Lindsey German, Central Committee member of Socialist Workers Party, robustly challenges Security Service characterizations of SWP members as subversive and unintelligent. She defends SWP as peaceful organization participating in legitimate demonstrations, criticizes extensive surveillance of family events like Skegness rallies with infants, and argues disorder at demonstrations resulted from police tactics not SWP intentions.
00:21:57 e e
00:22:51 good morning and welcome to uh today's hearing uh those at the back will know what I'm going to say uh you may use any mobile electronic device to transmit silently to the outside world what
00:23:04 silently to the outside world what you've seen and heard at the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event which you are describing uh 10 minutes have to elapse so that the video stream is not preempted it is subject to a 10-minute delay you may not use an electronic
00:23:17 delay you may not use an electronic device for recording proceedings or taking photographs um before Mr German is sworn may I apologize to you on behalf of the inquiry as I know David bar has already done for the
00:23:30 bar has already done for the inconvenience to which you were put earlier this week and may I express my gratitude to you for agreeing to return today to give evidence I I hope in an
00:23:43 today to give evidence I I hope in an uninterrupted day thank you very much thank you
00:23:51 yes please repeat after me I do solemnly sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the
00:24:02 give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you thanks Mr thank you sir uh Dr German could you give us your full name please
00:24:14 could you give us your full name please Lindsay and German uh you've provided a second witness statement to the inquiry which is dated the 6th of March 20124 are the contents of that witness
00:24:25 20124 are the contents of that witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and believe yes they are you tell us that you were elected to the Central Committee of the Socialist Workers Party in
00:24:41 Workers Party in 1979 and as I understand it you remained a member of the Central Committee throughout the period which is material for our present purposes right through to the mid 90s and Beyond that's
00:24:57 to the mid 90s and Beyond that's right uh you tell is that uh your role on the Central Committee included setting day today tasks could you give us a little bit of a flavor of what that means in practice well what it means is that we would have an annual conference and we would have
00:25:09 an annual conference and we would have regular National meetings and we would decide what we thought priorities were and then depending on what job you had you would try to implement those
00:25:21 you would try to implement those perspectives so for example when I was women's organizer I might organize meetings I edited the magazine um I encouraged branches to do certain things
00:25:34 encouraged branches to do certain things we would have certain priorities that we wanted them to follow it would be those kind of things uh later on I did I edited the Review magazine so that was my main job at the time but again it would involve traveling the country talking to districts and branches and
00:25:48 talking to districts and branches and getting them to do certain things that we thought were appropriate to do support for a demonstration support for a strike those kind of things and in terms of the organization of demonstration s what level of involvement did you have
00:26:03 s what level of involvement did you have well that depended very very much on the demonstration usually the demonstrations weren't organized by the SSP they were organized by various bodies broader
00:26:17 organized by various bodies broader Trade union bodies or maybe groups of anti-fascists for example as was the case with Welling so they would not just be organized by the swp they would be organized by a broad range of people so that depended it very often was the case
00:26:30 that depended it very often was the case I would just be saying to people can you book coaches to come on this demonstration or can you turn up at the demonstration understand there be some demonstrations you'd organize and some which you would support
00:26:41 which you would support um I'm all right to understand that the Central Committee met quite regularly it met every week and does would that mean that you would discuss a
00:26:52 that you would discuss a demonstration before and after it occurred that very much again depended on the size of the demonstration the nature of the demonstration um very
00:27:03 nature of the demonstration um very often they were just things that we wouldn't discuss in any great detail we would say there's a demonstration about a particular topic we'd like people to
00:27:14 a particular topic we'd like people to support it but we wouldn't go into any great detail about it um can I ask you what was your in general terms we'll come to specifics later on but in general terms what was the level of your personal attendance
00:27:30 the level of your personal attendance that demonstrated and rallies that the party either organized or supported with national demonstrations obviously I would be on quite a lot of them again it varied but yes I would say I would be on quite a lot of the
00:27:51 I would be on quite a lot of the demonstrations that uh were taking place with local ones it was much less likely that I would be on one but for example in the early 1980s the labor party organized a lot of demonstrations over unemployment and I remember traveling to Liverpool where there was a very very big a huge demonstration for a
00:28:04 big a huge demonstration for a demonstration outside of London which I was part of but I was part of it as an ordinary member I wasn't organizing it that that was organized by the labor
00:28:21 that that was organized by the labor party thank you I'd like to move now to showing you some of the documents that were compiled about the Socialist Workers Party to explore um whether or not they're accurate I'd like to start with a document compiled by the security
00:28:33 document compiled by the security service their brief guide to subversion of
00:28:39 of 1985 sir it's at tab C1 and for the projector it's 32553
00:29:08 this is the first page Dr German um just to orientate ourselves you will see it is the brief guide to subversion in Great Britain I can tell you it's a
00:29:20 Great Britain I can tell you it's a 1985 uh version and this is the section about the Socialist Workers Party the bit I'd particularly like to ask you about first is on the second page at the top the section entitled ideology stroke
00:29:35 top the section entitled ideology stroke policies the Socialist Workers Party swp is a trotskyist organization c trotskyism 2 its objective is therefore the overthrow of the capitalist system and its replacement by a form of
00:29:49 and its replacement by a form of government based on workers councils protected by a workers militia if I just stop there is that factually accurate
00:30:04 yes in in the sense that we are we always stood for the overthrow of the system but we also saw it as something which we saw as a democratic process so I would say this is rather a kind of well it is a very condensed sort of
00:30:20 well it is a very condensed sort of version of it and um its replacement by a form of government based on workers councils uh yes but that was something that we based very much on the idea that people would
00:30:31 people would um organize those from below that they would be things that were based on workplaces in communities and so on um protected by workers militia is a kind of is is a very condensed way of looking
00:30:51 of is is a very condensed way of looking at it that you might um you would say in those situations that we always feared as was the case with many revolutions that did take place that the um the threat of violence came from counterrevolution and that therefore um we would be prepared to defend ourselves but it would be seen in that context so yeah that would be my caveat to that
00:31:04 yeah that would be my caveat to that particular description of it I suppose okay uh if we carry on and it's belief that a socialist revolution could not survive in one country in isolation must in consequence be built
00:31:21 isolation must in consequence be built internationally that's right yes it is opposed to the use of terrorism and indiscriminate violence but believes that violence may be necessary to achieve political aims and to
00:31:35 achieve political aims and to consolidate any Revolution achieved well I think the important phrase there is actually to consolidate any Revolution achieved because again um we looked at the examples for example of Chile where
00:31:47 the examples for example of Chile where there was a democratically elected left government which was overthrown by a very violent coup with 10,000 people dead in 1973 so I suppose that um we
00:31:58 dead in 1973 so I suppose that um we would say that in that situation you do need to defend yourself as the uh Chilean government attempted to do unfortunately not successfully so yes
00:32:09 unfortunately not successfully so yes again to put it in that context I think it's very important to put it in the context that it isn't our whole tradition our whole politics were not the idea of a kind of leftwing coup which would take over from the existing government we believed that
00:32:22 the existing government we believed that you could only achieve socialism I still do believe this you could only achieve socialism by an organic movement based on work Class People organizing themselves and therefore presenting an alternative to existing
00:32:38 alternative to existing government uh could we now move to the next page um of the same
00:32:46 document thank you um at the top there are some membership figures which cover the first few years of the
00:33:01 which cover the first few years of the period we're interested in um Dr German this isn't a memory test nor am I by seeking absolute Precision good are these figures in the right ballpark I guess so I'm just thinking I mean I joined in
00:33:18 mean I joined in 72 we had around 3 or 4,000 members then so it says 2 350 but then it goes up to 3500 in
00:33:24 3500 in 74 77 we definitely were bigger by them because they' been the very big uh movements against the Tory government and then continued to a certain extent under labor I think it's true that in
00:33:38 under labor I think it's true that in the early 80s we declined somewhat um as a result of the general changes in politics overall the um uh the rise of
00:33:49 politics overall the um uh the rise of fure the defeat of the miners and so on um I'm a bit surprised by 85 because I thought that after the minor strike we did actually recruit some people I'm surprised it's low
00:34:06 surprised it's low in ' 85 than it was in ' 84 but I would suggest that these are fairly accurate figures yeah just settling on that 1977 figure of over 5,000 did the Resurgence at that time of the far right in the form of the national front have
00:34:19 in the form of the national front have anything to do with growth in membership I think so I think it would have been one of the main drivers of membership people were extremely concerned about the rise of the National front it did very very well in elections for a time
00:34:31 very very well in elections for a time it was a real threat on the streets so I think people would have felt they needed to get involved and get more committed to socialist politics and I think that's what that
00:34:45 what that reflected thank you um the bottom of that page it says activities the party's main activities are a the fostering of industrial disputes until 1982 it operated within
00:34:59 disputes until 1982 it operated within trade unions through the rank and file movement but members now take part in Union activity and Industrial disputes
00:35:11 Union activity and Industrial disputes openly so first of all is it right that the swp fostered industrial disputes
00:35:22 the swp fostered industrial disputes well certainly we encouraged people who wanted to go on strike to do so and in some cases you'll have a situation I know from my own Union branch where people say we would we'd like more pay should we go on strike to get it or is it um impossible to do so so there are
00:35:37 it um impossible to do so so there are those debates and we would have been on the side of people um wanting to go on strike I don't think this is quite accurate though about um I mean maybe you're going to ask me about this I don't know um about the Ranken far
00:35:54 don't know um about the Ranken far movement wasn't open it was a very open movement in a whole number of Union so people knew about it it was a way of gathering together people in a particular Union um um to uh to promote the most militant policy that we thought would be appropriate at the
00:36:05 would be appropriate at the time uh you've saved me the question thank you very much um and we can take
00:36:22 thank you very much um and we can take this document down now and can we go to a similar document only uh many years later this is the security services brief guide to subversion 1995 tab C3 sir 36 6
00:36:42 10 and if we go first of all to page three
00:36:50 please just a look at the membership figures again bringing bringing the second half of the 80s and the first half of the '90s in into play again the question is for that period after
00:37:06 question is for that period after 1985 are the figures recorded there in the right
00:37:18 ballpark yes I I think so I mean I think the 94 figure of 10,000 while it may have been claimed is probably a bit higher than we actually had but I would say those were we had several thousand members would be um how I would Des
00:37:30 members would be um how I would Des describe it yeah and would the if the if the absolute numbers aren't quite right would the broad Trend that there was an escalation in membership in the early
00:37:42 escalation in membership in the early 1990s with a particular Spike between 92 and 94 are the are the trends correct I'm not quite sure about that to be honest I it seems to me you are
00:37:54 be honest I it seems to me you are saying it or the figures are saying that it's nearly doubling in two years would
00:38:05 it's nearly doubling in two years would have thought that's probably a bit more than it was in other words it may have gone from 6,000 to 7 or 8,000 rather which wouldn't be such a dramatic increase that would be my guess on it okay and moving to the drivers for those is one of the drivers uh the pole
00:38:16 is one of the drivers uh the pole tax the pole tax definitely uh was a thing that that did Galvanize a very big movement and a very big movement which people again look towards social
00:38:27 people again look towards social organizations to join I mean not just the swp other ones as well so yeah that would have been one of the things uh and
00:38:41 would have been one of the things uh and would it be the re the Resurgence of the far right this time in the form of the British national party yes that would have been a factor although I think if you look at the
00:38:52 although I think if you look at the period of the early 90s people were very very shocked that labor didn't win the election in '92 and I think that therefore there were a whole number of issues that came up that you had this Tory government for the next five years there was obviously the rise of uh the far right was a very
00:39:09 the rise of uh the far right was a very serious concern that people had uh there had been the pole tax although they obviously had to abandon that there was also things like the criminal justice bill which was very unpopular so there was a range of different issues I would say around that time that led to it and
00:39:26 say around that time that led to it and would the collapse of the Eastern block style of communism also have been included in the drivers now that's a very big question and I'm not
00:39:34 not sure um I'm not sure we benefited that much from um from recruitment over that as as I'm sure you aware the S swp actually was well known
00:39:51 aware the S swp actually was well known for being an organization which um never thought Russia was socialist we described it as uh State capitalist and one might have thought that around that time we might get the benefit of that of being correct in that analysis but
00:40:05 being correct in that analysis but actually I think what happened was that one of the factors uh around the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern block was that um it led to a demoralization among socialists that who who had had Illusions in it and I think
00:40:21 who had had Illusions in it and I think that tended to affect the whole left so uh I'm not sure I mean we probably did recruit people out of it but not in in significant numbers I wouldn't have said we may come back to that in a little bit more detail in a moment um but for the
00:40:40 more detail in a moment um but for the for the moment I think we can um move on from that page to the next page to page four to touch upon something you have just mentioned this is the activities paragraph of the brief guide and I'm
00:40:51 paragraph of the brief guide and I'm interested in drawing your attention Dr German to subparagraph D the M the party's Main activ ities are and D is campaigning on social and political issues such as a community charge and
00:41:09 issues such as a community charge and more recently the criminal justice act the party has been among the leading opponents of the ACT through its representation on the cja although it has not been involved in the violence that has accompanied some
00:41:24 the violence that has accompanied some of the demonstrations against the act so first of all is it right that that was one of the swp's main activities at this time yes and I was
00:41:35 activities at this time yes and I was one of the people on the um main body of the cic ja so yes I was quite involved in that in that campaign and we did see it as very important we saw it as a as an attack on civil liberties and something that we thought was important to oppose and the way that the S swp
00:41:52 to oppose and the way that the S swp mobilized on that issue is it right that that did not involve violence that's right we organized a mass demonstration which unfortunately um did end in violence because of the policing of the demonstration which was um which was I
00:42:10 demonstration which was um which was I felt was very very severe but certainly Our intention was a mass peaceful demonstration could we take that document down now please and go to
00:42:21 31619 so this is not in the bundle this is a 1991 document uh and it's about your amended Constitution that I want to ask uh so this is a report um
00:42:37 ask uh so this is a report um submitting a postc conference bulletin in
00:42:43 in 1991 um with the amended Constitution if we could go to the next page please on the left hand column on the first
00:42:52 first page the paragraph number one
00:43:03 and I'm interested um I'll read read it all out for those who are following online the Socialist Workers Party is an organization of revolutionary socialists dedicated to the overthrow of capitalism internationally and the construction of
00:43:19 internationally and the construction of a world socialist system the swp stands in and develops the Revolutionary communist tradition of Marx Lenin and Trotsky as opposed to the Social Democratic
