Testimony from HN56 'Alan Nick Nicholson', an undercover officer who infiltrated the British National Party in the late 1980s-early 1990s. He discusses his recruitment, training, deployment practices, and reveals he never heard of any SDS officers having relationships with activists until the scandal broke publicly. Key themes include lack of formal training, use of wedding ring as deterrent, instructions to lie to police but never mislead courts, and contradictions about guidance received.
00:17:27 e e
00:18:29 right it down good morning everybody Welcome to uh a hearing on what should be although these may be famous last words a shorter day than
00:18:37 than yesterday
00:18:38 yesterday um those who have mobile electronic devices uh may use them to transmit silently to the outside world what you
00:18:49 silently to the outside world what you see and hear in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event you're describing uh that's to uh ensure that uh uh
00:18:56 uh uh your uh
00:19:04 your uh transmission of uh what is going on in the inquiry uh does not preempt the video stream which is subject to a 10-minute delay you may not use your devices for recording proceedings or taking photographs thank you m GL you thank you sir um hm 56 I'm going to
00:19:20 thank you sir um hm 56 I'm going to refer to you in that way because there is a restriction order over your real name um can I ask um please that we bring up on screen first of all MPS 07458 5 it's not been sworn yet oh I'm sorry that's my fault not
00:19:37 yours I do solemnly sincerely and I do solemnly sincerely andove andir and air that the evidence I shall give that the
00:19:48 that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank
00:19:55 you yeah thank you sorry about that can we have on screen please MPS 0745
00:20:07 856 will come up on the screen in front of you and can we go to page two please do you recognize this hm 56 as a witness statement that you gave to this inquiry
00:20:18 statement that you gave to this inquiry dated the 18th of December of 2019 I do and have you had a chance to refresh your memory from it more recently than December 2019 yes I have and can you confirm um that its contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief
00:20:31 the best of your knowledge and belief yes I can now I am aware and I will take you to the specific details that you have um you you will seek to clarify and or add to one or two of the details in this witness statement is that right I understand yeah and so subject to those
00:20:48 understand yeah and so subject to those clarifications I'll take them to you as we reach the relevant topics this will stand as your evidence to the inquiry what I'm going to do now is ask you questions about some aspects of it do you follow and things arising from your
00:20:59 you follow and things arising from your statement can I start um by just asking you a few questions about how you came to be in the SDS it's right I think that you joined the Metropolitan Police Service in the 1980s is that right
00:21:10 Service in the 1980s is that right that's correct and before you joined the Metropolitan Police Service you had worked for a non-p police organization is that right that's correct so being a police officer was not your first job
00:21:22 police officer was not your first job no um when you joined the Metropolitan Police Service you spent about four years in uniform before joining special branch is that right yes and so you joined special branch in the mid 1980s is that
00:21:37 1980s is that right yes and before you passed the SDS sorry before you joined the SDS you passed your Sergeant's exam is that right yes so by the time you came to be an SDS officer you were at the rank of Sergeant not Constable
00:21:49 Sergeant not Constable yes I'll come to your SDS deployment proper later but but a question now that arises did you perceive any difference when you were in the SDS between the sergeants amongst the field officers
00:22:01 sergeants amongst the field officers those who were sergeants and those who were constables or were you all seen as as one and the same all seem one and the
00:22:20 same and your um perception please of the the culture of the police when you joined it having joined from a non-p police
00:22:24 police organization uh coming from a nonp Police
00:22:28 Police role did the Metropolitan Police Service particularly special Branch seemed to have its own distinct culture in terms of how people treated each other for
00:22:46 example yes I believe so there was a lot more responsibility on on the shoulders of special Branch officers than than I would I'd been accustomed to in uniform in special Branch as opposed to uniform yes and what about the culture in the police as opposed to working for a non-p police organization
00:23:07 just totally different but
00:23:09 but uh yeah the difference being that you
00:23:20 uh yeah the difference being that you you were you a police officer and you're a police officer 24 hours a day whereas in previous employment it was eight hours a day and there was no responsibilities afterwards whereas you you're a police officer then you you can't do there's certain things you can't do you can't mix with criminals
00:23:35 can't do you can't mix with criminals you have to be careful about where you live and things like that the things that affect your private life can I ask you because this inquiry is looking at at certain allegations and certain things that went on within the SDS did you perceive any difference in culture between inside the police and
00:23:51 culture between inside the police and outside the police in terms of um sexism attitudes to
00:24:00 women no and what about attitudes to people of different
00:24:10 races again I'd say no did you at any stage perceive that amongst the police there was a culture of looking after your colleagues backing each other up more than there was outside of the police
00:24:39 in a way yes but in another way no if if I may explain in any organization there are people who are beyond the pale and I think most police officers dealt with that by wanting nothing to do with
00:24:50 with them because you could be tarish with the same brush if if you like and you say that's the same as or different from outside of the police force
00:25:04 I I'd say that the police force was different in that
00:25:05 that way that you you know but the implications are very serious so that you you would not want to be you know partnered up with anybody that you
00:25:20 partnered up with anybody that you thought was you know dodgy if if it want of a better word did you encounter any situations any individuals of that sort during your service in the SDS I'm not asking no no no U not really because you didn't
00:25:42 no no no U not really because you didn't we didn't work together you were working on your own in the mo for the most part so no I didn't get uh to get any Vibes like that at all can I ask you about your knowledge of the SDS before you joined it so whilst you were working in special Branch but before you became an SDS
00:26:01 Branch but before you became an SDS officer when did you become aware of the SDS just Within the C you don't have to give me a date in terms of the the chronology of your
00:26:08 service well early on these strange people used to appear in the office long hair and beards mostly and obviously who on Earth is that and what are they doing here and nobody would
00:26:22 are they doing here and nobody would really talk about it and and especially if you were new you know like aaser in in nobody would Tau you about it at all so sort of came later that these guys were um um heading towards the SDS
00:26:34 were um um heading towards the SDS or and you say it came later were you asking people who are these guys with the long hair and the Beards yeah sure yeah because it was you know like wow
00:26:47 yeah because it was you know like wow you know who is he I mean is he you know in those days people didn't didn't have ID tags so if you met somebody in the corridor like that you sort of you know what you doing up here you know so and what sort of response did you get when you asked those questions
00:27:06 I don't actually recall but it was like don't ask that question you know it would come to you type thing you know and so when you say it came to you how how did it somebody must have told me yeah look they you know they do you know they're undercover
00:27:23 know they do you know they're undercover officers and did you understand anything more about the nature of their undercover work that stage no nothing at all no
00:27:35 in your special Branch roles before you joined the SDS were you ever conscious of seeing or receiving intelligence that had emanated from an SDS undercover
00:27:46 officer
00:27:59 no at some point you came to be selected for the SDS yourself yes in your witness statement and if you ever want to have your memory refreshed you just tell me and we'll put it on the screen but in your witness statement you say that as far as you recall you were Talent spotted for the SDS and it was uh detective Chief
00:28:13 SDS and it was uh detective Chief Inspector Martin gray who asked you if you wanted to go before a selection board is that accurate as far as I can recall yes yes so you were approached rather than you approaching somebody
00:28:24 rather than you approaching somebody else is that is that correct yes and the person who approached you was Martin gray yes did you have a pre-existing working relationship with Martin gray at that
00:28:43 stage no so do you have any idea how he all lighted upon you as a potential candidate for the
00:28:54 SDS I think that possibly one of the the the SDS members who were there may have put my name up again I'm not going to ask you for any names at the stage but were you or did you have a working a pre-existing working relationship with somebody who you knew to be on the SDS
00:29:06 somebody who you knew to be on the SDS at that time yes can I ask you I think you have a cipher list yeah in front of you yeah can I ask you please to have a look at that
00:29:17 look at that list
00:29:20 sorry the place
00:29:37 don't say uh the individual but please write it down and I'll ask that a note is passed to me and I I will let you know whether it's a name or a cipher that you can say if you just write the cipher down please yep
00:30:00 thank you
00:30:10 sorry I'm not going to ask you to give that name because of that individual's um restrict the Restriction order concerning that individual so I'll I'll let you um I'll pass the note to you at an convenient moment right so so somebody on the SDS
00:30:23 moment right so so somebody on the SDS was known to you and so your supposition is that they may have mentioned you as a candidate y you refer in your witness
00:30:35 candidate y you refer in your witness statement to um going before what you call a selection board is that just is that your term or is that how it was described to you I I I wouldn't know how to describe it otherwise to be honest it it it was unlike any sort of
00:30:46 it it it was unlike any sort of selection board I've been to before where they might ask you a a technical question it was nothing like that more it was more of a personal chat really about things you know
00:31:01 about things you know so differed from the usual police selection process yeah you uh I'll come to the content of the chat in a moment you say in your witness statement that it was a
00:31:13 witness statement that it was a threepers panel of high ranking special Branch
00:31:14 Branch officers when you say high ranking special Branch officers do you mean above detective Chief Inspector so above the manage internal management of the SDS or could or did it involve I I
00:31:25 SDS or could or did it involve I I remember two one one was the Chief Inspector you mentioned was super yeah and one was a superintendent whose Name Escapes Me and the other guy I can't remember at all but he he was he would
00:31:39 remember at all but he he was he would have been he was a senior officer but I can't remember his rank neither senior to Martin gray yes yeah so Martin gray was the most Junior of those on the selection
00:31:57 board um the content of the the chat um one of the things you mention in your witness statement is that the they you were asked about your home life yes um what about your home life did they
00:32:07 they ask how it was made up you know spouse children things like that did they seem um interested in whether or not you had
00:32:23 um interested in whether or not you had a spouse whether or not you were married yes and did you have any understanding as to why they were interested in whether or not you were married
00:32:34 yes I I got the impression that if that if you were married you could you could keep a a you know very firm dividing line between what you were going to be doing and what you sort of were doing at the time if you understand me you have a I'm was going to dig into that a little
