Alex Owolade - MFJ and Stephen Lawrence Protests

Full transcript

00:19:28 Good afternoon everybody. Uh this afternoon's proceedings will be uh transmitted but after a 10-minute delay. Those with recording devices may not use

00:19:40 Those with recording devices may not use them to record or photograph but may say what they've heard in the hearing room after 10 minutes have elapsed. Thank you sir. Um Mr. [clears throat] If we could go back to one point that you

00:19:53 we could go back to one point that you mentioned before the lunch break and you said that we got that inquiry to happen i.e. the Steven Lawrence inquiry. Can

00:20:04 i.e. the Steven Lawrence inquiry. Can you explain what you meant by that? um the mass movement that was mobilized, you know, led by the black and Asian community, you know, all the demonstrations, all the protests, all the things that all the different campaigns, the um the resilience of the Lawrence family,

00:20:16 Lawrence family, Dwayne Brooks, you know, just all all that factor. It was our inquiry. We got that inquiry to happen. So when you say that you mean

00:20:29 to happen. So when you say that you mean that there was a public campaign calling for the for this inquiry active campaign. Yeah. Various different groups involved in that.

00:20:36 that. Various different groups and also this was this was a movement that had individuals. I mean I was in Lambeirth Brixton and the whole community was

00:20:50 Brixton and the whole community was speaking about it and would do stuff. So it was a really whole community and activists and all the groups all together resulted in that inquiry taking place.

00:20:59 place. And do you recall how long you were campaigning for the inquiry to be called?

00:21:01 called? I don't recall that specifically. So for example, we know that Jack Straw called the inquiry in July 1997. So presumably it would have been before that.

00:21:11 that. Yeah. The Labor government because they just got elected, didn't they? I remember that that was part of their election com manifesto commitment that they were to call in public inquiry and

00:21:24 they were to call in public inquiry and it was in and then when they got elected there was a white paper or something with that in it. Thank you. Could we have up on screen MPS0149

00:21:38 tab B48 of the MFJ bundle. Uh this is an intelligence report dated the 26th of June 1998 regarding a meeting of the stewarding group for the Lawrence family support group. It's what it says.

00:21:54 it says. Um on the 25th of June 98, a meeting of the stewarding group for the Lawrence family support group was held at the Elephanton Castle to discuss tactics for the appearance of the five accused white youths at the inquiry on Monday the 29th

00:22:06 youths at the inquiry on Monday the 29th of June 98. It soon became apparent that Sirish Graver had lost control of the group. His favored tactics of everyone turning their backs on the five was met with dissent. Do you recall this meeting?

00:22:15 meeting? No.

00:22:17 No. Do you know if you were there? May have been. Uh do you recall ever hearing Sish Grover suggesting a tactic of turning their backs on the five as a way to protest?

00:22:34 as a way to protest? Not specifically. No. Sorry. Um,

00:22:40 if you look further down at that paragraph, it says, "Sensing a move to isolate them, MFJ has decided to meet on mass at 8 a.m. and therefore ensure

00:22:52 mass at 8 a.m. and therefore ensure their presence in the inquiry room. The possibility of disorder between the various factions over seating allocations cannot therefore be ruled out. In terms of their tactics for the accused, MFJ are quite happy to let the five enter the hearing and be

00:23:03 five enter the hearing and be questioned, but see their exit as the perfect chance to meet out some summary justice.

00:23:09 justice. Mhm.

00:23:19 Was it MFJ's intention to meet out some summary justice as the five suspects exited the inquiry? Okay, so two things. There had been a battle over extending the public gallery. so that people could from the

00:23:30 gallery. so that people could from the community particularly could could turn up. H and I know that the Lawrence legal team or something had

00:23:49 Lawrence legal team or something had made representations to to the judge and I think the um the group that was based on the kind of public gallery group of community people had made and in fact the decision was to reduce it on the day. So we know that was an issue and that people would want to come. So we have to how do we find a way to make sure those people were able to witness.

00:24:03 sure those people were able to witness. Now on the day I think what happened was when the five first turned up they were really contemptuous of the people there. They were walking in very cocky. They were laughing carrying on. Oh yeah. This

00:24:17 were laughing carrying on. Oh yeah. This is a breeze. And that was a provocation. And I think people felt there afterwards. Okay. Well, we need to make sure when you leave you don't have that kind of attit. So, people were very angry about the way that they were behaving.

00:24:30 behaving. Can I just go back to before the inquiry? So um in terms of plans for what the demonstration would be when the five attended the inquiry, it suggests in this report that the MFJ want to uh

00:24:50 in this report that the MFJ want to uh meet out some summary justice suggesting a plan that uh to physically attack the five.

00:24:57 five. Do you say that's accurate or not? What was MFJ's intentions uh for when the five attended the inquiry? mobilize as many people to to attend the inquiry to protest at the inquiry and also to uh so that was our

00:25:12 inquiry and also to uh so that was our main aim. We had to make sure that when the when the five murders arrived that the community was out there and making very clear what we felt but summary justice I don't know what that means but um

00:25:22 um uh making very clear how you felt how was it intended that MFJ would do that

00:25:31 by mobilizing them signs and and when they walked in to shout at them murderers some you know it wasn't a kind of we weren't going into detail but that's we needed to have mass presence

00:25:43 that's we needed to have mass presence specifically when the murderers turned up and we knew already uh and that there was going to be an issue about space for the public gallery. So we really wanted to make sure

00:25:55 sure uh that everyone who wanted to attend was able to attend. [snorts] Was it MFJ's intention to cause any public disorder during that demonstration when the five No, we have planned for that. The public disorder came from the police.

00:26:10 disorder came from the police. If it was suggested to you that MFJ saw the demonstration on the day the five suspects were due to attend as a golden opportunity to raise MFJ's profile. What would you say to that?

00:26:25 would you say to that? Well, whatever we're organizing, we want to raise our prof profile because what we believe needs to be done is we're genuine. So, yeah, I mean, everywhere we

00:26:37 genuine. So, yeah, I mean, everywhere we go, we're we're raising our profile. I I don't. So that's what we do. That's how you build your organization. Was that the main aim of the MFJ in uh demonstrating at the um Steven Lington? What would you say the main?

00:26:49 What would you say the main? My main aim was to to make sure the people that are responsible, the ordinary people um and that the truth was exposed

00:27:04 was exposed and the murderers were on trial and the police were effectively on public trial. Please may I have a document MPS treble01154 tab B49 of the MFJ bundle.

00:27:18 This is a David Hagen intelligence report about uh the attendance of the five suspects um at the Steven Lawrence inquiry on the 29th of June. You see paragraph one.

00:27:34 You see paragraph one. On Monday the 29th of June, between 500 and 600 protesters gathered outside Hannibal House to confront the five youths who were due to give evidence to the inquiry that day.

00:27:46 the inquiry that day. Foremost amongst the demonstrators were members of the movement for justice with Alex Olard to the four and also an uninvited and unwelcomed deputation from the Nation of Islam. Do you agree that

00:27:58 the Nation of Islam. Do you agree that MFJ members, including yourself, were at the forefront of the demonstration? Yeah. Well, well, we were with the demonstration. Yeah. I mean, it was it was around the stairs. So, there the

00:28:10 was around the stairs. So, there the police told us the police had lines from uh all the way uh so the five were escorted and we were around the outside. Yeah. Yep. That's what Yep.

