Testimony from an SDS Detective Chief Inspector (1980-81) covering intrusive reporting practices, lack of guidance on sexual relationships with activists, surveillance of justice campaigns including the Blair Peach campaign, and political bias in assessing public disorder. The witness makes multiple admissions with hindsight about inappropriate conduct that was acceptable at the time.
00:21:54 all rise please
00:22:16 mr moss can we go back to school now please uh and have up on the screen ucpi five zeroes three four six nine eight
00:22:27 this is another circular from the security service um
00:22:35 um to achieve constables about subversive activities it's dated the 16th of december
00:22:40 december 1975 and it's about subversive activities in schools if we could go to the second page paragraph two please
00:22:55 it says we do not ask you to make inquiries in schools on our behalf but we would welcome any help you could give us on the basis of information which
00:23:06 us on the basis of information which comes your way from the local papers or from members of the public or by recourse to other sources outside schools which you can use without risk of embarrassment
00:23:17 of embarrassment did you see that document not at the time but i was aware i have been made aware of it uh were you aware at the time of the
00:23:29 uh were you aware at the time of the message that was contained in paragraph two no i wasn't were you aware by the time that you were the dci of the sds of that message
00:23:40 the dci of the sds of that message i think i might have been but wouldn't swear to it um
00:23:43 um there is
00:23:44 there is tension within schools isn't there with both the far left and far right seeking to
00:23:51 to influence
00:23:53 influence views within schools in the late 70s and early 80s yes
00:24:02 yes and the sds reported on that didn't they i believe so we've had reporting from hn126
00:24:08 hn126 in particular about that um
00:24:14 um were you aware of what that was for and who the driver was for that intelligence
00:24:24 i'm not sure i've seen the intelligence you're talking about but i'm guessing that it was the security service and it was in
00:24:32 was in pursuance of that letter or circular should i take it from the uncertainty in your voice that perhaps we'd be best relying on the officer himself yes sir i think so um thank you can we take that down
00:24:52 i asked you before lunch about the procedure with documents when you were on c-squad i'm going to ask you a little bit about the procedures within the sds you've told us in your witness statement that you didn't compile
00:25:03 you didn't compile or assess reports you did read them and sign them off though didn't you sometimes so yes
00:25:15 and then they were they disseminated to c-squad yes sir
00:25:26 to c-squad yes sir and then the process that you described uh was applied to them and they were further disseminated as sea scored so fit
00:25:29 so fit um
00:25:34 um was there any change in that process during the time time that you were working in the sds no
00:25:46 you've confirmed in your witness statement uh what i would describe as do tell me if you uh disagree with the choice of words an unfiltered approach to intelligence gathering where your officers hoovered up information so that it could be
00:26:01 information so that it could be considered and analyzed by others that's fair comment sir you've made a comment on a number of reports in your witness statement and i'm not going to take you to them all
00:26:13 take you to them all but could i take you just to a couple first of all can we go to the document at tab 19 which is ucpi five zeros one five
00:26:25 five zeros one five one four five
00:26:36 and this is a
00:26:45 report dated the 5th of november 1980
00:26:50 1980 and it's about an individual it says at paragraph two privacy has recently joined kilburn branch of the socialist workers party he is employed by the general post office
00:27:02 is employed by the general post office in the international sorting office at location
00:27:05 location due to his shift work he is unable to attend swp meetings but he does a regular socialist work and newspaper sale in finchley road nw3
00:27:17 nw3 each saturday can you keep in mind employment at the gpo then goes on to deal with where he's living
00:27:24 living and a bank account and then it talks in terms of being a supporter of the gay liberation movement and as an avid
00:27:36 and as an avid reader of gay news
00:27:41 news you thought that that intelligence might be of some relevance for vetting purposes in your witness statement yes sir could
00:27:59 in your witness statement yes sir could you explain please what the relevance of this intelligence to vetting might be
00:28:03 be to to vetting as i was describing it none at all so i'm trying to differentiate between the official government vetting system which is aimed at preventing
00:28:17 unsuitable people in terms of their views and attitudes having access to classified government information and blacklisting as it's been described yeah two different things they are two different things yes so in terms of government vetting
00:28:30 so in terms of government vetting purposes that that is of no interest whatsoever it was the fact that this person was working for the post office potentially of vetting relevance in
00:28:44 potentially of vetting relevance in government terms yes no sir i don't believe
00:28:46 believe there may be some posts in the po some posts in the post office pardon me which are
00:28:55 are vetted to government standards but i'm not aware of any i can't see why they would be
00:28:58 would be so is it your evidence now that in fact you don't think this document is of any relevance to vetting no so i don't think it is i think it's just
00:29:11 i think it's just a question of identifying the person as as much as possible so far as bank account details are concerned uh did you regard these as having
00:29:25 having any quality of confidentiality that ought to make you cautious about signing off reports containing them with hindsight probably yes at the time no
00:29:35 no it was a different time sir could we take that report down please and could we go to a document which in fact wasn't in the bundle it's ucpi
00:29:47 it's ucpi 5014174
00:30:01 um thank you this is a report dated the 8th of august
00:30:02 of august 1980
00:30:06 um and it deals with
00:30:14 information about a member of the revolutionary communist tendency can we have a look in particular
00:30:25 particular it starts about that but in particular i want to have a look at what it says about a a particular woman at paragraph six please at the bottom of the page
00:30:38 since that time she has been unattached until recently when she formed a relationship with a bus conductor
00:30:51 relationship with a bus conductor on the privacy bus route called privacy a black belt karate exponent and it is likely that this liaison will blossom although the two characters prefer it
00:31:04 although the two characters prefer it present to maintain their independence however she still lives at privacy privacy privacy and in the last week has intimated that she wishes to fall pregnant again and for this purpose has ceased to take the pill on a regular basis
00:31:23 pill on a regular basis she is however not quite sure at present as to who will sire this latest socialist offspring if we could go down to the next page and look at paragraph nine please
00:31:36 it says whilst not actively engaged on a firm political basis she has she had still retained close links
00:31:42 links on a social basis with her many friends in the tottenham socialist workers party and having a tottenham woman's voice
00:31:54 and having a tottenham woman's voice and it can be stated quite strongly that her current political bias would not include an interest in irish orientated groups
00:32:01 groups let alone the ideals of the revolutionary communist tendency as her
00:32:13 revolutionary communist tendency as her main interest culturally politically and personally is with the black races and persons of similar ethnic origins now if we scroll down to the very bottom please
00:32:30 and we see that you've signed there on behalf of the chief superintendent so is that one of the documents that you would have read yes if i signed it yes certainly
00:32:44 did you consider um content like that first of all to be necessary
00:32:54 yes i i think it's relevant in that i obviously don't know the the subject i don't know anything about her from this distance in time um
00:33:04 um i think the relevance is that it shows her
00:33:08 her probably possibly becoming less active in
00:33:12 in ultra left wing circles looking perhaps to settle down a bit more and certainly if she does become a mother again she would have left time less time for activity so indicating to me
00:33:26 so indicating to me that this particular person was like to be taking
00:33:27 be taking um
00:33:31 um less interest in in activities in the future
00:33:34 future that's what i would see as the relevance did you consider the tone appropriate i i i thought one of the sentences was was a bit odd and i'm not sure i'd in today's
00:33:48 and i'm not sure i'd in today's light i haven't got it in front of me anymore um if we could go back which bit would you like to look at it again i think it was probably uh the bottom of the first page so paragraph six please um
00:34:06 well i didn't like that sentence not quite sure of presence of tools so this latest socialist offspring that was very poorly phrased to say the least and uh
00:34:20 and uh in the present climate i'm not sure i like the way that they uh
00:34:26 uh talked about her her interest being concentrated in certain ethnic minorities and at the time i probably didn't think about it at the time so it was a long time a different time sir
00:34:33 time sir in coming back to the to um the significance of this report as you saw it
00:34:44 you saw it uh in terms of the content couldn't that have been recorded much more succinctly and without the details
00:34:56 i suppose my views on that thinking that of the security services interest is that you
00:34:57 that you you said did the sds hoover up things i think the security service do very much the same and i suppose my view would be if we had that information and it's all
00:35:11 and it's all relevant as far as i can see um
00:35:12 um to her as a person i would pass it on to the security service
00:35:18 looking back now with hindsight