00:43:30 Democratic and stalinist traditions just stopping there that's the distinction you were adverting to a moment ago isn't it with the state capitalists standing as it does in this tradition the swp believes
00:43:42 does in this tradition the swp believes that the working class is the only Force capable of building socialism in the world therefore it strives to construct a revolutionary party composed in its
00:43:59 a revolutionary party composed in its overwhelming majority of workers the swp is democratic centralists because the reol evolutionary party must be a disciplined activist combat organization it is democratic in
00:44:12 organization it is democratic in reaching its decisions and centralist in carrying them out stopping there combat organization what does that mean what it means is that it's it's a fairly common term that's used about
00:44:27 fairly common term that's used about organizations of these sorts and what it means is that we want to be an organization which is fighting alongside the working class in order to challenge many of the assumptions of government of
00:44:39 many of the assumptions of government of employers of all those things it doesn't mean I mean uh when it says combat organization it doesn't mean a military organization it means it means in the sense perhaps if you talked about
00:44:50 sense perhaps if you talked about combating you know you talk about combating ideas or you talk about combating uh a particular agenda by an employer for example it would be it's meant in that sense so it's meant as a
00:45:05 meant in that sense so it's meant as a uh an organization which is um centered on workingclass organization which is centered in the trade unions and argues for the kind of path that we think is going to be successful that's what it
00:45:16 going to be successful that's what it means it doesn't mean it doesn't mean we have a military Wing or anything like that because that was very far from from our
00:45:23 our aim thank you if we could take that down now please what I would like to understand is a little bit um about the swp's conception of the police in a
00:45:37 swp's conception of the police in a capitalist Society so I understand it central premises as a ruling class exploiting the working class the S swp wants to build a movement to overthrow
00:45:50 wants to build a movement to overthrow the ruling class and replace it with the sort of government that we saw in the synopsis is it the view of the P that
00:46:02 synopsis is it the view of the P that the role of the police in a capitalist Society is essentially to keep the ruling class in power the the role the view of the swp is that the there exists what we sometimes call a state machine which includes the police which includes the
00:46:18 includes the police which includes the Army uh which includes a whole range of bodies which are there in order to ensure that the people who already rule do continue to rule and that the police in that sense are seen as people who uh act in the interests of the um of the
00:46:33 act in the interests of the um of the ruling class at any one time and I would argue that that is correct I think if you look at the role of the police in a whole number of the disputes that perhaps we're going to come on to talk about you can see that it's very very
00:46:44 about you can see that it's very very clearly it is in order to weaken Trade union organization to weaken the effect of industrial action we saw this in the minor strike we saw it in whopping and so that would be our our view of it yes
00:47:03 so that would be our our view of it yes yes and as you would see it violently if they will act violently if necessary to secure their aim well I think to be perfectly Frank that that is incontrovertible I think that we've seen this time and time again and we have um hearings and we have inquiries going on
00:47:19 hearings and we have inquiries going on into issues like or grieve and Hillsboro and some of these things and uh I think we've seen that the police can act violently and do act violently and on certain occasions now this isn't true about every policeman you meet on the street or going or even on
00:47:32 street or going or even on demonstrations I I organized a number of demonstrations where we Lia with the police in a perfectly open and I think a perfectly reasonable Manner and I think they would say that but we know that at times that isn't the case and we know
00:47:46 times that isn't the case and we know that on those occasions the police do act
00:47:46 act violently and I think is it a fair summary of your witness statement you develop in some detail a
00:48:00 develop in some detail a trend after Margaret Thatcher com comes into power of the police changing and becoming harder in the way that they police dispute such as the minor strike um
00:48:08 um whopping Warrington and so forth yes I think that if you look at the the police under thater it does there's certainly
00:48:24 under thater it does there's certainly no question that it and again this isn't just the view of the S swp I think that any academic study will show you that the police do increase the level of combativity the level of violence the use of riot police the use of all these
00:48:37 use of riot police the use of all these things um I think that is simply the way that it developed and I think Thatcher was
00:48:38 was determined um to destroy the miners and she made sure that the police were very very well equipped for doing doing this
00:48:50 very well equipped for doing doing this sort of thing and she succeeded in doing this she she succeeded in the police were definitely politically involved in
00:49:02 were definitely politically involved in the whole popping dispute I think again you if you look at the evidence of the closeness between Rupert Murdoch and Margaret thater I don't think that's that isn't a matter of of question really it is a a matter of fact I think so so yes I think it definitely
00:49:13 I think so so yes I think it definitely accelerated under Margaret fer and what was in Broad terms the swp's response to the hardening of
00:49:28 the hardening of policing during the 1980s well in Broad terms we very much opposed it we very much opposed the kind of policing that we saw at places like or geve we thought that uh this was a very politically
00:49:39 that uh this was a very politically motivated thing which was designed to weaken not just the left but the whole of working-class organization the whole of the trade unions that was the purpose I think of uh of this kind of policing
00:49:55 I think of uh of this kind of policing at the same time and again if you look at the example of the minor stri we argued very much against individual solutions to uh to this kind of violence we argued for a collective thing I mean
00:50:19 we argued for a collective thing I mean I don't know if you recall but there was a terrible case where um people dropped uh uh uh I don't know what it was a a brick or something which on a a taxi taking uh a minor to work when the strike was still going on and we we regarded this as individual action which was simply it was both wrong and counterproductive and we were very much
00:50:31 counterproductive and we were very much opposed to that sort of thing but at the same time we did think that the way in which the policing went in the 80s was very was
00:50:39 very was remarkably um increase in the level of um in the level of policing and in the level of violence of policing moving to the Cold War whilst
00:50:54 policing moving to the Cold War whilst the Cold War was still happening did the swp have a public position
00:51:02 position on the stance it would take in the event that the Cold War went hot well we opposed the idea of nuclear war we opposed the idea that um that there
00:51:15 opposed the idea that um that there could be destruction between ourselves and Russia and so on sorry am I no my question isn't clear enough if you could strip away the the new the possibility of a nuclear apocalypse uh if a conventional War Broken Out In Europe
00:51:34 conventional War Broken Out In Europe between the Warsaw Pact and NATO did the swp have a position on that well we would be opposed to both sides in the war we wouldn't have been in favor of um we we wouldn't have supported Russia but
00:51:47 we we wouldn't have supported Russia but we would have also said I think that the arming the the increase in nuclear weapons the increase in Conventional Weapons actually contributed to the possibility of War we were arguing all
00:51:59 possibility of War we were arguing all the time for um an end to this kind of militarism that was one of our main features we didn't I I guess we never explicitly said if there was a war
00:52:10 explicitly said if there was a war between the wara pact and NATO um we would support The wara Pact or we wouldn't support the warsa pack I guess that was something that we uh we just took the line we were against Wars on both sides and we saw both sides as major Imperial Powers which you know
00:52:24 major Imperial Powers which you know you're saying don't mention nuclear war but actually any conventional War involving both those sides would have rapidly headed towards some form of nuclear war which is what the cruise
00:52:36 nuclear war which is what the cruise missiles were all about they were the idea you could have a kind of tactical you know contained nuclear war in Europe and we we regarded that as just simply not the case
00:52:47 just simply not the case um did it remain the case during the years we're now talking about so in the 1980s and the first half of the '90s that the P had no foreign nation state
00:53:00 that the P had no foreign nation state backing it no never we've never had any foreign nation state backing us and did it remain the case uh during this period uh that there was no trotskyist
00:53:11 uh that there was no trotskyist government in the world unfortunately not partly because as we we've already referred to we didn't think you could have socialism in one country you need a global Revolution yeah can I move now to
00:53:35 global Revolution yeah can I move now to some of the the reporting on the Central Committee if we could have up please a document which you will find sir at B24
00:53:54 19923 this is a an SDS report dated the 24th of March 19 1992 uh and it comprises a list
00:54:07 comprises a list of leading Personalities in the swp with some description of each now the ones that I want to ask you about are first of all on this page the description of
00:54:22 of all on this page the description of Chris bambury Under The Heading Central Committee members it's right isn't it that Mr banry was a Central Committee
00:54:33 that Mr banry was a Central Committee Member yes that's right um describes him and this is a report by the officer we know as
00:54:35 know as hn9 an aggressive individual with a Mercurial temperament he is regularly present at demonstrations and other
00:54:49 present at demonstrations and other public order events in the London area for the purpose of directing and controlling the swp
00:55:00 controlling the swp contingent first of all in your how much experience did you have of Mr bambury a great
00:55:01 great deal and how how long had it just in years term how much had you known him I've known him since uh 1981 I think yeah
00:55:19 1981 I think yeah um was he an aggressive individual not at all no in my opinion I'd say the opposite I'd say he wasn't an aggressive individual did he ever have moments of aggression not that I would recall no
00:55:32 aggression not that I would recall no were there any subjects that might um elicit aggression from him for example particularly emotive
00:55:45 particularly emotive issues well he was a Celtic supporter football supporter so he got emotive about that I guess and he like all of us as socialists there were things that
00:55:58 as socialists there were things that made us very upset and at times made us angry the far right of course but that doesn't that doesn't mean you're aggressive does it it means that you are annoyed about something which is rather a different yeah um indeed it is and characteristic and I'm asking did for
00:56:10 characteristic and I'm asking did for example the activities of the far right prompt aggression from him no I mean he was he was on demonstrations and he would be opposed to the far right and
00:56:24 would be opposed to the far right and that was absolutely clear and there's and that would have been true of hundreds or even even thousands of s swp members but I don't regard him as particularly aggressive uh did he have a Mercurial
00:56:36 Mercurial temperament I wouldn't have described it as such
00:56:37 as such no was he regularly present at demonstration yes that's true yeah and when he
00:56:54 when he was did his position um mean that he did direct and control the swp contingent well that would have depended on the demonstrations sometimes he would have done and sometimes he wouldn't and um we had stewards on the demonstrations he would have been a steward sometimes he might have been the main Steward other
00:57:11 might have been the main Steward other times there would be other people doing that so if he was doing if he was in that role then yes he would have done how would you describe Mr bamber's temperament well I would say I mean he
00:57:24 temperament well I would say I mean he he's a flamboyant person he's quite um an extroverted person but I would say actually he's uh he's a very kind person at lots of levels that's as I know him
00:57:35 at lots of levels that's as I know him and I know him quite well um I would say that would be how I would describe him now you know I think we have to be very careful about these kind of you know these sketch sketches of people which
00:57:49 these sketch sketches of people which you know talk in these terms I mean what is that based on is it based on seeing somebody who's shouting slogans at a demonstration or is it based on any real knowledge and I would suspect it's based on the former if anything rather than than any real understanding of
00:58:01 than any real understanding of him if we could move to the next page please and the second um paragraph down which is the pen picture of
00:58:18 you says the editor of the Socialist worker review and a regular contributor to the various publications of the S swp privacy she is regularly seen at public order events but seems to adopt
00:58:31 public order events but seems to adopt the role of an observer rather than an organizer of the swp tactics well I'd say that isn't very
00:58:42 tactics well I'd say that isn't very accurate either because I mean it's it's May well be true on a whole number of demonstrations but I did along with other members of the Central Committee
00:58:54 other members of the Central Committee and with other um s swp members we did discuss tactics both on the demonstrations sometimes and also sometimes we discuss these things um in advance and we would um we would discuss certain things so yes I
00:59:07 would discuss certain things so yes I played that role so I think again this is
00:59:10 is slightly um if you don't mind me saying it's a slightly kind of you know superficial view of what I was doing if we could move to the next
00:59:26 was doing if we could move to the next page please in the paragraph about Pat stack I'm interested um in particular towards the end it says um he sometimes acts as a media spokesman for the
00:59:39 media spokesman for the swp and has always refused to condemn acts of disorder at major events um did he sometimes act as a
00:59:52 events um did he sometimes act as a media spokesman for the swp I think what this is referring to um is that after the U pole tax demonstration Pat as it says here had um or has uh major disability and wasn't on
01:00:05 or has uh major disability and wasn't on the demonstration himself so he acted as the spokesperson for the S swp I remember that well on the on the day and I think in subsequent days and he put forward the case which I think was
01:00:16 forward the case which I think was absolutely right for him to do so that he wasn't going to condemn the acts of that took place on that day acts of disorder as it's called here that he saw
01:00:31 disorder as it's called here that he saw this pole tax demonstration as very much a demonstration which started as a peaceful demonstration and was attacked by the police um so that he refu he did refuse to condemn those acts of disorder but I very much agreed with him about
01:00:44 but I very much agreed with him about that because I think when you look at what happened on the pole tax demonstration um it was very clear that that is what happened I mean we may well be coming on to talk about this at a at
01:00:55 be coming on to talk about this at a at a later point and perhaps we can go into it more but um there is no doubt in my mind that the use of Vans the use of um police horses and the um the way in
01:01:06 police horses and the um the way in which um the police reacted I mean I knew one person whose leg was broken in the um in the course of that demonstration so I think he was right to do so and I think he was right to say
01:01:20 do so and I think he was right to say there was a huge amount of discontent and anger over the pole tax and that that should have been taken into account um rather than the police just attacking the demonstration as far as I know that
01:01:32 the demonstration as far as I know that was the main point at which he acted as a media spokesman but I couldn't I couldn't say that categorically but I think that's the one that's probably being referred to here it does say always refused which suggests more than one incident okay well I as I say I
01:01:45 one incident okay well I as I say I can't comment on what the other ones might have been but it would probably have been for similar reasons and I would have supported him in doing this I think it I think this is partly
01:01:56 think it I think this is partly that we need to look at some of these acts not just simply in terms of what the end result is but how they get to the situation that they get to and I think that would be helpful when we're
01:02:12 think that would be helpful when we're discussing them okay thank you and if we could go now to the paragraph below Julie Waton Waton Waton um thank you an aggressive individual who attends most public order events within the London area at such events she
01:02:25 London area at such events she invariably takes control of the S swp contingent and is capable of organizing disruptive action she has recently been to the Forefront at anti-racist
01:02:38 to the Forefront at anti-racist demonstrations where she has taken control of the S WP and anti-nazi League supporters and has antagonized the leadership of the anti-racist alliance
01:02:57 leadership of the anti-racist alliance with her disruptive tactics how well did you know Julie Waton I knew her well I knew Julie very well yeah we were friends for um for many years and she unfortunately died of cancer in when she was quite young about 10 12 years ago
01:03:12 was quite young about 10 12 years ago something like that um I mean again I really do dispute this um this description of her really she was she was a very gregarious person like Chris bamry she was Scottish and they both had
01:03:28 bamry she was Scottish and they both had quite strong Scottish accents and she um and she spoke forcefully she did spoke speak forcefully um but she was not an aggressive person at all she was even
