Lois Austin testifies about her anti-racist activism with Youth Against Racism in Europe (YRE) and Militant Labour in the 1980s-90s, particularly campaigning against the BNP in Welling. She describes being spied on by undercover officers Peter Francis (HN43) and Carlo Neri (HN104), and details police violence at demonstrations including Welling and Earl's Court where she was targeted and hospitalized.
00:29:24 Good morning. Uh today's proceedings are going to be broadcast uh with a 10-minute delay after uh the event being described. Uh those with um electronic devices may use them to report what they
00:29:42 devices may use them to report what they have heard in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. Devices may not be used for recording or photography. May the witness be sworn, please.
00:29:54 Repeat after me. I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth
00:30:06 shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth
00:30:14 I understand that it is possible that you may need a break in the middle of your evidence other than the one that we normally have and that a method has been devised for you to indicate Please don't hesitate [laughter] to do so.
00:30:25 so. I won't. Thank you. Yes.
00:30:27 Yes. Good morning. Good morning. Please, can you state your full name? Lois Amelia Austin. And you gave a witness statement to this inquiry dated the 8th of April, 2025.
00:30:42 inquiry dated the 8th of April, 2025. Please, could we have up on screen UCPI 37774?
00:30:53 Do you recognize that as your witness statement? Yes.
00:31:00 Yes. It consists of 78 pages that are signed and dated by you on the last page. Can you confirm that the detail and the contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes, I can confirm that. That will stand as your written evidence of the inquiry.
00:31:14 of the inquiry. Uh the witness statement addresses your political life that uh you now understand has reported on by an undercover officer, namely HN43 Peter Francis. Um and is it right that you
00:31:27 Francis. Um and is it right that you knew him in his cover identity as Peter Johnson?
00:31:29 Johnson? Um
00:31:34 Um I think actually I knew him more as Peter Daly. Peter Daily. Um yeah. Yeah. Did you also know him as Peter Black at all? Um, I think so. I think I think it was
00:31:50 was probably interchangeable at the time. He was known as Peter Black, Peter Daly, um,
00:31:52 um, or or Peter really. Just Peter on occasions. Yeah. Is it right that that wasn't unusual in the the the political groups you were
00:32:04 the the the political groups you were moving in at the time for people to have different names? Um,
00:32:12 Um, not really. I don't really um I didn't really put much store on it to be honest. I just knew him as Peter. Peter Dailyaly mainly and that he was there at events that I was organizing involved
00:32:23 events that I was organizing involved with quite often in the background. Um, and yeah, and that's what that's what I remember. Okay. Um, we also know that
00:32:39 remember. Okay. Um, we also know that you were reported on by HM104 Car Carlos Saraki. Um, did you know him as Carlo Neri?
00:32:40 Neri? Yes.
00:32:41 Yes. Did you know him by any other name? No, I just knew him uh as Carlo Neri. Um,
00:32:52 Um, there is a cipher list in front of you. So, some of the people that we'll be talking about today do have uh ciphers. So, we'll be careful about names that [clears throat] uh you might wish to comment on. I'll ask you some questions
00:33:07 comment on. I'll ask you some questions about your witness statement and go into detail in in particular parts. Firstly, I'd like to start off with your background. Okay.
00:33:15 Okay. Um I understand that you came to be involved in the field of uh social justice and anti-racism activity from a young age. Yeah.
00:33:24 Yeah. Is it right that uh you grew up and went to school in Welling? Yeah. So, I uh grew up in Welling. I went to school in Welling. The the um the maps and the footage that we've seen is very familiar to me. I literally do
00:33:40 is very familiar to me. I literally do know it uh like the back of my hand. Um and I uh was politically active really from the age of around 14 or 15. Um my
00:33:57 from the age of around 14 or 15. Um my sister and I uh were involved in setting up the lab well getting involved with and then organizing and leading the Beexley Heath Labor Party young socialists which encompassed all of that the area of Beexley Welling Sikka um and and in fact my sister was younger than me. She actually wasn't really
00:34:14 than me. She actually wasn't really allowed to join. She just used to come along. She was about 12 or 13. So um from a very young age uh we were involved in all sorts of political activism like anti-apartite CND. I remember going on big demonstrations for
00:34:35 remember going on big demonstrations for uh anti-apartite demonstrations. So yeah from a very young age and I come from a political family. My mom and dad were socialists. My mom's family have a strong labor movement tradition. And is that what influenced you in your own politics then going forward? Yes it did. It did influence me and um I was particularly influenced like many
00:34:46 was particularly influenced like many many young people by the minor strike in 1984 1985 and seeing those the scenes on the television of the way the miners were treated the terrible biased
00:34:59 were treated the terrible biased reporting the police brutality that they suffered then I uh I I I in in fact I think at the age of about 15 I joined everything that I possibly could. I
00:35:14 everything that I possibly could. I would have joined the women at Green and Common if my parents had allowed me to go. So, we literally, my sister and I wrote off to join everything that we could, but it was members of the Labour Party Young Socialists that we met in Beexley Heath Shopping Center because um they were petitioning against um
00:35:26 they were petitioning against um Margaret Thatcher's YTS conscription and we signed the petition and that's how we
00:35:38 we signed the petition and that's how we got we got actively involved. And around 1985, did you help to organize the national school student strike in relation to the YTS? Yes, I did. And um I was on national TV. Uh I was interviewed by Frank Bof. I don't know if people remember Frank Bof.
00:35:49 don't know if people remember Frank Bof. And um on Breakfast TV and then I was on a radio one interview by Janice Long. Um
00:36:00 a radio one interview by Janice Long. Um and I think we organized I think we said at the time around a quarter of a million young people who organi came out on protests and rallies and demonstrations um against the YTS becoming a scre a
00:36:16 um against the YTS becoming a scre a compulsory scheme. Yeah. Around 198687 um did you take up some political positions in the groups that you were involved with? Um the the Labour Party Young socialists uh regional committee. Were you on that?
00:36:28 Were you on that? Yeah. So, I was on the London Labor Party Young Socialist Regional Committee. Um I was I think just after that
00:36:36 that I was on the um NEC youth committee of the Labor Party. So I was on the youth committee NEC youth committee of the Labour Party with people like Larry
00:36:47 Labour Party with people like Larry Witty who was the national secretary of the Labour Party at the time, general secretaries of trade unions. Um, yeah. So, I was I was the the the youth representative on the NEC youth subcommittee.
00:37:04 subcommittee. I'd like to ask you about the British National Party and their presence in Welling. So, in 1987,
00:37:11 in 1987, what was going on in Welling in relation to the BMP around that time? So, the British National Party moved into Welling in 1987. Um, you know, I have been asked in in conversations why did they choose
00:37:29 conversations why did they choose Welling? Um, and I think it's because there was a little bit of history of far-right activity in that part of Southeast London. I can remember in 1981 a National Front demonstration that marched along the high street at the bottom of our turning and me and my friends were all on our bikes watching
00:37:50 friends were all on our bikes watching several hundred skin heads come marching through our area. Um, and I think that they thought that it was um, an area that would potentially be a good breeding ground for them because it's very white, very workingass. Um, and uh, and they moved in in 1987.
00:38:05 Um, and uh, and they moved in in 1987. As soon as they moved in and we became aware that these people that had supposedly set up this bookshop, it was never a bookshop. It was always a
00:38:16 never a bookshop. It was always a political headquarters. It was always, you know, they orchestrated their campaign of racism and violence from from their from from what was their headquarters. As soon as they moved in,
00:38:28 headquarters. As soon as they moved in, then the Beexy Heath Labour Party Young Socialist that I was a chair of, my sister was the secretary. We called a meeting of absolutely everybody that we could who we knew in the trade unions.
00:38:42 could who we knew in the trade unions. So, NPY, now go, the TNG, all the unions in the area that were active. There was a very vibrant labor movement um actually in in in that area. They used to call the East Wickham Ward, which you've seen East Wickham as an area on the map. They used to call that I think
00:38:53 the map. They used to call that I think they used to call call it Little Russia because there were so many trade unions and socialists that lived in the area. I remember Tony Ben coming to speak at my secondary school and stuff like that. We got everybody together, mainly labor
00:39:05 got everybody together, mainly labor movement activists. We got the we we contacted the Grinidge action committee against racist attacks, highly respected anti-racist organization in Greenidge
00:39:21 anti-racist organization in Greenidge that was that was organizing to protect and defend the community and also the Greenidge Commission for Racial Equality. I worked very we worked very well with them. very very good coalition that we was able to put together and we and we also sent fax faxes and fax
00:39:41 and we also sent fax faxes and fax messages to MPs that we thought would be supportive of our calls. So Tony Ben, I remember Jeremy Corbyn, I remember sending a message to Diane Abbott and asking her to come to the area and address one of our meetings. So, we did all of that work and that and that coalition, sorry to interrupt, the the um that was called
00:39:54 interrupt, the the um that was called the Greenwich and Beexley Labor Movement Campaign Against Racism and Fascism. Was it?
00:39:58 it? It was a long name. I think the longest name in labor movement history, but that's what we set up. Yeah. And it and it was deliberate
00:40:09 up. Yeah. And it and it was deliberate because we wanted to we wanted it to be about working the workingclass working people and the trade unions and that the trade unions were saying no to the BMP in their headquarters and actually getting the trade unions involved meant
00:40:24 getting the trade unions involved meant that we could then and I did this a very young age. We could go and speak at new meetings now go meetings. We could speak to the trades council and say, "Do you know that the BMP, an avowedly, openly
00:40:41 know that the BMP, an avowedly, openly fascist organization, has moved into our area? They are on a mainly residential street and all of us, it's incumbent upon all of us, particularly the trade unions, to try to get them out."
00:41:02 unions, to try to get them out." Was there a change uh uh in terms of the political activity in the area once the BMP had moved into Welling? Yes, there was and it was noticeable. Um, so the Greenidge Action Committee Against Racist Attacks and the Commission for Racial Equality, who I said we work really closely with, they they within a few years of them moving in, I think
00:41:15 few years of them moving in, I think they recorded that there'd been a 200% increase in racist attacks. Um, we were working with those organizations. For example, in the street opposite up one of the streets
00:41:26 street opposite up one of the streets off up U upper Wickham Lane. There was an Asian family who were being the children were being abused, graffiti on their walls, bricks through their windows, and we wor with them to
00:41:41 windows, and we wor with them to organize like um uh basically a rotor of people visiting them, going coming in and out of the house because we wanted the BMP to see that this was a family that had support, the whole of the community, black, white, and Asian. Um
00:41:56 community, black, white, and Asian. Um and we, you know, we made sure there was people in and out. Sometimes people had to stay there overnight because we wanted to send a signal that this is a family that's been protected, it's been defended by the community and you need to stay away. Um,
00:42:07 to stay away. Um, what were the police and the council doing in relation to that? Well, that's a very good question because I think in I've seen in some of the the the evidence that's been given to the inquiry that and I was trying to add it
00:42:23 inquiry that and I was trying to add it up, but I think we organized 27 lobbies of Beexsley Council. So the idea that there was just big demonstrations and that's all we did and we didn't try to
00:42:41 that's all we did and we didn't try to anything else is nonsense. So they moved in in 1987. So between 1987 and 1993, we organized a lobby of every full Beexley council meeting, we used councilors that were, you know, there were sort of very good active counselors, labor party councilors that would put motions down on the agenda. It was a Tory council asking the council to
00:42:59 was a Tory council asking the council to act to use the race relations act to use planning legislation to close the BMP headquarters down. So we would put motions on the on the council uh at the council meeting. We would present petitions and then we would lobby
00:43:12 petitions and then we would lobby outside. So we organized 27 I think in total lobbies of Beexley Council petitions motions and also if I can I know I'm going on a bit but if I can just say this if you stand on Welling Corner and you set up a stall and you
00:43:31 Corner and you set up a stall and you ask and you're 18 19 my sister was 16 um and then other young people that we got involved from our schools and our colleges and you're petitioning to close down the BMP headquarters. That's quite dangerous. That's not an easy thing to
00:43:44 dangerous. That's not an easy thing to do because C18 were active in the area who we [clears throat] know by C18 you mean combat combat 18 who we know are violent extremely racist fascist organization.
00:43:55 extremely racist fascist organization. Many of them have criminal records and have gone to prison for violence. We have we have I've never been convicted of violence. We were young. We're probably a bit naive. We stood on the street corners in that area and also
00:44:09 street corners in that area and also members of black and Asian community stood with us which is a very brave thing to do. We petitioned, we door knocked, we put thousands thousands of
00:44:26 knocked, we put thousands thousands of leaflets through letter boxes explaining to the community what we were doing and why we wanted them to get involved in our campaign. because it was about politically educating people about what was going on, raising the understanding and building a big community campaign. You say in your witness statement that
00:44:40 say in your witness statement that Beexsley Council, the police and the local press suggested that the the leftwing political groups were just as bad as the right-wing. What do you say about that? Well, at the time it was
00:44:52 about that? Well, at the time it was very, very, very upsetting because, as my mother-in-law says, we were on the side of the angels. We were doing the right thing. We were saying, "These people are dangerous. They're really
00:45:04 people are dangerous. They're really nasty. We need to get rid of them." And then we had the Beexley Tory Council saying, "The left need to shut up. The left need to stop going on about this. Why is the left giving the British National Party oxygen?" And we said
00:45:19 National Party oxygen?" And we said because there are racist attacks and as we know four young black men were murdered. Everybody knows a lot about Steven Lawrence and that's right that they know about Steven Lawrence and it
00:45:30 they know about Steven Lawrence and it was absolutely awful and horrific. And as I said I come from that area know many of the black families close to the Lawrence family and all of that. Um but there were three other young black men murdered as well. Roland Adams, Roit Dooall, Orville Blair. So, black men
00:45:43 Dooall, Orville Blair. So, black men were being murdered and I know why they were being murdered in that area because the British National Party were going into youth clubs like the Loveville Youth Center which I used to go to as a
00:46:01 Youth Center which I used to go to as a teenager which is probably 20 yards from where the BMP headquarters was. the BMP were going into there or they were standing outside and giving out leaflets and they were recruiting young people to
00:46:12 and they were recruiting young people to the British National Party and they were inciting racist attack, racial hatred, division and racist attacks. So is it right though that you don't there's no evidence that the the BNP members were responsible for the four murders that that you've referred to?
