Afternoon testimony from undercover officer HN56 who infiltrated the British Movement Party (BMP) in Leyton between 1990-1991. The session explores his brief deployment, lack of formal training, concerns about being followed and compromised, and revelations about a former SDS officer attempting to fraudulently obtain cover documents.
00:19:27 e e
00:20:22 I must repeat what I said at the beginning of every long session um anyone in the hearing room may use any mobile ronic device to transmit silently
00:20:36 mobile ronic device to transmit silently to the outside world uh What uh you have seen and heard in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event being described uh has elapsed uh that is supped to fit in with the video stream via YouTube which uh today is Audio Only
00:20:57 via YouTube which uh today is Audio Only uh which is subject to a 10-minute delay you may not use those devices for recording proceedings or taking photographs thank you hm 56 I want to um ask you um now a bit about the time you spent in the back office um some particular
00:21:09 the back office um some particular things from your witness statement can we have up please the statement at page five 5 to6 paragraph 16
00:21:26 please sorry Pages four to five I'm always just one out um paragraph 16 hm 56 yes it's where you
00:21:39 um paragraph 16 hm 56 yes it's where you say there was no formal training which I was asking you questions about earlier and you go on except spending several months in the back office whilst I worked in the back office I attended two meetings of uos each week uh you say
00:21:52 meetings of uos each week uh you say where they took place and you say this these were my opportunity to find out about what it was like for uos
00:22:01 I'll come on to the detail that follows in a
00:22:05 in a moment um that suggests doesn't it that your learning predeployment took part uh took place at least in part through conversations or interactions with the deployed uos during those
00:22:19 with the deployed uos during those meetings I want to say learning hearing about their their experiences and through hearing about their experiences did you learn what it would be like to be an undercover officer deployed in the SS
00:22:33 no not really because they were each individual in in their own groups and they were very very very different but it follows does it that uos would discuss at those meetings what was happening during their deployments would yeah they would
00:22:44 deployments would yeah they would recount stories yes and were those discussions open in the sense of had when everybody was together including the
00:22:54 the managers they may or may not have been if it was I think I understand what you're saying I think if it was relevant to the whole group something but it was generally you know having a coffee in a kitchen or you know breakup generally
00:23:06 kitchen or you know breakup generally those meetings were for the management to question the guys what they've been doing handing in uh paperwork you know to to be made
00:23:18 in uh paperwork you know to to be made into reports and Publications that they may have have got so that was the main purpose of those things but of course there was there were chats and what have you you say in that paragraph that you
00:23:29 you you say in that paragraph that you remember hearing at one of the meetings that one officer off was arrested and nearly
00:23:30 nearly compromised another who was with hunt sabots was hit by a hunter's Whip and roughly handled by a uniform police officer do you see that
00:23:44 officer do you see that yes later in your statement and I'll come to the detail in a moment you describe hearing about John dy's being arrested yes um do are you referring to John dyes
00:23:57 um do are you referring to John dyes there when you say or or others and if others don't tell me who do at the moment I'm not sure if I do or not to be honest
00:24:13 with the officer who was arrested with hunt sabots and hit by a hunter's whip could that have been hn
00:24:22 87 he was deployed amongst hunt I think it it probably was yeah but I don't know if it's it's a long time ago I don't know if for sure but it could only possibly been him I don't
00:24:39 know you say there in that paragraph that you don't recall being told who the story is related to and you were fairly new to the unit do you see that yes does it follow from that that the stories those stories about arrests weren't
00:24:54 those stories about arrests weren't coming from the mouth of the officer who was arrested or do you recall that they were telling their own story
00:25:01 I think in general it's mostly their own stories they were telling so you remember people talking about their own arrests oh yeah their own experiences
00:25:15 arrests oh yeah their own experiences yes and how much of that can you give us an idea how much of the meetings was spent with officers talking about their own deployments in that way just approximately was it most of the meeting no not at all no no small parts I mean
00:25:31 no not at all no no small parts I mean there were other things would be coming the the usual General chitchat between colleagues about trying to take a holiday you know family problems stuff like that other other other issues you know even maybe
00:25:42 other other issues you know even maybe issues with where they were living you know separately if you get what I mean c can I ask you now about the um arrest that you heard about of John dyes in a bit more detail please and can we turn up page 27 of your witness
00:25:53 turn up page 27 of your witness statement to um refresh your memory
00:25:59 paragraph 143
00:26:08 yeah and you say in that paragraph I did hear about John D's arrest but I only knew about it because it occurred when I was working in the back office y he was arrested at a demonstration allegedly beaten up in a police van on the way to the police station he had carried
00:26:20 the police station he had carried marbles to a demonstration and these could be used to roll under the Hooves of police horses so it is not surprising
00:26:32 of police horses so it is not surprising that he was arrested having been stopped by the police I believe Martin gray had to go to the police station to resolve things all of that detail was that detail that you learn from things said in the back office in the sorry meeting the weekly meetings no I was present when John dyes was telling the senior
00:26:46 when John dyes was telling the senior they were questioning him about what had taken place and did that happen in the context of a a group meeting back office back office meeting so he attended the back office did he on his own rather
00:26:59 back office did he on his own rather than with all the other officers yes and he was speaking to the managers about his arrest yeah and they they were questioning him about what what had taken place and you were present I was to hear what was being said yes and that's how you learned this detail
00:27:13 yes you say there that it was not surprising that he was arrested yeah is
00:27:23 surprising that he was arrested yeah is that because he was carrying marbles for the purpose that you set out there yeah I mean yes did he say that was the purpose for which he was carrying marbles is that where you've got that from
00:27:26 from no he didn't say say that no he didn't say that no so where have you got that idea from I got that idea because as you said
00:27:35 said before he was out for martydom you know he was he wanted to be a gold you
00:27:46 a gold you know a gold star SS officer and what did carrying marbles to roll under horses hooves have to do with being a gold St get arrested because you may not have been arrested and charged so you formed the view that he wanted to be arrested
00:27:58 the view that he wanted to be arrested yep and wanted to be charged and wanted to be beaten up as well and why did you form that view what was your basis I just got the impression I I I the injuries that he sustained
00:28:10 injuries that he sustained um in my mind were not consistent with having been beaten up in the back of a police
00:28:17 police F do you in other words they was self-inflicted in my opinion so are you suggesting you didn't believe him when he said he'd been beaten up in the police fan no I didn't believe him no what what what might motivate him
00:28:35 motivate him to lie about that would it be a star why would that make him a star and and in whose
00:28:37 whose eyes oh you know why would it uh notoriety I suppose but amongst who amongst his fellow undercover officers I'm not
00:28:49 fellow undercover officers I'm not really sure no much wider than that I would have thought amongst his Target group so to speak the people on whom I would that I wouldn't know but I would say among in in special branch
00:29:01 in special branch perhaps so you didn't take seriously the suggestion that the uniformed or arresting police officers might have beaten him up on the way back to the police station the the injuries I witnessed on his face did not resemble uh being battered what injuries do you
00:29:13 uh being battered what injuries do you recall him having to his face more sort of grazing and and skin being rubbed off um no no no bruising as
00:29:33 such we know from other records that he was arrested at the PO tax demonstration do you know how um soon after the event you saw him no I in the
00:29:50 office you say that you believe Martin gray had to go to the police station to resolve things what do you mean by to resolve things to disclose who who who who had been arrested do you know that to have happened or is that your
00:30:02 to have happened or is that your assumption that that's in this case I don't know what
00:30:08 happened did you hear uh discussion at any point of the fact that when he was arrested on this occasion John dyes had given not his
00:30:21 occasion John dyes had given not his usual cover identity name John Barker but a second false name Wayne kadigan my don't know heard that
00:30:32 kadigan my don't know heard that before were you aware of any officer John D or any other of your contemporaries having a second false identity certainly not no are you surprised I'm trying to think why know
00:30:44 surprised I'm trying to think why know excuse me but I just I don't get it why why not well I just can't see the point in it why I don't get it why not unless unless he was arrested
00:30:55 why not unless unless he was arrested with somebody and he's he's trying to impress the person he's with saying you know so he's not giving his name he's giving another name maybe
00:31:06 his name he's giving another name maybe that I don't know but but not a practice that you were familiar with whilst in the SDS well getting arrested wasn't a practice I was familiar with either to be
00:31:18 be honest the provision of a second name to use on arrest not something that you heard about never heard of it before what was the reaction of the managers as far as you were able to see and hear to the fact that John dyes had Tak marbles to the
00:31:35 demonstration unwise I think be the best way to I could categorize it as in they thought it was an unwise thing for him he should have known better do you remember them saying that to him that's your forming of view
00:31:49 to him that's your forming of view that's that's the impression I got yeah did they berate him did they tell him verbally not in front of me I don't know whether they did or not but certainly not when I was there was there any discussion with him on
00:32:03 was there any discussion with him on that occasion in your hearing or any discussion more generally that you recall about the concept of an officer acting as as an Azon provocator so encouraging others to
00:32:15 provocator so encouraging others to commit crimes certainly not no I mean it would be contrary to the role of a police officer but was that discussed with you specifically as an SDS officer
00:32:26 with you specifically as an SDS officer that it would be contrary to the role of a police officer didn't need to it's quite it's obvious
00:32:39 did you um hear any discussion with John dyes or about John dyes in connection with having to appear in court or anything like that no I don't recall no so confined to the arrest sorry confined to his arrest and the circumstan no I hav
00:32:52 his arrest and the circumstan no I hav heard I didn't after that time I never heard any more about it did you speak with him directly about it no
00:32:58 it no any reason why not
00:33:03 not um no
00:33:06 um no just it
00:33:09 just it just no just no reason to talk to him about it you know I'd heard all about it if you you get what I mean and he was doing his thing and I'm doing mine so you know we might meet up as I said
00:33:25 you know we might meet up as I said twice a week but that's it just thinking because at that stage when you overhear this conversation you're in the back office it your chance to learn about being an undercover officer isn't it so I just wondered if you took an interest in the subject of an officer being
00:33:36 in the subject of an officer being arrested and what to do as a result of that well yeah I took more than interest I was astounded by it and and the fact that he should you know be found going equipped you know just ridiculous and
00:33:48 equipped you know just ridiculous and did you discuss the fact that you were astounded did that cause you to discuss it with your managers to say is this what's expected of me is this no because I know it's not it wasn't expected of you
00:33:58 you so you had no discussion further discussion with the managers about it not I recall no the meetings that you attended putting to one side hearing about John
00:34:09 putting to one side hearing about John D's arrest can I ask was there talk by serving undercover officers in the field about individuals who they were reporting on or
00:34:22 reporting on or targeting well during a meeting that we we yeah so during the weekly meetings when officers might talk about their own deployments do you recall mention of prominent individuals for example by
00:34:41 name no I don't can we call up please on the screen MPS 07 37160 page four
00:35:03 just so that you understand what you're looking at hm 56 these are notes taken by police officers from operation sparkler which was investigating an incident uh involving improvised incend devices at deham stores you don't to
00:35:14 devices at deham stores you don't to worry about that too much but so police officers conducting an investigation went to speak to hn 109 so the detective inspector who was the first detective inspector oh yeah got you
00:35:26 inspector oh yeah got you y and can we focus in please about 2/3 of the way down where the number 71 um
00:35:43 appears and the notes of this U meeting with hm 109 recalled that he stated that he was unaware of any relationships between activists and uos however there had been jokes made about high standards of Intelligence being gained from quote horizontal politics end
00:35:54 politics end quote do you recall jokes being made about high standards of Intelligence being gained from horizontal politics or anything of the sort no
00:36:07 sort no never any jokes to the effect that having one interpretation of that might be that having a a sexual relationship
00:36:21 be that having a a sexual relationship with somebody would lead to uh gaining good intelligence anything of that nature discussed in your hearing no are you sure about that 100% to be fair to because hm 109 has also
00:36:33 to be fair to because hm 109 has also given a witness statement to the inquiry he says that's not about relationships between officers and activists but about activists having sex with other activists do you understand do you did you hear anything to that effect
