement
02:23:05 made earlier earlier in your statement that I've asked you about at paragraphs 3.1 and 3.2 too that fascists are only interested in winning power through violence. In the end, they can only be opposed in the same way and that fighting fascism politically by the very
02:23:17 fighting fascism politically by the very character of its ideology means that you have to be prepared to fight it physically too. Um h how do you reconcile those two statements?
02:23:28 reconcile those two statements? Well, there is no reconciliation. The the key words there is in the end, isn't it? In the end, if you don't defend your community, defend your organizations, defend the labor movement, then the fascists will win and they will win and
02:23:42 fascists will win and they will win and they will win through violence. So, it's it's in the end is the key thing there. The earlier you change fascism politically and in small in defending your communities, the less they have the chance to use their violence.
02:23:58 chance to use their violence. I just want to ask you about the no platform flyer that you've exhibited to your statement. It's exhibit 5 UCPI 37880
02:24:03 37880 and it's at tab A6 sir of the bundle. That flyer states the policy of no platform for fascism recognizes that political opposition however necessary is pointless unless accompanied by a
02:24:14 is pointless unless accompanied by a willingness to physically confront the fascists. Um h how does that statement relate to what you've said at paragraph
02:24:31 relate to what you've said at paragraph 4.23? 23 about never supporting a group that saw violence as motive for change and hatred and violence being the opposite of your beliefs because we're not calling for violence to be a motive for change there. What we're saying is there is you cannot take on fascism without being prepared to challenge fascism which is which is
02:24:45 challenge fascism which is which is their motor is violence. Am I going too fast again? Yes.
02:24:47 Yes. Thank you. Their motor is violence. That their solution to any problem is violence. If you are going to challenge fascism, you have to be prepared to stand up to that violence. That's what that means to me.
02:25:01 violence. That's what that means to me. Thank you. The the no platform flyer refers to no platform activists having played a part in the history of militant anti-fascism. What's meant there by militant anti-fascism?
02:25:13 militant anti-fascism? I can refer you to Lois's long speech this morning about militant. It's um it's about taking action. It's about campaigning. It's about not standing
02:25:25 campaigning. It's about not standing back and letting things happen. It's about being proactive. Um, yeah.
02:25:26 yeah. Thank you. Not as good as Lois's one, but that that's what it means. Thank you. It was shorter at least, which I appreciate. Um,
02:25:35 Um, paragraph 252 of Carlos Saraki's witness statement addresses a particular allegation he uh makes against you that he um uh an
02:25:49 makes against you that he um uh an allegation, sorry, that you make against him. uh that he sought to persuade you and others to petrol bomb a charity shop belonging to an Italian fascist. And he
02:26:04 belonging to an Italian fascist. And he states, "This is a false allegation. Dan Gilman was the person I recall bringing the issue up and making the suggestion about attacking the shop." Um I want to ask you um some questions about that allegation specifically, but generally
02:26:18 allegation specifically, but generally what's your response to that allegation? Well, again, it's it's another thing that I'm pleased that you brought up because I would have brought it up. Um, at no point ever in the history of anti-fascism has any anti-fascist ever petrol bombed any fascist uh facility
02:26:33 petrol bombed any fascist uh facility event. You know, the bookshop was never attacked. It's not something anti-fascist do. That's the reason why we're anti-fascists. We we oppose this idea of using violence for political ends. Fundamentally opposed to it. We
02:26:47 ends. Fundamentally opposed to it. We have never done it. That that's the the the contextual background. I mean, I'm sure you can ask. I can wait for your questions if you want, but you know, how am I I didn't even know there was a charity shop, let alone you. You go on, you can ask.
02:27:01 you can ask. Let's come to some of the details, but but essentially you you would say it's a simple lie by him. Absolute lie. It's more than a lie. It's it's it's a it's a proactive way to try and get me to commit a crime because he hadn't got a crime from me at that point and he had to try and justify his
02:27:13 and he had to try and justify his placement. And you did not and never would have brought this issue up and suggested attacking a shop in the way that Carlos Saraki says you did.
02:27:27 that Carlos Saraki says you did. Absolutely. I've never done it. No one ever knows never done it. It's why I am political is the sort of things like that happening. It's fundamentally opposed to everything I believe in and I didn't even know there's a charity shop around the corner. So let's look at some of the the details then. Um it and it starts at paragraph
02:27:47 then. Um it and it starts at paragraph 4.25 of your statement. Um, you accept that in 2002, I believe it was New Year's Eve. Is that right? I think so. Yeah, it was New Year's Eve. Yeah. Not sure the year, but it's definitely New Year's Eve. Yeah.
02:27:58 definitely New Year's Eve. Yeah. Thank you. Um, you you visited um what was alleged to have been Roberto Fior, an Italian fascist suspected of train bombings in Bologna. His charity shop, essentially a front for his fascist
02:28:13 essentially a front for his fascist activities, was the suggestion. after a night drinking with Carlos Saraki and others.
02:28:14 others. Yeah.
02:28:14 Yeah. Um
02:28:19 Um we didn't visit. We were taken to taken by who? Carlo.
