Day 2 of evidential hearings featuring Elizabeth Lester's testimony about the Workers Revolutionary Party (WRP) and White Meadows education center (1975-1978), followed by Barry Moss's testimony about his time heading the Special Demonstration Squad (SDS) in 1980. Key themes include WRP security measures, undercover infiltration, use of deceased children's identities, and the definition of 'subversion' used to justify surveillance.
00:03:10 thank you
00:03:25 [Music]
00:21:59 this is the second day of our evidential hearings and before we begin can i say to those in the public spaces at the back that you may use your electronic devices to communicate to the outside world what you hear and see in this
00:22:12 world what you hear and see in this hearing room but only once 10 minutes have elapsed you may not use such devices for photography or for recording what goes on in here there is a notice
00:22:26 a notice on the desk in front of you i think which sets it out more fully yes mr fernandez thank you chairman so sorry we have we're beginning by having a short uh
00:22:35 uh forgiveness right let's start again um mrs lester i understand you uh wish to
00:22:46 mrs lester i understand you uh wish to be uh affirmed is that that right then i'll ask mr fernandez to do that and then uh uh you'll be asked some questions thank you yeah uh sorry sorry just before i do that just to an introduction on health and safety yes
00:22:58 so welcome to day two of evidential hearings at the undercover policing inquiry
00:23:01 inquiry my name is neil fernandes and i am the hearings manager um just to confirm there is no fire alarm testing expected today so if the fire alarm goes off please follow the
00:23:12 fire alarm goes off please follow the fire exit signs and make your way to the master point which is the hard rock hotel great cumberland place on arrival at the muster point please make yourself known to a fire marshal who will be wearing a high visibility jacket and who will be keeping a register of all attendees
00:23:23 register of all attendees the fire marshals will also be responsible for letting everyone know when it's safe to return in liaison with representatives from the thistle hotel i'll now swear yourself
00:23:34 yourself she's going to affirm thank you um please repeat after me
00:23:45 thank you um please repeat after me i solemnly declare an affirm i solemnly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give that the evidence i shall give will be the truth will be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you thank you mrs hanson
00:24:04 can you give things your full name please elizabeth amanda tate lester thank you
00:24:08 thank you you have provided a witness statement to the inquiry dated the 11th of february 2022
00:24:15 2022 can you confirm that the contents of that witness statement are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes
00:24:30 best of your knowledge and belief yes your assistance was sought in the main about the activities undertaken um
00:24:38 at the workers workers revolutionary party education center at
00:24:39 center at white up meadows where you were resident with your family between approximately 1975 and i think 1978.
00:24:53 and i think 1978. before i ask you a few questions about that
00:24:58 that i just want to ask you a few general questions about the workers revolutionary party um i i just first just want to establish a very brief history of your involvement um with the wrp
00:25:13 of your involvement um with the wrp that you have set out in your witness statement
00:25:18 statement um you and your then husband roy battersby
00:25:22 battersby had been part of the predecessor organization of the wrp the socialist labor league is that right yes um and you worked on its paper the sll paper the workers press which later
00:25:36 paper the workers press which later became the paper of the wrp is that right yes
00:25:43 right yes and that was a paper which roy battersby also contributed to yes from time to time
00:25:47 time was that a full-time role that you undertook at the paper yes until i had my first child
00:25:57 the wrp developed out of the socialist labour league in 1973 is that right yes you and roy battersby um hosted left-wing discretion groups at your
00:26:10 left-wing discretion groups at your london flat is that right which were which involved other left-wing figures in the film television and um
00:26:20 um industry is that right yes a large number of people came to discussions every week you were also active in your local branch of the wrp the outer london
00:26:32 branch of the wrp the outer london branch is that right yes it was an unusual branch it wasn't we didn't participate in the same activities as everyone else because some of it was kind of
00:26:44 some of it was kind of um these were very public figures and it was felt that we had to be a little bit careful right and
00:26:48 and roy battersby was a member of the wrp central committee is that right yes he was
00:26:54 was um you and uh mr battersby moved to white meadows in 1975 with your family yes
00:27:04 yes and remained there till 1978
00:27:06 1978 approximately 77.78 yes um and mr bassesby was the central committee's representative in
00:27:18 central committee's representative in charge of the premises is that right yes initially to oversee the renovations but then uh involved in the running of the events there and the organization of and the security of the educational
00:27:31 and the security of the educational courses that were undertaken there is that right yes um with that background in mind can i ask you now of just a few very general questions about the wrp
00:27:47 the ultimate aim of the wrp you set out in your witness statement was to establish a
00:27:52 a socialist state is that right yes but always we were very internationalists and we were aware if you know anything about trotskyism that was one of tronsky's main
00:28:05 was one of tronsky's main um tenants um that this is an international question um
00:28:16 um was that a name that was openly avowed by the wrp yeah sure um was it a name that was set out in wrp publications like the workers press yes certainly particularly political statements i mean the paper would cover all kinds of issues industrial issues international issues
00:28:32 international issues and then it wouldn't necessarily always be there but when there were political statements about a particular event then it would be very open that we thought that socialism was the way forward
00:28:36 forward uh um the wrp also had a chain of bookshops is that right yes it did and um
00:28:44 um left-wing socialist literature sold at those bookshops all kinds of literature not just left-wing all kinds of they were very broad-based bookshops with all kinds of things
00:28:56 kinds of things um a film production business also owned by warp yes we did and what sort of films were produced by the wrp i was trying to think about this the the actual archive is now at the british film institute so i was trying to
00:29:08 film institute so i was trying to remember because we're talking 50 years ago
00:29:09 ago but i i can remember certainly a film um
00:29:18 but i i can remember certainly a film um in the north of ireland about the events in ireland um which were of course very very lively in the late 60s and early 70s um a film about the portuguese revolution which was also happening films about events that we put on for instance um we had some very large well
00:29:33 instance um we had some very large well attended by thousands of people pageants of labor history events about working-class history about british history etc and we would have been filming those as well but as i say the archive is now in the british film institute
00:29:43 institute right thank you um
00:29:52 um and also i i you've already covered this but in political statements you were entirely open about your aims of socialist socialist state and in fact you've supplied an
00:30:03 state and in fact you've supplied an election manifesto that makes that yeah absolutely stark yes and i'll take you to that in a moment if i may um
00:30:07 um i want to now ask you a few questions about
00:30:12 about what the wrp did to advance its aim to establish a socialist state
00:30:20 one difference with its predecessor organization is that the socialist labour league sought to do that by means of election of a socialist labor
00:30:31 of a socialist labor government but the wrp sought to do something slightly different
00:30:37 different um you have said in your witness statement that the wrp sought to build revolutionary leadership what what does that actually
00:30:50 what what does that actually mean in practice um i think we were trying in various statements to say what actually um you've heard already to this inquiry that the job of
00:31:02 already to this inquiry that the job of revolution is the job of the majority of people of the mass of the working class not a small group of people and in our statements i think we were trying to say there is another way of organizing society there's another way of living um that can actually improve the lives of
00:31:17 that can actually improve the lives of everybody um that isn't based on private profit so it was in a certain way propaganda um to try and get in discussions and that's why we stood in elections to have that discussion we can do things differently but of course it didn't mean that a small group of people
00:31:31 that a small group of people would be doing that just that we might be putting forward those ideas for discussion um
00:31:34 um you you mentioned that that's why you said in those elections in order that you could have that conversation publicly and i think it's right 1974 general election 10 candidates
00:31:49 general election 10 candidates 1979 election 60 candidates which also gave you i think a right to have a televised yes karen redgrave did a televised election broadcast
00:31:56 broadcast thank you
00:31:57 thank you um
00:32:01 um is this also right the wrp didn't believe
00:32:07 believe that parliamentary representation in itself would bring about a socialist state
00:32:10 state yes that's right that there are limits to the form of democracy as as important as it is there are limits to the parliamentary system and in fact that's made plain in the um
00:32:26 um election manifesto if you can just very briefly look please at ucpi
00:32:28 ucpi five zeroes three four seven four five please
00:32:43 that's extremely tiny the column i want to look at please is the first column halfway down uh no illusions in parliament is the heading
00:32:56 and sorry a little bit further up please thank you
00:32:57 thank you uh um
00:32:58 uh um which
00:33:00 which makes it uh quite clear that the parliamentary process is not going to be terribly helpful ultimately in setting up a socialist state in fighting for a socialist
00:33:11 state in fighting for a socialist program in this election we know it cannot be won through the ballot box parliament is a major instrument of the capitalist state machine for the defense of private ownership and the impression
00:33:24 of private ownership and the impression of the working class the election itself will not resolve anything for the working class socialism can only be achieved by mobilizing the strengths of the working class independent of and
00:33:36 the working class independent of and against the crisis-ridden capitalist state and its parliamentary relics um
00:33:40 relics um the labour party and conservative party who tie the working class to the parliamentary road are playing the game with the tories and their capitalist backers when our candidates are elected
00:33:54 backers when our candidates are elected to parliament they will fight to expose it for what it is and to mobilize the working class on a socialist program for the taking of uh state um power um i think by a slip of the time you said conservative when it reads communist gosh i'm so sorry that's my poor transcription i'm awfully
00:34:08 that's my poor transcription i'm awfully sorry as well the last night i was doing so sorry
00:34:12 so sorry that was a slip of the tongue um
00:34:23 you have uh told us that the purpose of engaging in parliamentary process was for publicity of your wrps
00:34:25 wrps views is that right yes but but also to encourage people to discuss themselves and think about these issues it wasn't just about us it was about general work
00:34:37 about general work in the working class around all these issues
00:34:38 issues thank you
00:34:40 thank you um
00:34:44 um if uh not through the parliamentary process
00:34:48 process can i ask you just to establish how the wrp
00:34:53 the wrp thought socialism uh could be achieved
00:34:58 achieved the wrp had a an all trades union alliance a sort of a an organization sort of parallel to the trades union organization is that right
00:35:07 right it was it was a pr it was an organization for trade unionists um who might not want to join the wrp yes but who nonetheless wanted
00:35:18 the wrp yes but who nonetheless wanted to discuss these issues to organize as i say and to find ways of developing solidarity with each other and was that a method of getting your message across
00:35:30 a method of getting your message across through the trades unions oh certainly i think we've focused a lot i mean if you think about the 70s it was an extraordinary time i mean there were millions of strike days in the 70s many of the strikes were against the wishes
00:35:41 of the strikes were against the wishes of some of the trade union leaders there was a real upsurge of workplace democracy
00:35:43 democracy all kinds of discussions going on so it's quite a different time from now and i think that's what has to be remembered in this and in that context and certainly we worked but we we worked as
00:35:58 but we we worked as genuine trade unionists it wasn't a case of infiltrating trade unions it was a case of you were in the union that was appropriate to where you worked and then you argued and fought for your issues and with everybody else because
00:36:09 issues and with everybody else because it was a maelstrom of discussion and and action at that point thank you uh the wrp also participated in
00:36:16 in highly organized uh demonstrations and you have uh set out in your witness statement the wrp aversion to
00:36:33 statement the wrp aversion to violence on the streets is that right violence um what we could have would have called adventurist rightly or wrongly
00:36:34 wrongly we didn't engage in on the streets it's a different question if you ask about if it's ever the right of people who are attacked to to defend themselves that would be different i'm going to touch on
00:36:52 would be different i'm going to touch on that in a moment but you you you set out in your witness statement that you had an aversion to individual terrorism adventurism which means the con confrontation on the street between the left wing and the right wing is engaging by the swp or
00:37:00 or rioting
00:37:02 rioting um
00:37:04 um you say
00:37:05 you say this in your witness statement at paragraph 27 we we certainly look back at the russian revolution as an inspiration an example of legitimate violence
00:37:17 an example of legitimate violence conducted by the mass of the working people in the face of oppression within an invasion from without can you explain what you meant by that that might uh
00:37:31 that might uh provide the bridge about the violence that you you possibly envisaged well again without discussing russian history at great lengths um you know that was a particular upsurge of millions and millions of people that revolution was
00:37:47 millions of people that revolution was attacked from without by britain etc um and they were legitimately trying to defend excuse me what the mass of people had fought for and continued to fight for so if we talk about mass movements that's what we i think would mean and that's what we'd be thinking of not
00:38:01 that's what we'd be thinking of not individual action but actually a point at which and we were vague about it i don't think i understood precisely what we meant by that quite frankly looking back how that would pan out it certainly wasn't going to be like russia it was certainly not in the context of world