00:36:48 you hear anything to that effect no um going back to the document it records him saying that the other standing joke was that a particular named female there was not very attractive do you remember hearing about that individual being spoken about during the
00:37:00 during the meetings I I wouldn't know because um I I wouldn't be able to separate the too I I know the name but do you remember it being mentioned at the meetings no not
00:37:14 being mentioned at the meetings no not partic no do you remember any supposed or so-called joke to that effect no were you aware that at the time that
00:37:26 no were you aware that at the time that you joined the unit John dyes was having a relationship in his cover identity with that individual no certainly not no are you sure there weren't jokes about it because it was generally known that
00:37:38 it because it was generally known that that's what he was doing certainly not no way
00:37:53 no can you give us a flavor of the nature of the discussions that would be had at the meeting so you've told us a part of the meetings might involve officers talking about their deployments was there also an informal side to the meetings chat about work rather than family life yeah yeah sure you
00:38:07 family life yeah yeah sure you know the usual chitchat you know who's going to take promotion what you going to do when you leave who's coming on who's coming on who's going off because
00:38:18 who's coming on who's going off because there was a there was a general turnover um yeah just a general off they call it general office talk was any of that chat ever about women
00:38:37 unless it was a police officer no you know might get a new boss or something any what might be termed bardy or L language used by the officers not in the slightest what about when the meetings took place at a pub did that change the nature of the
00:38:51 nature of the discussions in that sense well you mean well with regards to women or yes for example with regards to women was there more likely to be no LW chat about women no anything of that nature no so you never heard anything of that nature
00:39:02 never heard anything of that nature whilst you not I can recall no I would have been I would have been astounded if I had you would have been astounded if you
00:39:10 you had are you suggesting that the use of sexist language was not something that you would have come across in the Metropolitan Police Service in the late 80s early '
00:39:22 80s early ' 90s if it would have done it would have been
00:39:26 been challenged would you have challenged it I certainly would yes do you think your colleagues regarded you as somebody who would challenge that
00:39:39 you as somebody who would challenge that sort of behavior sorry do you think your colleagues regarded you as somebody who would challenge that sort of behavior yes very much
00:39:44 so um you also say in your statement that whilst you're in the back office you processed reports that's how it's expressed what what did that involve
00:39:56 expressed what what did that involve processing reports to be honest you get you get names mentioned in reports and sometimes they may have had files Especial files so you you'd look up the the file reference and that would be
00:40:08 the file reference and that would be included in in the in the in the report they may have just had mentions so and you put that in the report for the typist to include at the end of that report so whoever's reading it knows what to refer to or back to or to minut it on to did you ever remove any
00:40:20 it on to did you ever remove any substance any intelligence from the report that had been submitted by the officer I'm sorry what what do you mean
00:40:32 officer I'm sorry what what do you mean by so a report you received a report in the back office presumably created originally by one of the deployed officers
00:40:34 officers yeah the processing that you refer to would it ever have involved removing any of the content of what the officer had reported what say for example did you ever make a judgment about whether the officer had properly included any
00:40:48 officer had properly included any information in the report or did you simply put forward exactly what the officer put forward exactly what the officer had said and other than file references did you ever add anything to the reports certainly
00:41:00 the reports certainly not as far as you were aware whether carried out by you or anybody else in the office was any assessment ever conducted as to whether the language that the officer had used was appropriate or not in their
00:41:13 appropriate or not in their reporting no never I mean this the standard of of specialized report was was you were trained in it from first your first day in special Grant as a
00:41:26 your first day in special Grant as a format to those reports as a you know as a typical report language that's used what about an assessment of whether the information that was being reported
00:41:38 the information that was being reported had a legitimate policing purpose so was of use to the police or not was any assessment being made of
00:41:45 that in the back office yeah um
00:41:48 um uh well it wouldn't have been reported on in in my opinion if it wasn't of use there's nothing to say if it's not of use to Let's let's say the commissioner
00:41:59 use to Let's let's say the commissioner of police then there's no point sticking it in the report but no assessment was made in the back office to see whether other officers had abided by that
00:42:10 approach no because it it just wouldn't need needed to be to to be have done they wouldn't write report they wouldn't bother putting pen to paper if what they're writing about is of no use so as
00:42:25 they're writing about is of no use so as far as you were concerned if the officer had decided it deserved to be written down yeah it was going to be WR down yeah
00:42:30 yeah can I ask just before we leave the the topic um of discussions and meetings that we look please at paragraph 57 of your witness statement page
00:42:51 12 this is about the meetings once you were deployed but whilst I'm on the topic of
00:42:52 topic of meetings you say there the bi-weekly meetings were an opportunity to put in my WR reports and if necessary to discuss their contents in Greater depth with management yes can you give us an
00:43:03 with management yes can you give us an idea of how common it was for officers based on your experience to discuss the contents of their reports in Greater
00:43:14 contents of their reports in Greater depth with management was that a regular thing or an exception to the norm I I I really don't know Ian I can only sort of site examples of where it was
00:43:27 was perhaps if there was a demonstration going to
00:43:29 going to happen then you know there would be a big discussion about it with with the management you know what what what you know for example are they going to get more information are you going to be able to get more or is this it or if you
00:43:43 able to get more or is this it or if you if you go if you follow me well right so exploring whether there was more to be had from the intelligence that you were reporting more to be get more to be had or would it become more accurate you know for the day were you ever tasked in those
00:43:54 day were you ever tasked in those meetings to seek out particular intell
00:44:01 well I wasn't uh
00:44:11 well no it was just a normal thing I mean if you went somewhere with your group then you're going to report on it generally if there's something to report on can we have a look at paragraph 58 please of your statement on a similar
00:44:25 please of your statement on a similar topic you're still um talking about the meetings yeah
00:44:39 meetings yeah um so you say an informal start and then the Chief Inspector would then lead the meeting and hand out police orders to read and update the group generally there would not be any public announcements about tasking because the SDS operated on a need to know basis and such matters would be dealt with by a private meeting after the general meeting yeah um two aspects to explore
00:44:51 meeting yeah um two aspects to explore there if I may what what your reference to police orders to read and update the group generally what what are you referring to there can you give us an idea publication that came out twice a week uh it it would tell you about new
00:45:02 week uh it it would tell you about new legislation it would tell you about who joined the police who died in the police who'd retired
00:45:14 who'd retired um and those were handed out to you at the meetings yes you had to read them yeah do you have to read them on the spot and you well you w get another chance they' be taken away so you were expected to read them yep and then secondly you say um you
00:45:28 yep and then secondly you say um you refer there to matters uh being dealt with by private meeting after the general meeting how common was it for officers based on your observations and your experience to meet privately with
00:45:40 privately with managers I I really I couldn't give you a figure I just did it seem exceptional when it happened or did it seem routine well sometimes you would't even know it's happening you might be as I
00:45:54 know it's happening you might be as I said in one room having a coffee chat to somebody and this discussion could be taking place in the teach or something you wouldn't you wouldn't know they would you know it wasn't like don't nobody you know shut the door nobody come in we're having a meet you know we're having a very private discussion
00:46:07 we're having a very private discussion so not that private but but off to one side yeah but I mean if you saw the Chief Inspector and this inspector chat to one of your colleagues you you know you just didn't go and stick your nose in type thing do you remember there
00:46:18 in type thing do you remember there being more private meetings with some officers as opposed to others are you able to give any they certainly had more meetings than I did for example because the lack of product so you know quite
00:46:31 the lack of product so you know quite possibly I may have noticed that others were well it depends if if there was a something as I said something going on like a a demonstration was coming up or uh something you
00:46:42 uh something you know something that needed to be opposed by a group or something yeah that that would be discussed priv you suggesting or or amongst the group well well it depends if there was tasking you know if if you get what I
00:46:57 mean sorry I'm going to check the transcripts I missed there was tasking so you would expect tasking to lead to a private meeting no not necessarily it it it it we in the branch we working sort of
00:47:13 it we in the branch we working sort of silos you know even if on the squad like this desk here wouldn't talk to that desk over there but they would I have coffee together but they would tell each other what they're doing it was just to keep it so there was if there was a leak it it could only come from a certain
00:47:25 it it could only come from a certain area but there was some discussion of what people were doing on their deployment when the gr was all together yes yes yes I mean we get a visit from a senior officer some sometimes and they' want to know what we did they go around the rooms then what do you do yeah I
00:47:36 the rooms then what do you do yeah I think you say in your statement I'll just turn it up that whilst you were there you recall one visit from the deputy assistant commissioner yeah I think uh would have been Peter felen at that stage no does that about no
00:47:50 that stage no does that about no no no no it wasn't Peter F I know him quite well so but from a senior officer above
00:48:00 above yeah quite yeah quite who was it in fact it wouldn't have been a he was not a special bance officer at the time but he might have been come one might have come in you know sort of level transfer because he knew nothing about us I think you just said you remember visits from
00:48:11 you just said you remember visits from senior officers who would ask questions about what you were doing yes they would ask because I didn't know anything about it when you say they didn't know anything about it are you basing that on
00:48:27 anything about it are you basing that on your interactions with them when you met them what's that based on based on that they didn't know we existed but how are you able to say that about somebody else whether or not they knew the SDS
00:48:39 existed I guess by their surprise what we did if if if they knew what we if they knew if they had known that we existed they would have known what we' done were doing so it's based on that they seemed surprised to be finding out what you were doing yeah and so the
00:48:50 what you were doing yeah and so the visit that you recall from the senior officer you recall that officer asking the field officers questions about they were doing in the
00:49:02 were doing in the field no not so much that what group you were in so they were they were asking questions about the groups officers were deployed into yes what what yeah
00:49:15 yeah I you mentioned just before I move off of that you the the phrase you use in your witness statement is that the senior officer stayed for a cup of tea and heard the weekly report yes what does the weekly report mean that context General discussion yeah well what you what have you been doing this week hn
00:49:27 what have you been doing this week hn whatever and what have you been doing and what have you been doing and and that would come out you know and you might produce your leaflets or your newspaper and stuff like that yeah but
00:49:39 newspaper and stuff like that yeah but does it follow from that phrase weekly report that at each of these meetings there would be a sort of round robin where each officer would say this is roughly what I've been doing each week this week only if they had something to
00:49:57 say and by something to say do you mean a specific event or stand out event this or this happened um might this happen include an arrest for example was that discussed well if that had have been we'd have known about it
00:50:08 had have been we'd have known about it yes can I move um away from the weekly meetings now please I'm going to move towards your actual deployment but uh starting with the very beginning uh and asking you some questions about your cover accommodation yes can we look
00:50:21 cover accommodation yes can we look please at par page nine of your witness statement paragraph 39
00:50:35 and you explained there that your landlords at your cover accommodation were a Jewish
00:50:41 Family yeah when you chose that cover accommodation were you aware that you were going to deploy into the BMP yes and you were aware presumably that amongst the views expressed by the BMP
00:50:57 amongst the views expressed by the BMP um were and are to the extent they exist anti-semitic yes did you consider that there was any risk to the family in you a professed supporter of the BMP living in their
00:51:10 in their premises uh no because only I knew that they were
00:51:20 Jewish you um did you tell them that you were a BMP supporter I didn't tell them I was a police officer either no so they didn't understand that in your cover identity you were a supporter of the BMP no certainly
00:51:34 not were you aware of the of the fact that they were Jewish from the outset when you rented the property or did that become clear to you after you'd made the decision it became I I had to I used to go and pay rent and stuff and
