Hannah Sell, General Secretary of the Socialist Party, gives testimony about Youth Against Racism in Europe (YRE) and Militant Labour. She disputes Peter Francis's characterization of the organizations, explains the defensive purpose of the 'away team' stewarding group, and addresses specific incidents including Brick Lane (Sept 1993) and the Welling Unity March (Oct 1993). Sell rejects claims that YRE was a 'front group' for Militant or that stewards engaged in offensive violence, emphasizing their role was community self-defense against BNP attacks.
00:31:46 Good morning everybody. Uh we begin with um live evidence which will be broadcast after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but
00:31:58 what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're describing. They may not be used for photography or recording. Yes, please. If you'd like to stand and just repeat after me, please. I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare
00:32:11 solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth. The truth. I shall be the truth. The whole truth. The whole truth. And nothing but the truth.
00:32:23 And nothing but the truth. And nothing but the truth. Yes.
00:32:29 Yes. So good morning. Uh Miss Cell, thank you very much for attending to assist the inquiry with our investigations. Uh my questions today are intended to be short and simple, but if you have any
00:32:41 short and simple, but if you have any difficulty understanding them, um please do ask me to repeat or rephrase a question.
00:32:44 question. If you need a break at any point during our evidence, uh please let me know. There will be a midm morning break at around 11:15 11:30.
00:32:55 around 11:15 11:30. Also, may I ask that you keep your voice up so that the transcribers can hear you.
00:32:59 you. Um, you have made two statements to the inquiry, one personal and the other corporate on behalf of uh Yre, the youth against racism in Europe. If we could show UCPI 503783.
00:33:15 So that is the tab A1 in the sales bundle.
00:33:20 Uh this is the statement that you've given on your own behalf dated the 2nd of April 2025 and consists of 52 pages. Uh the final page that is signed that that's correct. Yes.
00:33:39 that's correct. Yes. If we can now bring up UCPI 507814 that's the statement. [clears throat]
00:33:46 This statement is dated the 17th of April. It's provided on behalf of Youth Against Racism in Europe. Um, and in relation to this second statement, I understand that in addition to your own recollection, the statement contains material input from members of Yre,
00:34:01 material input from members of Yre, namely Lois Austin, Ruth Woolhouse, and Hugo Pierre. That's correct. Yes. Have you had an opportunity to read both of these statements recently? I have. Yes. And can you confirm that both statements are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes.
00:34:16 and belief? Yes. So, may I ask that those statements uh be admitted into evidence? Of course.
00:34:19 course. So, you're aware the topics I shall be covering in my questions with you will include your background and involvement with Y and militant labor. Yes.
00:34:29 Yes. The history or background of those organizations um stewarding and reporting on Wire's involvements in violence and disorder. Um particular events involving public
00:34:47 Um particular events involving public disorder. uh Brick Lane, Welling and Els Court, the Wiry Summer Camp in Bavaria, and then we'll look at some of the accuracy of the reporting by the undercover officers uh before seeking your personal views on the report. [clears throat]
00:35:00 [clears throat] Uh many of my questions today will refer to or be connected to the deployment of HN43 Peter Francis, whom you may have
00:35:11 HN43 Peter Francis, whom you may have known by his cover name, Peter Johnson, or as Peter David Johnson, Pete Black, or Pete Daly. Can I confirm by which name did you know him? I think I knew him as Pete Dailyaly.
00:35:22 I will also refer to um officers HN 104, Carlos Sarrai, whose cover name was Carlo Ner and HN78 Trevor Morris whose cover names when deployed were Anthony Bobby Lewis or Bobby McGee.
00:35:38 Bobby Lewis or Bobby McGee. First, I'd like to explore your background in activism. Um,
00:35:39 Um, you became a supporter of Militant in 1985 when you were a young teenager. Is that right? Yes, that's correct. Yes. And that was when you were around 14 years old. Yes.
00:35:50 Yes. You later became a member of the Labour Party Young Socialists which you've explained in your witness statement was the then youth section of the Labour Party.
00:35:56 Party. Correct.
00:36:01 Correct. What was it that prompted your interest in becoming involved with political activism at that early age? I grew up under the Thatcher government. uh there was mass youth unemployment at that time and a lot of anger about that and I think particularly for me the
00:36:16 and I think particularly for me the minor strike had a very big politicizing effect. I lived in Wolverampton uh and there was a pit nearby in a neighboring village and everyone in the town was on one side or the other. You were for against the miners and the Labour Party
00:36:28 against the miners and the Labour Party young socialists were for them and were out campaigning and that mattered to me. but also um the council in Liverpool which was led by militant supporters, a labor council that was had widespread
00:36:44 labor council that was had widespread news coverage at that time and my whole family were politicized by it because they were demanding from the Thatcher government the 60 million pounds that had been taken in cuts to central
00:36:56 had been taken in cuts to central government funding to be restored to the council and they mobilized a huge movement big demonstration strikes in support of their council, a thing hard to imagine today, I know. Um, and uh,
00:37:08 to imagine today, I know. Um, and uh, they won and they built council houses, leisure centers, and for a poor working-class family, seeing a council do that, it was very inspiring. So, it had a big effect on me. So, at the same time that you joined um, Labour Party Young Socialist, you were
00:37:23 Labour Party Young Socialist, you were also a supporter of militant. And just for clarity, those were separate movements, weren't they? Uh, Labour Party Young Socialist and Militant.
00:37:27 Militant. Yes. Separate movements. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. In 1987, you were elected the West Midlands representative on the LPYS National Committee. And then in 1988, you say that when you were 17,
00:37:42 in 1988, you say that when you were 17, you moved from Wolverampton to London to take up a role on Labour's National Executive Committee after being elected to represent LPs on that committee. Uh so was that a formal role within the Labor Party?
00:37:55 Labor Party? It was. Yes. The L the LPs, the Labour Party Young Socialist, was the youth section of the Labor Party. uh militant supporters had most of the leading positions because we won the elections in that youth section and it was a very big vibrant youth section 2,000 de
00:38:09 big vibrant youth section 2,000 de delegates to its conferences and so on and I was elected. Yes. And was that a full-time role uh in London?
00:38:16 London? No, I mean it took up a lot of my time but it wasn't a full-time role.
00:38:26 And what did the involvement what did that appointment involve for you? For me, it involves going to regular meetings of the executive committee of the Labor Party and also the various subcommittees that you uh go to uh but
00:38:37 subcommittees that you uh go to uh but also the national youth committee of the Labour Party. But it also involved rep I was representing the Labour Party Young Social. I wasn't just there on my own
00:38:49 Social. I wasn't just there on my own account. So I would then be speaking at meetings around the country reporting back um and you know talking to the young members of the Labour Party. And at the end of the 90s 19 I think 1989 or 1990 the Labour Party closed Labour
00:39:01 1990 the Labour Party closed Labour Party Young Socialists. What did you do after that? I after that stayed in London and I was unemployed at that time looking for work and I spent a lot of time campaigning on
00:39:12 and I spent a lot of time campaigning on different issues. The reality was in our view um the right-wing of the Labour
00:39:20 view um the right-wing of the Labour Party, the people who later got complete control under Tony Blair, they did not like the Labour Party Young Socialist because it was leftwing and led by militant supporters, but they couldn't defeat us in argument. So they shut the Labour Party Young Socialist down. Um but all the young people who had been part of it were still there. We were
00:39:33 part of it were still there. We were still campaigning on all the same issues and we continue to do so. So is that in effect uh a full-time move to purely militant activities? I worked
00:39:44 to purely militant activities? I worked full-time for the militant as a job from the mid 1990s. Prior to that, like many activists, I spent a lot of time on it, but it wasn't my job. Yeah.
00:39:58 Um, you were directly involved in the founding of Yari in the United Kingdom. Uh, when was that founded? Initially it began in 1992 and that was militant
00:40:10 began in 1992 and that was militant supporters and our co-thinkers across Europe. Uh we were part of something still are part of something called the committee for workers international and young members of other groups in the
00:40:25 young members of other groups in the committee for workers international and ourselves felt like given the level of racist violence at that point in time particularly in East Germany but not only there was a need for a Europeanwide movement and we initiated a big demonstration in Brussels where the far right the Vlams block at that time were
00:40:40 right the Vlams block at that time were growing of about 40,000 young people and Yre in Britain really came out of that. Uh in your statement um at paragraph 3.11, we don't need to go there. Uh you
00:40:53 3.11, we don't need to go there. Uh you described the founding of militant labor as an or independent organization in 1993.
00:40:56 1993. Uh what was your involvement with that? I was heavily involved in that as an activist and a youth organizer for militant labor. Um fundamentally uh many militant supporters had been expelled
00:41:09 militant supporters had been expelled from the Labor Party. I was expelled for not paying my pole tax for example. Um and Labour had moved to the right and we felt we had to openly organize as a separate party to put our socialist
00:41:22 separate party to put our socialist ideas. So we launched militant labor at that point in time. And you you say in your statement that you served on uh the executive committee of militant labor uh for around 30 years.
00:41:31 years. Yes.
00:41:34 Yes. Um do you recall the date of the appointment to the executive committee? um offhand, not exactly, but around that time um around 93, 94 perhaps. And we
00:41:50 time um around 93, 94 perhaps. And we understand that in 2020, in 2020, you became the general secretary of the Socialist Party. Um as as militant labor had then become. Yes, we became the Socialist Party in 1997. And it was a name change because
00:42:03 1997. And it was a name change because we thought uh saying we are a socialist party at a time when the Labour Party had completely abandoned socialism was a much clearer description of what we stood for. So we changed our name
00:42:16 stood for. So we changed our name and the inquiry understands that you still hold that position today. I do. Yes.
00:42:25 I do. Yes. I'd like to uh explore [clears throat] the history of wiry and militant labor a little and understand the relationship between those two organizations.
00:42:39 between those two organizations. Looking first at Yre, you were involved in with the founding of Y in 1992 and you set out in Y's witness statement that WY was part of a panuropean anti-racist movement. In brief, c can you describe that wider movement's aims and how it was
00:42:54 movement's aims and how it was organized? So our aims were to build a a youth movement in opposition to racism in general and specifically to the growth of the far right and the violence of the far right at that point in time. And the wire was initiated by supporters
00:43:08 And the wire was initiated by supporters of the militant and our co-thinkers. But it rapidly became a much broader organization in Britain. We had about 50 branches. Those branches would elect delegates to national conferences and we were involved in all kinds of campaigning as
00:43:23 involved in all kinds of campaigning as I said against the far right and the BMP but also campaigning against racism in schools justice campaigns uh show racism the red card that is still a big campaign in the football terraces today don't think they're terraces anymore but you know what I mean um that uh came out of originally
00:43:39 mean um that uh came out of originally and um I understand that your role within um you describe in the witness statement as national organizer. Uh did that role change over time?
00:43:51 that role change over time? I was the national secretary of the Y uh which was one of the national organizers job for a period of time. Uh but I didn't continued long after I stopped being the national secretary. Uh
00:44:06 being the national secretary. Uh why did so why did you and your co-founders feel that the UK branch for wiry was absolutely necessary at that time? because there was a serious growth in racist violence at that point in time. The BNP, the British National
00:44:17 time. The BNP, the British National Party were a small organization, but they'd gained confidence. There were big increases in racist attacks. And we felt
00:44:30 increases in racist attacks. And we felt the way to defeat that was to organize a mass movement of young people, but also involving the trade unions to show you're in a minority. The big majority of society do not agree with that. and
00:44:42 of society do not agree with that. and to demonst to to show in on the streets in [clears throat] campaigning that we were the majority. If we could bring up the wiry witness statement um pages 6 and 7 and show them side by side please.
00:44:53 That's UCPI 5037814.
00:45:16 Thank you very much. Now we we can see here the um I suppose the the main areas of your work which I think you've just um out outlined
00:45:31 think you've just um out outlined um but in relation to mass mobilization against the BNP um as a brief overview what what did that involve? I mean the biggest things that we did
00:45:44 I mean the biggest things that we did were the campaign in Welling where the BMP was allegedly a bookshop but in reality it was a fortified bunker. Their national headquarters was and that had actually started long before the establishment of W. Local militant
00:45:55 establishment of W. Local militant supporters you heard from Lois Austin who was one of them were campaigning on that issue. Another focus was the campaign in Tower Hamlets in northeast
00:46:06 campaign in Tower Hamlets in northeast London where the BMP had had their first counselor elected, the first Nazi counselor since the Second World War in Britain. So they were the kind of two national focuses, but there were all kinds of other protests, demonstrations campaigning around the country as well
00:46:20 campaigning around the country as well and that was the election of Derek Beacon.
00:46:24 Beacon. Um, so just looking at back at the document, we've got the mass mobilization against the BNP, international mobilizations and panuropean work, education and work within the labor movement and
00:46:36 within the labor movement and communities. Were there any other areas of work not covered in this list? I think you've touched upon the show risk. I can't see on these two pages, but I think we do also refer [clears throat]
00:46:48 think we do also refer [clears throat] to the question of justice campaigns as well and that was another part of our campaigning. We'll come to that. Okay. Um now again briefly in relation to militant labor how did militant labor come to be founded?
00:47:04 come to be founded? Uh well militant labor uh previously the militant tendency was founded in 1964. Um we had a newspaper the militant. I think it's I wasn't around in 1964, but I think it strapline from the beginning uh was the Marxist paper for labor and
00:47:16 uh was the Marxist paper for labor and youth and we organized inside the Labor Party uh campaigning for Marxist ideas and then became the Socialist Party with the rise of new labor effectively. Yes. Yes.
00:47:31 effectively. Yes. Yes. Um what was the relationship between the new militant labor and the militant that had existed since the 1960s? The militant for since the 1960s were organized inside the Labour Party. We were sometimes attacked for that. But in fact, every political trend was
00:47:43 fact, every political trend was organized inside the Labor Party. I'm sure people who followed Labour politics in recent years with the way the right organized against Jeremy Corbyn are fully aware different political
00:47:54 fully aware different political groupings organized inside the Labor Party. And we were organized as Marxists. But we then launched ourselves as an independent party standing independently in elections rather than working to back Labor candidates and so on as we had done previously.
00:48:09 on as we had done previously. How did militant Labor intend to achieve its aims?
00:48:12 its aims? How do we intend to how do we still as the Socialist Party our political aims? We would like to see a socialist government, a government that would make fundamental change, bring into public ownership the major
00:48:26 bring into public ownership the major corporations and banks that dominate the economy and begin to build a new socialist society. And we argue for those ideas in the workers movement generally, in the trade unions, but also in all of our campaigning activity.
00:48:44 in all of our campaigning activity. Where do the police fit into militant labor's view of society? We think in this society unfortunately the police and all aspects of the state are ultimately not neutral in the way that they pose as being but act in
00:48:57 that they pose as being but act in defense of if you like the existing order and we would say that was the capitalist class and a small minority who dominate in this society and I have to say everything that you're discovering in this inquiry tends to
00:49:11 discovering in this inquiry tends to back up uh our view on that. How do we think that should change? We want the police to be under democratic control of local communities. So, you know, we see that uh you need a police force in society. Yes. But it should be a police
00:49:30 society. Yes. But it should be a police force that is actually under the control of local communities. And I am sure if local communities have been deciding what the police were doing in this period, they would not have decided to spend money and resources infiltrating the left in the way that was done.
00:49:41 the left in the way that was done. what what do you understand militant or militancy to mean in this context? I think that to be a militant um is people used to say if you're a militant you're a moderate who's got off your
00:49:58 you're a moderate who's got off your knees. I think that militancy means that you are a determined campaigner for the interests of workingclass people and that you support trade union campaigning in defense of workingclass people. you're prepared to fight for a different, more just society. We live in
00:50:13 different, more just society. We live in a society where the richest 50 people in Britain own as much as 70% of the rest of the population while 7 million people or seven million households go hungry. I think a militant should be someone who campaigns against those things. That's what it means.
00:50:30 what it means. And you you've mentioned um in that answer fighting um does militancy mean confrontation or violence? It does not mean violence. Does it mean confrontation? We are very clear that the only way you can
00:50:41 clear that the only way you can implement socialist change in society is if you can convince the big majority of people that that is what is needed. And therefore our campaigning for socialist ideas is absolutely done through
00:50:52 ideas is absolutely done through democratic means standing in elections, leafleting, holding public meetings. If you mean by confrontation that I would be prepared to go on question time and point out the need for socialism,
00:51:04 point out the need for socialism, absolutely. If you mean violence, no.