01:03:44 aggressive person at all she was even shorter than I am she was very short she was uh uh somebody who was uh very able organized and she did inv involve herself in a whole number of um demonstrations and other activities um
01:03:56 demonstrations and other activities um but I I just think this description is just is is completely inaccurate when you want to and I think if you asked anybody who knew jie would the first thing that you say about her that she's an aggressive individual they would not
01:04:07 an aggressive individual they would not and of course she also did suffer quite a severe injury at the Welling demonstration for which she did gain compensation from the police um some
01:04:20 compensation from the police um some years some years later so I think no I don't really accept this and and when you talk about she's antagonized the leadership of the anti-racist alliance with her disruptive tactics well actually there was a political difference between her and us and the
01:04:38 difference between her and us and the anti-racist alliance which was about how you combat fascism so I think that's no doubt why if they were antagonized that's why they would have been antagonized rather than for any other reason if I just um stop there and ask one specific question uh Julie Waton receiving
01:04:52 question uh Julie Waton receiving compensation from the police is that something something that you know about firsthand from her it's something that's a matter of record I think that she
01:05:05 a matter of record I think that she received it as a result of the injury that she got some years later but in about 2000 I think I can find I can find the essenti my question is how do how do you know because it's in the public
01:05:16 you know because it's in the public record I I'll I'll find it for you if that's helpful for the inquiry I can I think it might be thank you it would be
01:05:29 think it might be thank you it would be okay thanks and uh secondly is it right that uh as a member of the Central Committee Julie Watson did have Pro a prominent role at anti-racist demonstrations yes that is
01:05:41 anti-racist demonstrations yes that is true that's absolutely true and she was the person who um was Central to the anti-nazi league when it was reestablished in the early 90s and what was her working relationship uh with Mr
01:05:54 relationship uh with Mr bambury it was pretty okay I think they were both um on the the Central Committee they did as I've seen it reported in one of the statements they were saying they were arguing at some sort of demonstration as to whether they should stop at the Bookshop I think it
01:06:09 should stop at the Bookshop I think it was or carry on and I can well believe that because they were both you know they were both that type of character who would be saying no I want to do this and no let's do this but they got on they were friendly they were they got on
01:06:21 they were friendly they were they got on All rights and they work together over a whole range of things so I'm sensing they're both strong personalities who might sometimes have differed but sometimes not yes that's right exactly
01:06:38 sometimes not yes that's right exactly and that they they both had um as I say they were both very good speakers and they were both had strong Scottish accents and all that I don't know whether that means very much to you but people thought that they were kind of quite I don't know that is the Scottish
01:06:54 quite I don't know that is the Scottish sort of thing was always a bit colorful if you like with both of them I see uh thank you uh right at the bottom of the page Wayman Bennett
01:07:11 Bennett um a volatile and autocratic individual who does not tolerate any criticism he is not particularly intelligent his aggressive Nature has enabled him to progress up the party ladder he is seen at most order events in
01:07:26 at most order events in London how does how does that chime with your knowledge well I I have to say I
01:07:39 your knowledge well I I have to say I mean Wayman is you know as I don't know whether you know but is is black and I want I think in particular he's not particularly intelligent he's an intelligent Guy and um uh you know he's been to University he's done all these sort of things so I think that's I don't really think the tone of that is particularly good
01:07:52 tone of that is particularly good again volatile autocratic doesn't tolerate any criticism aggressive nature I mean these are kind of like they're
01:08:03 I mean these are kind of like they're such poor descriptions of people really they're so um they're so lacking any kind of nuance or any sort of yeah I
01:08:15 kind of nuance or any sort of yeah I just I find it hard to really know how to respond to this particular one because I again I don't think if by aggressive nature it's meant that maybe people shout slogans on demonstrations or make militant speeches as he would have done and would do
01:08:27 and would do today um
01:08:30 today um then okay but if that speaks to a whole
01:08:43 then okay but if that speaks to a whole aggressive nature then I would say again no I don't recognize that how would you describe Mr Bennett well I would describe him as somebody who um actually has been campaigning over racism for many many years that's quite a tough thing to do when you're a black person um I would say he does tolerate
01:08:57 person um I would say he does tolerate criticism I would say he um is somebody that uh has been able to play a role in the anti-racist movement for a number of years and that he's somebody who
01:09:10 years and that he's somebody who sometimes I might agree with and sometimes I wouldn't agree with over particular things sometimes you might even have an argument with him but volatile and autocratic doesn't really kind of sum it up for me really
01:09:25 really kind of sum it up for me really so I think I think I would describe him in a very different way from that could we take that document down
01:09:36 that could we take that document down now please uh I want to move now to skag NES now it's right isn't it that the S swp would normally have an annual gathering at skegness and it was an important event in the S swp's annual calendar that's right it happened every Easter it was the darish and miners
01:09:53 Easter it was the darish and miners Holiday Camp which was um notorious for sort of bad food and things like that but people actually went for the weekend got we had lots and lots of meetings that were also social events football
01:10:06 that were also social events football and um entertainment in the bars in the evening and so on so yeah it was an important part of our calendar yeah and U I'll be selective uh into what I take you to but very heavily reported upon
01:10:18 you to but very heavily reported upon absolutely and I mean I don't know why it was so heavily reported on but yes it was let's go to tab B5
01:10:34 [Music] 74701 this is the report of the 1986
01:10:40 event if we could have the next page
01:10:47 please uh and as you've rightly said parag paragraph two records the venue in skes paragraph three the attendance at the rally was comparable to the previous
01:11:01 rally was comparable to the previous year approximately 2,000 being present of whom some 200 were accommodated at the nearby Northshore holiday Center in addition to 12 Iranian refugees there
01:11:14 addition to 12 Iranian refugees there were 15 members of the Socialist Workers movement and several contacts from the Middle East and South Africa who were present at the rally so I think we can take two propositions from this however bad the food it was very popular very large attendance yes and also it was a
01:11:29 large attendance yes and also it was a sort of family attendance so people who might not have been in the S swp but were related to them or friends of them lots of people liked it because it did have and some people went mainly for the social events and mainly so that they
01:11:44 social events and mainly so that they could be with and it had a crush for the children so uh people could spend some time going to meetings or enjoying themselves so yes we'll be very shortly coming back to that theme okay um but the second proposition uh it uh
01:11:57 the second proposition uh it uh attracted people who were not members of the Socialist Workers Party plenty of people who attended not members that's
01:12:08 people who attended not members that's right yeah and so if we um look over the page at paragraphs seven and eight of this
01:12:13 this report appendix a to this report gives a list of those members who presided over meetings during the course of the rally and appendix B contains a list of
01:12:26 and appendix B contains a list of persons who ATT Ed the rally from the London area approximately 590 adults and 72 children were present
01:12:40 590 adults and 72 children were present and if we move to the next page and see appendix
01:12:47 a you feature there about halfway down the page don't you let me have a look yes I do and if we thank you and if we go to page six we see the first page of appendix
01:13:07 B uh this starts with The Barking branch and although we have of course uh redacted a lot of the names to protect people's privacy you can quite clearly
01:13:23 people's privacy you can quite clearly see in the right hand column uh that two of the people on that page are recorded as being infants
01:13:30 do you see that yeah yeah and over the page
01:13:38 again we see more of the same some people who appear to be unidentified or of whom there's no trace or are
01:13:46 or are infants that appears to be the case doesn't it yeah I'm showing you this because as a very senior member of the swp at the time I would like to give you the opportunity to react to the state
01:13:59 the opportunity to react to the state recording uh details of the skes event in such minute detail well I think it's
01:14:11 in such minute detail well I think it's unacceptable I I think this was an event which was quite open which um attracted as I said a lot of people who might not even have been fantastically political or committed to certainly not
01:14:22 or committed to certainly not necessarily committed to the S swp I think it's um it was an intrusion into their um into their personal lives and it was completely unnecessary all that
01:14:33 it was completely unnecessary all that happened at skes was a whole series of meetings some of which were similar to ones reproduced in other um either in districts or Marxism or in any of these
01:14:48 districts or Marxism or in any of these other things they were totally open they weren't subversive they covered a whole range of things Paul for used to come and speak about a whole range of things
01:14:59 and speak about a whole range of things about maybe about Shelly or the poet or about things that really were not even immediately applicable to day-to-day activity they were obviously very very popular people would have there was a debate I remember one year about whether sport would exist under socialism and
01:15:14 sport would exist under socialism and things like that you know so it was a it it was completely unnecessary I think a complete waste of money and of course an intrusion when you do start recording children and infants uh as part of the people attending it but in seed also an
01:15:25 people attending it but in seed also an intrusion on the adults here because we know that some of these names will have been used perhaps in terms of blacklisting and other things like that so yeah I think I think you can say it
01:15:40 so yeah I think I think you can say it was a totally unnecessary and intrusive operation which shouldn't have happened if we could take that down now please and go to 1990 which is tab 14 sir uh
01:15:51 sir uh one88 for the projector
01:16:10 if we orientate ourselves a little bit to 1990 by looking at paragraph two first of
01:16:11 first of all uh
01:16:12 all uh which records that between Friday the 13th and Monday the 16th of April 1990 the Socialist Workers Party S swp held
01:16:25 the Socialist Workers Party S swp held its annual Easter rally at the SK Gess Sands Holiday Camp Roman Banks gages Lincolnshire this event followed its usual format by being a lively mixture
01:16:37 usual format by being a lively mixture of lectures and discussions which were followed although often replaced by a good deal of social activity approximately 3,000 party members and 300 non-member contacts attended the
01:16:54 300 non-member contacts attended the event from all over the country some 45 lectures and discussions were given by about 33 speakers a copy of the full program of events is attached so precisely as you've just described it if we look I'm going to take you to two more paragraphs before the question uh
01:17:06 more paragraphs before the question uh first of all if we could go on the next page to paragraph
01:17:20 s uh these factors reinforce the belief by the party hierarchy that the swp was taking on a new position within the political
01:17:27 political farle uh traditionally disillusion labor party left Wingers often turned to the Communist party as an alternative now however it would appear that with the near collapse of the Communist Party in
01:17:40 near collapse of the Communist Party in the UK the swp is beginning to take over this
01:17:44 this role keeping that in mind over the page to paragraph 10
01:17:55 please in conclusion it can be said that WP members left the weekend rally in a highly excited mood seeing the party as being on the threshold of becoming much
01:18:06 being on the threshold of becoming much larger and with increased importance in the political sphere the vast majority of members felt that the rally had been the most
01:18:13 the most inspiring and enjoyable for many years the picture that's being painted is that this is the end of the Cold War era
01:18:25 era the Communist party is uh fading away and the S swp is able
01:18:36 is uh fading away and the S swp is able to take on a more prominent role on the left of British politics is that an accurate picture was there a post Cold War philli for the swp well we've referred to this a little
01:18:51 swp well we've referred to this a little bit earlier I mean I would say this is a kind of a a bit of a jumble this this sort of thing I mean firstly people do tended to leave sknas in a highly
01:19:04 tended to leave sknas in a highly excited mood I mean it was you know they very much enjoyed it there was a final rally in the on the final morning um and people went off happy and seeing their tasks for the next few months um as
01:19:17 tasks for the next few months um as something that they they wanted to adopt
01:19:28 something that they they wanted to adopt now um this question of the Cold War and people um becoming much larger I think there's two different things here the Communist Party obviously went into rapid decline after the collapse of the Soviet Union and therefore wasn't in a
01:19:40 Soviet Union and therefore wasn't in a position to take many initiatives um it split into all sorts of different ways whether or not um that would have been the case that we then took over from them I think is much more um is much
01:19:53 them I think is much more um is much more unlikely to be the case as I said to you we didn't we benefited to a certain extent from having the analysis that we had on um on Russia and and the Eastern block but not to a massive
01:20:06 Eastern block but not to a massive extent what did happen at that period And in the subsequent years was that whereas when I first joined the swp or is the Communist party was very big it was 30,000 people something like that
01:20:20 was 30,000 people something like that and was was a major force in the trade unions and in other campaigns and therefore trying to get a niche where you could operate in that situation was
01:20:31 you could operate in that situation was much much harder for us by the '90s they didn't present that kind of same they didn't have the same large organization they didn't present the same kind of block to other people being able to do things so in that sense I think um it
01:20:46 things so in that sense I think um it made it easier for the S swp but I don't think it was really that we were in a you know that it was hugely advantageous to us so perhaps maybe they didn't quite get the persp perspective right in this
01:21:00 get the persp perspective right in this report of you know maybe they've they've condensed something there I'm not I'm not quite sure that it's totally accurate if we move back a page to paragraph eight uh please which starts
01:21:11 paragraph eight uh please which starts at the bottom of one page and moves over to the next um pole tax now please throughout the weekend anti-pol tax activity in the current situation in
01:21:23 activity in the current situation in Eastern Europe were frequently discussed both former and informally after the violent antipole tax demonstration in London on the 31st of March uh
01:21:37 31st of March uh 1990 it was commonly felt by S swp members that they would receive a hostile reaction from members of the public as a result of the party's high profile at the demonstration it was the
01:21:52 profile at the demonstration it was the experience of party members that in fact the reverse was true people did not generally see the swp as having organized any of the violence but they believe that the riot resulted
01:22:04 believe that the riot resulted spontaneously from the high level of anger that people felt now this may be a rare example of the S swp and the SDS being on the same page U very rare
01:22:17 page U very rare yeah but I'm I'm not going to I'm not going to bet on it I'm going to give you the chance to uh to comment how accurate is that um well I it's not
01:22:28 how accurate is that um well I it's not quite accurate because actually I don't think we felt that they would receive we would receive a hostile reaction from members of the public as a result of the party's high-profile at the
01:22:41 party's high-profile at the demonstration the second bit is is actually the case that people did understand it and You' you've got to remember that there was this the PO tax demonstration which ended in the riot on the Saturday now the next day David W
01:22:58 the Saturday now the next day David W who was then the Home Secretary tried to do a sort of Walkabout in SoHo um where there was some damage to buildings and so on and tried to you know use that as a means of saying how
01:23:10 know use that as a means of saying how how terrible the thing was and he had to abandon it because so many people just passes by and it wasn't a demonstration started saying to him look you know this is your fault not the and it's because
01:23:22 is your fault not the and it's because of the pole tax and the pole tax was a huge huge issue and uh it was a it caused major demonstrations in every town hall you know in hatney where I
01:23:33 town hall you know in hatney where I lived there was a huge demonstration which actually did end in the riot although I wasn't I was somewhere else in London at the time doing a meeting I had no idea what was happening until I
01:23:46 had no idea what was happening until I got back and saw the estate agent at the end of my road had had their Windows um broken um it was people were very very angry about it because it meant that for many families they were going to be paying three four five times as much for their pole tax as they paid for rates