00:38:15 certainly not in the context of world war one and all the rest of it we knew that um and the difference in technologies and the difference in also you know all sorts of things but i think personally speaking i wasn't clear what that actually meant it was more about
00:38:27 that actually meant it was more about people have the right um if there's a mass mobilization to actually fight and defend themselves so it's that it is vague for me certainly um
00:38:45 can the wrp in the 1970s be summarized in this way at the time you were striving for a socialist state but you are using constitutional and non-violent means in order to advance your aims
00:39:01 aims yeah certainly certainly nothing illegal at all
00:39:02 at all thank you
00:39:07 thank you um i want to move on now please to white meadows
00:39:09 meadows it was
00:39:15 it was purchased as a drama history and literature study center by corinne redgrave um
00:39:23 um was it ever intended to be used as such drama history and literature study or was that simply to avoid calling it uh what it in fact was which was a college of uh marxist education
00:39:36 marxist education i think there was a large component of that being the case as i said we organized not me personally but the people from that world organized all kinds of very moving powerful performances
00:39:48 powerful performances um which were attended by thousands and thousands of people and involved a very wide group of people from that world so yes there would have been an element
00:40:02 so yes there would have been an element and certainly one of the first groups of people who came i think i said that in my statement to attend the college of marxist education were by and large the people who'd been coming to the regular friday discussions um
00:40:09 um just an aside if anybody knows trevor griffith's play called the party it was based on those meetings and those discussions um and um so i think there would have been an
00:40:22 so i think there would have been an element of that but overwhelmingly it was for
00:40:25 was for the study of marxism and i think i said why we called it that at first concerned by attacks from the national front concern that it would be um very alarming to a local rural community
00:40:36 alarming to a local rural community so uh that was called that until the police raid of course when it was all over the newspapers who we were and what we were and then there was absolutely no point in
00:40:47 point in not calling it the college of marxist education yes um
00:40:50 um the course courses um at white meadows were you say in your witness statement were largely for wrp members young
00:41:02 were largely for wrp members young socialists and members of the all trade union alliance but it was also advertised um in a daily paper is that that's in the workers press it was in the workers press
00:41:08 press um and
00:41:10 um and how would a non-wrp member obtain a place on the course if they saw that advertisement how would they go about it can you remember that well they would have had their workers press delivered
00:41:24 have had their workers press delivered by people from the local branch and they would have known who people were and they would have asked them if they were interested to say i'd like to attend right
00:41:30 right um
00:41:35 um and so non-wrp members were welcome to to attend
00:41:39 to attend yeah i i don't know that many did but
00:41:39 but of course i can't say for sure right actually but um they would be welcomed yes
00:41:52 um i now just want to take you to the white meadows report itself please um ucpi
00:41:55 um ucpi uh five zeros one two two four oh please
00:42:03 this is a report which
00:42:04 which looks like a compilation report um it's thought to be authored by one of the undercover officers who infiltrated the wrp hn29
00:42:19 although he's not entirely clear that it was
00:42:21 was um second page please
00:42:35 the report is dated uh february 1976 and the center we understand opened in the summer of 1975 at the end of the summer yes um and so by the time this report is written it hadn't been open even for a year is that right yeah um
00:42:46 um you uh
00:42:50 you uh set out in your statement that it's broadly accurate there are two uh relatively minor corrections one is that uh which are perhaps i'll take you to in real time
00:43:02 perhaps i'll take you to in real time but the first of all um in that first paragraph
00:43:11 paragraph the writer of this report indicates that since its opening in the summer of 1975 at 900 students had attended the center um
00:43:17 um is that a is that an accurate figure do you think i don't know where that figure came from and i couldn't work it out when i was thinking that the most we could could accommodate would be 60 at a time
00:43:27 time and some weeks there might have been 10 people there so i don't know where that came from which also leads me to other things in that report which i hope i get a chance to say about where was he getting this information
00:43:43 getting this information and i noticed that peter collins who's another hn who gave evidence um was called very close to the central committee and i think some of the stuff in this report must have come through other routes he certainly wouldn't have
00:43:55 other routes he certainly wouldn't have got it from attending white metals right um and so you say although it could accommodate 60 it it
00:43:58 it did it ever accommodate six at the beginning when when you know a lot of members went um and made plans but then you'd been once you didn't go again for some time people had work people had
00:44:15 some time people had work people had family so we catered for children we had a lot of children small children coming who weren't in school um but you know you couldn't keep that up week after week and also with a membership of a few thousand probably yeah you aren't going to be able to that's why the 900 seems to me
00:44:25 to me unreal but i don't know um paragraph two of the report gives information about the purchase price renovation costs
00:44:37 renovation costs and insurance value of the house following those uh renovations are those details that would have been that were available to you as a resident of white meadows
00:44:49 of white meadows i might have known what the place cost to buy i wouldn't particularly have known about insurance costs i wouldn't have known about renovation costs roy battersby would have known if he probably doesn't remember now but he would have known but
00:45:03 remember now but he would have known but at the time i had no reason particularly and as i said i don't know where these seekers came from they would certainly have not come from an opening discussion to students at the school so they've come from somewhere else and and can you can you
00:45:15 and and can you can you can you think of where they might have well as i say i i can't help but feeling that that there's another undercover agent involved here um because he said he was close to the
00:45:30 because he said he was close to the central committee h in 303. um so i can only imagine that um or of course from other orcs uh you know security organizations like mi5 um which we are sure were also busy in within the wrp thank you uh um
00:45:41 thank you uh um it's
00:45:42 it's also in that uh
00:45:49 sorry not in that paragraph the paragraph uh three it indicates that um workmen attend the the white meadows center on occasion to
00:46:01 to perform
00:46:06 small amounts of renovation and these were wrp
00:46:09 were wrp members but why would the why were the workmen required to be wrp members was that a requirement no it wasn't a requirement um we'd been very very involved in the campaigning around the
00:46:21 involved in the campaigning around the building workers who'd been imprisoned um the shrewsbury ii we did we had organized a march which actually roy led from wigan down to london um to object to what had happened to the building workers after that strike when they were charged with conspiracy laws from the
00:46:35 charged with conspiracy laws from the victorian era and so there was a large group of of if you like workmen as he calls them who were around friendly etc
00:46:48 calls them who were around friendly etc and very willing to help so it wasn't an obligation um a number of them would have been of course but but wasn't necessary
00:46:54 necessary a large part of this report deals with the security measures um employed at white meadows whilst
00:47:05 whilst it's fair to say that the wrp was open about its ambitions and campaigned openly at general elections um is it also fair to say it was a security conscious organization
00:47:20 organization oh absolutely it was yes and rightly so as it turns out um i just want to just sort of supply some of the context in which we're going to be
00:47:26 to be uh looking at the the security measures employed by um the wrp at white meadows this was a time of great hostility
00:47:38 this was a time of great hostility between the national front the far right and
00:47:39 and left-wing groups you say in your statement there was a general press interest in the activities of the socialist labor league and then the wrp which you felt was hostile to your
00:47:50 your aims
00:47:54 aims and white meadows had been the subject of a police raid in september 1975 very shortly after the center had opened is that right yes so it's in that context we're looking at the writing of this report um
00:48:10 the writing of this report um were there security measures in place uh prior to that police raid well there would have been um some
00:48:22 well there would have been um some security but nothing like um what what after the raid right thank you um
00:48:30 you say at your paragraph 49 of your um witness statement that's under the um you had attended a summer camp set up by the
00:48:39 the socialist labor league um attended by hundreds of members and their families and there was a concern that that was going to be raided and you were sent back to london with
00:48:52 and you were sent back to london with documents which might have been seized during any raid what what sort of documents that what what were you taking about what
00:49:03 what what were you taking about what sort of things were you worried about um well um membership lists financial information what any political party will have that's not necessarily for the rest of the world to see and but the context of that event was that picture on the front page of the
00:49:16 that picture on the front page of the daily telegraph taken from a helicopter which i say in my statement i think which was warning about you know some terrible threat from our organization i mean that was the context so of course there was alarm
00:49:29 there was alarm to be on the front page of the daily telegraph at that point for a left-wing group wasn't a happy thing
00:49:36 um just to take you through the security measures that were employed by the white meadows
00:49:43 meadows at white meadows at the time of the writing of this report there was first a personal search of each student and his luggage and in fact one of the
00:49:55 and his luggage and in fact one of the errors you point out within this report is that
00:49:56 is that roy buttersby would search the men but you would search the women is that right yes um and the search was specifically for offensive weapons uh cameras tape
00:50:10 offensive weapons uh cameras tape recorders and any names addresses or telephone numbers written down um what was your anxiety about those items
00:50:19 items um
00:50:20 um we were
00:50:26 we were alarmed particularly after the police raid that there would be any excuse to actually any kind of provocation um to put us at risk frankly and as i say we weren't necessarily wrong if you read
00:50:39 we weren't necessarily wrong if you read again roy madison's statement which is a witness statement i know although he's not here in person he describes in detail how that raid took place and how the observer treated it and the libel case and was a huge um it was a huge
00:50:53 um it was a huge experience for all of us at the time so we were very concerned that there'd be nothing a that might have indicated that it was an undercover officer and of course we missed that but uh that they had anything illegal anything dangerous anything that might compromise us
00:51:05 anything that might compromise us information that could be sloshing around we'd be very careful about that because of that police raid and and the concern that that it was going to happen again or some such thing and a concern as well
00:51:19 some such thing and a concern as well about being bugged and bugs were found um
00:51:26 um so it was in that context that this this um quite um its intensive uh security was arranged uh um students were also warned to be careful about what they said in the house and you've mentioned the finding of a bugging device i think
00:51:42 finding of a bugging device i think what sort of thing uh was it was it what were the anxieties about what sort of things might have been said that that would have felt to be that might have compromised you can you imagine i don't know i think we would have been more concerned with um
00:51:55 have been more concerned with um individual people and their you know being identified because of the blacklisting that was going on and roy himself was the victim of the blacklist at the bbc and he knew that um and so there would be a concern about
00:52:06 and so there would be a concern about that and other people obviously in all sorts of other industries were also being blacklisted which we know now it wasn't just the television world um um certainly building workers were at risk and in a big way at this point so there would have been a concern about that
00:52:20 would have been a concern about that um that would have been the main concern really there was nothing illegal happening there and nobody would have had any access to anything that was
00:52:31 had any access to anything that was but it was just a general atmosphere of be careful be mindful because probably it's being listened to yeah and you mentioned in your witness statement that i mean in fact in the in the report it mentions that the students were enjoying not to refer to each other by their surname
00:52:50 each other by their surname and you mentioned your witness statement that identifiable details were a matter of anxiety because you might have had uh individuals coming from other countries which had fascist regimes and there were i mean spanish portuguese greek
00:52:59 greek all those countries in the early 70s were had fascist dictatorships and we were extremely concerned for those people
00:53:11 people that they not be identifiable and they were coming from time to time other
00:53:15 other security measures employed at the center um students were warned that the internal pay telephone was bugged and they had to seek permission to use it they could be taken to an outside telephone
00:53:30 telephone but couldn't leave the garden without permission all contact with neighbors or any other visitor were to be referred to roy
00:53:38 to roy battersby and there was a patrol every 15 minutes of the center between midnight and 7 am
00:53:49 7 am which is all reported in the undercover report
00:53:59 does the same explanation go for those security measures this was a response to
00:54:00 to the police raid in september and the negative plus crest coverage of that nature but also the the rise of the of the national front and
00:54:15 the of the national front and organizations such as that um in a rural area which you know who knows what was going on we didn't know people's politics at all um so it was also that that the right wing threat um
00:54:27 that the right wing threat um because they as far as we were concerned they were the violent ones uh um uh
00:54:33 uh um uh also set out in the report is the uh um
00:54:41 is the the contingency plan to be put in place in the event of a police raid which was that the clapham headquarters of the wap wrp should be contacted without delay and i think a 10 pence piece left in the