00:32:52 I'm was going to dig into that a little bit why would being married help you to keep a dividing line because then you you you could not become fully immersed in the group that you were going to be following you you there had to be a break and you would naturally go
00:33:06 to be a break and you would naturally go home but you could go home if you were a single man couldn't you sorry you could go home from your deployment even if you were a single man I suppose you could yes so what was the distinct well being married you had to go home if you get what I mean you know there was going see
00:33:20 what I mean you know there was going see your wife and kids you know and you have a home to run there are other things in your life probably that's a best better way to describe it you have other things in your life rather than just work was there any
00:33:40 work was there any inkling any suggestion that as a married man there was less risk of you being becoming involved in an intimate or sexual relationship whilst deployed sorry could you say that again sorry yeah did you gain any impression was there any suggestion that as a married man you
00:33:52 suggestion that as a married man you presented a lower risk of forming an intimate or sexual relationship with whil deployed undercover there was never any mention of that
00:34:04 any mention of that whatsoever no explicit mention was there ever any suggestion did you did you get any sense that that was a risk that was under contemplation no not at all
00:34:17 no you also mentioned in your statement that they asked you um questions about how you believed undercover work might affect your family do you recall that
00:34:29 yes slightly if you know what I mean but I can't the specifics I not not did you get the impression that
00:34:41 not did you get the impression that there they were asking out of a concern that there might be an impact on your family from you being deployed undercover in this way for sure I mean from I can tell you that after I left having when my children were much older they did say to me they thought my wife and I were
00:34:54 me they thought my wife and I were getting a divorce CU I wasn't at home so much I was spending nights away and things like that so in your case it had an impact on your children on your
00:35:05 an impact on your children on your family life so I found out later yes did you get the impression when you were being interviewed by this selection board or or having a chat with them that that was a sort of concern that was in their mind from the questions they they were asking
00:35:22 you I I think so but I think there may have
00:35:23 have been
00:35:32 been uh I think they had a worry that you you know you could go too far the other way if if you know what I mean just expect too far the other way meaning meaning you could become too involved with the group that you were you were with you could get to like them perhaps too much if you understand
00:35:44 them perhaps too much if you understand so the concern was more about the impact on the officer being deployed than the officer's family is that fair from your understanding of the the selection process I I honestly couldn't couldn't really
00:35:57 really say will you asked any direct question questions at all about your wife's welfare so how how she might cope with you being undercover or was it focused on on you and how you would cope I really honestly I can't recall questions
00:36:15 that at the um end of the selection board uh you say in your statement there was no place for you immediately but you understood you would be considered for future vacancies is that right so it
00:36:28 future vacancies is that right so it wasn't an immediate move from selection board to going into the SDS that's
00:36:32 that's right can I'm going to ask you to look at
00:36:33 at um some documents around this period please um so the uh first of those is MPS
00:36:43 MPS 05
00:36:45 05 27 uh
00:36:52 27 uh 469 and it is B2 so in the hard copy bundle
00:37:09 and just to orientate you hm 56 it's dated the 11th of January of 1989 it is a memorandum about SDS Staffing in 1989 are you able to see you can pull the screen towards you a little bit if it makes it easier it should move a little
00:37:32 bit what I'm going to ask that we turn to page two which is where the relevant information is
00:37:38 right oh sorry in that case it will be page
00:37:42 page three sorry I forget the cover sheet is in place thank you right and we see at the bottom of the page it's um detective Chief Inspector gray signing off the
00:37:53 Chief Inspector gray signing off the document all right yep you are mentioned um just above the middle of the page there hm 56 Co to back office subject to
00:38:05 there hm 56 Co to back office subject to Authority it is hoped that hm 56 will be posted to the SDS in Midsummer yep so this is
00:38:07 this is 1989 when one of the two back office officers hm122 or DSW is transferred to field duties do you see that y so
00:38:18 that y so January so I'll let you yep um so January 1989 it was it's being
00:38:34 yep um so January 1989 it was it's being suggested that you would um join the SDS in the back office in Midsummer of 1989 so
00:38:36 1989 so it my question to you is were you aware of these discussions going on about when you would join or was it that you were
00:38:47 you would join or was it that you were sent off after the selection board and were waiting to
00:38:53 hear I honestly I'm sorry I can't recall I don't recall the details our after you had thank you we can take the document down after you had attended the selection board but before
00:39:07 attended the selection board but before you joined the SDS did you begin to find out a bit more about the SDS
00:39:19 itself yes I did and had you found out more before the selection board as well or did the learning come only after you'd attended that selection board the any discussions I had came up came after
00:39:30 after because I think people weren't identified as as as having been if you if you if you get what I mean they it
00:39:46 if you if you get what I mean they it wasn't you know like if somebody used to transfer between offices and squads and stuff nobody sort of said oh he was on the that
00:39:47 the that Squad certainly if you were new you wouldn't you would never have known they would not mention it as a I just want to focus on your state of knowledge so before you attended the
00:40:01 knowledge so before you attended the selection board yeah what did you know about the duties of an SDS undercover
00:40:07 officer surprisingly very little I'm afraid very very little you understood it was an undercover role yeah did you understand that it could be a a long-term deployment so measured in years rather than months for
00:40:18 years rather than months for example yes I think so I think that's correct yeah yeah did you understand not precisely but broadly the sort of group or interest areas that that the SDS I SDS was infiltrating I
00:40:35 that the SDS I SDS was infiltrating I had no idea and uh uh of how many there were or what groups they were in and then after the selection board did you learn more about that sort of information what sort of groups what
00:40:49 information what sort of groups what sort of they were long-term deployment only
00:40:55 only yes but I couldn't tell you how far I I think I spoke with maybe one or two at the most and again I'm not going to ask you for names at this stage but when you say you spoke to one or two yeah were those one or two then serving SDS
00:41:10 those one or two then serving SDS officers or former SDS officers or SDS managers can you tell
00:41:18 us uh two uh there was three two were former and one requested a meeting who was serving if I remember
00:41:39 right based on um your witness statement I'm going to ask you yes or no was the um person who requested a meeting with you
00:41:57 hn4 yep that's correct in your witness statement you um speak of a meeting with hm4 before you deployed and you describe it as a to reassure you about the viability of the unit after the Stefan
00:42:08 viability of the unit after the Stefan scut Affair is that the meeting you're talking about that's correct yeah so I'm going to just move to ask you about that now because it's come up you just said that that was a meeting that was
00:42:21 that that was a meeting that was requested so does it follow the hm4 asked to meet you yes at the time that h for asked to meet you were you yourself aware of Stefan scut or anything to do with his
00:42:49 deployment I honestly don't think so but I couldn't be 100% certain so when the meeting was requested with you think about it this way did you have any idea what it was about before it happened
00:43:03 no say no excuse
00:43:18 me so does it follow that hm4 was the first person in time to discuss Stefan Scott with
00:43:25 you in the context of Stephan Scott's SDS I'm not sure
00:43:32 if the name may have been mentioned it may not have been mentioned what had had occurred may have
00:43:46 mentioned what had had occurred may have been mentioned may not have been uh what he was concerned about was that there was he said to me there's a very bad feeling on the unit at the time and and that he didn't want me to be put off by that
00:44:06 if you didn't know about it beforehand how could you be put off by it does it follow that you must have known it no if because I think I was you know on my way to join and I would turn
00:44:17 know on my way to join and I would turn up and there would be a bad there's bad atmosphere on the unit did you understand what the cause of this bad atmosphere was precisely not at the time much later I I yeah I
00:44:33 at the time much later I I yeah I developed my own theory if you like so I say that again you developed your own theory yes just sticking to what you I'll come on to your theory but what you knew so when you met hm4 you knew nothing at all about what had caused the bad atmosphere or or it was explained to
00:44:45 bad atmosphere or or it was explained to you at least in part I'm I'm pretty sure I knew nothing about it because you know it was enclosed in that unit and they would it wouldn't have been general
00:44:56 would it wouldn't have been general knowledge outside so not something that was circulating among special Branch officers that there had been a problem with Stefan Scott's deployment y years no I wouldn't have even known who he was if
00:45:18 you did you get any impression when you spoke to hm4 that there was a concern that the unit itself might not be permitted to carry on as a result of what happened with not no nothing like that so just about the atmosphere amongst the officers in the
00:45:36 unit yeah all the officers not just the operators but it it involved everybody the managers as well man down
00:45:46 yeah I'm just going to ask if we bring up please it's uh your witness statement so MPS
00:45:48 so MPS 0745
00:45:50 0745 856 page 27 please and paragraph 145
00:46:11 and the way you described it in your witness statement hm 56 is that hm4 came to meet me in a pub before I deployed to reassure me about the viability of the unit after the Stefan scut Affair and
00:46:26 unit after the Stefan scut Affair and encouraged me still to join so does that imply that there was some discussion of whether or not the unit itself would be permitted to carry on no I'm sorry that's the word is in incorrectly used
00:46:37 that's the word is in incorrectly used it was my VI you know about me fitting into the unit easily if you understand so the viability of you as an SDS undercover officer or being you know
00:46:51 undercover officer or being you know wanting to you know be part of something that was going through a bit of turmoil So when you say to reassure you yeah did you get the impression that it was in a way to encourage you still to
00:47:02 was in a way to encourage you still to join not withstanding what was going on
00:47:12 yeah um whilst we're on the topic I will just ask about your um sorry before I move on um you met with hm4 in the in a pub yeah was that a a usual venue venue
00:47:28 pub yeah was that a a usual venue venue to meet with other officers from special Branch or SDS during the time that you were on SDs yeah yeah most of
00:47:39 the yeah I would say that apart from you know the were bi-weekly sorry biwe two meetings a week anything else was always in a pub somewhere and when um meetings
00:47:51 in a pub somewhere and when um meetings were had in the pub does it follow that alcoholic drinks were consumed yes of course yeah how much drinking was there amongst SDS
00:48:05 officers um much less than one might imagine and the reason for that being that
00:48:09 that um well we all drove cars
00:48:19 uh and it wasn't it you know it's it's not wasn't a Friday drink up before you go home type thing or anything like that uh like you would have in an office perhaps and get on a train
00:48:30 perhaps and get on a train it was you got there through the use of your car and you might have had a pint you might have even had two but certainly there was no question of people uh getting sosed and driving a car for example so the car would act as