00:51:50 go and pay rent and stuff and I I think I was there for a meal as well they they were very you know very kind people and offered me you know what you're doing and oh would you like to come from me for meal so you had some social interaction
00:52:04 they came to the flat I had a problem one day and they came and fixed it and did it occur to you at any stage then that they might be at risk of of some sort of harm no if those you were associating with in the BMP came to understand that that they they wouldn't there was no way they could come to
00:52:15 there was no way they could come to understand that my landlord was Jewish why do you say that since it it became obvious to you it became obvious to me because I I went to their
00:52:31 because I I went to their house you um in your witness statement you mention um elsewhere not in this paragraph and I think you said it earlier that two um members of the BMP came to your cover address yes after you applied to be a member yes did you
00:52:44 applied to be a member yes did you consider any risk arose from their being at the
00:52:50 at the address what to the landlord you yes no I didn't consider that at all do you think there was a risk no why not there's no way they could link the two they didn't know who who might landlord was you say in this paragraph on the
00:53:03 was you say in this paragraph on the screen paragraph 39 that a manager came to look at the flat and agreed it was suitable yeah um again no name just a cipher yeah which manager was it the choices you have from the managers
00:53:18 choices you have from the managers you've told us about so far are hn 109 hn 86 or Martin gray
00:53:26 um I I think it was h86 I you say that later on in your statement you say he visited you once to check up on you is that the same visit same same one visit yeah the whole thing yeah and and why did you
00:53:39 yeah and and why did you understand that hn 86 was coming to check on when you in your cover address I at the time I didn't I didn't really know what what he was up to it became apparent
00:53:57 to it became apparent later when did it become apparent when they asked me to do something stupid right so towards the end of your deployment yeah and um we'll come back to the end of your deployment um in more detail later um but why did you when you
00:54:11 detail later um but why did you when you did realize what what did you understand was the purpose of hn 86 coming to your cover address then to make sure I was telling the truth about my deployment what about your deployment well where I lived what I did where I was going who I knew and stuff like that did you
00:54:25 knew and stuff like that did you understand that sort of check to be something that was carried out routinely for all officers certainly not no I didn't I I I don't think it was although it might have been for him if you get what I mean not for the guys they maybe
00:54:40 what I mean not for the guys they maybe he'd done it before um I don't know but it wasn't I didn't think it was a
00:54:48 routine when hn 86 visited uh your cover flat y are you able to say whether hn 86 appreciated that you were renting from a Jewish Family
00:55:01 no I don't think it was mentioned I there was no need to mention it really I'm going to move on then to your deployment um proper firstly um your
00:55:15 deployment um proper firstly um your specific tasking um can we look please at page 11 of your witness statement paragraph
00:55:20 48 actually sorry can we start with paragraph 50 on that page
00:55:35 and and you say there hm 56 that you had significant discretion in how you operated throughout your deployment yes did that discretion extend to what you reported on so it was in your discretion what
00:55:46 on so it was in your discretion what made its way into your written report
00:55:57 well I suppose it must have yes
00:56:04 but you would have reported on anything really that was was going on that was of interest to the police if we have a look at paragraph 48 which is uh where I was
00:56:18 at paragraph 48 which is uh where I was going to start you do say that I was not specifically tasked to do anything or provide particular
00:56:25 information and then a bit later on it was left to my common sense and judgment as an experience special Branch officer yeah so is that accurate in terms of how you understood what it was you were expected to report or not to report on
00:56:37 expected to report or not to report on yes I'd say so yeah you also say there that was unlike the special Branch generally where the direction was set by senior special Branch officers Etc so the amount of discretion you had about
00:56:48 the amount of discretion you had about what to do and what to report was much greater was it on the SDS than in your usual special Branch work
00:57:08 could you repeat the question again yes was the amount of discretion you had as an SDS officer yeah in terms of what to report and how to go about your task greater than the amount of discretion
00:57:23 greater than the amount of discretion you had as a special Branch officer more widely uh yes in in in ways yes in in what ways well things that may not have been of
00:57:31 been of interest
00:57:34 interest um well on on a desk you you have not you're not just looking at one F you're not focused just on one thing you might have numerous organizations to look
00:57:47 have numerous organizations to look at but in the SDS how does that mean you had more discretion in the SDS rather than less yes I I I think so yeah yeah H how how is it that you have more question well because you were there although you know you
00:58:08 uh you reported on whatever you felt needed reporting on rather than this this and
00:58:10 this and this can I just ask you to look at another bit of your statement to see how these things fit together paragraph 55 on page 12
00:58:23 please um you say there you repeat my deployment was mostly exercising my own discretion whilst I was deployed but then you say I did not report on any
00:58:36 then you say I did not report on any matters that I had not been specifically tasked to obtain Intelligence on which which seems slightly at odds with the idea that what you reported was at your own discretion which is the correct no I don't well I don't think it's odds I just
00:58:55 think I reported on on on the unit that I was operating in and there
00:59:00 was
00:59:12 um yeah I'm I'm sorry I'm trying to think of something which which would come to my notice which wasn't specifically required I I really can't think of anything at the moment all
00:59:24 think of anything at the moment all right so as far as you were concerned when you say specifically tasked to obtain Intelligence on do you mean your understanding was that you were tasked to retain Intelligence on the BMP in L rather than something more
00:59:35 more detailed but if if it had come to my knowledge I would have reported on it whe whether or not someone had asked you for it yeah quite yeah say it was worth
00:59:47 for it yeah quite yeah say it was worth repor say somebody else had visited from another unit you know and made themselves known say we've been in the pub oh this is so and so from from chingford you mentioned earlier then I
01:00:00 chingford you mentioned earlier then I would have would have made a note of it and it would have been reported on and that was your decision rather than anybody else's oh very much so yes did you ever get any feedback from your managers about whether the contents of your reports were considered to be useful or not useful um no not
01:00:19 really you describe in your witness statement that um you started your deployment off by um going to a L most evenings which was considered to be the local for members of your target
01:00:31 local for members of your target group and then after some time you applied two members of the target group came to your flat that you describe that that um
01:00:43 flat that you describe that that um episode of two BMP members coming to your flat as a sort of unofficial vetting visit is that a fair description of it if I call it
01:00:54 that I I don't I wouldn't have thought so to be honest no what did you understand the purpose of that visit to
01:01:06 understand the purpose of that visit to be there uh to to see who I was and and to to see where I lived I suppose did you feel prepared for that to have members of your target group turning up at your cover address well certainly I thought after I put in the application yes can we have a look at some of your
01:01:17 yes can we have a look at some of your early reporting um on the group yeah um if we start you submitted three reports dated the 7th of August of 199 90 which
01:01:32 dated the 7th of August of 199 90 which could appear to be the earliest reports can we start with um ucpi 0
01:01:34 ucpi 0 [Music]
01:01:36 [Music] 22203 that is your C2
01:01:55 sir all right and you there are privacy redactions over names and identifying details hm 56 but you reported on a name is an active member of the eping forest unit of the BMP regularly participates
01:02:07 unit of the BMP regularly participates in the Saturday morning Street sales of BMP Publications at the Broadway Debon and assists in the weekly canvasing and leafleting of the local area and then you went on to describe his employment his self-employment the details of his van and a physical description of
01:02:29 him can I ask what was the purp Pur of reporting the van registration details and the physical description of the person um the purpose is because it's a van that can carry people and what significance does that have um well when they attended other
01:02:40 have um well when they attended other demonstrations and things like that if you saw the van the van would have been noted it would have been you know
01:02:54 noted it would have been you know possibly I I would hope would' be given out to other possibly P officers from the desk so if they saw the that van they know where it come from and and possibly contained more than just one
01:03:00 one person might they not have known that aam would contain more than one person just by looking at it go into that demonstration could we take that down and have a look please at ucpi 0
01:03:13 and have a look please at ucpi 0 22204 it's your C3 uh please sir
01:03:39 um same date hm 56 you um appear to have submitted um an article a photocopied article from the July edition of the British
01:03:44 British nationalist uh paragraph three sets out what the article States in
01:03:50 summary and then you add some information about this individual's decision to leave the United Kingdom um and his um views and relationships in connection with a wife of a foreign
01:04:11 nationality the first part of the report the reporting on an article in the paper that that was information that could have been obtained otherwise than through an undercover officer wasn't it
01:04:34 sorry did I miss sorry what was the question the article from the edition of the British nationalist that was information wasn't it that could have been obtained without the use of an undercover officer simply by obtaining
01:04:46 undercover officer simply by obtaining the publication quite the second part of the report which comments on uh this individual's decision to leave the United Kingdom is that information that you
01:04:52 you obtained through others I have noide directly I have no idea and and I have to say I do not recall this at all looking at it now the nature of the
01:05:07 all looking at it now the nature of the information reported in paragraphs four and five what did you understand to be the S of purpose or the utility of that to the police of that sort of information
01:05:38 I have no idea I I actually don't recall this report right whether or not you recall it y bearing in mind what you said about it being up to individual SD officers to
01:05:50 it being up to individual SD officers to decide to make decisions about the worth of the information C can you discern any utility in this information now to the well only the fact that he's leaving
01:06:04 well only the fact that he's leaving perhaps and somebody's going to have to fill his
01:06:10 position can we take that down that's that's just two examples out of three reports dated the 7th of August of 1990 so we take it from that that you were deployed and in the field by August certainly to have been able to submit
01:06:31 certainly to have been able to submit reports mhm um there's then a gap in the report located by the inquiry until the 16th of October of 1990 so a gap of about 2 months between your first uh set of reports and your next one um in your witness statement you say that Gap is explicable by the fact that
01:06:43 that Gap is explicable by the fact that there was a period of inactivity at the BMP in Lon do you recall I I don't I I I let's I can't give you an explanation for that all right let's put up your witness statement please page 16 paragraph 17
01:07:06 6 and we'll come to the report but you say I've been shown a report dated the 16th of October 1990 there was a gap between my reporting because there was a period of inactivity in the BMP at Lon at that time there was no intelligence to report during this time I remained
01:07:20 to report during this time I remained undercover and developed my Legend do you see that yep so nothing worth reporting appears to have been happening between August and October of 1990 and as a result you didn't submit
01:07:33 1990 and as a result you didn't submit any written reports is that that's your explanation for The Gap is that right I would say so yeah I'd agree with that was it already clear to you by this period between August and October that
01:07:45 period between August and October that you had deployed into a moribund branch of the BMP very much so did you discuss
01:07:57 of the BMP very much so did you discuss that with your managers and say I appear to be in a place where nothing much is happening there were there were discussions right from the beginning in that you know as I as we spoke
01:08:14 that you know as I as we spoke about with buying the newspaper and and not filling in the application to join the party whereas you know they said well we we don't want you to do
01:08:24 well we we don't want you to do that uh but specifically with regard to the fact that you were deployed into a let's call it a branch of the BMP you want of a better word a branch where nothing much seemed to be happening was there any discussion specifically about that and whether that was the right place for you to be for a long-term undercover deployment no no was
01:08:54 not can I ask please that we um look um at um a document briefly it's ucpi
01:09:00 03699 so it's your
01:09:13 B10 and this is another one of those notes hm 56 recording a visit between SDS managers and the security service do you follow and this one taking place on the 18th of
01:09:27 one taking place on the 18th of September 1990 so during that Gap in your
01:09:37 reporting and if we look at paragraph uh four yeah regarding Under The Heading British national party F2 which is a reference to Security Service Personnel F2 suggesting that the 1990 list of
01:09:48 F2 suggesting that the 1990 list of registered branches and groups might be of help to the SDS I gave them the sanitized version at Annex C for possible assistance with their new BMP agent hm
01:10:03 their new BMP agent hm 56 do you recall seeking out assistance of that nature or being provided with assistance of that nature no did you consider that you needed assistance in terms of identifying branches or groups of the BMP no because it was the decision of
01:10:15 BMP no because it was the decision of the management as to where I would be best placed it was not a decision for
