Alex Owolade, a prominent anti-racism and anti-fascist activist, testifies about his experience being infiltrated by undercover officers David Hagen and Peter Francis while leading the Movement for Justice and Revolutionary Internationalist League. He provides powerful testimony about fighting fascist terror, police brutality, and institutional racism in 1990s Britain.
00:26:51 Yes, Mr. Olad, you have provided a signed for apologies in
00:26:59 just like to stand and repeat the words. I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence that the evidence I shall give
00:27:10 I shall give that I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth
00:27:24 miss you've provided a signed 47page witness statement to the inquiry dated the 7th of July 2025 that is UCPI5038674
00:27:36 at tab A1 of the bundle. If I can just take you first to paragraph 13. Oh, excuse me. Are you starting the cross examination? I'm going to allow you to make your um speech. I'm just going to get you to confirm your statements.
00:27:50 Yep.
00:27:57 Uh looking at paragraph um 13 under lesbian and gay campaign against racism and fascism. Is there anything you would like to correct in that paragraph? Yeah, in fact the um MFJ was set up after the Roland Adams um uh
00:28:09 after the Roland Adams um uh demonstration and campaign. In fact, u my involvement in support of the Roland Adams campaign. Can I just pause you there? This is about the lesbian and gay campaign
00:28:20 about the lesbian and gay campaign against racism and fascism. And it says this was set up by MFJ and led I led this around the 1990s. Is there anything you'd like to correct about that?
00:28:35 you'd like to correct about that? Yeah. Um, so um MFJ was set up after after this group. This group was based from people that were um that were active in the lesbian and
00:28:47 um that were active in the lesbian and gay support the miners group which I was very active with. So, and then when the fascist started to intervene in the community, we all came together and also the real
00:28:55 the real the correction is it wasn't set up by uh movement for justice. That's right.
00:29:05 Is that is that better? Thank you. Sorry, we do have trouble with technology here, I'm afraid, almost daily. Okay. Um, and the next paragraph 205
00:29:19 uh page
00:29:28 33. Thank you.
00:29:39 And this paragraph, uh, we were involved with it, uh, due to being involved in a similar case, that of Roland Adams, a 15-year-old boy who'd been stabbed in a racist attack two years prior to Steven Lawrence's murder. Was there anything you would like to correct in this statement paragraph?
00:29:51 statement paragraph? Yeah. I mean, obviously the rolling I was repeating that question before, the rolling admin's case was before MFJ was set up. what our involvement in the Roland Adins campaign and support was
00:30:08 Roland Adins campaign and support was two things with the real as a real but also as um the black lesbian and gay group which I was um instrumental setting up and was leading at that time. So it was those two groups that I was involved in. Thank you. That was um related to the role in Adams, not the MFJ. That's correct.
00:30:26 That's correct. Thank you. Uh you've also provided a second witness statement to the inquiry dated the 17th of November 2025. That's UCPI5039429.
00:30:42 Yeah. Can you confirm that the contents of both these witness statements are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes, they're correct. This puts the whole of both those witness statements into evidence. And I understand you would like to say a few words before I start asking questions. And please take [clears throat] the opportunity now.
00:31:00 opportunity now. Great. Well, firstly, I this is about the fight against the fascist racist terror that the black and Asian community were being subjected to that [clears throat] time and also the fight against institutional racism about the
00:31:12 against institutional racism about the death racist deaths that took place and also the uh deaths in police custody. So, first and this is what this is all about. So, first I'd like to ask for one minute silence for those people that
00:31:24 minute silence for those people that were murdered by fascist racist gangs or died in police custody. Can we all stand, please?
00:32:33 Thank you.
00:32:43 Yeah. I the reason why I I was asked to I wanted to make a brief opening statement because I think um from what I've observed so far in the inquiry and the way things go it's all
00:32:54 inquiry and the way things go it's all based um things have turned up the wrong way round. So we are being asked to to answer allegations from the police reports and their interpretations of our activity
00:33:05 their interpretations of our activity and and and the question of whether we were subversive or we've caused violence and the context of what we were up
00:33:21 and the context of what we were up against and what we were trying to to to to fight against uh is the the violence from the fascists who were enabled by the police as they are today
00:33:35 are today allowed to organize fascist racist gangs in our community and a fight against uh police brutality, the violence that we suffered as a community [clears throat] from the police. And I want to really put that into context. That is the context of what we uh what what what
00:33:49 context of what we uh what what what was in uh the reason why the police were in infiltrating and deciding to sabotage our campaign to expose that injustice.
00:34:02 our campaign to expose that injustice. In fact, it's been shocking for me cuz I read through the statistics of deaths in police custody from the 80s and 90s onwards. and also the level of racist
00:34:19 onwards. and also the level of racist attacks and there were massive numbers. I was taken aback about what we as a black and a black and Asian community was facing at that time. The fascist [clears throat] every the
00:34:34 The fascist [clears throat] every the fascists were organizing a campaign to organize racists in areas in our
00:34:46 organize racists in areas in our community in order to attack us and to murder us. Every time the fascists organized public rallies or demonstrations, racist attacks followed in every every incident. So the fact that the racist the fascists
00:35:05 So the fact that the racist the fascists were allowed to publicly demonstrate was a a way of organizing racist terror against our community. In every single situation, the police protected their right to organize their terror campaign.
00:35:24 terror campaign. If the police did not protect them, they would not have the nerve cuz they are cowards to even do that. So the police
00:35:35 cowards to even do that. So the police enabled the the ra the fascists and the racists to attack us and to led to murders. So that's number one. Our response the politicians as today were were normalizing fascism were
00:35:58 were were normalizing fascism were normalizing racism. They were pandering trying to compete like this government is doing with the racist and fascists and we were faced. So none of the politicians in reality uh were were uh were coming to our aid. We had no
00:36:12 were coming to our aid. We had no choice. We had no choice but to organize for our defense and it was a life and death matter. As I said the response from the from
00:36:24 As I said the response from the from from the politicians from from the state uh different actors was to protect the fascist right to to organize racist terror campaigns and to contain us. If
00:36:42 terror campaigns and to contain us. If you see all the videos of fascists being um having demonstrations, you see they are free in those events and we are contained and kettled. In fact, when we talk about the Welling demonstration, it was a police riot on us.
00:36:56 us. That was the violence that we were suffering. I would say looking back and I I am grateful to Francis in one sense don't forgive him [clears throat] for his
00:37:07 forgive him [clears throat] for his disclosure for his whistleblowing cuz when I read through his disclosures of course there was racist stuff and all
00:37:20 course there was racist stuff and all that and invasion and you just look at that but generally it reminded me how powerful our movement was and we were young people then how the black and Asian youth were able to inspire
00:37:37 were able to inspire hundreds of thousands of our community and obviously white youth as well to come to our aid to to to defeat the fascist and to challenge police racism and we were successful and that's one lesson to the current
00:37:50 and that's one lesson to the current situation we face and the youngsters I my biggest proudest moment is we can tell that story of how despite all the
00:38:03 tell that story of how despite all the things that are against us. We were able to succeed in our movement to stand our ground to defeat the fascists and to expose police brutality. And that's a message I want to give to the young
00:38:14 message I want to give to the young people today to help them so that we can fight and we can win. Uh there's two other comments I want to make. Uh it's in relation because I know I'm going to be asked to comment on the various reports that uh Francis and Hagen have
00:38:30 reports that uh Francis and Hagen have said about myself, my organization, my motives, my politics etc. And I know I got a sense that one of the defense of the police will be is that people like you know Francis that half
00:38:43 people like you know Francis that half the things they have said aren't true. And I suppose they do that for Hagen to
00:38:57 And I suppose they do that for Hagen to to discredit his their credibility about what they are saying. Of course, their racist tropes, the way they said that left-wing pe groups are trying to use racism. Obviously, that's a completely racist view. Black people, we are as
00:39:15 racist view. Black people, we are as black people, we have our own agency. it wasn't, you know, we didn't need to be used to call for support and fight against racism. The stuff about referring to um to black people in the community as the as the mob, as the
00:39:27 community as the as the mob, as the rabble, obviously they are racist um racist tropes and other other inaccuracies. But in one sense they are they are telling the truth [clears throat] because they reflect the the the the view of the state and the
00:39:40 the the the view of the state and the police that black people are people that have no agency and the only reason we we do anything is because we have to be led by someone else that we are a rebel. So
00:39:55 by someone else that we are a rebel. So they were telling the truth in their own terms. They were reflecting the view of the establishment as now that the main concern around questions of racism and fascism is to contain the black community and to and
00:40:13 contain the black community and to and to deny our agency. The other thing is I want to talk about is they make certain allegations about um subversion and undermining parliamentary democracy.
00:40:26 undermining parliamentary democracy. It's kind of a bit of a red herring. The people that were really guilty of uh of subversion and demi and undermining uh our democracy were they were this squad who was interfering with our democratic right to to protest to organize to
00:40:39 right to to protest to organize to defend ourselves against attacks whether it's from the fascists or the police. So in a sense the allegations of subversion are in relation to them.
00:40:59 Lastly I wanted to say is obviously um comments about who I am, assertions
00:41:10 um comments about who I am, assertions about who I am. I just want to state a a short statement I want to say about who I am. My basic values were formed from the experience of growing up in an interracial working-class family in London and Leicester. Growing up in a family constantly concerned about
00:41:21 family constantly concerned about questions of equality meant that I was raised a socialist. Socialism meant for me as for other
00:41:32 Socialism meant for me as for other socialists concerned about the division between the rich and poor, support for the labor movement, fighting racism, sexism, and homophobia. I had also learned that the equality was not going to be made real in this
00:41:43 not going to be made real in this society without a fight. I had to learn that the fight for equality was both necessary and possible. I share with a great majority of black and Asian people the view as real and important as the positive changes have
00:42:00 important as the positive changes have been too much of the change is largely cosmetic and superficial leaving the roots of racism and discrimination largely intact and many of the most pervasive racist habits of our institutions largely unchanged. the
00:42:15 institutions largely unchanged. the change that has been far more in words than in action, more in form than in substance. Thank you very much.
00:42:22 Thank you, Mr. Olard. Many of my questions will be about um UCO HN81 undercover name David Hagen,
00:42:35 UCO HN81 undercover name David Hagen, code name Windmill Tilter, and I will refer to him in his undercover name David Hagen. I will also ask you questions about UCO HN43 undercover name Pete Black Pete Johnson code name Howling Gale and I will refer to him by his real name Peter Francis
00:42:48 to him by his real name Peter Francis to assist you with questioning uh today. The topics I will be covering will include your activism and involvement in various groups. The aim and activities of these groups and in particular the SDS suggestion that these groups were
00:43:00 SDS suggestion that these groups were infiltrated due to the risk of public
00:43:09 infiltrated due to the risk of public disorder and/or violence. Your knowledge and interaction with Peter Francis and David Hagen. Movement for justice's involvement in the Steven Lawrence campaign and attendance at the Steven Lawrence inquiry. yours and movement for
00:43:23 Lawrence inquiry. yours and movement for justice's involvement with Dwayne Dwayne Brooks, reporting on personal matters about you and the impact the UCIO's conduct has had on you. Let me begin with your involvement in activism in particular during 1993 to 2008.
00:43:35 2008. And as I understand it, you've been involved in activism for a long time getting involved in political campaigns before you left school. Yes. and for
00:43:47 before you left school. Yes. and for example supporting the minor strikes in the 1980s. Is that right? Yes.
00:43:56 Yes. And then looking um on to the 1990s and early 2000s, is it right that you were involved in anti-fascism? Yes.
00:43:57 Yes. Anti-racism. Can I just correct? I first got involved as a political activist in my secondary school when I was 14 and we were
00:44:12 school when I was 14 and we were fighting the NF because I was living in Leicester. So my first involvement was organizing with other students to protect us from the fascists. Thank you. Uh also involved in uh campaigns relating to anti-racism. Yeah.
00:44:23 Yeah. Supporting justice campaigns. Y rights of immigrants. Yes.
00:44:27 Yes. Rights of the LGBTQ community. That's correct.
00:44:35 That's correct. And trade unionism and workers rights. That's correct. At paragraph nine of your witness statement, you explain that the 1990s and early 2000s were one of the most important periods in UK history
00:44:48 the most important periods in UK history of a mass movement fighting successfully to expose the challenge and challenge institutional racism. Is that right? That's correct. And during this period, you were involved in various organizations including the revolutionary internationalist league. That's correct. King Kingsway Anti-Fascist Group.
00:45:01 King Kingsway Anti-Fascist Group. That's correct. Movement for Justice. That's correct. And the lesbian and gay campaign against racism and fascism. That's correct. And is it right you set this up to mobilize the lesbian and gay community against racism and fascism?
00:45:16 against racism and fascism? Yeah. The the fascist the BMP were started to have an intervention in the LGBT community based in a in a gay pub in um by
00:45:24 in um by in East London. So that's what we uh that's when we formed to get them out which we successful.
00:45:35 which we successful. And um what activities did you uh participate in in part of uh that group? Okay. So we formed the group and we had regular meetings. We issued flyers and then we had demonstrations outside the
00:45:52 then we had demonstrations outside the pub and demanding that the uh the the uh [snorts]
00:45:53 [snorts] uh that the um pub pub owners exclude these people and also tried to um in a sense we kind of said the pub will either have to close down. So we was picketing outside and then uh picketing
00:46:09 picketing outside and then uh picketing outside that particular pub and we were mobilizing the community against it. And this is paragraph 14 of your statement where you attended a uh men only gay pub old street. That's right.
00:46:21 only gay pub old street. That's right. That was frequented by gay fascists for who you were trying to uh explain to drive them out. To drive them out. Thank you. You were also a member of the trade union unison which you joined in 1990 when you
00:46:34 which you joined in 1990 when you started working for Lambeath Council. Is that right? Actually it was new and then they amalgamated but it's became
00:46:40 became unison. Yeah, that's correct. Uh looking at the revolutionary internationalist league. When was that founded?
00:46:48 founded? 1984.