00:48:44 car for example so the car would act as a deterrent no not really not just that you know it just wasn't a drinking culture unit if you
00:48:56 wasn't a drinking culture unit if you got to I understand that perhaps it may have been in a far distant past but I wouldn't know it certainly wasn't when I was there right when you say it might have been in the far distant past yeah what gave you that
00:49:15 impression the attitude of Martin gray sometimes right now Martin gray was the detective Chief Inspector on the SDS whilst you were part of the SDS what was it about his attitude that gave you the impression that there had been a drinking culture
00:49:29 drinking culture sometimes I just I got the feeling he he didn't take the unit very seriously sometimes what did that have to do with a drinking
00:49:42 culture I think that in the past far distant past as far as I I mean I don't know for certain but I understand that these meetings the
00:49:54 meetings the two the two weekly meetings were drink would be consumed at the meetings so I was told that I never saw that when I was
00:50:05 that when I was there and was it Martin gray who told you that or somebody El no it would have been I I really don't know told me it certainly wouldn't been Martin gray would but somebody within the
00:50:23 SDS whether they were there no it wouldn't have been it must have been somebody
00:50:25 somebody before I yeah so you gained the understanding that there had been more drinking going on in the SDS before your time than when you were
00:50:37 time than when you were there to be honest I just think that probably
00:50:40 probably mirrored what the police was like in those
00:50:41 those days and and special Branch perhaps and the SS mirrored what was going on in the police but by the time you were there you did it didn't um seem that way to
00:50:57 you did it didn't um seem that way to you is that what you're saying there was no excessive drinking when I was there that's for sure you said that you got the impression that Martin gray didn't sorry take take it seriously yeah can you can you describe what gave you that
00:51:22 impression I I think I don't there must have been frivolous convers or frivolous comments from him something like that but I I really don't recall the exact nature of the conversation it was just just the impression I got from him
00:51:41 that and the no I really I can't can't elaborate I'm sorry about that right well it was something you included in your statement about Martin gray right that that perhaps you got the impression that he
00:51:52 perhaps you got the impression that he didn't um I'll just turn it up so that I get your evidence M he did not take it so what you said it's paragraph 125 yeah you knew that Martin gray had been a
00:52:04 you knew that Martin gray had been a back office DS earlier in their life let's bring it up on the screen please if we've got the witness statement it's page 24 yeah paragraph 125 yeah that's right yeah that's so you
00:52:22 125 yeah that's right yeah that's so you you understood that he had before he was the DCI at sometime and we know it was um earlier on in the early 1980s he he was detective Sergeant in the back office of the SDS and you say your your impression was back then there was more of a drinking torture he did
00:52:36 was more of a drinking torture he did not take it particularly seriously as a result of his time there so do we understand that to mean that as a result of him having previously been a detective Sergeant yes he didn't seem to take things seriously yes and can you can you
00:52:49 seriously yes and can you can you explain what you meant by that I think he just thought it was the same the same culture the same mentality of the officers they it was still the same whereas in fact the Police Service
00:53:05 same whereas in fact the Police Service as a whole had moved on all right so so a certain sense perhaps that his attitudes were out of date or old fashioned by
00:53:19 then out of date be the best one I mean if I can give you an example there used to be a bar in Scotland Yard called the tank it later on it was it was got rid of and it turned into gym that's how things have moved
00:53:32 have moved on and so Martin gray was someone you'd associate more with the tank than with the gym no I wouldn't have said that no I wouldn't would no I just no I just he was a product of that that generation
00:53:47 was a product of that that generation really when um if and when meetings were held in the pub during your time yeah would managers attend those or was it just field officers is there any
00:54:05 distinction no I mean I I I recall going to a few a few meetings in the pub where the managers were there yeah sure yeah and would they um drink alcohol to the extent that you've described
00:54:23 described yeah I mean sorry I they may have had a soft drink for all I know but they had glasses in front of them I don't know you know can't recall what they were drinking right but but generally it wasn't frowned upon for example to a point or two if you were meeting in the pub certainly no not at all no no when
00:54:43 pub certainly no not at all no no when you um met hm4 in the pub to discuss um the issues arising concerning Stefan scut did you understand um anything about whether hm4 um struggled with alcohol not they
00:54:58 no and um what you were told about Stefan gut or the the atmosphere at that meeting did it in any way influence you as to whether or not it was a good idea to join the
00:55:09 SDS
00:55:16 um the Scutt Affair went on for a long period of time it wasn't just a quick this has happened it wasn't like that at all there was an investigation
00:55:27 investigation into his vetting and all sorts of things but did knowing that was ongoing at the time that you had that you joined the SDS was it from your recollection it it was ongoing but I
00:55:40 recollection it it was ongoing but I wouldn't have known we wouldn't have known the ins and outs of it we would have known what what what there'd be rumors but there was no briefing given about what was going on who was
00:55:54 about what was going on who was investigating it so forth what what were the rumors
00:56:02 uh if I
00:56:08 recall he wasn't working correctly and this had been discovered by the inspector and the inspector is hm 109 don't use the name there's an
00:56:19 109 don't use the name there's an restriction order over the real name I can't find him on my list 109 is it yes no I haven't got him not on the list at all
00:56:36 uh no okay we can come back to it after the break but it was the detective inspector of the unit yeah at the time that you joined it I was there yeah yeah he was there was a change of detective
00:56:48 he was there was a change of detective inspector was there that came later yes so it's the detective inspector at the beginning yes yes so it's it's hm 109 we'll make sure that you're aware of of the name uh during the break um so sorry I I interrupted you so the detective
00:56:59 I I interrupted you so the detective inspector you were talking about what
00:57:10 inspector you were talking about what rumors um I asked you about what rumors there were he he could talk of little else to be honest he was absolutely obsessed with Stephan Scott and when you say he could talk of little else do you mean in the context
00:57:23 little else do you mean in the context of the SDS twice weekly meetings or in other contexts in the pub well I I recall one particular incident where we were in a we were in a pub and Martin gray was
00:57:41 there there must have been another officer present and that officer and Martin gry had an argument because Martin gray told him to shut the to shut up uh about something a little stronger than just oh indeed yes he was he he'd had enough of that
00:57:58 he was he he'd had enough of that officer going on on about the Scott and the Scott Affair so just to clarify that's Martin gray to the detective inspector who talked about Scott lot Martin gray was telling him to shut up but in stronger terms than that because he was Fed Up of hearing about the
00:58:09 he was Fed Up of hearing about the stepan scut affair yeah because we weren't there for that if you understand the purpose I it might have been a predeployment drink if you get what I mean before your deployment yeah it
00:58:24 mean before your deployment yeah it might have been that I I I can't recall but it that certainly was not meant to be the topic of conversation but that's all that that officer wanted to talk about and just speak of that officer is the detective inspector who I'm saying is hm 109 right we'll confirm
00:58:37 I'm saying is hm 109 right we'll confirm that yeah that's correct and when Martin gray said that to the detective inspector um did it seem was he did it seem like a a sort of joke a jovial all shut up about that or was it stronger than that oh it much stronger he was
00:58:54 than that oh it much stronger he was really angry yeah he was angry oh yeah was that a common sort of interaction for you to see between the SDS man management that unusual no most unusual yeah well it was a most unusual Affair so any other ways in which you I think
00:59:08 so any other ways in which you I think you referred to the detective inspector not really talking about anything else would he talk about it in the SDS weekly meetings I honestly can't recall but the impression you formed was that it was maybe I mean I I said in the office perhaps between them because they sat
00:59:22 perhaps between them because they sat opposite each other in the office that that was all the Chief Inspector was getting and when you were in the office did you witness that sort of interaction when you were in the back
00:59:34 office I don't recall
00:59:45 sorry did what you heard about the stepan gut Affair at the point when hm4 met with you to discuss it with you did what you learn put you off joining the
00:59:56 what you learn put you off joining the SDS at all I hadn't learned anything by time that I met with hm4 but you must have learned something of what was going on on reflection what I think may have
01:00:09 on on reflection what I think may have happened was obviously had to come out of SGS to go up to to be put to the chief
01:00:10 chief superintendent so maybe there were rumors had filtered down that's maybe where I might have heard the name stepan Scott so it gone up and out because it
01:00:26 Scott so it gone up and out because it had to go out for it to be investigated just going to sure make sure that we understand that evidence are you suggesting that information about what had happened to Stephan Scott might have been disseminated outside of the SDS yes it had to be because it would have had to go up the ranks to be dealt with in
01:00:41 to go up the ranks to be dealt with in part yes and in the course of it going up the ranks rumors information might have come out and you may have learned about it on the r Rumor Mill so to speak in special Branch yes but I didn't really
01:00:52 really know I I didn't know it to the extent until and even then when discussing it
01:01:03 until and even then when discussing it with hm4 I didn't know and he didn't let on because he probably didn't know all that was all all that was going on I think I gave you a flavor between um uh that officer and Martin gray detective inspect that was you know that's what
01:01:17 inspect that was you know that's what I'm talking about the bad feeling and that was reflected amongst the SDS officers in themselves all right so you learned at the meeting with hm4 that there was some sort of bad atmosphere going on did you learn that it was as a result of stepan
01:01:39 learn that it was as a result of stepan the Stephan Scot soal purely and and did that put you off joining the SDS in any way no because as he reassured me that you know it wouldn't it wasn't reflective of of the unit at all it was a oneoff right so it was described to you as a what happened to
01:01:51 described to you as a what happened to Stefan Scott was a oneoff yeah very much so
01:01:53 so yeah did you have any um I just want to explore with you what you understood about what had happened to Stefan Scott I think it might help if we
01:02:06 Stefan Scott I think it might help if we um get your witness statement back up on the screen please page 27 again paragraph
01:02:20 144 and you said this I soon became aware aware of an unfortunate incident before my time involving Stefan Scott I'm not aware of the full details but apparently he felt unsupported by the management and went awall he was found
01:02:32 management and went awall he was found living under a bridge and withdrawn from the squad it was later found out there was a problem with his fetting this created a very bad atmosphere so how much of that information were you aware of or privy to before you joined the SCS
01:02:49 of or privy to before you joined the SCS and how much did you come to learn later are you able to assist no I would say none of that virtually before I got there just that there was a bad atmosphere and so how did you come to learn the other details Rumor Mill people talking I really I was