00:28:23 That's what Yep. And can you describe [clears throat] the atmosphere on that day amongst the protesters? We were very angry especially when they started walking in and the way they were behaving you know um you know I don't know how to describe

00:28:36 um you know I don't know how to describe it was just complete contempt and people were shouting murderers and we were probably shouting that as well. Yep. It's great. It was really

00:28:44 could we go to paragraph two please.

00:28:51 During the previous day's planning meeting, MFJ had decided to exploit the fact that more people would be attending the hearing than could possibly be given access to the inquiry chamber. Consequently, when word came that the

00:29:04 Consequently, when word came that the chamber was full and that no one else would be granted entry, leading MFJ personnel who had spread out amongst the crowd began to agitate the crowd by demanding entry.

00:29:16 demanding entry. Alex Olardi was particularly viciferous in his demands to be granted access to the chamber. With a short space of time, the MFJ had successfully built up the crowd's anger and were in complete control of the noisy demonstration

00:29:29 control of the noisy demonstration taking place at the entrance to Hannibal House.

00:29:29 House. Yeah.

00:29:34 Yeah. Um first of all, you uh have mentioned that the that you knew about um the potential for there not to be enough space in the room beforehand. Yeah, we were informed specifically about from the um the group that that was in the

00:29:48 the um the group that that was in the public gallery group. They were telling us that was an issue. I think it was publicly there was an issue was in the various campaigns that there was going to be a problem. So we decided we had to have a duty to make sure that we got

00:30:02 have a duty to make sure that we got that decision reversed and that they and we knew a lot of people were going to return up and that knew that they had a right to be there and face and those murders need to face us and we need to hear. So yes, so we we did I remember

00:30:14 hear. So yes, so we we did I remember specifically that was one of the things what how can we get the will of the people that are going to turn up to actually be satisfied which is entry into the public inquiry. Yeah.

00:30:33 into the public inquiry. Yeah. And um do you agree that MFJ personnel agitated the crowd by demanding entry and if so how did MFJ do that? Okay. So what happened was um there was a big it's a crowd. We're [clears throat] inside the building. So it was a big I don't know um it was it

00:30:46 it was a big I don't know um it was it was elephant cars shopping. It was a big building. So and the uh the inquirer was on the first floor and there was a big queue literally hundreds of people waiting to get in and they suddenly

00:30:59 waiting to get in and they suddenly announced that oh there's no more room and then at some point I think the Nation of Islam had raised with the judge or something that people are outside waiting to come in it's not

00:31:10 outside waiting to come in it's not right and then they were pepper spayed in front of us by the police and so [clears throat] yes u I remember me specifically at the front and we led the chant

00:31:19 chant let us in. Let us in. And we kept that chant going and then um someone from the inquiry came out and whatever and I was

00:31:33 inquiry came out and whatever and I was at the front leading the chant and spoke to me and I said I said we're not this we can't we're not going and we're not going to stop cuz it was obviously just the inquiry couldn't start and we said well you let us in and inquiry could

00:31:48 well you let us in and inquiry could start and they went back and we carried on with our chanting and And the next movie we announced that they were going to open a big it was a big shopping used to be like a big like a supermarket

00:32:01 to be like a big like a supermarket empty space and they opened it up with us and they had audio cameras or whatever and we all went in there and we could see the whole inquiry which obviously they could have done in the first place. Obviously took half an hour

00:32:13 first place. Obviously took half an hour to set up. So it was very successful. It was a very successful intervention from us. we were able to to get the crowd to act collectively and win our demands. So I was very it was I was one of the proud one of the proudest moments of that

00:32:29 one of the proudest moments of that period that I feel personally and what movement of justice did. Can we go to paragraph three please?

00:32:42 Page sorry page two paragraph three. So I'm answering your questions not on the basis of how it's posed here. Do you understand that? Yeah. Thank you. At the height of the disturbances as described above. The Nation of Islam contingent emerged from the inquiry building and took up a thoroughly menacing stance as if stewarding the

00:32:54 menacing stance as if stewarding the protesters. Then when matters had calmed down, they attempted to re-enter the building only to be denied access. It was at this point that the trouble started up once more and resulted in the police resorting to the use of CS gas in their efforts to restore order. I know

00:33:10 their efforts to restore order. I know you've mentioned the use of CS gas. Oh yeah, gas. But is this is an accurate description of how that came about? No, I I I don't cuz the Nation of Islam were there.

00:33:22 were there. Mhm. Uh um but I I know they had been in and had come out. I didn't know what they were doing, but all we saw was when the nation is out and and there were be we there was them by the entrance. There

00:33:40 we there was them by the entrance. There was a big police line with us and us and then suddenly we know the the police were spraying CS spray on on these people.

00:33:41 people. Know what it was that prompted the use of CS spray? No.

00:33:54 Um, at paragraph 102 of your witness statement, we don't need to get it up, but you say, um, firstly, the public inquiry had been set up following the mobilization led by the black community calling for a public quarry into Steven's murder and any disorder that stemmed would have come from the

00:34:08 stemmed would have come from the decisions of the chair andor the actions of the police. Yes, that's correct. So looking at the first part, why do you say that public disorder was due to the decisions of the chair?

00:34:23 Okay. Public disorder in that sense would be

00:34:26 would be the police's

00:34:32 restraining the people there. So any any Okay, let me what I would say. So I start again. It's one of these things where you got

00:34:44 It's one of these things where you got to say something on the premise of what the truth is rather than what the question is implied. Any disorder that's ever happened has been the result of the police's action. I think the judge created the disorder

00:34:59 I think the judge created the disorder of having a chant and chanting letters in and mobilizing if that's called disorder. We were disrupting quite rightly the inquiry process by turning

00:35:11 rightly the inquiry process by turning the RQ into a demonstration demanding to be let in. That could be described as disorder obviously and it was very effective because the inquiry had to negotiate and and concede. And I think

00:35:26 negotiate and and concede. And I think that that that disorder of disruption to inquiry was entirely the responsibility to the judge who decided to limit the amount of members of the public that could attend when the five were due to reappear. So they're responsible for that.

00:35:36 that. And then at paragraph 94 of your witness statement, it states that you recall pushing and shoving. However, this was instigated by the police. Oh, yeah. We were pushed and shoved by the police. Yeah. So why do you uh say

00:35:51 the police. Yeah. So why do you uh say that that was started um by the police? Cuz they they started it. Do you know why? Cuz they wanted to um to to basically wanted to clear us out.

00:36:02 wanted to clear us out. Could we go to um page paragraph five and six, please?