00:46:30 murders that that you've referred to? There's no evidence directly. Um, and would you accept that the BNP, it being not a prescribed uh uh uh political party, were a legitimate political party and had a right to be able to campaign as did the groups on the left. Uh, no, I
00:46:45 as did the groups on the left. Uh, no, I would not accept that because um the BNP were openly fascist. They said that. They said, we didn't say it, well, we did say it about them, but they said it about themselves. They said, "We are a
00:46:57 about themselves. They said, "We are a Nazi party." And Hitler was right. Now, um, how can you be have an awareness
00:47:08 um, how can you be have an awareness about social justice, be anti-racist, and just allow that to go on and to continue. Um uh they were clearly linked to C18 which had the slogan uh uh uh
00:47:20 had the slogan uh uh uh I can't remember it now off the top of my head but a slogan that they used from from from Hitler. Um and they were
00:47:32 from from Hitler. Um and they were active. I mean I I know who they were. Some of them they went to school with me. They had skin heads, Dr. Martin boots. They stood on the street corners. So, uh, so that was a reality.
00:47:42 reality. Were you personally threatened?
00:47:54 Were you personally threatened? I was threatened. Yeah. I, uh, the C18 were in a pub in Beexley Heath, and they were, um, say in the pub saying, "Does anybody know who that commie slag is, Lois Austin, and where does she live?"
00:48:08 Lois Austin, and where does she live?" Um, and friends of mine were in the pub and and said, you know, Lois is one of us. She's part of the community and leave her alone. Um, and I was also on the C18 hit list as well. So, a young woman, teenage woman, and because I was
00:48:21 woman, teenage woman, and because I was campaigning against racism and fascism, I end up on a on a on a hit list for C18, and they're in a local pub asking for my address. You mentioned um the
00:48:35 for my address. You mentioned um the murder of Steven Lawrence um and that happened on the 22nd of April 1993. That then triggered a call for a demonstration, did it in Welling and that first demonstration took place on the 8th of May 1993. It did. I have to stress here that we organized the
00:48:47 stress here that we organized the lobbies of Beexley Council, but we also organized after every racist murder and after every racist attack, we organized
00:49:00 after every racist attack, we organized a demo or protest of some kind. So that demonstration on the 8th of May was
01:03:51 So coming up on screen there should be the world in action footage from 1993 entitled Violence with Violence. Um it
01:04:07 entitled Violence with Violence. Um it was series 30 episode 8 and it was aired on the 15th of November 93. Can we just show there is terror on our uh play from 1340 to 1357.
01:04:18 So 1340 please to 1357 first.
01:04:30 climb now the So what we can see here is coming down this main route towards the junction from Winds Common up in the uh top right left hand corner and we have the demonstration coming down uh to the
01:04:45 demonstration coming down uh to the front and we can see the line of police officers there backed up with mounted officers. Um had you paused at that stage? Had the the demonstration the march come to a stop at this stage?
01:05:00 march come to a stop at this stage? Yeah. So we we paused and all of the organ all of the groups we'd had a conversation beforehand. So I was involved in all of this. I was involved in the meetings before the demonstration at Scotland Yard trying to negotiate
01:05:12 at Scotland Yard trying to negotiate with the police the route that we wanted and we had, you know, we had sort of arguments with the police and saying it was our democratic to right to march past the the BMP headquarters. That's where people are expecting to
01:05:23 That's where people are expecting to march. That's the root of the problem. We want to march that route. And as part of that negotiation, had you explained to the the the police that it was going to be very well attended and where
01:05:35 to be very well attended and where people were coming from to attend? Yes, we had. So, I mean, the idea that it was the undercovers that told the police it was going to be a big demonstration. No, we told the police it was going to be a big demonstration. We
01:05:46 was going to be a big demonstration. We said we're going to have 50,000 people. This is the fourth racist murder in that area. People are angry. We are going to have a big demonstration. And it's our de, as I said, it's our democratic right
01:06:01 de, as I said, it's our democratic right to march past the BMP headquarters. They didn't agree. We didn't get agreement before the demonstration. And then we know that they I think is this at
01:06:13 know that they I think is this at section 12 order for the for the for the for for the route of the march. So what we'd agreed the organizers was that we would get to that point and then we would um attempt to negotiate with the police again the route that we wanted.
01:06:26 police again the route that we wanted. and I was uh along with Julie Watson, we were engaged with the police trying to negotiate that that that that we wanted to go along Upper Wickham Lane. Um and that went on for quite a while.
01:06:40 that went on for quite a while. Meanwhile, the the protest is coming down coming down the hill. Um, but it was obvious to me at that point that Oakampton Cresant was blocked
01:06:55 that Oakampton Cresant was blocked as was Lodge Hill. And I remember saying to the police, "Well, if you want us to go up Lodge Hill, why have you got lines
01:07:08 go up Lodge Hill, why have you got lines of riots police blocking Lodge Hill with police horses? Why are you doing that?" We can talk to you about getting our stewards to get the demonstration up Lodge Hill, but why have you blocked it? And they refused to answer me. So, if we play the footage now, up until 1357.
01:07:25 play the footage now, up until 1357. Monstration had reached the police roadblock. But who were some of the groups on the march? By far the largest were youth against racism in Europe. Y
01:07:38 were youth against racism in Europe. Y mil militant who had been expelled from the Labour Party had set up YR to recruit young people from the anti-racist movement being a member of militant labor. Stop there. Um so 1436
01:07:48 just to 1446
01:07:56 don't officially advocate violence. Weld in action has discovered a hidden group of 25 within the organization called the away team used for defense and direct confrontation.
01:08:08 confrontation. If we stop there and then 1735 to 1836
01:08:21 the demonstrators on the October 16th march were moving on police lines blocking the way to the fascist bookshop. Negotiations to allow a small token group through had failed. The organizers wanted all or nothing. The
01:08:32 organizers wanted all or nothing. The march didn't stop. The march was stopped by the organizers who then demanded of police that the march be allowed to go past the BNP bookshop. I mean, I posed the question why. They'd been served with a notice nearly a week
01:08:46 been served with a notice nearly a week before that they would not be allowed to go down past the BMP bookshop. As the demonstrators pushed forward, they found all exits, including the alternative route ordered by the police, blocked.
01:09:05 blocked. So that's Lodge Lane, Lodge Hill, Lodge. Frustrated and hemmed in. Demonstrators began pushing and shoving. Placards were thrown. The riot police were moved in. Racism had been forgotten. It was now a fight with the police who blocked the way to the bookshop. [cheering] I think so.
01:09:26 Um, so that's the footage where we can see you'd stopped, tried to negotiate again to to go up with Upper Wickham Lane past the BNP bookshop. Police had refused.
01:09:39 refused. Police had refused and then you came to the junction where all exit routes were blocked off. Is that your evidence? Um,
01:09:41 Um, yes.
01:09:49 Why was it important for you to march past the BMP headquarters? Because um we believed that that was our democratic right. That um
01:10:00 right. That um that the British National Party headquarters was the source of the problem.
01:10:05 problem. that
01:10:07 that many of those on the demonstration I mean the commentary the commentary is just rubbish and ridiculous but the the the commentator says the the biggest group on the march was the wire actually
01:10:25 group on the march was the wire actually the biggest group on the march was local people from Welling people from Beexley people from Grinnidge I knew because I knew them and I recognized them and I organized them to come on the march and I met them all on winds common and said right it's really important that you lot are up the front because you are local this is your area. So, we believe that
01:10:40 this is your area. So, we believe that we had the right to march that route and we thought that the police were denying us our democratic right and that it was important to march where the BMP were active because we were the community and
01:10:51 active because we were the community and we were showing to the community that we were the majority, that the BMP were not the majority. that if particularly if you was a black or Asian family living in Welling at that time, you did not
01:11:08 in Welling at that time, you did not need to be fearful because we were the majority and we were organized and we wanted to
01:11:10 wanted to uh we wanted to create an environment where people felt safe
01:11:23 an environment where people felt safe and that the British National Party and their activity was isolated. Had you heard of any rumor about the BMP uh uh bookshop being burnt down?
01:11:34 uh uh bookshop being burnt down? No. And that quite frankly is ridiculous because the method of the Y and the Anti-Nazi League as well actually. They've spoken for themselves.
01:11:50 actually. They've spoken for themselves. But the method of the YR was um to build a mass political campaign. That is how you defeat fascism. You if if if a plan if I had heard of any plan like that, I would have said
01:12:01 any plan like that, I would have said don't be ridiculous. Number one, it's he heavily fortified. I don't know if you've seen it. But also, there was a residential house next door to it and we
01:12:12 residential house next door to it and we had knocked on that house several before every protest. Um we knocked on that house and said, you know, we're having a protest. We just want to let you know the target is the BMP headquarters. We we door knocked up a Wickham Lane and
01:12:26 we door knocked up a Wickham Lane and put a leaflet through every door. Why would we? It was our community. Why would we want a big violent act and a building burnt down in our community? It's just nonsense. It's rubbish. It did not happen. And um and it was not the
01:12:44 not happen. And um and it was not the method of the wiry. Can we have up on screen please UCPI25694?
01:12:55 This is the SDS intelligent report on Welling. It's a compilation of intelligence reports and it's dated the 18th of September 93. On page one,
01:13:13 we can see that up until the evening, uh, people were confident that they were going to be able to reach the bookshop and if practical, destroying it. Do you see that?
01:13:20 see that? Yeah.
01:13:23 Yeah. You say that's not accurate. That wasn't the intention. That's not accurate. And in fact the night before the demonstration we had a huge big stewards meeting in Woolage that was hosted by uh Grenidge action
01:13:39 that was hosted by uh Grenidge action committee against racist attacks Grenage CRA Indian workers association and then we were there ENL and youth against racism in Europe. We had a big meeting, must have been 200 people, where we we we talked about the protest, what we
01:13:51 we talked about the protest, what we were going to do on the day, tactics on the day, which was march, try to negotiate with the police, um, and we talked about stewards and we got that organized. We'd already asked the local trade unions to provide stewards and
01:14:05 trade unions to provide stewards and stuff like that. So, so that's what we were doing on the eve of the demonstration. We were organ we had a huge steward meeting and we were planning for what we were going to do the following day.
01:14:16 the following day. We can see paragraph two on here that there were 7,000 police officers when you arrived that day and um the con that convinced leaders on the morning of the march that it would be impossible to
01:14:29 march that it would be impossible to reach the bookshop and from the moment they reached that conclusion their efforts became less than wholehearted. What would you say about that?
01:14:40 What would you say about that? Well, we there were reports in the press in the weeks running up to the 16th of October that all police leave was cancelled, that there was going to be a massive police presence. And so, so
01:14:56 massive police presence. And so, so we knew and everybody knew that that the idea that you could attempt to march up a Wickham Lane to the BMP headquarters um without police permission that that was just not going to happen. But nevertheless, it was it was really
01:15:07 nevertheless, it was it was really important to continue to press that point, to continue to negotiate that point.
01:15:16 point. Um, and in fact, paragraph three says that the the physical presence and appearance of large numbers of fully equipped right police was the single most persuasive deterrent to the ill-intentioned mob on that day. And the second major factor was the choice of
01:15:31 second major factor was the choice of battleground by the police. So, what do you say about uh the mob being ill-intentioned and what do you say about the choice of battleground by the police?
01:15:42 police? Well, I just don't think it's true. I don't think that there was a ill-intentioned mob on the day. I I think the police I'll come Well, I'll come to this point about the police, the choice of the battleground by the police
01:15:57 choice of the battleground by the police in a second, but I don't think it was an ill-intentioned mob. I think it was and and this is all part of a campaign around these events to criminalize protests, to criminalize people that go
01:16:11 protests, to criminalize people that go on demonstrations and to frighten people from coming on demonstrations, which I think is completely and utterly unacceptable in what is supposed to be a democratic society. You should be able to feel that you can go on a
01:16:23 to feel that you can go on a demonstration and that you will be safe and that you won't be told that you're some violent person. As I said, we were on the side of the angels. That demonstration was right and it was a good thing to do because of the terrible, terrible racist violence in
01:16:35 terrible, terrible racist violence in the area. Now on the second line where it says the major factor was the choice of battleground by the police. Um uh well we we never we never had any
01:16:47 well we we never we never had any intention of trying to get through police lines because that would have been impossible and ridiculous and we would never have suggested that. But I do think the police chose that
01:16:58 do think the police chose that battleground. I think that that was a trap. I think and I've I I asked the question I said or I made the point that the inquiry needs to look at why Lodge Hill was blocked. Why was it blocked? You can see clearly on the video that
01:17:11 You can see clearly on the video that there are lines of right police and then there are horses behind them. What was all that about? Why did they do that? To this day, I don't understand. Why did
01:17:22 this day, I don't understand. Why did they block Lodge Hill? It can only be and this is my view now I've come to after all of these years that it was a police trap that we came down the hill
01:17:36 police trap that we came down the hill we had absolutely nowhere to go and um every exit route was blocked and as I said I know the geography I know those roads I know them very very well and I said to the police if you don't want us to go up Lodge Hill we can go up Oakampton Cresant it's actually quite a
01:17:48 Oakampton Cresant it's actually quite a wide I think it's a B- road we'll go up Oak Hansson Cresant and there is a park at the top of there where we can uh uh
01:18:01 at the top of there where we can uh uh have a closing rally and disperse and go home. They wouldn't open up Oakampton Cresant. And I think it was a police trap and the police attacked us. This idea and the world in action program repeats it. This idea that we all then
01:18:17 repeats it. This idea that we all then began attacking the police is just not true. The police attacked the demonstration and you can see actually as we march to the to the police blockage. You can see we're just walking.