00:54:52 think a 10 pence piece left in the telephone in order that there was always money to make that telephone call if necessary what what was the purpose of that why would the clapham um headquarters of wprp need to be notified immediately
00:55:05 immediately well that's where um you know the substantial leadership if you like of of the wrp would have been based um the way the paper was based where
00:55:16 paper was based where um there would be an ability to inform everybody else throughout the country that this was happening which would have been important and to share that information very quickly which we couldn't have done
00:55:27 quickly which we couldn't have done from a call box in derbyshire so i think it was the dissemination of that information and i suppose a warning to others
00:55:36 others of what was happening if something like that did happen again right um
00:55:37 um is it
00:55:42 is it your view i think you meant to refer to this in your witness statement that it is partly that security consciousness of the wrp which drove the
00:55:53 the wrp which drove the police interests in the wrp and what was going on at white meadows that was a guess that they found it um interesting which i think they do say in various reports
00:56:02 reports that there was no public order threat but a lot of security measures in place um
00:56:11 um can we just briefly please go back to the have the report back on screen please ucpi five zeroes one two two four oh thank you and uh uh
00:56:20 and uh uh scroll down please to paragraph twenty
00:56:44 uh yes at the bottom of that page and then over the page paragraph
00:56:46 paragraph 20
00:56:47 20 sets out um the subject sort taught at
00:57:00 sets out um the subject sort taught at white meadows during the the educational course that this uh person attended um
00:57:05 um you can see at the bottom there sorry for discussion quite straightforward innocuous included dialectical historical materialism capital and philosophy the principles
00:57:17 something these subjects were carried out in conjunction with readings from marx's capital um volume angles anti-during angles etc etc etc um
00:57:26 etc um are those is that typical of courses uh run white meadows at that set of subjects being taught yes um certainly that would have been the the core
00:57:40 core um of the discussions yes um
00:57:43 um can i just ask you about the the the advertisement that appeared in the workers press would it make have made it clear that it was these sorts of
00:57:54 clear that it was these sorts of subjects that were being taught during the i can't remember to tell you the truth i can't remember probably not probably somebody would have had to chat as i said
00:57:59 as i said to who whoever they knew whoever was delivering their paper um to say what kind of things are happening next week or the week after or whatever um so it would vary a bit and there would
00:58:12 so it would vary a bit and there would be history as well as philosophy this is obviously very heavily peace peanut one where there was philosophy i wonder how he got on with lenin's volume 38 not an easy read
00:58:25 not an easy read um but um anyway i it could have been um it could have been more historically based at certain times too right but actually this is what he went to that makes me laugh um the subjects for discussion are described by this individual as straightforward
00:58:40 individual as straightforward and innocuous would you agree with that assessment well again it depends on whether you consider karl marx straightforward and innocuous and lenin straightforward and innocuous if he means which i presume he does there was nothing about public
00:58:51 does there was nothing about public disorder nothing illegal nothing that anybody couldn't anywhere if they wanted to pick up one of these books do in a totally legal way then yes that's innocuous
00:59:03 innocuous and we know of course that shortly after this report sds deployments into the wrp came to an end um
00:59:10 um finally this from me the wrp were infiltrated for a period of about two years or so and your
00:59:20 and your um
00:59:23 um the place where you lived and the place where you worked was
00:59:29 was infiltrated was was was spied on what's your reaction to that um this was my home and the home of two small children um and my partner and i think it's outrageous actually
00:59:40 and i think it's outrageous actually when there was absolutely no reason for it um which many of these reports from central bank they keep saying it they're not interested in disorder but we're going to keep an eye on them anyway and i feel it was an excuse which has come up
00:59:57 up from a lot of the opening statements for the sds to continue there was no reason for anybody to be there i think as i recall um that peter collins was actually longer in the wrp and i think it's um
01:00:04 it's um a shame
01:00:07 a shame that we aren't going to get a chance to really explore that because we're not core participants we aren't seeing all the documents nor our nor is the inquiry presumably um and i think that's a real loss to the
01:00:20 um and i think that's a real loss to the inquiry because he was there longer he's quoted as sayings close to the central committee and he's the one who said he was infiltrated into the national front now to me that's an extraordinary statement i knew nothing of that and my colleagues and comrades who i'm still in touch with know nothing of that
01:00:37 still in touch with know nothing of that and to me that's a you know it's amazing if that's true so i think there's a lot more to look at here and the other thing i'm so i'm going to just finish this one point is that um this guy um was this was his swan song it says so this is his last little piece of work
01:00:49 this is his last little piece of work although he's been bopping around all kinds of organizations before this i see and very busy um but he was actually
01:01:00 and very busy um but he was actually um instructed not to go to white meadows the guess being that it was a very sensitive place because of the police raid and the libel trial that was going on and all the rest of it but he went anyway
01:01:07 anyway and it's just not the case that he couldn't have pulled out which i think is what he implied of course he could people did people got sick people had families who were sick they couldn't go
01:01:18 families who were sick they couldn't go somebody died we couldn't enforce people going he didn't have to go he could have come with all kinds of reasons so you can't help but feel that something else is going on here too in
01:01:32 something else is going on here too in terms of the security services broadly speaking that isn't just the sds and public order and i feel that quite strongly that that's a real question i would have
01:01:43 would have about his his evidence okay uh thank you uh mr i've got no uh further questions for you i don't want to to i just want to give you a brief opportunity to say anything else you want to add to your evidence now you said earlier that you
01:01:55 evidence now you said earlier that you hoped you're going to get an opportunity to say a few things i didn't want to shut you out of that opportunity okay thanks um well i've just said one which i think is a real interesting and as i said the interconnections between the different security services
01:02:09 the different security services they're kind of fighting with each other the sds trying to justify its existence in a way that i think was unjustifiable is one of the things i wanted to say and about the fact that he went to white
01:02:20 about the fact that he went to white meadows anyway in spite of being ordered not to
01:02:21 not to uh and i think there's at the hand of somebody else behind that um unless he was just a rogue which is possible as well who did what he wanted to do as some of them seemed certainly to do um so that was one of the things um that i
01:02:35 so that was one of the things um that i that i was concerned about and concerned as well as i've already said that they were actually peter collins was longer in the wrp and it seems to me were well worth exploring further which is why we
01:02:46 worth exploring further which is why we hoped we'd be core participants that we would get a chance as with the inquiry to really delve a bit deeper into what was going on there um and the sort of limits of the inquiry which um we're kind of frustrated by um and the fact
01:02:59 kind of frustrated by um and the fact that we first contacted the inquiry two years ago
01:03:03 years ago and we still had to fight to get even this far um as we've got so that was another thing i wanted to to talk about the sort of catch-22 that we've been in um
01:03:13 um i think i've got through the main things that i wanted to say um i didn't probably answer your question about revolution which is a tricky one beyond to say that i wasn't really clear but i think what
01:03:24 i wasn't really clear but i think what we wanted we wanted a more just society we want a society that was based on the needs of the majority and not private profit
01:03:31 profit and that's really what the message was about and that's what i still feel and i think that you know maybe the methods and some of the language is you know of the 1970s but that determination that
01:03:43 the 1970s but that determination that that's what we wanted a better world and a better society and it's um it's hard to face the the fact of that infiltration by the forces
01:03:54 fact of that infiltration by the forces of the state into a group of people who the vast majority except for the undercover officers believed in that so i think that's what i would want to convey
01:04:04 convey thank you very much i've got no further questions for you do either the commissioner's team or the dl uh have any questions
01:04:15 dl uh have any questions now that they would wish to have raised by ms battesby
01:04:22 thank you in which case we're going to curtail our usual procedure of adjourning for 20 minutes to allow those off stage as it were to be able to um forward any questions that they might wish to have raised
01:04:36 raised which means that i'm going to ask you if you don't mind to conduct your re-examination if any now but if you tell me there's a good reason not to i'll uh gladly listen and persuade you to agree
01:04:49 persuade you to agree so i have nothing to ask your examination no thank you um
01:04:52 um ms lester i hope i can call you mrs without a fence no offense would you mind waiting for 20 minutes in the building if you're not going to anyway to listen to what
01:05:04 anyway to listen to what is going to take place later on today um
01:05:08 um just in case there are any questions from outside i think it's fairly unlikely but i don't know and one never knows but thank you very much indeed for coming and giving evidence i'm grateful to you
01:05:26 i'm grateful to you one of the things i am looking into is why the wrp was infiltrated by two officers
01:05:27 officers one of whom we have heard from the other one is not able to give evidence and we have to go on the documents that have been retrieved
01:05:38 been retrieved but thank you very much indeed grateful to you
01:05:44 to you now we'll now break for 10 minutes to enable the court the hearing room to be set up again so for our next witness thank you
01:20:49 all right please
01:21:09 mrs boss i understand you wish to take the oath is that right yes yes and mr flanders will administer it to you thank you
01:21:14 thank you please place your bible in your right hand and repeat after me i swear by almighty god i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give that the evidence i shall give will be the truth will be the truth the whole truth the whole
01:21:29 the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but nothing but the truth thank you chairman thank you sir mr moss could you give us your full name please
01:21:34 please barry moss you've provided us with two witness statements the second of which is dated the 26th of july
01:21:44 july 2021 are the contents of that witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief i answer
01:22:01 of your knowledge and belief i answer can i start with a few questions about your training i appreciate i may be taking you back a very long while i'm interested in any training that you had during the period between
01:22:12 period between 1968 and about 1983. during that period did you get any training about a police officer's powers of entry search
01:22:22 search and seizure
01:22:30 only in terms of the initial training at the police training school when i was a recruit i did do a cid course but i can't remember that was it within the period that you're talking about so i think it probably was so i did a cid course as
01:22:48 probably was so i did a cid course as well when that would have been covered and were you given any instruction at any stage about whether or not
01:22:59 whether or not those powers of entry search and seizure and perhaps more importantly the limitations uh on a police officer's entries powers of entry search and seizure were the same or different
01:23:10 same or different when you were operating in an undercover capacity
01:23:12 capacity no the question of undercover working wasn't wasn't covered in any of those courses
01:23:20 courses did you ever address your mind to whether or not those limitations on powers of entry
01:23:31 those limitations on powers of entry search and seizure still apply to an officer operating under cover uh no i suppose i didn't
01:23:40 can i ask you whether you were ever
01:23:44 ever given any training i appreciate this is a long shot on the european convention of human rights during the tranche one era no none at all sir and you've already confirmed in your witness statement
01:23:56 witness statement that you didn't receive any training on either the race relations act or the sex discrimination act
01:24:20 act in that period correct sir did you give any consideration at any time that you were working for the sds during the tranche one era to whether or not what you or the unit was doing was discriminatory either
01:24:24 either on racial grounds or on grounds of sex uh no sir because i don't believe it was discriminatory in either of those cases that's
01:24:35 that's slightly two different questions the first question is did you ever address your mind to it at all no sir
01:24:51 uh were you trained on pelian principles sir robert peale's nine principles of policing no sir at any time at hendon or brams hill or on the cid course no i remember we all learnt the primary
01:25:06 no i remember we all learnt the primary objects of policing which were allegedly put down by sir richard mayne but but nothing other than that so let me let me try you with a few i'm just going to the second pelian principle is the ability of the police to perform their
01:25:19 ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions was that your understanding at the time well i suppose in the more excuse me modern era so that would be called
01:25:32 modern era so that would be called policing by consent somebody's familiar with it in that guys yes and were you familiar with it in that guys back in 1968 probably not so now the police must secure the willing
01:25:44 the police must secure the willing cooperation of the public involuntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public
01:25:52 public principles that i would agree with sir but i wasn't aware of them at that time if you weren't aware of them as specific principles did you have any
01:26:04 principles did you have any consciousness that you needed to police in a way which would maintain the respect of the public
01:26:14 again perhaps not so much at that time and the third one is principle seven police at all times should maintain a
01:26:27 police at all times should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time
01:26:44 public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence yes i was aware of that so not necessarily appealing principle because i hadn't heard of that but certainly from courses at brams hill that issue
01:26:55 issue would have been debated and
01:26:59 and did you accept it and understand it yes sir