00:35:25 would you accept that this was inappropriate reporting in what way sir well inappropriate both in terms of the level of highly personal detail
00:35:35 detail and secondly the tone
00:35:42 i i think the tone would be unacceptable now
00:35:45 now yes sir and the level of detail more than was necessary
00:36:04 well i suppose for example i'm not quite sure what you're getting at but in paragraph five when she's talking about when the author is talking about uh having formed a relationship with the national treasure of flame
00:36:16 national treasure of flame that could have been sort of left off her report and put on his report i'm thinking of the detail of contraception speculation about who the father of her child my advice might be
00:36:32 child my advice might be as well as the comments about race that you've already well i've commented on that sir yes i understand what you're saying now um
00:36:40 um yes i suppose it could have stopped um
00:36:46 um at the end of intimate that she wishes to fall pregnant again um
00:36:47 um and the rest of that could be could be left out one of the reasons i've chosen to put this document to you
00:37:00 this document to you not only does it occur on your watch but it falls at precisely the time that uh
00:37:03 that uh concerns were being expressed in the home office amongst other things to the effect that more information was being recorded than was necessary and then stored
00:37:18 and then stored so that was a concern that they had at the time
00:37:24 i would you agree that that was a justified concern to have
00:37:31 yes with modern eyes i would agree with that sir
00:37:33 thank you
00:37:39 can we move now can we take that document down can we move to blair peach and can we start please with
00:37:52 and can we start please with whether you can recall in any general discussion whilst you were the head of the sds
00:38:05 whilst you were the head of the sds or in the period between blair peach's death and you're assuming that role about
00:38:10 about whether what the police concerns were arising from that incident uh no sir i mean i was in the cid until quite literally the day before i took over the sds in that january
00:38:25 over the sds in that january so that answers that part of the question
00:38:28 question as far as the second part is concerned i imagined that that the main interest was then in any public disorder arising from those
00:38:39 those tragic circumstances when you say you imagine
00:38:45 imagine in the conversations you were having with
00:38:52 with people at sea squad and your superiors in s squad was anybody feeding down to you any desire for intelligence about the friends of blair peach campaign
00:39:04 campaign not in specific terms no sir in general terms no
00:39:12 was anybody else expressing to you a desire for intelligence about the friends of blair peach campaign
00:39:19 not quite sure where this is going sir but no
00:39:24 but no i'm not sure i'm giving you the answer you're looking for was anybody asking you
00:39:25 you um
00:39:29 um for information in connection with the inquest
00:39:30 inquest or with any other proceedings that were going on at the time arising from the death could we look at doc 076 please
00:39:51 this is a report date of the 19th of june 1979
00:39:56 june 1979 as far as the inquiry is aware this isn't
00:39:57 isn't sds reporting but it says this report concerns those persons known to this branch who have made written statements to police
00:40:11 made written statements to police concerning the death of blair peach during an anti-national front demonstration at southall on the 23rd of april 1979. are you able to assist us in any way as
00:40:24 are you able to assist us in any way as to why such intelligence would have been wanted
00:40:25 wanted by
00:40:26 by special branch no like answer can we take that down and have doc 077 up please
00:40:45 now this is again a document which we don't our understanding is this isn't sds intelligence it's dated the 19th of february 1981. in connection with the investigation into the death of blair peach on the
00:41:02 into the death of blair peach on the 23rd of april 1979 a number of persons met redacted later that evening it is understood that the reason for this meeting was to collectively discuss individual statements which would later be made to police
00:41:18 can you help us as to why special branch would be interested in that intelligence i suppose
00:41:22 i suppose my immediate reaction to that is were they meeting for reasons of collusion
00:41:36 and i don't see that special branch per se would have interest in that unless the people were were known to us but even then um
00:41:48 i can see a reason for police interest in that but not special branch interest in that
00:41:56 in that if we could take that down now please and if we could have up the document which is at tab 10 of the bundle which is mps-072896
00:42:08 now this is the 1979
00:42:16 annual report and it describes seeking
00:42:26 seeking in relation to blair peach seeking to discredit and criticize the police
00:42:30 police i think you were asked to comment on it in your
00:42:38 in your witness statement i'm not sure i got the right document here sir i will take you to the precise paragraph in just a moment
00:42:46 if we can go over to the next page to paragraph three
00:42:54 it says
00:43:02 this is one of the letters this is a letter from assistant commissioner kelland to rj andrew at the home office paragraph three says the focal point of much of the extremist activity in 1979
00:43:17 much of the extremist activity in 1979 was a general election held in may with the extreme left contriving to take advantage of the national fronts election campaign to provoke hostile confrontation whenever possible the culmination of the virulent anti-fascist demonstrations was the death of the
00:43:35 demonstrations was the death of the anti-nazi league supporter blair peach and the subsequent campaign against police
00:43:36 police during this period the special demonstration squad was able to provide useful information which was invaluable enabling uniformed officers to be effectively
00:43:48 effectively deployed
00:43:59 was it a concern of the police in the light of the two reports i've shown you
00:44:05 shown you and the annual report for 1979 that the
00:44:07 that the swp the anl or the friends of blair peach campaign were trying to discredit or criticize the police
00:44:24 i read that is perhaps unfortunately phrased um in the
00:44:26 um in the sentence beginning the culmination of the virulent anti-fascist etc and the subsequent campaign against the police that perhaps shouldn't have been there and it should just finish with the last
00:44:44 and it should just finish with the last sentence which i think comes back to the function of the sds that it was able to provide useful information enabling uniform offers to be effectively deployed i i would personally have no problem at all with with criticism of the police
00:44:57 the police for anything that we do it's we live in a democratic society well is the problem that that phrase was there
00:45:03 there in the document and do you think looking back there might have been a rather defensive mindset
00:45:14 mindset yes quite possibly i was giving you my personal view then but corporately yes quite possibly
00:45:24 could we take that down please now and have
00:45:26 have tab 15
00:45:28 tab 15 ucpi 5014149
00:45:42 now this is a this is an sds report it's dated the 28th of july 1980
00:45:47 1980 and it is about the friends of blair peach committee attempting to form a national coordinating body with other
00:46:01 with other groups who are concerned as the report puts it with state brutality by the police and prison authorities
00:46:14 can you help as to why this intelligence was reported by the sds was it
00:46:15 was it just part of the hoovering up approach or was it because there was a particular interest at that time in the friends of blair peach committee
00:46:32 i'm again speculating but i assume and i believe there were demonstrations outside police stations and other places in support of of all these people uh quite justifiably of course
00:46:47 but it gave
00:46:48 it gave our uniform colleagues uh advice it would give our uniform colleagues advanced notice of those demonstrations to allow them to be not to stop them but to enable them to please them properly
00:47:03 properly and there were indeed demonstrations and there is another report in the pack about one of those but i don't think we need to go to it now could we take that down please can you recall whether you got any feedback
00:47:17 feedback from any source whether the security service
00:47:22 service sea squad uniform police anybody within police circles about sds reporting in connection with the death of blair peach and the subsequent justice campaign
00:47:31 campaign i don't remember get any feedback no
00:47:38 one of the officers who gave evidence anonymously at a closed hearing says that he was at the south all
00:47:50 demonstration and that he gave a witness statement to police about it
00:48:00 can you recall that when was the demonstration sir it was um george's day 1979. that's before my time
00:48:16 we don't know exactly when the statement was taken uh whether it was immediately afterwards or not do you know anything about
00:48:20 about any sds undercover officer giving a witness statement to
00:48:23 to police in connection with that demonstration i don't know sir
00:48:36 were you aware that blair peach was a member of the socialist workers party not at the time but from subsequent reporting yes your
00:48:44 your witness statement talks about the swp piggybacking onto blair peach's death wouldn't it be fairer to recognize that blair peach was one of their own it probably would say yes
00:49:02 would you accept that this was a justice campaign which ultimately did secure some justice i would
00:49:11 can i zoom out from the blair peach campaign to justice campaigns more generally did you ever get as far as you can recall particular requests from anybody to obtain intelligence about a justice campaign
00:49:33 and was there any reason over and above the unfiltered hoovering up approach why justice campaigns were reported on um
00:49:37 um in connection with the potential for public disorder of a minor or large scale that takes us to public disorder
00:49:52 public disorder can we start at tab 22 with the annual report for 1980
00:49:59 that mps-0728962
00:50:14 and in that report could we go to page 8 please
00:50:22 paragraph 17.