01:18:32 we're just walking. You can see two or three lines of plain clothes police amongst us just walking along. In fact, think we were talking to them. So the idea if if if it was true that we were some violent mob that
01:18:43 that we were some violent mob that wanted to attack the police, why didn't we why didn't we attack them then them then when they were just walking amongst us in plain clothes? It's absolute rubbish. And that report, that world in action report when it was played yesterday, some of us sitting up there
01:18:54 yesterday, some of us sitting up there giggled. We laughed because we thought, how the hell do they manage to put that stuff out is absolute rubbish. But I do
01:19:05 stuff out is absolute rubbish. But I do think it was a police trap. I think that they they attacked us. They wanted to discredit the protesters and as I said uh why did they not open Lodge Hill and in fact they allowed those um you know
01:19:20 in fact they allowed those um you know continual charges at protesters first of all with right police and then with police on horseback. They allowed that to go on and while I was negotiating me
01:19:31 to go on and while I was negotiating me it might have been with this Olsson guy saying open up Lodge Hill. This is dangerous. open up Lodge Hill because someone's going to get killed. And I was negotiating with him. I had stewards around me. Something that wasn't in my
01:19:46 around me. Something that wasn't in my witness statement that actually I sort of forgotten about that I should have put in was that I was charged on two occasions by right police. I was trying to talk to the police. I was charged. I was on the floor. And if it weren't for the Y stewards, and I know the Y
01:20:00 the Y stewards, and I know the Y stewards teams come up a lot in this inquiry. If it wasn't for the Y stewards, people like Dan Gilman and others who jumped on my back when the
01:20:11 others who jumped on my back when the police were trying to batter me and they took the blows on their backs. If it hadn't been for that, I honestly believe that I would have ended up like Julie Watson who was whacked across the head with a police tunchon. And I could see
01:20:29 with a police tunchon. And I could see her on my left. I'm negotiating with the police. Please keep charging us. And I could see Julie Watson and her white jacket covered in blood. And I was saying to our stewards, they've got Julie, they've got Julie, uh, you've got to go over there, you've got to assist. That was what was going on. That was the
01:20:43 That was what was going on. That was the reality of Welling. And I'm so glad that I got the opportunity here at this inquiry to put the record straight. There was Sorry, I'm just going can I just say a couple of more things? Just after that there was one the well the very next day actually on the Sunday my
01:20:58 very next day actually on the Sunday my mom and dad lived in Wellin just off the high street and I was staying at my parents house and my dad said let's go and have a look and see what's going on and we had a drive around and we we we
01:21:09 and we had a drive around and we we we bumped into the ITN news team reporting and going on about these violent protesters and my dad said to them why don't you report the truth why don't you report that the police have blocked Lodged Lodge Hill and They they
01:21:26 Lodged Lodge Hill and They they continually charged in an enclosed space all of these protesters with nowhere to go. You couldn't go be back because there was 50,000 people behind us. Why don't you tell the truth? And then my dad said to them, and you can see it in that world in action program, and I'm
01:21:42 that world in action program, and I'm going to say it just in case I don't get asked about it. In that world in action program at the end of it, I think it's that footage. You can see riot police chasing people across a field. Now that field again, as I said, I know the
01:21:57 field again, as I said, I know the geography very well. That's Clam Field and that's at the top to the left of Lodge Hill. Now that was where the police had said we were going to disperse. That was their route. We were going to go up Lodge Hill and we were going to have a closing rally on Clamfield and then we were going to go
01:22:10 Clamfield and then we were going to go home from there. So after at the point which we finally get them to open up Lodge Hill, we get the demonstration moving up Lodge Hill. The police still charge protesters as they're leaving and going up Lodge Hill. They then ram
01:22:26 going up Lodge Hill. They then ram police horses into them and our stewards are getting kicked by police horses as they're trying to keep the protest together and get them to go up Lodge Hill. The protesters then get onto Clamfield and the riot police chase them across Clamfield. That's what you can
01:22:39 across Clamfield. That's what you can see on that footage. Why are riot police with bats and shields charging protesters and hitting protesters and beating them up while they are leaving
01:22:52 beating them up while they are leaving the area? It's utterly disgraceful. And I wanted to say that about Clamfield just in case I don't get a question about it.
01:22:56 about it. Thank you. Moving on to page two of this document.
01:22:56 document. Yeah.
01:22:57 Yeah. Um paragraph one. Um, we can see here that um there's reference to Julie Wston who spoke about uh just a moment ago and she was for the
01:23:12 uh just a moment ago and she was for the SWP about halfway down the the paragraph and she was urging a sitdown protest in front of police lines using families of murdered colored youths and a Holocaust survivor as stooges.
01:23:25 survivor as stooges. Um, is there a racist inference there in this reporting about the fact that families of young people who had been murdered were being used for a purpose, a political purpose? Yeah. And I think that the,
01:23:38 Yeah. And I think that the, you know, I think it's the fact that the police report it in that way shows their racism actually and their their prejudice that that black families,
01:23:50 prejudice that that black families, black members of the community have to be led or can be in some way um manipulated by activists, socialists, trade unionists. It's absolute rubbish.
01:24:04 trade unionists. It's absolute rubbish. Um and um you know there were as I said that we know that there were different
01:24:15 that we know that there were different sort of tactics in the campaign. We know for example that anti-racist alliance didn't want to march in Wellin. They wanted to march I'm I'm going to move on here because we've got quite a lot to get through. Um paragraph three of this document. Um stewards were instructed not to carry weapons.
01:24:28 weapons. So is that right? Were stewards instructed not to carry weapons? Um I can't remember that specific specifically saying that, but that just wasn't something that we did. Is that in a police report? I mean, we didn't
01:24:40 a police report? I mean, we didn't we didn't have to say to our stewards, don't carry weapons because we didn't carry weapons. We were about we you know and I I hope I'm going to
01:24:53 we you know and I I hope I'm going to get some more questions about [laughter] about our stewarding team because because
01:24:57 because you know the idea that we were violent that we were carrying weapons that we were up for a fight and all of that it's just not true. We were
01:25:09 just not true. We were moving on then to paragraph uh to page three of this document. So still this is the the Welling report. Um, paragraph one does say the actual fighting
01:25:18 fighting was sustained by a group of 60 to 100 crusties who the stewards were powerless to control. And it was clear that many of the stewards, fearing for their
01:25:31 of the stewards, fearing for their safety, were eager to calm things down. So, what do you say about that? Were there a group of crusties that you were aware of? Well, what this police officer, what does he mean by I mean,
01:25:43 officer, what does he mean by I mean, it's insulting to call people crusties, but um but there were there were some people at the front that were getting charged and battered by police batterns. Don't
01:25:55 battered by police batterns. Don't forget, we had lots of protesters and stewards of head injuries on that day that were uh that that were pushing and shoving back. I mean that there were I
01:26:07 shoving back. I mean that there were I mean when you get pushed and shoved by someone with a big right shield into a crowd of 50,000 people behind you you push and shove back. I mean started that did happen.
01:26:20 started that did happen. What did start it? Do you accept there that the actual fighting was started by a a group of people that the stewards didn't have much control over or was there something else that provoked?
01:26:34 there something else that provoked? No, I do not accept that the the the violence was started by the police. The police charged the demonstration. They they very they we were negotiating. They moved the line of of of police that were in sort of normal police clothes. They
01:26:52 in sort of normal police clothes. They moved them out the way and they brought in the riot police while I was talking to the police and trying to negotiate something and they moved them in and then they started to push the front of the demonstration backwards into everybody else and and people were forced. Do you see footage of people
01:27:06 forced. Do you see footage of people getting onto going into gardens or up onto the cemetery wall on the right? That was because there was a crush and people were having to jump up and get out of the way. Paragraph two of this document says that the largest group was
01:27:22 document says that the largest group was the NUT, the National Union of Teachers. Was that right? Um, I don't think that probably is right. How do they know if [laughter] someone is a teacher or not? Um I think that's a bit of a silly thing to say. I
01:27:37 that's a bit of a silly thing to say. I think that there probably I know that um we
01:27:37 we sorry if I if I if I clarify that yeah there were unions present and of the uh unions the largest union group was from the National Union of Teachers.
01:27:49 the National Union of Teachers. Oh well that might be true because we did lots and lots and lots of work um
01:28:00 did lots and lots and lots of work um anti-racist work with the National Union of Teachers with Unison. We did lots of I spoke probably at lots of national union teachers meetings. We had a schools pack which I went and did talks in six1 college effic schools about our
01:28:15 in six1 college effic schools about our schools pack and stuff. So that is that it may be true that the NUT was the biggest trade union um grouping. Paragraph three talks about police tactics. police tactics on mounted and batten charges instilled fear in all but the most
01:28:31 instilled fear in all but the most enraged demonstrators. You did talk about the fear caused by uh uh the police uh actions and the topography of the scene which resulted in the march being pinched so as to allow only a few hundred
01:28:42 as to allow only a few hundred protesters into the fighting area, the police holding the high ground, meant that most of those who would have joined
01:28:55 that most of those who would have joined the frey were unable to do so. Does that uh ring true as as your as you remember it that because the protest group was pinched only a few people were able to go into the main area where the fighting was happening? Um I think the first
01:29:08 was happening? Um I think the first sentence is uh is right that the police tactics of mounted and bat judge instilled fear in everybody. Well, it says in all but the most enraged. I think it it certainly instilled fear in me. I was very frightened and scared.
01:29:23 me. I was very frightened and scared. Um, but I don't think that's right about the march being pinched. I think that
01:29:34 the march being pinched. I think that the um the right police were coming from the front and they were pushing everybody back. Um if later a line of police came in
01:29:45 if later a line of police came in further up and and and what what we what we know that they do do on demonstrations which is you know section off that's what they did on May the 8th they section they split the demonstration whether that happened on October the 16th I can't remember I
01:29:58 October the 16th I can't remember I think in Lewis's evidence yesterday he said that that is what happened and what happened to him but I I can't remember that. I just remember this onslaught in the front and pushing people backwards.
01:30:12 the front and pushing people backwards. Ultimately, we know that Lodge Hill was opened up and the protesters were able to uh uh continue up towards the finish uh point.
01:30:27 uh point. What ultimately happened in relation to the BNP headquarters? Okay, so just on very briefly if you
01:30:33 very briefly if you Okay, sorry. I know. Yeah, but on that point about Lodge Hill being opened up, it wasn't opened up just because the police saw, "All right, we've had enough. Let's open up Lodge Hill." They opened up Lodge Hill because we forced them to. We negotiated it. I There was a long time before they did that where
01:30:51 long time before they did that where they were refusing to open up Lodge Hill and I was saying, "Why the hell are you not opening up Lodge Hill? This is dangerous. Someone's going to get killed." So, that's the first point. Um and then and as I said as we were leaving we were being attacked by right
01:31:03 leaving we were being attacked by right police and police on horseback. Um what ultimately happened was that our campaign was successful. The political campaign that we had in the area, the
01:31:14 campaign that we had in the area, the mass pressure from everything that we did along with other groups meant that the authorities eventually did set up a planning inquiry to close
01:31:26 did set up a planning inquiry to close down the BMP headquarters. Now, I don't said we were demanding that for six years before they did it. We said you can use planning laws to close down the BMP HQ. You can use the Race Relations Act, Incitement to Racial Hatred and
01:31:39 Act, Incitement to Racial Hatred and Violence. Why are you not doing it? They set up a planning inquiry in 1994 and I wrote the evidence for youth against racism in Europe where I linked issues around planning and detriment to the community to the Race Relations Act
01:31:59 the community to the Race Relations Act and incitement to racial hatred. And I I said race relations act is relevant for planning law and and and that is a reason to close it. and the judge included our submission and that point in his recom in his reasoning as to why the BMP headquarters should be closed down. So, so we so our mass political
01:32:15 down. So, so we so our mass political campaign one, but you see more than that and it's really important that I say this because I've painted a picture. I gave the context of what happened, the BMP activity, the violence, the racist attacks. It was literally quite awful
01:32:26 attacks. It was literally quite awful and terrifying particularly for black and Asian members of our community. As well as getting the BMP headquarters closed down, we actually stopped their activity. We stopped them going into
01:32:40 activity. We stopped them going into youth clubs, recruiting young people, going into schools, standing outside with leaflets and stuff. We actually forced back their activity because of a political campaign for many years. Obviously, it's very frightening now
01:32:52 Obviously, it's very frightening now because we've got the likes of Tommy Robinson and people like that coming to the four. Um, so we've probably got to do the same again, but at that time we
01:33:03 do the same again, but at that time we stopped the BMP activity in that area. So it was a successful campaign. in terms of militancy. So leaving Welling now, um I want to ask you just more
01:33:16 now, um I want to ask you just more generally about um the political group the Yre that was a part of militant labor as it was before it became militant and then by 96 I think it was known as the socialist party. Um what does the term militancy mean in the
01:33:30 does the term militancy mean in the context of y activity for instance was it a part of the identity of the the type of activity that you undertook? Well, as I said, Yre became a very broad youth organization with militant members involved, but but not actually the
01:33:48 involved, but but not actually the majority in terms of we had I remember Hannah and I sitting with our on our desk with about 20,000 cars, membership cards of young people, little red cars of people that had signed up to join. So, it became
01:34:02 had signed up to join. So, it became very big and very broad. But when we use the term militant or militancy in a labor movement context and this is really important because I know it came up yesterday and also it came up about fight for your rights or a placard that said you know we we will fight or
01:34:14 said you know we we will fight or something like that when we use the word militant or militancy in labor movement context. I mean that is language of the labor movement and if somebody's raising it to suggest that it means violence or something they don't really understand
01:34:26 something they don't really understand the labor movement. So I would describe myself as a workingclass militant. I work for a campaigning trade union and you know when an employer says we're
01:34:37 you know when an employer says we're going to make job cuts or we're going to d rip up your terms and conditions or we're going to outsource you to a rotten private company then we take militant
01:34:48 private company then we take militant action. We build the union. We organize for ballots for industrial action. We set up strikes and picket lines. So it it it that's what it means in the in the in the context of the labor movement and it's a term that's always been there.
01:35:00 it's a term that's always been there. It's always been used. I think there was even
01:35:03 even Does it mean confrontation? Does it mean violence?
01:35:07 violence? No, it doesn't. It means it means um see and and this is this is the point about about the the the method of the militant the socialist party and also the ideology and the method that we tried to
01:35:19 ideology and the method that we tried to bring into the yi which was that you win these campaigns through mass political action and activity. That's how you do it.
01:35:29 it. Have you personally been violent on demonstrations? No. which is why I'm very upset that there is a special branch file on me that I was spied on by spied on by undercover police officers for many years. Um I think uh Peter Francis said
01:35:47 years. Um I think uh Peter Francis said to the Guardian reporter Paul Paul Lewis when he first got in touch with me and said, "Do you know Peter Francis has blown the whistle?" He said this about you. Apparently Peter Francis said there's a there was a MI5 file on Lois
01:35:59 there's a there was a MI5 file on Lois but not a special branch file on Lois. Now there is a special branch file on me, a very big one. So my question to the inquiry and I want it investigated
01:36:10 the inquiry and I want it investigated is that I have never been arrested for violence. I have never been brought before a court. I think I was cautioned once because I was on a sitdown protest with students over the abolition of free education and when they introduced tuition fees in Islington and I we sat
01:36:21 tuition fees in Islington and I we sat down and officer came up and I think he I don't think I was even I think he said to me if you don't get up Lois we'll have to caution you. So we got up cuz I didn't want to spend didn't want to be cautioned. So So I have never been
01:36:35 cautioned. So So I have never been arrested and brought before a court and I do not have a criminal record and I have never been violent. So why do the Metropolitan Police and the Secret Services have a huge file on me? It is completely and utterly wrong. It is
01:36:48 completely and utterly wrong. It is disgraceful and it's something that should never ever happen in a so-called or supposedly uh democratic society. And
01:37:00 or supposedly uh democratic society. And I think what goes to the heart of all of this and again it needs to be said at this inquiry is that this is political policing. This is the police, the secret services, and the British state saying um anybody that criticizes
01:37:18 um anybody that criticizes the state and what it's doing um is a legitimate target. And that is completely and utterly wrong. And as I said, it's political policing. And the
01:37:36 said, it's political policing. And the fact that these police officers colluded with private public organization that's supposed to be held to account by MPs, the fact they spied on MPs is utterly disgraceful. And who gave you authorization for that? The home secretary, the prime minister. Can I just keep you? You can. But then the very last point I would say about this is that um is that
01:37:53 would say about this is that um is that as I said this is political policing and who gave the authorization and who who knew about it
01:38:07 knew about it and that's something that we will be investigating in the broader um evidence of the inquiry but in terms of y itself the logo at the time was that a fist smashing a swastika and does that indicate that there was violence involved in it? I understand that the the current logo is a swastika being put into a bin. So is does that indicate
01:38:19 into a bin. So is does that indicate that there has been a change of emphasis on the uh the workings of the YRA? No, not at all. And I actually think we used I don't think that was I think we used lots of um graphics. The swastika
01:38:33 used lots of um graphics. The swastika in the bin, the fist going through the swastika. Um, we use the red wedge symbolism which was used by uh the um people like Ben Elton and Lenny Henry
01:38:44 people like Ben Elton and Lenny Henry and that when they set up the red wedge organization in the 1980s. Um so we use lots of stuff but that but no and it's symbolic the the fist going through the
01:39:07 symbolic the the fist going through the swastika I think every anti-racist every anti-fascist organization uses that and it's symbolic. It it's about as I said our our method was about mass political activity. There's a document uh UCPI 33071
01:39:21 which is behind tab B1. It's a document and event performer from the 9th of November 1993.
