HN109 provides evidence about infiltration of the Revolutionary Communist Group via the City of London Anti-Apartheid Group. Examination covers reporting on peaceful protests, attendance at lectures by anti-apartheid activists including bomb victim Albie Sachs, and questions about the value and intrusiveness of such surveillance.
00:19:27 e e
00:20:11 yes grateful well I'm so sorry I've got to um say my piece before we start apologies um with apologies to everybody at the back who's heard this een times
00:20:22 at the back who's heard this een times already um you may use any electronic mo mobile device you have to transmit silently to the outside world what you've seen and heard in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event you're
00:20:32 you're describing uh you may not use your device for recording procceedings or for taking
00:20:38 taking photographs as you entered the hearing venue today you were required to agree to an order restricting onward transmission or communication of
00:20:50 transmission or communication of information set out in the annex to the order which you were shown on coming into the hearing room uh this information will not be published in the hearing transcript and won't be transmitted VI the YouTube
00:21:09 stream if you've any problem with uh uh that order then please ask a member of the inquiry staff who will do their best to help you thank
00:21:20 to help you thank you thank you hn9 good afternoon um could I ask uh we bring up ucpi
00:21:26 10220 and that's at C9 of the hard copy
00:21:39 bundle uh this is a report dated the 15th of November 1988 uh and at paragraph two uh we can see that it concerns a possible attack on a city of London antipathy group
00:21:56 on a city of London antipathy group picket and it's right is it not hn9 that at that time clag was holding a continuous picket of the South African High Commission in London is that correct that's correct and I think you told us a little earli in the day that you came to get
00:22:22 earli in the day that you came to get involved with clag as a way into uh the Revolutionary communist group that's correct um for your benefit page 35 paragraph
00:22:31 paragraph 111 it's right that you accept that clag in itself uh was neither subversive nor involved in criminality that's correct yes public order issues
00:22:45 order issues only yes so where I was about to ask you what was the purpose of this sort of reporting um it was public order in trafala
00:22:52 trafala square isn't it fair to say uh that this vigil was a peaceful protest generally it was yes
00:23:05 would it not follow that had you not sought to use clag as a way into the rcg uh that you'd have been unlikely to have reported on the group at all um that's probably correct
00:23:27 yesk you um can we look now at 0996 which is at C10 of the hard copy bundle it's ucpi [Music]
00:23:48 9968 uh this is a report dated the 18th of
00:23:49 of November um 1988 uh we can see from paragraph uh two uh that this report
00:24:02 paragraph uh two uh that this report related here to a lecture that was held or hosted by the hdan Society of socialist
00:24:04 socialist lawyers and I just want to uh just address the next two paragraphs please which read as follows uh the main speaker for the evening was Alby saxs saak a South African human rights
00:24:15 saak a South African human rights activist living in mosam Beek was giving his first lecture uh since uh April when he was severely injured by a bomb
00:24:28 he was severely injured by a bomb attached to his car the perpetrators of this incident uh are believed D to be members of South Africa's Military Intelligence Department after a uh lengthy
00:24:34 lengthy introduction uh and by an a aged vice president of the hdan society Jack Aster saak spoke for an hour about his vision for a recognized democracy in South Africa although he said that he
00:24:46 Africa although he said that he supported the African National Congress of which he was a member it was apparent that he wanted to see the whole of South African society restructured without violence that he was not looking for revenge or retribution against the
00:25:00 revenge or retribution against the exponents of the old Society after any so-called
00:25:01 so-called restructuring uh after his lecture uh there was a period of questions which lasted about 45 minutes it might be of interest to note that the three members
00:25:12 interest to note that the three members of the city of London anti- aparte group were present namely uh Mike Russell a person known as privacy and an unknown unknown male Jeffrey binman was also
00:25:25 identified now what um what was the intelligence or policing value of report reporting uh on a lecture of this nature hosted by a society of socialist lawyers well I went to the um I would
00:25:37 lawyers well I went to the um I would have gone to the meeting as part of my um my My Chosen attendances were as it were at political meetings um I would have as a matter of course reported on
00:25:55 have as a matter of course reported on every single one of them um I made out a foolish report there of what it was on reflection um yes that's probably to much and my report really should have could well have been just that I attended who was there um and what it was about but sometimes I would report
00:26:09 was about but sometimes I would report on things because I was sort of writing them out if you like of the the extremist um kind of thing so it was putting a um a
00:26:20 putting a um a negative um uh putting a negative in rather than them being positively involved with something like public order or a subversion would a way of achieving that that would have been less intrusive
00:26:33 that would have been less intrusive would have would be not to report on what was going on at all um well I would have reported my
00:26:45 all um well I would have reported my attendance there you know simply because I was there and that's what I was there to do what what would have been the value of
00:26:57 that well as I say I I think really the it it might come down that it you might regard it as zero value at all but at the time this is what we would do at the end of a meeting is we we would write it up and report on
00:27:11 up and report on it um Jeffrey binman is a prominent lawyer U was there any purpose of referring to his presence at this event no no is there any reason why you can you remember why you included this
00:27:23 you remember why you included this detail simply because it was you know that's what I had learned at the meeting and that's what I decided to report on on reflection as you say perhaps it should have been just one simple
00:27:37 should have been just one simple paragraph to say that I'd attended the meeting and that was it we can see on the second page of that document that Mr bidan had a registry file um held um do you
00:27:53 file um held um do you know why he was of particular interest to special Branch I I I obviously remember him as being being um a partner I think in you know a law company um that had
00:28:05 that had represented um uh well-known should we say political causes I think that's the best way but that's all I knew that's all I knew about him uh as to why he had the file I don't know when you say
00:28:21 the file I don't know when you say represented well-known political causes do you mean defendants in criminal proceedings arising from political
00:28:34 proceedings arising from political causes uh um I yes I think probably that would have been it yeah and you'd probably agree with me that uh defendants are entitled to representation is that right oh of course yes I ask again any was there any real reason to uh report on Mr
00:28:46 real reason to uh report on Mr binman uh no not because of any particular stance within it it was just simply he was there and our practice at the time was the people that you
00:29:00 the time was the people that you recognized at meetings um you would report their presence there that's all could we now forgive me I interrupted you no sorry I think it's a matter of the process um of reporting um at the time if you went to a meeting you submitted a a meeting report if you
00:29:15 submitted a a meeting report if you identified people there you you put their names in the report just to just to pick up off that because earlier you told us that the your approach to intelligence reporting
00:29:26 your approach to intelligence reporting was to include anything that you believe to be of value H is it actually the position that the approach was to record as much details could be
00:29:40 to record as much details could be remembered regardless of value for others to do with up the chain possibly that might have been my Approach within this report was to report everything I could remember and
00:29:54 report everything I could remember and it was fairly early in my deployment I think yeah so just a couple of months into my my deployment so I accept the criticism that perhaps that report was unnecessary could we look at um ucpi
00:30:08 unnecessary could we look at um ucpi 30665 please which is at B6 of the hard copy
00:30:20 bundle and this is a security service note for file dated the 18th of January 1989 uh and we can see um from the first paragraph It's a record of a meeting
00:30:33 paragraph It's a record of a meeting between the security service and the SDS DTI uh Martin gray and I just want to look please at page two paragraph 4 which says this um gray surprised the security
00:30:49 this um gray surprised the security service by saying that they had decided that in the long run the rcg would be the wrong target for hm90 they determined on reflection to point him at the swp and we thinking of Lamberth North as a suitable branch they felt the that the swp was a Target
00:31:01 they felt the that the swp was a Target he could get his teeth into the security service said that he was very happy with this decision on the other hand the SDS choice of Target Branch was more questionable the security service reinforced the argument strongly gry
00:31:14 reinforced the argument strongly gry chewed over the matter for a time but there was no definite conclusion arrived at to the
00:31:25 discussion um so um that's a record from January um 198 9
00:31:35 um do you were you made aware forgive me when were you made aware that you were to be directed away from the rcg and towards the swp it would have been around about this
00:31:48 swp it would have been around about this time I think it was probably towards the end of the year or into the new year end of 1988 beginning of 198 I think so I do remember going to a
00:32:00 think so I do remember going to a meeting around about the CHR time at um the S at
00:32:04 the S at clag so it would have been around the turn of the Year 89 88 into 89 was any reason given to you for this change in your
00:32:15 change in your deployment well I'd understood it that a um a gap had opened up within with reporting um on the swp and therefore I was redeployed for that reason
00:32:32 was redeployed for that reason did you have any input into whether uh this uh change should occur or was it solely a matter for your managers it was a matter for the managers who later came to discuss uh with me and who basically
00:32:44 to discuss uh with me and who basically would have said are there do you foresee any problems um I was consulted in that I remember I I foresaw nothing and um so I then moved from one target to
00:32:55 I then moved from one target to another were you aware uh that the security service was being appraised about your deployment yes I was
00:33:13 yes how were you aware discussions with the the managers does it follow that um your managers spoke to you about the fact
00:33:28 managers spoke to you about the fact that they were sharing information about you with the security service um yes that would follow
00:33:36 yes were you aware or made aware that the security service has an opinion about which branch of the swp you should have been targeted at uh yes I think I was
00:33:54 aware again is that something that you information you got from talking to your managers or by other means it was all part of that one conversation
00:34:07 can we just look please at page three of that document paragraph
00:34:19 7 uh which says um gray asked about our interest in s swp Party Center when gray queried the security forgive me I'll start again when gray queried whether
00:34:30 start again when gray queried whether the security service would be interested in seeing a UC gained access to to the center the security service responded positively the security service suggested that such access may prove of a particular importance if it could be obtained in a particular way gray replied uh that this might be possible
00:34:45 replied uh that this might be possible in the future Security Service commented that in the interest of gaining Center access the security service would be happy uh to help pay to facilitate this a a gist of the underlying text just uh for uh your understanding
00:34:58 for uh your understanding uh were you ever made aware that the security service was interested in the possibility of access being gained to the swp party
00:35:11 the swp party center I think I was generally aware of it but not as a result of this
00:35:21 conversation can you recollect how you became aware again it would have been through discussions with managers were you ever tasked to gain access to the Party Center no I
00:35:35 access to the Party Center no I wasn't were you ever made aware that the security service had offered to assist in funding access or funding the facilitation of access yeah um I don't recall that
00:35:54 no uh ucpi 30666 please which is at B7 of the hard copy bundle
00:36:10 so it should be ucpi
00:36:27 30666 thank you um this is a security service loose minute dated the 26th of J January
00:36:28 January 1989 document is headed um s SDS uh coverage of swp targets uh and we can see top right corner of that document
00:36:39 see top right corner of that document there's a manuscript note there that's a top and tailed version given to the STDs do you see that yes I do it seems that
00:36:51 do you see that yes I do it seems that uh or at least it's recorded that some sort of version of that note filtered its way back to the SDS um could we have a look at the very last paragraph on that page both un he helpfully
00:37:00 helpfully um Mark paragraph seven but it's the last one says this direct access to S swp
00:37:09 swp headquarters uh and the party's computer is of prime importance in our study of the swp membership is centrally recorded and all details stored We Believe on computer uh were you ever requested to
00:37:26 computer uh were you ever requested to gain access to the swp computer or swp membership record no
00:37:37 no was it ever suggested to you that that might be a direction you might be asked to
00:37:42 asked to take no I don't recall being being tasked or hinted at it even yes or no please were you ever made aware of the security service interest in gaining access to those
00:37:54 in gaining access to those records can I ask a question is it do you mean computer records let's let's break it down first of all were you ever made of the security services interest in gaining access to the
00:38:08 in gaining access to the computer no I wasn't made aware were you ever made aware of uh any interest uh of uh gaining access to uh membership records membership lists is what I'd say branches would have
00:38:19 what I'd say branches would have membership lists obviously say branches what do you mean by that you mean local branches the local individual branches yeah
00:38:28 yeah and that was something you were uh interested in accessing was it yes they
00:38:41 were um next please uh ucpi 30667 which is at B8 of the hard copy
00:38:59 bundle this is a um Security Service note for file data the sixth of February 1989 uh can see uh from the first paragraph It's a record of a meeting between the security service and the um
00:39:14 between the security service and the um SDS manager DCI gray and I just want to take you to paragraph uh for beginning from
00:39:15 from hn9 it says hn9 was definitely being put into the swp said gray but not as we had hoped into leish him after much discussion SS management had decided
00:39:26 discussion SS management had decided that in the short term at least they wanted to start him off in Lambeth F4 expressed mild disappointment he
00:39:39 expressed mild disappointment he suggested that perhaps after a time hm90 could be moved across in the direction desired by F2 and gray commented that this was a distinct
00:39:53 possibility were you um made aware that the security service was Keen for you to be directed into a different branch of the
00:39:54 the swp yes I I was aware
00:40:06 swp yes I I was aware being careful about names are you able to recollect how you became aware um through
00:40:07 through [Music]
00:40:08 [Music] um through through a manager at um SDS
00:40:15 is yes it's hn 109 again
00:40:33 and did you have any input as to uh where you were going to be directed at that time I don't recall so no um the branch was uh suggested to me um not not lewish I'm sorry that's the branch I
00:40:44 lewish I'm sorry that's the branch I went to and I learned of the lewisham connection sometime after I'd already started um to work in another Branch it was a comment in passing
00:41:01 was a comment in passing at ucpi 21856 please which is at b23 of the hard copy
00:41:17 bundle ucpi 21856
00:41:36 thank you um this is a security service note for file dated the 27th of February 1990 uh and uh we can see from paragraph one it's a record of a meeting between
00:41:49 one it's a record of a meeting between the security service and SDS managers at DCI gray and dihn 109 uh and I just want to take you please to second page page two uh paragraphs uh f and
00:42:02 uh paragraphs uh f and g uh which read hn9 s WP Lamberth and I think Lamberth was the group uh you were in at the time is that right yes that be correct hm 109 had
00:42:15 right yes that be correct hm 109 had telephoned me on the 15th of February asking for our views on the value of retargeting hm90 into the swp Southwest London Branch from Lamberth he said hm90 had virtually sucked Lamberth dry and
00:42:26 had virtually sucked Lamberth dry and there was an opportunity for retargeting him uh having consulted uh I was able to give gray uh and hm hm 109 the following information however that was not to say
00:42:40 information however that was not to say that if SDS felt it would be useful from their point of view to retarget into that Branch would be diffic would be
00:42:55 that Branch would be diffic would be very willing to give them hm 109 saw the advantage of keeping hm90 active and in particular giving them an anre to swss um
00:42:58 swss um activities uh I think that means socialist worker student Society is that right that's correct thank you uh
00:43:09 right that's correct thank you uh through Kingston poly Technic SDS were concerned to have knowledge of s swss the swp student Wing that we left it that SDS will contact me if they wish to take up the offer and then Under The Heading General targeting they viewed the swp as their bread and butter in
00:43:25 the swp as their bread and butter in public order terms therefore they always like to have at least a couple of s swp SDS sources
00:43:40 now um just starting with some of the language in that um document do do you know what was meant uh when it was uh suggested that you had um you'd sucked Lambeth
00:43:50 Lambeth dry I think that would have been a reference to um its membership um who were the who were the activists most active people within the membership of that
00:44:05 membership of that Branch um and obviously with time um you know I've Pro probably got a very good um understanding of what that particular Branch was about and uh who were who were the people of importance there I
00:44:16 were the people of importance there I think that's Pro and there was probably little more that I could get out at that time because I was basically up to
00:44:29 dat what was your uh position in um Lamberth s swp at that time I had no executive uh position I was just simply a member of the
00:44:46 branch how are you able to exhaust the um possibility
00:44:57 the um possibility of gaining any more useful information um without having a position of prominence within that Branch the branches were not especially large so you did get to know people through uh attend attendance at the
00:45:08 through uh attend attendance at the meetings the the usual sort of social contact after the meetings um activities such as talked about before fly posting uh there used to be other regular
00:45:19 uh there used to be other regular activities like Saturday morning paper sales so you got to know people and you got to know the branch through being if you like one of the worker bees within
00:45:41 you like one of the worker bees within it whose suggestion or idea was it that you try to move into uh a different branch into the Southwest London branch that that suggestion was mine um why did you make that suggestion because I felt that um by going down to um another Branch um I would if you if you like
00:45:56 Branch um I would if you if you like start start intelligence collecting aesh in an in a new Branch as it were and that the information provided there to the security service would be of value uh I wouldn't lose um anything on the public order
00:46:07 public order front were you aware well just pause there a moment actually picking up on what you've just said why did you not think you'd lose anything on the public order front because the branches generally are coordinated um by the
00:46:20 generally are coordinated um by the center by S swp Center so what will go out to one branch will probably go out to all of them unless it's a very local
00:46:31 to all of them unless it's a very local activity in this case the Kingston poly Technic was something that I may have got some insight into by being a member of the Southwest London Branch were you aware that your managers
00:46:43 Branch were you aware that your managers may discuss your proposal of moving with the security service no I
00:46:51 wasn't did you come to learn that they discussed it with the security service I can't I can't remember I really can't remember if and when a discussion would have taken
00:47:06 place does it follow however from what you've told us that you had some say or input into your targeting whilst you're deployed into the s swp yes that's
00:47:19 true do you know what was meant by the expression the SDS viewing the swp as their bread and butter in public order terms I think um the SDS regarded because it was one of the largest of the
00:47:33 because it was one of the largest of the uh what we thought were you know what we regarded as subversive and having revolutionary politics uh the S swp probably was the largest um it was quite well
00:47:42 well coordinated and very often when there
00:47:59 coordinated and very often when there were public order issues and problems um the swp quite often had some connection to it so by understanding what the swp was up to make give you a a a good indication as to whether or not a demonstration was intended to be peaceful well attended or turnout in large