02:28:22 Carlo. And where was the charity shop in relation to where you were at the time? It was around the corner from the flat that he shared with Donna.
02:28:33 that he shared with Donna. Thank you. Um you say you can't specifically recall but think that the information about the shop which appeared to be true must have come from
02:28:45 appeared to be true must have come from Carlos Saraki. H how um how good is your recollection of of this this event and this conversation? Recollection of the conversation of the time? Well, I mean, who who would know there was a charity shop around the corner? Would only have been Carlo. It turns out there was. Who would know it
02:29:00 turns out there was. Who would know it was a front for a fascist group? Turns out it was. This is all things that Carlo was the only person in the country that knew these things. So the conversation must have come from him. How else would that conversation arise?
02:29:15 How else would that conversation arise? You didn't know about this particular charity shop at the time, you say? I I didn't know till I till the private eye article about 10 years later. Yeah.
02:29:26 eye article about 10 years later. Yeah. And specifically, you weren't aware at the time from anyone other than Carlos Iraqi on that night that it was potentially a front for this Italian fascist.
02:29:32 fascist. Who's who's going to know? Unless you're part of special branch, it's a front for for a fascist. Um there was some talk on the way to going to the shop. Uh you can't remember by who, but there was
02:29:47 can't remember by who, but there was some talk about attacking the shop. Is that right? Yeah, there there was there was talk again
02:29:51 again where is this coming from? There's talk about what are we going to do about this charity shop? Bear in mind we had even got to charity shop. We didn't even know the charity shop existed. So that conversation about what to do about it is not going to start unless you know
02:30:03 is not going to start unless you know it's there. We didn't even know it was there.
02:30:09 there. Um, so do you think that Carlos Iraqi was involved in that talk about attacking particular? Absolutely. That was that was the whole reset of that event.
02:30:23 reset of that event. And the the nature of the attack discussed was to your recollection to do with bricks through the window or potentially a petrol bomb. Yes.
02:30:25 Yes. Um, did you take part in that talk? I suspect Yeah. I would have take part of the conversation. Yeah. Would have generally been about this is not a good idea. the conversation took place. I was
02:30:36 idea. the conversation took place. I was in that conversation. It would have been this is not what we do. Uh how well do you recollect that being the nature of what you were saying? I don't entirely recollect it. It was a New Year's Eve party. It was 20 years
02:30:48 New Year's Eve party. It was 20 years ago. I can't remember it word for words. I'm just imagining what I would have said in that situation. But yeah, 20 years ago it was a New Year's Eve party. I can't recolle it word for word. What I can rec is is I had no idea this thing existed.
02:31:03 existed. Did you take the talk about attacking the shop in that particular manner seriously? Absolutely not. I mean it because because the the people everyone else apart from Carlo were all Socialist
02:31:17 apart from Carlo were all Socialist Party members and and anti-fascist. It's not what we do. So yeah, it would never have been taken seriously by any of us other than by Carlo. How did the conversation and um the event that evening end? What what was the upshot of the the conclusion of that conversation? Well, we we he took us
02:31:30 conversation? Well, we we he took us there, showed us this shop. He told us it was his fascist front. You know, we weren't to know at that time it was. Like I said, only found out it was a couple of years ago. So, we saw this CH shop. He was talking about what we could do. Um, we weren't interested really
02:31:45 do. Um, we weren't interested really more interested in the party. So, then we traveled back to the party and it wasn't spoken about again that evening.
02:31:49 evening. Not that evening. No. I think you say at paragraph 4.26 to six of your statement that a couple of days later you were encouraged back to the
02:32:04 later you were encouraged back to the shop by Carlos Iraqi to assess whether it could indeed be attacked. Yeah. Is that right? Do you remember that conversation? I remember remember being in in the car doing it. Yeah. Um you you say you and another Socialist Party activist went in the car with Saraki.
02:32:14 Saraki. Yeah.
02:32:17 Yeah. Again, without naming them, just for the moment.
02:32:17 moment. Same one in the paper. Same one um that you gave me before. J
02:32:31 Same one um that you gave me before. J I think it was. Yeah. Okay. Um, why did you even get in the car, go to the shop again with Carlos Iraqi if this is not what you were contemplating doing? If you've tried to organize left-wing groups or anti-fascist groups, getting active, enthusiastic people is a really hard thing to do. We had a really
02:32:42 hard thing to do. We had a really enthusiastic, keen young man wanting to help and get involved. So, you you want to nurture that. You want to go with that. So, we didn't want to knock it on the heads there and then. We wanted to
02:32:57 the heads there and then. We wanted to encourage his enthusiasm, but then you'd use your your political persuasion at the in that conversation to sort of
02:33:05 the in that conversation to sort of direct him that isn't really what we do. We love your enthusiasm. Let's do more exciting things. This isn't the thing that we do. This isn't what uh we believe in. So, it was it was it was to keep him on board enthusiasm board, but to to challenge him politically about why it wasn't what we did. So you spent
02:33:16 why it wasn't what we did. So you spent what the journey there in the car both? Yeah, it was only from his flat around a corner so it wasn't particularly long. Um and you spent that journey trying to persuade him not to do it.