00:51:14 absolutely. If you mean violence, no. We've looked at these two groups, wiry and militant as sort of distinct uh up [clears throat] until up until now in these questions. Was there a formal relationship between wire and militant labor?
00:51:24 labor? Not a formal relationship. No. Um and wiry was not a front. I've seen that used in the documents for militant labor. Militant labor initiated wire
00:51:36 labor. Militant labor initiated wire because we could see the need for a mass anti-racist organization of young people, but it was a democratic organization in its own right. It wasn't run by militant labor. So, were participants in one required or expected to be members or involved with the other?
00:51:52 the other? No. I mean look I think a young member of militants who said I do not want to help build youth against racism in Europe we'd have said to them why I really think you should but the other side doesn't follow at all there were young people of no not involved in any
00:52:05 young people of no not involved in any political grouping or involved in lots of different political groupings that were part of y if we could bring up Peter Francis's witness statement uh that's UCPI 5036012
00:52:17 at page 58 I'd like to look at paragraph 3 42 please.
00:52:33 [cough and clears throat]
00:52:41 So Mr. Francis says this. I was a fully paid up member of Militant. My membership which mil with militant began in the summer of 1995 and
00:52:57 militant began in the summer of 1995 and ran through to the end of my field tour. While in the y I was highly encouraged by other members to join militant. Obtaining higher positions with y required a person to be a member of militant as essentially the y was a
00:53:10 militant as essentially the y was a militant front group. It was again part of my targeting strategy to make that move to militant membership. Was it a requirement to be a member of militant to progress within Y? Absolutely not. I'm I'm sorry that's just not true. And I think you've heard
00:53:26 just not true. And I think you've heard from witnesses who were never supporters of the militant who played had roles in Wre and I have to say if you read the statements from Peter Francis then it's clear a lot of his attention was on the leadership of militant trade union
00:53:38 leadership of militant trade union activists in militant and I think they wanted to spy on the militant and this is an excuse. Um so in practice
00:53:54 Um so in practice were most senior or leading members of why are we also members of militant? Many were but not all. Could you give a proportion a percentage perhaps?
00:54:02 perhaps? At this distance not I can guess for you but it would be a guess. I I would say probably more than half of the national officers of wiry were supporters of militant but that still leaves a big chunk that weren't. There was no need for Peter Francis to join.
00:54:14 for Peter Francis to join. So 50% is the highest you'd comfortably put it.
00:54:17 put it. That is a guess. I'd have to go back and look. Yeah.
00:54:25 Um, I'd like to move on to consideration of subversion very briefly and disorder.
00:54:38 of subversion very briefly and disorder. Um, in his witness statement, and we we don't need to go to it. At paragraph 52, uh, two, sorry, paragraph 252, Peter Francis divides his intelligence reporting into two categories, public order information and information on
00:54:50 order information and information on subversives. Now you've referred in your statement to the Harris definition of subvers subversion in your personal statement at paragraph 13.9. So namely subversive activities are those which threaten the safety and well-being of the state and are intended to undermine
00:55:03 the state and are intended to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy by political and industrial or violent means. Just by way of a refresher of that definition in your witness
00:55:17 that definition in your witness statement at paragraph 4.6 if we could bring that up. That's page 16. UCPI 503783.
00:55:35 You say, and it's about half, it's about halfway down that paragraph 4.6 on page 16. You say um given the ordinary dictionary definition of subversion which you say
00:55:49 definition of subversion which you say is um the undermining of the power and authority of an established system or institution. Our campaigns and our program to replace capitalism and its institutions within dem democratic socialism could in the broadest sense of
00:56:02 socialism could in the broadest sense of the word be described as subversive. But we pursue our attempts to transform society via democratic means. Um, is that what you may is is that what
00:56:13 Um, is that what you may is is that what you referred to earlier in your evidence about pursuing that democratic route? Absolutely. Should I talk more or do you want to [laughter] um Yes, absolutely. And I would say that uh the workers movement generally including ourselves have
00:56:24 generally including ourselves have fought for every democratic gain we've got in society. The right to vote, the right to join a trade union and we
00:56:36 right to join a trade union and we defend them all. And actually we want a big expansion of democracy. We would like to see annual election of parliaments MPs subject to recall only taking a workers's wage. We'd like the election of judges. Um so you know we want to see democracy expanded and
00:56:49 want to see democracy expanded and absolutely we pursue uh our our views by democratic means and um were meetings of the re held in public or private? Public.
00:56:58 Public. And is that the same for militant labor? Yes.
00:57:10 Looking f looking now to militant labor. Uh can we please bring up MPS uh 0745874?
00:57:13 So that's in the wire bundle at tab B98.
00:57:25 This is uh an intelligence report by Peter Francis reporting on the London militant conference in October 1994. Or if we go over to page two, we can see a description of that.
00:57:36 And then turning on to page six,
00:57:49 it says this in the second paragraph. In conclusion, a debate of some interest took place on the Sunday afternoon when the question was raised as to whether ML should conceal the act that it is really a revolutionary group bent on the overthrow of the capitalist state.
00:58:07 overthrow of the capitalist state. Now, in the list of attendees, you are you are named. Do do you recall that debate?
00:58:11 debate? I have no recall of that debate at all. And frankly, I think the person reporting, I presume it's Peter Francis, cannot have understood the discussion remotely. Um, what we were discussing at that point in time was the need to work
00:58:25 that point in time was the need to work as an independent organization and to go out and convince people of socialism under our own name. It doesn't bear any resemblance to what he's talking about there.
00:58:36 there. So, do do you agree that the aims of militant labor were publicly stated? Absolutely. Yes. We'll look at the issue of specific
00:58:50 We'll look at the issue of specific issue surrounding violence shortly. But was either group Yre or militant labor involved in creating public disorder? Never. No.
00:59:01 Never. No. Uh you've explained in the Yre's witness statement uh at paragraph 5.3 uh which is UCPI 5037814.
00:59:08 Perhaps [clears throat] you could bring that up, please.
00:59:37 So that's between pages nine and 10. Uh and you you explained there that the group relied on amongst other methods civil disobedience and mass political action to further its aims. Are civil disobedience and public
00:59:51 Are civil disobedience and public disorder distinct concepts or are they one and the same? I think they're distinct concepts surely.
00:59:57 surely. In what way? Well, for example, uh we were in the leadership of the mass campaign of non-payment of the pole tax, which was when 18 million people at its
01:00:09 which was when 18 million people at its peak were unable or refused to pay what was called the community charge, officially the pole tax. And that led to the repeal of that tax and was a big factor in the resignation of Margaret Thatcher. That was not public disorder. It was civil disobedience.
01:00:22 It was civil disobedience. I'd like to look now at Yre's involvement with um justice campaigns. If we could show please MPS 0246
01:00:35 If we could show please MPS 0246 Treble 2 sir in the Yre bundle that is tab B179.
01:00:50 So this is a report dated 1st of May 1996. And if we look at numbered paragraph three halfway down the page, the report refers to five campaign
01:01:03 the report refers to five campaign groups which it describes under the wiry umbrella. One of those groups about halfway through the paragraph is justice campaigns. Justice being given in a single inverted commas.
01:01:16 The section reads, "The third area of wiry intervention is in the numerous justice campaigns in support of those who have suffered at the hands of the police and or the judiciary. Although regarded by ML
01:01:30 judiciary. Although regarded by ML leaders as largely pointless, Yre cannot be seen to ignore these matters." What do you say to the report suggestion that ML leaders regarded Yre's involvement with justice campaigns as largely pointless?
01:01:45 largely pointless? I think it's outrageous. It's I mean it really isn't true. I was so shocked by it when I read it going through the original bundle. I did actually go back and look at the old copies of the militant newspaper and it they're jam-packed with reports of justice campaigns because we thought they were really important.
01:02:03 really important. So notwithstanding that comment, the wiry was, as you say, jam involved with um a number of police accountability. Yes. The the literature was jam-packed. Do you recall which campaigns the YU supported in particular?
01:02:16 supported in particular? I mean, there were lots of different ones. We were only ever as involved as families wanted us to be. Um, but we were from memory particularly involved in the Oliver Campbell campaign. It was
01:02:31 in the Oliver Campbell campaign. It was only recently been uh found innocent and allowed out of prison after all these years. Uh Winston Silcot, um the M253. Uh there were others as well but and they're listed in the statement but there are some Brian Douglas the Brian Douglas campaign being one of those we'll come to that in a second.
01:02:45 those we'll come to that in a second. In what ways would wiry support these those and similar campaigns? We would campaign in the trade union movement to get support for them. So try and broaden the support for the campaigns
01:02:54 campaigns organize
01:02:55 organize vigils and protest as far as the families wanted them or support the families in what they were doing. um publicity, trying to get press coverage for the issues, that kind of thing.
01:03:09 for the issues, that kind of thing. The um the Justice for Brian Douglas campaign was, as I understand it, the a police accountability campaign concerned with the death of Mr. Douglas from injuries he sustained while in police
01:03:21 injuries he sustained while in police custody. Is that a fair summary of the campaign?
01:03:21 campaign? Yes.
01:03:28 Yes. You said in the statement that Peter Francis was involved with this campaign and was involved in some of the studenting meetings. Are you able to say whether uh he was involved as a steward only or in the wider campaign?
01:03:40 only or in the wider campaign? I mean from memory our statement says we thought he was involved to quite a limited extent but in the wiry statement that section is mainly written by Ruth Woolhouse. So there is a limit. I can't really comment. I was not directly involved in that campaign.
01:03:51 involved in that campaign. I'll I'll move on. Um, at paragraph 25.1 of the wire statement, you refer to the Steven
01:04:09 statement, you refer to the Steven Lawrence campaign and explain uh that the family campaign asked WY not to become involved and that the group respected those wishes. Can you set out any recollection you may have of that interaction with the Lawrence family campaign?
01:04:20 Lawrence family campaign? I didn't have direct interaction with the Lawrence family campaign. Um but we understood that they did not want to be uh directly campaigning with us. They
01:04:31 uh directly campaigning with us. They did not want us involved in the campaign and so we we weren't we didn't um would you be able to write down if you are able to uh who within the organization was involved?
01:04:44 was involved? Well, no one was directly involved in the campaign but I can write down with it with the liazison with I can write that down. Yes. If you could do that now please.
01:05:02 But the if I if I just say this, there may be others that I don't remember. I can only write down what I remember. Yeah,
01:05:18 thank you. We have [clears throat] to be careful about names for privacy reasons sometimes. Thank you. [clears throat]
01:05:22 Thank you.
01:05:30 So that that is one of your co-op opponents of this statement, isn't it? Yeah.
01:05:44 Given the limited involvement that well limited or no involvement as you say that wiry had with the Steven Lawrence family campaign
01:05:57 family campaign does it follow that in your view Peter Francis would not have had contact with the Steven Lawrence family campaign through
01:06:05 through he couldn't have done the only time I think Neville Lawrence spoke at a press conference in the run-up to the 8th of May demonstration but that's the only involvement I can remember they were not involved after that um and of Of course, Peter Francis was not involved in wire or militant at that point in time. So, he can't have done. No.
01:06:20 he can't have done. No. And you I presume the answer would be the same in relation to militant. Is that
01:06:20 that Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:32 I'd like to move on to the issue of violence and start uh by looking at the topic of stewarding. First of all, in general terms, what do you understand the term stewarding to mean
01:06:46 mean in the sense of we're talking about? Obviously, you could be a shop steward in a workplace. That's a different in the context. But in the sense of what we're talking about, we considered stewarding to be individuals who took responsibility for trying to keep
01:06:57 responsibility for trying to keep protests or canvasing or meetings or other activity that we were organizing safe from outside attack and that was the role of stewards.
01:07:08 the role of stewards. So the aim effectively was overall safety.
01:07:09 safety. Absolutely. Yes. May I take you to UCPI 5034525?
01:07:18 So this is in Y bundle at B103.
01:07:28 And I'd like to look at uh stewarding in practice.
01:07:50 Thank you very much. Uh this is a report relating to a bi-election in popular in December 1994. Mhm.
01:07:58 Mhm. On the second page in the final paragraph, the report states, "As a departure from previous practice, the Y stewards group, a relatively new
01:08:10 the Y stewards group, a relatively new entity, will be present at in popular as a visible force. This stewards group is comprised of experienced and courageous street activists who are charged with protecting their demonstrators,
01:08:22 protecting their demonstrators, instilling discipline, and the tactical direction of their charges to avoid confinement in ineffective positions.
01:08:35 confinement in ineffective positions. It is anticipated that the wiry turnout on each occasion will be in the region of 100 activists. Confrontation is almost inevitable if groups of right-wing nationalist supporters, not necessarily members of the BNP, come up against the Y contingent.
01:08:48 against the Y contingent. Do you agree with the description of the stewarding group and its aims that that that paragraph sets out? Not completely. No. Um I mean the first thing I'd say in this period of time and we'll I'm sure we'll come to this later
01:09:02 we'll I'm sure we'll come to this later on the campaigning in Tower Hamlets, but we were involved in big community campaigns
01:09:03 campaigns uh because of the the level of racist violence that local people were facing from the British National Party who were standing in elections in predominantly Asian areas and were intimidating
01:09:16 Asian areas and were intimidating people, brutally beating them up. I mean, Curtis Ali, who ended up in a coma in hospital, was beaten up by BMP canvases, and our campaigning was for
01:09:29 canvases, and our campaigning was for the idea of community self-defense. And it's very interesting. Uh, the police
01:09:37 it's very interesting. Uh, the police infiltrators never talk about this. They talk about our stewarding organization, but they don't talk about the fact we approach the council to say, "Look, people are in danger. You should help organize community self-defense. have a conference of the trade unions, the different community and youth
01:09:50 different community and youth organizations and help people to protect their local communities. When that wasn't done, Yre with youth connection which was a Bangladeshi youth
01:10:02 which was a Bangladeshi youth organization, we organized a community self-defense. So in this period for example we had something like the whistle alarm system which was when BMP canvases if BM if groups of BMP go on to predominantly Asian estates they're not there to canvas they're there to
01:10:17 there to canvas they're there to frighten when they turned up anyone who saw them blew a whistle and the whole community came out onto the street not to attack the BMP but to say we're here in numbers we can see you and we're not going to be intimidated by you. So
01:10:29 going to be intimidated by you. So absolutely we were mobilizing in the community. Now as part of our work which also in involved canvasing in bi-elections against the BMP we did organized stewarding to make sure that
01:10:44 organized stewarding to make sure that our canvases were protected but that's what they were there to do. They were not there to confront the BMP. They did not want to have trouble. They wanted to prevent trouble. Final point, as part of our community campaigning, for example,
01:10:58 our community campaigning, for example, on the aisle of dogs where the BMP had a counselor, our members were involved in a campaign uh to stop the closure of a local community center, which actually played a part in the later defeat of Derek Beacon because it was a local campaign
01:11:10 Beacon because it was a local campaign in the interest of the whole community to keep this community center. But as a result of it, one of our members on that estate was number two on the BMP's hit list, the C18 hit list, which was entitled, "Kill them all." We really
01:11:26 entitled, "Kill them all." We really were in danger, and that's why we had to have stewarding, but it was for protection. Now, I'm going to preemptively just ask you to slow down. If [laughter] I don't, I'm going to be sent hand a post-it note.
01:11:41 sent hand a post-it note. Um, that's a very helpful point. Um, and from that, I think we can take it. The Y did have stewards of its own. And that was true of militant labor as well, was it? It was. Yes. And was that the group known as the away team?
01:11:52 team? The the away team was never an official title. Uh and in fact, I never even realized where the nickname came from until I heard another core participant's evidence on Thursday. Uh but it was a
01:12:03 evidence on Thursday. Uh but it was a loose group of people who did stewarding for us. So yes. And had WY always had stewards through its entire existence? Certainly in our anti-racist campaigning, we did not always have stewards. We were quite
01:12:15 always have stewards. We were quite naive at the beginning. Um, I would just like to give a little example which Lois Austin referred to because the
01:12:28 Austin referred to because the campaigning against the BMP in Southeast London had gone on for a long period of time and I was involved probably the year before the launch of WR in a demonstration in Elton that she talked about where we were badly outnumbered by the BMP and actually if it hadn't been for the police we would have faced
01:12:39 for the police we would have faced violence but I want to give you an example of how we didn't steward. I was asked, "Could you bring down some anti-racist posters, signs on sticks for the demonstration?" We were so naive
01:12:50 the demonstration?" We were so naive that I took them on the tube and the train over my shoulder without even a bag covering them up. I got to London Bridge station. It was full of BMP swearing at me, shouting at me. I
01:13:01 swearing at me, shouting at me. I vividly remember going up to some poor black member of staff and saying, "What am I meant to do?" And him understandably saying, "I don't know." Um, I had to go and hide in the women's
01:13:13 Um, I had to go and hide in the women's toilets, drop the signs, and then get on the next train to avoid the BMP. So, at the beginning, we didn't steward, but we realized we needed to.
