Lindsey German - SWP Privacy Breaches

Full transcript

00:20:16 thank you sir mr german

00:20:17 mr german before the lunch adjournment we were speaking about documents which really named you

00:20:26 named you now that we've had what i hope was a good lunch we can go to skegness and i would like to show you two sds reports about the swp skegness rallies

00:20:39 reports about the swp skegness rallies these were an annual event weren't they held at easter that's right can we look first of all at a document from 1980

00:20:46 from 1980 volume 2 tab 15 ucpi

00:20:51 ucpi five zeroes fourteen five five one

00:21:08 now this is the cover page of the report which is dated the 25th of september 1980

00:21:13 1980 referring to the easter 1980 rally

00:21:14 rally at paragraph three it says submitted with this report is a list received from a reliable source of those persons who registered for the rally and took up

00:21:29 registered for the rally and took up residence at the holiday center for the weekend

00:21:37 weekend thereafter there is a very long list running to about 50 pages of attendees

00:21:41 attendees if we go over one page to page two please

00:21:44 please we see an example of what i would call an ordinary page which has names district and then references

00:21:58 and then references but i'd also like to go to page 49 please

00:22:08 and here towards the end we have a page where you've got names down the side on the left

00:22:21 the left but then under the heading district only some of the names have district a district by them

00:22:28 and a lot of them a lot of the entries seem in fact describe instead what the person did and there are a number of entries which say entertainer

00:22:39 say entertainer and a number which say individual was this an event that you could attend if you were not a member of the swp yes that's right you could

00:22:51 yes that's right you could and if we look at the first time individual are the the highest entry we see under reference it says no trace

00:23:02 reference it says no trace is it possible somebody attended the skegness rally in easter 1980 who was not a member of the socialist workers party and had never come to the attention of special branch before yes that's quite possible

00:23:15 before yes that's quite possible and the entertainers were they members of the swp or did it vary not necessarily there'd be musicians or comedians and things like that thank you

00:23:29 comedians and things like that thank you that can be taken down can we go to 1982 please that's volume 2 tab 27

00:23:34 and the number for that is

00:23:39 ucpi5018180

00:23:50 and as this is dated the 14th of may 1982

00:23:52 1982 and paragraph one reads submitted herewith is a list obtained from a secret and reliable source of all adults from the london area who attended the socialist workers party annual rally

00:24:03 socialist workers party annual rally which was held at skegness from the 9th to the 12th of april and then there are pages of

00:24:10 pages of names and also documents

00:24:13 documents that were

00:24:19 emanating from that event were the

00:24:20 were the attendance lists uh for both those events confidential yes

00:24:31 yes can we now move from skegness to the 1980

00:24:35 1980 national delegate conference that's volume 2 tab 16 at ucpi

00:24:41 at ucpi 5016148

00:24:55 this is dated the 13th of january 1981 it's a report on the national delegate conference of that year it's a very long report but i

00:25:07 but i can take you straight to the bottom of the present screen for the question i want to ask you uh there are listed

00:25:18 uh there are listed there's a guide to what documents are attached to the report the first one documents one to ten additional information sheets concerning confidential statistics and party membership activities and publications so

00:25:28 so they were indeed confidential weren't they they weren't they weren't of individual names they will have been of how many people have joined how many people have left and so on so yeah they wouldn't have been in breach of individual people but these but these

00:25:39 individual people but these but these are statistics these are yes they'll be they'll be how many papers were sold yes i'm moving from the names that we saw in skegness to this is more about

00:25:53 skegness to this is more about information about the party confidential party information these are internal statistics about the state of your party aren't they that's right and those are confidential um

00:26:01 um a mixture of party and personal affairs if we go to tab 17

00:26:07 tab 17 ucpi 500

00:26:20 this is a document dated the third of april 1981 reads submitted here with is an up-to-date list of the secretariat and their telephone numbers of the swp

00:26:37 their telephone numbers of the swp national office the list was circulated with the swp weekly information sheet dated the 31st of march 1981

00:26:39 1981 and then there's a list of names and details are these are people that phil cooper would have been working with well some of them yes he would have been

00:26:51 uh again confidential

00:26:58 well yes they they should have been confidential they shouldn't have been available the phone numbers or or any other details about them

00:27:07 finally volume 2 tab 20 ucpi5016619

00:27:24 this is the 30th of september 1981. reads paragraph two the persons listed in the appendix are shown in the records of the socialist workers party at their national office and gives the address as holding the

00:27:39 and gives the address as holding the positions in the swp as shown and it's a very long list of different people in different positions would it be right to say that some of these positions will have been a matter of public knowledge and some of them would not yes it's probably a

00:27:51 would not yes it's probably a combination of both but the records and your records were themselves confidential yes