01:03:03 Rumor Mill people talking I really I was it whilst you were on the SDS so R Rumor Mill amongst SDS officers Andor managers I think some came after especially about the vetting business right so perhaps when you left the SDS you were still perhaps receiving
01:03:15 you were still perhaps receiving Snippets of information no no I would have got it from because it would have been outside of of SGS but once I left SGS I had no contact with SGS officers um
01:03:31 officers um that we're on the currently on the that serving yeah so it would have been special Branch back in the squad
01:03:44 yeah all right um other than describing this bad atmosphere to you when hm4 met with you y did he discuss anything else with you about the life of an SDS undercover officer
01:03:55 undercover officer that I recall anything about your welfare for example you know look after yourself this is going to be difficult anything of that nature I don't ever
01:04:06 anything of that nature I don't ever remember that being discussed by anybody actually did he discuss with you anything at all about guidance or the way you would be required to behave as an undercover officer at that meeting did you say violence no sorry the how
01:04:21 did you say violence no sorry the how you would be required to any guidance or how you would be required to behave um no it's normal I mean just you know so that meeting was just about this the the
01:04:32 that meeting was just about this the the atmosphere arising yeah I mean I I I did find it peculiar going to the meeting and I
01:04:35 and I wasn't hm4 was not a friend of mine before I may have known him and that which is why I understand that he he he'd been asked by his colleagues to to make you know to
01:04:50 make you know to to to have a drink with me to assure me that things were okay on the unit and how did you come to that understanding did he tell you that I think he probably did yeah did he say again don't give me any names at the moment did he say which colleagues no no no nothing like that
01:05:06 colleagues no no no nothing like that but did you understand that to mean yeah I got current was my impression that they it wasn't just him he he or he volunteered to do it or or what so he
01:05:17 volunteered to do it or or what so he attended as a representative of the unit yeah that's the impression I get yeah I got but it seemed peculiar to you you weren't expecting it no it did it seemed very odd yeah
01:05:32 you um in addition I think you said in addition to hm4 there were two others that you spoke to um in your witness statement um you also refer to uh the officer who is known by only by Cipher
01:05:53 hn12 yeah yeah so please don't mention real name um or anything to do with the circumstances of the deployment um but you what what um was the nature of your interaction with hm12 before
01:06:05 of your interaction with hm12 before deploying was that about the scut affair or about life as an undercover officer give us a flavor of okay no uh it came to the squad that I was working on and I remember detective inspector asking to speak to me about him and he said look
01:06:21 speak to me about him and he said look he's come back from SGS could you look after
01:06:22 after him so it was at some point I'm not going to ask you when but some point after the deployment of hm12 within the SDS you were asked to look after him no
01:06:40 SDS you were asked to look after him no after his yeah after he departed when he he came from SS to my squad and when he came from SDS to your squad you were asked to look after him yeah keep an eye on him
01:06:51 yeah keep an eye on him yeah did you understand why you were being asked to keep an eye on him I don't want you to say anything personal to hm12
01:06:57 to hm12 so if it's personal to hm 102 please just say
01:06:59 just say so um I think it's because
01:07:12 um I don't were we the same age I don't know might have been the same age um Let me let me ask you this way was there as you understood it a sort of General need
01:07:25 you understood it a sort of General need to keep an eye on officers thought to be a general need to keep an eye on office after their SDS deployments I didn't know that
01:07:28 know that then but I think this officer the inspector May well have been a previous but I didn't know that all right so the person who asked you to keep an eye on hm12 May themselves have
01:07:41 keep an eye on hm12 May themselves have formerly served in the SDS I I think he might have I do not know that for a fact did you understand why you were being asked to keep an eye was it just
01:07:53 being asked to keep an eye was it just this is a new person or I could I could just I could in in my past um service join special Branch I I was an a to CID for a while and you'd get an officer coming back
01:08:05 and you'd get an officer coming back from say the flying Squad so he's had three years of high-profile inquiries interesting and then he's back in the mundane in the C office you know dealing with stuff that
01:08:21 office you know dealing with stuff that is would I wouldn't say it's not beneath him but not as interesting and I think that's what they they they were concerned about with um this chap he come back from SS he was now back in the mundane doing the mundane and also um
01:08:33 mundane doing the mundane and also um because of his rank he was being he he possibly had to supervise people which he had not been doing for the last God years all right so more keeping an eye more in a general sense not
01:08:45 an eye more in a general sense not specific for example to the officer's welfare way no no no did hm12 tell you anything about what life was like in the SDS
01:09:04 he certainly told me um what he had been doing well I don't I'm not going to ask you any more questions about that because of the Restriction so he told you what he had been doing I'm going to ask you some very specific questions about that right do you mean the nature of life as an undercover officer or do
01:09:16 of life as an undercover officer or do you mean the area of deploy the area of interest that he was in and um anything at all about the lifestyle of an undercover officer
01:09:39 no and then again I'm not going to ask you for the identity but you also spoke to a third um former um SDS officer or a third officer who was a former SDS officer before you joined the unit okay again not asking
01:09:51 joined the unit okay again not asking you anything about the identity of that person did that person tell you anything about what life was like as an undercover officer yes he told me you
01:10:08 officer yes he told me you know I can't say a bloody word anomalies would arise that you would have thought that you know things that could catch you out because you were you were being somebody else so he certainly described occasions where or where he'd been I
01:10:19 occasions where or where he'd been I think where he'd been caught out as such
01:10:32 bearing in mind the Restriction order over that person's identity I'm going to ask you against some very specific questions was the information about the
01:10:43 questions was the information about the anomalies or being C out anything to do with intimate or sexual relationships during the course of the undercover deployment certainly not no
01:10:56 no was it anything to do with being arrested no in undercover identity and brought before court no no no was it anything to do with being suspected of being an undercover officer I mean I can tell you what it was if if you I'm I'm not going to ask you here
01:11:10 you I'm I'm not going to ask you here just because I have no way of knowing if what you're about to say might identify the officer I'm going to ask you no basically the question we we he said one thing you have to be very careful of is being around women he said because they
01:11:23 being around women he said because they notice things that men do not and I had a classic I I remember if I can go years back I once I came back from the country I was living in my mother unpacked my
01:11:40 I was living in my mother unpacked my suitcase and she accused me of having a Floy because nobody irons clothes like that and I said but Mom you taught me you know and I had this in a pub when I was out on the SDS had a young lady said Factory was the bar made he said why'
01:11:54 Factory was the bar made he said why' you dye your hair no man had ever asked me that but women are just more perceptive about things about you know about your person what clothes you wear how you appear stuff like that then then men
01:12:07 appear stuff like that then then men just you know like men can't you know if you have your head done your husband doesn't recognize you he doesn't notice does he if you know what I mean but women do I think given what you've just said I can in fact ask you about the officer who you're talking about and
01:12:22 officer who you're talking about and because it's in your witness statement um that nature of conversation and in your Witness suggest that the person you had that sort of conversation with was h83 do you want to check the yep is that who you were referring
01:12:40 the yep is that who you were referring to right and can we please pull up your witness statement um P page five paragraph 20
01:12:55 sorry we need the whole paragraph 20
01:13:03 please yep okay so it should be um blown up on the screen for you hm 56 that
01:13:11 helps and I want to ask you third line down this as regards Intimate Relationships I was given advice to stay clear of women
01:13:22 clear of women altogether this was by h83 who was no longer in the SDS at this time
01:13:34 I had been encouraged to speak to former SDS members I was told that women are more perceptive than men about appearances and personal
01:13:41 relationships y right so when you set out that advice in your witness statement you said you started the sentence as regards Intimate
01:13:53 sentence as regards Intimate Relationships I was given advice to stay clear of women altogether do you see that
01:13:55 that in your witness statement yes what you now say is that in fact the advice was to do with the perceptiveness of women no I started off by writing that because
01:14:11 no I started off by writing that because that's how I was asked when I was making my witness statement all right but if you're asked about Intimate Relationships yeah and your answer is I was given
01:14:22 yeah and your answer is I was given advice to stay clear of women altogether that suggests that you understood it to be advice about intimate relationship no I disagree with you it's it's keeping clear of women women in in your group
01:14:33 clear of women women in in your group type thing we you know as I said about the barate you know just straight away why' you D your hair but when when you
01:14:44 why' you D your hair but when when you signed this witness statement you signed it saying as regards Intimate Relationships I was given advice to stay clear of women altogether this was by h83
01:15:02 yeah I I I I I see what you're saying but my when I wrote this the statement followed somebody saying to me what about can you mention can you tell us about intimate what you what what were you given were you given any information about Intimate Relationships yes and
01:15:15 about Intimate Relationships yes and that's why I've answered that's why it's in my statement saying as regards in Intimate Relationships yes but the implication then is that your answer to the question what about what what were you told or what advice or guidance were you given about Intimate Relationships is that you would told by h83 to stay
01:15:28 is that you would told by h83 to stay clear of women altogether that's that's the natural understanding the natural meaning of statement as it is written yes I agree with you as it's written there but that is not my intention in that was an answer to a question by the
01:15:40 that was an answer to a question by the person taking my statement ask me about intimate
01:15:45 relationships are you sure are you sure about that AGM yeah I was given yeah I mean literally it was weing you know if
01:16:00 mean literally it was weing you know if anybody's going to trip you up over your legend or or your or your appearance is going to be more likely a female it's got nothing to do with having an intimate
01:16:01 intimate relationship just a far more perceptive than men about as I've explained to you have you spoken to h83 since you gave this witness statement in December all not not I'm
01:16:15 statement in December all not not I'm sitting for I know how many years are you aware that there is um an allegation that the chairman will um have to
01:16:27 that the chairman will um have to consider that hn 83 was aware of another officer having made a woman pregnant during the course of his de i83 denied I I knew nothing about that until this whole thing
01:16:39 whole thing broke is there any sense in which having written this in your witness statement you're now trying to distance yourself from the idea that you were given advice no to stay clear of women in connection with Intimate Relationships that is not the that is