00:48:08 large numbers we'll have a look via some other documents in due course uh at the swp and public order uh but could we look now please at ucpi 18314 sorry
00:48:23 now please at ucpi 18314 sorry 18315 which is at B24 of the hard copy bundle
00:48:40 this is another Security Service file note this time dated the 14th of March 1990 uh we can see from the head of the document this is a record of a meeting
00:48:52 document this is a record of a meeting between the security service and DCI gra DN
00:48:56 DN 109 I just want to look out with you please
00:48:57 please at the second page paragraph 2D uh which reads uh hn9 SDS confirm that they plan to move hn9 from Lambeth swp Branch to the Southwest London
00:49:12 swp Branch to the Southwest London Branch the latter is in the area where he lives so there should be no difficulty I repeated my offer of a list of known Branch members in the new Target if they wish to ask for
00:49:28 it uh does it follow then from what you've just told us and what we can see recorded in that document that on this occasion your suggestion as to where you should be targeted was accepted by your
00:49:39 should be targeted was accepted by your managers and and was put into effect yes that's
00:49:44 correct how much influence would you say you had on your own targeting or tasking um well on this particular case I had I had a reason I had an
00:49:56 I had I had a reason I had an explanation as to why I thought thought it would be a good idea to move um explained that through um and I think they accepted that as a as a good as a a good
00:50:09 good advancement um for the coverage of that organization across your deployment uh so looking back at the entire time that you were in the
00:50:20 entire time that you were in the field how much influence would you say you had across the piece um I would say probably this is the the significant one the rest of the time um I took my guidance from my managers as to where I should
00:50:33 managers as to where I should go well it wasn't guidance it was my
00:50:47 instruction did you ever receive a list of known Branch members uh within your new
00:50:48 new Target I don't recall that no no can I also say the latter is in the area where he lives so there should be no difficulty I don't understand what
00:51:03 be no difficulty I don't understand what that uh sentence means I see cuz I don't live anywhere near
00:51:12 there did your managers ever make you aware that the security service had offered to provide such a list can you remember I can't remember that
00:51:34 no to what extent were you aware that the security service was a praise as to your targeting and progress in the swp yes I was aware of
00:51:42 that and how did you become aware of that well a myriad of things really I mean I think it was because you know the security service was one of our main uh main
00:51:57 main customers um so it was the public order aspect but it was also the subversive aspect of the security service so I knew that that consultation was quite
00:52:08 regular to what extent were you made aware of the security services preferences on the direction that you were
00:52:17 were taking um in at this point with regards to the Southwest London I don't I I don't recall having any feedback at all about the security service preference what about across your deployment were there preferences ever communicated to
00:52:28 there preferences ever communicated to you by your managers yes in in passing later the referring back to the lewisham issue that was something I learned about later but not during the time that the discussions were taking
00:52:46 place aside from this example were you ever made aware of any others other offers of assistance by the security service to you to assist you in your deployment no no I don't recall any
00:53:06 now is it right that your um s swp um infiltration started at lambus South that's correct proceeded to Southwest London sometimes known as tooting and Merton that's correct then there was a
00:53:17 Merton that's correct then there was a time in in Kingston where a new Branch was being established is that right um established would
00:53:28 established would be an attempt was made but it was fruit it was B it no fruit it wasn't worth going to explore that with you in due course all right okay um and then back to Southwest London is that right after that uh yes I and I think you finished
00:53:39 that uh yes I and I think you finished in Lamberth North is that correct that's correct now throughout your infiltration of the S swp did you remain at Branch level or did you escalate to party
00:53:54 level or did you escalate to party headquarters at any stage or Central level at any stage no no
00:54:00 what was there a reason that your deployment focused on Branch level infiltrations I I wasn't aware of any any specific reason no I think it was uh
00:54:13 any specific reason no I think it was uh the way of covering the organization was done by covering a branch level several places at the same time was there any
00:54:26 time was there any reason why you moved around branches uh I mean we know that in terms of Lambert's South you took the view that you you'd gotten all you could out of that was there any other reason for moving around branches it was get
00:54:40 moving around branches it was get getting to know as many people within the organization making their acquaintance as possible to what end so that I had a better understanding of the organization um but also the people um who are the activists within it
00:55:04 and how did you consider that getting to know those activists uh was going to assist you I in either counter subversion or uh M maintaining public order I think on the public order side if you knew that certain people were
00:55:15 if you knew that certain people were going to turn up or were involved um with the organization of a demonstration then you had an idea as to the importance that the
00:55:30 importance that the swp placed upon um attending in numbers uh but there were some people who were uh should we say often seen as the ones to ferment disorder um at the large events and so if person X was turning up um
00:55:43 if person X was turning up um then and and there were a large number of people going to be there then person X would probably be at a point where they would be promoting disorder
00:56:07 could we please look now at ucpi uh 1000 um 87 I think this is a document we've already seen uh [Music]
00:56:17 one87 should be c79 of the hard copy bundle uh this is a report dated the 18th of
00:56:18 18th of April uh
00:56:25 1990 uh where we can see that information will was provided uh in relation to uh a contact list is that
00:56:43 right yes there would be contact lists I think I'm referring to there how were you able to access uh information of of this nature
00:56:57 access uh information of of this nature well they were often drawn up by my own by my own collection um and occasionally when you um occasionally you would be given a list of people um that we were actually looking towards uh recruiting such as
00:57:08 looking towards uh recruiting such as people in educational establishments or whatever when you say drawn up was that
00:57:20 whatever when you say drawn up was that overtly as part of being a member of the swp or or
00:57:22 swp or or covertly uh the list no o overtly this would be an swp list of people that they wanted into into the
00:57:39 organization um can we um go now to ucpi 100094 which should be at c82 of the hard copy
00:57:50 bundle and this is a report dated the 4th of May 1990 um and Par graph uh
00:58:02 1990 um and Par graph uh two uh we can see that it um relates to a public meeting of thep aimed at creating a new Branch at Kingston I'll just I'll just read it the Socialist Workers Party uh held a public meeting at the bull and Bush Public House
00:58:18 at the bull and Bush Public House Washington Road Kingston upon tempar at 8:00 p.m. on Wednesday the 2nd of May 1990 it was the first of a series uh which is aimed at creating a new s swp Branch at Kingston it's anticipated that there will be another two meetings over the next few months after which the
00:58:32 the next few months after which the feasibility of a new Branch will be discussed the work involved is the responsibility of the party Southwest London Branch uh and Connor costic the swp South London
00:58:57 organizer so it uh seems from that document or what you recorded in DC that document was that the establishment of the Kingston Branch was the responsibility of the Southwest London branch is that right um that's correct yeah and Southwest London was the branch that you were
00:59:08 London was the branch that you were involved in at the time is that correct that's correct y um next please uh ucpi 10103 which is at c87 of the hard copy bundle
00:59:31 uh this is a uh report stated the 19th of June
00:59:33 of June 1990 again relating to this new Branch at Kingston reads as follows um during the week ending 17th of June 1990
00:59:45 the week ending 17th of June 1990 members of the Socialist Workers Party formed a new Branch at Kingston upon temps sorry the core of the branch currently 11 persons have come from the party Southwest London branch which will act as a parent to assist the Kingston
00:59:57 act as a parent to assist the Kingston Branch where necessary in its formative stage weekly meetings will be held at 8:00 p.m. on Wednesdays at the Bullen Bush Public House Washington Road Kingston This venue was chosen mainly because it is on the Cambridge estate a large Council estate from where it is
01:00:08 large Council estate from where it is hoped people will be attracted to the meetings and then please uh well does that does that support that there
01:00:27 that does that support that there were attempts to establish a new Branch at Kingston there were attempts yes um can we then go to 10108 please which is at c89 the hard copy
01:00:42 bundle and this is a report dated the 6th of July uh 1990 uh it's about the swp's recruitment campaign and paragraph two I won't read
01:00:56 campaign and paragraph two I won't read all of it but it says this the Socialist Workers Party is a gener still in High Spirits regarding its recruitment campaign there's still a steady flow of people joining the party although it is not at the same level as in Spring of this year new branches are still being formed and many existing branches are experiencing an increase in casual
01:01:11 experiencing an increase in casual attenders at public meetings for example attendance at Kingston Branch meetings has increased from about 11 persons when the branch was formed about a month ago to just over 20 so we can see you
01:01:22 to just over 20 so we can see you recording an increase in numbers in relation to to Kingston is that right yes but um it was very transitory it didn't last long no um ucpi
01:01:36 no um ucpi 27599
01:01:42 please that's at B27 of the hard copy
01:01:59 bundle and this is a security service note for file uh dat to the 19th of July 1990 you can see from the head of the document it's a record of a meeting between the security service and uh the SCS manager uh known as d86 and over at page two please
01:02:11 d86 and over at page two please paragraph uh 7 Under The Heading hn9 it says his new branch is tooting since his transfer from Lamberth but he is also helping set up a small branch in Kingston do you see that yes to what
01:02:25 Kingston do you see that yes to what extent were you involved in the setting up of a branch of the swp at Kingston it was really very much just in attendance
01:02:42 was really very much just in attendance um selling newspapers delivering Flyers um I I I also remember doing some fly posting down there so it's all those lowlevel
01:02:48 lowlevel activities uh but did you appreciate that that was with a view to establishing a new Branch yes and was that something you were asked to do or volunteered to do um I
01:03:00 asked to do or volunteered to do um I think I it would have been a combination of the two you know I don't know which came first but um I was certainly asked to help out um but I think I may have volunteered first I'm not
01:03:13 volunteered first I'm not sure and is it fair to say that one of the reasons for establishing a new branch is to increase or was to increase
01:03:24 increase or was to increase interest and increase the membership of the group yes
01:03:34 can we look now at ucpi 10140 please which is C 96 of the hard copy
01:03:47 bundle and this is an intelligence um report dat of the 11th of September 1990 it's again about the the Kingston Branch uh tells us the Kingston Branch upon Kingston upon T's branch of the social Workers Party currently consist of the following and gives us 12 names
01:03:59 of the following and gives us 12 names redacted for privacy although the branch has some 70 contacts brackets persons in the area who' have shown some interest
01:04:12 the area who' have shown some interest in the swp to some degree however small the following people maintain a close contact and might become uh party members in the future gives some names and details there do you see that yes I do and does that um does that report
01:04:25 do and does that um does that report report uh Accord with what you've just told us that part of the reason uh for uh establishing a new branch is to increase membership increase numbers
01:04:39 increase membership increase numbers generate interest in the group yeah yes that would be true now I won't um I won't take you to um the um relevant report unless uh unless you want to see it but I think
01:05:00 unless you want to see it but I think it's right that the the Kingston Branch ultimately didn't take take off did it no it didn't no and closed in around January 1991 is that right um that prob Yes somewhere around there but I that really is a long time ago I
01:05:15 but I that really is a long time ago I can't really remember it lasted a matter of months that's all Let's help you to be fair then ucpi 19780 which is at C15 of the hard copy bundle
01:05:32 you can see uh that's a report dated oh right 8th January 1991 and the opening paragraph on Wednesday the 2nd of January 1991 the Socialist Workers Party Clos its Kingston branch in
01:05:46 Party Clos its Kingston branch in Kingston upon temps do you see that yes that's yes got it and you're reporting that the um in the next paragraph that the the group failed to to grow as expected do you see that yes all
01:06:03 expected do you see that yes all right just want to go just back in time a little bit please um to U May 1990 this is ucpi
01:06:11 100095 it should be at c83 of the hard copy
01:06:18 bundle and this is a report dated the 10th of May 1990 which deals with a meeting of several branches of the swp uh to to encourage a recruitment
01:06:32 swp uh to to encourage a recruitment Drive uh and uh just want to take you to paragraph three
01:06:41 please uh which say begins um Cliff That's Tony Cliff who was a prominent uh individual within the swp I think that's right isn't it yes he spoke for about 45 minutes on the uh changing fortunes of
01:06:53 minutes on the uh changing fortunes of the party his speech was an update on a very similar one given by him at the party skegness rally in April nationally the swp is enjoying a rapid increase in
01:07:05 the swp is enjoying a rapid increase in membership which started in March and as yet has shown no signs of abating a number of new branches are in the process of being formed both in and out of London party membership uh has
01:07:17 of London party membership uh has increased by 400 over the last 5 weeks an increase not seen since the early 1970s that he gave specific examples
01:07:28 1970s that he gave specific examples such as the hutsfield Branch increasing from 7 to 15 members with another five non-members regularly attending uh an exploratory meeting at Kingson upon T TS was able to attract about 17 non-members do you see that I
01:07:46 do just give me a moment please
01:08:11 does it follow from what we've seen that um you had a role in uh seeking to established the branch at Kingston yes I did yes and does it
01:08:26 Kingston yes I did yes and does it follow from that that you had a role in assisting the group to uh
01:08:31 to uh attract further interests and new members
01:08:44 yes how did the potential to increase the swp's numbers align with what you were trying to achieve in the
01:08:55 field I wasn't obviously the one that suggested forming a branch should we say it King things it was going to happen anyway uh and so what I was trying to do was to if you like watch what was going on and report back about the swp
01:09:07 back about the swp membership you did you did I understand what you're saying but you did more than watch you as you told us earlier you put up posters you attended meetings yes that's right uh so it's right that to
01:09:19 that's right uh so it's right that to some extent is it not you facilitated the setting up of this branch however small Your Role may have been you had a role is that right yes I did yes and
01:09:34 role is that right yes I did yes and that the aim was to increase interest and increase membership in a group that um you would say at the time was
01:09:45 that um you would say at the time was subversive and a public order concern is that right yes yes how did that align with what the SDS was trying to achieve well I didn't see that the SDS was trying to achieve a shutdown um of political organizations but more to
01:09:59 political organizations but more to monitor what was going on than to be uh to report
01:10:01 to report back there's a distinction between monitoring uh though and facilitating the growth of a group is that fair
01:10:14 the growth of a group is that fair observation yes it is and is it I think you've accepted but is it fair to say that you accept that on this occasion you were involved in facilitating or attempting to facilitate the growth of the group
01:10:35 the group yes I was but my contribution would have made no difference to um whether that group um would have carried out that activity at Kingston or not might be a modest position because groups like that relied on people like you to put up posters and attend meetings
01:10:50 meetings and engage in th those sorts of matters isn't that right yes yes can we look at um public order please in the context of the swp and the
01:11:02 please in the context of the swp and the next document I'd like you to look at is ucpi
01:11:09 30304 uh which is at c137 of the hard copy
01:11:19 bundle and this is a report dated the 13th of December 1991 can see that uh attributed to you hn22 another SDS UCO and other
01:11:39 sources um and it's a report that deals uh with a demonstration against Jean Marie Le Pen who was a French right-wing politician uh that demonstration being
01:11:50 politician uh that demonstration being outside a central London hotel where uh Mr Leen was attending an event uh uh and I just want to to read uh some of this report out please um starting at paragraph three it says a number of leftwing organizations were
01:12:04 number of leftwing organizations were represented in the crowd that gathered in the for court of the hotel an adjacent railway station these included the Socialist Workers Party the Revolutionary Communist Party socialist
01:12:19 Revolutionary Communist Party socialist Outlook and anti-racist Alliance by 8:30 p.m. what had been a vifer crowd from the start became disorderly after staging a sitdown in the Strand itself the protesters made their way down to traal Square causing predictable travel chaos arriving back at the hotel about 9:30 p.m. by this time several of their
01:12:34 9:30 p.m. by this time several of their number had been arrested and there being no sign of Leen uh swp members were urged to make their way to souk Park Road se16 the following morning as it was about as it was rumored that Leen would try to do a
01:12:48 was rumored that Leen would try to do a walkabout then they they then dispersed the RCP presence on the evening was restricted to two branches about 40 members who confin their action to selling pap and took no part in the disorderly March around rafala Square uh the apparent low uh
01:13:02 Square uh the apparent low uh profile uh taken by the police on this occasion appeared to encourage the swp
01:13:14 occasion appeared to encourage the swp organizers to escalate the disorder in a crowd already angered by what they saw to be fascist provocation it is estimated that swp members and supporters num numbered about 300 and represented perhaps uh a third of the total number present their organizing
01:13:27 total number present their organizing were able to influence the entire crowd mainly because of the very limited presence of police on this occasion a factor which undoubtedly gave him Dutch
01:13:39 courage now were you present can you recollect at that
01:13:50 demonstration I believe I was yes I was present can you remember what you saw or heard that gave rise to the observations that you recorded in paragraph six in
01:14:07 that you recorded in paragraph six in other words um encouragement forgive me the swp organizers uh seeking to escalate disorder C can you remember
01:14:19 escalate disorder C can you remember what you saw or heard that uh made you note that down not specifically in relation to this event no I can't remember can you remember what sort of disorder occurred at that event it would have been a non-cooperation with police moving in
01:14:35 non-cooperation with police moving in direction as you uh to trafala square uh causing traffic chaos bringing just general um unruliness to the uh to the event so we're not but I can't specifically remember that one that particular event we're not talking
01:14:47 particular event we're not talking violence or rioting or anything like that no no all right not that I recall can you remember how you participated in this
01:15:03 this event I was simply there I wouldn't have taken part in any of the um pushing and the shoving you know against police lines that sort of thing if that was in indeed took place but you know I I my my aim obviously as well was to avoid arrest so I wasn't going to put myself
01:15:18 arrest so I wasn't going to put myself in any position where people would start to say oan provocator or um you know actually involved in the disorder itself I had to make sure I was detached from that were any of the
01:15:31 that were any of the organizers uh that are recorded to have been involved in escalating disorder were any of them people you associated with um I I can't
01:15:42 with um I I can't remember can you remember how you responded to um efforts to try and escalate the situation well I I simply wouldn't have done so you wouldn't have
01:15:55 wouldn't have done so you wouldn't have done anything well I wouldn't have done anything to escalate the situation no but what about others efforts to try and escalate it would you have tried to talk people out of it or calm them down or anything like