01:10:27 best placed it was not a decision for me so was that information passed on to you as far as you can recall no it certainly was not can we turn then please to the next report that you submitted which is dated the 16th of October 1990 it's ucpi
01:10:42 the 16th of October 1990 it's ucpi 02220 five it's your C4 sir in the hard copy
01:10:56 bundle and this is your report hm 56 on the national rally that took part part excuse me took place at limes Farm Hall in
01:11:02 in heel um in October
01:11:11 1990 y if we have a look please we start at paragraph four I just want to ask you a number of questions about the contents
01:11:22 a number of questions about the contents of this report y um so you reported that um the meeting commenced at 3:30 was chaired by Dave Bruce who was the national organizer and gave the opening address and we see him explaining about halfway down the paragraph three locations had been prepared for this
01:11:35 locations had been prepared for this year's rally as they expected that as in past years attempts would be made to sabotage their Arrangements in the event he said that the more Central locations had been indeed sabotaged as was more or less expected and thankfully their
01:11:47 less expected and thankfully their forward planning in providing for a third now allowed the rally to proceed
01:11:58 had you been aware in advance that the plans for this meeting had involved the possibility of three locations no if you had been presumably it's information that might have been useful to the
01:12:09 that might have been useful to the police and you would have reported
01:12:18 it well only that it might stop them wasting their time if they chose to cover that location in case of
01:12:29 trouble hey Al in Essex was quite close to your deployment in La wasn't it if you say so was it just a coincidence that the national rally took place close to where you were deployed that year as far as you were
01:12:46 concerned could you say can you ask that question again please yes was it just a coincidence so what we're looking at here is a report of the national rally of the BMP so a national party-wide event by the looks of it it says 350 people Ed Y and it took
01:12:58 people Ed Y and it took place in relative National terms just around the corner from where you were deployed more I see I see was that just a coincidence that you more more of a more to do with Dave Bruce who didn't
01:13:10 more to do with Dave Bruce who didn't live too didn't live too far away either so it it was it was convenient for the national CH whatever you want National organizer understood you probably knew that area far better than everybody else but you didn't know when you deployed
01:13:24 but you didn't know when you deployed that that was going happen I went to I went to these locations one after the other
01:13:25 other so I said that again you went to those locations the only way you could arrive at number three was by going to number one number two and then every time you turned up and said no it's not here go there so you got back in your car and
01:13:37 there so you got back in your car and you went there and they said no it's not here go there so you didn't know when you were going to get there if it was going to be there or not understood so you ended up here by following through the route yes that the BMP directed you
01:13:53 the route yes that the BMP directed you to yes can we zoom out please and have a look at some of what the speakers said uh paragraph six on the next page
01:14:02 please um this is uh the East Midlands organizer
01:14:09 speaking and about almost halfway down the paragraph it says this he then reported difficulties with the police who he now said seemed no longer impartial and were actively engaged in disrupting BM BMP activities in his
01:14:27 disrupting BM BMP activities in his region mhm their explanation he said was that in their opinion the bmp's only objective was to quote wind up the ethnics end quote an opinion he said which showed a total disregard of the real message of the BNP love of your own country and people first he lamented The
01:14:42 country and people first he lamented The Taking of sides by the police especially he said as they had taken the wrong side so the the implication of what was being said by the BMP at this National
01:14:57 being said by the BMP at this National rally was that the police had previously been perhaps less willing to intervene in the activities of the far right groups like The BMP but there had been a change of attitude to what extent did you agree that what he was saying was accurate from your point of view in the metropolitan
01:15:10 metropolitan police I have no idea I I had no experience of the police dealing with the
01:15:18 the BMP at
01:15:22 BMP at all based on your own personal experience of serving in the metropolitan police had you discerned a change of attitude within the police moving from perhaps more sympathetic to the right wi to less
01:15:33 the right wi to less sympathetic uh no because I wouldn't have noticed I I was not in a general police environment I was in special Branch right well special Branch was
01:15:46 Branch right well special Branch was concerned with political groups wasn't it yes did you discern any change of attitude within special Branch I wasn't dealing with uh the rightwing or fascism in
01:15:57 with uh the rightwing or fascism in special R so I could not comment on that I'm
01:15:58 I'm afraid did you uh do you agree with what was said by the BMP there that there was a lack of
01:16:05 a lack of impartiality amongst the police when it came to policing right-wing groups like The
01:16:12 BMP I have no idea I'm sorry I
01:16:20 don't just looking at the aims of the group and the nature of the group um their ethos as it's expressed there as love of your own country and people first it was white nationalism white
01:16:32 first it was white nationalism white supremacy wasn't it in essence I I think so
01:16:33 so yes and you say in your witness statement you don't think their aims were
01:16:38 were subversive I don't think they they knew what the word meant to be honest whether or not they knew what word to use they you didn't take them to be about
01:16:52 you didn't take them to be about subverting the Parliamentary democratic system they were in fact engaging in some elections weren't they local election around that time yes but you in your statement you described them as criminal um their aims were criminal and likely to lead to public disorder
01:17:09 likely to lead to public disorder yes the ethos of white nationalism white supremacy was that an ethos that found favor to your knowledge with any of your colleagues in the Metropolitan Police Service no not at all within the SDS
01:17:28 Service no not at all within the SDS certainly not was there any sympathy as far as you could discern for the view expressed here by the BMP that the police were taking the wrong side by policing groups like The BMP or taking an interest in them no not at
01:17:43 them no not at all can we look at paragraph s uh please the next speaker is listed there as Tony Wells yeah did you know Tony Wells By Any
01:17:57 yeah did you know Tony Wells By Any Other Name no no did you know or suspect that he might be identical with Tony Loma who was Deputy later Deputy leader of the BMP no were you aware of any involvement in criminality by this
01:18:08 involvement in criminality by this individual no it's the first time I ever saw him I never saw him
01:18:14 again can we have a look please at the next paragraph paragraph
01:18:25 8 uh we see the speaker there is uh named just wait wait for it to stop moving it's
01:18:36 okay thank you we see a speaker Steve Smith described as having recently stood in the byelection for Park ward in the London bough of tower hamlets
01:18:44 y it describes himself as having previously been involved um with the national front were you conscious of reporting um on individuals however abor their views might have seemed who were taking part
01:19:03 might have seemed who were taking part in the Democratic process by standing in byelections in what way I'm sorry did you consider it permissible to be reporting on activities of individuals who were engaged in trying to be elected yes I did because um they would draw
01:19:15 yes I did because um they would draw opposition and often that that would be violent and was that just because it was a
01:19:25 a BMP um candidate or would it would have been because it was well I mean would it have applied say to somebody standing to be a member of parliament for the conservative or the labor party no not at all no so it was
01:19:41 labor party no not at all no so it was because he was associated with the BMP and the BMP attracted um violent opposition and used violence themselves yes apparently so
01:19:53 yes you reported um on his uh the speech that he made um it's about a third of the way in you say this you see he then sneeringly spat out the following personal
01:20:06 personal observations of the decline you see that I do know
01:20:12 I do know yeah and what he went on to say was um explicitly racist stuff
01:20:24 yes a bit further down the speaker Steve Smith said uh stated that obviously a large proportion of the police understood the sentiments if not supported the BMP did you understand the sentiments that he was expressing no not in the slightest did
01:20:38 expressing no not in the slightest did you have the impression that any of your colleagues in the Metropolitan Police Service understood or sympathized with the
01:20:43 the sentiments no not at all were you ever aware of any fellow Metropolitan Police Service officers being members of the BMP
01:21:02 I don't know if they were a member of the BMP I
01:21:04 the BMP I remember a magazine and on the front of the magazine they definitely weren't they definitely were not um
01:21:17 definitely were not um BMP um it was a magazine and and people were in
01:21:20 were in uniform and one of them was a police officer at my police station and bu a magazine do you mean a magazine from a far-right group yes it was definitely a far-right group yeah
01:21:31 was definitely a far-right group yeah and was that just a coincidence that you recognized well he was he was a colleague and I think he may have brought the magazine in and I I I then remember he got swifted off sorry he was
01:21:46 remember he got swifted off sorry he was picked up taken away and was that before you were in special Branch oh yeah long time yeah and what was the General reaction amongst colleagues to him bringing in a magazine in which he appeared
01:22:01 appeared as a member of a far-right group well I just thought it I thought it was a bit sort of childish parading around in uniforms thinking it was some sort of legitimate organization group type thing I don't think it was any sort of political
01:22:17 political um stance taken on it other than you know
01:22:27 just was a word for it but the stupidity really I just couldn't see the point in it so no abhorrence no distaste expressed for the fact of his involvement in a in a farri group well I don't think anybody really understood
01:22:40 don't think anybody really understood that you know the the either leftwing or right-wing politics at that sort of level you know anything beyond the conservative in the labor you might as well forget it you would have understood though wouldn't you that something like the British national party or the national front or groups
01:22:53 national front or groups associated with them were considered to be far right wouldn't you not not not when I first joined in the police no I knew nothing about them in special Branch certainly that was understood wasn't it well not everywhere no if you
01:23:06 wasn't it well not everywhere no if you had no dealings like I I told you I had no dealings with the national front before I was placed on SGS I I couldn't have told you anything about them whatsoever you you couldn't have identified them as a group on the far right of the political
01:23:22 Spectrum probably but not I couldn't if You' have said what would I stand for I couldn't tell you um turning back to this uh
01:23:33 um turning back to this uh speaker um having said that um his view was that a large proportion of the police understood sentiments if not supported the BMP he went on as follows if these officers did not soon cast off their uniforms and throw in their lot
01:23:45 their uniforms and throw in their lot with the BMP and join in the struggle for racial Purity they would find themselves the targets of BMP Roth when it finally achieved power a hypothesis which was greeted by almost deafening
01:24:07 which was greeted by almost deafening agreement in the form of Applause by the audience you were sitting in that rally at that meeting in your cover identity but in your real identity you were yourself a police officer yeah how how did you feel sitting through that I got up and applauded and how how did I feel how did you feel I just thought it was a ridiculous statement did you feel at
01:24:19 ridiculous statement did you feel at risk at all what in the event that they realized you were a police officer sorry in the event that they were to realize that you were a police officer
01:24:32 that you were a police officer infiltrating them yeah did you think there would be any risk to you sure yeah did you discuss that with your managers at any
01:24:43 managers at any stage no I think that's general for anybody infiltrating any of the organizations that we did on SGS not just
01:24:52 just me but even an organization that was expressing themselves that the or saying that police would find themselves targets of BMP Roth when it finally achieved power that didn't give you additional cuse for concern no not
01:25:19 really you say and we could take that down you say in your witness statement that you recall being asked on one occasion if you would be interested in standing as a candidate in the local elections do you recall that yes I do do you remember when in your deployment that happened whether it the beginning
01:25:31 that happened whether it the beginning or the end uh to put it into context for you I used to read the Times while I sat in the pub and became known as that guy
01:25:45 in the pub and became known as that guy that reads the Times SAT on that chair I sat in the same place read the Times they thought I was a bit of an intellectual and hence I might be able to understand what was going on in the local Council and that is the only reason that my name popped up when that was discussed with
01:25:57 when that was discussed with you um did you talk to your managers about it I mentioned it yes and what was their reaction we all had a good giggle why cuz it wasn't going to
01:26:08 giggle why cuz it wasn't going to happen what would you have done if you had been invited with some seriousness or some serious intent would laughed to be a candidate it wasn't going to happen no way did you see
01:26:21 no way did you see any reason particular reason reason not to accept that invitation in your cover role yes of course I'd have been lying the whole thing would have been a
01:26:34 the whole thing would have been a lie and that was a view you understood to be shared by your managers was it yes indeed it it was a risk wasn't it being deployed into a group like the BMP which
01:26:45 deployed into a group like the BMP which was standing candidates in election that you might find yourself in that position I don't think they were at the time in fact no I don't think anybody knew what they were going to be doing well we've just seen I don't I don't
