Lindsey German, former Central Committee member of the Socialist Workers Party, provides detailed testimony to the Undercover Policing Inquiry about left-wing activism in the 1970s-80s, anti-fascist campaigns, industrial disputes, and the infiltration of the SWP by undercover police officers who assumed positions of trust and responsibility.
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00:17:11 good morning everybody and welcome to the first
00:17:13 the first more or less traditional evidential hearing conduct to be
00:17:24 evidential hearing conduct to be conducted by the inquiry up to now we've all had to do it on remote screens it's a great relief to do it in the flesh again
00:17:25 again before we start may i ask those of you in the public area at the back to look at the document the single page document put in front of you
00:17:36 you which explains why what i'm about to say must be
00:17:41 must be complied with anyone with a handheld electronic device may of course use it to transmit to the outside world silently what you hear
00:17:54 silently what you hear including the evidence that you hear in this hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed from the event that you are describing
00:18:10 from the event that you are describing the purpose is explained in the document it's briefly to ensure that orders that i have made are upheld you may not use those devices for recording or for photographing uh it's important that these restrictions are complied with if
00:18:26 restrictions are complied with if they're not it will cause a great deal of trouble and may result in a sanction for the person or persons breaching them
00:18:36 now rearrange my desk so that i can see everybody a little more
00:18:44 thank you um welcome to day one of evidential hearings at the undercover policing inquiry my name is neil fernandes and i am the hearings manager there is no fire alarm testing expected today so if the fire alarm does go off please follow the fire exit signs and
00:18:56 please follow the fire exit signs and make your way to the master point which is the hard rock hotel great cumberland place
00:19:01 place on the arrival at the muster point please make yourself known to a fire marshal who will be wearing a high visibility jacket and who will be keeping a register of all attendees the fire marshals will also be
00:19:12 the fire marshals will also be responsible for letting everyone know when it's safe to return in liaison with representatives from the thistle hotel
00:19:26 representatives from the thistle hotel i now hand over to the chairman sir john mitting to formally start today's proceedings chairman thank you mr german
00:19:27 mr german may i first of all established how i may address you without causing offence is it miss or misses um yeah mercy um i'm a doctor as well but
00:19:45 um i'm a doctor as well but probably best to stick to most i think um i will do whatever you prefer that's great thank you um mr german i understand that you wish to affirm and uh mr fernandez will read the words out to to commit you to do that
00:19:59 do that thank you thank you thank you mr repeat after me
00:20:00 after me i some i solemnly declare an affirm i solemnly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give that the evidence
00:20:14 evidence i shall give that the evidence that i shall give will be the truth will be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you mr chairman thank you chairman thank you mr barr is now going to ask you questions on behalf of the inquiry now before he does may i explain two things
00:20:27 before he does may i explain two things one of them arises from your own written witness statement in which you um suggest that some of the questions are based on they misappreciation of what was going on and a preconceived view that is wrong
00:20:38 that is wrong first of all may i make it clear neither i nor my inquiry team have a preconceived view about what was going on we're here to inquire into what happened not to assert a preconceived
00:20:52 happened not to assert a preconceived view and many of the questions that you were asked in the rule 9 request um were asked because of the information that we have from contemporaneous documents and and the like which
00:21:05 documents and and the like which give one version of what occurred uh to permit you to respond to it likewise when he asks questions it will be on behalf of the inquiry but he will also be putting questions to you which
00:21:17 also be putting questions to you which on topics and to some extent in the form that have been suggested by other core participants in the inquiry with whose views you may well disagree thank you for explaining that i would just yes and i'm sure we can come to it
00:21:32 just yes and i'm sure we can come to it in the course of the of the evidence yes if there's anything you would like to say
00:21:33 say at this stage please do so well i i would just like to repeat that i do think a number of the questions do stem from misconception but hopefully i'll have a chance to discuss that
00:21:47 i'll have a chance to discuss that further as we go on certainly thanks mr barr
00:21:49 barr thank you sir mr german could we start with your full name please my full name is lindsay and german and you've provided a very fulsome
00:22:01 and you've provided a very fulsome witness statement to the inquiry dated the 14th of february 2022 are the contents of that witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief yes they are
00:22:12 are and today we're seeking your assistance in relation to what we call the tranche one era that is from 1968 until the early 80s
00:22:22 early 80s 1982 1983 or thereabouts i'd like to start with a little bit about
00:22:33 about your activism and your career in the relevant period with
00:22:36 with the international socialists which became the socialist workers party
00:22:47 became the socialist workers party you describe in your witness statement an early political awakening with a revulsion to war colonialism racism
00:22:55 racism fascism and class inequality is that right
00:22:56 right that's right and you started your activism with the stop the 70 campaign in leicester as a student
00:23:07 student that's the first demonstration that i went on
00:23:12 went on and then you joined the socialist society at the london school of economics
00:23:14 economics that's right yes in 1972 and in that same year you were greatly moved by the three big industrial disputes of that year the minus strike
00:23:32 disputes of that year the minus strike the docker strike and the builder strike that's right and it was a very it was a time when there was a very very high level of
00:23:36 level of industrial action and i felt this was something that really should be supported so i got very involved in those
00:23:41 those and
00:23:42 and it was in 1972 that you joined the hillingdon branch of what was then the international socialist that's right yeah
00:23:53 yeah and after you completed your studies you became the full-time student organizer in 1975 yes and you remained a full-time worker within the socialist workers party for
00:24:06 within the socialist workers party for the rest of the tranche one era that's right
00:24:08 right in 1977 you became the full-time district organizer for central london yes
00:24:19 yes and then in 1979 you were voted on to the central committee as a woman's organizer yes can you help us with how big the central committee was well as i recall it was about 10 people
00:24:35 well as i recall it was about 10 people at the time i couldn't be exactly right about that but that kind of number it was a relatively small body of people it was answerable to bigger committees inside the international socialist but it was around that size yes was that the
00:24:50 around that size yes was that the ultimate executive decision-making body it was swp it was the day-to-day organizing body of the swp yes can i turn now to the aims of the socialist workers party what i'm going to do is put what i hope
00:25:02 to do is put what i hope are a series of reasonably straightforward propositions to you and then at the end just to make sure i've not missed anything and you've got the chance
00:25:13 anything and you've got the chance to to be absolutely clear with us i'll ask you if i've missed anything um the socialist workers party is a revolutionary socialist movement that's right
00:25:24 right and the aim is to bring about a socialist society yes and that requires the self-emancipation of the working class
00:25:35 of the working class that's right and i think it's important to stress this is this isn't something that's done on behalf of people it's something which we saw and i continue to see is something that has to be the majority of people changing society for the better
00:25:50 changing society for the better self-emancipation is a very important part of course of course and so the struggle it can only be achieved by their struggle
00:25:55 struggle of course yes that it can't be substituted for by any small group of people who's acting on their behalf and the outcome would be that new institutions would replace old institutions so
00:26:11 would replace old institutions so ultimately you would like to see elected workers councils making decisions for the country rather than the current parliamentary
00:26:22 rather than the current parliamentary arrangements that we have today well i think
00:26:23 think for any socialist of my sort you see parliament as very very limited in terms of the democracy that it achieves and
00:26:34 of the democracy that it achieves and the more it's aged as an institution in a way the less the less democratic it's become that it doesn't really represent the interests of of wide-ranging number of people in
00:26:47 of of wide-ranging number of people in particular i think a lot of people are very alienated from parliament at the moment so
00:26:51 moment so this idea of of self-emancipation is a higher form of democracy it involves more people it involves people being elected from workplaces from communities
00:27:03 elected from workplaces from communities and and making their own decisions about how a society is run and so it is the the end goal is you do away with parliament replace it with workers councils and you think that the the
00:27:16 councils and you think that the the result is you get a country which is run by the people in the interests of the people and not a country which is run in the interest of profit by a small elite through parliament
00:27:28 parliament that's right and it is something that i think as i say is a much wider higher form of democracy than the one we have now
00:27:34 have now and essentially this is the replacement of a capitalist society with a socialist society that would be the ultimate aim but of course that
00:27:45 but of course that it that is a situation we're still quite a long way away from but that is the idea of it that society would be run on the basis of need and not of profit which
00:27:54 which in my opinion would be a big improvement on what we have now have i missed anything fundamental about
00:28:06 have i missed anything fundamental about the aims of the swp well i think i think it's perhaps worth putting a little bit in context that this is something that um
00:28:07 um when i joined and when i think most people become socialists revolutionary socialists of that sort it's not that we felt this was an immediate achievable
00:28:18 felt this was an immediate achievable aim it was something we we desired to happen but we recognized as a few thousand people and even if you add together other organizations tens of thousands of people weren't in a position to do so i think one of the important things is to stress
00:28:31 one of the important things is to stress that that it's a it's if you like it's a name that we have but it's not something we thought was going to happen in 1979 or 1980. i'll come back to progress uh in a
00:28:46 uh in a moment can we deal in before then with methods
00:28:47 methods uh is again i'm going to put some propositions to you to see whether you uh agree with them first of all is the main method you use to build support amongst a working class
00:29:04 support amongst a working class until ultimately they have the power to overthrow the current institutions well that's not quite a method is it i mean what do you mean by a method how do it build building support a lot of the work you do is about spreading
00:29:17 of the work you do is about spreading spreading your message spreading your philosophy within the working class to try in general that's right that's the bottom up
00:29:28 bottom up self-emancipation that we talked about earlier and that takes the form of activity in trade unions takes the form
00:29:39 activity in trade unions takes the form of selling papers and generally arguing about these kinds of things yes so the sort of places that the swp
00:29:44 swp was active in the tranche one era were workplaces in those days particularly within industry
00:29:49 industry in the civil service that's right in all of those that we had for a time we had factory branches and we have workplace branches and we would
00:30:01 we have workplace branches and we would organize people within those workplaces but also geographically as well and in students and all the different areas we thought we could and schools as well we didn't have permanent organization in schools but there were at times when we
00:30:16 schools but there were at times when we were involved in activity around schools particularly against the national front but also other other issues as well a lot of anti-racism work very much so women's rights yes
00:30:28 women's rights yes and lots of single issues such as
00:30:30 such as the irish question
00:30:38 campaigns against cuts closures and supporting individual types of industrial action that's right there was that was the range of things that we did and we would get involved in different issues as they were important for example in the second
00:30:53 were important for example in the second half of the 70s there were big campaigns around abortion because that was something that was subject to restrictions that there was attempts through parliament to restrict the right of abortion so there were big demonstrations big campaigns which we were involved in and that's just one
00:31:04 were involved in and that's just one campaign but those were the sorts of things we did yes and a lot of political education yeah of course and you were seeking to expand your membership yes and we did we did it
00:31:17 yes and we did we did it fair to say isn't it that your organization grew a great deal during the 1970s
00:31:26 have i missed anything fundamental about the
00:31:32 the methods that the swp and its predecessor was using in the time we're talking about
00:31:35 about i i just think no i don't think you've missed anything but i think it's just you seem to be sort of dividing it up into different
00:31:46 sort of dividing it up into different things rather than looking at it more as a totality which it was you know there was
00:31:47 was there was the activity but also there's a political discussions political debate all those sorts of things which were very important to us at the time so it's all it's all wrapped up it's all part of the same
00:31:58 the same the same process yes now would it be fair to say that the fwp pushed its work very hard
00:32:09 that the fwp pushed its work very hard well we were enthusiastic about what we did i don't know whether it's right to say we pushed it very hard but i'll give you some examples so we can explore that so for example um
00:32:21 um in terms of industrial disputes very much your philosophy as an organization was that escalation would tend to give a better outcome for the working people who you were supporting
00:32:33 who you were supporting well i don't think that's quite the right way to look at industrial disputes and as far as i'm concerned industrial disputes arise when people have a
00:32:46 disputes arise when people have a grievance and we had very very big ones as you've referred to in the early 70s over the miners and and the dockers who were put in prison we had all those sorts of things but essentially what you've got with strikes is people
00:32:59 what you've got with strikes is people take strike action when they don't have any other outlet to do so in that situation we would always support the strikes we would want them
00:33:13 support the strikes we would want them to be as rapid as possible as successful as possible in terms of winning their demands but i'd in terms of sort of pushing
00:33:14 pushing them to be escalated as much as possible this was something which was part of the trade union movement it wasn't something that we did separately from the trade union movement as a whole if you
00:33:27 union movement as a whole if you supported the strikes that's what you did yeah and your organization did support the strikes and you would turn out
00:33:37 out in force if you could muster it and you would back the strikers to the hilt because you wanted to see them win that's right but i also think it's worth saying that in most cases with strikes actually
00:33:46 actually they're ones that take place with relatively small numbers of people they're ones that take place with relatively small picket lines and we supported all of those i mean i was when i was central london organizer was a
00:34:01 i was central london organizer was a strike of steak houses here in central london and i would go most days i would go and see them and they had perhaps five or six people on the picket line they weren't
00:34:12 people on the picket line they weren't mass pickets most of the time so there's differences in different sorts of strikes differences in scale but would it be fair to say that on the whole you thought that by pressing management workers were likely to get a better outcome
00:34:23 likely to get a better outcome absolutely and i still do i think that um you know we've seen since the 70s the halving of trade union membership and
00:34:34 halving of trade union membership and that's been generally has gone alongside a much worse condition for many working people and would another example of where considerable passion and resolve
00:34:48 passion and resolve was deployed was in your work confronting racists i think it's worth putting this in context yes that's absolutely true but i think it's worth putting in context that we had in the 70s a very big growth in