00:36:10 The end of the day's proceedings saw a group of around 50 protesters attempt to attack the five white youth as they left the hearing. A number of missiles were thrown at the youth and all five were

00:36:21 thrown at the youth and all five were liberally covered in spittle by the time they reached the sanctuary of the waiting van. The MFJ took a lead role in this final onslaught, though they they

00:36:33 this final onslaught, though they they did not need to orchestrate the crowd to act as they did. This final attack was much against the wishes of Neville Lawrence, who had earlier asked that no further trouble take place. However, there was an approximate 50/50 split in the crowd between those in favor of the family's consilary approach and those

00:36:51 family's consilary approach and those who supported the MFJ's policy of direct opposition, and it was the latter group who sought to attack the youth. So, is it accurate that MFJ members took a leading role in attacking the five by throwing missiles and spitting at them? Oh, we didn't throw any missiles. But

00:37:04 Oh, we didn't throw any missiles. But what is true about that? Um, what I can say is is

00:37:10 say is is after the behavior of the five when they went in,

00:37:12 went in, people were mobilized and so people turned out. There was more than 100. There was hundreds of people turned up. Literally hundreds and hundreds.

00:37:29 hundreds. uh and they were going to make sure that when they left that they weren't going to be thinking they can walk out with such contempt. And I remember at the time it uh was and it was one of those things where it was spontaneous in one sense and but I completely support what they did and I was very happy. I mean you see the pictures and them coming

00:37:46 you see the pictures and them coming out. I mean that's something that a lot of people who have fought for justice really felt that picture really is something they look at and say yeah. Yeah. See, so and and I I don't know if they were spitting. I wasn't that close, but um

00:37:58 spitting. I wasn't that close, but um but I know there was a fruit market and some of they're not there now. Some of the fruit things were handing over like tomatoes and stuff. Yes.

00:38:04 Yes. Um

00:38:11 Um except that there was even if it wasn't MFJ people spitting or throwing things at

00:38:17 at I don't know about spitting people were shouting at them. I know some people had some fruit were throwing fruit at them but that was you know it was do you consider that that action to be justified? Um

00:38:26 Um yes.

00:38:32 yes. Do you recall what um David Hagen was doing

00:38:35 doing on that day or whether he was part of the disorder? [sighs]

00:38:44 It was very chaotic on that day. So when it happened at the end, um I don't know, he could have been there.

00:38:51 Um and [snorts] then the first paragraph on page three, please.

00:39:03 Uh and it says at the request of the family, MFJ had agreed not to attend this day's hearing, although a small number of them did put in a brief appearance during the morning. So that's about the [snorts] following day, the next day that uh the five were due to

00:39:15 next day that uh the five were due to attend. This report suggests that the Lawrence family have asked you not to attend. Do you recall that? No.

00:39:39 MFJ were ultimately given permission, weren't they, to that that that document could come down. Thank you. Um were ultimately given per permission to make submissions to the Steven Lawrence inquiry on the 15th of October 199. That's correct. Yeah.

00:39:53 That's correct. Yeah. And you've um provided that submission. You don't need to um bring it up, but it's UCPI 50-38664 tab A2.

00:40:00 tab A2. Did David Hagen have any involvement in writing that submission? I don't recall that. Now, do you recall if David Hagen saw the submission prior to it being uh given to the inquiry?

00:40:16 the inquiry? Well, he may have because because the submission when we drafted it would have um gone through it with our members. So, you would have gone through it during a meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. I don't recall Pacific, but that's what we'd do. We wouldn't and then we and I think we we would it

00:40:28 and then we and I think we we would it would be public it'd be issued publicly immediately as well. We circulate copies before the um before we're due to to testify.

00:40:44 testify. Can we please have an MPS treble01832 tab B 108 of the MFJ bundle, please?

00:40:57 This is an intelligence report again David Hagen about an MFJ meeting on the 25th of February 1999 to discuss the outcome of the Lawrence inquiry. If we look at paragraph two,

00:41:11 essentially MFJ are of the opinion that the police through the findings of the inquiry have lost their remit to police the black community. They hope that this will engender a much greater confrontational stance by the blacks and

00:41:28 confrontational stance by the blacks and in effect aid MFJ's attempts in creating a don't walk by approach in dealings with them. Is this an accurate reflection of the MFJ's view on the findings of the inquiry and the resulting behavior on the basis of the black community which were part of from the 80s they'd

00:41:46 which were part of from the 80s they'd already lost that consent from us they had a right to police us cuz that our experience of police of policing was was harassment brutality so they'd lost that remit. I think the main thing uh just

00:42:04 remit. I think the main thing uh just thinking about what the outcome of that public inquiry did was it

00:42:06 it it was the example if you asked after the public inquiry some little village up somewhere in the north or somewhere in the country far away from London or

00:42:21 in the country far away from London or major city and asked them if the police were institutional races racist those people would say yes and we won that that our experience had was publicly acknowledged. So that's one of the main things that came out of that inquiry. Uh on the other thing it it is yes. So

00:42:39 on the other thing it it is yes. So don't walk on by would be um people feel more you know more confident more confident to to actually do that to to when they see particularly black youth being harassed by police on the street to to to do the don't walk on by

00:42:51 to to to do the don't walk on by program. Yeah. So all of those things, the public inquiry was such a it gave us a confidence that we could assert our rights, that we could

00:43:08 rights, that we could we could challenge when we're being discriminated and it also put the police on a defensive which was useful and stop and search really kind of I know in

00:43:22 search really kind of I know in Lambbeirth reduced so much directly. You felt much more safer walking down the street if there was police officers there. Cuz before if you would if police officers there, you just automatically think you try not to catch their eye cuz you think, "Oh god, they're going to stop me in a minute and I'm going to be

00:43:33 stop me in a minute and I'm going to be searched in the middle of the street in front of people." So yes, I've been asked to make it abundantly clear in terms of the don't walk on by policy, was it ever MFJ's suggestion that people should physically interfere

00:43:48 that people should physically interfere with police officers, as in touch them? No.

00:43:51 No. Push them, assault them. No, thank you. Um, could I please have that MPS 0721973

00:43:58 tab B321 of the MFJ bundle?

00:44:13 Could we go to page three and the final paragraph? These are notes of the meeting with David Hagen from the 9th of October 2013.

00:44:26 October 2013. Says here, Dorene and Neville splitting up. I can't really remember where it came from. So, this is David Hagen speaking.

00:44:34 speaking. I think Dwayne told the MFJ. I think I reported on it. Not to put hat into the system seems ridiculous to me. It was before Ripper. I believe it should be intelligence. What's Ripper? Uh it's um the um uh the act that escapes me at the moment.