01:23:59 their pole tax as they paid for rates and people felt it was totally unjust and it was totally unjust you know when they said that the Duke will pay the same as the dustman well people felt no the Duke should be paying more than the
01:24:10 the Duke should be paying more than the dustman for for their local services so I don't think ever it was of course the media and the politicians said this is terrible it can't be allowed to happen
01:24:21 terrible it can't be allowed to happen all the sort of things as they always do after this I think lots of people in ordinary Society felt that it was at least understandable that the pole tax uh had ended in the way that it did and
01:24:34 uh had ended in the way that it did and that there had been that level of RI and it was spontaneous so the second um uh the second part of that paragraph I would agree with but perhaps not the first okay um if we take that down now
01:24:47 first okay um if we take that down now please going to move now to the annual
01:24:59 please going to move now to the annual Marxism event another big date in the S swp calendar wasn't it uh and this was was it a a slightly more cerebral event yes it was although there was a fair amount of socializing went on that
01:25:17 fair amount of socializing went on that but it was a uh an event at a university in London it was uh there were meetings on Marxist theory as well as sort of more popular um meetings on topical things or on history or on all those things yeah um again very heavily
01:25:29 things yeah um again very heavily reported upon I know and and completely unjustified I mean this was a public event anybody could buy a ticket and come to it the idea that there was any need for any kind of undercover policing is just ludicrous really well let's
01:25:42 is just ludicrous really well let's again I'll be have to be selective um but let's go first of all to the 1986 event tab B6 uh 745 542
01:26:06 this is this is uh an an intelligence report which submitted if we go to the the next page please see the covering report it submits the program for Marxism 86 and
01:26:17 submits the program for Marxism 86 and there just a couple of passages in the program I'd like to ask you about please first of all on page seven
01:26:40 um here we're seeing a list of the courses um and there is in the right hand column a section headed 10 questions for socialists um near the bottom uh the penultimate asterisk will we need violence to get
01:27:02 asterisk will we need violence to get socialism um I appreciate that in 1986 this was a long lecture in a nutshell please uh could you give us the answer well the answer I mean the answer to it is that you don't need violence against socialism but you have to be
01:27:15 against socialism but you have to be prepared for the violence of the other side that that was always the way in which we put those particular questions I mean these these questions you know as you say there's a whole list of questions here and that would have been
01:27:28 questions here and that would have been the answer to it that actually socialism is a mass Democratic process from below and that the people who don't like this Mass Democratic process From Below are the people who already hold on to the power and wealth in society and that's
01:27:41 power and wealth in society and that's what we were challenging so that would be in a nutshell how I would answer that question and so as you said before violence might be needed in the moment of Revolution and to prevent a counterrevolution you know with the I
01:27:54 counterrevolution you know with the I don't know if youve um with the October Revolution in Russia it was always said that more people were killed in the
01:28:07 that more people were killed in the filming of eisenstein's October which was about 10 years later then were actually killed in the October Revolution that maybe that may be an exaggeration but not far from an exaggeration it's it's actually the people who then resist what happens with the revolution as they did with the
01:28:21 the revolution as they did with the Civil War in all the intervention from the Western Powers after the re Revolution that makes it makes it such a violent event that was that was generally our position I think it's one
01:28:32 generally our position I think it's one that you could say is is backed up by a whole number of historical examples indeed uh if we could take move on to paragraph So page nine
01:28:45 on to paragraph So page nine please second part of this program um the right hand column within the Box the school students program says that this year we
01:28:56 students program says that this year we are running a special course of meetings for school students and there will be a special school student ticket the ticket which will cost only5 for the weekend will provide entry to other meetings and to evening entertainment the meetings
01:29:11 to evening entertainment the meetings are on what do we mean by Revolution can the labor party bring socialism sexism where does it come from and how can we fight it why we need the Socialist Workers Party can we take it from that
01:29:26 Workers Party can we take it from that that the swp did did seek to bring its message to school age children yes of course but that when you say school age children you be talking about teenagers you won't be talking about obviously
01:29:38 you won't be talking about obviously primary school and was that something not just confined to 18 1986 but generally part of the swp's work well it it varies very much but if you look at the whole um way in which the movements
01:29:54 the whole um way in which the movements developed at different times on a whole range of questions you'll find that at certain times there's a great deal of interest in politics and school students who of course um are politically aware on a on a range of question so yes we
01:30:07 on a on a range of question so yes we did do that but it varied as to whether you felt there was an issue that they would be concerned
01:30:14 about thank you if we take that down and can we now move to 1992 this is B27 19959
01:30:34 if we set the scene by looking at paragraphs 2 and three this is the event was held at the University of London's uh Mallet Street site and
01:30:52 of London's uh Mallet Street site and others uh there are in jly there are a total of 250 lectures given by 160 speakers
01:31:00 speakers uh some 6,000 persons attended the event whether just for a single session the weekend or for the entire week up a thousand on the year before again these
01:31:14 thousand on the year before again these are very popular events aren't they yeah um could we move to page two paragraph six this is a report on the actual proceedings paragraph six racialism
01:31:27 proceedings paragraph six racialism racial issues were given a high profile this year with numerous meetings centered on the role of black people in society the Los Angeles riots gave particular inspiration to the notion that black people were rising up to
01:31:40 that black people were rising up to change the society which had oppressed them for so long the party line stressed the importance of converting that anger
01:32:04 the importance of converting that anger away from White Society and into a class anger against capitalist Society blacks and whites had to be made to unite in order to defeat the system that oppresses
01:32:09 oppresses them how accurate a synopsis of the swp's position on race is
01:32:25 swp's position on race is that well it's I mean it's of the usual kind of I mean the kind of the lack of understanding of the politics it does come out it we would never have said blacks and whites had to be made to unite in order to defeat the system that oppresses and we would say that is what we want to happen but it's up to black
01:32:39 we want to happen but it's up to black and white people to um to fight for that to take place when it comes to the um Los Angeles riots yes we did think that they were they were a symptom of black
01:32:51 they were they were a symptom of black people having been oppressed and still being oppressed in uh United States Society for so long and that they did want to uh rise up but of course we also said and this isn't in the um in the
01:33:06 said and this isn't in the um in the report at all that we believe that riots are a
01:33:10 are a very you know we don't Advocate riots as such we don't believe there are there are particularly um they're a reflection of Oppression inside Society they're not the best way of dealing with oppression in society because they can easily be
01:33:22 in society because they can easily be criminalized and they're not they're not part of an organized response but I mean as Martin Luther King said you know the riot is the is the Cry of the unheard that's that's the phrase that he used um obviously about
01:33:34 phrase that he used um obviously about the riots in the 1960s but it very much applied to the Los Angeles riots as well so and and even as this report stresses it says that we talk about the way in which it shouldn't just be seen as anger
01:33:46 which it shouldn't just be seen as anger against White Society but also about how do you actually challenge the priorities of capital and that's what we were talk talking about who was putting out the message that riots were not the answer
01:34:00 message that riots were not the answer well it was it was always part of our um analysis that we actually said we did we do not criticize the riers in the way that the media might do or that the
01:34:13 that the media might do or that the politicians might do but at the same time we always said they're not the way to actually change society and that's something that we have been very very
01:34:24 something that we have been very very clear about and for example if you look at what happened in the early 1980s one of the arguments we put was that actually the anger from the riot should be channeled into all sorts of other Youth Organization Trade union
01:34:36 other Youth Organization Trade union organization all those kind of things although you have to say even then that those riots did actually achieve
01:34:49 those riots did actually achieve something because you got this scarman inquiry and you got all those things coming out of them but we never saw riots as a kind of a goal for our organization that doesn't and we never obviously had any control over riots as is the case with practically every Riot
01:35:02 is the case with practically every Riot that I've ever read about or heard about and to what extent was there dissent within the swp uh about public disorder were there those who thought that they would help to advance the change that
01:35:20 would help to advance the change that you sought I don't think so as I say I think people were sympathetic for why people rioted very sympathetic and I know uh as I mentioned the one in Hackney that was during the pole tax I wasn't unsympathetic to why they did it but I would have liked it to be more channeled into other forms of
01:35:31 channeled into other forms of organization and I think that was generally not a very controversial view in the S swp I think that's a view that
01:35:45 in the S swp I think that's a view that everybody would have had but at the same time we weren't prepared as we referred to earlier with the PO tax we weren't prepared to condemn people or to say that they were criminals in that kind of way because I didn't I didn't think that was an accurate way of of of talking
01:35:56 was an accurate way of of of talking about the riots either could we move to paragraph eight please this is about the
01:36:13 ANL currently the membership of the ANL is very large with about five nons swp members to every one member uh on the leftwing political Scene It is considered a fashionable thing to join the ANL many of the original members have rejoined in order to take a down
01:36:27 have rejoined in order to take a down memory lanee however the active hardcore is almost exclusively made up of swp members I'm just going to stop there now this is Marxism
01:36:38 this is Marxism 92 so the ANL hasn't been relaunched for all that long by the time this um event takes place is it
01:36:57 time this um event takes place is it broadly accurate uh that the ANL was very large with about five nons swp members to every swp member well it might have been um but of course you've got to look at the different type of membership of these two organizations that the S swp
01:37:11 two organizations that the S swp obviously requireed quite a high level of commitment of paying money of um being involved in activity that was the whole idea of joining the S swp when you talk about the ANL I guess with lots of
01:37:27 talk about the ANL I guess with lots of these members they were were people who signed up to the organization but who see that as maybe going on one demonstration or uh maybe going to a meeting it wouldn't they're not really comparable in terms of the level of activity you expect from people now of
01:37:48 activity you expect from people now of course some people in the ANL would have put in as much activity to any to their activity around this as any um s swp member but many more will have seen themselves um as as supporters of the
01:38:00 themselves um as as supporters of the ANL but not doing things every week or not doing things every month so um I don't know where they got that it's fashionable thing to join the ANL I'm not sure that was that was true but anyway uh was it true that the active hardcore were almost exclusively swp
01:38:13 hardcore were almost exclusively swp members I don't think so there a lot of s swp members were obviously involved in the in the ANL and in many areas they were people who would hold the
01:38:24 were people who would hold the organization together they may be the people who organized the meetings or helped to organize the demonstrations but there were many other people who were very committed Against Racism who didn't want to join the swp but who would have been in the air
01:38:38 would have been in the air now could we take that down now and go to
01:38:39 to 1993 this is tab b38 sir 33975
01:39:04 now when this comes up the first page is actually a slip which we understand as being completed by somebody in the security service commenting upon the SS's report of Marxism
01:39:16 SS's report of Marxism 1993 it starts off well in the bottom left perhaps I should start with the checkbox marking information provided as extreme ly valuable thank you for this full and
01:39:31 valuable thank you for this full and excellent report of particular interest were the sections on membership industry and particularly the party leadership you of course feature uh in the party
01:39:43 course feature uh in the party leadership would you in as a leading member of a revolutionary organization would you accept that you would be of interest to to the security
01:39:58 interest to to the security service well I accepted that there would be um surveillance of socialist organization because it's always happened but I didn't agree with it and didn't think it was the right thing to do um as I've always made clear the S
01:40:14 do um as I've always made clear the S swp was a totally open organization it was a it was not a prescribed organization and I think that the whole way in which the undercover policing operated within it was was completely shocking the number of people involved
01:40:28 shocking the number of people involved in it the attempts to get into the head office the uh deception that went uh that went with it including some really horrific stuff I think it was um I I I'm not surprised that they did this but I
01:40:40 not surprised that they did this but I think it was really an unacceptable way to behave well let's look at some of the detail of the reporting from this particular event um the next page we can orientate
01:40:50 orientate ourselves um it says that um the attendance was again at around
01:41:03 at around 6,000 there were again 250 separate meetings lectures debates and entertainments if we go over the page to page
01:41:11 page three um and I'm interested at the top of that page most of those attending the various meetings represented the same class and ethnic origin as the bulk of
01:41:27 class and ethnic origin as the bulk of the swp I.E white middle class about 10% of the participants were black or Asian 2/3 seem to be in the 18 to 30 age group the remaining third being older I'd just
01:41:40 the remaining third being older I'd just like to give you an opportunity to react to the fact that the attendees at this um academic event were being
01:41:53 being recorded by both class and race and age well
01:42:02 age well it's what it seems to me is that this is just an attempt to try to dismiss the swp as a bunch of white middle class people who didn't attract black or Asian people although
01:42:14 attract black or Asian people although it does recognize there were many young people there I mean I dispute this whole characteristic of the swp as white middle class it had a range of people it was a very workingclass
01:42:28 was a very workingclass organization there were many people not just teachers and people like that but there were many manual workers um there were miners there were all those sorts of people so I don't think it's it's an
01:42:41 of people so I don't think it's it's an accurate thing but it's a it's also I I don't really quite see the point of it to tell the truth I mean what what is this reporting on and what is it trying to say really it doesn't seem to me it's saying very much at all or perhaps you can enlighten me I
01:42:53 all or perhaps you can enlighten me I don't know what point you think I might be missing I don't know at this point in proceedings I want to give you a voice on that issue um and now I'm going to
01:43:04 on that issue um and now I'm going to move to a slightly different issue on the paragraph below paragraph four um this is about the nature of the event
01:43:12 event um and there's a description here of the event and I really want to settle on the bottom half of that paragraph it is also an indic ation of the
01:43:25 an indic ation of the respectability uh of the Marxism event and that's been put in inverted commas as probably the largest revolutionary socialist gathering in Europe that it
01:43:39 socialist gathering in Europe that it was attended by many people who are not members of the swp including several labor members of parliament in a letter on House of Commons paper Tony Ben
01:43:55 on House of Commons paper Tony Ben commends the Marxism event as quote a necessary school for all serious students of socialism would you agree uh with uh the late Tony Ben's
01:44:08 late Tony Ben's description I think Tony Ben was a was a good friend and he came to a lot of uh events there yes I think he's right it's a necessary school for all serious soci students of socialism it's something
01:44:20 students of socialism it's something that although he was always in the labor party and would never have left the labor party in my opinion he um he did understand that the labor party was very often um certainly appeared ideology
01:44:32 often um certainly appeared ideology free and wasn't really interested in education or in history or in learning those kind of things and I think he saw it as an important event um yeah so I
01:44:46 it as an important event um yeah so I would I would agree with him on that if we could take that down could I sorry just before we take it down could I just say about the previous bit about the thing where they say about all the campaigns that have an ax to grind yes I mean that is a pretty