01:26:58 well we've just seen I don't I don't know whether they actually did it anyway I don't recall them ever putting up a candidate where I was well we've just seen a speaker at the national rally Steve Smith who had stood as in a byelection in Tower Hamlet yeah I do big a when they were talking about the council talking about Lon not anywhere
01:27:13 council talking about Lon not anywhere else it wasn't anywhere else that we're talking about but you didn't know that Lam was going to be a Mor abund Branch before you deployed into it so there was a risk wasn't there that you would deploy into a branch that would actively look to field candidates and might a
01:27:33 look to field candidates and might a light upon you um I think it's a heck of a jump to be honest no I mean it's that that never came up so you didn't anticipate that certainly not
01:27:44 no can we sorry just go back um to the report I'm sorry I asked you to take it down prematurely it's ucpi 02220 five just one more question hm 56 about the contents of that report MH
01:27:58 can we go straight to page five paragraph 12
01:28:11 please and this is part um of a speech by uh sorry can we go up up to the beginning of the paragraph of 12 sorry my fault the party chairman John Tindle yeah um gives the fin final uh
01:28:32 Speech thank you and can we go to the next
01:28:34 next page so towards the bottom of paragraph 12 and towards the end the last um couple of sentences
01:28:48 end the last um couple of sentences Tindle said that sir Peter imbert was no more than a puppet dancing to the tune of the British Board of deputies that's a Jewish organization isn't it
01:28:54 isn't it um he said that inber having recently
01:29:02 um he said that inber having recently been summoned to appear before the board later stated that he would quote wipe racism off the streets end quote by racism Tindle said he means us the BMP was the direction set by saeter imbert as set out
01:29:14 imbert as set out there to your understanding was it was it to wipe racism off the streets which included the BMP I I have no idea I I don't know what subed in but said I
01:29:33 don't know what subed in but said I certainly don't know what his intentions were thank you can we take that down please and can we pull up um ucpi 02226 it's at your C6 sir um h56 this is your um report on the March and rally
01:29:46 your um report on the March and rally that took place in bethnal Green under the slogan rights for whites in November of
01:29:55 of 1990 do you recall how you came to be an attendance at this March I think so I think one of the members said you know there's going to be a March you come
01:30:07 be a March you come in so invited to come along Yeah by someone in Lon Branch yes in your witness statement you say that what you did on this occasion was to March along and hang around yes is
01:30:18 to March along and hang around yes is that a fair summary of what you did yes did you have any cause to have to avoid getting involved in violence disorder on this date uh no I didn't have to avoid it I watched it but I didn't have to
01:30:31 it I watched it but I didn't have to avoid it yeah I think you say in your witness statement you saw um someone from the BMP punching an individual um associated with a leftwing organization yes and you didn't report
01:30:44 organization yes and you didn't report that here in your Rich sorry to the to the police at the time I didn't need well um if I could explain how it went
01:30:55 well um if I could explain how it went there was a a whole group of left left wing whoever they were and there was they were covered by uniform police officers and this BMP person I don't know his name I presumed he was in the BMP I've never met him before never seen him before or
01:31:06 met him before never seen him before or after was talking to a police constable and every time this police Constable turned away he just punched some in the crowd like that behind his back so there was no point in me trying to report it I I presumed that the person in the
01:31:19 it I I presumed that the person in the crowd would have said to the police of he just punched me in the head but you but I didn't see any action being being taken by the cons right but you were a police officer who'd witnessed a crime in effect yes indeed
01:31:34 witnessed a crime in effect yes indeed yes and so your evidence might have been useful had there been a prosecution for example yes it might have been yes but you didn't think that you ought to report that no because to make it known that you were there witness the may have been a crime I mean whether it was a common assault an actual bodily harm or Grievous bodily harm I could not
01:31:47 Grievous bodily harm I could not tell but whatever the crime was isn't really the point is at hm 56 the point is that you were a police officer yes witnessing what appeared to be a crime what appeared to be a crime yes and you might have useful and reliable evidence
01:31:59 might have useful and reliable evidence to give if there were a prosecution yes but you didn't consider that it was part of your role to make that I did consider it and why did you choose not to well
01:32:14 it and why did you choose not to well because there was no specific evidence I saw what I saw and I couldn't see any activity by the police cable so therefore I presumed that the person had not made a complaint and so the fact the lack of a complaint affected your well not only
01:32:28 complaint affected your well not only the lack of the complaint I didn't see who he'd hit you know you're talking about maybe 50 meters away I didn't see
01:32:41 about maybe 50 meters away I didn't see who he hit I just could see him throwing a you know a straight right uh and I couldn't see who he' hit there was certainly no interaction with the policeman so I said I thought well
01:32:51 policeman so I said I thought well there's no complainant if you had been a uniformed officer in attendance at that event would you have taken a different approach yes of course I'd have gone around and had words with a conable for a kickoff you know and then tried to find in whoever was in the crowd if they've been injured so a as a deployed
01:33:02 they've been injured so a as a deployed undercover officer with the SDS would it be fair to say you saw yourself in quite a different role from a police officer not undercover to a certain point yes
01:33:14 not undercover to a certain point yes and one of those points might be not to involve yourself if you saw what appeared to be a crime of that nature being
01:33:19 being committed to a to to a degree yes was there any sense amongst the SDS when you were part of it that that as undercover officers You Were Somehow above or
01:33:34 officers You Were Somehow above or beyond the usual rules or the usual laws and principles that applied to police officers no not at all I just think you know you had more considerations than if you'd been in
01:33:48 you'd been in uniform or indeed you know an ordinary uh special BR officer could we just scroll down on this report and leaflet's attached to it and can we have a look please at page four of the
01:34:03 leaflet page four which is the leaflet I should
01:34:08 should say and can we scroll up we see issued by national headquarters so it's a leaflet about the March that was to take place on November the 24th if we just scroll up Scroll up Scroll up please scroll thank you we see it was issued from a PO Box a post office box in
01:34:20 from a PO Box a post office box in Welling in Kent did you become aware during your deployment that there was a BMP um Center headquarters Bookshop whatever you might want to call it
01:34:35 whatever you might want to call it situated in Welling no you didn't become aware of that or its activities at all
01:34:49 no thank you can we take that down and can we look uh now please at MPS 0743 944 it's C5 so
01:35:08 and I want to ask you to look at this please h56 as an example of um it's got telephone message at the top you see it's from purports to be from uh the detective Chief Inspector of the SDS uh Mr Gray to the chief superintendent of cquad dated 23rd of November
01:35:25 cquad dated 23rd of November 1990 and it's provided information about the
01:35:29 the demonstration to take place the next day so dated the 23rd of November and about the demonstration the next day that you attended yes I think you say in your
01:35:40 attended yes I think you say in your witness statement um that you submitted intelligence by telephone very rarely yes but do you um recognize this as the sort of product that might have come from your telephone reporting
01:36:02 if that was going to be the next day then yes and you may be anticipating my question but but why would you report information like this by telephone rather than by a written report well because it would have needed to be acted upon immediately and could like that special message can be minuted
01:36:16 like that special message can be minuted and off it would fly rather than waiting for somebody to write a report to stick the references on it and etc etc attached to a file and gone so a speedier way to communicate intelligence about an event happening the next day
01:36:33 yes all right thank you and then finally from your reporting can I ask that we put on the screen ucpi 02220 eight it's C8 in your hard copy bundle
01:36:52 so uh this is a report dated the 30th of November of 1919
01:37:00 and you report hm 56 um that among the six members or supporters of the eping forest unit of the BMP who attended the quote rights for whites March in the East End on Saturday 24th of November 1990 was a
01:37:16 Saturday 24th of November 1990 was a person who was identified as rod and you now give further identifying details of that individual do you see so we've got
01:37:27 that individual do you see so we've got a full name uh in the next paragraph an approximate year of birth height build etc etc
01:37:34 etc etc mhm yes references to him attending kickboxing classes yeah that his girlfriend's in Woodford green um commenting that he doesn't appear to be prone to violence his car
01:37:47 appear to be prone to violence his car etc etc can you explain why you reported these sorts of personal details on individuals you came
01:37:53 across because that's what I would do any member of the BMP but why because I presume that whoever would want to know who is in the BMP and what their attitude was
01:38:10 attitude was to uh whatever you know what what they believed in if you get what I mean this individual you commented did not appear to be prone to violence did you consider it to be justified to report on somebody merely
01:38:22 justified to report on somebody merely because they were a member of the BMP if they weren't prone to any violence yes I did and can you just explain why why because they could be the because they
01:38:34 because they could be the because they they could be used for other things what does that mean well that means uh I
01:38:45 does that mean well that means uh I don't know really it means they could be used to transport people they could be used to U uh carry things for other people something like that again accepting that the that you were reporting on the BMP but just to draw a parallel yes another party standing in local elections would you
01:39:02 standing in local elections would you have considered it justifiable to report on on their car their girlfriend their Hobbies their physical description or was it because of the association with the BMP another political no purely organiz it would not have been acceptable no
01:39:36 right I'm going to move away from your reporting and your deployment to look at how your deployment came to an end can I just check before I do if the
01:39:48 just check before I do if the stenographer is Happy I'll carry on and wait for a break or would it be better to have a break in the middle of the afternoon
01:39:53 afternoon um I would say no less than 25 minutes on before I get to a different topic okay thank you I have the nod to carry on um can we bring up please um onto the
01:40:11 onto the screen um first of all uh ucpi 03071 it's your b11
01:40:27 sir and we've another note here hm 56 of a meeting between SDS managers and the security service do you follow this visit on the 30th of November of 1990 so by this time you were um or were you as far as you can
01:40:43 were um or were you as far as you can recall a member of the BMP so this is just after the March and rally oh certainly yeah so you would have been a member were you a member of the BMP nationally or a member of the BMP l
01:40:56 nationally or a member of the BMP l Branch if there was a difference I don't know whether there was a difference or not I would say nationally about that but you were considered a member and you considered yourself a member yeah can we have a look at paragraph um eight please it's at the top of page
01:41:08 it's at the top of page two um the meeting between the managers and the security services recorded um in this way their new agent there being the SDS in this context their new agent hm
01:41:24 SDS in this context their new agent hm 56 against the BMP has had a frustrating time T trying to get himself into BMP repeated promises to contact him have not been followed up now I may know the
01:41:35 not been followed up now I may know the answer to this given what you've already told us but to what extent do you consider that to be an accurate description of the state of your deployment as at the 30th of November of 1990 well I think it's a bit late if you get what I mean this was much earlier maybe that been related to
01:41:51 earlier maybe that been related to whoever wrote this report and he put it in the context of of November but I I think it happened much earlier on right so that would be an accurate description of an earlier time in your deployment yes indeed that's very much so
01:42:02 so yeah a and the way you explained it earlier was that you had wanted to apply for membership y but your managers had asked you not to or told you not to
01:42:15 asked you not to or told you not to that's right this suggests that repeated promises to contact you presumably by the BMP had not been followed up that's right was that the case yes in in the sense of um you
01:42:34 know I was meeting them every week the newspaper Sellers and having trying to engage them in deep meaningful conversation about any subject and um but they I mean contact not to join this was
01:42:50 contact so there was but there was no linkage you know to to me meeting them and and going any further if you get what I mean all right so no follow up in the sense of becoming closer to being a member no because I mean I spoke to them you know when I did fill it in and they did come around we said they talk we
01:43:04 did come around we said they talk we couldn't understand why you used to turn up every week if you were that interested why didn't you fill in the bloody form so they seem surprised that it taken you so long yes indeed very much so
01:43:17 much so yeah okay can we take that um down and look um at another note of a meeting with the security service this one on the 7th ofch March 1991 so a few months later ucpi
01:43:29 later ucpi 0374 that's your B12
01:43:44 sir thank you and we're going to look in particular please at paragraph uh nine and 10 paragraphs 9 and 10 thank you on page two
01:44:01 and this note of the meeting with the security service records that you had asked to be withdrawn after only 10 months in the field just as you were starting to get into the BMP then paragraph 10 gray Amplified what he thinks is the reason behind it
01:44:18 what he thinks is the reason behind it hm 56 had become increasingly frustrated at the long time it was taking him to get noticed by BMP due it seems to a delat local Branch Secretary then just as he was making successful contact he