01:39:35 November 1993. And this is about a Y weekend conference and the organizer is uh named as as you Lois Austin entitled Smash the Nazis. Um were slogans chanted from the Yre megaphone at events to the effect of smash the BMP, the only Nazi is a dead Nazi and bash the fash.
01:39:50 Nazi and bash the fash. Um yeah, I remember that event at Southbank University. Um uh we would have used slogans like smash the BMP. Uh but again, you know, it's sort of to
01:40:06 but again, you know, it's sort of to think that that means that you're going to go out and have violent street confrontations is a complete and utter misunderstanding
01:40:21 misunderstanding of um of our methods which were about um as I said isolating the BMP, political education, building mass protests in the community. I mean, if we was to there's no evidence at all that we h that we ever attacked groups
01:40:36 that we h that we ever attacked groups of Nazis. There is no evidence of that anywhere.
01:40:39 anywhere. Peter Francis says in his witness statement, if I can just take you to Can I just finish that point? Actually, the point I was going to make is that if we if we had engaged in that sort of activity, it would have been completely and utterly counterproductive. Imagine
01:40:51 and utterly counterproductive. Imagine if all people in the Welling area saw or Elton was groups of us, well, not me cuz I would never be up for anything like that, but groups of anti-fascists
01:41:06 that, but groups of anti-fascists y members having fights with skin heads. That would have been completely counterproductive. Who would have in the community thought that's a good idea and I'm going to join that lot. That was not our method. I've explained what our method was in detail and I can do it
01:41:20 method was in detail and I can do it again, but it was not our method. And our method actually was ultimately successful because we closed the BMP. We pushed them back for a whole period. They couldn't organize in the area. So is it your evidence then that you reject what Peter Francis says at um
01:41:35 reject what Peter Francis says at um paragraph 378 of his witness statement? I don't need to bring it up, but that the Oh, the Y uh slogan was no platform for fascists and one of the core objectives was to hit the fascists wherever possible.
01:41:47 hit the fascists wherever possible. And he he does say that he observed frequent mentions from within the Y that this is not a debating society suggesting that you action and
01:42:01 suggesting that you action and particularly confrontation and conflict with the the BMP was one of your objectives. Yes. So so Pete again Peter Francis gives no evidence at all. There's nothing in there of of any actual violent attacks by Y members or members
01:42:13 violent attacks by Y members or members of our stewards or whatever. So there's no evidence to support that. But again, it's a misunderstanding
01:42:24 it's a misunderstanding of language which is commonly used in the labor movement and and around it progressive campaigns because it's commonly used the phrase no platform for fasci fascists which means that so for example when Beexley Council said to us
01:42:42 example when Beexley Council said to us um well just ignore them they'll go away let them do what they want to do but if you keep making a fuss about it and bringing attention to it you're making it worse. Um, our attitude was no, we can't let them just hold their public meetings. We can't let them stand on
01:42:54 meetings. We can't let them stand on welling corner giving out leaflets or going to the youth center and talk to people because there's big dangers in that if that's allowed to happen. We can't let them grow because of what it leads to. So, we would say that their
01:43:06 leads to. So, we would say that their headquarters needs to be closed. They shouldn't be given council premises for public meetings. If they do hold a public meeting, I don't know, Booked Welling Library for a public meeting or something like that, then we would
01:43:17 something like that, then we would organize the community and the trade unions to go go to the library and stand outside and say we can't let them in. We can't let them hold their meeting. That's not the same as having a street
01:43:30 That's not the same as having a street fight. That's saying no platform means that we need to use a political
01:43:41 that we need to use a political campaign. We need to use the community, the mass, as many people as we can to ensure that they are no platformed. That's what we mean by that. I'd like to ask you uh specific questions about the away team. During the footage, we heard reference to, you know, a small group of about 25 within
01:43:54 know, a small group of about 25 within the RE known as the away team. Is that a group that you recognize? Well, I think it's sort of become what's the word a bit of a because at the time nobody was really referring to Y
01:44:07 nobody was really referring to Y Stewarts as the Aways team. It's become a bit of a sort of can't think of the term you know can't think of the term but it's become that and um nobody
01:44:18 but it's become that and um nobody but it it was certainly a phrase that was used in 1993 at the time of welling wasn't it because it was in the world of world in action footage. Yeah.
01:44:24 Yeah. So it's not something that has been but it was never formalized. There was never let's set up an away team and let's have a meeting and set you know who's a member of it. Nothing like that
01:44:37 who's a member of it. Nothing like that ever happened. It was sort of um I mean just because a world in action journalist has repeated it because he's heard it from someone doesn't mean that it that it's true. I think we they were referred to as the way team. It was a
01:44:49 referred to as the way team. It was a bit of a joke at first. It's now become a bit of a legend but essentially they were y stewards which um played a really
01:45:03 were y stewards which um played a really really important and crucial role. And I think that if they hadn't have been there at Welling 2 and on other protests, then there would have been injuries. So if I can just if I can just give you a bit of background. So for
01:45:16 give you a bit of background. So for example, I'm not sure if it comes up in the documents of inquiry. I think it does somewhere, but early on when we was campaigning against the BMP headquarters, we were violently attacked. So there was a public meeting in Wellin Library called by the Bexling
01:45:30 in Wellin Library called by the Bexling Greenwich laid movement campaign against racism and fascism. I wasn't at that meeting. I don't know where I was. My dad was at it and some other trade union people and local people. And my dad was on the door collecting the names of people coming in and giving out
01:45:42 people coming in and giving out literature and stuff. And the BMP and C18 rushed that meeting. I think it must have been about 91 92. They rushed into that. They they they ran into that meeting. They smashed it up and they
01:45:57 meeting. They smashed it up and they beat everybody up inside. Now there were women in that meeting. A couple of them
01:46:05 women in that meeting. A couple of them I know they were youth workers from the Loveville youth center which was a few doors down from the BMP headquarters. They violently attacked that meeting when we had another demonstration in and around the Woolage area. Um there was a sort of trade union lefty pub in general Gordon Square in the middle of uh
01:46:25 Gordon Square in the middle of uh Woolage and uh some of our uh I think it must have been uh militant people trade union people were in the pub after the demonstration and the and C18 and BMP went into the pub and beat them up. A good friend of mine was put in hospital. He was a radiologist at guys hospital.
01:46:37 He was a radiologist at guys hospital. I want to so that's so that's the background. So just let me finish this point. So, and then we were attacked on May the 8th by right police with shields and bats and we had lots of head injuries. So, that really taught us that
01:46:52 injuries. So, that really taught us that we needed stewards. We needed people who were looking out for dangers and we needed people that could help keep everybody safe particularly when we were trying to get young people, young women involved. I remember a group of women from group last point a group of women
01:47:06 from group last point a group of women from the Glinden estate in Plumstead who were women that had been Mustin if we don't move on we're not going to get through we've got these women and their children involved
01:47:15 involved we're going to go a break in about 10 minutes we can't invite them to come to our events and not steward them so in terms of the stewards though was there a group of about 25 people who stewarded on different events that were more inclined to uh be engaged in
01:47:35 more inclined to uh be engaged in preemptive strikes. So they would go and attack BMP people as opposed to purely defensive. No, there was a group of stewards that would um surround our demonstrations and it was interchangeable by the way. It weren't the same group all the time. There were
01:47:48 the same group all the time. There were some key figures that had learned how to be a good steward and they had done it for their trade union branch and then they were doing it for us. Um and it was about protecting our demonstrations, defending our demonstrations. Um, and
01:47:59 defending our demonstrations. Um, and uh, it wasn't about preemptive stuff. It was about making sure everybody was safe on our protest.
01:48:10 on our protest. You say at paragraph uh, 9.4 of your witness statement that you were successful in challenging and pushing back fascist organizations. Do you mean physically uh, going to
01:48:29 Do you mean physically uh, going to those organizations and pushing back on on those uh, uh, members? No, I don't. And actually, I think the the par the paragraph that that's connected to that's the last sentence in a paragraph that talks about we can go to it. In fact, I think it talks about 9.4
01:48:40 9.4 the planning inquiry, the fact that we won that, the fact that we stopped BMP activity in that area for a whole number of years. So, I say when I say we pushed them back or we forced them back, it's
01:48:56 them back or we forced them back, it's really in the political sense that we we stop their activity. I think Yeah.
01:48:57 Yeah. Yeah.
01:49:00 Yeah. And I say
01:49:02 And I say Peter Franc's claims of a force. Can we have up uh on the display
01:49:13 Can we have up uh on the display uh Peter Franc's witness statement? It's at UCPI 36012,
01:49:22 page 90, paragraph 543.
01:49:27 543. And this is in rel relation to something called dawn raids. Um and he suggests that uh members of the target group in coordination with AFA conducted dawn raids on the BNP.
01:49:42 raids on the BNP. Um and was that something you had any knowledge of? Um, I had I had no knowledge of that and I do not believe that it happened because it would be completely and
01:49:56 because it would be completely and utterly uh uh um counterproductive and it was not the method of YA. He says about halfway through the paragraph, "The role I played in the dawn raids was to take activists around in my van
01:50:07 to take activists around in my van checking up on the addresses listed in the electoral role to determine whether or not they were genuine." And I remember going on these drives in my van with several activists including Paul
01:50:21 with several activists including Paul Heron who was very active in the Beckton area where the BMP were com campaigning a lot. I did not ever go on any dawn raids myself. And he said beginning of that paragraph that it involved putting things up on swastik like swastikas on doors and posting dog excrement
01:50:37 doors and posting dog excrement excrement through uh letter boxes. Is is that something that uh you um had any sense of at all? Not at all. And we would never have done that. I mean,
01:50:48 that. I mean, what about Paul Heron? Was he part of the away team? As I said, that's not our method. It's not our approach. And Paul Paul Heron, no. Paul Heron was not uh regularly a steward. I think he may have stewarded
01:51:00 steward. I think he may have stewarded on one or two occasions. Perod was not a steward and he was not sort of considered as part of the sort of main core group of our stewards. In fact, and I I hope Paul doesn't mind me saying this, Paul and I were leaflitting
01:51:12 this, Paul and I were leaflitting Plumpstead um Mana Girls School, which is just by Plumpster common for one of the demonstrations. And we were, it was just me and him, and we were giving out
01:51:27 just me and him, and we were giving out leaflets encouraging people to come and protest. And um one of the a skin head turned up, a fascist turned up and started threatening us and having a go at us and we both ran away and got in the van and [clears throat] drove off
01:51:43 the van and [clears throat] drove off because it was very frightening the idea that Paul Heron is some kind of and I think in my bundle I've got a report from Peter Francis. I've got all these sort of reports with one line saying this person's violent, this person's violent, this person's violent. utter nonsense. It's it's you know it's
01:51:58 nonsense. It's it's you know it's fanciful and the idea that Paul Herren was violent is just not true at all. Thank you. That can be taken down. Um
01:52:07 in your witness statement
01:52:14 and we we we don't need to go to it. It's at paragraph 16.2 just for the record. But you talk about uh Peter
01:52:26 record. But you talk about uh Peter Francis um and you say that I know Peter Francis was at times involved in trying to shape some of the y activities. I received some reports suggesting he had occasionally encouraged stewards not to
01:52:40 occasionally encouraged stewards not to act solely in a defensive capacity. This raises serious questions for me about whether he may at times have been attempting to act as an azon provocator, deliberately trying to provoke confrontations. And it may be that as
01:52:52 confrontations. And it may be that as part of his angry persona, he was just trying to keep that personality. Now, when you say you received some reports, what what do you mean by that? What knowledge did you have? And did you ever see that for yourself?
01:53:04 ever see that for yourself? No, I didn't see it for myself. I was not in um Peter Francis was in the Hackne WR and the Hackne militant branch and I was living mainly in Southeast
01:53:16 and I was living mainly in Southeast London but a few different places. I was not in um Hackne and um so I didn't come across him an awful lot directly at London events, big events,
01:53:29 at London events, big events, demonstrations, protests, then I would see him and he would be there. But it was reported to me that he had said on occasion um you know why aren't we doing more to confront them? Um and our
01:53:43 more to confront them? Um and our members had said to him, well that's not our method. We're a political organization. that's not our approach and no, we won't be doing anything like that. So, so I am concerned as to
01:53:57 that. So, so I am concerned as to whether or not he did play a role as an agent provocator. Um, that may be too strong a a word to use. Um, we heard
01:54:10 strong a a word to use. Um, we heard yesterday from Lewis that he recalled uh having a meeting with you and Hannah Cell. Yeah. once the inquiry became known about um and he and I'm paraphrasing he said that um you reported to him that when Peter Francis moved from KFG to Yre he suggested to
01:54:23 moved from KFG to Yre he suggested to you three things about Lewis and that was that Lewis ran away at Welling Lewis
01:54:34 was that Lewis ran away at Welling Lewis encouraged him to throw things at others and Lewis was an agent provocator or an agent of the of police. What do you recall about that? Is that something that you told Lewis? Um, no. So, um, I was here yesterday when Lewis gave evidence and I don't
01:54:46 when Lewis gave evidence and I don't remember that. And I think that, um, I don't I I I was I was not at I think I was asked to go to a meeting or there
01:55:03 was asked to go to a meeting or there was a meeting that Socialist Party was having with Lewis to do with other issues.
01:55:08 issues. But I um I was not at that meeting. When he said that, I thought I don't recall that. I sort of recall a meeting set up with Lewis to talk about some other
01:55:19 with Lewis to talk about some other stuff that had come up. Um but I was at work and couldn't attend. So I don't think I well I'm sure I was not at that meeting. I don't I wasn't involved in those conversations. I think it's misremembering.