02:33:29 persuade him not to do it. Yeah. Being being nice to him but persuading him this is not what we do. What was his response? I think after it's only sort of five or 10 minute journey after after him coming up with this enthusiastic plan. I think
02:33:40 up with this enthusiastic plan. I think once he realizes this it's not going to happen. This isn't what he's going to do.
02:33:43 do. I think he realized it wasn't wasn't going to happen.
02:33:51 going to happen. Were you surprised to even come up with the idea in the first place given what all of what you've said both in your statement and here today that this preemptive offensive attacking type of violence simply wasn't any part of what any of the groups including no platform
02:34:06 any of the groups including no platform completely out of the blue of anything that we had anyone we just don't do this in this country we don't go around pet it's completely out the blue but he had banged on before as part of his legend about how he was linked to the the red brigades in Italy. So I wasn't entirely surprised sort of thing that he might
02:34:17 surprised sort of thing that he might have brought up given how he tried to present his background. But yeah, it was out of the blue of people in our political circle. Did you think it was odd? Absolutely.
02:34:32 Uh paragraph 4.27 27 of your statement, you point out that uh Carlos Iraqi accepts he didn't report you as having been the one to suggest this course of action and suggests that he surely would have done uh if it was true uh to
02:34:49 have done uh if it was true uh to justify his spying on you. Is that does that remain your view? Well, isn't that the whole point this special demonstration squad to prevent public disorder? I mean, there's no bigger event of public disorder than someone petri bombing a charity shop. You know, every single minute
02:35:08 You know, every single minute conversation that we had, he reported in these really boring reports. He had to meet me twice a week. Every single conversation is reported. The one conversation he doesn't report is this one.
02:35:13 one. And you say that's because it simply wasn't true. It simply wasn't true. And I suspect it it it had been exposed. Well, he him and his boss would have been exposed. Do you have any explanation for why he
02:35:30 Do you have any explanation for why he would have suggested and pursued such an idea with you and your group? Absolutely. If he was well aware of this type of tactic forming no part of your Well, I mean his boss was it was it Paul Lambert his boss? This is the one. Oh yeah, this is the one that got the
02:35:42 yeah, this is the one that got the animal rights activist to petrol bomb uh dagenom um dehams, you know. So quite clearly Carlo was running out of ways to to catch us because we weren't criminals. We were doing nothing wrong. He had to justify his fantastic
02:35:56 He had to justify his fantastic placement, the great time he was having. I suspect his boss said to him, "Well, this worked with me. Try this out." I think it was a standard practice that the SDS carried out and he he was told to try it out by his boss and it failed.
02:36:07 to try it out by his boss and it failed. Do you have any further comment on this particular allegation made by him that it was you who initiated this idea and these conversations? I it's it's it's just how how am I going to know about a
02:36:22 just how how am I going to know about a charity shop forefront for a fascist? I knew nothing about it. No anti-fascist ever in this country has ever done this. Why am I going to pluck it out of the air and throw it into into the pot of things we're going to do?
02:36:35 things we're going to do? Thank you. Um I'd like to move on then please um to report at uh MPS 0029 382 and tab B 108 sir of your bundle.
02:36:52 This is a report dated the 16th of October 2003 and it records that uh you were organizing um the stewards for this particular event as you were not worried about being involved in any criminal
02:37:06 about being involved in any criminal activities on the day and can therefore take a higher profile. If we look um also then at um report at
02:37:19 I think is that what did I say? 07.
02:37:26 Um and if uh if we also go please to report MPS 0029382 at tab B 108
02:37:38 sorry there we go. Sorry that's the one. So I'm sorry I read the wrong quote. Um, since becoming a teacher, he has become, that's you, has become reluctant to engage personally in disorder or criminality. And then, sorry, back to the next one, 0077359
02:37:56 the next one, 0077359 at tab B98. Dan Gilman is organizing the stewards as he is not worried about being involved in any criminal activities on the day and can therefore take a higher profile.
02:38:07 take a higher profile. Um there is further reporting about by Carlos Saraki about you remaining a committed anti-fascist but toning down the type of activity that you were becoming involved in because of your
02:38:19 becoming involved in because of your current employment that is that you had become a teacher and uh sometimes from because of pressure from your partner at the time. Um, do you agree with these
02:38:33 Um, do you agree with these characterizations of your outlook at the time?
02:38:40 time? I think um, part of that is is just rubbish. My partner has never never been anything but committed like me to anti-fascist struggle. That's just that and he repeatedly makes negative comments about my partner throughout this report. What's that got to do with
02:38:51 this report. What's that got to do with public disorder? I've got no idea. That 100% is just wrong. He talks here about um about me no longer wanting to be a criminal, but I've never wanted to be a criminal. Never been committed to disorder and
02:39:03 Never been committed to disorder and criminality. Never at any point. That is why I'm an anti-fascist because you want to stop criminality and disorder. So definitely 100% I didn't stop being a criminal cuz I became a teacher. But
02:39:16 criminal cuz I became a teacher. But when we go back to talk about the the away team, you make a judgment in in protests and demonstrations about what sort of risk you can take when you're a young person and you haven't got a family and you haven't got commitments.