00:35:02 we had in the 70s a very big growth in fascist organization in the second half of the 70s we connected that very much with the
00:35:13 we connected that very much with the disappointment that people felt with the labour government and the way in which wages were being cut and general disappointment and there was a very very strong atmosphere there of the sense that the fascists were growing there was a hundred thousand votes for the national front in london in 1977 and that was a
00:35:28 front in london in 1977 and that was a very frightening prospect so i think for most of us we saw racism as a very central issue that we had to confront and we saw it as a way
00:35:37 a way um if racism and fascism was allowed to grow
00:35:40 grow it would seriously weaken working-class organization i think it's also worth saying that this was you know i was of the generation that my parents were my dad was in the um invasion of sicily he was in the navy for five years during
00:35:57 was in the navy for five years during the war one of my uncles lost his leg at nemogen and the war was very very real to to millions of people then and i think the idea that you saw fascism returning in the 1970s was a very frightening thing not just to my
00:36:08 frightening thing not just to my generation but to older generations as well
00:36:09 well and the far right was certainly active on the streets in the 1970s weren't they basically yes and your organization
00:36:21 basically yes and your organization thought it essential to confront those far-right activists on the streets didn't you we did because the the if you look at what they modeled themselves on they modeled themselves very much on the way in which hitler
00:36:33 very much on the way in which hitler organized before he came to power in 1933 and therefore street protests particularly in immigrant areas were very very important to them and hitler himself was quoted as saying that the
00:36:46 himself was quoted as saying that the only thing that could have stopped him was if
00:36:49 was if people had stopped him sufficiently early when he was still relatively part of a relatively small group whereas obviously by 1932-33
00:37:02 obviously by 1932-33 there was a much much bigger force so we thought it was extremely important that we did
00:37:03 we did um confront them and say that they didn't have the right to march and of course they always chose to march through
00:37:10 through areas with big numbers of black and asian people that was a very deliberate intimidatory practice on their part well we'll come back to some some of that activity in more detail later but
00:37:27 that activity in more detail later but what i'd like to do now is tie together the aims that we've explored and the methods
00:37:33 methods uh that you were using to advance towards realizing those aims
00:37:39 aims it was ultimately the expectation or at least the hope that you get to a stage where the working class was strong enough to overthrow existing institutions
00:37:50 overthrow existing institutions well that's as i said to you earlier that was the the aim in the general sense that's what we believe needed to happen in order to um achieve a
00:38:01 happen in order to um achieve a socialist society but we also were very realistic that um this wasn't about to happen and therefore for example we stood in parliamentary elections in the 1970s
00:38:12 parliamentary elections in the 1970s in order to put our arguments across so it
00:38:13 it it wasn't that we were just saying okay this is all going to happen in the next
00:38:25 this is all going to happen in the next few years what we felt was we had to use any avenue to get our arguments across we knew the majority of workers still looked to
00:38:26 looked to labour party and still looked to parliament for change and therefore we engaged in that arena as well thank you i understand that uh at the moment i'm moving into a slightly more
00:38:37 moving into a slightly more hypothetical scenario because i appreciate it never reach that stage uh in the time we're talking about but i it was the ultimate aim to use these
00:38:50 was the ultimate aim to use these methods uh of campaigning to build up the working class to the point where they could overthrow the existing institutions and i think you've
00:39:01 institutions and i think you've previously agreed with that proposition yes and and i think it's just worth saying as well that that is we felt that one of the ways that you did this was by working around campaigns around strikes and so on because that
00:39:12 around strikes and so on because that strengthened confidence and organization among working-class people yeah i appreciate the next step step didn't happen but i i want to ask you this in terms of of what might have been anticipated
00:39:25 might have been anticipated did you anticipate that if the working class had
00:39:27 class had ever
00:39:28 ever become strong enough to overthrow existing institutions that before they were able to do so it was
00:39:40 was overwhelmingly likely that the state would use force to prevent that happening yes we did think that and of course we had the very recent example of the coup in chile where exactly that process had been
00:39:51 process had been had had taken place where a democratically elected government had been overthrown because it had policies which didn't fit with what the
00:40:01 what the chilean ruling class wanted or indeed what the cia wanted who was involved in it as well and the same had happened in spain in the 1930s the same happened in spain in the 1930s and and it's worth just remembering that in
00:40:14 it's worth just remembering that in portugal and spain where you had this the transition to democracy in the mid 1970s there was also people felt there was a threat of that as well there so
00:40:34 was a threat of that as well there so these were real concerns that people had and at that stage would it be fair to say that the socialist workers party would consider the use of force both acceptable and necessary i think again this needs to be looked at in the context if you look at most movements chile is a good example but it's true i think of most revolutions
00:40:47 it's true i think of most revolutions that actually they're not fantastically violent events that actually it's the the revolution if you like this is true in the french revolution it's true um it's true in in the russian revolution
00:40:58 it's true in in the russian revolution in lots of senses that it's the counter revolution where you see much more violence but yes we were we were prepared to defend ourselves and we prepared if necessary to defend the institutions of working-class
00:41:11 institutions of working-class organization and working-class power against
00:41:12 against um any attempt to stop them achieving these things democratically i just want to show you a document could we go to um 1a it's ucpi5018503
00:41:32 for those working from the hard copy it's volume 2 tab 30.
00:41:45 can you see that no where is it that's not the right document
00:41:58 sorry the document i'd like is um it's it's ucpi five zeros one nine five four two
00:42:14 we will have to do something about that um
00:42:19 i can i can show you for these purposes of the document but then the public will not be able to see it so would you like to rise for a moment while we sort this out i fear so i'm afraid we have these um technical difficulties
00:42:33 technical difficulties they're bound to occur okay eventually we'll overcome
00:42:53 uh
00:43:05 yeah can i have it
00:48:30 that's absolutely right sir could i just take a moment now to remind people that when we have short adjournments police would have people sitting at the back not approach witnesses it's important that witnesses give their their evidence alone
00:48:42 mr german the document that's up on the screen
00:48:57 that's up on the screen is a document which is a report about the national student aggregate if we could turn to page 16 within that file please
00:49:14 one of the documents that was attached to this sds report on the national student aggregate in 1983 was this document which appears to be produced by the socialist worker student society
00:49:25 society with the headline fight for a change and if we scroll down
00:49:31 to socialism a good deal of the basic propositions about the swp that i put to you i i got from this document because maybe you need to read a bit more
00:49:49 the bit that i particularly want to put to you um
00:49:57 to you um under the headline workers power the alternative to labor is revolutionary socialism the armed seizure of power by the working class and the creation of a new kind of society
00:50:09 kind of society now following on the questions i asked you before we had to adjourn could you explain please
00:50:20 explain please where the armed seizure of power comes into
00:50:21 into matters well i think i have explained that really that that when people face um when there is a situation where there's a possibility of revolutionary
00:50:34 there's a possibility of revolutionary change or systematic change then this is when you get uh the old establishment which really fights back against that change and that's when you need to be prepared to to do this i mean this isn't you know when i said to
00:50:50 mean this isn't you know when i said to you about maybe reading a bit a bit more on this topic i mean marx made this point in 1871 at the defeat of the paris commune when he then took the conclusion that you couldn't
00:51:04 took the conclusion that you couldn't peacefully overthrow the system that you would have to be prepared for as happened in paris for armies to attack you for people to be um to be killed in large numbers and you would need to defend yourself and that's
00:51:17 need to defend yourself and that's exactly what that says there so i think um
00:51:18 um you know i don't think that's different from what i've what i've been explaining and so to be clear there is no question of the swp using
00:51:33 using arms during the 1970s of course not i mean it
00:51:38 mean it this is you know i think when i said and i i said earlier about the misconceptions about um about what we're saying i think there's this kind of concept of of small groups of people with arms i don't know infiltrating
00:51:53 i don't know infiltrating the police or the army or any of these sorts of things this was never on the agenda and we knew the situation was such with even our largest of several thousand members
00:52:03 members that this would have been completely counterproductive it wouldn't have involved self-emancipation it wouldn't have involved the mass of workers acting on their own behalf it would have been a small i don't know what you want to call it a push or whatever on on by a
00:52:16 it a push or whatever on on by a minority on behalf of a minority and everything you read about our tradition the international socialist the swp all of those
00:52:25 of those actually is very much against that kind of approach it's a difference that goes back
00:52:32 back to the differences that mark's had with bikunin and all sorts of other people it's a it's a fundamental difference and it's one that i've always believed that you'd have to have the mass of people uh
00:52:42 uh fighting for change on their behalf now i want to move to the question of
00:52:54 now i want to move to the question of progress quite accepting it never got to a revolutionary situation in the 1970s and 1980s but there there were fluctuations during this period which i i want to explore with you
00:53:05 i want to explore with you before you even joined the international socialists in in 1968
00:53:11 was there a feeling of excitement amongst revolutionaries that something might be happening given what was occurring in france at the time
00:53:26 was occurring in france at the time very much so i mean i went to france to improve my french in april 1968 and unfortunately missed the you know you could see all the posters and things up there and when i came back and saw all the places i've been on the television that was a
00:53:37 been on the television that was a feeling i think lots and lots of people around the world felt that this was a real chance of change it was an upsurge and
00:53:45 and very very important it did mark the beginning of a period of intense political change in france and elsewhere and
00:53:55 and was there a feeling that the same might be beginning to happen here with the enormous numbers of people who turned out
00:54:01 out especially to the anti-vietnam demonstrations particularly in march and then later on in october of that year they were very big demonstrations
00:54:15 they were very big demonstrations compared to previous demonstrations in britain certainly in my lifetime and they were they were ones that people felt again this was people coming on the streets demonstrating and it marked a new politics which
00:54:26 politics which people had had hope of the labour government which was elected in 64. but this was going beyond what the labour government wanted to do much much more
00:54:43 government wanted to do much much more so and very very clearly in support of a group of people who were fighting against the americans in vietnam and you've explained that the the feeling that started in 1968 carried on for a few years after that would you
00:54:55 on for a few years after that would you link it in to what was happening in 1972 with
00:54:59 with some very big strikes and the minor strike in particular being very successful i think what happened after 68 was you got the
00:55:05 got the development of particularly in britain and italy but other places in the world you got the development of very very big strikes and britain and italy had the two biggest in
00:55:19 britain and italy had the two biggest in in europe and so yes they were connected and it was part of i think again from my generation you had people who are becoming radicalised over political issues if you as you've explained in terms of
00:55:31 explained in terms of apartheid south africa racism those sorts of issues but also this was taking place in the workplace among
00:55:39 among young workers who'd had rising living standards and who expected that they would be able to achieve more and that's what they that's what they were campaigning for so yes i
00:55:51 what they were campaigning for so yes i think those things are connected and it was part of a general wave of political activism economic activism whatever you want to call it in that period from 68 till round about 75 i suppose
00:56:11 round about 75 i suppose the other big thing that happens is in 74 the conservative government falls doesn't it again in the face of serious industrial disputes that's right the heath government was brought down by the second minor strike in 1974.
00:56:28 in 1974. so in that period in the late 60s and early 70s was there a sense that you were getting somewhere with your revolutionary progress there was a sense that more people were breaking from the ideas of labour if you like and looking to the left of labour i think that was a very strong feeling and that
00:56:42 that was a very strong feeling and that was true in the international socialists we recruited lots of workers from car factories from different factories around the country and yes i think there was a sense that
00:56:57 and yes i think there was a sense that people were moving towards the idea that there needed to be a more fundamental change than had been achieved by the labor government i think they were right in that and then
00:57:02 and then as we those of us who were around in those days all know we get to 1979 in the winter of discontent
00:57:14 the winter of discontent before we get on to margaret thatcher um could you help us with in your estimation at what what was the high point
00:57:20 point for your party's aspirations during the 1970s what was the closest you think you got to achieving your goals
00:57:31 goals i think in terms of the aspirations of the international socialists and the swp swp was to become a major force on the left in britain and particularly to
00:57:43 left in britain and particularly to replace the communist party which was then much much bigger than we were still a considerably um large organization but to replace it politically and industrially
00:57:56 politically and industrially and we we achieved some of that but not not obviously all of it and so in terms of progress to a situation where the working class had
00:58:09 working class had the means to overthrow or the will and the support and the motivation to overthrow the institutions of the existing state on a scale of one to ten how what do you think was a high point
00:58:22 how what do you think was a high point what would you score your high point in the 1970s
00:58:25 the 1970s i i mean i think the high point of the 1970s was 1972 with the with the very very big strikes which were very very successful as you say you then had the
00:58:38 successful as you say you then had the second minor strike but i think this is you know when we look at it the the question of whether you can overthrow society whether you can have a revolution doesn't lie with the people who
00:58:51 who term themselves revolutionaries it lies with the people who actually are going to make that revolution themselves this at this time there actually was a revolution going on in portugal which
00:59:02 revolution going on in portugal which went on for something like 18 months and i think people saw that as a kind of model of what could happen elsewhere but that was a very different situation from the situation we faced in britain this
00:59:13 the situation we faced in britain this was a situation where people had lived under fascism for decades and where the colonial wars in angola and mozambique were creating mass disaffection among the army so those
00:59:26 disaffection among the army so those were the particular circumstances so we didn't think we were anywhere close to that at that time i mean i won't impress you if you don't want to put a number on it but so would you prefer to say you
00:59:38 it but so would you prefer to say you weren't anywhere close yes we weren't anywhere close absolutely right
00:59:39 right and then
00:59:42 and then margaret thatcher comes to power in 1979.