01:16:08 anything like that not that I can remember no um is there a reason why you wouldn't well it's just um well first of all you you will show out and you'll compromise yourself if you start doing something like that where
01:16:19 start doing something like that where clearly the the rest of those gathered uh have got are intent on something else I think possibly my attempts would have
01:16:30 I think possibly my attempts would have been futile anyway um and obviously you know I would have wanted not to have drawn attention to myself in that way um to the
01:16:36 to the organization could we now look at ucpi 10229 which is at c43 of the hard copy bundle
01:17:10 and um this is a uh report dated the 15th of August 1989 about the time to go March uh and um I'm just going to um look at paragraphs 2 and three says on the 12th of August 1989 the Socialist
01:17:24 the 12th of August 1989 the Socialist Workers Party took part in the time to go March and Carnival in North London now just pausing there was uh was uh uh time to go uh a March promoting the
01:17:36 time to go uh a March promoting the removal of British troops from Northern Ireland I believe so now from approximately 10:30 a.m. demonstrators began arriving at wittington Park holay Road and9 for the March after a short
01:17:48 Road and9 for the March after a short rally the March consisting of several thousand demonstrators set off at approximately 1: p.m. for the carnival
01:17:59 approximately 1: p.m. for the carnival at finsy Park the March was good humored and orderly as far as the majority of s swp members were concerned it was understood that the party had called for a mobilization of London branches and that it was not a national callout in the event that there were there were a
01:18:10 the event that there were there were a considerable number of non-london SW swp branches represented some from as far as Edinburgh it's not known how many swp members attended since many members
01:18:23 members attended since many members marched under their workplace Union B banners
01:18:31 banners uh but several thousand attendees uh uh you reported uh and would you agree that's not an insignificant number um it's not an insignificant number no um I don't recall anything about this event I'm afraid all right
01:18:48 about this event I'm afraid all right just want to look at another uh couple of events and then um and then we'll we'll move on uh ucpi 10144 uh that's at c98 of the copy
01:19:03 bundle this is a report dat of the 17th of September 1990 uh in relation to a stop the war in the Gulf um
01:19:16 demonstration uh and paragraph two uh states that on Saturday the 15th of September 1990 the Socialist Workers Party took part in a demonstration in central London organized by the
01:19:27 central London organized by the committee to stop the war in stop war in the Gulf the swp Central Committee had called for party branches Nationwide to attend but on the day only about 6 to 7,000 members forgive me 6 to 700
01:19:41 7,000 members forgive me 6 to 700 members forgive me supported the event uh there was no intention of either causing disorder or taking control of
01:19:52 causing disorder or taking control of the march from the cswg do you see that yes I've got it and then just one more example please uh ucpi uh 1 19905 which should be at c146 of the hard copy
01:20:14 bundle uh this is a report attributed to U hn 78 and other sources dated the 23rd of January 1992 uh and it relates to an anti-asylum
01:20:26 1992 uh and it relates to an anti-asylum Bill demonstration in central London and I just want to look at what it says at paragraph 6 at page AG two
01:20:28 two um this happy State of Affairs was marred only briefly by minor incident of disorder at the Northern end of Park Lane where a small group of national front supporters numbering only about
01:20:43 front supporters numbering only about half a dozen had congregated outside the groer hotel on the east side of Park Lane securing the knowledge of the Detachment of the territorial support group or in the immediate vicinity these right-wing supporters shouted obscenities and displayed the Union Jack Flag and NF Publications to taunt the
01:20:56 Flag and NF Publications to taunt the Marchers uh this succeeded in provoking a number of the latter into Crossing uh the central reservation in a half-hearted attack to the obvious
01:21:09 half-hearted attack to the obvious dismay of some members of red action Dam so that's a direct action movement uh the situation was quickly diffused by police in fact s swp organizers uh themselves had been urging uh the Marchers to continue and not render uh
01:21:23 Marchers to continue and not render uh not render themselves Lar to arrest thus conforming with their policy of opposing fashionism and racism as National issues rather than targeting uh individuals and just want to focus in on what the swp
01:21:37 just want to focus in on what the swp was doing all right not what any other group was doing but what the swp was doing and it seems from what you uh uh what you were uh reporting there is that the swp organizers were were in effect
01:21:51 the swp organizers were were in effect um encouraging uh its uh me members an adherence not to engage in any disorder or anything like that is that a fair summary yes I don't remember the event
01:22:03 summary yes I don't remember the event but that's a su that's a face summary of what I've said
01:22:13 yes does it follow um from
01:22:15 from um those examples that it's fair to say that the S swp was not a group that was uh
01:22:28 uh consistently Troublesome or consistently attracted trouble at larger scale events or events in central London that sort of thing um yes they weren't always you
01:22:44 thing um yes they weren't always you know it it um at some some events they were there and they were happy to be involved in disorder but it was mainly in relation to the police more than anyone else whereas this one I've reported on here at um Park Lane seems
01:23:00 reported on here at um Park Lane seems to be the um the swp didn't like to get into confrontation um with um extreme right wing uh should we say um would you would you forgive me I interrupted you
01:23:15 would you forgive me I interrupted you sorry sorry so I'm sort of talking they didn't want to get in often involved with the the the thuggery that we sometimes saw you know between Football H Hooligans by by individuals um and yes it's that um at certain events um they
01:23:27 it's that um at certain events um they didn't want to get involved in trouble at all Full Stop would you accept that amongst those examples we can see
01:23:40 amongst those examples we can see positive efforts to dissuade or dissuade from disorder or diffuse disorder yes that would be
01:23:45 fair and does it follow from that that it was a group that um didn't with any regularity or consistency promote or attract act or involve himself in disorder wasn't
01:23:59 involve himself in disorder wasn't something swp and disorder didn't come hand in hand no not at
01:24:13 all um could we look at um bear with me please uh ucpi
01:24:15 ucpi uh
01:24:18 uh one87 forgive me this is a document we've already seen it's a c79 of the hard copy bundle one 0087 just moving on to another topic related to the
01:24:42 swp and we're back to the the contact list that um you gave evidence about a little while
01:24:52 ago um what was the purpose of providing details of people who were not at that stage involved with the S swp um simply because they might be at a later stage and obviously identification would have been easier with um past
01:25:04 would have been easier with um past information did you not consider it overly intrusive to report details of members of the public who were not
01:25:16 members of the public who were not involved in the Target group at the time no I didn't looking back um would you accept that that is uh overly intrusive um
01:25:25 um I think now with the way things have changed over sort of 40 years then yes probably there's uh there's less of an appetite to get involved in reporting
01:25:40 appetite to get involved in reporting that s sort of stuff but at the time it was considered all useful Gris to the mill as it
01:25:46 were by less of an appetite isn't isn't the reality that the these were um people who W involved in the group at the time
01:25:59 the time no isn't the reality that there's really there was really no business in recording their details whether we're talking about now or then well I think then um there was otherwise I think my reporter would have
01:26:11 otherwise I think my reporter would have been um sent back to me and said this is what we don't do but but what what what was the necess necessity of reporting the details of these
01:26:20 these individuals it was information that possibly might be useful at a latest age so uh just to pick up on your
01:26:31 age so uh just to pick up on your wording yeah uh what is the height of the value the possibility of this information being of use at some point and no
01:26:37 and no higher some of them would have joined and become members some of them may have become prominent members um how many of them probably
01:26:54 them probably only you know uh one or two if at all um but at that time that's what the report ing that's what that's how we reported on these events um and and individuals that came to our notice in that way now I think you explain in your
01:27:12 way now I think you explain in your witness statement for um your assistance it's at page 16 paragraph 55 that whilst um deployed into the swp that one of the jobs you undertook was picking up copies of the the swp newspaper from servis and railways
01:27:24 newspaper from servis and railways station for South London and and the eventually defunct Kingston branches to sell on is that right uh yes that's correct yeah and you Dro them off to the relevant organizers homes each week yes
01:27:41 relevant organizers homes each week yes that was it or took them to the meetings yeah
01:27:42 yeah um and uh I think you also um say that you gave frequent lists
01:27:54 um say that you gave frequent lists lifts to a female activist who lived on on the route to one of your regular meetings is that right that's correct yeah and did you
01:28:06 yeah and did you ever visit anybody's homes whilst undertaking these tasks um yes um I think um it's in the order of about three or
01:28:18 three or four can you remember for what reason
01:28:27 four can you remember for what reason you you you'd go into somebody's private home uh by usually well on one occasion it was literally to repair a punctured bicycle tire um on another occasion somebody invited me in while I waited and he pulled all his papers together
01:28:44 and he pulled all his papers together and we went off um on another occasion I was giving somebody a lift somewhere on a longdistance journey so again I was invited in for a cup of tea while he packed his bag um did you
01:28:55 bag um did you consider entering uh the homes of your targets to be intrusive no I didn't and in hindsight no I
01:29:08 don't were you not able to to make your excuses and find a way of avoiding having to go into their homes um on these three occasions I didn't see that that was um necessary why didn't you think it was
01:29:20 why didn't you think it was intrusive the people had invited me into their
01:29:24 their homes um yes all right they didn't know I was a police officer no they didn't know who you really were did they they didn't know no so just thinking about it just
01:29:35 no so just thinking about it just bearing that in mind in hindsight intrusive or
01:29:42 not I don't think
01:29:56 so how would you feel if somebody who wasn't who they said they were coming to your house and had a cup of
01:30:05 tea well I you know the circumstances haven't Arisen so you're asking me now um I can't see why anyone want to come into my house not know you know without knowing what I was
01:30:16 knowing what I was um um yes Pro probably um yes I would think i' probably be I wouldn't say AG
01:30:27 think i' probably be I wouldn't say AG grieved but I'd be especially curious as to what on Earth was going on I
01:30:40 think did you ever give any thought to um the um proprietary of giving frequent lifts to the particular female activists
01:30:51 lifts to the particular female activists that you used to take was it to and from meetings yes that's right yeah uh did you give any thought as to whether that Arrangement risks you
01:31:04 whether that Arrangement risks you becoming too close I'm not suggesting in an Amorous way but in a way that may have become intrusive no I didn't I I didn't think so
01:31:11 so no because presumably but don't let me put words in into your in your mouth but presumably when you're driving a an
01:31:23 presumably when you're driving a an associate back and forth you you would chat
01:31:27 chat yes yes uh you would discuss things about your lives yes
01:31:40 um did you not consider that to be overly intrusive I didn't know why not I I had a job to do and getting to know people was part of that
01:31:53 job did from your recollection did that individual evidence discuss matters of a private or personal nature with you such as family or work or anything like that
01:32:09 as family or work or anything like that um yes work um family I don't recall uh I mean all of the people I'm that are coming to my mind were all unmarried didn't have families um but work certainly people did talk
01:32:21 um but work certainly people did talk about their work in the same way that I talked about my uh the work that I um had as my cover it's part of normal I saw it as part of normal
01:32:37 conversation can I um ask you next about um your trip to um skes uh and can we start please at um MPS
01:32:50 MPS 0723 56 which is at B2 of the hard copy bundle
01:33:17 now um these are the diary notes of um h& 51 Martin gray who was I think the SDS detective Chief Inspector in 1990 and if we could go to page four
01:33:26 please uh we can see uh for the entries about center of the page April 1990 Friday the 13th hn9 OMD does that mean outside the Metropolitan Police District that's
01:33:40 Metropolitan Police District that's correct all right ompd to skes to 15th of April do you see that yes I do and if we go to ucpi
01:33:51 100088 that's c80 C8 of the hard copy bundle ucpi 100088
01:34:05 I'm not going to go to through this report in any detail but we can see it's uh dated the 24th of April 1990 and paragraph 2 IT addresses the swp's annual easts to rally at the skeg sand Holiday Camp over the weekend of Friday the 30th of May through to Monday the 16th of April
01:34:16 through to Monday the 16th of April 1990 do you see that yes and does it follow that you went to the rally at skes yes yes I did what was the purpose of attending the rally well it was my
01:34:28 of attending the rally well it was my deployment as a member of the Socialist Workers Party did you discuss attendance with your managers oh yes did they agree to your attending
01:34:40 to your attending yes did you maintain contact with the SDS office or your managers whilst you're at the rally I don't remember um I imagine I
01:34:53 rally I don't remember um I imagine I probably would have done bear in mind everything was public telephones at that time no mobile phones Etc I'm I'm pretty certain I would have found time to
01:35:07 certain I would have found time to report back yes so calling from a public phone um within the estate where the rally was taking place or would you have to find somewhere outside of the Holiday Camp somewhere more
01:35:20 discreet uh and I think you tell us it's at page 16 paragraph 55 for your assistance of your witness statement you tell us that you drove at least one
01:35:33 tell us that you drove at least one activist up to skes that's correct can you remember if it was one or or more than one I can remember it was one person yeah male or female male and you also say in your witness statement that you're one of four people this is a paragraph 49 page 14 one of
01:35:48 this is a paragraph 49 page 14 one of four people who rented a caravan which was a a little distance from the main conference venue do you remember that yes
01:35:59 um was the group staying in the Caravan was it all men or men mix of men and women um it was a mix can you remember how many men how many women I seem to
01:36:11 how many men how many women I seem to recall it was uh two men two women how many beds did the Caravan have do you remember I can't remember but I was in a a birth of my own uh so sleeping Arrangements you had your own bed is that right yes
01:36:34 were your managers aware of these accommodation Arrangements I I think they would have been I you know an explan full explanation of my arrangements would have been given but I don't recall having that
01:36:52 conversation does it follow from that that you can't assist me with what their attitude would have been to you sharing accommodation in this way well they they weren't opposed to it um because obviously I wouldn't have done it
01:37:06 see did you not consider it an intrusion to spend time with others in a in a confined space like this um no I didn't why
01:37:15 why not I just simply didn't see it as an
01:37:24 intrusion this would have been somewhere where you
01:37:25 where you were
01:37:32 were presumably changing eating drinking doing
01:37:36 doing ordinary they were it was only sleeping Arrangements that took place there uh and as it happened on that occasion only one other person stayed for one night um the others found friends Etc that they met at conference and stayed at a more
01:37:50 met at conference and stayed at a more convenient location namely on the site as opposed to the Caravan that I was in which was possibly a mile or two two away as far as you were aware however
01:38:01 away as far as you were aware however the plan was that four of you were going to share for the duration of the conference that's correct yeah and you didn't you didn't see any difficulty in that I didn't no um was there any reason why you didn't arrange accommodation just for
01:38:18 just for yourself um I I don't recall I think at the time I would have it would have appeared extremely odd because that's the way the organiz you know the the branches operated everyone mucked into you know accommodation together and to
01:38:29 you know accommodation together and to seek accommodation elsewhere would have would have made me stand out were these others members of your branch or were they yes members of the branch
01:38:41 they yes members of the branch yeah did you consider the swp to be a subversive group I did
01:38:55 yes just want to take you uh to page 26 it's just for your benefit page 26 par paragraph 143 of your witness
01:39:12 statement sorry could you give me a yes of course page 46 and it's a paragraph 143 which should be right at the
01:39:22 bottom yeah um I'm just going to read what you say there you say the swp was certainly uh subversive in its aims although in hindsight it seems unlikely that it had the ability to bring about Revolution and the destruction of the
01:39:35 Revolution and the destruction of the capitalist system I do not believe it was unjustified this is reference to your deployment because if it had not been monitored it would not have been possible to assess the Potential Threat to public order or the risk of subversion uh there are public order
01:39:53 subversion uh there are public order concerns because of the numbers that the swp could attract or uh add to others others
01:39:58 others demonstrations in my view the swp uh was not involved in criminality other than fly posting although there are probably those among its membership who did engage in
01:40:19 crime does that assessment of You by the group apply to how you perceived the swp to be throughout the whole of the time that you employed into into the group yes um just want to take you to something else you say this time at paragraph 166 which is at page 52 of your witness
01:40:33 statement
01:40:41 yeah um and uh
01:40:43 uh yes just uh right at the bottom of the page you tell us none of the activity I witnessed whilst I was deployed as a UC was directly subversive did you see that
01:40:59 was directly subversive did you see that yes yeah and then page 52 still but this time paragraph
01:41:11 1064 at the first sentence of that paragraph I did not witness any violence to people or property firsthand while I was a UC and I certainly didn't participate in any do you see that yes I do but we can see from your paragraphs 162 to 163 so that's Pages 51 to 52 of
01:41:25 162 to 163 so that's Pages 51 to 52 of your witness statement you say you did witness some public disorder whilst you were
01:41:30 were deployed yes what sort of public disorder did you see well it was basically very often it was the pushing and shoving and the failure to comply with police Direction um and sometimes it was
01:41:53 Direction um and sometimes it was um certain members of the swp would um incite others to uh others to do the same
01:42:00 same um so limited does do I understand you correctly limited to non-cooperation with the police yes and degree of violence if you like is all sort of pushing and shoving that sort of thing I didn't see anyone um assault a police
01:42:11 didn't see anyone um assault a police officer direct you know in the way that the general public would perceive an assault although technically legally it might
01:42:22 be does it follow from um what you've said in your witness statement that in your assessment your infiltration of the swp was was was really only potentially justifiable on public order
01:42:35 justifiable on public order grounds at at the time of my deployment at the time of your deployment at the I didn't I regarded it as two things it
01:42:46 didn't I regarded it as two things it was public order and it was um it was the interest of the of the security service in the organization and its membership you say that but um you said that it seemed unlikely that the group had the ability to bring about
01:43:06 Revolution I'm reminded in hid sight it seemed unlikely that the S swp had the ability to bring about Revolution and the destruction of the capitalist system so looking back mhm yeah is the only
01:43:18 so looking back mhm yeah is the only justification that was available uh for this
01:43:22 this infiltration one uh on public order grounds
01:43:30 well looking back um yes but that wasn't my information obviously in my understanding and belief at the time all right well we'll revisit um public order in the swp a little later
01:43:49 public order in the swp a little later when we look at some other documents but I just want to just move on now to um some antipole tax activity that you reported
01:43:53 reported on uh and it's right that you provided intelligence in relation to anti antipole tax demonstrations and and um public events is that right that's right
01:44:07 public events is that right that's right and what was the reason for uh providing intelligence in relation to that again public
01:44:11 public order could we look at ucpi [Music]
01:44:13 [Music] 10199 please ucpi
01:44:20 10199 it's a c36 of the hard copy
01:44:31 bundle and this is a uh report about a March and rally against the pole tax that was organized by the group Lamberth against the pole