00:46:51 1984. And is it right that you were one of the founding members? That's correct. And over time, other members uh included Lewis Karen Doyle and Tony Guard. Is that right? That's correct.
00:47:06 That's correct. On [snorts] average, how many members did real have during the 1990s and early 2000s?
00:47:13 2000s? It varied, but up to 30 members and we had supporters as well. And was real the British section of the Troskyist international liaison committee or international troskist committee?
00:47:25 committee? International tropics. Yeah, that's correct.
00:47:29 correct. And is it right that you would describe yourself as a Troskyist? Absolutely. Could you briefly tell us what the aims of the real were?
00:47:40 I a we through being Marxists and Troskus and looking at history in an objective way that um that we knew that the capitalist society is can't be
00:47:51 the capitalist society is can't be reformed in order to give the real lasting equality that the population requires. It needs to change. We need to have a completely different society not based on on the elite owning all the the
00:48:07 based on on the elite owning all the the property and for and so there need to be a revolution but revolutions are not spurred in by will and so our tactics were that
00:48:19 were that that it required a movement for that to happen and and that that defending democratic rights under the current system
00:48:33 rights under the current system is is absolutely essential and that was our focus.
00:48:43 And what types of activities were real involved in in order to pursue that aim? We we were um helping to mobilize if there was a of demonstrations and fights to protect um immigrants, migrants
00:48:56 to protect um immigrants, migrants around the LGBT to fight homophobia and organizing uh a left-wing part of that movement. Um we were around the miners and
00:49:07 Um we were around the miners and industrial struggles. We were obviously support as other activists were. Um we were around um what was a wholesome all the things that were happening all the struggles that are either fighting
00:49:23 struggles that are either fighting against repression or fighting to defend rights that are under attack. Can I bring up on screen UCI5034504
00:49:39 tab B3 of Olad's bundle please? page two.
00:49:40 two. [snorts]
00:49:50 Um, in fact, yes, see if we can start with this page. I'm afraid it's very difficult to see. Um, but I will do my
00:50:02 difficult to see. Um, but I will do my best to explain what is on there. This is an information performer of Peter Francis about you dated the 3rd of December 1993.
00:50:09 Firstly, do you recall Peter Francis? Um,
00:50:14 Um, I I saw I saw him at the last session I think last week at the back and he looked vaguely familiar. Uh, but I can't place him exactly to be honest. But
00:50:28 place him exactly to be honest. But you will see in this document um next to orgs it says the revolutionary internationalist league and Kingsway Anti-fascist group. And then sorry, can you just expand this on here the screen? Absolutely.
00:50:39 Absolutely. Yeah, go ahead. Is that easier? Yeah, that's fine. Thank you. And then underneath that you can see uh associates Lois Austin, Privacy, Tony Guard, and Lewis. Yeah.
00:50:56 Yeah. Um we know that you Lewis and Tony Guard were in real together. Can you describe who they were to you at that time in late 1993? Uh um Tony Guard and Lewis. Oh yeah, they were comrades and friends and close associates.
00:51:07 and close associates. And is it correct that you recruited Lewis into the RL? Yes. Not me personally. Not you personally, but you were part of the recruitment, were you? Yes.
00:51:21 Yes. Uh, and what was Lewis's role in Rale? the same as myself, which was
00:51:30 which was uh um carrying out the work of our organization and our interventions and and policies and what and discussions about what we could do to make sure the movements that were intervening won and
00:51:41 movements that were intervening won and also Marx's study because we we were you know we did study about history and stuff like that. So he was very active in that. Yeah. And would you say the same for Tony Guard?
00:51:56 Guard? Yes. Uh if we look at um page two paragraph one if we could zoom into that please
00:52:10 says Alexander Olard previously reported as Alexander Snoo is the chairman of the real and a totally committed Troskyist. He is a very active and popular leader of the real and involves himself in all its activities. As I understand that you were not the chairman. No, [clears throat] I don't think I was. I may have chaired meetings, but
00:52:22 may have chaired meetings, but And was there a chairman of real? I think there wasn't. I can't recall who was. I mean, I was part of the central leadership of the real.
00:52:32 the real. So, you agree that you were an active and popular leader? Yes. Or hopefully. Yes. Um, in his evidence last week, Lewis described you as maybe more the leader of the action wing of the group. Do you agree with that? Um
00:52:47 um
00:52:54 uh okay. Um yes and no. Okay. [laughter] Do you want to elaborate? Uh because yeah I was active in the public leader but also I was very essential in the formation of the real and international discussions that you
00:53:09 and international discussions that you might not have been aware of but what he said is true as well. [snorts]
00:53:11 [snorts] The report goes on to describe you in paragraph two as overtly gay and affeminate. Yes. And he never shrinks from direct confrontation with the fascists. I'll come back to that in a moment. If we can move on to page three, the first paragraph.
00:53:38 Can you just enlarge that bit? That's being done. Thank you. Um the first paragraph report talks about your arrest on the 6th of November 1994. Again I will come back to that in a moment. If we first look at the last paragraph it states despite the above
00:53:50 paragraph it states despite the above Aard is in fact an extremely intelligent and competent individual and most security conscious. He is however totally dominated by Lewis who perhaps would be a more natural choice for the
00:54:02 would be a more natural choice for the post of chairman of RIL but [snorts] for the fact that the latter believes a gay IC3 in that position is potentially good for recruitment. The quiry is interested in the accuracy
00:54:18 The quiry is interested in the accuracy and tone of SDS reporting. Do you agree with the description of yourself as extremely intelligent, competent, individual individual and most security conscious?
00:54:29 conscious? Uh yes, I think I I I think most um most people are intelligent, especially workingass and black people. [snorts] Um, looking at the security conscious point, Lewis suggested in his evidence last week that you were brave
00:54:40 evidence last week that you were brave and very vocal in your opposition, but perhaps more concerned because you felt more of a target than Lewis personally about being physically attacked and were therefore very careful on any
00:54:53 therefore very careful on any demonstration. Would you agree with that?
00:54:54 that? Yes.
00:54:56 Yes. Why would you say in particular, can you elaborate why you were so security conscious? Uh I I think uh in those type of mobilizations where we're dealing
00:55:09 of mobilizations where we're dealing with an extremely violent situation from the fascists and we're mobilizing the community and politically black and Asian people, we have to make sure that we are we are secure and we're protected that if the fascist attack us able to
00:55:22 that if the fascist attack us able to defend ourselves. So that's true. I it's obviously when you're on these demonstrations if you're black or Asian you stick out and the fascists are targeting and it still happens today
00:55:33 targeting and it still happens today when I'm on anti-fascist stuff today. I'm but yes I'm very I it's not just simply me but the organizations that I belong to when we're our priority we're very conscious about maintaining the
00:55:47 very conscious about maintaining the security of of the people we mobilize. So that's not just me it's everyone. And what do you say about the suggestion that you were totally dominated by Lewis?
00:55:57 Lewis? Well, he doesn't know that. And I refer to what I said before. These are the kind of racist tropes that he reflects he's
00:56:05 he's reflecting here which is from from the the the organization that he's working on behalf. So obviously that's not true. And in terms of the accuracy of um him
00:56:16 And in terms of the accuracy of um him being a more natural choices leader of real did you or any others consider that to be
00:56:23 to be the leader of the real we had a collective leadership.
00:56:34 Was race or sexuality a conscious consideration when deciding what roles of responsibility were given to those involved with real? And did sexuality or race play any part in who could join RI? No.
00:56:44 No. Looking back at page one, paragraph two, I don't think we need to uh show it, but the sentence that says, "Although overtly gay and affeminate, he never
00:56:57 overtly gay and affeminate, he never shrinks from direct confrontation with the fascists." The sentence gives the impression that you are comfortable being in a situation where a physical fight is taking place. What do you say about that in terms of your personal view on the use of violence?
00:57:14 Okay. Um firstly, there's an implication that if you're a lesbian and gay that you're somehow not courageous. Well, we
00:57:25 you're somehow not courageous. Well, we had the Stonewall riots that started the in 1968 showed you and particularly the affeminate and the queens and the drag queens. We're a tough people. We have to deal with with homophobia and attacks every day. So that idea that because I'm gay that somehow it's unusual to be
00:57:40 gay that somehow it's unusual to be courageous. I think yes. Uh the point about confronting the fascist yes um I I the fascists have confront all my
00:57:53 um I I the fascists have confront all my life is experience attacks from fascists and and I'm very much no I'm not going to allow them to scare me and I'm going to if they confront me I'm going to stand up against them and as a leader that's very important because if you stand up against them that's when
00:58:05 you stand up against them that's when you win because they are a cowardice. Yes. So I am very wherever the fascists are organizing I want to be there and I want to to stop it.
00:58:16 want to to stop it. And was real's position on the use of violence the same as yours? Position of the use of violence. Yes. You've described you don't have a position on the use of violence.
00:58:26 violence. Uh in terms of what you've described is that standing up to fascists as I understood your answer to be defensive. Is that right?
00:58:39 Is that right? Yeah. We have a position that we we have a right to organize defense against violence attacks. Yes. [clears throat] Could we please uh have up Peter Francis's um statement UCP50
00:58:49 UCP50 3612
00:58:55 3612 page 81 paragraph 489 please.
00:59:11 Peter Francis says, "I was tasked with reporting on subversives and I identified Alexard as ticking all the boxes for subversion. He was a card carrying member of the Revolutionary International League and a unison
00:59:22 International League and a unison member. There was a concern about him steering unison in the wrong direction, i.e. towards the real agenda." While I was not specifically directed towards
00:59:33 was not specifically directed towards Alex in any tasking, it was part of my overall role to report on subversives.
00:59:44 overall role to report on subversives. Again, I note that no one came back to me and said that my reporting on Alex was not of interest or importance or impermissible. And this is Francis.
00:59:57 And this is Francis. This is Peter Francis. Okay. And looking at the Harris definition of subversion, which is activities which threaten the safety or well-being of the state and which are intended to undermine or overthrow parliamentary, democracy by political, industrial, or violent means, would you consider yourself to be subversive following that definition?
01:00:17 subversive following that definition? It's a bit of a trick question, isn't it? So, I'll answer it in my own way. Um I think
01:00:24 I think f I think the state is and the way it behaves to to workers to poor people workingclass people and black and that is subversive that
01:00:40 black and that is subversive that undermines our democratic right. I think the the uh the um parliamentary system we have is not democratic and I think most people can agree to that. Um you only have elections every 5 years. The parties you have to have money to set up the parties that I don't see any of the
01:00:58 the parties that I don't see any of the parties in parliament that represent me and people in my community in any real way. Uh I think being a member of the union unison as being subversive is a bit ex extreme. So I I really to be
01:01:16 bit ex extreme. So I I really to be honest I think the question is on them. Yes. I want fundamental change in our society. I want the equality to be permanent and not have to always be refighting it again like we've done so far. We had that struggle against
01:01:30 far. We had that struggle against racism, against the fascists, against anti-immigrant um scapegoating in the 80s and '9s, and we succeeded to some extent, but we're repeating the struggle now. So, I do think the system fundamentally
01:01:46 think the system fundamentally is is not fit for purpose, to be honest, and there needs to be a fundamental change. I think there's I I don't I don't think parliamentary democracy is is fully democratic. I think there's a much more democratic way to proceed. So
01:02:03 much more democratic way to proceed. So that's my general view about the system we live under. But it's very strange because it's a kind of thing to use because every ch fundamental change in human history you could call it a sub
01:02:16 human history you could call it a sub subversive. the current system we live in came out out of the the fight for parliamentarism came out of the the English civil war which 250,000 people died and I'm sure they were called
01:02:31 died and I'm sure they were called subversives by the um by the monarchs. So it's a kind of um you know if you don't if you want real change and permanent equality then of course the current system is going to refer to that. So that's my answer to that really if that's enough. Thank you. And in
01:02:44 if that's enough. Thank you. And in terms of the groups you were involved in, so real Kingsway Anti-Fascist Group and Movement for Justice, do they have a similar uh view to you?
01:02:55 view to you? No. No, they're not. They they're they're not they don't have a revolutionary program. Um uh in movement [clears throat] for justice specifically and I think I subjected um put out a pledge that describes what that is based on.
01:03:08 describes what that is based on. Fundamentally, anyone can be part of movement of justice if they agree. Our first thing is that we must always fight to speak the truth about racism
01:03:23 to speak the truth about racism and we have to organize an independent movement that's independent of of the system.
01:03:24 system. What about real? What do you mean in terms of um the subversion um point and whether they have a similar view to you in terms of subversion that you've just described? I think so. Yeah.
01:03:49 Um, in this paragraph, Peter Francis records a concern that you've identified about you steering unison in the wrong direction towards the real agenda. Firstly, did real members often join trade unions? It's a requirement at being a real member. If we're fighting for the
01:04:02 member. If we're fighting for the oppressed and the working class, then we must be in their organizations helping to build those organizations to protect their interests. So, it's a kind of a requirement.
01:04:13 requirement. For me personally, I I was brought up in a socially minded family and to be in when you go to work, it's like wearing a seat belt. You're in a car. It's automatic. But we
01:04:29 But we and if it was suggested to to you that you or other members of real join trade unions to advance real's revolutionist agenda i.e. a more extreme or far right leftwing stance. What would you say?
01:04:41 leftwing stance. What would you say? Well um tra we don't trade unions aren't revolutionary organizations. They're organizations that are organized to to fight on the issues that workers face. No. So we will fight like other left
01:04:55 No. So we will fight like other left activists to make sure that the union our union really does fight for the interests of our workers and not just be kind of um cozy with management. I was
01:05:11 kind of um cozy with management. I was very militant. I was seen as a militant leader meaning that I stood up for the members and I I fought management on behalf of the me members and particularly around the question of racism which is a big fight we have in the train. It's it's all misconceived. Unions aren't revolutionary organizations.
01:05:26 organizations. And do you think that real had the capability to undermine or overthrow democracy? Well, no, not not now.
01:05:38 Well, no, not not now. Um, moving to the Kingsway anti-fascist group at staying with Peter Francis's statement. Could we have a page 45, paragraph 268?