01:44:58 grind yes I mean that is a pretty pejorative isn't it pejorative yes that's exactly the word yes if I took you to every pejorative phrase in the
01:45:09 you to every pejorative phrase in the reporting we'd be here quite a long time but you're quite entitled to ventilate that um if we take that down now please and can we go to a report on the party
01:45:21 and can we go to a report on the party leadership uh that was submitted after the Marxism 199 three event b39 sir
01:45:40 34066 now this say it's um again uh a report which has a security service
01:45:51 report which has a security service um comments slip uh again it's described as extremely valuable if we move to the next page uh we it is a report dated the 5th of August 1993 on leadership if we go over the page there are two descriptions I wish
01:46:06 page there are two descriptions I wish to ask you about the first is the second on the second page about you uh Dr German uh Lindsay German respected for
01:46:18 German uh Lindsay German respected for her grasp of Politics as well as her not insignificant oratorical skills her support report comes mostly from those of the same gender or those particularly concerned
01:46:31 gender or those particularly concerned with women's matters a subject on which she is
01:46:32 she is formidable do you agree with that characterization well I wouldn't like to say about formidable um no I don't think it's true I think the
01:46:44 no I don't think it's true I think the idea that people were mostly concerned with women's matters were the people who supported me I think is not accurate actually were a lot of
01:46:56 is not accurate actually were a lot of um people who were interested in these including some men but also lots of women but um I also did speak on a whole range of other
01:47:07 range of other issues including class and philosophy and history and all those sorts of things so and people either supported me or
01:47:12 or didn't on the basis of that so I think there were Fair number of men who would also have supported me or whatever
01:47:24 also have supported me or whatever supported means you know it's it's not a popularity Contex but who would have appreciated what I said about those things I suppose do you feel pigeonholed by this well I'm yes and I'm not
01:47:36 by this well I'm yes and I'm not entirely surprised given the nature of a lot of the reporting yeah it is it is isn't it it's kind of you know that that's what women do but lots of women do a lot more than that so can we go down to Chris bamry please further down the
01:47:53 page banre speaking skills of improved to such a degree that most comrades now see him as a useful recruiting tool able to influence the masses by the sheer weight of his oratory knowing that his grasp of theory has been considered
01:48:05 grasp of theory has been considered suspect by his comrades in the past he has made strenuous efforts to improve it and written several pamphlets in an attempt to prove it some of the more intellectual members see bamry as a
01:48:19 intellectual members see bamry as a future joint leader whilst yet others favor him as the outright leader originally adopted into into the Central Committee because of his undoubted skill as an organizer of Grassroots activity it is in this area that bambur believes
01:48:34 it is in this area that bambur believes his talents are best developed following the martial Endeavors of tropski
01:48:45 um bambury believes his talents are best developed following the Marshal Endeavors of dropsky is that correct no I mean if if there saying he believes his talents are best developed
01:48:57 talents are best developed intellectually through writing and so on is that what this is trying to say do you well um what I'm interested in is the is a b at the bottom look he he
01:49:09 the is a b at the bottom look he he knows a lot about history including the history of the Red Army and uh uh trotsky's role in that which of course was absolutely Central um he also knows a huge amount about a range of other
01:49:23 a huge amount about a range of other questions and therefore the whole way in which this is put that he somehow suddenly developed these ideas of history and Theory isn't accurate he always had both those sides to him he was always capable of writing he has
01:49:40 was always capable of writing he has written a number of books um and and it says here he wrote the pamphlet so I don't think it's um the
01:49:44 um the trosky Marshall Endeavors is one aspect of what he's interested in but there's a lot you know you can go to the Bookshop down the road and find a lot of stuff on military history it's not unique it's
01:49:58 military history it's not unique it's not unique to him or indeed to the left well if the Apex of tr's Marshal Endeavors were leading the Red Army it started with leading demonstrations on the street didn't it well I don't know how many
01:50:09 it well I don't know how many demonstrations on the streets trosky organized he was in exile for many many years I mean he wasn't you know he went back to Russia in 197 so but by which
01:50:24 back to Russia in 197 so but by which point they've been the first Revolution so I'm not sure his key role was as um was organizing the kind of demonstrations we organized in this country in in conditions of legality so if you think there's a kind of link between maybe he organized a demonstration about shortages of food
01:50:39 demonstration about shortages of food and then managed to lead the Red Army I don't think that's quite the way it worked really I don't think it I mean this is 78s reporting and we can ask 78 I suspect he's he's not alluding to
01:50:50 78 I suspect he's he's not alluding to Leading The Red Army rather leading the WP in demonstrations yes and I know he's referred to this in other places and it's just
01:51:02 it's just simply you know to read back somebody who's interested in clitz who's interested in uh military tactics who's interested obviously politically in Trotsky as well to read back to that what you would do on a demonstration on a particular day in London seems to me
01:51:18 a particular day in London seems to me faral I think he it seems to me that he has some kind of problem with banry which I don't quite know what that's about but maybe you can find that out as well thank you sir would this be a a convenient moment to let the
01:51:31 convenient moment to let the stenographer have a break certainly it would um could my device be set up so that it um shows the transcript thank you 15
01:51:51 minutes
02:06:50 e e
02:07:49 Dr chairman can we resume with the last of the reports about Marxism events that I'd like to take you to this morning it's the document s at tab b54 o24 4 5
02:08:14 347 1995 paragraph two uh for the scene setting approximately 6 and a half th000 registered for Marxism 95 some 30% of whom were not party members sponsored by
02:08:32 whom were not party members sponsored by a total of 57 trade unions is that about right I guess so yeah um what I want to put to you from this report though is
02:08:44 put to you from this report though is the way that the swp's relationship with the ANL is described could we start please on page two at the bottom paragraph 12
02:08:54 reads the swp's main tool against fascism is the anti-nazi league the league was relegated from its usual Center Stage position at Marxism and there are questions being asked openly as to the value of keeping the league
02:09:12 as to the value of keeping the league going the lack of Street activity by the BNP has contributed to the massive drop inl membership over the past 12 months from its peak of 990,000 40,000 of whom paid monthly subscribe itions to the
02:09:25 paid monthly subscribe itions to the league ANL membership has now fallen to an estimated 8,000 stop there is it right that by this stage by the mid90s the threat from the BMP was receding well it was
02:09:37 the BMP was receding well it was receding yes they' closed the Bookshop at Welling and um yes it was receding So that obviously has an effect onl membership and activity and would the sdwp regard
02:09:50 activity and would the sdwp regard itself as having played an important role in chasing the BNP from the streets
02:10:02 role in chasing the BNP from the streets yes we would have done yeah and it would follow would it that that is why ANL membership was declining well I don't know whether this is accurate about it seems to me it's a very big
02:10:10 very big fall
02:10:16 fall um and I don't know this is the report I don't know how accurate it is whether this was uh reported I doubt it at Marxism but I may be wrong um so this may be just on the basis of kind of talking to people in bars rather than
02:10:35 talking to people in bars rather than any sort of official kind of uh uh thing and the ANL has therefore lost its appeal to the S swp as a pool of potential recruits and a source of ready money it's just kind of cynical really
02:10:46 money it's just kind of cynical really that isn't the case that was what I was just about to come I'm sorry my first question my first question is really scen setting and I'm I'm less interested in the precise numbers and the general was it right that membership of the ANL was going down because the BMP were
02:11:00 was going down because the BMP were receding well it would that would be how it worked I mean as I say I can't vou for any figures and I don't know the figures myself but it that would be how any campaign Works whether something big happens then people get more involved and when that for whatever reason moves on then less people get involved as to
02:11:14 on then less people get involved as to the obviously inflammatory next sentence
02:11:24 the obviously inflammatory next sentence the ANL has therefore lost its appeal to the swp as a pool of potential recruits and as a source of ready money goes on the hardcore ofl activists is made up almost exclusively of s swp members if we go on to par
02:11:37 13 several factors militate against a premature winding down of the ANL despite its poor financial State the ANL still has access to funds such as the
02:11:50 still has access to funds such as the proceeds of festivals Etc on which the swp can and
02:12:01 pray taking away the pejorative language the pejorative choice of words did the ANL profit the swp financially in any way not at all it wasn't it was a
02:12:23 way not at all it wasn't it was a totally separate organization its income would have been uh totally separate and there is no way that the NL would have given money to the swp it simply wouldn't have happened there's absolutely no basis for this uh for this allegation and um if you actually look at sorry are you going to ask me more
02:12:36 at sorry are you going to ask me more questions on no you do carry on I I mean I just feel that this is such a distorted view of what will happen it's true that it had it had declined that made absolutely no difference to the S swp's finances one way or the other but
02:12:48 swp's finances one way or the other but I think it's also um the SBP didn't fear it would get a very negative reaction if it closed down the ANL it actually
02:13:00 it closed down the ANL it actually understood that there was still a threat of fascism and therefore it should be kept going in some form and that our members were committed to keeping it to keeping it going so I think this doesn't really do justice to what the any
02:13:11 really do justice to what the any discussion there would have been uh about the ANL and its use and and you can tell I mean you know you describe it
02:13:22 can tell I mean you know you describe it quite rightly as pejorative but it's the whole tone of this all the time that somehow the S swp is trying to get something out of the ANL and to whether it's members whether it's money whether it's any of those things whereas actually the ANL was something that
02:13:35 actually the ANL was something that fighting fascism was something the swp was totally committed to and always always was um and that therefore its commitment was not for its own material game but primarily would be to try to
02:13:46 game but primarily would be to try to defeat or weaken Fascism and that was the point of the operation so it this report just doesn't really understand
02:14:06 report just doesn't really understand that I don't think okay if we take that down now I want to take you through a report about a meeting of the East London branches aggregate it's b32
02:14:08 b32 33345
02:14:19 please um if we move to the next page please
02:14:26 please it's a a meeting which is said to have taken place on Saturday the 24th of October
02:14:33 1992 about 80 people present if we scroll down a little bit we'll see that you are recorded in the first paragraph of text as having been uh
02:14:46 been uh present the second paragraph reads Branch organizers were urged to proliferate the three for me policy to
02:14:58 proliferate the three for me policy to to members I.E each to sell three copies of the newspaper and recruit three new members capitalizing on the present surge of public support for the threatened miners the current emphasis is on building and strengthening the
02:15:10 is on building and strengthening the party in Readiness for the revolution that leaders believe to be approaching did the leadership of the swp at this point in
02:15:21 swp at this point in time communicate to its members that it believed Revolution to be
02:15:29 be approaching no the the the pit closure program which is what this refers to in in the Autumn of 92 did cause a huge
02:15:43 in the Autumn of 92 did cause a huge political upset in society because all the things that arur scar had said during the mining strike were now being seen to be proved right he said they're going to close but all the pits that's exactly what happened and therefore
02:15:58 exactly what happened and therefore there were very very big demonstrations I remember going on two demonstrations one on a weekday and one at a weekend both of which were extremely big with minors and people coming from all over the country but I think it would have been foolish for us to think that was
02:16:10 been foolish for us to think that was anything other than a reaction to the pit closes it could have led to a much bigger um political movement for a whole variety of reasons it didn't I mean it
02:16:22 variety of reasons it didn't I mean it did actually do sort of permanent damage to the Tory government which had not long been reelected but it didn't um it
02:16:33 long been reelected but it didn't um it we certainly didn't think that it was it it meant that we were about to have a revolution that certainly and nobody would have said that so this is more you know embellishment of what actually anybody would have said there were
02:16:47 anybody would have said there were though a number of respects in which the swp was riding high at this period weren't there you you your membership
02:17:02 weren't there you you your membership was relatively High compared to Historic levels there may have been a little bit of a philli from the end of the Cold War you were taking on the
02:17:14 War you were taking on the fascists you were supporting those such as the miners and Industrial disputes we've seen some of the uh reports with the members coming out of meetings on a high not long before
02:17:39 high not long before this was it right though that relatively speaking the swp felt itself to be in a good and strong position at this stage well I think that whenever you have a big movement like the miners um The Campaign against pit closes of course that's a good environment for socialists to be in and that um every social
02:17:53 to be in and that um every social you always want to encourage those sorts of things but I don't think that we um particularly thought this was we thought this was an opening up of politics there were two things that happened that
02:18:04 were two things that happened that Autumn one was the um the collapse of the um exchange rate mechanism and the other was the miners uh demonstration and both of them led to a real decline in support for the Tory government but
02:18:19 in support for the Tory government but of course it h it hung on until 97 so we still had five more years of it it did change the political atmosphere but I wouldn't say in such a way that we were feeling we were about
02:18:31 way that we were feeling we were about to massively recruit and anyway I forget what the figures exactly were that you showed earlier but it we let's say 6,000 or 8,000 members around this time I mean this is hardly a mass organization to
02:18:45 this is hardly a mass organization to tell the truth so I think we would have been quite realistic that that wasn't going to happen and you referred to people coming out of skes but that was in 199 where you said people came out or the report said people came out very
02:18:56 the report said people came out very much inspired but that's I mean that was two years before so I think there was a a much more realistic sense of what was possible and what was likely within the S swp than anything that you get from this
02:19:13 this report okay um we can take that down now um I want to ask you about some of the evidence Mr moris has given us in his witness statement he describes himself as having been a senior ANL organizer for East
02:19:28 for East London um I would like to ask you first of all do you recognize that as a an accurate description of the role he held I don't at all and I I reject the whole notion of it I know absolutely
02:19:40 whole notion of it I know absolutely categorically that Julie Watterson would never have asked him to be a senior organizer she might or might not have asked him to be an organizer but she would never have used that term we didn't talk about senior or organizers
02:19:51 didn't talk about senior or organizers and Junior organizers so that's just I think it's him trying to promote his own role to be honest are you able to help us with what his role within the ANL in East London actually was well I can't
02:20:05 East London actually was well I can't believe it was a particularly Central role after all I I was thinking about
02:20:16 role after all I I was thinking about this he obviously had his own cover job and therefore he wasn't going to be working
02:20:20 working full-time at as an organizer for the ANL and and I don't think there's any suggestion that he was paid to do that so this would have been something where
02:20:32 so this would have been something where presumably he'd be doing things maybe a few nights a week or at weekends maybe going on a demonstration it wouldn't have amounted to more than that so I think he's I think there's a constant tendency from him
02:20:43 tendency from him to embellish and to exaggerate his role in these things and I certainly don't think he played a particularly Central let alone a senior role in e London at the
02:20:52 the time and would you as a member of the Central Committee to have been in a a good position to know well I would know who was involved in organizing and I did know and I still do know some of the
02:21:03 know and I still do know some of the people obviously who were involved in organizing at the time and I also lived not in t hamlets but in Hackney which is where he was uh active a lot of the time so I would have been aware if he'd been
02:21:18 so I would have been aware if he'd been um Central to it or if as he claimed as well that he was very um L with Julie and I don't think um you know I think I would have known that and that wasn't the