01:44:43 group Lamberth against the pole tax uh and uh at Pages two and three just um we can see
01:44:53 um mentions an ident identifications of
01:45:04 identifications of individuals uh that were involved in your in clag and workers power so I think we can see uh on page two we can see someone just below Center got WP beside their name it's workers power isn't it yes
01:45:15 name it's workers power isn't it yes that's right uh and then over over to the next
01:45:16 the next page uh Steve Maron WP correct underneath that some another name WP
01:45:29 underneath that some another name WP yeah and then uh just before the groups are listed uh another name with a clag against his or her name and then another name with workers power against it yeah and it's right that at this point
01:45:43 yeah and it's right that at this point of your deployment you weren't involved any longer in in clag or or workers power and your deployment have been targeted against the swp for some time is that right that's correct
01:46:01 is that right that's correct uh why were you still reporting on uh the members of clag and workers power when by this time your infiltration was focused on the swp um because it it it
01:46:14 swp um because it it it um gives more of a um an indication as to who were going to these demonstrations which groups were being involved I think in your witness statement and just to be fair to you at page 34 paragraph
01:46:31 page 34 paragraph 110 um you make the comment that you say uh I still recognize individuals and would report their presence at an event because it added something to the intelligence picture however limited it was all Grist to the mill do you see that yes I do Gris to the mill I think
01:46:44 that yes I do Gris to the mill I think was an expression you use a few minutes ago I did yes
01:46:55 yeah um how was a a Gris to the Miller reconcilable with reporting information that you believed might have some
01:47:09 value well the the value are we referring to my um Lamberth against the PO tax report in this context um the value in it was because we had uh I wasn't just reporting on the swp members there but my report hopefully was
01:47:23 there but my report hopefully was indicating that certain individuals one or two of them prominent from workers power so it was starting to give a a broad brush approach namely these are the these are the organizations that are taking in interest in antio tax
01:47:39 activity so it more than just the swp as my specific Target there was other collateral information um namely the attendance of uh workers power and um
01:47:53 attendance of uh workers power and um clag when you say however limited it was all Gris to the mill what what did you mean when using the word
01:48:04 limited like the um I wasn't reporting in any depth here on workers power or clag it it was just
01:48:16 on workers power or clag it it was just as I say it's just adding something else to it to say look these organ these people have turned up and if these people have turned up people reading this report would say oh yes okay well if work of power turning out B this cause of uh Lambeth against the PO tax
01:48:31 cause of uh Lambeth against the PO tax is attracting a wide range of political activism and later on um I think was after this report we saw um considerable disorder down in Lambeth prior to the main um uh ptax riot in um
01:48:50 main um uh ptax riot in um April um let's um move on to that Riot can we look um at one57 ucpi 1
01:49:07 z57 which should be at c65 of the hard copy
01:49:11 copy bundle and that's a report dated the 13th of uh February 1990 uh and we can see from paragraph to it relates to an inaugural meeting of the London antipole tax
01:49:24 the London antipole tax Federation uh and just picking it up right at the end of paragraph 5 the report reads um the main task of um lap PTF is at present to organize for a mass demonstration in central London on Saturday the 31st of March
01:49:37 Saturday the 31st of March 1990 and that is the event is it not that became known as the pole tax Riot of of 1990 in central that's correct all um can we then go to ucpi 1 00063
01:49:57 uh which is at c69 of the hard copy bundle and that's dat forgive
01:50:13 bundle and that's dat forgive me a report dated the 23rd of February 1990 uh and um we can see uh there paragraph
01:50:14 paragraph two uh it's uh confirmatory is it not that the uh uh pole tax March or antio tax March had been organized to take
01:50:28 tax March had been organized to take place for the 31st of March in 1990 y that's correct all right um so I'm going to remain um on on the pole tax Riot but um a discret topic within it is that a convenient moment
01:50:43 within it is that a convenient moment yes certainly um we'll um rise for 15 minutes thank
01:50:51 you
02:06:20 e e
02:07:20 so I think we're absent um representatives from the commissioner's lawyers
02:07:32 pass the time when they knew we were to start so if they're absent I'm afraid um that's their Lookout very well thanks Rachel um
02:07:37 Rachel um hn9
02:07:38 hn9 um just to assist you
02:07:45 you um two parts of your witness statement the first is at page 27 paragraph 87
02:07:53 and the
02:08:00 second at page 43 uh paragraph
02:08:15 133 you uh explain how the um police had underestimated the number of people that were due to take part in the uh antio tax antio tax
02:08:28 part in the uh antio tax antio tax demonstration of the 30th of March 1990 is that right that's correct um now I just want to look at page 27
02:08:37 page 27 um paragraph 87 with you um this reads as follows um on one occasion DCI Martin
02:08:52 follows um on one occasion DCI Martin gray provided us with an npss estimate that a pole tax protest would attract between 5 and 8,000 demonstrators and he invited us to comment while I've not been able to find a report on the
02:09:05 been able to find a report on the subject in my witness pack I know that the number that a number of us instinctively felt that the estimate was far too low between us we provided information that led to this estimate
02:09:17 information that led to this estimate being revise upwards to somewhere in the order of 15,000 protesters and I understand that this is the figure that the MPS plan to as it was even official estimates uh plac the actual attendance at over 40,000
02:09:30 at over 40,000 demonstrators uh while the MPS numbers were inadequate to police this number uh and avoid all trouble uh the outcome would have been much worse if the
02:09:46 would have been much worse if the original estimates had been relied on do you see that yes and I think it's right there that you are referring to the uh demonstration of the 31st of March 19 90 that's correct thank you
02:10:03 um how did antipole tax activity feature if at all in your infiltration of the S
02:10:15 if at all in your infiltration of the S swp the S swp was heavily involved in um the the the whole issue um as were a whole Myriad of other organizations and so my placement within
02:10:29 organizations and so my placement within the s swp uh gave me insight into the uh events leading up to the uh pole tax uh Riot as we call
02:10:42 it now you've told us that you and others provided a higher figure than the initial police estimates figure you reached was 15,000 due to attend uh um sorry um 15,000 was the
02:10:58 attend uh um sorry um 15,000 was the revised yes thing I said uh personally I said it was going to be as big as the CND demonstration of forget how many years before so my estimate was probably around 30,000 people all right well I was going to come to that what I want
02:11:10 was going to come to that what I want you to to focus on is not what anybody else uh was doing so be careful as to names fields of deployment but what the information that you were getting as a result of your infiltration yeah
02:11:28 result of your infiltration yeah and how did you come to reach the figure that you did it was a it was a broad um estimation or if You' like almost a guess but I knew that by the interest that was being taken by all of the other
02:11:40 that was being taken by all of the other groups um located in the area that I was working in um that means the geographical area rather than um political area that workers power Etc
02:11:56 political area that workers power Etc city of Le antio they were and they were even small groups that sprung up solely for the purpose of protesting against the the the levy of the pole tax um and so I realized that the level of political activism within the communities as well as the political
02:12:10 communities as well as the political organizations was Far Far higher than anything I had seen previously so you tell us your estimate 30,000 but does it follow from what you've said in your statement that the figure settled on by the DS was in the
02:12:28 figure settled on by the DS was in the region of 15,000 that was that was the police the police I.E special Branch assessment came to 15,000 let
02:12:35 see um all
02:12:47 right just going to look at uh Another Part Of Your witness statement now which is at page 43 paragraph
02:12:55 133 uh just bear with me
02:13:15 please and it says there um that it seems that the note dated of 23rd of May 1990 I'll take you to that note in due course all right refers to the reassessment of number MERS attending a pole tax demonstration that was based on information from myself and other uos that I've referred to
02:13:29 other uos that I've referred to paragraph 87 above I would have based my assessment on what I knew of South London swp's plans for the event and others would have contributed from their group's perspectives I've not seen a report that deals with this but it could be that each of us responded to the
02:13:40 be that each of us responded to the initial assessment orally at an SDS meeting and are debunking of it was passed on by telephone rather than it being put into a typed report
02:13:59 uh and uh you make reference to official numbers or official estimates being over 40,000 uh is it right that there there are estimates that that that go far far higher than that figure as well that's correct yeah I mean this was a massive demonstration yeah yeah 40,000 was used
02:14:12 demonstration yeah yeah 40,000 was used because we knew that trafala square was full and generally a full trafala Square means 40,000 people
02:14:29 does it follow then that um as it happened the the estimate that was settled upon by um the Metropolitan Police uh regardless of your input
02:14:43 Police uh regardless of your input remained an underestimate yes it did
02:14:55 yes now I just want to take you to the document that you refer to in your witness statement which is MPS 07
02:15:05 31639 0731 639 and that's at tab b2a of the hard copy
02:15:18 bundle and could we go to um did we go to well I think there's a note that's yes go to page 15
02:15:26 please thank
02:15:34 you and we this is a note date of the 23rd of
02:15:36 23rd of May um and I'm just going to read 33d
02:15:49 May um and I'm just going to read 33d May 1990 I'm just going to read some of this out um DCI it's authored by Les willingale uh acting Chief superintendent uh and it reads um DCI Gray's comprehensive report at 27A records yet another successful year for the
02:16:02 another successful year for the SDS uh 1989 saw a decrease in hostile demonstrations compared with the previous 12 months but this year has seen a Resurgence of political activity activity chiefly in opposition to the government's introduction of the
02:16:15 government's introduction of the community charge this action came to a head on the 31st of March 1990 when 35,000 persons supported the national anti-pol ta rally in central London which degenerated into some of the most violent scenes ever witnessed in the
02:16:30 violent scenes ever witnessed in the capital whilst the level of violence on that day took Everyone by surprise the SS nevertheless proved uh an invaluable source of information and enable special
02:16:44 source of information and enable special Branch to provide our uniform colleagues with an accurate assessment uh of the numbers likely to take part uh and disposition of the groups involved subsequent to those events the SS has also Illustrated its post demonstration value that by identifying from
02:16:57 value that by identifying from photographs 10 individuals committing offenses during the rally this surge of Street activity has again highlighted the need for continued monitoring of extremist political organizations which
02:17:09 extremist political organizations which pose a threat to the maintenance of Law and
02:17:24 Order does it follow um that given that the document uh says that 35,000 people supported the rally and and your evidence is that the
02:17:38 rally and and your evidence is that the figure that was reached by the police as an estimate in advance of the event was around 15
02:17:42 around 15 15,000 does it follow that it was incorrect to state in that document that an accurate assessment of numbers likely to take part in the pole tax demonstration was
02:17:55 demonstration was provided yes according to the information that I've been working on which is I understood it to be 15,000 this figure 35,000 obviously the two things don't uh match thank
02:18:07 two things don't uh match thank you uh could we now uh move on to another topic um uh I'm just going to look at a uh report at ucpi
02:18:22 report at ucpi 10135 please which is at c94 of the hard copy
02:18:32 bundle thank
02:18:40 you just forgive me um H and9 as I catch up
02:18:46 up um this is a report date of the 29th of August
02:18:47 August [Music]
02:18:48 [Music] 1990 uh and it um deals with we can see at paragraph 2 a member of the Kingston branch of the swp so that branch that didn't
02:18:59 swp so that branch that didn't survive uh I just want to read out what paragraph 2 says at privacy a member of the Kingston branch of the Socialist Workers Party claims that he has been called upon the S upon by the swp
02:19:12 called upon the S upon by the swp solicitor privacy to appear as a defense witness for a person details unknown charge in connection with the antio tax rout at Trafalga Square on the 31st of March 1990 apparently the person charged was identified by police from photographic
02:19:29 identified by police from photographic evidence uh on the photograph's concern supplied to the defense privacy was identified uh by the swp can you remember what uh the circumstances were it in which you came to obtain this
02:19:48 information I don't remember um writing that
02:19:48 that report um but the C
02:20:00 circumstances I think this would have been I'm I'm guessing but I think this would have been in conversation with somebody um a member of the branch who would have told me um about this this scenario is that what you're talking
02:20:12 scenario is that what you're talking about are you referring to the process of identifying you you've answered my question okay um what was the policing purpose of reporting that someone was potentially going to act as a witness for someone else in criminal
02:20:37 proceedings that it was the kind of things that we we simply reported we did report this kind of
02:20:48 material does this hark back to what you told us earlier in evidence about some of your reporting particularly in the early days um including as much information as you could recollect and
02:21:00 could recollect and record um I I that would be fair to say yes I think so in retrospect would you agree that there was no value in reporting about this sort of information
02:21:12 um yes I Pro I'd agree with that in in
02:21:19 hindsight what did you think would be done with intelligence of this nature um again it would just Pro it would just provide information that
02:21:30 would just provide information that solicitors are being engaged um but the S swp is solicitor is being engaged um in regard to people being charged from
02:21:43 in regard to people being charged from photographic evidence provided um by the by the identifications done possibly by others but by SDS officers in part now be being careful with names
02:21:54 part now be being careful with names please because this might this question may trespass on the identities of members of the public um did you ever
02:22:05 members of the public um did you ever attend any meetings or take part in any discussions where lawyers were present and providing advice no no
02:22:17 never at the time of your deployment did you have any understanding of what was meant by the protection afforded by legal professional privilege yes what was your understanding of what legal
02:22:31 was your understanding of what legal professional privilege involved that's a the content of a conversation between a solicitor and his client um was um privileged information and the and you
02:22:43 privileged information and the and you know any reporting of it was um you know subject to special um treatment during your time on the SDS did you receive any guidance or training on what legal PR
02:22:54 guidance or training on what legal PR professional privilege involved or was all
02:22:57 all about um I I think I would have got that early be before SDS before SDS yeah during your time on the SDS did you receive any guidance or training on what to do if you found yourself in a
02:23:10 to do if you found yourself in a situation where you became privy to information covered by Legal Professional privilege I don't recall any training no and what about in advance of your time the
02:23:25 time the STDs um as to what to do is what to do um I think I must have done uh but I can't remember what it is and I can't remember the content of it
02:23:36 remember the content of it either during your time on the SDS did you receive any guidance or training on whether it was appropriate to report information that was subject to Legal Professional
02:23:50 to Legal Professional privilege well I I mean this is the I didn't take this as being um uh subject to Legal privilege um so I wasn't in that uh you know I was aware
02:24:07 wasn't in that uh you know I was aware of what it was and the you know uh that it was different um but I don't recall ever having been in that situation that I needed to ask and find out and say right what do I do here at
02:24:19 out and say right what do I do here at this point obviously I would have gone to um my managers had I come been in that scenario which I didn't regard this as I'm sorry so had you been in a situation where you
02:24:30 so had you been in a situation where you were uh privy to what you consider to be priv privileged information is your evidence that you would have taken advice from your managers yes absolutely yeah
02:24:41 managers yes absolutely yeah and appreciate that this is somewhat speculative but would would going to your man managers involve disclosing the information that you were privy
02:24:57 the information that you were privy to um I think I would have done yes to explain the uh to explain what I'd
02:25:02 heard can we now look at ucpi
02:25:10 19876 uh which is at c135 of the hard copy bundle
02:25:27 give me a moment
02:25:35 please uh this is a um this is a report uh dated the 30th of September 1991 um and it uh relates to the Roland Adams Family campaign and I just want to look at what it says at paragraph
02:25:47 look at what it says at paragraph two uh which is uh the trial of those accused of murdering Roland Adams the young black man killed on the TS Meter
02:25:59 young black man killed on the TS Meter State London earlier this year begins on Monday the 7th of October 1991 at the Old Bailey the Roland Adams Family campaign has called for a picket of the court from 9:30 on that day the Socialist Workers Party has advertised
02:26:12 Socialist Workers Party has advertised this um in both its weekly uh newspaper and its weekly letter uh to Branch committees uh namely party notes however the latter does not give any instruction uctions or directives to swp branches which indicates that s swp attendance
02:26:27 which indicates that s swp attendance will be limited to a few members selling the parties
02:26:39 newspapers uh and um just one other report please uh on this uh topic C1 uh forgive me ucpi 19915 which is C 148 of the hard copy bundle
02:27:01 this is a report um dated the 14th of February 1992 uh relates to the Roland Adams Family
02:27:02 Family campaign uh says uh right at the bottom says the anti-nazi league appears to be efficiently and enthusiastically organizing support for the Roland Adams Family campaign demonstration to March
02:27:14 Family campaign demonstration to March and demonstrate outside the BMP Bookshop in Welling on a local level housing Estates are being leafleted and fly posting to advertise the event uh in the battery and Brixton areas buses have been booked to take protesters to the
02:27:33 been booked to take protesters to the event the swp uh the main Drive behind the ANL um will be calling for a london-wide mobilization of its members and indications so far uh suggest that the event will be well attended by the swp and its
02:27:51 supporters now the Roland Adams Family campaign was uh Justice campaign that's right isn't it yes I don't I can't remember it but by its name that's
02:28:02 remember it but by its name that's clearly um Roland Adams Roland Adams was a teenager just to refresh your memory who was killed in a racially motivated attack in
02:28:17 1991 um and um you've had the opportunity I think before today to to to look at the reporting that's um you produced and it's right to say that this campaign isn't the only Justice campaign that that you reported on is that fair that's fair would you agree Justice campaigns
02:28:34 fair would you agree Justice campaigns um were were generally peaceful is that a fair
02:28:44 a fair observation um they could be Ry vifer us um and outside say the court or where they were taking place they would sometimes cause um the police to be quite concerned and on the HP um as these things sometimes sprung up without any
02:28:55 any warning so I wouldn't say that they would generally um they they did cause police concern what sort of concerns
02:29:06 police concern what sort of concerns well about the numbers turning up um but also in on occasions these would be outside courts where of course you have witnesses and whatever going into the
02:29:18 witnesses and whatever going into the courts um and it was public order on the streets was your experience of Justice
02:29:30 streets was your experience of Justice campaigns uh was your experience one of disorder well I think I'd stay noisy vociferous and they caused police concern because they had every to us they often had the appearance that they might become disorderly and so therefore making sure that local police knew um
02:29:45 making sure that local police knew um what was going to occur on their ground and outside their Court we felt was um an important piece of of reporting so is it fair to say that its height uh noisy
02:30:01 it fair to say that its height uh noisy and vifer would be how you describe the potential problems to that might arise from a Justice campaign yes they they