00:27:58 having put to you a series of documents containing large

00:28:02 large large numbers of data some of it personal some of it not what is your reaction to that reporting on your organization its members and

00:28:16 on your organization its members and those associated with it well i think let's just take skegness first and escape nest was a a weekend which was meant as a kind of combination of social holiday and political event

00:28:28 social holiday and political event it attracted a lot of people who weren't swp members including people's partners and obviously lots of children came and

00:28:39 and obviously lots of children came and and people who just wanted that mixture of things and therefore a lot of those names that have been passed over will have been of people who weren't sw swpn as you said may well not have been on any list or any under any scrutiny from anybody so i think

00:28:53 anybody so i think that is a breach of um their

00:28:54 their their details is also it really misunderstands the whole kind of event this was an event which we were open about which people came to some people didn't go to any meetings

00:29:09 some people didn't go to any meetings they you know maybe they just went there because they just wanted to have a good time and their partners were going to meetings it was there was absolutely no justification for what was done in terms of the party conference again most of these

00:29:24 again most of these pieces of information didn't need to be given to anybody uh as i've repeated on on a number of occasions these were people were engaged in activity which is perfectly above

00:29:37 in activity which is perfectly above board and perfectly um acceptable to anybody to be doing and i find it quite amazing that these are you know so many of these names have been handed over

00:29:48 over and where would that have ended it would end with them being blacklisted not being able to get jobs and suffering detriment in all sorts of ways to their to their lives uh

00:29:58 uh standing back now you are i think are well aware of the evidence that's been given in the earlier phases about infiltration of the swp in the fact

00:30:09 infiltration of the swp in the fact there were a large number of undercover police officers who did infiltrate the swp in the trans era we've seen that they

00:30:21 we've seen that they there was infiltration at branch level district level and to some extent at national level for most of the tarantula era could i ask for your reflections please on the scale and duration

00:30:32 on the scale and duration of infiltration into your party well i think it's as i've said i don't think it was justified i don't see

00:30:45 think it was justified i don't see why any of this information needed to be passed on and the only conclusion that you can draw from people infiltrating whether it's

00:30:56 infiltrating whether it's national level or indeed at branch or or district level is that they were looking to find things that simply they wanted to put the left in a very bad light that's the conclusion i draw and i feel

00:31:08 and i feel that there's a very great difference between the infiltration of the swp and any surveillance of the national front for example which that simply wasn't and that was clearly a decision that was

00:31:20 that was clearly a decision that was taken so you have to see this i think as politically motivated and i think you have to see it as trying to put the left in the light that they're to blame and the whole

00:31:27 the whole sort of if you read the many of the reports the whole tenet of them is that the swp was

00:31:41 the swp was piggybacking on things was um was using organizations all this sort of thing and they very no evidence is really given to prove that so i would say that

00:31:48 there was a big effort put into this

00:31:54 for very very little results in terms of any information that was found because most of that information could have been very clearly found in complete legitimate ways which would have saved this infiltration and would have saved a great deal of public time and money

00:32:08 great deal of public time and money thank you those are all my questions up to this stage there may be some more in a moment what our

00:32:15 what our process uh requires is that there is a pause of 20 minutes while anybody who is a participant in the inquiry can suggest

00:32:28 suggest questions or lines of questioning to mr barr

00:32:29 barr which he may then ask you when 20 minutes have gone and and then

00:32:40 when 20 minutes have gone and and then your council will have the opportunity of asking you any questions in what old-fashioned lawyers call re-examination 20-minute break please

00:55:02 uh

00:55:15 so no further questions right mr scoby yes uh now mr chairman not many more questions but just a few uh topics and i wanted to start if i may with

00:55:22 with the the issue of opposing uh national front front marches i mean was there a policy of

00:55:30 of stewarding and discipline in relation to the swp about approaching those marches yes of course we had a very extensive

00:55:44 yes of course we had a very extensive stewarding operation we always made sure what we wanted to do was to make sure that people could get to the marches safely could could operate in a disciplined

00:55:55 could operate in a disciplined collective manner and not to have it descending into

00:56:06 descending into just fights between individuals so yes we put a lot of effort into that and one of the words you've used was obstruction and can you just define what you mean by obstructing the marches what were you meaning by that well i think was usually what we

00:56:20 that well i think was usually what we intended to do was to say we didn't want the march to go on a particular route and therefore we would block the road we would sit down in the road as we've done on occasions or we would try in

00:56:32 on occasions or we would try in different ways to prevent it happening so that's really what we were talking about we were talking about blocking obstructing whatever you yes word you want to put that kind of thing so block so preventing

00:56:45 so preventing the marches the nf marchers from getting into

00:56:46 into the areas where there would be trouble that's right because we didn't we didn't want to