01:55:31 misremembering. Did Francis actually say that to you? Do you recall Peter Francis saying those things about Lewis to you? No, I don't recall that. I mean, Hannah and I did do everything [clears throat] together four years. So, [laughter] he probably thinks if Hannah was there, I was there. But
01:55:43 if Hannah was there, I was there. But actually, um, I was not. I was not at that meeting. And I don't recall Peter Francis saying those things to me. He may have said it to people in Hatne. We
01:55:56 may have said it to people in Hatne. We would have to ask them about that, but I don't recall that. Very quickly before we break uh uh at midm morning if just in terms of Peter Franc's involvement in violence I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about that if we can display
01:56:08 questions about that if we can display on the screen please. It's uh UCPI 3612
01:56:19 page 89. This is paragraph 537 and 538 of uh Peter Franc's witness statement. He says, "As part of my deep cover, uh, part of my deep cover involved convincing my targets that I was
01:56:31 convincing my targets that I was interested in the confrontational side against the BMP."
01:56:42 And at 538, we as a group certainly instigated violence with the BMP. I, as part of that group, attacked people. That was the role. The role was agreed with management and and that I think he's referring to is SDS management. However, as I have stated, I was very careful, never myself, to be the
01:56:54 careful, never myself, to be the instigator within my group. I would not lead the charge. If the BMP were around, Yre went after them. And that is exactly
01:57:05 Yre went after them. And that is exactly what I did because that was my role. So, a couple of questions. Firstly, were you aware of Peter Francis being involved in preemptive attacks on the BMP?
01:57:16 BMP? No, not at all. I think I don't think there's any truth in this at all. Um um I'm not aware of that at all. We were not involved in preemptive attacks. We were involved in
01:57:28 were involved in lobbies, protests, mass demonstrations, counterprotests. If the BMP were having a protest, we would have a counterprotest. Um but we were not involved in
01:57:41 Um but we were not involved in preemptive attacks. And I don't remember I certainly uh you know I don't think it's true. I think he's making it up and
01:57:55 it's true. I think he's making it up and I think he's making it up to justify his um uh his role as an undercover police officer. We heard evidence from Lewis yesterday and we're going to go on after the break to look at the Brick Lane incident. Um but he and again I'm paraphrasing but he said militant were
01:58:10 paraphrasing but he said militant were more inclined to parliamentary socialism rather than revolutionary socialism and they had been embedded in the Labour party and did become more involved in youth work and anti-fascism but generally his sense was that they they were really generally well disciplined.
01:58:27 were really generally well disciplined. Um but the away team was that something a little bit separate not part of the general steward stewarding but more bit of a law unto themselves a bit more of a secret group.
01:58:38 secret group. No not at all. If you're talking about our stewards militant and actually we we get laughed at about this on the rest of the left is is is a very disciplined organization. We've got a lot of
01:58:51 organization. We've got a lot of political cohesion. We're now socialist party. Um we have a branch structure that people are expected to attend their branch each week. Um and our stewards
01:59:02 branch each week. Um and our stewards would not have been involved in doing anything that the leadership of the Y or those you know well the leadership of
01:59:18 those you know well the leadership of the Y or the leadership of militant then socialist party did not know about. And he's right when he says that we were disciplined. we were and um and first and foremost, as I've said, and I I know I'm repeating myself, first and foremost,
01:59:31 and foremost, all of this was about a political campaign for us in communities and in trade unions. And our stewards were there to ensure that we could do all of that safely, that we would we would not
01:59:47 that safely, that we would we would not be attacked. We had been attacked before we got on top of the stewarding and got it organized properly. We had been attacked. Our members had been put in hospital by fascists and also by right police.
01:59:57 police. So so we we organized very well disciplined stewarding because of all of
02:00:10 disciplined stewarding because of all of that and they [clears throat] would they they did not go rogue because we were a disciplined organization. Thank you sir. That may be a time to break for lunch. That's a a break.
02:00:21 break for lunch. That's a a break. Yes. We now break for 15 minutes uh so that the transcribers can have a break and you can too. All right. Thank you.
02:16:38 Miss Austin, thank you. Um, just one point to clarify from your evidence before the break. you uh mentioned that
02:16:50 before the break. you uh mentioned that the away team was never formalized and I just want to take you to a document. It's MPS 0745874.
02:16:56 [snorts]
02:17:06 Uh page two shows that this was a militant conference in 1994.
02:17:17 conference in 1994. Um uh and on page three of that document the bottom paragraph is in relation to resol sorry uh inter internal page three. So it's the next page along digital page four uh resolution five towards the bottom of that paragraph.
02:17:30 towards the bottom of that paragraph. Can you see that the highlighted part says that resolution five um confirmed the official formation of the away team stewarding group and that
02:17:44 the away team stewarding group and that the second paragraph on this highlighted section was that the the resolution was passed unanimously and privacy has provisionally already called the first official stewards group meeting for Tuesday the 8th of November.
02:17:55 meeting for Tuesday the 8th of November. Um so in that sense uh was it right that
02:18:09 Um so in that sense uh was it right that the await team was an official formation as part of the stewarding group in militant?
02:18:11 militant? No, I'm absolutely sure that it it wasn't. Um I think we may have set up an official stewarding group um at some point. Um I can't remember
02:18:27 um at some point. Um I can't remember but where's the motion that he this is his or is it Peter Francis's report?
02:18:39 his or is it Peter Francis's report? Oh no no this is this is well yes it's um an event performer so it's an SDS um uh report that is based on his intelligence and so he would have fed into this. Yeah. So it's it's his interpretation of what happens at that meeting, but it doesn't the motion five or resolution
02:18:58 doesn't the motion five or resolution five isn't isn't there, is it? So um so we don't know if this is true. I I it may have been I think I was at that conference in Kilik Street if it was a London I think it was the London region militant labor conference. Um it may have been that we discussed stewarding
02:19:15 have been that we discussed stewarding and passed a motion that said something like we need to ensure that sorry what year did you say this was? This is from it's the weekend of the 15th 16th of October 1994. So, so we might have um
02:19:26 So, so we might have um uh had a motion that said something like we need to make sure all events are well stewarded if we're organizing protests and demonstrations where we think the
02:19:40 and demonstrations where we think the BMP or the far right may be in the area. We need to keep people safe. Therefore, every branch needs to be aware. They need to make sure they send a steward to the event. It I would imagine the motion said something like that. Okay.
02:19:51 Okay. Thank you. The next topic I want to move on to is the Brick Lane incident on the 19th of September 93. So this is before Peter
02:20:06 September 93. So this is before Peter Francis is uh deployed into the area. Do you recall whether Peter Francis was there at Brick Lane? I don't. And I have tried I have thought about that and I have um
02:20:21 have um yeah I have thought about that and I cannot remember. Okay.
02:20:26 Okay. Um to put it in context just before we go to the footage um the
02:20:42 demo took place on the 19th of September 1993 and that was just 3 days after the election of the BMP counselor. Um and and you mentioned him before Derek Beacon. Um, and what we can see on the footage is a man with a megaphone shouting, "I love dogs, BNP," repeatedly. And that was taking place in
02:20:59 repeatedly. And that was taking place in Brick Lane in East London, which we know is an ethnic ethnically diverse part of the city. And as you described in your witness statement, it's in the heart of a Bangladeshi community. Yeah. Um if we can have up on screen then um the world in action program
02:21:14 then um the world in action program again and it's uh from the time 1446 to 1541
02:21:25 and it may be that you notice yourself in this footage as well. Yeah. Yeah.
02:21:52 of dogs. In September, the BNP was celebrating their bi-election victory at the aisle of dogs. Separated by the police, the Yre's away team under an ANL banner were protesting on the other side of the street.
02:22:01 street. Suddenly, Yre supporters, some dressed as skin heads, making up the away team, crossed over to the BNP side, pretending to be racists. I heard it uh hearded the anti-fascists into the pen where the
02:22:14 anti-fascists into the pen where the fascists were across the other side of the road. As it happens, the police mistook them for fascists. The police obviously have a preconceived idea what
02:22:30 obviously have a preconceived idea what fascist looks like. Short hair, um, play sport caps, things like that. And it's on film for you all to see what happened. They got a roster. The away team claimed they achieved their aim of attacking and driving the BNP off the streets. Thank you. I'm going to stop it there.
02:22:44 Thank you. I'm going to stop it there. So, we can take that down now, please. Um, did you see yourself in the footage? Yes. Yeah. Were you stood there at at the front on the other side of the road in a denim jacket? Yeah. A denim jacket and long blonde hair. Yeah.
02:23:01 hair. Yeah. Um and what we heard uh in terms of the coverage there was that uh the away team was stood over the other side of the road. Um who was actually stood in that group with you? How would you describe that group that you were with? So that report's inaccurate
02:23:14 So that report's inaccurate um because it says that those people in the protest opposite the BMP paper sale rushed across the road and sort of ran at the BMP. That isn't what happened. Um
02:23:34 at the BMP. That isn't what happened. Um and um uh we so we were behind a barrier and we were having um a static protest. Incidentally, we had permission for that protest from the police. We we we the police knew we were going to be there. The police were there. Um we said,
02:23:49 The police were there. Um we said, "We're going to get this spot." The BMP had been turning up there for weeks. Um terrible racist attacks. Kisali had been attacked and was fighting for his life in hospital just a few months before that. Um and something's got to
02:24:06 before that. Um and something's got to be done about it. So we were um we were where you see me pending and then the BMP were opposite. They were taunting us. They were shouting abuse at us. All sorts of horrible Nazi stuff. And then a group of our stewards were in the area
02:24:22 group of our stewards were in the area around the edge of our on Bethyl Green Road on the corner of Brick Lane. Um because we had been told that C18 was in the area. So um again we'd learned our lesson. And there had been terrible attacks. An ANL stall few months
02:24:34 attacks. An ANL stall few months previously had been turned over and a a member of ours had been cuz we had a few socialist party people on that store, militant people on that stall and he got hospitalized because he was attacked by C18. So that was all the background.
02:24:49 C18. So that was all the background. And how long did the demo last? We've obviously just seen a very short clip. But how long was this demonstration take uh lasting for on this day? I think we were probably we got there early. So we were there before the BMP
02:25:00 early. So we were there before the BMP turned up. So I think we probably there from about 8 or 9 in the morning and then we're there for about an hour. The BMP turn up there. This is going on probably for about half an hour or so. I don't know
02:25:12 don't know what triggered the rush who actually rushed in
02:25:18 rushed in and then our stewards as they came from on the right of me if I'm here looking out from my right the stewards our stewards are on the other side of the road and they basically see an opportunity to get amongst the BMP and
02:25:30 opportunity to get amongst the BMP and they effectively as you can see the idea that it was some huge big violent confrontation is just not true. I mean I live near the old West Ham football ground and there was much worse stuff than that going on every every weekend and there is now at the Olympic Park.
02:25:44 and there is now at the Olympic Park. But it was the Y stewards was it that that came from the right over to the uh BNP. So So would you accept then that that is like a a a a
02:25:55 accept then that that is like a a a a confrontational attack on the BMP people that were stood there by the stewards? The way I would describe that is that as I said there had been terrible racist attacks, four racist attacks, young Asian men near
02:26:10 racist attacks, young Asian men near death fighting for their lives. I don't know if the inquiry has seen the photographs of Kudis Alley and the way he was beaten by a gang in a park just
02:26:21 he was beaten by a gang in a park just off Bethyl Green Road and they were the C C18 had intimidated that community, the Bengali community. they were active
02:26:33 the Bengali community. they were active and the BMP there was a there was a a&L petitioning event which some of our people also attended and they were beaten up
02:26:36 beaten up and so are you saying then that the the stewards
02:26:37 stewards um
02:26:44 um approaching the BMP on the other side of the road it was it was justified essentially I think it was I think it was um I think it was uh lawful violence I think it was about self-defense about defending the
02:26:55 about self-defense about defending the community and it was about um and it was basically they ran through them and they chased them away. That is what happened
02:27:07 chased them away. That is what happened and from the footage that's what you can see.
02:27:10 see. And was that pre-planned then? Was that something that you had knowledge of?
02:27:20 something that you had knowledge of? I had no knowledge of it at all. Uh I think um Lewis gave evidence yesterday of being surprised. You can see we're just standing there doing the normal sort of protest and um and then uh and then I think that they they came along.
02:27:32 then I think that they they came along. They were a group of white workingclass men and um and I think the police thought, "Oh, we'll let them into this side with the BMP because they look like the BMP," which is really badly stereotyping white working-class men
02:27:44 stereotyping white working-class men actually. And then they went in there and they chased them off. Was was Lewis part of that group? From what I can remember, and again, I'm trying hard to remember
02:28:04 and again, I'm trying hard to remember what happened. I'm pretty sure that that Lewis was with me. I mean, it'd be good to have a look and see if you can see the Kingsway banner, but I'm pretty sure that he was with us on the static process behind. You can see we've got a metal
02:28:20 metal Yeah. barrier. So, who then was in that away team? Being very very careful about names and looking at the cipher list if if you need to. Um,
02:28:33 Um, I can't I can't remember now um exactly who it if if I saw the footage maybe, but you can't really identify people from the footage, so I can't really remember.
02:28:35 remember. Um,
02:28:45 Um, were you aware of somebody called um uh Anthony or Bobby Lewis? No.
02:28:50 No. Uh, known as a DJ, Bobby McGee. No.
02:28:52 No. Have [laughter] you heard of Have you heard of HN78? I know a song about Bobby McGee. Have you heard of HN78? Are you familiar with who that is? Undercover officer.
02:29:06 Undercover officer. Is that is uh Are we allowed Are you allowed to give me their name? Uh their is it
02:29:07 is it Trevor Morris? Yeah. I I've read obviously I've read all the do a lot of the documents of the inquiry and I can't remember Trevor Morris. I can't remember ever seeing him
02:29:19 Morris. I can't remember ever seeing him or come seeing him or coming across him. Okay.
02:29:21 Okay. Um,
02:29:30 do you agree with what we heard on the on the footage there of the commentator saying that the away the away team claimed that they had achieved their aim of attacking and driving the BNP off the streets?
02:29:40 streets? Was that the aim of No, I don't agree with that. I think I would say and we've said it and we said it publicly that the anti-racist movement and the Bengali community and the
02:29:55 and the Bengali community and the organization known as youth connection which was a big organization of Bangladeshi youth that was set up in response to the BMP or to the racist attacks in that area. We said that the
02:30:14 attacks in that area. We said that the community and anti-racist organizations cleared and the BMP from that area and they they uh and and they never came back. That's what we said. We know that uh Peter Francis has said in his witness statement, I don't need to bring it up, but for the record, it's paragraph 431.