00:59:47 1979. would it be fair to say that in in that period late 1970s early 1980s the tide recedes and you thought that
00:59:58 the tide recedes and you thought that revolution seemed a very long way off we had a tory government which was very dedicated to attacking working people we now know that uh there were a whole number
01:00:09 know that uh there were a whole number of the ridley plan all sorts of things where they systematically took on uh the unions and working-class people in order to weaken them and the you had a whole number of other policies that thatcher
01:00:21 thatcher pursued which were also aimed at doing this it's a it's worth remembering though that although this was a situation electorally it was another five years really until
01:00:34 it was another five years really until the defeat of the minor strike in 1984 to 85 where she actually succeeded in in beginning to break the union there were very big protests in the early years of thatcher particularly very big
01:00:48 thatcher particularly very big demonstrations about unemployment um
01:00:49 um very big strikes which went on steel
01:01:00 very big strikes which went on steel strike railway strikes so it wasn't that straight away you you can see there's a big defeat electorally obviously but that wasn't massively surprising given how by that point how unpopular the labour government under callahan was but it it took some years for that
01:01:14 but it it took some years for that defeat to to follow through industrially if you like and that was the crucial point in that was the minor strike i think in 84 to 85. but in terms of where you were going
01:01:25 where you were going in progressing towards your aim would you describe those years in the 1980s as a time in which your progress was moving forwards or backwards
01:01:38 i think we came to a recognition very early on as an organization that the working-class movement was in retreat and we we saw that i think before many
01:01:52 and we we saw that i think before many other organizations on the left for the reasons that i've just explained that were all these strikes all these all these things going on so
01:01:53 so uh we did come to that recognition nonetheless for an organization of our size it was still possible to hold big meetings to
01:02:08 meetings to recruit people to do all those sorts of things so it wasn't like um an instant you know an instant outcome from the uh from the election of thatcher that was and there was still a lot of people who were
01:02:18 were ready to
01:02:19 ready to campaign over a range of things and there were also very big events like the riots in london in 1981 which were a reflection of how there was a large section of the
01:02:33 there was a large section of the population who were disaffected with thatcher's policy so there were all those things that were important for us to take on board so it was a mixed picture i think at the time and it's certainly the case isn't it that you and your organization didn't give up if
01:02:45 your organization didn't give up if anything you redoubled your efforts we certainly didn't give up and we saw it as something this was a big attack on the working class after the successes of the
01:02:54 the early 70s in particular and so we we were determined to keep going yes we did
01:03:06 were determined to keep going yes we did can i move now to a completely different topic it's a question of what external support by which i mean support from outside the country uh the swp um i think didn't have is it's going to
01:03:25 um i think didn't have is it's going to be the theme of my questions is it right to say that no nation state backed the socialist workers party from abroad of course and it's it's just worth reiterating because again i know that sometimes it's put in some
01:03:36 i know that sometimes it's put in some of these reports that our politics was always that we didn't see any other nation state as a kind of model of socialism so we regarded the soviet union at the time for example as state capitalists so as a different form of
01:03:48 capitalists so as a different form of capitalism but nonetheless a capitalist state so yeah we we didn't get support and we didn't seek support from any uh any other state yeah and in fact
01:03:58 fact correct me if i'm wrong but i think it's right isn't it there's no state supporting any trotskyist philosophy to the best of my knowledge there isn't i'd be very surprised if we hadn't heard about it by now
01:04:13 about it by now the soviet union positively hostile to trotskyism yes china the same yes yes
01:04:26 completely different topic again now openness and the degree of openness with which you
01:04:29 which you and your organization conducted its political business in many ways it was an open party wasn't it
01:04:36 it easy to join it was very easy to join and as we see from the evidence from this inquiry we can see that perhaps too easy for some people to to join that
01:04:51 people to to join that but it was we had an open recruitment policy we believed that people didn't need to take an exam to join our organization that you learn in the process of organizing and
01:05:02 in the process of organizing and activity and going to meetings and and things like that so yes we had we had that policy no vetting no party names nothing like that we didn't have party names at all apart from the people again the undercover
01:05:13 the undercover police were the only people who had false names to the best of my knowledge in
01:05:18 in the swp
01:05:20 the swp lots of public meetings i'm sure you've been through all the the
01:05:31 i'm sure you've been through all the the evidence of this lots of public meetings we sold a newspaper which was perfectly open and
01:05:35 open and available to anybody who was prepared to buy it i think the um
01:05:38 um the undercover police had a subscription to it at one point we had a bookshop where people could go and buy not obviously not mainly our books but
01:05:54 not obviously not mainly our books but books of a left persuasion of all sorts of things we were we were an open organisation
01:06:04 lots of opportunity for people who joined your organization to get involved and to participate in the life and the running of the party that's right yes we'll come back to that a little later but there comes a point doesn't there where not everything is done out in the open
01:06:16 open and
01:06:17 and we drew your attention when you were asked to produce a witness statement to the 1978 national delegate conference where a number of security measures were taken weren't they to ensure the
01:06:32 taken weren't they to ensure the confidentiality in particular of various documents about party affairs is that right yes yeah
01:06:41 yeah i want to explore with you what the motivations were for those security measures the first one that i think you've mentioned in your statement is fear of state surveillance
01:06:58 in your own words could you articulate what it was that you didn't want them doing and why
01:07:07 it wasn't particularly a question of the discussions we had in conferences being
01:07:10 being discussions we wouldn't want to have in public
01:07:11 public and usually we would have a report of the conferences in our publications and we would have meetings afterwards which certainly
01:07:20 certainly some non-members could go to which explained what had happened to them but i think we were worried about a number of things firstly the
01:07:29 the threat to particular members of the swp particularly people who were in industry um
01:07:36 um who were under threat of blacklisting and as we know that um that has been uh something which has affected generations now of um of people
01:07:51 affected generations now of um of people on the left and uh some of this has come out in the inquiry and some more no doubt will come out about it so we were very worried about that and we were worried about people's names being you know their their proper names being given or exactly where they
01:08:07 names being given or exactly where they were being given because we knew people were being sacked we knew people were not getting jobs even though they seemed very well qualified for these jobs so yes we were concerned about those things we were also worried in general about state
01:08:21 also worried in general about state surveillance that we didn't believe that the state had the right to um
01:08:25 um to effectively spy on what we were doing in meetings and
01:08:27 and i think it's also fair to say that in that particular period where there was a very big threat from the national front as we'll no doubt come on to talk about that
01:08:38 that we didn't want any infiltration from them or from the far right or anything going to them which could be interpreted as
01:08:49 which could be interpreted as as helpful to them so i think for all those reasons we took that particular stance at that conference in particular and would it be fair to say that you wanted the freedom to associate and
01:09:00 wanted the freedom to associate and express yourself politically without state interference that's right and i think this is something that any party i mean not just parties of this sort of persuasion but i think any party does have private meetings and
01:09:15 party does have private meetings and private discussions i think this is true um
01:09:16 um you know for for any party of any sort they don't have everything out in the open for for perfectly understandable reasons well that might be another separate reason that every organization has some
01:09:27 that every organization has some information that it wishes to keep confidential well financial membership all these sorts of things i think it's perfectly reasonable to do this
01:09:40 perfectly reasonable to do this can we move now to the attitude of the socialist workers party to the police can we start at a philosophical level is it the view of the swp that the state uses the police to divide and rule
01:09:55 uses the police to divide and rule i i'm not sure divide and rule is the right way to to express it i would say that um
01:10:00 um the police are a an organization which is used in order
01:10:11 a an organization which is used in order to ensure that certain sorts of laws are followed and certain sorts of rule is followed but i'm not sure divide and rule is the right way i could describe that i got that from your witness statement all right okay well my apologies my apologies if i'm
01:10:25 apologies my apologies if i'm if i said that so if you want to if you want to clarify exactly what you mean please do
01:10:27 please do all i mean is that i think that when you're talking about the police they act in a certain way to do with certain crimes and there's some crimes that they regard as more important and the some crimes they
01:10:41 more important and the some crimes they regard as less important and of course i think
01:10:45 think what i said about divide and rule was to do with
01:10:51 do with um ethnic minorities in particular is that is that correct from
01:10:54 from the written statement we can have a look it's
01:10:56 it's a paragraph 78 of your witness statement
01:11:10 just find it and make sure i give the people the right reference it's ucpi five zeroes three four seven three nine
01:11:25 seven three nine and once that is up can we have page 33 please oh yeah i see it yeah
01:11:41 could i just clarify or would you want me to wait until people have got it once it's up and people can see it um it's right at the bottom of the page for those following uh the evidence um yes what's is there anything you wish to add uh or nuance to what you've
01:11:52 nuance to what you've yes there i think it may be a kind of um slightly of misreading of the grammar possibly it says also a marxist understanding of the state the
01:12:05 marxist understanding of the state the latter involving how the state uses war the military the police and racism to divide and rule so it's a these are different elements of the state is what i'm saying so so it's about racism it's about war
01:12:16 war they use those as well
01:12:25 fundamentally do you believe that the police is used along with those uh other uh institutions to divide and rule the working class well i think they're certainly used very very often against working class
01:12:46 very very often against working class people in terms of whether it's picket lines whether it's stop and search of black and ethnic minorities yes i do and
01:12:49 and we can turn it up if necessary but over the page of paragraph 82 you say effectively they're used to keep the working class in check yes well i think in the as you say in the philosophical level that's true
01:13:04 level that's true i mean the police force was founded in the early stages of of capitalism so it was very consciously done in that way so what i'd like to know is to what extent did that philosophical analysis political
01:13:18 philosophical analysis political analysis of the role of the police and the state
01:13:19 the state have
01:13:20 have when it came to the swp's treatment and dealings with the police well i think it made us aware of
01:13:32 well i think it made us aware of the way in which the police would behave and that therefore we would we would look at the way that they behaved and see this as part of a wider picture not as the actions of individual police and so would it be fair to say the swp
01:13:47 and so would it be fair to say the swp has a negative view of the police as its starting point i think it's it would be fair to say that it's not an institution that we thought we thought would actually benefit working-class people
01:14:01 working-class people and did that mean that when you were out on the streets forcefully challenging the racists that if the police got in your way they were essentially fair game no i don't think that's the right interpretation of it i think our
01:14:15 interpretation of it i think our interpretation of it was that during these years the police repeatedly allowed the fascists to march in areas where
01:14:23 where they
01:14:24 they deliberately were going in there in order to intimidate and harass local black and asian people so we saw it in
01:14:35 black and asian people so we saw it in that way and we saw it as something we felt wasn't acceptable and i think what's come out from what i've seen so far of the inquiry is actually that there clearly was
01:14:48 was a position that they would protect these these marches and there clearly was a position that they were treated more favorably i would say than than people demonstrating against them and what was
01:15:00 demonstrating against them and what was your organization's response to that so far as how you treated the police was concerned well it wasn't about individual treatment of the police it was about how we thought we had to
01:15:11 was about how we thought we had to respond to this threat of fascism and we we saw this in a number of ways but one of the crucial ways we saw it was actually to say we are going to confront the uh fascists and that the police should not be protecting them
01:15:23 should not be protecting them and if we take it to another context for example if we think about the demonstrations outside the conservative party conference we'll come back to in more detail later but in that sort of
01:15:34 more detail later but in that sort of scenario was the view that the police were
01:15:36 were protecting the elite ruling class well they they clearly do protect conservative party conferences yes they
01:15:51 conservative party conferences yes they do and it's just a matter of fact was it therefore viewed as legitimate to try and push through their cordons and things like that i i don't know which one you're referring to but um people would have pushed through if they felt that they could do so but that
01:16:03 felt that they could do so but that wasn't the main aim of demonstrating and the main aim of demonstrating wasn't against the police it was against the tory party conference so i think that's an important distinction to make yeah
01:16:25 an important distinction to make yeah accepting that distinction though what was the swp's attitude to its members trying to push through a police line at one of its demonstrations well i think that depends entirely on the context
01:16:28 context it depends entirely on the context i mean most demonstrations that people go on this question just simply doesn't arise it does arise over a whole number of things where
01:16:42 number of things where if you look at what has been going on you find that the police are very much protecting the fascists and particularly in the um the the example of fascism but obviously
01:16:55 the example of fascism but obviously there may be other examples as well but particularly with that i think it is i certainly would think if people pushed back
01:17:02 back against that they would be justified in doing so
01:17:03 doing so we'll come back to some specific examples later but for the moment what i'd like to move on to next mr german is united front work um
01:17:13 um again i'll put some basic prop what i think are basic propositions to me and you can tell me where i'm where i'm getting it wrong first of all united from a united front
01:17:30 first of all united from a united front is an attempt to unite the working class on specific issues that's right main aim is to win its demands and it also presents an opportunity for you to spread the message and to recruit
01:17:43 specific examples see and for the transcript i can see you're nodding have i missed anything about the basic structure of a united front well it's a very brief set of propositions here so yeah we'll
01:17:56 set of propositions here so yeah we'll move on to the details we'll move on to what it actually yeah would your work with the anti-nazi league be regarded as united front work i think that was made very clear in my statement that um
01:18:07 statement that um the anti-nazi league was an example of a united front where very large numbers of people would become involved
01:18:19 people would become involved and we would work with those people over the specific aim of defeating the fascists i'm going to put some propositions to you that come from lord haynes evidence because he obviously worked integrally as part of the anl
01:18:30 worked integrally as part of the anl one of the things he said was that the swp had strong power and influence within the anl and provided a lot of organizational support
01:18:41 organizational support and background would you agree with that i think that's true he said that at the time
01:18:53 he said that at the time of the national front demonstration at the by-election in ilford north he had spoken to paul holborough to agree to ensure that swp activists did all that they could to avoid violence
01:19:05 violence do you know anything about that i don't know about the specific i was on the demonstration and i did leaflet in the ilford north by election as i remember but i don't i don't know about the particular discussions between paul
01:19:16 particular discussions between paul holbrook and peter hayne can you recall if any particular line was disseminated through the party membership about violence at that particular demonstration