00:50:30 17. paragraph 17 reads anti-fascist activity continued to tax the resources of the metropolitan police and in february march april and june there were right-wing marches which
00:50:42 there were right-wing marches which attracted counter-demonstrations from many sections of the revolutionary left
00:50:50 it's right isn't it that tension between the far left and the far right
00:50:52 right was a major theme of the time when you were head of the sds absolutely for both years
00:51:05 we've heard evidence that anti-fascist groups had a policy of confronting the fascists on the street
00:51:18 was it your view that one side or the other was causing the trouble yes it was and what was your view well
00:51:27 well aboriginals it may appear i wonder whether
00:51:35 had the nf been allowed to march and not been confronted
00:51:40 by the left would there have been any disorder
00:51:46 disorder sorry i didn't abort as their views may appear is what i meant to say um
00:51:54 um because it was the left that caused the disorder in those circumstances and
00:52:00 and it was always a matter for debate within the police service how far the police could should go to facilitate free speech in other words we've i remember seeing uh press cuttings of forces elsewhere in the country we had an absolute phalanx of police protecting
00:52:11 an absolute phalanx of police protecting ten national front people with the union flag marking marching down the middle of the street and a question for debate was and there were arguments on both sides and people supporting both sides
00:52:25 supporting both sides whether that was the correct use of of police manpower so what i'm saying in rather a lengthy way is if the national front had just been allowed to demonstrate and the left wing hadn't
00:52:36 demonstrate and the left wing hadn't turned up that probably wouldn't have been any disorder
00:52:39 in my opinion
00:52:47 can we pick up on some evidence given yesterday what would have happened if the left and right had been allowed to appear without a police presence that would have been mayhem
00:53:01 can i move now specifically to the return
00:53:02 return sorry the right to work march of 1980. if we can take down the present document
00:53:13 if we can take down the present document and have up ucpi five zeros one four two six four
00:53:23 just want to have a look at some of the pre-emptive this is dated the night 15th of september 1980 in the march hits the conservative conference in october so this is preemptive intelligence
00:53:36 preemptive intelligence if we if we could go please to page two and paragraph nine
00:53:52 says with regard to the march itself if it is intended that approximately 100 it is intended that approximately 100 unemployed youngsters will make the journey from port tolbert via london to brighton although it is anticipated that
00:54:05 brighton although it is anticipated that on the last three days of the march when it leaves croydon these numbers could grow to something in excess of 400. this part of the project is not seen as a great threat to public
00:54:16 is not seen as a great threat to public order other than problems resulting from youthful exuberance of the marchers drunkenness and minor breaches of the peace
00:54:27 peace at places where the march stops for the night at each location where the march arrives civic receptions have been arranged where the local council is deemed to be friendly meetings will be held with guest
00:54:42 meetings will be held with guest speakers and entertainment in the form of live music will be offered where available and it speaks about a timetable of activities paragraph 10 with regard to the pickets outside the conservative party conference on friday the 10th of october the situation relating to possible
00:54:56 the situation relating to possible public disorder is completely different the socialist workers party has throughout the past five months been building steadily towards totally disrupting the final day of the
00:55:07 disrupting the final day of the conference by whatever means they consider necessary if we could take that down please
00:55:23 if we could take that down please what i'd like to explore with you is how well publicized was the right to work march before it took place i have no idea was it entirely predictable that there would be trouble at the conservative party conference
00:55:39 not necessarily it comes back to what i was saying about knowing individuals knowing what their proclivities were towards violence or peaceful
00:55:50 towards violence or peaceful demonstration and assessing it from there so
00:55:52 there so um
00:55:54 um possible
00:55:58 possible um not entirely predictable it was
00:55:59 it was 1918 the first in the first as i said the very early days the two the two years of the 1980-81 the difficult years so putting in
00:56:10 difficult years so putting in in context there i suppose um it was probable if not entirely predictable
00:56:25 the march is described in an exposed factor report that we can find at ucpi five zeros one four six one zero
00:56:38 and if we go to page 5 and paragraph 24 please
00:56:51 it soon became apparent to the marchers that the event was receiving an unexpected amount of coverage by both the local and national media which made the organizers instill rigid discipline amongst the marchers
00:57:04 amongst the marchers this tended to dampen the spirits of the more unruly elements and resulted in little public order during the first two weeks
00:57:10 weeks indeed the council decided to ban five individuals from continuing on the march due to the disregard of instructions on matters of discipline
00:57:24 matters of discipline 25 in addition the march was accompanied for most of the way by a world inaction reporting crew which caused the march stewards to enforce council policy on discipline even more strictly and if we could go to power 26 please
00:57:38 could go to power 26 please the organizers were of the opinion that the huge wave of support that the campaign was riding on would disintegrate if the media reported any incidents of violence or rowdyism and there can be little doubt that during the initial stages of the march these
00:57:55 the initial stages of the march these feelings were of paramount importance in curtailing any serious public order and then if we could go to page six paragraph 30
00:58:07 on entering london southall the mood of the march altered becoming far more militant this can be accounted for by the fact that the marchers were faced with larger numbers of police than they had previously experienced
00:58:20 than they had previously experienced plus the moral support of freshly turned out members of the swp this sudden turn of events led to the arrest of seven marchers following a fracker with a member of the public
00:58:34 fracker with a member of the public and then if we could go to paragraph 35 and 36 on the next page
00:58:43 it is estimated that about 8 000 demonstrators were present outside the conference center and there can be little doubt that had it not been for the presence of large numbers of police on duty outside serious public disorder would have ensued relating
00:58:57 ensued relating relating in damage to property and physical assaults on conference delegates the march organizers having witnessed the strength of the police were visibly crestfallen and had no
00:59:09 were visibly crestfallen and had no other option but to advise those intent on charging the police lines and undertaking other forms of direct confrontation with both police and delegates to curb their actions apart
00:59:29 delegates to curb their actions apart from isolated minor scuffles and verbal abuse this proved to be the case and only 16 arrests were made so
00:59:29 so the picture is of a march which passed off essentially uneventfully until it got to london
00:59:42 uneventfully until it got to london a fracker in southall with seven arrests huge demonstration in brighton with a large police presence some arrests but the police view was it could have been much much worse
00:59:56 been much much worse what i'd like to explore with you is to what extent do you think sds intelligence contributed to that outcome
01:00:13 it seems fairly plain sir with respect um
01:00:14 um the sds predicted that the
01:00:20 that the march from from wales uh would
01:00:21 uh would uh
01:00:28 attract a little disorder leaving aside possible rowdyism and drunkenness from from the marchers which proved to be the case it appears six or so were five were thrown off the march
01:00:41 march it then said that this is the sds report that
01:00:44 that fresh faces would join the march when it got to london which actually did happen the disorder at slough i think was it south of the south south all
01:00:57 south of the south south all um involved fracker with a member of the public
01:00:58 public not with the police
01:01:05 police and then the report correctly said that there would be um disorder in brighton which there would have been without enormous number of police what i'm driving at is
01:01:20 if the sds intelligence hadn't been available wouldn't it have been predictable anyway that the march would probably pass off peacefully and the the trouble would be at brighton
01:01:35 yes but if you've got an organization like the sds why would you employ guesswork
01:01:41 guesswork thinking of the expenses of of police deployments you've got the sds why wouldn't you use them i think i'm driving at did you really need the sds
01:01:53 you had the sds already i mean
01:01:54 i mean i don't think that question is answerable looking at the length of the entire history of the sds i'm asking because as you know one of your officers
01:02:06 because as you know one of your officers was on that march infiltrated that march and
01:02:09 and was it necessary to have an sds officer on that march he may have had to go on the march to maintain his cover was it necessary for public order policing purposes
01:02:24 um well i still say yes sir i mean i take your point that you perhaps could have guessed what might happen but isn't it more useful it is more useful to have
01:02:37 useful to have something fairly concrete to tell you what's likely to happen
01:02:45 can we take that down please and move on to a different topic in a different document it's ucpr [Music]
01:02:59 now this is a report about
01:03:03 about a meeting which took place on the 14th of august 1980. paragraph 2 reads on thursday the 14th of august 1980 at mornington hall the green chingford e4 the waltham forest
01:03:14 green chingford e4 the waltham forest district of the socialist workers party held a meeting to voice their opposition to the national front and in particular its growth within the chingford area
01:03:29 its growth within the chingford area then it goes on to describe a leafleting effort
01:03:34 and it just if we move to paragraph four
01:03:41 privacy whilst some forest district organizer had called for and almost achieved a full turnout of members on saturday the 9th of august at station road chingford for a mass leafleting in order to publicize this meeting in
01:03:53 order to publicize this meeting in addition the exercise was organized with a view to confronting the national front in a show of strength
01:04:04 in a show of strength on its doorstep and at paragraph five due to the non-attendance of local inhabitants the meeting was confined to planning a future campaign aimed at stamping out the national front in
01:04:17 stamping out the national front in chingford this will take the form of increased confrontation with nf supporters in the area leafleting and a promotion of anti-nazi racist propaganda within the breeding
01:04:28 racist propaganda within the breeding grounds of national front recruitment namely
01:04:30 namely local
01:04:31 local schools
01:04:35 schools first question as far as you're aware would this have been a specific commission or just part and parcel of the hoovering up approach um part and parcel i'm not sure i call
01:04:47 um part and parcel i'm not sure i call that hoovering up sir because it's it's quite specific um public order um uh material but but it would not have been tasked i guess it would have been
01:04:59 been tasked i guess it would have been picked up and what was the public order policing value in a meeting of people who want to take action against local fascists
01:05:10 fascists because it tells you how they're likely to take this forward do you think that the use of the term propaganda for material which is
01:05:23 for material which is anti-nazi and anti-fascist in nature was an appropriate term um