01:16:52 Relationships that is not the that is not what I'm saying that's not what I'm saying at all it's just that women being around women was dangerous in that they are far more perceptive they would notice things that men would not
01:17:08 notice things that men would not notice at the point at which h183 gave you this advice yeah was it already known that you would deploy into the British national party yes and the British national party
01:17:27 party yes and the British national party I think you describe it in your relation ship in your witness statement sorry um as a group that didn't have I'm paraphrasing didn't have a significant female presence is that right in the area that in in the the local unit that I was in yes I can't
01:17:41 local unit that I was in yes I can't about the rest of the country I couldn't I could make no comment so you didn't necessarily need to anticipate difficulties with the perceptiveness of women for the purposes of your deployment did you I have not I didn't know that until I got out there I
01:17:59 didn't know that until I got out there I had no idea who was in that unit until I I got out there and joined and that conversation was way before then way before you joined the BMP
01:18:19 yeah can we have a look please um at paragraph 27 of your witness statement it's page seven
01:18:42 yep um and um you describe there your Legend So the background that you were
01:18:54 Legend So the background that you were going to use when deployed yeah you said that you had a wife MH but you were now divorced and you say this I wore a wedding ring the group I was targeting did not have a significant female membership so it was less important to have a deterent built into my Legend
01:19:13 yep it was recognized was it that you might need a deterrent in the form of a wedding
01:19:22 ring yeah I mean yes I would say it to to to me it seemed that somebody would notice a woman would notice I had a wedding ring um what would be the significance to you of a
01:19:35 would be the significance to you of a woman noticing that you had a wedding ring we weren't going to engage in any conversation that could go further than that than that you know personal intimate
01:19:47 intimate line and so you yourself recognized did you that that was a risk as an undercover officer deployed as if a single or here divorced man that you might need a way to avoid those sorts of conversations going further yeah yeah
01:20:00 conversations going further yeah yeah yeah yeah y it was a yeah sure did you come to that understanding alone or was
01:20:13 come to that understanding alone or was that part of what you discussed alone so nobody discussed with you the idea of having a
01:20:14 having a deterrent no not at all when you were in the back office preparing to
01:20:29 preparing to deploy did you speak to other undercover officers about how to go about creating your Legend your cover identity and things like that um I must have done I can't uh certainly had an a chat with the detective inspector
01:20:42 an a chat with the detective inspector at the time with the inspector with the inspector at the time yeah did that inspector it's hm 109 did that inspector suggest to you at any stage that you might want to have a deterrent ready to avoid that sort of situation no
01:20:55 avoid that sort of situation no you sure about that yes so can you help us as to how you came to the conclusion on your own that a a
01:21:10 deterrent that is some sort of measure to avoid yeah getting progressing the conversation yes would be required yeah how did you come to that conclusion
01:21:23 how did you come to that conclusion because my my Legend was was was or my lifestyle revolved around uh public houses that's where I used to meet the people in that group and there was drinking uh and
01:21:35 drinking uh and and I just it it gave them a conversation oh you're married as well and you know I could go on about no I'm
01:21:48 and you know I could go on about no I'm not married or D in fact I had my wife's name engraved on the inside of the ring so somebody picked up they could say oh what was a name this and could say yes so it wasn't just the deterrent it was
01:22:03 so it wasn't just the deterrent it was part of my persona but you nonetheless it was part of your persona you nonetheless at least in part formed the view that it would act as a deterrent for you for intimate engagement with women well with some women yes perhaps
01:22:14 women well with some women yes perhaps yeah and my question is how did you come to the conclusion that a deterrent would be a good idea when you deployed undercover because as I because of what
01:22:33 undercover because as I because of what what me knowing that women well you the last thing you wanted to do you have a you have a you built a you had an employer and that was to take you away and not allow your time to be
01:22:50 and not allow your time to be monopolized by the group that you'd got in you got into so you last thing you wanted was somebody else trying to monopolize your time by having a relationship was that the only reason you wouldn't have a relationship whilst undercover no I wouldn't want a
01:23:01 undercover no I wouldn't want a relationship at all would you regard having a relationship whilst undercover as
01:23:10 as acceptable behavior for a police officer you mean a sexual relationship yes no absolutely no or an intimate relationship not absolutely not not acceptable at
01:23:26 all just coming back then one reason why not would be not to monopolize your time but the wedding ring as a det parent is there to deter an intimate or a sexual relationship isn't it it's not simply about time spent with a person no it's just it's just it's just saying it's just oh he's married and that's the end of it it you know doesn't doesn't even enter into the conversation yes if you
01:23:39 enter into the conversation yes if you get what I mean it's and in that way it deters any intimate or sexual relationship with a woman that's its purpose well it might have done I don't know I don't know who if it ever had an effect on a woman but that was your
01:23:52 effect on a woman but that was your purpose in part in wearing the wedding along with the legend yeah and my question was how did you come to the
01:24:04 question was how did you come to the conclusion that it would be a good idea in part to have the wedding ring there as a deterrent what led you to think this is a good idea because people you're obviously going to meet people of the opposite sex some somehow or or or other through either what you're doing or you're
01:24:19 either what you're doing or you're you're you're socializing in in that and you are going to meet people of the opposite sex and the last thing you need is a a relationship with a with a with a woman do you think that risk was
01:24:35 woman do you think that risk was appreciated by those who managed you I really I I don't know I really don't know so they never mentioned it to you no one ever said to you it might be quite a good idea to have a deterrent to avoid this because the risk might arise for example No No Looking Back do you think it would
01:24:51 No Looking Back do you think it would have been useful to have that sort of advice well I didn't need it
01:25:08 at any stage um did any of the officers you spoke to either before you deployed and again be careful in terms of names but did any uh officer who
01:25:19 of names but did any uh officer who spoke to you before you deployed or to whom you spoke whilst you in the back office ever share any sort of CAU tales with you about former officers or current
01:25:32 current officers who had been involved in relationships with women I can honestly say that I never heard mention of an SDS officer having
01:25:44 heard mention of an SDS officer having any illicit or relationship with a woman the whole time I was there and until
01:25:56 the whole time I was there and until this story broke I'd never ever heard of a relationship with a woman and when this story broke I was absolutely astonished why astonished a because I just couldn't believe they could be so unprofessional
01:26:07 unprofessional uh not come a because of of the person that was
01:26:16 that was mentioned uh that that he who I regarded as the most professional SGS officer ever could have been involved in that and also started to pause there on that point the first story to break of an SDS officer was Robert Lambert is
01:26:28 an SDS officer was Robert Lambert is that who you are referring to that's what I'm referring to yes so you regarded him as I think the most professional SDS officer ever yeah so you were surprised that it was him of all people was that the first point
01:26:42 all people was that the first point yes so I I stopped you did you have other other reasons why you were
01:26:53 astonished I was just a stupidity of it I can't he was a very capable police officer I I found him to be a very intelligent man as well and I just it just seemed ridiculous that he could have been so stupid and irresponsible and she want
01:27:05 and she want immoral that you could do that to his
01:27:19 family the inquiry is aware of for relationships or sexual relationships of Greater and um shorter duration according to Mr Lambert and um as you may be aware one child
01:27:28 child born now an adult man of one of those relationships are you quite sure you
01:27:41 relationships are you quite sure you never heard anything to do with any of the relationships or the child being born during your service in the SDS absolutely not I never heard of a relationship at all not ever were you aware or did you become aware of the uh forat Officer Rick or
01:27:56 aware of the uh forat Officer Rick or Richard Clark hn 297 who had deployed in the
01:27:57 the 1970s were you aware of that officer having been an SDS undercover officer
01:28:11 having been an SDS undercover officer no were you ever told a cautionary tale of an officer who had been confronted with his own birth and death certificates of the cover
01:28:19 identity no but it was always a thought in my mind that when you know people I'm sure you'll come to this later about how you you built your Legend it did seem a bit odd to me that you had you took an identity where you
01:28:31 you had you took an identity where you could something you can actually prove that you were not who you said you were by producing a death certificate so you had thought about that did you was that a thought that occurred to you whilst you were an SDS officer no before I was in the back
01:28:47 officer no before I was in the back office so when you were yourself in the process of creating your own cover identity that thought occurred to you no it was suggested by the detective inspector in charge um and I had two opinions on it
01:29:04 charge um and I had two opinions on it because I I wanted uh my Legend was was that I'd lived abroad I've just got what was sorry was did the detective inspector suggest to you to use a dece the identity of a
01:29:16 you to use a dece the identity of a deceased person or suggest to you that there was a risk because no he didn't suggest there was a risk he just he just if I remember he just saw it as a waste of time and there was no point to it
01:29:28 and is that something he expressed explicitly to you it I know it sounds like a very serious discussion it wasn't it was like a 10-minute chat and that was
01:29:42 was that so after that 10-minute chat your understanding was you were not to use the identity of a deceased person in creating your cover identity is that correct you understood from from the evidence you've given I take it that you
01:29:56 evidence you've given I take it that you understood that other officers had taken that approach indeed yeah they all had as far as I knew and did you have any understanding of why that approach you were being
01:30:07 of why that approach you were being advised not to take that approach purely because you thought it was a complete waste of time that they to be so much time spent doing it I think and he he he just saw that as a waste of my
01:30:24 time so B based on the time taken to create or to use that the identity of the deceased person did he express to you any qualms about the use of the identity of of a deceased person did you have
01:30:35 deceased person did you have any well it didn't arise because I didn't do that it may have done if I you know I I don't know if I'd read a birth sorry a death certificate of some poor child yeah I may well have done you know
01:30:52 child yeah I may well have done you know but it wasn't a question it didn't arise so and this arose from me asking you about um whether you'd heard of um an officer being confronted with their birth and death
01:31:03 birth and death certificates was that risk the risk that the identity might be relatively easily uncovered was that mentioned to you as a reason not to do it no not at all no that was my own
01:31:18 own um that was that was the result was my own thing I mean see when I was detective C in in special Branch we would often do inquiries and I could spend spend days in St Katherine's house literally going through records trying