02:21:37 the case could we now move to some specific demonstrations and the the first two I want to go to are from the whopping dispute um the first is um 2136 please it's not in the bundle sir
02:21:59 this is a report from the 18th of February
02:22:14 1986 the report does not identify you as present can you recall whether you were present at a demonstration in whopping in February 1986 I can't recall whether I was exactly at this one but I was at a whole number of the demonstrations so I probably was okay at this one when we
02:22:25 probably was okay at this one when we get right when we get into the details we can we maybe I can Enlighten you more yeah okay well if you look at paragraph two
02:22:39 two um this particular demonstration on the 15th involved a March assembling at Tower Hill according to the report of approximately 1,00 supporters of the Socialist Workers student Society
02:23:00 Socialist Workers student Society 30 um members of the ilon branch of the swp had traveled to London with miners from the yorshire area there were a considerable number of militant supporters and anarchists according to the
02:23:08 the report although official trade unionists from the print unions headed the March it was and I'm now reading it is evident that they exercised little or no control over the bulk of the demonstrators which
02:23:23 over the bulk of the demonstrators which principally comprised Representatives of various left-wing factions this was particularly so when the March was confronted by a police Cordon barrier where the print trade unions were quite
02:23:36 where the print trade unions were quite content to stop however the majority of the other Marchers tried to force away through with little thought of any tactical advantage or reasoning in pursuance of this aim during the march swp individuals were instructed to make
02:23:52 swp individuals were instructed to make their way to the front and to attempt to disconnect and pull down the crowd control barriers which had been erected across the roadway to stop the progress of the March having pushed through the
02:24:04 of the March having pushed through the first Cordon of police in the highway it was a success of this dismantling tactic that appeared to cause the first
02:24:17 that appeared to cause the first outbreak of violence in whopping Lane forcing uniform police to advance through the unlined and thereby ineffective bar barers and eventually to deploy
02:24:24 deploy mounted
02:24:28 mounted officers I can skip paragraph e which is about others and go to paragraph F the London swp members were controlled with the use of
02:24:40 the use of stewards excuse me by Paul hbor privacy privacy and privacy who at various stages tried unsuccessfully to liaz with the print Union's leadership as to how the March should be
02:24:51 the March should be conducted first of all does that jog your memory on the question of whether you were there or not not particularly but it because it
02:25:07 not not particularly but it because it deals with a specific number of things that allegedly happened whereas it doesn't talk just about the general thing but um I mean could I make a couple of points about this really about the whole marches because it gives the
02:25:22 the whole marches because it gives the impression that the printers were kind of almost like walk- on you know were passive observers of the of the event and that wasn't the case it wasn't I mean what had happened to those printers
02:25:37 mean what had happened to those printers was 5,000 of them were sacked by uh rert Murdoch the month before they were absolutely devastated and they were determined to try to stop the papers coming out from the Murdoch plant in
02:25:49 coming out from the Murdoch plant in whopping what the dispute was about and they were very active in doing so and if anything um I would say that the printers unions and the printers at the
02:26:04 printers unions and the printers at the time were definitely in control of those demonstrations and definitely were not particularly amable to left groups sometimes I mean sometimes they might have been but quite often they weren't so I think you need to put it in this
02:26:17 so I think you need to put it in this context I think you also need to put it in the context that it talks about you know the attempt to dismantle the barriers caused the first outbreak of violence in whopping Lane
02:26:29 violence in whopping Lane which really doesn't do justice to the role of the policing here because the role of the policing from the very beginning and this again is a matter of record that the role of the policing was to work hand in glove with Murdoch to
02:26:42 to work hand in glove with Murdoch to ensure that the papers were got out that was what they did and it involved the Home Secretary it involved all sorts of people now in that situation to kind of
02:26:53 people now in that situation to kind of say look a month later people moved some barriers and that was the reason there was violence just simply is doesn't do justice to what was going on at the time and to the extremely violent nature of the policing at every demonstration that I went on in
02:27:07 at every demonstration that I went on in whopping that there was it's right isn't it feelings were running high i' would say more than feelings were running High I mean these are 5,000 people who'd lost their jobs and they came on the demonstrations with their wives and families I mean obviously
02:27:18 wives and families I mean obviously there were women PR workers mostly in the clerical but it was overwhelmingly a
02:27:31 the clerical but it was overwhelmingly a male very well organized very wellp paid group of workers and suddenly Murdoch did this to them and they were absolutely they were absolutely devastated by and there was a whole year where we had these demonstrations until eventually they were defeated it's also worth saying at this time I think I'm
02:27:47 worth saying at this time I think I'm right by the time of this demonstration that the funds of the unions have been sequestrated they've been um you know Frozen by the court so they couldn't use their funds for anything as a result of the picketing so they were facing very
02:27:58 the picketing so they were facing very very serious opposition from the courts and from the police can you help us with whether or not on this occasion the crowd control barriers were disconnected and pulled
02:28:11 barriers were disconnected and pulled down I I really don't know I don't know the answer to that because I I don't remember that happening as as I say I'm not absolutely categorical that I was on it but if they were I wouldn't be
02:28:24 it but if they were I wouldn't be absolutely surprised because people were trying to get the to stop the lorries going out that was the aim of the operation that's why they went to whopping twice a week would it surprise
02:28:38 whopping twice a week would it surprise you if s swp members had been instructed to do that it would surprise me if they were instructed to go and dismantle they may well have been said go to the front of the demonstration that's a different thing but to say we're instructing you to take the bar
02:28:50 we're instructing you to take the bar apart sounds a little bit um unlikely and also as it as the point is made in point F that Paul hur's attempts um to liaz with the print Union's leadership
02:29:05 liaz with the print Union's leadership weren't successful as to how the March should be
02:29:06 should be conducted but is such an instruction impossible or might it have happened I can't say it didn't happen but I think it's very
02:29:20 unlikely if we could take that down now please and go to 28727 again not in the bundle sir this is a month later uh a report about a demonstration on the 15th of March
02:29:33 demonstration on the 15th of March 1986 this is a report of hn 95 Stefan
02:29:48 Scott and the material paragraphs are really two and three
02:29:53 um this says that
02:30:02 um there was a March and that uh paragraph C prior to the March lining up privacy informed s swp members to ensure that the group did not become and could
02:30:15 that the group did not become and could not be identified as being isolated from the bulk of the March inferring that something might happen he reminded comrades that whilst they should not be provocative themselves they should be
02:30:26 provocative themselves they should be ready to act and to encourage others to do
02:30:27 do likewise pausing there is that likely to have been the instruction that was given to members of the swp well as I interpret this
02:30:39 the swp well as I interpret this instruction it says comr shouldn't be provocative they should be ready to act and to encourage others to do likewise presumably didn't mean to encourage
02:30:53 presumably didn't mean to encourage other people people to be provocative if we're saying that we don't want to be provocative presumably it was encouraging people to be ready to defend themselves and to stick together and to not get split up and to not get isolated
02:31:06 not get split up and to not get isolated that would be how I would interpret that paragraph which I don't think reflects badly on the S swp at all well essentially can I take it that you're agreeing that that might well have been the instruction given to members I think
02:31:18 the instruction given to members I think it would have been which would have been sensible on any demonstration where you think there's going to be violence and remember you had riot police you had police horses you had all these things all the time you would say to people don't you know stay in a group don't do anything that might get you arrested
02:31:32 anything that might get you arrested don't do anything that might get you into trouble and be careful to look after other people uh now what according to the report then happened D the demolition of the perimeter fence in the vicinity of the main gate appeared to be a
02:31:43 the main gate appeared to be a spontaneous action prompted by a handful of people marching under a chapel Banner thought to be the Joint Chapel liaison
02:31:59 thought to be the Joint Chapel liaison committee Banner made from a white sheet embossed with black lettering the group who began chanting bring it down bring it down bring it down we're quickly joined by other trade unionists and more significantly by a large number of s swp members who
02:32:12 members who coincidentally had arrived on the scene at that time generally being more youthful and possessing a greater feeling of anger the W members quickly provided enthusiasm for the task in hand
02:32:27 provided enthusiasm for the task in hand which resulted in the fence being pulled to the ground are you able to help us with the accuracy of that account well I'd have thought it's
02:32:41 I'd have thought it's only partly accurate in the sense that the chapel Banner which Chapel is the obviously is the Trade union organization in in the print unions um and the the the chapel Banner went and said
02:32:50 said it wanted to tear down the perimeter fence for the reasons that um we've just discussed that uh they wanted to stop the lores going out so this group
02:33:02 the lores going out so this group started chanting bring it down surprise surprise given these reports it then says um a large number of s swp members coincidentally had arrived on the scene so in other words whatever happened it
02:33:15 so in other words whatever happened it happened through the chapel Banner not through the swp who coincidence entally arrived on the scene and would not have been responsible for pulling the fence
02:33:26 been responsible for pulling the fence to the ground because that was already happening as as I understand it from from this even by the the this report itself makes that clear were you at this demonstration I think I was I think I
02:33:41 demonstration I think I was I think I was but I I can't there were so many I don't mean to be difficult about this but there was so many demonstrations and I must have been over the years over the
02:33:58 I must have been over the years over the the course of the year on a whole number of ones um I do remember one with a lot of horses and that might have been in particular that might have been this night I don't know but um it's very difficult to just look at the date and
02:34:10 difficult to just look at the date and then say you were definitely there but I I usually did go on a Saturday night if I was in London if I didn't have anything else that was happening would the swp condemn tearing down the
02:34:18 down the fence I wouldn't have condemned it and I don't think the swp members would either because if you look at what happened this was a a major operation to destroy
02:34:30 this was a a major operation to destroy a union and I think that the unions had the right to defend themselves in in the way that they thought fit and you've got to think that this is something that
02:34:44 to think that this is something that didn't come easily to the print unions they were a militant group of workers but they were also quite respectable very well paid you know all that kind of thing this this wasn't what they did
02:34:55 thing this this wasn't what they did every week was go on demonstrations and that was a new development for them brought about by the attacks of
02:35:02 Murdoch would it in fact be no surprise if s swp members had participated in tearing down the fence there may have been s swp members who participated in it but they would only have done so as a result of other people doing
02:35:13 result of other people doing it uh the report Goes On heartened by this success attempts were made to use the obsolete crowd control barriers as a means of traversing the rolls of razor wire barring their way whilst not a
02:35:26 wire barring their way whilst not a particularly well conceived method it does illustrate the mood of the crowd and their high level of commitment to gain access to the plant when an
02:35:41 gain access to the plant when an opportunity presents itself it was only the sight of the mobilized Riot police that dissuaded the crowd from this course of action even so large numbers
02:35:54 course of action even so large numbers of demonstrators had to be urge to leave the fence and to await a further opportunity for Action is it right that as a general generality that by the time a public order event gets to this level of
02:36:08 order event gets to this level of gravity it takes something like a significant number of Riot police to restore order I don't agree with that in
02:36:20 restore order I don't agree with that in general from the Dem demonstrations that I've been on and the use of the riot police on many of those I would say that in every
02:36:27 in every situation they've exacerbated the problem rather than than dealt with it and we can look at that again in a whole number of different contexts it was true of the pole tax I think it was true of Welling I think it's true of of a great
02:36:43 Welling I think it's true of of a great many of them and I would S suggest that the reason they stopped trying to use the crowd control barriers as a means of Trav versing the roles of razor wire were because as even this report
02:36:54 were because as even this report suggests that wasn't a particularly effective and probably a fairly dangerous thing to do and that's why it
02:37:05 dangerous thing to do and that's why it stopped and this idea of the riot police being the thing that stopped them I think is is just not true the riot police were in there to force them back and to force them off the streets and
02:37:16 and to force them off the streets and that's what they did time and time again and and there's a pattern that develops during the thater years and goes on which is the use of Riot police the use of police horses in very large numbers
02:37:32 of police horses in very large numbers and the consequences of that in terms of creating a situation where you get violence on the demonstration presumably though if the police hadn't been there on this occasion the Striking workers and their supporters would have gained access to
02:37:45 supporters would have gained access to the printing plant well that's what they wanted to do so but anyway there's no question that the police wouldn't have been there we're talking about the nature of the police and the sort of police that were there and what their aim was and their aim time and time
02:37:58 aim was and their aim time and time again as somebody who went on many of these demonstrations was actually to try to attack the demonstrators and to make
02:38:10 to attack the demonstrators and to make it impossible for them to pick it in an effective way and that was again that was a strategy which Murdoch had and Murdoch worked very very closely with the police and the government over this thank you could we take that down now please I want to move to another
02:38:21 now please I want to move to another demonstration now that um was in groer square and then Oxford Street could we have up
02:38:30 have up 18923 please this is another report of hn 95 Stefan
02:38:44 Scots dated the 22nd of April 1986 um if we look on page one briefly to set the scene we can see uh that it
02:38:59 to set the scene we can see uh that it was a demonstration in central London on Saturday the 19th of April 1986 organized by CND in protests at the then recent
02:39:11 CND in protests at the then recent events in Libya and most of that page is about uh
02:39:12 about uh matters in grova square so far as the S swp is concerned paragraph D says it was evident that the majority of
02:39:25 evident that the majority of demonstrators were inclined towards more passive means of protest and were not generally supportive of such s WP inspired chance to burn down and storm the United States Embassy or for the prime minister to be booked into the Grand Hotel at Brighton only by
02:39:37 Grand Hotel at Brighton only by injecting humor into the chance did the swp gain any real support from the bulk
02:39:54 swp gain any real support from the bulk of the demonstrators and eventually the S swp was resigned to such Bal activ ities as exhorting photographers employed on the rooftops to jump uh would um chanting which many might feel was in
02:40:05 um chanting which many might feel was in rather poor taste have been common on an swp supported demonstration I take this is the reference to the Grand Hotel yeah yeah I it wouldn't have been I've never heard that chant on any demonstration I'm not
02:40:20 that chant on any demonstration I'm not saying it never took place but I've I've never heard it and it would be very surprising it's not really a very political chance so it wouldn't have been one that we would have been keen on nor would we have talked we would have chanted to burn down and storm the
02:40:32 chanted to burn down and storm the United States Embassy I mean anybody who's been to the old Embassy in groer square would have known that was a complete impossibility and that you
02:40:47 complete impossibility and that you wouldn't even think about doing it um so I don't really I mean I don't really know where they get that um that idea about people on demonstrations do shout jump sometimes
02:40:59 demonstrations do shout jump sometimes when they see photographers on the roof but that's rather a different you know rather a different category of things might on this occasion there have been some particularly boardy members protesting sorry what members uh particularly