01:19:27 particular demonstration i can't but but again i don't think people set out on these demonstrations are we going to have violence they set out on the demonstrations to stop the national front and
01:19:39 the national front and in most cases this would have been something which didn't involve a high degree of violence if any violence it depended very very much on as i can see it the police response
01:19:57 as i can see it the police response because nearly always the national front demonstrations weren't particularly big they were you know if you look at the pictures you can see in lewisham you can see in southall you can see in all these they're not particularly big they're a few hundred what is
01:20:09 few hundred what is noticeable is the police presence around them and that's and to my recollection in ilford
01:20:15 ilford that wasn't the same degree i can't remember exactly but i don't i don't think it was to the same degree so i think
01:20:21 think this idea was saying let's be violent on
01:20:31 this idea was saying let's be violent on this demonstration or we're not going to be violent on this demonstration it's really a misconception of how we approach the demonstrations final proposition the swp had a reputation for far-left sectarianism um but he thought that um
01:20:44 um but he thought that um your party had curbed that tendency so far as the anl was concerned i appreciate that might be a slightly pejorative uh view that he expressed but i wanted your reaction to it well i think it's peter hayne's view i think people in the swp would have said
01:20:56 people in the swp would have said actually far from being sectarian with the anti-nazi league we really tried to broaden it out we really saw it as a very very important initiative and one that would and i think did transform the political
01:21:11 and i think did transform the political situation in britain because it was very influential in weakening the fascists and with all the consequences that have since maybe negative consequences that have
01:21:22 maybe negative consequences that have since happened that we haven't we didn't have
01:21:25 have a growing strength of the fascists and that was something that was very important to us i think peter haynes may be being a bit you know a bit unfair on this that we were
01:21:36 were sectarian and everything else but not on not on the anti-nazi league i think we were the people who actually very much had the idea that we wanted it to be as broad as possible which is why it involved people not just like peter
01:21:48 involved people not just like peter hayne but all sorts of other people who were
01:21:54 were a long way away politically from the swp i'm going to ask you about some a selection of other uh activities which i think fall under the heading united front and
01:22:09 heading united front and uh to explore the role of the swp in them first of all can we start with school kids against the nazis to what extent was its creation and existence um
01:22:16 um down to the socialist workers party well i think the socialist workers party was involved in school kids against the nazis we had school student members
01:22:27 school student members who organised we were involved in the national union of school students which i think was around the same kind of period and there was a radicalisation among school students because
01:22:39 among school students because again the national front and it's a different situation from the one we have now in london certainly but in london there was quite a lot of support from the national front in a whole range of
01:22:51 the national front in a whole range of places but including in schools and so it's very very important to be involved in challenging that but of course
01:23:06 you know what it's like in schools i mean you will have a very small number of people who were swp and it will be much wider forces who began to organize against the national front i mean how would you describe the level
01:23:18 i mean how would you describe the level of influence or control that the swp had within scan i would say it was they had some influence but so did all
01:23:29 they had some influence but so did all sorts of other people i would say it was perfectly it was a the swp were a minority in scan women's voice uh essentially the same questions to what extent was women's voice the creation of the swp
01:23:43 voice the creation of the swp well women's voice is a is a slightly different
01:23:50 different project from what i would call a genuine united front it was it was aimed at being for people who didn't necessarily want to join the swp but who saw themselves as socialist
01:24:01 but who saw themselves as socialist women and people who wanted to organize and of course when we set it up there was
01:24:02 was a lot of
01:24:03 a lot of women's organization taking place at that time throughout the 1970s there were a whole range of issues but it was always connected to the swp and it was
01:24:17 always connected to the swp and it was always quite openly connected to the swp and so
01:24:18 and so i i don't think it really fits into the model of a united front in the same way as the anl or indeed the right to work campaign it was it it wasn't like a women's
01:24:29 women's campaign
01:24:30 campaign around abortion for example it was a general socialist organization of women rock against racism
01:24:44 rock against racism well that's different again it was rock against racism was formed by a handful of people in i think 1976 after david bowie made his racist comments at the concert and i think your statement said eric clapton
01:24:58 think your statement said eric clapton sorry eric clapton that's a big mistake isn't it sorry about that um yeah and it was eric clapton um but
01:25:06 but that was a few people some of them were in the swp um like david widgery and um a couple of other people but a few of them weren't so it was a sort of mixture
01:25:17 of mixture and they organized gigs and they got huge support for that and they obviously were central to the carnival that we had in 1978 in victoria park um
01:25:28 um that's what they did but so again i don't quite see rock against racism as again a classic united front it was a great initiative and
01:25:42 great initiative and they still do things with it and there's a lot of very very good histories of it now um
01:25:44 now um but it was it was very much based obviously on the music and that was that was the center of it so it didn't have sort of mass membership or anything or didn't it wasn't organized along those
01:25:56 didn't it wasn't organized along those sorts of lines you didn't go to a rock against racism meeting every week or something like that it was a different sort of setup thank you now i'm going to put another of our witnesses takes on uh some of
01:26:14 of our witnesses takes on uh some of your work uh to you for your comment it's from piers corbin uh
01:26:15 uh he said that from his memory the international socialists were normally very intent on controlling whatever they were doing
01:26:29 were doing so they would have things which we would describe or i would describe as fronts so you know they would have some campaign or other call something but really it was just being controlled completely by the international socialists
01:26:44 by the international socialists is that a fair observation in relation to any of your work i don't think so and i don't know why peers would know particularly i mean he didn't really work with us as far as i know about anything and
01:26:54 and my only contact with him was when he they organized a squat in and no doubt he told you about this i expect in thomas square you know they had a big
01:27:06 thomas square you know they had a big squat there in the early 1970s but as far as i know he never worked with this over anything much at all so it's obviously his opinion but i don't think it's correct
01:27:15 correct um can i move now to cnd and there was some swp involvement within cnd wasn't there um
01:27:24 um was that overt or surreptitious i don't understand this lie i mean i this line of questioning about overt and surreptitious
01:27:38 surreptitious we didn't go secretly into cnd we were involved in it in so far as we were involved in it at different periods um quite openly and we sold our paper and we contributed in meetings and went on demonstrations in exactly the way that
01:27:50 demonstrations in exactly the way that we would have done over over any other campaign and of course cnd was very big in
01:27:56 in the late 50s early 60s when before my time but is members were involved in it then um and in the early 80s it was very big round green and common and around
01:28:10 round green and common and around the threat of missiles cruise missiles in in europe so we were involved in it then i went on the trans-pennine march and uh
01:28:22 uh over easter i think 1981. um but
01:28:23 but it was a completely open operation we didn't hide it from anybody it so i i don't quite understand that why do you think it was kind of
01:28:38 kind of i just asked the question okay sorry yeah fair enough um but on that on that line is it fair to say that um cnd
01:28:53 cnd was nowhere near being controlled by the swp there's just no question of that absolutely not a very you know no involvement at that central level or at a an organizational level it was a it was local initiatives that people took
01:29:02 took now we've seen some evidence that you thought that cnd would be more effective if it was more militant could you explain to us what you in what ways you thought cnd ought to become
01:29:19 ways you thought cnd ought to become more militant i think this was about partly it's a kind of philosophical thing about cnd's approaches is very much or what has been traditionally about
01:29:27 about non-violent direct action sitting down and and so on which we took part in but we wanted it to be more tied in
01:29:38 in to trade unions we wanted to be more tied into
01:29:40 tied into perhaps more militant action but particularly in terms of working class action that was the
01:29:48 the um that was the aim really that we wanted it to be tied to to that kind of issue rather than just being sort of individual protest that was how we wanted it to be more i suppose collective if if that makes sense to you what sort
01:30:02 if if that makes sense to you what sort of methods did you think they should be using
01:30:03 using do you think they ought to be demonstrating more aggressively or something like that not more aggressively i think we thought that the demonstrations they could be we could have more of the demonstrations they could have
01:30:17 they could have um they could be tied into other issues and
01:30:21 and and so on but uh these were you know these were fairly small tactical differences really about what we thought was the best um the best way of of operating did you think they ought to get involved in
01:30:34 think they ought to get involved in direct action well they were involved in direct action i don't think you can accuse cnd of not being you know going right back to the 50s they there were a hundred of them arrested one day when they sat down in
01:30:45 one day when they sat down in trafalgar square i think we've got quite a lot of evidence yeah
01:30:48 yeah but what i'm interested in is essentially well
01:30:54 well was he were you and where other members of your party have always pressing for more of that yes yes i think that's uh we would have liked to have seen more of that and more
01:31:06 that and more things where we actually linked up more with trade unions which we thought was important so perhaps militant isn't perhaps the right way to look at it because many cnd members did and still do get arrested for some
01:31:21 did and still do get arrested for some of this um you know they go to faz lane for example where dryden is they sit down and they get carried off and and get arrested that's one of the so i don't you can say they're not involved in that kind of thing i think perhaps we wanted it to be more central to
01:31:39 wanted it to be more central to uh to working class organization that's perhaps the best way i can describe it can we move now to ireland and the swp's position on um the troubles
01:31:51 the troubles you said in your witness statement that you supported the right of the provisional ira to act but you did not support bombing or terrorism as a
01:32:01 as a tactic
01:32:02 tactic could we look please um at the document which is ucpi five zeros 15 15994
01:32:22 and that's volume 3 tab 35.
01:32:38 and could we go to page 100 and it's this is a 1980 report on the 1982 national delegate conference if we could go please to page
01:32:55 114. now this is part a document that has been attached to an sds report a very large sds report about
01:33:06 about that year's national delegate conference this is
01:33:10 this is one of your organization's documents which has been taken or copied by the sds and reported could you help us with what a drafting commission is as a document
01:33:26 is as a document yes it's a um it's a um a group of people get together and draft it and then it's voted on it's like a resolution i suppose right well can we look at the first two paragraphs please
01:33:37 paragraphs please it's very difficult to read i think it says this conference reiterates its support for the revolutionary position on terrorism
01:33:49 revolutionary position on terrorism individual terrorism as trotsky pointed out is counter-revolutionary in effect strengthening the hand of the very class enemy against whom it is directed the
01:34:05 enemy against whom it is directed the actions and recent threats of the inla and the birmingham pub bombings are an
01:34:06 an expressive example at the same time revolutionaries are not against violence as such we make quote a fundamental distinction between individual terrorism and the
01:34:18 individual terrorism and the revolutionary terrorism that the oppressed masses may employ against their oppressors has occurred for example in the russian revolution or vietnam
01:34:31 vietnam does that accurately explain why it was you were against um the way that the provisional ira were using terrorism and the circumstances in which you as an organization did think that the use of
01:34:45 organization did think that the use of force would be justified yes i think it explains that um individual terrorism is something which is counterproductive and we very much stand in that tradition that we don't think it it
01:34:57 think it it does anything except to create more repression normally at the same time as i've explained already if you look at various situations where people are facing
01:35:09 situations where people are facing attack whether it's the vietnam war or whether it's the example used here the russian revolution but i use the portuguese revolution there's another
01:35:20 revolution there's another example i think it does express the the different aspects of our position thank you and if we go to the last two paragraphs if we could move to the bottom of the page please
01:35:32 bottom of the page please i think they read however unpalatable their politics which are crudely nationalist based upon class alliances which have their own inevitable tensions the armed republican movement is an
01:35:45 the armed republican movement is an essential component in the struggle to get the british out of ireland we have to cope with that fact at the same time as we struggle to build a revolutionary fragment in the north
01:35:58 revolutionary fragment in the north with the help of our comrades in the south
01:36:06 south 99 of socialists in northern ireland support armed struggle we should too the party must hammer out its attitude if possible towards splitting the protestant working class
01:36:17 protestant working class from its repulsive sleeping partner the orange business community of the north if it thinks that that is impossible it should say so now i'd like to dwell mainly on the
01:36:29 now i'd like to dwell mainly on the first half of that second paragraph the proposition that the socialist workers party should support the arms struggle was it the swp's position that it did
01:36:42 was it the swp's position that it did support the arms struggle well if you look at the um what i put in the witness statement and the the whole question was that we had a position which was
01:36:56 position which was unconditional but not uncritical support for the
01:36:57 for the provisional ira what that meant was we supported their right to fight against the northern state and against british imperialism at the same time we were extremely critical of their methods and
01:37:15 extremely critical of their methods and i think the the wording of this actually makes that point that we we don't agree with
01:37:15 with the politics of the ira and we don't agree with the methods that they used at the same time we recognized that in the north of ireland this was a crucial component of
01:37:31 ireland this was a crucial component of people fighting against uh british rule at the time so those are the those are the
01:37:34 the the two aspects of it i think which are important to understand i know it's a it's i think sometimes it's a difficult concept for people to understand that you can
01:37:48 you can support but also criticize but i think it in in this case it was absolutely necessary to have that position well
01:37:52 well the expression of support for the arms struggle
01:37:57 struggle at the bottom of that document i'd like to explore a bit further into
01:37:59 into against what targets did the swp support the use of violence by the provisional ira
01:38:10 violence by the provisional ira well it would have been against targets of the
01:38:14 of the northern state that would have been the the targets but we weren't about supporting individual actions we didn't agree with any of those you know the bombings and the various
01:38:25 you know the bombings and the various things that that took place and actually it says in this document that we struggled to build a revolutionary fragment as it's called in the north because it was extremely difficult for
01:38:38 because it was extremely difficult for socialist ideas to get a hearing in the in the situation in the 70s that obviously you had this you had the arm struggle going on you had on the one hand the um the provisional ira you also had on the other hand the um
01:38:49 um the uda and other loyalist paramilitaries backed up very often by the police and the army so those were the that was the situation we found ourselves in in ireland we wanted to
01:39:01 ourselves in in ireland we wanted to build a socialist organization like we had in britain but it was extremely hard to make that breakthrough and still i think still even today i think it's
01:39:16 think still even today i think it's you know the whole way which nationalist and unionist politics divide up it's still difficult to do that could we have a look please that's another document it's ucpi five zeros nineteen five four three
01:39:29 five four three volume three tab forty seven
01:39:46 now this is a an sds report dated the 4th of october of 1983.