01:27:04 sir can i move now to 1968 when you joined the sds
01:27:08 the sds unfortunately conrad dixon has passed away so we can't ask him
01:27:17 just in case were you aware of whether or not mr dixon or any other
01:27:31 or any other senior officer setting up the sds took any legal advice when doing so i wasn't aware sir
01:27:39 were you given by detective chief inspector dixon or anyone else any legal guidance or advice before you embarked upon work as an undercover officer no sir
01:28:01 you i think were quite new to special branch when you started as an undercover officer yes i've been in special branch probably for a matter of months before i was chosen how did you know what to report
01:28:15 the met police had a bad time at the earlier growth in the square demonstration and the general instructions were given then
01:28:23 then was to get as much information as we could about the organizations which have been involved in the earlier violence to assist in the policing of the later demonstration which was scheduled
01:28:39 you infiltrated mainly [Music]
01:28:43 [Music] meetings of groups which had maoist tendencies didn't you yes sir and your reporting was about the conduct of their meetings and what they were
01:28:58 of their meetings and what they were discussing yes sir some of it pertained to the 27th of october demonstration that was forthcoming some of it didn't
01:29:04 what i would like to know is was there any common understanding that you should be reporting on all of it as opposed to just that which went to the demonstration the common understanding
01:29:15 the common understanding as i understood it was that we should report on all of it and where did you get that understanding from
01:29:28 i can't be specific sir it was the general ethos within the office
01:29:33 office i i don't think mr dixon sat us down and told us that it was a general understanding i can't be more specific i'm afraid can we look at one specific document from that era it's mps-073929
01:29:56 now this is a report dated the 25th of september 1968 about the october 27th committee for solidarity with vietnam
01:30:11 solidarity with vietnam and it says it was a meeting which lasted between 7 30 p.m and 10 15 p.m at then we've re redacted the address for privacy reasons home of privacy privacy
01:30:25 privacy so this appears to be a report of a meeting
01:30:29 meeting that took place in a pr in a private home is that right yes sir and if we scroll down please
01:30:37 and then over the page please
01:30:46 we see the content of the meeting and if we can go down further we see the signature block is uh we've redacted your signature but it's your name you signed that report didn't you
01:30:58 name you signed that report didn't you yes sir and was that uh because it was you who attended that meeting yes sir were you given any um advice or guidance as to
01:31:10 as to whether or not you should enter a private home to listen in on the content of an activist meeting no specific guidance sir but
01:31:23 no specific guidance sir but the general ethos was that we should do what was necessary to get the best information possible pertaining to the forthcoming demonstration
01:31:40 the forthcoming demonstration what was your understanding at the time of the legal position as to whether or not it was lawful for you as a police officer
01:31:42 officer to enter someone's home
01:31:55 we're given no specific guidance for activities in this particular case i think my understanding
01:32:00 of the rules in
01:32:02 in normal work would have been fairly clear
01:32:10 i had no idea
01:32:13 no idea that this may have been illegal as i've seen from from miss kilroy's submission earlier to this inquiry
01:32:29 uh would it be fair to say no consideration was given to the question as to whether or not it was yes that's probably the best way of putting it
01:32:35 could i have a yes no answer to the next question please when you were operating undercover did you have a birth certificate
01:32:46 can we move now from your
01:32:50 from your short stint as an undercover officer in the sds
01:32:52 the sds to your time in sea squad between then and you're assuming the position of head of the sds
01:33:03 position of head of the sds you have told us in your witness statement
01:33:07 statement why it is that we have three reports from 1971
01:33:10 from 1971 which are signed by you
01:33:22 which are signed by you at a time when you were not in the sds and the short explanation is you were working as a detective inspector in c-squad
01:33:23 c-squad and these were sds intelligence reports which crossed your desk in the course of that work yes sir
01:33:34 now first of all if we could have up please
01:33:35 please mps0735902
01:33:41 so this is tab one of the bundle
01:33:49 now this is the minute sheet or cover sheet perhaps you can tell me what the correct nomenclature is minute sheet minute sheet
01:34:02 sheet minute sheet for a report dated the 1st of november and you have told us in your witness statement that this is your handwriting yes sir
01:34:07 yes sir so as a
01:34:10 so as a c-squad detective inspector you are recording where this report should go yes sir
01:34:18 yes sir did you receive the report in its written form from the sds or did you write this up from notes
01:34:28 notes no i would have received that report that would arrive in my entry and i would have actioned it accordingly uh
01:34:36 uh you've decided on well is it you who's making the decision as to where this this information goes i was fairly junior in those days sir
01:34:49 i was fairly junior in those days sir and what would have happened was that uh i
01:34:50 i wrote the minute and
01:34:56 and next to the date you'll see the initials which are my initials and then the chief superintendent um would have looked at what i'd done to make sure i was doing things right and if he satisfied that he would have signed it off
01:35:08 signed it off so would it be fair to say you are making a decision and your decision is being checked by a superior officer yes
01:35:19 and on what basis do you make the decision
01:35:24 from [Music]
01:35:32 [Music] i was relatively junior in those days i already said but from experience from the contents of the report um
01:35:33 um and generally speaking if this was an sds report i
01:35:42 i it was probably even routinely sent to security service i can't remember what room 892 was but d.i wilson i'm guessing was the
01:35:55 was the di in charge of the section who had a particular interest in monitoring whatever that group was it's an organizational file as you can tell from the 400 prefix and pa means put away in special branch records yes
01:36:08 records yes could we go over the page please
01:36:16 now i'm not too interested in the contents of this report um i'm interested right at the bottom please on the left
01:36:29 there is a manuscript uh
01:36:30 uh note which reads s9090
01:36:40 you've suggested in your witness statement that you think the s may stand for s squad yes sir the inquiries understanding is that s squad of special branch didn't exist until 1974.
01:36:54 until 1974. can you help us with whether we are wrong about that or whether your recollection now uh may be wrong well i'm just looking closer to see whether actually said b but uh my
01:37:09 my my response will still be the same that that that was the way that the quantity of work
01:37:18 of work was measured not necessarily the quality um and the prefix letter in my
01:37:27 in my recollection just pertains to the squad from which it originated if we move on from the letter to the number if the number is an indication of quantity
01:37:38 quantity is that an indication of the quantity of reports which is coming
01:37:46 coming across your desk on c squad or is it an indication of some other quantity my recollection and this is a bit hazy and bear in mind there are no computers in those days
01:37:59 computers in those days is that there was a central register maintained in special branch and the first report submitted anywhere in special branch at the beginning of the year would have been number one
01:38:11 the year would have been number one and then the numbers would creep up over the year and to
01:38:18 and to each squad would take a block of numbers and use those numbers for their reports until that block of numbers was used up then they'd go and get another block from this central register
01:38:30 from this central register so this would have been report 9090 in special branch it wouldn't necessarily have been report 9090 from s squad or whichever squad it was and it follows from that answer it's not a
01:38:42 it follows from that answer it's not a measure of how many reports the sds had produced
01:38:51 when you were working on c squad and an intelligence such as this was crossing your desk did you have any responsibility for preparing threat assessments for a8
01:39:03 no i didn't sir that that would have been done
01:39:04 been done by
01:39:11 by someone else on c squad and not not by me sitting in that chair at that time did you ever have the uh job of preparing threat assessments for a8 i probably did once or twice so yes i didn't actually spend much time on c squad
01:39:24 squad so i was aware of them i did a few of them probably not that many can you help us then in in rough terms what the process involved of preparing a threat assessment for a8
01:39:38 it would be done by the
01:39:47 di usually in charge of the section that had the most knowledge of that particular organization
01:39:56 he would or she would call on their knowledge of the organizations involved their personal knowledge
01:40:01 knowledge they would draw files of the organization involved and that would include any sds reporting and they would combine their experience
01:40:12 and they would combine their experience with what was on record and produce the threat assessment now with these threat assessments uh which was for specific forthcoming events at which it was
01:40:25 forthcoming events at which it was thought there might be a public order issue
01:40:26 issue or were they more general no they were for a particular
01:40:33 demonstration
01:40:42 i appreciate your experience practical experience of doing this was limited and do save you can't help us but from the ones that you compiled were you able to tell which was the sds
01:40:54 you able to tell which was the sds intelligence and which was intelligence from other sources
01:40:59 yes in that
01:41:00 in that the
01:41:02 the sds reports the preamble
01:41:15 sds reports the preamble usually gave an indication that it came from sds if you understood the system and are you able then to recall any specific forthcoming demonstration or other event where you filled out a threat assessment which was at least in part informed by sds
01:41:29 at least in part informed by sds intelligence no i can't answer not at this length of time does it follow from that that you are not able to help us with
01:41:40 not able to help us with quantifying the contribution that sds intelligence made to any threat assessment that you were a party to it does say yes
01:41:57 can we move now to another question in case you can help and if you can't say so
01:41:58 so could we have up ucpr 5035070
01:42:16 can we scroll down until we can see something please thank you
01:42:18 thank you um
01:42:26 um we think that this is the registry file record sheet of diane langford we think there's a misspelling who was
01:42:38 who was who is one of our core participants uh
01:42:43 uh is that what this is yes sir uh
01:42:47 uh there are various dates in the left-hand column
01:42:54 column they largely run chronologically but not entirely so i can take you to an example if you would like to see one but otherwise can you just help us in general terms how it might be
01:43:11 might be that on a record sheet there might be entries out of chronological order yes um the
01:43:17 the record system we had in those days was
01:43:25 was for its time a very sophisticated paper only system which obviously predates computers
01:43:33 computers and the purpose of the record sheet was to give cross references to other places other files where a report concerning um diane langford were to be found
01:43:44 langford were to be found these are all put in manually uh by a staff of
01:43:46 staff of oh
01:43:47 oh um
01:43:49 um several dozens of of
01:43:51 of of people
01:43:56 people and the reports would come from the squads
01:44:00 squads and it would just depend which report reached which clerk at which time so if you had reports coming from different sources it might get to clark a
01:44:11 a um who might have the record sheet and then
01:44:14 and then uh someone else would ask for the file to add something they had on their desk which might just be out of sequence so the the dates are the dates of the report not the dates when they were
01:44:28 report not the dates when they were input onto the record sheet thank you could we have page eight of this document please
01:44:39 and could we scroll down yes thank you i'm interested in the
01:44:41 the yes from the 20th of may 1971 a pattern starts of letters appearing to the right of the date
01:44:53 the right of the date sometimes some of them say sp some of them say c can you help us as to what those acronyms or what those letters mean yes that that
01:45:05 what those letters mean yes that that refers to the classification of the file we um
01:45:07 we um we used to use three the government has a system of paper classification which uh we used to follow but for
01:45:18 which uh we used to follow but for reasons which i can't really enlighten you about in any great detail we had two classifications of secret file
01:45:25 file so the c stands for confidential we i don't think ever dealt with anything at the lower classification which was restricted so that didn't exist in special branch
01:45:36 exist in special branch but we had two classifications of of secret file one was secret pink and the other was secret green the secret pink files were fairly uh
01:45:51 the secret pink files were fairly uh easily available to anyone in special branch and the secret greens were slightly more highly classified and they would not be uh given out freely to
01:45:58 freely to staff members even vetted staff members usually because there was something perhaps one or two items a bit more
01:46:11 perhaps one or two items a bit more sensitive on them so sp means secret pink siemens confidential thank you very much uh
01:46:14 uh can we take that down now please did you ever sit on the industrial desk no sir
01:46:32 when you were working in c-squad or indeed anywhere else in special branch did you ever pass requests for intelligence down to
01:46:36 down to the sds
01:46:45 i don't think so sir but i i didn't really spend that much time on sea squad i because i've been on a particular course i was being rotated around the squads to
01:46:53 squads to to sort of broaden my experience and so my time on sequel was quite limited and subsequently i didn't go back to c squad do you know whether your colleagues did that
01:47:06 colleagues did that i would imagine they did so yes when you say imagine do you know or or not no sorry i don't know thank you can we now move into the 1980s um i'd like to start by
01:47:19 um i'd like to start by anchoring the dates of your service as a manager within the sds the earliest document that we've been able to find is a document date of the 11th of february 1980 bearing your
01:47:33 11th of february 1980 bearing your signature in the capacity as a head of the sds
01:47:35 the sds do you think that's about when you started i think i probably started the month before that sir
01:47:45 you were promoted on the 5th of january 1981. can you recall whether that was the date you left the sds
01:47:57 you left the sds yes that came about because the previous postholder um retired
01:48:01 retired and um
01:48:02 and um i stayed on s squad so i still had overall responsibility for the sds but it was among other things
01:48:14 when you started was
01:48:20 was detective inspector butler acting up no sir when when i took over um chief inspector ferguson was still on the scene