01:31:29 literally going through records trying to identify people and stuff like that so I was quite familiar with birth deaths and marriage registers and stuff like that so it it just appeared to me you know if I could do it anybody could do
01:31:49 it but that was a conclusion you reached off your own steam rather than it being expressed to you disadvantage on it because I I was looking forward to getting a you know um
01:32:00 it's got out of my head remember the old passport British visitors passport and I was I was going to get one of those as part of my identity but of course I couldn't without a birth certificate which but it didn't that never arose so it wasn't a m it wasn't a problem I just want to ask you about what you had to
01:32:12 want to ask you about what you had to say now that we've moved to your cover identity what you had to say in your witness statement please can we look at page six paragraph 26 it will come up on the
01:32:21 the screen yeah
01:32:36 and um we we'll end up going over the page but you you gave us um the reason for not using the name of a deceased child that hm 109 so that's the detective inspector in place yeah at the time you joined the unit that hm 109 one of your managers was changing
01:32:55 procedures can we just go over the page please so changing procedures because of issues affecting the unit and then you say these are discussed
01:33:05 discussed below um what what did you mean there to say that he was changing procedures because of issues affecting the unit uh where dides it say that sorry could you
01:33:17 where dides it say that sorry could you okay so if we look at paragraph 26 yeah just um three lines down towards the right hand side of the page yeah you're saying I did not do so that is I did not create a cover identity based on a deceased child's details
01:33:29 based on a deceased child's details because hm 109 one of my managers and he's the detective inspector was changing procedures because of issues affecting the
01:33:38 unit
01:33:45 yeah what were the issues affecting the unit that you were referring
01:33:51 to I've got a clue to be honest can't remember does what's written there jug your memory at all were there issues did you understand there were issues affecting the unit that meant that you were being asked not to use a deceased child's
01:34:07 identity I mean I can only guess that he you know he wanted a throughput maybe that was quicker of people in the back
01:34:19 that was quicker of people in the back office and out rather than them building this Legend of you know the B death
01:34:24 death uh taking a long time maybe that was it I don't I
01:34:28 I don't I really can't think of anything else to be
01:34:33 be honest all right but as far as you were concerned it was just not on the table for you using the use of a deceased child's identity no it was a real quick conversation no don't do that do you know just just think of one and as far
01:34:45 know just just think of one and as far as you were concerned that was would you say as secure or as or more secure than using the identity of a deceased child's identity as I was happy with it to be honest
01:34:57 honest no risk of you being presented with a death certificate example no
01:35:05 chance well I'm just going back I I I took a deter away because he took us there in relation to the cover identity I was asking you about whether anybody had shared any cautionary tales with you about SDS officers and
01:35:19 about SDS officers and relationships um and you um spoke of Robert learning of Robert Lambert's relationship when it came out in the relation ships when it came out in the Press what about John dyes did you hear anything about John dyes engaging in a
01:35:34 anything about John dyes engaging in a relationship during only only from what I saw on
01:35:40 I saw on television fairly I don't know what year that was but yeah so again when it came out in the media um what was your reaction to hearing about that the same I just come another guy that was you
01:35:51 that was you know uh
01:35:59 know uh I just I just didn't get it really I I'm going to ask you to just explain that a little bit more if you can just unprofessional just why I mean I I tried to look at it
01:36:13 just why I mean I I tried to look at it from did it make them feel was it I mean I trying to think of a rational explanation did did were they trying to make themselves more involved in the
01:36:26 make themselves more involved in the unit or whatever I just or was it purely as you you know was it purely a sexual thing the inquiries received some evidence um to suggest that John dyes might have been I think the term used was a Gong Hunter I think meaning competitive was that how he struck you
01:36:49 yes did you get any sense of um John dyes who was deployed at the time that you were deployed that he would have been willing for example to engage a sexual relationship to further his deployment that never ented my
01:37:04 head did you ever hear about uh the officer Mike chitty having a relationship whil deployed
01:37:11 undercover
01:37:23 um Mike chitty was a I remember him being on the squad somewhere I I met him I remember him I don't know details about his deployment or or anything other than that he he had
01:37:36 other than that he he had been an a officer so no rumors that he had engaged in a sexual at least one sexual relationship was ever told of no finally can I ask you about hn 87 you might need to look at the cipher key
01:37:49 might need to look at the cipher key because there's a restriction over his real name
01:37:59 yeah yep okay ever hear any rumors or any suggestion that he had had some sexual
01:38:05 sexual contact UM sexual engagement with women multiple women during his deployment absolutely not
01:38:25 no before I move away we've taken a few details but before I move away from your selection you're joining the SDS you say in your witness statement that your take-home pay increased considerably uh because you were given
01:38:36 considerably uh because you were given an overtime allowance each month as an SDS officer is that fair um did the did you know about the likelihood of a considerable pay
01:38:47 likelihood of a considerable pay increase when you decided to join the SDS
01:38:56 I I I really don't know if if I had did I know specifics no so I did you know that you'd get paid more and was it any
01:39:05 any incentive to join was it an incentive uh no it certainly was not an incentive to join no once you were in the squad and
01:39:16 no once you were in the squad and deployed did the increased pay in any way act as an incentive to stick at it well as you can see I wasn't there very long no so I would say no but during the
01:39:30 long no so I would say no but during the early part of your deployment we'll come on to the detail yeah but it became clear to you fairly quickly I think that you had deployed into a moraband branch of the BMP yes out in loning
01:39:42 of the BMP yes out in loning forest and you submitted few reports because you say there wasn't anything really for you to report indeed during that period do you think
01:39:57 that period do you think that being there and being able to claim increased pay might have acted as an incentive for you to stick it out during that orbe it short period uh no not really hey because it you know I wasn't I wasn't performing as as expected or as I desired I found
01:40:13 as as expected or as I desired I found it quite boring to be perfectly honest and U but I had to keep up my lifestyle my Legend you know being certain places so that they could find me if they wanted me they knew where to come did you get any sense from your
01:40:28 come did you get any sense from your interactions with the other undercover officers that the overtime pay might have been seen by anybody else as an incentive to stick with a long-term deployment I I don't remember any specific conversations like that at all I'm
01:40:42 sorry so I'm it's slightly early but I'm about to move to another topic so I wonder whether now is a good time for the break if it would be then we'll um break for 15 minutes than I wonder whether I could ask if in during that 15 minutes my uh device here is set up so
01:40:56 minutes my uh device here is set up so that I can actually read the transcript as it runs thank
01:41:22 you
01:56:21 e e
01:56:59 thank you sir just two two points for the transcript before I come back to questioning hm 56 so you just to confirm you have seen the note that hm 56 wrote when he was talking about an officer who
01:57:11 when he was talking about an officer who he had known on the squad yes um uh that that is not a name or n nominal that I will repeat in an open hearing but you have seen that um and secondly hm 56 the cipher list should now have been updated in front of you so that you can who who
01:57:22 in front of you so that you can who who hm 109 is who I've been referring to are you content that we've been referring to the same detective inspector I am thank
01:57:36 the same detective inspector I am thank you um I'm going to move to ask you some questions about the your targeting the process by which you were targeted towards the um BMP and can we start
01:57:49 towards the um BMP and can we start please with um a document on the screen ucpi 03 675 it's your B4 in the hard copy bundle sir
01:58:04 and again just to help you orientate yourself hm 56 what we've got on the screen is what's referred to as a note for file it's a document the inquiry found in the security services Files about the
01:58:20 about the SDS and it's recording as you'll see at the beginning a meeting on the 14th of July of 198 9 a visit by Security Services Personnel uh where they visited the SDS and spoke to Martin gray and detective inspector hm 109 do you see
01:58:32 detective inspector hm 109 do you see that right so that that's just to give you an idea so it's July 1989 and can we now look please on page two at paragraph
01:58:49 three right so uh Martin gray I'm reading from the document said that the SDS had been allotted another agent who would be starting his training in September and would be in the field by January
01:59:02 January 1990 this agent will be directed against the fascist
01:59:08 BMP that is a reference to you you started in the back office in 1989 um will come to when you in fact ended up in the field um but I want to ask you uh about what follows it says
01:59:21 ask you uh about what follows it says this they're f a short discussion of the problems involved in trying to deal with Targets on the extreme right was anything discussed with
01:59:40 you about there being problems with trying to deal with Targets on the extreme
01:59:49 right no did you perceive any problems once your deployment was underway no
01:59:58 can we take that document down please so July 1989 already envisaged that you would be Target towards the BMP and can we have please MPS at 0745 212 on the
02:00:18 screen and can we um go to page two
02:00:27 please the second half fact the whole of page two on the screen
02:00:37 please you may recognize hm 56 this is a series of minutes a minute sheet um from a file and if we look um at the minute at the bottom the typed uh minute dated the 17th of August uh of
02:00:54 1989 a note going to Commander P from Chief superintendent Smith uh that DCI gray had to quote presented the case regarding dsh hm 56's recruitment for employment as an SDS
02:01:05 recruitment for employment as an SDS field officer earlier today so August 1989 now while it was noted that he was older than most it was accepted that his lengthy residence abroad could be
02:01:20 lengthy residence abroad could be adapted to negate queries about his past otherwise his back ground maturity and settled family circumstances make him a sound Prospect for the SDS especially since he would be targeted towards the
02:01:36 BMP and can we also look please sorry at the top of the page before I ask you any
02:01:47 questions the handwritten uh note from Commander John Howley on the face of it there is nothing recorded in hm 56's PF I think
02:02:01 nothing recorded in hm 56's PF I think that's personal file isn't it so sort of an H Human Resources type file to disqualify him from SDS duties that please discuss with Commander Ops then if he agrees bring the case up for presentation by DCI gray under the agreed procedure first
02:02:13 under the agreed procedure first question were you aware that your proposed recruitment to the SDS had gone all the way up to Commander John Howley to consider no were you aware that somebody was going
02:02:27 were you aware that somebody was going to look at your personal file before you were recruited to the SDS no did that strike you as old or was that routine to look at an officer's history in the force as it were before joining a unit
02:02:43 force as it were before joining a unit or to be honest I've never even seen my own personal file I don't even I don't know what's in it um I don't recall anybody ever mentioning per personnel file to me okay and just focusing back on the