01:13:24 realized we needed to. How would the stewards be organized? In what sense do you mean? Uh, were would there be briefings? Was it a loose collective? Did you know how many people would turn would would turn out as students?
01:13:36 out as students? Yes, it was loosely organized. Um so uh you know if you're organizing a demonstration you would phone around the wiry branches. You were asked to come to the demonstration say could you all provide a couple of people to steward. It was it wasn't done in a kind of very
01:13:53 It was it wasn't done in a kind of very professional way but you would then have a briefing beforehand to go through the importance of protecting the demonstration who the chief steward was on the day and so on. So there was a level of organization. So chief steward. So there is there is a a leadership model within the stewarding
01:14:04 model within the stewarding in the sense that you would tend to have somebody in charge on the day. Yes. And how were the stewards chosen? Were they simply volunteers or were people approached? Overwhelmingly they were volunteers. It was who wanted to do it.
01:14:23 was who wanted to do it. And and anyone could do that could they? Uh yes. I mean I can't think of who we might have stopped. I think generally any if somebody wanted to be a steward they could be a steward. Yes. So I think it presumably follows that it was open to men and women. Yes.
01:14:36 Yes. Uh did you act as a steward for ML or Y? I did act as a steward. Yes. How often? Um
01:14:40 Um on a lot of the bigger demonstrations. Uh but not always. You know, sometimes I wouldn't be a steward.
01:14:57 And when we when we've heard talk about the away team,
01:15:03 do I understand your evidence that that there wasn't a team? There wasn't a group called the away team or that you weren't aware of the term?
01:15:14 weren't aware of the term? No, I was aware of the term, but it wasn't a formal term. It was just a phrase that got used and it meant the stewards who were prepared to defend us if necessary from attack. because you have stewards for different things. Um, you have stewards
01:15:26 different things. Um, you have stewards to point out where the toilets are, how to get to the tube, but you also have stewards who who say if we're attacked, we're prepared to defend you. And that's what the Away team meant. And uh, were there any non-male members of the Away team?
01:15:38 of the Away team? On occasion, there would have been because it didn't have a fixed membership. It wasn't that's an exaggeration. There is a certain mythology around this that has developed.
01:15:51 developed. If we could uh look at Peter Francis's witness statement, UCPI5036012
01:15:56 at page 66,
01:15:59 paragraph 392, please
01:16:22 Uh he says that people were recruited to the away team were known and well trusted within the yre and militant. You had to be a member of both groups and able to look after yourself and others physically.
01:16:34 physically. So did members of the away team need to be a trusted member of both militant and wiry?
01:16:39 wiry? None.
01:16:45 None. Uh, were recruits required to be able to look after themselves and others physically? Well, if you've got the people who are going to steward a demonstration and face police attack or attack from the far right, then they have to be people
01:16:57 far right, then they have to be people who want who are prepared to say, "Yeah, we're going to withstand that. We're going to stand our ground." So, in that sense, yes. You've already mentioned that the stewards would have a chief steward.
01:17:11 stewards would have a chief steward. Um, to whom did the stewards report? So who to whom did the perhaps the chief steward report? Well, on any demonstration, you've got the organizers of the demonstration and in broad terms, you would be discussing beforehand what the route of the
01:17:23 beforehand what the route of the demonstration was, the negotiations we'd had with the police because we always attempted to get police permission for demonstrations and so on. And so the chief steward would coordinate uh with uh the uh leaders of W on a Y
01:17:37 uh the uh leaders of W on a Y demonstration as far as as possible in the day on the day. I mean this is in the era before mobile phones. we couldn't always talk to each other. [laughter] So, as as I think you've explained, the necessity for stewards was to ensure safety.
01:17:52 safety. Um, were there any particular groups that you felt needed particular protection? Well, look, Wy was a youth organization. Most of the people we came to demonstrations were young people, college students. We wanted to protect
01:18:04 college students. We wanted to protect everybody on a demonstration. But it did matter to us. Our strategy was the way to defeat the far right was to a weight of numbers to show that the majority of
01:18:15 of numbers to show that the majority of society were against them and that meant we wanted people to feel safe coming on the demonstrations. So yes, everybody, but especially the young people we were mobilizing, it mattered to us that they were safe.
01:18:29 were safe. And were the stewards [snorts] um deployed or mobilized um at every public event you you you had? It wouldn't have been the case at every single public meeting or conference, but certainly um if you were having a public meeting in Welling or in Tower Hamlets where the BMP were on the offensive and carrying
01:18:42 BMP were on the offensive and carrying out violence, you would have had to have stewarding. So events that would have stewards would potentially consideration of geography. Um what we thought well basically what we thought the threat of getting
01:18:54 we thought the threat of getting attacked by the PMP was that was the consideration. And what preparation would be done by the stewards ahead of events?
01:19:06 events? That would vary. Um they might for example uh look around the area to check places where they thought the BMP might appear from. So have a look around. Um but basically you would turn they come to the demonstration and do the job. It wasn't a huge amount of preparation beforehand.
01:19:22 beforehand. So when you say do the job, what would their practical role be? Again, it would depend on the event, but if you were having a public meeting that you were worried that the BMP might come and attack, you would just make sure that you had some stewards on the door in
01:19:35 you had some stewards on the door in order to stop far-right thugs getting in and attacking the meeting because that did happen. We had meetings broken up uh by the BMP, people hospitalized and so on on a demonstration.
01:19:46 on on a demonstration. stewards were mainly on the perimeter of the demonstration where necessary linking arms in order to protect the demonstration from attack. And unfortunately on occasion that was attack from the police. It wasn't only the far right.
01:20:00 the far right. I'd like to show uh a clip from World in actions violence against violence program broadcast in November 1993. If we could um get that ready please. Uh, that's UCPI5039413
01:20:13 and the clip starting at 14 minutes 36.
01:20:29 Leadership don't officially advocate violence. Weld in action has discovered a hidden group of 25 within the organization called the away team used for defense and direct confrontation. If we stop there, uh I I think we cut off the the first few words which I
01:20:44 off the the first few words which I think was though the YRE leadership don't officially advocate. Um do you agree with the program's characterization of the Y's away team specifically that it was a hidden group
01:20:59 specifically that it was a hidden group of 25 within the organization called the away team used for defense and direct confrontation. So first of all it wasn't a hidden group. There weren't 25. believe there was no formal membership at all and they were there for defensive reasons for self-defense. So are you saying was
01:21:12 self-defense. So are you saying was anyone in the away team ever violent in the sense of legal violence of defending yourself when you're attacked? Very occasionally they had to be, but actually I think if you read Peter
01:21:27 actually I think if you read Peter Francis's statements that that was very rare and it was always legal self-defense. They were not interested in going onto the offensive. That was not their role.
01:21:39 not their role. So So you you don't accept the more combative um description that we've just had in the clip? I don't. No. If we could show please MPS0745874
01:21:51 starting at page two please. Uh sir that is in the Yre bundle tab B98.
01:22:04 This is a document that uh we we've looked at briefly earlier. So we'll return to this please um at page two. So you can see it's the intelligence report relate report reporting on the London militant conference from October 94. And if we go over leaf to page four please in the
01:22:19 over leaf to page four please in the second paragraph from the foot of the page.
01:22:30 It says here, "Resolution five from East London put forward by Privacy confirmed the official formation of the away team stewarding group." Privacy gave a very good speech calling on all present to
01:22:43 good speech calling on all present to vote in favor of this issue as the means of keeping this already active group within ML and thereby preventing a possible red action type breakaway scenario. Any further doubters were soon
01:22:58 scenario. Any further doubters were soon convinced by the promise of an effective stewards group to protect not only MLYR members on demonstrations, but also to protect ML headquarters by use of a phone tree in the event of a possible mass Nazi attack. This resolution was passed unanimously.
01:23:11 passed unanimously. Now, you've referred to this document in your witness statement. Do I take it that you agree with this that this resolution was brought and passed as described in the report? Well, I mean, I can't remember the resolution being passed, but in this paperwork, it actually has a copy of the resolution.
01:23:23 actually has a copy of the resolution. Yeah, we we'll come to that in a second. Uh, and it seems perfectly reasonable. I accept that resolution was passed, but not uh the commentary by the undercover officer about why we already had a
01:23:39 officer about why we already had a stewarding team. This seems to have been a resolution to formalize the need for that, and that was fine. Was there an intention for stewards to protect militant labor headquarters?
01:23:50 protect militant labor headquarters? Militant labor headquarters was already protected. We actually always had a night guard. Uh we had a rotor. It was not popular with any of us to sleep in our offices just in case of Nazi attack. So I I don't think that's
01:24:06 So I I don't think that's So do I take it that uh an attack by the extreme rightwing was considered likely at that time? It was certainly possible. Our headquarters at that time were in Hacknewick which was not far from Tower Hamlet. We did think it was possible given the violence that we were threatened with. Yes.
01:24:25 threatened with. Yes. Do you know why a resolution was needed? I mean that's what we do. Uh this was a branch resolution. It's a democratic organization. A branch of our party thinks this is a particularly important issue and wants it written down. There were other resolutions on from memory the importance of our trade union work. We were already doing trade union work.
01:24:39 were already doing trade union work. That that's how conferences work. So this this takes place at the end of 1994, but the report suggests that the stewards have been active within the YR and then militant before that date. Do you agree with that?
01:24:50 you agree with that? Yes, as I've explained. Why do you think this resolution was necessary at this point in time? I can't answer that. I was not the person who wrote it or moved it.
01:25:02 person who wrote it or moved it. So following the resolution was there any central oversight by the stewarding caucus of the stewarding caucus by senior members of militant labor? Um
01:25:12 Um senior members of milit labor would al be discussing all aspects of our work. So in that broad sense yes if we could look now please to page five of the report
01:25:27 and the first paragraph please. Thank you.
01:25:30 you. We can see there there's a reference to a requirement that the away team be augmented by at least one steward from each branch who'd become the chief steward for the for for well it says his branch. Uh um
01:25:44 branch. Uh um do you recall anything about that part of the resolution? No. And we never had branch chief stewards. Um stewarding was done on an ad hoc basis when needed. Uh so I can imagine I cannot remember but I can
01:25:56 imagine I cannot remember but I can imagine a situation where we said um if if asked for demonstration every branch needs to provide a steward but we certainly didn't have a situation where branches had permanent stewarding
01:26:12 branches had permanent stewarding organizations. So you may not be able to help me with that in this case, but the the uh chief steward from each branch
01:26:24 was that we I presume I presume that you can't assist whether that was the branch security officer. We never had branch security officers. Honestly, that's laughable. It's just not something we ever had.
01:26:35 not something we ever had. So turning to the documentation produced in in support of this. If we could turn please to page 14 of that document.
01:26:40 And
01:26:49 that looks to be the draft terms of the resolution looking at numbered paragraph one. Do you know why the resolution proposes setting up a stewarding caucus if as you say
01:27:00 if as you say the stewarding group already existed? Um,
01:27:04 Um, I I can't really answer that other than perhaps this was an attempt to make it slightly more organized because it was always quite ad hoc. Um, and it remained quite ad hoc, whatever the intentions of
01:27:15 quite ad hoc, whatever the intentions of this resolution, but perhaps that's what was behind the mover of it. So, was was it perhaps an attempt to not just make it more organized, but also more controlled?
01:27:28 more controlled? That wasn't necessary. Uh, no. If we look uh now overleaf at par at page 15, we can see some practical proposals for the stewarding system.
01:27:39 the stewarding system. And at the bottom half of the page, the second start paragraph
01:27:47 talks here about chief steward to be part of an account of and accountable to a team which covers all aspects of organizing an event both politically and organizationally working closely with the full-timer in charge of the event.
01:27:59 the full-timer in charge of the event. Look thinking about accountability. Why was that necessary? That is a statement of how we organized generally. It's not it wasn't something new.
01:28:10 new. And then if we look down at the fifth and sixth starred paragraphs, uh we can see a suggestion to that
01:28:23 uh we can see a suggestion to that there's a written analysis of the event and review meetings to be held. Did these reviews take place? No. I I must say that is an example of a lovely idea that somebody had which we never completely managed to implement or even attempted I don't think
01:28:44 so in relation to the name the away team I think and I please do correct me if I misummarize your evidence that you you were aware of the name at the time and it was only when Mr. Gilman gave his
01:28:55 it was only when Mr. Gilman gave his evidence last week that you understood it was a reference to a footballing term.
01:28:59 term. Yes, I'm not a football fan. That's probably why. [laughter] Um,
01:29:00 Um, and just so I'm clear, the away team was so called because they were prepared to effectively visit the
01:29:11 were prepared to effectively visit the home ground of those in opposition. Is that is that fair? No, that's not an accurate description. I mean, first of all, there was I know this is complicated, but I just have to
01:29:23 this is complicated, but I just have to emphasize there was not an away team. It was on every individual demonstration that you would have stewards playing different roles. And there would be a layer of stewards who would say, "Yes, we are prepared to be the stewards at the front of a demonstration, the
01:29:34 the front of a demonstration, the stewards who jump on top of Lois Austin when she's attacked by the riot police, the stewards who are prepared to put themselves in harm's way." That's what it meant.
01:29:44 it meant. Yeah. So, and and although you didn't necessarily have an appreciation of the the footballing analogy, you understood the difference at the time of the roles between the home and the away. I did stewards.
01:29:51 stewards. Yeah.
01:29:55 Yeah. I'd like to look uh at
01:30:02 uh at some reports now relating to allegations of violence and uh so we can consider some of their the accuracy. Uh before we look at them, I'd like to take you to the Yre statement which is UCPI50 37814
01:30:14 37814 page 39 please and paragraph 14.1.
01:30:28 See 14.1 of the statement you agree that the away team engaged in violence and explain starting at the third line of the paragraph their role was defensive against fascist attack and from the BNP
01:30:42 against fascist attack and from the BNP which whilst posing as a political party was essentially a racist criminal gang. So if the need arose, the away team did engage in lawful violence and the
01:30:53 engage in lawful violence and the emphasis is on lawful in your uh witness statement. Just pausing as a point of information, do do you accept that the BNP was at the time a registered political party notwithstanding your own views on it?
01:31:05 notwithstanding your own views on it? I do accept they were registered political party, but at that time they were very openly supporting Hitler had Nazi views. John Tindle, their leader, had been sent to prison for trying to organize a paramilitary organization
01:31:24 organize a paramilitary organization previously. Their leaders openly carried out racist attacks. So, you know, I can accept the legal description, but the reality was something different. And so is it a fair summary that you that y
01:31:31 that y except I I think you have covered this that the that the stewards if we don't want to pin it down to the awaiting
01:31:42 want to pin it down to the awaiting did engage in violence but that you say that violence was lawful in the sense that they were prepared to defend us and stand their ground. Yes. I'm sure we're going to go through the the example of the Brick Lane
01:31:54 the example of the Brick Lane demonstration where we occupied uh their paper selling spot which we'll come to. Yes. But for example, that way that day our stewards have been pelted with bottles by the BMP. They didn't run away. It's in that sense that I mean it.
01:32:10 away. It's in that sense that I mean it. Uh but you're not you're not suggesting to that that the steward that the awaiting were never involved in violent confrontations. Clearly, if you get attacked by the police and the BMP and you stand your ground, then you do end
01:32:21 you stand your ground, then you do end up involved in a violent confrontation. Yes. But that's legal violence. You pre you preempt my next question. No, not at all. Which is which is that it was not just a BNP but also violent confrontations with the police. Yes.
01:32:36 Yes. Uh I will now go to Brick Lane. Um if we could show please MPS0748
01:32:40 sorry 074587
01:32:50 074587 that's uh so in the wire bundle that is B75.
01:32:54 [clears throat]
01:33:02 So, first I'd like to discuss this report describing an encounter between militant labor and wiry and supporters of the British National Party on the 19th of September 1993.