02:30:11 from a Justice campaign yes they they might escalate um my experience yes can you remember how you came to report on this particular Justice campaign no I can't well other than it C the S swp were involved and therefore as a member of the swp I was reporting back what they were doing and therefore they were aligning
02:30:22 and therefore they were aligning themselves um but would appear from this with the Roland Adams Family campaign to a degree and so that's how it came to me
02:30:34 a degree and so that's how it came to me was through um my uh presence within the Socialist Workers Party can uh you remember what the purpose was for reporting on this particular Justice campaign I I think it well this
02:30:48 campaign I I think it well this particular one looking down it it was the you talking about the um British national party Bookshop in Welling and
02:30:59 national party Bookshop in Welling and again it comes to the potential for um violence um outside that Bookshop bearing in mind that as well as the swp there would be other organizations on it who would relish the opportunity uh to lock horns with um the British national
02:31:20 party was um s swp involvement um ordinarily the reason for your reporting on Justice campaigns yes that was that was well Solly the reason I would report it on
02:31:40 them there were times when Justice campaigns were critical of the police that's right isn't it very much so was there any
02:31:54 so was there any appetite uh within the SDS or wi special Branch or the MPS as a whole for information that related to the criticism of police no I think um I think in policing you were you always know that there's going to be criticism for all sorts of
02:32:07 going to be criticism for all sorts of things it for for us what it was about it was was about disorder on the
02:32:17 streets um next document please is um ucpi um
02:32:26 10176 and that's at C5 of the hard copy
02:32:36 bundle uh and this is a report an early report dated the 8th of November 1988 and we can see from paragraph two it's an intelligence report regarding a me of group known as a chil Chile
02:32:49 me of group known as a chil Chile committee for human rights all right yeah
02:32:51 yeah and can you remember how you came to be Rec reporting on this
02:33:03 reporting on this group yes I I had just been deployed um so I was trying to learn about the diaspora really I suppose of um different organizations out there and it was a meeting I saw public meeting U so I just simply decided to attend
02:33:27 it um just want to um ask you about what you said about reporting on this group and other groups such as the Broadwater defense campaign the holdan Society of sist lawyers that we we we
02:33:38 Society of sist lawyers that we we we discussed earlier today and some others at uh page 3536 of your statement it's paragraph 113 and I think you say there that these groups were all part of the Rich
02:33:53 groups were all part of the Rich tapestry of political activity in London and could in the wrong circumstances give R to give rise to public order concerns it's worth noting that summer reports of public meetings others are incidental to another group such as the clag members present at the at the
02:34:05 clag members present at the at the holding Society event or simply enclose a publication such as leaflets from the campaign against fascism in France and the Broadwater Farm defense campaign the breadth of reporting is because I was
02:34:16 breadth of reporting is because I was establishing my leftwing credentials and I was trained to record what I perceived and to feed it into uh the intelligence process only with the benefit of hindsight is is it apparent that a lot
02:34:37 hindsight is is it apparent that a lot of these groups were of little or or no concern now does the expression record what I perceived and feed it into the intelligence process is that is that a reference back to what you told us about
02:34:49 reference back to what you told us about the early days of reporting which was uh record everything you could remember about what you you'd observed yes
02:35:12 yes you also told us earlier today that another approach to your reporting was to report anything that you might you thought might be of value do you remember that yes would you agree that it's difficult to reconcile the two the two approaches to intelligence reporting that
02:35:24 to intelligence reporting that you've told us about over the course of the
02:35:31 the day in in my um in my start um sometimes it was difficult for me to see whether or not there was value in something and so I would report it um and if it was of no value I know it would at least I
02:35:43 no value I know it would at least I believed it would have been filtered out by um the
02:35:48 by um the office um and also where would have got some sort of feedback from from either the security service or from the squads the special Branch squads that were receiv receiving my reports to say look
02:36:00 receiv receiving my reports to say look we're not interested in this let's stop this would you accept that the uh concept of value doesn't feature at all in the former approach of uh recording
02:36:15 in the former approach of uh recording everything that one observes well I when I was doing it I thought that they were of value I think and therefore I reported as much as uh as much as I felt I could recall and
02:36:28 and remember now the content of this report is about a discussion uh by those attending regarding the the regime in Chile at the time realistically would a group like this have been uh of any
02:36:44 group like this have been uh of any concern to special branch on reflection no I just want to look at um paragraph three please um in that document where we can see that within
02:36:56 document where we can see that within the groups a delegation that the group sent to
02:37:05 sent to Chile uh was George fuks MP and a lawyer uh we've come across the name before J Jeffrey B bman do you see do you see that yes I do all right now I just want to look at a couple of more examples where we see um members of parliament uh
02:37:17 where we see um members of parliament uh featuring in your rep reporting first is ucpi 1019 four at tab
02:37:36 c33 uh this is a report dat of the 31st of May
02:37:38 of May 1981 um forgive me 1989 um it's uh about a meeting of the
02:37:49 1989 um it's uh about a meeting of the time to go campaign I think you told us earlier group that campaigned for the withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland just want to look at what paragraph 4 says um the meeting chaired by privacy started with a short speech of support from the leader of
02:38:00 speech of support from the leader of Lamberth Council Joan 12's the meeting then started in Earnest with a speech by Tony Ben MP his speech was considered by many of the audience to be a rambling dissertation about Ireland fism his own
02:38:15 dissertation about Ireland fism his own self-importance and the large amount of praise for the others on the rostom however the audience saw the need for Ben as an
02:38:29 attraction now would you accept that um so far as that report is concerned it's not just the presence of Tony Ben uh that features but the uh intelligence that you provided also extended to the
02:38:44 that you provided also extended to the content of his speech and an assessment of what others are the meeting thought about
02:38:50 about it yes yes that's right thank you uh next one
02:38:51 next one 31592 please ucpi 31592 which should be at tab c166 of the hard copy
02:39:08 bundle that's dated the 18th of January 1991 I just um just looking at paragraph 2 it's a report regarding the stop the war demonstration in central London in January 1991
02:39:21 January 1991 and it's right isn't it that the war on the gulf gave rise to a number of demonstrations and other activity which was something you reported on is that right yes that's correct um can you remember why you reported on the anti-g Gulf War movement at the
02:39:35 Gulf War movement at the time because it was something which the Socialist Workers Party was um heavily involved with and at the time we believ that they were probably um the main mover within the organization just want to look at um
02:39:51 organization just want to look at um page five which is part of the lists of those identified and we can see just below Center Ken Livingston MP recorded there do you see that yesk
02:40:08 you um now there are other examples of your intelligence reports that make reference to members of parliament throughout your reporting were you given any guidance or training on providing Intelligence on elected
02:40:22 elected politicians the no I wasn't the um my understanding um was that they were there in a public place and quite often it was useful to report their presence there and perhaps the content of what they were saying um because somebody of
02:40:34 they were saying um because somebody of note such as Ken Livingstone or Tony Ben would certainly give a higher profile to the organization that managed to get them there to speak so it was a reflection upon the influence of the
02:40:48 reflection upon the influence of the organization that we were interested in I see
02:40:55 I see I think you've answered my next question which is why did you feel it necessary to include such information I think that's all right um did you know what would be done with such
02:41:09 with such information well it would be passed back to uh to special Branch um and again it would help uh the people on the squads on the desks um to understand the political spectrum and um the issues that were of current concern
02:41:22 that were of current concern and what they should be looking out for themselves as desk officers looking back do you consider that it was appropriate to provide intelligence about democratically elected representatives of the British
02:41:41 public yes I do in this circumstance because I I was uh just simply reporting you know on their appearance at a public event and what they had to say so I didn't see that is any problem
02:41:58 whatsoever uh could we look next please at ucpi
02:42:06 10134 uh should be at c16 of the um hard copy
02:42:14 bundle thank you just bear with me while I catch up please
02:42:22 uh and this is a report dated the 14th of February 1989 uh and it's about two members of the Communist league and I just want to look at what it says at paragraph three um privacy who is employed by British
02:42:35 um privacy who is employed by British Rail is also a member of the national Union of railwaymen no details are available of privacy employment but but it is known that he is a member of the transport and general Workers Union it
02:42:50 transport and general Workers Union it is thought that uh these individuals are very active in their respective uh unions do you see that yes thank
02:43:02 you now there are other examples uh uh within your reporting of intelligence about individuals memberships of trade unions and their employment status would you
02:43:14 and their employment status would you accept that yes um can you remember what the purpose was of reporting on these two individuals Trade union membership and the level of activity within their unions the uh one of the areas of
02:43:25 unions the uh one of the areas of concern um with us with with some organizations was their um desire um to get involved in Union activity and to try and make um Union actions Union
02:43:42 try and make um Union actions Union activity um should we say radical uh and sometimes disorderly at events what did you expect would be done with that sort of
02:43:53 with that sort of intelligence it would provide background to uh to the desk officers and it would be of interest as well to uh the security
02:44:07 service would you accept that at the time employment and and Trade union membership was a sensitive topic uh yes
02:44:26 did your acknowledgement of that sensitivity ever make you pause for Thought uh when uh deciding whether to record and uh report this sort of information no I believed it was it was
02:44:42 information no I believed it was it was valuable information um so much so that um we had an idea of what organiz what political organizations were interested in what trade Union I to become involved
02:44:52 in can we look please at ucpi
02:44:57 10174 which is at c28 of the
02:45:11 bundle and this is a report dated 28th of April 1989 I just want to look at paragraphs 2 to 4 with you uh which says militant activity activists forgive me
02:45:22 militant activity activists forgive me within the workforce of the London bar of souk have recently shown dissatisfaction at the policies being pursued by the council alleging that they are more in line with official
02:45:35 they are more in line with official conservative party Doctrine than that of the true socialist local Authority as a result there is to be a National Association of local government officers nalgo uh Branch meeting at 12:30 p.m. at Peckham town hall on the 9th of May 1989
02:45:48 Peckham town hall on the 9th of May 1989 it's suggested that there will be a call from d
02:45:52 from d action now with the prospect of several other strikes possibly taking place within other spheres of Industry the council employers are confident as to a successful outcome of their action that
02:46:05 successful outcome of their action that one of the most prominent personalities behind this matter is privacy a member of the Lamberth South Branch of the
02:46:17 of the Lamberth South Branch of the Socialist Workers Party and local nalgo member it's understood that he's being advised as to his course of action by more experienced members of the the swp why is it you reported on an upcoming meeting of nalgo where the possibility of industrial action may have been
02:46:29 have been discussed I was report reporting it really in connection with um
02:46:37 privacy would you agree that the detail in this report is uh more weighted uh towards workers and the
02:46:50 weighted uh towards workers and the union rather than the s swp member uh that you said was involved um that that second paragraph is about uh yeah the context in which he is
02:47:02 involved would you agree that the
02:47:08 detail is more about the workers in the union
02:47:09 union however
02:47:19 um yes yes at 19875 um please which is at c134 of the hard copy
02:47:34 bundle um this is a report date of the 30th of September 1991 just want to look at um some of what this says the Socialist Workers Party is currently trying to assess
02:47:47 Party is currently trying to assess which trades unions will be mobilizing their members to demonstrate it this year as Conservative Party Conference so that the party can organize its own activities within those unions uh so far
02:48:03 activities within those unions uh so far the following of said that they will Dem they will be demonstrating on the days shown and then it gives a list of of four
02:48:04 four dates uh and different um trade um unions um that will be it said we're going to be demonstrating at that party
02:48:19 going to be demonstrating at that party conference why did you give intelligence as to which unions intended to demonstrate at the Conservative Party
02:48:31 Conference I simply regarded it as information that was um relevant to what the Socialist Workers Party was um trying to do and which organizations um they were going to um uh try and make some kind of impact or not necessarily
02:48:47 some kind of impact or not necessarily impact but um had turned their attention to should we say to those meetings
02:48:54 um again isn't the detail in this report more about what the unions were doing rather than any swp involvement or or
02:49:06 rather than any swp involvement or or influence um I think it well I reported it um as to what the Socialist part Workers Party was going to try and do at least try and show an interest
02:49:21 in would you agree that these two examples or the intelligence Within These two
02:49:23 These two examples uh really strayed Beyond um what the Socialist Workers Party uh was
02:49:35 Party uh was doing uh into matters that were directly relevant to what the trade unions were
02:49:44 doing no I I feel that I'm reporting here on the Socialist Workers Party and this rather than just saying they going to get involved in a union or you know
02:49:55 to get involved in a union or you know another Union and a third Union you know I mentioned what those unions are because if I'm if I'm thinking about them being a subversive organization um we need to know what their targets
02:50:06 their targets are if we just look at that last example um the the the information about um what the you say the swp wants to
02:50:20 the you say the swp wants to do and the information about the the Unions would you agree it's completely detached isn't
02:50:31 detached isn't it on the one hand you've got a a a a record there of the party socialist worthy party you say wanting to organize its own activities within the unions um on the other simply a
02:50:44 unions um on the other simply a timetable of who's doing what at the Conservative Party Conference yes but the swp sorry I'm reading this that the
02:50:56 the swp sorry I'm reading this that the S swp is um is going to be going to turn its attention to those four dates see so far the following have said that they will be demonstrating on the days shown and those four
02:51:09 days shown and those four unions um and the swp will be mizing their members to demonstrate is it fair to say at those demonstrations isn't that a
02:51:23 demonstrations isn't that a misinterpretation because that report opens with the social spar Socialist Workers parties currently trying to assess which trade unions will be mobilizing their members
02:51:31 yeah so it's not uh it's not intelligence that those four unions listed there are targets of the swp or anything like that no but they're they're for
02:51:43 that no but they're they're for candidates aren't they is the way I see it see of the uh the swp's attention
02:51:54 so at its highest um forgive me if this sounds um crude but is what you're saying this is what the S swp are up to they could be involved in themselves in any one of
02:52:10 involved in themselves in any one of these four trade unions because I know yes they they're going to do this on these dates that that's what I'm uh that's what I'm trying to say yes the these these four maybe the the attention of the s
02:52:19 of the s WP and those demonstrations on those dates will attract May attract an swp presence isn't it fair that
02:52:33 presence isn't it fair that without any real connection between the swp and and those specific activities that um those unions were were going to involve
02:52:46 unions were were going to involve themselves in that there really isn't very much value to that particular report
02:52:56 I wouldn't uh I wouldn't have said uh I wouldn't have said that now all right can we look at uh next please ucpi 10177 which is at c29 of the hard copy
02:53:11 bundle and I'm just going to look at just a handful of examples hm90 of reporting on individuals all right um this is a report the 28th of April 1989 it's about a member of the uh Lamberth
02:53:26 it's about a member of the uh Lamberth South Branch of the swp and at paragraph 3 it says um privacy is a regular attender at Branch meetings paper sales and other Branch activities such as fly posting and demonstrations although
02:53:38 posting and demonstrations although considered a pleasant person he's also seen as very boring
02:53:41 boring um he exerts uh no influence I think I'm on the wrong document forgive sorry yeah yeah my fault not
02:53:50 fault not yours it's this one forgive me privacy let's start again
02:54:05 10177 it's my fault h90 not yours all right privacy is not the brightest of individuals but uh he does possess an enthusiasm for politics and party Affairs he attended the swp rally at skes in April 1989 uh and is is a
02:54:19 skes in April 1989 uh and is is a habitual attender of Branch meetings he's also a regular paper seller outside the oval underground station on on Thursday evenings do you see that yes do you not
02:54:37 you not consider uh the uh that describing someone as not the brightest of individuals as rather
02:54:46 disparaging um I was trying to describe the person I can't think who this is I have to say I can't think who this is about um but I was trying to describe the person and um that's the phrase I'm afraid that I used at the
02:54:58 afraid that I used at the time I don't know what else uh others
02:55:09 time I don't know what else uh others would have used but just what I chose looking back um do you think you are right to choose that sort of
02:55:20 language um I don't think it's um I'm making a obviously entirely subjective um assessment of the person um and that's the phrase I used at the time I did I don't even now see it as especially problematic although
02:55:36 especially problematic although obviously in a context such as this room um perhaps there other language I could have used but I didn't see it as problematic can we look at um C uh forgive me ucpi
02:55:47 forgive me ucpi 100017 which is at c75 of the hard copy bundle
02:56:05 uh and this is a report dated the 1st of December 1989 it's about an swp members move from one branch to another paragraph C uh three forgive me says this uh privacy is either separated or divorced and has a son who lives on the Privacy privacy privacy has legal
02:56:18 the Privacy privacy privacy has legal access to his son for a certain number of days per month it appears that it is his son's presence in London which has caused privacy to move from from
02:56:34 Birmingham um what was the reason for reporting on this individual's child contact
02:56:38 contact Arrangements it it was background information on the
02:56:47 individual and at the time we reported that kind of um material that kind of information did you not consider information of that nature to be particularly sensitive um because of the the um because of the sun aspect in there um
02:57:02 because of the sun aspect in there um yes I think it is sensitive but that's what we reported and OB these reports were at the time marked up as um as I think probably secret yes secret so they would have been marked in as secret so
02:57:24 would have been marked in as secret so it would have been a very limited number of people that would have read what I'd said just one to look at what you said about this report in your witness statement um which is at page 48 paragraph
02:57:40 148 you say privacy moved to London from Birmingham to be closer to his son which is recorded in the report dated 1st December 1989 gives a clearer understanding of the in individual this might be useful for anyone seeking to recruit privacy as an
02:57:59 informant are you saying there that that sort of information might have been
02:58:01 been useful in seeking to persuade or or recruit um the individual concerned uh to be an
02:58:18 concerned uh to be an informant yes that might might have been the case or to steer you away from um from such depending who's making the assessment but um the word you use is
02:58:30 assessment but um the word you use is recruit yes I use the word recruit yeah so not steer away yeah um