01:05:39 no perhaps not again by by modern eyes i i must i wouldn't have thought twice of it then um
01:05:47 um but now it's probably inappropriate okay can we take that down please um can we move on to the subject of relationships you
01:05:57 you explained in your witness statement that you did
01:06:01 you did block the recruitment to the sds when you were a superintendent in 1981 of an officer because he had been unfaithful to his partner
01:06:13 to his partner in the office yes sir
01:06:18 yes sir and your concern was that if he would do that in the office he might do that when he was deployed under cover i hadn't thought through in as much detail as that but i i just felt the that behavior
01:06:31 that behavior didn't indicate that he was suitable for the sds at that time well if you had addressed your mind to it it must have been obvious that he might do the same thing undercover yes sir and that would have been a concern of yours would it yes it would
01:06:46 of yours would it yes it would and was that or wasn't it one of the reasons you stopped that person becoming an sds officer yes
01:06:55 um if we may
01:06:58 if we may look at some more general factors as well
01:06:59 well your officers were either all or mostly married weren't they yes sir was one of the reasons that married officers were recruited to reduce the risk
01:07:10 recruited to reduce the risk of them involved involving themselves sexually that was one of the reasons not the only one although they were in fact
01:07:21 although they were in fact married they were pretending to be single weren't they
01:07:31 wasn't there a risk arising from the fact they were pretending to be single of sexual
01:07:32 of sexual activity occurring
01:07:37 obviously there was a risk as we know with hindsight sir but i suppose we didn't see it like that at the time did you address your mind to that at all at the time
01:07:51 no i just thought that to do something like that would be so silly that they wouldn't contemplate doing it
01:08:02 it was a very stressful job to go undercover wasn't it i imagine so on the whole the people that they were infiltrating were no friends of the police correct and whatever might actually have happened if they'd been
01:08:15 happened if they'd been uncovered presumably you were aware your officers would fear the worst should they be uncovered as as police officers that was one of the things that did exercise my mind keep you awake at night not quite that far sir but uh
01:08:31 wouldn't it be a natural reaction of an undercover officer pretending to be a single man to think if i form a relationship
01:08:43 if i form a relationship that might enhance my cover and keep me safer
01:08:49 i would have thought the more natural reaction would be to if i start a relationship it's going to potentially cause me more trouble to be quite honest
01:09:02 do you think that
01:09:05 that there was a risk that an officer might have thought that if they form a relationship it might enhance their access to information if it was the right relationship
01:09:22 no i i don't think that i think if anything your your former comment uh is the more likely uh which is that uh it would enhance their cover
01:09:33 is that uh it would enhance their cover but i i don't really go along with that either
01:09:42 did you consider either of those risks when you were the head of the sds
01:09:54 um no i didn't because i come back to my answer of a couple of minutes ago i thought it was such a stupid thing to do that that they wouldn't contemplate doing it and i think you're clear in your witness statement that you gave your officers no advice at all on this side
01:10:17 can we consider first the officer we know as hn 21 there should be a key now he's an anonymous officer so it's very important we don't use his name
01:10:29 important we don't use his name i know who are you talking about you were meeting your officers at least twice a week weren't you yes and you were very concerned about their welfare yes sir and their cover
01:10:48 their welfare yes sir and their cover yes sir and no doubt their work as well yes sir and you were talking to them about all of those things yes everything anything they wanted to talk about and that we wanted to talk about and did you talk to them at the level of detail about the personalities within their groups
01:11:00 their groups no it would the conversations with them were more pertaining to their welfare because any information about personalized within their groups would come through on paper
01:11:12 their groups would come through on paper if appropriate but surely they'd talk to you about at least the more prominent or remarkable figures in their groups um not really so no it was it was
01:11:26 um not really so no it was it was probably when we did used to meet them it was more a chance for them to to talk to someone who was both perhaps i wouldn't say a friend that's probably going too far but a colleague and a supervisor
01:11:43 and a supervisor in their real identity and to sort of relax for a bit be that at the safe house
01:11:46 house in a group environment or be that in a pub on a one-to-one basis did hn 21 tell you that he'd had sex with a woman no sir
01:12:04 did he say anything to you that might have suggested he was becoming close to a woman no sir
01:12:12 we now know that he did have sex twice with a woman
01:12:23 do you think looking back that if you had spoken to him more you might
01:12:25 you might have
01:12:35 conveyed to him what you felt in your own mind namely it would be very stupid to do something like that
01:12:37 like that um no so i mean i suppose
01:12:42 i suppose to put it how i saw it i i'd read the statements of of this individual and i picked up on exactly what you just told me but i could not from my own mind identify him until i saw it
01:13:02 identify him until i saw it in in the reference book here so i had absolutely no idea in fact even until today
01:13:03 today that that individual i knew hn 21 was but i didn't realize that individual was if that makes it clear
01:13:12 clear in fact i'm quite surprised
01:13:20 do you think with the benefit of hindsight that some proactive discussion about the risks and about the wrongness
01:13:32 and about the wrongness of sexual activity with people undercover might have reduced the chances of officers behaving in the way they did clearly with hindsight yes
01:13:48 can i ask you now about the officer we know as hn 106.
01:14:03 did you get any inkling from
01:14:04 from him
01:14:08 him that he was gaining a reputation within his group
01:14:09 his group as somebody with a girlfriend no sir
01:14:21 did you get any inkling that he was uh getting close to
01:14:22 to any female he was mixing with as an undercover officer no sir the same questions that i asked you
01:14:33 the same questions that i asked you about conversations about this sort of thing and whether in hindsight more might have reduced the risk of an officer succumbing to temptation would that apply to every officer yes yes command
01:14:47 can i move to hn 126.
01:15:04 did you get any inkling in any of your conversations with him that he was getting close to a female
01:15:15 no not in his group i mean his his marriage was on the rocks uh and we'll come back to that later okay but no not not in terms of in his group no
01:15:26 group no and
01:15:27 and any inkling that he did he say anything to the effect of it had any sexual activity
01:15:34 hn155
01:15:48 first of all starting with his character how would you describe him
01:15:53 um
01:16:00 a larger than life character um
01:16:06 quite outgoing
01:16:15 um perhaps a bit more difficult to manage than some of the others if it surprises you to learn that hn21 did
01:16:21 did have
01:16:22 have sex with an activist does it surprise you that
01:16:31 that hn155's risk assessors have told us that he can't that one that he 155 confessed to such activity perhaps less so
01:16:45 did he say anything to you about either actual or imminent sexual activity no sir
01:16:58 you've already told me that you won't have discussed in any detail the risks with him but is he the sort of character why where it might
01:17:10 sort of character why where it might have been particularly helpful to put a shot across his bowels with hindsight yes
01:17:15 hn297
01:17:28 we have some evidence from 1976
01:17:34 that he told his
01:17:34 his fellow undercover officers that one of the reasons for his
01:17:45 that one of the reasons for his compromise is that he got involved sexually with two women did you ever hear any anything about that any whiff of that
01:17:51 that anything at all about 297 yeah no i i did know him from a different environment shall we say
01:18:02 a different environment shall we say within special branch but but no i had no knowledge of him in the in the sds or nor did i hear any rumors about it hn 300
01:18:11 hn 300 back to where we started this morning
01:18:25 the evidence we've received is that not only did he meet an activist but he married her
01:18:34 did you hear anything about that no again i i it was outside of my time but i i
01:18:40 but i i i did know him from elsewhere in in special branch and
01:18:43 and sorry carry on well i wouldn't say that i didn't know about the marriage but perhaps the the relationship doesn't surprise me put it that way
01:18:58 i didn't actually realize he was there from the sds i have to say
01:19:08 you've already explained that you might have had more concerns about hn155 than hn 21 were there any other officers that you supervised
01:19:20 that you supervised who you might have thought were more at risk of misconduct of this nature
01:19:33 no i actually um thought as a general statement they were all pretty steady and and reliable were any of them regarded as womanizers no
01:19:46 if any of the officers who we
01:19:47 we know
01:19:55 know had sexual contact or if it's true those against whom it is alleged had
01:19:56 had told you
01:20:01 told you how much importance would you have attached to that at the time quite a lot it would have involved
01:20:13 quite a serious conversation i have to say
01:20:15 say i
01:20:19 would like to say i would have done this that and the other but the the short answer said i don't quite know how i would have dealt with it it would certainly have led to a
01:20:30 it would certainly have led to a reconsideration of their position in the sds not making any moral judgments whether they were married or not just that it was stupid behavior
01:20:42 and i would have had to make a judgment and probably referred it up the management chain as well as to whether that person should consider continue on the sds or not the evidence that we've had thus far
01:20:55 the evidence that we've had thus far indicates that hn 300 went at least as far as admitting he was falling in love with
01:21:03 with an activist and
01:21:06 and he was
01:21:07 he was removed from the sds
01:21:14 another officer has told us he thought if he'd admitted to what he'd done he would have been given words of guidance
01:21:26 given words of guidance as someone who himself managed the sds what is your reaction to what was done in h h n 300's case and what the officer in the other case thought would have happened
01:21:38 happened had he confessed sorry i was looking at the fold with him yeah could you repeat the question i do apologize hn 300
01:21:50 apologize hn 300 removed from the sds i did a double take so i thought it was someone else i do apologize when he uh
01:21:55 uh admitted he was falling in love with somebody
01:21:57 somebody what's your view of that as a measure removing from the sds yeah yeah i would thought that was inevitable i don't like speaking of the dead i'm not sure i would have had hn 300 on the sds
01:22:14 sure i would have had hn 300 on the sds had i been selecting people at that time a
01:22:15 a fear
01:22:19 fear that a confession might lead to words of guidance
01:22:23 guidance how realistic do you think that was as to the reaction that sds management would have to a confession of sexual activity with a member of the public in their undercover identity i would thought
01:22:36 undercover identity i would thought words of guidance would be the minimum um
01:22:41 um in truth this is serious misconduct isn't it yes was did you ever get the sense that the operational security of the sds was such
01:22:53 of the sds was such that it would inhibit disciplinary action being taken in such circumstances
01:23:08 not in my time i when you say disciplinary action i don't think it would necessarily have led to
01:23:17 led to a formal police disciplinary conduct in terms of appearing before a disciplinary board it was certainly i would think have led to a redeployment of the individual