01:33:13 19th of September 1993. And if we look at page one that is on there, we can see in that first block of text HN43. So that's Peter France's cipher number.
01:33:25 cipher number. And then if we move over leaf,
01:33:35 we can see that this is a report dated the 28th of June 1994. So it's produced sometime after the event. And we can see that date at the head of page two. And in number page
01:33:49 head of page two. And in number page numbered paragraph one it describes an informal and unstructured group of activists within militant labor and yre which is known as the away team. And then if we move down to paragraph two
01:34:01 two it says this away team activities consist of physical protection and stewarding of MLY events
01:34:13 protection and stewarding of MLY events and the confronting of perceived racists or fascists. Away team members are present at almost every MLY gathering, although they'll only form up as a unit if trouble occurs or is anticipated.
01:34:30 Again, as a general contention, do you think this is an accurate description of stewarding team? Um,
01:34:39 I mean, there's some exaggeration. I don't think it would be true that away team members were present at almost every MLY gathering. Um and sorry just reading through
01:34:54 it's not accurate to say are we coming are we dealing with the whole paragraph or
01:34:57 or no by all means comment on it now if it's if it assists you um so uh
01:35:01 um so uh as I think has been covered previously uh by saying by dressing and acting in a manner likely to convince the police they were BMP sympathizers it was
01:35:14 they were BMP sympathizers it was possible for them to uh uh get close to the real BMP group. That sounds like something premeditated. Uh and that was not the case. The stewards that day were dressed as they normally dressed. Uh so yeah,
01:35:28 yeah, so we'll come to that in a little bit more detail uh shortly. Now to give context,
01:35:32 context, uh this demonstration on the 19th of September 93 was to oppose the BNP selling newspapers from a stall on Brick Lane. That's right, isn't it? I I think that's not a fair description of what they did. I mean that I'm not
01:35:43 they did. I mean that I'm not disagreeing with you. What I'm saying is it was called a paper sale, but that was in an area which was overwhelmingly Bengali. Um they were not selling papers. They were there to frighten
01:35:54 papers. They were there to frighten people. And this was that when this demonstration took place, it was just after the election of Derek Beacon on the aisle of dogs. There've had been an
01:36:08 the aisle of dogs. There've had been an increase in racist attacks. There's been Curis Ali being put into a coma in hospital by BMP canvases. They celebrated the election of Derek Beacon by smashing all the shop windows on Brick Lane. They were there on that paper sale to intimidate people. Um so
01:36:23 paper sale to intimidate people. Um so yes, it was a protest against them doing that and there had been lots of discussion in the community beforehand. It wasn't just us. There was a feeling they've been they've been doing it for
01:36:34 they've been they've been doing it for decades. is the NF did it before the BMP and there was a feeling that we are not prepared to put up with this anymore. There had been meetings of big numbers of community activists and they had voted we do not want the BMP there anymore. We'd got police permission for
01:36:48 anymore. We'd got police permission for a demonstration to occupy the spot where the BMP normally stood and something like 800 of us arrived to do that and successfully did that. Were you present at Brick Lane? I was
01:37:00 Were you present at Brick Lane? I was on the 19th of September 1993. And what was your role on the day? Uh I was a participant in the main demonstration and as a leader of wire was one of the organizers. You weren't in a stewarding position.
01:37:19 You weren't in a stewarding position. I wasn't in a stewarding position. No. And where were you situated that day? I remember being in the pen that was looking out. So the BMP arrived and stood on the opposite pavement to where they normally stood opposite our pen. So I remember being on the front of that pen looking out at them. Although when
01:37:32 pen looking out at them. Although when Lois Austin was giving evidence, I could see her but not me. But I was there somewhere. [laughter]
01:37:36 And and you you remained there throughout the demonstration. I did remain there throughout the demonstration. In the wiry witness statement, um paragraph 12.10. I don't think we need to go there. You describe a gathering of
01:37:47 to go there. You describe a gathering of 800 people to oppose the BNP's presence. Now that figure of 800, how confident are you in that figure?
01:37:58 are you in that figure? At this distance, I cannot possibly be totally. Some people have said a thousand. Maybe it was a thousand, but it was something like that. It was many hundreds. Certainly. Many hundreds. Yeah.
01:38:14 Yeah. And that, as I think you've just indicated, that wasn't just Wii. That was a number of other organizations. Absolutely. Yes. Including local people. Yes. Many local people. And how many BNP supporters were there?
01:38:27 And how many BNP supporters were there? There weren't that many. Um, that didn't stop them being provocative, by the way, that they weren't attempting to sell papers, but I vividly remember them swearing at a young Asian woman with a push chair coming past. So, you know, they were still there to intimidate people, even with all of us there. Lewis in his written evidence and we
01:38:40 Lewis in his written evidence and we again we don't need to go there but for the record UCPI50 3747
01:38:45 3747 at paragraph 45 in suggest that he he feels there were half a dozen or so BNP paper sellers. Does that sound about right to you?
01:38:57 Does that sound about right to you? Probably something like that. I mean there were other BMP people around because a group of them attacked our stewards but they weren't on the the place where
01:39:08 place where Yes. Yes. And so that that is I think you suggested they were combat 18. Is that right? Yes. Yes.
01:39:13 Yes. Yes. Uh how many members of combat 18 were there?
01:39:16 there? I didn't see them. That's the thing. Uh hours. How did you know they were there? Well, our stewards told us afterwards that they were attacked uh by them and stood their ground. I take their word for that. There's no reason they would make it up. But I didn't witness it myself. It wasn't in front of the it
01:39:27 myself. It wasn't in front of the it wasn't visible to the demonstration.
01:39:37 Uh the wire statement describes the stewards scouting the area for and then encountering combat 18. Um did you did you get a sense from those stewards? How many people
01:39:48 stewards? How many people I can't remember them. I mean you know [clears throat] they'd have they were scouting the area to keep us safe because if you've got roaming gangs of Nazis who are about to attack your peaceful demonstration, you want to know about it. So they would
01:39:59 want to know about it. So they would have come back and said to us, "God, there are CIT in here." But how many they said, "I can't remember that."
01:40:12 they said, "I can't remember that." And I I I hear your evidence and I appreciate there's a perhaps a limit to how much you can comment on this next question, which is you've already indicated that the stewards say they were pelted by bottles uh by combat 18. I think yes, that's correct. And the
01:40:23 the you say at paragraph 1210 of your statement that the stewards stand refer to them the stewards standing their
01:40:34 to them the stewards standing their ground and forcing the BNP to retreat. What do you mean by standing their ground and forcing combat 18 to retreat?
01:40:45 ground and forcing combat 18 to retreat? I cannot report on the detail whether uh but in order to stand your ground when under attack you normally do have to carry out some self-defense. I I am no street fighter but I imagine that you might have to throw a punch back but I wasn't there. I can't comment on that.
01:40:58 wasn't there. I can't comment on that. So you are the deponent of this statement. It is it was written as I understand it predominantly by not only but predominantly I understand that this section yes
01:41:06 yes is and and you've chosen the word standing their ground. Is that description really a delicate way of describing the away team or the stewards attacking the BNP?
01:41:25 stewards attacking the BNP? No, it's not. They never involved themselves in attacking. They were there to defend us and therefore to keep people safe. You do not go on the attack. It was defensive always. Uh I'd like to play a further clip from the world in action program please. Um that is a clip starting at 40 minutes
01:41:36 that is a clip starting at 40 minutes 47. Now while that while we are finding that I just want to flag up that um this footage does contain scenes of violent
01:41:49 footage does contain scenes of violent confrontations and there may be people present or watching at home who would prefer not to follow this
01:42:11 in September. The BNP was celebrating their bi-election victory at the aisle of dogs. Separated by the police, the Yre's away team under an ANL banner were protesting on the other side of the street. [cheering] Suddenly, Yre supporters, some dressed
01:42:22 Suddenly, Yre supporters, some dressed as skin heads, making up the away team, crossed over to the BNP side, pretending to be racists. They heard it uh herded the anti-fascist into the pen where the fascists were across the side of the road. As it
01:42:34 across the side of the road. As it happened, the police mistook them for fascists. The police obviously have a preconceived idea what a fascist looks like. Short hair, um play sport caps,
01:42:50 like. Short hair, um play sport caps, things like that. and it's on film for all to see what happened. They got a roster.
01:42:56 roster. The away team claim they achieved their aim of attacking and driving the BNP off the streets. If we could stop there, please. Now, we at paragraph 12.11 of the Y statement, you refer to Y members charging the BNP's paper sale and
01:43:08 charging the BNP's paper sale and scattering them in their publications after tricking the police that they were BNP supporters. Now, just so we're clear, is that what we've just seen in this clip from action?
01:43:18 action? It is. Yes. And to be clear, this appears to be a physical charge by the stewards, including wiry members. Do you agree with that? I do. Yes.
01:43:34 I do. Yes. It was a physical altercation between the groups, which resulted in a number of arrests, didn't it? It did.
01:43:34 It did. And a conviction for an offense. Well, I think there were 25 arrests. Uh, and there was one conviction for an offense, which I think says some I believe that that was preemptive
01:43:46 believe that that was preemptive self-defense. It was justified and so did the courts.
01:43:57 did the courts. We we'll come back to that in a moment. Um, were you or any of the other leaders of Wy aware of this Trojan horse attack or was it simply that they had the mistake by the police in hering people across? We were not aware of it and I think it was a mistake by the police or possibly an uh a spurof the- moment bit
01:44:10 possibly an uh a spurof the- moment bit of improvisation by the stewards because certainly either when the police started
01:44:21 certainly either when the police started shephering them across or uh in order to get the police to shepherd them across and I honestly don't know which it was they started singing rule Bratannia as the [clears throat] only song they could think of that might get them into the right-wing pen but It was a piece of
01:44:34 right-wing pen but It was a piece of improvisation. It was not planned at all and we were completely surprised by it on the other side of the street. So looking at how this program described it and you have touched on this a little earlier but for for absolute completeness do you agree with the
01:44:50 completeness do you agree with the program's description of the events that uh wiry supporters some dressed as skin heads. I think you said that that was just how they dressed. Yes. It was coincidence. It wasn't making up the away team crossed over to the BMP side pretending to be racists. Yes. and that violent clashes ensued with the BNP and the police
01:45:05 with the BNP and the police with the BNP primarily, but then people were arrested. Yes, they were we that our stewards chased them away and they didn't come back and sell there again and they were violent thugs that were terrifying the local population and
01:45:17 terrifying the local population and after we kept protesting there for weeks to make sure they didn't come back and people were cheering, applauding us. We had done something good in that community. Not that the fight against the BMP ended there. There was a lot
01:45:29 the BMP ended there. There was a lot more community action I'd like to talk about afterwards, but yeah, we were proud of it. And do you agree with the program's assertion that the away team claimed that they had achieved their aim of attacking and driving the BNP off the streets?
01:45:40 streets? Well, we succeeded in stopping them, pretending to sell their paper and frightening people on that corner. I think it would be an exaggeration to say we succeeded in driving them off the streets from that one incident. As I
01:45:52 streets from that one incident. As I say, the campaigning had to continue. and and whether or not this was a a pre-planned uh event, was it the aim of the away team to attack and drive the BMP off the streets
01:46:03 streets in that moment? Their aim was to drive the BMP out of that place and I think that was justified as self-defense given the violence that community was suffering
01:46:11 suffering and would that be the position for Yre more broadly? I cannot speak for the whole of but certainly it's my position. I just add I mean first of all as I said the courts found those that were charged with one exception who got a fine for a minor
01:46:25 exception who got a fine for a minor public order offense found them innocent which showed that the legal system and the juries agreed with us at that point in time as well. So I think that's very
01:46:38 in time as well. So I think that's very important to say but also if you look at the reports of the police spies on us through the years that followed this there's no evidence of similar actions of this kind. This was actually
01:46:49 of this kind. This was actually exceptional. Um, now if we could bring up the wiry statement at paragraph 12.12, UCPI50 37814.
01:47:16 I think that's page 35. Sorry. Thank you. You say that in my view this was an act of preemptive self-defense. It was necessary to remove the BNP from this site in order to allow the local
01:47:32 site in order to allow the local community to live, work, and move freely without the threat of fascist violence. Focusing on the specifics of this
01:47:43 Focusing on the specifics of this incident, the away team was part of what I think you were comfortable saying was a group of 800 people. Could have been more.
01:47:44 more. Yes.
01:47:49 Yes. And you've agreed that the witness statement, in his witness statement, Lewis estimates the number of BNP supporters at the bookstand for being around half a dozen in number. And I think that's borne out by that footage we've seen. It looked like it, didn't it? Yes.
01:48:01 It looked like it, didn't it? Yes. Would you accept that the BNP supporters were very heavily outnumbered? I would, although we were penned on the other side of the road. We were not part of the group that went into,
01:48:16 of the group that went into, particularly given the relative numbers of the opposing groups. Can you explain how it is that you say this was preemptive self-defense? Because the BMP were violent thugs that were going around beating up Asian people in that community. And so that in that sense,
01:48:28 that sense, it's not what they were doing on that day. Although, as I said to you, even on that day, even with all of us penned on the other side of the road, they were so proud of being thugs, they were still
01:48:39 proud of being thugs, they were still swearing at Asian passers by. Even then, it was race hate and uh Okay. So, so there there there were people being made afraid. Is that what you're saying? Yes, I absolutely am saying that. People were terrified.
01:48:55 were terrified. Were the Y or the other protesters at risk of imminent harm at the point that the away team engaged the BNP on that day? No. Although, by the way, if the away team had not been there and had not stood up to the larger group of
01:49:06 had not stood up to the larger group of C18 thugs who pelted them with bottles, we might have been under threat of harm. Yes.
01:49:14 Yes. Putting to putting aside whether it's self-defense or not, would you accept that this is an occurrence of significant public order public disorder in which wiry remembers paid a played a key part?
01:49:27 paid a played a key part? I think it was quite a minor bit of public disorder actually. I mean, you'd see a lot more at most football matches on a Saturday afternoon. I don't think it was that big an event, but it was disorder. Yes.
01:49:41 disorder. Yes. Given the numbers involved from Yre, had there been any discussion with the police about the protest? Yes, we'd organized uh police permission for the protest and so you were parted to those discussions, were you? It was the local tower hamlet's wiry from memory. I mean, I knew we had
01:49:53 from memory. I mean, I knew we had police permission, but I wasn't directly talking to the police on that occasion. Can you speak to what was discussed or agreed?
01:50:00 agreed? Well, I can't not I would be guessing from memory. That would be wrong. That's fine. Uh returning to Peter Francis's report MPS074587
01:50:11 uh wiry bundle B75
01:50:26 sorry MPS 074 587 Seven
01:50:35 and page two, please.
01:50:42 And the second block of highlighted text in paragraph two.
01:50:51 Uh in this report uh it's a report um drafted seemingly
01:51:03 uh it's a report um drafted seemingly drafted by Peter Francis and signed off on page four by Bob Lambert. It refers to the way team launching an attack from
01:51:07 from um we've heard what you say on that point.
01:51:14 point. Now the events at Brick Lane predate the official start of Mr. Francis's deployment. Yes. Do you have any memory of whether Peter Francis was present at Brick Lane? I don't. I I don't remember him. No.
01:51:34 I don't. I I don't remember him. No. Do you recall whether another UCO HN78 Trevor Morris known as uh Anthony Bobby Lewis or Bobby McGee was present at Brick Lane? No. And I wouldn't have recognized him if he had been there to be honest. Was this demonstration something which was
01:51:47 this demonstration something which was talked about within wire for some time afterwards? Did it become part of the law?
01:51:49 law? Um,
01:51:52 Um, yes, I suppose it did. Yes. So, is it something you would have expected Peter Francis to have heard about from those who were present within the wiry?
01:52:01 the wiry? Yes. I mean, it was on the regional news, so he could have heard about it without hearing about it from the Wy, but certainly he probably would have done. Yes. So, I have an eye on the time. I'm about to start a new topic. Perhaps this is convenient time for our morning break.
01:52:12 convenient time for our morning break. Certainly, we'll um break the record for
02:10:51 Sir before we leave Brick Lane, I wonder whether we could bring up um NPS 074567 page two, please.
02:11:15 [clears throat] It should be Mr. Francis's 1994 report.
02:11:22 [snorts and clears throat]
02:11:58 I think that should be 074. 4587 wiry bundle B75.