01:05:58 Uh [snorts] so Peter Francis says for example I was tasked to find out more about Lewis and his Kingsway anti-fascist group. Once there I identified Alex Olard privacy and Tony Guard as the core organizers and got to
01:06:11 Guard as the core organizers and got to know everything about them as part of my role to monitor and report on subversives. [clears throat] There was only one special branch file already in place about that group for Tony Guard. I pulled his file and
01:06:23 Tony Guard. I pulled his file and reviewed it. I deemed Lewis, Alex, and Privacy worthy uh worthy enough subverses to have their own files which were then created at my request.
01:06:34 were then created at my request. When did you become aware that a special branch file had been created about you? Uh when when when I was this this this statement was disclosed to me recently. And what was your reaction to knowing about that and being spied on?
01:06:51 about that and being spied on? Uh, two reactions to be honest. I kind of giggled and also I think it really is.
01:07:10 It's very clear that the state, anyone who fights for equality is now going to be subjected to surveillance. And obviously, when you have a file, then they're looking to try and find things or to create a situation where they can they can prevent you doing what you're doing. It's it's a a massive attack on
01:07:26 doing. It's it's a a massive attack on my rights of people's rights to actually organize
01:07:33 organize protests. So, yeah, it's an invasion and I think it's um I'd like to see what's on it.
01:07:34 on it. [clears throat] I like to see it. Yeah. Is it right that Lewis set up Kingsway Anti-Fascist group? Yes, he was part of He was a student there at the time.
01:07:46 there at the time. And you, Karen Doyle, and Tony Guard were founding members. Is that right? Well, um and Karen was at the college and Oh, was I meant to say that? That's fine.
01:07:59 That's fine. Um and um and also um Tony wasn't and I was working in Lambeath Council, but we were supported. So I go to the meetings when I could. But you weren't a student at Kingsley College. No. And am I right? It was founded in approximately 1993.
01:08:11 founded in approximately 1993. That's correct. Yeah. And in the 1990s through to the early 2000s, again, on average, how many members did KFG have? [clears throat]
01:08:24 [clears throat] I I think they may I'm I'm being very approximate. Oh, please. Yes. uh it's a different I I think
01:08:29 think core members 30 or 40 but also they they had the
01:08:40 30 or 40 but also they they had the support of the entire um student body you know so when we'd have like um demonstrations or even occupations around issues in in the college you know
01:08:52 around issues in in the college you know of the canteen there'll be hundreds so I think a lot of people in these groups would say and it's the truth for movement for justice there's a lot of people who they they identify they see themselves as a member but not an active member. So I say a core group of about 30 or so.
01:09:08 30 or so. And what were KFG's aims? H as I
01:09:13 I um I can't recall the details but just a summary [snorts] um well it's what in the name it was to organize students um to organize against against fascism
01:09:27 um to organize against against fascism and racism because at that time as we're saying there was one of our students there was violently attacked nearly murdered shalam and a lot of students were from east London a Bengali Muslim community that were under particular
01:09:38 community that were under particular attacks. So yeah, that was the purpose of that group. And is it right that KFG were involved in various racial justice campaigns? Yes.
01:09:48 Yes. Can I move in Peter Francis's statement to page 55, paragraphs 324 to 325. Uh you can see in paragraph 324, Peter Francis lists the groups that uh he
01:10:06 Francis lists the groups that uh he targeted and you can see the Kingsway Anti-Fascist Group, Revolutionary International League. Yeah.
01:10:10 Yeah. And then moving to paragraph 325. If we could zoom in on that list, please.
01:10:19 He says, "I was also tasked at various points during my deployment to report back on a number of single issue campaigns running alongside my target groups." Mhm. And um you can see the list there. I can read them out if you need me to. Um do
01:10:30 read them out if you need me to. Um do you recall KFG or MFJ being involved in these justice campaigns? Is it easy if I read them out to you, Mardi? Um I can say um do you want to read them out?
01:10:41 out? Sure. Roland Adams. Do you want just read all of them out? Sure. Roland Adams, Mukta Ahmed, Shara Lam, Cudis Ali, Gerdep Bangal, Brian
01:10:55 Lam, Cudis Ali, Gerdep Bangal, Brian Douglas, Wayne Douglas, Roit Dougle, Joy Gardner, Cynthia Jarrett, Shiji Leit, Steven Lawrence, Ibrahim, and then the groups of Direct Action Network,
01:11:14 groups of Direct Action Network, Disabilities Campaign Group, Broadwater Farm Defense Campaign, Winston Silk Defense Campaign, the M253 camp, campaign and Panther UK. Okay. And what's the question? Um, do you recall if KFG or MFJ were involved in these justice campaigns?
01:11:26 involved in these justice campaigns? We would have been supporting them. Do you think all of them? All of them. Except that UK Panther was a separate group. It wasn't a justice campaign. It was a group of
01:11:38 campaign. It was a group of And did you hold or attend meetings and demonstrations for these justice campaigns? Yes.
01:11:39 Yes. Um
01:11:47 Um you have mentioned that you have a vague recollection of Peter Francis. Yeah. Um do you recall if Peter Francis was present at any of those demonstrations or meetings relating to these campaigns? No, I don't recall that. He he may have been but I can't.
01:11:59 been but I can't. Moving to movement for justice
01:12:08 at paragraph 17 of your witness statement. That's UCPI5038674
01:12:13 tab A1 of Mr. Olad's bundle.
01:12:22 You've mentioned this briefly already.
01:12:33 MFJ was formed around 1995 and stemmed from the Kingsway College anti-fascist group. Shalam, a Bangladeshi student at Kingsway and member of the anti-fascist group was attacked, stabbed, and left for dead by a racist gang in popular
01:12:44 for dead by a racist gang in popular East London. That campaign around the attack on Sharaam led a group of us to discuss the need for a new wider anti-racist organization and this in
01:12:56 anti-racist organization and this in turn led to the setting up of MFJ. Is that right? That's correct. And again, were you one of the founding members of this organization? That's correct. Yeah. And again it was that alongside Lewis, Karen Doyle and Tony Guard among others. Please don't mention the name.
01:13:07 mention the name. Yeah.
01:13:11 Yeah. Who led this organization from its formation? Um
01:13:17 Um it was a number of us. It was a collective leadership. Um so a number of us. Um so the people
01:13:31 Um so a number of us. Um so the people you've named already and there were some people from the Kingsway group. Uh, and do you continue continue to be one of the leaders of MFJ to date? Yes. Yes.
01:13:40 Could we please bring up on screen MPS 40561
01:13:43 40561 tab B7 of MFJ bundle?
01:13:53 Just enhance it a bit. Just enlarge It's the first paragraph. Uh, this is a David Hegel intel report regarding an MFJ meeting on the 1st of October 1997.
01:14:04 October 1997. And it's the very last bit of that paragraph where it says Alex and your name spelled incorrectly uh was in the chair but clearly deferred to Lewis and Karen Brackett's white
01:14:16 to Lewis and Karen Brackett's white female. Do you recall this meeting? Not really. And did you defer to Lewis or Karen White female?
01:14:28 or Karen White female? It's it's like I referred to the whole theme of way this is approached. I always consulted we were a collective leadership. So I always consulted with my colleagues and we do that before meetings and during meetings. So refer
01:14:48 meetings and during meetings. So refer you know consult it wasn't meant to be def it's not deferred it's consult and that's a practice that we I continue thank you say at paragraph 23 of your statement that your campaigns at MFJ were entirely open. Is that right?
01:15:03 were entirely open. Is that right? That's correct. and at paragraph 26 of your statement that there was no formal membership for MFJ. As long as a person identifies with your pledge and is willing to act on it, they are welcome. Yes.
01:15:20 Yes. But you also say that pledge that you have exhibited and we'll come to in a moment was not introduced until 2005 2006.
01:15:21 2006. Yes.
01:15:24 Yes. So in the late 1990s early 2000 could anyone join MFJ? But based on the pledge, we formulated the pledge, but that was what we'd be saying.
01:15:35 that was what we'd be saying. Essentially, the two things was uh prepared to speak the truth about racism, to build an independent movement, and also MFJ wasn't just simply [clears throat] a campaign organization. It was an organization to train leaders of our movement because
01:15:50 train leaders of our movement because that being a leader of a movement, we require, you know, to to develop as leaders, gain our confidence and stuff like that. So, yes. So the same principles of the pledge applied then.
01:16:03 applied then. Um, and I understand you do remember David Hagen. Yes.
01:16:08 Yes. Do you recall when he first attended an MFJ?
01:16:14 MFJ? No, not specifically. I think David um Hagen says in um his witness statement, if we can bring that up, MPS-0748738,
01:16:25 page 28, paragraph 90.
01:16:35 [clears throat]
01:17:01 I'm sure we'll we'll get there. Um, do you need the referencing?
01:17:10 I can go with that. It is Oh, right. Thank you. Um, I believe that my infiltration of reporting on MFJ lasted from 1997 until my deployment ended in 2001. Does that sound about right?
01:17:17 right? Correct. Yeah. The inquiry should keep in mind that this was a front organization for the revolutionary internationalist league
01:17:28 revolutionary internationalist league which sought to leverage justice issues both as a recruiting tool and also to break down the relationship between the public and the MPS in order to create the conditions for a revolution. Uh is it whose statement is this?
01:17:41 Uh is it whose statement is this? This is um David to this to this inquiry. Um first, what do you say about David Hagen's suggestion that MFJ was a front for real?
01:17:57 for real? No, I mean it's not obviously but u um but uh uh the real was part was part of the leadership of MFJ. We were always open about our organization. People weren't required to agree with us or to join us to to be active parts and play leading parts in MFJ. So it's not true.
01:18:10 leading parts in MFJ. So it's not true. And as I understand it, you say that um real and ever they're just completely two separate groups. Is that right? They're separate groups, but I mean obviously real members, we were the ones that felt very much at the time that there needed to be an organ a general organization like MFJ.
01:18:23 organization like MFJ. [cough and clears throat] Um looking at the next part of what uh Peter Francis says, did real through MFJ try to leverage justice issues to recruit
01:18:41 recruit I don't know what he means le leverage. Um it's again it's kind of like it's like it's like we're using justice issues as as for for a motive and that's obviously not that's just a a trope. It's not correct. Um of course anyone who is interested
01:18:52 who is interested who through the course of struggle realizes they're interested in what we were saying of course we'd recruit them. Uh and uh then the final part or to
01:19:03 Uh and uh then the final part or to break down the relationship between the public and the police to create the conditions for a revolution. Is that accurate?
01:19:09 accurate? I think the police are doing the job for us really on that. It's not uh we don't need to get it up, but at paragraph 46 of your witness statement, you say that MFJ was set up in order to
01:19:22 you say that MFJ was set up in order to have more freedom and movement to speak the truth and focus on racism. Can you please explain what do you mean by this? [clears throat]
01:19:38 [clears throat] Um and it's a lot of reasons but before MFJ was formed the movement was very much based on single issue cases and and uh and we felt at the time just assessing that situation that there actually need that there had to be a
01:19:52 actually need that there had to be a movement that contained all of them to be really effective. Having onetoone campaigns separate campaigns was not working.
01:19:58 working. I think so that was one thing the reasons why move for justice was formed was to to be a focus for that. Um the other thing it was very clear that you
01:20:13 other thing it was very clear that you know most of the people in the movement they don't have the privilege of an elite education of a sense of feeling confident and that there had to be and to be leaders we had to we had to have an organization that developed us as leaders.
01:20:29 that developed us as leaders. Thank you. if we could get up um the MFJ pledge at UCPI5038667
01:20:33 tab A4 of Mad's bundle please.
01:20:51 This is the pledge that you've explained um was created in 2005 and 2006 but did apply at the time it was create um MFJ [clears throat] was created. I just want to take you to a couple of parts of it. On page one underneath the heading, the headline aim is to building an independent integrated mass youth and
01:21:06 an independent integrated mass youth and studentled civil rights rights movement. Was that the aim? The ultimate aim in the late 1990s. And so the aim now and the aim now. Thank you. Page two, paragraph two.
01:21:23 [snorts] If the oppressed of this nation unite and assert our great collective social power through the building of a new youthled mo mass militant integrated movement independent of the Labour Party, Britain can become our nation, a truly egalitarian and deeply human
01:21:36 truly egalitarian and deeply human society. A model of diversity, equality, mutual respect and human progress for the rest of the world to emulate. Yeah. Can you explain what is meant by the use of the word militant? Uh militant in the phrase that we were we were
01:21:51 we were we'd speak the truth and that we'd organize
01:21:52 organize militant action like demonstrations etc. Militancy is is a term that's very common in the labor movement and in the history of all kind of struggles
01:22:08 history of all kind of struggles we refer to ourselves as militant that we're we're prepared to stand and organize and fight for what we believe in. And so I just it's common phrase I don't
01:22:18 don't uh if we can move down to paragraph four
01:22:27 um you describe an integrated uh mass actions that unite poor workingclass and middleclass white communities with black Asian Muslim immigrant and other oppressed communities in a single movement
01:22:38 movement for our shared demands are the only way to break down the racial and ethnic divisions created uh by ignorance fear mistrust and um segregation. Yes.
01:22:49 Yes. And this was the same in the 1990s and early 2000s. If we could go please. So MPS01786
01:22:54 at tab B 100 of the MFJ bundle.
01:23:12 This is a David Hagen intelligence report about MFJ civil rights march in London on the 7th. Oh yes. February 1999. You can see it was estimated about 500 people uh would attend. Do you recall this march? Yes. Yes. Very well. Were you you were present for it?
01:23:32 Were you you were present for it? Oh yes. We were part organizing. It was more than 500. If you go to the bottom of page one, the final paragraph that goes into page two.
01:23:52 It states, "Another cause for concern within MFJ was the makeup of the crowd, which they assessed as a 50/50 split between black and whites, thus indicating their failure to bring the black community out onto the streets in sufficient numbers, especially considering that MFJ concentrate on
01:24:03 considering that MFJ concentrate on black issues. Indeed, the angry young blacks seem less than interested in a
01:24:14 blacks seem less than interested in a civil rights movement, and as such, they are unlikely to become involved in it." Again, looking at the accuracy of the reporting here, is it accurate that MFJ thought that there had been a failure to bring the black community out onto the streets for the march?