00:44:48 act that escapes me at the moment. Regulation [laughter] of investigatory powers act. Thank you. Um I believe it should be intelligence. It is relevant. The MFJ were going to try and exploit it. The MMFJ believed they might be able to

00:44:59 MMFJ believed they might be able to target Neville after they'd split up. These are my thoughts. It was relevant. Under Ripper, it may not happen now as

00:45:15 Under Ripper, it may not happen now as it would be sanitized. All intelligence is good. Do you recall Dwayne Brooks informing you or anyone in MFJ that Dorian and Neville Lawrence had separated or divorced? Absolutely not. Were MFJ interested in the status of their relationship? I think the only time we got aware of it when it became public and

00:45:34 when it became public and we fell for them because that's a lot of fighting for justice like that takes a lot out of family relationships, you know. So it was really um really um yep that was our approach when we found

00:45:46 yep that was our approach when we found out like with everyone else. I we didn't have direct contact with those two people and I know Dwayne at that time didn't have direct contact with Doran and Neville. So I don't you know and we didn't discuss ever personal issues. We we

00:45:59 discuss ever personal issues. We we don't discuss that but the personal issues of people like that anyway. And David Hagen suggests that you were going to try and exploit this information to

00:46:10 to try and exploit this information to target Neville Lawrence. What do you say about that? I mean, obviously, well, we didn't know and we didn't we we didn't divulge it because we didn't know. We weren't aware like everyone else. And as I said, we saw

00:46:21 everyone else. And as I said, we saw that as being something as as a as a a thing that's happens when people are under a lot of pressure. It was sad. [clears throat]

00:46:33 [clears throat] Do you recall when you became aware of their divorce or separation? No, but it was kind of I think I don't recall. I'm not going to guess. I think it was some it was made some public thing. It may have been something in in

00:46:46 thing. It may have been something in in the Daily Mail or the Sun or something. I don't know. It just became Could we please show up MPS01212

00:46:55 at tab B54 of MFJ bundle?

00:47:11 This is an intel report about a meeting organized by the Lawrence Family Support Campaign on the 20th July 1998. And there's a reference in this report to you being in attendance at this meeting. At the conclusion of this meeting, it's reported that Sir Grove spoke with

00:47:28 reported that Sir Grove spoke with members of MFJ and other. If we could go to page three, paragraph two. Who's who's who's this report from? This is David Hagen's report again.

00:47:43 And you'll see the second half of uh that um paragraph. It says Sirish went on to explain that Dorian and Neville have in reality separated and that they only continued together as a front for the campaign. Dorian in fact wishes to wind the campaign up at the point and simply await the findings of the

00:47:57 simply await the findings of the inquiry. Neville is more open to continuing but only until the inquiry releases its finding. So this uh report suggests that Sirish Grover may have um informed uh

00:48:14 Sirish Grover may have um informed uh MFJ and others at this the end of this meeting about it. Does this do you recall this? Well, he's saying at a public meeting that sir said that I do um do you recall that? No.

00:48:28 No. And lastly, can I draw your attention to another section, page three, paragraph 4.

00:48:40 Um, so it says, "As can be seen, Sirish had fully calmed down by this stage and apologized to Alex for his actions. He then proceeded to give out tickets to everyone who was left, including the MFJ and privacy. He stated that he was of

00:48:52 and privacy. He stated that he was of the same politics as Alex and personally wanted a huge demonstration as soon as possible. He also said that there was someone very close to the Lawrence family who was on an uncle Tom and as a police agent was actively advising the Lawrenes against any real action. Do you recall anything about

00:49:09 recall anything about what can you just do the sentence before uh the paragraph before it says as it can be seen fully calm down at this stage? I don't understand. I think there's a suggestion in the report um that there was tension but for the purpose of this question I don't think it's important. It's the second bit.

00:49:23 bit. Okay. uh he referred to someone as an uncle Tom and as a police agent who was actively advising the Lawrenes against any real action. Do you recall anything about this being uh told to you?

00:49:34 about this being uh told to you? Not not specifically from him, but there were a number of people I saw that were like officials and stuff from the home office as

00:49:47 as I don't know what they were advising them to do. the people from there were speaking to the Lawren's. I I don't know. No, to be honest, I'm I'm just saying I imagine I think there was some people from the home office. I don't know what they were saying, but

00:49:59 don't know what they were saying, but no, I I I I don't recall that at all. I don't um

00:50:05 don't um I think what I do recall is Surish and some of the other people did say they they supported the our demand that there should be a call for a national demonstration in the break.

00:50:17 demonstration in the break. Uh, [snorts] moving on now to ask you about Dwayne Brooks. Yeah.

00:50:24 Yeah. As I understand it, you first met Dwayne [clears throat] Brooks. Um, where do you in fact where do you recall first meeting Dwayne Brooks? Yeah. Um, uh, we attended the hearing. I think it was before the murderers turned up.

00:50:36 up. So, when you say the hearing at one point, we're in the in the waiting room and uh, there was a young black guy sitting at the back all by himself. So I went over and introduced myself and he he

00:50:48 over and introduced myself and he he said he was Dwayne Brooks. I had heard verbally about break a person called Dane Brooks that was there and then when he described who he was we just felt you know that's when I first met him and said to him okay

00:51:05 said to him okay I understand Mr. Brooks recalls meeting you earlier than the inquiry. Do you do you are you sure that it was at the inquiry or perhaps could have he may be right but that's what I remember any you recall meeting him substantively at the inquiry I remember when I first met him

00:51:20 I remember when I first met him I was really oh you're Dwayne Brooks and then I realized and he started telling me what was happening to him and I was just so astonished and I was so you know I said right you know so I don't know

00:51:32 I said right you know so I don't know that's what I might recall if he recalls me meeting someone before it's such a long time ago He could be right. Um [snorts] MFJ began supporting Mr. Brooks during the inquiry and during his subsequent court cases. Is that right? That's right. Yeah.

00:51:46 That's right. Yeah. And those court cases involved an unsuccessful uh criminal prosecution of him in late 1999 and a civil claim he brought against the Metropolitan Police in March 1999. Is that correct? Yeah.

00:52:00 in March 1999. Is that correct? Yeah. Um Mr. Brooks also became involved in MFJ's activities at the time. Is that right?

00:52:02 right? Yes. at some points. Yeah. Uh what involvement or role did he have in the MFJ? Well, when we'd be organizing demonstrations in support of him at court hearings and stuff like and

00:52:13 court hearings and stuff like and protest, he attended the the civil rights demonstration with other people and spoke at I think that might be wrong at the uh at the end of the march at

00:52:27 at the uh at the end of the march at Downing Street. Um yeah, he was involved in lot of our public campaigns. Yeah. And did his involvement with Emry come to an end at any point? And if so, do do you recall when?

00:52:40 you recall when? I think I mean as always there was a as things from the 2000s as things were settled, people moved on. We we had a lot of people

00:52:53 lot of people moved on and did things and went their own way. Uh we've always been cordial and friendly with each other. Um could I have up on the screen MPS0721973

00:53:04 please? Can I just say one thing he did do which was really is when I was sat for Lamb's council speaking out against racism as part of this we had uh public hearings in the town hall and he came and sat

00:53:18 in the town hall and he came and sat with uh at the uh with me in the public hearings. He was there he very uh yeah very moving. He was he made

00:53:30 uh yeah very moving. He was he made he he was very supportive cuz he knew yeah that was very I I I'll always be grateful for what he did at that time.

00:53:44 time. Thank you. Um, please have MPS 0721973 tab B 321

00:53:46 tab B 321 page 4 paragraph 1 please

00:53:59 see there Dwayne Bale conditions. I never saw it as my role. This is again a meeting notes um with David Hagen. Okay, great.

00:54:12 Okay, great. Dwayne Braille conditions. I never saw it as my role to be interested in DB. He used the MFJ. I wasn't interested in We were mates but I never cultivated him. But he he's saying he was mates with Dwayne Brooks. Yes. Um he latched on to me to be honest. I'd forgotten he had a case. I can't remember the points of his case. I had too much else to do.