02:41:10 particularly bardy no why would there be I'm just wondering sorry exploring why why it may be that an officer has reported that these things were said well I I'm I
02:41:23 these things were said well I I'm I can't speak for every single person that was on that demonstration but I find it a very odd chant for people to make and I'm pretty certain it wouldn't have been s swp members if anybody made it could we go to the next page
02:41:40 please things move to Oxford Street where according to the report there's a sitdown protest paragraph F says to sit down in Oxford Street afforded the swp an opportunist an opportunity to assemble as a group which they did
02:41:51 assemble as a group which they did outside the main entrance to selfridge's department store under the leadership of privacy and privacy the S swp continued in its vitriolic anti-us and
02:42:04 in its vitriolic anti-us and anti-establishment chants and then if we can go down to I
02:42:13 please although the S swp did not pre-plan any opposition to police tactics nor provide effective directions once the disorder was in progress they did utilize the more passive protesters
02:42:33 did utilize the more passive protesters as fodder and organize the collection of missiles to throw at police the initial confrontation however was more of a spontaneous reaction by likeminded comrades and experienced demonstrators seizing the opportunity to create
02:42:47 seizing the opportunity to create Disorder so the picture being painted by the officer is of a breakdown of disorder missiles being thrown at the police and their having their collection having been organized by members of the
02:43:05 having been organized by members of the swp are you able to help us with whether that is accurate or not I remember this demonstration pretty well actually because it was the um the bombing of Libya by the United States which was facilitated by Britain now this was
02:43:20 facilitated by Britain now this was after a very long period I mean now we talk about bombing much more commonly but in in 86 there hadn't been anything like this for since the Vietnam War really this kind of thing and I was
02:43:31 really this kind of thing and I was amazed at how big the demonstration was I mean it's probably I don't know 10 or 15,000 people just came quite spontaneously at very short notice but the day after it happened as I
02:43:44 the day after it happened as I remembered as it says in this report the S swp was only a very very small part of of this it was a couple hundred people according to this report and that may
02:43:57 according to this report and that may well be accurate um people were very it was organized by CND who um were obviously had been involved in the big protests early in the 80s about cruise missiles and so on but by
02:44:11 about cruise missiles and so on but by 86 there was less activity around that but it it it captured an absolute outrage from people that that the Americans had done this and particularly um I know they bombed
02:44:24 um I know they bombed Gaddafi's uh home and killed one of his children and so there was a lot lot of of real outrage about it um and it went from groer Square to Oxford Street and
02:44:36 from groer Square to Oxford Street and people sat down in the road that's what happened there was a a blockage of Oxford Street people sat down um very near selfes as it described so outside selfes and around that that kind of bit
02:44:49 selfes and around that that kind of bit of it and I remember bus being stuck in the crowd you know it couldn't go forward or back because there were
02:45:00 forward or back because there were people um in front and behind and at the side of it and uh everything else I don't I don't recall it as a particularly it it was a passive resistance if you like it was people sit sitting down which is a long tradition of CND it's a long tradition of other
02:45:11 of CND it's a long tradition of other you know the civil rights movement in the US and so on it's a a long tradition
02:45:22 the US and so on it's a a long tradition and it was that I think that was the the thing that actually was the key to that whole sort of demonstration and the things about the collection of missiles that we organized the collection of missiles to throw at the police just wouldn't have that wouldn't be what we
02:45:39 wouldn't have that wouldn't be what we would do and again it may be that people threw placards sticks or threw placards at the towards the police I've I don't recall that and I don't recall it being like that what I do recall is a mass of people who were absolutely
02:45:52 people who were absolutely in sensed of what what the US had done and in sensed of the role of our government and who saw it as a kind of as it became the sign of more military intervention as we've now had for the
02:46:05 intervention as we've now had for the last 30 or so years I'm taking it from your answer Dr German that you were present I was present yeah yeah uh and would it be right to infer from your answer that you did see some form of
02:46:16 answer that you did see some form of missile throwing blackards and so forth no it wouldn't be right to infer that may have been but I don't recall seeing it which doesn't mean that um you know I I just can't be categorical about that but it was overwhelmingly a peaceful
02:46:30 but it was overwhelmingly a peaceful demonstration I think that's important to underline in this could we go to um paragraph three
02:46:43 please in this particular demonstration the swp will not have had to consider the dangers of substituting itself and will regard Saturday's events as a morale boosting success while cswp does not seek and indeed does not have the
02:47:01 not seek and indeed does not have the necessary authority to instigate violent confrontation it will continue to take advantage of any opportunity that may arise at Future demonstrations the only danger for the S swp is how its activities on Saturday are perceived by The Wider peace movement and it is
02:47:16 The Wider peace movement and it is likely that the swp will find itself more isolated and consequently ly unwelcome at Future demonstrations
02:47:32 unwelcome at Future demonstrations organized by the CND as a member of the Central Committee at the material time can you tell us Dr German whether uh this event soured the relationship between CND and the swp I don't know
02:47:43 between CND and the swp I don't know where this comes from at all I don't remember that the S swp was at all isolated after after the the demonstration um as I've said it was a pretty small part of the demonstration and and my recollection of how people
02:47:59 and and my recollection of how people felt after the demonstration both inside the swp but wider uh in the movement in the peace movement was that people felt that it had been a successful protest and a a big protest and therefore they
02:48:16 and a a big protest and therefore they felt this was something I I don't recall us being particularly criticized at all for it to to the best of my recollection can we take that down now please and I'd like to take you to documents
02:48:25 documents reporting um events which were not violent now the first of those is at tab B10 sir
02:48:51 10173 this is a report dated the 25th of April
02:48:57 April 1989 paragraph 2 with reference to the March and rally at South Hall on the 23rd of April 89 to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the death of the
02:49:13 anniversary of the death of the Socialist Workers Party activist Blair Peach the report then goes on to list members or Associates of the swp identified as being present you
02:49:24 swp identified as being present you feature on that list at the bottom of the page this is a report of hn 90s can you help us with what the atmosphere was like on that occasion um well it was 10 years after
02:49:38 occasion um well it was 10 years after Blair was very was was a friend of mine and obviously a fellow member of uh the swp people were very respectful it people were very sad about it and I
02:49:56 people were very sad about it and I think by that time as well there' been a inside the community in Southall there been a great deal um of wanting to commemorate Blair Peach and in fact there's a primary school in Southold
02:50:07 there's a primary school in Southold that's still named after him um because um he was killed on that day trying to defend people against the fascist so I think it was a um a perfectly normal demonstration
02:50:19 perfectly normal demonstration uh I don't remember any particular incidents that happened at it um it it was just a memorial March really that was the that was the point of it no
02:50:35 was the that was the point of it no disorder is mentioned in the report can I take it from that that there wasn't any well if if maybe for once um we coincide with the me and the report I don't know I I don't remember it and it would have been quite inappropriate it
02:50:50 would have been quite inappropriate it would have been um there would have been Comm Community leaders from South Hall speaking there would have been um all sorts of different people represented there there' be people from the teachers because he was in the teachers union um and I I just think people would have
02:51:03 and I I just think people would have seen it as a memorial rather than rather than any kind of other sort of demonstration what was the likelihood of disorder at this demonstration well doesn't look to me like there was very much at all I'm
02:51:17 like there was very much at all I'm thinking if you were asking yourself the day before is there going to be any disorder at this event well you can't always tell with demonstrations to be perfectly honest but no I would have assumed there wouldn't have been a a great deal
02:51:28 wouldn't have been a a great deal of of uh threat of disorder at that point can we take that down please and go to tab B1 sir 10229
02:51:53 uh this is a report dated the 15th of August
02:51:59 August 1989 um says on the 12th of August 1989 the Socialist Workers Party swp took part in the time too March and Carnival in North London uh would I be right in thinking that the time to go was a reference to the
02:52:13 reference to the government no it would be about Northern Ireland it would it's about Northern Ireland it would be about the troops leaving Northern Ireland I think that would be that would be what I would
02:52:24 would be that would be what I would assume it was and it was in North North London in a Irish area I guess that's what it was thank you uh from approximately 10:30 a.m. demonstrators began arriving at wittington Park Holloway Road And1 19 for the March
02:52:38 Holloway Road And1 19 for the March after a short rally the March consisting of several thousand demonstrators set off at approximately 1 p.m. for the carnival at Finsbury Park the March was good humored and orderly and then the
02:52:51 good humored and orderly and then the report goes on to identify everyone that they could that was present a new feature on that list uh so to State perhaps the obvious the swp most certainly could participate in
02:53:03 certainly could participate in demonstrations that were entirely peaceful well I'd say more than that that most demonstrations that the S swp participated in and do participate in are peaceful and I think it's
02:53:18 are peaceful and I think it's unfortunate that sometimes you know the things that are highlighted here are these ones where there is um some element of disorder and I think it gives a a distorted picture of what the S swp uh stands for and what it does I mean
02:53:32 uh stands for and what it does I mean there are and not just the S swp I mean there are thousands of demonstrations every year most of them don't make the headlines about anything on a whole range of very very useful issues so yes of course it's true we participated in
02:53:46 of course it's true we participated in demonstrations we always set out for our demonstrations to be peaceful and that was uh because if you're bringing large numbers of people together that's what you want to do
02:53:58 you want to do so to reiterate I think when you look at the ones that aren't like this then you begin to see a pattern emerging and that is the pattern of the policing well I wanted to to move on to exploring what the risk factors if I call them that
02:54:10 the risk factors if I call them that might be um would it be right that a tense industrial dispute is more likely
02:54:21 tense industrial dispute is more likely to give rise to disorder than perhaps a commemoration March it might be but I I mean I'm not sure how you can kind of generalize over these things I would say that when you look at where you think there is going to be a problem then very often it is
02:54:41 to be a problem then very often it is because the police are determined on one course of action and this is I think it was very very clear with whopping that this was the case um and I think it was very very very clear with things like Welling I mean there's there's a
02:54:53 Welling I mean there's there's a particular pattern with the police which is that they decide they're going to police in a certain way and that isn't always true with the police I mean there are great many demonstrations where you don't have Riot police where you don't have um that kind of policing and where
02:55:05 have um that kind of policing and where you have a level of cooperation with the police and that is probably what happens with most
02:55:14 with most demonstrations would it be fair to to take what you've said a step further that you may well get trouble where the police are determined on one course of
02:55:26 police are determined on one course of action and the protesters determined on another well that's putting it slightly the wrong way around isn't it because actually if the protesters are
02:55:37 because actually if the protesters are saying we want to do X and they're going from A to B and the police are then saying no we're not going to let you do this or we're not going to let you um succeed in your aim then that is that's the way in which I would put it and I
02:55:53 the way in which I would put it and I don't think you can take the view really that you know you look at these um you know you've highlighted a number of of protests and no doubt will highlight some more and obviously um you know what
02:56:09 some more and obviously um you know what you're saying over some of them is the S swp were there as were lots of other groups and so on the left was there there was also disorder sort of QED well it isn't really QED because the firstly
02:56:20 it isn't really QED because the firstly because most of the demonstrations that we're talking about actually are completely peaceful but also because it's just simply
02:56:32 it's just simply um it it's simply not realistic to look at some of those demonstrations where there was a lot of violence and to and to see that as anything other than aggressive policing and I you know I we talked about in the last tranch about um
02:56:48 talked about in the last tranch about um Blair Peach's actual killing in south or but it's true with a whole number of them and I think that has to be recognized when we're looking at um looking at the policing that's going on and at the role of the undercover
02:57:03 and at the role of the undercover offices and the way in which they tend to always blame it on the swp rather than looking at the wider questions would um a demonstration against the far right be a risk
02:57:17 right be a risk factor well again that depends the the the again there's many demonstrations against the far right where there is no risk factor of violence at all but obviously we know two things about the farri demonstrations one is that the
02:57:29 farri demonstrations one is that the farri themselves are extremely violent and the second is that the um the if you look at most of those the police are
02:57:42 look at most of those the police are usually determined to protect the far right and that's where some of the problems arise so yes but even in those cases there are quite a few demonstrations against the far right where there isn't any violence I'm going to move now to that
02:57:56 violence I'm going to move now to that period in the early 90s when there was a
02:58:07 period in the early 90s when there was a Resurgence of far right activity and The Rebirth of the ANL can we start please with document 30304 again not in the bundle sir uh
02:58:19 30304 again not in the bundle sir uh this is Jean Marie leen's visit visit to London in December
02:58:31 1991 um the report uh is dated the 13th of December about events on the six uh Jean Marie Leen was a farri
02:58:49 six uh Jean Marie Leen was a farri French politician wasn't he um and he has come to London is a attending a dinner and a number of left-wing organizations are reported as having um arranged uh to demonstrate outside the hotel including the Socialist Workers
02:59:03 hotel including the Socialist Workers Party um can you recall this were you there I wasn't at that demonstration but I know it obviously it did take place uh and then it says um at paragraph 4 by
02:59:14 and then it says um at paragraph 4 by 8:30 p.m. what had been a vifer crowd from the start became disorderly after
02:59:25 from the start became disorderly after staging a sitdown in the Strand itself the protesters made their way down to Trafalga Square causing predictable traffic chaos arriving back at the hotel about 9:30 p.m. by this time several of their number had been arrested and there
02:59:43 their number had been arrested and there being no sign of Leen s swp members were urged to make their way to souc Park Road
02:59:44 Road se16 the following morning as it was rumored that Leen would try and do a walkabout they dispersed if we go to paragraph six
03:00:04 now says the apparent low profile taken by the police on this occasion appeared to encourage the swp organizers to escalate the disorder in a crowd already angered by what they saw to be fascist provocation it is estimated that swp
03:00:18 provocation it is estimated that swp members and supporters numbered about 300 and represented perhaps a third of the total number present their organizers were able to influence the
03:00:32 organizers were able to influence the entire crowd mainly because of the very limited presence of police on this occasion a factor which undoubtedly gave them Dutch courage so the officers uh Who provided
03:00:48 courage so the officers uh Who provided the Intelligence on which this report is based seem to have formed the view uh that the swp would take advantage of um inadequate police numbers is that a fair description of
03:01:01 numbers is that a fair description of how the swp would behave well I don't think it's an accurate description of the demonstration as I was aware there were a considerable number of police on
03:01:13 were a considerable number of police on I wasn't on it myself but as I was aware there were a large number of people of police on it and I'd be very surprised
03:01:24 police on it and I'd be very surprised if there weren't given the background I mean there was a lot of uh anger about Leen you know this is the man who had links with fascists you know going back to the vichi regime and the Nazis he was the man who described the Holocaust as
03:01:38 the man who described the Holocaust as and mere detail of History so you know he had some form and people were very worried that the growth of Leen in France would lead to a rise in fascism across Europe which