02:30:29 paragraph 431. Um that RE had an appetite for violence. Do you do you accept that? No, I don't accept that. The the [clears throat] why let's be clear about this. I I talked about Hannah and I
02:30:40 this. I I talked about Hannah and I having on our desk in our Y office. We sat with two a desk facing each other and we literally had piles of these little red cards that young people were filling in and they were predominantly teenagers, FE students, six form students. Um, and all of our money to
02:30:52 students. Um, and all of our money to fund the Y of which we got a lot was all from National Union of Teachers, Unison, Rail Workers unions. That's that's
02:31:06 Rail Workers unions. That's that's that's what the Y was the idea that's been portrayed by the media and it's because they can't they can't understand or they can't uh they don't they can't see it as anything else other than this small violent group. We've obviously
02:31:18 small violent group. We've obviously it's just not true. It was a huge if if I could just say we've looked at Welling we've looked at um the the BMP uh Brick Lane incident. Um, and Peter
02:31:32 uh Brick Lane incident. Um, and Peter Francis does say in his statement, and it's at paragraph 534, I don't need to display it, but he does say the worst violence I witnessed was the violence at Welling. I do not believe I saw violence at that level
02:31:43 believe I saw violence at that level again on such a scale. I did see the
02:31:54 again on such a scale. I did see the same sort of fighting going on between the police and demonstrators at other events, but it was on a much smaller scale. So, obviously during this inquiry, we're looking at those incidents. But can you give us a sense of how uh regular they were or how few and far between they were? You know, what was the level of public disorder
02:32:10 what was the level of public disorder that you recall from those years under which you were reported on? Yeah. So the vast majority of what we did there was no uh violence of any kind. So we had lobbies. I've explained this. We had how many? 27
02:32:24 I've explained this. We had how many? 27 lobbies of Beexley Council. Some of them were hairy because there were huge great
02:32:38 were hairy because there were huge great big skin heads waving bottles in my face um when we were saying the BMP needs to be closed down. Um so so the vast majority of of of stuff that we organized there was no disorder apart from us being threatened.
02:32:49 from us being threatened. Um, you know, I talked about Elton, what happened there with the BMP on the corners and Derek Beacon giving given the Nazi salute and then chasing us through Elton. And how often would you have pre-event negotiations with the
02:33:03 have pre-event negotiations with the police? So, you said you had a pre-event negotiation uh before Welling and a pre-event negotiation with the police before the Brick Lane incident. Yeah. Yeah.
02:33:15 Yeah. Yeah. How would you always have a negotiation with the police and let them know what your plans were? Um, yeah. I can't think of one of the I can't think of a demonstration around that time for all of the big
02:33:26 around that time for all of the big events where we didn't meet with the police. Actually, I can't think of one of them. I mean, every lobby of Beexy Council, the police knew about it. Um, Elton, Kidbrook, Welling, they knew
02:33:37 Elton, Kidbrook, Welling, they knew about it. Um and and as I said I it wasn't me that met with the police at Brook Lane. It might have been you know I think another one of our activists that has given a statement a witness
02:33:49 that has given a statement a witness statement to the inquiry but we did have permission for that. So I can't think of any other events any significant big events. I mean, obviously we did lots of campaign stalls and stuff where you
02:34:00 campaign stalls and stuff where you don't need to get police permission, but can you can you think of a an example where there was significant public
02:34:11 where there was significant public disorder where you hadn't previously spoken to the police about it? Uh, no,
02:34:14 Uh, no, I can't.
02:34:21 when you had a demonstration uh or a protest in public, did you predict that there would be public disorder in relation to it? Could you have predicted that there might be
02:34:32 you have predicted that there might be some conflict between the left and the right wings? Uh sorry, what? Say the question again. So, when you're going out and planning
02:34:45 So, when you're going out and planning to protest against a BMP paper sale, for instance, as as we saw on Brick Lane, could you personally have predicted there might be a little bit of trouble here um given what we know about the two sides, you know, or or or do you think
02:34:58 sides, you know, or or or do you think that um uh public disorder would always come as a bit of a surprise and there would need to be some intelligence provided to the police to to let them know about what was going to happen. Um well, as I said, we
02:35:09 Um well, as I said, we in the early days of the campaign to close the BMP headquarters down, we uh were attacked by the BMP in C18. That happened at Welling Library, happened in
02:35:26 happened at Welling Library, happened in Woolage at General Gordon Square. Um and I'm not talking about what happened at Brick Lane where people basically get chased and they trip over and fall. And I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about people being hospitalized and
02:35:38 about people being hospitalized and battered and stitches in their head and people spending several days. That's what happened to our people. It happened to my friend, as I said, who was a radiologist in a big big London hospital. So, so that's
02:35:49 hospital. So, so that's so we learned very quickly that we needed to get some kind of very good
02:36:03 needed to get some kind of very good stewarding set up because we needed to campaign. We needed to protest. We wanted to get the BMP out of a predominantly Bengali area around Brit Lane. Wanted to get the BMP out of Welling because of the terrible things that they were doing. But if we were and I think Lindsay German made this point
02:36:20 I think Lindsay German made this point very well, but if we were asking people to come out and protest, young men and women, as I said, this big group of women from the Glendon estate in Plums did, them and all of their kids were coming to our stuff. If we were going to do that, we had to ensure that people were safe. So, we
02:36:36 ensure that people were safe. So, we took stewarding extremely seriously and that's why we had the stewards that we did. To say that they were a group of pe men that were out of control doing their own thing, preemptive strikes is absolute nonsense. That was never our
02:36:51 absolute nonsense. That was never our method and we would never have supported that. That's not what happened. And in fact, because we had those stewards, I
02:37:02 fact, because we had those stewards, I actually think that they prevented some terrible injuries happening to people. For example, I talked about when the police rushed me at Welling 2 twice and I was on the floor and because of what
02:37:14 I was on the floor and because of what happened on the 8th of May, Welling one, we assigned and you can see them in the film, two stewards to me, one either side, and they made sure that I didn't end up like Judy Watson. I think we're going to talk about ult. We were going home and I didn't have
02:37:29 We were going home and I didn't have Well, we can talk about what happened to my steward on that day and I did get battered by the police. I wasn't protected on that day. So, we took stewarding extremely seriously for all of those reasons.
02:37:41 of those reasons. Earl's court happened on the 15th of the of January 1994. And that was in relation, as we heard from Lewis yesterday, in relation to a
02:37:53 from Lewis yesterday, in relation to a protest against the Blood and Honor gig. And that was at Beckantry. Is that right?
02:37:54 right? Beacon Tree. Beacon Tree. And you traveled there um did you travel there by train? So,
02:38:02 So, uh, I think I I'm trying to remember. I think I've Yeah, I probably got the tube to either Dagenham East or Dagnum or Beacon, I can't remember now, to get there. Yes.
02:38:20 there. Yes. And had you negotiated with police before that? Had you given them a heads up that you were going to protest against the gig? Um, I That's a good question and I can't remember. I but I suspect that we did because
02:38:28 because uh because there was a lot of people and when we got there the police there was a lot of police so I suspect that it was it was pre-arranged with you know that we that we said to the police
02:38:39 we that we said to the police uh the BMP or C18 have got a gig going on in that pub and we're going to have a counterprotest. Um,
02:38:49 Um, as you're making your way to Beacon Tree, the police you see travel by the side of you in a van and they call out to you, don't they? What do you say about that?
02:39:06 What do you say about that? Well, what I say about that is I think well I think I'm absolutely convinced that I was targeted by the police on that day. And my question again for the inquiry which I needs investigating is
02:39:17 inquiry which I needs investigating is what role did undercover police officers play in one trying to create an image that I was a violent person that needed to be contained which was just not true. So, um, what role did they play in setting all of that up? And what what
02:39:32 setting all of that up? And what what what did undercover police officers say to the uniformed police and the riot police on that day that meant that I was targeted. I have no doubt because the
02:39:45 targeted. I have no doubt because the the incident that that you describe, we were walking we got off the train, I think it was tube train to one of those stations nearby to Beacon Tree. We are walking along a main road and the riot
02:39:59 walking along a main road and the riot police were in vans coming alongside us and at our walking pace with the side door open and one of the police officers inside was saying, "Oh, Louise, Louise, we know all about you. Oh, Louise, Louise." So, I said, "Well, first of
02:40:13 Louise." So, I said, "Well, first of all, my name's not Louise, it's Lois." And uh so you got that wrong. And uh this is very worrying. What do you mean
02:40:27 this is very worrying. What do you mean you know all about me? You know, uh what are you playing at? So, police officers acting in a really unprofessional way, deliberately target targeting me, singling me out early on on the day. Do you want me to go on and describe what happened? Well, first off, I think there were about 400 500 pro protesters that day.
02:40:47 about 400 500 pro protesters that day. Yeah. Is that right? And was was it uh a protest just against the gig or were you trying to prevent the gig from actually happening? Uh well it was a pro it I mean it was a protest against the gig. We would have liked to have stopped it from happening just from having sheer numbers and being outside our method was all be outside
02:41:01 outside our method was all be outside the door and don't let them in so they can't have their gig but actually I think they canled it and didn't turn up because the c the counter process was so was [clears throat] was big you know and so this is on a Saturday coming up to evening time and [clears throat]
02:41:18 to evening time and [clears throat] at that time what was your plan once it was cancelled where were you all going to go
02:41:26 to go so so this is about 1 or 2 o'clock I think 3:00 We're in Beacon Tree. We get we have a sort of rally. I was on the
02:41:38 we have a sort of rally. I was on the megaphone, other people on the megaphone making speeches. We are then surrounded or kettled, but I don't think people really use the term kettled then. Kettled by right police and told we are not allowed to leave. So I again with a couple of others was
02:41:51 I again with a couple of others was trying to negotiate with the police and saying what are you talking about? C18 have not turned up. We all want to go home.
02:41:55 home. They told us that we were not allowed to go home and I think in one of the statements that I've read says that we um we chose to go on a train to El C. That's
02:42:08 That's we can bring that up. That's UCPI 29708.
02:42:12 It's behind B7.
02:42:21 So this is a report on the court incident um 18th of January 1994
02:42:27 and page four of that.
02:42:34 [clears throat]
02:42:44 We can see here that once the group arrived at Beckantry, they discovered that the gig had been cancelled and their intelligence suggested that there was a fight that there was fighting going on in Bow Road be between skin heads and anti-fascists. Negotiations
02:42:55 heads and anti-fascists. Negotiations were entered into between Lewis Austin and the group's the group spokesperson and police and Austin rather naively accepted transport on a special train
02:43:06 accepted transport on a special train towards Bow Road to join the fry. What do you say about that? Was there a sense that oh, we'll all jump on a train and we'll go down to Bow Road for a fight?
02:43:20 we'll go down to Bow Road for a fight? Absolutely not. And that that that thing about suggesting that there was fighting in Bow between anti-fascists. I have no recollection of that whatsoever. We wanted to go home and I that is just not true. And then this thing. So I did
02:43:37 not true. And then this thing. So I did enter into negotiations with the police to get them to allow us out of this kettle. And then it says naively accepted transport on a special train. It's absolute rubbish towards bow road to join the frey. We were told at that point by the police that you cannot
02:43:50 point by the police that you cannot leave. You are not leaving this area by any other method than getting on a tube train that we've got for you from Beaconree which is going to take you to Victoria. So we were saying well we
02:44:02 Victoria. So we were saying well we don't live in Victoria. We don't go to Victoria. They said that is how you are leaving this area. There was absolutely it would not have been possible to go to bow road because the police had told us that we were going to Victoria. We had
02:44:17 that we were going to Victoria. We had no choice. So they the police coraled us and this is really important because this this is this is a a real abuse by the police. It really really is. They coraled us onto a tube train. Um they
02:44:35 coraled us onto a tube train. Um they once we was on the tube train, the train whizzed through every single station on the district line until it got to Victoria. When and the train the train was packed. Many people were standing. We get to Victoria and the train stops and we
02:44:46 Victoria and the train stops and we think, "Oh, well, at least we're now getting off at Victoria." They did not open the doors. We could see everybody on the platform looking in wondering what the hell was going on. I think Lewis said yesterday that you were
02:44:59 Lewis said yesterday that you were banging on the doors trying to let them know that you were stuck on the train. We were banging on saying the police have imprisoned us on this train. You know, you need to tell people, ring the media, ring ring politicians and tell them that the police have imprisoned
02:45:13 them that the police have imprisoned protesters on a train. I'm so glad I've got the opportunity to say all this in this forum. Then they don't. So So then the train moves off Victoria station and goes to Cook. There's some detail that I've missed out actually because while
02:45:26 I've missed out actually because while the train the it's a district line train while it's going from Beacon Tree the district line at that part of East London is above ground. So as we're going along from Beacon Tree through those outer east London stations, I
02:45:40 those outer east London stations, I think we run parallel. I think it's the A13
02:45:44 A13 run parallel to a major A- road and the police vans from Beacon was zooming along the A13 alongside us. And it's
02:45:58 along the A13 alongside us. And it's only at the point at which they all then end up at OS Court that we realize that they had gone from Beacon Tree and zoomed along and it was a trap. They had planned it. It was orchestrated. The train goes on from uh this is such a
02:46:13 The train goes on from uh this is such a big example of police misconduct. So the train goes from Victoria to Court. We get off at they open the doors at Call. We think I think Hannah with Hannah we all think oh thank god well a bloody
02:46:26 all think oh thank god well a bloody long way to get home from court but we can get home from court. So we start we get off the train there is riot police everywhere at court station on all the
02:46:39 everywhere at court station on all the platforms on the escalators. So we start to move off. We're still we're very naive. How naive were we? I just thought you know oh they've brought all these police here. They just want to you know
02:46:54 police here. They just want to you know make sure we go where we're supposed to be going. and go home. As we go up the escalators, the escalators were lined with right police on one side. So, you're on the right and the right police are on the left.
02:47:06 are on the left. Um, then they start they run a mock in the station and on the platforms. And the British Transport Police were so shocked that the British Transport Police were going, "Get out the back. Get out the back to people on the platforms." And so, so were there any other members of the public [clears throat] in the
02:47:18 the public [clears throat] in the station at the time when you got off the train? Not ordinary members of the public. I can't remember. I got to I think it was probably cleared. I can't I can't I can't remember, but I'm absolutely sure. I mean, there were so many of us, but there was British
02:47:31 many of us, but there was British Transport Police. I can remember seeing them, and I can remember them thinking, "What the hell's going on here?" Then we get Do you want me to carry on? Yep.