00:54:24 had too much else to do. And um we don't need to bring it but in his statement to the inquiry at paragraph 140. Um David Hagen says, "I have a sense of liking him, so we must have had some dealings." Um

00:54:36 have had some dealings." Um do you recall David Hagen and Mr. Brooks being friends? No.

00:54:39 No. What was the extent of their interaction? I I I don't think there was uh some of the demonstrations he was holding plaqueards. He might said hello and you

00:54:52 plaqueards. He might said hello and you have to ask Dwayne Brooks that I didn't see

00:54:53 see from your observations. No, I didn't see anything significant there. No. Do you recall if David Hagen seemed particularly interested in getting to know Mr. Brooks?

00:55:04 know Mr. Brooks? No.

00:55:05 No. or uh whether David Hagen seemed particularly interested in finding out information about Mr. Brooks. [clears throat]

00:55:18 Well, he um well, I can't tell what he's interested in. All I can say from your observations observation, I mean he attended our meetings and we had

00:55:30 he attended our meetings and we had demonstrations at court hearings where where uh Dwayne was um was due to to appear.

00:55:36 appear. But it is no more interest to be honest than all the other members. I don't. And in and around the time of [clears throat] Mr. Brooks's um court cases, what was your relationship with Mr. Brooks?

00:55:51 Oh. Um uh

00:56:04 a deep friendship and a deep comradeship on at that moment that I had a deep respect for him and and the community had because of what he's gone through and what and the

00:56:18 what he's gone through and what and the strength that he's shown despite by the persecution he received, a deep respect for for Dwayne. And in fact, to be

00:56:32 for for Dwayne. And in fact, to be honest, out of the whole Steven Lawrence issue, he was key. If it wasn't for him being surviving witness, we wouldn't have known what had happened. And if it wasn't for him being surviving witness, we wouldn't have got the two people

00:56:43 we wouldn't have got the two people finally sent down to prison. I was at the hearing. He was he was very much felt that our support was so important

00:56:54 felt that our support was so important to him. There's a trust between us and the organization. During this period, would you have discussed Mr. Brooks's legal proceedings with him?

00:57:05 with him? Uh the only only thing we'd talk about would be um when the court hearing is, but on the on his legal case, no. Um would you have discussed any

00:57:16 would you have discussed any confidential or privileged advice given to Mr. Brooks by his lawyers? I mean between you and him personally. No, that was um I mean that was that's to do with his own legal team. We our our our our support for him over his legal cases weren't over the legal

00:57:28 legal cases weren't over the legal questions was to to show the court or the jury how much support he had by by turning up and having the protest and

00:57:40 turning up and having the protest and turn and and and u filling the public galleries. And would um any of the information relating to confidential legal advice given to Mr.

00:57:52 given to Mr. about his cases ever have been discussed in front of other MFJ members or in meetings

00:58:01 meetings cuz none of the contro none of the um confidential advice was devised to any of us. So we wouldn't we wouldn't be able to discuss it. Do you recall if David Hagen would have ever have been privy to any such discussions about confidential privileged

00:58:15 privileged not via us we might have got it through some other quarter. Uh, so in terms of your discussions with Mr. Brooks, for example, do you remember in sort of late 2000 discussing with Mr. Brooks the settlement he was being offered in his civil case with the police?

00:58:29 civil case with the police? I don't know what he's the settlement was.

00:58:35 was. Do you recall talking to Mr. Brooks about the settlement and the figure he was being proposed? No. All I all I remember about this suing, I was really glad he was suing and I and I was really glad I didn't know I wouldn't I didn't know the

00:58:50 know I wouldn't I didn't know the details of the settlement, but I was really glad that he was successful. Yeah.

00:58:54 Yeah. Um, do you recall discussing with Mr. Brooks the settlement that Dorian or and Neville Lawrence were Can I ask you is this is this being is there something in here saying that I should know this while you No, no. Simply um I'm going to bring up some reports in terms of what um David

00:59:07 some reports in terms of what um David Higgins recorded in his um reports and my question to you will be where do you know where he got this information uh from? If we bring up for example MPS zero 2915

00:59:20 zero 2915 tab B195.

00:59:27 So this is another um bit. If you go to paragraph two, this is a report of David Hagens again dated 3rd of February 2000. And it says that it's believed that the police are

00:59:41 that it's believed that the police are contesting the fact that the case is out of time more than 3 years. But Brooks's lawyer's advice that this can be disregarded considering the precedent set by the Lawrenes. The February hearing will address the issue of whether the case should proceed and if successful will proceed in the autumn.

00:59:57 successful will proceed in the autumn. Do do you are you aware how David Hagen may have got this information? No. And I wasn't aware there was an issue of out of time. I was first off to seen it just now because obviously I read some of his statement but it was very long and tur.

01:00:11 very long and tur. Um can we please have up MPS treble02448?

01:00:24 Another David Hagen report dated the 17th of September 1999. If we go to paragraph

01:00:25 paragraph two,

01:00:32 you'll see fundamental to MFJ's activities will be the civil case brought by Dwayne Brooks against the Metropolitan Police for racial discrimination during the Steven Lawrence investigation. Brooks is a

01:00:44 Lawrence investigation. Brooks is a follower, not a member of the MFJ, and his hardening political attitude owes much to his association with Alex Olardi, who has been instrumental in persuading Brooks to undertake this course of action. Is that accurate?

01:00:56 Is that accurate? I don't recall having a Pacific conversation with him, saying that he should sue the police. I don't think he I think he was going to do that anyway, but I think I you know, I'm just saying his decision to sue the police

01:01:09 his decision to sue the police in part was because he felt he had support and he feels strong and you know he was in a position all the stuff we

01:01:20 he was in a position all the stuff we were able to do to give him to make feel he's as strong as possible and

01:01:23 and yeah

01:01:28 yeah turning to the unsuccessful prosecution of Mr. Brooks for some serious criminal charges in late 1999. You'll be aware that these proceedings were stayed as an abuse of process in March 2000. I rais

01:01:40 abuse of process in March 2000. I rais this as I want to ask some very specific questions about David Hagen's reporting on these proceedings. If we could have up MPS02455 at tab B 163 of the MFJ bundle, please. Again, it's a David Hagen intelligence

01:01:59 Again, it's a David Hagen intelligence report dated the 24th of September 1999. If we look at paragraph two, it describes

01:02:04 describes So, can I stop you now? Um, what are you going to read out from that? You know, there's some confidentiality issues. Let me um ask the question. So, this paragraph describes um Brooks's version

01:02:19 paragraph describes um Brooks's version of events, but it's the final paragraph. For the purpose of this question, um uh the uh rest of the paragraph is not relevant, but the final sentence says MFJ is seeking to ratify this version and to try and discredit the alleged victim.

01:02:33 victim. Was there any attempt by MFJ to discredit the alleged victim? No. In fact, I uh we our our position was publicly and also in the court where that victim Cosby would would come was

01:02:47 that victim Cosby would would come was that she uh that person was a victim as well being used by the police. Were there um [clears throat] any um attempts by MFJ or efforts to confirm

01:02:58 attempts by MFJ or efforts to confirm the account of what had happened with the alleged victim? No. To this day, I don't know who the person is. In

01:03:09 In pardon. Oh, could we take that um paragraph down, please? At paragraph 173 of your statement, you refer to making a public statement as the leader of MFJ saying the complainant

01:03:20 the leader of MFJ saying the complainant was a victim as well. Yeah. And that she was being used by the police. Yeah. Abused by the police. Abused by the police. Um what's the factual basis for you saying that?