02:58:45 and do you um did you consider that it was in your remit to report information that might be used for that purpose sometimes it was yes I don't know what the context um I'm afraid I don't recall the report and the
02:58:58 person um next example please
02:59:13 10133 ucpi 10133 which is c93 of the hard copy
02:59:24 bundle uh and this is a report dated 29th of August 1990 uh about a member of the Hammer Smith and nosing Hill branch of the
02:59:33 of the swp um and um it says paragraphs 4 to5 um a socialist um uh more by Instinct than by education privacy finds many political Concepts a little hard to grasp when she first attended s swp
02:59:47 grasp when she first attended s swp meetings was fortunate to have privacy a young but extremely Keen team comrade willing to explain things to her this later developed into a much more intimate relationship which has caus uh privacy some difficult in juggling her
03:00:02 privacy some difficult in juggling her two boyfriends uh on a practical rather than theoretical level privacy is an active seller of the swp's weekly newspaper socialist worker and usually a keen participant in other Street activities privacy has been in trouble with the police on at least two occasions in March 1988 both she and
03:00:20 occasions in March 1988 both she and privacy were convicted of shoplifting on the 31st of March uh 1990 both Central London which followed the anti- community charge demonstration privacy was originally charged with a public order offense but on her return uh to the charging station was further charged
03:00:33 the charging station was further charged with two assaults on police the possible consequences of these assault charges worry her she claims to be innocent of them she is hopeful that they may be dropped as she believes that they were a clerical error and that it was privacy who should have been
03:00:45 who should have been charged and what was the purpose of reporting um that this individual had two boyfriends can I just say I don't uh
03:00:57 two boyfriends can I just say I don't uh there have been a number of reports that have been attributed to me in the packs that I've seen in preparation for today um and I believe this might be one of them although it's attributed to me I don't I don't recall that and the kind
03:01:13 don't I don't recall that and the kind of language um vocabulary that's used in it I don't recognize as my style so I'm afraid I can't help you with that one at
03:01:28 all can we look at 31363 which is at c102
03:01:52 and this is um report date of the 16th of October
03:02:02 1990 uh uh and it's about a member of the Lamberth North and batsy branch of the
03:02:03 the swp uh and paragraph two uh reads privacy a member of the Lamberth North and batsy branch of the Socialist
03:02:17 and batsy branch of the Socialist Workers Party is soon to marry a privacy National by the name of privacy privacy lives at in the there's some private information privacy lives out some more private information one reason for the marriage is to be allowed to remain in the UK she has no wish to have children
03:02:29 the UK she has no wish to have children by privacy and it would appear that they will not even live together privacy is fully aware of the situation nothing is
03:02:42 fully aware of the situation nothing is known of privacy but she may be a member of the Lamberth North Branch of the swp um what was the purpose of um reporting on what appears to have been um if your information's accurate a marriage of
03:02:55 marriage of convenience it was background information um regarding the person and can you um if you could just look please at your witness statement where you address this report paragraph
03:03:16 151 it's right isn't it that this is another example where you said this sort of information may have assisted with any efforts to recruit uh the individual as a source do do you see that yes I do
03:03:33 yeah and you've already told us that you uh you considered that was within your within your remit yes were you were you ever told to uh look out for information that might assist in the recruitment of
03:03:49 might assist in the recruitment of others I can't remember specific uh conversations regarding it um but obviously it was you know it's uh sources are a key key business area of special
03:03:59 special Branch
03:04:09 um can we look please at uh ucpi 19824 which is at c123
03:04:31 um c123 for the hard copy bundle thank you and this is data the 7th of June 1991 uh it's about a member of the Lambeth North and batsy branch of the
03:04:47 Lambeth North and batsy branch of the swp says in the main body privacy is um a a member of Lamberth North and bsy branch of the Socialist Workers Party recently employed by swp Center for 3 days a week this allows him to involve himself further in swp Affairs and
03:04:59 himself further in swp Affairs and undertake other part-time work as a lecturer teacher in graphics he's now developed an intimate relationship with
03:05:15 privacy um is it fair to say that in this context the expression intimate relationship means sexual relationship um not necessarily not necessarily but what do you say it means sorry what do you say it
03:05:29 means sorry what do you say it means an a close relationship um but if I would have referred to a sexual relationship I would have disting if I thought that it was a sexual relationship then I would have used that phrase Intimate Relationships to me is a very close
03:05:47 very close relationship and probably sexual as well so intimate close and probably sexual seual yes all right and do you accept um you've had the opportunity to look to your through your reporting do you accept that the term intimate relationship is one that
03:06:00 term intimate relationship is one that comes up quite a bit when um reporting on
03:06:02 on individuals um yes I'm sure I'm yes possibly yeah probably what was the reason for reporting information of this nature it's uh it again it's all
03:06:16 nature it's uh it again it's all background information on the person which at the time was what
03:06:21 reported this is if it involves the possibility of a sexual relationship this is very private
03:06:33 sexual relationship this is very private information isn't it You' agree with yes yeah do you have a pause for thoughts when considering whether to record information like that
03:06:41 um I I felt it was something because I knew it um and it was part of the background to that person then I would have reported it
03:06:49 um c151 which is ucpi
03:06:57 19927 thank
03:07:04 you c151 in the hard copy
03:07:15 bundle um a report um dated 27th of March
03:07:28 1992 um it reads um privacy is no longer a member of um privacy Socialist Workers Party and all probability is no longer even a party member he's certainly not taken an active part in s swp activity
03:07:41 taken an active part in s swp activity for some time even though he maintains his closer friendships made during uh the time of his membership as a practicing homosexual he does sometimes
03:07:52 practicing homosexual he does sometimes turn up at events centered on homosexual rights he's understood to be um a freelance
03:07:55 freelance writer um why does this uh why do you report to use the language in the report that the person was a practicing homosexual um it was the phrase I used
03:08:10 homosexual um it was the phrase I used at the time um and it was and the phrase homosexual was the one that was used in reports um as was the phrase you know a practicing homosexual dis it describes the person its background again um concerning that
03:08:23 background again um concerning that particular person can we just look at what you say about this in your witness statement please at paragraph This is page 49
03:08:32 page 49 paragraph
03:08:36 154
03:08:45 okay uh the reference to the subject of the nominal Pro former dated 27th of March 1992 being a practicing homosexual explains why he continued to attend
03:08:57 explains why he continued to attend events focused on homosexual rights even when he had otherwise uh withdrawn from s swp
03:08:59 s swp activities so the reason you given your statement is um an explanation as to why this individual continued to um attend on uh events focused on
03:09:15 to um attend on uh events focused on what you term a homosexual rights do you see that yes I do and how was that
03:09:23 relevant I mean others others may have seen him turn up at s swp events and
03:09:34 seen him turn up at s swp events and assumed um that he was a member of the S swp when in fact his interests were um as I said use the phrase there um his interest was in terms of his sexuality and not his membership of the swp so that information might explain why he's there and
03:09:46 why he's there and um not because he's an swp member again background information on the person were gay rights uh were
03:09:58 the person were gay rights uh were events focused on gay rights in your experience typically populated by subversives or did they risk public disorder or anything like that um no no I wouldn't make that that connection would you agree again this is um this
03:10:13 would you agree again this is um this was highly personal information yes it is
03:10:15 is yes um across your reporting um there are um numerous Resorts uh reports that that deal with things like physical
03:10:31 that deal with things like physical descriptions or domestic arrangements and relationships or children or personality or sexual orientation um and and other personal information was it necessary to report
03:10:44 information was it necessary to report all of this information all of the time at the time we reported as fully as we could on individuals does that mean then that there was no assessment as to the value of that private and personal
03:10:58 value of that private and personal information I I think there was I think the assessment um often came later if you were trying to identify a person you might not know their name but you hear about their activity Etc then it might
03:11:12 about their activity Etc then it might steer you towards a potential candidates for somebody you're trying to find out about but didn't you have to make the decision as to what to include and what not to include uh [Music]
03:11:19 [Music] um I I think really I included everything that I thought was relevant to the character um of that person or to the physical appearance of that
03:11:38 person um just moving on to another topic I'm not going to take you to the documents H and9 but I think um it's right and you address this in your witness statement page 54 paragraph 175 uh that you were involved in a
03:11:50 175 uh that you were involved in a couple of car accidents while whil deployed is that right yes
03:11:57 um um both accidents involveed members of the
03:11:58 of the public uh in in the other vehicles that were involved in the collisions is that right yes and those members of the public as far as you were aware nothing to do with any of the groups that you
03:12:09 to do with any of the groups that you were targeting during your deployment that's correct and you tell us that you dealt with these accidents in your your cover details is that right uh yes
03:12:22 cover details is that right uh yes that's correct so for example when you exchange names address you would give cover name cover address
03:12:39 yes um do you accept that in using your cover details um untargeted members of the public innocent members of the public were
03:12:45 misled misled the thing is I had to maintain my cover and to suddenly come out with my real name in a you know uh a
03:12:57 out with my real name in a you know uh a car um a petrol station or on the street or wherever the accident occurred um in my real name and then start producing documents in my real name effectively your cover's blown or could potentially blown be blown and that means you have
03:13:08 blown be blown and that means you have to carry documentation in your vehicle which is no longer in your cover name you're exposing yourself I believe to um more you so much difficulty that I can
03:13:20 more you so much difficulty that I can see people in those circumstances might have to be
03:13:30 have to be withdrawn at the time of your deployment did did you give any thought about how you might approach the issue of your identity if an accident resulted in legal
03:13:35 legal proceedings again that would be a matter I would cover it all in um the actual incident itself I would cover it all in my cover name but then the management would uh you know when they were
03:13:47 would uh you know when they were informed we would then have to work out the next steps um in regard to um the legal side of uh the dealings so are you saying don't let me put words in your mouth please but are you saying you you gave it no thought but if the situation
03:14:01 gave it no thought but if the situation arose then you'd go to management to see what to do about it
03:14:08 yes was there any guidance or training provided to you as to how you should deal that with ordinary members of the public in this sort of situation
03:14:19 it was simply that my you know my my cover was of Paramount
03:14:32 importance um I just want to look a little bit now the relationship that um you had with the security service or that the SDS had with the security service and we've already looked at some documents demonstrating that uh security service was being appraised uh about your targeting and the progress of your deployment and so
03:14:47 the progress of your deployment and so on all right yeah could we look at this time
03:14:48 time 30658 which is at B3 of the hard copy
03:15:07 bundle uh this is a um document dated 9th of September 1988 a meeting between the security service and um DCI Docker of the SDS paragraph 4 reads otherwise
03:15:18 of the SDS paragraph 4 reads otherwise all seems well in the SS they just put out a new chap into the field details will be forwarded soon who'll be directed towards clag and the rcg this will be a classic long-term slowly slowly effort do you see that yes and does it follow from that that the
03:15:29 does it follow from that that the security service were advised early on in your deployment as to your your early
03:15:40 targets yes that yeah I see that and I think you say uh in your witness statement if you need the reference it's Pages 17 to 18 paragraph 60 that you I think you noticed whilst
03:15:53 60 that you I think you noticed whilst you're in the back office that there was a security service liais an officer who'd come to the SS offices frequently but you weren't privy to the conversations with that officer that's correct yes um did you ever have any um direct
03:16:12 yes um did you ever have any um direct uh contact with uh the security service before you deployed no no uh we'll talk about the end of your deployment shortly but during your deployment was there any direct contact between you and the security service
03:16:24 security service no um can we look at please 29023 which is at B1 of the hard copy
03:16:43 bundle this is a document dated 23rd of March 1989 it's a security service loose minute um at paragraph well says as follows hn 90s recently submitted a number of very useful reports on the activities and in particular members of the Communist
03:16:56 particular members of the Communist league in London many of the individuals reported on were not known to be connected with the CL I would be grateful if Source could estimate the current figure for cl membership our last indication was of something members
03:17:09 last indication was of something members including uh something redacted in March 1988 many thanks for sources help in covering uh this group uh so uh looks like a requests for uh membership numbers there do do you see that yes I
03:17:26 numbers there do do you see that yes I do um next one please 3 23421 ucpi 23421 which is at B25 of the hard copy
03:17:41 bundle um this is dated 27th April 1990 it's a a security service communication um and and looks like
03:17:53 communication um and and looks like another request Under The Heading of uh hn9 Source has recently provided some useful reports on the workers Power Group can you confirm that the workers power headquarters address is do you see that yes I do and then 29039
03:18:12 please uh which is at b26 of the hard copy bundle
03:18:23 um dated um 15th of May 1990 it looks like this is the SDS response saying um You couldn't confirm that address do you see that yes
03:18:37 see that yes um and uh just uh another example at 30704 B30 of the hard copy bundle
03:18:56 uh Security Service note for file um dated the 8th of March 1991 uh it's a record of a meeting between the security service and uh
03:19:07 between the security service and uh managers DCI gray and dih and 86 I just want to look at what it says over the page at 12 paragraphs 12 to 13 says at f2s request I gave gray photocopy of passport photograph to see see whether hn9 could confirm that it was um um I
03:19:25 hn9 could confirm that it was um um I think that's short for identifiable with or identical with the woman thank you the woman on file um hn9 had first reported on her membership of s swp lamber South Branch and her employment
03:19:37 lamber South Branch and her employment in and there's something redacted I said the passport photograph was that of the female name born 1986 ad uh who was being paid by uh followed by redaction uh and then uh looks like there's a response to that at
03:19:51 2915 which is a tab um b31
03:20:10 29015 um hn9 this is forgive me this is dated it's not dated at all actually but um it's um hn 90 it says confirms that the attached photograph is of female name that it is only a fair likeness and that she always wears spect do you see that yes I do and I think there are
03:20:21 that yes I do and I think there are other examples of such requests amongst the doc documents um relating to your employment do do you agree with that now were you aware of requests of intelligence made by security Ser the
03:20:33 intelligence made by security Ser the security service that were intended for you uh yes very much so uh and um how often did you receive um requests of this nature um I I would say not often
03:20:49 um possibly less than once a month from
03:20:59 them um how did you become aware um that these sorts of requests were coming from the security service a a direct question asked of me either by on my telephone contacts with the back office um or at the U the weekly meetings where I
03:21:12 the U the weekly meetings where I described earlier that sometimes people would go away into a side room away from everybody else and go through these sorts of requests and have a discussion on them I give my input back often not
03:21:23 on them I give my input back often not in uh Report Form but just as uh verbal and then it would be written up and sent back in the kind of uh documentation
03:21:38 back in the kind of uh documentation we've just seen you can we look next at um 23861 which is at b19 of the hard copy bundle
03:21:51 uh and this is a security service loose minute the date at the front is 10th of August 1989 I think later in the document we see it's dated the 8th of August but um August 1989 in any event and can we look at page three
03:22:10 please uh about Center it reads H 90 reports on Lamberth branch of the swp at Target priority level North Lamberth uh North Lamberth at battery and South Lamberth at Brixton are both
03:22:21 and South Lamberth at Brixton are both mediumsized London branches 30 members were identified in 1988 in North Lamberth and 41 in South Lamberth degree of coverage provided by agent hm90 is a fairly new source and has so far provided information about Lamberth
03:22:34 provided information about Lamberth Branch members and Branch organization value of coverage hn 90s reports have provided valuable identifying details implications for the work of the desk if the agent were to be withdrawn without replacement identifications with suff
03:22:48 replacement identifications with suff were hn9 to be withdrawn the opportunity to make an assessment of the strength and degree of activity of the Lambeth branches would also be impaired if ancient 90 was withdrawn in in the near
03:23:00 ancient 90 was withdrawn in in the near future do you see that uh no I don't see it on mine I'm afraid right I think it's being highlighted now right okay um right yes okay sorry I
03:23:13 right okay um right yes okay sorry I didn't know where You' started thank you forgive me no my fault my no my fault it's not your fault at
03:23:27 it's not your fault at all um can we look now at um 30678 ucpi 30678 uh which is at B20 of the hard copy
03:23:40 bundle this is dated the 11th of August 1989 it's a security service loose minute uh and and it's a draft brief on
03:23:51 minute uh and and it's a draft brief on the STS in relation to a meeting between the deputy director General and the deputy assistant commissioner and can we just look at um what's GED at page three
03:24:07 please um Security Service indicated the priority level of s swp London for S swp desks the SDS contribution is of considerable importance to to the security service hn9 lamth Branch over three years to run Security Service
03:24:19 three years to run Security Service comment h90 is a relatively new source and his reporting though of value is limited as as yet do do you see that yes I do thank you um at any time during your
03:24:31 you um at any time during your deployment were you ever made aware of the level of value that your intelligence carried for the security service um yes I was can you remember being careful about names how and and
03:24:44 being careful about names how and and how you you got that feedback feedback from um
03:24:49 I don't want to get the number
03:24:59 wrong yes it's hn1 09 thank
03:25:08 you uh can we next look at um ucpi 29020
03:25:17 which is at b37 of the hard copy
03:25:37 bundle and um you tell us in your witness statement at uh page 67 um paragraphs 226 to 227 please if you need to but I don't think this is controversial that you
03:25:51 think this is controversial that you were debriefed by the security service uh after you left the field is that right that's correct yes uh and uh we can see at this document dated the 11th of August 1982 which is a sec 1992 forgive me a security service
03:26:08 forgive me a security service communication to the SDS in advance of a debrief that was to be held on the 19th of August 198 uh 1992 uh paragraph two there's a list of topics for for discussion do you see that yes
03:26:22 that yes uh you've told us I think the debrief took place was the list of topics communicated to you in advance of the debrief uh I I don't believe it was
03:26:42 no can we then look at 29021 ucpi 2921 which should be at b39 of the hard copy bundle
03:26:53 and this is a security service note for file um dated the 30th of SE 30th of September 1992 it's a security service record of your
03:27:04 record of your debriefing and it says this on the 1st of
03:27:11 of September uh 1992 F2 officers were given the opportunity to debrief h90 and SDS officer who had until recently been targeted against Lamberth North Branch of SRP h90 is shortly to return to