01:44:31 as he was making successful contact he had to temporarily come out reorientate himself back to civilian life and there's a a gist there of some redacted information that you had to spend some time away from your SDS deployment for personal and professional reasons and
01:44:44 personal and professional reasons and then on return at the end of February you'd said you wanted to jack it in to what extent do you agree with the accuracy of what is recorded there as having been said said by uh detective Chief Inspector
01:44:55 Chief Inspector gray I don't agree with it at all I'll come on to um what you say about how you came to be
01:45:06 about how you came to be withdrawn um uh in your witness statement um before I do that you also say in your witness statement that there had been problems with your deployment from quite early on and you describe
01:45:20 from quite early on and you describe being followed at least once on foot and once in your vehicle can I just explore those incidents with you briefly um they happened um presumably between sort of
01:45:31 happened um presumably between sort of Summer of 1990 and the end of 1990 did they I can't recall exactly when they were when well if your if your earliest reports that we found are 7th of August of
01:45:41 of 1990 and certainly by March of 1991 you were gone yeah um it's likely to have been summer or towards the end of 1990 would that be fair could you I would say towards the end because when I got followed in the
01:45:54 end because when I got followed in the car they had headlights on so it must it kind of been a summer and um your experience of being followed on foot C can you just describe
01:46:06 foot C can you just describe approximately what happened and why it gave you cause for concern
01:46:11 uh
01:46:25 I I I mean obviously course concerned because I wasn't probably expecting it um it what happened I just picked up somebody who seemed to be behind me for for quite some time you didn't know that I'd seen him but I'd seen
01:46:40 I'd seen him but I'd seen him and what caused you to think that that was you being followed s of intentionally followed uh just as
01:46:54 mannerisms and then similarly on the the incident you described when you were in a vehicle what happened then I was um on a Motorway going home when I noticed a car behind me so I thought I'd slow up a bit on the
01:47:08 thought I'd slow up a bit on the motorway and this car slowed up as well didn't made no attempt so I was safe perhaps doing 70 miles hour slowed down to 50 and so did this car which raised my concern straight away were you in
01:47:22 my concern straight away were you in your cover identity on both of these occasions acting in your cover yes role and did you report those incidents to your managers I can't remember to be honest is there any reason why you
01:47:34 honest is there any reason why you wouldn't have reported them if you were concerned about your safety
01:47:41 well to be honest I didn't think it was I mean it
01:47:50 I mean it wasn't I thought it was probably another organization rather than anybody in the BMP and in fact I I had a close look look at them in the end and they did not they were certainly not BMP types at all nor was the
01:48:06 nor was the vehicle can you just explain that when you say the vehicle wasn't a BMP type well it it was a well-kept vehicle with two men with double
01:48:17 vehicle with two men with double man and that to you meant not the BMP well it it it I can't imagine no it certainly there was no nothing in that signal that anything to do with the right wing so
01:48:31 anything to do with the right wing so did you put that one to one side as a possible yeah I found it amusing
01:48:43 risk you I think have since giving this witness statement recalled a further um incident involving a conversation with your local branch contact and David Bruce yes can you explain what happened there and and whether it gave you cuse for concern yes um I was with a member
01:48:57 for concern yes um I was with a member of it was at the whites for Rights march deie Bruce was there and he saw me with uh a chap from L and he called this chap over and not me and he was sort of sticking his finger up his nose and
01:49:09 sticking his finger up his nose and jabbing him a bit you know like you know and I could see him looking at me at the same
01:49:18 same time and and when and when this chap got back I said what was that all about and he wouldn't wouldn't give me an answer and looked a bit sheepish or bewildered and what what did you take from
01:49:24 from that I I took that possibly that Dave Bruce thought that I might be a police officer and why did you come to that conclusion based on on that did you were you generally concerned about compromise
01:49:41 you generally concerned about compromise yes were you apprehensive about what the BMP might do if they thought you were a police officer very much I yes what did you think they might do beat the out of
01:49:51 out of me did you report this incident to your managers no and can I ask why not yes because um I thought the the way that
01:50:04 because um I thought the the way that this person had been Dave Bruce may have been informed uh they wouldn't have believed
01:50:07 believed it I'm going to ask you some questions now about a section in your witness statement I'm going to ask that it's brought up on the screen please page 28 paragraph 148
01:50:30 when I ask you these questions hm 56 please bear very carefully in mind that the identities of all of the officers referred to in this paragraph of
01:50:51 your
02:33:18 e e
02:34:05 for the third time today and I hope the last um there must be no disclosure or publication made of information uh stated during the hearing between 4:02 and 4:04 2 minutes thank you thank you
02:34:19 and 4:04 2 minutes thank you thank you sir um 1856 before we broke um you were explaining that uh after your SDS deployment had ended it appeared to you that um information had gotten around that the reason for the end the rather
02:34:32 that the reason for the end the rather abrupt end of your short deployment was that you weren't up to the job and I was asking you how did you feel about that appearing to be what had been
02:34:49 said I thought I thought it was a low blow you know it was
02:34:53 was unnecessary I mean I yeah personally injured by it in briefly I was but I knew that um I'd do a good
02:35:04 I was but I knew that um I'd do a good job wherever they put me and that would be forgotten about fairly quickly in your witness statement you describe um a couple of unpleasant months at work during which you were treated with some disdain by some
02:35:19 treated with some disdain by some colleagues I think you want to clarify which colleague uh that was was it from your SDS managers no not at all no no I
02:35:31 managers no not at all no no I I I ended up on the desk that was run by one of the nastiest di special Ranch that ever produced and he quite enjoyed sticking the boot in with every opportunity he could and was the boot along the lines that you've just
02:35:44 along the lines that you've just described that you weren't up to the job sort of or you know comments like hope you do a better job here hope you're up to it you know that sort of underhand rubbish
02:36:00 really I asked him for you know um advice one day you about how to approach something and he said well you're the you know you're Mr Big I am you know you should know how to do it you that was about most advice I got from him it may be obvious but did you feel
02:36:15 him it may be obvious but did you feel supported by the management at the end of your
02:36:22 of your deployment did you get any idea how um that idea came to be in circulation outside of the SDS the idea that you hadn't been up to the job no they put it about no doubt it was there had to be an explanation so I
02:36:36 was there had to be an explanation so I think they didn't want it to reflect on them I don't I think that people would have agree had they known the my circumstances uh of the let's call it an argument with them that they wouldn't have been
02:36:45 have been supported and so did you take it that they they considered the higher interest to be protecting the unit rather than protecting you no you didn't think that
02:36:57 protecting you no you didn't think that no I think they were just covering their own rear ends
02:37:09 per as to your welfare more generally you say in your witness statement that you weren't aware of any deliberate process for monitoring your welfare were you aware of any informal monitoring or just none really at all none really at all
02:37:27 um you also describe in your witness statement again I'm not going to ask you for the name or any details of the individual but you describe some informal mentoring with a mentor before you were deployed do you remember
02:37:41 that um I'm not sure which one we're talking about let's have a look it may be that we can't take this much further but let's have a look at page 25 of your witness statement please
02:37:57 uh paragraph 135 there are redactions to the paragraph I can't help you beyond that and it's why I'm not asking you for a name or identity but you said I did have informal mentoring with my mentor prior
02:38:10 informal mentoring with my mentor prior to being deployed yes and then I did not see him during my deployment do you recall that informal mentoring yes was it useful to you yes uh why did it not
02:38:22 it useful to you yes uh why did it not continue during your deployment was that expected or unexpected just no no opportun wasn't relevant there was um a number of years had passed
02:38:35 had passed so there was no need know you know things had changed anyway I'm going to um just ask you this yes or no did you think the mentoring was
02:38:51 effective yes any help was was any good help was effective
02:39:00 yes after the end of your deployment so not during your deployment but afterwards again you say in your witness statement there was no welfare support for
02:39:10 for you um let's bring it up it's page 29 of the witness statement yep
02:39:29 um sorry paragraph 161 oh sorry it's my page numbering again thank you um you said there was no welfare or support for me as a former UCO with hindsight it was not adequate for my needs although I was able to quash any
02:39:45 needs although I was able to quash any rumors about my deployment y um you say it was not adequate for your needs because you does that mean you consider that you could have used some
02:39:57 support I don't know really to honest I don't know you I might I who knows I might have benefited or not I don't know I mean I wasn't crying myself to sleep every night if you get what I mean it
02:40:11 every night if you get what I mean it yeah and I wasn't murderous you know so I'm just trying to to understand what you meant and you said it was not adequate for your
02:40:21 needs what would you like to have seen that would have made it adequate uh the truth basically there somebody telling me the truth concerning the circumstances in the end of your deployment So when you say you were able to quash any rumors again do you mean rumors surrounding the circum somebody confronted me about oh you know I tell
02:40:35 confronted me about oh you know I tell have you would you like to hear my side of the story and it was like oh no you know no no right so you felt that nobody wanted to listen to your side of how things had ended well that's for sure yeah
02:40:55 um you answered a number of questions earlier in regard to the managers within the SDS I just want to follow up on a couple of um points in relation to uh those M um the
02:41:15 um the issues that um hm 109 dim 109 yeah had regarding um and Scott can I just ask you please about a particular section of your witness statement page 28 paragraph
02:41:30 147 at the top of the
02:41:41 page um you you you gave some evidence earlier about an interaction between hm 109 and Martin gray what I want to ask you about is what you say here about his interactions with the undercover off officers so you say that his he was concerned with the direction the unit
02:41:55 concerned with the direction the unit had taken and that complicated a lot of his interactions with uos basically um Stefan Scott was a was another sort of very popular
02:42:10 another sort of very popular officer in special branch and he he took that with him to the SDS so when the this affair broke there were supporters and there were detractors of Stefan
02:42:29 Scott and those who were supporters of Stephan Scot did you I'm not going to ask you firstly I'm not asking your names did you know who they were was it obvious to you not really no when you say then that hn 9's interactions with a lot of his
02:42:44 interactions with a lot of his interactions were complicated was that with the supporters the detractors of stepan scut or just generally with the UCO
02:42:57 I think the people felt that he was that anything he did it was as though that you know he was performing a Witch Hunt if if you get what I mean that now he was after
02:43:08 get what I mean that now he was after you type thing that's the impression I got and and it was that which complicated his relationships I think so yeah had his perception that he was now after everybody you know you say there in your statement his intentions were were probably good but
02:43:22 intentions were were probably good but he just came across as dismal and gloomy oh very much so yeah when you say his intentions were probably good can you just expand a bit what do you mean by
02:43:44 that yes um s sorry it's my fault entirely I'm just being asked to clarify the transcript is shown up as if I'm saying hm9 I'm talking about hm 109 for the avoidance of any doubt thank you
02:43:57 the avoidance of any doubt thank you sorry so my question was what you meant by to make sure that other people were not in any way emulating the behavior of Stephan Scott and that you took to be good intentions very much
02:44:21 sir um you mentioned in passing and I didn't ask you in detail earlier um the management something about the management style of DN d86 who took over as a detective inspector in your witness statement you describe him as a micromanager can you
02:44:35 describe him as a micromanager can you explain why you used do you want it on the screen it's page 24 paragraph 127
02:44:52 hn 86 was a micro manager yeah I understand
02:44:59 um yeah I maybe micromanager is not he he
02:45:02 he was I I just got the impression that he didn't believe anything and that he was he wanted to see it plainly prove it you know for himself that what I was saying so
02:45:15 himself that what I was saying so believe anything that you were saying you mean did you consider that to be personal to you or did you observe him being suspicious about what other undercover off I'm not sure I can't say for certain but I do
02:45:29 for certain but I do think he he had a a close look at somebody else I'm not sure you've already explained that he came to your cover address you also describe here that he visited the pub
02:45:41 describe here that he visited the pub where you were based is that the pub in Lon yeah so that's the pub where you were you were frequenting it in your cover identity and he attended as your Det inspector did he whilst you were in that Pub yes was it a pre-arranged
02:45:52 that Pub yes was it a pre-arranged meeting I went with him he was with me in the car and what was the cover how I how I was going to explain his presence well what I was going to ask you you
02:46:03 well what I was going to ask you you suggest here it was a dangerous thing to do yes did you express that to him before going to the pub together uh not really I mean he is what he is he's an detective inspector he knows what he's doing but you considered it to be