02:12:04 [clears throat]
02:12:11 So we're back at this report written in June 1994. I think we've established from the page one. This is Peter Francis's is the author of this but sometime after the
02:12:23 author of this but sometime after the events. [clears throat] And if we could look please page
02:12:33 If we could go overly. Sorry.
02:12:54 [clears throat and cough] Sorry. back a page.
02:13:03 Yes, sorry. There it is. At the bottom of page bottom section of paragraph two,
02:13:17 you were very helpfully assisted us with the um in relation to the charges and convictions on that day. And if we look at this report, we see on that occasion, it's
02:13:34 report, we see on that occasion, it's the the last I think the end of the last full third line highlighted. On that occasion, 23 away team players were arrested. Only one was eventually convicted of an offense. So those are the numbers involved there. I don't want you to name any names, but do you recall what the offense was that was where the conviction arose?
02:13:47 was where the conviction arose? Um, I recall that he received a fine uh and nothing more serious than that, but not exactly what the offense was. I'd have to go back and check that.
02:13:58 have to go back and check that. Do you recall whether it was in connection with an assault on a BNP book seller or or not? I don't. No.
02:14:09 I don't. No. Thank you very much. We'll move on. So, if we could look at the unity march in Welling on the 16th of October 1993. So this is later the same year, same
02:14:20 So this is later the same year, same year as the Brick Lane demonstration. On Saturday the 16th of October, a demonstration took place in Welling. We've heard a lot about that um during the inquiry and I I wish to dwell on it as as briefly as I am able
02:14:39 was one of the main organizers of the Unity March along with the ANL and the Indian Workers Association. Is that right?
02:14:40 right? That's right. Yes. And again, as briefly as you are able, what was the purpose of this demonstration? The purpose of the demonstration was to raise the demand that the British
02:14:53 raise the demand that the British National Party's headquarters ought to be closed down. That's what we were campaigning for. And it did actually happen under planning law a year later. If we could show you please UCPI50312.
02:15:06 Uh sir, in the wir bundles that is tab B5.
02:15:24 And this is an intelligence report by Trevor Morris dated the 22nd of June 1993. If we go over leaf please,
02:15:37 you see HN78 up at the top contributed to this report.
02:15:43 concerning a meeting of a number of groups described here as the anti-fascist collective on the 20th of June 1993.
02:15:55 And we see at the bottom of the list of organizations the Yre is named. Mhm.
02:16:02 Mhm. And if we move please to page three and the third paragraph [snorts] on that page.
02:16:12 Sorry, it's a paragraph above that as well.
02:16:18 as well. Um, there is a reference to Hannah H A N A speaking on behalf of Yre.
02:16:25 Is that you? I don't know. It could be. Do you remember attending this meeting? No. Which is not saying I didn't. We went to hundreds of meetings. I don't remember.
02:16:37 remember. So on page three again the second paragraph on the last four lines we see here it says the A and well we can see the ANA
02:16:51 the ANA and the wiry agreed to march together but AR declined as a march past the BNP bookshop would result in violence and confrontation which the ARRA is opposed to.
02:17:03 which the ARRA is opposed to. Now, according to your recollection, is that a fair record of the ARRA position at that time? The ARRA at that time were arguing there should be a march in central London because, as you've called it, this was a unity demonstration. We wanted all the
02:17:15 unity demonstration. We wanted all the anti-racist groups to take part in it, but it was their position that it would be better to march in central London. I think this because I think there were about 5,000 on their demo. So, actually the size of the two demos, there were
02:17:26 the size of the two demos, there were 50,000 on the unity demo shows I think that they didn't take the right position and I don't know if they'd hold by that position now. Um but that was what they
02:17:38 position now. Um but that was what they argued at the time. I don't think though that they argued that that was related to the question of violence directly. They thought we should be appealing to parliament etc etc. And as you say the ARI did have their own demonstration central London.
02:17:50 own demonstration central London. Was it appreci I mean this this report seems to suggest that around even in the planning phase around four months before the eventual march there was an appreciation that marching past the BMP bookshop
02:18:02 that marching past the BMP bookshop created the risk of disorder. Was that an appreciation shared by the YRE? No, we didn't think marching past the BMP headquarters would lead to disorder. We thought it was possible to have a perfectly peaceful demonstration. It became apparent closer to the
02:18:13 became apparent closer to the demonstration that the BM that the police did not seem inclined, that was our view beforehand, to allow that from the way that they were talking and behaving, but we thought an entirely peaceful demonstration was possible.
02:18:28 peaceful demonstration was possible. And to what extent did other groups decline to become involved with the unity demonstration? I can only remember the IRA. Yeah.
02:18:41 Yeah. I would uh like to play two extracts from the Violence with Violence World and Action program, please.
02:18:50 And again, I give a trigger warning that before we start the footage, this footage contains scenes of violent confrontation and people may wish to decline to view it. If we could start at 1340 please for the first clip.
02:19:05 1340 please for the first clip. Had reached the police roadblock. But who were some of the groups on the march? By far the largest were youth against racism in Europe. Yre militant who had been expelled from the labor party had set up yre to recruit young
02:19:16 party had set up yre to recruit young people from the anti-racist movement. Being a member of militant labor myself. Stop there please. And then from 1735 time stamp please.
02:19:28 time stamp please. [clears throat]
02:19:38 It occurs where there was a racial attack.
02:19:44 attack. By now, the demonstrators on the October 16th march were moving on police lines blocking the way to the fascist bookshop. Negotiations to allow a small token group through had failed. The organizers wanted all or nothing.
02:19:55 organizers wanted all or nothing. The march didn't stop. The march was stopped by the organizers who then demanded of police that the march be allowed to go past the BMP bookshop. I mean, I posed the question why. They've been served with a notice nearly a week
02:20:09 been served with a notice nearly a week before that they would not be allowed to go down past the BMP bookshop. As the demonstrators pushed forward, they found all exits, including the alternative route ordered by the police, blocked. [cheering]
02:20:28 Frustrated and hemmed in. Demonstrators began pushing and shoving. Placards were thrown. The riot police were moved in. Racism had been forgotten. It was now a fight with the police who blocked the way to the bookshop. Thank you. If we
02:20:40 way to the bookshop. Thank you. If we just stop that footage there and that can come down.
02:20:46 In the run-up to the demonstration, it must have been apparent that the march would be on a very large scale. I think you said just now um 50,000 something like that. Yes.
02:21:02 And would you agree that wiry was to account for a very significant proportion? Yes.
02:21:03 Yes. Of those participants. Yeah.
02:21:09 Yeah. The inquiry understands that there was a wire stewards meeting before the march I think in Wulitch. I think it was a joint stewards meeting with uh the INL and uh the Indian workers association as well. Did you attend that meeting? I did attend that meeting.
02:21:24 I did attend that meeting. Uh can you let us know um how you know how how many people were there? Hundreds. But how many exactly? I can't. And do you recall what was discussed?
02:21:37 And do you recall what was discussed? Yes, I do because there were differences of opinion and they were not differences of opinion about whether it should be a peaceful demonstration. We all agreed we wanted a peaceful demonstration. By that point, the police had put the exclusion order on and had made clear they were not going to allow us to march past the
02:21:56 not going to allow us to march past the BMP headquarters. And frankly, the media all week had been full of this is going to be a violent protest. All police leave has been cancelled. When you're planning a peaceful protest and the chief commissioner of the London Met is on the news saying that you're going to
02:22:08 on the news saying that you're going to be violent and all police leave has been cancelled, you start thinking you're going to get attacked by the police. And
02:22:19 going to get attacked by the police. And we did think that at that point in time. Um and we were discussing how best to respond to that. None of us was decided.
02:22:26 was decided. Well, I will come to that. Um all of us agreed. All we could do was have a token appeal of our democratic right to march past the BMP headquarters. So in other words, when we got to the point closest to the BMP headquarters, that there would be an appeal to the police to
02:22:38 would be an appeal to the police to allow us to march. We didn't expect that to succeed. and then we expected to continue with our demonstration to the agreed finish point. The disagreements were about how best to do that because the ANL were arguing and this is what
02:22:51 the ANL were arguing and this is what they did on the day. The best thing to do would be to sit down to show how peaceful we were and in in a symbolic protest. It's entirely understandable
02:23:06 protest. It's entirely understandable position. But our position was we think the police could attack this march and we have to have stewards standing up linking arms at the front of the demonstration in order to protect us from attack. They wore hard hats because after the experience of the m of a 8th of May sorry demonstration when people
02:23:21 of May sorry demonstration when people have been swacked over the head we were worried about baton charges. Um, and that was the approach that we took, but it was in order to try and protect the demonstration, of course, as if instead
02:23:32 demonstration, of course, as if instead of listening to the commentary, which as an aside is extremely cynical about militant Labour's motives, when we set up YRE, it was because we're against racism. We always want to get people to
02:23:44 racism. We always want to get people to join our organization, but they describe it in the most cynical way imaginable. But anyway, if you ignore their commentary and watch what's actually on the footage. If we could just slow down.
02:23:55 If we could just slow down. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Um, I knew I was going to be asked to slow down. And I do apologize. Um uh if you look at what's actually on the footage, the police blocked all three rout uh three parts of the demonstration. So there was nowhere
02:24:07 the demonstration. So there was nowhere to go and that's what caused the trouble and they then attacked us. I was not at the front of that march. I was stewarding much further back. So I wasn't. You've heard much more thorough um evidence [clears throat] from Lois Austin who was right out at the front negotiating with the police. But my
02:24:22 negotiating with the police. But my experience is we were patiently waiting to march, standing a long time while obviously the standoff was happening at the front and then we were being pushed back and the demo was in chaos because we couldn't go forward and people were getting shoved back by the police.
02:24:36 getting shoved back by the police. Eventually after a quite it seemed like forever, it probably wasn't period of disorder. We were able to march forward again.
02:24:42 again. You could see people with bleeding skulls sitting on the side of the road. And then I was part of the group of stewards right at the back of the
02:24:54 stewards right at the back of the demonstration after Lodge Hill had been opened that stewarded the back of the march protecting it still from the police. They were still coming at us with batons. Uh even then as all we were trying to do is get to the park and go
02:25:05 trying to do is get to the park and go home. So it really it was planned police violence. They advertised beforehand there was going to be violence and then they made sure there was. That's what happened.
02:25:13 happened. Just rewinding slightly. Sorry. No, no, not at all. It's very very useful um evidence. The as a senior member of Yre.
02:25:27 Yre. Were you involved with the liaison with the police about the demonstration before it took place? I was. Yes. And what's your recollection of any discussions you had with the police at that time? I I recall going to Scotland
02:25:41 that time? I I recall going to Scotland Yard with Lois a couple of times and us putting the case that we should be allowed to march past the BMP headquarters. And I also recall them arguing with us that we ought to cancel the demonstration and us saying, "Look, we've produced
02:25:52 and us saying, "Look, we've produced hundreds of thousands of leaflets. We can't cancel the demonstration whether we like it or not. People are coming to this demonstration and you should give us a legal uh route as is our democratic right." And at the time that you were
02:26:03 right." And at the time that you were leazing with the police, although you say hundreds of thousands of leaflets had been produced, did you have a feel for how how big the protest was going to be?
02:26:14 be? We certainly knew it was going to be big because there were coaches coming from around your the country, students, the local community were mobilizing. If you're organizing a demo, you can't tell exactly how big, but we knew it was going to be substantial.
02:26:28 going to be substantial. Now, the commissioner um served a section 12 notice under the public order act to reroute the march. What's your recollection around the service of that notice?
02:26:36 notice? I think that happened less than a week before the demonstration. Um, and as I say, my main recollection then is seeing on the TV Paul Condon saying, uh, all police leave is
02:26:47 saying, uh, all police leave is canceled. We're expecting violence and being extremely worried because we were not planning to be violent. Uh but we were worried we were going to come under attack
02:27:02 attack on the day as we've as we've established there around 50,000 people there. How would you describe the mood of the protesters? I think that the mood of the protesters uh was very pleased that it was a substantial demonstration you know because if you've organized demos
02:27:13 because if you've organized demos there's always that bit where you're standing in a field wondering whether anybody every anybody's coming and there were loads of people. So we felt a certain confidence about that. And of course, people were very frustrated
02:27:26 course, people were very frustrated because there'd been a series of racist murders, Steven Lawrence, the most recent, and the BMP headquarters, the bunker was still there and nothing had been done about it. So, they wanted to express their democratic right to protest.
02:27:40 protest. And again, on the day you said you were some way back in the protest, can you estimate how far back? How how far away from the front? I was a long way from the front. I can't tell you. I mean, I ended up, as I said, right at the back, but I didn't start
02:27:52 right at the back, but I didn't start right at the back, but I was probably in the back half all the way through. So, when Lois Austin has her discussions with the police at the front, you're not I was not there for that. And you couldn't see it?
02:28:08 And you couldn't see it? No, I couldn't see it. It was well in front of me. I couldn't even tell what was happening other than people were coming rushing back towards us. So when we heard um deputy assistant commissioner Osland in that um in that clip discussing the route, you had no part in that. No on the day.
02:28:20 the day. No, not on the day. No. Where
02:28:23 Where do you recall where you were when the violence broke out? As I say, I I could not see violence at that time because I was too far back on the demonstration. What I could see and
02:28:38 the demonstration. What I could see and feel were demonstrators were me. You're meant to be going forward then you've been standing still for ages and then demonstrators are coming back towards you running in the other direction. So it's kind of chaotic and that was obviously as a result of the police
02:28:50 obviously as a result of the police attack but I at that point couldn't see it. Later I saw people bleeding from police attack on the side of the road and I directly experienced it on that back of the demonstration as we went up Lodge Hill
02:29:02 Lodge Hill and the inquiry last week heard heard reports from the front as it were on what happened there. So I'll move on looking at the intention to destroy the bookshop if we could look at UCPI 5025698.
02:29:15 5025698. So in the Y bundle that is tab B20
02:29:35 [clears throat]
02:29:42 UCPI 5025694 four.
02:29:53 Sorry, I I misspoke the last time. Many apologies.
02:30:05 This is the SDS event proformer uh report of the Welling Unity March. And as you look in the top left hand corner, we can see that one of the the authors are listed as Trevor Morris, HN78, and HM 101.
02:30:22 And if we look at the first section of text under the summary, up until the eve of the demonstration, leaders of the participating groups were confident of achieving their goal of reaching the BNP bookshop and if practicable, destroying it.
02:30:35 it. If we could now go to Peter Francis's witness statement,
02:30:41 which is UCPI 5036012,
02:30:48 page 61 and paragraph 359.
02:31:10 and he says this. I was authorized to get involved in violence in so far as it was part of the role. The role on this particular demonstration was of a Kingsway College student and a member of the KFG
02:31:21 student and a member of the KFG accompanying a member of YRE whose sole intention was to get to the BNP bookshop to help pave the way for another group intent on burning it down. My target group was not responsible for trying to
02:31:36 group was not responsible for trying to burn down the bookshop. We did not carry any petrol or anything else to facilitate that plan. However, the briefing we received beforehand was very clear that left-wing groups intended to burn the bookshop down.
02:31:47 burn the bookshop down. You address this statement, this paragraph in the WRE statement and you say that it's untrue that leftwing groups intended to burn down the
02:31:59 groups intended to burn down the bookshop and you describe the thought of the organizers wanting to do so is just madness.
02:32:00 madness. Yes.
02:32:00 Yes. Why do you say that? Because you said earlier we wanted to destroy the bookshop. That's not true. We wanted the bookshop to be closed down. This was a mass campaign to
02:32:11 down. This was a mass campaign to mobilize people, to exert political pressure, to get authorities to close the bookshop down, and to get the BMP to feel unwelcome in Welling because the
02:32:24 feel unwelcome in Welling because the majority of the population were opposed to them. We would never have taken action to attempt to destroy the bookshop. Uh that would have been completely counterproductive. I mean, it was on a residential high street. Uh there's no way we would have proposed that in any circumstances. And generally
02:32:45 that in any circumstances. And generally our approach is that the idea of a small minority taking actions, I suppose you could call them terrorist actions if people were really trying to burn something down on behalf of a majority is completely counterproductive. We want to mobilize the majority. So we would
02:32:57 to mobilize the majority. So we would not have supported this. No left-wing group was organizing this. It's a fantasy. It's just not true. Now, in in this paragraph alone, just looking at this, do you agree that
02:33:09 looking at this, do you agree that Francis Mr. Francis doesn't explicitly say the wiry wished to burn down the bookshop?