03:27:22 of SRP h90 is shortly to return to normal duties in C Squad h86 and uh someone else accompanied hn9 to a location to meet F2 an mashion F2 and F2 and a fourth CIS officer Security Service Officer hn9 dealt with his
03:27:35 Service Officer hn9 dealt with his experience as an agent in the swp as well as talking about his detailed knowledge of the swp as an organization we discussed the areas outlined in our Telex at serial hm90 stressed that the swp was Ally anxious to get black
03:27:47 swp was Ally anxious to get black members and was Keen to advance them in the party he suggested that black agents stood more more chance of getting access to S swp Center as a result F2 had
03:28:00 to S swp Center as a result F2 had recorded independently hn 90's comments uh on the
03:28:13 swp now uh was it right um that um you'd ascertained that the swp was c um Keen to recruit in advanc Black members it was well known to S swp members did you feed this information back to SDS
03:28:24 feed this information back to SDS management other than um at this meeting
03:28:34 um I don't recall feeding it back directly
03:28:38 directly no see the reason I'm asking you about this is that in in 1991 Trevor Morris was deployed and was targeted against the s swp do you know whether his targeting was
03:28:51 do you know whether his targeting was influenced by information that that You' acquired about the swp seeking to develop and Advance its membership within the black community as far as I'm aware no that
03:29:04 community as far as I'm aware no that wasn't um that wasn't a factor as far as I
03:29:13 know uh presumably you wouldn't be involved in uh targeting decision in relation to other undercover officers no not at
03:29:28 not at all uh can we look next please um final one on this topic I think uh 0 MPS 07
03:29:31 07 316
03:29:33 316 0731
03:29:43 6 it should be b45 of the hard copy bundle
03:29:54 uh and um this is an SDS Branch note dated quite some time after your debrief the 4th of February
03:30:06 1998 uh and just want to just see what it says it says on the 3rd of February I spoke to dsh and9 regarding his debrief interview with members of the security service on his departure from the field his Recollections were hazy but we recall that he they met in a flat where three Security Service Personnel were present a male from agent handling two
03:30:23 present a male from agent handling two females from the relevant section one of the females was older and more senior but it was the younger one who asked most of the questions although hm90 could not remember names he suspects that the younger one was Annie mashan the discussions were of a general nature covering the politics of the swp and some key individuals h90 outlined his
03:30:38 some key individuals h90 outlined his own career via Lamberth South Lamberth north Southwest London and Kingston branches of swp discussions did include the annual skegness Gathering and although trycraft was was not discussed clearly all parties present would have had some knowledge of SDS mode of
03:30:56 had some knowledge of SDS mode of operations I then spoke to someone who was also present at hn9 debrief he confirmed the above facts and was certain that he was introduced as hm90 I.E none of the security service Personnel would be aware of his true
03:31:14 identity um is the record to the best of your recollection of what was disced discuss at the de debrief is that an accurate record as best I can recall yes is it correct that security service
03:31:27 is it correct that security service personnel with whom you met did not know your real identity that's what I understood
03:31:37 yes until this debrief had you had any direct contact with the security service in relation to your deployment uh no at the time of your deployment to
03:31:48 no at the time of your deployment to what extent did you consider uh that it was influenced by the security service well I knew right from the outset that uh the security service um
03:32:01 outset that uh the security service um you know was a um an important customer should we say of our intelligence reports in relation obviously to the S swp's
03:32:07 swp's subversive side of things
03:32:19 sir um I'm conscious um that we're approaching time for a break I'm about to move to another topic I hope not to be any longer than 20 minutes to to half an hour or so is this a convenient
03:32:31 an hour or so is this a convenient moment um just let me inquire would you like a break now yes yes thank
03:32:41 you I wonder whether the 15minute break could be used um by those who do have questions that they will invite you to put if they could do that now we will
03:32:56 put if they could do that now we will have a break later but um this may speed the process up yes I'll remain in the room thank you thank you 15
03:33:14 minutes
03:50:43 e e
03:51:39 yes so may may with your leave just complete that which I was going to ask uh and then perhaps um subject to your better view go straight into other questions that um I've been asked to
03:51:50 questions that um I've been asked to deal with and deem appropriate to deal with certainly um I'm bound to say there there there are some other questions that have come to me via alternative
03:52:01 that have come to me via alternative means that I've not had the opportunity to consider so I I'll still ask for a brief adjer of course that that seems very sens I'm grateful thank you very
03:52:14 very sens I'm grateful thank you very much um h90 um could we just uh look at uh MPS 07
03:52:17 uh MPS 07 32804 which is at B 41 of the hard copy
03:52:46 bundle uh and uh it's right um that you say in your witness statement that you were involved in the SS's mentoring scheme um after you came out of the field is that correct that's correct all right uh now this is a document dated 23rd of November 19 uh
03:53:03 document dated 23rd of November 19 uh 994 uh and it gives an agenda for um the um a meeting of the SDS mentors and we can see uh a paragraph two that you are Mentor uh no names please all right but mentor to two undercover officers that
03:53:16 mentor to two undercover officers that are we can see ciphered appear ciphered in the document do you see that yes I do was there a formal selection process in order to become a mentor um no I didn't apply for uh to
03:53:28 mentor um no I didn't apply for uh to become a mentor I was simply asked if I would uh would help being being careful as to names do you remember who asked you
03:53:39 you [Music]
03:53:45 [Music] um no I'm afraid I don't and was that something was becoming a mentor something you were obviously prepared to do I was happy to do that yes was there a reason that you uh were content to engage in the scheme um no I was just
03:54:00 engage in the scheme um no I was just con you know content to help out because I believed what the unit was doing and uh if I could help after my deployment that was good with me c can you remember um what was expected of you as a mentor really to have um uh meetings
03:54:18 mentor really to have um uh meetings um at a fairly regular not necessarily frequent basis um with uh deployed officers um very much to act as a little bit of a um some social contact yes as
03:54:35 bit of a um some social contact yes as it were um I was it was also difficult um in one respect as much I was also expected um to perhaps if I saw an officer going off the rails always um you know clearly had mental health issues or whatever from what he was
03:54:46 issues or whatever from what he was doing then I was obviously to take that and report that to management so you had this uh slight conflict between being somebody that they spoke to um and
03:54:58 somebody that they spoke to um and confided in if they wanted to and on the other hand you were also looking for looking for issues if there were any yes or no to this question please did do you experience uh any situation like that whilst you were a mentor
03:55:11 whilst you were a mentor no um could we just look at paragraph five of that document which states in the latter part officers who attended the beak Street 3-day course on Stress Awareness in
03:55:22 Awareness in 1993 would they recommend a repeat for new mentors uh did you ever undertake a Stress Awareness course as part of your being a mentor I don't know what titles
03:55:37 being a mentor I don't know what titles any of the um um meetings took place or seminars I would call them but um I don't know if it was at beak street but I was I certainly went on um yeah
03:55:49 I was I certainly went on um yeah seminars I would say long seminars and I can't remember the the dates or the length of time that they took were they just um were they internal police seminars or did they ever involve
03:56:04 seminars or did they ever involve outside providers or people with outside expertise I seem to remember one had um an uh an outside um Psy psychoanalyst or psychotherapist I'm not sure which one that she was
03:56:18 I'm not sure which one that she was um b35 in the hard copy bundle this is MPS
03:56:19 MPS 05274
03:56:29 39 um and this is an SDS memo I'll just wait for the document to come up
03:56:58 number 0527 439 underscore U maybe you need to add underscore 002 thank you uh there's a SDS memo dated the 7th of April um 1992 and can we look at page five of this document
03:57:11 please I just want to look at um what that says um say says uh as an a to the SDS supervisory structure it's proposed
03:57:22 SDS supervisory structure it's proposed to enlist former SDS Personnel to act as friends or mentors to field officers mentors are asked to meet their nominated officers regularly on an informal basis at the request of either party the regularity will depend upon the individual's needs but it is
03:57:34 the individual's needs but it is suggested that no more than three months should elapse between meetings the scheme is intended um essentially to enhance the existing
03:57:49 essentially to enhance the existing monitoring of field officers welfare and that of their immediate families it's accepted uh that operational matters will be uh will arise during conversation and that advice as the best practice will be given mentors are advised however that methods may have changed since their time in the field
03:58:00 changed since their time in the field and that any apparently controversial matter should be referred to the SDS DCI or di it's also accepted that to be successful meeting should be conducted on a confidential basis it stress however that mentors should make it
03:58:14 however that mentors should make it clear to the officer involved that any matter the VES which in their opinion May adversely affect the field officer's operational judgment suitability for his duties mental stability Etc must be reported immediately to SDS supervisors after each meeting mentors should make a
03:58:29 after each meeting mentors should make a brief report by telephone to the SDS DCI or di a log will be maintained at
03:58:38 sshq um now typically how regularly were you meeting with your nominated officers um it wasn't monthly um and I think it may been a little more regularly than the three monthly recom uh marked out here so I I would suggest
03:58:52 uh marked out here so I I would suggest it's sort of between one and two months uh were meetings at your instigation or of you made of your Mente instigation was it mixture of the too um I I can't
03:59:05 was it mixture of the too um I I can't remember but um I certainly would if I felt that I hadn't seen him for a while the for me the idea was the uh regularity of it rather than the frequency of it did you make it clear to
03:59:21 frequency of it did you make it clear to your nominated officers that whilst your meetings were confidential there was certain information that it disclosed you were obliged to inform management about
03:59:28 about yes did you form an impression as to whether that affected how candid candid uh your mentees were prepared to be with you um I think that was
03:59:40 you um I think that was inevitable sorry what was inevitable that that that you know having said if I see anything that gives me any those concerns that I would go then to STDs
03:59:55 concerns that I would go then to STDs management I think that must have had um an impact upon um you know their uh candid approach to me yes um after meeting with your nominated officers did
04:00:07 meeting with your nominated officers did you always provide a report by telephone to the SS DCI or or di uh yes yes with all of us done it and I think you've already told us you didn't uh feel the need to report any issues of concern regarding your mentees no I
04:00:27 regarding your mentees no I didn't um can we look at um Pages 7 to eight of that same document please
04:00:30 please um uh readers you're aware a number of former SDS Personnel act as friends or mentors to the current field officers mentors meet nominated officers regularly on an informal basis for
04:00:44 regularly on an informal basis for welfare reasons in response to a recent survey of specific aspects of SS practice initiated by acso and discussions with ms113 staff and a consultant psychologist a training need was identified for SDS office staff and
04:00:55 was identified for SDS office staff and mentors to attend counseling courses to enhance the effective monitoring of field officers welfare and that of their immediate families Arrangements have been made with uh pt8 for 102 officers to attend the 5-day psychological
04:01:07 to attend the 5-day psychological debriefing stroke counseling course to be held at beak Street T TDU commencing 15th of March 1993 to ensure balance the course will also be attended by a similar number of
04:01:23 be attended by a similar number of divisional Personnel also under training I ask that Arrangements be made uh for the following nominated officers to attend we can see a list of officers there and over the page it looks like you're on the on the reserve list to attend the course do do you see that um yes I do yes did did you ever
04:01:40 that um yes I do yes did did you ever take a counselling course um in order to assist your mentoring duties I I I attended a number of what I would call sessions or seminars but whether they were forly called a specific course um I don't
04:01:56 specific course um I don't recall uh finally this document on the topic MPS 0527 231 which is at b42 of the hard copy
04:02:07 bundle um
04:02:24 and this is a uh note date of the 6th of December 1994 of a meeting between SS managers and mentors meeting itself
04:02:35 managers and mentors meeting itself having been held in November 1994 and we can see um that um a bit below Center you're recorded as as as being present um and just want to look at p over the page paragraphs four and five um all agreed that the scheme was
04:02:46 um all agreed that the scheme was working well and that it needed to be flexible and responsive to the need of field officers h83 remarked how a field officers concerns might be heightened by topically might me might say typically I don't know the activities of former
04:03:02 don't know the activities of former field officers so from a mentor's point of view there was a need to identify such events and provide an extended counseling service at times of of added stress all agreed that there would be value in providing further training package for mentors particularly for the
04:03:17 package for mentors particularly for the new recruits DCI ad di Lambert and DS hn 21 will discuss the possibility of an in-house training package with Dr philicity gibling psychologist at Brams hille on the 20th of December 1994 uh can you remember if around that time a training package was put on for
04:03:33 time a training package was put on for new mentors yes I do uh and um was any training involving a psychologist arranged uh yes that uh person named there in paragraph five philicity gibling
04:03:49 um other than the sort of courses or seminars that you say you went on did SDS management prepare you in any other way in order to help you discharge your your role as a mentor to to undercover
04:04:01 your role as a mentor to to undercover officers um no I don't recall anything else in
04:04:06 else in place um do you think that the uh mental scheme uh was effective I think to a degree but I believe it had limitations uh in what what sense do you think it had limitations um the
04:04:22 think it had limitations um the experience of ourselves um as mentors we may have been ex- field officers but at the end of the day we weren't uh counselors um so didn't have obviously the the benefit of psychologist psychologist training or something
04:04:33 psychologist training or something similar um and I think also the um the rider that in you know you're trying to be sort of a mentor to somebody but at
04:04:47 be sort of a mentor to somebody but at the same time you will report back uh to somebody that that I'm sure for some officers was um a bit of a strange situation I'm not going to take you to the documents but I think you um unless
04:05:04 the documents but I think you um unless we need to but I think um you tell us in your witness statement that you uh uh had a
04:05:05 had a um a role following your SDS tour aside from your role as a mentor of identifying or or or or
04:05:18 mentor of identifying or or or or assisting with new recruits is that right that's right yes
04:05:34 um did you undertake that role as a result of being asked or was it just an organic proactive thing in other words if you you came across someone you thought might be a suitable candidate you'd say something to the right person uh I I would do that if somebody I thought was particularly good
04:05:51 I thought was particularly good candidate I might pass that pass that on um
04:05:57 um yes um did you consider the relationship status of the candidate when you were involved in a recommendation or anything to do with recruitment no I didn't I didn't ask um I didn't go down that
04:06:08 didn't ask um I didn't go down that route of asking a lot of questions if somebody had shown an interest um you know uh then I would just simply pass that person's name on it wasn't for me
04:06:24 that person's name on it wasn't for me to go look at you know select any kind of selection criteria with regard to that
04:06:28 person thank
04:06:35 you um in um please don't specify all right but in your latest special Branch roles I think it's right and you tell us in your witness statement uh that you were a recipient of SDS intelligence is that right yes
04:06:46 SDS intelligence is that right yes that's correct and within your bundle I'm not going to take you to them but within your bundle there are examples of reports authored by John
04:06:57 reports authored by John dyes uh hn1 and Peter Francis that were copied to
04:06:59 copied to you um again yes or no please was the
04:07:10 you um again yes or no please was the SCS reporting that you received in later roles was that consistently of value to you or was there a mix of of levels of value or anything that was not of value at
04:07:16 at all uh yes they were of value yes sorry I asked for a yes or no question and gave you a number of options in my fault yes or no answer
04:07:27 options in my fault yes or no answer rather all right uh and did you ever question the relevance of any of the reports or the information in any of the reports that came across your desk later in your career um no I didn't be they
04:07:39 in your career um no I didn't be they were passed to me because they thought I might have an interest but I was not the primary recipient of some of those reports but they felt that there may have been um issues mentioned in this
04:07:53 have been um issues mentioned in this report which might be of value to me in my in that my job later could we look at a document please that we've already uh looked at earlier today which is MPS 07 31671 which is at B4 of the hard copy
04:08:10 31671 which is at B4 of the hard copy bundle something we looked at um this morning 07 31671
04:08:18 uh and I think I said earlier this was a confirmatory memo of some recommendations previously made by DCI Docker regarding STS Recruitment and the operation and I just want to look this time at paragraph
04:08:29 time at paragraph G says um xsds officers will have initial counseling two weeks after their return to normal special Branch duties were you offered counseling um
04:08:47 duties were you offered counseling um after your return to uh normal duties uh I don't recall being offered um counseling now uh were any steps taken uh by the SDS or special Branch or
04:08:58 taken uh by the SDS or special Branch or the Metropolitan Police Service to check on and ensure the welfare of you and your family after your deployment has concluded um s SDS um managers um I do
04:09:10 concluded um s SDS um managers um I do recall having a number of con uh convers ations with them in the following months uh finishing my deployment basically touch base see how I was getting on
04:09:22 touch base see how I was getting on whether or not I was settling back into um uh no more normal special Branch
04:09:34 um uh no more normal special Branch duties that kind of material um I think um I was also again offered whether or not um you know my wife um wanted to have a chat with anybody but um again I I declined that and does it follow from that that there was there was nothing formal uh in
04:09:51 was there was nothing formal uh in relation to the steps taken by the STS so no no counseling or medical assistance or anything like that no not that I recall no it was um less formal than
04:10:00 than that um were uh any Welfare Services made available to you and your family as a result of your deployment no I don't recall any being
04:10:15 recall any being offered um can we look please at um document it's
04:10:20 um just bear with me
04:10:33 please not in the it's not in the hard copy bundle but it's um MPS um
04:10:35 MPS um 0728
04:10:38 0728 968 MPS 0728 968
04:11:05 uh now this is a copy of uh the special demonstration Squad annual report for 1992 93 dated the 30th of March 1993 which was the report that immediately followed uh your retirement from the field all right uh can we look at please page
04:11:28 11 uh and paragraph 1.12 which uh don't no need to go to it but if we look further up the document it appears Under The Heading welfare and supervision and just what it says at the outset of that text is the
04:11:39 outset of that text is the post-operational program of meetings with officers leaving the field continues and is aimed at Ensure during their successful successful Rehabilitation into normal Duty do you see that uh yes I do following the
04:11:55 see that uh yes I do following the conclusion of your deployment were you part of a postoperational program of meetings I I don't recall being part of a formal um as you say a program of
04:12:07 a formal um as you say a program of meetings no I don't recall it that's all were you aware whether such such a program existed um I again I don't recall that I was aware of
04:12:23 it um whilst we I just want to look at something else it says in this document which is a page
04:12:41 um it's page 19 I maybe yes try 19 maybe we're slightly out of sync no try 20 um can we try 21 thank you paragraph 2.10 all right