02:39:27 family and you haven't got commitments. You can make a bigger risk to the labor movement. You know, you can go on strike for longer. You can put yourself in the front of a demonstration. As you get
02:39:39 front of a demonstration. As you get older and you got responsibilities and you've got a job where the minute you get a warning, you're going to get sacked. You you can take less risk. So 100% I now take less risks and and I let the movement down because of that.
02:39:50 the movement down because of that. Definitely don't stop being a criminal because I never was. Um if you could just remember to slow down slightly. Um so becoming a teacher did precipitate some kind of change in
02:40:03 did precipitate some kind of change in attitude or behavior in relation to your activism. But you say that wasn't to do
02:40:14 activism. But you say that wasn't to do with criminality or disorder or violence in any way. It was um merely about the level of commitment and the types of risks you were taking. Absolutely. Yes. Um
02:40:27 so this reporting of the nature that clearly infers you had been willing and and did indeed engage in disorder, violence, and criminality in the past by Carlos Saraki is simply more untrue reporting about you. Absolutely. It's it's it's his
02:40:40 Absolutely. It's it's it's his misinterpretation of why I was committed to the labor movement, anti-fascism. Um, you've mentioned that you moved away from the more active anti-fascist
02:40:52 from the more active anti-fascist anti-fascist stewarding. Um, I think in paragraphs 4.14 and 4.15 of your statement, you say that was by around 2003.
02:41:03 2003. Had you given up being chief steward um earlier in 2002? Um I can't remember exactly but that sounds about right for no platform. Yes. Yes.
02:41:15 Yes. Yes. Um there's a report certainly we probably don't need to bring it up but it's MPS0806.
02:41:21 It's at tab B75. Sarah for your bundle. It's dated the 11th of February 2002 which refers to you no longer acting as chief steward to NP citing domestic and work pressures as the reasons for
02:41:36 work pressures as the reasons for standing down. Is that report accurate? Did you stand down due to domestic and work pressures? Not domestic pressures. I think again that's a incorrect from Carlo. Always had support from my family, but definitely I couldn't take the kind of risks I could take as a younger man.
02:41:50 risks I could take as a younger man. The that report also states Carlo Ner will act as chief steward for the SP section. We know of course that Carlo Ner is a reference to Carlos Saraki. Um, is that an indication of his standing
02:42:03 is that an indication of his standing and influence within the Social Party at that time? Yeah, I mean by by then he'd been around for two or three years, I think, hadn't he? So, um, there was more collective
02:42:14 he? So, um, there was more collective trust in him to take a a leading role. Yes.
02:42:16 Yes. And I think you you accept that you nevertheless continued to do some stewarding after 2003, albeit maybe much less.
02:42:24 less. Yeah. I mean, is that right? Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I I still I still steward. I'm still active. I still participate in anti-fascism. I mean, two weeks ago they were going to march down White Chapel High Street. We stopped him again.
02:42:40 stopped him again. Um, were you made chief steward of the Socialist Party again in August 2005? Do you remember? I can't remember to be honest. I can take you to the report. It's MPS 0062785
02:42:51 tab B136 of the bundle. that's dated the 1st of August 2005 and says Dan Gilman a prominent member of the Socialist Party and no platform has been officially made the chief
02:43:07 has been officially made the chief steward for the SP at all demonstrations and actions attended by the party. Does that sound right? I could probably ask Hannah at the back. She'd know but um yes I mean so anti-war demonstrations I was active in. I don't think I'd call myself chief steward but I was an active steward still. Yes,
02:43:21 I was an active steward still. Yes, there's there's um certainly you agreed to help steward a stop the war demonstration on the 24th of September 2005. I think the report just for your reference is MPS 0064
02:43:32 reference is MPS 0064 059 tab B 138 of your bundle sir um you'd accept that that's accurate. You did help with
02:43:44 did help with Absolutely. that you know the these if it's a to stop the war demonstrations these you know these are massive demonstrations completely legal. I don't get why he's bothering to make reports on them.
02:43:58 on them. Yeah. Um at paragraphs uh 4.16 and 4.19 of your statement, you comment on a document MPS um 0748418 at um it will be sir tab B 100 of your uh bundle. It's not yet published so we
02:44:20 uh bundle. It's not yet published so we can't bring it up on screen but this is it's accepted a um a written operation review of Carlos Saraki's deployment written by HN9 um after Carlos Saraki had been deployed for three years it was a thirdyear anniversary report and I think you've seen it you comment on it in your
02:44:31 seen it you comment on it in your witness statement and at page six it reports there is little doubt that the
02:44:42 reports there is little doubt that the effective provision vision of preemptive intelligence has caused the withdrawal of Dan Gilman the leading light and motivator of no platform from active participation in violent disorder. Now at 4.19 of your statement, you say
02:44:54 at 4.19 of your statement, you say attempts to suggest in some way that their that is the UCO deployment's cost was justified in that their spying in
02:45:09 was justified in that their spying in some ways have forced criminals like me out of public disorder is a cooked up attempt by the SDS to justify their ineffective and unjustified placement. Um, you say your political priorities had shifted away from anti-fascist
02:45:20 had shifted away from anti-fascist stewarding for political, personal, and economic reasons as you've just told us. Is that right? Yes.