02:33:12 bookshop? I mean, he doesn't. No. But he says that a member of Wire was trying to help get through. And I don't think that's true. You don't think that's true? Uh, is the reporting correct when it says that the unity group wished to
02:33:23 says that the unity group wished to reach the BNP bookshop? We wanted to have a peaceful protest past the BMP bookshop, but we also understood that it was not looking likely that the police
02:33:37 was not looking likely that the police would say on the day, "Yes, okay then." And therefore, what we expected was to march on the route that the police had given to us. Of course, we weren't able to do that. They blocked that off and attacked us.
02:33:49 attacked us. What do you think the political result would have been had the protesters burnt down the bookshop? I think it would have been totally counterproductive. I think it would have created sympathy for the thugs of the BMP. I wouldn't have been in favor of that.
02:34:02 in favor of that. Going to move on to an incident at the Senate off in November 93.
02:34:14 Now, Mr. Francis in his statement refers to what he reports as a planned attack on the National Front's Remembrance Day March
02:34:20 March and that is at paragraphs 378 and 379 of his witness statement. If we could bring those up please. That's page 64 of UCPI5036012
02:34:45 and he says this. I came to learn that the group intended to attack the National Front March and any stray supporters on Remembrance Day from discussions with Lewis. Further,
02:34:56 from discussions with Lewis. Further, this was standard operating for the Yre. Their slogan was no platform for fascists and their logo was a fist smashing the Nazi logo. It was one of their core objectives to hit the fascists wherever possible. I observed
02:35:10 fascists wherever possible. I observed frequent mentions from within the wiry that this is not a debating society. Paragraph 379. I cannot remember exactly what the wiry supporters on this particular demonstration did to get
02:35:23 particular demonstration did to get themselves arrested. It was not unusual for these events to involve violent confrontations between the wiry and the fascists.
02:35:30 fascists. Was attacking the right-wing whenever possible standard operating for the RE? No, it wasn't. Can I just say something on this question of no platform? Because I don't I don't think he understands it. We do have a position of no platform for
02:35:44 We do have a position of no platform for fascists, but it's a political position. It's saying we don't think they're the same as other political trends because
02:35:55 same as other political trends because when fascism came to power, it destroyed all elements of democracy, smashed the trade unions, introduced brutal dictatorships, and we've never had more than small gangs of fascistic thugs in Britain. But nonetheless, they go around physically
02:36:08 nonetheless, they go around physically attacking the left, the workers movement minorities. And therefore we think that the workers movement, the trade unions should campaign against them being given an airring oppose for example the BNP getting to be on question time to put out their racist filth. Of course when
02:36:23 out their racist filth. Of course when they do get a platform our answer is to politically argue with them and to defeat them in argument. Um so he's misunderstanding something. It was never our position to go around attacking fascists and our pro our our stewards
02:36:37 fascists and our pro our our stewards were there for defensive reasons because of the violence of the fascists. Looking back at uh Mr. Francis's statement when do you recall the phrase this is not a debating society being used at wiry meetings?
02:37:02 Not really. No, I don't think I do. In those paragraphs, Mr. Francis refers to the WRE logo. Is he right that the WY logo was a fist smashing a Nazi logo? It wasn't the WY logo, but there was a Wy logo on some of the placards, the
02:37:17 Wy logo on some of the placards, the little red ones. Actually, you can see them in the film footage. There is a fist smashing through uh um a Nazi symbol. There's others where it's putting a Nazi symbol in a waste paper basket, a little cartoon person squashing. You know, there were all sorts of things to illustrate that we
02:37:29 sorts of things to illustrate that we wanted to defeat the Nazis, but it did not mean violence. Would you accept that such an image with a fist could be construed as a violent image?
02:37:39 image? I I think that Peter Francis knew perfectly well it wasn't a violent image. He's just clutching at straws. So, you've mentioned the logo of the swastika being put in the bin. I think
02:37:53 swastika being put in the bin. I think is is it fair to say that that has been adopted more frequently subsequently? probably. Yes. And why did that achieve prevalence?
02:38:05 And why did that achieve prevalence? I I think you're reading more into that than is worth reading into it. We've had different logos at different times.
02:38:11 So there was was there any catalyst of a change for a change?
02:38:21 If we could turn please to UCPI50 346.
02:38:24 346. So that is in the Y bundle tab B24.
02:38:37 This is a single page report and we can see from the header it's dated 14th of November 1993. Oh, it's in it's the the date of the event I think is 14th of November 1993.
02:38:49 November 1993. The location is given as Victoria station and the numbers present include 80 from Y. If we look at the text of the report, it says this.
02:39:02 says this. This event was organized by Lewis under the WY banner. Although the yre contingent comprised members of the KFG, RA militant panther and y lewis and privacy the y chief steward were in
02:39:14 privacy the y chief steward were in charge on the day. Their intention was to attack the national front remembrance day march which was gathering nearby or alternatively any stray NF national
02:39:27 alternatively any stray NF national front supporters they may come across. Plans were thwarted by preventative police action and only two hapless skin heads were encountered and confronted resulting in the arrest of two wiry supporters.
02:39:40 supporters. If I could ask you to look at the cipher list on your desk.
02:39:54 Mhm. And I think there should be I think it's the the the one at the foot of the list, the bottom one on the list. Yeah, got it. Relating to this. Mhm. Do you see that person that is that is a name, please don't say it, of the person who is under that privacy redaction as the chief steward.
02:40:07 the chief steward. Do you recall that person being the chief steward at this at this event? No.
02:40:09 No. No, you don't recall or no, he wasn't. No. No, I don't recall. He was sometimes a chief steward. I don't recall if he was for this event.
02:40:21 was for this event. And what do you say to the assertion that the intention of the group on that day was to attack members of the National Front? I I do not accept that. The idea would have been to protest against the cheek of Nazis laying a wreath on Remembrance Day. Uh but not to attack Nazis at all.
02:40:36 Day. Uh but not to attack Nazis at all. And actually what it actually describes is not much happening, is it? Uh do you recall there being arrests at this event? I don't to be honest, I don't recall the event.
02:40:48 event. Now we've already seen that the chief steward for the SEAF event has been named. If we [clears throat] could turn Now please to UCPI50 3473
02:41:00 3473 sir that's wire bundle B50.
02:41:23 Now again you can check your cipher list but you will [snorts] see that there is a name on the cipher list of that person and the person about whom this performer is drafted is the person who was listed
02:41:36 is drafted is the person who was listed as the chief steward at the senate half.
02:41:48 as the chief steward at the senate half. Mhm. Page two of the report, second paragraph says of that steward that they privacy does not generally advocate violence and he has been known to attempt to stop violence being directed against the police. If provoked, however, he will respond in the true militant wiry fashion by any means necessary.
02:42:05 necessary. [snorts] Again, not using this person's name, how do how do these reports compare to your own memory and experience of that individual? He certainly never advocated violence,
02:42:18 certainly never advocated violence, may well have attempted to stop violence being directed against the police, and was an extremely probably still is an extremely peaceable person. The last sentence is just hyperbole, isn't it? What does it mean? Uh, we've never responded by any means necessary. We've been prepared to defend ourselves, that's all.
02:42:31 that's all. Thank you. Um, and just for completeness, did you have you ever seen this person act violently in self-defense? No, I haven't. Not seen it. Never see it's never seen that violently in any way whatsoever.
02:42:47 whatsoever. Thank you. I'm going to move on now to the events in uh Beacon Tree and Earl's Court.
02:42:47 Court. Yes.
02:42:48 Yes. On the 5th of January, 1994. So, this was an event uh involving a protest against a blood and honor concert in East London on the 15th of January 94.
02:42:59 January 94. Yes.
02:43:05 Yes. Which evolved into a confrontation between protesters and the police at court.
02:43:08 court. Earthquort station. We've heard in evidence about this in some detail from Miss Austin and and again my questions today are intended to be brief and I hope not to trespass too much on
02:43:20 hope not to trespass too much on evidence that we've already heard. The inquiry understands that you took part in the protest against combat 18 blood and honor gig. I did. Yes. If we could bring up an intelligence report, please. UCPI 5029708.
02:43:42 So that is um Yre bundle tab B34.
02:43:51 [snorts]
02:44:00 This is the report to which I believe Peter Francis and Trevor Morris HM78 both contributed. It records participants being drawn from a number of what he describes as left-wing groups including the Anti-Nazi League ANL WR AFA anti-fascist action.
02:44:17 League ANL WR AFA anti-fascist action. Does that sound correct to you in terms of a coalition of protesters? There were definitely different anti-racist organizations there and I remember people from the Anti-Nazi League and obviously from W. I don't
02:44:30 League and obviously from W. I don't remember anyone from Antifascist Action, but I'm not saying they weren't there now. I just don't remember. If we could scroll please to page three, paragraph five under the heading Youth Against Racism in Europe.
02:44:47 The report states a group of about 100 comprising members of the Kingsway anti-fascist group KFG under Lewis [snorts] Wy the revolutionary internationalist league rail and militant went to old street station in small units of about five activists to
02:45:00 small units of about five activists to oppose a blood honor gig. This alliance of anti-fascists is notable because it contains mostly streetwise activists who are courageous in battle almost to the point of madness.
02:45:12 point of madness. Do you recognize that description of the group?
02:45:18 group? No, I don't. Um, you know, I don't think they were anything to the point of madness.
02:45:21 madness. Looking at the language that is used in this report, courageous in battle, is that the kind of language that would have been used by members of Wori? No. Look, it really wasn't. It was not our approach. We were always only
02:45:34 our approach. We were always only interested in defending protests, defending our demonstrations. it. This is just wild exaggeration to justify spying on us, frankly.
02:45:48 spying on us, frankly. Now, the SDS report suggests that page two that the protest was intended to take place in East London and then later confirmed to have been in Beacon Tree.
02:45:59 confirmed to have been in Beacon Tree. Uh I think you met in Barking then moved to Beacon Tree. I think so. Yes. What sort of mood was there in the group between Barking and Beacon? Um,
02:46:11 Um, no. I mean, no specific mood. We were there to protest against the Blood and Honor gig. Um, I can't I don't know what you're asking for really. I don't know what to say about the mood. I mean, was it was it angry?
02:46:30 I mean, was it was it angry? Not especially. I mean, you know, we uh oppose the far right. Um, we do not like people who openly go around supporting Nazis, which Blood and Honor did, but we weren't particularly angry that day. We were just there to protest as we did on many other occasions.
02:46:42 many other occasions. And there was a police presence at Beacon, wasn't there? There was. Yes. What sort of police presence was there? I have less clear memories of this than Lois, but I do remember us kind of
02:46:53 Lois, but I do remember us kind of walking along the side of some fairly major road um and having kind [clears throat] of riot police vans all around us. There seemed to be quite a big police presence with us all day from my memory. And then I remember being
02:47:05 my memory. And then I remember being kettled when we got back to uh Beacon Tree.
02:47:08 Tree. If we could move over to page four of that document, please. There's a reference here to fighting taking place in Bow Road between skin heads and anti-fascists. And the report suggests that Ms. Austin negotiated with the police for a special
02:47:27 negotiated with the police for a special train to transport the protesters to Bow Road to join the fry. Does that accord with your memory of the event? Not remotely for two reasons. One is I don't remember anything about bow road after that demonstration in beacon tree. We were all trying to get home. That was
02:47:40 We were all trying to get home. That was all we were interested in. And also um I think Lois was not negotiating. Both me and her and others were discussing with the police that we wanted to go home. Um but we were given no options because we
02:47:51 but we were given no options because we were completely surrounded by the police and they said your one option to get out of here to is to get on this tube. I don't think that's a successful negotiation. I think that's been given orders and we had no choice.
02:48:11 orders and we had no choice. Yeah. So, so when it refers to Miss Austin accepting transport on a special train, your your evidence is there wasn't really there was no choice. No.
02:48:29 Were was anybody able to leave from Beacon without boarding that train? No, I think everybody had to get on the train.
02:48:33 train. What's your recolle rec recollection of the role of the stewards on that day in the period prior to boarding the train? Prior to boarding the train, we'd had stewards uh marching on the edge of our kind of uh loose demonstration to
02:48:45 kind of uh loose demonstration to protect us, but not actually doing anything. The stewards weren't didn't play any role. They didn't need to, thankfully, because there was no presence of the far right.
02:48:53 right. There was no presence of the far right, and the police were not attacking us. They were just surrounding us. And then at that point and then the report goes on on page four halfway through the first paragraph.
02:49:05 halfway through the first paragraph. Once the train dubbed the Red Express arrived and the demonstrators, including a number of ANL activists who were in the vicinity, had boarded it, it became clear that the police had no intention
02:49:17 clear that the police had no intention of delivering their charges to Bow Road and the train went non-stop to Wells
02:49:28 and the train went non-stop to Wells Court. There was some confrontation with police at Ears Court station and at least seven members of the group including Lois Austin sustained injuries.
02:49:36 Did you stop anywhere on route? We'd been told we were going to Victoria. It wasn't Bow Road. We were told we were going to Victoria. And when we got to Victoria, the train did stop, but the doors didn't open. We couldn't
02:49:49 but the doors didn't open. We couldn't get off. And then we moved on to Court. When you disembarked the train, was there an immediate police presence on the platform? Yes, there were police surrounding us kind of on the platform,
02:50:01 kind of on the platform, but then as we walked up the stairs or escalators, I can't remember which it was. We were on the left hand, we were on No, we're on the right hand side and on the left hand side were riot police.
02:50:13 on the left hand side were riot police. Um, and I mean it seems ridiculous now, but even though it did seem a bit odd, all these police in the station, we were still relaxed because we thought the day was over. You've had a long day
02:50:25 was over. You've had a long day protesting. You've been arguing with the police to get to go home. We thought we were going to get to go home. So, we were all completely relaxed waiting to get out of court station. And then we got to the top and the metal gates were
02:50:38 got to the top and the metal gates were shut and they just laid into us, beating us up. Honestly, it was incredible. And Lois has told more story than I need to here because she was attacked. I wasn't attacked. But they briefly opened the gates. I fell out onto the street
02:50:54 gates. I fell out onto the street outside in kind of the push out. Another anti-racist activist picked me up, lifted me kind of over the sort of waist high metal gu thing that they have on
02:51:06 high metal gu thing that they have on the edge of protest that was there onto the street in S Court. And then I ran. And next to me was a guy running with his head bleeding. And I've always felt guilty about this because Lois was being beaten up while I was running away. But that's what happened. Um, and then I
02:51:23 that's what happened. Um, and then I went back to the militant labor offices at that point in time and tried to get press publicity for what had happened and could not get any. We never thought we got the publicity we deserved. But on that occasion, I am certain the police had put the word out, don't cover this because it was an entirely conscious
02:51:36 because it was an entirely conscious attack on us. Um, we were just going home and they it was a it was a massive assault.
02:51:47 assault. In your witness statement, you've described it as Did you want to take a moment or you No, I'm okay. Continue.
02:51:50 Continue. You've described it as a savage police attack
02:51:53 attack which our stewards were not able to defend protesters from.
02:52:00 Do you know how many protesters sustained injuries? Um I mean a lot did. Um I couldn't give an accurate number but I think that Lois
02:52:11 an accurate number but I think that Lois said when she was in casualty there were 25 30 people with it all with head injuries. So you know a lot were injured and
02:52:20 and you've covered it to an extent but I just wish to look a little bit more about the location.
02:52:27 location. Mhm. The attack didn't take place on the platform.
02:52:30 platform. It was at the top. It was at the top of the stairs when we got to the sort of the ticket hall area. Exactly. Yes.
02:52:41 But from the moment you arrive at El's court. Is it right that you were aware of a heavy police presence? Yes. And thought it was strange but did not draw the necessary conclusions about what was going on. You've mentioned that you saw police in riot gear. Yeah.
02:52:52 Yeah. Were all the police present in riot gear or were others in standard unit? I don't think so. I think some of the ones on the platform were in standard uniform.
02:53:02 Did you see any police sustaining injuries?
02:53:06 injuries? No, not at all. At any point? No. And and honestly, there were there were no two sides in this. It was just an assault on us.
02:53:17 this. It was just an assault on us. What if any role did the stewards have at court that day? None. I mean, I'm not blaming them. As you heard from Dan Gilman, he was arrested, but everybody was caught completely off guard, uh, was going home. Uh, so there was no stewarding.