01:23:28 of the individual and maybe a re-examination of his position in special branch not sure about that all sb officers were vetted the government vetting system
01:23:41 the government vetting system and of course something like that could you put could put your vetting clearance in
01:23:48 in jeopardy and if you're not vetted you don't stay in special branch
01:23:54 next question i want a yes no answer to please
01:23:56 please did you give any thought to the provision of cover girlfriends
01:24:06 no
01:24:14 did you give any other
01:24:16 any other advice as to how to avoid sexual contact for example imaginary girlfriends or being mr grumpy
01:24:29 would have been quite a good idea but no i didn't sir
01:24:45 so would that be a good moment to have our afternoon break certainly um 10 minutes or 15. i think we can afford 15 seconds okay 15 minutes we'll resume um shortly before 20 past
01:43:54 all right please
01:44:09 mr moss um just two more things about relationships first i'd like to clear something up you use the word stupid about the conduct of officers who did get involved in sexual activity with
01:44:21 get involved in sexual activity with people in their undercover identities i'm not understanding you to be saying
01:44:35 i'm not understanding you to be saying by using that word that you're putting all of the blame on the officers are you
01:44:37 are you no sir i'm not quite sure where you're going with this but where i'm going is as we discussed
01:44:49 as we discussed they are sent in without any guidance and they're sent into an environment as young young men pretending to be single
01:44:50 single in environments which can be sexually pretty active
01:44:58 so you wouldn't wish to leave here giving the impression that you're putting all of the blame on them no sir thank you
01:45:04 thank you and the second thing is whilst you were having your meetings at the safe flats
01:45:15 meetings at the safe flats and in any socialising afterwards did you ever hear any banter
01:45:22 banter of the kind which might have suggested
01:45:26 suggested that there was sexual activity going on no sir
01:45:36 uh one of the officers who gave evidence in phase two said that there was such banter he was an officer i think finished just before you in fairness to you but uh are you sure that there wasn't
01:45:51 wasn't any banter about that sort of thing or any gossip or even any mention of it yes i am
01:45:57 can i move now to assumptions of positions
01:46:01 positions of responsibility you've explained in your witness statement that no prior permission was required by an undercover officer
01:46:09 officer on your watch to take a position of responsibility you thought it had advantages you thought that it did require fine judgment though and you thought that something like a
01:46:25 and you thought that something like a treasurer or membership secretary would be the best am i fairly summarized corrector
01:46:31 corrector did you give your officers any guidance in this matter
01:46:42 as i recall a couple of conversations where informally usually at the safe house meetings uh
01:46:47 uh i was told that someone was up for have been invited to take up a certain job and i'd have said that's a good thing go for it all that's a bit too much but apart from that no and this is the sort of conversation
01:46:59 and this is the sort of conversation that would have arisen in the safe house yes yes
01:47:08 did you ever explore with them whether they were influencing the course of the groups they were infiltrating
01:47:18 well if i was given advanced warning of it as i've just described yes then i would have
01:47:21 have asked what the permission what the position involved and made it clear that it should be if you like sufficiently senior to be useful to us but not sufficiently senior to be directing operations so to speak and
01:47:37 directing operations so to speak and once one of your officers had assumed a position
01:47:39 position did you talk to them about what they were doing in that position
01:47:45 they yes but often the it would come from them again at the safe house meetings where you just informally talk said oh i've done this so i'm going to do that i
01:47:56 done this so i'm going to do that i might be to get that for us that sort of conversation
01:48:07 your view that it required fine judgment how did you ensure that fine judgments were exercised
01:48:18 by conversations with them [Music]
01:48:20 [Music] either as i just described on the occasions when they said that they may be up for this job or once i knew they're in that job
01:48:33 or once i knew they're in that job talking about what they were doing how far they should let it go and
01:48:34 and that's how far they should let it go
01:48:43 can i ask you about a specific example hn155
01:48:58 he gets into the socialist workers party's headquarters and he reports a lot of organizational data from the headquarters office membership
01:49:11 from the headquarters office membership lists that sort of thing and we touched upon
01:49:12 upon that earlier did you consider that was a good thing
01:49:25 i'm sure the security service would have considered a good thing um i thought
01:49:29 i thought as long as he was fulfilling our function then i was quite happy for him to be forming that function as well
01:49:40 as long i mean he was able to take part in things organized by the swp but i didn't want him organizing things that would have been my he had
01:49:55 he had vaguely his way into the headquarters by deception hadn't he yes and he was taking property
01:49:58 property from
01:50:02 from the building wasn't he um
01:50:03 um certainly taking confidential information he was taking confidential information yes did it cross your mind that that might
01:50:19 amount to a criminal offence he wasn't actually taking anything material as i recall it was copying stuff down and
01:50:28 and if you're thinking of data protection breaches i'm not sure the data protection rules were in place then
01:50:34 then so you had no concerns no
01:50:48 the data protection act was clearly not enforced then and i think it may be to mischaracterize taking confidential information for a purpose for which it was not intended and without the permission of the owner is not a crime but a civil wrong
01:51:02 i would accept that so but i didn't think about it when i was presented with it thank you
01:51:14 can i move now to welfare and you've explained that with something high on your agenda
01:51:24 you tell us that you visited hn 19's wife at the recruitment stage oh yes
01:51:27 oh yes and
01:51:30 and could you explain in your own words the purpose of that
01:51:43 to ensure that she was aware of what her husband was letting himself in for what that would mean for her in terms of domestic bliss and times away from home
01:51:59 and that she didn't have any i suppose moral problems with it although of course i couldn't really explain to her really what it involved so that was uh
01:52:00 uh not so much it was a concern but not something i could really discuss with there was is really a welfare what moral problems did you think there might be well if for example the very thing you've just raised um
01:52:13 you've just raised um was if her husband was going to be doing things
01:52:14 things like that spying on people um that she might have a big problem with that
01:52:26 that but i wasn't really able to discuss that because it would have breached the confidentiality she knew he's working undercover and infiltrating groups i suppose she could have worked it out for herself it was more welfare sir would it be fair to say that the sds
01:52:42 would it be fair to say that the sds asked a lot of the wives of the officers it would
01:52:45 it would more than i realized at the time and you regarded their marriage status as an anchor that would secure them yes and not not i touched on this in
01:52:57 yes and not not i touched on this in answer your previous question not not so much in in as part of it in a sexual way but so they had someone they could trust they could let steam off to in a wider sense
01:53:08 could let steam off to in a wider sense as well the wider sense of the word yes there were christmas launchers in 1980 and 81
01:53:16 and 81 yes sir and how well attended were they um 100 as i recall and senior officers present
01:53:17 present i think
01:53:18 i think the first one is something that um that later down the line seems to have fallen into disuse but i thought it was a good thing um
01:53:33 a good thing um and i think as i recall that the first one i went to uh all the the the ucos were there together with their wives um and the back office staff with their wives myself and my wife
01:53:45 their wives myself and my wife i'm not sure anyone more senior was there but the one after that then the dac came to it with his wife
01:53:58 with his wife and all the ucos and their wives you say in addition that you occasionally had a drink with wives and their husbands to provide reassurance that their husbands were doing an
01:54:09 that their husbands were doing an important job uh if requested never at our request because that would have probably been a bit intrusive but once or twice a uco would for example ask to meet us for a drink and chat and bring his wife along
01:54:22 his wife along is that once or twice in the 11 months or twice it was it was quite rare
01:54:28 now there was an incident wasn't there when hn
01:54:30 when hn 126 was going through his divorce
01:54:42 yes sir could we look at tab 14 mps-0726912
01:54:55 um
01:55:12 yeah 072 it's
01:55:17 nine one mps-0726-912
01:55:39 thank you very much could we go to paragraph three please so page three
01:55:45 um this is
01:55:46 this is the minute sheet for the document concerned which deals with
01:55:53 with um the incident that you had to deal with reads we have already discussed this matter as stated in dci moss's report it seems probable that hn126 wife wrote
01:56:04 it seems probable that hn126 wife wrote the letter and it is be to be hoped that our visit will have acted as a deterrent to any repetition
01:56:15 to any repetition of the act in the circumstances i feel that nothing further should be done unless another communication is received this is evidence that your bosses
01:56:27 this is evidence that your bosses essentially accepted the advice that you gave them about how to deal with the incident yes and the incident had been the receipt of a of an anonymous letter hadn't it yes sir if we go to page nine
01:56:50 uh that is the letter dear sir david is that the metropolitan police commissioner at the time could you please look into why your supposed undercover special branch officers
01:57:00 officers undertake past time openly have affairs with members of the opposite sex who are also in the force and in some instances actually live in police accommodation together nice bit of
01:57:11 accommodation together nice bit of undercover work no wonder the police are coming in for criticism sorry that this is anonymous but i can assure you that the facts are correct so what about some action before the likes of the national front
01:57:24 of the national front who you are supposedly infiltrating for one
01:57:25 one or the press find out yours in hope of justice an ex-friend of a hairy
01:57:38 ex-friend of a hairy and it was your conclusion that this came from hn126's wife yes now
01:57:46 at the time it says police are coming in for increasing criticism do you know what that is a reference to i don't actually so no the second paragraph um did you take that as a threat uh yes i did
01:57:57 uh yes i did that she
01:58:00 that she whoever the author was might go to the national front or the press yes sir
01:58:09 and if we go to page six of this file please
01:58:17 and this is your report isn't it if we go to paragraph nine please
01:58:28 thank you it says such evidence as there is therefore points to hn126's wife as the writer of the letter she has committed no offence in sending it and there seems little point in pursuing the matter part
01:58:43 little point in pursuing the matter part of the object of the visit to her was to let her see that the letter had arrived at its destination and that some action was being taken about it it is hoped
01:58:54 was being taken about it it is hoped that this object has been achieved and she will have been persuaded not to write any more letters to the commissioner or perhaps more important to any
01:59:02 to any more public source which might cause a commissioner serious embarrassment what was the embarrassment that you were referring to well the existence of the sds and why would that have been embarrassing