01:48:26 the scene um mr butler was there but mr ferguson was the chief inspector until the day i took over did you get a handover
01:48:38 did you get a handover no i didn't so not from mr ferguson but mr butler was extremely helpful
01:48:49 uh did don't go into details when answering this question but did mr butler tell you in about all of the ucos who were operating within the sds yes sir um
01:49:01 um did mr butler cover what was going to be expected of you as a head of the sds
01:49:10 i wouldn't say he covered it in in words of one syllable i had an idea myself and i picked it up in fairly quick time i would say and where did you get the idea from because i've been a uco um
01:49:25 because i've been a uco um in 12 years previously albeit the operation was a very different one to the one i left were you told
01:49:43 were you told either at the outset of your service as head of the sds or at any other time that there had been in the past a problem
01:49:48 problem with an undercover officer having been confronted with the death certificate of the child whose identity he had used i was aware of it sir but i'm not sure where i
01:50:00 where i got to know about it can you help us with when you got to know about it
01:50:08 it may have been when i
01:50:10 when i joined well rejoined the sds i i can't be more specific but i was aware of it and aware of it whilst you were the head of the sds yes sir
01:50:26 we may come back to that in a little while
01:50:28 while were you told um
01:50:35 about any past or present instance
01:50:45 instance of an undercover police officer having been involved in sexual activity with anybody
01:50:46 anybody in his undercover identity no sir
01:50:53 were you told in general terms that this was something that either was or might be happening no sir
01:51:14 specifically um and you may want to use the chart you've got uh whether hn 300 had married an activist so i haven't got the chance sir we should have a
01:51:26 we should have a key for you to
01:51:30 to make sure you know who we're talking about without using the name well perhaps while that's being found i will move on
01:51:43 did you hear any uh statement or rumor about an undercover officer uh having his cover blown as a result of being involved with women whilst undercover no sir
01:52:07 did you get any instruction or guidance or was there any discussion at all about the legality or ethics of what the sds was doing whilst you were the head of the unit no sir
01:52:19 were you given a briefing about what was being gathered by the sds when you started as its head i wasn't given a briefing so but i think i would say i was probably fairly well
01:52:36 i would say i was probably fairly well aware from my previous experience albeit a long time previously and i was aware what the sds was for well there had been quite a change hadn't there between the early days and the focus on the vietnam solidarity committee and
01:52:51 committee and other groups that were involved in organizing the 27th of october demonstration on the one hand and by the time we get to 1980 when there is deployment across a much wider field
01:53:02 a much wider field for much longer terms how when did you become aware that the sds was operating in that that different way
01:53:16 different way well i suppose within a couple of weeks sir from
01:53:21 my talks with mr butler and from seeing the product
01:53:26 when you did establish
01:53:33 establish which groups were being infiltrated by the undercover officers under your command
01:53:34 command were there any surprises yes i was surprised at the level of coverage of the swp
01:53:50 and we'll come back to that a little later
01:53:56 were you given any introduction before you actually met them face to face about the relationship between the sds and the security service
01:54:11 uh no sir but i would say i was aware of it
01:54:12 it because although i didn't spend much time on c squad i've been in special branch in in various other roles i was aware of the links of special branch in general with the security service
01:54:29 were you told anything about the unit's relationship with a8 well the unit itself didn't have a direct relationship with aa the relationship with aaa was with with c squad
01:54:41 squad i'd understood that there were occasions when
01:54:42 when either the detective chief inspector or the detective inspector might telephone a8 direct with urgent intelligence sorry i understand what you mean yes that that would happen occasionally but it was
01:54:56 would happen occasionally but it was only if it was with something urgent i understand the question
01:55:02 was there a direct relationship with b and c squads with c squad definitely with b squad less so
01:55:16 and what was your relationship with c squad whilst you were dci of the sds
01:55:28 it's difficult to put it in formal words special ranch was even then a relatively small
01:55:29 small organization and
01:55:35 and relationships were on quite an informal basis
01:55:36 basis i'm not quite sure where you're going well let me try this
01:55:47 where you're going well let me try this um if i've understood correctly when you first take up the post you are based in scotland yard yes sir and you are either on a corridor or not very far away
01:55:59 away from the superintendent who is next above you in the chain of command yes sir
01:56:03 yes sir and are you not very far away from c squad either correct sir
01:56:14 i am wanting to understand whether the relationship that you have with sea squad is
01:56:17 is one where you are frequently talking to officers within sea squad because you're in the same building
01:56:28 you're in the same building very close to one another in physical proximity
01:56:34 proximity and you are providing intelligence to see squad is there a regular dialogue an ad hoc dialogue sir probably not a regular
01:56:41 regular and when you when you say ad hoc could you help us a little paint the picture of what day-to-day life was like
01:56:53 the days might pass when i'd have nothing to do with c-squad whatsoever but if there was something particular coming up that they wanted perhaps particular help on
01:57:06 particular help on then they might ask me to go along to their office or pop down to see us [Music]
01:57:13 [Music] that's what i mean that's what i mean by ad hoc and how frequently did that sort of request get made
01:57:21 again if if there was a need if there was uh
01:57:22 was uh a big demonstration expected uh then they might come to us uh asking if
01:57:29 if we could help in a particular area uh but it wasn't a regular thing it's more a sort of routine and often done by a paperwork i would say
01:57:42 paperwork i would say and how often were you getting paper requests from c squad with specific intelligence requests
01:58:02 i i couldn't really answer that sir um could you help us with whether we're talking daily weekly monthly less frequently than that uh
01:58:08 maybe between weekly and monthly it was more if i if i can help um it was more us knowing more or less what c-squad wanted from sort of long understanding of how special branch worked even though i
01:58:21 special branch worked even though i personally hadn't spent that much time in c squad and providing what we believed they needed and if we were giving them things they didn't want
01:58:33 giving them things they didn't want or if we weren't giving things they did want that is when the interaction will take place and is this an understanding which starts
01:58:38 starts with the
01:58:39 with the course when an officer joins special branch and then is developed through experience
01:58:47 yes that is probably fair comment
01:58:55 when you started with the sds were you told um that officers were using deceased children's identities as part of their undercover identities yes sir
01:59:11 and that was obviously a change from the position in 1968 certainly we'll come back to that in a little more detail later were you told anything about how
01:59:26 how the targets which your officers were infiltrating had been selected
01:59:34 i wasn't specifically told this on the day i started um but i i gained an understanding of it in fairly quick time and it was
01:59:51 based on the perhaps not the present needs the future needs of the branch as they perceived in terms of the organizations which were likely to be more involved or most involved in public disorder
02:00:02 disorder did you know who had made the decisions as to where to place the officers who were already deployed when you took up the reigns
02:00:16 up the reigns no i didn't know where those decisions were made i know how we dealt with it subsequently we'll come to hn19 we'll come to that in due course were you
02:00:27 were you asked or told to review the deployments that were extant when you joined the sds no um
02:00:40 the sds no um i would have liked to review them because as i mentioned a few minutes ago i i thought that we had perhaps too much coverage of the
02:00:51 coverage of the swp
02:00:58 swp was there any expectation that you would conduct any form of review of deployments
02:01:07 no it would have been something that was up to me to do but the trouble with the an organization like the sds is you cannot just easily move people around once they're well entrenched and so it is almost a question of waiting for
02:01:21 it is almost a question of waiting for someone to go and then not backfilling that vacancy
02:01:29 can i infer from your answer that you were not directing your mind to whether or not a
02:01:31 or not a existing deployment was serving any purpose
02:01:39 purpose any useful purpose and should therefore be terminated i did always have that in mind um but the problem is that if you decide um a deployment
02:01:55 if you decide um a deployment is is not serving any useful purpose i don't think any of them i would say serve no useful purpose the only way of terminating is is to move an experienced officer out and not
02:02:08 move an experienced officer out and not replace him and then you've got to bring in someone inexperienced and put him somewhere else him or her now
02:02:12 now without going into specifics at this stage
02:02:14 stage were there any of the deployments on your watch that you thought were serving
02:02:22 serving no useful
02:02:24 no useful policing purpose
02:02:32 no i don't think the worser i'm driving at whether there were any that you thought were of use only to the security service i see
02:02:46 i suppose my my comments about the swp were that maybe we could have got the same
02:02:51 level of intelligence with perhaps fewer officers in the swp but for reasons i've explained i didn't feel that we could usefully withdraw people at that stage and yes certainly the securities were
02:03:03 and yes certainly the securities were interested in in all our swp reporting we'll certainly come to that in in due course in more detail but at this stage what i'm asking is were there any deployments you regarded were being
02:03:17 deployments you regarded were being conducted purely for the benefit of the security service no so what we gave them was a if you like a byproduct of our need for intelligence about
02:03:29 about public disorder can we look please uh at a document now it's mps-0728963
02:03:38 that's tab 10 sir
02:03:46 now what's come up first is a covering uh letter
02:03:47 uh letter to the sds 1979 report could we go to page nine please
02:04:06 now i appreciate mr moss that this was a report for the year before you were responsible for the sds but it was dated the covering letter is dated
02:04:13 is dated april
02:04:18 april it's signed off by detective inspector butler
02:04:22 butler but presumably you would have seen this document
02:04:25 document before it was sent up the chain of command
02:04:28 command yes sir i think i would i've certainly seen it i can't quite remember when if we could scroll down to the bottom so we can read paragraph seven
02:04:52 paragraph seven starts with the sentence at a time when covert police activity is being subjected to increasingly close and critical scrutiny it remains of vital importance that all possible precautions should be taken to safeguard the identities of field
02:05:08 safeguard the identities of field officers and the anonymity of hq flats can you help us uh with what the increasingly close and critical scrutiny was
02:05:17 was i can't say no can you help us uh with whether it was generally the
02:05:28 uh with whether it was generally the perception that operational security was of paramount importance
02:05:38 yes i i would say it was um to the best of my knowledge there was no other organization in the country or even in the world who was that was doing what we were doing um
02:05:54 and we believed that our methods and the identities of the individuals um needed safeguarding
02:06:04 were you aware of concerns being expressed in the home office
02:06:07 office around the time that you are the head of the sds
02:06:12 the sds about the role of special branch generally
02:06:17 generally in support of the security service no i wasn't sir not at the time
02:06:27 can i come back to cover identities please
02:06:34 were you aware of any previous compromises of undercover police officers in the sds only the one that we've already mentioned so
02:06:45 mentioned so the one that involved the death certificate yes
02:07:00 did you give any thought to the fact that there was a risk that your officers might also have their deceased child's
02:07:01 child's death certificates discovered
02:07:08 yes of course so once the um i was aware of the earlier one that we've already spoken about that's that's always a risk but it's a risk that we had to take because in those days
02:07:20 because in those days there was no other way of getting the supporting documents which we needed without a birth certificate
02:07:30 oh you mean a passport and so on were any of your
02:07:39 your officers on your watch asked to produce a birth certificate by the by the group say we're infiltrating not that i'm aware of now
02:07:52 when your officers built their legends do you know whether they did it entirely on their own
02:08:02 own or with assistance from other members of the unit
02:08:10 i think that probably depends i don't know the answer for that so but i'm guessing it depended on the uh attitude and the need for support of of the officer undertaking the research and in you
02:08:21 and in you on your watch it wasn't a frequent occurrence was it it wasn't no
02:08:27 did you delegate supervision of the creation of the identities because you've told us that you didn't do it yourself
02:08:33 yourself you know i didn't do it for me personally so is that what you need no i mean your witness statement as i understand it says that you didn't take a personal hand in overseeing the
02:08:46 a personal hand in overseeing the creation of a cover identity by any of your subordinates that's correct i'm asking whether you delegated that job or whether you just left the offices to it left the officers to it sir
02:09:03 did you check or test how robust the cover legends were
02:09:07 i didn't personally know sir
02:09:15 did you consider the ethics of using a deceased child's identity yes i did so um you know particularly with hindsight i suppose um
02:09:26 with hindsight i suppose um but as i've just said i didn't see any other way of of being able to get the supporting documents
02:09:36 documents than having a birth certificate and with hindsight perhaps we could have done it well i don't we could have done it another way
02:09:51 there is another question though was it actually necessary uh for your officers to have
02:09:52 to have the additional protection that comes from having a birth certificate and i don't want you to go into details but anything else that flowed from that
02:10:11 i i think we did need it because unlike many other undercover deployments out were for a period of several years whereas many other undercover deployments elsewhere in the police service
02:10:18 service were just for a manner of weeks and identities were unlikely to be so severely challenged were any of the officers on your watch the subject of close scrutiny not i'm aware of i know