03:01:53 across Europe which unfortunately uh we are seeing now and I think that was why you got according to this report nearly a thousand people there um and that is why I'm I would be very very surprised if there weren't
03:02:06 very very surprised if there weren't several hundred police there as well and I don't is there any evidence for this other
03:02:13 other than maybe the undercover officer didn't think there were enough police there I don't know I mean they don't seem to have
03:02:15 have any evidence for this and they also Act say that what the protest took the form of was a sit down in the Strand which
03:02:26 of was a sit down in the Strand which caused traffic chaos which again um is a fairly common form of protest and these days is also a for Fairly common form of protest um so I don't quite understand
03:02:39 protest um so I don't quite understand what their uh what their point is here that they
03:02:46 that they um what they appear to be saying is that you need to have very very heavy policing in order to have any demonstration well I think that's that's obviously not the case I mean we have demonstrations in all sorts of um situations on all sorts of issues where
03:03:02 situations on all sorts of issues where there isn't a massive amount of policing and they pass off completely peacefully and there is no problem so I think they're trying to make a case here which doesn't really exist but might the
03:03:14 doesn't really exist but might the distinguishing ingredient here being the particularly inflammatory nature of M leen's
03:03:15 leen's visit why would that sorry why would that be a as you say he's a man with considerable form but but this wasn't a particularly violent demonstration as I
03:03:31 particularly violent demonstration as I understand it reading the report so that doesn't quite fit with it yes but and people were if you like um you know inflamed by Leen and understandably so
03:03:43 inflamed by Leen and understandably so but it it seems to me this was a fairly normal protest at a hotel where he was due to speak and there was a sit down in the road it doesn't seem to me that that turned into anything much bigger than that if we
03:03:57 anything much bigger than that if we could take that down please and put up 172 again not in the bundle sir this is I'm showing you this because it's got comments in a similar vein about
03:04:08 comments in a similar vein about policing it's actually a pole tax uh demonstration report from March 1990 from hn9 who is
03:04:23 report from March 1990 from hn9 who is one of the two officers who informed at the last report paragraph two to scene set on Friday the 9th of March 1990 members of the Socialist Workers Party took part in an antipole tax demonstration outside Lambeth Town Hall aane London sw2 then paragraph
03:04:43 five although the demonstration was reasonably peaceful and good humored until the scheduled end disorder occurred as a result of the actions of the punk type anarchists who went on a March through the center of Brixton
03:04:56 March through the center of Brixton members of the swp and other left-wing factions joined the procession anticipating a confrontation with police however when it became apparent that the police were well organized prepared for
03:05:09 police were well organized prepared for disorder and that they well outnumbered the demonstrators it was only the punk type anarchists who wished to continue with the
03:05:15 with the confrontation the majority of the PR dispersed to the pubs and their homes very few swp members were involved in the violence that followed and again
03:05:26 the violence that followed and again portrays a a picture of police numbers um facing down what would otherwise have been more serious
03:05:48 disorder again is it in fact right that demonstrators on the ground might take an opportunity for disorder if it presented
03:05:53 presented itself no I mean this I think this sort of line of disorder is only stopped because you have lots and lots of police there just simply um isn't the reality
03:06:08 there just simply um isn't the reality for for most demonstrations what what I think happened here if you look at the the uh pole tax demonstrations they varied I mean as I said earlier when I was
03:06:15 was um when I came back back from another part of London I I saw there was one in hatney there were many there were riots all over London and all over other parts of the country about the um about the
03:06:31 of the country about the um about the pole tax um it seems to me this is one that didn't um didn't go in that direction I don't think that would have been because of the police it would have been for a whole number of uh other reasons and
03:06:44 reasons and certainly as it says here most people disperse to the pubs and their homes well you know most people um weren't
03:06:55 well you know most people um weren't involved in the um in any violence that happens and I don't think that's to do with the policing that would be um people will feel that okay they've made their point and they can go they don't feel that they have to stay there so I think that that's how we should look at
03:07:07 think that that's how we should look at that one it doesn't seem to me I I mean I don't think that you can what they be seem to be doing all the time is trying to want to increase the level of policing and saying that's the only
03:07:20 policing and saying that's the only thing that stops demonstrations from being violent but that just simply doesn't match reality and doesn't match history and doesn't match anything we know about these
03:07:33 know about these things can we take that down please uh I want to move now to the relaunch of the ANL could we have up please
03:07:42 33502 sorry this is not in the bundle as well sir
03:07:59 this is a report dated the 18th of December
03:08:08 December 1991 uh it's covering the submission of a copy of party notes uh produced for the week ending the 9th of December 1991 says the notes clearly identify the major projects of the past week and provide information on forthcoming
03:08:27 provide information on forthcoming activities and campaign trends of major interest this week is a relaunching of the anti-nazi league under the leadership of the swp in this connection the party has issued a leaflet copy attached explaining to members what it will entail could we go over the page please
03:08:54 and the leftand column the under the heading antii League relaunched it reads we have to counter the rise of Nazism in Europe and prevent it getting a tow hold here the Leen
03:09:15 it getting a tow hold here the Leen protests and the reaction to our front page met with a real response we have decided to take the initiative by relaunching the anti Nazi League enclosed as a circular that every comrade should read and act on so can I
03:09:28 comrade should read and act on so can I take it from that uh that it was an swp decision to relaunch the ANL yes but if you read further into the um into the the other statement that companies it it makes clear it's an
03:09:42 companies it it makes clear it's an initiative to relaunch it which will then involve other forces and other people so yes it's a but the WP took the initiative to launch it the first time around so yes it was in both cases thank you and if we could zoom out now and
03:09:56 you and if we could zoom out now and just whilst we're here could we look at the next
03:10:02 page um under things they say in the right helem hand
03:10:16 column demonstrat as many carrying socialist worker banners through flower at Mr Leen as he arrived to address a dinner held by by the Western goals Institute um this is a a newsletter isn't it that goes out weekly to members of the
03:10:35 of the swp can I take it from the fact that this is being included in that newsletter that throwing flower at a opposition politician uh is not something that the swp has any quals about uh I guess that's the case and
03:10:48 that's the case and indeed um when I first got involved in politics people regularly threw eggs and flour and things I'm not talking about myself but people did generally in at
03:10:59 myself but people did generally in at election hustings and um this was quite common place and indeed Nigel farage got a milkshake during the election campaign
03:11:14 a milkshake during the election campaign this time which whether you think it's a good thing or not I don't think you can regard it as something that is fundamentally outside of traditional political practice in this
03:11:25 traditional political practice in this country could you take that down please now I'd like to uh move [Music]
03:11:31 [Music] to an early March to Welling um in early 1992 organized by the Roland Adams Family campaign it's the document is 28278 please
03:11:58 26th of February 1992 um the marches to the BNP headquarters in Welling and it's going
03:12:10 headquarters in Welling and it's going to be followed by a rally both the ANL and the S swp are recorded as organizations that were involved numbers attended is said to be
03:12:23 numbers attended is said to be approximately 2,000 and the event had been
03:12:25 been widely um
03:12:28 widely um publicized the first couple of paragraphs uh give us an idea the AR who organized the march in conjunction with
03:12:40 organized the march in conjunction with the rafc made it known in an open letter to
03:12:44 to thep that should any violence occur it would be construed as ANL orchestrated the S swp ANL leadership therefore had instructed their comrades whilst on route to The Venue that the
03:12:57 whilst on route to The Venue that the demonstration should not be allowed to degenerate into a physical conflict as this would only detract from the issues involved and erode future ANL
03:13:09 involved and erode future ANL support were you on this March no in your role as a member of the central committee were you involved in discussions Preparatory to this March
03:13:26 discussions Preparatory to this March not that I recall um no not that I know of why would the AR be writing to the
03:13:37 of why would the AR be writing to the swp um essentially if I paraphrase to put a shot across the swp's ba bows to ensure that the demonstration remained
03:13:44 remained peaceful well that's a question that obviously they would have to um answer and I haven't seen I mean I probably saw at the time but I haven't seen recently
03:13:58 at the time but I haven't seen recently the open letter that they wrote to the S swp um my feeling would be there were a lot of political differences between the AR and the anti-nazi league and the IRA
03:14:12 AR and the anti-nazi league and the IRA in particular when we come on to Welling didn't support Welling and had a separate um demonstration um so the idea that obviously they wanted to
03:14:26 the idea that obviously they wanted to um underline is that I think they wanted to underline that there should be no physical attempt to stop the fascists or anything uh like that and I think the S swp's response to that according to this
03:14:40 swp's response to that according to this report I think is very sensible and what it's saying is we shouldn't allow these political differences to Mar the demonst rtion and we shouldn't allow any
03:14:53 rtion and we shouldn't allow any accusations of physical conflict to get in the way of what should be a United demonstration so I think that's that would be my interpretation of this and quite rightly as this report says as this would only detract from the issues involved and this was after all about a young man who'd been
03:15:05 young man who'd been murdered was there a sense that things were more likely to turn violent if thep were present well I don't think so I mean I know I know this is
03:15:17 mean I know I know this is you know Perhaps Perhaps the the way that you you you want to interpret it or perhaps the way that these um these
03:15:28 perhaps the way that these um these reports want to interpret it to perhaps to justify the level of undercover policing but the truth is that the ANL participated in these demonstrations as part of a wider Collective and the demonstrations didn't degenerate into
03:15:40 demonstrations didn't degenerate into anything at all they were perfectly all right could we move to paragraph two please in the event that marched the largest section of which was made up of ANL swp supporters was in the main
03:15:53 ANL swp supporters was in the main peaceful and the demonstrators remained in good spirits throughout nor were there any obvious overt clashes between the ANL and the AR even though the
03:16:04 the ANL and the AR even though the latter who were in firm control of the organization had banished the ANL swp contingent to the rear of the march from where it was able to take no part in the eventual wreath laying ceremony
03:16:21 how important to the swp was it to respect the wishes of Roland Adams's family well I think we would have done and we wouldn't have we
03:16:35 would have done and we wouldn't have we would obviously have wanted to take part in the refling ceremony but if that's what the family or the organizers didn't want then we would respect that and we it sounds like we were at the back of
03:16:46 it sounds like we were at the back of the March and that's where we stayed and nothing happened happened are you able to assist us with the nature of the relationship
03:16:58 the nature of the relationship between uh the Roland Adams Family campaign and the swp I think our people in the local area
03:17:09 swp I think our people in the local area were involved in the campaign and as far as I know it was perfectly okay the relationship but I know our local organizer down there was involved in the campaign the uh full-time organizer so as far as I know that was that was
03:17:21 as far as I know that was that was fine but I don't think particularly we had a relationship as a National Organization to it thank you uh could we Zoom back to the the document so I can
03:17:35 Zoom back to the the document so I can see the next paragraph that I would like to draw attention to please thank you yeah it's paragraph
03:17:43 three the only Discord noted was in fact between the leaders of the S swp ANL faction I.E Julie Waterson and Chris bambury they were unable to agree on whether the ANL should make a symbolic
03:18:00 whether the ANL should make a symbolic gesture outside the Bookshop it had been decided that their section would halt outside the Bookshop to indulge in several minutes chanting but this was
03:18:17 several minutes chanting but this was subsequently overruled by Waton on the grounds that it might be difficult to control do you have any personal knowledge of uh this recorded agreement no I wasn't on the demonstration but I guess it was a perfectly normal thing that happens on many demonstrations when you make tactical decisions sometimes as you're going along and it sounds like
03:18:30 going along and it sounds like originally uh the idea was that they would stop outside the Bookshop as a symbolic gesture but then it was decided by Julie who looks like in this occasion
03:18:42 by Julie who looks like in this occasion was making the final decision that maybe
03:18:53 was making the final decision that maybe feelings running high and maybe it would be difficult to control and that would go against the agreement about not having any disruption on the demonstration I guess that's what it's about and that makes perfect sense
03:19:07 really thank you we can take that document down now it's right isn't it that the swp gave its support to a number of Justice campaigns didn't it yeah um examples might be the Tottenham 3 Brian dougl Joy Gardner Steven
03:19:18 3 Brian dougl Joy Gardner Steven Lawrence yeah um why did the swp do that well it wasn't unique to the swp I think
03:19:31 well it wasn't unique to the swp I think to a lot of people on the left they were very concerned about obviously the racist murders that were taking place in southeast London and elsewhere but also there were many miscarriages of justice that we felt both in terms of what
03:19:47 that we felt both in terms of what happened in courts and what happened in terms of the police if you take for example Joy Gardner so this was something that we therefore got involved usually locally in Tottenham or in southeast London or wherever it was and
03:20:01 southeast London or wherever it was and we would get involved in the campaign we would support demonstrations for the campaign we would support petitions and all sorts of other things that went on that was the uh the kind of approach we
03:20:18 that was the uh the kind of approach we had what's in it for the swp well it's I I think this whole idea that everything the swp is because it has to have something in it for it is is not right and we always the whole aim of our politics has always been to um campaign
03:20:30 politics has always been to um campaign against issues which we think are wrong whether it's unfairness at work whether it's equal pay whether it's fascism whatever it is those have been the things not because we necessarily get
03:20:44 things not because we necessarily get something out of it in a in a formal way in terms of members or influence or anything else although obviously you hope that you will do that but be because we think that that will advance the cause of the left will advance the
03:21:01 the cause of the left will advance the whole uh idea of socialism will advance all those sorts of things and that is true with the Justice campaigns I I think one of the the things over the last what 30 or 40 years has been a
03:21:12 last what 30 or 40 years has been a number of these Justice campaigns which have been very important and and still continue to resonate as to you know issues like all grieve where there's still uh the inquiry going on you know these are these are issues which I think anybody on the left would see as part of
03:21:34 anybody on the left would see as part of their natural work and that's how we saw them did the reaction of the relatives of the people who were the subject of the Justice campaigns vary of course because I I think it's true to say that in lots of Justice campaigns or in lots of campaigns where people are dealing
03:21:48 of campaigns where people are dealing with personal upset or tragedy sometimes then of course they very often respond very energetically to wanting to find justice but sometimes at certain points they want to do that less or you know they they they decide that they
03:22:03 know they they they decide that they don't want to be as involved politically sometimes they're very friendly to the left sometimes they're not friendly to the left it very it very much depends you know it depends on the individual's concern it depends on what the actual
03:22:20 concern it depends on what the actual issue is and what's the response of the swp in those cases where the family uh or relations or whoever it may be are not so friendly to the S swp well then we have to try to respect those if people don't want the swp involved there's not a huge amount you can do
03:22:34 there's not a huge amount you can do about that but in most cases I think we still would support demonstrations or public events that those campaigns were organizing but obviously wouldn't play a particularly Central role and would try
03:22:46 particularly Central role and would try not to do anything that would in any way be consider received as in any way upsetting the families or creating problems for them thank you so would this be a convenient time to break certain and we'll resume it too thank
03:23:15 you
03:23:45 e e