01:03:35 because the police were conducting a campaign to criminalize and and uh to criminalize and to persecute Dwayne to discredit him.

01:03:51 to discredit him. And it was very clear. Yes. and the fact that the case was thrown out,

01:04:03 that the case was thrown out, it was clear. But I I felt that the I we just felt we wanted to make sure that there will be no obviously people know

01:04:17 there will be no obviously people know if you know Dwayne Brooks and someone uh is involved with the police blahy blahy blah. We want to make sure no all the people that are being dragged into risk then we we should not be have a hostile attitude towards them. If we can look at um MPS02590

01:04:40 tab B 166 of the MFJ bundle. Again another a David Aen Hagen intel report regarding a protest at Dwayne Brooks's

01:04:43 Brooks's criminal proceedings. Yes. Um,

01:04:46 Yes. Um, page one, paragraph one talks about approximately 40 people joined in the vigorous protests outside the court, 10 of whom were attracted as passers by.

01:04:58 of whom were attracted as passers by. How would you describe the protest that you had at um, it was great. Was there any suggestion of MFJ causing any public disorder at any of the

01:05:11 any public disorder at any of the hearings relating to Brooks's criminal or civil proceedings? No. and we and and we'd have a demonstration outside the hearing and then when the hearing started we go into the public gallery.

01:05:29 Um, paragraph three, just the final um, sentence please, from MFJ will be pushing for the case to go to Crown Court.

01:05:45 And you will see here uh, the final part as the alleged victim is a member of the same church congregation and she is coming under pressure from church leaders to withdraw her allegations. Are you aware of any pressure being put on the alleged victim from church leaders? I I don't know the name or the

01:05:58 I I don't know the name or the or I don't know the name. I don't know what this person looks like. I don't know whe what religion she is or not. None of us knew that.

01:06:10 None of us knew that. Do you know if David Hagen was involved in putting any uh pressure on the alleged victim?

01:06:19 Not to my knowledge, but I mean is he saying this information came from me or us?

01:06:24 us? It's simply what he stated in his report and I'm simply asking if from your knowledge whether it is accurate. I have no knowledge of this. Uh there would be he couldn't have got it from us because we didn't know that information if that's correct.

01:06:40 information if that's correct. And then paragraph 4 um from MFJ are therefore much more buoyant than for some time. [snorts] They have staked a lot on Brooks and now see the distinct possibility that all charges against him will be dropped making him appear to be the victim of

01:06:58 making him appear to be the victim of police racism and harassment and thus giving potency to his civil action against the police. Um did MFJ think that he was the victim of police racism and harassment because of these proceedings?

01:07:12 these proceedings? I think yes and there was other things stopped and searched the way they tried to discredit him and all the abuse. That's a fact. And um that's why he got a settlement, I'm assuming. Um but I tell you, Dwayne Brooks

01:07:27 tell you, Dwayne Brooks was a hero to all of us, really seen as a hero. And so it wasn't a question of um we staked a

01:07:39 it wasn't a question of um we staked a lot on on Dwayne Brooks. We felt I think me and Movement for Justice are very proud of the support we were able to give Dwayne Brooks. I'll say that and when the charges were dropped, we were

01:07:53 when the charges were dropped, we were obviously very happy as as well as the community. And when he was able to to give his evidence

01:08:06 give his evidence and and he started to speak out publicly and it was so important because the way that the media and the and and the uh politicians were patent, oh the Lawrenes, they're very dignified, this middle class reasonable thing, and Dwayne is the kind of single family

01:08:17 Dwayne is the kind of single family person, you know, he's he's the kind of rough neck. And for a lot of us, we more identify, you know, Dwayne, it broke that thing about, oh, black people were either have to emphasize this this

01:08:33 either have to emphasize this this dignified dign when when my mama used to say this when people say you're so dignified from the authorities, you're doing something wrong, right? And I think Dwayne Brooks was was the person that a lot of people identify because

01:08:55 that a lot of people identify because not only was he a victim of that attack and to face that racist murder, but he was also a victim of continued police harassment which a lot of us experienced. So he was he was a real hero and his stand and his ability to

01:09:07 hero and his stand and his ability to make to do what he needed to do changed everything. So yeah,

01:09:23 everything. So yeah, thank you. If I can just move on now to some personal reporting there is about you. Could we please have up MPS 07 trouble 402 tab B17 of Mr. Olad's bundle.

01:09:30 This is a special branch note dated the 14th of February 1995.

01:09:41 You will see and I you've spoken about this document in your witness statement detailed

01:09:43 detailed um personal matters such as your sexuality, address, job, salary, home, car.

01:09:50 car. Yeah.

01:09:50 Yeah. Family.

01:09:51 Family. Yeah.

01:09:56 Yeah. Uh first of all, in your witness statement, you point out various parts of the report that are inaccurate. Yeah. So, first of all, it uh you say at paragraph two of this report, you did not walk work at Olive House. That's right. It was Hamburg House.

01:10:13 That's right. It was Hamburg House. Um, and looking at that paragraph now, is there anything else uh that you recall as inaccurate? Oh, I I was living at my home in Brixham from 1986, not 1990. and and and the place of work. I was

01:10:26 and and and the place of work. I was working for Lambeath Council, but it was Hamburg House. And then in paragraph three of this report,

01:10:33 report, um all of the addresses are privaced, but you say in your statement, having seen the unredacted version, that the addresses of your family are incorrect. Do you recall that?

01:10:53 Do you recall that? Yeah. So, um some of the addresses in Leicester were incorrect. And also I I wasn't a student at Leicester Poly Techchnic

01:11:00 Techchnic and that it asserts that you lived with privacy and as an said that is also incorrect. Uh which line are you talking about? Um so the following year he was living with uh privacy leester

01:11:15 if you can't say don't don't worry. I I don't The following year this is which year is they from 82. Yeah. the following year I was living with a

01:11:21 with a someone

01:11:26 someone I don't know I don't know what that I I don't know what the privacy thing is. Um

01:11:30 Um do you recall from seeing this document any other inaccuracies in that document? Well I moved to London in 1986 not 1989.

01:11:52 Um, no. I I I when I first moved to London, I in 1986, I was um I was a hostel worker at Stonewall Housing Association. It was the first LGBT

01:12:08 Association. It was the first LGBT h um hostel for homeless LGBT people. I did I did do some training at uh as a student nurse. Yeah, that's correct. Thank you. Um, how did Okay, so this where is this from?

01:12:17 from? Uh, well, in due course, it may be suggested to you that Peter Francis is the source of this information about you. And it it may be suggested that he attended your flat on one or two

01:12:29 attended your flat on one or two occasions in 1993 or 1994. Do you recall that?

01:12:35 that? No. So he attended my flat and I told him this or he picked up he saw documents

01:12:43 documents and the information I simply have is that it may be suggested to you that he is the source of this and he attended your flat. Do you recall Peter Francis attending your flat? Never.