01:59:15 embarrassing because from the beginning um we had been instructed by home office that the sds was to be a top secret organization
01:59:27 organization and
01:59:31 and i can't say we're acting on the fringes of the law because there was no law governing what we were doing which was a problem
01:59:37 a problem um
01:59:39 um but
01:59:47 i have no doubt whatsoever and and this inquiry is is evidence of that um
01:59:50 um that there would have been a public outcry uh
01:59:52 outcry uh maybe not but i think that probably would have been a public outcry had the existence of the sds become known at that stage and why would there have been an outcry well there was when peter francis went
02:00:09 well there was when peter francis went to the guardian i suppose and what i'm saying is that could have preempted what happened then
02:00:15 now there there may be a
02:00:22 tension between the way you dealt with the applicant for the sds who had had an affair at work
02:00:29 at work who you
02:00:34 who you did not let join the sds and
02:00:35 and hn126 who it appears had also had an affair at work he remained with the sds didn't he after this episode
02:00:48 this episode yes sir
02:00:51 yes sir can you explain the difference in treatment
02:00:55 treatment i haven't referred to it in the report so i can't correctly remember the circumstances i i've got a feeling that the
02:01:05 that the the marriage had irretrievably broken down
02:01:06 down so there was no question of of what legally was infidelity but if you like
02:01:15 like mentally there wasn't um
02:01:18 um he was living in police marriage quarters with the third party who was a another police officer i think
02:01:30 um so it was all above board she knew about obviously she knew about it
02:01:36 it he was
02:01:40 he was doing a good job in the field that he was in
02:01:46 was in and i see little point in taking him out in those circumstances
02:01:54 and i assume that the fact he was living in married courses with her meant that the organization knew about the relationship that's what i'm not sure about from from my report
02:02:01 my report the organization knew about the relationship uh in one tier six's case it does say the commissioner had been fully appraised of events
02:02:10 events i mean before before this letter came that he'd been given permission to live in mario quarters with i see third party so it
02:02:20 so it didn't seem as bad as it wasn't deceitful at all in that his wife knew about it and and that was the difference
02:02:32 did you think there was any risk that 126
02:02:34 126 might him himself get involved in sexual activity with activists
02:02:45 with activists well no i didn't because um he'd
02:02:48 he'd already got involved in sexual activity with a
02:02:49 with a with a colleague so i thought that probably a fresh relationship would i
02:02:56 i would keep them on the straight now i didn't actually give it much thought in truth
02:03:01 truth hn155
02:03:12 now you say that you visited his wife because of concerns that he 155 wasn't treating her well what was
02:03:16 what was the sds's concern about this
02:03:26 i'm sure that a future witness will be able to correct me on this but but i've got a feeling that um
02:03:34 she and trevor butler and his wife were friends outside of the job so to speak and she had spoken perhaps informally to trevor butler about this and that caused us to go and see her
02:03:46 and that caused us to go and see her officially as it were rather than just sort of talking over the kitchen table to trevor and his wife to reassure her of of our support
02:03:58 to reassure her of of our support and that we would do anything she needed in the way of support officially
02:04:03 and was your concern about
02:04:07 about her welfare or the operational security of the sds in that case her welfare and the operational security of the sds or just her welfare just her welfare
02:04:25 you obviously did have
02:04:29 have some contact with the wives as you have described
02:04:31 described looking back with hindsight do you think that the sds could have done more to support uh the wives of
02:04:44 uh the wives of those who were deployed undercover for years on end yes i think that some probably i mean reading other people's evidence it's clear that in some cases the wives weren't spoke uh weren't spoken to
02:04:55 weren't spoke uh weren't spoken to before deployment that was probably an oversight or plain wrong um
02:05:00 um maybe again with hindsight
02:05:06 we should have put some arrangement in place to perhaps make regular contacts with the wives if only on the telephone to make sure everything was was in order which which we didn't
02:05:20 which which we didn't um other than the incident which i've described elsewhere where one of the wives had a serious domestic accident and we looked after her husband in that way and arranged his duties so
02:05:34 in that way and arranged his duties so he could spend time with him we may have sent her some flowers or contacted her or something as a result of that domestic accident
02:05:42 thank you can we go now to
02:05:43 now to your chain of command you've described that superintendent david palmer hall had a light touch
02:05:59 david palmer hall had a light touch and was reactive and welfare orientated how often would you speak to him daily
02:06:03 daily if if if i took his place when he retired
02:06:04 retired he was one floor up um he was obviously very not obviously he was very interested in what was going on
02:06:11 on um
02:06:12 um and wanted to be informed and would he have known which fields the sds officers were deployed into no probably not would he have known about salient events within the unit's
02:06:24 within the unit's life
02:06:30 yes if it was something that i felt he needed to know about i would have informed him and did he feed down to you any requests for intelligence or did
02:06:41 any requests for intelligence or did they come through a different route i would have come through a different route
02:06:46 route did he feed down any any other feedback about the sds
02:06:58 um not that i can remember he was always interested in welfare and things like that as as i've touched on um
02:07:02 um a very gentlemanly sort of character and and
02:07:04 and wanted to make sure that people were being looked after
02:07:12 chief superintendent you've described as having limited involvement the occasional supervisory visit what would a supervisory visit entail usually a visit to one or other safe
02:07:23 usually a visit to one or other safe houses on one of the weekly meetings to just meet them have a chat with them say well done that sort of thing so this is is this to be distinguished from
02:07:38 is this to be distinguished from a visit from the top brass in the sense that this was not a timetable staged prepared for events it was sitting in on a or on an ordinary safe house meeting i mean
02:07:53 safe house meeting i mean ray wilson who was my boss to start with would have taken a slightly different view to jeff craft when he became my boss because jeff had been in my position so he knew more he would probably have taken more of an interest than raided
02:08:05 than raided you've described the commander as being rarely
02:08:06 rarely involved yes but would have known not only of the existence of the sds but broadly speaking what it was doing oh absolutely he he would have um
02:08:22 he he would have um probably signed off the annual report or at least certainly checked it through before it went to the dac whoever sent it off to home office and
02:08:29 and the main times i would see him would be when we were sending someone outside the met police district used to have to get permission to do that so i would usually instead of putting the paperwork
02:08:41 the paperwork through the correspondence system i would usually take the file actually up to him plunk it on his desk which gave him the opportunity to to ask what was going on and um make any comment that he wished to make
02:08:52 wished to make see
02:08:53 see and were those questions about both welfare and operational matters what from the commander
02:09:05 probably both because he would talk to me about the particular visit that i was proposing
02:09:07 proposing and so he'd want to know that the individual was going to be properly looked after and that the visit was necessary
02:09:13 necessary and he might i suppose throw in and comment and ask how things are going generally
02:09:18 generally but
02:09:21 but a general comment that you might make if you if you see someone now you moved to vincent square during your tenure didn't you yes uh the chain of command formally remained the same absolutely
02:09:32 remained the same absolutely but instead of being in the same building in close proximity you were a 15-minute walk away yes did that inevitably mean that the frequency of contact diminished
02:09:46 i suppose it meant that you had to make an effort if you wanted to talk face-to-face with someone but as i said it was only 15 minutes away could we look at the end what the annual report has to say about this it's a tab 22 it's mps-072
02:10:06 and when we get that up if you could have page five please
02:10:16 thank you
02:10:22 just a moment
02:10:25 if we could have paragraph seven please
02:10:33 due to the pressure on space at commissioner's office the sds administration was moved to november in november to vincent square this arrangement has proved generally
02:10:44 arrangement has proved generally satisfactory and in terms of security positively advantageous although as a result of the move the sds has become a little remote from the rest of special branch contact is maintained through frequent visits to
02:10:56 through frequent visits to commissioner's office by members of the office staff and the continued presence in that building of the chief superintendent and superintendent who are in overall charge of the squad
02:11:14 are in overall charge of the squad this is the report for your year you would of course have approved this report
02:11:19 report the words a little remote those do suggest that
02:11:25 that it might have had some impact on
02:11:27 on the level of supervision i don't think so sir i think that was just making the the point in terms of distance i mean coincidentally of course i got promoted um
02:11:40 um a month or a couple of months after the move
02:11:43 move so having been in the office in vincent square i then went back to the office at the yard so i knew what was going on there it
02:11:54 it didn't really make a lot of difference and it was more secure because if you imagine we were going out from scotland yard car park in our undercover cars out to meet the staff
02:12:05 staff and had anyone been trying to track us it it would perhaps been easier from scotland yard than from vincent square you can quite see there was security reasons to do it but what i'm interested in you being the
02:12:21 but what i'm interested in you being the person who was in post when it starts to happen
02:12:25 happen whether you detected if only the slight beginnings of it the potential of a unit to drift away from under the wing of the rest of special branch and to become in the fullness of time
02:12:40 and to become in the fullness of time quite isolated no i don't think so sir because well not because because in addition to the sds the the surveillance team was housed over there as well which is also part of a special branch so
02:12:53 so we actually moved into close pro and that was part of squad as well um so no i don't and you could actually see scotland yard from that building it was it was that close
02:13:01 close so i don't see it as a problem at all can i now ask you um a little bit more about
02:13:12 about an overview of your year's tenure or thereabouts are you able to help with
02:13:26 the quantity and quality of reporting that emanated from the sds both in terms of in comparison to the whole special branch
02:13:32 branch effort
02:13:36 effort and in terms of the impact it might have had
02:13:38 had but
02:13:40 but taking the quantity first without access to contemporaneous records
02:13:47 records i i couldn't tell you that that would have been available we certainly kept a record of quantity
02:13:56 in terms of quality i don't recall any
02:14:07 i don't recall any complaints i don't recall any particular plaudits from within the mps either but i don't recall any complaints it was a busy year as i illustrated at the beginning of my evidence
02:14:15 looking at the commission's annual report for that year i would guess that the sds was providing intelligence on at least five demonstrations a week