02:45:29 Yes. And it had nothing to do with an effective provision of preemptive intelligence. It would seem to be that SDS handlers were desperately attempting to legitimize a program that was
02:45:43 to legitimize a program that was delivering nothing to keep the public any safer, yet doing a lot to abuse them.
02:45:44 them. Um,
02:45:48 Um, you don't believe you were forced out of activism by SDS reporting? I would like to think I am still active. I'm still a trade union rep. Um, I was
02:46:00 I'm still a trade union rep. Um, I was in White Chapel High Road two weeks ago. Um, nothing that Carlo has done has altered my political views and perspectives and activism. It's just different sort of activism. Um, you would say this is effectively a self-serving claim by Carlos Saraki and HN9.
02:46:13 HN9. Absolutely. He was he was still supposed to spy on me twice a week at the end of his placement. He's got to justify this fantastic placement. Yeah, he's just just big up his role.
02:46:28 just big up his role. Do you have any further comment on the reference there to your withdrawal quote from active participation in violent disorder?
02:46:31 disorder? I was never involved in violent disorder.
02:46:36 disorder. Thank you. Um I want to move on now to a number of just discreet um topics. Um the first is your phone. Um, you've made mention a number of times that your
02:46:48 mention a number of times that your about your concerns that your phone was being monitored or bugged or intercepted. Is that right?
02:47:01 Is that right? Um, you say that through his cover work as a locksmith, Carlos Saraki had keys to all leading socialist party member activists in no platforms houses. Yes.
02:47:04 Yes. You mentioned that because you believe that's how he gained access to Absolutely. him and whoever he was passing the keys on to. Yes.
02:47:15 passing the keys on to. Yes. Um there are various uh reports again we don't need to bring them up on screen but for reference MPS treble07247
02:47:30 but for reference MPS treble07247 at tab B65 of the bundle MPS treble06929 at tab 62 of the bundle and MPS treble07565 at tab B71 of the bundle or report either yours or that of your partner partner's phone number um in those
02:47:47 partner's phone number um in those reports. Um there are a couple more we don't need to go to. Um you object to that reporting. Abs.
02:47:59 that reporting. Abs. Absolutely. What what what on earth has my phone number or my partner's phone number got to do with defending the public from public disorder? It's complete abuse of our human and democratic rights. Doesn't surprise me. What? What on earth has my family or my wife got to do with Carly's placement
02:48:13 wife got to do with Carly's placement that he's publishing her phone number to a bunch of misogynistic sexist policemen? So, you say of no relevance and you rely on that reporting as evidence to infer your phone was indeed being monitored? Well, I mean, I can't see why else he would put it on there.
02:48:28 would put it on there. Thank you. Um, I'd like to look at some of the nature of his reporting personally upon you and have your comment on it, please. Um, again, I don't think we need to bring it up, but MPS64264
02:48:45 at tab 139, sir, of the bundle. Dan Gilman is to become a father. His partner, Privacy, is expecting their first child in April 2006. and then MPS05272
02:49:00 at tab B141 of the bundle. Um Dan Gilman, the main socialist party anti-fascist organizer is fully into expectant father mode. His partner privacy is expecting their first child in April. As a result, Gilman is not
02:49:14 in April. As a result, Gilman is not involving himself in any activities or planning and is unlikely to do so for the foreseeable future. Gilman is still carrying out his union activism in the
02:49:25 carrying out his union activism in the NUT but is limiting his involvement to this area. Um, how do you feel seeing that type of personal reporting on you and your partner?
02:49:40 How would you feel this? What what on earth has my family, my kids got to do with public disorder? You think that sort of reporting was completely unjustified? Absolutely. I mean, absolutely unjustified. I mean, that luckily my
02:49:51 unjustified. I mean, that luckily my kids aren't here, but I mean the Yeah, that that's just straightforward abuse of my human rights and my family's human rights.
02:49:59 rights. Um, MPS treble07570 at tab B72. Again, we don't need to bring it up, but that contained
02:50:11 bring it up, but that contained reporting on your new job and MPS treble06070 at tab B38 of the bundle recorded reporting on your house move. Um, do you have any comment on reporting of that
02:50:23 have any comment on reporting of that type of personal information about you? I could just repeat the point. What has that got to do with a huge amount of
02:50:34 that got to do with a huge amount of public money being spent to report on my house and my jobs? Uh, MPS treble08363 at tab B50 V77,
02:50:46 at tab B50 V77, excuse me, of the bundle. Gilbin is too much of an egoist for his own good and cannot let go of the NP reigns and MPS treble08365
02:50:57 tab B78 of the bundle a report concerning being asked to do a BBC documentary and further reference to your ego when that request was turned down. What comment do you have on that
02:51:09 down. What comment do you have on that kind of language being used in reporting commenting in particular on your ego? matter what other people think about me and my ego. But I mean I mean can you can you imagine what it's like to live
02:51:23 can you imagine what it's like to live your life knowing that there is someone stood next to you who you trust writing these things down day in day out about your character and your personality.