01:12:52 Never. Um he may have been posing by the name of Peter Johnson. Does that assist you? Okay. The only people that attended my flat were my personal friends. And would you have discussed detailed

01:13:04 And would you have discussed detailed personal information such as that within this document? Absolutely not. With anyone in the groups you associated with?

01:13:11 with? The only people that knew about my list of address was my own family obviously and some of my real comrades. But this is all

01:13:24 is all it's shocking. Uh, no. There's no way that I would be discussing this and there's no

01:13:30 Can we go to page three in the uh top paragraph, please?

01:13:38 And you see there um of freckles describes your appearance describes you as in fact as a manner in speech are extremely camp and effeminate and then describes your style of dress.

01:13:56 and then describes your style of dress. What is your reaction to this reporting on your sexuality and personal matters? Extremely camp and effeminate and I do that with pride. um

01:14:02 um flam flamboyant style of dress. Well, I don't know what that means. I just wear what I want, but um yeah. So,

01:14:17 but obviously they he means in a derogative way. So,

01:14:22 So, and what's the impact on you of that and the fact that this information is recorded in a special branch report? Well, it's not relevant about my mannerism, but also

01:14:36 you go on later to what they were discussing to do do with that information, but I think it's homophobic. I mean, it's really homophobic. And obviously, um, yeah,

01:14:51 And obviously, um, yeah, if we could bring up Peter Francis's witness statement, please. Page 80, paragraph 484.

01:14:58 that p. Yes. Page 80

01:15:14 um paragraph 484. So, um, Peter Francis says, "There are a number of reasons why I considered it

01:15:26 number of reasons why I considered it necessary to provide special branch with the fact that Alex was overtly gay and affeminate. [snorts] Firstly, Special Branch held a vetting role and our files were available to numerous third parties for that purpose. The report was written

01:15:39 for that purpose. The report was written in the 1990s." So, this is a report, not the one I've just shown you, but a very similar one. Yeah.

01:15:41 Yeah. Uthbi 5034504. But this report was written in the 1990s. Back then, and until the early 2000s, certain roles, such as in the

01:15:53 2000s, certain roles, such as in the military, were not allowed to be held by a person who was gay. The sexual orientation of a person was considered information special branch would want to know. He goes on to say at paragraph 485,

01:16:03 485, secondly, it is very important for special branch to know if there is anything that can be used to turn a person into an informant. For example, if they hide the fact they are gay, it is called talent spotting for which we

01:16:17 is called talent spotting for which we use the acronym mice, money, ideology, compromise, ego, as the factors that might drive a person to cooperate with us. A person who is overtly gay cannot be blackmailed, compromise, with their sexual orientation. The intention in

01:16:32 sexual orientation. The intention in this report was to signal that Alex was very open about his sexual orientation and therefore it could not be used to motivate him to inform. As an example of this, I was approached about getting a

01:16:43 this, I was approached about getting a source to go into the Panthers. If I had been able to identify a closeted black person whose special branch could blackmail, that would have been seen as an important information. I know this particular tactic sounds deeply offensive, but at the time I was doing this task. What is your reaction

01:16:59 doing this task. What is your reaction to the fact that personal matters were reported on you for this supposed purpose?

01:17:01 purpose? I mean, it's all that stuff that was done before when um gay sexuality was criminalized.

01:17:14 criminalized. It's just and we were told at that time cuz I was part of the the lesbian gay movement in the 80s. So, we were told all this stuff would stop and it's obviously continued. I think obviously it didn't affect me directly because I

01:17:25 it didn't affect me directly because I was out and I'm so glad that I was out. I mean, I would have been out. But what disturbs me is at that time in the 80s, there was a

01:17:39 at that time in the 80s, there was a massive campaign against conservative forces within the black community, a homophobic campaign. It was dreadful. And we had um and

01:17:56 being a black gay activist in the closet, you know, if it was brought out that you were gay, it was life-threatening. I've had two situations where I I had nail a knife held to my throat because of of that homophobia.

01:18:08 because of of that homophobia. And in the black lesbian and gay group that I was a leading part of, a lot of our members we had to rescue from their families cuz they were being locked up and tortured. This is how dreadful the

01:18:22 and tortured. This is how dreadful the situation. We turned everything around [clears throat] and in fact by the black lesbian and gay group organizing openly in our own community. We actually found that the once it was postm

01:18:35 once it was postm was on our side. But what I'm really disturbed about this is they talked about going into black organizations like Panther and whether there was black activists who were closed gay cuz look I'm not going to bring anyone out but I

01:18:49 I'm not going to bring anyone out but I know amongst the black community and the activists I've known and some have disclosed later on you know recently or whenever I know there were a number of closeted gays. My job was not unless they were being homophobic. I wouldn't

01:19:04 they were being homophobic. I wouldn't challenge that cuz it's but whether the police have been utilizing that to influence what they're doing and that's what's really disturbing and particularly targeting black activists was particularly there's a racist

01:19:17 was particularly there's a racist connotation to that and the situation we live I think people remembered um um you know Justin Fashion when he committed suicide and how the voice and

01:19:35 committed suicide and how the voice and all the other people just jumped on him in a sense that was the climate we're under and uh you know um so yeah I'm very

01:19:42 to be honest I'm not surprised I mean all of this is not surprising is it um it's uh but at the same time yeah I we need to know

01:19:54 need to know who was targeted in this way but I'm you know my mom always brought me up to be proud of who who I am and I'm really thankful for her because that was and I I for being a black gay person in the black

01:20:12 being a black gay person in the black community I got the maximum resp support support from that commun community and when I was under attack

01:20:19 that whole community came and supported me within a month of my dismissal 30,000 people in Lambbeirth sign petition about so

01:20:40 I love my community and and this was a you know anyway I let's move on for now. Sorry. Thank you Mr. I will move on. Um I'm going to ask you very briefly about that Lambeath Council case if that is okay. Would you like a break?

01:20:53 Would you like a break? Uh yes a short break please. 10 minutes. Oh five minutes. I just want to some coffee. Is that all right? 5 minutes I

01:34:55 Yes. Thank you, sir. Could I please bring up MPS07 treble 459 tab D4 of Morad's bundle?

01:35:13 You see the Oh yes,

01:35:16 Oh yes, this is a newsletter titled the facts about the dismissal of

01:35:28 titled the facts about the dismissal of Alex Oarde and it appears at the top you can see stamp 10th of December 2001. Mhm.

01:35:30 Mhm. And this relates, as I understand, to your dismissal from Lambbeath Council, which you deal with in your statement, paragraphs 231 to 239. As I understand it, you say your dismissal was as the result of your

01:35:43 dismissal was as the result of your involvement in publicly condemning the police's actions in relation to the shooting of Derek Bennett in 2001. Is that right? Yes.

01:35:55 Yes. And also in representing a group of workers for complaining about a racist manager in Lambbeath Council. Correct.

01:35:58 Correct. And is it also right that you brought a claim in the employment tribunal and were successful say for you were not reinstated into your job? Yeah.