02:10:36 can i take it from earlier answers you've given me about the legal position that you didn't address your mind to whether or not the use of deceased children's identities was lawful or not i didn't say no
02:10:52 having been aware of the compromise where the officer
02:10:55 officer was confronted with his death certificate did you accept that there might be a risk
02:11:00 risk that a family might find out if another officer was so compromised
02:11:18 yes i did sir but i suppose on the balance of probabilities this i i don't know when the practice of using dead children's identities started but clearly had been going on for five six years before i came back and that had been the only incident so i thought that the chances of it happening again would probably remote
02:11:39 was there a black folder with advice and guidance for undercover police officers so i've thought about this since reading submissions and i don't recall seeing one i have no doubt it was but i
02:11:50 seeing one i have no doubt it was but i i i don't recall seeing it was there any other form of written material to help the officers not that i remember seeing
02:12:01 now you've said in your witness statement that you didn't provide your officers with any guidance um
02:12:02 um why not
02:12:04 why not guidance in what what are you sir in any in terms of any any training
02:12:15 in any in terms of any any training because the system that i inherited which i thought was a good system um
02:12:15 um was that
02:12:17 was that while in the back office they assisted him processing the reports they had time to create their identity and legend and more importantly they
02:12:29 and legend and more importantly they came out to the meetings at the safe house every often twice a week and they had every opportunity to speak to existing officers well my next question is how
02:12:40 officers well my next question is how would officers know what they could and couldn't do
02:12:50 in the absence of any formal guidance they had informal guidance sir
02:12:53 sir and it is difficult to give precise guidance in a
02:12:58 in a sort of undercover field that we were operating on it almost requires them to come back and say i find myself in this situation how should i deal with that
02:13:09 should i deal with that rather than us saying you can do this you can't do that so would it be fair to characterize the way this was dealt with as entirely reactive
02:13:25 reactive and and based on experience that had gone before so some guidance but it was informal guidance
02:13:34 produced in response to issues being raised by officers and things that had happened are you saying that you would you would have prospectively said look this has happened be aware don't do that do this yes sir
02:13:47 do this yes sir can you think of any specific examples without naming the names of any officers
02:14:03 well i think everyone was aware of the the incident that we've already spoken about where the birth and death certificate was was produced
02:14:07 produced um
02:14:18 it didn't happen on my watch as far as i'm aware but people were aware of arrests that had happened and so what to do if arrested um
02:14:26 there's the main sort of fields that i can
02:14:27 can think of
02:14:33 coming back to targeting and hn19
02:14:36 and hn19 um
02:14:38 um hn 19 was targeted towards the revolutionary communist party in the revolutionary communist party of britain marxist leninist
02:14:57 did you communicate that decision to him so i still haven't got the key so i still don't know who hm19 is or was
02:14:59 is or was i
02:15:00 i i think i know the name but i'm not going to i'm not going to chance it
02:15:10 i mean answering your question without knowing who we're talking about sir no don't do that that's not fair when we've got the key we'll we'll come back to that actually can't be dealt
02:15:21 back to that actually can't be dealt with in this way this is the officer who was deployed for the first time during your watch right sir thank you um
02:15:32 i can't remember whether it was me or whether it was trevor butler who who told him where he was going sir um but you do know of whom i'm speaking i do now so yes
02:15:45 who actually made the decision as to where
02:15:46 where hn 19 was going to be deployed
02:15:57 again i can't exactly remember sir it was probably uh jointly maybe between
02:16:05 squad myself
02:16:10 myself trevor butler i really can't remember i mean i'd already said that i felt that we had over coverage of sw i certainly wouldn't have wanted him to go there
02:16:20 i'm getting the impression uh that there was
02:16:23 was essentially a consultation and discussion between sea squad and within the sds management is that unfair that's absolutely fair so we would not have single-handedly decided where to where to put people and if
02:16:37 where to where to put people and if they'd been it was well was there any disagreement about this particular yes not aware of that no if there had been any disagreement who would have had the final say
02:16:53 probably c squad sir is that because they would have outranked you no um if they were our term i don't like they were our customers um we were there to serve them not the other way around and by sea squad were you talking to the
02:17:07 by sea squad were you talking to the chief superintendent the superintendent or somebody else
02:17:14 it would have been somewhere in in that area of ranking so and it was it would have been probably an informal chat one afternoon you know we've we've got a new officer
02:17:27 officer where would be an area that you particularly would would like him to go
02:17:28 him to go if we can agree that was there any consideration of deploying into the far right yes there was
02:17:46 yes there was not not with regard to this particular individual it is something that that probably just trevor butler and i discussed
02:17:49 discussed may have gone higher up the rank structure
02:17:59 and i think there was probably a policy decision at that time not to deploy one into the fire right because they were too violent and we were concerned what the officer may have to do to prove his credentials
02:18:14 did you consider it any part of your role
02:18:18 role when discussing where hn 19 should be deployed
02:18:22 deployed to consider whether or not there were alternative ways of getting the same product for your customer
02:18:31 um
02:18:36 no i suppose i suppose i didn't as specifically as that i mean it's always a consideration can you get this information from some other source but
02:18:46 but you never
02:18:51 you never quite know what you're going to get from the other source until you try it by which time it might be too late um can i take it from your earlier answers about the law that
02:19:04 answers about the law that you didn't that you were taking into consideration your customers needs and the safety of your officers but you were and the public but you are not taking into account any legal considerations
02:19:18 legal considerations and you are not making any assessment of the proportionality of the intrusion into privacy weighed against the value of the product for policing purposes
02:19:32 i suppose not at that time so no
02:19:49 do you think it would have been a good idea to have had a formal review of deployments periodically
02:19:57 with hindsight yes i do the the problem as i said sir is is with the deep entrenchment of the sds officers
02:20:06 officers it was not that easy possibly even impossible to move them from one
02:20:11 from one field to another so the only option would be to actually remove someone altogether which may have been an option of course
02:20:19 of course and
02:20:25 and can i take it that if you had been provided with formal training um
02:20:30 um about the legal parameters in which you should work or any legal advice you would have followed those procedures and any such advice oh absolutely sir
02:20:44 from these rather legalistic questions can we move to something a little bit more political uh you were
02:20:57 uh you were imposed just after the 1979 general election which brought about a significant political change in the country
02:21:06 did you change in any way the intelligence that was being gathered as a result of the outcome of the 1979 general election
02:21:20 no so we didn't i mean the night the early 80s were a sort of febrile
02:21:24 febrile time for all the reasons that you've you've
02:21:32 you've outlined i mean inflation was high unemployment was high industrial unrest was high
02:21:38 was high there are certainly a very large number of demonstrations in 1980
02:21:45 a dozen or so that required a thousand police officers um
02:21:49 um many more that required over 100 police officers even that's a a pretty large chunk of of policing
02:22:01 a pretty large chunk of of policing so i would say that we were reporting in 1980 on
02:22:05 1980 on uh probably five or six public order events plus of course there was quite a lot of picketing going on as a result probably of the of the new government coming in
02:22:16 coming in order which required police coverage and we may well have reported on that as well in a public disorder since so the volume went up volume went up dramatically and it carried on the
02:22:30 dramatically and it carried on the following year as well so in fact went up the following year was there any change in the nature of
02:22:32 of uh requests for information as to targets coming from either sea squad or the security service as a result of the change of government
02:22:44 result of the change of government no i don't i don't recall anything specific as a result of the change of government certainly not from sea squad i mean as you're aware we had fairly regular meetings with the security service
02:22:58 service in fact the minutes i've been shown more regular than i realized um
02:23:02 um they would often try and influence our deployments and i suppose we would accede to their requests if they didn't cut across our primary responsibility
02:23:17 cut across our primary responsibility which was public disorder and always was everything on the subversive side was a byproduct
02:23:20 byproduct of the public order work that we were doing
02:23:26 doing we'll be coming to those documents in just a moment before we do so is one further question in the
02:23:28 in the 1981
02:23:30 1981 election
02:23:32 election ken livingston became the leader of the greater london council
02:23:40 council i think he had the tabloid persona red ken
02:23:42 ken was there any change in intelligence request and in particular did anybody ask you to report on him no sir
02:23:55 so we've had one break this morning already but might it be a good idea to have another short break yes i think everybody may need to stretch their legs um can we say um ten minutes
02:24:10 can we say um ten minutes that completely dead sir yes fine we'll suit you we'll break for ten minutes we'll start again at a quarter past
02:36:37 all rise please
02:36:54 so thank you
02:36:59 we're going to move now to the minutes that we've recovered from the security service describing meetings that they had with you amongst others
02:37:10 others whilst you were the head of the sds
02:37:11 sds can we go to the first one uh please it's in tab eight of the bundle sir it's at ucpi
02:37:27 this is dated the 24th of march 1980 so not very long after you had started
02:37:35 i'm going to take you through this step at a time
02:37:37 at a time we start with paragraph 1 f6 from the security service and i met the new head of sds barry moss and trevor butler for drinks
02:37:49 and trevor butler for drinks in csh is csh their premises it was cursed street how sir on the 17th of march 1980
02:38:00 on the 17th of march 1980 we thank them for the flow of valuable reports that they provided and in particular the recent detailed report on the
02:38:11 the img world congress d.i butler promised that a further long report on the img was in the course of preparation was it your general understanding that the security service were very grateful for the information that you were providing to them
02:38:23 providing to them yes sir did you get the impression that that was politeness or whether they were genuine they found it genuinely valuable i think they found it genuinely valuable sir
02:38:34 sir and without going into any specific details can you help us as to what lies beneath that view
02:38:51 in my excuse me my very early days in special branch going back to 68 i was on c-squad then and our work was predicated by by a request after request after request from from the security service for
02:39:06 from the security service for information about the cpgb the communist party of great britain and that was really our bread and butter that hadn't really changed and so when i became head of the uh sds
02:39:19 became head of the uh sds their cpgb by then was was more or less defunct but of course have been replaced in their minds by the swp and
02:39:28 and i think that we were probably their main source
02:39:31 source in the swp and i think they were genuinely grateful for it i mean this is a this particular thanks relates to the immigration yes but was it your so it's your general experience there were particularly the left-wing groups left-wing as they saw
02:39:43 left-wing groups left-wing as they saw them subversive groups are these groups that i think are sometimes described as the ultra left yes sir the ones that are sometimes described as further left than they see pgb yes
02:39:55 paragraph two
02:40:00 appears to be you
02:40:02 you offering
02:40:04 offering a debrief
02:40:05 a debrief of one of your officers by the security service in other words offering
02:40:15 offering them access to your officer to speak about his deployment without naming names have i understood correctly yes sir
02:40:26 correctly yes sir and that appears to have been well received
02:40:27 received yes sir
02:40:32 yes sir do you know again without naming names whether that was something that had happened before i believe it had sir not in every case but uh from time to time and where have you got that belief from
02:40:45 that belief from i would imagine that trevor butler he was
02:40:55 was how can i put it my mentor to an extent and because i didn't have much of a handover from from mike ferguson i would imagine that trevor told me that
02:41:08 thank you if we can now go to paragraph three if i've understood that correctly the gist is that you are seeking feedback from them about
02:41:17 about the reporting that you were providing to them yes sir as i think i've touched on when we were talking about the numbers of reports at the beginning of my evidence it's very easy in the intelligence world to judge the quantity of material it's quite difficult to judge the
02:41:29 it's quite difficult to judge the quality of the material i imagine that's a problem even the security servers have with their own product so to get feedback from um
02:41:40 so to get feedback from um someone who received a lot of work from us uh
02:41:41 us uh would be valuable to us and without going into specifics did you get feedback i can't remember sir i would imagine so yes
02:41:54 would imagine so yes and if there had been feedback to the effective we want this more of this less of that would that have been fed into your conversations with your officers
02:42:07 yes but as i said before our primary objective was was demonstrations public order and anything we did for the security service was ancillary to that yes i
02:42:20 service was ancillary to that yes i think you've made that yes clearing earlier
02:42:23 earlier but on that point if we move to paragraph four you are described as very much more forthcoming than your predecessor who we know
02:42:40 than your predecessor who we know was michael ferguson and i go on to say and i think we can look forward to mutually useful cooperation so was it your view that subject to the fact that your primary mission was public order policing that you should be as helpful as possible in servicing
02:42:56 as helpful as possible in servicing the security services requests with that caveat sir yes
02:43:02 can we go to tab 11
02:43:05 tab 11 that is
02:43:06 that is ucpi five zeros two eight eight one four
02:43:20 now this is dated the eighth of april 1980.