02:51:35 personality. Um can I ask you please about Peter Francis HN43? You say it paragraph 5.1 of your statement. We can see from reports that that you knew him.
02:51:46 that you knew him. Um he wasn't a friend of yours. Is that right?
02:51:46 right? No.
02:51:50 No. Um what recollection do you have of him and your interactions with him? Only failure that he was at similar um events that I was at mostly in South London.
02:51:56 London. Um nothing no further than that. No.
02:52:02 No. Um can I ask you then about Mark Jenner HN15?
02:52:06 HN15? Do you have any recollection um of him? Was was he a friend? No. When I read his documents, we we were at similar events. There were some building joint size committee events
02:52:17 building joint size committee events that we were at together. Um very very vague recollection. Um thank you. Can I ask you then about your personal relationship with Carlos Saraki?
02:52:24 Saraki? Yeah.
02:52:31 Yeah. Um you say at paragraph 5.1, both you and your partner were very close friends of Carlos Sarakis from 1999 to 2005. The friendship went beyond political ties. He was a regular friend. You attended many social events such as
02:52:45 attended many social events such as parties with him. And he was also the partner of a very good friend and colleague of yours, Donna. Is that right?
02:52:49 right? Yeah.
02:52:53 Yeah. Um Donna wasn't an activist, was she? No.
02:52:59 No. Um you introduced um Carlos Saraki to Donna. Is that right? With my regret. Yes, I did. Yeah. Um, Carlos Saraki suggests that you encouraged them to quote get together. Is that accurate?
02:53:10 Is that accurate? Absolutely. Um, you say that he started a sexual relationship with Donna quickly and then soon moved in with her and you think
02:53:24 soon moved in with her and you think that Carlos Saraki used the relationship with Donna to get close to you and your wife. Is that right? Absolutely. You say in your statement at paragraph 5.3 that Carlos Raki had three intimate relationships with women that knew you,
02:53:39 relationships with women that knew you, although Donna was a closer friend than the other two. Is that right? Yeah.
02:53:46 Yeah. Um, you mentioned that Saraki only told the third woman who he really was, and you think the only importance of the first two relationships was as part of his undercover deployment. In other words, to get close to and report upon you and your fellow activists. Absolutely.
02:54:02 Absolutely. Um, h how did you feel about all of that when you first found out that Carlos Saraki was an undercover police officer?
02:54:15 Um, it's more it's more when I read how it impacted on Donna's life. Yeah. Okay. How how do you feel about it now? I
02:54:21 now? I feel guilty, responsible. Um, you mention at 4.34 of your
02:54:36 Um, you mention at 4.34 of your statement that his departure, the nature and manner of it, manner of it had a massive impact on your best friend, Donna.
02:54:37 Donna. Yeah.
02:54:46 Yeah. And that negative emotional, personal, mental impact on her has had an impact on your sense of culpability for the abuse she suffered at his hands. Yeah.
02:54:50 Yeah. had she not been my friend, she wouldn't have been sexually and emotionally abused by Kyla. And you say at 5.7, I'm forever conscious of the fact that had Donna not been my friend, as you've just said, she would never have suffered the emotional and sexual abuse she did from Carlo as
02:55:05 and sexual abuse she did from Carlo as part of his deceitful pres pretense to be my friend. This uneasy feeling and doubt is a constant burden I carry as a result of my friendship with a police spy and has had an ongoing um impact on my ability to form
02:55:23 um impact on my ability to form friendships and have a level of trust in and to be trusted by people who would otherwise be friends. Is that right? Absolutely. Do you still feel like that today?
02:55:34 Do you still feel like that today? Absolutely. I mean I I work in a tricky job in a tricky part of East London. You would depend on people around you to look after you. This is someone I thought would looked after me.
02:55:39 after me. He didn't. You feel it to be a huge betrayal of trust?
02:55:43 trust? Absolutely. Um, you say that what you found most unsettling is the way that he abused your friends and family. Yeah.
02:55:51 Yeah. Um,
02:55:53 Um, you say that that discovering being spied upon has had no impact on your political beliefs or actions, but it has had an impact on any faith I had in the integrity of the police or its
02:56:06 integrity of the police or its commitment to keep families like mine safe. Do you still feel like that? Absolutely. If I if I hadn't in the first place, yes, it has disappeared. I mean, as an effing activist, you always suspicious suspect that you might be
02:56:17 suspicious suspect that you might be spied upon. It's not a big surprise to you, but but your friends and family who are described as it collateral intrusions. Yeah. Has a big a big impact on me.
02:56:31 Yeah. Has a big a big impact on me. Um, as you've said, for four years, you thought he was one of your closest friends. You trusted him with your physical and emotional safety and that of your friends and family, including at
02:56:46 of your friends and family, including at anti-fascist events where violence was a prospect. and the doubt in how much you can rely on others continues to be there. Is there anything else you'd like to say about how you felt when you found out that Carlos Saraki was a UCO or
02:56:59 out that Carlos Saraki was a UCO or about how you feel now about the impact that that's had on your life and your friends and family? Um I think I can't say it today better than I already my witness statement. What has become clear is he's the tip of an iceberg, isn't he? Now he is the one
02:57:14 an iceberg, isn't he? Now he is the one copper that I know. Well, him and Peter and Mark.