02:14:26 demonstrations a week plus an unspecified number of of industrial disputes where there was a police presence at the picket line maybe none i i don't know at all on that so
02:14:36 so it was five reports a week there was no complaints about quality that i'm aware of and no particular plaudits either that i can remember
02:14:52 can remember and in terms of the overall impact i think that some it was a busy year for special branch as a whole i mean especially didn't just deal with demonstrations as you're aware it had many other um strings to its bow
02:15:08 it would have been seen as a busy year i think the sds would have been seen as pulling its weight i can't really be any more specific than that i mean the two things that really stand out from the annual report are as we looked at earlier the
02:15:22 as we looked at earlier the violence between the far left and the far right
02:15:24 far right and they returned to work march are the two things yes i mean the left and right demos as i recall the big ones there were um
02:15:37 were um nine or ten of those in that year um all requiring very very hefty policing
02:15:38 policing and i would imagine if the sds had done anything wrong there got anything wrong then that would have been the cause of complaint but it was a busy year
02:15:52 complaint but it was a busy year did having been an undercover officer yourself affect the way in which you manage the sds
02:16:00 well my deployment was was relatively short
02:16:01 short as i said when the sds was formed the intention was to just keep it up until the next demonstration but for reasons above my pay grade it was it was kept on
02:16:20 it was i think i've used the word in the past it was quite an amateur operation when i first joined it but
02:16:21 but i do feel at least i had an understanding of the pressures that they were under albeit for a relatively short time so i think it gave me more empathy
02:16:35 so i think it gave me more empathy towards the field officers that might otherwise have been the case clearly mike ferguson probably had even more empathy than me because he'd been a
02:16:48 empathy than me because he'd been a well-embedded field officer in his time so i think that's how it affected my outlook on them were you ever involved in preparing material or briefings for the home office
02:16:54 office about the sds no other than the annual report
02:17:08 moving on to your time i'm just going to touch on this very briefly as a superintendent in s squad you were on the other side of the that managerial relationship uh
02:17:20 uh how did you manage that could you give us an idea of the nature and frequency of contact that you had well it decreased because um in that role um i had with the chief
02:17:36 in that role um i had with the chief superintendent um other parts of s squad to supervise i probably paid more attention to the sds than i would otherwise have done because
02:17:43 because uh i probably still expected to be a chief inspector down there for that year and the promotion surprised me as it probably surprised my colleagues um
02:18:01 um and another issue there was that during 1982 as well as everything else that went on uh we had the people visit and um uh jeffrey kraft was the protection officer for the for the pope so he was actually
02:18:13 so he was actually missing for a couple of months or so for the preparation and the actual visit
02:18:16 visit so i was sort of by myself in the office then
02:18:17 then um
02:18:24 so that was how the year went i'm not sure again i've answered your question did you
02:18:28 you make requests of the of your successor uh for specific intelligence not no not specific i i uh because trevor butler got promoted to chief inspector on the same day i think as i got promoted superintendent
02:18:40 got promoted superintendent as i said i showed more interest in it than probably um my predecessor had only because i knew what was going on and who was who and so on and so forth but no i had to leave it to him get on with things as much as the way i'd expected
02:19:01 things as much as the way i'd expected to be left to get on with things myself the brixton riot happened in 1981 um
02:19:06 um are you able from the position you held in s squad to say anything about
02:19:13 public order policing not not from the riots themselves but in the aftermath and in particular whether the sds made any contribution to that i've got a feeling that they didn't and i i my recollection is we did look at
02:19:28 i i my recollection is we did look at that to say were the sds able to to make any contribution and i think the only thing that they might have done and this could be inaccurate would be to to be shown some photographs to see if
02:19:41 to be shown some photographs to see if they could identify any of the rioters as
02:19:50 as people that that have come within their purview there was an officer who was deployed into the swp in southeast london
02:19:51 london i think from recollection hn 356
02:20:05 i think from recollection hn 356 who was moved to brixton when the swp established a branch there can you recall that
02:20:20 i i knew him he was um one of my officers when i was chief inspector
02:20:27 inspector i don't think i was aware that he was moved over there
02:20:36 vetting i mean vetting not blacklisting um
02:20:37 um the
02:20:37 the 1979 special branch annual report includes some statistics under the heading vetting it says reports on
02:20:49 heading vetting it says reports on information obtained by individuals two thousand two sorry that was two thousand eight hundred and eighty six and inquiries for box five
02:20:58 box five in fact i think we better call this up could we have mps-0727595
02:21:07 just to make sure the note i've made is correct
02:21:08 correct page 27 please
02:21:18 um you can see those statistics reports and information obtained by individual officers 8 000 and 25 forgive me
02:21:28 me and then you'll see the other statistics in front of you the inquiries for box 500 2846.
02:21:35 can you first of all explain um
02:21:36 um what
02:21:40 what this what special branch did in relation to vetting was it vetting people itself
02:21:49 actually i don't really know what some of these things are we we had a vetting office which was tiny and i think had
02:22:01 think had two or maybe three tops members of staff um
02:22:06 um they used to start the ball rolling with
02:22:10 with applications for vetting and do some of the initial searches for police staff so that would that would answer some of those things
02:22:23 those things i assume the enquiries for box 500 were just requests for searches in special branch records uh
02:22:29 uh by the security service doing their own vetting
02:22:32 um
02:22:41 i'm assuming that the inquires and applicants for police forces and civil staff were similarly um applications for searches in special branch records
02:22:54 um for vetting but of course they should only duplicate what's in um security service records so i'm not actually sure what some of those things are i'm afraid well if if
02:23:07 those things are i'm afraid well if if you can't answer this next question just say so do you know whether any of the reports on information obtained by individual officers would have come from the sds
02:23:15 the sds i don't even know what that means i'm afraid
02:23:16 afraid and under the inquiries for box 500 let us assume that you are correct that this is
02:23:27 is requests for searches of special branch records
02:23:30 records would it follow that it's at least possible
02:23:33 possible that some of the records that would have been looked up would have come from the sds because sds intelligence reports ended up on special branch five yes yes absolutely
02:23:46 um a very specific question about mike ferguson and if i can have a specific answer
02:23:52 answer please
02:23:53 please do you know whether mike ferguson assumed a position of
02:24:00 of responsibility within the anti-apartheid movement when he was an undercover police officer i have no idea
02:24:11 a follow-up question from something you said
02:24:14 said right at the start of your evidence about the
02:24:18 about the practice of using deceased children's identities do you know how it came about that the
02:24:31 that the sds started to use that practice now all i can say as i said at that time is that i left in october 68 and we weren't doing that none of us
02:24:43 none of us i came back as a matter of record in january 80 and then it was a widespread practice i think almost no
02:24:54 a widespread practice i think almost no i don't think all of them but nearly all of my officers had used dead children's identities where it happened along the path i don't know i'm afraid thank you um you mentioned getting some
02:25:05 thank you um you mentioned getting some training from the security service when we were discussing subversion was that training about subversion no the security service ran um they had a
02:25:16 the security service ran um they had a training wing i think if it wasn't about subversion we don't need to go any further unless it was relevant to your sds work in which case please could you tell us
02:25:25 tell us it was
02:25:31 it was a course really about the work of the security service and that included some discussion on subversion um if we could have a please ucpi 5034702
02:25:49 i was reminded during the break that we've got some evidence that this special branch training course at least for the year we've got the syllabus which is 1979 involved some of the course being taught
02:26:05 may have been of relevance to special to the security service could we have a look at pages of page four first of all please
02:26:17 and there's at the bottom of that page a box 500 speaker referred to about right-wing extremism can you recall whether when
02:26:30 extremism can you recall whether when you joined special branch you were given any
02:26:31 any training by security service speakers
02:26:38 uh
02:26:51 i don't think so it was more on job training i was actually responsible for these courses in a later incarnation and if you like these will run in parallel with the security service courses that i referred to a minute or so ago and these were two week courses run and managed by met
02:27:03 week courses run and managed by met police special branch which was seen as the
02:27:05 the senior special branch if i can perhaps incorrectly call it that the largest special branch with some national responsibilities and we would run these courses in conjunction with the security service
02:27:20 conjunction with the security service and they would provide lecturers for a number of
02:27:21 number of number of topics but i don't think i went to one of these myself
02:27:28 myself thank you you've been very patient mr mars i'm very grateful for your assistance now we've now reached the point where there'll be a short break and we'll see whether anyone wants to encourage me to reprise my role
02:27:43 are we going on this occasion to take the usual 20 minutes to permit those who've been hearing our evidence but with a 10 minute delay to
02:27:49 to intervene if they wish we are sir although one of the great advantages of being in person is that i think quite a lot of what would otherwise have been raised now was raised with me at the break yes
02:28:05 break yes then um we will break then until 25 past and
02:28:06 and then resume and
02:28:08 and not that long after that i think your um ordeal in the witness box will be will come to an end thank you sir
02:48:30 all rise please
02:48:44 mr mills not very much just a few questions
02:48:45 questions um
02:48:48 um first of all you gave some evidence about
02:48:54 about how you helped to exercise to find judgment with the assumption of positions of responsibility and said that you would say yes or no if a position was proposed can
02:49:07 yes or no if a position was proposed can you think of any position you said no to no i can't answer the a a threat the threat assessments for a8
02:49:14 for a8 would the threat assessment be disseminated to anybody else other than the a8 yeah i think it's a question for them really but but answering it to that's my ability
02:49:26 answering it to that's my ability it was written deliberately in a bland way it was probably either unclassified or sort of confidential or even restricted
02:49:37 restricted it was on a special form and it had threat assessment at the top and i believe that was it was deliberately written so it could be given uh further down the command chain
02:49:48 given uh further down the command chain if it was needed not sure about that but that's my belief a7 can you help us with who a7 was community relations branch uh