02:47:40 Yep. So, then we get to the top of the escalators. I've got uh these right police on side of me, one big blonde fella grinning at me. Um, we get to the top. There's already ripe police at the
02:47:51 top. There's already ripe police at the top of the station running a m muck and hitting people with tunchons on the top of the head. Then, uh, they pull open the gates and we run out onto the road
02:48:06 the gates and we run out onto the road court in front of the station. I run out and
02:48:08 and so when when sorry to interrupt when you say they pulled open the gates had the gates at the top of the escalators, the general exit that had been closed. So again, blocking exits. So everyone comes up the escalator. People are in the top
02:48:21 up the escalator. People are in the top of the station where the ticket machines or whatever are the right place running around hitting people. Very young people, teenage girls and stuff. Then they open the doors. We all rush out. We turn to look back in.
02:48:35 all rush out. We turn to look back in. And then they shut the doors again and they're hitting people inside. And then I was on the megaphone saying, "Open the doors. Open the doors. Let people out. This is dangerous. Open the doors. Then
02:48:51 This is dangerous. Open the doors. Then they open the doors and then they charge us again. And that that's when I got battered. So they charge huge men. I'm not talking about little
02:49:04 huge men. I'm not talking about little tiny paw herand. I'm talking about big [laughter] I'm talking about big men with bats and riot shields. So were these riot police or were these uniformed police?
02:49:15 uniformed police? They were riot police. And they charge us and I get whack. I got whacked on the top of the head with a tunchon. Why are police hitting protesters on the top of the head with tunchons? Was there violence coming from the protesters? No. From the train towards the police?
02:49:40 From the train towards the police? No, we were going home. We were relaxed. We thought it was all over. Our stewards that have got this huge reputation were all relaxed and chilled. We thought it was the end of the day. In fact, how naive were we? Uh in ter in terms of in terms of Lewis's evidence yesterday, he said pulling out
02:49:51 evidence yesterday, he said pulling out from uh Victoria by that time at least, yeah,
02:49:55 yeah, there was a definite um sense of
02:49:57 sense of discomfort on the train to put it mildly. People were very uh unsure about what was happening. Um you're saying people were calm.
02:50:10 people were calm. Was it a sense of a relief that you were you were actually going to get off the train at some point or Well, once they let us off, I mean, when you're on a train and you're packed in and there's no announcements, it doesn't stop apart from at Victoria, but then it moves on again, we're thinking, "What
02:50:21 moves on again, we're thinking, "What the hell's going on?" And by this time, we hadn't load been to the toilet for a very long time. Didn't have water. So, we're all thinking, "What the hell's
02:50:33 we're all thinking, "What the hell's going on?" Once we got off the train, we did think, "Oh, it's the end. They finally let us off. we can go home. So, we was all relaxed. Um, we're going up the escalators and I remember thinking,
02:50:44 the escalators and I remember thinking, "Oh, this is a bit odd. Why are they all here? What are they doing here?" I can only say we were naive. I mean, because I must really, we should have been thinking they're all here. They followed us. They're in full riot gear.
02:50:55 followed us. They're in full riot gear. We've got nothing but bags of leaflets.
02:51:04 We've got nothing but bags of leaflets. So, we get, as I said, so then we get to the top. The doors open and close. I'm outside. I'm looking back in saying, "Open the doors." Then they rush forward. And as they rush, I reckon a dozen right police went for me and I get whacked on top of the head. Blood streaming down my face. I fall to the
02:51:19 streaming down my face. I fall to the ground. My friend Julie, who's mentioned in my witness statement, Julie Donovan
02:51:29 in my witness statement, Julie Donovan jumps on top of me and starts screaming, "Leave her alone. Leave her alone. Get off her. Get off her." And then they were punching me and kicking me and whacking me. um 12 and I get upset when I talk about it because it's very distressing. 12 huge great big police
02:51:43 distressing. 12 huge great big police and it is when I think about it now it's utterly disgraceful that that went on and it went on in darkness. I think it was deliberate. They took us from
02:51:55 was deliberate. They took us from Beaconree to ult and when it got dark we all got beaten up and I was then my friend Julie took me into like a sort of Turkish
02:52:04 Turkish North Africa. You say it was dark. I'm just thinking about the timing. So you said it was about 1 or 2:00 when you were in Beacon Tree. By the time you
02:52:15 were in Beacon Tree. By the time you were coralled put on the train by the time you got out at um Earl's Court obviously this is January so it's getting dark by that time. Is that right?
02:52:24 right? But presumably the the uh the train station and the street outside was lit. Was that was there not lighting? What do you mean by it was dark? It was lit, but it was it was dark. It was a dark night. It was a January
02:52:35 was a dark night. It was a January evening and I can remember it very very vividly because I was supposed to be meeting my parents at the ballet to see the Nutcracker. The big joke after that was Lois was meant to be at the
02:52:46 was Lois was meant to be at the Nutcracker, but she ended up getting her nutcracked, which wasn't so [laughter] funny. It is funny now. And and you're quite clear in your statement that you felt that you were directly targeted. What what specifically was it that made you feel you were directly targeted.
02:52:59 you were directly targeted. So I was targeted because the police at the start of the day were calling out my name and we know all about you all, Louise. We know all about you. When I'm going up the escalator, I've got a policeman grinning at me. And then when we get to the top, when they rush out,
02:53:13 we get to the top, when they rush out, a gang of them rush towards me and they bash me to the floor. Uh they were they were beating up other people, but they
02:53:24 were beating up other people, but they made a beline for me and I'm absolutely convinced of it. And also, can I say one last thing about my steward because I did have a steward assigned to me all day,
02:53:35 day, Dan Gilman. And he's going to give evidence, I know, this afternoon. And Dan had been arrested just before I got attacked. And I don't think that that was an accident. I think that because in Welling I had stewards who
02:53:49 because in Welling I had stewards who jumped on my back every time the police tried to attack me and they protected me. And Dan was on that day. I said to Dan, "You stick with me." And you know, if the police try to batter me with a
02:54:02 if the police try to batter me with a tunchon, can you be there, please, and try and stop it from happening? Do do you think you were targeted because of who you were? Because you were Lois Austin, or is it did you still have the uh high viz vest on and the
02:54:16 have the uh high viz vest on and the megaphone? Were you shouting things to the the crowd that maybe drew their attention to you? I was shouting. I don't know if I had still had a high viz vest on. I don't know if I did, but I did have a megaphone, but we hadn't been using it. We've been on a train. It was down at my arm like this. I was just
02:54:28 down at my arm like this. I was just carrying it home. But I only used it again when we got when I got out of the tube station. I looked back in, they closed the gates and then I used it to say, "Open the gates. Open the gates.
02:54:44 say, "Open the gates. Open the gates. It's dangerous. It's dangerous. Open the gates. Let people out." And um that's the only time I used it again. But I think they targeted me because I was a leader of the YR because I was organizing all this stuff and they
02:54:55 organizing all this stuff and they wanted to intimidate me, get me out the way and stop me from doing it. And again, that's political policing. That's outrageous in a democratic society. Why are we why are we not allowed to protest without being in fear of our lives in
02:55:08 without being in fear of our lives in terms of police brutality? It's uh you know and and and why are they targeting leaders of campaigns like y andl it's utterly disgraceful women me and Julie
02:55:23 utterly disgraceful women me and Julie Watson Julie Watson's 5 foot I'm 5 foot4 and I was attacked by what 12 guys and and while they was attacking me the last thing I'll say sorry the last thing I'll say it's all right it's absolutely fine
02:55:34 say it's all right it's absolutely fine to have your evidence but we are limited on time
02:55:38 on time while they were battering me so they were booting me kicking me and whacking me with tanchions and while they doing it. They were calling me an effing cu n t an effing uh slag, calling me the worst misogynistic, sexist, abusive
02:55:53 worst misogynistic, sexist, abusive names you could possibly imagine. And we know now that there's we that it's been proven that there's institutional sexism as long as well as racism in the Metropolitan Police. I know it's absolutely nothing to the intimate sexual relationships that my comrades
02:56:06 sexual relationships that my comrades over there and others have have had to, you know, were put through. It's nothing compared to that. But it was still extremely
02:56:17 extremely abusive and upsetting. And I ended up in hospital getting my head glued back together. And I can remember being in Chelsea and Westminster Hospital and about 30 protesters all lined up with head injuries. Why are the Metropolitan
02:56:31 head injuries. Why are the Metropolitan Police whacking people across the top of the head? Because they will kill somebody. Lindsay German in her evidence said she saw she's been on demonstrations where two people were killed. Why are they whacking people
02:56:42 killed. Why are they whacking people across the top of the heads? By the way, that's why we had to wear hard hats to protect our heads from the riot police. And I remember a nurse. Is that something that came in after? It came in after May the 8th. That's why we've got hard hats on at wearing two.
02:56:57 we've got hard hats on at wearing two. But when I was in Have you been wearing hard hats? Sorry to go back. No, at um uh Brick Lane. No, I don't think we were. I don't think we were because I think we were probably weren't it was an
02:57:11 were probably weren't it was an occupation of a area. I don't think we was expecting anything anything to happen there. But I just want to make a point about in in terms of in terms of helmets, we did you have a helmet at uh Brick Lane
02:57:24 did you have a helmet at uh Brick Lane or did you pick up a helmet or were the BMP people wearing helmets? No, I think I can remember one BMP uh
02:57:31 uh uh member opposite us. One was waving a camera around, taking photographs of us, and one was waving his motorbike helmet around.
02:57:43 around. Was it Was it a white one? Was it a white one that we saw on the video? It was just on the floor on the video. I can't remember. I think so. You might have to show me the video again. But but the point I was going to make about Chelsea in Westminster Hospital is the nurse who stitched who glued my head
02:57:56 nurse who stitched who glued my head back together again said to me, she said to me, "Why are the police hitting people across the top of the head? Do they not know they will kill somebody doing that?"
02:58:15 Um, in terms of court, I think you brought a civil action, didn't you, against the police and that was se found in your favor?
02:58:18 favor? Yeah. So, Sadi Khn, Luis Christian, and then Sadi Khn, who's now mayor of London, were my lawyers at the time and um, yeah, and and and uh, we got I got a settlement. Yeah.
02:58:30 settlement. Yeah. Okay. Um I want to move on now to instances where you are reported on personally. Other instances not to do with public order. Uh the first one is behind tab B41 and that's MPS 0246670
02:58:46 at page one.
02:58:54 Sorry, just before we move off from court, can I go back to the document we were in before? Um if you need the Oh, you've got it. Yeah, just wanted to ask you um about this. Halfway down that first paragraph, it says once the train dubbed the Red Express, probably
02:59:10 dubbed the Red Express, probably reference to communism, is it redness or socialism? It dubbed by which train? The train that the police put us on. Put you on. Yeah, we never dubbed it that. I think that's that's the police banter. Back room banter. Yeah. Um once the train
02:59:22 room banter. Yeah. Um once the train dubbed the Red Express arrived and the demonstrators including a number of ANL activists who were in the vicinity had boarded it, it became clear that the police had no intention of delivering
02:59:34 police had no intention of delivering their charges to Bow Road and the train went non-stop to court. There was some conf confrontation with police at Court station and at least seven members of the group including Lois Austin
02:59:49 the group including Lois Austin sustained injuries. And then it goes on to say, "The special train ploy to remove this violent group was brilliantly conceived and executed, but it will not work again." The sense that it was a ploy by the police to get a violent group out of
03:00:04 police to get a violent group out of Beacon Tree. What do you say about that? We were not a violent group. There was no violence. We had a huge big peaceful demonstration. We were kettled. We were coralled and forced onto a train. Bow road was never part of I do not even
03:00:20 road was never part of I do not even remember that it was never it was always that this
03:13:02 And it goes on, the SDS were able to provide intelligence about these people and organizations. Peter Francis was of particular assistance with regard to
03:13:15 particular assistance with regard to militant labor's hierarchy. And um it goes on to mention the fact that information was provided um following on from your support of Lisa Tosha for her application for leave to remain.
03:13:26 remain. So again a specific comprehensive made in relation to you your activity within Y.
03:13:34 Y. Um
03:13:37 these are special branch reports
03:13:45 and information by the home office used for an alternative purpose uh uh
03:13:56 for an alternative purpose uh uh immigration purpose is being compiled in relation to you. Um do you want to comment briefly on that? Um
03:14:02 yeah, again um why are undercover officers um linking up with other government
03:14:13 linking up with other government departments and giving them information? Um I I find it as worrying for example as um undercover officers so special branch colluding with private sector blacklisting organizations and giving them information about some of our
03:14:25 them information about some of our members and activists. Um I think it shouldn't have happened. I think the inquiry needs to investigate it. I'd like to move on then to general reporting on y and militant or the
03:14:39 reporting on y and militant or the socialist party as it was known from 1996.
03:14:48 1996. Um there are numerous reports that have been disclosed to you that um you make reference to paragraph 5.6 of your witness statement. Um I just want to refer to a few of them just to see the type of reports that were being
03:15:01 type of reports that were being submitted uh in relation to you and your group. The first I'd like to display is MPS074874.
03:15:06 [snorts] It's behind tab B28.
03:15:13 It's an event performer from the 7th of November 1994 and it concerns the London Militant Labor Conference and it essentially
03:15:24 Labor Conference and it essentially provides details of the organizational setup, campaigns, resolutions
03:15:33 and resolutions passed. This is the document I think we referred to earlier. Yeah.
03:15:39 at 074874
03:15:51 behind 28. Behind tab uh 28
03:16:01 0745 Oh, sorry. 45 0745874.
03:16:13 So I missed out the five. Thank you. Just if we can run through this document.
03:16:27 It's a six page report. We can see it's militant labor. Um it's a conference. We've looked at it in relation to resolution five which was on page um three. [snorts] We can see it looks at elections. Next page
03:16:38 page campaigns. The next page
03:16:46 um talks about uh youth against racism in Europe
03:16:56 and over the next page and student work. And we can see a list of names. You're you're at the top and there's a a list of uh further names and the last page then please
03:17:10 I can see who who who attended the next document.
03:17:16 Oh, sorry. If we can go back please to page six,
03:17:24 we can see that the last par the last paragraph of the report.
03:17:31 In conclusion, a debate of some interest took place on the Sunday afternoon when the question was raised as to whether ML should conceal the fact that it is really a revolutionary group bent on the overthrow of the capitalist state. Given
03:17:44 overthrow of the capitalist state. Given its relationship with the lab the Labour Party had been sorry given its relationship with the Labour Party had been severed so unceremoniously. It was perhaps no surprise when it was decided
03:17:56 perhaps no surprise when it was decided that the message should be shouted from the rooftops in true Troskiest uh tradition. This apart from the weekend uh offered little to sorry this this
03:18:14 uh offered little to sorry this this this apart the weekend offered little uh to interest a normal person. [laughter] Um
03:18:22 Um little of interest apart from the fact that you've decided uh as a group to shout uh about your uh uh intent to overthrow the capitalist state. What do you say about that?
03:18:33 you say about that? Well, there was a point I'm not sure what year I know you said it what year this was, but there was a point when um November 1994.