02:57:16 and Mark. So to what comes out of today with Lois this morning and various things, this is tip of an iceberg. There are 101 other state agencies that have been involved
02:57:27 state agencies that have been involved in my life or my family's life that just this inquiry needs to expose. Thank you, Mr. Gilman. Those are all the questions I have for you, but I understand that you wish to make a short statement to the inquiry which you've
02:57:39 statement to the inquiry which you've prepared earlier. If you'd still like to do that, please do so now. I do. If that's all right, of course. Should be 4 minutes. I've practiced it. Thank you. So, if you don't mind, I'll sit down.
02:57:47 sit down. Sure.
02:57:50 Sure. Um, I wanted to say it because I think I've answered all your questions and I felt there was a a direction they kind of went, the direction was to try and present
02:57:58 present me and others as a bunch of thugs. And the more that we were seen as a bunch of thugs,
02:58:03 thugs, the more you could justify the the social and uh sexual abuse of young women, the spying on us. They're using dead children's identities, the blacklisting of us. Um and they're
02:58:19 blacklisting of us. Um and they're spying on victims of racial abuse rather than protecting them. Um and yet I am proud of what we've done. I'm proud of all the things we talked about today. tries to explain we've never chosen violence, never chosen
02:58:32 never chosen violence, never chosen criminality. It's always been forced upon us by the fascists when we all 10,000 people went on to host street in Walters Day recently. We didn't choose violence. We didn't
02:58:44 We didn't choose violence. We didn't choose criminality, but every single one of us were breaking a public order uh law. Every single one of us was prepared to put our body in the way of a fascist boot or a fascist fist. That's that's no platform. That's anti-fascism.
02:58:55 platform. That's anti-fascism. But when you stand there, the fascists don't turn up. They disappear into the ether. Again, I think I said today that I've always defended democracy. I've not firebombed it like Carlo tried to make
02:59:14 firebombed it like Carlo tried to make us do. Um, it's a different democracy to what Carlo believes in. It's democracy where we defend families of color who want to go out on the streets rather than defending the fascists when they go step up and down uh White Hall. Um, it's a democracy where we arrest the
02:59:26 a democracy where we arrest the fascists. We don't arrest a thousand old ladies who are wearing Palestine action t-shirts.
02:59:30 t-shirts. I'm a history teacher and I teach a thousand years of most of British history. Most of it the kids find a bit annoying and it's a bit embarrassing. Nothing much I'm proud of, but I am
02:59:42 Nothing much I'm proud of, but I am proud that this country's got a proud history of standing up to fascism. I think I'm a small part of that. No platform didn't achieve much, but we had a go. We picked out a baton. And if I see my granddads, I can say, "Well, I did my bit." I'm not sure
02:59:57 "Well, I did my bit." I'm not sure Carlo, Mark, and Peter can say the same. No pass around. [Applause]
03:00:15 [Applause] Thank you, Mr. Gilman. Um, sir, I'm told there are no rule 10. Um, I don't know whether there's any re-examination. Could I have two minutes?
03:00:31 Could I have two minutes? Of course. Um before you do, may I just raise one question? Um is there anybody here uh representing Donna Mlan today? Yes. Um
03:00:36 Yes. Um because I know of her personal uh circumstances and that may inhibit her from um participating in the inquiry. Um, may I ask first of all whether you
03:00:51 may I ask first of all whether you anticipate that she will be able to participate? I think
03:00:57 I think would you like to come forwards and and so we can hear what you say. I'm sorry to put you on the spot without notice, but um
03:01:10 come come and uh stand in front of the microphone there if you would please. Uh I think it's an ongoing conversation that my colleagues are having with her. Yes.
03:01:17 Yes. Um so I'm not entirely sure at the moment.
03:01:20 moment. Given the fact that it is possible for reasons that if they were to occur, I would entirely understand that she might not. Um would there be any objection to my asking this witness um what he can
03:01:38 my asking this witness um what he can say about the impact of events upon her? Um
03:01:40 Um would you mind if I just Of course. If you would like to reflect upon that and and perhaps take instructions, please do. Okay. Thank you. Um then what I propose that we do is I will ask you to do that. Um
03:01:56 will ask you to do that. Um do you want to reexamine before that? I've got no re-examination. You have no re-examination. Oh, sorry. I should correct that. I just wanted a few moments to consider whether I have any further questions. I don't think there are but
03:02:08 think there are but in in which case let me rise for 5 minutes uh to let everybody reach a conclusion to to my questions and your view. Thank you sir. All right.
03:12:38 attention.
03:12:53 All right.
03:13:04 Mr. G, I understand you have one question in reexam. It is there a couple questions on one one minor topic. Yes,
03:13:17 Yes, I hope so. So, I'm referring to A4 in your bundle and Mr. Gilman, it's u an exhibit you produced to your witness statement. Uh you brought up I think it's exhibit DG3.