02:02:55 okay and just focusing back on the second half of the page we can see that by the time um detective Chief Inspector gray presented the case regarding your recruitment it was already known generally that you would be targeted
02:03:09 generally that you would be targeted towards the BMP it appears amongst uh special Branch officers I want to explore with you um part of what's recorded here where it reads his background maturity and settled family
02:03:20 background maturity and settled family circumstances make him a sound Prospect for the SDS especially since he would be targeted towards the BMP were you given to understand that
02:03:35 BMP were you given to understand that there was anything about you personally that made you especially suitable for the
02:03:50 um I think there was a more physical aspect to being in the BMP if you like and I mean muscles and possibly the fact I have a black bow in karate as well so I think there was a perception that you if you're going to get a smack in their head it was
02:04:02 get a smack in their head it was probably if you were on the right wing rather than the left so a perception that you were more likely yourself to become a victim of violence if I can put it that way if
02:04:13 violence if I can put it that way if deployed into a right-wing group yes I think so but I don't know for sure and so you're positing something about your physicality your physical shape size strength yeah meant that you were
02:04:26 strength yeah meant that you were considered to be more suitable for that sort of deployment than than otherwise I think there was a hope
02:04:37 otherwise I think there was a hope that I don't know looking sort of big and mean might have endeared me to somebody in the in the
02:04:47 BMP do you have any understanding of why your background maturity and settled family
02:04:53 family circumstances was ever suggested to you that they had any relevance to your being targeted towards the
02:05:02 BMP no nobody ever ever sort of mentioned specifics all I can say is that you
02:05:10 that you know relatively successful in everything I've done up into a point without you know getting into trouble if you get what I
02:05:18 mean having deployed into the BMP did you find your relative maturity and settled family circumstances were an
02:05:26 advantage
02:05:36 no can we take that down please um and bring up another document MPS 0729 328 it's your B7
02:05:52 so and again before we look at the detail just to help you orientate yourself hm 56 what we see here is a briefing paper on the special demonstration Squad yep s right dated the 11th of April of 1990
02:06:10 the 11th of April of 1990 mhm and towards the bottom of the page we see a reference to you hm 56 and so as at 11th of April 1990 it describes you as doing so it's hm 56 at
02:06:23 describes you as doing so it's hm 56 at the bottom of the page General clerical duties in the back office awaiting transfer to field operations in April 1990 to Target the British national party in East London do you see
02:06:40 that so this appears to be suggesting that in April 1990 you were in the back office awaiting deployment yes and there not just the BMP as mentioned but but the BMP specifically in East London yes
02:06:55 in East London yes so it follows does it that by April of 1990 you knew that that was your geographical area of deployment no doesn't no so you weren't aware of that
02:07:14 no if we have another look before I um probe that a little further can we go down in the document please the next page um to uh and down again sorry yes and look at paragraph six of
02:07:25 sorry yes and look at paragraph six of the document please I appreciate you may not have seen this document I just want to ask you about the accuracy of some of what is uh said here um meetings are held between SDS
02:07:37 here um meetings are held between SDS supervising officers and detective Chief superintendents BC and E squads to discuss present and future targeting the final decision regarding future targeting rests with Detective Chief
02:07:49 targeting rests with Detective Chief superintendent C Squad in consultation with Commander operations
02:07:59 to what extent were you aware that targeting decisions were being made at that rank at that level if in fact they
02:08:11 were well I mean I don't know for certain but I I guess it was where they they they had a requirement but did you know that the consideration or did did you become aware that consideration was being given to it at the level of detective Chief
02:08:25 to it at the level of detective Chief superintendent of the squads of those special Branch squads I would have thought it yeah it it would have to be he this is the guy that that that's telling the commissioner what's what's happening in London to what extent were
02:08:36 happening in London to what extent were you personally involved in the decision to Target you towards the louter nepping Forest Area none whatsoever played no
02:08:49 Forest Area none whatsoever played no part in it does it follow that you were simply told that that's where you were to go yes
02:08:55 was it at any stage ever suggested that you might go not to North outer East London but to Southeast London never
02:09:08 London but to Southeast London never were you aware of the BMP having opened a a Headquarters A Bookshop in Welling not there
02:09:12 not there not so that didn't feature at all in discussions of your targeting there was no discussions with me about my targeting I was just told where I was
02:09:26 where I was going before we leave this do doent can I just ask you about one other aspect please of it paragraph five slightly different
02:09:32 topic um this document asserts about halfway down paragraph five the following each SDS officer is told that he will be retained on field duties
02:09:44 he will be retained on field duties subject to the following conditions he is physically and mentally capable of Performing the assigned Duty he is working to the high standard required of SDS officers that the political area in
02:09:56 SDS officers that the political area in which he has deployed warrants continued coverage were you told those things I don't recall being told that
02:10:06 no right thank you can we take that document down and just look at one further document um in relation to your targeting it's ucpi 03689 it's your B8 sir
02:10:33 and again to orientate yourself to start with this is another note for file um crafted by the security service following a visit to the SDS um and before I go into the detail
02:10:46 SDS um and before I go into the detail we see at the outset of this note hm 56 that there was a new di hm86 again no name please but you can check I hope
02:11:01 name please but you can check I hope this will be on the cipher list for you yeah and so it follows that whilst you were in the back office the detective inspector of the SDS changed from hn 109 to hn 86 do you remember
02:11:12 that I I my impression was that he came slightly after my deployment so I was out in the field when that officer joined I don't think when D h86 yeah I think I was out because yeah he he he took great interest in me we'll come
02:11:27 took great interest in me we'll come back to his role in relation to you but there was a change of detective inspector at some stage so we're looking just back to the document we're looking at a note of a meeting between the SDS Di and DCI and the security
02:11:41 Di and DCI and the security services and can we uh zoom in over the page please on paragraph four sorry over the page again I think yes page three it should be thank you paragraph uh four
02:12:03 please so three new SDS agents lined up to be deployed and the first of those to be deployed in the British national party in the chingford and East London area chingford is not where you ended up
02:12:14 area chingford is not where you ended up is it nope nope not at all but not a not a million miles away from where you ended up to be honest I don't know was it ever suggested to you that you might be Floy to chingford never heard of it Northeast London no
02:12:39 no so that's news news to you that that was under consideration very much so you we could take that down please I I just want to explore then um your your targeting in in so far as it involved you you say you were told well you told Lon specifically
02:12:53 Lon specifically sorry the transcript needs to pick up an audible answer so I do beg your pardon yes L yes sorry um and in your witness statement you say we can bring it up if you want but you say that prior to your deployment you completed your own
02:13:04 deployment you completed your own research on your target group and its members if we bring it up please it's page 11 of the witness statement paragraph 47
02:13:29 yeah I completed my own research on my target group and its members y firstly when you say my target group and its members do you mean the lon BMP specifically yes so by the time you conducted your research you had been told that that's where you would be going
02:13:44 going yes and did you use special Branch files pre-existing special Branch files to do that research I must have done you there would be no other um documents about
02:13:57 and um once you had deployed um can we look at
02:14:20 paragraph
02:52:47 e e
02:53:36 um as I think everybody is aware uh I have made an order uh requiring that uh
02:53:48 have made an order uh requiring that uh nothing that uh was said between 12 and 1202 is to be um transmitted outside this
02:54:00 room thank you um hm 56 before we broke um you were giving evidence about um what you saw as the purpose of your deployment and you said of the BMP that um they would not be the instigators of disorder or violence no the unit I was
02:54:15 disorder or violence no the unit I was in the unit you were in would not be the instigators no can can we just have a look please at at your witness statement it's um Pages 12 to 13 paragraph
02:54:27 12 to 13 paragraph 63 it will come up on the screen for
02:54:38 you sorry Pages 13 to 14 my
02:54:45 fault and at the bottom of um page
02:54:55 13 um your statement reads as follows the extreme right wing did not really go in for meetings and educational sessions they were
02:55:01 they were reactive and would hold a counter demonstration in opposition to any leftwing group whenever they could and try to inflict as much physical harm as possible to the other side as well as
02:55:14 possible to the other side as well as causing damage generally do you see that
02:55:27 it's on the screen highlighted for you if that helps
02:55:44 sorry right so I understand from your evidence but that that's that we should not understand that to apply to the lon BMP where you deployed correct but that was your comment on the extreme right wing that they were reactive yeah but they
02:55:59 that they were reactive yeah but they would hold a counter demonstration in opposition to any leftwing group whenever they could and they would try to inflict as much physical harm as possible to the other side as well as causing damage generally yeah when I
02:56:10 causing damage generally yeah when I think I was on one demonstration where the they sort of nationally had been called out and there was violence we'll come to that that was I think referred to as the right for Whit's demonstration
02:56:23 to as the right for Whit's demonstration in bethl green I think so November we'll come back to the detail of that but in terms of what you say here in your statement that's accurate isn't it that
02:56:36 statement that's accurate isn't it that the extreme rightwing were known for um inflicting harm on leftwing groups and for causing damage and disorder generally that that not that I witnessed it but that's what they talked about if you get what I mean not my
02:56:47 about if you get what I mean not my group but when I'd been to these larger meetings and stuff that's what they hoped
02:56:49 hoped right so you didn't witness that happening but you witnessed them talking about it as a hope for the F for future action well they were as I said they didn't like discussing much but they
02:57:02 didn't like discussing much but they wanted action and by action it meant violence damage disorder and that violence damage disorder would be um focused on the left wing is that fair
02:57:21 yes given that that that was the nature of the group if not the units that you deployed into but their wider
02:57:30 deployed into but their wider intentions and thinking back to what you said earlier about your physicality and its connection to you being chosen was there any expectation that you might yourself become engaged in violence or
02:57:50 disorder I I think there was a there was a hope that I might be from management perspective so the managers hoped you might personally be involved in violence or disorder be offered to I just want to unpack that a little
02:58:06 to I just want to unpack that a little bit so I understand sorry I just want to yeah ask you a few more questions to make sure that your evidence is understood yeah so you thought that your managers had a