03:18:50 November 1994. 94. Yeah. when so so we had uh left the Labour party probably 9192 and there was a point at which in the early mid '9s that we said right okay we need to launch as an open socialist organization uh you know recruit and build that
03:19:03 uh you know recruit and build that organization in its own right and um and I'm a socialist and the socialist party is a socialist organization and we want a transformation of society I don't think there's anyone in this room that doesn't agree that there's something wrong with the society that we live in
03:19:14 wrong with the society that we live in when the Middle East is in flames and uh and there's environmental destructure. N destruction and 9 million people in this country live in poverty. So we do want
03:19:26 country live in poverty. So we do want to change society and we would we want a socialist society and there's many many struggles on the way we think to getting that which are campaigns against racism campaigns for jobs campaigns to build
03:19:42 campaigns for jobs campaigns to build council housing to reports were on isn't it these reports were were showing that this is the sort of thing you were reporting on I want to move on because we're coming close to to lunchtime if I can show um the next document which is UCPI 37 7223.
03:19:59 It's a a document that was added into the bundle. It's a Roman numeral one one. It's a gist. Um and we can see that in late 1995 uh the security service and NPS
03:20:10 uh the security service and NPS discussed militant labor and uh youth against racism in Europe. November 1995, the security service provided NPS with a list of individuals in militant labor
03:20:28 list of individuals in militant labor HQ, some of whom were linked with our Y. The security service requested details and comments. In August 1996, following receipt of a report from MPS, the security service provided comments on the information contained in that report and the
03:20:42 contained in that report and the security service also provided MPS with another list of individuals within militant labor HQ. At that time, the security service emphasized that public order was the domain of the police. The individuals on whom Peter Francis
03:20:54 individuals on whom Peter Francis reported included Lois Austin, Judy Bashon, Privacy, Francis Curran, Lisa Tosha, Dan Gilman. What
03:21:07 Tosha, Dan Gilman. What at this point in late 1995, they're still looking for individuals uh who are linked to militant. Um what do you say about that? So this is a
03:21:20 do you say about that? So this is a security service asking special branch SDS
03:21:23 SDS to get information on members of the militant. Yeah. Well, I think it's outrageous. I think there's nothing in our paper, in our magazines that doesn't
03:21:34 our paper, in our magazines that doesn't say exactly what we are, who we are, and what we stand for, and why we want people to join us. Um and again it is it's political policing and it's the
03:21:45 it's political policing and it's the state the security services operating in an unbiased uh sorry in a biased way um in a in a way that's that's not neutral. Why why are the security services
03:21:57 Why why are the security services getting involved with special branch to infiltrate and subvert organizations which are supposed to be tolerated in a democratic society. I think it's outrageous. And I think it needs to be investigated.
03:22:11 investigated. Um, which we are doing as part of the inquiry.
03:22:14 inquiry. MI5 aren't here, are they? They're giving evidence. Well, uh, if I can move on. We don't have that much longer. [laughter] They should be. Uh, behind tab B33, UCPI 34435.
03:22:40 Um, a page three, please. This is a militant labor annual conference in Morham. It's the 6th of February, 1996.
03:22:58 Um, and again, it's reporting on the inner workings of the group. Page seven, please, relates to British pers perspectives.
03:23:12 And we can see under the title about halfway down British pers perspectives um youth work there's reference to Hannisel Lois Austin and it says that the session was notable only because it contained the only reference to black and Asian activity or race issues of the entire conference.
03:23:36 race issues of the entire conference. And if we can go to a further document behind tab 36, UCPI 0246 222.
03:23:46 That's UCPI
03:23:54 246222. Sorry, MPS0246.
03:24:01 This is a a a Y conference in London on the 30th of March 1996. The date of the report is the 1st of May 96.
03:24:13 And we can see here paragraph three that Yre has five separate campaigns.
03:24:25 that Yre has five separate campaigns. It's an anti-Nazi, anti-British National Party campaign, a campaign against the immigration and asylum bill, justice campaigns, a show racism in football the red card campaign, and racism in schools. In relation to the justice campaigns in
03:24:41 relation to the justice campaigns in support of those who have suffered at the hands of the police andor the judiciary,
03:24:57 judiciary, um that was the third campaign. Um it suggests that militant labor leaders view that as largely pointless. Um but it can't be ignored. Um these are
03:25:03 these are largely campaigns that address racism in the community and this is the a principal area that the SDS have chosen to infiltrate.
03:25:14 to infiltrate. What do you say about that very briefly please? What? That the SDS have chosen to infiltrate justice campaigns? No, that they're reporting on Y who campaigns on these issues. Um
03:25:26 Um uh well again why are they reporting on Y that campaigns on these issues? It's it's completely it was completely right
03:25:39 it's completely it was completely right was an anti-racist organiz organization. They were family campaigns such as um Roland Adams campaign, Steven Lawrence campaign. Although we weren't directly involved in that, but you know, we did talk about it at meetings and events. Um there were other justice
03:25:53 events. Um there were other justice campaigns like M253, the Oliver Campbell campaign who has since been completely acquitted by the way and we campaigned for him. We said it was a miscarriage of justice. It was right that did that work and you know we supported the Winston
03:26:05 and you know we supported the Winston Silkot family campaign. I addressed many meetings alongside George Silcott, Winston Silcott's brother. So that was primarily your your focus and it was young people young people largely was it that were focusing on
03:26:20 that were focusing on it was it wasn't primarily it was part of what yre was doing we were also doing the schools pack we set up show racism the red card which is now the number one uh anti-racist campaign on the football grounds um and that was a fantastic campaign that really tried to target
03:26:33 campaign that really tried to target where organized farright and fascist groups were trying to recruit young men to their calls We were we we set that campaign up to counter them.
03:26:44 campaign up to counter them. Thank you very much. I'm going to have to move on. The last thing I want to talk to you about or ask you about are some of the general allegations against Peter Francis. So, okay,
03:26:51 okay, very quickly, um there's what you say in your witness statement at paragraph 12.2 too is that
03:27:03 statement at paragraph 12.2 too is that when Peter Francis was withdrawing from the group, um the Hackne branch of Militant Labor arranged a collection for him to raise money for him to buy furniture because he seemed a bit down and out effectively. Um, but in his witness
03:27:18 effectively. Um, but in his witness statement, and we can bring this up, it's UCPI 3612
03:27:34 at page 101, paragraph 6 uh 614. His his account is he explains that he sold the contents of his cover flat together with items he claimed to have stolen from his cover employer at a hackne car boot sale
03:27:45 hackne car boot sale and gave all of the proceeds to militant.
03:27:52 militant. Isn't that what happened? That's why he didn't have uh furniture at the time because he sold it all off. He was moving away um and he gave the proceeds uh to militant. I don't know about that and I don't think that's true. You'll
03:28:05 and I don't think that's true. You'll have to ask him. I don't think that's true. My recollection and I wasn't directly involved in Hackne was that everybody felt sorry for him that they
03:28:18 everybody felt sorry for him that they thought that he was, as you say, down on his luck. He didn't have much money. He was having a personal crisis. And when they went into his flat and it was bare and he had hardly anything, they had a collection for him. Um, and I think he
03:28:32 collection for him. Um, and I think he even talks about what nice people they all were in Hatne and they gave him a card and everything else. So I don't know anything about him. I gave all the proceeds of the sale to militant and then took off on the run. You you can't you can't I don't know if that's true that if he gave any
03:28:48 gave any in terms of whether P Francis had a sexual relationship, were you aware if he was in a sexual relationship with somebody or had sex with members of the uh militant group or Yre group? No, not aware of. No, not at all.
03:29:01 No, not aware of. No, not at all. If if you weren't aware that he had sex with people, did that lead you to be suspicious about him, that perhaps he wasn't who he said he was or perhaps he was a a state agent?
03:29:16 was a a state agent? No, not at all. That is ridiculous. The idea that I or anybody else in the leadership of y or militant knew about the sex lives and how many who who was having sex with who is ridiculous and it I mean we're we're a very very
03:29:29 I mean we're we're a very very workingclass organization full of ordinary people in trade unions and things like that. We are you know I I have seen reports about the wearies
03:29:41 have seen reports about the wearies being promiscuous and all of that. The undercovers have said that and if you didn't weren't having lots of sex then your cover would be blown. What what's absolute and utter nonsense. Uh we are we I would not have even known if he if
03:29:53 we I would not have even known if he if he was having sex or who he was and was not having sex with and it wouldn't have interested me in the slightest. Does interest me if he was an undercover officer infiltrate infiltrating our organization and deceiving women into
03:30:08 organization and deceiving women into intimate sexual relationships. That's abuse. That would interest me. But I don't but I have no evidence of that. I don't know if that happened. Did you know where his cover uh employment was? Did you know he worked at a school?
03:30:29 at a school? Um I I think I sort of knew that at the time and when I've read these documents, it's made me think, oh yes, I sort of knew that. Okay.
03:30:30 Okay. But I can't. Did you ever have to get in touch with him uh uh when he wasn't at the branch office? Did you did you go to his home? Did you call him on his landline? No.
03:30:42 Did you call him on his landline? No. What did you do if you needed to get in touch with Peter Francis? Well, I never needed to get in touch with him directly. I through the Hackne branch. No. And they would have mobilized their Hatne people.
03:30:54 mobilized their Hatne people. Do you accept that there are some things that Peter Francis says are true and have been proven to be true and have been exposed as part of this inquiry
03:31:07 been exposed as part of this inquiry and and as part of his whistleblowing. I think when he says we were very nice people I think he says that doesn't he and he was touched. I think that's true. [laughter] Um I uh trying to think I
03:31:20 [laughter] Um I uh trying to think I can't not really I think I think I would say that reading his statement his witness statement that it's exaggerated
03:31:36 witness statement that it's exaggerated that he tries to present us as a big or lots of us or some of us as as violent and needed to be reported on. I think that is a wild exaggeration. I think it doesn't I think it that is not true.
03:31:49 not true. But there are he certainly reported on you. There was an SDS. He was managed by people within uh the back office. Uh there were other officers. There were people who were having relationships. There's a lot of what he says that's true. Do you accept that?
03:32:04 true. Do you accept that? Um yeah, I do. And I and and you know it's it's a difficult for us it's a difficult it's difficult because on the one hand he was a whistleblower that has done all done a service to all of us and the public because he's blown the
03:32:17 the public because he's blown the whistle on all these terrible abuses and things that have happened. So for that we are grateful. But we cannot let the things that he has said about us like being violent and confrontational and
03:32:32 being violent and confrontational and looking for trouble and dawn raids. We cannot allow that stuff which is not simply not true and exagger either an exaggeration or untrue and used to justify his deployment. We can't allow that to go unanswered.
03:32:50 that to go unanswered. Do you not see that as an inconsistency that you can't cherry cherrypick his evidence? Well, I think the problem we've got is his evidence is inconsistent. He's in time at times he says we're not violent and then at other times he says that we were violent. And I think a lot
03:33:04 that we were violent. And I think a lot of his evidence is unreliable. That that doesn't mean to say that some of the other stuff that he's said is untrue. He's, you know, he's said stuff about
03:33:16 stuff about uh the S the targets of the SDS. He says stuff about [laughter] okay
03:33:17 okay what MI5 asked him to do. We've we've got his evidence which we can look at. Uh Miss Austin, those are the questions I have for you. Obviously, there is another area of your evidence which
03:33:30 another area of your evidence which relates to the Mayday 2001 demonstration and your civil claim after that in 2005 and in particular in relation to Carlos Sarra and that is something you will be coming back to the inquiry to give evidence about in phase two.
03:33:48 evidence about in phase two. Yeah. So those given those are all the questions I have for Miss Austin, it may be that we have a a very short break, see if there are any more or we come back after lunch and uh have a very short uh evidence from Miss Austin if there are any further questions.
03:33:59 there are any further questions. Well, on the whole there haven't been um rule 10 questions arising of um
03:34:10 rule 10 questions arising of um non-state witnesses. Um but I appreciate that there are one or two undercover officers who are separately representative. Yes, represented who may have um questions [snorts] to put. Is there going to be any re-examination? Highly unlikely, sir.
03:34:23 Highly unlikely, sir. Yes. In which case I what I suggest we do is break for 5 minutes to see if there are any uh rule 10 questions. If there aren't, then we will um adjourn for lunch.
03:34:34 for lunch. I'm very sorry for going over the the normal lunch break time, but I'll rise for five minutes and then come back in. Thank you. All right.
03:38:38 Just one question. Um, it's really a point of clarification. when I asked you about at your uh knowledge if at all of a a plan to burn down the BMP headquarters in Welling. Um I want to clarify that it was suggested by HM43
03:38:50 clarify that it was suggested by HM43 that it was a class war plan, not a Y plan. Do you appreciate that? That I wasn't asking you whether Yre had a plan to burn down the the the bookshop.
03:39:02 to burn down the the the bookshop. All right. Okay. Uh yeah, except that was the question and I had no knowledge of a class war plan to burn down the BMP headquarters bookshop
03:39:17 headquarters bookshop and and HM43 has never suggested that it was Y that planned to do that. Okay.
03:39:17 Okay. To accept that and I had no idea of any plan like that. And actually I think class war were
03:39:29 And actually I think class war were probably not even seriously putting that forward because um I think Lewis described yesterday their magazine being the sort of bo of the left.
03:39:39 left. We heard Lewis's evidence about that. Yeah. [snorts] And stuff like that. So nobody really took them seriously, but also they would have understood that it would have been impossible to do
03:39:51 would have been impossible to do anything like that because there were 7,000 riot police, police on horses, police on motorbikes, and that was never going to happen. If a plan like that had come to my attention, I would have said,
03:40:03 come to my attention, I would have said, "You are not doing that in my community. There's residential houses either side, and I know people who live there, and in fact, my nephews live in the road opposite and go to the local primary school. That is not happening." and that is not how we're going to win this
03:40:17 is not how we're going to win this fight. This is a political struggle to get them out of our area and I would have said don't do it. Thank you very much. So the only other point of clarification is just the
03:40:30 point of clarification is just the pronunciation of Carlos Saraki's name um that I had got wrong during the course of uh my questioning. Yes, if we get everybody's names correct, I will be astonished. Thank you very much for coming to give
03:40:42 Thank you very much for coming to give evidence this morning. Um, as you know, uh, I'm going to ask you to come back. Yes. Later to give evidence about the, uh, Kettling incident on Mayday 2001 and the litigation that you brought, uh,
03:41:01 the litigation that you brought, uh, arising out of it, uh, where, um, uh, it seems that information was provided by Carlo Saraki uh to, um, uh, uh, those instructed by the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. Yeah. And um I'd be grateful if you would assist with that in due
03:41:14 would assist with that in due course. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you very much.
03:41:24 much. Thank you. Uh we will now um adjourn until 10 2. I hope that gives everybody time enough to have lunch. All right.