02:53:32 home. Uh, so there was no stewarding. Did you witness any aggression toward the police? No, we were too busy being frightened. I mean, if you say if if you're talking about Julie Donovan lying on top of Lois, which I did not witness because I was gone by that stage saying, "Get off her. Get off her." If you're calling
02:53:45 her. Get off her." If you're calling that aggression, but honestly, we were just under attack. There was no and were you aware of any catalyst? There was no honestly there was no catalyst.
02:54:02 The evidence that the inquiry has heard from you today and and from those last week
02:54:07 week suggests that there was something quite different about the events on that day to any of the other protests and confrontations that that we've heard about. Is is that right? Yes, I think that is right in the sense that all of
02:54:19 that is right in the sense that all of the others were us organizing a protest, the police perhaps acting violently towards us on that protest, but this was just an unprovoked attack. We literally weren't doing anything other than going home to our houses.
02:54:40 I'd like to move on to some descriptions of individuals within uh reports, please.
02:54:42 please. uh in in your in the WRE witness statement, you address certain reports which um record Y activists as being
02:54:53 which um record Y activists as being violent. And I'd like to examine those with you if I may. If we could show first MPS-0245108,
02:54:58 sir, that is in the Y bundle B128.
02:55:07 Miss, you you may be assisted by your cipher list.
02:55:19 Sorry. 024 5108.
02:55:49 Thank you very much. I think we can probably deal with just the first page. This is uh an upto-date an information proformer dated the 24th of May 1995 relating to an individual whose name is listed on the cipher list. Have you have you been able to reconcile that with the person? Yes, I have. Yeah.
02:56:03 I have. Yeah. at um PEX which I believe is personal characteristics. The record states violent strong Irish
02:56:16 The record states violent strong Irish accent. The final sentence of this read, privacy can be depended on to join in any away team activity should the fascist threat ever reemerge on the streets.
02:56:26 Do you know the person named in this report?
02:56:27 report? I did know him. Yes, I did. Did you ever witness that person being violent? No, never. Uh, including in self-defense. Including in self-defense. I never witnessed him being violent in any
02:56:41 witnessed him being violent in any capacity whatsoever. And these reports, and there's a number of them, saying completely peaceable people are violent. Imagine what consequences that might have had in the rest of their lives. That that's on an official police record for doing nothing. I mean, these
02:56:54 for doing nothing. I mean, these accusations of these people being violent in these reports and yet does not correspond with ever any concrete reports of violent incidents in Peter Francis or later Carlo Ner's reports.
02:57:07 Francis or later Carlo Ner's reports. Well, we're going to look at a couple more and I think I think this this may illustrate your point. The next I'd like to look at is MPS 0245109.
02:57:21 And that's wiry bundle B129. Sir,
02:57:29 it's another up to-date and information proform again dated 24th of May 1995 relating to a further individual listed on your cipher list. Yeah.
02:57:44 Yeah. Here again, PECS PEX uh violent. Did you know the person named in this report?
02:57:48 report? I do know him. Yes. And he is not violent. Have you have you ever witnessed this person being violent? No, I've never witnessed him being violent.
02:58:02 violent. And I would also add it appears that he not No, not in self-defense. He's never been violent. And actually, um, as it says here, he's an activist in the Disabled Action Network, a disabled Rights Organization. So, effectively, that's what they've been spying on in spying on him.
02:58:13 spying on him. And then the last one of these I'd like to look at is NPS 245258.
02:58:24 Sir, that is in wiry bundle at B140.
02:58:34 This is an upto-date and information performer dated the 5th of July 1995 relating to a further individual again whose name's on that cipher list. Do do you have that?
02:58:48 you have that? Yes. Got it. Yes. And once more in PEX, the person is simply described as violent. [clears throat] Yeah.
02:58:53 Yeah. This time the report does give a little more detail. So if we look at the bottom in the comments section, Privacy is an extremely active member of ML participating in most of their street activities and those of its front organization YRE.
02:59:06 organization YRE. He has been involved with the ML Stewing group, the Away Team, having participated in the reclamation of Brick Lane from the BNP and the attack on a Nazi spotter for the intended blood and
02:59:17 Nazi spotter for the intended blood and honor gig at Baker Street Tube where he was arrested. And if we scroll down to page two, uh, for completeness, this sets out his involvement with the organization.
02:59:35 Do you know did you know the the person named in this report? Yes.
02:59:38 Yes. What do you understand street activity to mean?
02:59:41 to mean? Well, I don't know what they mean by it actually.
02:59:46 actually. So, is it not a term that you would use? Well, that's the thing. We would use street activity to mean going and selling the socialist to people on a Saturday, but I suspect that isn't what this report means.
02:59:59 this report means. So, you it follows I think does it follow that your understanding of street activity is is not a synonym for violence?
02:59:59 violence? No.
03:00:01 No. And did you ever witness this person being violent at Brick Lane or anywhere else?
03:00:07 else? So to the best of my knowledge, this person was not at Brick Lane. Um, but I and I never saw him being violent, but I would say he was someone who did help in our stewarding. And if you were in the
03:00:21 our stewarding. And if you were in the position that Lois was in, for example, at the front of that demonstration having riot police beating you over the head, he's someone you'd like quite like to have standing next to you. he could defend himself.
03:00:37 How were you able to say that if you didn't see him? Well, I didn't see him I I I didn't see him at Brick Lane. I never I don't think he was at Brick Lane, but I can say that when on demonstrations, we'd say we're
03:00:48 when on demonstrations, we'd say we're worried that the BNP might attack this demonstration. He is somebody who would say, "I don't mind being a steward at the front, linking arms to prevent them attacking." So, I never saw him being
03:01:03 attacking." So, I never saw him being violent, but I knew he was someone who's prepared to put himself in the front row.
03:01:08 row. I know you've already gone some way to explain this, but what is it that concerns you about these reports labeling the individuals of violence? These are individuals who have lives, who have jobs. Um, and it's officially
03:01:21 who have jobs. Um, and it's officially on police records on no basis whatsoever that they were violent. And I can imagine that could have affected their careers. You know, I think it's outrageous.
03:01:32 outrageous. I'm going to move now to the Wii summer camp in Bavaria in 1994. It's a completely different topic.
03:01:45 It's a completely different topic. Uh, could we bring up please UCPI 50471 please?
03:01:54 So that is in the wiry bundle at B49.
03:02:09 Now this is a report dated in the b at the bottom of the page as 11th of March 1994
03:02:11 1994 and it records that you and Lois Austin were the organizers of the wire international summer conference in Bavaria which we can see from the header of that document.
03:02:26 document. We were the organizers of the contingent from Britain. We weren't the organizers of the whole camp. Um
03:02:38 other than that very helpful clarification is this report broadly correct?
03:02:38 correct? I think so. Yes. Can you explain again quite briefly if we can what the camp was?
03:02:53 we can what the camp was? So uh in Britain, Germany, Belgium, France and probably other countries wiry was a very big youth organization at this point in time. And so we had the idea that it would be good to all come together for a camp which had some political discussions on different issues but was largely social. We had
03:03:09 issues but was largely social. We had gigs in the evenings, a chill out tent, you know, it it was anti-racist activists getting together from across uh Europe. There was a big holiday element to it actually. And was this a recurring event or planned as a one-off?
03:03:21 planned as a one-off? No, it was a one-off. We didn't do it again. It was a lot of hard work as well as being holiday. Um if we could please bring up another report UCPI503489
03:03:30 sir that is Yre bundle B66.
03:03:42 This is another report by Peter Francis this time dated 17th of May 1994 um which now describes the event as the
03:03:53 um which now describes the event as the summer international anti-Nazi camp. And if we could please scroll down now to page two.
03:04:02 What is this document? That is a leaflet advertising the camp.
03:04:10 And so we've got uh international anti-Nazi camp, no pasaran, and a slightly more bucolic wiry logo on the right hand side. Indeed.
03:04:17 Indeed. Um,
03:04:28 when it's described as international anti-Nazi camp, what did that title or description mean? It it meant what it said. It was we were all activists against the far right in our own countries and we were coming together to discuss that to talk about it.
03:04:41 it. Now, if we could just look at this document a little closer, there are a number of references to fighting. Uh, in the leftmost column, still on page two, you it says this. Angry,
03:04:55 page two, you it says this. Angry, frustrated, hate the Nazis, then fight back and get organized. In the middle column on page two, what is the Y international camp and who can come? Anybody who wants to fight the fascist is invited.
03:05:09 What did those references to fighting Nazis mean in the context of this camp? It meant organizing, campaigning. If you come to a Socialist Party meeting, you will hear us talking about fighting all
03:05:23 will hear us talking about fighting all the time. And we're saying fighting for democratic trade unions, fighting to build a new workers party as an alternative to the new new Labor government. We use it as a phrase to mean campaigning, putting our ideas, we do not mean physically fighting or
03:05:37 do not mean physically fighting or violence in any way whatsoever. So if we look at some of the things that are are going on at this c we're scheduled to go on at the camp the middle column of that
03:05:50 on at the camp the middle column of that page we see the sub we see organizing in the schools
03:05:56 and then there's a subsection I think in the right hand right most column subheaded police which reads how many times has an anti-fascist demonstration you've joined been broken up by the
03:06:09 you've joined been broken up by the police or you're meeting banned the the camp will discuss how to fight for the right to organize and then we also see defend our communities reverse the fear discuss making communities no-go areas for fascists
03:06:20 fascists and then overleaf sorry at the foot of page two and then overleaf to page three we can see a list of activities live music rave against the Nazis football swimming film night
03:06:33 swimming film night how closely did the event proper resemble the program suggested by this flyer.
03:06:42 flyer. I think it did from what I can remember. Yes.
03:06:49 Was it was it in essence a a youth camp? Yes, it was a a socialist scout jamboree. Yes, if you and we wouldn't have advertised it like that, but yes. [laughter]
03:07:09 If we could look now, please though to a to to a different description of it at um page 67 of Peter Francis's witness witness statement, please. That's UCPI50 36012,
03:07:13 36012, paragraph 398, page 67.
03:07:27 says of this camp, "It was a very dangerous event. The [snorts] Wiry had intentionally set up camp in deep neo-Nazi territory. I believe to be intentionally
03:07:39 believe to be intentionally antagonistic. However, I did not witness any violence that week. The camp was heavily fortified and guarded by the WRE in the event of any neo-Nazi attack, but no such attack took place."
03:07:54 If we could now turn please to MPS 072-6970
03:08:00 Y bundle B220 sir
03:08:19 which is another description that um Mr. Francis has set out of this event. If we look at page 25, paragraphs 120 and 12 uh 120
03:08:21 uh 120 and 121.
03:08:29 He says this, I traveled over to Germany. Di Lambert was tasked to be my backup who went on a cycling holiday in some part of Germany, but who in reality was several miles away from the camp set in the middle of a remote Bavarian forest. The camp was guarded by the
03:08:41 forest. The camp was guarded by the highest possible security and there really would have been no way that I could have got any cry for help got sorry got out any cry for help or that
03:08:53 sorry got out any cry for help or that it would have been responded to. I was absolutely on my own in a foreign country surrounded by violent left-wing activists at an intense political education camp. And then at paragraph 121, he says, "There was a group there
03:09:05 121, he says, "There was a group there known as the Black Block who were very violent anarchists. My false persona was one of somebody who had had a propensity for violence, and I therefore got in
03:09:16 for violence, and I therefore got in with this group who provided security at the camp. They had a lot of former Eastern block weapons, including AK-47 guns and night vision equipments." Now, it's quite a different description of this event.
03:09:30 of this event. Do you recognize Mr. Francis's description of the camp? Not at all. Honestly, this is this is a fantasy. It's really ludicrous. And
03:09:41 fantasy. It's really ludicrous. And honestly, if he really saw people with AK-47s, why on earth didn't he do something about it? Reported to somebody. This was a peaceful socialist camp with plenty of a bit of partying,
03:09:54 camp with plenty of a bit of partying, enjoying, talking, sports. This is just nonsense.
03:09:57 nonsense. Did the camp have the highest possible security?
03:10:02 security? No. Look, at nighttime we had some patrols walking around the perimeter of the camp just in case there was any Nazi attack. We never saw anything. It was just literally walking around the camp, but that was it. I mean, the idea that he couldn't have got out. People were
03:10:18 he couldn't have got out. People were wandering off into nearby villages to go and experience the local beer. I mean, it's this is a fantasy. Um, were you aware of the presence of the black block described by Mr. Francis?
03:10:25 Francis? No.
03:10:29 No. Do you recall whether Mr. Francis became involved with the security arrangements. I don't I don't recall him at it, but if he was involved in the security rel um arrangements, it literally would have
03:10:42 arrangements, it literally would have been on a rotor that it was your turn to walk around the edge of the camp with somebody else with a torch keeping an eye out for anything unusual. That was the security arrangements. They've already said in relation to the AK-47 suggestion,
03:10:55 AK-47 suggestion, why didn't he do anything? Did I take it from that you never saw any uh saw any weapons of any kind whatsoever?
03:11:09 You've touched upon this a little to to what extent do you remember Peter Francis being at the camp. Not at all or a little?
03:11:20 a little? I'm not sure I do at all. Um no, I'm not. He obviously was, but I can't picture him.
03:11:29 So does it follow that you don't recall him doing anything to try and stand out or impress senior members of Wii or militant?
03:11:30 militant? No, not there. No. And that isn't something that came up when you were discuss when you were putting this this report? No.
03:11:46 Um, there is in relation to this camp, and I'm not sure you're going to be able to help us with it, but I put it out of completeness. Mr. Francis has said that during his deployment,
03:12:02 during his deployment, he he had a one night stand with a woman at the camp in Bavaria whom he claims was a very senior member of Wyan Militant.
03:12:04 Militant. Do you recall any of that? I have no knowledge of that whatsoever. people's private lives of their own. So, you know, why would I? Um, but I would say all of these reports of what he was
03:12:16 say all of these reports of what he was experiencing, doesn't it sound more like he was also at a jamboree enjoying himself if that's true? But I know nothing of anything of the kind. And while we're on this topic, were were you made aware were you aware or made
03:12:30 you made aware were you aware or made aware of Mr. Francis having any sexual relationships during the time he was undercover with your No, I knew of none. None. Would it have been considered unusual or suspicious that Mr. Francis did not appear to have any romantic or sexual relationships?
03:12:44 any romantic or sexual relationships? No. People's private lives are their own. You know, we we wouldn't have thought anything of it in any direction.
03:12:54 I'm going to move now to Mr. Francis's involvement in the uh organizations uh which I will try and do as as quickly as I can. In the wiry witness statement UCPI5037814
03:13:11 at paragraph 16.4 you state you have no clear recollection of whether Mr. Francis was actually elected as branch secretary of y. Now to clarify your evidence on this when you refer to having no recollection of him becoming
03:13:25 having no recollection of him becoming the branch secretary of the hackne do I take it that you're not definitively asserting he didn't hold that position but simply that you are unaware. Yes. Exactly. And we unfortunately I can't find any written record of who the branch secretary of Hacknewire is. So it
03:13:38 branch secretary of Hacknewire is. So it it could have been true but I don't know that it was.
03:13:46 that it was. And as as we can see on the screen you do agree that he was an active member of the Hackne branch and he did represent the branch at some national meetings. Yes certainly that's true. And it's also true that he became secretary of the militant labor branch. Um if he had been appointed to that role do would you have expected somebody
03:13:59 do would you have expected somebody involved in the drafting of the wire statement to have recalled No, I mean he wouldn't have been
03:14:10 No, I mean he wouldn't have been appointed. He would have been elected by the local branch. Um, and nobody who's put the statement together was in the Hackne branch. So, you wouldn't necessarily remember. This was a youth organization. You know, it was fairly ad hoc. A local group would say, "We want you to be the secretary," and they'd do it.
03:14:22 it. So, presumably there are no long-term records being kept. I'm afraid not. If if we would been further into the modern era, there might be, but there aren't. [laughter] If Mr. Francis is correct and he he did become a wiry branch secretary. Aside
03:14:34 become a wiry branch secretary. Aside from having access to members contact details and potentially maybe banking details, would he have had access to
03:14:45 details, would he have had access to private or secret information about wiry activity that was likely to lead to public disorder and that wouldn't have been known outside the group? No, because we didn't have any. We we had no secrets. We did everything publicly. So, no, he couldn't have found
03:14:58 publicly. So, no, he couldn't have found he could have found out, as you've said, individuals addresses and other information which is potentially intrusive, but he couldn't have found out any political information that wasn't available just by coming to one of our public meetings.