00:56:52 want to if this wasn't seen as us versus the national front in that sense obviously we didn't agree at all with their politics we thought they were a real

00:57:07 politics we thought they were a real danger but what we were concerned about was we were operating in a period with very very high levels of attacks with um

00:57:11 um deaths more than 50 deaths in those few years of murders of of black and ethnic minority people so what we wanted to do was to stop them being able to do it and i think what i felt very strongly and i still do feel

00:57:25 felt very strongly and i still do feel very strongly is that if you look at the approach of hitler's nazis before 1933 the control of the streets was incredibly important to them and we didn't want the nf to be able to do that in this country we

00:57:41 be able to do that in this country we knew they were getting very big votes in elections and particularly in london in 1977 but we wanted to say we don't want this translated into activity on the ground which can be actively harmful to

00:57:58 actively harmful to so many people including some of our own members who suffered attacks just this um there have been a number of specific allegations of i suppose

00:58:10 i suppose allegations of so-called hot heads that were linked allegedly to the swp what

00:58:16 what did you do with people who fell within that bracket i mean were people like that actually expelled there were some people who were expelled in the late 1970s will be

00:58:29 expelled in the late 1970s will be parted company with one way or the other because we put a very strong argument that this isn't about just individuals chasing after national front and that had been

00:58:43 had been a problem generally because certainly in the area i lived in in south hackney there were quite strong fascist groupings that was true in south hackney in shoreditch hoxton

00:58:50 hoxton roman road in tower hamlets and various other places and it could easily become you know you had these old mosleyite

00:59:02 you know you had these old mosleyite families going dating back to the 30s it could easily become just an individual fight between people and we were very much against that because we could see where it could lead it could just lead to forms of gang warfare which wouldn't benefit anybody so that was very much against

00:59:17 anybody so that was very much against our policy and we did break with those people where we felt we had to and we've heard of the disorder southall or at lewisham red lion square obviously looking back on it

00:59:32 looking back on it what in your view could have been done to prevent that disorder or those examples of disorder what

00:59:44 disorder what looking back on those events would have been done to prevent this disorder the main thing that could have been done would have been a recognition by the police in particular and by the higher authorities because there's no doubt there was a policy here going on that a recognition that it wasn't

00:59:55 that a recognition that it wasn't acceptable to just say to these people not only can you march we are going to protect your marches and particularly if you look in southall the whole of the community

01:00:05 community was against this i mean they've since there's a school named after blair peach a primary school in southall because the community recognized the sacrifice that he'd made but

01:00:16 he'd made but nobody wanted them there it is the honest truth nobody in south all apart from a tiny handful would think it was a good idea so in short prevented by what

01:00:29 good idea so in short prevented by what well but the police didn't need to have this policy they didn't need to to do this and they went out of their way to do what banning the march well banning a march is one option and and that was

01:00:45 march is one option and and that was done interestingly in 1981 they did the metropolitan police did ban all the um all the

01:00:48 all the national front marches but we also took the view that bands themselves don't necessarily end the situation and that therefore we need to have a situation where where the community and the left and the people are

01:01:02 and the left and the people are anti-fascists do need to be able to say we are not going to put up with these people in our area just

01:01:07 just we know this morning a lot of questions were asked of you

01:01:13 of you about the physical side of opposition effectively um what in real summary form please very short form were the political campaigns

01:01:24 short form were the political campaigns you were engaged in and in essence what was their purpose we did lots of support for the black and asian communities

01:01:36 black and asian communities just to give one example in brit lane the national front in 1978 went and smashed a load of windows in brick lane of the asian shops and restaurants we took a decision that we would occupy the

01:01:52 would occupy the space at the top of brick lane where the national front had their paper sale and we did that with the bengali community for several weeks and that was what i

01:01:59 for several weeks and that was what i thought was very important part of what we did it was saying to people who are under threat we're willing to join in with you in defending your community against people so those kind of things we painted out slogans i painted out slogans on my own block of flats when i moved in there with the nf put slogans

01:02:11 moved in there with the nf put slogans on we were determined not to have them yeah graffiti that's right yeah yeah so it's that sort of thing that's right and that was most of what people did against the fascists i mean we're hearing all

01:02:22 the fascists i mean we're hearing all this now about several very high level confrontations but most of it was how do we combat racism how do we organize in schools and in um in factories and all

01:02:34 schools and in um in factories and all these places against the national front just moving away um and dealing with a specific area you were asked about this morning uh grumwick and um

01:02:44 and um people being bussed in and you were asked a specific question i want to just go back to you were asked this however strongly the strikers and members of your