01:39:57 it appears to be about an individual but what i'm interested in is paragraph four
01:40:00 four where it says during a recent central committee social at the home of chris harmon and we've redacted for privacy somewhat the worse for drink
01:40:12 for drink spoke about the time he lived in belfast and his companions with individual associated
01:40:23 with individual associated with shin fein and the provisional irish republican army he stated that at that time he was a member of the international marxist group without mentioning names he said he was trusted by pyra
01:40:34 by pyra and remains fully sympathetic to their cause
01:40:36 cause questions i have arising from that is how common were such views within the swp
01:40:44 swp well i wouldn't accept that that's an accurate statement apart from anything else i don't think it's true the person you're referring to was involved in
01:40:56 involved in the campaign over the h blocks for the right of the ira prisoners to have political status which was a big issue he was also involved in the campaign over the hunger strikes which
01:41:09 hunger strikes which uh in 1981 which i can assure you was a very very big and well supported campaign throughout ireland throughout the island of of ireland so i don't agree with this idea that he was
01:41:20 agree with this idea that he was you know fully sympathetic to their cause that wasn't true he had the same sort of criticisms that i've made of their
01:41:27 their of their behavior so i i mean i don't think you can necessarily take this as a well i think in this case you certainly can't take it as anything but gossip which isn't particularly accurate
01:41:42 gossip which isn't particularly accurate so he was involved in irish politics but had the same criticisms as the rest of us would have had and in terms of connections direct connections and contact with the provisional ira the report says it was happened when the person was a member of the img to what
01:41:56 person was a member of the img to what extent did the socialist workers party have direct contact with members of the provisional irs i don't think we did at all and that shin fein was obviously the political wing and as you know shin feigns now
01:42:11 wing and as you know shin feigns now you know is on course to is is the major party in the north and is on course to be in the south so things have changed very very
01:42:17 very very dramatically since the early 80s on on that uh on that situation but i think it's it's fair to say our people in ireland would have known people in chimpane just as everybody
01:42:33 chimpane just as everybody who worked in politics in the north of ireland and in the south would have known people in shin fame but provisional ra we wouldn't have had they wouldn't have wanted to have contact with us they had a totally different aim a military aim which was which was
01:42:45 aim a military aim which was which was different to what we were doing so they wouldn't have done now
01:42:49 now you've touched upon this already in some of your answers but i want to explore the ways in which your organization did advance its beliefs in relation to ireland as i understand it it's
01:43:00 ireland as i understand it it's supporting the troops out movement getting involved in campaigns such as the hunger strike and the h blocks and so forth and protesting against the actions of the
01:43:15 protesting against the actions of the army in northern ireland have i missed anything significant i think by the late 70s and early 80s that's what the main emphasis would have been the troops out movement was regarded as
01:43:28 movement was regarded as again as a united front which we were involved in and which was it was important to our work i don't think it was central to our work particularly at that time but yes those were the sorts of things we were involved in and i think
01:43:44 think probably right at the start of your time in the is internment was a big issue wasn't it internment was a very big issue and that obviously by the late 70s you're talking about the you know the h blocks campaign and the and the hunger strikes those were the and the hunger strikes
01:44:00 and the hunger strikes were a very big political issue so we were we were involved in protesting uh about those and about the right to get political status did the fwp provide any financial
01:44:12 did the fwp provide any financial assistance to any paramilitary group no
01:44:13 no did the swp provide any practical assistance to any paramilitary group in carrying out its operation no it wouldn't have done so is that a convenient time to take the
01:44:26 so is that a convenient time to take the morning break yes it would be uh we will break now for a quarter of an hour and resume therefore if my watch is right at the quarter two
02:02:47 yes thank you sir mr german we're going to move on now to the relationship between the socialist workers party and the far right and can we start please with events in red lion square in
02:02:57 in 1984
02:03:00 1984 74 sorry 74. um
02:03:03 um the
02:03:07 the your witness statement makes clear that you thought that free speech was a concept that you didn't think should apply uh to fascists and
02:03:24 and was it in line with that belief that the counter protest was organized to shut down the ability of the fascists to organize well the um the
02:03:34 the protest was because the national front had been given conway hall as a
02:03:40 hall as a meeting place and we felt this was unacceptable for the reasons that you you outline that we unlike with everybody else where i'm in favor of free speech i think with the
02:03:53 favor of free speech i think with the fascists we make an exception because their whole aim is to destroy democratic society and to deny free speech to all sorts of people to people on the
02:04:04 to all sorts of people to people on the left to migrants and so on so yes there was a
02:04:11 was a again it wasn't just the swp there was a large number of uh organizations and groups that were that organized that demonstration in red line square i'm just so we are clear it's it's not just your personal opinion this was the swp's house line
02:04:27 this was the swp's house line yes and i've got a um i wrote an article in the 80s where i explained this which i can make available to you if you if that would be useful thank you it would um
02:04:33 um the build-up to the
02:04:40 the demonstration and presumably the swp was putting out loudly and clearly the message that there was going to be a demonstration against the fascists and it would like a big turnout
02:04:56 big turnout that's right and we were at the lse which is just down the road so we um
02:04:59 um we mobilized in the university and uh in other places to get people there yeah and there would be no doubt in anybody's mind what the purpose of that demonstration was namely to confront the fascists well what we wanted to do was
02:05:18 fascists well what we wanted to do was to stop them meeting in conway hall so if we prevented them from getting in that would have been a main aim
02:05:25 so how obvious was it
02:05:26 was it that there was going to be trouble it was very obvious to me i walked up i must have gone to the lse at the beginning it was a saturday obviously
02:05:39 beginning it was a saturday obviously but i walked up from the lse which is only 10 15 minutes walk up to redland square and everywhere you could see police vans all the side streets
02:05:50 see police vans all the side streets lincoln's in fields all round everywhere there were loads and loads of police fans so i thought there's going to be a huge policing issue here and we're going to be stopped from trying to demonstrate and that was indeed what happened it was a very very
02:06:03 indeed what happened it was a very very heavy policing operation and i've never seen before that i'd never seen anything like it i have since then on a few occasions but not many
02:06:15 occasions but not many and i'm not surprised that somebody died on that day because it was a it was very very heavily policed and in a very violent way uh now you're you're speaking and as i
02:06:26 uh now you're you're speaking and as i understand it about the mourning of the demonstration could i dial you back a few days before the demonstration how obvious was it that there was going to be trouble
02:06:37 be trouble well i don't think we were looking for trouble we were looking to stop the fascists from marching the police were determined to ensure that the fascists went in and they were prepared to have a huge
02:06:49 they were prepared to have a huge policing operation in order to justify it and i'm afraid that was the pattern we saw again and again in the 70s let's imagine the police didn't turn up at all
02:07:04 at all the fascists want to organize you want to stop them organizing surely that was a recipe for trouble well i think it would be more like the example that i gave in my witness statement about haggerston school where
02:07:15 school where the
02:07:19 the fascists had been allowed to meet in the school hall in hackney we organized a protest outside but many of us also got into the hall and occupied the main room and stopped them from being able to have their meeting and if the police hadn't
02:07:34 their meeting and if the police hadn't turned up at all i guess that's the sort of thing that would have happened we'd have occupied the place or stop them getting in and they'd have gone away
02:07:42 gone away is it your position then that prior to the day of the demonstration uh it was not a foregone conclusion that there would be trouble
02:07:52 trouble i think we thought it was going to be a big
02:07:55 big issue because the fascists were meeting in a big hall i mean it seats 400 or so people so we thought it would be a big issue but we didn't we didn't go looking for trouble we weren't the people who created the trouble
02:08:09 now in your witness statement and i think just now you've essentially put the blame fairly and squarely on the police um
02:08:18 um there are others who came to a different conclusion lord scarman
02:08:23 scarman who inquired into events at
02:08:34 who inquired into events at uh red lion square fairly and squarely put the blame on the img as i'm sure you're aware do you accept that the img and i'm quoting now assaulted the police in an unexpected unprovoked and viciously violent attack no i don't think that's
02:08:48 violent attack no i don't think that's an accurate description of what happened and
02:08:54 and as you know the person who was killed on the demonstration was an img member um and they were demonstrating perfectly acceptably it was the police who were determined to stop people
02:09:07 who were determined to stop people getting near the hall that was their aim and they continued this when
02:09:08 when the
02:09:11 the there was fighting after a while going on in the square and when people retreated the police pursued them and started attacking them with truncheons they threw demonstrators over the
02:09:24 they threw demonstrators over the railings they used to have the you know those underpasses they used to have which were in fearboards road when people were moving away and trying to get away from the police they were pursuing them so i don't think that's an accurate or a fair description of what happened
02:09:35 happened now i want to move to a very different way in which the tension between the far left and the far right was playing out on the streets
02:09:46 on the streets and the
02:09:52 and the victims of the racist attacks that were going on at the time could we have up please ucpi
02:10:05 ucpi five naught one zero six five nine this is not in the bundle sir and it's paragraph four that i'm interested in this is a a report by an sds officer from 1976 from the 13th of july
02:10:23 from 1976 from the 13th of july and it's about a meeting which is dealing with racism in hackney paragraph 4 says several members of the audience then participated in a discussion on racialism in hackney but no firm
02:10:39 racialism in hackney but no firm conclusions were reached however and i'm using the words in the document and in the audience stated that an organization called the west indian defense committee based in brixton was presently engaged in arming with knives and koshers
02:10:55 in arming with knives and koshers as many black people in brixton as possible
02:11:02 possible and that this organization was fully prepared to meet physical racialism in the area with physical attacks although no decisions were made by the hackney branch of the international socialists
02:11:15 socialists several members expressed both their approval of such actions and their regret that anti-racialist groups were not sufficiently organized in hackney
02:11:25 was it the case that there were some in your organization who did approve of uh arming with knives and koshers and so forth
02:11:36 forth i i'm say i think this is a very bizarre report i mean it comes to the conclusion that nothing was decided it says
02:11:48 that nothing was decided it says it says that several members expressed their approval of such actions well maybe but that clearly wasn't the dominant view i'd be very surprised if people expressed their approval for those actions because we always tried to look at
02:11:58 look at the fight against racism as a collective issue and not just simply whether people could physically defend themselves as many people in the black and asian communities who have repeatedly defended
02:12:12 communities who have repeatedly defended themselves against individual attack and i would absolutely support their right to do it in these circumstances but it wasn't something that we ever saw as an
02:12:24 wasn't something that we ever saw as an effective way of building an anti-racist campaign so i must say i regard the accuracy of this statement as not particularly high from my experience of knowing people in hackney and and of the time perhaps i can put it this way i'm
02:12:37 time perhaps i can put it this way i'm not suggesting this was a party line or anything like that but what i want to explore with you is were there hot heads within your ranks i think
02:12:47 i think this kind of line of questioning i mean you know you you look at the these documents which are written a long long time ago were the hot heads in the ranks they
02:12:58 were the hot heads in the ranks they don't really have any you know time and again when i've looked at all these things there's no real evidence of this coming from these statements and therefore i take them with a very this type of statement with a very big pinch of salt and of course people react
02:13:10 of salt and of course people react differently of course somebody might say well good for them but that doesn't mean they would do it themselves and it doesn't mean that they saw it in that way and i think it's important to understand that when we talk about
02:13:23 understand that when we talk about fighting against a racist we we always try to stress that it should be a collective thing that should be done through the unions through mass campaigns rather than this kind of individual action
02:13:36 individual action yeah we can take that document down now thank you could i just comment as well about the i mean the use of language is terrible isn't it well and even in the 1970s people didn't talk
02:13:47 even in the 1970s people didn't talk like that for the most part you know i just think it's worth saying um
02:13:54 the i want to zoom out a bit but staying on the question of hot heads
02:14:03 were you conscious in the way that you acted within the central committee that what you said might influence the more volatile of your members
02:14:12 what we tried to do as a central committee was to give a line to the organization which the organization followed or didn't i mean people didn't always do exactly what we said in the positive sense so in other words if you said we
02:14:26 sense so in other words if you said we want you to go to a picket line at six in the morning maybe half the people you ask will go and the other half won't but generally we accepted that that was people would accept the kind of position we put forward and we very much stress
02:14:38 forward and we very much stress particularly over this because we knew the nature of the society at the time we knew there were a lot of individual attacks and this is a dangerous time
02:14:50 attacks and this is a dangerous time it's a dangerous time for socialists as well as for black and asian people because if you had your badge on if you were getting on the tube to stratford you were very likely to get attacked physically by a fascist on the tube that was the situation we
02:15:04 on the tube that was the situation we were in so we were very careful that we didn't want this to become a kind of individual gang fight between left and right that would have been a step backwards in my view can we move now to 1977 and lewisham
02:15:20 in the run-up to the demonstration and counter demonstration at lewisham what was the line that the central committee was putting out
02:15:33 committee was putting out well i wasn't on the central committee at the time but the line that we were putting out was that it was going to be a very very important demonstration it was clear this was clear to the people of lewisham it was clear to
02:15:49 of lewisham it was clear to the left in general and it was clear to the fascists they saw this as um
02:15:50 um and they
02:15:54 and they termed it very much as about mugging and about violence of black people in in lewisham and we knew this was going to be a very important demonstration so we did encourage people to come as i've said at the time there was a
02:16:07 as i've said at the time there was a by-election which we were standing in in lady wood in birmingham and i was up there for three weeks um working on that by-election i would have gone to it if i'd been in london but as we were we decided