01:36:14 Yeah. Just looking at this newsletter um you can see handwriting just above the title submitted for info. Yes,

01:36:18 Yes, I see that in terms of this being in the possession of the SDS. What is your reaction to the [clears throat] SDS having this newsletter? Uh clearly um they were interested in in

01:36:31 they were interested in in in the on my case and my dismissal for and um my disciplinary and my dismissal from from um

01:36:46 from from um from Lamb of Council because

01:36:47 because originally I spoke out in defense of the young people at the Derek Bennett demonstration. and Lambbeath Council initiated

01:37:00 and Lambbeath Council initiated disciplinary action against me [snorts] saying that I'm speaking out and speaking speaking as a movement for justice member at the local police consultative body was bringing the council into dispute that that's the

01:37:14 council into dispute that that's the first charge they laid against me. I went into that hearing and just confronted them about that and saying well I'm going to go public on this. This is my democratic right. They dropped that and then the next thing they came with this. But I I do think

01:37:29 they came with this. But I I do think this was the police were obviously had an interest on

01:37:36 on on my role not only as a community leader but also a workers leader fighting racism in Lambeath Council. Um, [clears throat]

01:37:54 and it looking at um, I think it's at paragraph 239 of your statement, you raise a concern regarding the SDS reporting that you have read, particularly in relation to personal matters about yourself and the events leading to your dismissal. What is your concern about that? Firstly, they had

01:38:06 concern about that? Firstly, they had detailed information about my employment with uh Lambeath Council and the only way they got that is if they approached Lambeath Council and I did not give at

01:38:17 Lambeath Council and I did not give at any point Lambbeath council permission to do that information about me. Secondly, uh uh part of um Lambbeath Council was in the pursuing over me speaking out around Derek

01:38:29 over me speaking out around Derek Bennett was was attempting to get members of the Lambeath Police Consulted me to give evidence against me in the hearing.

01:38:40 hearing. I think

01:38:48 I think there were some reports that I've seen uh where Brian Paddock who is the um commander had said that one of his greatest achievement was to get me out

01:39:00 greatest achievement was to get me out of Lambbeath and the chief executive of the council was reported to the deputy leader and he made it in a statement that they wanted to get me out of lambbe council. So I think they served the both interests and I think there was there may have been collaboration cuz there's

01:39:17 may have been collaboration cuz there's information that that they have received which they could only get from Lambeath Council no one else. What has been the impact on you discovering that there was an undercover officer in FF MFJ and reading the

01:39:31 officer in FF MFJ and reading the reporting that has been disclosed to you?

01:39:33 you? Um,

01:39:42 one thing I would say is reading those reports have been very useful

01:39:43 useful because obviously the way they've put things etc. You obviously take that as that's just slander and stuff like that. But it really showed us how effective we

01:39:58 But it really showed us how effective we have been. but also it really showed how desperate they were to undermine our ability to call them out and bring them to public account. And um and you

01:40:09 to public account. And um and you remember at the time after Steven Lawrence inquiry the Metropolan Police, Lambbeath Council, every institution in

01:40:24 Lambbeath Council, every institution in the world in in UK was like, "Oh, we've seen the light. Um we we we recognize that we've suffered from institution racism. We're going to do all these difference." But at the same time, this was going on and it was clearly designed to try and protect the record and to protect the police in their criminal activity, subversive activity towards

01:40:40 activity, subversive activity towards our rights. And I think that's what's exposed it. I think reading this, I think as a movement for justice and that movement, we were able to still

01:40:52 that movement, we were able to still prevail. And I think I imagine this is still going on now, particularly with the Palestinian movement. And if it sends a message to the current movement that yes, you're going to they're going

01:41:03 that yes, you're going to they're going to try these things, but if you stick to your guns and you fight, you can still win. I think

01:41:11 I want to know uh because I wasn't reinstated and and that was a big impact on me and I want to know what the I would like to

01:41:22 I want to know what the I would like to know what connections are. In one of the statements they mentioned about blacklisting and stuff like that and I'd like the inquiry to investigate that. So yeah, it's it's a revelation. I it is an invasion when you think people are

01:41:39 invasion when you think people are reporting you and say reporting to you in that manner um slandering yourself that is invasive. Um, but also I just like to I'm glad it's come out and I'm I'm glad and it it's reminds me very much of how

01:41:59 it's reminds me very much of how how powerful our movement was and what we achieved and I really do that's my lasting thing if that's enough. Thank you. And then finally um there is a report that features information about your relative. Yeah.

01:42:13 Yeah. Uh we don't need to go to it. What is the impact on you of discovering that there is reporting on your relative? I'm outraged. My relative is not so concerned, but I'm outraged and specifically without going into details.

01:42:34 My relative was in a in was abroad and in a very dangerous situation and

01:42:35 and there was

01:42:37 there was a a big delay in the foreign office sorting my relatives return and

01:42:51 and it lend it ended up with my mother had to go down to the foreign office and refuse to leave until I to oh disclosing until her relative was on the plane

01:43:05 until her relative was on the plane coming home. And when I read this, that explains why they were messing around with her. They were questioning my relatives uh whe whether they were a British citizen, which is outrageous.

01:43:16 British citizen, which is outrageous. So, I do think it had an it explains cuz we couldn't explain why why they were not evacuating her. And I think it says at paragraph 250 and 251 of your statement, you considered a gross in um invasion of privacy.

01:43:27 gross in um invasion of privacy. Yeah, exactly. of my privacy and her privacy.

01:43:33 privacy. So those are all my questions I uh have. Um I understand there are no rule 10 but there may be some re-examination certainly and I I understand that the rule 10 process has been gone through it and drawn blank. It has. Yes. Thank you. Yes.

01:43:50 Yes. Yes. M I really only have one question or one opportunity I want to give you. Uh you've now been taken through all this material. Is there anything left on the table as it were that you want to

01:44:01 the table as it were that you want to tell Sir John that you think will help him with the inquiry that hasn't been said by you uh during the course of today? Is there anything left that you

01:44:13 today? Is there anything left that you want to tell him about about the inquiry or anything else uh relevant to what's happened to you? Uh no, but I'd like to say one thing because the people who are watching this because this is about them. I'd just say and

01:44:26 and I'm very proud to be part of that young generation um of of of the black and Asian

01:44:37 um of of of the black and Asian community, but also of the anti-racist community that really despite all the odds was able to come together and

01:44:49 odds was able to come together and expose what was happening. And I'm very proud and I just want to say I'm proud of all the people that I was involved the hundreds of thousands or whoever people I didn't know. It was a really historic moment and I'm saying to the younger generation now that hopefully this what we've gone through will help you feel that you can take things

01:45:01 you feel that you can take things forward. So I'm just it's the pride of being part of that is just immense and I thank you for this opportunity. That's all. Thank you. So that is all. Thank you.

01:45:13 So that is all. Thank you. May I thank you as I do all of those who've come to give voluntary evidence like you. May I thank you for it. Um

01:45:27 like you. May I thank you for it. Um oral evidence of the events that you've described bring them to life in a way that the papers can't. I'm grateful to you. You're welcome. Thank you. You're welcome.

01:45:41 You're welcome. Right. Uh we will resume tomorrow at 10:00 the normal time. Um, until then, enjoy.