01:24:28 streets for the march? Well, firstly, that I remember that civil rights march and it was um it was really integrated. We were absolutely pleased and the black and Asian part of that march was active as being part of
01:24:41 that march was active as being part of that dynamism of the march. I I I think it was one of the great I I remember that demonstration. were absolutely pleased. The response from the local community and the black community was really great. I think the rest of what he's saying is just
01:24:55 he's saying is just it's just I mean that's his assessment. I'm not going to comment on that. What is your reaction to the suggestion that the angry young black seem less than interested in a civil rights movement?
01:25:08 movement? Angry young black. It says it all, doesn't it? No, I I know uh particularly of the black youth in Brixham that I lived with, right? you know they were um they they were more than willing to be
01:25:19 they they were more than willing to be mobilized and when we had the uh don't walk on by which [clears throat] they took up so we had a lot of authority and respect you know and I think the black
01:25:31 respect you know and I think the black youth at that time they really rose to the occasion you know and so yeah so this is just all racist rubbish. Um, at paragraph 21 and 22 of your witness statement, you say that the movement for justice campaigned
01:25:44 movement for justice campaigned actively, particularly in the Brixton area.
01:25:45 area. Yes. Correct. And issues such as police brutality. Yes.
01:25:52 Yes. Deaths in custody. Yes.
01:25:59 Yes. The scapegoating of asylum seekers and immigrants. Yes. And a system of race, detention, and deportation. Yes.
01:26:02 Yes. Is it? And uh I think we've identified MFJ also supported single issue campaigns and racial justice campaigns such as Roger Sylvester that I think you've referred to in your witness statement at paragraph 12
01:26:14 statement at paragraph 12 and the Steven Lawrence uh campaign. Yes.
01:26:20 Yes. Um what type of activities did Movement for Justice involve itself in to pursue its campaigns? We'd have public meetings. We'd organize like with the Derek Bennett police murder. We'd organize uh work at community tribunals
01:26:32 community tribunals uh which we done. We'd have petitions, demonstrations and also we'd we'd be also intervene in or mobilize for you know council meetings when an issue was coming up
01:26:45 meetings when an issue was coming up make representations and in the local police consultative body.
01:26:56 police consultative body. I want to turn to uh David Hagen's involvement in movement for justice. You accept at paragraph 30 of your witness statement that he must have joined movement for justice around June 1997.
01:27:03 1997. Yeah.
01:27:07 Yeah. Please could you describe what you recall David Hagen's involvement in movement just movement for justice to be he'd come to the meetings. He was an active member so he'd come to our
01:27:20 active member so he'd come to our events. He could be relied on to come to our events you know whether pickets or demonstrations. Um, that's all I really recall from him. Um,
01:27:34 yeah. Um, was he part of the leadership team? No.
01:27:39 And did he take part in meetings and demonstrations where he put forward his um, views as to the types of things that MFJ should be doing?
01:27:53 MFJ should be doing? Um, I don't recall that in the meetings where everyone came up with ideas. We we we might come up with cuz we come up if there's anything to agree on policy [clears throat] or actions. We'd draft a proposal. We'd take it to our meeting and everyone in the meeting would discuss it and then we take a vote. He
01:28:12 discuss it and then we take a vote. He may have had some input in that. Nothing I recall around that time was agreed
01:28:14 agreed specifically because of his interventions. The only kind of interventions I recall is on the BMY situation that I recall. I will come to that um later. But um as I understand it from paragraph 33 of
01:28:28 I understand it from paragraph 33 of your witness statement, you recall him being involved in four particular events.
01:28:32 events. Uh when the police sought to criminalize Dwayne Brooks, the Steven Lawrence inquiry. Yes. And during the campaign around poling in Brixham and Burmany. Yes.
01:28:41 Yes. Um, if we could bring up um, David Hagen's witness statement, page 55, paragraph 172.
01:29:09 says here during my deployment the following would have considered themselves as comrades or close friends of David Hagen and you see there be Alex Oarde Karan and Tony Guard of the MFJ.
01:29:23 Oarde Karan and Tony Guard of the MFJ. Did you consider him a close friend or comrade?
01:29:26 comrade? No. And how do you see your relationship with David Hagen at the time? I mean, he was very cordial to towards me and as a white male, I I noted that he wasn't as patronizing. Obviously, I
01:29:37 he wasn't as patronizing. Obviously, I hadn't seen all this, you know, so that explains that, but um but no, he was an activist, so he was an associate, you know. Um, and most of the times our
01:29:54 know. Um, and most of the times our interactions were in meetings or actions that we'd organized or actions we were supporting. I think at paragraph 221 of your witness statement, you uh describe it as a professional relationship with him. Absolutely.
01:30:08 Absolutely. So, did you see him outside of MFJ meetings and demonstrations? Um, if we can go to the next paragraph in David Hagen's statement, paragraph 173,
01:30:23 David Hagen describes himself saying, "Byond being a trusted but not 100% reliable activist, I did not assume any positions of responsibility within the organizations despite their best efforts
01:30:38 organizations despite their best efforts to get me to do so. I did not assume any position of trust personally for any of the individuals with whom I came into contact. Would you describe David Hen as a trusted but not 100% reliable activist?
01:30:47 activist? I'd just say he was a reliable activist at the time. And did you or anyone else in Movement for Justice ever seek to persuade David Hagen to assume any position of responsibility in [clears throat] Movement for Justice? Uh, I don't recall that.
01:31:11 Uh you say you didn't uh see David Hagen outside of um MFJ activities. Um but do you recall ever going to each other's houses?
01:31:12 houses? No. [cough] Would you ever have held a a movement for justice meeting at your home that he may have attended? I had a very small flat and it's private.
01:31:25 and it's private. And do you recall discussing any personal matters with him?
01:31:33 We can move on to a another topic. Uh and um
01:31:40 and um in your witness statement please 5038674
01:31:42 5038674 tab A1
01:31:44 tab A1 at paragraph 49.
01:31:56 page nine.
01:32:09 Uh so at this point in your witness statement, in response to a question about whether you advocated, provoked, or approved of public disorder, breaking the law, subversion in furtherance of
01:32:20 the law, subversion in furtherance of your or your group's aims, your response included this. Mhm. If you look at history, the abolitionist movement in the UK and US, the suffragettes, the trade union movements and the fight of black Asian and
01:32:34 and the fight of black Asian and immigrant youth, we took inspiration from these types of successful movements. Yeah.
01:32:39 Yeah. Can you please elaborate what you mean in terms of MFJ's approach to public disorder and violence? Approach to public disorder. Okay. So, I mean the question I want to reverse the question. our approach to violence or threats against us. Uh
01:32:53 to violence or threats against us. Uh the abolitionist movement, I mean, one of the inspirations was it it was mass. It was um I I know in in Britain it it it started with a boycott campaign had
01:33:06 it started with a boycott campaign had demonstrations in the US as well and and in Britain the abolishment meant that uh when slaves came with their masters to the ports in Britain particularly in
01:33:21 the ports in Britain particularly in London right uh there was a campaign to physically take them take free the slaves and to protect them so that that That's inspiration or you know
01:33:33 That's inspiration or you know confronting the slave masters and making sure that I I think all these all these movements which people are aware of they were mass movements they were [clears throat]
01:33:50 [clears throat] uh and they were movements that were successful and all those movements would be called at that time subversive so that that's why I said that and in looking at your personal view on using violence in protests or demonstrations
01:34:08 demonstrations again. Um what would you say about that? For example, defensive would you use preemptive force in terms of demonstrations? Um
01:34:16 Um yeah, see so we it's not I've never had a discussion that we were going to you term use violence as a tactic. What we do is um so I'm not we're not not going to go out to cause violence for violence sake but we know that our opponents are
01:34:31 sake but we know that our opponents are violent. So we would organize defense of them and and preparate we would know before going to an anti you know anti uh anti-fascist mobilization that we had to make sure everyone was we everyone was
01:34:43 make sure everyone was we everyone was together that we had stewards. So that was preemptive preemptive the violence that we were going to face either from the police or the um or the fascist. So that's
01:34:56 So that's does that address your question? Yes. Um could we have up MPS 07 treble 42
01:35:09 42 B17 of Mr. Olard's bundle please? [clears throat]
01:35:18 Uh you can see this is a special B branch report dated the 14th of February 1995.
01:35:22 1995. And you can see in the left hand column the subject is you. Mhm.
01:35:30 Mhm. And paragraph one it explains this report deals with comprehensive inquiries conducted in respect of Alexander Olard also known as Alex Olardi chairman of the revolutionary internationalist league and an active
01:35:44 internationalist league and an active member of both youth against racism in Europe and the Kingsway anti-fascist group. [snorts] Um is it right that you were not in fact a member of Yre? No, we we were a separate group, but we worked together and we had some difference particularly
01:36:03 and we had some difference particularly around the role of black leadership, but um we worked together on demonstrations and and we'd have discussions in meetings, but I I was more of a member of movement for justice than
01:36:14 justice than uh and as I understand it from paragraph 159 of your witness statements, you did attend Y meetings but as part of MFJ. That's correct. And what would have been your role in those Y meetings as part of MFJ?
01:36:24 MFJ? Um
01:36:30 uh would be to um if it was discussing actions or demonstrations would be working with them as other organizations to make sure those demonstrations are successful. I think we had political discussions debates with the Y. There's
01:36:43 discussions debates with the Y. There's some differences as I said particularly on the on the role of of not just black
01:36:55 on the on the role of of not just black leadership but on the role of racism has been essential for you uniting the working class and the masses. Yeah. If we go to page two paragraph 8 please.
01:37:07 please. Aard next came to notice on the 6th of November 1993 on the occasion of the annual general meeting of the British
01:37:20 annual general meeting of the British National Party BNP when he was part of a committed left-wing contingent of about 100 persons including the anti-Nazi league and wi who were out to try and prevent the AGM taking place. [clears throat] For reasons which remain unclear, a fight broke out between British transport police officers and a number of
01:37:31 police officers and a number of left-wingers on the platforms at Baker Street Underground Station, during which Aard was seen swinging his placard at police and trying to grab hold of an unidentified demonstrator in an attempt
01:37:48 unidentified demonstrator in an attempt to prevent him being arrested. Olard was arrested and subsequently charged with obstructing police at Highway Corner Magistrate's Court on the 2nd of March 94. The case was dismissed and he was bound over to be of good behavior
01:38:01 was bound over to be of good behavior for 12 months in the sum of £100. Do you recall this arrest? Yes, I do. Yeah. Did a fight break out and and do you recall why? No, I I what I recall is we
01:38:18 recall why? No, I I what I recall is we were in Baker Street station and we were attacked by a group of police officers and I remember specifically that that there was one of our of the anti-fascists was on the floor and there was three police officers on top of him
01:38:31 was three police officers on top of him and I kind of my automatic reaction was to to to help the guy. So I I grabbed one of the police officer said, "You need to get off him cuz they I think they were he was being suffocated." So that's when I got arrested.
01:38:43 that's when I got arrested. You say you were attacked by police. What um instigated that? Can you recall? Well, we were trying we as we were saying, we were trying to to to challenge that uh uh AGM meeting. We
01:38:59 challenge that uh uh AGM meeting. We wanted to kind of disrupt it in a sense. Um and and the police uh were chasing us. I remember that time being chased around the streets with police. I don't know. Um so that and then I think I I
01:39:11 know. Um so that and then I think I I can't understand but I think we were on the tube state. I'm not whether we were dispersing or not but then we I remember we were underneath inside the thing and
01:39:23 we were underneath inside the thing and suddenly all these police officers came from nowhere and they started pushing and fighting with us and hitting us and that's when this guy four uh three police jumped on this guy who was on the floor underneath them. [clears throat]
01:39:36 floor underneath them. [clears throat] And then the report says that you were seen swinging a placard at police and trying to grab hold of an unidentified demonstrator. Is that accurate? I don't recall swinging plaque. I don't think I
01:39:51 recall swinging plaque. I don't think I was holding placards then, but I also uh the unidentified demonstrator I was trying to come to his aid. So your view on this um your evidence on on this is that you're acting in defense of another. Yes, exactly.
01:40:07 So in general in terms of demonstrations you were involved in is it your uh view
01:40:19 you were involved in is it your uh view therefore you were willing to use lawful violence uh in at demonstrations i.e. self-defense or defense of another. Yeah.
01:40:22 Yeah. uh I don't know about it lawfulness but I I think we have a right to defend ourselves and and we should exercise
01:40:34 ourselves and and we should exercise that uh and for that uh and we also have a right to prevent terror organizations from operating. If I can move to the next topic I want to ask you about um a document if we can bring up please UCPI5029708
01:40:54 tab B5 of Mr. Olades bundle. You can see this is a special branch report dated the 18th of January 1994.
01:41:10 report dated the 18th of January 1994. You can see in the top hand corner HN78. Um Trevor Morris um an SCS officer and as I understand it Peter Francis also contributed to this report. Uh you can see from page one paragraph one if we can just um
01:41:23 one if we can just um expand that. Thank you. It relates to an event when a number of left-wing groups you can see there notably the anti-Nazi league wiry and AFA tried to stop a concert by the skin head music movement Blood and Honor
01:41:38 Blood and Honor on the 15th of January 1994. Yeah. Do you recall this event? Yeah, I do. I think cuz in your witness statement I think you said that you didn't recall it. Uh, but is that in incorrect? Is that the same way where they they kidnapped us on the train? On the train. Yes. Yes.
01:41:48 Yes. Yes. Yeah.
01:41:53 Yeah. Because I I think it um in paragraph 120 to 129 of your witness statement um you describe it following a protest against a BMP march and blockading the road. Do you think that's actually incorrect?
01:42:05 you think that's actually incorrect? Yeah. Yeah, I think this is more correct. Yeah. Thank you. If we can go to page three, paragraph five.