02:50:00 uh going back to the 1971 document i showed you almost at the beginning of your evidence and the number the s number oh yes and you said that you thought that
02:50:12 yes and you said that you thought that was a there was a series of numbers for all the special branch reports is there any way of telling which bit of special branch can be related to which number yes um
02:50:23 yes um the
02:50:31 the makeup of special branch was it had lettered squads a squad dealt with protection so nothing to do with sds whatsoever that was of um ministers of state not royalty all protection other than royalty
02:50:44 protection other than royalty b squad was the irish i wasn't so much asking you which squad did what i was asking you on the number if you had the s number yeah could you tell from the number
02:50:56 could you tell from the number which part of special branch that report no the s would give you the part of i know you've said to me s didn't exist then
02:51:02 then so i'm a bit confused at that but it do you think there might have been an a and a b well there would have been an a ever because they did but there would have been a b a b a c yes
02:51:15 to the best of your knowledge would would there be any way of telling whether it had come from the sds from that number
02:51:25 well i'm just wondering if you tell me that
02:51:26 that there was no s squad because i do i do remember that it was created after some of the other squads hence no alphabetical sequence
02:51:38 sequence i'm just wondering if that was an sds number
02:51:41 number sds kept its own records which are probably long gone i'm guessing
02:51:46 guessing um so it
02:51:48 um so it it could be that if you told me squad didn't exist at that time do you know whether there was any key kept as in a key to the fight to that type of filing number
02:52:06 the fight to that type of filing number no it's it's as i described it there was barrymonde was it was pre-computerization it was a big um sort of a4 um
02:52:12 um book
02:52:17 book um with numbers sort of stamped down the side and if you're on b squad shall we say you would go and take numbers 1 to 200
02:52:23 1 to 200 from the main book you'd put them in the b squad folder and as a report was written that would be given a b squad number and that be transferred to the main book which would give you
02:52:35 would give you so that was the only central record and that would give you an overall number of reports that have been written in the
02:52:46 reports that have been written in the course of a year and the only the guide would just be that prefix letter i see so nobody
02:52:49 so nobody took a record of which numbers had been taken by which yes yes
02:52:52 yes yes the the book as i recall and this is going way way back now was kept in the admin office and um
02:53:06 i'm guessing that there would be a sort of pencil annotation saying you know numbers 1 to 200 b squad then it will be filled in ink as the
02:53:14 the uh as those 200 reports were submitted by b squad okay thank you it's very bit clunky but that's all we had in in those days
02:53:30 hn155 oh yes you visited his wife because there was a concern that he wasn't treating her well did that involve domestic abuse
02:53:42 might have did it involve violence i'm not sure whether it went that far i really can't remember
02:53:52 um possibly
02:53:56 possibly did that give you any concerns about his suitability to be an sds officer
02:54:06 uh again at this length of time i can't remember
02:54:07 remember it probably should have done if if it was physical i really can't remember it was physical or mental if i can use
02:54:17 can use that word
02:54:27 he was a larger than life character um i assumed that trevor butler and i would have discussed it
02:54:34 we didn't raise it any further up the management chain um
02:54:40 um so i can only assume that if we we would have discussed it and we decided it was okay for him to carry on i can't be any more specific than that i'm afraid you'll be very pleased to know mr moss that was the last of my questions
02:54:54 that was the last of my questions thank you there may be some questions from your own representatives mr sons
02:55:01 thank you sir um just on the last point about the the visit to
02:55:03 visit to hm155's
02:55:05 hm155's uh wife
02:55:12 would you bring any bells if i suggested that the difficulty in the issue was financial
02:55:30 i've noted i i'm sort of going into other realms i've noted in in the evidence given
02:55:32 given that
02:55:33 that um
02:55:34 um hm155
02:55:38 hm155 mistakenly has said that i went with with martin gray to to visit him which is inaccurate and he says it was to do with his divorce
02:55:51 divorce that's 155's recollection and he objected to us going to see her so i suppose it's possible that it's money i really can't remember after this time
02:56:01 time very well thank you there is a suggestion that he was not paying the maintenance that he'd agreed to i think oh that that could be the case sir i i'm sorry i really can't remember um i
02:56:13 i'm sorry i really can't remember um i know i'm sort of leading with the chin on behalf of one of my colleagues but mr butler may be able to help you more when he comes thank you
02:56:22 thank you um
02:56:24 um did you receive training on the the powers and duties of a police constable uh when you joined the force yes you all police officers and it was then a national um
02:56:37 and it was then a national um requirement not not a national school there were a number of police training schools but you did a 13-week course taking you right through from the beginning
02:56:51 beginning up to you were with with exams going through until you were fit to be released on to an unsuspecting public
02:57:02 released on to an unsuspecting public and was there then further training on your powers and duties when you you joined special branch um
02:57:03 um no i i don't recall the the course that was referred to in the previous session that we we saw the um the part of the timetable from
02:57:15 timetable from i don't think that existed when i joined special branch um
02:57:22 and so i think the answer that was probably not the training was done more on a mentoring basis and my mentor was in fact someone who's giving evidence uh in this in this trash
02:57:34 trash uh did you understand that when you were in an sds undercover officer and when you were supervising undercover officers that you and they were acting in
02:57:45 that you and they were acting in accordance with your powers and duties we believed so at the time uh and i have to say that things i've picked up from this inquiry having been following it indicate that maybe that wasn't the case but i wasn't aware of it at the time
02:57:58 at the time you were asked if it would be fair to say that no consideration was given to the question whether it was illegal
02:58:10 the question whether it was illegal whether it was legal to attend meetings in in private houses and you said yes um do you mean that there was no legal analysis of that character out or
02:58:22 legal analysis of that character out or that you just didn't think about whether it was lawful or not sorry what did i say yes to so apologies you were asked um if it would be fair to say that no consideration
02:58:35 be fair to say that no consideration was given to the question of whether or not it was legal to attend meetings in people's homes
02:58:40 did you mean by that that there was no separate legal analysis or that you just didn't think whether it was legal or not i would say both of those questions that was there was certainly
02:58:53 was certainly um even when i was the chief inspector that
02:58:57 that we didn't take any legal advice that i'm aware of
02:58:58 aware of well we didn't take any at all when i was the uh chief inspector further back down the line i don't know whether there was advice on setting the whole um squad up
02:59:10 on setting the whole um squad up obviously home office advice was taken whether they took legal advice i don't know
02:59:15 know but no i
02:59:18 but no i i i genuinely didn't see that there was a problem with gaining entry to people's houses in the way that we did and i conscious that miss kilroy
02:59:30 conscious that miss kilroy brought up a stated case which i had no knowledge of whatsoever but it was your understanding leaving aside whether anyone had
02:59:41 leaving aside whether anyone had consulted lawyers to your knowledge it was your understanding that that was lawful yes sir um
02:59:44 um if you had had concerns about the legality of anything that the sds was doing was there a route available to you for taking legal advice and what would that have been
02:59:58 have been yes the the met police had its own um still does have its own um legals now called the dls as i'm sure you're aware then called solicitors department so we had in-house solicitors
03:00:09 had in-house solicitors which uh we could have used i probably even as the chief inspector was not at the grade to go directly to them i had to probably go through senior managers special branch but
03:00:22 special branch but i am not relevant to this inquiry i'm relevant uh aware of um information consultations with them over other special branch issues um later on in my career when we did use it so
03:00:33 in my career when we did use it so they were there and they were available um you said to the to the joel the chair chairman put something to you that
03:00:44 chairman put something to you that taking confidential information it might not be a question of it being a crime but it being characterized as a civil wrong
03:00:51 wrong uh and you said you hadn't thought about that at the time but again did you think that taking confidential information was uh against the civil law no i didn't i i
03:01:07 no i didn't i i in truth i didn't give it a thought but because we were there to garner information and
03:01:12 and perhaps it should have occurred to me but it didn't that that
03:01:20 that that it would have it might have been illegal in one way or another um i didn't think of it
03:01:24 of it but your understanding was that it was lawful
03:01:25 lawful i believed it to be yes um just in terms of the intelligence that the sds obtained um could special branch of
03:01:41 obtained um could special branch of obtained the same intelligence um from open sources or from other covert methods
03:01:52 methods um certainly not from open sources no and from other covert methods uh even then i doubt it and other covert methods are actually far more cumbersome than many people understand
03:02:07 than many people understand i know we're talking in code here but um so i say no is the short answer to to that question well there's no there's no need to be shy about what what possible covert methods there might be available because we all know that there's
03:02:18 there's phone tapping and eavesdropping devices and
03:02:19 and paid informants and and so on um well i've touched on paid information they are
03:02:31 they are potentially they can be more troubled in their work they're difficult to to get and they're even more difficult to manage sometimes which i think was part of the rationale for the creation of the sds
03:02:37 sds um
03:02:42 and in terms of the the other covert methods they're they're they're not um you know telephone interception is is not a magic um
03:02:54 a magic way of getting information because it is actually far more labor-intensive than many people realize um and there's a limit a physical limit as to to
03:03:07 a physical limit as to to even if you're allowed to as to as to the quantity of telephone lines that you can eavesdrop on but to say the strong contra constraints on what you can do
03:03:17 do legal constraints thank you
03:03:20 thank you thank you sir i think it was a matter of um accuracy that depends upon the date on which it occurs
03:03:31 which it occurs after
03:03:33 after 1985 or six the law requires a warrant to be obtained before then
03:03:45 obtained before then practice under the burkitt commission's recommendations required a home office warrant to be obtained but
03:03:51 but one way or another you had to get high up permission to do it thank you sir that i think does conclude um all questions is it not and indeed today's business sir yes
03:04:00 sir yes thank you very much um i'm grateful to you for coming and i'm glad to know that we haven't interrupted your holiday and you'll be able to take it as you'd planned sorry i've made it all finish a
03:04:13 planned sorry i've made it all finish a little bit later than normal sir not at all no that's perfectly all right thank you
03:05:09 you