02:46:18 doing but you considered it to be dangerous yep did you express that to him at any stage not really no no and again what did you understand to be his purpose in coming to that Pub to say if I I did have actual
02:46:33 say if I I did have actual contacts did you think maybe there was some suspicion on the part of the management because I think at the beginning of your deployment you spent quite a lot of time just as it were just going to the pub going to the paper where the papers
02:46:47 pub going to the paper where the papers were sold and not reporting very much at the beginning do you think that's what gave rise to their to suspicion their concern yes I think the the lack of uh product prompted
02:47:00 product prompted him he wanted to make a Mark I think having come back to the
02:47:13 unit thank you I'm going to turn to two um final topics um please before um I finish my the main part of my questioning the first topic I'm going to ask you about hm 56 is littered with the names and ciphers of officers who have
02:47:29 names and ciphers of officers who have full anonymity so I'm going to just lead you around some of these uh questions could you put the microphone back up please you knocked it down accidentally sorry thanks wa can we have up on the screen please
02:47:41 wa can we have up on the screen please page four paragraph 12 of your witness statement
02:48:01 um and you say there I noticed it that's the deployment had a profound effect on my colleagues two left the MPS immediately after their SDS deployments and moved
02:48:07 and moved abroad I recall that hm11 was one of
02:48:19 abroad I recall that hm11 was one of them hm11 has a restriction order over their real name have you managed to identify who it is not necessarily with reference to hm11 but what sort of um profound effect or effects did you notice on other
02:48:33 or effects did you notice on other former undercover officers um well with hn4 he took to drink and I'm just going to pause you and ask you some directed questions about
02:48:45 questions about hm4 you um I think later on after you
02:48:56 hm4 you um I think later on after you had finished your SDS deployment and hm4 had finished his SDS deployment and I'm not going to ask you the precise circumstances but you came across him in other special Branch work is that right yes and when you came across him you noticed then that he had taken to drink
02:49:10 noticed then that he had taken to drink as you put it had you been aware of that at any earlier stage yes um you um when you noticed that he had taken to drink did you notice that
02:49:24 had taken to drink did you notice that he was drinking during work hours well it was obvious he he he got into
02:49:33 trouble um when you say he got into trouble again I'm going to lead you so please just wait for my question yes um were you aware that he was arrested for drink driving during the course of his SDS deployment yes or no
02:49:57 after he was arrested for drink driving during the course of his undercover deployment did he carry on with his undercover
02:50:15 deployment I I really can't recall the sequence of events I won't I won't push you on it just because of I don't want to lead you into a a tricky restricted but you were aware um of an arrest for
02:50:26 but you were aware um of an arrest for drink driving whilst he was deployed I think he did continue yes I'm sure he did
02:50:27 did continue he did and I was astonished that he was allowed
02:50:33 allowed to can you describe again not necessarily with reference to hm4 but why were you astonished by that because because he was arrested for drink
02:50:46 because he was arrested for drink driving uh it's like what would you have expected to happen to an officer arrested for drink driving to be withdrawn from a unit
02:51:01 immediately was it apparent to you at that
02:51:06 that stage that hm4 had um difficulties with alcohol
02:51:09 alcohol no it later became apparent to you and you seem to associate that or consider
02:51:27 you seem to associate that or consider that to be an imp imp from of rather his SDS deployment is that is that what you're saying essentially yes um a presumption
02:51:35 yes other than alcohol Did You observe any other profound effects on
02:51:46 hm4 he was a different character to be honest he he was he wasn't the Young young man that I knew he he was uh he was
02:51:58 different can we just bring up please um paragraph 138 page 26 of your witness
02:52:20 statement and you cite there a mistake in the management so you say management of the SDS was well directed but mistakes were made for example with hm4 when he was supported to stay in the SDS when I believe he should have been
02:52:33 when I believe he should have been removed is that a reference to the the drink
02:52:49 driver can we just move down down to um paragraph 146 on page 27
02:53:05 please uh paragraph 146 just the bottom please of the page 27 thank
02:53:16 you all right you say there you believe he went to court pleaded guilty and then you say he hm4 may have told you that John dyes and another please don't mention the other were the
02:53:31 don't mention the other were the self-appointed court of the Star Chamber that took him to task over this but he was nonetheless allowed to continue were you conscious of John dy's taking a position as it were Vis A V
02:53:46 taking a position as it were Vis A V hm4 yes and did that come to you only through what hm4 told you or did you observe anything I was there when you say John dyes and another were the self-appointed court of the Star Chamber can you explain what you mean by
02:53:57 Chamber can you explain what you mean by Court of the Star Chamber well basically they they they wanted to they they asked the management to leave the room and they were
02:54:07 they were interrogating um hn4 over his behavior and it wasn't just the drink drive I'm just going to pause you there so they asked the management
02:54:22 you there so they asked the management to leave the room is that the at one of the meetings yes and did the managers simply obey that yes did they not make any attempts to ask what was going on I think they knew why do you think they knew because the way they disappeared out the
02:54:40 the way they disappeared out the room and were you in the room when it took place yes were other undercover officers in the room when it took
02:54:47 place and when you say they they took him to
02:54:52 him to task do you mean they were critical of hm4 I wanted an explanation as to his behavior not just the the uh the matter of the fact that he was uh drink
02:55:07 of the fact that he was uh drink driving there was another issue with the arrest so to do with the circum I'm not going to ask you the precise circumstances but to do with the precise circumstances of his arrest yes is because it was a very unprofessional thing to have
02:55:19 thing to have done um how did hm for it seem when being taken to
02:55:29 task embarrassed um confused about why uh I mean my own view was that he
02:55:41 why uh I mean my own view was that he had enough on his plate didn't need his colleagues given him all time over it perhaps I should have been in my view a more supportive attitude towards him because clearly if I can explain okay he got arrested for drink
02:55:55 got arrested for drink driving how many times have you done it before it's never once in my opinion that's just the time they get you know when they get arrested that doesn't mean to say that's the first time that guy's done it so I would take I would have
02:56:06 done it so I would take I would have taken the the position that you're off mate you know and we'll talk about this but you have to presume that that can't
02:56:17 but you have to presume that that can't be the first times so in other words you know there's something going on that would that we don't the management don't know about so this wasn't your idea of the correct way to deal with h certainly not no can I just ask you again I'm not
02:56:28 no can I just ask you again I'm not asking you for names at this stage but we see here John dyes as as one of the officers who who acts in this way um and you previously um described him as
02:56:39 you previously um described him as someone who might exaggerate to get Glory who might be interested in that side of things were there other officers like that within the SDS at the time time you served there was one yes right
02:56:51 time you served there was one yes right C can I ask I'm not going to ask you to say anything can you have a look at the cipher list and write down the person Cipher so that I can decide whether or not to ask you who it is
02:57:16 yes can you show the chairman first before you show me please
02:57:25 thank
02:57:34 you just going to pause I'm not I'm not going to ask you at this stage all right if if I am able to later once the lawyers have looked at it I will um but so he John D wasn't
02:57:45 it I will um but so he John D wasn't alone there was another who you would put in that category
02:57:52 just one discreet um question in relation to hm4 it's not evidence that hm4 himself has provided to the inquiry do you understand it's come from one of the management staff um the inquiry has
02:58:04 the management staff um the inquiry has received a suggestion that hm4 may have been beaten up by police after he was arrested did you ever hear anything like that never heard
02:58:18 that all right and finally on this question again I'm going to to lead you through it I'm not going to ask you for a name and I'm not going to ask you for a
02:58:27 a nominal but I was notified that you wanted to make an addition to your witness statement to say that there was another former SDS officer who you came across after their deployment had
02:58:42 across after their deployment had ended and it was clear that that They too had been negatively affected by their
02:58:43 their deployment yes so other than hm4 and other than hm1 one there was a third officer who you noticed had been negatively affected
02:59:06 yes all right thank you final topic hm 56 before from me um I want to ask you about uh paragraph 30 of your witness statement please page seven
02:59:28 yes what I'm not going to ask you because you'll see there's a redution what post you were performing exactly at this time do you see yes but in this was at a time after your SDS deployment is
02:59:39 at a time after your SDS deployment is that right yes uh a former SDS officer came and tried to obtain a copy of his cover driving license from when he was deployed vo that's what I want to ask you about M I think you've notified um
02:59:58 you about M I think you've notified um since um this inquiry began hearings um this month that that was in fact the officer um with the nominal hn6 his I can give you his real name it's James Thompson known undercover as James stven yes that's
03:00:09 James stven yes that's correct uh the inquiry will hear about that deployment in its next trch right so the evidence isn't already there but I'm going to just ask you um a couple of questions about this
03:00:25 questions about this incident you say that he was trying to obtain a copy of his cover driving license from when he was deployed do you remember whether that
03:00:36 deployed do you remember whether that was a driving license in the name James straven which was his official cover name I don't know what name the the driving license was in when he came uh to try to obtain a copy of his covered driving license was he to y knowledge in
03:00:54 license was he to y knowledge in possession of any other cover documents in his cover name no I don't know anything about that when you say it was for nefarious purposes what do you mean what did you understand well I mean there's only one
03:01:08 there's only one there I can't imagine an honest reason for doing
03:01:14 for doing so at the end of your deployment had you been asked to hand back any cover identity documents can't remember but
03:01:27 identity documents can't remember but they at all like but as far as you were concerned there was no legitimate purpose absolutely not to be in possession of your of cover documentation after your deployment had ended indeed not no did you report this attempt to anybody in the SDS or the management chain for the SDS oh no it
03:01:38 management chain for the SDS oh no it didn't come like that I was told this you know this guy is coming to where I was working and it was oh yeah I know him you know yeah yeah yeah do you know
03:01:57 him you know yeah yeah yeah do you know why he's coming no then I was told I was horrified I was I couldn't even believe that he was being put where he was put to be
03:02:04 to be honest I'll come back to that yeah you say you were horrified on learning of this did you at that point either yourself or cause somebody else to ensure that the SDS management or
03:02:17 ensure that the SDS management or supervisory chain was aware from what I how this came about from what I understand was that the dvla got in I'm just going to pause you there I'm not going to ask you about the details of how it came T right backwards so so were are you
03:02:29 right backwards so so were are you saying that you thought that they would already know oh for
03:02:39 sure you were you aware excuse me that um in 2001 to 2002 um managers in the SDS had conducted an investigation into hn6 conduct as an undercover officer
03:02:55 no were you aware that he obtained multiple driving licenses during the course of his deployment no that were not sanctioned
03:03:09 no were you aware when you leared of this attempt to obtain a driving license that um he had been uh removed from the SDS no I didn't I I didn't know when he
03:03:22 no I didn't I I didn't know when he started or when he stopped on SS all I knew that when he came I was given this information so in your witness statement you refer to him as an X SDS officer
03:03:34 you refer to him as an X SDS officer yeah are you saying you didn't in fact know whether he was on the SDS or off the SDS well he was obviously off but I couldn't tell you when he was off and what he'd been doing in in the interim before coming to me were you aware of
03:03:45 before coming to me were you aware of how his SDS deployment came to an end
03:03:53 no are you aware of any other or did you become aware of any other examples of former SDS officers seeking to obtain copies of cover documentation certainly
03:04:15 not you mentioned um that I'm not going to ask you for details of the role that that he performed at this stage but your view was that the role that he took up after being on the SDS was not a suitable one for him is that right
03:04:27 suitable one for him is that right absolutely but I mean being a police officer wasn't suitable either as far as I was concerned and was that simply based on the attempt to obtain the driving license yes
03:04:54 all right thank you that that completes the questions from me but as you're aware so there does now need to be a break I've received some suggestions in the breaks that we've had but there ought to be a further break of course
03:05:05 ought to be a further break of course please do we need the full 15 minutes for that purpose do you think um I expect we may yes yes very well then not quite finished yet but uh almost end 15 minute
03:05:16 break
03:27:15 e e
03:28:15 uh so I I've received a number of um suggestions I I will ask some of the questions that I've been um requested to ask but Mr Menon has an application to make to you sir in relation to questions I have refused to ask yes Mr
03:28:30 I have refused to ask yes Mr benon so this is an application under rule 104 of the inquiry rules to ask