01:42:18 [clears throat]
01:42:22 You can see here it says a group of about a hundred comprising members of the Kingsway Anti-Fascist group under Lewis Wiry the Revolutionary International League and Militant went to Old Street station in small units of
01:42:37 to Old Street station in small units of about five activists to oppose the blood and honor gig. The Alliance of Anti-Fascists is notable because it contains mostly streetwise activists who are courageous in battle almost to the point of madness.
01:42:48 point of madness. Just pausing there. Did KFG or real often demonstrated extreme right-wing group events?
01:43:02 Any of Okay, you say extreme right-wing. It's a bit of We're talking about fascists.
01:43:02 fascists. Fascists.
01:43:03 Fascists. Yeah.
01:43:03 Yeah. Replace that with like the fascists today. They're not right extreme rightwing. fascists and uh yeah, anytime the fascists were trying
01:43:14 yeah, anytime the fascists were trying to organize, we would be mobilizing with everyone else against them. And if it was suggested to you that KFG's attendance at fascist events was
01:43:27 KFG's attendance at fascist events was likely to cause physical confrontation, what would you say to that? I think anyone, any anti-fascist that turned up to protest a fascist mobilization
01:43:42 mobilization would face violence from the police. That's the truth of the matter. Just the police.
01:43:49 Just the police. Yes. Because the police would protect the fascists. I mean, you be you I mean, you every demonstration there'd be rows and rows of police. You couldn't get anywhere near it. And so the and if we were attempting to block a road or whatever we're trying to do to to uh to isolate or minimize their their ability
01:44:06 isolate or minimize their their ability to promote themselves in that event, uh all the confrontations I've ever had with fascists really to be honest has been the police. What about the fascists themselves?
01:44:23 What about the fascists themselves? Yeah, on individual things when they're by themselves. I you know obviously um uh I can't recall specifically but um there's been situations where um I've we've come away from an anti-fascist event or I've been in situation where I've seen a racist
01:44:34 situation where I've seen a racist attack and have intervened and they've tried to um attack me and when face when I was younger as well in Leicester we had NF family next door and we had a lot of physical
01:44:46 and we had a lot of physical confrontation well they defend defending ourselves and they at one point shot our
01:44:58 ourselves and they at one point shot our windows out with a shotgun but we stayed there and they left. So
01:45:02 So um looking at those events that you've described
01:45:09 described when faced you say with um physical confrontation from the police or fascists. Yes. What was KFG's attitude to being involved in that physical confrontation? Well, we will defend we, as I said
01:45:25 Well, we will defend we, as I said before, we would we will be organized in a way to protect ourselves from those attacks.
01:45:31 attacks. And in protecting yourselves, would um members of KFG respond in a physical way?
01:45:37 way? Yeah. If you're getting attacked by someone, then you you would respond physically to it. How else can you respond to it? Uh looking back at the report and the reference to the groups containing mostly street wise activists who are
01:45:48 mostly street wise activists who are courageous in battle almost to the point of madness. Is this an accurate description of the groups you were involved in? Well, I'd say, you know, I remember that day. There was hundreds of us.
01:46:00 day. There was hundreds of us. And what I specifically remembered that day that was really inspiring was a lot of the white local youth came and joined us.
01:46:11 us. So, yeah,
01:46:15 So, yeah, I on the question of of being mad, I I refer to my opening statement. All my response is that is this their racist interpretation or stuff that they are
01:46:27 interpretation or stuff that they are that's his assessment. If we [snorts] go to page four, paragraph one.
01:46:37 Uh, so you see here, once the group arrived at Beacon Tree, they discovered that the gig had been cancelled and their intelligence suggested that there was fighting in bow ra between skin heads and anti-fascist. Do you recall that?
01:46:51 and anti-fascist. Do you recall that? I remember it being cancelled and it was an absolute victory. That was I mean I think the fact that we mobilized and we
01:47:02 think the fact that we mobilized and we were immobilizing beforehand and that we turned up on the day in on mass really creates a situation where they had cancer so that was complete victory. So I was h very happy about that. I didn't know anything about what was going on in B road.
01:47:12 B road. Um, it then goes on to say, "Negotiations were entered into between Lois Austin, the group's spokesperson, and police.
01:47:24 and police. Austin rather naively accepted transport on a special train towards Bow Road to join the Frey. Once the train dubbed the Red Express arrived and the
01:47:35 Red Express arrived and the demonstrators, including a number of ANL activists who were in the vicinity, had boarded, it became clear that the police had no intention of delivering their charges to Bow Road. So, firstly,
01:47:47 charges to Bow Road. So, firstly, is it right that you know um Lois Austin?
01:47:48 Austin? Yes.
01:47:53 Yes. And do you recall her negotiating with the police at this point? She may have. Were you involved in part of those negotiations?
01:48:10 Um, you say at paragraph 122 of your witness statement that you were directed to the train by police. Is that Yeah, we were told and it might have been stewards as well told cuz we were dispersing that we should direct you to a station to disperse. And did activists do that?
01:48:26 And did activists do that? Yes, we all went on I mean I didn't know it was a special train until we got on it and it wasn't stopping at any stations.
01:48:28 stations. Um, and I think also at paragraph 123 at your witness statement, you note that at this point nobody had been cautioned or arrested.
01:48:35 arrested. No. No.
01:48:39 No. No. And what happened then once you got on the train?
01:48:49 the train? Well, the train just it was it was quite bizarre. It's like the Twilight Zone. We got the train was packed with all of us and um and we were just going by stations. We would slow down and then it wouldn't stop and then the doors wouldn't open. and it would go to the next station and people we were shout shat and pressing the thing what's going
01:49:00 shat and pressing the thing what's going on and um the train just went on to El's call so we were on there for a long time it was really quite how long do you think you were on the train for
01:49:13 train for I can't remember uh but it was it's kind of you know where we were and I was caught other sides of central London so it was quite some time and what was the atmosphere like on the train
01:49:24 train some people were really freaking out cuz it was really packed And the train wasn't stopping. I think the uh people were banging on the windows. I know people were banging on the windows when we slowed down telling the passengers, you know,
01:49:37 telling the passengers, you know, we're being kidnapped. It was really bizarre. So yeah, I'm very, you know, I'm very upset and not wondering what what what's going to happen, where we been taken to.
01:49:50 been taken to. And um you then arrive at Court and the doors open. Yes. What then happens? We were just
01:50:02 We were just the police were there in mass in riot um gear and trunctions and they just attacked us. I mean it was just incredible. We just as we come out the station it's just like wow and they were just like it was like a police riot and they were and in fact some
01:50:18 riot and they were and in fact some people some of the people who are just people walking by got caught up. I remember one lady got um hit by the
01:50:30 remember one lady got um hit by the police and she was just wandering from a hotel to go down to the shops or cafe. It was it was like um Yeah.
01:50:35 Yeah. Um do you recall seeing anything um that uh started the police's actions? No, completely unprovoked.
01:50:50 No, completely unprovoked. Can you remind me how many people activists who were um coming out of court at that time? um two or 300. And again, the number of police presence,
01:50:57 presence, hundreds and hundreds. We just saw them all lined up on the street.
01:51:04 And was it just the activists who were um being hit or everyone and even people just passes by? And do you recall you or any other protest what you did in response to that? I remember me specifically cuz it
01:51:26 that? I remember me specifically cuz it was like a sudden attack. We had no time to prepare and I remember carrying in a corner, a shop door corner and had um three of my members, younger members underneath me and I was carrying on top to protect them. Um do you recall people having any injuries?
01:51:43 injuries? Oh god, it was like like a war zone. People were cut, bruises, blood. Um, I remember Boots opened up. The manager opened Boots and it was like a triage and first aid center. Yeah. And people walking around dazed. At
01:51:57 At paragraph 127 of your statement, you mentioned a friend of yours, Lois, who was beaten badly. Was that Lois Austin? Yeah. She beat her around the head. It was I thought they were trying to kill her.
01:52:12 her. And you say she suffered a permanent brain injury. Are you sure that that was the extent of the head injury? I'm not too sure, but I I I had and and if if I'm incorrect on that, that's fine. But I know she she suffered as a consequence that level of beating.
01:52:26 consequence that level of beating. And is right. She then had to go to hospital.
01:52:28 hospital. I don't know what she did after that, but I know. Um
01:52:33 Um how would you um describe going through that experience? Um it was shocking. Um,
01:52:48 but it made me more determined. I wasn't going to to We weren't going to submit to that to that type of intimidation. And at that time, how did this incident affect your views towards the police?
01:53:03 affect your views towards the police? Just confirmed. I mean I mean as a black person and a young person particularly under that police violence towards you is common place. You know I've seen it and I've got friends and
01:53:14 I've seen it and I've got friends and associates who when you get stopped by the police and they're ve they're very quick to be handsy. They're ready to to start any excuse to start to physically attack you. So, I'm um I'm not surpris I
01:53:30 attack you. So, I'm um I'm not surpris I I I felt that was a bit of an overreach. I think I thought the police were punishing us because we were successful of closing down that that fascist gig.
01:53:42 Um I'm going to show you a photograph. Um it's UCPI 5036031. So, I don't think there's a copy in your bundle. I'm afraid it is not a great photograph. If we could just zoom in on the one face that we can see.
01:54:01 the one face that we can see. Not ideal. Um, but as I understand it, um, this is a photograph of Peter Francis at the time. Uh, do you recognize that face?
01:54:13 Uh, do you recognize that face? Are you sure it is? Cuz actually now seen it looks like I won't mention his name. Looks like one of our comrades. Anyway, um, um,
01:54:21 um, I don't know. And again, this may be something you can't answer, but can you say if this looks like, if we can zoom back out, um a photo um of the day of that incident at Els Court station? Can you
01:54:27 you No, I can't tell though. Do you recall if um Peter Francis was there on that day um or on the train or involved in anything at Court? I don't recall, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was.
01:54:47 So, I appreciate it's only 11:20. It may be a convenient time to break. I can of course carry on but if you're moving on to another topic then it is convenient. Thank you. We'll break for 15 minutes.
02:16:15 Thanks, sir. Mr. Oardi, I would like to ask you about David Hagen and his reasons for targeting movement for justice. If we could have David Hagen's witness statement up, please. Page 30, paragraph 94.
02:16:31 MPS0748738
02:16:49 [clears throat]
02:17:21 [clears throat] It's simply the final sentence. He says the reason for targeting MFJ says by the time I started associating with MFJ the public order interest arose from their active opposition to stop and search. What do you say about the suggestion that MFJ were involved in public disorder by opposing stop and searches by police?
02:17:32 Perhaps he's referring to the I don't walk on by campaign. So explain what that is. Please do. Yeah. So this was having a collective response from the community against
02:17:46 response from the community against police's um harassment particular black youth by using the powers stop and search. And at the time the stop and search
02:17:53 search uh use by police officers to black youth was just massive. And and at some points when you'd walk through Brixton, if you're a black youth and you saw some
02:18:04 you're a black youth and you saw some police officers, you'd be stopped and searched and then they provoke you cuz they get very handsy on you and then suddenly you'd be
02:18:16 on you and then suddenly you'd be arrested and it' be, you know, so the way to respond to that was we were saying people when you see someone being stopped by the police, do not walk on by.
02:18:23 by. gather around, make sure the person's okay, ask the police officers what's the reason for it. And we had bus cards as well. So, we get the person's name and
02:18:34 well. So, we get the person's name and solicit uh uh and we have solicitors and it was very effective. I mean, very very effective. It's a collective response to that type of police street harassment
02:18:49 that type of police street harassment and um and it also creates a situation because what the police try and do is they pick on you and try and isolate you from everybody else and you feel very weak. You feel very unable to assert yourself. And by this crowding round
02:19:02 yourself. And by this crowding round gave that person the confidence to to to to assert themselves and to assert their rights
02:19:10 rights and and stop and search really dramatically reduced. It's one of our most effective campaigns. Um looking at what is being asserted here though is that you were causing
02:19:26 here though is that you were causing public disorder because of this approach to stop and search. What do you say about that? That's but we're defending our rights. But as I say the the police and who these people are acting for see defense as being public order issue.
02:19:41 as being public order issue. Please may I have MPS 40425
02:19:47 at tab B5 of the MFJ bundle.
02:20:00 This is an intelligence report about a movement for justice public meeting at
02:20:14 movement for justice public meeting at Brixton Recreation Center on the 26th of June 1997. So from the timing looks in and around the time that David Hagen joins Movement for Justice and you can see page one at paragraph one.
02:20:28 As you can see, they have a public meeting to draw attention to what they deem to be police harassment. And then moving on to paragraph two. Mhm.
02:20:39 Mhm. This, as I understand, is you making the main speech. Yeah. Could we have all of the um bullet points underneath as well, please?
02:20:53 points underneath as well, please? And this is you saying he stated that the objective of the movement was to stop police harassment of the black population in Lambbeath. Yeah. Specifically harassment of young black men. Yeah. A presented a series of proposals to the meeting. Copy attached which he
02:21:06 meeting. Copy attached which he elaborated on in his address. What he is calling for is continued publicity of death in police custody and incidents of harassment. mobilization of the local black population to challenge police
02:21:17 population to challenge police physically when stopping sorry when stops are carried out on young black men on Lambert streets thereby forcing the police to withdraw. Olard argued that
02:21:30 police to withdraw. Olard argued that organized resistance would lead to nogo areas for police. He added that an estate or area should be designated to become the first zero police tolerance
02:21:45 become the first zero police tolerance zone suggesting that the Lurra Park or Stockwell Park estates would be uh suitable. I think you've already indicated that MFJ [clears throat] considered these Stockland searches to be police harassment.
02:21:57 be police harassment. Well, they were and um and we we did we wanted the zero tolerance particularly in Amber and Brixton of police harassment. Yes. Um the first point I want you to uh comment on Yes.
02:22:11 want you to uh comment on Yes. is um the suggestion that you were proposing to challenge police physically when stop and searches were carried out on young black men. Do you recall saying that at this meeting?