02:43:22 1980. and the
02:43:24 and the paragraph two the document says the purpose of the meeting was to introduce me as f6
02:43:31 me as f6 f6's successor as the f6 point of contact with the sds now this meeting occurs
02:43:42 now this meeting occurs two weeks after the last one or thereabouts was that more frequent than normal or more very important so very much and is that explained by the fact that it was to introduce the new point of contact i imagine photo yes
02:43:59 now at the bottom of the page the bottom of paragraph five thank you
02:44:07 thank you uh the last couple of sentences well the last sentence two sentences read this discussion also highlighted the advantages they have over ourselves
02:44:20 the advantages they have over ourselves when butler told me that they meet their sources two to three times a week their sources are fully briefed and all options are discussed at these meetings and the picture i'm getting from that is they are
02:44:29 they are rather envious of the fact that you are using undercover police officers who you are meeting two or three times a week and can have a constant dialogue with
02:44:42 constant dialogue with about how they go about their business is that have i understood it correctly absolutely correctly sir one of the reasons uh for the creation of the sds was that
02:44:55 for the creation of the sds was that informants are notoriously difficult to to handle
02:44:57 to handle and
02:45:02 and uh that is backed up by by the comments at the end of that report
02:45:12 can we take that down please and now go to tab 16 in the bundle ucpi five zeros two eight
02:45:13 two eight one
02:45:20 and we've gone through to july 1980
02:45:28 and this is a meeting at which u and d.i butler
02:45:29 butler go to
02:45:31 go to f6 office
02:45:33 f6 office it's described as a routine meeting that's happening some four months after the last such meeting that we have a record of is that your recollection of about the usual frequency yes sir
02:45:49 and then at paragraph two
02:45:50 two a
02:45:56 a if i've understand stood that correctly the gist is they have got an out-of-date list
02:46:09 they have got an out-of-date list of where your offices are deployed and you are going to provide them with
02:46:12 with an up-to-date list yes sir
02:46:19 yes sir does it follow from that that we can assume that in this period at least the security service was fully cited on at least the fields that your officers were working in yes sir
02:46:42 and would they know the real and cover names of the officers as well no examples of course um
02:46:48 no it would have only been the cover names a little bit surprising this i my memory told me that that we didn't actually tell them the cover names we told them the groups but not the cover names but that looks as though we actually did give them the cover names
02:47:01 actually did give them the cover names we certainly wouldn't give them the real names
02:47:08 little b uh at the security services request i asked if the information contained in the paragraphs on the troops out movement could be passed to and then as reference to uh liaison partners
02:47:20 uh liaison partners was
02:47:22 was where requests to disseminate intelligence that had emanated from the sds
02:47:31 sds beyond the security service something that happened on more than this one occasion or not no sir i'm not i'm not aware of it ever happening other than on that occasion
02:47:42 that occasion and i think you explained in your witness statement that you when you made the statement you couldn't recall what the outcome of that request is
02:47:50 is without naming liaison partners is your recollection any better now uh the recollection isn't any better
02:48:03 uh the recollection isn't any better because also i have seen the unredacted one of this the recollection is no better but there had been problems in that area before i'm guessing that the outcome may have been no
02:48:15 we then move over the page please
02:48:24 to if i've interpreted properly a directory and specific request from the security service for more information on the revolutionary labor
02:48:34 labor league
02:48:35 league and then a discussion about that group were specific requests like this common
02:48:48 yes and perhaps not common but fairly regular
02:48:59 if we move down to the next sub-paragraph about the london workers group
02:49:05 you asked them if they were interested in the group they said yes and then you say that you will provide more information about that group to them i'm getting the impression
02:49:19 group to them i'm getting the impression of a real dialogue between professionals is that a fair depiction of what is going on yes sir
02:49:32 yes sir we each had our jobs to do we knew what their job was and and we're all
02:49:37 we're all on the same side as it were so i i would say yes we would cooperate with them as much as possible subject to our own needs so you weren't just passively responding to their requests if you thought there was something they'd be interested in you drew it to their attention
02:49:48 attention yes sir
02:49:50 yes sir um
02:49:52 um er about the debriefing of the officer whose real name we know is vince
02:50:03 vince harvey
02:50:09 do you know whether or not mr harvey
02:50:12 mr harvey actually
02:50:14 actually met
02:50:15 met with the security service no sir i don't
02:50:20 could we go to f
02:50:30 and there is a request which you're talking about membership details from the london area um
02:50:35 um intelligence are very much the sort i was
02:50:36 was dealing with yesterday when calling a senior member of the socialist workers party to what extent was the security service the driver
02:50:48 the driver behind collecting the membership details and similar intelligence from the swp's headquarters
02:51:03 the swp's headquarters uh i would say that they were the driver to collecting that sort of intelligence
02:51:08 if we look at the very bottom of the page it says dci moss said that their source achieved these results at some risk to himself
02:51:19 himself and would be much happier if the source did not
02:51:20 did not have to take this risk now i think we do have uh the cipher
02:51:31 now i think we do have uh the cipher list in the building now if you need it but my question is are we dealing with the officer hn155 cover named phil cooper who infiltrated the swp's headquarters it would have been him or one other
02:51:42 it would have been him or one other officer and is that the officer hn 80 cover name colin clark yes one of those two so exactly i'm getting the impression from this passage
02:51:53 passage that the sds was taking risks that it wouldn't otherwise have taken in order to
02:52:08 order to service a request from the security service is that a fair assessment um
02:52:12 um this is i suppose one of the issues so when giving directions which we discussed earlier it is very difficult you've got to lead it to the judgment of the individuals on the ground as to
02:52:23 the individuals on the ground as to whether that risk is a risk worth taking and if they say it isn't then you have to respect that judgment and not push them further would it be fair to say that the position here seems to have been the answer was reluctantly
02:52:36 to have been the answer was reluctantly yes i'll do it absolutely but making you know
02:52:37 know yes that the risk was increased by doing so so we would probably said look use your own judgment if you can't do it don't because it's more important to keep you
02:52:48 because it's more important to keep you there than to have you exposed for their sake
02:52:53 sake on your watch did you sense the pressure from the security service to push your officers further up the swp chain
02:53:07 your officers further up the swp chain if i describe it that way then you might otherwise have done no no i didn't feel there was no pressure to do that so i think they're grateful for what was achieved when they were further up the chain but
02:53:14 chain but in fairness to them i i don't remember any pressure from them to do it
02:53:23 to do it well looking at the utility of the information list membership
02:53:34 list membership membership lists and things like that they would be kept on special branch files as well as a security service everything we sent to them was duplicated on our files we kept as you would do in a normal business we kept copies of what we sent to them um
02:53:46 um special branches using them as part of its those records as its intelligence database on ultra left groups
02:53:53 groups special branches yes yes sir it's using it we'll come back perhaps later to this for vetting purposes
02:54:07 um i think i sense there's lack of clarity about the use of that word so i tell you what we'll come back to the whole topic later in that case but in terms of public order the primary purpose you've told us of the sds
02:54:27 membership lists aren't of of any immediate use or any use are they in policing public disorder well they're useful in that we need to know to please public order the the number of members of any given organizations
02:54:42 organizations and to take the stage further there's no point just knowing numbers you need to know the attitudes of those members if you've got 2000 members who are all totally
02:54:50 totally peaceful and and you visit the quaker meeting house on on sundays then that is useful to know because it's negative reporting
02:55:01 negative reporting but if you've got 2 000 members of whom 500 are pretty violent that is also useful to know and you need to know who they are
02:55:14 to know who they are but from a public order point of view don't you need to know that sort of intelligence about numbers demeanor
02:55:20 demeanor intentions in relation to a specific event
02:55:25 event yes you do sir but if the
02:55:26 the event is being organized by a so-and-so branch of the swp for argument's sake then your starting base is how many people does that branch have who are
02:55:37 people does that branch have who are they what are they like what sort of demonstration they likely to to organize then the next step would be which other branches can they
02:55:49 branches can they bring on board with them then the next step would be which other ultra left groups might they bring out to support them
02:55:54 them so that's why you need to know who the people are i'm getting the picture that the special branch officer sitting at his desk in sea squad
02:56:05 sea squad producing a threat assessment might be looking at this sort of material exactly is that fair absolutely right
02:56:18 if we could move on to the next page of the report please
02:56:26 i think in relation to the leveler it seems to be the discussion was effectively no need for you to infiltrate at the leveler and then in relation to freedom collective
02:56:38 collective um
02:56:39 um you are
02:56:42 you are putting somebody into uh freedom collective and discussing that with the security service yes sir now
02:56:53 now was the deployment into the freedom collective a deployment that was being made because it was considered to be a threat to public order
02:57:05 public order or as a stepping stone to some further ultimate target i don't know the answer that's i'm guessing
02:57:11 guessing a stepping stone
02:57:19 you then go to the bar for beer and sandwiches and
02:57:26 and could you just give us a flavor of
02:57:30 of whether you were talking about work or other things over beer and sandwiches i'm probably still talking about work sir
02:57:38 sir and so it's through that informal chain as well that the relation the relationship is cemented yes
02:57:44 yes and do you throw up anecdotes and that sort of thing
02:57:56 yes i suppose so like any uh sort of after work meeting there's a bit of work a bit of just exchange of i suppose personal information
02:58:06 now you've told us in your witness statement that in addition to these meetings that we've seen the records of there is also some telephone contact between you and the security service etc is that over an open line or over a secure line
02:58:21 secure line i think it was probably over a secure line i
02:58:24 line i i can't imagine us talking to over an open line so that's more substantive conversation about things like their requirements and so forth yes it wouldn't be um
02:58:42 a formal request for us to sort of change direction or or something like that but it would more likely be passing us a little bit of updating information or a last minute request for something or vice versa
02:58:57 in direct contact between the sds and the security service you say in your statement that c-squad had daily contact with the security service
02:59:09 and i wanted to know how you knew that how it worked and what its relevance was to the sds if i can roll three questions into one right i i should probably have put in my opinion uh to that statement
02:59:20 uh to that statement and it was based on my my relatively short time in a management role on c squad in my earlier time in a very junior role on on c squad
02:59:33 junior role on on c squad c squad had done the management had secure phones on their desks the more junior ranks weren't allowed to talk to the security service
02:59:44 talk to the security service um given the necessary interface leaving aside the
02:59:46 aside the demonstration side of things the necessary interface between c-squad and the security service
02:59:57 the security service my assumption was that the contact would be pretty
02:59:58 be pretty regular
02:59:59 regular so it's more an opinion so does that answer your question uh well i think where it leads me is to what extent did you receive requests via sea squad
03:00:13 via sea squad for intelligence that had in fact emanated from the security service i would say that probably the
03:00:24 i would say that probably the most direct requests an interchange came at these meetings and probably any more routine requests would come via sea squad sir
03:00:38 sea squad sir is that supposition or known fact uh
03:00:41 uh known fact from time to time supposition on other times
03:00:52 i'd like to step back from the detail and ask you a couple of impressionistic questions about your relationship with the security service how influential were they in targeting
03:01:02 influential to us to the sds how much influence do they have over the way you went about i suppose i would think they would like to have
03:01:13 i would think they would like to have more influence than actually did have um
03:01:14 um it was
03:01:16 it was i wouldn't say it was it wasn't quite a two-way flow of information we probably gave them more than we they gave us um
03:01:33 they would like to have influenced us and if we could accede to their requests without detriment to to ourselves then we would oblige them
03:01:47 then we would oblige them who was actually taking the decisions as to
03:01:52 to which groups would be targeted and what information from within those groups would be focused on you mean right from the beginning on your watch sorry
03:02:02 sorry you me i meant on the beginning of a deployment is that well let's start with the beginning yeah um
03:02:09 um well there was only one who who was deployed during my time because when i went there was someone in the back office and i can't quite remember who it was
03:02:17 was and his deployment was already decided
03:02:24 my thoughts are that
03:02:28 that we would have spoken to certainly sea squad i doubt we we wouldn't have spoke to the security service and sought their opinion on that we'd have spoken to sea squad and asked what their needs were
03:02:41 squad and asked what their needs were we'd have used their own judgement based on public disorder and there might have been an input from maybe commander operations but i'm not sure about that
03:02:54 but i'm not sure about that and then you've told us in terms of once the deployment is ongoing you were doing your best to be accommodating but was was the formal decision making as to whether or not you acceded to those requests
03:03:08 acceded to those requests your decision or did you have to do what you were told no i would say it was our decision at the office level my decision if you like
03:03:19 if you like can we now take that document down um
03:03:21 um and move to the definition of subversion
03:03:34 the definition of subversion you have said in your witness statement that you understood subversion to be undermining the power or authority of an established system or institution where did you get your understanding of subversion from
03:03:49 i suppose what i said then was perhaps a bit loose and my understanding of subversion which i probably should have learned parrot fashion