02:58:20 so you thought that your managers had a hope yeah that whilst you were deployed members of the BMP might invite you to part partak in violence or disorder something horrible yeah yeah and how did you come to that
02:58:29 understanding I don't really know I I don't really recall how I came to it I let me ask you this for example yeah
02:58:46 I let me ask you this for example yeah did your managers ever discuss with you what you should do if you were offered to partake in violence criminal violence no not at all I but they didn't need to if you get what I mean why did they not need to well because they wouldn't do it
02:58:59 need to well because they wouldn't do it so acting undercover within the BMP yeah if you had been invited to take part in let's say a counter demonstration as you describe it where the Hope was inflicting violence on the left wing yeah are you saying you would have
02:59:10 yeah are you saying you would have declined the offer no I would have gone along to witness it and to report on it but not taking part in any violence and how did you envisage it would be
02:59:22 how did you envisage it would be possible to turn up and witness it without accepting the offer of taking
02:59:32 part um well by appearing to take part by appear by by appearing you know you can push and shove if you get what I mean without
02:59:42 without inflicting you know or or or being entirely criminal but it never came to that it's not something I I mentally pursued if if you understand
02:59:53 mentally pursued if if you understand what I'm saying because it never arose you didn't think about it in advance in case it were to arise no not really I mean if if it was going to be a singular act like do you want to come with me tonight and beat the crap out of
03:00:07 tonight and beat the crap out of somebody then I would have said yes but I wouldn't have gone I I would have thought of something else you know but I would be my job would have been to to obtain as much details and from it if
03:00:18 obtain as much details and from it if you understand what I mean so it's not just a I go so far as to to yes but not I ain't going to do it I'll come up with some excuse cars broken down whatever
03:00:30 some excuse cars broken down whatever you are these this this sort of line of thinking about maybe having to avoid becoming involved in violent activity in that way again was that something that was discussed between you and your managers before you deployed no or were you left to think of that
03:00:45 yourself yes left to think about yourself yeah yeah were you given any guidance about what to do if you found yourself
03:00:57 arrested
03:01:04 um I think so I think it was to maintain your
03:01:12 your cover and so that meant continue to use your cover name and details yeah that would involve lying to the police wouldn't it yes it would yes but you weren't you could only do do it to the police there'll be absolutely no chance of you appearing in court and and under
03:01:26 of you appearing in court and and under under that uh and and lying in court as to who you were why do you say that well because that was instruction from whom from the management so absolutely no
03:01:37 management so absolutely no way do you remember which again don't use any names do you remember which manager no no idea gave it would have been it would have been you know Mr Mr Gray or the other or HM 109 or hm86 well
03:01:52 Gray or the other or HM 109 or hm86 well 109 because you recall him being present before you deployed rather than after rather than afterward yeah so your understanding was under no circumstances mislead the court by giving your cover name well what would
03:02:04 giving your cover name well what would happen would be you get arrested charged whatever and then you would report it immediately to the management and then they would go and sort it out and what does sort it out mean sort out means that you will appear say say for example you you arrested for drink drive or
03:02:15 you you arrested for drink drive or something like that and the evidence is there then you would have to go to court under your real
03:02:28 under your real name plead guilty if you got any sense and accept the punishment but are you saying that you would be expected to give your real name in an open courtroom I'm not sure about that to be honest I I'm not sure of all the practicalities but certainly the magistrate would would
03:02:39 but certainly the magistrate would would be informed as to exactly what was going on and as a police officer as far as you were concerned was that the right course
03:02:50 were concerned was that the right course of action rather than misleading a court as to your real identity absolutely you can't go to
03:03:01 identity absolutely you can't go to court and Mis leave the court that would be out of the question absolutely yeah not so to the police officer who arrested you can you explain why the distinction so you were permitted to use a false name effectively with an arresting officer well when you get to court you you swear to give tell the
03:03:15 court you you swear to give tell the truth so that was the distinction yeah well and also you know it's a I don't know what the term is I mean it's it's an office of State you can't you know there's no way that you can have one
03:03:26 have one organization misleading another right I'm going to turn now more generally to topics of guidance training
03:03:38 generally to topics of guidance training things like that before you deployed all right having asked you specifically about that I think you say in your witness statement that there was no formal training whilst you in the back office is that right that's correct and um you Al say that you believe all of
03:03:53 um you Al say that you believe all of your predeployment knowledge was gained through discussions with the officers already in the field yes yeah yeah is is that is that a fair
03:03:59 fair summary yes yeah were discussions with managers did they form any part of the training and guidance such as it was I don't recall to be
03:04:18 don't recall to be honest um can we pull up your witness statement please Page Six paragraph
03:04:36 25 yep you say there that in your view quote the training was not particularly well thought through and too much
03:04:48 well thought through and too much depended on the individual experiences of those managers who had previously been uos do you see that I
03:04:58 do I'm not I'm not going to go into any detail but we know it is known that hm 109 before being the DI in the SDS had himself deployed as an undercover officer in the SDS right so that is
03:05:12 officer in the SDS right so that is known about yeah and the DI who took over di hn 86 I'll let you check
03:05:25 he had also at some former time been deployed as an undercover officer in the SDS yeah I so I look puzzled because I knew that hn6 had been but I wasn't so sure I didn't really hn 86 yeah I knew him that he had I wasn't sorry I wasn't
03:05:44 him that he had I wasn't sorry I wasn't sure about 109 you you've anticipated my question I was going to ask whether you knew that no I don't think I did to be honest so when you said too much depended on the individual experiences of those managers who had previously been
03:05:52 been uos was that a reference to
03:05:56 h86 it must have been
03:06:05 yes and so did you gain the impression that although sorry he was not involved in my training there was no training as such is he there were just discussions you know so your time in the back
03:06:18 you know so your time in the back office just yes but I was gone before he I'm sure I was out so
03:06:30 when I'm I'm just trying to understand h56 when you said in your statement yes yes that too much of the training such as it was depended on the individual experiences of those managers who had previously been uos who you had in mind all good
03:06:43 all good point again no names please no no no I'm just trying to think
03:06:54 I I'm sorry I just can't let me ask it in a less specific way did you gain the impression that the methods and the tactics such as they
03:07:05 methods and the tactics such as they were that were used by SDS officers were ones that had been passed down as it were Generation by generation from SDS officer to SDS
03:07:13 officer no not really um
03:07:25 I I say that because it's it's it's it's like the Police Service in itself over a period of years attitudes and practices change and i' would say that was exactly the same in the
03:07:36 the same in the SDS I think you agreed a moment ago with what's in your statement that your predeployment knowledge was gained through discussions with undercover
03:07:51 through discussions with undercover officers then deployed correct yes so in that sense you're learning came handed down from the officers who had gone immediately before you
03:08:01 Unfortunately they weren't in my group they were not from my group I'm I'm not going to ask you about group what I'm
03:08:13 going to ask you about group what I'm saying is they it wasn't relevant to me somebody you know on the left wing his experiences and what he uh had to go through to obtain intelligence would have been different from completely so it it might have been interesting but not relevant step back from the group
03:08:26 step back from the group specifically um learning for example as to what to do if you were arrested or what to do if you were invited to take part in crime was that sort of learning pass down to you from undercover officers yeah you unfor you make it
03:08:38 officers yeah you unfor you make it sound like a lecture it isn't it's like a cou of coffee chat okay you give us an idea so a cup of coffee chat yeah this is what happens all right got it you know chats maybe at the pob no probably
03:08:50 know chats maybe at the pob no probably no be in the office something like that okay at the meetings that you attended no no they would all they would be very familiar with that sort of if they were out already they would yes but I'm trying to understand in what circumstances your chats with the
03:09:02 circumstances your chats with the officers took place would at the twice weekly meetings no no no whilst you're in the back office as a preparing to go out that that might have come up but whilst you were in the back office preparing to go out you attended the
03:09:13 preparing to go out you attended the twice weekly meetings didn't you even though you weren't already deployed yes and were those meetings an opportunity for you to have chats of that nature
03:09:24 for you to have chats of that nature with the offices already deployed uh not really
03:09:28 really no so if you were picking these things up in the back office not at the meetings you would have been picking them up from the management staff wouldn't you rather than the deployed officers and and also you know there were two or three sergeants that were employed in the sort of clerical
03:09:45 employed in the sort of clerical backup so you obtained information from them about I'm sure I'm sure must have done about matters and and and what you just before I go to ask you some questions about the um meetings if we
03:09:57 questions about the um meetings if we have time can I just ask you to look at a documents so I'm afraid it's not in your hard copy bundle it's the annual report for the SDS for the year 1990 to 91 MPS
03:10:06 91 MPS 0728
03:10:13 958 page nine
03:10:26 before I ask you about the detail hm 56 and whilst that's brought up were you aware that each year whilst you were deployed or whilst you were part of the SDS a report was being written by the DCI of the unit the detective Chief Inspector about the unit's activities
03:10:53 no this is one such report I'm just going to ask you about paragraph 15 please and specifically uh this an officer who is preparing for operational duty is without exception given firm
03:11:04 duty is without exception given firm practical advice by his colleagues in all aspects of his future activities and an experienced detective Sergeant is appointed by supervising officers to ensure he is
03:11:15 officers to ensure he is tuted to what extent if at all does that reflect what happened to you no when you were preparing in no way
03:11:30 were preparing in no way whatsoever so no firm practical advice from by colleagues in all aspects of your future activities no it I mean it sounds very formal there was nothing like that whatsoever so a much more informal approach chats with the deployed
03:11:41 approach chats with the deployed officers perhaps chats with the managers yes about aspects of what you would and this business about being tuted no idea
03:11:55 so we've had a number of Fairly lengthy breaks but I'm about to move on to a relatively um detailed topic so I wonder whether we could break slightly early and come back yes slightly early very well we'll break now my my watch says
03:12:12 well we'll break now my my watch says it's 6 minutes to one uh if that's right we'll start again at 6 minutes to two thank
03:12:16 you
03:12:46 e for