02:22:22 that at this meeting? No, we were talking uh I do recall that's when we were launching the don't walk and buy campaign which I've described. Yes. So just for clarity where it says here that you in this speech said that you propose challenge police physically. Do you recall saying that?
02:22:33 Do you recall saying that? No, I don't recall using those words. I just want to be clear [clears throat] that we're, you know, we're talking
02:22:45 that we're, you know, we're talking about um dog or buy was an intervention, a collective interment by the community members to stop police harassment of our young black people. Uh but are you saying not physically?
02:22:56 Uh but are you saying not physically? Well, physically we're there physically. We ask that people should surround the surround and gather out physically. We used to ask you know uh that you know as members of the community we say firstly to the person we are you okay so they
02:23:08 to the person we are you okay so they know and then we turn to the police and say why are you stopping this person we challenged the police
02:23:22 challenged the police and ask them why they've on what basis they stopped this person and in most cases when that happened the police withdraw because they had no good reason.
02:23:23 reason. [snorts]
02:23:28 [snorts] And when you say surround the police, can you
02:23:34 can you you explain multiple people closing the police around them? How would you describe that? Okay. So one thing in a sense the don't walk on by this idea the don't walk on
02:23:46 walk on by this idea the don't walk on by perspective of people stopping when they see particularly young black uh male being stopped by police or any youngsters because the police were stopping school students and hanging and and searching them on the street corner. Uh people were doing that. People would do that naturally stop and say what's
02:24:00 do that naturally stop and say what's going on. what we want to do is to give that an a much more organized and more collective uh response which happened.
02:24:14 collective uh response which happened. So yes, we will be gathering around them and physically I mean we can't the I don't recall a situation where
02:24:26 anyway I it's it's strange because the way they're posing it and the way I pose it is too different. to kind of do
02:24:35 it is too different. to kind of do different planes. But I just say yes, we were physically wanted to give physical support for that person and that meant gathering around and asking people to stop and and and demanding of the police to explain their actions.
02:24:48 to explain their actions. Um, and so I'm clear on understanding your evidence. Did you propose a zero police tolerance zone? Our campaign was for zero tolerance of police racist harassment. And so what was the intention with this proposal of
02:25:02 was the intention with this proposal of of a zero tolerance of police racist have
02:25:05 have exactly what it says a zero tolerance and preventing that from happening creating a climate in the community where the police felt they couldn't do that?
02:25:16 that? Uh in terms of this zero police tolerance zone were you saying the police would not be allowed in? Can I just correct you please do?
02:25:27 please do? Okay so that's what he is saying or who that person is zero tolerance. Well, I I don't recall that that phrase, but we were arguing definitely for a zero tolerance of racist police harassment.
02:25:38 tolerance of racist police harassment. And if it was suggested to you that this was an unlawful approach, what would you say?
02:25:44 say? What? To to assert our rights in a physical manner? Um well, it's not unlawful. Um
02:25:54 Um cuz every time that was done, the police responded. When you ask police what they're doing, they have a duty to explain it themselves. So, I don't see how it was illegal.
02:26:12 Um, [clears throat] were members of um MFJ planning to have personal physical contact with the police?
02:26:13 police? You must be joking. Um, and as I understand MFJ did carry out this proposal. Yeah, it was very successful campaign.
02:26:27 And you say h in your statement paragraph 99, we don't need to get it up, that the police ended up complaining about that. Is that right? Oh, I noticed that. And it's one of the things that's useful about one of the useful things about the disclosure. You get even though it's distorted, you get
02:26:46 get even though it's distorted, you get we were really, really successful. Yes. I was very pleased to hear that that they felt that I mean they wordy in their own way. They'll say, "Oh, it's for public, you know, we're there to defend the public, all that stuff." just take that as red. That's the their mantra. But the fact that they felt that
02:27:01 mantra. But the fact that they felt that they were the community was holding them to account and they felt they couldn't do as much of the harassment they're doing. I think that was excellent. I was very pleased to hear that.
02:27:12 very pleased to hear that. And lastly on this report, if we can go to the final sentence on page one, this is about um the meeting
02:27:24 Um,
02:27:39 I think it goes into the second page. Ah, here we go. It was quite clear that the black element of the audience saw all white people as part of the problem. The organizers of the meeting noted this and they gave out leaflets only to the
02:27:52 and they gave out leaflets only to the black members of the audience. Is that accurate?
02:27:53 accurate? Never.
02:28:03 Never. And it's not none of that is accurate about describing black people in the meeting and [cough] and and [clears throat] our approach. We're an integrated it's an integrated struggle. No. and and
02:28:15 an integrated struggle. No. and and black that community and especially the black youth for were very much integrated. So it's it's just a racist interpretation.
02:28:26 interpretation. Um I would like to ask you about the full name of movement for justice. Yeah.
02:28:31 Yeah. And you refer again to your uh pledge if we could have that back up please. UCPI50
02:28:33 UCPI50 38667
02:28:35 38667 excuse me tab A4 of Malard's bundle and we can see there movement for justice by any means necessary and you state in your statement that
02:28:46 and you state in your statement that this pledge is the best way to explain it. Can you elaborate on what is meant by any means necessary please? So uh we
02:28:58 by any means necessary please? So uh we uh it means that the means to to protect yourself from uh from oppression
02:29:11 uh from oppression and the means for the for the oppressed to to defend itself and to fight for change
02:29:12 change has to be determined by what what our needs are not necessarily on what the
02:29:23 needs are not necessarily on what the established roots. So example uh by any means necessary we determine the means that is necessary to defend ourselves and to get and to def and to defend our rights. So for example, demonstrations,
02:29:34 demonstrations, petitions, we felt very much, it's very true and it's in all movements that especially those that um you know as being we're not part of the establishment and
02:29:45 not part of the establishment and sometimes it's the establishment we're we're dealing with that our power is on always on the streets when we're collective and we're mobilized. So that's what by any means necessarily means. If if it was suggested to you
02:29:57 means. If if it was suggested to you that an imperence could be drawn that movement for justice would be willing to support violence to achieve its objectives. What would you say to that?
02:30:10 objectives. What would you say to that? Okay, by any means necessary is a very common
02:30:14 common uh tagline or perspective of a lot of the particularly the civil rights movements. By any means necessary, it's common. Um I as again we're not sitting there to seek violence but we are
02:30:27 there to seek violence but we are prepared to physically defend ourselves to assert our rights and was movement for justice's interpretation of by any means necessary made clear to people attending your meetings and demonstrations.
02:30:39 meetings and demonstrations. I think at the time this is amongst particularly the black uh black rights movement both here and his going back even my father's generation by any means necessary everyone knew what that meant
02:30:53 necessary everyone knew what that meant by any means necessary for us it made it clear a differential between those who think who's trying to say oh we have to wait for the system we have to put
02:31:04 wait for the system we have to put complaints and we sit and wait and the you know the system that we're complaining about determines how we protest um we wanted to be independent from that. So people felt so it's clear to be honest we never had much debate
02:31:16 to be honest we never had much debate about that because people knew what it meant.
02:31:25 meant. Did um you or other MFJ leaders actively advise members to avoid using violence in demonstrations?
02:31:33 I'm just it's it's a question because there's a kind of inference in that questions that somehow we were talking about whether we should initiate violence or not and that's not how it happened. What would to answer that
02:31:47 happened. What would to answer that question is our main thing concern is that we had to stick together and be organized if we're in a situation when we face violence either from the police or from the fascists or whatever. I think um sometimes there'd be a
02:32:00 think um sometimes there'd be a situation and that's kind of discipline where there's been a provocation by a fascist or police or someone who's an agent agent and we'd have to make sure that person we protect that person
02:32:11 sure that person we protect that person so they wouldn't be set up. So that was the only thing I can recall but most of the time the question of violence has always been how do we make sure that
02:32:23 always been how do we make sure that we're protected from it. Um, one more point on this page two, the final paragraph and it goes into page three. It's part of the pledge and it says
02:32:35 Yeah, I love that one.
02:32:44 Yeah, there we go. I [snorts] do not fear the anger, boldness, or power of youth and struggle. I refuse to condemn youth who riot because they see no other way to express their anger and opposition to
02:32:55 express their anger and opposition to the government's policies. I stand with Dr. Martin Luther King who stated the plain truth that riots are the language of those who are not heard. Can you explain what is meant by this paragraph, please?
02:33:03 please? Well, it's exactly Oh, I I think it's self-explanatory. Do you want [snorts] um my point being in particular the refusal to condemn the youth who run?
02:33:15 refusal to condemn the youth who run? Yeah, we stand with Martin Luther King. That's what he did. Can you explain what you mean though in terms of if you look at this from an outsers's point of view and it specifically doesn't condemn riot? Can you elaborate on what you mean?
02:33:29 on what you mean? No. Uh we've never condemn Okay. We can we condemn police riots and fascist and
02:33:42 we condemn police riots and fascist and racist rights obviously. Um but okay. So like there was um and riots are kind of that's what's described by the police, but it might be uh uh black youth are being attacked deciding to fight back and defend themselves or or um but yes,
02:33:58 or um but yes, I I don't riots are from our side where it talks about the black youth who are because they're not being heard and it's the only way they feel that they're going to be listening to. And in the 80s, it was the up and we call them
02:34:11 80s, it was the up and we call them uprisings by the way. Yeah, they're [clears throat] uprisings. And in the 80s, the uprisings in 80s was the only time that things actually changed where the authorities were listened. We had the scarman report. And
02:34:26 listened. We had the scarman report. And I know in Lambbeirth, it was it was that riots that led to the first time where councils like Lambeath, which had a color bar in employment, started to employ black people. And I was one of the first generation of black people to be employed by a local authority. So yes, they are they are expressions of
02:34:39 yes, they are they are expressions of anger quite rightly. And sometimes the youth feel the only way they can assert themselves and be listened to is is to upright uh is uprising to have an
02:34:53 upright uh is uprising to have an uprising. So um yeah and it's stating the fact really and
02:35:04 and and we you know we don't condemn if if the young people feel and it's quite true that the only way they can get heard is to do is is to up have an uprising then why would we condemn them? We condemn the authorities that caused it.
02:35:16 it. Um I want to move on to um movement for justice approach to stewarding. Yeah. Um, can we please have up MPS01769
02:35:27 tab B60 of the MFJ bundle? [clears throat]
02:35:31 This is an intelligence report from David Hagen regarding a steward's meeting on the 3rd of February 1999 for an MFJ march on the 6th of February
02:35:42 for an MFJ march on the 6th of February 99. I believe it to be the civil rights march.
02:35:42 march. Right.
02:35:48 Right. Um, is it right just in general terms that you acted as a steward for MFJ demonstrations? Yeah, and in that march I was the lead steward.
02:35:58 steward. And [snorts] could you just describe what that role entailed for MFJ? Um,
02:36:07 so stewards were there to make sure um to organize that when people arrived, we could make sure people were lining up. We could then coordinate the march. So we when we uh when we left we can all leave together. Our stewards were mainly based at the front and at the side. Um
02:36:20 based at the front and at the side. Um our uh a lot of our marches we we were accompanied by lines of police officers. We made sure there was a steward line between them to make sure the police
02:36:32 between them to make sure the police officers don't think they can harass the march as they marched. It was responsible to make sure the march moved forward in an orderly fashion and if
02:36:44 forward in an orderly fashion and if there was an attack to be the front line and give confidence to the marches and also to make sure that people on the marches there maybe there were a lot of marches. We had parents with children and stuff like that and we just made sure that they they were safe and there
02:36:56 sure that they they were safe and there was any problems and that the march was marching so no one was being left behind. Everyone was marching together. So that's a general stewarding role. And uh would the stewards leade with the police prior to the demonstration?
02:37:08 police prior to the demonstration? Um in some some organizations do it. We kind of
02:37:10 kind of What did MFJ do? Occasionally. Why not always? Because uh we found out that when you talk to the police before that all they just try and set up to make the march as as minimal as possible. Uh but the
02:37:25 as minimal as possible. Uh but the police didn't mind about that cuz we used to publicize the march and the roots. So they were aware of the march. Usually when we turned up the police were there, they knew the route that
02:37:42 were there, they knew the route that there may have been um we we'd allocate one of the stewards to be uh to to you because the police say, "Oh, is there someone we can be in contact with and we'd allocate one of the stewards to do that? We'd make sure none of the main stewards because a lot of the times when the police have their leazison officer,
02:37:54 the police have their leazison officer, they come and in the middle of leading a march and they kind of disrupt it. It's a very disruptive process they play. So we'd allocate someone to to be the person
02:38:03 person and that's during the demonstration. Yeah.
02:38:04 Yeah. Yeah.
02:38:12 Would Movement for Justice uh stewards ever ignore the directions given by the police during demonstrations? Depends what the instructions were. So sometimes Yeah. I mean if if if if the police were saying that we can't march. Okay. Say
02:38:27 saying that we can't march. Okay. Say there was an example. We were marching at one point I remember called to Kellington police station where there had been a death in custody and the police as we got near said, "Oh, we can't allow you there." So, we stopped the march. They said, "We're not going
02:38:39 the march. They said, "We're not going anywhere until you allow us to march to finish our march where we wanted to," which is outside that police station. And in the end, the police had no choice but to allow us to march. So, that was that's one example I recall.
02:38:51 that's one example I recall. Um, what would stewards wear? Would they wear anything in particular? Uh sometimes they would wear high v ves or some some indication that it was stewards.
02:39:00 stewards. Would they wear hard hats?
02:39:07 Oh um [clears throat] that was once that was with uh with the unison lambbe unison. That's when that was kind of wearing hard hats was a kind it was when they beat up and killed one of black me
02:39:19 they beat up and killed one of black me Africans in Stockwell and they beat him on the head and and killed him on the streets and we uh we were we were hold the stewards and the union union
02:39:30 the stewards and the union union organized we were wearing hard hats as stewards
02:39:32 stewards that was
02:39:33 that was looking back at this document that was great. [clears throat] Paragraph three.