01:03:01 the strikers and members of your organization felt about their actions strike breaking was not unlawful was it and your answer was your reply was i i don't know whether it was unlawful to do what they did just pausing for a moment i mean as a matter of fact did you know

01:03:13 i mean as a matter of fact did you know one way or the other what the labor law was at that time no i didn't i mean did you know one way or the other if it was legal

01:03:24 legal to

01:03:25 to sack strikers and bust in a new workforce did you know i didn't know but it shouldn't be legal in my opinion even if it was so so so when you said you don't know whether it

01:03:40 when you said you don't know whether it was unlawful to do what they did is that what you were getting at yes that's right

01:03:41 right just um finally this one of the words used uh on a number of occasions this morning was uh the word overthrow and

01:03:52 and just this

01:03:54 just this how did you think the socialist transformation of society would come about how did you what were your how did you believe it was going to come about

01:04:06 was going to come about i believe it and i still believe it can only come about by people taking action into their own hands to try to achieve a more democratic society now that means all sorts of things it might mean

01:04:19 all sorts of things it might mean strikes it might mean demonstrations it might mean a whole range of different things but it was it's mass activity on behalf of the masses and i don't

01:04:32 behalf of the masses and i don't i don't see any alternative to that and it's always tried to be put and i know with a whole number of reports are trying to put it as it's like a put you know there's a tiny number of us who you know turn up and think that we're going to get rid of the mps or whatever it is that is so far from any socialist

01:04:48 it is that is so far from any socialist activity in this country it's it's just it's just so did you i mean did you and do you view it as a as evil as an evolving process it's a process it's a process where you if you think about when any revolution or any

01:05:01 think about when any revolution or any major upheaval occurs it's a process of decomposition at the top of society it's a process of people becoming more aware at the bottom of society and it's a

01:05:15 at the bottom of society and it's a process of them winning larger large numbers of people to take action in order to change the society that's how i would sum it up nearly there last

01:05:26 nearly there last last question really revolving around that process

01:05:33 this is not just your own personal belief but also the belief of as you saw it from the swp as part of that process that you've just described in that even evolving process did it

01:05:46 evolving process did it inherently necessarily involve violence

01:05:49 violence i've i've always taken the view that revolutions aren't violent or not mainly violent occurrences there are occurrences which take place when people can no longer live in the old way

01:06:04 people can no longer live in the old way and the rulers can no longer rule in the old way that's when they come about and they involve a big democratic movement which isn't about violence and when you look at when people talk about violent you know the um

01:06:15 you know the um situation with say the french revolution you're looking at what happens after the failure of that revolutionary process in my opinion yes sir we have no further questions

01:06:29 sir we have no further questions thank you very much thank you um i have two um

01:06:31 two um very specific and minor questions first in the papers i've seen reference to quote squadist's close quote as the people within the swp who were

01:06:51 as the people within the swp who were advocating individual violence uh and um am i right in thinking that that's a term that you recognize and that uh those are the people who were required to leave

01:07:01 to leave yes that's right that's right so when i see a reference to squad it's that group um

01:07:03 um finally this and please tell me if you don't know one way or the other but the my understanding of the law is that the 1948 representation of the people act

01:07:15 1948 representation of the people act which i think applied at the time of uh the southall disturbances and indeed your own um event at the the school before you became an swp member

01:07:26 member um that

01:07:33 um that those standing in parliamentary and local elections in london boroughs were entitled to use uh places that were wholly or maintainedly wholly or mainly maintained at public expense for their election meetings

01:07:46 expense for their election meetings is that something that you or the swp were aware of at the time i was aware of it and we objected to that policy and

01:07:59 it and we objected to that policy and that's what the haggerston school thing was about i thought it was a terrible policy and it was one that has been reversed quite some time ago you'd obviously know when it was better than i do but it it it's no longer the case and i think that's an interesting thing in terms of how people's

01:08:12 terms of how people's views of these things have changed i don't think anybody would argue or nearly anybody would argue that it's a good idea for fascists to meet in school halls or

01:08:22 halls or council buildings so that was we did object to that yes entirely accept that you objected to it but you objected it to it knowing that the law of the land actually provided

01:08:36 the law of the land actually provided that they were entitled to make use well i found out about it at the hagerston school one yes it wasn't something i knew much before about that then thank you very much for the evidence you've given um i hope you found it an interesting experience

01:08:49 interesting experience um i personally am great very grateful to you for coming and telling us all those years later about what was going on

01:08:56 on from a senior level in the swp at the time

01:09:02 time may i take it that uh i can expect the same from you when we get to our next tranche

01:09:03 tranche two

01:09:04 two and i hope so yeah well of course

01:09:11 health and intellect permitting of course that goes for both of us thank you very much indeed thank you i think that concludes today's proceedings does it not very well

01:09:49 you