03:28:42 rule 104 of the inquiry rules to ask this witness a a few questions the issue I wish to ask about is the nature and extent of SDS infiltration of the British national party and other far-right groups and race IST criminal gangs this is of
03:28:54 gangs this is of BNP and other other far-right groups and racist criminal gangs this issue is um as I'm sure you appreciate a particular interest to
03:29:06 appreciate a particular interest to Richard Adams uh Nathan Adams and Dwayne books who I represent um and as squarely we submit within the inquiries terms of reference given it concerns the motivation for um and the scope of undercover police
03:29:20 and the scope of undercover police operations in practice it is also of particular importance to another non-state Corp participant who I represent the friends of Freedom press whose premises in White Chapel as you
03:29:33 whose premises in White Chapel as you know sir were fire Bound by fascists in 1993 and again in 2013 um I I I'd be more than happy for
03:29:44 2013 um I I I'd be more than happy for my L friend to ask the questions but she says she won't and hence my application yes um I refuse your application I will explain very briefly uh in words that I will not add to
03:29:57 will not add to why the
03:30:05 inquiry has made public and will will make
03:30:06 make public uh the fact that right-wing organizations were infiltrated by the
03:30:20 organizations were infiltrated by the SDS between the 1980s and the closure of the
03:30:25 unit that is all that is going to be said about right-wing infiltrations subject to the open evidence which is given such as that which we have heard
03:30:41 given such as that which we have heard today but I'm afraid that no questions may be asked about uh any other issue within that topic very well
03:30:52 thank you can we have the witness back then and I I will ask the questions um that
03:30:55 remain thank you
03:31:31 yes thank you hm 56 I I've got a handful of questions arising from applications by other core participants they are um I'm going to jump around topicwise so
03:31:44 I'm going to jump around topicwise so bear with me um the first question um is this and I'm asking you only for a yes or no answer to this question please when you were deployed your cover name was Alan Charles Nicholson and you say that you were known by Nick was Allan Charles
03:32:02 Nick was Allan Charles Nicholson the identity of a real person no I'm going to ask you now about um your evidence concerning the uh BMP in
03:32:15 your evidence concerning the uh BMP in Lon I you said um I'm paraphrasing but they weren't a a violent group in particular the B Branch um did you become aware during your deployment of other branches or
03:32:30 your deployment of other branches or areas of the BMP that were violent no so for example in southeast London no no I didn't even know one existed in southeast
03:32:40 London can I ask just go back to the topic of overtime which we touched on briefly can we start please by bringing up on screen MPS 0743
03:33:06 971 you won't necessarily have seen this before hm 56 but it is um a document the inquirers retrieved from police archives concerning as you'll see on the first page Squad overtime year 89 to 90 do you see that and what we appear to
03:33:23 do you see that and what we appear to have are um amounts of overtime um on the first page by weekending um but their monthly amounts by the looks of it yeah um and we see a total Squad
03:33:37 yeah um and we see a total Squad overtime for 89 uh 90 so it's Feb 89 to Feb 1990 of
03:33:51 17517 um and if we just um take away the um zooming in on that page please and look at the second page there is an entry um on the second
03:34:04 page there is an entry um on the second page concerning you MH which suggests an overtime payment of £ 1,257 19 do you see
03:34:12 that so that would be $89.90 so when you went into the back office um um rather than when you were deployed no it must have been when I was deployed well February 89 to February 1990 was not a period when you were deployed was it um
03:34:27 period when you were deployed was it um I I I couldn't have earned that money in the back office were you doing anything to earn overtime in the back office not to my not to my not not that I can
03:34:43 to my not to my not not that I can recall no perhaps if we look at another document um which covers a later period um 07
03:34:47 43970
03:34:54 please oh thank you so you have this document at B6 in the hard copy bundle but it might actually be easier to see it on
03:35:14 screen all right C can we if just zoom in on the top of the first page um for a moment so we see here this is Year from February 1990 to February 1991 so that undoubtedly covers a period when you were deployed doesn't it and if we scroll down um please on that page around the middle of the page we
03:35:28 page around the middle of the page we see entries for you um and it appears it's not always terribly easy to uh understand but it looks like monthly in uh
03:35:42 uh entries hours of overtime 95 82 94 104 do you see those yeah does that sound about right to you yes so that many hours of overtime per month yes and the pay if we read it correctly appears to
03:35:53 pay if we read it correctly appears to to suggest you were receiving something like either ,000 uh or 900 in the first few months up to 1,200 1,400 a month in overtime does that sound about right yes that was quite a
03:36:10 sound about right yes that was quite a significant amount of money wasn't it in 1990 yeah but that doesn't surprise you in terms of the sort of overtime payments made
03:36:16 no G given the amount are you quite sure that it didn't act as an incentive if it had been an incentive I would have stayed
03:36:23 on thank you we can take those
03:36:35 down um I I've been asked just to follow up on a couple of things you said about the hm4 and the Star Chamber yeah um you described the managers
03:36:52 yeah um you described the managers leaving or being asked to leave the room and leaving was there no protestation from them the managers no suggestion that they didn't want to leave
03:36:54 leave I I know it sounds very formal but it may have been they just stepped out for a cup of coffee if you get what I mean you know uh you know you understand what
03:37:09 you know uh you know you understand what I'm saying it wasn't like oh you two can you know we're going to have a chat it wasn't quite like that it was I think they knew what was going to happen that's my my my view I think the the two principle
03:37:21 principle colleagues may have let them know that their disgust at the lack of professionalism by hm4 so the colleagues I the undercover officers who confronted hm4 may have let the managers know in advance yeah and can we just be clear in particular the
03:37:33 can we just be clear in particular the managers that you are speaking about no names um did it include detective Chief Inspector gray whose name I can use yes
03:37:45 Inspector gray whose name I can use yes did it include detective inspector hn 86 okay I think so yes so rather than detective inspector hm 109 yeah were there any other managers detective sergeants say who you recall either
03:38:00 sergeants say who you recall either being present or stepping out no I can't recall and do you have any idea why if there if it was considered that hm4 had shown a lack of professionalism this wasn't being dealt with by the managers themselves I mean I think I thought it
03:38:16 themselves I mean I think I thought it was if you get what I mean this this was more of a how could you do it type inquiry as to you know rather than you did it and this is what's going to happen was how could you do
03:38:44 it um another question please um another topic um I asked you some questions well I asked you several questions about um Stephan Scot but um and what you heard had gone on in relation to him and do you recall we looked at a a
03:38:57 him and do you recall we looked at a a passage in your witness statement where you described understanding that he' gone to live under a bridge or something to that effect how did you hear that sort of detail about what had happened to stepan
03:39:14 Scott I honestly don't recall who told me
03:39:18 me some somebody told you somebody yeah well for sure yeah it was it was I didn't read it anything like that it was and was it can you say whether it was told to you by someone in management or a fellow undercover officer can you make that
03:39:36 distinction I can't I don't recall really another topic um the meeting at which you were asked
03:39:47 um the meeting at which you were asked to attend um a BM meeting in East London that you refused to do at the end of your
03:39:51 your deployment um and you described the managers it was uh detective Chief Inspector gray and detective inspector h86 um asking you to to carry on with your deployment and not to leave it can you describe in particular dihn
03:40:08 it can you describe in particular dihn 86's Approach at that meeting what was his manner in asking you to stay
03:40:17 on he was flabbergasted that I was going to jack it in literally was he polite to you did he express any anger did he seem upset can you give us a
03:40:37 feel to to be honest the mood I was in I you know I I was I wasn't particularly happy I I don't think I would have picked that up I was determined and Resolute in what I was going to do and excuse the language but saw them both was hn 86 an officer who you
03:40:52 both was hn 86 an officer who you considered to be prone to sort of outburst to anger or to raised voices or anything of that nature no was he
03:41:07 anything of that nature no was he somebody who you ever heard using racist language or terminology certainly not no you said when you were giving evidence earlier that if you had heard sexist Behavior you would have challenged it yes how would you have challenged it and I'm talking about
03:41:18 challenged it and I'm talking about during the course of your SDS sorry on the in the SDS yes whilst you're in the SDS well how would you have gone about challenging
03:41:38 it I I in the SDS I don't know I I just couldn't imagine it it's arising in the SDS it wasn't that sort of environment is it the sort of thing that you would have reported to your managers certainly not not no no why not well I just wouldn't have done that it's
03:41:49 just wouldn't have done that it's something I would have dealt with myself but did you not think that managers might be interested in the use of that sort of language by the officers under their
03:42:00 under their command I I didn't know the managers well enough to to to make it to be able to tell you whether that be true or not when I asked you whether others would have considered you someone who
03:42:11 would have considered you someone who would challenge that sort of language you said that yes they would have done yes can I ask you what your basis was for saying that um because I I think because I was a late
03:42:23 because I was a late Joiner I was not molded by the Met police like a young man can be when they join
03:42:30 join 18 my I I was working in industry or large organization whatever you want to call it uh in a foreign country so my
03:42:44 to call it uh in a foreign country so my my if you like late formative teens were were dealt with in that way not being in a uh you know police culture I mean I could give you an
03:42:55 culture I mean I could give you an example I mean there were no I can't sorry can I can I ask you um this you draw a distinction between yourself and somebody who was molded
03:43:07 yourself and somebody who was molded formed by being a police officer from a young man yeah do I take it from that that you your view was that those who had grown up in that way within the force would be less likely to challenge that sort of behavior than you
03:43:25 that sort of behavior than you were even less likely to recognize it in in in some respects as it it can be in in certain uh instances as as the norm and was that your experience no never of the Metropolitan Police Service no I was fortunate very fortunate into
03:43:39 no I was fortunate very fortunate into where I where I went as a Bas and stuff like that I was but equally I was treated differently I give you a swift example when I turned up at the police station where I started the station
03:43:57 station where I started the station officer kissed me on both cheeks he said my God you look like a policeman thank God for
03:43:57 God for that because he'd been dealing with 18-year-olds he said it was like a like a six form at
03:44:12 school did you um perceive that there was anybody else on the SDS again I'm not asking for names in the first instance anybody else on the SDS officer or manager who you viewed as being similar to you in this respect so
03:44:23 similar to you in this respect so somebody who would call out or challenge very much so yeah and was that the the majority of people the minority well I don't recall them all if you know if
03:44:37 don't recall them all if you know if excuse me and I wasn't because there was turnover I I can't say but the the ones that I became uh more friendly or accustomed to yes they would have done yeah can I ask that you write down the onor a piece of paper the nominals of
03:44:49 onor a piece of paper the nominals of the people who you're thinking of you say they would have done
03:45:09 that um even if there yeah okay I'll carry on just yeah please just write them all down and then and then I will um come to a decision either now or with the benefit of a bit of time as to whether we can say them all okay
03:46:06 can I just be clear you've written down those who you would consider to be likely to call out that sort of behavior yes indeed
03:46:22 I mean there may be one or two there may be one that's on there that I wasn't with but I respected him so much that I would have said he would have done
03:46:40 okay right so I'm just going to read those that I'm confident have no restriction over either their real name name or their cover name um I'm going to say you've written down hn10 Robert
03:46:53 say you've written down hn10 Robert Lambert on that list yes you've written down hn
03:46:55 down hn 25 you've written down hn 90 on that list as to the others sir we'll take
03:47:11 list as to the others sir we'll take that list away um there may be some more that we can um refer to later there are but I agree slow time is sensible yes thank
03:47:13 thank you um I will make arrangements behind the scenes so that that appears on the transcript if we can um final question um please and again I will guide you so
03:47:29 um please and again I will guide you so please um keep your answers brief um the inquiry has received some evidence from hm 109 dim 109 um that in connection with the scut affair uh three officers um in
03:47:41 affair uh three officers um in particular were essentially supporters of Stefan Scott and he describes them as a cabal and those three officers are John dyes Robert
03:47:56 John dyes Robert Lambert and hn8 if you need to remind yourself
03:47:58 yourself yeah did you see those three officers or were you aware of them being referred to as a cabal in that way uh not um uh Bob
03:48:11 as a cabal in that way uh not um uh Bob Lambert no but the other two yes I I've meent I'd put those together
03:48:19 thank you those are all the questions I afraid You' had rather a longer day than I had anticipated um thank you for sticking it out I'm
03:48:31 thank you for sticking it out I'm grateful to you as to all Witnesses for assisting me in my task my pleasure we will resume uh tomorrow at
03:48:39 10: when uh if all goes to plan we will hear from Lindsay german yes
03:48:43 sir e