02:39:42 So that the one above starting the main topic. Thank you. The main topic of conversation revolved around how to deal with an intervention by the police. It is believed that the police would prefer the march to go
02:39:54 police would prefer the march to go quietly, but it is felt that those in command of the march have no control
02:40:03 command of the march have no control over the actions of individual officers. Certainly, the crowd will be encouraged to voice their anger and taunting and spitting at the police will be acceptable. However, MFJ do not want this event to descend into a riot, and
02:40:14 this event to descend into a riot, and although their outlook is by any means necessary, they believe that any escalation of violence would be counterproductive to their long-term aims. Is it accurate that MFJ intended to encourage the crowd to taunt and spit at the police? Was that
02:40:27 at the police? Was that I don't know what is this? This is a particular event they're talking about. Yeah. So this is the march um on the 6th of February I believe the civil rights march and this is a the steward's meeting about it on the 3rd of February 99.
02:40:39 99. So so yeah and we marched from Brixton to 10 Downing Street. Is that the one? Um if if that is the 6th of February 99 civil rights march I suppose I first do you recall this meeting?
02:40:51 you recall this meeting? Well what well the stewart's meeting for that month? Yes. I don't recall it specifically but we will have had one obviously. Um and the reference suggests that there was a suggestion that the crowd um would be
02:41:04 suggestion that the crowd um would be encouraged to taunt and spit at police. Do you recall that being mentioned at this meeting? No.
02:41:08 No. Is that something that MFJ might have done?
02:41:17 done? Telling people to spit at the police. Um I I we we made it very clear that the march would express collectively the anger we felt. Yes.
02:41:28 And then the final sentence um that MFJ did not want it to descend it into a um riot, but they believe that any escalator advance would be counterproductive to their long-term aims. Is that accurate?
02:41:41 their long-term aims. Is that accurate? I don't know what they mean by that. I just don't. If we [snorts] go to paragraph four.
02:41:51 Consequently, it was agreed that no matter no matter what individuals did, they would be supported. This means the stewards who were nearby any point of resistance would attempt to prevent any arrest while at the same time
02:42:04 arrest while at the same time communicating this information to the front of the march. MFJ accepts that any contact point may be volatile, but believe that the community must support
02:42:17 believe that the community must support persons victimized by the police. Again looking at the accuracy um
02:42:30 the suggestion that no matter what individuals did on the march they would be supported by the stewards to resist arrest is that accurate in terms of MFJ's approach. Okay that march I do remember that march that was excellent was hundreds and hundreds of people turned up.
02:42:41 people turned up. It was very militant. It expressed the anger and expressed its determination and marching for our community particularly from Brixton to
02:42:53 community particularly from Brixton to there. It was it was we had people from you know joining the march. We had people in the windows waving to us. It's like the Palestinian demonstrations you know you pass through your community. It was like a very big community event to exercise its right. And I just this
02:43:05 exercise its right. And I just this whole characterization about whether we um people weren't there. We the stewards were very clear that the the police wanted to undermine this the effectiveness of that march and we were
02:43:20 effectiveness of that march and we were clear we're not going to accept that and uh and we were going to protect the marches from many police attacks. It's a bit like a gaslighting event because that's the problem. They're gaslighting
02:43:37 that's the problem. They're gaslighting us and um of course and we would defend anyone that was being uh harassed or attacked on that march by police officers because we have a democratic right to march. And then um finally in this document the source comment at the end
02:43:58 in policing the event. It must be remembered that this is MFJ's day. They intend to control the street and not allow the police to control them. Yes. Is that an accurate reflection of MFJ's intention? In terms of this,
02:44:09 intention? In terms of this, we were we were decid Yeah. In one way, we were we were deciding that our march would go ahead in the way that we wanted and the community wanted and we weren't going to allow the police to to to
02:44:22 going to allow the police to to to frustrate our right to demonstrate for our community. And um the final part of the source comment on page two says Olardi will then move to the place of any untoward
02:44:38 then move to the place of any untoward event and assume control again. Is that an accurate um reflection of your role as steward? And if so, what would you have been doing? Okay, let me just ask a question about this whole thing because it's describing is this reporting they're reporting on on a steward's meeting that one of them
02:44:50 on a steward's meeting that one of them attended. I don't recall that's the way we speak, but clearly as as a main steward leader, if there was any problems, I'll be alerted and I'll go down as the main steward leader
02:45:02 I'll go down as the main steward leader to see what's happening and resolve it. Of course, it's not like we'd have a specific plan in this meeting. We'd say all this. This is what a lead steward would do.
02:45:12 would do. they're responsible for the whole of the march and their response and if something is happening and I'll get alerted from another steward there's a problem then usually we stop the march and I'll go down.
02:45:24 and I'll go down. Um [snorts] I'd like now to turn to your knowledge of David Hagen's involvement in any public uh disorder. If we please look at MPS05927
02:45:36 at B287 of MFJ's bundle.
02:45:48 Again, this is another of David Hagen's um intelligence reports. It's dated the 14th of May, 2001. So, you can see that it's near the end of his deployment. Yes. Uh and it's regarding an event to oppose the National Front March in
02:46:00 oppose the National Front March in Burmany. Oh yes. On the 12th of May. Does this accord with your recollection? Yes.
02:46:08 Yes. Um if we could look at paragraph three and four please.
02:46:17 The number of anti-fascist demonstrators present present never rose above 70 despite an earlier leafleting campaign by the ANL in an effort to drum up support from the local populace. Following the end of the event, MFJ and
02:46:30 Following the end of the event, MFJ and the Irish anarchists walked off together through one of the local estates whereupon they were confronted by a group of some 20 local fascist supporters. However, when the anti-fascists stood their ground, the youth thought better of the idea and
02:46:41 youth thought better of the idea and ran. Discussions were then held as to whether MFJ should leave the area or or continue on their chosen path. Brackets five or six members had already moved
02:46:56 five or six members had already moved off after the fascists fascists. Alex Orardi decreed that the group should retire gracefully, but this created a great deal of dissent from the more militant members. The departure from the scene was made admits much ill feeling
02:47:11 scene was made admits much ill feeling and a meeting will now be held in order that the MFJ leadership can better explain this controversial decision. However, some of the more street active individuals may not attend and have possibly been lost to MFJ.
02:47:23 possibly been lost to MFJ. You do all this um in your statement
02:47:35 You do all this um in your statement paragraphs 136 to 142. Yes. Uh, is this a refle um a report on the same event that you talk about in Burman? I think so. Yeah. And you talk about MFJ's aim to blockade the march which you say was successful. Yes.
02:47:45 Yes. You state at paragraph 140 of your winner statement that as the protest broke up, David Hagen and a few other MFJ members who were mostly black were joined by a few other members from the
02:48:00 joined by a few other members from the protest and a group of fascists ran into the housing estate where you were standing. Is that right? Yeah. I can't recall the mechanics, but we're in a situation where a small group of us from the anti-fascist mobilization was in the mi ended up in the middle of this estate. I don't know where they were and a group of um local fascists
02:48:16 were and a group of um local fascists came. So we had to stand our ground with them. They ran off and then then we had a discussion about what to do next. Thank you. Just pausing [clears throat] there looking at the second paragraph of this report.
02:48:28 this report. It suggests that five or six members of MFJ uh had um
02:48:39 had already moved off after the fascists. Do you recall if members of the um FFJ had Okay. So, so I don't know about the numbers 17. There may have been hundreds or what 100 or whatever. But I know there was a lot of people like I know there were there were trade union
02:48:53 there were there were trade union members from the local area there. There were some uh youth local youth. So none of them necessarily were members of the movement for justice but they were supporting the activity that we called. Um, I remember that situation where
02:49:07 Um, I remember that situation where after we managed to stand off the the attack from those 20 fascists and we had we were very small, we're isolated,
02:49:19 we were very small, we're isolated, we're broken off and we had a discussion and I just felt we had to retreat because we were in a very dangerous situation and people were leaving. Just to check though in the suggestion of the accuracy of this report saying that five or six members of MFG chased after the
02:49:32 or six members of MFG chased after the fascists do you recall that happening or I can't recall that but I know the fascists in the end we we were able to stand up and they they run off
02:49:45 stand up and they they run off uh you then talk about a discussion um being had about what to do. Can you please explain what then happened? Yeah, cuz I looked around and we were very
02:49:56 cuz I looked around and we were very isolated in this hostile area and so and we were actually from the main contingent. So I said we had to we had to retreat and go back to join where they are.
02:50:07 they are. And um what was David Hagen's reaction to that?
02:50:16 to that? I was quite taken back. He he started shouting, "No, we have to go after them. Blah blah blah blah. I'm a big coward." It was like a shock that I just turned around and said, "No, that's what we're going to do." Was it just David Hagen suggesting or there were no other members suggesting that?
02:50:29 that? And what did you understand his intention to be when he was suggesting chasing after the fascists?
02:50:35 We had a number of black people there and I just thought as a white man he didn't understand cuz if if we're in a situation where we're surrounded by a fascist he can walk off and melt into the background where the
02:50:53 and melt into the background where the black people can't. So I just thought it was this liberal racism um and that's it. It's only after I've heard about this realize what it is. But I just made it clear, no, we're we're going to we're going to retreat. And that's what we did.
02:51:02 did. And what did uh David Hayen then do?
02:51:10 And what did uh David Hayen then do? I think he did raise it in the meeting. He was the only one raised. It wasn't an issue for anyone else. Uh and he raised it and in the meeting, I can't recall it, but I'm assuming he raised it. But in the meeting, we' have just said what I've just said, and that would be the end of the matter. I'd
02:51:22 end of the matter. I'd at the time he suggesting we should run off of the fascists just as during the march. You said no, we should retreat. What did David Hag do? It wasn't dur wasn't during the after after the
02:51:38 after the we managed to to prevent the march or do whatever. And basically that was the end of that and it's kind of and the police were trying to was separating us off. So we were separated.
02:51:52 we were separated. We're in a situation. We were confronted by a group of young fascists. We managed to stand our ground there and then then they run off and because they knew we were going to fight them and defend ourselves and um and that's when this whole and I said look I looked around I said okay we need to get out of here because this is really dangerous and we're small and then um I'm trying to
02:52:05 we're small and then um I'm trying to I'm repeating it because it's obviously I'm sorry if I'm repeating the count but the only way to describe it is to go through that in that order and then yes
02:52:21 through that in that order and then yes and it I can't I I can't recall what he did. He may have come with us. I don't recall to be honest.
02:52:32 Um I think you say in uh your statement and I will um find the paragraph that he walked off in apparent disgust. Yes.
02:52:37 Yes. And you haven't seen him since. Is that correct? I Okay.
02:52:43 I Okay. He walked off in a big sulk. Mhm.
02:52:47 Mhm. And um he may have walked off. my wala and he says he was raised at the next meeting. That may be right. I'm not too sure when he left, but I think around after that you could tell he he was he
02:52:58 after that you could tell he he was he was he he was not going to stay around for that long. Um if we can look at um David Hagen's witness statement again, please at paragraph
02:53:07 paragraph 186, which is page 58.
02:53:21 He talks in this uh um I can't see it. Yeah, it's okay. I I I don't think we actually necessarily need it, but he talks about his withdrawal. Mhm. um
02:53:30 Mhm. um and that um it was planned in advance and he began to step back from the MFJ later in 2000,
02:53:42 later in 2000, making himself less available for meetings and showing less enthusiasm when he was there. So he seems to suggest it was a more gradual um may have been. Yeah, it may have. Do you recall? It may have been. Yeah.
02:53:54 recall? It may have been. Yeah. Do you recall David Hagen talking about moving to Ireland?
02:54:06 He may have said that but I don't recall. Do you recall um David T saying the reason why he left um movement for justice
02:54:11 justice some family issue I think okay
02:54:15 okay but some you know he wasn't at time a particular there's a number of people come into a movement a number of people for all sorts of reasons step down it's normal so it's not anything particularly
02:54:31 so it's not anything particularly special that I I'd sit and record but I think it's something to be family. I don't know. I want to move uh to talk about family justice campaigns. Yeah.
02:54:42 Yeah. And uh staying with um David Hagen's statement, can we go to page 32, paragraph 103, please?
02:54:47 please? And it goes into the next page.
02:55:01 So you can see here in responding to the inquiry's questions about the extent to which the MFJ took up the causes of particular families, he's looked at various um reports relating to the Sangal family and over the page it talks about the Thomas family, the Lewis
02:55:17 about the Thomas family, the Lewis family, Sylvester family, Natasha Sandon in aid of Sarah Thomas. Yes. and what he says at the end of that list.
02:55:34 In each case, I understood the MFJ had only a passing interest in the family and was more focused on using any campaign to [clears throat] further descent and grow its membership and influence. Is that an accurate
02:55:45 influence. Is that an accurate assessment of MFJ's approach to family justice campaigns? No. And I refer to what the point I made in my opening comment about these type of comments. One thing we all focused, we were fighting to win and we wanted to
02:55:57 we were fighting to win and we wanted to all those family campaigns, we wanted to do everything possible for them to win. Um, so if you could just elaborate please in general, what was MFJ's intentions or aims when it assisted with justice campaigns
02:56:13 justice campaigns to help build support so they could actually win? I mean, you know, these are people the people that were killed for whatever reason. They could have been they're so real to everyone, you know, just you they could be, you know, your sister or
02:56:27 they could be, you know, your sister or your brother, you know, that that's what they felt. And that's response particularly from the black and Asian community. These were like they're members of our own family. They could have been that because the the killings were so arbitrary. So, of course, we
02:56:39 were so arbitrary. So, of course, we wanted every one of those campaigns to win.
02:56:44 win. I want to look now specifically at the Steven Lawrence campaign. When and how did Movement for Justice
02:56:56 When and how did Movement for Justice become involved in supporting the Steven Lawrence family campaign? Okay. So
02:57:06 I I know that I think when this as soon as there was any marches I don't know when that started. It was obviously before the inquiry, but the marches um
02:57:13 um and [snorts] the public meetings that they called, we'd obviously go to them and encourage other people to go. Um, looking at paragraph 187 of your witness statement, you say, as with a number of groups, we supported the
02:57:27 number of groups, we supported the Steven Lawrence family following the murder of Steven Lawrence in 1993. Yes.