03:15:12 of our public meetings. In in his statement, Mr. Francis states that he was asked to take responsibly responsibility for being wiry security officer. Now, I think you've explained in your statement and and already today that the wiry didn't have security
03:15:25 that the wiry didn't have security officers. Could those positions have existed on an informal basis? I don't think so. No. Um I I never recall anybody using the phrase security officer. There might have been somebody
03:15:38 officer. There might have been somebody who quite often was a steward, but there weren't security officers. No.
03:15:44 Uh you've also explained in your personal witness statement, which I think we'll bring up in May, UCPI50783.
03:15:54 If we could go please to page 34 and paragraph 12.3
03:16:03 [clears throat]
03:16:15 you say this let's be absolutely clear here sorry you explain that wiry wasn't concerned by informants and you say let's be absolutely clear here everything Yi did was public and open events that we organized would either be advertised in the pages of the militant newspaper always the result of
03:16:32 newspaper always the result of discussions held in public. We organized openly. We had public meetings. The demonstrations we were organizing uh we were printing tens of thousands of leaflets if not hundreds of thousands of leaflets for those demonstrations. We weren't worried about informants because we weren't hiding anything.
03:16:45 we weren't hiding anything. Were there any meetings that ordinary members would not have been invited to? Say for example a type of executive committee type gathering of the y
03:16:55 of the y of the y
03:17:06 of the y I mean we would have had uh y national committee meetings which would have been a delegate from the different branches that came together. I think there's a report on one of them somewhere but they weren't hidden from ordinary members. Um, ordinary members could have attended if they wanted to, but in practice,
03:17:19 if they wanted to, but in practice, every branch would elect someone who would go along uh and have those uh discussions. And within [snorts] branches? Not within branches? No. Um,
03:17:26 Um, in relation to concerns about infiltration, was not concerned about being infiltrated by the far right?
03:17:36 Perhaps we should have been more, but no, we weren't actually. Um, can you say why not? Our view was that it mattered that we had proper stewarding to protect us at our public
03:17:50 stewarding to protect us at our public events. Um, but we didn't think that the far right were trying to actually infiltrate us. And I don't think they did either. And as far as state infiltration was concerned, our view was
03:18:02 infiltration was concerned, our view was they shouldn't waste their money because we had nothing to hide. We we genuinely weren't concerned about it. If we could turn now to an intelligence report of the 27th of September 94 which is UCPI 5034513
03:18:14 as that is bundle uh wiry bundle B94.
03:18:34 And if we look please at the first paragraph you can see that the um London it notes that the London branches of the wiry held elections and then down to the second paragraph
03:18:45 second paragraph it recalls that Peter Johnson which is Mr. Francis's cover name was elected as secretary and wiry executive delegate of wiry hackne branch.
03:18:56 wiry hackne branch. What if any influence within the organization would Mr. Francis have had in this role? Well, as a secretary, you'd be someone who was responsible for organizing meetings, um, for contacting supporters
03:19:10 meetings, um, for contacting supporters about different things, potentially for speaking at trade union meetings on behalf of Wii. So, yes, he was taking on responsibility that could have had, uh, influence.
03:19:21 influence. Would the secretary have had any particular powers to shape the direction of the organization? Not on his own because it's a democratic organization. So, any major proposals have to go to a branch to be discussed. you know, we wouldn't have just acted unilaterally or been able to.
03:19:37 unilaterally or been able to. And would they have had any permissions or privileges in relation to information held by
03:19:42 held by in terms of members information? Yes, that he would have had addresses, phone numbers, etc.
03:19:49 Um, and you've already said that you do recall Mr. Francis being elected militant labor branch secretary in Hackne. And obviously just for for complete clarity, this would have been a separate position to any position he may have held within Wori.
03:20:00 have held within Wori. Completely. Yes. You describe that role, militant labor branch secretary in Hackne, as a crucial one. Why is that?
03:20:15 one. Why is that? Because for us, a secretary is like most militant labor branches and socialist party branches today would have a branch committee which is all of the elected officers. um the chair, the treasurer, but the branch secretary is the key
03:20:30 but the branch secretary is the key position in terms of being the person who calls meetings of the branch committee, who again doesn't act on their own. They're in discussion, what but would make the proposals of what issues the branch was going to discuss at its meetings, what the campaigning
03:20:45 at its meetings, what the campaigning priorities should be, and again would be one of the people who would add access to information about how much dues people were paying, their addresses, etc.
03:20:54 etc. Thank you very much, sir. I I'm mindful of the time. I've got to the end of a section of questioning. I'm afraid I'm not going to finish this morning. Um
03:21:04 Um I wonder whether it's prudent to break for lunch
03:21:07 for lunch or
03:21:12 or we need to finish um this witness's evidence [snorts] because we have another one this afternoon. Indeed. I I don't think it will take too long, but it's more than I will be able to do in four minutes. Well,
03:21:21 Well, time in your hands. How how long is it going to take? I would have thought 10 to 15 minutes. Then let's do it now. I'm grateful.
03:21:32 If we could move to your personal recollection of the officers, uh we've
03:21:47 recollection of the officers, uh we've heard a degree about um Mr. Francis. So I will look at that shortly and then we'll move on to uh Carlos Saraki. You said
03:21:49 You said that you have a recollection that Mr. Francis would push for more aggressive confrontation of the BNP. Was that an understanding that you had at the time he was deployed or was that
03:22:01 at the time he was deployed or was that something that you learned later? at the time he was deployed. What I remember is because he joined us from another organization uh from real and uh um if
03:22:14 organization uh from real and uh um if you're in a socialist group, you you're pleased when you convince somebody in a different socialist organization that they'd like to join you. So we did talk about him a little bit, but we I do
03:22:28 about him a little bit, but we I do remember people saying, "Yeah, but his approach on the far right, he's a bit confrontational. That's not our approach. I don't think he understands what we mean by mass campaigning, but I cannot remember if I ever had that conversation with him myself or if it's
03:22:39 conversation with him myself or if it's only that other people said that to me. Do you do you recall the names of those people that would have said those who would have said that to you? I can. Yes. Can you write those down, please? Yes.
03:23:53 Thank you very much. Uh those are names that redact for privacy but thank you
03:24:09 given what you say about being told that he was pressuring for more um more forceful confrontations with the right wing. Do is that consist do you think that's
03:24:22 Do is that consist do you think that's consistent with your own recollection of him? because in your statement at paragraph 40.2 you say he generally kept a low profile and went along with the prevailing views in meetings.
03:24:35 in meetings. I think that is generally true. Um I do think over the time he was a member of ours
03:24:36 ours other people it's not my direct experience would say oh he's a bit macho in the sense of wanting to show he was
03:24:49 in the sense of wanting to show he was willing to confront the BMP. So, I can't help wonder was there an element of him being like an agent provocator, but that's going too far because this is, you know, I it's secondhand and secondary, but I do think he kind of projected a bit of a macho image.
03:25:08 projected a bit of a macho image. Thank you. I'm going to move now to your recollection of HM104 Carlos Iraqi or Carlo Ner as he was known during his deployment. You say in your witness statement that you barely knew Carnis Iraqi and that he was one of a host of activists
03:25:17 activists and that with one exception you have very limited memories of the role he played in your organization and no memory of any personal discussions with him.
03:25:26 him. Sure. Yes. That's what you said in the statement. Does that remain the state of your recollection today? Yes.
03:25:40 Yes. When you say you barely knew him, can you contextualize that a little? Uh, is he somebody whose face you would have known?
03:25:42 known? Yes. No, I would have known his face. He he
03:25:42 he and his name and his name. Um, he was a member in the London. Uh, we're not so big that you don't know most people's faces, but I
03:25:54 don't know most people's faces, but I did not ever have personal conversations with him with the exception of Genoa, which uh we're going to go on to. I know I will come on to that in just a second. Um, now Jenna is after the CWI summer school in Lurvin in 2001 that happened.
03:26:08 school in Lurvin in 2001 that happened. Do you remember him present during that summer school? I don't remember him being present, but he obviously was and we needed translators at those events. So, I suspect he was there because he could
03:26:20 suspect he was there because he could speak Italian, but also we went straight on from there to Genua. And I do remember him in Genua. Yeah. And excluding the trip to Genua, can you can you estimate how much time you would have spent together? Perhaps on say a monthly basis or a weekly basis, whatever is easiest. uh I
03:26:36 weekly basis, whatever is easiest. uh I mean one-on-one none in the same meeting once every couple of months probably. So can you explain what made his presence in Genoa stand out to you? Well, Genoa was an anti- capitalist demonstration and there was extreme
03:26:50 demonstration and there was extreme police violence at it and I ended up with we we had kind of gone as a uh a socialist party contingent and we were there to try and meet other Italian
03:27:02 there to try and meet other Italian socialists. So, we weren't all together on the demo. We'd split up into smaller groups and I ended up with Carlo. That was not my by my design. It may have been by his. And the reason I remember
03:27:16 been by his. And the reason I remember him is because the police violence was so horrific and blatant. I mean, literally seeing police officers change out of their anarchist disguises into their riot gear in front of you. It was so blatant. And he helped. He did help.
03:27:29 so blatant. And he helped. He did help. He got us out of trouble. I remember we climbed down into the harbor to get away from the police and he kind of helped lift me down because it was big drops and so on. So, you know, I have nothing else to be grateful to Carlo for. on
03:27:41 else to be grateful to Carlo for. on that occasion he did play a useful role. And so on that trip to Genua, how much time did you spend together? Was that was that something that you spent a lot of time?
03:27:52 of time? It wasn't a lot of time because most of the time we were part of a bigger group. We went over on a coach together um and then we went back on a coach and it was a whole coach load. But on the
03:28:03 a whole coach load. But on the demonstration itself, which was one of those events that seemed like forever but was probably five hours or something, it was me, Carlo, and two other people together. Um could I please show um MPS-0738103
03:28:19 sir in your bundle that's in uh the missel's bundle that is B50.
03:28:40 And if we could turn please to page three of that report,
03:28:44 seventh paragraph down,
03:28:56 starting socialist party. Thank you. And says this, socialist party Hannah cell. She had a thing for me, but I never went near it. These people flirt. They have partners. The morals of the wearies are not our morals. I went over
03:29:10 wearies are not our morals. I went over the side, but I beat myself up about it every day. They wouldn't They wouldn't give a about lying. How do you feel about that statement? I mean, it's disgusting, isn't it? Um, I said to you before we weren't concerned about police infiltration, and that's
03:29:23 about police infiltration, and that's true, but you do when you read something like this. Luckily for me, I did not in any way have a thing for him given what happened to other women who ended up in relationships with undercover officers.
03:29:38 relationships with undercover officers. I was very lucky. But the comment on our moles given what he was doing. Um and actually
03:29:42 actually people were very nice to him. Not me. I was never close to him. But when his mother was ill, members of the militant were offering as his friends to help pay for her treatment. Yet he talks about me as it. I mean, what does that say about his model? So yes, it's upsetting.
03:30:00 his model? So yes, it's upsetting. And is that in your statement you you refer to that as dehumanizing? Is it? I think that's fair. Yes. Uh, there's an assertion here that you were attracted to Mr. Saraki, were you? No. Not that it's this inquiry anybody's business, but no.
03:30:16 business, but no. Do you accept his comments about it? Uh, sorry. Hang on. Yeah, that's that's covered. Thank you. I'd like to look very briefly and sir,
03:30:30 I'd like to look very briefly and sir, finally um about some personal reporting on you, Miss Cell. If we could look please at MPS-0018504
03:30:39 sir in the Hannah cell bundle that is tab B39.
03:30:45 This is the report dated the 6th of May 2003 paragraph 1. Hannah cell is apparently in love. Then details about the person you're said to be in a relationship with and your domestic arrangement.
03:30:56 arrangement. I don't think it's I don't think we need to but if you wish there's a cipher list that will assist who is under the privacy reduction. I know there is yes
03:31:08 I know there is yes the second paragraph includes comment upon the relationship indicating privacy would be seen as a good match for S. I'd like to go to another I'm going to go to two more reports and then I'll ask you to comment on them as as a set.
03:31:20 you to comment on them as as a set. Another report um which we don't need to bring up but which I I know you're aware of is MPS02787
03:31:31 and that includes further information of where you live and the relationship with the person under that privacy redaction. And then finally, which we will bring up, MBS031879,
03:31:53 which is another draft report dated the 13th, which I believe is dated 13th of February, 2004, referring to your relationship and domestic circumstances. And in the third paragraph at the comment section, reports on your then partner's acquitt for public order
03:32:08 partner's acquitt for public order offenses and discusses a putitive claim for unlawful arrest. First of all, in relation to these documents, is the information recorded in these documents accurate
03:32:19 in these documents accurate in the sense of my addresses and who I was in relationship with? Yes. And in relation to the reporting on a potential claim? No, that's that that's not accurate. There was a court case which was related
03:32:36 There was a court case which was related to day X, the day the Iraq war broke out and protests that took place on that day, but there was no intention. The idea that we spend our time thinking, "Oh, good, someone got arrested. Now we can make a claim." I mean, it's nonsense and no claim was ever made. It's just made up.
03:32:49 ever made. It's just made up. How do you feel about special branch holding reports concerning your personal circumstances, address, and relationship? Look, obviously, I mean, first of all, what a tremendous waste of public funds, but who I was in a relationship with with, what address I was living at, why should anybody care? And it's an
03:33:02 should anybody care? And it's an enormous intrusion uh into my privacy. And I I don't know if I can say this is kind of unofficial language, but
03:33:13 kind of unofficial language, but frankly, both of them report on me, but Carlo in particular reports a lot of personal information, and it's a bit creepy.
03:33:22 Um I think that goes some way to answer my my last question on this topic which is about your reaction to that in addition to um recording personal matters the
03:33:34 to um recording personal matters the reports include comment and conjecture on that information. So for example where the report says that the person's name under privacy reduction would be seen as a good match for self. What do you what's your reaction to that?
03:33:46 you what's your reaction to that? Well, I think it's outrageous that he's commenting on it. Yeah, it's unnecessary personal information. Um, I'm sure nobody was thinking about who was a good
03:33:57 nobody was thinking about who was a good match for me. It's a strange view of how we operate. Thank you very much. Now, my final question is whether there's anything else that you would like this inquiry to understand about your experience of
03:34:08 understand about your experience of undercover policing and the impact it's had on you. I mean, I suppose the the final thing I would just like to emphasize, although I think I've said it already, is it seems pretty clear to me when you look at both of the reports of spying on us that
03:34:23 of the reports of spying on us that we've had, that this was not just about y that it was a deliberate attempt to get close to the militant, the leaders of militant, trade union activists, democratically elected trade union
03:34:38 democratically elected trade union activists who happen to be supporters of militant. And I think that related to our role that we had played in big movements in the pole tax in Liverpool in defeating the Thatcher government and a desire for political reasons to infiltrate us and that was really
03:34:50 infiltrate us and that was really primary here rather than the public orders questions. Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I have. Yes. Um it is in fact quite important that we finish um
03:35:03 that we finish um now uh rather than in the afternoon because the hearing room has to be reset up for the next witness who has particular arrangements.
03:35:19 Um I I'm understand that there are rule 10 questions. Yes.
03:35:23 Yes. Uh which is full to be considered. I I'm yet to have sight of them. Um, so then to can you take whatever time you need to absorb them and we can then resume. Is there going to be any re-examination
03:35:36 re-examination subject to the the follow-up questions? No.
03:35:40 No. Right. Thank you. I'm sorry to delay your lunch. Would you mind? Sure.
03:35:42 Sure. Bearing with me, please, because the next witness has to have special arrangements made. If I put you off until the afternoon, then it'll interrupt things even further. Thank you.
03:42:30 Please report there were no uh further questions from me or from any other party.
03:42:32 party. No reamination. Oh, that was easy. It was indeed. [laughter] May May I thank you as I do all
03:42:43 May May I thank you as I do all witnesses who've come voluntarily as I know you have to help me to find out what happened all those years ago.
03:42:54 what happened all those years ago. Um I can't resist however saying um about your comment about judges being elected that the only time that I'm aware this was tried in the Roman Republic was not a great success. I [laughter] think they do it in America. Although there are other problems there anyway. Thank you. So we'll adjourn until 20