03:04:02 fashion was probably from my even my early days on c squad although that predates i think the definitions that came out or
03:04:16 definitions that came out or from um an introductory course i did with the security service in
03:04:18 in 1970s
03:04:19 1970s sometime
03:04:23 sometime when we were given the you know the denning definition and the the other definition of which escapes me well we're going to show them now and we appreciate in your witness statement you were
03:04:37 were relying on rather elderly memories so let's have a look at the the documents could we have uh ucpi six zeros four four five nine
03:04:51 now this is a document dated the 15th of june
03:04:52 june 1970 which encloses the april 1970 terms of reference
03:04:59 reference for special branch
03:05:09 are you now familiar with this document yes i think i've i've seen that one sir did you see it in the 1970s
03:05:18 probably not sir because if it was from akpo
03:05:21 akpo which it obviously is um
03:05:27 um it would have probably sort of stopped at the very senior level in sb
03:05:31 sb at least at that stage so i probably wouldn't have seen this letter then
03:05:40 if we can go please to page two and in particular paragraph three subsection d
03:05:48 thank you it says in consultation with the security service to collect process and record information about subversive
03:05:59 record information about subversive or potentially subversive organizations and individuals was it your understanding that the role of special branch extended to assisting the security service
03:06:12 service not just in relation to groups which met the definition of subversion i.e were subversive
03:06:24 subversion i.e were subversive but also extended to groups which were potentially subversive
03:06:32 in my very junior days which i've touched on before i believe all the requests that we had from the security service pertained to the cpgb because that was the dominant feature then
03:06:48 then moving later and more up to the period we're dealing with now um
03:06:55 i i i don't recall any requests for organizations that would be regarded as potentially subversive i suppose depending on how you view the swp of course and similar organizations
03:07:06 organizations and depending on how you define subversion well back to that argument sir
03:07:10 sir page four please
03:07:16 paragraph three
03:07:27 uh it is important that special branches should have a clear idea of what constitutes quote persons and organizations which may be judged to be
03:07:38 organizations which may be judged to be subversive of the security of the state broadly speaking these are any organization or individual whose purpose is the undermining or overthrow
03:07:50 or overthrow of the established democratic order
03:07:56 order now the quote comes from the maxwell 5 definition of subversion
03:08:08 do you recognize that as the definition of subversion that you were familiar with
03:08:09 with in the 90 early 1970s
03:08:26 uh the the 1970s definition is a bit was a bit longer than that um
03:08:28 um but the tone was the same and then the the second sentence that i read out this vernacular interpretation broadly speaking the this is any
03:08:43 broadly speaking the this is any organization or individual whose purpose is the undermining or overthrow of the established democratic order was that your understanding of what a subversive organization or that's a bit more like it say yes
03:08:57 more like it say yes now a feature of that definition is it
03:08:59 is it is focused on purpose so anybody who wants to overthrow the
03:09:09 the established democratic order falls within it does that that accord with how you operated in the 1970s
03:09:22 operated in the 1970s i suppose i'm thinking of the the the newer definition which which includes um uh undermining the safety or well-being we'll we'll come to we'll come to that
03:09:34 we'll we'll come to we'll come to that in a moment but sticking with the 1970 terms of reference based on the maxwell 5 definition which dates from the 1950s
03:09:41 the 1950s um
03:09:47 um you said a moment ago that you thought that's more like it is is that on the ground
03:09:51 ground how you and your officers understood subversion
03:09:55 yes broadly speaking so yes
03:10:01 now the
03:10:06 the what we call a harris definition which we understand was arrived at it within the security service in 1972 and was communicated publicly in
03:10:22 and was communicated publicly in parliament by lord harris in 1974 reads
03:10:24 reads subversive activities are quote those which threaten the safety or well-being of the state
03:10:38 well-being of the state and which are intended to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy by political industrial or violent means
03:10:46 my first question to you is
03:10:54 can you recall whether
03:11:01 whether in 1972 when the security service adopted this definition that was communicated to you
03:11:05 um
03:11:17 i i recall seeing um a printed document i didn't mean printed as opposed to typewritten setting out the terms of reference of special branch and i've got a feeling that definition was in that but i have not seen a copy of it
03:11:29 of it since can you recall what sort of date that would have been
03:11:33 if you can't recall accurately i can't
03:11:43 let's look at a document which which may help you can we have ucpi six zeros four five four five please
03:11:55 now this is a document from may 1974 it's a letter to all chief constables which adds to the 1970 terms of reference about as one can see in block capitals subversive activities in
03:12:06 in industrial disputes do you recall seeing this document
03:12:15 um
03:12:23 again probably not that particular document i'm guessing that how that would have been promulgated would have been a paraphrase coming out as an internal fresh branch instruction so let's look at pages we'll start at
03:12:38 so let's look at pages we'll start at the bottom of page two paragraph four please
03:12:46 sorry paragraph seven
03:12:49 seven in this connection it may be helpful to remind you of the distinction we draw between subversion and militancy in industrial disputes in the following definitions subversion is defined as activities
03:13:05 subversion is defined as activities threatening the safety or well-being of the state and intended to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy by political industrial or violent means the harris definition and then it goes on to say industrial
03:13:17 and then it goes on to say industrial militancy is defined as readiness to use or threaten the use of strikes sit-ins and other forms of aggressive action in the furtherance of industrial disputes
03:13:29 the furtherance of industrial disputes and an unwillingness to seek or accept compromised solutions through negotiations conciliation or arbitration and of course it goes on to distinguish the two
03:13:41 one being within limits and one being off limits
03:13:49 your feeling is that this would have been disseminated not by copying the document but by some other internal yes special branch communication can you
03:14:05 special branch communication can you recall whether or not you were familiar from 1974 onwards with the harris definition
03:14:13 uh i would like to say yes sir but i it's one of these things that you know with this inquiry and previous inquiries having gone on for so long whether it's something i i picked up as
03:14:27 whether it's something i i picked up as a result of preparing myself for this i would like to say yes i did know that but i can't say it hand on heart well the next question that comes is it is different in some significant respects
03:14:38 respects from the definition that we looked at from 1970. can you recall any
03:14:44 any instructions or training introducing this refined definition
03:14:55 introducing this refined definition and telling you about it and telling you what
03:14:59 what changes it should bring about like answer is that because there wasn't any or because there might have been but you can't remember
03:15:10 can't remember probably the latter sir
03:15:14 now an important qualification in the harris definition is it requires not just an intention
03:15:25 not just an intention to overthrow or undermine parliamentary democracy
03:15:28 democracy but there has to be a threat
03:15:39 but there has to be a threat to the safety or well-being of the state was there any change on the ground from 1974 onwards as a result of the additional requirement for a group to have
03:15:51 for a group to have not just the intention to overthrow parliament but also
03:15:54 but also sufficient potency to threaten the safety or well-being of the state
03:16:08 i think as i said earlier the eighties were a febrile time with with
03:16:18 industrial unrest high inflation and and so on lots and lots and lots of street activity and demonstrations so caused
03:16:30 and i would speculate that the the activities of the swp uh did fulfill that and
03:16:36 and fellow travelling organizations did fulfill that definition and certainly in their minds they were subversive within that definition i would say i mean looking back
03:16:49 back they clearly did not fit in with that definition but that's not how it appeared at the time to us or to them i would suggest
03:16:58 not sure answers your question well
03:16:59 well let's take on your watch in 1980
03:17:11 in 1980 are you asking yourself are you actually addressing your mind to does the group
03:17:12 the group my officer is infiltrating not only want to overthrow the state but actually is threatening the state now
03:17:29 no certainly you know the the one particular branch of the swp alone uh could not threaten the state and that would have been obvious even at that time with a special branch annual
03:17:40 that time with a special branch annual report say they the whole group wasn't either
03:17:47 either in fact the special around channel reports describe a lot of um a lot of groups as posing very little threat
03:17:56 i haven't seen those reports so i'm saying that looking backwards that clearly was the case i'm not sure whether we on the ground viewed it like that at the time and certainly the security service didn't because they were
03:18:09 because they were very interested in the work of the swp and similar groups they clearly saw them as subversive they certainly did
03:18:22 the other change is by adding the rider by political industrial or violent means was that more by way of clarification of existing understanding or was that something new
03:18:35 or was that something new if you don't want the addition of the word violence the words no political industrial or violent means was that
03:18:47 industrial or violent means was that was that a clarification that changed the previous understanding in other words
03:18:53 words was a group that was trying to agitate within industry regarded as subversive before the harris definition
03:19:04 definition i would say probably not so um
03:19:07 so um whatever the
03:19:12 trotskyist groups were doing in industry in 1971 1972 are you saying not considered subversive i suppose what i'm saying is that the special branches like only speak from
03:19:29 special branches like only speak from that special branch took its lead from the request from the security service and if they regarded something as subversive we would have taken our lead from them was there any change in how they regarded a group which which groups they regarded as subversive
03:19:42 as subversive fundamentally during your time in the 70s in special branch you'd have to ask them so i don't know the answer yet was it the case let me put this another way was it the case that the sort of
03:19:59 way was it the case that the sort of groups that you and the security service were interested in essentially remained the same throughout the 70s
03:20:06 well i had nothing to do with the sds in the 70s
03:20:07 the 70s so i
03:20:11 so i wasn't even special branch for part of that time which is perhaps why i'm having difficulty answering your question but you were within special branch
03:20:16 branch uh
03:20:22 uh apart from some time out well from 76 to 80 i wasn't in special brand so in your time
03:20:24 time you're right it's only fair you can speak to what you know but was there any change in how the definition was applied or on the ground which groups were of interest between 1968 and 1976
03:20:44 not that i was aware of so because uh i was only on c-squad for a very short time and for uh for example for i think three years during that time i was working at heathrow airport
03:20:55 working at heathrow airport and when you came back to the special branch had anything changed
03:20:59 i don't know sir
03:21:05 are you certainly in that position you're not in a position to gain say the proposition that nothing in fact changed on the ground no i'm not
03:21:18 but as i was out of the field in that sense for
03:21:19 sense for um seven of those years that's an absolutely fair point to make i'll have to pick another victim for that can we now take that document down and have ucpi five zeros 34701
03:21:45 this is a paper
03:21:46 paper home office paper from 1980. if we could go to page two paragraph four at the very bottom
03:21:58 it says
03:22:09 this is proposing an amendment to the terms of to the definition of subversion and the proposed amended definition starts at the very bottom subversive activities are defined as those which
03:22:21 activities are defined as those which threaten the safety or well-being of the state and which are intended to undermine
03:22:22 undermine or
03:22:23 or thank you overthrow parliamentary democracy by political industrial or violent means
03:22:35 violent means harris so far then this includes the activities or organizations or individuals which while operating at present within the law
03:22:48 operating at present within the law have as a long-term aim the overthrow of parliamentary democracy so the rider that it was being proposed should be added would make
03:23:03 would make uh would make beyond doubt the fact that lawful activity was within the definition of subversion and
03:23:10 and all that was required uh in terms of aim was a long-term aim
03:23:22 did that in fact reflect
03:23:25 reflect what
03:23:29 what the sds was doing then anyway
03:23:35 yes i i i'm not sure i've seen this definition before this proposed definition but i would say that that it it did yes
03:23:54 now if we can take that down please you've uh i've been testing your memory back half a century you've got some and i don't mean this pejoratively but some hazy recollections of getting some information training about these subjects
03:24:05 subjects looking back do you think you were sufficiently trained and informed about the definition of subversion
03:24:19 no possibly not i i suppose the the best training we had on that was was with a course provided for junior sb officers by the security service themselves and that was probably the best training we
03:24:33 we could probably have done with with re-emphasizing perhaps i suppose
03:24:35 i suppose my thoughts are that if the security service came to you and said something was subversive you took their word for it
03:24:53 and so far as your men's understanding of subversion is concerned can i take it from what you've said that you didn't provide them with any formal instruction about the definition or anything like that you just followed the security services lead
03:25:07 the security services lead do you think they were kept sufficiently up to date or refreshed as to the definition of subversion
03:25:19 well with hindsight so possibly not but as i said before the the reporting on subversion defined by the security service was a byproduct and the main function was not that and i've come back to that
03:25:30 come back to that in previous times thank you and on that note so would would it be convenient to break for lunch now certainly it would um
03:25:40 um roughly how much longer do you have in this phase of your questioning i think i'm i'm on course to finish within the day sir yes but uh that um
03:25:51 yes but uh that um half and half way through yes we do of course have um other questions that may arise from propositions that are put to you by other teams i think we're okay sir good
03:26:02 good very well um would anybody mind if today because there may be some pressure of time we resumed at two o'clock rather than fight the full five past the full hour
03:26:16 the full five past the full hour i hear no protest then we will resume it too
03:26:19 too [Music]
03:26:59 you