02:57:31 Yes. And you say at paragraph 205,
02:57:34 205, due to being involved in a similar case, Roland Adams, you've clarified that wasn't in fact with MFJ, but having campaigned on that case, it was a natural progression. Yes.
02:57:42 Yes. Is that right? That's correct. Yeah. Um,
02:57:49 Um, what did MFJ do to support the Steven Lawrence campaign? um attend meetings, attend protests when there were demonstrations, help mobilize to get people on.
02:58:05 people on. And at paragraph 188 of your statement, you say that soon after the Steven Lawrence murder, the first public meeting or demonstration was held which MFJ attended. Yes. Do you recall about when that was?
02:58:21 Do you think that MFJ supported the campaign and end attended demonstrations and um meetings from the murder in 93 all the way through to the inquiry 98 or do you think it was closer to the inquiry? [clears throat]
02:58:33 inquiry? [clears throat] I think I we can probably do a Google check on this, but I think there were I
02:58:45 check on this, but I think there were I don't know how soon after of the murder. Uh there must have been they they would have called a meeting or something and we were there as soon as we found out about it we would obviously turn up and and we had connections with people in the area through the Roland Adams campaign.
02:58:57 campaign. Looking at the time of the Steven Lawrence inquiry in 1998, it's right, isn't it, that movement for justice were active member of the Steven Lawrence family support group attending meetings and rallies with the monitoring group.
02:59:10 and rallies with the monitoring group. Do you recall that? Okay, it's very hard but there were there was a series of meetings around the inquiry which you had the Steven Lawrence family there and you had other monitoring groups and we were a part of that. So it was kind of they may have called the meeting and
02:59:22 they may have called the meeting and there was a coalition of groups who turn up. I think there was a several meetings during the course of the inquiry in the breaks you know in the lunchtime and
02:59:34 breaks you know in the lunchtime and stuff that we'd there'd be meetings. I'm not sure who actually called those meetings. Um, and do you recall if uh Dorene or Neville Lawrence attended the meetings of that public support group?
02:59:54 Um, may have. Now you said it, I probably assume, but they may have. Do you think they do you recall them being regular attendees of that group or or
03:00:03 or They may have. I mean, it's such a so much going on then. Um, [snorts] do you recall whether David Hagen was involved in those meetings and demonstrations?
03:00:19 demonstrations? Well, he he was involved in some of the demonstrations. He may have come to the meetings. Yeah, I but I can't say specifically. I'm sorry. And what was Movement for Justice's aim in involving itself in the Steven Lawrence campaign?
03:00:32 Lawrence campaign? To do everything possible for that. Okay. So, you had the campaign. So was it you talking about during the inquiry or just before the inquiry? Uh uh both.
03:00:46 Uh uh both. Yeah. Well, firstly was to make sure we could do mobilize everything as possible to make sure we get justice for for Steven. Um and the other thing was was uh to to to build support and protection for Dwayne Brooks as the surviving witness. He was
03:01:06 Brooks as the surviving witness. He was left by himself to handle and the police had this merciless campaign to to break him and we had very important that was our one of our priorities was to make
03:01:18 our one of our priorities was to make sure that Dwayne Brooks was protected by our movement and so he played the role that he he needs to play. I think we were uh the Steven Lawrence in uh inquiry and campaign it was about Steven Lawrence but it was a bit more than
03:01:29 Lawrence but it was a bit more than that. It was about the whole period that period of black people being death in custody and also racist attacks and the police basically covering them up. So
03:01:40 police basically covering them up. So the Steven Lawrence inquiry was more of a general thing and we felt that inquiry and the campaign that led to that inquiry was a real opportunity for the
03:01:55 inquiry was a real opportunity for the question of institutional racism to be aired to the whole nation and and it was it was a very important uh and it was a it was and that inquiry was the victory of the movement. We got
03:02:09 was the victory of the movement. We got that inquiry to happen. It wouldn't have happened unless the mobilizations and the struggles we went through including welling demonstration that led for the new Labor government had no choice But
03:17:44 in the presence of Dorian and Neville Lawrence. Do you recall if David Hagen would have been present for such a conversation? Uh, I don't recall or but I wouldn't be surprised if he was there. Again, would you recall if David H would have any input into these proposals?
03:18:03 have any input into these proposals? I don't recall any import but it was a it it was a consensus of the group of justice.
03:18:09 justice. Do you recall if David Hagen ever spoke to Dorian or Neville Lawrence directly? I don't recall that at all.
03:18:20 Uh could we please go to um David Hagen's witness statement page 46 paragraph 144?
03:18:44 Sirish Grover was already acting as a gatekeeper to the Lawrence family by the time MFJ tried to get involved in the Steven Lawrence campaign. I had almost no direct contact with him and only ever
03:18:56 no direct contact with him and only ever in the presence of other MFJ members. It was invariably Alex Oarde who had the onetoone s one-on-one conversations with Sirish Grover. It was invar
03:19:09 Sirish Grover. It was invar sorry as the reporting shows he was key to keeping the MFJ at arms length from the campaign and the Lawrence family thereby preventing them from having any significant influence. How would you describe your uh individual relationship with Sirish Grover?
03:19:22 with Sirish Grover? Um
03:19:24 Um um Cordial. Did you know him? I think I don't know if exactly, but you know, he he was well known as as as a an
03:19:39 know, he he was well known as as as a an activist anti-racist lawyer at the time. We called you a professional in a sense that
03:19:46 that so at the time it wasn't a um you weren't friends. It was a professional relationship between um relationship between activists. Yeah. And the same in terms of the monitoring group's relationship with movement for justice. Is was it the same?
03:19:58 justice. Is was it the same? Yeah. I know we I knew I still I knew some of the the activists and I was
03:20:11 some of the the activists and I was involved in the 80s and 90s particularly around the question of of a um the new age there were kind of um Asian youth that were being criminalized for defending them against attacks. So I knew there's a whole circle I knew all these people. We had political
03:20:22 these people. We had political differences but on uh um of course but when it comes to demonstrations we worked together so I knew I I don't know about I don't want to say something that is not true but I was aware of him but we had cordial relationships.
03:20:40 we had cordial relationships. Um do you recall if David Hagen ever spoke directly to Sirish Grover or Iran Khan um about the Steven Lawrence campaign? Um, I don't I didn't observe that. I don't recall observing it. We may have, but it's nothing to do obviously. I I can't confirm that.
03:20:54 confirm that. Um, could we please go to page 34, paragraph 107 of David Hagen's statement.
03:21:11 David Hagen says, "As for the report of the tension between Sirish Grover and Alexard that features in the report dated the 25th of January 1999, this is simply a reflection of the tension
03:21:25 simply a reflection of the tension between monitoring groups and real/MFJ. There was tension between the two individuals arising out of MFJ's attempts to make political capital out of Steven Florence campaign as well.
03:21:37 of Steven Florence campaign as well. I cannot now recall the specifics, but they could cooperate on occasions and I have read that at least one of my reports states that Mr. Grover privately sympathize with the MFJ position.
03:21:53 position. Um, firstly, how much influence do you consider MFJ had on the activities or tactics of the Steven Lawrence [clears throat] campaign? I have no idea. I have not I have no idea. You need to ask them that. Um, are you aware if David Hagen had any influence over those activities
03:22:08 influence over those activities or the tactics of the Steven Lawrence campaign?
03:22:10 campaign? Uh, no, you don't know or you don't think he did? Um, I don't know. I don't know if he did. I think you have to ask the campaign whether they recall him. He
03:22:23 campaign whether they recall him. He wasn't speaking on our behalf. I don't think if he did. Do you
03:22:27 Do you think it's accurate to suggest that Sirish Grover and Imran Khan protected the Lawrence family from MFJ getting too involved in the S Lawrence campaign? Um
03:22:42 Um I think Surish Ghana I think he was their solicitor wasn't he? Uh Sish Grover is the uh leader of the monitoring group.
03:22:58 monitoring group. Oh yes. Oh yes. Do you recall? Yes. Yes. Um but the suggestion you can see David Hagen is making is that um Sir Grover and Iran Khan protected the Lawrence family from MFJ getting too involved. Do you think that's accurate or not?
03:23:09 you think that's accurate or not? Um well they didn't stop us coming to the to the public meetings. I mean you have to ask him that. I mean this is his contention. I can't answer for what he is saying. He's describing
03:23:24 for what he is saying. He's describing that. So but what I know is we yeah we had political differences and um and they were discussed in the public meetings and whatever campaign meetings
03:23:36 meetings and whatever campaign meetings but we weren't excluded from anything I don't think. But I mean yeah. Do you recall uh there being any tension between movement for justice [clears throat] and the monitoring uh group particularly around the activities or the plan for the Steven Lawrence campaign or the inquiry?
03:23:47 campaign or the inquiry? Um not I can't recall specifically but there was the issue about calling a national demonstration in the break was a big issue and and and I think those groups were were on the side of not doing it
03:24:03 were on the side of not doing it and then we went ahead and done it. So that was the civil rights march we talked about. I see. And so the civil rights march was something that MFJ ended up doing independently. Yeah. Yes. Um if it was suggested that the tension between you and uh sorry movement for
03:24:17 between you and uh sorry movement for justice and the monitoring monitoring group maybe because MFJ wanted to be more militant in its approach to direct action with regards to the Stevens Lawrence campaign. What would you say?
03:24:30 Um
03:24:39 I I think the monitoring group and those groups because I I I was I became I was active becoming active during the 80s obviously and you had the uprisings and then after the [snorts] uprisings you had a lot of state funding and monitoring groups and law centers and stuff like that. And part of having
03:24:52 stuff like that. And part of having funding from the state is you can't be political. So there's that's a difference. That's why we were in we were independent. So we could be more political. We didn't
03:25:05 we could be more political. We didn't have to be cailed by the conditions of our grant. So that was the major difference between us and those organizations really.
03:25:18 organizations really. Um, if I could bring up MPS treble01120 at tab B43 of the MFJ bundle. And this is a David Hagen intelligence report dated the 4th of June 1998 regarding a
03:25:34 dated the 4th of June 1998 regarding a rally at the Stevens uh Steven Lawrence inquiry. Just looking at the final um paragraph of the source comment. Yeah,
03:25:40 Yeah, you see there, MFJ were pleased with their success at the Tuesday rally and are still intend on working with the Lawrence family campaign rather than attempting to take it over. [laughter] Is this a proper reflection of
03:25:51 Is this a proper reflection of what's what's it referring to? Um, well, it's talking about a rally at the Stevens Lawrence inquiry, but the point I'd draw to your attention is the suggestion that MFJ are still intent on working with the Lawrence family campaign rather than attempting to take
03:26:08 campaign rather than attempting to take it over. Do you think that's an accurate reflection of MFJ's intention regarding the campaign? We'll still in we'll still even if there was differences, we'll still be working together and obviously we're not trying to take it over. That's not possible. Um, if we could go back to David Hagen's
03:26:25 Um, if we could go back to David Hagen's witness statement, please. Um, paragraph 124. Do we have a page number?
03:26:41 Thank you.
03:26:54 While I attended events at which uh Mrs. Now Baroness and Mr. now Dr. Lawrence were present, I never spoke directly with either of them. I cannot recall the precise
03:26:57 precise So who is this? So this is David Hagen's witness statement. And then he says here, I cannot recall the precise number of occasions on which
03:27:09 the precise number of occasions on which I attended the inquiry's hearings, but I believe I was at or outside Hannibal House on a handful of occasions. I understand the McFersonson inquiry sat for 69 days, 59 of those at Hannibal House. I was not directed by anyone in
03:27:21 House. I was not directed by anyone in the SCS to attend either generally or on particular days. I believe I attended the hearing proper on two occasions. I sat with other MFJ members and we were probably inside for an hour or so each
03:27:33 probably inside for an hour or so each time. It was as much for them to have a break from demonstrating and leafletitting outside. The M MFJ were peripheral to the Steven Lawrence campaign and it was unsuccessful in its
03:27:44 campaign and it was unsuccessful in its attempts to direct or even influence the Lawrence family. How often did members of the MFJ attend the Steven Lawrence inquiry hearings? Do you recall?
03:27:56 you recall? Um usually because they're on uh they're on ongoing um and there will be a whole set of community people who will be going there nearly every day cuz it's during the day and people working and
03:28:10 during the day and people working and stuff like that or at school or college or university. So, um, we would find out if there was an issue like, you know, like there would be an issue where the the gallery formed
03:28:22 issue where the the gallery formed themselves into a group and I think there'll be issues like and we'd get report backs cuz there are community people we know. uh if there was an issue
03:28:33 people we know. uh if there was an issue where the police were trying to restrict some evidence that would expose them, there was some fight with the uh that the lawyers for the Lawrenes were having in that in that process or some issue,
03:28:47 in that in that process or some issue, we'd turn up for that to be honest. So, it was ferotic. Thank you. And you see what um David Hagen says here about his attendance. Do you recall how often David Hagen attended the inquiry hearings? No, but
03:29:03 attended the inquiry hearings? No, but he did because some of the inquiry scene we would have, you know, a protest outside.
03:29:05 outside. I'm sure he was there. And do you recall him going inside the hearing room to listen? He may have done. I I don't specifically recall that.
03:29:17 recall that. And do you recall him being outside protesting or leafinting?
03:29:24 protesting or leafinting? I I I've got some visual member that we were once outside cuz you know, Elephant Castle has the pink elephant then. It's all been identified now. and then the stairs have some visual evidence. But yes, I wouldn't be surprised.
03:29:36 yes, I wouldn't be surprised. And do you recall uh his attitude to attending those hearings? No.
03:29:39 No. Don't recall if he was keen and interested in different Sarah. I note the time. This would be a convenient point to uh pause for lunch if that is um
03:29:54 if that is um Let me finish this topic. Um no but there is quite a bit uh to go on it. Um I can carry on. I need to go toilet.
03:30:08 I need to go toilet. In that event uh that decides the issue. Don't worry. [laughter] We we we will start again at 52.