02:16:19 we were we decided that there was going to be a fascist march in birmingham because they were standing in the election as well so we stayed in birmingham and had a counter protest to that but i think
02:16:30 counter protest to that but i think otherwise i would have been on it and so would a great many other people thousands of people came on it and you know so i think we saw it as an important
02:16:39 important in a way we saw it as important in terms of
02:16:40 of making it clear that the fascists weren't going to be able to march through those kind of areas and to use particular issues in order to strengthen their position
02:16:51 their position can you recall whether the party line was to encourage people to attend the alcaraf demonstration in the morning or the gathering at lewisham
02:17:03 or the gathering at lewisham at the bottom of louisiana way or both people went to both or some people went to both but we said for people who
02:17:16 to both but we said for people who aren't aware this was a demonstration that was held away from where the fascists were going to march so we said fine but we think it's important that we actually do go to where they are demonstrating and we attempt to block their march and that was what we wanted
02:17:28 their march and that was what we wanted to do we were quite open about this and that we could see the value of the alcav demonstration but we also thought
02:17:39 demonstration but we also thought just doing that and not trying to prevent them from marching would be a mistake and so this is um is it another expression of the swp's
02:17:50 expression of the swp's policy of closing down the far right's right to freedom of expression we regarded it as important particularly that they weren't allowed to march through these areas and they didn't
02:18:08 through these areas and they didn't march around areas like this right they didn't march in the well-to-do areas they went to the poorest areas with large
02:18:09 large migrant populations and they deliberately chose these areas and they did so for a specific reason they did so because they wanted to intimidate the
02:18:21 because they wanted to intimidate the local population and it was remarkable that after most of these demonstrations you would have an increase in attacks on black and ethnic minorities so we felt that was a very important thing to do yes
02:18:32 do yes now the
02:18:35 now the inquiries had some evidence of some film of
02:18:36 of what happened and the main trouble seems to have started as the
02:18:45 the national front demonstration moved into the main road onto the a2 and bricks were thrown at them and the police is that your understanding of what happened i think that's that's definitely the the case that
02:19:00 that's definitely the the case that nobody is saying that lewisham there wasn't
02:19:01 wasn't fighting there was fighting but the question is why was the fighting that the local community the local young people particularly but backed up by nearly everybody
02:19:13 nearly everybody in their community saw it as important that these people weren't allowed to march so yes i mean what i want to give you the opportunity to comment on in particular was this seems to have been an instance
02:19:26 this seems to have been an instance where the violence was initiated from the left wing i don't think so i think i think you have to see it as the violence is initiated by the people who decide they're going to have a hostile march through this area
02:19:43 have a hostile march through this area and by and it's it's allowed to happen by the police and those two things i think are important and what the demonstration as i say wasn't there but the demonstration as i understand it tried to block the road and tried to stop them
02:19:59 stop them getting through and i think that was an absolutely justified thing to do and
02:20:03 and would you condone the throwing of bricks at people
02:20:07 at people not particularly no but i do understand why people get into the state that they get in over these things i think lots of young people at the time were very very angry about this particularly in those areas and
02:20:20 and the truth is that they felt that this was the only way they could express themselves i think it would be much better if the police hadn't protected this march and then we wouldn't have had these kind of problems
02:20:33 these kind of problems was one of the consequences of confronting the fascists on the streets that violence and trouble was inevitable well again i mean you know i think this this kind of way
02:20:47 you know i think this this kind of way of approaching it is it seems to me that a lot of the questioning this morning has been about my politics rather than about
02:20:54 about what might be wrong with other people's politics or indeed the role of the undercover police which is the aim of the inquiry and i think that that's slightly regrettable really that it's going like this
02:21:06 going like this the idea we're responsible for the problem because we identify a real problem of the of the fascist marching and what was clearly policy that
02:21:16 that whoever decided it that the metropolitan police would defend and as i said to you early you only have to look at the pictures to see to what extent
02:21:29 pictures to see to what extent the policing was involved the number of police in the in red line square the number of police at lewisham the number of police at southall which still when i look at the pictures even now takes my breath away
02:21:41 breath away when you look at all of those then to say
02:21:42 say it's our fault that the response just seems to me is completely wrong i'm not suggesting i'm not in fact i'm this question isn't about fault it's it was literally
02:21:53 was literally what it said the consequence of coming out to confront the fascists on the streets was that violence was inevitable yes and the consequence of not coming out
02:22:04 consequence of not coming out on the streets would be that there'll be more attacks on black people i mean this is a time where black people were being killed where
02:22:16 black people were being killed where people were being seriously attacked all the time this was the whole atmosphere in these areas it was the atmosphere in east london it was the atmosphere where i lived all of those things
02:22:29 i lived all of those things the consequence if we hadn't done it would have been much much worse for people
02:22:30 people can i
02:22:38 can i remind you of a passage from a book you wrote people's history of london for your account of this event it's doc 083
02:23:09 um the relevant passage reads an important turning point came in lewisham south london in the summer of 1977. most of the left local trade union organizations in the communist party held a rally in opposition to a national front march the majority planned to
02:23:24 front march the majority planned to march at some distance from the national front's proposed route but those who thought the national front should be physically confronted
02:23:38 should be physically confronted mainly the socialist workers party and black youth from the local community went on to gather at a point on the national front route where they thought the march could be blocked
02:23:42 blocked despite a heavy police presence the anti-fascists did indeed break through the police cordon and disrupt the national front march mounted police charged the protesters
02:23:57 mounted police charged the protesters and riot shields were used for the first time in mainland britain fighting with the police lasted long after the national front had gone home the establishment's disapproval was shrill
02:24:10 shrill and even the left left-wing leader labour leader michael foote described those who had broken up the national front march as red fascists it was a watershed which led to the formation of the anti-nazi league
02:24:26 formation of the anti-nazi league do you stand by that passage yes i do um
02:24:30 um coming back to the question i asked you earlier if trouble
02:24:33 trouble was inevitable it was the police's duty wasn't it to police public disorder but that isn't what happened at lewisham and i think
02:24:46 what happened at lewisham and i think i think two things i think firstly when i say that they wanted to block the march that's exactly what i've been trying to explain to you i also think you have to put this in the context and perhaps
02:24:57 perhaps if people are interested to read the rest of the chapter which talks about the situation that developed particularly after enoch powell's speech rivers of blood speech in 1968 the
02:25:08 rivers of blood speech in 1968 the growth of the fascists in the early 1970s and the way in which it needed the fascists needed to be confronted so i think this is the context that you
02:25:21 i think this is the context that you have to look at it in and the idea that this is about simply that the police were impartially trying to keep order just isn't true it just simply is not the case if you look at it their role was very very much to
02:25:35 at it their role was very very much to protect the fascist march and this was something that i think was helped to lead to any disorder can i now put a specific report to you please it's mps-0732-886
02:25:54 not in the bundle sir
02:26:11 so that i can identify it later can you um
02:26:13 um give me
02:26:17 give me its date please uh it's 1 of september 1977.
02:26:26 1977. it's page four that i'd like please this is a police report compiled after
02:26:27 after um
02:26:30 um the
02:26:31 the event
02:26:35 event it's the very bottom paragraph that i'm interested in finally it is known that one member of the swp was armed with an air pistol at
02:26:48 the swp was armed with an air pistol at lewisham which given the opportunity he would have used to shoot at the police and members of the national front an asian man thought to be an swp supporter had in his possession a book
02:27:00 supporter had in his possession a book which had the center cut out to conceal a knife
02:27:08 a knife do you have any knowledge of either the air pistol or the knife no i don't and i'm i'm not at all sure that these are accurate reports either i mean this is something we've been told is the case there's absolutely no evidence for it and i think when we look
02:27:22 evidence for it and i think when we look at some of the reports it's like some of the ones we've talked about previously this is things which are hearsay or just um they talk about but there's absolutely no evidence of this at all or
02:27:36 absolutely no evidence of this at all or indeed that anything happened with these weapons if they did indeed exist um
02:27:36 um the answer to this question may be obvious but it's important that you answer it in your own words assuming for the purposes of this question that this is true
02:27:48 question that this is true can i take it that this wouldn't have been condoned by the central committee i don't assume that it's true but if it were the case it wouldn't have been condoned
02:28:03 can we move now that can be taken down can we move now to an event at which you were present on many days the dispute at grunwick's
02:28:14 grunwick's um can we start with the the
02:28:14 the aim of the swp was it to assist those striking to prevent the picket line being crossed by people who were going into work
02:28:32 by people who were going into work the strike at grumwicks was a very long strike it was involving mainly asian women
02:28:33 women they faced an incredible attack from their employer who was really really strongly anti-union he also was involved with the national
02:28:44 he also was involved with the national association for freedom so it was about trying to break the whole union and the union movement so it was regarded as a very important strike so yes it was there to assist them in winning and to help them to have
02:28:59 them in winning and to help them to have a picket which was going to be effective and which would stop the workers who've been replacing them from coming in
02:29:04 coming in and the police were trying to prevent that from happening and to facilitate workers
02:29:11 workers going into the factory they came in on the bus and the police's aim was to try to let that bus through and
02:29:23 let that bus through and this was this was a picket line which at various points was supported by labour cabinet ministers shirley williams was down there people like that it was a very very um widely supported strike and it was felt that um
02:29:40 felt that um it was unjustified to allow this to become uh
02:29:41 uh a became a kind of call celebrate with this right-wing organization using it as a means of trying to attack the unions on a wider scale you describe the
02:29:55 you describe the strike breakers in your witness statement as scabs and that was that's a common the commonly
02:30:04 commonly used express i think it still is yeah i mean highly pejorative isn't it well it's
02:30:05 it's it's a bit like talking about hot heads or things like that isn't it i mean it's and would it be fair to say feelings ran very high against the scabs
02:30:23 well you weren't directly confronting them because they were in the bus so um but yes people were people were very much opposed to them but however strongly uh the strikers and members of your organization felt about their actions
02:30:34 organization felt about their actions strike breaking was not unlawful was it
02:30:40 i don't know whether it was unlawful to do what they did i don't know
02:30:46 and was the object of give me a moment um
02:30:57 on what basis can it be said that they were doing anything unlawful i don't know i just said i don't know the answer to that
02:31:09 and was the the object as as you saw it to try to overwhelm the police and
02:31:16 and break through and prevent the coaches getting in we wanted to stop the coaches getting in that was the main aim of the operation and we wanted to give support to mrs
02:31:28 and we wanted to give support to mrs desai and the other people on the picket line
02:31:39 and that overwhelming the picket line at one point was exactly what did happen as you were explaining
02:31:44 yeah i mean most days there were less people than that obviously was it essentially when the miners turned up the miners turned up all sorts of other people turned up so that was probably thousands of people and it was in a very small road
02:32:00 and it was in a very small road would it be fair to say it was the the deliberate aim to push through those police lines well the deliberate aim was to stop the bus going through and i think it achieved it on that day
02:32:17 now once again you find yourself differing with lord scarman lord scarman conducted a statutory investigation
02:32:28 and concluded and i'll read it the union apex we are satisfied had no intention of provoking violence and civil disorder by calling for the mass picket nevertheless it cannot be denied that
02:32:41 nevertheless it cannot be denied that the risk of a mass picket getting out of control was known a mass picket allows violent extremists to participate such people cannot be prevented from
02:32:52 such people cannot be prevented from joining it and will use the opportunity it presents to provoke civil disorder which in itself is sure to prejudice the very cause which the picket was called to promote
02:33:09 is that in fact what happened well i don't agree with this idea about violent extremists there were thousands and thousands of people who came on that picket and many others who turned up on other days and i think it's if we're going to talk about pediatric terms that is
02:33:22 is one that i think should be avoided i know it's frequently put by the um the undercover policing people but it doesn't strike me as it's an accurate way of looking at it so unfortunately i
02:33:35 way of looking at it so unfortunately i would have to disagree with lord skarman over that as well moving away from the dispute at grunwick's uh to a general statement a statement you made about the anl in your witness statement
02:33:47 witness statement and you say that the anl insisted that the fascists in the national front had to be confronted physically on the streets in order to prevent them gaining support from the very beginning
02:34:04 support from the very beginning what did you mean by confront physically i think i've explained that really that it it's they should be we if we can in any way stop them from marching then that should be the aim of what we're doing and
02:34:18 the aim of what we're doing and that was central to the whole idea there was a you know if you look in the 1970s there was a whole argument about should we
02:34:24 we um directly confront them or shall we just talk about um you know other ways of maybe changing the law and so on um and
02:34:34 and i think for many of us in the anti-nazi league not everybody but many of us felt you had to stop them from marching and this has become now
02:34:45 this has become now a very very normal thing that happens luckily the threat of fascism isn't anywhere near as great now as it was then but it's become much more accepted that this
02:34:56 that this people don't want them to march through areas of high ethnic minorities for example so i don't think i don't there's anything
02:35:08 think i don't there's anything particularly remarkable about that but by using the phrase physical physically confront them that's what you had in mind might be necessary
02:35:13 necessary well as i say if you're saying you don't want them to march and you want to stop them marching you may have to physically confront them can we move now to
02:35:24 can we move now to children
02:35:25 children we touched on scan earlier i'd like to take you to a document that comes from the sds reporting on the 1980 swp
02:35:46 swp national delegate conference it's ucpi five zeros one six one four eight that's volume two tap 16.