03:13:24 It's an entry.
03:13:32 If you can have a look at it, tell me what what it is. Do you have it right now?
03:13:33 now? DG3.
03:13:34 DG3. DG3.
03:13:35 DG3. Can you explain what it is? It's an entry uh in consulting association file. The entry in relation to your Blacklist. Okay. Yeah. 2nd of December 2011.
03:13:51 Blacklist file. Yeah. Um you make reference to it to paragraph 1.5
03:13:55 1.5 statement. Um, you were asked questions about the awaiting and your evidence was that that wasn't a phrase that was used in a formal way. Um, was that something that you believe was used by the SCS officers?
03:14:11 was used by the SCS officers? Yeah, they they use it a lot in their reports, don't they? Yeah, they do. So in answer to the question as to why you
03:14:22 in answer to the question as to why you believed that the police were supplying information to the uh consulting association this entry which reads 1998 November in mid November 1999 page five.
03:14:33 page five. Can you just tell them page five? Oh it's page five. So I think you were in the wrong one. [Music]
03:14:43 [Music] I see it. Do you have that to hand? Yeah. Apprehend observed along with redacted on way to demonstrate against BNP laying grief that sent it out from remembrance Sunday. Demonstration was organized by the anti-Nazi league also involved see
03:14:57 anti-Nazi league also involved see reference all three. This is understood to be to be to do with quote the socialist party away teams that do you see. Y
03:15:13 see. Y is it your understanding that that would have been obtained by the police and then passed on to a consulting association? Yes. No one else I mean we we wouldn't refer to ourselves as the way team no builder words. So it's definitely a
03:15:24 builder words. So it's definitely a phrase that would have been used by the police to label us with. So that means that that description has come from the police. Yes. And that was you say is
03:15:35 police. Yes. And that was you say is that your evidence that that was used to blacklist you in terms of any future employment or employment? Absolutely. So I mean I mean it's it's it's gone to court hasn't been inquiries that the blacklist has been used because I'm not a builder. It's not cost me tens of thousands of pounds but it has
03:15:50 of thousands of pounds but it has similar blacklist cost people like Dave who wasn't allowed to speak today tens of thousands of pounds. And definitely these blacklists have had an impact on me. the blacklists that exist on me
03:16:01 me. the blacklists that exist on me alongside this one I think was not yet seen.
03:16:02 seen. Thank you. That's
03:16:16 May I ask one question arising out of that topic? Of course. First if I may. Um
03:16:18 Um you have um exhibited your witness
03:16:32 you have um exhibited your witness statement very helpfully the um answers that you got when when you were asking what information had been reported by you uh to the consulting association blacklist and there was a a raft of
03:16:43 blacklist and there was a a raft of reports spanning about a decade. Um, all of those reports, with one possible exception, appear to be those by ordinary police officers on duty attending events that you personally attended.
03:16:53 attended. Yeah. Um
03:16:55 Yeah. Um it
03:17:01 one of the things I have to consider in due course is whether SDS reporting which would not fit into that category um either was the cause of that sort of reporting occurring
03:17:12 reporting occurring or
03:17:14 or was independently being reported um and had it been one would have expected that the uh the body that um
03:17:31 expected that the uh the body that um turned up these reports for you would have and told you that they had got them. Um
03:17:34 them. Um one possibility I have to consider is whether or not SDS reporting prompted reporting of events by ordinary police officers in which you participated.
03:17:48 officers in which you participated. and whether that is the route by which um blacklisting occurred in your case. Have you any comment on that? Yeah, it's an interesting point, isn't it? Cuz I mean from all those like you say
03:18:00 mean from all those like you say statements from you presuming you know you beat coppers on the street none of them appear on my blacklist but the one that appears clearly has come from somewhere else not from the building industry
03:18:13 industry and we've heard today about this red desk and we've heard about special branch we've heard about MI5 and the SDS. So I don't know which one of those it is but I think you're right. I think I think the point is correct that this isn't from a standard beat copper. This
03:18:28 isn't from a standard beat copper. This is from a different state agency. Yeah. Okay.
03:18:38 Nothing further. Nothing further from that. Thank you, sir. No. Um I asked whether I should ask this witness about Donna Mlan. I have been
03:18:54 witness about Donna Mlan. I have been told that uh she hopes to be able to um provide uh uh some evidence to the inquiry and so long as that hope remains, I'm not going to preempt her by asking others to comment about her. Thank you very much for attending the
03:19:06 Thank you very much for attending the inquiry to give evidence. It is always of great assistance to me to hear from people who have participated in the
03:19:19 people who have participated in the events that I've seen on paper and can describe them from their own recollection. I'm very grateful to you for doing so. Even if it's too fast, even if it's too fast, don't worry about that.
03:19:31 don't worry about that. Thank you very much indeed. Grateful to you.
03:19:31 you. Thank you. Thanks.
03:19:39 Thanks. Uh we will resume on Monday at 10 as usual.
03:19:39 usual. Thank you very much.