04:12:48 right um going to read this to you the Socialist Workers Party has on paper a national membership of several thousand people in practice the number of streets activists willing to participate in
04:12:59 activists willing to participate in demonstrations only amounts to a tiny fraction of that figure like class war it does not in itself pose any major threat to public order however the swp and its proxy the anti-nazi league is
04:13:13 and its proxy the anti-nazi league is nothing if not opportunistic and devotes considerable resour resources to the monitoring and exploitation of industrial disputes public issues and protest campaigns SDS coverage of the
04:13:24 protest campaigns SDS coverage of the swp and ANL although now much reduced still gives access to Accurate intelligence of numerous events and predictions of attendances and the mood of participants the the swp will be
04:13:36 of participants the the swp will be represented at the majority of public order events which occur as will the anti-nazi league if racial or anti-fascist issues are concerned SCS coverage affords a simple and cost effective way of monitoring the strength
04:13:47 effective way of monitoring the strength of other left of center organizations so that the police service has a closer view of oneoff single issue events or industrial disputes on which otherwise there would be little available
04:14:01 there would be little available information um is that an assessment that you agree with um yes I
04:14:11 do did you understand that um your role in coverage of the s WP was considered to afford a simple and costeffective way of monitoring the strength of other left of center
04:14:20 of center organizations uh yet in uh to a limited degree yes but obviously being a member
04:14:32 degree yes but obviously being a member of the swp um I was able to have if you like side visions of uh other organizations and their
04:14:39 activities thank you you just bear with me a moment please
04:14:46 um can we then move um to MPS 07
04:15:01 28957 which is uh sir I think you have this in loose leaf MPS 07
04:15:10 28957 and this is the 1991 to 92 SDS annual
04:15:11 annual report dated around April May 1992 and this was the annual report that immediately preceded the report that we've just considered all right Y and I
04:15:23 we've just considered all right Y and I just want to look at page 23 please if I
04:15:38 can uh paragraph 42 which says the swp retains the ability to mobilize large numbers of its members for demonstrations however these do not normally indulge in Street violence
04:15:50 normally indulge in Street violence preferring instead to sell Publications display banners and chance slogans do you see that yes I do was this assessment uh ever conveyed to you by your your managers uh no not that I recall it I
04:16:03 managers uh no not that I recall it I don't remember seeing that report was it an assessment that you agree with um yes but I would qualify where it says however these do not normally and
04:16:17 says however these do not normally and the emphasis is on the word normally but very much what I was doing was looking for those situations which were not normal and that they would indulge in Street
04:16:30 violence in light of the two assessments of the swp that we've just looked at in the 9192 and the 9293 annual reports do you consider uh that your infiltration of that group on public
04:16:43 infiltration of that group on public order grounds at least at the back end of your deployment uh remained justifiable yes I do why did you say that because again I had seen the pole tax Riot of um
04:16:59 tax Riot of um 1990 um I had seen um again pole tax um activity down in Lambeth um and I I simply believe that uh you know what we do what we were doing um was a a good
04:17:11 do what we were doing um was a a good way of maintaining uh the Queen's peace and uh good public order
04:17:20 were you content with the way that you were looked after uh during your deployment yes I was how did your managers ensure your welfare whilst in the
04:17:32 welfare whilst in the field I mean it was the regular contact um you know twice a week um often telephone contact during the day would take place maybe not with the senior managers but with the managers and I
04:17:47 managers but with the managers and I always felt that if I had an issue um or you know something that was uh I I was coming into difficulty with or might prove difficult um then I always felt that I could go to them and and discuss it
04:18:01 fully were you content with the way that you were looked after following uh the conclusion of your deployment yes I
04:18:11 was did your deployment uh ever impact on your
04:18:23 deployment uh ever impact on your physical health at any stage whilst you were in the field uh no no not that I recall
04:18:33 no did your deployment impact on your mental health whilst you were in the field
04:18:38 no um
04:18:47 for your benefit I'm looking at page 72 in paragraph 244 of your witness statement so right at the back end of your witness statement please
04:19:00 h90 yeah did your deployment impact on your welfare in any way uh I don't I don't believe so no you tell us there that you lost a lot of contacts because you hadn't attended
04:19:11 contacts because you hadn't attended social events is that right right yes that's correct but I don't believe that it had a that was an impact upon my welfare all right uh you spent years avoiding events that you previously
04:19:26 avoiding events that you previously enjoyed is that correct that's correct uh and uh you say while you would not say that your welfare suffered in any significant way you became much qu a much quieter
04:19:38 you became much qu a much quieter individual after your deployment is that right yes I think so
04:19:45 does that uh does what you say in your statement represent the impact that your deployment had on you after it concluded um yes I think that statement uh
04:20:05 stands was there any knock on impact uh on your family given that you became less sociable and and a little withdrawn did that affect your family in any way um I wouldn't say I became withdrawn um I became um
04:20:22 withdrawn um I became um antisocial um I just became a quieter person as as a result of it did that have any effect on your family um I don't believe so no did it stop you doing things they wanted you to do for example or anything like that uh not
04:20:36 example or anything like that uh not with my children and my family um no I don't I don't believe so not after my deployment during my deployment yes there were things I couldn't attend couldn't go to with them um now there's a process um hm90 where
04:20:49 um now there's a process um hm90 where um questions on behalf of others can be put to through me and I'm I'm going to cover some of those topics with you now
04:21:00 cover some of those topics with you now um would you bear with me because it's a mixed bag of topics and we're going to do a little bit of jumping around all right um but um can I ask you this would
04:21:12 right um but um can I ask you this would you agree that for a group to count as a as
04:21:14 as subversive um it not only needed to have the intent
04:21:30 um it not only needed to have the intent to subvert but the capability to subvert in other words uh it pose a a real and direct threat to the state would you agree with that
04:21:40 yes in in view of your agreement with that
04:21:46 would you say that groups like The Communist league and workers power really fell within the definition of subversive groups certainly by I Believe by by
04:22:03 groups certainly by I Believe by by their intent but not by capability but but only by monitoring those organizations was I would I be able to say yes not by they didn't have the capability
04:22:22 if you were able to assess um that um the capability wasn't there was there any purpose in continuing to maintain coverage of groups of that nature I I think there was again still in relation to um public order
04:22:47 can we look at um can you look at please paragraph
04:22:53 paragraph 73 um of um your witness statement please which is at page 23 so page 23 paragraph
04:23:05 73 where you address um bi-weekly meetings and you say main topics of conversation with the with the confliction of uos attending events or
04:23:17 confliction of uos attending events or more usually ensuring that each attendee knew who else was likely to be there so that they would not be surprised if they saw other uos there there was also some storytelling among uos as well as
04:23:29 storytelling among uos as well as discussions about Sport and current affairs we probably discussed operational issues but only in very uh broad
04:23:36 broad terms um what did you mean by storytelling that's just uh um you know General Social contact
04:23:47 General Social contact um you know by being in amongst a group of um officers who had finished dealing with the business of the day C can you remember uh the sorts of topics that
04:24:01 remember uh the sorts of topics that would fall or subject matter that would Beall within what you say was storytelling well it you know we discuss the politics of the day some people would discuss football um you know the Olympic Games whatever was it was it was
04:24:15 Olympic Games whatever was it was it was that kind of material sort of thing that you would probably talk about sitting sitting in a pub or sitting in a cafe with somebody it was it was really social contact social conversations do you recollect whether
04:24:37 conversations do you recollect whether there is any in appropriate conversation no I don't can you rule it out no no I can't and and that's by Judgment of today of
04:24:40 today of course um
04:24:43 course um I asked you a little bit about uh the
04:24:54 I asked you a little bit about uh the two car accidents that you were involved um in did you speak to your managers about those two accidents yes absolutely and being careful please can you remember what advice you were given well on either of those occasions as to as to what you needed to do well I what I
04:25:09 what you needed to do well I what I needed to do had been done at the time which was the exchange of names and addresses um which I had done in my cover name as was as the vehicle was held in my cover name um so those details were provided um from there on
04:25:29 details were provided um from there on um the office then took care of um the issues with the insurance companies um and you know and the insurance companies then obviously in contact with uh the other party
04:25:41 right um You said I think I can't remember if it was in your evidence or in your witness statement but I think uh that criminal activity in your sphere was was nearly always fly posting it was low level was there anything
04:25:58 low level was there anything else not that I recall um but some of the activities as I said disorderly demonstrations or whatever I'm sure if you sat down and looked at you know the the legislation you would find offenses um committed by people there what sort
04:26:13 um committed by people there what sort of level of offense are we talking about low level assault
04:26:20 really were you being careful with names please and again fields of deployment were were you friends with any of the other undercover officers that you were deployed
04:26:32 deployed with uh friends outside of the the unit itself you yes you mean yes I was
04:26:43 itself you yes you mean yes I was yes um being care as to names please can can you remember who you you who are your friends amongst your
04:26:48 contemporaries consult the cipher list if you need sorry consult the cipher list please if you need to take your
04:27:06 time I think for safety purposes it would be better if you wrote down the um Cipher of any individual that you remember in that category thank you sir okay
04:28:03 spe
04:28:40 uh this can't be dealt with by um oral answer I move
04:28:59 on I'll move on from that topic
04:29:12 so um so far as the can that be identified by it is in evidence but it can't be dealt with by answer it therefore needs some means of identifying it as as the answer to your question yes um can we apply our minds yeah of course but don't show the not away no no of course
04:29:32 away no no of course not um just returning to the PO tax Riot please uh um were you made aware or did you become aware that John D was arrested in the course of that Riot uh yes I was can you remember how how you came into the knowledge of that um at one of our meetings um you the the in
04:29:49 one of our meetings um you the the in Broad brush terms that became knowledge uh were
04:29:50 uh were you involved in anything more than a broad brush discussion about John dy's arrest no not at
04:30:02 arrest no not at all can you recollect what you knew about that arrest
04:30:09 arrest um yeah yes but again only in its broadest detail
04:30:21 what what's your recollection as to what happened my understanding it was at the time is now that he had um I think
04:30:33 time is now that he had um I think marbles um in his pocket on the riot I don't know how that came to police notice but I understand he was arrested and what was the significance of marbles did you know uh marbles I think I used by uh activists often to
04:30:48 think I used by uh activists often to throw down in front of uh police horses see thank
04:30:53 see thank you um th those are all the questions I I have for now uh so there is one there's one request I haven't been able to apply my mind to in the time that we've had
04:31:03 we've had yes and I think there's going to be some more we I I think we need to break for 10 minutes do we not I don't think it's necessary to take the full 15 yes I I'll do my best as in yes 10 minutes your day
04:31:17 do my best as in yes 10 minutes your day is almost but not quite at an end please be patient with us of course sir 10
04:31:40 minutes
04:45:09 e e
04:46:00 so I'm grateful for the time um h90 thank you for your patience um hopefully
04:46:13 thank you for your patience um hopefully won't be much longer um can I just start with this was there a reason why you uh attended the uh Street that was uh recorded um as the address of the deceased child whose identity you ended up using it was only to see what kind of a property um that in the vicinity if
04:46:28 a property um that in the vicinity if you like um that the person had been uh brought up in do does it follow from that that you went there for observational
04:46:40 went there for observational purposes not observation not not of the family but of of the surroundings my clums
04:46:41 clums yeah all
04:46:50 yeah all right uh and did you make any um inquiry to ascertain whether the inhabitants of the
04:46:56 the address uh were his relatives or had any connections to him or whether the inhabitants had changed no it didn't
04:47:11 no were you aware of um a an undercover officer called um Rick Clark I I think was before your time yes I do him were you aware of um an incident when he was uh confronted
04:47:22 an incident when he was uh confronted with his uh birth and death certificate yes I was how did you become be made how are you made aware of that it it was a uh it was it was a story that not a
04:47:36 uh it was it was a story that not a story it was an incident that I'd heard about it was the kind of um nightmare scenario you didn't want to happen to yourself um the importance of um you know your cover your cover name
04:47:48 um you know your cover your cover name uh being robust and being able to stand scrutiny can you remember whether you heard that while you in whilst you in the back office or once you were deployed it may have been in the back
04:48:05 deployed it may have been in the back office may have been but it was around about that time can you remember who been careful about names can you remember who spoke to you about that um I think it was hn 109 were you aware that there was a a
04:48:17 were you aware that there was a a possibility that this incident and the use of the deceased child's identity tactic uh was going to be reported in the media as a result of what happened uh no no I
04:48:36 didn't um you told us who Rick you knew who Rick Clark was did you know anything about him in a in a sexual relationship um many years after um I'd heard that um you know he was uh
04:48:50 you know he was uh um how would I say it um you know he liked the ladies shall I say put it that way and he had there had
04:49:01 say put it that way and he had there had been rumors around relationships that he had had but I couldn't put any time scale on them they were all historic to me as I'd heard them then now you say many years after was this was this after your your deployment you concluded and
04:49:12 your your deployment you concluded and when you left after you'd left the SDS after IID left SDS and years later and rumors were rumors before during or
04:49:24 rumors were rumors before during or after your time in the SDS no this many years
04:49:33 later um did you appreciate that engagement in a um sexual relationship um could result in in compromise yes yes absolutely would you say that that was a matter of of common sense I would say that
04:49:57 yes now I know um I know you you're evidence is that you weren't aware of any possible Media or television exposure of the the Rick Clark
04:50:04 Clark incident um but but you told us that uh in your evidence that um you thought uh
04:50:16 in your evidence that um you thought uh the risk of a family of a deceased child the risk of them discovering that the identity was being used was very
04:50:24 unlikely had there had there been the possibility of some sort of media Revelation or exposure or anything like that would you have reconsidered the
04:50:35 that would you have reconsidered the risk um I'm sure we all would have done had that occurred
04:50:50 do you know um whether um a as a as a result of what happened to Rick Clark um uos were given any further instruction or whether
04:51:04 instruction or whether any new procedures were brought in I I've no
04:51:11 idea um can you just have a look please at your witness statement at um paragraph 241 and 242 I'm just going to give you the page reference it's right near the back
04:51:27 end and this is um page 71 and 72 of your witness
04:51:31 statement and now just
04:51:39 um I just want to look at 251 where you said 241 for me say you believe you handled reports from SCS uos whilst you worked in a metropolitan police special Branch role please don't tell us what
04:51:50 Branch role please don't tell us what that role was I definitely did so while was in um room 1820 which is where uh C Squad received sensitive intelligence whether from the SDS or from other government agencies to the best of my knowledge I did not
04:52:02 the best of my knowledge I did not receive reporting from SDS uos later on in my career uh what do you mean and you don't don't tell us where you were posted later on in
04:52:16 us where you were posted later on in your career but what do you mean uh that you didn't buy you didn't receive any reporting from SS uos later on in your career you referring to after room
04:52:30 career you referring to after room 1820 yes after after that time uh the areas of by business I was in um you know I did not receive reporting from that direction had they had no relevance to me
04:52:41 relevance to me uh now room 1820 you go on to say primarily concerned with intelligence rather than evidential material and whilst it appears that a number of reports was sent to you there you say
04:52:52 reports was sent to you there you say you only took an interest if it related to a specific project that you're working on at the time there are two major areas of concern and and one of them is uh you say the investigation into the murder of Steven Lawrence and intelligence that might indicate that
04:53:08 intelligence that might indicate that this crime was committed by an extreme right-wing group or an individual inspired by um that ideology
04:53:22 um want you to focus not on um the murder but on the the Steven Lawrence campaign all right um did you um do you recollect ever receiving any
04:53:34 ever receiving any SDS um intelligence that related to the Steven Lawrence campaign
04:53:44 uh yes I I um I do re because that was that was something that um obviously the uh metropolitan police were interested obviously in the murder um and that question there um
04:53:58 murder um and that question there um whether or not there was uh any extreme rightwing involvement in that so that was so any reporting that concerned that um
04:54:09 um campaign um I would uh I would sometime sometimes see that m material can you remember anything about the the volume of that reporting focusing just on the campaign just on the campaign how how
04:54:22 campaign just on the campaign how how many reports you may have seen it was just very very very rare very
04:54:36 rare yes or no do you do you remember who the source of that reporting was
04:54:41 uh no not specifically
04:54:55 no just revisiting um please John dy's arrest and you told us earlier about learning points that were discussed amongst the the UCO and management can you remember if there were any lessons learned from his arrest um no I don't really
04:55:11 arrest um no I don't really recall you know the um I think it was regarded as a
04:55:14 a um you know rather special um un very highly unusual incident um and again it
04:55:25 highly unusual incident um and again it was we it was reinforced to us that you know you don't put yourself in a position where you're going to get arrested C can you remember whether he was punished or or disciplined or
04:55:38 was punished or or disciplined or subjected to any other sort of action for putting himself in that position no not at all no you can't remember or no it didn't happen no I can't remember anything at all on what you're saying there about discipline or sanction or whatever
04:55:58 no justed in uh Trevor Morris's witness statement um he says about you that you suffered in your deployment and that you collapsed in the field and and you had to be
04:56:07 to be withdrawn is that right no it's not did anything like that happen to you no absolutely nothing at
04:56:21 all and just revisiting finally the the Caravan in skeg NES and I think your evidence landed on there was one night where there was somebody else who shared the Caravan with you that's right was that a male or a female it was a
04:56:45 female and where you concerned that um that puts you at risk of anything happening sharing overnight accommodation with uh a female that you knew from your branch uh no no didn't didn't concern me or I don't believe concerned
04:56:59 her thank you that's all I
04:57:10 ask so then maybe can I just speak to Mr you have go course yes
04:58:01 nothing I can pursue at the moment sir thank yeah so that concludes all the evidence that we're going to hear today I'm sorry you've had such a long day but I suspect you would prefer to have a long day and not have to come back
04:58:13 long day and not have to come back tomorrow to finish your evidence you have finished it you've been a great assistance to me thank you very much