02:35:58 and if we could go to page 55 please
02:36:08 now this again is a drafting commission uh
02:36:09 uh paper that's been been obtained and attached to the officer's report
02:36:20 attached to the officer's report i'd like to direct your attention to the pre first of all to the preamble the gist of the preamble is it expresses the very grave concerns about fascist activity
02:36:31 activity that
02:36:36 that were felt at that time i'll give you an opportunity to read that
02:36:58 and in that context it then goes on at paragraph one to say it should be a top priority to organize against the nazis in schools and on the football terraces which they are making their recruiting grounds
02:37:10 grounds the anl has produced a school students nuss leaflet and this should be distributed as widely as
02:37:17 as possible
02:37:18 possible does that fairly describe what the swp was doing in schools at the time and why i think that
02:37:29 i think that when you look at the preamble and and that point that you've just made i think
02:37:39 think that when you look at this whole this whole question of the anti-knights league and they say um
02:37:47 um it was we were successful quite early on in beginning to identify them as nazis which is very very important to do because as i said the whole memory of the second world war was still fairly recent and people
02:38:00 fairly recent and people didn't like nazis quite rightly and could see that there was a an issue there so i think you have to put it in the
02:38:11 i think you have to put it in the context that this was we were trying to get across that people that the people around the nf weren't acting in the interests of ordinary people but were actually fascists who were going to destroy
02:38:22 fascists who were going to destroy society and particularly were going to scapegoat
02:38:28 scapegoat ethnic minorities now when it comes to a top priority to organize against the nazis in schools on the football terraces this is because they were
02:38:39 terraces this is because they were aiming at young people and we wanted to counter that now that was mainly done through leafleting and other activities of that sort
02:38:50 i'll take that as a yes um is that fair sorry
02:38:51 sorry yes that's the um that's the answer would you accept that schools becoming a
02:39:02 would you accept that schools becoming a political battleground between groups on opposing ends of the political spectrum would be a concern
02:39:06 concern both for the authorities and many parents
02:39:07 parents i think the problem we have and the problem we had then but it occurs with other issues now is that you can't keep politics out of schools and particularly children are particularly teenage
02:39:23 children are particularly teenage children are aware of a whole number of issues that go on and that they do have
02:39:26 have comments on so yes you don't want it to turn into a battle between two groups of of school
02:39:37 battle between two groups of of school students at the same time we felt it was very important we worked with teachers over this we worked with all sorts of people to try to get across what we thought the danger of the national front was
02:39:49 was thank you could we take that down please um and i'm going to move now to the right to work campaigns and the right to work marches could you you've explained it in your witness statement but if you could explain it just succinctly now
02:40:00 explain it just succinctly now what were the right to work marches they came out of obviously a period of high unemployment in the mid
02:40:12 the mid 1970s the first one was in 1976
02:40:16 1976 unemployment was something that hadn't been seen in britain since the 1930s i mean since the second world war essentially there was full employment so this was a big shock
02:40:28 shock at all sorts of levels for people and we felt that we had to be part of organising campaigning against unemployment and particularly against youth unemployment which was a big issue and we felt it
02:40:41 which was a big issue and we felt it also connected in some ways with some of the previous discussion we've had about the dangers of the far right and
02:40:52 the dangers of the far right and unemployment has been has been a sort of recruiting ground for the far right at different
02:40:53 different uh times so we again we wanted to channel this into a very different direction against the government and we did it so say firstly against what was then the labour government then of course it became much bigger when
02:41:08 course it became much bigger when unemployment grew still further again under margaret thatcher
02:41:16 what was the role of the swp in the right to work marches
02:41:22 marches well we helped to set it up we worked with all sorts of people from
02:41:23 from the labour left other people in the trade unions so we were involved in it but it was again it was something that
02:41:34 was something that other people were involved in it's an example again of the united front
02:41:41 can i ask you first of all now about the 1976
02:41:43 1976 march
02:41:44 march i'm reading from the special branch annual report about that year it said their progress attracted little publicity
02:41:56 publicity and on arrival and it's talking about arrival in london about 80 strong on the outskirts of london they took the opportunity of attacking their police escort
02:42:06 escort in what amounted to a running battle 44 officers were injured and 43 members arrested
02:42:16 arrested were you a witness to any of these events no i wasn't on the um but i have to say that was a you know they disputed that account and uh
02:42:27 that account and uh and i think a trades council inquiry actually disputed that account as well what that there were 44 injuries and 43 arrests
02:42:38 arrests that we took the opportunity to attack the police that wasn't um that wasn't as we recalled it or as we argued it but i wasn't at the event would it be fair to say that there was certainly trouble
02:42:49 certainly trouble yes that's a matter of record that there was there was trouble but it depends where you think that that originated it's worth saying in that as well that this was the day before
02:43:04 well that this was the day before we had a rally in the albert hall in support of the marches where we got 5 000 people uh came to the event so it was it had very wide support from trade unionists and others um i'm going to move now to an area that
02:43:16 um i'm going to move now to an area that we're particularly interested in because you can give us some eyewitness evidence about undercover police officers i'm going to start with the 1980 right to work march
02:43:29 work march an officer who used the cover name colin clark
02:43:37 clark was the treasurer national treasurer for the right to work march 1980 wasn't he i would like you please to assist us by telling us what you can recall
02:43:45 recall of colin clark how he behaved and what he did
02:43:46 he did well colin clark was as you say the treasurer of the right to work campaign and obviously this was a deliberate decision to get
02:43:57 this was a deliberate decision to get into positions where he worked for the swp at different times in to do with finance and to do with getting names of people
02:44:02 people and he did so with the treasure of the right to work now the march i was on was in 1981 which colin clark i think in his statement says he wasn't on but that
02:44:13 statement says he wasn't on but that isn't true because he definitely was on it and i remember him very very well on it um
02:44:21 it um because he was the treasurer he was responsible for making sure we had enough money to pay for things as we went on which they're very costly because you have to obviously feed everybody and do all
02:44:36 obviously feed everybody and do all those kind of things transport people um and
02:44:43 and uh he was very central to it all he was i always found him quite helpful to work with he was maybe this was the intention that he was always quite helpful with money and and everything else and it was only
02:44:59 and it was only later that i began to think that maybe he was a police spy because he disappeared said he was going abroad and um nobody ever heard from him again which is which as we now know is a is a pattern
02:45:11 pattern and i think it's i mean it makes me very uncomfortable the whole idea that i worked with him closely for three weeks and i knew him at other times and worked with him over certain things i think
02:45:24 with him over certain things i think it's it's very disturbing that he was in this position i don't see any justification for it at all and just to be clear were you on the 1980 march as well no i was the the one the one i organized where i was central to organising was
02:45:39 to organising was the 1981 when it was september 1981 it went from liverpool to manchester and then up through the um you know all the lancashire towns to blackpool so that's why it took three weeks um
02:45:50 um can you help us with whether colin clark as he was styling himself uh participated in any decisions
02:46:02 uh participated in any decisions oh yes he did yes he would have been we discussed most days i mean not most of it was at the level of should we go and visit such and such a factory or should we
02:46:13 should we where are we going to get the money from because we've got problems with getting enough food for tomorrow or whatever it was i mean they were mostly those kind of decisions but definitely i discussed with him particularly when
02:46:25 i discussed with him particularly when we went when we were close to blackpool because
02:46:29 because we were aware that we didn't want um
02:46:32 um lots of these lots of these were very young
02:46:33 young people
02:46:37 people uh they came from the council estates in cumbernauld in scotland and liverpool and various other places we didn't want them to do anything which might lead to them getting arrested and i remember having discussions with him about that which i now
02:46:51 which i now regard as you know a complete breach of trust really and what was his line on that well his line was to you know we would have discussions about this and he agreed that um well he's not going to say is he to me we should get them arrested that
02:47:03 me we should get them arrested that might be what he wanted to do but he's not going to say that when we're sitting there discussing how we can avoid a dangerous situation putting to one side what
02:47:17 putting to one side what one might describe as mundane decisions did he participate in any decisions that you would describe as significant well i think that was a significant discussion and a significant decision
02:47:30 discussion and a significant decision and he will have participated in a whole range of things because he was in discussion with the various people who were leading the march and therefore whether it was a
02:47:42 march and therefore whether it was a smaller issue or whether it was a larger issue colin clark would have been involved in it so he was he put himself very much at the center of the operation [Music]
02:47:50 [Music] in a role that obviously was important for us and he did so quite deliberately to presumably to find out as much information as he could
02:48:04 information as he could are there any specific decisions that he took or influenced that caused you particular concern
02:48:11 no my my concern about him was more general i mean i just
02:48:17 i just i just find that when i think about this now and i've thought about it a lot obviously recently but i've also as i said you thought about it in earlier times i think it's extremely disquieting the level at which these people
02:48:29 level at which these people made themselves so so central to things and as i said in my witness statement i was a young woman then i was between relationships i'm not suggesting that there was any likelihood that he or i
02:48:41 there was any likelihood that he or i would have had a relationship but that was obvious you know we socialized and we did all those things and it makes i'm not trying to suggest it's at all like the women who've suffered in the way that they have with these
02:48:54 way that they have with these sexual relationships that people have had but i feel it's a very uncomfortable thing to think back on and to look back on and as i say i find no justification for it whatever
02:49:08 can you help us with the officer who used the cover name phil cooper at this stage just in relation to right
02:49:14 right to work marches phil cooper wasn't on that march to the best of my
02:49:26 wasn't on that march to the best of my recollection he was on later marches to the best of my recollection so which i wasn't on i mean i may have gone to protests at the conferences when they got there you know gone for the day but i wasn't part of organizing those marches
02:49:42 organizing those marches and we'll come back to his role in the headquarters later on on the 1981 march was there trouble
02:49:53 on the 1981 march was there trouble no no it was a it was a big march we had several hundred people on it and that's a lot of political and logistical organization to do this for three weeks it's a big job
02:50:03 job as i've said they were young people for the most part um so quite um
02:50:14 um so quite um inexperienced politically whatever you'd want to call it um and it was they were it was a remarkable successful thing we went to towns every night we were put up by local trade unions we were put up in community halls
02:50:24 halls we visited workplaces people would speak we'd have maybe a little rally in a public place every night and some of these marchers would speak it was an extremely
02:50:38 extremely well organized operation which had a political aim rather than any kind of physical confrontation and there wasn't one going to ask you a little bit about the 1980 march i appreciate you weren't
02:50:51 1980 march i appreciate you weren't there and if if you're not in a position to answer please just say so but um we've seen the reports of the
02:51:05 but um we've seen the reports of the 1980 march which indicate that there was some trouble when the march reached southall and that seven people were
02:51:07 were arrested
02:51:08 arrested and then there was more trouble in brighton when the marchers joined a total of it is recorded about 8 000 people
02:51:18 people who were shouting abuse at members of the conservative party and there were some arrests there
02:51:37 the police assert that only the presence of a large number of police officers prevented more serious violence at brighton does that picture accord with your understanding of what happened from your conversations with members of your party
02:51:48 members of your party well i do recall that the march was perfectly there were no problems at all with the march
02:52:03 with the march um until it got to southall in in other words until it got into the metropoli metropolitan police area brighton
02:52:07 brighton it strikes me as a rather odd thing for the police to say that um it was only because it was a big police presence there's always a huge presence
02:52:18 presence there's always a huge presence at any party conference and particularly at the conservative party conference so that would have happened anyway so i'm not quite
02:52:19 not quite clear what um what is being suggested um i just you're only asking asking the question yes just trying to establish the facts um i see
02:52:30 i see okay well i think in that case we can move to 1982 and again i appreciate you went on the march but i don't think you will need to have been for this next question
02:52:46 question um could we have up ucpi five zeroes fifteen eight eight eight at volume three sir tab thirty four
02:53:07 now this is a report with some attachments about the culmination of the 1982 march
02:53:11 what i'd like to
02:53:16 show you first of all is
02:53:25 page 11. i think you've had a chance to look at this document this is the one which attaches lots and lots of checks copies of checks
02:53:36 it's there's lots of information about who was supporting and funding the 1982 right to work complain uh campaign
02:53:44 campaign now this document is part of those enclosures and appears to be a piece of paper recording uh the scale of donations
02:53:56 uh the scale of donations most of the donations are made by organizations and we have been able to to publish them but in a couple of places we've had to make
02:54:07 couple of places we've had to make redactions for privacy in relation to as you will see some pretty uh small donations one at 60 item 16
02:54:14 item 16 two pounds i just like first of all can you confirm that this type of information held by the socialist workers party was confidential
02:54:30 confidential well it was confidential except obviously it was leaked by the undercover people working there but it was meant to be confidential yes that takes me to my next question i'd
02:54:45 that takes me to my next question i'd like your reaction please to the fact the police obtained copies of and have stored and either they or the security service have stored since then a record of a private donation of two pounds
02:54:59 pounds to the 1982 right to work march well i think the whole thing's astonishing really that they've got this list of
02:55:05 list of of union branches of as you say a couple of private individuals um this just seems to me why on earth is this
02:55:14 this acceptable why on earth did they need to have this information i don't understand it's a perfectly above board operation um
02:55:24 um it was perfectly legal these donations would have been agreed by union branches and therefore they're completely um acceptable it's not like any
02:55:36 um acceptable it's not like any individual is just giving these donations without with the exception of the individual people but the vast majority will have been agreed by a branch committee or several people in a branch i
02:55:49 several people in a branch i the only reason they they can do this it seems to me is tied in with the wider questions of blacklisting and particularly
02:56:00 particularly looking at particular union branches in ways which i i think in a democracy we should be able to as union members donate money to who we want without it being the subject of surveillance
02:56:10 can i ask you now for the benefit of your wide experience
02:56:23 it is i'm afraid distracting if people talk in a way that can be heard as it can be
02:56:24 can be could i ask you to keep what you want to say to each other until after
02:56:35 until after the morning session is over or if you really need to say it urgently go outside and do it thank you
02:56:40 thank you thank you
02:56:41 thank you i'd like the benefit of your long experience of the workings of the socialist workers party to help us with some of the positions of authority
02:56:53 some of the positions of authority that were assumed by sds undercover officers
02:56:58 officers first of all the roles of branch and district treasurer must be self-evident that they have access to
02:57:08 access to financial information at respectively branch and district level and
02:57:15 and who was making donations and so forth and we've seen reporting in closing financial details but can you help us as to on the ground what sort of level of meetings they're attending what sort of participation you would expect a
02:57:30 participation you would expect a district or branch treasurer treasurer to be making to
02:57:32 to their branch or district well i think the main role obviously they had to pay out for you know if you're hiring a hall
02:57:44 out for you know if you're hiring a hall or things like that but the main role of the branch and district treasurers was actually to get people to pay subs and to make sure they're paying their subscriptions every every month or or every week and in that situation of course it's a very
02:57:59 situation of course it's a very central role because it gives you access to
02:58:00 access to the names and very often the bank accounts of the individuals concerned in the particular branch and obviously this can be passed on to people who are
02:58:11 to people who are engaged in blacklisting and everything else and that's obviously what happened district treasurers in particular would be very likely to be
02:58:23 be very likely to be delegates to bigger meetings like conferences and other national meetings that went on so they would also have access to the whole national organization an obvious
02:58:38 national organization an obvious question but i have to ask it and all of this financial information confidential yes it is
02:58:39 yes it is it's meant to be confidential
02:58:43 contact secretary
02:59:00 are you able to help us with that what that would involve well again this will be somebody who will know the names of people around the organization people who may have come to meetings or may we may regularly get the paper to them or any of those sorts of things and will be
02:59:08 be privy to again their names their addresses possibly their bank account where they work which is a central question when we know what's happened to a lot of people in this
02:59:28 happened to a lot of people in this situation so it strikes me that this is one of the main reasons that the um the these roles have been so eagerly taken up by undercover police again all confidential information it should be yeah it should be do they get access to any
02:59:41 any decision-making meetings with this sort of post
02:59:46 of post definitely with at a district level they almost certainly will be likely to be delegates it's not not necessarily the case but many of them will be delegates to conferences and to other national meetings so then they have the access to
03:00:02 they have the access to hundreds of people they will all go to events like skegness where
03:00:06 where loads of the names obviously have been passed on
03:00:11 passed on the officer who was a contact secretary was actually at branch level in the twickenham branch so is there anything you can help us with about what a contract contact secretary at branch level is likely to be getting involved in they may or may not be going as
03:00:25 they may or may not be going as delegates i mean that's impossible to know
03:00:26 know at this stage it's worth saying the twickenham branch was of course a branch where there was a big argument in i can't remember 1974 or 75 which led to a split in the
03:00:41 1974 or 75 which led to a split in the organization so i think it's interesting that they had somebody in there and i i'm sure that that would they would have played a role presumably in not in calming down any argument but in exacerbating it
03:00:52 exacerbating it socialist worker organizer could you help us with what that is and what access that gives someone who holds that position or influence
03:01:06 influence again this is something where you'll be responsible for distributing the paper to people collecting the paper from if you're in london collecting it from what was then the print shop
03:01:21 was then the print shop you will be responsible for organizing sales and it was a very central role in a branch and in a district the person who did that role it was a very very central role nearly always you would be again at the national conferences and things like that you'd be
03:01:39 things like that you'd be you might well be introducing meetings and and all those kind of things district social committee social committee yeah this is um i don't quite understand that we know they had a whole committee for organizing social events but maybe
03:01:53 organizing social events but maybe well this was this is vince harvey 1976 to 1979 deployment in walthamstow and he one of the positions we understand he assumed as well as being a branch and
03:02:07 he assumed as well as being a branch and then a district treasurer was a district social committee do i take it you probably not the best person
03:02:13 person i guess that means that he organized some social events but i don't know and obviously that was part of his whole operation
03:02:20 operation um
03:02:26 um headquarters we know that the officer who used the name phil cooper infiltrated your headquarters can you help us really to set the scene
03:02:41 really to set the scene what is a headquarters like is it small is it large how many people are there when
03:02:45 when these people were involved we had a considerable um
03:02:53 um operation in the sense that we had offices which dealt with the political
03:02:58 political jobs you know the the socialist worker and all those sorts of things we also had journalists who worked on the paper but we also had a print shop which was considerable which had lots of people working there and um those
03:03:10 um those so you'll be working among 40 50 people probably at one time maybe not quite that many but not far off 35
03:03:20 off 35 now the term headquarters countries up an image of the people at the very top of the organization being present is that was that true at one point we had an office which was
03:03:37 at one point we had an office which was about half a mile down the road and not everybody worked from the office some people did some didn't um some just worked from home and only came in for meetings but by and large the leadership or a reasonable section of the
03:03:48 or a reasonable section of the leadership would be in the headquarters yes
03:03:49 yes does it follow that phil cooper would have been rubbing shoulders frequently with people at the very top of the
03:04:03 with people at the very top of the organization yes can you recall doing so yes i can yeah can you help us with how he behaved and what he did
03:04:10 he behaved in as with colin clark these are people who quite obviously quite deliberately um didn't
03:04:21 um didn't particularly get involved in arguments didn't particularly do any of those things they did a routine important job in the office they would have gone to all the they would have gone to the meetings um they would have gone to
03:04:32 meetings um they would have gone to meetings in their own district or branch and they we did have print shop meetings as well for the whole staff
03:04:41 staff about a range of things sometimes more generally political sometimes about more practical things they would have gone to all of those and um they would have been at social events if we went to the pub on a friday night or
03:04:54 we went to the pub on a friday night or if it was somebody's birthday or any of those they would have been all of those and of course that's important for them in picking up all sorts of
03:05:02 sorts of things that about individuals that no doubt they wanted to do did he keep a high or a low profile fairly low profile i would say
03:05:13 i would say can you recall whether or not he influenced any decisions well i he didn't influence decisions in the sense that he was a member of the central committee or or anything else but he will have
03:05:27 but he will have um had a lot of influence over the kind of things
03:05:29 of things access to all loads of information about finance about names of people and that to me is the most um
03:05:37 most um is the most damaging thing uh we'll come back to the documents that he he obtained in a moment but is there anything else you'd like to tell us
03:05:49 anything else you'd like to tell us about what phil cooper said or did or how he behaved no i think he as i say i don't think he was particularly high profile in the job but of course
03:06:01 high profile in the job but of course the he didn't need to be so high profile in order to obtain a great deal of information which um which obviously wouldn't have been given to him if people had had any idea about his role
03:06:17 his role i'm now going to embark upon what's the final stage of what my questions today you'll be delighted to learn but i'm going to put various documents to you and the theme is i going to put the documents we'll look at the documents then i want to have your reaction to them i'd like to start with some
03:06:31 to them i'd like to start with some documents the general theme is they're about you
03:06:32 about you um
03:06:36 um can we start pleasing volume one tab one this is ucpi five zeros eleven five six three
03:07:04 this is an sds report about a meeting at hoben library of the london district of the swp which occurred on the 15th of october 1977.
03:07:24 if we could go to page two please and then down to the bottom of that page to look at paragraphs eight and nine
03:07:39 eight and nine it reads after a brief discussion period the conference moved swiftly into the third session of the day which featured lindsay german the new central london organizer who spoke on recruitment and carder and branch building and then paragraph
03:07:58 and branch building and then paragraph nine summarizes what the officer says it was that you were talking about very much on those lines
03:08:08 it appears therefore that the sds are reporting on you pretty much from the moment that you are
03:08:13 promoted in 1977.
03:08:22 can we move now to ucpi five zeros one three six six nine please
03:08:29 please this is volume one tab nine
03:08:50 this is a report an sds report dated the 14th of december 1979 at paragraph two it reads
03:08:51 it reads at the first meeting of the central committee of the socialist workers party which was elected at the 1979 national delegate conference
03:09:03 1979 national delegate conference the following areas of responsibility were allocated then there's a list of names and
03:09:11 names and responsibilities you are listed as a woman's
03:09:12 woman's organizer
03:09:18 organizer am i right in understanding that this is the first time that the central committee met and had been created
03:09:26 sorry that this particular committee i guess so yeah so they seem to have followed your your appointment in in 1979 on to the central committee
03:09:40 on to the central committee can we take that down please and go to
03:09:45 and go to volume one tab twelve ucpi five
03:09:47 ucpi five zeros thirteen nine six one
03:10:01 this is a report dated the 12th of may 1980
03:10:03 1980 it reads the under-mentioned persons were identified as being present at the blair peach demonstration held in
03:10:14 blair peach demonstration held in central london on sunday the 27th of april 1980.
03:10:22 if we move to page 3 there's a very very long list of names most of which we've redacted on grounds of privacy but at the bottom of page three your name appears
03:10:32 appears you knew blair peach didn't you yeah and this was a demonstration to mark the anniversary of his death wasn't it
03:10:50 um there's a photo there's a report that perhaps we don't need to turn up if you can't remember it i'm happy to turn it up though from 1982 which shows that you've been reported on for so long that they were asking for an updated photograph of you
03:11:05 photograph of you do you recall that i don't recall it no well let's have a look at ucpi five zeros
03:11:10 zeros one five nine eight six volume three tab thirty six
03:11:30 and that's dated the 7th of december 1982. paragraph 2 this report brings up to date what is on record concerning the socialist workers party swp under the headings as shown and if we go to
03:11:41 to page two
03:11:56 and look at paragraph three reads the photographs on file of the undimensioned persons are no longer a good likeness and require updating and then your name is one of two that appears there
03:12:05 there staying with volume 3 so if we can go to tab 45 and on the display we can take down the current document
03:12:20 current document and replace it with ucpi five zeros 19408
03:12:30 um this is a report dated the 24th of august 1988 it's a report about you it says that paragraph 2 lindsey german central committee member
03:12:47 lindsey german central committee member of the socialist workers party has moved to then we've rejected the details provides a telephone number it says who you are sharing your address with
03:12:57 with and provides some details about that person
03:13:01 person including membership of the swp and
03:13:05 and the role within the party paragraph three reads german first met privacy on the 1981 right to work march from liverpool to blackpool privacy became an swp
03:13:16 to blackpool privacy became an swp member whilst on this march and has since experienced a meteoric rise within the party
03:13:29 having shown you uh those documents sorry
03:13:32 sorry sorry you carry on i just wanted to query this but anyway well we were just getting to the point where having shown you that barrage of documents um about you i want to give you the opportunity to react uh whether on points of factual
03:13:50 react uh whether on points of factual accuracy but as just as importantly what your reaction is to all of this reporting about you
03:14:01 reporting about you well can i first say on this last one so it's the 0.3 is completely inaccurate i didn't first meet the person on the right to work march he didn't become an swp member while on the march he was already a member and he was an organizer
03:14:12 he was an organizer in scotland and then became an organizer in london so he had no meteoric rise within the party so it's tripe really that whole that whole bit um
03:14:27 you know i feel i've i feel with this particular thing about my dress and who i live with i feel it's a completely unjustified intrusion i've always been on the electoral register i had a mortgage at the time it's hardly you know that i'm moving
03:14:41 it's hardly you know that i'm moving from house to house and that you can't find me
03:14:42 find me um all of this was completely in the public record i don't see the point of the
03:14:48 the these kind of reports which basically are both inaccurate and um
03:14:55 um and and
03:14:58 and and quite pointless and i felt this about a lot of the um the various things that i've i've seen which have been things many of which were in the public record you know the the annual event escape nest was advertised in
03:15:10 event escape nest was advertised in socialist worker marxism was advertised in socialist work and there's no secrecy about it so what on earth
03:15:22 about it so what on earth um they think is the value of this is is beyond me but i wanted to particularly pick up actually on the blair peach demonstration because i feel just to give people the the background i
03:15:33 just to give people the the background i knew blair he was a neighbour of mine at the time and i would see him i wasn't a close friend of his but i would see him in the pub i would see him at meetings and and things like that i didn't go on the
03:15:49 and things like that i didn't go on the southall demonstration because i was ill but my partner at the time did and said it was one of the most violent demonstrations he's ever been on i know you have a witness statement from somebody who was on the march which where she had her head
03:16:06 where she had her head cracked open with a police truncheon we know that blair was murdered by police um
03:16:07 um and that's that's not disputed now that's the truth we know they went tooled up again if you look at the report from the um
03:16:20 um that was given by the what the amnesty report
03:16:26 report we also know from some of the um statements in these reports how contemptuous they were of of the people who were demonstrating and particularly um
03:16:37 um there's a reference to just after blair died when his funeral took place now that was a funeral of thousands and thousands of people who marched through east london where he lived and where he taught in the school there
03:16:52 taught in the school there and um he was buried in in a cemetery just just in bow it's described in the report it's described as mourners in inverted commas which i regard as a tremendous affront particularly since the police were
03:17:04 particularly since the police were responsible for his death it said we used the demonstration um for our own ends our own political ends which is the whole kind of basis of these kind of arguments and i think
03:17:19 arguments and i think for the following year when we had a commemoration march to have so many people
03:17:20 people listed as
03:17:22 listed as subversive as any of these things i think is a is a complete disgrace really and i think it tells you something about the the mindset of the people who were
03:17:36 the the mindset of the people who were doing this undercover policing and just the way in which they regarded demonstrators and just the final point on that i noticed that one of the undercover police was warned off going on the south wall demonstration because the uniform police were going to crack
03:17:50 the uniform police were going to crack down on it and that's something that i think tells us a great deal so i feel with these really that they are they're symptomatic of a much much
03:18:01 they're symptomatic of a much much bigger problem which i think needs to be addressed
03:18:02 addressed by the inquiry which is uh the way in which the police treated people who were going about perfectly legitimate political activity in an absolutely appalling way
03:18:19 in an absolutely appalling way thank you sir would this be a convenient moment to break for lunch certainly it would um
03:18:21 would um we'll break until my by my watch i'm five past two to give us uh a full hour um are you content
03:18:33 us uh a full hour um are you content with that i'm fine thank you good job you're not finding um you appear to me to be um giving your best without undue difficulty but um if that's wrong all you ever have to do
03:18:47 if that's wrong all you ever have to do is to say and and i can break to do that thank you great but i'm fine thank you then we'll resume
03:19:14 you